I Survived Theatre School: Recent Episodes
Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina Pulice
We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?
Intro: Titan(ic), Botox, Wegovy
Interview: We talk to star of Severance Sydney Cole Alexander about LaGuardia High School, SUNY Purchase, and Severance.
Intro: NASA needs a producer, Copernicus, Don Knotts, Barney Fife, Monsters, Quentin Tarantino, Django Unchained, Shaft,
Interview: We talk to Lennon Parham about growing up in Georgia, playing quirky characters, getting a taste for theater, soaking up all the non-performance aspects of theatre, improv, Upright Citizens Brigade, Pete Holmes, applying to Juilliard, doing Teach for America in Greenville Mississippi, auditioning for Veep with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Armando Iannucci, callbacks, Playing House, Jack McBrayer, Jason Mantzoukas, Betsy Capes, the 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, Jessica St. Clair, Best Friends Forever, the undeniable draw of having fun.
Intro:
Let Me Run This By You: 12 Strange Questions (TM) version 2.0
Interview: We talk to television star Nick Reynolds about West Virginia, Marshall University, Penn State, MFAs, waiting for 10 years to star on , Search Party, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, being an only child, and almost offending every single cast member of Law and Order SVU, and being a character actor.
Intro: Boz didn't win Powerball
Let Me Run This By You: 10 Strange Questions
Interview: We talk to Kelley Curran about The Gilded Age, having career faith, Fordham at Lincoln Center, The Acting Company, 4.48 Psychosis, Heather Lind, Michaela McManus, Taylor Schilling, Betty Gilpin, Kate Burton, Lawrence Sacharow, Marian Seldes, Roger Reese, Cherry Jones, Fiona Shaw, Oregon Shakespeare, Shakespeare in the Park, Lady Percy in Henry IV, Davis McCallum, Carrie Coon, playing a villain, Telsey and Co., Angels in America, Downton Abbey, Julian Fellowes, Michael Engler, Tim Kubart, and doing a nude scene for millions.
Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.
Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.
Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech, getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.
Intro: swiping left on the poor man's John Travolta, wilderness therapy for the 1%, Ashton Kutcher.
Let Me Run This By You: the thing that you're most afraid of is probably not what's gonna getcha.
Interview: We talk to actor Damian Thompson about immigrating from Jamaica, the University of Evansville, the Florida Theatre Conference, stuttering, PAVAC, North Carolina School of the Arts, asking for what you want, how letters of recommendation aren't always what they seem, gatekeeping, theatre school with no acting classes, Pericles, zoom theatre.
Intro: Emceeing a memorial service
Let Me Run This By You: Fear and the paranormal
Interview: We talk to Tina Parker aka Francesca Liddy about SMU, Blake Hackler, Andre DeShields, Maria Irene Fornes' Mud, Kitchen Dog Theatre, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Robert Altman's Dr. T & the Women, Birdbath play, Perpetual Grace.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
Intro: Nasty neighbors in the Great Unraveling, The Rest Movement
Let Me Run This By You: Rejection
Interview: We talk to Tina Huang about soap opera acting, LaGuardia High School, the Playwrights Horizon program at Tisch, breaking down barriers for Asian actors, Ammunition Theatre Company, Revenge Porn or the Story of a Body by Carla Ching, Bay Area Theatre, Pig Hunt, starting a fake management company, Word for Word Performing Arts Company, Intersection for the Arts, Campo Santo, Amy Tan, 1:1 Productions, Karla Mosley, Jeanne Sakata.
Intro: We are in the Great Unraveling - let's knit a new sweater
Let Me Run This By You: Thin is In, ETHS Drama teacher Bruce Siewerth's abuse of students, iCarly's creator Dan Schneider's abuse of actors
Interview: We talk to Hamilton's own George Washington - Paul Oakley Stovall about family, touring with Hamilton, being fearless, the magic of solving problems behind the scenes, early-age professionalism, quick changes, University of Illinois Urbana- Champaign, almost being a Chemical Engineer, Gary Mills, Don Ilko's quiet championship, Ric Murphy's vocal championship, when Jim Ostholthoff called Paul a supernova, Dr. Bella Itkin's career advice, playing John Proctor in The Crucible and Starbuck in 110 in the Shade, Working by Studs Terkel, Betsy Hamilton, being in Caryl Churchill's Serious Money with Gillian Anderson, Yolanda Androzzo, Minneapolis, playing Jason in Steven Carter's adaptation of Medea called Pecong, the X Files, getting shot in both legs, Matt Scharf, Amy Pietz, Monica Trombetta, performing in Frank Galati's Goodman Theatre's production of Good Person of Setzuan with Cherry Jones, Mary Zimmerman's The Notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci, Journey to the West, working for the Obama Administration, when Phylicia Rashad directed Paul's play Immediate Family at the Goodman and then Mark Taper Forum, KernoForto Productions, Wolf in Waiting with Danilo Carrera, Frederick Douglass, and finding a second home in Ireland.
Full transcript (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez.
2 (10s):
And
3 (10s):
I'm Gina Pulice.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand
3 (15s):
It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
0 (32s):
Podcast situation.
1 (34s):
Cause I was talking to someone else that had the same thing where they were trying to use video and it's like not working. So it's like tech, it's like nothing ever works. Like that's the other name of my solo show. It's like just nothing ever really works. Like we're always like, well, all this to say too that I have come to the conclusion that we are in the time period of in history that I am now calling the great unraveling. Okay, so we've got the great unraveling going on. Now listen, I, I think it's sad, but also the good news is at the end of the unraveling, if humankind has still made it, we can build a new sweater.
1 (1m 15s):
Do you know what I mean? Like, we're gonna have to create a
2 (1m 17s):
Gonna say, yeah, you get, you go, you keep going on that sweater and you know that there's problems, but you're like, maybe it won't look that bad.
1 (1m 27s):
And no, you have to unravel the thing at,
2 (1m 29s):
At some point you say, and there's that term, the myth of invested co.
1 (1m 37s):
Yeah, I know what you mean
2 (1m 38s):
Is, but it's like when you build, when you buy into this idea, Well I've come this far, I might as well keep going and
1 (1m 45s):
Don't keep going. So
2 (1m 46s):
Time investment. Yeah, no, sometimes
1 (1m 48s):
There's like no, there's no telling like how good it can be to just call it, just call something and be like, I'm calling it, you know, like I'm calling it and, and, and there is a tipping point of like, and I think I've told this story about my drywall holes in my apartment. The first apartment I ever had. Did I tell this story? I don't think so. Okay. This is where we are in history. We are at this point where I was, after my dad died, I lived by myself for the first time ever and I got this little apartment and I decided I was gonna put up a quote floating shelf, right? So you need to put holes in the wall and then you put Molly bolts in, they expand.
1 (2m 32s):
Okay. So, but you, but thing number one, it was like a thousand degrees. No, call it. Okay. Could have called it there. Didn't, in my apartment, no air conditioning thousand degrees. Summer, call it, I did not call it. I proceeded two investigate what your motherfucking walls are made of before you do this. Because plaster does not, it does not work out. So I started to drill holes with my molly with my drill. And I'm like, Oh, oh, that's interesting. The holes just kind of gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And I'm like, Yeah, but I just have to keep going. So I kept going and by the end, and then I had holes about the size of a tennis ball in each, and I was like, Okay, but maybe it'll still work.
1 (3m 16s):
Okay, dude, I looked around and then I moved to the shelf around. So I had multiple holes thinking it was the spot in the wall that was the pr. Oh my God, I'm alone. I don't know what's happening. I have a drill. My dad, dad left me like, I don't know what's happening. So I look around and there are chi, I'm sweating. I'm on the verge of tears and there are literally tennis ball holes all over the walls of my studio apartment. And I just think, and I, I then I stopped and I was like, okay, this is, I don't know what made me stop, but I was like, okay, this is insanity. This is the definition of insanity. Because now, yeah, the whole thing is screwed and I have to patch it all.
1 (4m 0s):
It was the biggest lesson of my life of like, wait a second, investigate before you start a project. And it reminds me of your family's project about the trains. Like how one of your kids is really good about planning and out and stuff. I am not that way and I'm learning to be more that way. So anyway,
2 (4m 20s):
Yeah, that's a part that that is I think a big part of maturing. Like I, I have the same thing. I do a lot of little crafty things, sewing and stuff like that. And the, they always tell you, measure twice and cut once. And I've never wanted to do that. And I always had this feeling of like, it'll be faster. Yes. I have to, you know. And then one day I said, Wait, what, what needs to be faster? I'm, this is literally like, there's no deadline on this. I I, there's no reason not to take my time because it's so frustrating when you were, by the way, I remember the term, it's called sunk costs. And I am really susceptible to being like, well, I just gotta keep, you know, I started, started on this path.
1 (5m 5s):
I
2 (5m 5s):
Gotta just keep going. I, I don't know if you have told that story on the podcast. I, when you started to talk about your apartment and your dad, I was thinking you were talking about the phone.
1 (5m 14s):
Oh my god, your dad,
2 (5m 16s):
He
1 (5m 16s):
Always wanted do always. He was like, I can do it. And then he would end up, literally he would, he's not an electrician or a phone repairman. He had no skills in that whatsoever. And yet wanted to rewire my apartment so that I could have a phone jack in my bedroom. And it ended up being an eight hour thing where he was screaming and it was, and I had to buy him tacos at one point. I I it was like really bad.
2 (5m 42s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the, the beau like that could have gone either way, you know, because sometimes the inde fat ability of youth makes us press on and then it works out. You know, sometimes that, that's a good thing. Cuz sometimes when you're old you just know how many things can go wrong and you don't, you know, try it in the first place. But there is something, gosh, we spend so much time in the effort of like doing things to seem like the person we wanna be, instead of just being like, Hey, I, I'm a, you know, in the case of your dad, I'm a very good child psychologist. Like, I don't know how to wire anything because of why would I, because I wasn't trained in this.
2 (6m 24s):
This is not my livelihood. I think men get, I feel like men have suffer with that a
1 (6m 29s):
Lot. Yes.
2 (6m 30s):
If they're not handy or whatever.
1 (6m 31s):
Yes. That they
2 (6m 32s):
Failing their
1 (6m 34s):
Masculinity. Yes. I mean I just think you're right. Like it is this sickness that we have to like, prove, you said it, I wanna be seen as this kind of person. I don't even know for me if it's like I wanna be that kind of person because I never even stopped to ask myself who, what kind of person do I wanna be? So it's like the perception and, and you talk a lot about that, about like managing perception and like who, you know, and especially in theater school and then beyond, but like, who do I wanna be seen as? And that brings up, I don't know if you wanna talk about Des Doona because I have so many things to say. Okay, please. So Gina, I, we've talked on the podcast, I think it's aired Yeah. About Des Doona.
1 (7m 13s):
Like we found, well Gina found and her director had footage of Gina acting at the theater school on a stage in a play. Well in a classroom it was a workshop. Right. So, but it's still a stage. It's a stage. Don't say. Of course. Yes. That's hilarious. Okay. It's a stage. Yeah, I get it. Of course. I was like the, yeah. Anyway, so and then we, by the way,
2 (7m 37s):
Sorry to interrupt you, but students now don't ever have to do that.
1 (7m 42s):
I know students
2 (7m 42s):
Live with theater school now, will never know the paid of performing 95 classroom. But anyway,
1 (7m 49s):
Yeah. And, and yeah, they have like 10 theaters. It's like ridiculous. Okay. So this video is actually good quality. Like I expected it to be super shaky. Allison did a great, she did it right, Alison Zel, she taped, Okay, I assume she had a cam quarter cuz there were no cell phones. So she must have had a cam quarter or whatever they were called then. I think it was that. And there is it's footage of the whole play. It's the whole play. Right. I saw, yeah, I didn't watch the whole play, but I watched Gina scenes and Gina's monologue and it is the year, what year is this?
2 (8m 28s):
I'm gonna say like 95.
1 (8m 32s):
Okay, so 1995.
2 (8m 35s):
Yeah, 95. That's what I think it was. Yeah. Okay.
1 (8m 38s):
Okay. So, so 95 and Gina is playing the, I think like technically you're like the handmade, This the of des your, your Desmos, your Amelia. Right. Okay. Was your name Amelia? Well Amelia in the show. Okay.
2 (8m 58s):
Okay. Cause I watched those four minutes. I didn't go back and then I was gonna look at the script that I forgot
1 (9m 3s):
To, but okay, That's okay. That's okay. And so my reaction watching was, oh, the accent with which you said was crazy, wasn't that crazy? Like, I could understand what you were saying. You didn't sound, I expected you literally to sound like Anna Delvy from inventing Anna, but you did not like it was, it didn't seem put on. And also it was, it, everyone else had an accent too, so it wasn't, But what I noticed was, yeah, it wasn't so bad, Gina, it was not so bad. The acting wasn't bad, the accent wasn't crazy. He looked great. Every, the play was actually really well done. Like, I believed it.
2 (9m 43s):
Yeah, she's a great director. Allison. I'll say all three of the FFA directors, cuz I worked with all of them were really good. Shauna Flanigan and David Mold. I've been trying to get David Mold on the show. I don't, I have, I don't think he's anywhere on social media, but yeah, they were all really good. So I, I know I talk so much shit about like always being in workshops, but at least I had that experience because I've heard many stories of main stage shows directed by, you know, the sought after directors. I mean, Joe SL probably being the chief among them and just like, wasn't that great
1 (10m 16s):
Of a no. Right. I mean, I, So how did you feel, we talked a little bit about it, but like how did you feel? Were you scared to watch and then you hit play and how did you go into it?
2 (10m 28s):
I wasn't, I was super excited because I, like I said, I, I don't have any other footage of myself prior to the iPhone, I'll say. So that was interesting. No, and I, I, I'll say this, I had so much more, I can, I can say with some degree of confidence that I had so much more empathy for myself than I ever have reflecting on any, you know, previous period of my life. It is right. That you would say that you would poit that I was gonna be afraid because any other time in my life, I definitely would have.
2 (11m 10s):
In fact, if I, if I had known that this footage existed 10 years ago, I would've said, Oh, I, I don't, I don't wanna see that, you know, I'm just, I'm not ready to see that. But I'm in a phase of my life where I'm really facing the things that happen to me Memory of when I was in high school. So my little drama crew, we were friends and we, we did pretty much everything together. And one of one among us really, really always wanted to be in television and film.
2 (11m 52s):
And he was like, he had an eye out for that sort of thing. And you know how they have these things that come through these towns, like at the hotel, at the local cheap hotel and somebody's giving us seminar and like how to break into the business. Yes. So he took us to one of these and it was exactly like, you imagine it was a semi conference room in a very low budge hotel with those hotel chairs. And, and this guy, and, and I couldn't tell you a single thing that he talked about except for this. He looked around, he took a dramatic pause and he looked around at everybody and he said, Sin is in, and if you're not thin, you either need to get there or find another profession.
2 (12m 43s):
Wow.
1 (12m 43s):
And I thought,
2 (12m 46s):
I bet you that is why, I bet you that is a big reason why I, when I, by the time I was in theater school, I was not even approaching thinking because of course when I first wanted to be an actress, it was to be an actress in movies. Like Right. You know, that was the goal, which I completely forgot about. It was really only at the end of high school right after this happened and through theater school that I thought, no, it's, it's only theater for me.
1 (13m 19s):
Oh. Because of that
2 (13m 20s):
Wild, I think so I think it was because of that. And I think, I think now look, was I a fearful person who would take any opportunity to close the door in my own face? Sure. You know, it's, I'm not putting it on this guy. I'm more just saying like, Wow. Talking about the sort of like the raban thing. Like if what if you hadn't said that? Or what if I hadn't heard, or what if I hadn't been there? I don't know if it would've been any different, but, so, but I guess the thing I wanted to ask you is do you have memories of like, can you point to any memory that you think might have shaped the direction you went in versus
1 (14m 6s):
Oh my god, you might have gone in. Oh my god. So, okay. So we had a high school drama teacher that was a closeted gay man that Mr. D who was sort of himself a portly gentleman, older he was, there were two by the way, there were two drama teachers at Evanston Township High School, one of whom was convicted of sex crimes and went to jail. And later like, like it was a big scandal, the creator of Lost who, who went to Evanston came out and said, JJ
2 (14m 45s):
Abrams,
1 (14m 45s):
No, it's Lieber not, he didn't do Abrams, it's this guy Jeffrey Lieber. And he came out and said, Hey, this guy who we all thought was quirky and whatever, Mr. C worth, and it was, it's on the, in the news, you can look it up. He was actually a, a predator and this is what happened to me and I'm going to the police. And then people started coming forward, Okay, fine. So it was Mr. Sea Worth and Mr. D, Mr didn't, I think he's passed away, but I'm not sure. And Mr didnt had a, had a wife, but was, you know, anyway, so came out later of course in all the things, but about Mr.
1 (15m 26s):
Didn't, which is his per, I get it, you're persecuted. Do what you need to do. How that's not my beef. Mr. Didn't, So we were doing Auntie Mame and I was Agnes Gooch of course, and my best friend Heather Burns was Auntie Mame. And so there is a scene where Agnes Gooch has to wear a dress of Auntie Maes and Mr didn't said, Well, it's totally not believable that you would fit into address that Heather wears. I don't know how that's gonna be believable. We're never gonna make that happen. And he was obsessed with her and particularly her, her body, Right. As a so gross. So that was one moment where I was like, Oh, I'm always, it's never gonna be, I'm never gonna be the star.
1 (16m 9s):
And,
2 (16m 10s):
And so many tragedies are littered with people like this thing that came out when Jeanette Ural, however, say her last name, wrote her memoir, and then she named, it was kind of funny. I, I listened to that audio book as soon as it came out. And I was surprised when she went, she calls the him in the book The Creator, but then there wasn't the creator of the show. I, Carly. But then there was one other instance, just one time where she referenced somebody that we knew was the creator and she ca she said his name was Dan, so that they later she went back and subsequent additions and his first name isn't in there anymore.
2 (16m 51s):
But, you know, it seems like maybe that was sort of somewhat intentional. So that events all of these people coming forward and talking about their horrible experiences with Dan. And of course he had a horrible childhood where he was mercilessly teased and it's like, you almost have to think like this is all just a bunch of miscommunication. Yes. Like Mr. Mr D was just talking about Yes. He was just talking about how like he could never get into Heather Burn's dress. And what he was probably really saying was like a woman like Heather Burns, even though she was a girl at this point, would never have a guy like
1 (17m 26s):
Correct or whatever and
2 (17m 28s):
Needing to put you in your place
1 (17m 30s):
For whatever. I mean was just so, and I was devastated, but I also was like, okay, but here's the thing here. And then, but there was also a lesson in this, which was, this was so interesting. Later in rehearsals he said, Mr. D said, thank God we have Agnes Scooch. She's the only thing in this show worth watching. Which is also horrible to say, but I was really fucking good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and so I was like, Oh, so this is so weird. Like, I'm not wanted, but I'm saving the show. This is so weird. I don't know what's happening. So I just feel like, yes, these are moments and it does, and when we interview guests, I am struck by the, the, oh gosh, what I, what I'm struck by is, and, and when I watch art now and listen to stories is the brief seconds it takes to destroy someone's life.
1 (18m 28s):
And then if you take it into even more to the extreme, because of course I'm interested in murder, how quickly you can kill someone. And I would say that goes true for emotionally or actually in real, physically kill someone. So it doesn't take long to snuff out a life. It doesn't take long to snuff out hope. And that is what I am left with constantly when our guests talk about the things that have happened to them, I'm like, Oh my God, it takes two seconds that that guy in that conference room took, it took less probably than 30 seconds to destroy all this hope.
1 (19m 8s):
And I, and I, I think that it's like ultimately I wish people could go back and heal themselves. So they don't say things like that. But even if you're not fucking healed, just keep your fucking mouth shut. Like, that's the other part. It's like, okay, I don't expect you to work on your shit, but keep your mouth shut.
2 (19m 26s):
Yeah. It's always an option to not say anything. Like I, I I I I think about that all the time. Like you don't, nobody needs to hear absolutely every thought that's in your head. In fact, 90% of them you should really just keep as inside thoughts because Yeah, because people, people who are careless with their words are usually people who are living somewhat unexamined life. And that's what I'm obsessed with that movie Defending Your Life, because this notion that you could go back and review your life, and I think the point of the movie was more about like, you know, just, just moral decisions that you make. But I would love to have, what if there was a stenographer who, who, you know, kept, kept notes on every single thing that ever happened to you in your life.
2 (20m 12s):
And you could, when you had this fear or this self-loathing that you couldn't really figure out, you'd turn to the stenographer and you'd say, When did I first get the idea that I was both so funny that I could save a show yet so unworthy that I couldn't whatever fit into this lead actresses dress. Like where did that come from? Because maybe that would've allowed you to say, Oh him, oh, I don't care about him. Like he doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.
1 (20m 45s):
Right. It's so true. And I, I, you know, I, I do keep sort of copious notes like on certain people the things they've said because I feel like they're, and I did this with my parents too, because I feel like in a family like mine, there's so much gas and a lot of families gas lighting where it's like, I never said that. And I'm like, oh yeah, on October 3rd, you know, you know, 1990 you told me that I was, you know, I have stuff like that because in my family people tried to make you feel like you were insane and that you didn't, they didn't actually say the things.
1 (21m 25s):
I'm like, this is insanity. And so with my existing family members, oh, I have a list. Oh, I should the conversation ever come up. I am one to remember and I'm a writer. So it's the other thing, it's like dudes and my writing teacher who I adore, kooky, kooky amazing. Terry said, you know, Anne Lamont said, If you don't wanna fucking be written about, don't fucking fuck me over because I'm a fucking writer. That's not really all she said, but you know what I mean? Like, you better watch it, man. People remember, people write shit down and people remember. So don't think you're getting away with any, That's the other thing I'm like, you thought bad parenting and bad, just whatever bosses you think you're getting away with something.
1 (22m 10s):
Oh no, no. Best believe somewhere someone is keeping a goddamn record and when your time is come, it's come. Yeah.
2 (22m 18s):
You know, my favorite thing in movies, my favorite sort of like trope or theme is when somebody thinks that they're about to never see this other person again. So they say some terrible whack shit and then there's like, the camera reveals that actually, or like when the tables turn, that's kind of my favorite. And I think it's because I would love to have that. I would love to have the experience in my life or I do love it when I ever have had gotten
1 (22m 48s):
It. Yes. Which is why Gina, I don't know if you've ever, it's the worst movie, but it is that device, the whole movie, which is The Mirror has two faces with Barbara Streisand. Oh, Mike and Jeff Bridges, I think, and it in her sister's the beautiful, it is the best fucking version of that. And her mom is Lauren B. McCall, the most beautiful woman. And at the end of course she comes into her own and look it's filled with bullshit about dieting and stuff like that. But it is so satisfying because she gets to come into earn her own and put everybody in their place. And she says to her mom the things that I always wish I could say to my mom.
1 (23m 32s):
And it was just so interesting and, and anyway. Yeah, so you need that man, I watch it over and over and everyone is like, why are you wa this is the worst fucking movie. And I'm like, I gotta watch it. It's my movie. It's my movie.
2 (23m 45s):
Yeah. It's your thing. Yeah. And you know, apropo like something so really insignificant having so much gravity. It, you know, it'd be like if, it'd be like if, oh, the only barrier to you getting to follow your hopes and dreams is that you have brown eyes and you know, brown eyes is just not acceptable. And so therefore, you know, automatically seeded out of the population of, you know, is people with brown eyes. And then, and because somebody tells you that and they seem to have some authority, like in the case of this guy, he probably never did anything in Hollywood, you know, because he was talking to a bunch of teenagers in a hotel
1 (24m 29s):
Sacramento. It's in a, in a Howard Johnson in S Town.
2 (24m 34s):
Exactly. But what's, what he's imbued with before I even walk in the door is he knows this is a person who knows. And if you think about the number of assholes you've run in, you've known in Hollywood, and to think every single one of them has probably had the opportunity to hold forth on what, how it works and who's, who's acceptable and who's not acceptable. And how that's just wildly skewed. The the, you know, the the, the future, the course of things.
1 (25m 5s):
It's just pretty, it's just making me, yeah. It's making me think like all of childhood adolescence and young adulthood is about being gas lit over and over and over. And like being told one thing that isn't true lied to. A lot of it is like being lied to because someone made the rules up that aren't even really rules. It is so, it's like a cult. It's like a cult of like, you're not good enough a cult. And now I'm realizing, and you know what's really interesting, where I am finding this is so crazy solace and accountability is on LinkedIn, this is the weirdest thing, but people on LinkedIn now, there's a lot of people, women and creators, recruiters, all these people coming out and saying, This is not your father's or grandfather's professionalism.
1 (25m 52s):
This is how we're doing things now and get out of the way if you cannot par. And I'm like all for it. I am all I, it it, a lot of 'em aren't in entertainment. It has nothing to do with the arts. And I am like for it, it's a lot of recruiters and it's a lot of like, there's this woman who is like a healthcare, online healthcare advocate. She's like brilliant. And she's also started her own business of like telehealth something. Anyway, she's dope. Her name is Lauren. And she says she drops this knowledge and she has nothing to do with entertainment. She's in the healthcare sector. And she's like, No, no, we don't do this anymore. And if you she, her thing this morning was, if a company or an organization says, Can you hit the ground running?
1 (26m 35s):
We really need you to, what you say, especially as a woman back is oh great, what are the systems set up in place to help me do that? What are you gonna do to help me hit the, And I was like, Oh my god, it's mind blowing to me. And I'm like, Yes. Because now we're turning the shit back on the, on the, on the people and saying, Wait, this is not gonna work anymore. You, you, this is not how we do shit anymore. And more and more people on LinkedIn are like, No, this is not how we do shit. And I'm like, oh my God.
2 (27m 5s):
Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I was just recalling the other day to somebody how when I was having, I had that terrible exp well mixed experience of doing that traveling theater. Yes. And, and hating it and calling my dad and calling my mom and being like, I hate it. And my dad always said, Hey, it's just three months you could stand on your head for three months. And it was only like within the last five years that I said, Oh, nobody can stand on their head for three months. That's not, that's not a good, that's not a good
1 (27m 35s):
Thing. No, you'll die. You probably die. Because
2 (27m 38s):
I literally thought that's right, you could stand on your head for three months. I can do this for three months. No, actually you can't. No. And there and, and I love whenever somebody breaks down for me, like in our language and stuff, where things come from and, and the more you know, the more you know that everything comes from just like this very small and select group of people, like our entire worldview and and a group of people that's shrinking and shrinking and shrinking
1 (28m 5s):
By the day. Oh they're dying. It
2 (28m 7s):
Is time to, yeah, it is time to say no we don't, we don't do that anymore. And you don't get to make up the rules anymore. You had your chance and you royally fucked it up. Today on the podcast we are talking to Paul Oakley Stal. Now you guys, I'm gonna go on the limb here, Say something I never say Paul was one of our top 10 guests to be sure We love talking to him. He's so engaging, he's so smart, he's so wise.
2 (28m 48s):
He's been on everything. He's been on every television show and in every play currently he's touring, playing George Washington and Hamilton. He has done it all, Seen it all live to tell the tale. I really, really, really enjoy talking to him and I know that you like hearing him. So Paul Oak
4 (29m 25s):
Nice to be here. You know, as I was saying, saying to you, life has been very, very tumultuous in the past month and you know, this had fallen outta my brain. And when I got the email that it's tomorrow or the email that it's in 36 hours, whatever it was, Yeah. There was a a momentary like I need to email them and say I can't do it. And then right after that I said, it's the perfect time to do that. To do this.
2 (29m 49s):
Oh yay.
4 (29m 52s):
Because things are turning a corner and you know, I want to talk about how I'm handling all this and the theater school, for better or for worse has a lot to do with how we handle our lives, you know?
2 (30m 2s):
Okay, good. I love it. That's a great jumping off point. So I always start by saying, congratulations Paul Oakley Stonewall. You survived theater school. And if I'm not wrong, I think you survived the same one that we did the theater school at DePaul.
4 (30m 16s):
Yeah. Okay,
2 (30m 17s):
Great. Yes, because Gary Mills is the, he mentioned you in in his episode,
4 (30m 22s):
We're in the same class. Yeah. He mentioned me. What did Gary Mill say?
2 (30m 26s):
He said it's so great to, he said it's so great. It was the same week that that strange loop one. And so he said, it's so great to see my classmates like, and I think he maybe alluded to the fact that you didn't have a great experience at the theater school and that, but wow. Have you made so much of your career and like good for you
5 (30m 48s):
The lab. Okay, so wait, I have to like, cuz we were talking about it, I have to say or ask what is making your life tumultuous right at this moment?
4 (31m 0s):
So my father passed away in January of, of of 20, where are we? 2022. You know, since, since Covid, none of the years don't matter this past January. And so my mom's doing okay but I think it has taken about eight or nine months for the actual grief to sit in. And so now I began to realize when I would speak to her and FaceTime with her that she's kind of not doing emotionally what she's kind of not doing well. You know, she's always been a loner. She's always been tough. She was like, I'm fine, I'm fine. And I realize I have to leave Hamilton, I've been in Hamilton for four years and the schedule of any doing a play, we know, but the schedule of a show like that touring and the pressure, I can't be there for her the way I need to.
4 (31m 51s):
And I just had to have that talk with myself and say, this isn't the biggest thing in the world. Your mom is the biggest thing in the world and there is no choice, there is no decision. You will leave and Hamilton will go on and on and on and on and on and maybe they'll ask you back sometime, but you gotta go. So just, you know, accepting that that's what I need to do. And then immediately when the decision was made, other opportunities have come that have made it, I can do these cuz it's easier for me to get to her and make time.
5 (32m 23s):
That, I mean, I feel like that. Yeah, I love that too. And I feel like the decision, it's interesting, there's a like a lot of work that it takes to get to the decision, but once you realize the decision, I'm the kind of person that sounds like you are too. And I think maybe like that you just go in that, that direction. Yeah. And then you make a decision and so, so good for you. And where are you located right now in the country and where is your mom?
4 (32m 48s):
I'm in a beautiful Airbnb in Columbus, Ohio. It's my last city on tour. So I, I really made sure that I went all out on this Airbnb. I would've done this for the rooftop deck of my Airbnb, but I was afraid I wouldn't get the wifi. And my mom's in Little Rock, Arkansas. My parents raised me in Chicago, so I'm a city boy. But as soon as I graduated from DePaul, they moved back south to Little Rock cuz they were just always more comfortable in the south and they were sort of the pillars of our family on both sides of the family. So they needed to be closer to relatives who were getting older back then.
2 (33m 24s):
Okay. So this is in a nice definition that you're continuing that and and being close to your mother to help her out. That's beautiful. So did you always wanna be an actor even when you were little?
4 (33m 36s):
I think if you asked my mother, I just always was one. She, this is, that's why this is perfect timing because the time I've been spending with her, I took a whole month off of Hamilton to be with her and that's when I made the decision to leave. She was just so thrilled to have me home and she would say, Oh, you know, even when you were three we'd go back south to visit grandma and they'd, they'd have like the Easter presentation at church and you would say, Ma, ma, I have something to do. I have something to perform. And she's like, Oh no you don't. You're just seeing the people up there. And you were like, No, no, no, I do. And she said, your grandmother was like, let him go up there, let him say whatever he says, it doesn't matter.
4 (34m 17s):
And she said, you stood up there and you said, Welcome to Easter Day. I have something to say. This is going to be a great day, have a happy Easter day. Like she, my mom still knows the poem and she still knows how she was holding her program over her place. And you know, we, we did it in kindergarten. We did a performance of, you know, like little Miss Horner, you know, the little nursery rhyme characters. And I was, I was Jack in the box and my mom's friend had made me a special costume and I'm sitting inside the box, literally in a box. So I'm in complete darkness at five years old waiting for my cue within the complete darkness.
4 (35m 4s):
I'm sort of adjusting my costume and I feel a hole in the crotch. So I have a hole in the crotch and I know that at any moment it's my turn, they're gonna open the box and I have to pop out and be jack in the box and in the darkness I solved the problem. I, you know, tucking, tucking the thing and holding it under my hand and getting it fixed and then coming up and doing the thing knowing what was messed up. So I had that secret that actors have, I know what's how the machine works behind the curtain. So even if five years old in that smallest example of things, we work in the darkness, we solve problems, we grow like roots in the ground and then we
5 (35m 44s):
Up, let's be honest, because my ass would've been like, I can't this, I'm, I'm Atkins the of my life,
4 (35m 56s):
But I, I think it was the best way I could answer her question of, did you always know you were an actor or when did you know it's, that's the moment where I knew I could solve a problem and do it. And that, that I knew the secret of acting is just being brave enough to find yourself in the moment and not show, never let 'em see you sweat type of thing. And also
5 (36m 15s):
Just the professionalism that you had at five, which was that you were aware that like this was almost a job, right. And to do a good job you had to hide the hole in the crotch. Right. And I feel like that is sort of a, what I would call a theater or acting intelligence that you seem to have clearly from a very young age and good for you that is like a pro.
4 (36m 39s):
Well yeah, and a lot of people depending on you. Right. Your show must go on. It's the show must go on. Yeah.
2 (36m 45s):
Paul, you just made me understand something I never understood before, which is one of the elements of the magic that I always think of when I think of life performance is the secret. I, I never really put that word to it, but it is the secret. Like I know what's going on backstage and I know, and, and after you've done that, when you watch a show, you think, God, that was a fast, quick change. How, you know, where were they all set up? So I have to ask, you know, what is a moment of your Hamilton experience where there was a delicious secret, you know, something went wrong or you know, you solved a problem like you're talking about without the audience knowing,
4 (37m 26s):
Wow, well you're gonna edit all this, right? Because I'm gonna name one but I I just feel like there's a better one brewing that I can't think of. So, so if I come back to it, I'll come back with a better one. But, you know, we have local dressers. So we, we, we do have a wardrobe crew, but each city you have locals that you meet for the first time and you have, you know, you get there on Tuesday, you do sound check and then you open. So you have that little 15 to 30 minutes if you have any quick changes to run through it with the person. And it's almost like you're more reassuring them than they are reassuring you. Cuz you're letting them know, I've been doing this tour forever, it's gonna be fine, don't worry, this is how this goes.
4 (38m 9s):
Just make sure you hold it so it's open with this side and we're, it's fine. Well, we got to, we got to whatever city we were in. And I, I could tell as I was describing the change and running through it that the person was more starstruck to be around Hamilton cast members. And I said, Oh boy, I'm in trouble.
5 (38m 30s):
That would've been me. That would've been me.
4 (38m 33s):
I'm in trouble. I'm in real trouble. So we get to my, my quickest change, which is about a 17 second change after wait for it and to stay alive. I go from Bear Parchment into full back into full George Washington regalia for a scene with Hamilton. And it's a, I'll do this, the sword is being put on me by someone else. I just reach my arms back, you throw it up over my shoulders, turn around the hats there, I put it on, gimme some water. And I go, well the sash, I mean, you guys know what happened? Like the sash was backwards, the hat, she forgot the hat. And then she went running and I was trying to tell her, nevermind, like I'll do the scene without the hat.
4 (39m 19s):
But she bumped into about two or three people. Like, so it turned into a domino thing and I had to then I have no choice because the ham Hamilton's like an opera. It just goes, there's, there's no Harold Pinter moment where you know, somebody can va until you get out there it goes. So I went on out knowing that I wonder what's happening backstage, You know, I hope she's gonna be okay. She
5 (39m 49s):
Probably Peter Pants. I was
2 (39m 50s):
Like high committing Harry care is what I
4 (39m 52s):
She she was gone the next day. Not and not, and not because, and not because Hamilton got rid of her. We don't care.
2 (40m 0s):
No, she was, she literally died of embarrassment.
4 (40m 4s):
She was so mortified. She was so mortified. She left. Yeah. Oh
5 (40m 8s):
My god. Well if you're, listen, I hope she's listening. She might be, because she probably knows, she probably looks you up and said, Oh my God, just this human talk shit about me and how bad I was. And here you are being lovely.
4 (40m 19s):
I've never, Yeah, yeah.
5 (40m 20s):
Okay, so here's the thing. My Hamilton story is that you, you didn't do the LA one, right? You're not in the L Okay.
4 (40m 26s):
I know all of them. We all know each other, but,
5 (40m 28s):
Okay. My Hamilton story is that I just real quick, I did not, I didn't know about Hamilton. I thought, oh, I write true crime and murder. What do I know about Hamilton? My nieces and nephew are all up in it. And I'm like, okay. And then a friend of mine was like, I got you a ticket to la I began to scream and wa at how wonderful the show was that I was seeing to the point where the person next to me that had a seat alone and were in masks and all, and the person next to me moved because I literally kept hitting her going, Did you see how brilliant that is? That, and the lady moved because I couldn't contain myself.
5 (41m 8s):
And this was only like a year ago. And I, and then at the end of the show I left up and started like making sounds and, and I had really good seats and I had the experience of being completely transformed in that, in that, during that show into someone who was like a firm believer in the genius of the show and the actors. And also, you know, I had to put a guy in his place. This, this guy in front of me was like talking shit about how this show wasn't as good as the other tour. He's like, was a Hamilton
4 (41m 44s):
Head, Oh, oh.
5 (41m 44s):
And I said, Excuse me sir. I said, I've never seen it before. And I will tell you, I when I are gonna get into a fist fight if you keep talking, because I couldn't do, I said, Could you go up there and do and move those chairs, throw those chairs around on stage, like these people? And he looked at me like, Oh my god, she's crazy. So I, anyway, the point is I am a firm believer in the power of that show in that it took someone like me who didn't want to see it and actually was like, okay, I'll go to be like, there is something genius happening on this stage, especially as like a Latina lady who has never seen anything about history that involves anyone looking even remotely like me.
5 (42m 25s):
I was like, I'm in, I'm in.
4 (42m 27s):
And it's, it's the power of theater too. It's a well made, I mean, you know, let's break it down and then we'll get onto theater school. It's, we use chairs, a turntable. There's no helicopters flying in, there's no limo, there's no Cadillac coming on stage and special stuff. We, we do make believe, we play, we play make believe with chairs and we change scenes and we changed from the battlefield to this simply by saying we're on the battlefield and believing it with our bodies. And it's really old school. That is what is the genius of it. So it's the power of theater, you're reminded. Oh, that's right. Theater used to be the women went out and hunted and then they came back and made a fire and told everyone about the hunt and we all sat and they wore the skin of the lion and one of them was the lion.
4 (43m 17s):
And that's, that's, that's it. That that's it. And if you, if you, if you give in, if you give into that, then not just as an audience member, as an accuracy, we sometimes you have people who are like, you know, six, seven years on Hamilton has become like, if you get in Hamilton, I'm in Hamilton, wait a minute, you still have to work and get better every day. Again, this is how I survived at theater. If, if there's a good way to circle back to theater school, one thing it implanted in me was no matter how I felt about it when I graduated, as Gary alluded to, I, I had a skill set that always made me want to get better into my dying breath.
4 (43m 57s):
So,
5 (43m 58s):
And, and I would say that that skillset then translate into success in the industry and beyond. So thank you to those skills that you probably came to the theater school with that were sharpened and then allowed you to really branch out and do a millions of things. But yeah, let's, we can circle back. So like, were you, like, were you like a kid that was like always destined for the theater school or like a theater school? Were
4 (44m 23s):
You I think, I think a theater school. My parents were of the intelligence, the, you know, the black intelligence. So they wanted me to be in that world and I in fact got a full ride scholarship to University of Illinois Champaign and Chemical Engineering. So I had that level of, of, yeah, I had that level of analytical and, and math. Math was a thing. But I always understood that math is what's gonna help me in theater. I always understood that it was called liberal arts and scientists for a reason, cuz art and science, the best scientists were the dreamers and the best artists were mathematical in some way about their art.
4 (45m 4s):
Not the best, not, not, not the best, you know, Michael, you know, but if you think about the Da Vincis and the Michelangelos, they were super curious and intelligent and mathematical about the world and into science. So I always wanted to have a balance and I, I knew that I'd go to a theater school, it was just a matter of how would I navigate my parents allowing that to be, it wasn't as hard as you think, but I did, I was savvy enough to know it at that late teenage age. I need to go to university of such and such and take a year to study chemical engineering, take Russian for a semester, take these other things, meet, meet the, kind of, meet the kind of kids who aren't theater majors, you know, meet, meet the actual world out there.
4 (45m 57s):
And so you did
5 (45m 59s):
That. So what did you do?
4 (46m 1s):
Oh, I went, I went to University of Illinois Champaign for a year.
5 (46m 5s):
So my mother went there too. So you went there.
2 (46m 9s):
But, so I have to, I have to interrupt for one second. Isn't this what Tramel did? Didn't he study chemical engineering before he went to, I can't believe you're not the first person we've had on here who started in chemical engineering. In fact, I think you're at least the third or fourth science person who ended up into theater. So like break, break that down for us for people who would, who could never gun to my head pass one course for chemical engineering.
4 (46m 33s):
Well, I mean, I've got to also come clean with, in your first year of that major, you can get all of your electives out of the way. So I was in like a film history class and like I, like I said, I took Russian and I was taking the basics, but I was not into like buildings, rocket ships or anything like that. Not in my first year. But, but, but I also, and I wanted to, I was the most pri and proper kid in high school and I wanted to party a little bit and University of Illinois is a party school and I wanted to experience that social networking and what that was about, whether I'm included or not.
4 (47m 14s):
You know, I met a, I met a guy who was three years older who had let me borrow his fake id, you know, to get into the bar that didn't care about your fake ID anyway. But you know, just those things that you have to do to, Yeah.
5 (47m 28s):
So, so did you, you go there but you had a plan, you were like, my plan is, I'll go. Okay. But like that's so interesting because you also were had the ability to wait. Like it reminds me of Erin bur lying and wait, it's like you're not, you knew, which by the way is my favorite song. And I cried like, oh, mine too.
2 (47m 46s):
Oh,
5 (47m 46s):
Because my parents are both passed and all the things and I'm sort of, Anyway, the point is, you, you had a plan, it's very hamiltones. You had a plan to go to U of I, you went to U of I, but always knowing that you were gonna then take a leap into a conservatory or you were gonna see how it went or what was that?
4 (48m 6s):
Well, I didn't know it would be a conservatory. I knew I just wanted to be in a big city. Like, I'm not even sure I knew what a conservatory was. I, I knew that I was going to not just go out, you know, with a suitcase and a dream on a bus to New York, but I I, I just didn't know what school I was gonna go to. You know, in my mind I thought it might have to be a school that I can pay for myself. Cause my parents might say we're not paying for this. That's a possibility. But when it came time to audition, as I researched the theater school and you had to audition, I had to tell them, this is, I'm auditioning. And so they drove me downtown Chicago with two of my high school friends who had been in the theater program in high school with me, who were running my monologue with me on the way downtown.
4 (48m 56s):
And I knew then that since they were gonna drive me down there, they knew like there's no stopping him. He's so, he's so, he's so conniving. Not conniving, but that's not the word. He's so calculated. He's so calculating that if we tell him no, we'll lose him. So rather than lose, rather, rather than lose him, let's understand that he clearly is going to do this. He loves machinations and figuring things out and he'll do it, but, and if we're not careful, he'll be off somewhere far, far away doing it. Correct.
5 (49m 32s):
Right. You'll go, yeah, you, you'll make it happen one way or the other. So that's some good par. That's actually some really good parenting there. Like instead
4 (49m 39s):
Of it's good parenting. Definitely.
5 (49m 40s):
Yeah. They got it. They understood you.
4 (49m 43s):
Yeah, they had already kind of gone the business route that they wanted. So they were like, ah, let's let the younger one bop around and see what happens. And, you know, who knows, maybe he'll maybe, maybe he'll get his dream crushed and we need to be there for him so he can go back into chemical engineering.
2 (49m 57s):
There you go. Oh, they've well played, well played parents.
4 (50m 1s):
So yeah, they played it. They played it well.
2 (50m 3s):
Do you remember your audition and what they had you do? Like the group part of it?
4 (50m 10s):
Yeah, they, yeah, it was, it was in a building that we never went back into my entire time at the theater school. It was kind of on the corner of Lincoln and Fullerton or Halstead, you know, know that, you know that halted Lincoln Fullerton trifecta. So if you go south along Lincoln, there was this sort of black gates in this building right there. I don't know what it is now, even if it's even there. But they sort of commandeered that building for the day. And between your audition you could be out in the little yard, the little courtyard area waiting for what's next.
4 (50m 51s):
Cause after your monologue they would either say thank you or they'd say, go wait. And so I waited, my parents were off having lunch somewhere with my friends and they called me back and we just had to move around. You know, I don't, I don't totally remember it, but I remember it was my first time in a group situation doing like, you know, what is this ball? Make it something else and throw it to the next person. And that kind of, and that kind of thing. But what I noticed more than anything is I was the only black person in the room.
5 (51m 20s):
What year we
4 (51m 21s):
Talking this? This is, this is 87.
2 (51m 24s):
Yeah. And I'm sure you were the only black person, person in your class
4 (51m 30s):
There. Ended up being there. Ended up being three of us.
5 (51m 33s):
Wow.
4 (51m 34s):
But I, I will say the
2 (51m 36s):
Class that we had,
4 (51m 37s):
I will say, Oh really?
5 (51m 40s):
In our class we had Stephanie, we had,
2 (51m 42s):
We had Stephanie and then you graduated with Erica. But that, Yeah, that was it.
5 (51m 47s):
Yeah. And that was 97 and 98, so we didn't anything. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's a sad state of affairs. Okay, so you noticed that. And what did you think? Like, is this normal for me, you to notice this at this age or what?
4 (52m 1s):
Well, it was, you know, at the University of Illinois, I had seen so many different types of people and in my high school we were about 35% black, 15% Hispanic and 50% white. So I was in a south suburb, you know, so I, I was surprised. But, and I also noticed that these kids seem to have a lot of money in my opinion. And that includes like the Gary Mills types to me. Maybe he didn't, I didn't know, but you know, I would see someone like him and the hair is perfect and the little polo is perfect. And I was like, Oh, I don't, I'm not sure they're gonna want me in here.
4 (52m 43s):
But it all worked out
2 (52m 45s):
Really. You thought that because you didn't come from as much money as the other people that they wouldn't want you in the program?
4 (52m 51s):
Well, I think it crosses your mind because I think it crosses your mind of how am I going to pay for this? Or do they think he can't pay for this? Or is is this, is, is this more elite than I thought it was? You know? Have I stumbled into, Yeah.
5 (53m 7s):
The other thing is, is just that I am, what keeps coming across my mind is like how little progress has been made in the American theater or in America. We, I mean it could get bigger and bigger. I mean we could go out, but like, especially in Chicago, in the theater in the eighties to the nineties, to the two thousands. So little fricking progress in terms of real equity in the conservatories and it's gross. So to hear that, I just think of a, How old were you? Were you like, cuz you had done one year?
4 (53m 42s):
Well, I, no, I had also skipped a grade when I was younger, so I actually, actually this evened me out now.
5 (53m 51s):
Oh, so you were the same age as family?
4 (53m 53s):
Everybody. Yeah, I graduated high school at 16 and then did that year at uni of I, so I was like 17, about to turn 18 in the fall.
2 (54m 1s):
Okay. Just like us.
5 (54m 3s):
Yeah. These are kids and like to look around. Okay, so you, so did they tell you, did they send you a letter? How did you find out from the theater school that you were in? You know what I mean?
4 (54m 13s):
Oh gosh, no, I think it was a letter. Yeah. It certainly wasn't a phone call. It was a letter. Yeah.
5 (54m 18s):
Did you audition for other schools?
4 (54m 20s):
No,
2 (54m 22s):
Just like me. This just like me. So, okay, I'll tell you day one I walked in and looked around at everybody and said, Oh, everybody already knows how to act. Like I thought I was gonna learn how to act when I care. These people had been commercials and movies and stuff like that. So what was your experience when you actually began and started to do the work?
4 (54m 47s):
I quickly realized that technique wise and skill wise, I was okay because I had, I see, here's the thing. I had lived a life as a black man in America, or a black young man, a black teenager, and discovering my sexuality. So a closeted black teenager. I had lived a life of knowing how to bob and weave and how to create something out of nothing. So when Don Iko would say, You're just gonna go bring everything for your bedroom and lay it out and then exist in your bedroom. I could do that. These kids were trying to like do something and I'm like, usually I just sit around.
4 (55m 29s):
I don't do nothing cuz I'm not included in things like that was my safest place to be. Or if you had to, you know, mime or pretend or speak gibberish for Rick Murphy, that was so easy for me. Those things were my safe place. It was when I would get to, when I got to third year analyzing scripts and Dr. Bella who told me, You're so intelligent, you should go into computer science because in her world, if you're black and intelligent, the way you're gonna make it is in the, the computer world or the finance world
5 (56m 5s):
She place for you
4 (56m 6s):
Here. She actually didn't mean it as an insult. She meant it like, you're not this raw hood urban talent. You're so intelligent. What are you doing here? You easily make it in the business world. That's all she meant, meant
2 (56m 23s):
Right. She meant,
5 (56m 24s):
She meant that you have choices, you should choose that as a black, probably as a black man. She didn't see the choice that there was any
2 (56m 32s):
Because so, because so few of us went on to actually make, you know, make their living and the arts. That's the reality of the
4 (56m 40s):
Thing. Yeah, let's exactly. For better or for worse, she also was, she knew the landscape of the business. She was like, there's not a place that I can see. You might get something here or there, but you're so intelligent being cast as the bodyguard or the the best friend, the asexual best friend or whatever that's gonna crush your spirit. But I had a plan but I, in my mind I said, but that's not how I'm gonna be cast as I'm gonna be cast as John. Cuz the high school I went to, I was cast as John Proctor in The Crucible and I was cast as Starbucks in one 10 in the Shade. So I didn't understand what she was talking about cuz the high school I came from, I was the one A as most of us were coming out of high school.
4 (57m 23s):
Sure,
2 (57m 23s):
Sure. That's interesting that, that you, that part of your arc is from John Proctor to George Washington. That's very interesting. But what about the casting when you were in the theater school, how did you feel about your casting while you were in school?
4 (57m 40s):
My third year, oh well second year intros, it was pretty okay cuz every they, you know, their goal was to give some equity there so everyone had a chance to do stuff. And then third year came and I was like, workshop, workshop, children show, workshop, you know, kind of thing. But then something happened, I was in a, the kid show Cinderella where I played just a background almost Mar Annette thing. It was soul crushing and I was like, why am I in my third year? But I'm not actually doing a role, I'm not actually acting. And meanwhile the people you would expect are doing, and it was what Dr.
4 (58m 21s):
Bella was probably trying warn me about. Well, in one of the workshops somebody dropped out cuz something happened in their life. Their parent got sick or something happened, they had to drop out. And Rick Murphy came to me and said, Hey, you've got the time cuz you're in the daytime show. Can you jump into this play in the workshop and do double duty? And I ended up playing opposite Jillian Anderson in Serious Money. And, and Carol Churchill's serious money. So it was a Carol Churchill play, it was really complicated. She was playing has Conor and I was her colleague Nigel Aal. And we were scamming everyone in the play, but only the two of us knew that we weren't even really those people.
4 (59m 5s):
We were, we had put on those gus. And so to have Jillian, who you probably know this from doing lots of interviews, was very ignored and very like treated as the crazy girl in the corner and me, who was very ignored the way the two of us put that together. I knew like, oh there are parts like this out there that I can find there, there are cool plays and cool parts and there's, Chicago is one city, but there's London, there's New York, there's the world, there's Sydney. So that was my key. And then in the fall of my senior year, they did working the musical and I was cast as Loving Al, which I grew to love.
4 (59m 51s):
But at first I ran to Betsy Hamilton and I said, Why am I cast as the black male who's a valet, you know, parking cars. And she was like, It's a great part. But you know, you know, sometimes you're so dumb as a teenager, you know, you're so like, I wanna play this other thing. But nobody in this school can do that role but you and then your other role is a great subtle role. The Mason, it's a great role that has a lot of detail with mine. So you're, you're good. But I had, I had it out with her that night and she said, Well you gonna quit the show or not cuz I need to know what you're doing.
4 (1h 0m 31s):
She wrote us, Well I, when that was presented to me, I said, well no. And she said, Good, so get to work.
2 (1h 0m 39s):
Oh, was she directing
4 (1h 0m 41s):
It? Yeah,
2 (1h 0m 43s):
Yeah. She directed all the musicals. Yeah,
4 (1h 0m 45s):
That's,
2 (1h 0m 46s):
Yeah, we had all the same professors and we've, we've had a few great Don Iko stories on here. Mostly what people end up saying is that he, and this is true for me, he was my champion. He was, I felt he was my only champion there. Did you have a champion or was it Dawn?
4 (1h 1m 3s):
It Don was my challenge. He was my silent champion. He never spoke, but he always kind of wink and a nod to me cuz but he, he again, he also knew how hard it would be. So he wasn't like championing me, it was Rick Murphy for me. Okay. He brought me back after I graduated to help him with the second year classes. And so I'd often sit in on the classes and so that, cuz I, I, you know, my presence would help them relax a little. I was the go between. So Rick Murphy was definitely my champion and Jim Ooff.
2 (1h 1m 38s):
Really?
4 (1h 1m 38s):
Which sounds crazy. I know, I saw it sounds nuts. But Jim Ooff in my senior year, the last week of classes, he, we all sat around in the class, the last 12 of us who were there, whatever it was, not too many. And he said, Sova, you're the surprise guy. You're the, you're the, you're the supernova. And I said, Why is that? And he said, Well, you're black. You came out, you're, you're gonna go at this world in a different way than everyone else. And I'll never forget, two or three of the kids were like, I thought everybody knew he was gay.
4 (1h 2m 19s):
Like, but that, that's like, that's like white privileged teenagers who want some attention. Sure,
5 (1h 2m 26s):
Yes.
4 (1h 2m 27s):
Were like,
5 (1h 2m 28s):
It's like also Hoff also Hoff for me too. He was the one who said, You're, you're the next Lenny Bruce. And I, I thought it was an insult at the time, but now I'm like, oh my God. He was trying to give me like the hood spa, the, the, you know, to go on and know. And so I am grateful. So I think what I'm hearing too is like hearing stuff about Rick and hearing what, what I always am is like everyone's champions look different and they're not always champions to everybody else. And they're, they're, they can be very problematic people for other people, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's so interesting. Some people,
4 (1h 3m 9s):
Whatever. I knew nothing about David Acho or what's the guy who was Bellas sort of
2 (1h 3m 15s):
John Jenkins. Oh
4 (1h 3m 17s):
No, I love John Jenkins. Was
2 (1h 3m 19s):
Mark the
4 (1h 3m 19s):
Music guy? No, no, no. I love Mark Elliot. I just saw him not too long ago. He was an acting teacher and he was very stiff to me. And he was sort of with Bella Bill Burnett? No, no, no. I liked Bill. This was acting teacher Bill was voice.
5 (1h 3m 33s):
I, I don't even remember. Maybe they got rid of that guy.
2 (1h 3m 36s):
Somebody we don't know. Yeah,
4 (1h 3m 37s):
He was there for a long, long time. But I think he may have left. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, there were some teachers that I never got, so I never really knew what their style was even I never got to know David a Coley. I never got to know some of these people. But Rick Murphy noticed in me that improv or thinking on my feet was, was for whatever reason, something I did well. And when I did the scene, it was never the same twice. Cause I was always alert. And I think that goes back to surviving as a black man in America. You have to be aware of what's going on around you. And so he helped me to, he helped me to feed that and, and help it grow.
2 (1h 4m 19s):
What's your, a few of your characteristics that are coming across to me in addition to this awareness and sense of self is also maybe your lack of fear. You didn't, you weren't cowed at the audition or early on in terms of, you know, your your talent level. Do you attribute that to your parents instilling kind of a, a sense of bravery and confidence in you? Or did you discover it truly on your own?
4 (1h 4m 48s):
I think it's twofold. I think if, I don't think they instilled it as a matter of purposeful installation. I think I watched them. So I witnessed it. And so you absorb what's around you. I watched my mom work a full-time job and come home and cook you, I watched that, I watched my dad, I watched it and I watched them deal with racism. I watched them save, save, save, save money and continue to move us to a different house every five or six years it would be bigger. Like I, I watched what they did, but I think also just, you know, watching TV and not seeing anybody who looked like me and so not going into auditions and situations with a sense of, I'll never get it.
4 (1h 5m 32s):
But going into situations like what do I have to lose? Oh yeah, it's, it's not, it's pro it's probably not gonna be me, but I'm sure gonna show them that they need to think about it.
5 (1h 5m 45s):
Right? Yeah. Right. And that, and that it becomes a mission to not prove yourself, but also to be yourself boldly and allow the opportunity at least to be in the ether that you could play that part. That you could do it if they were more open minded or they were more, instead of being like, how can I change so that they feel comfortable? It's like, how can I just do my, do my work, do the art?
4 (1h 6m 14s):
So Right. I I, yeah, I never tried to be, I never tried to be Gary Mills or Darren Boucher or I never tried to be that. I just said, well, if I'm playing Judas or if I'm playing Jesus in Jesus Christ superstar, this is how it's gonna be.
5 (1h 6m 33s):
Paul, how was your showcase experience? Did you guys, did you go to New York and la How was did you go, What happened?
4 (1h 6m 40s):
We only went to New York and, you know, it was fine. It was one of those things where everybody got a lot of attention and I got one or two nibbles. But, you know, I wasn't too worried about it because in April of senior year, myself and Yolanda and Zo, the other black female in the, in my graduating class, we drove up to Minneapolis and auditioned for this black show. This, they were doing a Caribbean adaptation of Madea called Pong by Steven Carter, you know, small regional theater.
4 (1h 7m 21s):
But she had researched it and said, we should do this, we should do this, you know, we should start our careers. Let's do this. So I had a car too, and she didn't, so we, you know, we drove up and it was more for her to audition, but I said, Well, since I'm here I might as well audition. Well, we got cast. Woo. So, so going out of, you know, for the last two months of school, we knew we had rehearsals starting in some show in Minneapolis, which just felt cool even if we didn't know if it was gonna be cool or not. And so the the cons, what is it called? The, that you just said The thing in New York? No, the thing in New York, the showcase it, it did, it didn't make or break me because I was like, yeah, I'm starting work soon.
4 (1h 8m 4s):
But, so I got some, I got some half nibbles from some agents, but it wasn't a, for me that didn't do much.
5 (1h 8m 13s):
Yeah. But were you, that that show, is that what Oh sorry, go ahead. Fu No, no, that's exactly what I was gonna say. So you, you, you went and you did the show and, and really when did you feel like, okay, like I'm gonna, or maybe you didn't, like I am an actor that's gonna make money being an actor, I can do this as a, as a, as a career.
4 (1h 8m 36s):
Well, that's a bit of a story. So I get there, the rehearsals and I was cast in a supporting role. And then the, the theater, they had a, they had a show from last season that was going to the National Black Theater Festival. And the actor who was playing the lead in the show I was in, he was the lead in that show and they wanted him to go to do the show Pill Hill, I think it was called, Down in North Carolina. So they came to me and said, Would you move up to the role of Jason, you know, Jason and Madea basically, and I'm a recent college graduate who doesn't know anything. And I said, Yeah, sure. So, so, so I start rehearsal and it's not going well.
4 (1h 9m 23s):
It's a lot of work and it's, it's, it's overwhelming. And the woman who's playing Madea is trying to get me to hang out and party and relax. So she's, after rehearsal on the sixth days, she says, Come on, the cast is going out for drinks. Lead your script. Please leave your script. You're always in your damn script. Come on out with us. And I said, No, just drop me off of the apartment. They had me living with her actually and her boyfriend until they got my housing ready. And I said, No, I'm not gonna go out. So I go home, she drops me off and her boyfriend was kind of a, a narrowed you well guy. And I'm on the phone actually with Jillian Anderson who had gone out to LA and was on some cop show that she thought was really dumb, called the X Files that was never gonna go anywhere.
4 (1h 10m 6s):
And she's telling me about how stupid it is and she's gotta wear a gun and her underwear and her panties and blah. And I'm like, Well at least you're working girl, don't worry. And I said, But Jillian, I think I might get fired. And she said, Well, you know, you might get fired, but I got fired from a job, an Allen Aborn play and you know, you, you move on. So keep working and if you get fired it's gonna be okay. And right then a knock came on the door of the apartment. And so I got off the phone with her. Long story short, some people had come looking for this, this boyfriend guy, and without going too much into all the minutia of it, we'll go have a beer one day and talk about it. They broke in and shot me in both my legs and they left me for dead.
4 (1h 10m 48s):
Wait a minute,
5 (1h 10m 49s):
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What the fuck they shot in your legs?
4 (1h 10m 56s):
Well, they shot through the door. So they didn't know where they had shot me. They, they thought they were shooting me in my head and my back, but I heard the hammer of the gun click. So I jumped away from the door and when the shots came through, they just hit me in my legs. So, you know, know fast forward to being, you know, re you know, I woke back up when the paramedics put the thing on my face and an evening of surgeries in the hospital and tined, you know, my mom flew up and I, I could not walk. And they said, Well you're never gonna walk again, but you, you may walk again but you're certainly never gonna dance again and you'll, you'll have a cane probably.
4 (1h 11m 40s):
And I had, I developed blood clots. It was just the whole thing. So now I was, now I was a 21 year old black gay closeted and I got addicted to the Coumadin and the painkillers. So I was a 21 year old black gay closeted drug addict in a wheelchair.
2 (1h 12m 2s):
Wow. So what happened? I'm glad you could laugh about it. I, my jaws still on the floor. Oh my god.
4 (1h 12m 12s):
So, you know, I just started doing the work to get better. I was like, I'm not gonna sit in this chair forever and I'm, I need to stop taking these pills and I need to just deal with the pain and work through it. And the city of Chicago was sort of waiting for, hoping I would live and hoping I would come home. And some of my classmates had come up to visit Matt Sharp and Amy Petes had come up to visit and Monica Char Beta I think came up. And so when I finally went back to Chicago, I did have the cane and a bit of a limp, but it was getting better every day. And I had this sense that I was going to be okay. Someone had dropped out of Frank go lot's production of good person of swan with Cherry Jones and they just had to replace one Yeah.
4 (1h 12m 60s):
At the Goodman. And they had to replace one like side character, didn't even have any lines. It was just a street hustler kid who was just filling out the ensemble. But Frank had a plan that throughout the course of the play, you'd see in opposition to Shante shoe TA's transformation, this boy would slowly transition into a woman. So I did have a sort of silent film arc through the play, which was right up my alley. I love that shit. So they gave me the part, those dummies. And the next thing I know, I'm at the, I'm at the Goodman and I'm doing this stuff.
4 (1h 13m 40s):
Did you
5 (1h 13m 41s):
Wait, did you have to audition or they just asked you to
4 (1h 13m 43s):
Do it or? It was, it was, it was an audition cuz they hadn't seen me and they didn't know how I would look. They didn't know like, is he really injured? Is he really, how does he look? But when I, so they, they reached out and said, Would you like to come in? Can you, can you come in? And I'm like, I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can come in, I can come in. And I showed up and Michael Maggio just like hugged me. Oh my God you're okay? And I said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's okay. I have pain but I'm okay. And they had me do a monologue of some other character cuz my character didn't have any lines. It was Jim True's character Wang or whatever. Yeah. And he said, Okay Paul, you know what we're not doing doing all this bs.
4 (1h 14m 24s):
I want you to walk right up to the office you're hired cuz they start rehearsal like next week they, they needed to just get it done, you know. And I took it and I never looked back. So then Mary Zimmerman was a mentee of Franco Lotti. So of course she came to see it and said, Who is that athletic strong? And Frank goes funny story about you thinking he's athletic and strong, he's just come through this thing. And she said, Well can he read difficult text? And Frank said, I think so he doesn't have lines in this, but he strikes me as a really intelligent kid. And she had me just sit across the table from her and reads from the books of Leonardo DaVinci and she gave me the part.
4 (1h 15m 7s):
And then I was in notebooks of Leonardo DaVinci, the original cast and that was it.
2 (1h 15m 12s):
That is
4 (1h 15m 12s):
Amazing. And then, and then that was it. Yeah. That was when I said that thing I thought about Bella, that that there will be these kooky parts that will be, for me, I can find a world where next thing I'm doing journey to the West and I'm playing a, you know, invincible sea horse dragon, the creature. Like these are the things I knew I could do if given the chance.
2 (1h 15m 35s):
That's amazing. I, I I, something that's occurring to me as you're talking to is that one of your superpowers is, you know, and I wish all young people who are going into this profession could somehow absorb this quality, but of course you can't, which is that you never waited for anybody to save you or to, you know, shepherd you. Like you just from the beginning it sounds like, just always knew that it was up to you and that there was nobody was gonna come in like cast a magical spell on your legs. By the way, was somebody in violation of an equity rule when they put you in housing with this actress and her boyfriend?
4 (1h 16m 16s):
Yeah, but it was 1991. I see. And, and, and the housing was being prepared. So, so it was a temporary fix. In fact, in fact they were like, it's a hotel or you can stay in the guest room of your leading lady and you guys get a chance to sort of be around each other. He just happened to be living with her and it, they didn't understand that that was a thing.
2 (1h 16m 40s):
I see. Okay. Well
4 (1h 16m 41s):
That's, And I and I was not able back then to speak up and say, I need to get out of this. I I, I have a feeling he's a bad guy. You know, that, that's not gonna wash. That's not gonna wash. Right, right. You know, they're, they're trying to save money, you know, you know.
5 (1h 16m 58s):
Question, my next question is, so like, just being mindful of time like that we have with you, what would you say, like, it's interesting cuz you kept saying, you keep saying like, oh, then I knew and then I knew and then I knew. So are you still discovering like what you wanna do as an artist, where you wanna go? Like you're going through this tumultuous time with your family and you've decided to step back from playing George Washington and Hamilton. What is happening in, where do you wanna go? What do you wanna do?
4 (1h 17m 27s):
Oh, well, I mean, you know, I had stepped away from, I've stepped away from acting before I, I went to work in politics in 2007 when everybody was talking about it, but nobody was doing it. I left the business and went to volunteer for the Obama campaign and next thing I know I got hired as an actual employee and I spent eight years traveling the world. Here I am in New Deli in a, in a market of artisans with Mrs. Obama. I'm like, what am I doing? I'm like, when is someone gonna figure me out? You know, I'm in Copenhagen with the Queen of Denmark and we're hanging out and she's like, Do you wanna smoke a cigarette? I'm like, I don't smoke, but oh my God, this is so funny. Like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm in these situations where I couldn't have written a better script for me to perform my duties working for them.
4 (1h 18m 17s):
We're in, so we're in South Korea, we're, we're everywhere. So when that came to an end or when it was coming to an end, I was writing a lot of plays and Felicia Rasha had read one of them and that's how she picked up Immediate Family. And that went to Goodman and Mark Taper. And so I was kind of in that playwright mode. So I bounce wherever I like, I'm going back to work for Mrs. Obama after this
2 (1h 18m 42s):
By
4 (1h 18m 42s):
The way. Cause one, once you're in the family, you're always in. And I think she has a new book tour coming and it'll be a chance for me to help out. You know, it's not the same thing. She's not First Lady anymore. It's, it's more relaxed a little bit. But that's there for me to do and keep myself busy and then I can spend time with my mother.
2 (1h 19m 4s):
That's awesome. So it's good by the way, way to seamlessly work in your experience in the Obama administration. I was sitting here thinking like, we don't have enough time. I'm not gonna be able to ask him about it, but,
4 (1h 19m 14s):
Well I mean that's actually what has helped me with Washington the most.
2 (1h 19m 20s):
Of
5 (1h 19m 20s):
Course. So if someone were to say to you, cuz there's a lot of conservatories are like, you only are an actor, you must be an actor. What is your take on, if some, if a a person comes to you and say, Hey, I have interest in this, in that, what should I go to a conservatory where they're telling me like, you are an actor and that's it. What do you, what would you say about that? Because I wish that I had had more something to do, more things as a young,
4 (1h 19m 48s):
Yeah, I would say beware and go running from anybody who tells you you can only be one thing. I mean one thing that happens with Hamilton a lot is afterwards, there are a lot of young people who wanna meet us and get a play Bill signed and the cast pre covid, they would make fun of me cuz as we went down the line signing programs I would take the longest. So I, I just decided to always wait and go last because I wanna talk to these kids and say especially the young girls who are dressed as Eliza or Angelica, Peggy. I'd say, Oh, that's a beautiful outfit you have on. What do you think about Aaron Burr And nine times outta 10, Oh he's actually my favorite.
4 (1h 20m 30s):
Or Alexander Hamilton's actually my favorite. So why aren't you dress as them? Well my mom and dad and the mom and dad are standing right there and they sort of try to chime in. I'm like, I'm not speaking to you speaking to this intelligent 10 or 11 year old who is telling you she wants to be Aaron Burr. And I will say, well you and listen, we're not talking about sexuality or gender or anything. We're just talking about access. We're talking about access to what someone's told they can do or not do. So I really, you know, one of the saddest things about leaving the show is I, I won't have as often the opportunity that I have to tell young people, please be well rounded.
4 (1h 21m 11s):
I do ask them, what do you wanna be? And when they don't know, I say, Oh, thank goodness you don't know cuz you're way too young to have made that decision. You need to do eight or nine things. Do them all a hundred percent and the thing will find you.
5 (1h 21m 25s):
Ah, I wish someone had said that to me. That's beautiful. You know, and the other thing that I'm Paul, that I'm really aware of is that as you go through the world, whatever you do, Paul, you are going to be that ambassador for young folks, whether it's with Michelle Obama or the cast of Hamilton. So I feel like you, you are the kind of artists and the kind of human being that whatever environment you are in, you're gonna be an ambassador for choice and, and, and well roundedness. So I, I have no doubt that wherever you are on the Obama tour book tour, you're gonna be there and people are gonna be drawn to you because it's about you. It's not necessarily about the job you're doing.
4 (1h 22m 6s):
Well. Well you gotta be careful with that. I was talking to one of my friends who, you know, I told him I'm going back out with her and he's so excited. He's like, Oh, you know, you've upgraded your clothes and you're gonna just be, I'm like, when you're working in a situation like that, the the goal is, and the the dictum is to not stick out. So it's that fine line of where do I find my, in my free time to do that. But when I'm at work with her, it's this, it's this thing of like you are, which is a fun acting experience experiment for me. I love being the press guy who's that's what I'm doing.
4 (1h 22m 49s):
Yeah, yeah.
5 (1h 22m 50s):
You can do it and also you can do it. Yeah. I mean it's not, but I just think you're the kind of person that people are gonna find you in an elevator and be like, Hey, how do I, how do I do what you do? Because I, I can sense that. Or like, how do I do this? I can, Yeah,
4 (1h 23m 5s):
Yeah. That happens quite a bit.
2 (1h 23m 7s):
So I, I wanna have an opportunity to ask you about your production company and some exciting stuff you've got going on there. So please tell us about,
4 (1h 23m 17s):
It's called Kernel for to productions. Kernel for to is an esper to word that means core power. And I got a few short films out that have done very well on the festival circuit. A third one is in posts, it's almost Ready. And a fourth one we have just started entering festivals and it's called Wolf and Waiting and it's a spy thriller where I'm co-starring with Danila Carrera, who you may ask. Well, he's the most famous television actor in Mexico. And, and he's a model as well. And he's the most famous actor in Ecuador, which is where he's from. But he works mostly in Mexico.
4 (1h 23m 58s):
And how did I meet him? You may ask. I I was on tour with Hamilton and I play a lot of tennis and I got hooked up with this tennis pro at this local place as, as we're on the road, where was that? Naples or somewhere in Florida, A year and a half ago, two years ago. And the Tennis pro, he enjoyed hitting with me and he said, Oh, I have a 17 year old daughter who'd love to see the show. And I said, Yeah, I'll help you get tickets, no problem. And he said, you know, you're an actor, you know? Right. So, you know, I have a nephew who's an actor and you should get in touch with him cuz he wants to branch out and, and do more interesting things.
4 (1h 24m 39s):
This nephew is Danila Carra. I, I, I said, yeah, and you know how it is y'all. I'm like, Oh, you have a nephew that wants to be an actor or is an actor okay. And he's like, Yeah, he wants to do some English language stuff. I'm like, Oh God, okay. So he gets me in touch with him and I Google him and I was like, Oh. And I'm like, he's not gonna wanna work with me. But he has become like a brother to me. He is now. I mean, wait till you see this film, You know, it's crazy. So that's where we're going with the production company. I'm trying to uplift others who are doing projects, my friends who are doing short films and silent short films.
4 (1h 25m 23s):
I'm trying to put them all on my website and create kernel for to.tv and kind of create my own network where people can pay and come and watch my stuff.
2 (1h 25m 32s):
Oh, that's a great idea. I love that. Yeah. And because we have like two more minutes, I just wanted to ask you, you have this really interesting connection to Ireland and I was wondering if you could tell us about that?
4 (1h 25m 43s):
Yeah, yeah. I'll quickly tell you it. I hate to have to do it quickly. No, you don't have to do quickly.
2 (1h 25m 49s):
If you, if you have a few minutes, that's fine. I'm just, I'm just saying
4 (1h 25m 53s):
Yeah. My voice, my, yeah, my voice lesson is gonna call soon. Okay. So I, I, when, when the Covid shutdown happened, I got squirrly and I wanted to go somewhere. And this woman who was in a writing group with me, she lived in Ireland, so she would be zooming in from Ireland and she said, Paul, do you know about Frederick Douglas? And I said, I'm a, in my mind, I said, I'm a college educated black man, I know Frederick Douglas. And she said, Yeah, did you know he spent four months in Ireland when he was escaping for his life because his former slave owner came after him when he released his autobiography. And I'm like, What? No, he didn't what you're talking about.
4 (1h 26m 34s):
And as I researched this, I've realized that's where he wrote some of his most incredible speeches cuz he went over to Europe running for his life and found a freedom. You know, the people on Ireland were looking at him like, Oh, hey, what's up? Like they weren't, and he'd never experienced that. That white people could actually just be like, Oh, we, we judge you based on who you are. And that's when he became who he became as an international orator and leader. And when he came back, he was like, I'm going to Abraham Lincoln's office. I'm going to, I'm, he became who he became. So I decided I wanna write an eight episode limited series about this. And I decided I need to go to Ireland to research and I'm just gonna get there.
4 (1h 27m 17s):
And I did. And I met these two young guys who are, who were opening a music institute for young students, diverse students. And now I've become a board member of that. I was all over rte I've got producers interested in helping me do this. So I'm actually going back in March to do some concerts at the new music hall, the Lark that's opening at the, in the Irish Institute of Music and Song. I traveled the whole country to from co to Belfast because that's where I just followed in Frederick's footsteps. Wow. And Ireland's become a second home.
2 (1h 27m 53s):
Oh, that's so beautiful, by the way. What a grand tradition that also James Baldwin and Nina Simone, all these people have had to to Europe. Right. To find, to just feel like a regular person.
4 (1h 28m 4s):
Yeah. And you know, y'all, I really feel like that's what's coming for me. I I have had that experience. I went and lived in Stockholm in 99 and 2000, but this Ireland thing is, you know, I've been there for, I was there for three months and then I went back for another month.
5 (1h 28m 22s):
Yeah. You're gonna live there in some point for longer.
4 (1h 28m 24s):
That's, I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not put down my country. I love my country, but I'm feeling like there's also a chance to do theater there at the Abbey in Dublin. And there's, there's just an opportunity to work over there.
2 (1h 28m 39s):
Yeah. And it's good to have options, honestly. You never, you never know what's gonna happen here. Thank you, Paul. This has been great.
5 (1h 28m 49s):
It's brilliant. It's, you are, I rarely feel at the same time comfortable around someone and yet also wanting inspired to do better. So thank you for that.
4 (1h 29m 3s):
Thank you. Well, let's all thank Mills for mentioning me.
5 (1h 29m 6s):
Yes.
3 (1h 29m 20s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PCI are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina pci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Inc, please visit our website, undeniable riders.com. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Boz is buying a house!
Let Me Run This By You: 47 year old Gina saw 19 year old Gina doing accent work and Mark Rannin owes me an apology.
Interview: We talk to playwright, director, and USC alum Ryan Wagner about self-diagnosing as a bad actor, protecting your joy, Miguel Arteta, filmmaking, his short film Every Other Week, Growing Up Hip Hop, being a PA, and keeping a cohort of friends to make films with.
Intro: Even our lungs need a sense of purpose.
Let Me Run This By You: Boz is buying a house!
Interview: We talk to actor and documentary filmmaker Cullen Douglas about AMDA, Florida School of the Arts, Southeastern Theatre Conference, Tyne Daly, character actors, Jason Priestly, Patricia Crotty, Our Town, Lenny Bruce, Dick Van Dyke, investigative journalism, reusing caskets, David Carr, Deadwood, playing Bilbo Baggins, being pen pals with Andrea McCardle, singing If I Were A Rich Man, The Pirates of Penzance, Bye Bye Birdie, Robert Sean Leonard, Billy Flanigan: The Happiest Man on Earth, Shonda Rhimes, Twin Peaks, Grey's Anatomy , Barry, Bill Hader, documentary filmmaking, The Humanitas Prize, Private Practice.
Toxic showrunners, giving feedback, halitosis, The Taking of Pelham 123, Victory Gardens Theatre, Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Intro: Image management, Glenn Davis, King James, Odd Mom Out, Hamilton, Abbott Elementary, The Method
Let Me Run This By You: Dads and pornography, Secrets of Playboy, The Girls Next Door, Stranger Things.
Intro: Nightmare, revisited.
Let Me Run This By You: Gina's petty bullshit.
Interview: We talk to the co-Artistic Director of Steppenwolf Theatre, Glenn Davis, about the Stratford Festival, King James, You Got Older, The Christians, being a producer with Tarell Alvin McCraney, Anna D. Shapiro, Audrey Francis, Rajiv Joseph, Alana Arenas, coming from a political family, pay equity, DEI, Seagull, Downstate, regret.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Polizzi. We
1 (11s):
Went to theater all together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
3 (16s):
Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it
1 (20s):
All. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Yeah, because the Handmaid's tale came true since we last talk.
2 (36s):
Oh my God. I was just preparing to say to you my new favorite party question, not that I ever go to parties is what country are you going to move to when they ask you to be a handmade? Because I think the trick is the timing, you know, like there's going to be a point of no return,
1 (52s):
Right? You could
2 (54s):
Go to,
1 (54s):
Yeah, I guess I could, I feel like things might be worse there in some ways, but not eventually. Maybe not like now you're right. It's a timing thing, because right now it might be worse. But in about, within a couple of years, it could be better. So you're right. It's a timing thing. So maybe the idea is to like get passports. Well, the problem is when you get one passport, you have to turn in another, I think, unless you're a secret double agent and doing illegal things, like, I don't know that you can be a duel. Oh, I'm confused. We need, that's what we need a guest on that knows about passports.
2 (1m 32s):
Well, I don't know anything about passports, but I will say I, the reason that I would be allowed to have dual citizenship in Italy is because I can prove, you know, that my ancestors came from there. So I probably the same thing is true for you
1 (1m 50s):
Only
2 (1m 50s):
Have to go back one generation immigrants lady
1 (1m 54s):
Over here.
2 (1m 55s):
Right?
1 (1m 55s):
Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I, yeah, I, there are a lot of, I mean, this whole thing has been this whole overturning Roe vs. Wade has been, it has been horrific. And also because I've come from things from this and as you do too, like the psychological lens is trauma lens. I'm like, okay. The reactions, especially on social media have been wild. So what I'm noticing is it's even more hand Handmaid's tailie in that people then other women aren't then sort of policing other people's responses to this.
1 (2m 37s):
Meaning people are like, well, I don't know why you're shocked. So instead of saying, yes, you can have your reaction. People are mad that women are shocked. Other women are like, well, what did you think was going to happen? We, and I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is part of the deal. Like let people have their responses, let them, so I am not shocked, but that does not mean that it hurts any less or that it, it is my job to tell someone that their outrage is not justified or not appropriate.
2 (3m 15s):
I mean, that's like, that's like telling a little kid, well, your dad hits you every time he gets drunk. What's why are you so surprised? You know, it's like, well, that doesn't make it hurt any less. That doesn't make me any less fearful. The feeling that I have in my body right now is the feeling that I had on election night in 2016. You know, I don't know if I ever told you my story about that, but just like every other reasonable person in the world, I completely assumed Hillary Clinton would win. And I wore my little pants version of a pantsuit to vote. I came home and I had, I didn't invite anybody over, but I made, I had like snacks, like it was a super bowl. And I put up a big piece of paper like that paper we wrote on when we were doing our, our TV show and with a map and I was gonna, I was marking the electoral votes, teach my kids about the electoral college.
2 (4m 10s):
And it's like, and it's just starts going, okay, well, that's not, that's not too bad. And then, and pretty early on, I realized what was happening. And I became immediately exhausted. And I went up to my bed and I fell asleep. And in the middle of the night, I rolled over to check my phone and I saw the confirmed, the worst had happened. And now I have that feeling again. I have that feeling of like, there's no hope.
1 (4m 40s):
This
2 (4m 40s):
Is, this is all bad.
1 (4m 43s):
I, I, I totally hear you. I, miles is famous for saying that. I knew that Trump was gonna win. And I did not, of course, but what I knew was when I went to the polls, it was the weirdest thing. There was this old, weird white guy, and this was in Evanston still. And this old, weird white guy in Evanston, which is very, very, very democratic. But he was handing out these flyers that were like very pro-Trump and very like Trump is going to win and he should, anyway, I had this sinking feeling. I was like, oh wait, wait, wait, this is Evanston.
1 (5m 24s):
And this guy is like, really sure. And also he seems like kind of a crack pot, but kind of not. And I, there was the first time at the polls where I was like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no. I have a bad feeling about this. And then we went to a friend's house, big mistake for an election night situation. And as the returns started coming in, people started at the party getting drunker. And so getting sadder and getting crazier and saying things like, well that this is fine. Like I'll just move to Italy or I'll just move to. But like, it was like the, the, the denial and the alcohol mixing was really, really, really, really depressing.
1 (6m 8s):
And I was like, I got to get out of here. And so we left before it was called, of course. And, and we, and it was, but I did have this sinking feeling when, when that, when the dude at the, it wasn't at the polls, it was like, I had gone to whole foods afterwards. It's right. And this guy was like putting leaflets on everyone's car that was like, basically get ready for Trump. And I was like in a good way. And I was like, oh shit. If this is happening at Evanston, we've got a problem area. So I wasn't shocked either, but I was very dismayed. And the feeling I have now is that like, literally, I feel like, like I kind of have a migraine today and I feel like I've had a migraine since 1975. That's kind of the feeling I have.
1 (6m 49s):
Like every time something like this happens, I feel like, oh, this feeling again, I have this feeling that I am exhausted and my head hurts and yeah. And then online, it's just a cesspool and some things are great and people are organizing. And, but some things are just, you know, a lot of people we all, as humans get, we just love to start censoring people's feelings and emotions about a tragedy.
2 (7m 19s):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But also that behavior is just like, I am trying to control you because I feel so out of control of myself. And I kind of like, doesn't even really register that much to me. But on Saturday I went to a rally and, you know, just like about 20 minutes from my house. And it's always a good feeling to do something when, when you feel like there's nothing to do. So that was great. And there was about a hundred people there. So that was great. And the, the person who was organizing it was a woman. So she, she literally said the very first words, but it was just to introduce this next speaker, who was a man.
2 (8m 6s):
And then after that was another man. And then after that was another man. So it was five men spoke in a
1 (8m 11s):
Row about this.
2 (8m 16s):
Yeah. Well, okay. So in the moment, the first person who spoke was our Senator Richard Blumenthal. Okay. That, Hey, he came here, that's pretty great. And he, and he has a very good record of voting the way that I agree with for women's rights, people's rights, human rights. So that felt okay. And then his son is also in politics, his
1 (8m 45s):
Son.
2 (8m 46s):
So then his son spoke and his son gave this speech that I could tell, like, I could tell them he did this thing. Or if like he was mimicking the cadence of how political speeches go, where you say three sentences on the fourth sentence, you, you get louder because that's when everybody's going to applaud. But then nobody applauded.
1 (9m 8s):
And he
2 (9m 8s):
Was real confused. He was real confused anyway, but by the fourth man who got up did say, I think I'm the fourth man in a row to be speaking here. You know, he was kind of at least trying to acknowledge it. And I'm of two minds because on the one hand, I think thank God that there are men in positions of power, who, who do agree with, you know, caudifying row, but at the same time, in a more like, step, take a step back way. I'm just going like, yeah, but this is the problem. This is the problem. This is the problem that only your voice matters.
1 (9m 51s):
Well, I think it, for me, it's what I call in LA, at least the giving tents to the houseless situation. So we're giving tends to it's the exact same thing. Right. We're giving tends to people that have no home. Okay. So they have shelter now. Okay. But what, what are we going to really get down to the real issue of what's happening here? So, so
2 (10m 15s):
Yeah. Why are they homeless and what are the services that they, okay,
1 (10m 18s):
Why are we not asking the big questions? And I think we, as people are asking the big questions, but the answers are so going to have to change the way the empire works, that nobody is going to, we, we're not really answering the questions. Right. So I think there's right at the, every I saw this and I don't know if this is accurate, but I saw something that the average, the empire last 250 years, and we're at 2 45
2 (10m 51s):
Talk motherfucker. Yeah.
1 (10m 54s):
So, so I feel like, yeah, people are very afraid to talk about civil war. People are afraid, look, it's a scary thing. And, and, and Nope, Nope, nobody really wants that, but I don't understand where else we're headed. So, so while I don't like it, it's the same thing with the, with the response of people while I don't like that this is happening, it is happening. So I'm going to just say, okay, like, I, I, I, I am not, I don't have any face that we are interested in doing anything else, but, but leaping towards extinction.
1 (11m 39s):
That's how I feel like, I'm not sure what else we're going to do because I'm, I'm looking at facts and I'm looking at what's happening in, in, you know, obviously climate change wise. And I'm like, oh, we're, we're making choices. And right. And also people are probably going to be like, oh, well, there are people doing good work. And that is true. There are a lot of people doing good work. It's just seems like the people that are making decisions are the people, you know, with the most power are not doing good work are doing, I don't know what they're doing, but they're, they're, they're doing capitalism and what's best for, for, for their pocket.
1 (12m 19s):
And that's. Yeah.
2 (12m 21s):
But we, even
1 (12m 22s):
Though it's about money,
2 (12m 23s):
It's about money. And it's also about it's about money and it's about getting reelected because the, because the point of, you know, the reason that all these men's, they were all politicians and they were just, all right, it's all running for reelection. And that's the other thing is miss me with your false, like, I'm not saying to anybody on that stage had false promises, but there's quite a lot of good politicians, you know, as good as they can be, who run on these campaign promises. And they never deliver because they have a hard time, you know, getting their, their fellow senators and so forth to agree with them.
2 (13m 3s):
But yeah, now we're being selected out. I mean, like, there's just really no other way to look at it. And I guess I could say, I guess we deserve it.
1 (13m 19s):
Let me run this by you.
2 (13m 27s):
However, all of this doesn't mean that I don't still get involved in petty bullshit. Like I did.
1 (13m 35s):
Well, tell me, tell me all about that's fantastic.
2 (13m 38s):
We have this God damn fucking bitch of a neighbor that I, I mean, she's just the repository for my rage right now. You know, it's like, it's not really about her, but she she's, you know, she's the person who, when we first moved into this house, very friendly came over, introduced herself. We had kids similar ages, she's at our house for a while. Chatting. She leaves, she calls me 20 minutes later to, to, in an alarmed fashion to tell me that my children who at the time were six and eight or whatever it had had crossed the street without me there.
2 (14m 21s):
And that this was obviously going to be a big problem for me. And I, I mean, that just kind of sealed the deal. We, we tried to be friends. She, she started one of these multi-level marketing. She was selling jewelry. I bought her dumb ass jewelry, you know, and it's just been one thing after the other. And, and she's like the nosy neighbor. Who's never missing an opportunity to tell everybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. And she has these two really out of control dogs that just bark constantly. And she walks them or attempts to walk them. And she, and no other dogs basically can be on the street, you know, without there being a big kerfuffle.
2 (15m 7s):
Now, when I'm walking my dog and I see her coming, I turn the other way a, because I really don't want to see her, but also because I don't want to go through the whole thing of my dog. Yeah. It's all thing. Right. Well, my husband doesn't avoid things like that.
1 (15m 22s):
Well, I've miles wouldn't even notice until it was too late, but I feel like Aaron is more like, I'm going to just walk my dog.
2 (15m 30s):
He's like, it's my fucking street and my dog. And we still live in an America where you're free. You're free to walk your dog. So she's walking. So he's walking the dog and she's coming towards and she's doing her usual thing. And then she said, and this was not the first time she said this. She tells him it's not really a great time to be walking your dog right now as if like she gets to go to
1 (15m 54s):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
2 (15m 58s):
Well, my in-state, I really wanted to go fly into a rage over to her house. And I, luckily I didn't do that. I did go for a walk and walk by her house, both my fingers up. And I thought, well, if I saw her at my dream,
1 (16m 14s):
What I would say is
2 (16m 15s):
I tell you to take those Stella and dot necklaces and choke and hang yourself with them. But they're so cheap. All you'd get is a green net.
1 (16m 23s):
Yeah. You just break it. Wouldn't do the job. It wouldn't do the job. Oh my.
2 (16m 31s):
But in a way, you know, having these petty things is sort of life affirming right. In this weird way. It's like at the end of the day, you're just like, oh yeah, it's just, you don't like your neighbor. People sometimes don't like their neighbors. It's not as much.
1 (16m 46s):
What did, what did your husband say to her? Nothing.
2 (16m 50s):
I mean, he was just like, I I'm walking my dog. I mean, like, I think he was just so flummoxed by the whole thing. Like, is this person really trying to tell me God? Yeah. That's yeah. I think, I think he was done
1 (17m 5s):
The audacity. Yeah. I, I, I, yeah, I hate, I hate her already. And I also think the real issue is fucking, you feel terrible that you cannot control your dogs and you have it done with the rest of us dumb, but responsible fuckers have done, which is train our goddamn dogs. Doris, right now I'm paying an, a great amount of money. So she can go to fucking Frenchie school so that when she sees
2 (17m 35s):
Her all about
1 (17m 37s):
God, so she doesn't jump on people and she doesn't do well. Okay. So when we Doris is, so I did not understand that when even, okay. So Frenchies are bred to be completely dependent on humans. Okay. So like, meaning back in the day, they're not the kind of dog that's bred to go out on their own. They're highly dependent. They're like needy fucking things. Right. Okay. Great. But that doesn't mean what I'm understanding is they still need pack training because the pack, we are not their pack. It's so funny. Like I am not a dog and miles is not a dog. We don't understand dog.
1 (18m 18s):
And so even these like sort of boot, you know, like fancy bougie dogs need pack training, which I was so Cesar Milan always says like, you know, like Eden, these designer ass dogs need fricking socialization. And I thought that meant she just needed to be around people. And like, she needs to be around dogs. That will correct her. And so there is this guy who's obsessed with dogs that lives in, in the miracle mile. I thought it was west Hollywood. I don't know where I am. Anytime I cross over I'm like anywhere is away from Pasadena. So my friend was like, listen, there's something called the school. And they also have like Frenchie Fridays and they ha it's like a very Frenchie centric dog school.
1 (19m 6s):
And they bring in this trainer, that's a protege of Cesar Milan, but everyone can say their approach. I could say I'm a protege of Cesar Milan probably. But anyway, and they play Tibetan singing bowls for the dogs and they get them to calm down and they, and it's a lot of Frenchies, there's like 10 Frenchies that go there. And so I said, all right, I'm going to give it a chance because Doris is great. She's just a tip, very typical Frenchie. And she gets very excited and she doesn't know how to calm herself down. So she pees inside and she will jump on you. And she's really mouthy still at a year. And so I was like, okay, well, like I need to, and, and she she's missing.
1 (19m 48s):
You can tell like, she's missing. Ideally we'd get another dog, but there's no way in hell in a one bedroom. That's this small. I would ever get another dog, especially not another Frenchie. So I was like, what, what to do, what to do. And this guy is like, that runs, this school will send you recaps of the class today in Frenchie class we learned. And then he will explain all the things that we learned. I'm not there. He's not, it's the dogs. It's like so funny. And then there's pictures. So she's doing great, but it is a schlep. It is 35 minutes. Each way. It is expensive. It is.
1 (20m 28s):
So what I am saying is those of us who fucking don't want to be like your neighbor and are like, you know what? I'm going to confront the fact that my dog needs some work and that whatever that we are doing miles and I isn't quite cutting it. And she's not behaving in a way that's going to make her friends like with people or with dogs. What do I do about it? I don't say to other people, it's your fault.
2 (20m 52s):
Somebody else's fault.
1 (20m 54s):
I have no goddamn money. I'm spending the money and the time.
2 (20m 59s):
And there you have hit upon one of the very hardest parts of parenting, which is, and you've talked about this before on the podcast, getting feedback, negative feedback about your child is so demoralizing you at once, feel embarrassed and enraged. You feel enraged with the person. You feel enraged with your kid, for With yourself, for not doing a good enough job, such that this wouldn't be happening. Yeah. It's really, really hard. And everybody has to get to the point that you have already gotten to luckily, which is okay, well, I'm this, the good news is the bad news is I'm the source of this problem.
2 (21m 44s):
And the good news is I'm also the solution to,
1 (21m 46s):
I think we don't know how to make a lot of us. We don't know how to make friends. Right? So this lady, instead of being like, oh my God, maybe I should just like, say to people, you know, like she could do so many things. People can do so many. She could send a letter to each person on the block say, look, I have these asshole dogs. I don't know what to do. If you have fucking suggestions, besides euthanizing them, let me know. I would love that. Or can you help me? Or I'm so sorry. They're assholes. I don't know what to do. I'm I'm working on it or I'm stuck. Just let people know. And then you make friends. And then when you walk down the street, people are gonna be like, oh, there's those crazy asshole dogs.
1 (22m 29s):
Just she's she's trying at least,
2 (22m 31s):
Right. Yes. There is a universe in which a person has crazy dogs like that. And they allow, first of all, they allow for the rehab. They allow us to acknowledge the reality that it's your crazy dog. I mean, that's, that's the other thing I feel like, I feel like we're stopped at level one, which is she won't acknowledge that her dogs are crazy level two. She won't do something about it. You know,
1 (22m 59s):
I'd like level one. It's like level one is like you were saying it like it takes some, you got to just really get to the point of being accepted, having acceptance that what things are going to go horribly wrong. And a lot of times it's your fault in some way. And a lot of times it isn't, but they still go wrong. And like, I just, I was talking about this a lot yesterday choice points when we're at choice points. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, that, you know, people choose bad things to happen to them. I think that's garbage people choose to be with, you know, houseless, garbage. I don't buy that. But what I do buy is I know plenty of people with inner and outer, especially outer resources that don't date.
1 (23m 45s):
They, they do not meat choice points with any sort of ownership and accountability. So they're just like, they don't have, they think they have no choices, but to be an asshole, it's not true. It's not true many times they're you could have my friend taken a turn neighbor, whoever politician and said, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, I have a choice here. So it's interesting. It's like, just because there is this sort of bullshit, a Wu movement to like over to like blame the victim. Yeah. That's true. But I think there is also a willingness to excuse behavior because people feel that people are limited.
1 (24m 26s):
Fuck you limited where you don't like, you know, so there's, there's a line. And I think that we, that the black and white thinking of like, you know, all good, all bad. All everyone chooses everything. It's not, it's just not the way it works. But like, yeah. So I,
2 (24m 43s):
No, it's not the way it works. You're so your thing recently is all about choice points. My thing is all about dissociation and, and I feel, I think I've hit on in the past. I've always said the reason I don't get along with anybody in my town is like, it's all Puritan and whatever. And that's probably true too, but there's another deeper thing. Because a lot of times I will meet somebody and I was trying to define what's the immediate thing that within seconds of talking to somebody, you can proceed. Cause you feel this is a, this is going to, this might go in a good direction for me it's they don't seem completely dissociated.
2 (25m 25s):
Right. And people are going to hear that and think, I mean, a bunch of people with multiple personalities, that's not what I
1 (25m 31s):
Mean. Yeah.
2 (25m 34s):
I really just mean the kind of person who says, for example, you know, my dogs are not crazy. My dogs are not crazy and my dogs are not crazy or my life is not in shambles. My marriages I'm shambles. My kids are not whatever, like whatever it is, there's a lot of, you know, people have to do so much work to hold up. These myths about themselves and their families and their lives. And I get it because to be in touch with the reality of one's life or one situation is completely overwhelmed.
1 (26m 7s):
So painful too. It's so painful.
2 (26m 11s):
It's so painful. But so, but like I need, in order to have a thing with a human, I need to be able to look at them and have some vague semblance that they're not in another, on another planet now. Sometimes I get past that and I, and it's like, okay, but I still just don't like you, right. For whatever reason. But I think that's the majority of the people I encounter in life or in some type of a dissociative place. And maybe it's because of the pandemic and maybe it's because things have been a shit show for the last several years, but that w that thought really clarified for me.
2 (26m 51s):
Okay. Yeah. This is the, this is like the stumbling block I have with a lot of people. I have a friend right now who, I mean, she's, she's kind of a friend, but she she's one of these people, like the day we met, she started referring to me as her best friend kind of, kind of a thing. And she likes to drink a lot. And so I kind of pulled back on the relationship. And during the pandemic, I had a pretty good reason to, and after that she's been contacting me and she's just not really kind of getting the hint. So I decided to take the opportunity the last time she contacted me to say, well, you know, like things aren't really going that great, like this and this and this, no response, no response, because what she wants for me is to validate the myth that she doesn't drink too much.
2 (27m 41s):
And that everything is fine in her life. Right. And when I want to talk about how things are not fine, she's not interested.
1 (27m 49s):
Yeah. That's really a telltale sign. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that it is. Yeah. And then I take it a step further, which is in my brain, which is I get angry because I have lived, I have spent so much time, energy, sweat, and, you know, sweat equity in looking at the painful stuff that I just can't perpetuate the circus show that that it's okay.
2 (28m 27s):
Well, today we are talking to Glen Davis. Glenn Davis is one of the hardest working busiest people we have ever met. He is the artistic director of Steppenwolf theater in Chicago. He's just closed a production of king James, which had also been a Steppenwolf. He just closed it at the mark taper forum in Los Angeles. He has a production company with Trell, Alvin McCraney, and they've got 10 projects on the slate right now. He's a writer, he's a director, he's a performer, he's a producer. And he is an artistic director. So please enjoy not our, it was just boss, boss, his conversation with Glenn Davis.
4 (29m 22s):
I gave it to my office. You survive theater school, but mostly I want to ask what's happening with you right now. Tell me what are you doing and what are you feeling and how are you today?
5 (29m 34s):
Right now? I am doing great. I am doing a play here at, in LA, at the mark taper forum called king James. We have been here for over a month and we closed this Sunday.
4 (29m 50s):
All right. So here's my question to you. We talked to our first attempt and it goes so well in terms of our tech, but so you went to the theater school. I just finished teaching at a theater school. I don't know if I'm going back. They have a new Dean coming in. Yeah. Who? I had a meeting who asked to have a meeting and she was lovely if you had, I'm asking this
5 (30m 11s):
Question.
4 (30m 12s):
Yes. So if you had to go back, would you have gone to a theater conservatory? Would you do it again? Would you go to a conservatory for acting training to
5 (30m 24s):
Theater school specifically, or just one
4 (30m 26s):
In general and then to the theater school specifically?
5 (30m 30s):
Yes. Yes. I would say at the very least, even if I didn't learn anything, I made some of my strongest friendships at the theater school.
4 (30m 40s):
You, you have, you have not only kept in touch, but you are thriving alongside people that you went to school with. So you would have done done it again. Okay. Favorite? What do you, what kind of art do you want to make my friend? Like, what is your, if you had, I'm asking this to all my, our guests, we just have to someone. And I said like, what are we doing here on this planet? And what kind of art do you want to make?
5 (31m 6s):
I guess I would say art that is impactful and challenges. Its audiences and challenges are sort of moral and ethical codes. Our identity, our idea of what we think is right or wrong in the world.
4 (31m 24s):
Can you say more about that?
5 (31m 25s):
Yeah. I did a play a few seasons ago called downstate and that this does exactly right.
4 (31m 33s):
Yeah. Intense. Yeah. Intense I side. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's, it's about people that live in like a halfway house.
5 (31m 42s):
Yeah. They're in a group home. It's five sex offenders who have, who have been released from prison, but into a group home. And so they have to figure out how to, you know, assimilate back into normal society. And you go into that play, you know, with your most folks have, I would imagine, have their own, very strong opinions about sex offenders, you know, pedophiles full stop, you know, and then this play the best way I can explain it is that it makes you reconsider what you think of those people when they, when they sort of visceral level, you, you go in thinking, okay, I know I don't need to explore this.
5 (32m 29s):
And then you do even just for, you know, this two hour play. And even if it's just a minor shift, it feels like you've gone a far way out of the way to give back maybe to the same place. But you, you know, Bruce Norris wrote this play and he talks about how he wrote the play because he wanted to, he wanted folks to challenge. He wanted to challenge the audience's ability to, to their capacity for forgiveness.
4 (32m 59s):
Yeah. I mean, I'm obsessed with the idea of who gets to be forgiven and why, and what happens when yeah. People make choices. And I think w you know, working with felons when they got out of prison, I learned that most of us well. Yeah. I, I truly believe that most of us are like one bad choice away. A lot of times from being an exact same position as my clients were in, or as the people in that player. And, and it's not as simple as we think, but, you know, I, yeah, I agree. So, okay. So you want to make that kind of art. Do you feel like you made that kind of art at the theater school at all?
4 (33m 40s):
Did you,
5 (33m 43s):
I think at the theater school, I was less concerned with making art and more concerned with managing the cut system. If we had a cut system and then, you know, just being a good actor, it was, it was primarily, primarily about self. It was less about storytelling. I didn't, I don't think I got to that place in my life career until a few, few years out of school. You do some work and you figure out it's not simply about me and how good I am in it, or you know, how much money I'm making.
4 (34m 18s):
Yeah. Did you, when you did the showcase, did you the show? Okay, so I was just the, the, the kids, the kiddos were just here during the showcase. There was no real showcase in person which sucked this year, but they came to LA and it brought back memories. And so I was going to ask you about your experience. Did you go to New York LA and do Chicago? Okay. What was it like for you? What material do you remember the material you did? And what was the, what was your experience of that in terms of interest reps?
5 (34m 51s):
I don't remember what scene I did for showcase, but I did, I did do a scene. I remember I was playing, I had a basketball at his house playing basketball at the same time. I should figure out what play that was, but I did that. And then I got, I guess, a healthy amount of interest in New York and LA, and I knew from showcase even before that, that I knew I was, I was leaving Chicago.
4 (35m 18s):
Okay. This is very exciting to me to, to, so you, you, w w how did you know that, like, when you went there and you did your scene and afterwards, they said, so, and so wants to meet with you or these people, like you, you just, like, I gotta get outta here, or what was the feeling like? My next move is,
5 (35m 37s):
Well, I was cold in Chicago, so I had just done a Chicago winter, and I wasn't, I was determined not to do another. And I think for a long time, I thought I'd go to New York. What happened was I ended up getting a, managed, signing with a manager here in LA, right out of showcase, and then decided, okay, I'm going to go to LA. And then I booked this other job. It took me to Canada for two years, but I kept my LA manager. And then I moved to LA right after this thing called the Stratford festival.
4 (36m 10s):
Of course. Yeah. Two years. Yeah. Holy shit. So you went right out of school to Canada. Yeah. Do you, how was that?
5 (36m 20s):
It was great. It was, it was this sort of things that I didn't anticipate I'd ever do. I didn't even know where Stratford was when I got the job. And so I went into, it was called the Birmingham conservatory for classical theater training at Stratford festival. And so I go up and I studied for 20 weeks in the winter and in Stratford, Ontario. And then you go into the season as an actor. So I was up there for two years
4 (36m 52s):
And then, okay. So you're doing that for two years where you kept your manager and then what happens after Canada
5 (36m 58s):
Moved to LA
4 (36m 59s):
You just straight up moved here? Yup. Okay. And then, and then you back and forth, or you were here for a while. What years are your year here? Youngster. What year was this? Not that long ago.
5 (37m 8s):
I moved to LA and then I, I was, I think I did submit two thousands. Then I went to New York to do a play. I want to say something like 2008. And then from then on, I started going back and forth between New York and LA. I did that for probably brought till about 2000, 2014, something like that.
4 (37m 44s):
And then what happened? I'm fascinated. You, you have a story that I don't for theater school grads, that this doesn't usually happen. So usually what we notice is you do the showcase, you pick a place and you stay there for a long time, but you've been moving around. So then, okay. So after you did back and forth, how did you land? I mean,
5 (38m 4s):
Well, I was living in LA. I had done a play in New York, and so I thought to myself, I wanted to be able to go back and forth. So I still kept my, my home in LA, I guess I call it. And I would just, I got a roommate in New York and I would just go back and forth between the two. And so I did a play in New York in 2008, then I did another in 2011. And, and then I think I will probably let that place go. New York around 2014.
4 (38m 38s):
Yeah. And then since then, I've just
5 (38m 40s):
Been, then I was in LA and then I D I went back to Chicago in 2013 to do a play at Steppenwolf. And then I got a place in Chicago. So I replaced my place in New York with a place in Chicago. And I would just go back and forth between Chicago and LA.
4 (38m 57s):
Okay. So now, now you run the joint with, with a bunch of, with Audrey and probably some help, some other step waltz. W why do you take, why did you take that on, like, what, what, what, what happened there that you were like, this is the next thing I'm like, fascinated by the choices people make. And this was the same with my clients and the same with my characters. I write, like, how does that happen when you're going back and forth from New York or to mostly now, Chicago and LA. Yeah. And then you're like, you're, you were obviously an ensemble member I'm assuming first. Okay. And then what, how does that happen? That, you
5 (39m 36s):
Know, wow. When I was made ensemble, remember in 2017, I had just done another play a step one side. I think I did like
4 (39m 44s):
About, you got older.
5 (39m 46s):
Yeah. You got older. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And so I did another play called the Christians and had, had a great time. And after that, I, I had started to the other part of my life. I'm a producer in television and film. So I started producing and then it just sort of became natural to me, for me to want to sort of guide projects to fruition. And so when the Steppenwolf job came up and R D Shapiro who brought me into the company announced that she was leaving and the company did a, that the company has a self-imposed mandate that an ensemble member always be the artistic director.
4 (40m 31s):
I did not know that.
5 (40m 32s):
Okay. It's only ever been on ensemble. So we did a search within the company and myself and Audrey Francis, who, you know, we got the most votes. And so,
4 (40m 44s):
Yeah.
5 (40m 44s):
Yeah. The ensemble bows down, sambal chooses the ensemble, the artistic director.
4 (40m 50s):
I did not know this. Okay. This is very fascinating to me. Okay. So you got the most votes and why two people, like, did they, has it ever been to at the same time,
5 (41m 0s):
If it has there's rumors that it was two before this there's only ever been two in a formalized setting, formalized situation. And so we decided to do it together because it's such a huge job. And both of us are actors. Yeah. Audrey is also a director. I am a producer. And so we thought, you know, to do this job, you know, most times it's directors, because, you know, it affords them the ability to still have their career outside of it for an actor. If you're running the theater. And like right now, I'm in Los Angeles doing king James.
5 (41m 41s):
Yeah. Then it, it, who, who do, who does staff go to? Who, who, who sort of running, steering the ship while I'm away or the counterpart is away. So we said, okay, if there's two of us that we can sort of outline in any given year that as long as one of us is on campus, one of us is steering the ship to the garden at any given time. Then there's a version of the second work. So we, we, we decided together that we would, we would pitch ourselves together instead of one of us doing it. And so the ensemble loved it and the board thought it was a great idea. And so they contracted both of us. And so here we are.
4 (42m 22s):
And does it go on forever and ever until you get sick of it,
5 (42m 26s):
We have to let them know we do, we do contracts. And so before the contract ends, you let them know, Hey, I want to stay on it, or I want to,
4 (42m 36s):
How's it going?
5 (42m 37s):
It's going
4 (42m 38s):
Right. Do you like it?
5 (42m 40s):
I love it. Is it
4 (42m 40s):
Hard?
5 (42m 41s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. It's hard.
4 (42m 43s):
It's fulfilling.
5 (42m 45s):
Very,
4 (42m 45s):
Yeah. Okay. Do you have any time to do anything? Do you, do you, you must because you're here. So you have, but you do a lot of things. So I guess my next question is how do you do a lot of things and managed to not lose your mind?
5 (43m 0s):
What I would say that I'm a big planner. I have a lot of help. Obviously. I have assistance. I partners, turtle album McCraney, who my, I wasn't mentioning before
4 (43m 15s):
That is to school together,
5 (43m 17s):
Went to school together. Yeah. And he is my best friend in the world. Also my producing partner,
4 (43m 23s):
Brilliant boat. But yeah, you're both very brilliant human.
5 (43m 26s):
Thank you. I appreciate that. And so we have a production company based here in LA and we're in an overall deal at universal. And so we, we, that's a partnership and we have a team, a very strong team that we produce television and film. And then at Steppenwolf, I have Audrey, who's the best partner one can ask for. And we, we, we together manage through all the, the things that are going on and step off. So, and then, you know, when I'm going to do a play, yeah. I'm constantly in communication with her constantly communication with Tarell about all the things that we're doing.
4 (44m 7s):
Oh my God. So I guess the communication is, is really the key. Okay. My question is, what would you say to like the students and my young students who are like, what kind of world am I walking into? What, in the entertainment industry, how can I take ownership over my career? What the fuck do I do? I always like to be whatever you're doing, something's going right in your career. So, which is great. And I'm not saying it doesn't take a tremendous amount of work, but I'm also saying, is there any tips or like how to manage this life? You've graduated. You've just, like you said, like, you want to, you want to make it, you want to, you, you want to earn money, want to pay the rent and still make good art.
4 (44m 56s):
How the fuck do you do that?
5 (45m 0s):
Well, you're saying w what advice I would give. Right. I would say the, one of the first questions you asked was, you know, LA or Chicago, or, you know, I would say pick the place that you'd like to live. Like a lot of times people go, oh, I got to go to LA. If I want a career, you don't have to do that anymore. You can be in London, you'll be in Toronto. You can be in new Orleans, you can Chicago. So I would Fe I would say, go to the place that makes you happiest, makes you feel like the best version of yourself or some approximation of it. And then sort of sit down. I always look at my life in terms of five-year goals and plans.
5 (45m 40s):
What do I want, what I want my life to look like in the next five years. And so sit down and make a plan. If that's to be a series regular on a TV show, then put all of your efforts towards that. If it's to be, you know, a Broadway actor, then, you know, you know, there's a path to that, presumably. So I would say, make a plan and take some risks. You know, they might not always be comfortable, but you go out and you say, at least for, at least for me, I've, I've learned the most about myself. And I really taken a risk. And lastly, I would say, particularly for actors become, you know, did this happen by happenstance with me, but my best friend in the world is a writer and a very accomplished yeah,
4 (46m 28s):
Yeah. Like not, yeah, no slouch like a brilliant one of the most brilliant. Yeah.
5 (46m 33s):
And, and I've because of that, I've, you know, our partnership I've been in almost every one of his plays I've, we've created together. He's making things for me. I would say, if you can find a creative partner partnership or ships, you know, Rajiv, Joseph is another friend of mine who we're very close friends, we've done two plays together. Now we're doing TV shows together. Like find those folks that you're like, I just like being in partnership with you. And let's, you know, it might take five, 10 years to create something together, but let's start the conversation.
4 (47m 9s):
Did you know that immediately at school, that these folks were going to, cause there's also, isn't there a woman that you also are close with, that you met?
5 (47m 17s):
Yeah. Alana arenas is my other best tool in a lot of my two best friends in the world. Okay.
4 (47m 21s):
Okay. So did you know at the, at school, at the theater school where you immediately, like, I ha I love these books and I want to make art with them, or how did
5 (47m 30s):
That? No, I don't. I don't think cause Tara wasn't a writer at the time. He was, he was an actor and a theater school a year ahead of me and Atlanta was two years ahead of me. And, but they just, they were home. I met them and I just said, oh, you're my person. And so those two have been in my life for the last, you know, 20 however many years. And those are proud. I've worked with them several times over and over. They're both supremely talented Alana was on Tyrrell's TV show called David makes man. And she was amazing in it. So I think that, yeah, I just found them as people interesting and you know, beautiful people inside and out and they just so happen to be, you know, supremely talented, but I didn't go into it looking for them like, who do I like?
5 (48m 21s):
You know? So that's, that's essentially what it was. You.
4 (48m 25s):
Okay. What kind of, you said you want to make art, like, do you, is it more that the medium doesn't matter as much as the story in terms of TV versus being in a F or working on films or working on television? Or what, what is, do you have a favorite or are you just open to telling good stories, whatever form it takes? Are you that kind of a,
5 (48m 46s):
Yeah, I think it's the, the ladder. They're very different forms to work in as an actor. I'm doing a play right now, obviously. Yeah. I get a fulfillment that I don't get in producing television and film, but also in television and film, I get a, a fulfillment there as well, where I'm the, I have, my voice means is, is hugely meaningful in the room. If it's not me making the final decision on something, you know, very close to the, the, the folks in the room who are making those final decisions. So as an actor, you're, you're coming to be a cog in a wheel, you know, or you're there to service the story in film and TV as a producer, at least you're, you're get the engine you're, you're providing the platform or the, the landscape for artists to come in and tell their stories.
5 (49m 44s):
So it's a very different fulfillment that, you know, being in one in the other. And so I love them, both. Yeah. Theater is, is where I come from from first fell in love with storytelling and the art and the craft.
4 (49m 58s):
W I can't remember. I know that your family is not, it's more of a political family, right? Yeah.
5 (50m 2s):
And in terms of politics in Chicago.
4 (50m 3s):
Yeah. Yeah. So, but not so not theater so much. Okay. And then how did you end up doing theater since you said theaters
5 (50m 12s):
You're I was on the basketball team in high school. That's right.
4 (50m 14s):
Then you realized,
5 (50m 16s):
Yeah. Yeah. I realized I just audition audition for a play randomly. And I thought, oh wow, this is, I can do this. And so I gave up sports or basketball and she said, my, I thought, I thought at the time I had a burgeoning basketball career.
4 (50m 31s):
But if you did, though, you must have had a co I mean, what you were, you said you loved it and you were good at it. You just didn't think you were good enough.
5 (50m 41s):
Yeah. I don't even think at the time I knew if I was good enough. And I probably had all the bravado that any young
4 (50m 47s):
Men
5 (50m 48s):
That I could go to the NBA, but I just fell in love with theater. I fell in love with the art form and, you know, later studying it at DePaul at other places, setting Shakespeare. I just thought I can do this for the rest of my life. So.
4 (51m 6s):
Oh. And you knew it, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. So you knew it. Okay. And then if you had to like, like the next thing you want to do, like you have, are you doing exactly? I talked to people sometimes and they're doing exactly what they want to do, or they're excited. Or sometimes they're like, no, I want to pivot. And in a year, like we talk about, you talked about five years, so what's your five-year, what do you want to do in five years in your five-year plan? Do you have any grant?
5 (51m 33s):
Yeah. Well, I think that a big part of my artistic life right now is stepping up is I'm leading the company. There are some things that industry-wide, that I would love to see changed.
4 (51m 46s):
I want to know what they are,
5 (51m 48s):
Where there's a, there's a long list
4 (51m 50s):
With one
5 (51m 54s):
More pay equity for, for people in the arts theater theater specifically. There's, there's just not, you know, you can't, most of us cannot live, let alone thrive on a theater salary. So we'd love to change that diversity equity inclusion is very important to me getting more people involved, who don't, who historically have not been a part of the theater community. I think doing king James has been sort of eye opening for me because so many people have come because they love basketball. They love LeBron, or they love sports.
5 (52m 35s):
And now they're, you know, they're coming to a play and they go with some of the first play I've ever been to. And I loved it. So I think there's a lot, a lot of work there to do.
4 (52m 46s):
And do you feel like the word beat with the pandemic and everything? Have you, have you been able to start diet? Like, are you diving in now or are you, were you in the, when did you start take over you and Andre?
5 (52m 60s):
Our first day was as artistic director was September 1st, 2021.
4 (53m 7s):
Yeah. Okay. And now what's happening? The seagull happened? No.
5 (53m 13s):
Yeah, we just, we just closed the seagull. It was, it was our first theater in the,
4 (53m 19s):
The new spaces. Is it gorgeous?
5 (53m 22s):
Or it's, it's, it's all I walk into it and I'm just blown away. And I actually get very excited about one day being able to perform in that theater. But it's this beautiful in the round space that is state of the art, these wonderfully resonant acoustics. It is. Yeah. It's, it's a playground. I love that. I love that space, but yeah, we just opened our first play. We opened, there was the seagull, an adaptation of checkoffs, the seagull by Yassin playing golf and he wrote and directed it and it, it was fantastic.
5 (54m 3s):
And yeah. So now that now that theater is open,
4 (54m 7s):
Are you, do you have any things exciting that are probably a million things that are happening, but like television or film wise or for you, or, oh yeah. Or your company or anything that, you know, what's happening.
5 (54m 21s):
We have step move, just announced this new season. So the false will start, well, we'll have that season, beginning, this fall that we're excited about. So the first season that Audra and I were able to curate ourselves, so that's exciting.
4 (54m 39s):
What does that mean? Like you're in charge. Like you have to plan the whole shit or like, so like, if you have all the plays out there, you have a literary person I'm sure. And they say, okay, this is all on the table. Yeah. And then you read them all and then does lively debate ensued what happened? Okay.
5 (54m 57s):
We have an artistic team that we go back and forth over place and we decide, you know, obviously it's
4 (55m 4s):
No.
5 (55m 5s):
Yeah. We announced our season April, I think. Okay.
4 (55m 8s):
What are you super excited? I'm married. You're probably out. So a little bit more. Okay. Do we know if you are going to be in them? Can
5 (55m 15s):
You be, or you
4 (55m 17s):
Can't. Okay.
5 (55m 18s):
I, I don't know just yet. I just don't know, like
4 (55m 24s):
Deciding.
5 (55m 25s):
Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's possible. Yeah.
4 (55m 27s):
That's going to be exciting and you're playing closes. And then when you leave here to go back to Chicago,
5 (55m 32s):
I leave here I go on vacation and then I'll go back to Chicago. And then I do a play in the fall called well downstate. Oh yeah. We do that in New York in the fall. And then we have Trella and I have 10 TV series that are in development. Yeah. Yeah.
4 (55m 55s):
Totally crap. Congratulations.
5 (55m 58s):
Very much. So
4 (55m 60s):
Tenancy develop, I guess that's how it works. Wow. Wow. Good for you.
5 (56m 5s):
So what looks to go into production on one later this year? And yeah, we're pitching shows always. And so that's, most of my days are, you know, pitching shows, working on development with our executives at universal and managing the theater. So picking plays really
4 (56m 26s):
Plays very full
5 (56m 28s):
Life and doing a play.
4 (56m 29s):
Do you love your life?
5 (56m 31s):
Yeah, I love it. Wow.
4 (56m 32s):
Okay. Do you re we, we were just had I'm in a book club and we were talking about regret. Do you believe in, what's your idea when someone says to you, what do you think about regrets? Do you have them, do you think it's bullshit? Do you think that regret is good? Because it makes us, we had a lively discussion about regret the other night here at the office.
5 (56m 51s):
What was the consensus?
4 (56m 52s):
Well, some people are like, no, there's no such thing as regret because in the moment you do the best you can with the choices you have. But I actually think regret has been helpful for me because things like I regret that I didn't do certain things. It's not about judgment for me. It's more about like, I'm S maybe it's sadness. I don't know. I regret that, like my mom and I never talked about X before she passed. Right. Or, but I don't say, and I'm an asshole because of that. I just say, I regret that. But other people are saying, no, no regrets, like live your life with no regrets. I don't know. Where do you fall on this? I don't know.
5 (57m 28s):
I think that, I think for all honest with ourselves, there, there are things that may be in our past that we wrapped that we maybe wish we had not done done in that same way. That's the sort of notion of a regret. You know, you wish you made a different choice to varying degrees, but I think that at least when most people say, because I understand the notion of, Hey, there's no regrets. You, you had to make the choice you were going to make to be the person that you go to. You're going to be, I get it. So I think that, I think more to the point for me is there are regrets. You just have to live with them. You just have to learn to live with them. And, you know, all of us decide or make a, make a choice of how we're going to sort of, how do you say it is a word I'm looking for, but how you sort of assimilate all your choices into your person,
4 (58m 25s):
Integrate that and like, become like accept them or like the least own them, maybe.
5 (58m 32s):
Okay. I did that. It is what it is.
4 (58m 43s):
That brings me to my final. I'll let you, but what was your, her a bit of as a human, but like, what do you do when things don't go your way? How do you, cause I think a lot of people that listen to the podcast are coping with like regret and also rejection. And when things don't go your way, whatever that means, how do you as a person, as an artist, however you want to answer it, how do you get back up how do you, how do you keep going?
5 (59m 13s):
Yeah, I think that I learned this, this trick oh, years ago, where I go and I thought to myself, I'm never going to, whenever I auditioned for, yeah, I am. I am, I will not covet it. I will do everything in my power not to covet it so that if, and when I don't get it, which he usually don't, you didn't lose anything. It was never yours
4 (59m 35s):
Coveting as it is an interesting word there. Right. Cause it's like, it means sort of to try to clench or hold onto or grasp and like control. All right. So you say that to yourself?
5 (59m 47s):
Yeah. It gives me a sense of relaxation, relaxation going into the room. Look, if I get it and it could be, life-changing awesome. But if it doesn't, my life is where it is today. Awesome.
4 (59m 58s):
Part of the thing that I noticed with you is like that you've built such an awesome life anyway, that like stuff will add to it if something mindblowing comes along, but it's not as though it's the only thing going on. Right? So like you have so much going on that you seem to love that if you don't get book a job, it's not going to make the whole house fall down. Right? Like it's not the whole entirety of who you are as an artist.
5 (1h 0m 21s):
Yeah. This is, this goes back to an experience I had when I first moved to LA, I was in, I was a, an intern at a casting office and that's something I would actually suggest actors recommended they do because you get to see what the other side looks like. And I remember being in there and this, this guy comes in for this audition. He's just Emmy nominated actor at the time. And he has like four page monologue. And I'm reading with him, he's reading through it. He looks down at the pages maybe twice. And he got it the night before. So he did this enormous amount of work. He's reading through it. I'm looking down at the page, just trying to remember it. And I've just have one line of course responses.
5 (1h 1m 1s):
And he finished it. He is brilliant. He
4 (1h 1m 3s):
Finishes it.
5 (1h 1m 4s):
He did a fantastic job. He's brilliant. He gets up right away and says, well, look, thank you all. Thank you all so much and have a nice weekend or whatever. Yeah. He didn't linger. He didn't say, do you need more? He didn't say, Hey, how
4 (1h 1m 20s):
You know,
5 (1h 1m 22s):
He just left out and he did not. It seemed like something else was pulling him out of the room.
4 (1h 1m 29s):
Other
5 (1h 1m 31s):
Life, something, something else, this wasn't everything he goes out. And the director, I mean the, the casting director, there's, there's just this hush for about 10 seconds, which is a long time after somebody leaves a room after auditioning and it's all executives in the room and me and the cats. And he says the casting director, she says, the casting director says, that's why he's immune nominated. And then there's another beat or two. And then the, the lead executive says, yeah, but he's not right.
5 (1h 2m 11s):
And so that was it. And so what it taught me was even if you go in with, in your, you're doing all the right things, you're playing all the right beats are the guy. There's a version of that show in which he was fantastic and went on to write awards and
4 (1h 2m 27s):
Things,
5 (1h 2m 28s):
But he wasn't right in their estimation. So it took the pressure off of me of trying to have to be
4 (1h 2m 33s):
Right for everything. Like we can't be right for everything
5 (1h 2m 37s):
Not going to be right.
4 (1h 2m 37s):
And what's not, ours is not ours. Like you're saying like, you can covet something all you want, but if it's not meant for me, it's not coming to me,
5 (1h 2m 45s):
But it mattered to him no less because he still went in and knock their socks off as an actor. And that's the narrative that comes out of that room is that he wasn't right. But wow, he's brilliant. I can't wait to, he is right for the right for,
4 (1h 2m 58s):
And also it had quite an effect on you. And now you're telling me this story and then it'll be told on the podcast. And so it's, it matters, right? Like it's a ripple effect. So he might not have been right for that part. You know, there's a friend of mine is a casting director and she always says, you probably know her Mickey Paskal on Chicago. And she says, not yet for the person. So it is not, no, it is not there, Terry, you know, she said, not yet, it's not yours yet. Not yet for you. Not yet. And I love that because it, it sort of implies that something's coming. We just don't know when. And we just don't know what it looks like specifically, but just not yet. And I was like, oh, it's such a more, oh, it's like an open way to look at these jobs rather than just like you did with the, it's just not right for it.
4 (1h 3m 45s):
He, he was brilliant. And then, like you said, there's a version of that show with him in it, but this is not this one. Yeah. And so it's, I, I think that that's great. And I, I think young actors really need to hear that, which is not yet. And you're not going to be right for everything you can't be.
5 (1h 4m 1s):
Yeah. It took a lot of pressure off me to have to be perfect. And I just started relaxing and just, you know what, I'm gonna do the best job, my version of this, this character. And then if I get it awesome, if I don't, I haven't lost anything. Yeah.
4 (1h 4m 15s):
And I think, I think what I'm getting just from this, from this interview too, is that idea of building a life with that is full of things that I, or anyone loves to do. Not just one thing. So that if, if one thing doesn't go in one area, doesn't go like perfectly. I could still be like, thank you, have a great day. I'm going to go out and live my life. That is like really dope over here. I have family, I have whatever the things are. Great. So you're not dependent on this one. Yes. To like be okay, but I think it's, it's yeah.
5 (1h 4m 51s):
It's hard to find you to find your happiness. It's
4 (1h 4m 53s):
Just like a part of your day, right? Like it's one part of your day. And then you go on and do your things and have your conference calls with Steppenwolf and whatever, eat a sandwich or whatever. So
5 (1h 5m 3s):
Remember this one or from one friend of mine years ago said, I look at auditions as my one opportunity to act that day or to perform or to tell a story. And I had my two minutes, I go in and I do it and then I'll let it go. And I throw away the sides. And I, I, I go home.
4 (1h 5m 19s):
I mean, I think that's great. Like I think, I think taking the pressure off and also, right, it's sort of what I call, like right-sizing things, you know, like I've, I I've said before I got into rooms, like I have seen the face of hell and this is not it we're going to go in and we're gonna do it. All right. So I will let you go because you're very, you're very busy and you have a lot of things going on, but I, I just want to thank you. And I also want to say, like, I have a lot of hope. I mean, I, I love Audrey and now I adore you. And I think that the American theater has a real opportunity. The, one of the things that I'm noticing, especially in the whole two weeks that we've had in terms of the Supreme court, that w we have a lot of opportunity, like, things are really, really hard and terrible, but I also think that anytime there's something really terrible, there's also an opportunity for the counterpoint to that.
4 (1h 6m 12s):
So I'm hoping with the American theater and art in general, perhaps that maybe we can be part of that counterpoint of all the terrible shit that's going on. And I'm hoping that stepping Wolf, I can't wait to see, I'm going to see what the season is, is going to, you don't have to tell me what the season is. I'll look it up. I think you and Audrey should be in all the plays and that's probably not going to happen, but, but no, I am hopeful. I am still hopeful. Are you still hopeful about things?
5 (1h 6m 38s):
Absolutely. Yeah. I wouldn't do it if I wasn't, it's it's not a job you want to take on with a sense of hopelessness. You have to really believe in the, in the sort of prospects of the artists involved in the sort of theater landscape itself.
4 (1h 6m 54s):
And since you, do you think the same holds true for like film and television? Are you still hopeful?
5 (1h 6m 58s):
Yeah. Filming film and television have this thing, that theater doesn't and that's called money. So whether you're, you know, I know a lot of folks who are on TV shows who are, you know, maybe not creatively inspired, you know, we've heard that story a lot, but they're getting there. You know, if, if it's, if it's an exchange of dividends for their time, then they're being paid in comparison to their counterparts in other industries they're being paid handsomely. And so that brings you a sense of happiness versus a fulfilling.
4 (1h 7m 29s):
Yeah. I didn't help your family and you can at least two. So that's true. Like, I think that that's, yeah. We seem to have found a mix of the things that you love and are important to you. And I think that that's something that, that is, that is brilliant, that we don't see a lot. So I say, keep, keep on. I mean, of course you're going to keep on, but thank you for talking to
5 (1h 7m 48s):
Me.
3 (1h 7m 58s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina cheat, or the co-hosts this episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: modern hearing aids are wild, it's always helpful to rate, review, and subscribe.
Let Me Run This By You: Family Court
Interview: We talk to Gary Mills about: Pinnacle Performance Company, Fargo, Trollwood Performing Arts School, drama teachers, Death of a Salesman, Don Ilko, The Mouse That Roared, The King And I, Come Blow Your Horn, Lee Kirk, Ric Murphy, Neil Simon, Last of the Red Hot Lovers, Man And Superman, Sam Shepard, Curse of the Starving Class, John C Reilly, American Buffalo, Pump Up The Volume, Dave Koechner, Brian Dennehy, Dog Boys, Atlantic Theater Company, David Byrne, Vince Vaughn, Jim Ostholthoff, The Spotlight Exercise, A Lie of the Mind, Paul Oakley Stovall, the Queen of England.
Intro: Dinosaurs, collaboration, chickens:roost
Let Me Run This By You: Teal Swan
Interview: We talk to W. Earl Brown about Deadwood, A View From the Bridge, Kentucky, family trauma, Dr. Bella Itkin, Don DePallo, Chris Farley, Wes Craven, David Milch, Gretchen Rennell, Leo Burmester, There's Something About Mary, It's Cold in Them Thar Hills, Hamlet, The Imaginary Invalid, That Championship Season, Amy Pietz, George Czarnecki, transcendence in the theater, Waltz of the Toreadors, Stanislavski, depression, Scream, John C. Reilly,
Intro: Boz is done taking care of people and also she booked a national commercial. Did Gina use the word fatuous correctly?
Let Me Run This By You: Tread documentary, tales of revenge.
Interview: We talk to Severance's Tramell Tillman about the University of Tennessee, ongoing racial disparities in conservatories, wanting to be an orthopedic surgeon and trying advertising before realizing he was meant to be an actor, Xavier University of Louisiana, Hunters with Al Pacino, Howard University, graduating Summa Cum Laude from Jackson State University, Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity, Dr. Mark G. Hendersen, mentors, Jed Diamond, The 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, micro and macro racial aggressions, The Great Society at Lincoln Center, Brian Cox, the unknown harrowing adventures that sometimes accompany auditions and callbacks, making Ben Stiller laugh, Dan Erickson, being self-possessed, Rachel Tenner, Tigran Babadjanian, having the biggest break of your life two months before a global pandemic, Sarah Edwards, Doug Ellin's Ramble On pilot with Kevin Dillon, Kevin Connolly of Entourage.
Intro: Gina is unwell. The Staircase series and The Staircase dramatization, the impact of having to hide one's sexuality,
Let Me Run This By You: Boz booked a national commercial! Jodi Sonenberg, Mickie Paskal, Tread documentary.
Interview: We talk to Sumie Takashima about the salvation that some people find in drama, The Hangar Theatre, Tisch, moms, hoarding, Chicago.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice
3 (12s):
The theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand
2 (15s):
It.
4 (16s):
Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
3 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
1 (34s):
You know, what's going on? Oh, and you're in a new weight. You have a new thing in behind you.
2 (40s):
Yes, I am in my husband's office right now
1 (44s):
At his office away from the house
2 (47s):
I am.
1 (50s):
Oh my God. I bet. Do you want to tell everybody what's happening?
2 (55s):
Everybody's COVID in my house. Do you have
1 (57s):
COVID
2 (58s):
Well, I'm not testing positive for it, but I have symptoms. And when I tell you I didn't sleep one Wayne class night. I mean, like, I didn't, I, this is a level of tired that I haven't felt since I had a newborn baby. I, I, I think I took, I think I took one daytime cough medicine last night. Yeah. Well it said day or night.
1 (1m 24s):
There's usually a different,
2 (1m 26s):
Nobody had said day or night, like, but
1 (1m 31s):
Oh wait, that doesn't make any sense. Okay. Okay. Cause usually when they do that beans, they have
2 (1m 37s):
To keep you a little away.
1 (1m 38s):
They have two sets of pills. Is it, was it syrup or pills?
2 (1m 42s):
It was syrup. It was like a deli, right? Yeah.
1 (1m 47s):
No. They had some kind of crack cocaine in there.
2 (1m 50s):
Real surprise.
1 (1m 51s):
Was it that your family was keeping you up? It was that,
2 (1m 55s):
No, it was that. And I didn't cough, which was great, but I didn't sleep like not at all, but that's okay. Because I watched the staircase, the news,
1 (2m 8s):
Toni Collette. Yes. Yes. I think it's great. And it's way more interesting than the actual story. So I don't know, but like I've seen 40 million documentaries on the staircase and this one is creepier and more compelling than any of the dikes. I mean, she's just so good. And like,
2 (2m 32s):
She is so
1 (2m 33s):
Good. And
2 (2m 35s):
Tell me what you think about the whole story itself. Like where do you fall on the line of whether he was guilty or not?
1 (2m 42s):
You know, here's the thing before I saw this version, I for sure. Thought he was guilty for sure. And now I don't know. I don't know. I am. I am completely. I w I don't know. What do you think?
2 (2m 59s):
Well, it's, it's, it's the most, I don't have a word for it, but it's the most of this thing I'm about to describe it's the most. Oh, I definitely think it was not him. Oh, I definitely think it was him. Oh, I definitely think it was not
1 (3m 15s):
Because
2 (3m 15s):
Every little twist and turn that comes up, it's like really? I think it is. I think the reason it is so vexing and perplexing is because it is a one in one Google Plex chance that the same person would be there for altar. I really don't think he killed her,
1 (3m 41s):
But it's like, yeah, the lady in Europe and all that shit, it's like, wait a minute. He's so fucking unlucky. Or he's like evil. And he just draws evil near him.
2 (3m 54s):
I got to say, I mean, not like I know, but I don't get evil vibes from him. I really don't. I think he's like a nice guy.
1 (4m 2s):
And if you watch interviews of the guy, like, you know, he had some weirdness, but here's the thing. You fucking interview my ass after something like, you're gonna be like, lock her up. She's fucking bonkers. So like, you know what I mean? Like if they interviewed me and after something bad happened, like some God forbid something happened to miles, right. And they're interviewing me and they listened. They go back and listen to our fucking podcast. They're going to be like,
2 (4m 30s):
Oh, this is great. This is exactly. I totally wanted to ask you that we're
1 (4m 34s):
Going to jail. We're going to jail.
2 (4m 37s):
If you, for whatever reason, committed a heinous crime today. And we were watching the docu-series about you. What would be the things that the audience would be going to see? She totally did it. Like, what would be these,
1 (4m 50s):
The, the, the, well, I've just seen, like how I evaded the law with my student loans. And I was like, I have a lawyer, how we talk about how, like, basically you should get away with basically anything you can get away with because we're an end-stage capitalism. They're like, oh, she did it the way I talked shit about like my family. They're probably like, oh yeah, like she was, she had a traumatized childhood. So she's like getting re oh my God. It just never
2 (5m 17s):
Snap. She
1 (5m 18s):
Snapped. She couldn't take it.
2 (5m 21s):
Well, here's what people would say about me. Well, she was never very friendly. She was really pretty cold. Actually had people in my town would be like, I knew it. I knew there was something about her that I just didn't like,
1 (5m 38s):
That's the kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because you have this way of coming off like that, even though it's not, it is not, it is not, I don't see it like that now. But when you talk about it, I'm like, oh yeah, I could kind of see. Yeah. But not really. I don't know.
2 (5m 54s):
It's that old thing of, you know, every, I used to always have the experience that people would say to me when I first met you, I thought you were a real bitch, but now, you know, now
1 (6m 4s):
Got it all. But I think I met you when you were really young.
2 (6m 7s):
We were really young and, and it just takes me a while to, to warm up to people. But anyway, yeah. Check it out. People, if you haven't seen the staircase series, I mean, I watched the documentary too, but the series is,
1 (6m 21s):
It's much more compelling and it's also just like art. It's like the story itself, the documentary is kind of boring. You're like, okay. And then this guy in his Vietnam history. Right. And that weirdness
2 (6m 33s):
Purple heart
1 (6m 34s):
Like that, maybe that, yeah. That's when I was like, oh, he's, nobody's just kind of a weird ego. He is, he's got us low self-esteem. He picks wives that are like, well, the second one, especially the high powered in some way,
2 (6m 49s):
I think too, we underestimate, especially now the impact of having to hide your sexual identity, that it I'll just say people who haven't done terrible things and have had to hide their sexual identity, deserve a purple heart because the aggression and the, and the
1 (7m 12s):
Self-loathing and the frustration and the, and the, it must feel torturous. Just torture us
2 (7m 19s):
Heartbreaks. Whenever I think about like the person, who's just like this person who lived a hundred years ago and they were stoned to death, or they, or they just lived a life of total misery because they had to completely lie about themselves
1 (7m 32s):
All the time and to themselves, to other people. Yeah, I, yeah. Yeah. I think that, yeah, his, his and I also, the older I get, like the more I know why people lie about having brave or, or things it's because they want that it's because look, they, they, they, they feel that they have done that in some way. Probably.
2 (7m 56s):
I want a purple heart for having three kids. I, even though nobody made me do it right. It was,
1 (8m 3s):
It doesn't matter. It's like we, we, being a human is hard and I understand the wanting to, to get something for the, for the suffering or to be recognized and seen for the hardships in our life. Like, I get that a hundred fucking percent.
2 (8m 21s):
That's all we want in life. We just want to be seen and recognized for the, or the challenges that we've overcome. And the,
1 (8m 34s):
Let me run this by. Yeah. I can totally say that I booked a national, I won't say what the company is, but I booked a national commercial, which is amazing and also hilarious. And I'm here to say, like I told my class, my class of two, my MFA students, I'm teaching them pilot writing and through Patrice. And I sent like, look, if I, as a 46 year old, half Latina plus size lady can book two national commercials. Like anything's possible. Like anything is possible. Cause they're, you know,
2 (9m 14s):
Because just as recently, as last week were like acting as for the birds.
1 (9m 19s):
Well, the thing is, yeah, right. And I still, that still stands true. However, what I love about this, and this is why I think I love commercials because there's in sag commercials. Usually there's no lines, right? Like it's all improv or MOS now, whatever it's called, like emotion over sound, people call it different things. I don't know. But anyway, no, no lines to memorize, which is great for my fears slash menopause brain fog. It's all literally all about your look and vibe. Like, I don't know. There's like, no people are gonna be like, she's a bitch, but like there's no real talent involved.
1 (9m 59s):
What it is is your personality. It's like, do you have a personality that can work on with these people? So I knew that I had nailed it because, and I was talking to therapy yesterday. Like, it doesn't always line up. Like usually if I'm lucky, this is how it goes. I go in, I do my best. I'm petrified. That comes across a little bit. Sometimes I eat by in the callback, but don't usually book. Right. I never have had the experience to be quite honest of like nailing it and feeling great about that and not booking it.
1 (10m 39s):
I usually book it when I feel like that. It's just so rare for me to feel like that. So I was like, I wonder if I felt like that all the time, if I would just book shit, I don't know how the universe works. I don't know, but I can't. Do
2 (10m 51s):
You do know? Cause you know that because you got all on this other vibe that you were not trying to get on for a while. That's why things are coalesced.
1 (10m 59s):
That's so true. Yeah. That's so true. But like, I, I don't, I don't have like evidence to show that like, you can feel really shitty about your audition and still book it every time. Because every time I feel really shitty, I do really shit. Like if I don't book it, so
2 (11m 15s):
You're aware I'm like
1 (11m 17s):
Hyper aware, but I knew it was a good sign when I got there and the casting director was there. And she, my experience of casting in LA is that they are, it's not that they're jerks, but they have an air about them. The casting directors, not, not the actors necessarily, but like, they're usually like 50 year old blonde ladies or blonde dudes that are like in their fifties, that really are tired of this. And I don't blame them. Like, they're tired of the shit and I get it, but this woman, and I will just say her name. Cause she's amazing. Her name is Jody Sonnenberg reminded me almost to the T of like a slight, slightly younger version of Mickey Paskal from Chicago casting.
1 (12m 3s):
And I adore Mickey and I kind of had the same vibe and I was like, and she was like, oh, I'm Jody. I was like, oh, you're so bad. You know, she was lovely. And I thought that's a good sign. Right. And then I, I didn't when I walked into the room, I just was completely relaxed. Like completely, it did not cross my mind to get nervous because I literally, these things are such a shot in the dark, like such a long shot that it's sort of like with like with like under 10 television rules, I, for some reason it feels like it's more possible so that I get more scared. Right.
1 (12m 43s):
There's for like a national commercial. You're like, this is like, there's like 500 Pete know like no way. So what, so then of course the pressure's off for me anyway. Some people might that might do a different trigger. So I walk in the room and there's of course like always it's hilarious. Like there's one director and then there's 10 advertising people, right? Like or eight advertising people. I don't know what they do. They were fine. They were lovely. Everyone was lovely and hilarious. And we laughed and we had fun. And then I, then I left and I said to miles, like, I can honestly say like I slaved that and it has nothing to do with acting.
2 (13m 23s):
It was just all about your, how you are in the room.
1 (13m 26s):
It's not about the, and I think that that's so true. Like it's not about the fucking acting now. People are probably like, oh my God, shut up. Because you know, we go to school for it. We do. But for this particular thing, it is literally about the vibe in the room with the director. Do you vibe with the people in the room and also are you willing to be loosey goosey? Like, can you just go with the flow whatever's happening? And, and cause everything is, you know, it's just like a very weird situation in terms of, you know, they're casting a lot of people. So there's, this is a huge commercial and that, I think there's like 10 rules, right? It's like a campaign.
1 (14m 6s):
It might be a back to school situation. I don't know what it is, but so they're all tired. Everyone is like, you know, they were all English. They were from Britain. You know, I, I don't know. We don't have, I guess we don't have people here. I don't know what's happening, but everyone came from London apparently to do this. And so that was, you know, like the team. And so I was like, okay, anyway, a blast. And so then I leave and I'm like, you know, that was so fun that it was legit. If I had taken a lie detector test beans and they had said like, do you care? Like, are you going to be devastated if you don't book this? I would've said no, because I really felt like I did my job for the first time in like two years. So yeah.
2 (14m 44s):
That's but it's just so hard to get to the place of relaxation, but what I think is, oh wait,
1 (14m 52s):
She has, okay, I'll talk. And then you can, so you'll remember. I know how this goes down the line. You remember? And then just interrupt me when you remember. So, okay. So I leave, I call my agent I, who I adore Cassie. She's my commercial agent. And she loves me. Look, they have not given up on me. This I have not booked anything since I moved here, since I signed with them, I signed with them in 2021 at the beginning, I think of 20, 21 or somewhere around there, maybe 20, no, 20, 20, 20, 20. And I have not looked a God damn thing. So I call Cassie who I saw from assistant to she's moved your way up and all that time. And I called her and left her a voicemail. And then she wrote me back and said, your voicemail, your, I loved your voicemail.
1 (15m 36s):
And then she wrote me back and said, your feeling was right. You're on check avail for the other, for the, well, we'll cut it up, whatever. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. And then I just got to think saying, congratulations, you booked it. And I was like, like,
2 (15m 50s):
Well, I remember the thing I was going to say. I bet you the apropos of what you were saying about how it's not about the acting. I bet you, the number one thing that a person who's casting a commercial does not want to see on somebody's resume is that they went to theater school. Right. Because we're going to be in especially recent grads, like taking it very seriously and not just working on the part of you have just what you said, having the vibe being in the room. I told my son that you got this, he was excited for you. And he, because he's, you know, like we all are preoccupied with money. He's like, how much does she going to make? And I told him what you thought you thought it was.
2 (16m 32s):
And he goes, you know what, that's great. But honestly, he did one commercial. He did like a JCPS.
1 (16m 43s):
I saw it. It's not as real maybe or something.
2 (16m 46s):
I would rather work for five weeks for, you know, whatever, like a quarter of that, that, because he hated filming it, the commercial, they were just all dancing.
1 (17m 3s):
And so
2 (17m 3s):
They listened to the same song for eight hours and he's a musician. He was really going crazy by the end. He was really like, I can't believe we have to listen to the song again. So
1 (17m 15s):
That's hilarious. Like
2 (17m 17s):
We say, this is, you know, the reason that these things are well paid is because you spent two years back,
1 (17m 27s):
It's pay. I, and I never, I, yeah. They're paying you for all the millions of auditions, one millions, all the whatevers, the magicians, tens of auditions. You've done that. You've never heard anything. And rightly so, like most of them, like most of them, I haven't done what, like I, in the callback, my last callback before this was for something I can't even, oh, like a lot of commercial and I did not, I did not nail it. I, and also it was my first one back in person and like Gina, they, no one was in the room. They were all in, in a sound overhead and they hit the camera, they hit the screen. So I didn't know who was, it was the most bizarre thing.
1 (18m 9s):
And then they were giving me direction and I, I just screwed it up. There was not good. And I, and I watched that commercial, the lotto commercial and it, and it was really funny and they did a great job, but it wasn't a national, so I feel better. I mean, I could have done whatever the point is.
2 (18m 23s):
What if you became this brand spokesperson? Like isn't that the holy grail?
1 (18m 29s):
Yeah. Yeah. I would do it. Great. Make me the blank, the blank person.
2 (18m 34s):
A black person. Yeah. Well, congratulations. That is really, really cool.
1 (18m 38s):
Did you, you didn't watch Trent, did you tread the documentary about Marvin?
2 (18m 45s):
I totally went off my radar screen. I forgot it.
1 (18m 49s):
So we'll talk about it next time, but suffice, everyone watched this. It's not actually that good, but I want to know if I'm the only lunatic that really identifies with Marvin and in this documentary on Netflix called tread TRCA D and tell me if I'm a lunatic, because I left feeling, I stopped watching it feeling like I really relate to Marvin and I think he did the right thing. He also, no, but he fucking bulldozed the town.
2 (19m 17s):
Oh, right, right, right, right, right.
1 (19m 19s):
So we'll talk, we can talk about it at a later time, but everyone just please watch tread. And, and can you like send us an email or something and let me know if you identify with mark or the town, because I'm on team mark all the way. I fucking wanted him to pull up
2 (19m 36s):
Great name. I mean, honestly, it's a really good day. Okay, cool.
1 (19m 41s):
Yeah.
2 (19m 42s):
That's something I want to run by you is, oh, no. Just to say, I recently read or I'm no, I'm in the middle of reading. BJ Novak spoke of stories that it came out a while
1 (19m 57s):
Ago. I'd never read it. Okay. Tell
2 (19m 59s):
I never read it. I, I don't know why it just didn't call to me, but it's a book of stories and you know, this may not be a new thing. It may not be something he came up with, but it was the first time I'd really read their fictional stories. It's not essays, it's not memoir. I mean, some of it might've been true, but they're fictional stories and he they're very good. And some of them are a paragraph long and some of them are 10 pages long. And I realized, I have a notes thing with like a hundred little bits of ideas.
2 (20m 39s):
And I kind of think that that's what he had with these stories. He had like a, a premise that sounded, or like just a, kind of a joke element that he wanted. And he just turned it into a story. So it has been very inspiring for me. And I'm like really going to try to write a book of stories.
1 (20m 59s):
I think you should. And I think I've always thought you should put, be published. Like, I always think like you should publish your stuff. It reads really well on the page. And like, I just am all for it. And then, and yeah.
2 (21m 12s):
Yeah. My obstacle will be of course, believing in myself, you know, but, but I'm like ready to accept that challenge. I think I've done
1 (21m 23s):
Enough work, dude, enough
2 (21m 24s):
Work on like, just trying to get myself through the basics.
1 (21m 30s):
Believe me. I, that leads me to what I wanted to ask you. And I talked a little bit about this with you on the phone, but okay. So I'm inviting alumni to the LA meet and greet Fucking shit. Are the reactions. Everyone is traumatized by the school. Some more than others. I won't mention names, but what I will say is you want to, you want to get a mixed bag, invite alumni from theater school to come to a theater school, meet and greet in LA whole. It ranges from basically, fuck you leave me alone. I wish that place was burned to the ground to, oh my God.
1 (22m 14s):
I am so excited. I can't wait to be there. I'm going to go. I can't wait. Can I bring my family too? Yeah. Which is great. I said, sure, what is it a bar, but okay. And it was like little kids. I don't know. I said, well, do whatever to I'm on like the, you know, the fans, the like the working, working people are all shooting things like, you know, I will mention, cause they're lovely. John Hooga knocker. And Dave
1 (22m 54s):
So. Okay. That's great. And to people that just start like, no, thanks pass.
2 (23m 3s):
I want to acknowledge here. One is you did wow. An incredible amount of work. And like, there is so much value add to what you've done. I hope the school recognizes that. And, and the other is, yeah, it brings up all of the things. It brings up all of the emotions. It brings up all of the traumas. This is why people struggle about whether or not they're going to go to their high school reunion.
1 (23m 29s):
Right. Or whether or not there, I was going to say also to come on the show, our show. It's like, they're like, if you haven't done the healing work and believe me, it's not easy work. And I actually don't do a lot of work. Maybe like humans until I'm forced to, maybe we all do that until it's like, I cannot function unless I move through something. So I get it. But if we have not done the work of like healing something, it does, it would be like a fucking nightmare. Like you'd rather fucking get a staph infection, then go to the fucking bar and see the theater school people. Yeah.
2 (24m 6s):
If I were still a therapist, I'd be, I'd say, no, I don't. I don't think I've. I just don't like,
1 (24m 15s):
Like excited except for, I w I may see people I don't want to see and you know who that is. And so it's like, ah, but I'm willing to do it. I'm ringing Gisa. She didn't go to the theater school, but she went to DePaul and she's like, I want to go, she's excited to get the fuck out of the house. And so she's like, I'm coming. I'm like, great. The more the merrier. So it's going to be like this, Joe is coming, Joe was a seal. So we're just going to go. And I'm going to say, I'm doing it for the kids. Like literally do it for the kids. They're very excited. And I don't know who will show up, but I will be there. And also like, I am just so grateful that I, I, even if it's uncomfortable to see certain people, like if, if, if, you know, I don't think he'll come.
1 (24m 56s):
But of course that, that email for John C. Riley, that I keep using to try to get them to be on our show. I also, and then is through his reps. I also sent the invite. Like if he shows that will be weird, but it'll be a funny story. So what I'm saying is I'm really glad that we did this podcast because I, as, as sort of uncomfortable as I would be, I'm still going to be uncomfortable like that, but it's not going to be trauma. I don't think it's going to be as like trauma inducing and as triggering as if I had never done any other work.
2 (25m 31s):
Yeah. And, you know, I think when we talk about doing the work, I think it can sound really. Hm. Like don't like to too much, but actually I'm realizing as you're talking that maybe even the biggest part of the work is deciding you want to do it. Like that's the, maybe the hardest part. And then just being in control of it, like being the person, who's guiding it as, because that's what happens. That's what we're avoiding. When we're avoiding traumatic responses was we're avoiding the things that we can't control just coming at us. And then all we can do is be defensive as opposed to, you know, I'm going to go towards it so that I can have some control over, you know, what the first moments of it are like.
2 (26m 17s):
So for people who are change, curious healing, think, think about that. Think about how the hardest part of this is really deciding that you want to face it and everything after that is like, oh, no, that was today
7 (26m 43s):
On the podcast. We are talking to Sunni a talk Ashima to me was a theater studies person at the theater school. And at Tisch before taking a bunch of unexpected twists and turns in her life. So please enjoy our conversation will assume the HR Kashima
2 (27m 7s):
Living in New York is constantly bombarded with visual and stimulation, whether you like it or not in the hospital. So I heard 24 hour siren, Sumi tech, Ashima. Congratulations. You survived theater school. In which program were you in? At the theater school?
9 (27m 32s):
I was in the production program. Okay. I'm a backstage person. Okay.
2 (27m 37s):
Okay. Did you do that? Did you want to do that all through high school? Or when did you first know you wanted to do that?
9 (27m 43s):
I did. I was my middle school. Did a musical every spring. They used the orchestra, the middle school orchestra as a pit orchestra. And, oh, it was amazing.
1 (27m 57s):
I
9 (27m 58s):
Thought, I thought this was how it was done. And then with my own kids, I realized I was very lucky and I did. I signed up for all of the crews that I could possibly do. I did makeup, I did costumes. I helped backstage whatever I could do. And then I volunteered at the hangar theater over the summer and I grew up in Ethica, New York. So I was at the hangar theater. Okay.
2 (28m 22s):
Yeah. Do you know Johanna, she talked about the hanger on,
9 (28m 28s):
I have to say I'm very bad remembering any names.
1 (28m 33s):
So we're, we, we, we, we had a whole, I mean, if you've listened at all to our show, a large part of us is just like, wait, what happened with who? Wait. And then when I see people's faces, I'm like, oh yeah, I remember this human. Like,
9 (28m 48s):
Yeah.
1 (28m 49s):
Anyway. Okay. So the hanger, so you,
9 (28m 51s):
So I fell in love. That was it. I was just, I couldn't believe it. It was amazing every night was this, you were just transformed into this. You were in this other world. And I thought that I couldn't imagine life not doing this for the rest of my life.
1 (29m 9s):
What do you think? What do you attribute that to? Like, what, where did that love come from? Where your, was your family a big arts family or was it, how did that happen?
9 (29m 19s):
My, my, my mom's side was a big arts family, like ballet and singing. And my mom was a visual artist. She went to NYU for, for art. So she was a fine art major, but she also had a lot of issues that made being at home, not where I wanted to ever be.
1 (29m 44s):
Understood.
9 (29m 44s):
So I signed up for every activity I, anything I could do in the school. I did, you know, if it didn't cost extra money, I didn't need a ride. And theater took it to a whole other level because it brought the, brought me to another world. It didn't matter. You know, it was just, I was really good backstage and I loved it. And I loved the show every night and the different energy that every show brought with the audience. And I thought, well, this, it doesn't matter. What's at home. I have this.
2 (30m 20s):
This is the, I've always wondered this about people who love to be backstage, but they don't like to be on stage. Is it this? How does it compare the thrill of being backstage versus in the, in the audience? If you're not performing, you know, not, not onstage.
9 (30m 38s):
Oh, I'm terrible in the audience.
1 (30m 40s):
Oh. Why say why you get nervous? Are you
9 (30m 43s):
No. In the odd, if I'm in the audience, I'm thinking about what they're doing backstage. I'm wondering if somebody messed something up
1 (30m 52s):
Or
9 (30m 53s):
I I'm thinking about the mechanics of how it's running smoothly or if it transitions too fast or I can't. Yeah. No, my kids hate it. If I go to any of their, my daughter is natural actress and you, we thought drama classes would help her to control the inner drama.
1 (31m 15s):
No, probably brought it out more. Yeah. Yeah. I brought it out more. Yeah. Well,
2 (31m 19s):
Wouldn't it be fair to say that? Well, how you just described the experience made me think, oh, you like to see how things are made.
9 (31m 29s):
I like to see how things are made. I, I like to try and improve upon them.
1 (31m 34s):
You're like an engineer, an engineer, like in your brain right now.
2 (31m 40s):
Tell us about the process of deciding, okay, this is, I'm going to study this for college. And then what it was like in the, in the program, if it, if it was what you expected it to be,
9 (31m 52s):
It was great. I actually, in retrospect, of course, because that's how we see everything when we're smarter. I should've stayed at DePaul because it was a really great program. I wanted to get out of Africa. I went to visit Chicago a couple of times and I loved the big city, but it wasn't too big. And the program was actually really amazing.
1 (32m 19s):
You didn't stay, you left. I feel like you were there you time. No. Okay.
9 (32m 25s):
You kept hearing. I transferred to Tish.
1 (32m 29s):
Oh, this is coming back to my
9 (32m 31s):
Second year. Yeah. I transferred to Tish and I just thought that because when I was in high school, I intimidated by the NYU essay. So I did not apply. And I had this moment and one of my, you know, all nighters in Chicago where I said, you know what, I'm going to write that essay. And I sat down and I wrote it in like 20 minutes. Thank goodness. They hadn't changed the question. And then I called my mom of all people who I never called my mom. And I woke her up in the middle of the night so I could read her my essay.
1 (33m 13s):
It sounds like your mom was a complicated lady.
9 (33m 16s):
She was, she always supported me and my younger sister, 110%, always in whatever we wanted to do, but she didn't want us to leave the house.
1 (33m 29s):
She was like that.
9 (33m 31s):
So
1 (33m 33s):
She was afraid or
9 (33m 35s):
She was afraid. She was afraid. And you know, she had lived in New York city and I was actually just cleaning out the house recently. And I found some really nice black and white prints that she had taken when she was a student. And they were of like, there was, I found a picture of MacDougal street down the block from the player's theater, where I was an assistant stage manager on a show there. And it was a picture of the cafe where I used to get my coffee before going
1 (34m 7s):
To the theater.
9 (34m 10s):
And I couldn't believe it. And I'm like, why didn't we ever talk about this? So yeah, it was, she was very supportive. Yes. But she didn't something happen along the way where she just, you know, became consumed by all of the bad things that could happen in the
1 (34m 28s):
World. She got very afraid. It was
9 (34m 30s):
Just, and that was it.
1 (34m 33s):
She stayed in the house.
9 (34m 35s):
She mostly stayed in the house and that was hard because then I just mostly wanted to get out of the house.
2 (34m 41s):
Did you absorb any of her fears?
9 (34m 49s):
You know, I talk to my kids really realistically and I say, listen, there's some really bad things out there and bad people. And I don't want you to be afraid to try new things or go new places. I just want you to be aware and observant and just, you know,
1 (35m 13s):
Right.
9 (35m 13s):
Make good choices.
1 (35m 15s):
Yeah.
9 (35m 16s):
That's, that's all we can do because we would never do anything. We would never do anything. We would never go
1 (35m 25s):
Anywhere. That's not a life. Right.
2 (35m 27s):
But so, but DePaul, wasn't cutting it for you. What, what was not working?
9 (35m 32s):
It was the city.
1 (35m 33s):
Oh, you? Oh,
9 (35m 34s):
It was really, it was Chicago. I had, I don't know. It wasn't, it wasn't my, it just, I didn't feel comfortable
1 (35m 49s):
Really. Was it like, I
9 (35m 51s):
Really wanted to go to the New York city and it was, there was like a small town feeling about Chicago and that might've been because of the theater school.
1 (36m 2s):
Yeah. I mean, I think that going back, like looking back at Chicago now, I'm like, oh yeah. And, and I don't, it does, it feels really the theater school in general. Like the whole idea and Lincoln park feels like a small suburb kind of thing that happens there. And Lincoln park is also like, not indicative of the rest of the city at all, in some ways,
2 (36m 27s):
Because it's so segregated
1 (36m 28s):
And white it's so rich it's so, and that's where we were. And also you're from the east coast. Right. So you, New York is the place to be like that. I get it, but that's pretty brave. So you just were like, I'm outta here or how did that?
9 (36m 45s):
Yeah, it was, it was scary, but everything we do, that's scary makes us stronger. And it's one less thing we're scared of. And it took me on a different journey because as soon as I got to Tisch, I realized I hadn't really thought it through and I didn't have the money. I hadn't worked out the tuition
1 (37m 7s):
Shit.
9 (37m 9s):
Yeah. So I didn't stay at Tisch. My dad was pretty upset. He, he asked why I didn't call him that he would have just paid the tuition.
1 (37m 20s):
Oh, you left? Okay. We wait, we got it back up here.
9 (37m 24s):
Yeah. I left like, within that first year at Tisch, I left and I started, I was waitressing and a couple of bars and I was, you know, looking for a retail job and it took me on a whole other, and I was doing like free theater, any kind of theater gigs I could get just to keep my resume fresh and current all the time and to make those connections. And yeah, it was a whole, then there was like a whole other life started
1 (37m 50s):
Shit. So did you, you didn't when you left DePaul, like, did you like the classes at DePaul and H and the city wasn't around was the whole thing just lame to you?
9 (37m 60s):
No, I really loved the classes and I still, I still have my HDL Nope.
1 (38m 6s):
HDL. We need to
2 (38m 9s):
Send them to us. I would love to look at them,
9 (38m 12s):
Loved that class. It was like the best history class ever. What a great way to learn about history, actually
2 (38m 20s):
Point what a great point I did take advantage of it. I did not have that positive confirmation then, but the, actually that's a really excellent point because that's the only way I ever learned anything by history anyway, is through narrative through, through story. Okay. So, but what was the goal when you were still in the schools? What was the goal to develop a skill set and so that you were employable or were you not necessarily sure that that's what you were going to do for your career?
9 (38m 53s):
I wanted to spend, I wanted to work in theater. That was my, what I wanted to do, but I wasn't sure what I wanted to do if I, you know, and towards the end of DePaul, I kind of got into stage managing and I thought, oh, I really like this because you know, you're involved in all facets of the show from the beginning to the end. And so if something happens, you know, where it came from and you know where it's going and you could, it's better. It's easier to fix it that way. Or, you know, I
1 (39m 29s):
Feel
9 (39m 29s):
Like, so I, yeah, I started stage managing.
1 (39m 32s):
I have this thing about stage managing where all the stage managers that I've worked with have this thing in common, which is the ability to get shit done and also save the day. But aren't usually egomaniacs. Do you relate to that? Like, like they're like superheroes without needing people to think they're superheroes and being glamorous.
9 (39m 58s):
I don't want any attention. I think that's, you know, I would prefer not to be on this stage. I like being backstage. You don't need to thank me for anything. Just do your
1 (40m 8s):
Job,
9 (40m 9s):
Do your job. And I'm happy if I can make things better.
2 (40m 15s):
So, but when you left Tish and you left for financial reasons, you were just working, but then how did you get back into a groove of whatever you were going to do next in your life?
9 (40m 27s):
Well, I, I had a day job. I became one of those day job people. So I worked part-time in retail. I worked weekends at a bar and then everything would stop if I got a gig. So if it was costumes or set or they needed a stage manager, it didn't matter if it was paid or not. Cause I had my day job, I would take the work. So I was, I was working on small shows all the time. And then I started working at urban Outfitters where as a manager, I had paid vacation and I was, you know, 19 or 20 years old, this is great.
9 (41m 12s):
So I started backpacking in central America and that was like a whole other segment. So I would work on shows in between my two paid vacations each year. And then I would go on these like seven, 10 day excursions getting off the plane and saying, okay, well where am I going to go first? And so that was, you know,
1 (41m 39s):
No, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Here's my thing. Like, I, it's so interesting that you had a ma where your parents divorced or together. Yes. Okay. So that's cause my first question was like, you didn't call your dad when you, he was like, why didn't you call me? So there's clearly like some kind of thing there where you didn't feel like you could call your dad and be like, Hey, can you hook me up with some money for NYU? Why didn't you do that?
9 (42m 2s):
I didn't want to, I didn't want to be, my mom was always calling my dad. I didn't want to call my dad for money. I wanted to be self-sufficient, you know, I, I visited schools on my own. I filled out my financial aid applications on my own. You know, I went to DePaul on a merit scholarship. And so I, I, I honestly, I, I didn't occur to me to call and say, Hey daddy, can I have a 10 grand
2 (42m 37s):
You're at this really interesting mix of like a risk taker and very pragmatic because people who are stage managers have to be extremely practical and pragmatic. And I maybe it's maybe it's congruous that there's risk takers, but I don't feel like at the stage managers I've met necessarily that, that bill. So I mean, how does, is that, am I right? Is that a dichotomy or no?
9 (43m 6s):
Well, you know, as a stage manager, I would say you have to be really good at improv. Yeah. But you can't be good at the improv if you don't have a really sound foundation. So if you don't know all the components and you're not comfortable with them and you don't fully understand what the end goal is, it's really hard to, to take risks in the middle. You need to, you know, like sometimes you need to have to fix something and the answer is not always handed to you, so you have to improvise and you have to be what, you know, that's a risk.
1 (43m 43s):
Okay. So to me, I just heard a story. What would you do in this situation about stage managers, where the stage manager in London maybe had to go on? Did you hear about this as an actor? It was some big west end show at the, like everyone got COVID or something like every, like, and they still wanted to do the show and the freaking stage manager, what are new the lions. And when, of course, and what would you do it
9 (44m 13s):
If I had to,
1 (44m 14s):
This is what we're talking about. These are the kinds of people I want in the foxhole. Someone who would do it, if you, yeah, holy shit. See, this is what are these really true theater heroes? Like people who would be like, you know, if I had to do it, I would do it. And this is who I'd want as a stage manager running thing. That's amazing.
2 (44m 33s):
So I feel like you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who's maybe in a program now for, for stage management, who would answer that question the same way that you did
1 (44m 45s):
Really well,
2 (44m 46s):
Only because, and I, I'm going to try to say this about casting aspersions, cause I really don't have any judgment about it, but it just, it seems to me like we're in this age of like recognizing limits in a more realistic way and not doing this theater at all, costs blood, sweat, and tears. The show must go on. I feel like people today would say the show does not need to go on. I don't know if that's the right answer or not. I mean, I only know. So
9 (45m 23s):
If the audience shows up, the show has to go on.
1 (45m 26s):
Yeah. So there's the other thing it's like, there is this sort of a flip side to the reckoning in American theater and the arts in general, which is the boundaries, which people are setting. Part of me is like right on. And the other part of me is like, this would never fly when I was a 20 something. Like you fucking just do the thing. Like I did. We did that show with right at the Merle reskin with, with Kate McKiernan or whoever with it, your piece and I, and the stage manager feeding the lines. So, so yeah, but we did it and let me tell you something, I'm glad we did, because it did prove to us that like live theater shit happens and also you can do it.
1 (46m 9s):
So there's something about like, you can do it. It will be okay versus no, this is uncomfortable. Shut the shit down. Right? So it's like a line
9 (46m 17s):
And you can apply it. You can apply it to anything in life that any situation where the plan doesn't go according to plan. And if you, I think if you have a theater background, you'll be fine. Like, no problem we'll do this.
2 (46m 37s):
So you're bumping along, working during the day and doing shows at some point did I mean, because what typically happens to people as they do that for whatever it is, 10 years, and then they go
9 (46m 48s):
Seven years, seven years,
2 (46m 50s):
You went back to school.
9 (46m 51s):
I went back to school, I went to hunter, hunter college, very, very inexpensive. And you know, they had a pretty decent program. I really enjoyed the academics because when I was at DePaul, I have no memory of my academics.
1 (47m 10s):
So there you go.
9 (47m 11s):
I took that to they're on my transcript. I have no memory. I took that class. Right. No memory. So I really being a little more mature. I really enjoyed the academics and I took more than I needed because it was so inexpensive. I'm like, this looks good. This looks in terms of the theater department. I am sorry to say I was a snob. Yeah.
1 (47m 37s):
So you were like, this sucks is what basically what
9 (47m 39s):
I was a total snob. I'm like, I'm just here to finish. I don't really need this. I've been doing this for years.
2 (47m 47s):
That's not up to par.
9 (47m 49s):
It just wasn't, it wasn't like a, it wasn't a hands-on program. I mean, they had, you know, you had your director project, you know, your director shows and I did do some hands-on stuff, but it wasn't
1 (48m 4s):
Professional. It wasn't,
9 (48m 6s):
It's not a conservatory, you know. And
1 (48m 9s):
Did you major, did you do a major and all that shit in
9 (48m 13s):
My major was in theater and Spanish literature.
2 (48m 21s):
Oh, so that's the central America thing. I was wondering how you got,
1 (48m 24s):
Right?
9 (48m 24s):
Right.
1 (48m 25s):
Okay. So w hunter is hunter and Queens? No,
9 (48m 29s):
No. It's in Manhattan.
1 (48m 30s):
Okay. So you went there and what was the goal to get a degree or?
9 (48m 35s):
Yeah, so the goal was to finish my degree and to add something more practical to it.
1 (48m 41s):
I eat
9 (48m 42s):
The Spanish. I thought, well, I could teach if I had to, I could always go and teach, which is ironic because now all of these years later, I've just submitted my credentials to get a substitute teaching certificate. Because with my three kids, I can't really figure out how to work
1 (49m 5s):
In the theater, a job
2 (49m 8s):
Speak
1 (49m 9s):
During the
9 (49m 9s):
School day
2 (49m 10s):
On it. Yes, absolutely.
9 (49m 12s):
I'd like a, my, my freedom is confined to the school day. So like, it's hard. I can get, you know, I even retail and
1 (49m 24s):
Say,
9 (49m 25s):
I can only work between nine and two. When my kids are in school, I need my weekends off and the patient
1 (49m 32s):
Then COVID and then might have to go home if they do homeschool. Right.
9 (49m 36s):
And then somebody is sick and then,
2 (49m 39s):
And it's snow days. It can come in with that. Yeah. No, it's,
9 (49m 42s):
It's been especially so, but I, I skipped a whole other chapter when I finished. That's where I am now. When I finished at hunter, that was the same year. My dad passed away in a house fire.
1 (49m 59s):
How, when, what, what year was this?
9 (50m 2s):
2003. Okay.
1 (50m 4s):
Shit that, where was he was he?
9 (50m 9s):
He was in Albany. He worked for the New York state department of labor as an analyst,
1 (50m 13s):
W w
9 (50m 14s):
And a fire started. And
1 (50m 20s):
Holy shit, that was it.
9 (50m 22s):
So that, and the last few years he had been traveling down to the city for work. He was assessing social workers in the field and retraining. And so he was in the city every week and we would have lunch every week. And I was finally getting to know this person. I never really knew thinking, wow, you're really cool. You know, cause mom trash talked you all those years and I'm so glad that we have this time. So
1 (50m 52s):
How long did that happen to me that you were with, that you reconnected? Like how many years did you have good years with him?
9 (51m 1s):
It was about, I would say, let's see, I moved to New York in 95 and maybe around 97. He started coming down to the city, regular
1 (51m 9s):
Like seven years, like five years to six years. Oh.
9 (51m 14s):
But I thought I had forever. I thought I had forever. So I wasn't in a rush to ask him questions or, you know, so I was lost, totally lost after that.
1 (51m 28s):
Holy shit. I am so sorry. I was,
9 (51m 31s):
I was working in commercial print as a associate producer at the time. And
1 (51m 40s):
It just called you and said this happened,
9 (51m 44s):
Or the sheriff called me and were like, and said, you know, we've been trying to get ahold of you. There was a fire yesterday,
10 (51m 52s):
You know,
2 (51m 54s):
Are you an only child?
9 (51m 56s):
I have a younger sister,
10 (51m 58s):
So
1 (51m 59s):
Holy shit. So that is horrific.
9 (52m 4s):
So I spent weekends going up to Albany and like, like a crazy person digging through the rubble to see if I could salvage anything,
1 (52m 13s):
Literally there's rebel. And literally, did you salvage anything?
9 (52m 19s):
I have, I still have bins of smoke stuff like in the basement and Ethica. That's like the last of what I have to clear out of the house in Ethica. My mom was in the house, so yeah, I was totally lost. So I, I took time off and I went to Japan.
10 (52m 39s):
Wow.
9 (52m 41s):
And I got to know my dad through where he came from.
2 (52m 48s):
Oh my God, you learn?
9 (52m 51s):
I learned that he wasn't so strange. I learned that, you know, his, his silence and his mannerisms and, you know, all of that was just, he was just very Japanese.
1 (53m 5s):
And I think that we're in a culture that we don't, It's interesting with this resurgence of podcasting or podcasting coming about. But like, we don't like to ask a lot of questions. And I feel like the only time I asked a questions of my parents were when they were dying, literally like when they were alive, it was too scary. It would open up too many cans of worms. Like, why are you guys so fucked up? It's not really a question, you know, but when they were dying, I could do that. But with your dad, you didn't have warning that was happening. And also with your mom, it sounds like, it just sounds like maybe it was too complicated to get to know her while she was alive.
1 (53m 45s):
Right. Like,
9 (53m 46s):
Yes. Yes. And at the end she, she couldn't speak. So she's, she had multiple sclerosis and you know, which probably she could have received some sort of therapy for earlier on. Had she let any doctor actually diagnose her? Because if
1 (54m 10s):
You don't leave the house, it's really hard to get support.
2 (54m 13s):
Yeah. You're making me realize that. Cause I, I treated a few people when I was a therapist who were, who were hoarding. I, this is sounds very obvious now, but for some reason, I hadn't really thought about it in this way. That, that the hoarding is all about keeping everything inside. And it goes hand in hand with a girl phobia. I am sure to hoarding is about, I refuse to open the box because if I open the
1 (54m 44s):
Box, I will die.
2 (54m 46s):
I will die. I will never come back from that place. It's so interesting. It's so interesting. Like the things are representative of the feelings and the unexpressed thoughts and probably unprocessed trauma it's and, and having in at least one case gone to the home of one of these people, it's this very strange dichotomy of, I'm seeing everything about your illness in every square inch of this apartment, but you don't want to tell me anything about what's going on inside of you.
2 (55m 28s):
It was maddening her. Do you know anything about her, where she came from or what
9 (55m 36s):
She grew up in a conservative Jewish household in Sullivan county, just outside of the city. You know, her, her father was a painter,
1 (55m 49s):
Fine arts,
9 (55m 51s):
A fine arts painter of fine arts painter. You know, we have some paintings of his in the hat. There's so many paintings and he gave, he would go to like the senior center and give art lessons and he would go, you know, he was, he, he was like a very likable, charismatic person. He would go to the diners whenever I would visit, he would go to the diners and say, oh, today's my birthday. You know, I, I should get a free ice cream for himself.
1 (56m 23s):
Okay.
9 (56m 25s):
So
1 (56m 26s):
My question then is like growing up, did you feel like now we have more of a sort of like mixed kid kind of a thing. I'm a mixed kid, like, you know, half Latina. Okay. Did you w what was your relationship like with that being half Japanese half? Did you do what I did, which is just pretend I had nothing in me,
9 (56m 50s):
It was really hard with my name. And I was also, you know, it, it was tough. It was really tough. I was like the Chinese kid with glasses. That's what people would call me. And they didn't understand how I was Japanese and I couldn't speak Japanese. And the reason I couldn't speak Japanese was because the doctors told my mom, don't let dad use Japanese. Cause she'll have trouble in school, which is, you know, now we know it's the opposite. So when my dad died, I started studying Japanese so that I could communicate with all of my family and a little bit, I mean, not so much now,
1 (57m 33s):
But you did learn
9 (57m 33s):
Because I did learn it. I speak like a child. I was better. I actually, when I came back from Japan, the first time I decided that I was going to go to grad school, my dad would be happy if I went to grad school, that's what he wanted me to do. I was going to get back on track. I was good. So I applied to grad school for actually set design because in my travels of working on shows, I discovered I really loved designing sets. And I was offered early acceptance to Carnegie Mellon and to the Mason gross school at Rutgers.
9 (58m 18s):
And then I didn't. And then I found out I was pregnant. So that put me on another chapter, which brought me to take, so our first born, we named Hiroshi after my dad. And I said, well, if his name is Hiroshi, he has to grow up speaking Japanese. Or at least he has to know it or something about it, something more than I did. So I moved to Japan with him.
1 (58m 46s):
Yeah.
9 (58m 48s):
My husband stayed here. He got a tiny apartment and I took the baby to Japan and we were there a little less than a year. And I realized when we come back, I still am not going to be any more fluent. So I started a Japanese preschool in the east village and I hired all. Yes.
1 (59m 9s):
Wow.
9 (59m 10s):
And I ran it.
1 (59m 11s):
What the fuck is happening here? I feel like you've had 730 lines, a lot of lives.
9 (59m 18s):
Well, that's why I keep forgetting things. It's oh, oh, that was,
1 (59m 21s):
You gotta write it down. You gotta write it down.
9 (59m 25s):
So I had the business for seven years and every couple of years I would take the kid and then the two kids, and then the three kids to Japan, I'd rent like a furnished apartment. I'd force all the family members to get together. We would see all my friends who had left New York and moved back to Japan. And we would go to all the summer festivals that we could find. And I would drag them on all the different kinds of shin concept and to all the
1 (59m 53s):
WhatsApp,
9 (59m 55s):
It bullet train. I would, I, and I would do the same things every time we went, because I wanted to kind of like this tradition, or at least the sensory memories where if they go back, they can say,
1 (1h 0m 9s):
Ah,
9 (1h 0m 10s):
Can I say,
1 (1h 0m 12s):
It's so funny, you stage manage the shit out of their childhood.
2 (1h 0m 19s):
Yeah. You're parenting them the way you wish you were parented.
9 (1h 0m 22s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 0m 23s):
Yeah. Well, to me, the other thing that I'm noticing is like, you have created a life. You have, your life is like intense seems to be intentionally created in a certain way. Now that I think, I guess it's like, you've just became, it seems like you became hyper intentional about the way that you're raising your kids.
2 (1h 0m 49s):
Like random. Yeah.
9 (1h 0m 52s):
Yeah. I mean, probably to a fault.
1 (1h 0m 54s):
Other interesting thing is like the, for me, that, that in your DNA, like your dad was a woodworker, right? So he's an artist, your grandfather's a painter. Your mom was a paid a fine artist. So you didn't, you come from a family of artists. So like that, that was there. So it's interesting all the hoarding and all the separation and all the weirdness, it's like the arts are still in the DNA, even if it gets up with a bunch of shit.
9 (1h 1m 22s):
And my husband's side, there's art also. So, you know, it's, you know, it's just beating them over the head, but we let them find their own path.
2 (1h 1m 32s):
And where are you sitting now with your own creative desires and intentions?
9 (1h 1m 38s):
Well, that's the thing. That's where I'm like, oh, well, everyone's doing great. And now, you know what happened to the track that I was on. So it's funny because I decided, okay, now I'm going to go back to grad school. So if there's one thing I could say is, first of all, try to finish the first school you go to don't transfer and then second go to grad school right away and get it out of the way. Get it done before you have kids. Because I kept saying every two years, I'm like, oh, you know, I could have finished it already. Oh, I could have finished it. However busy. I thought I was two years later, I would think, wow, now I'm busier.
1 (1h 2m 14s):
Great. Like those things, you know, when you, I liked, when you said, if you could say anything, you would say, don't transfer, get it done, go to grad school right away. Because what did those things to me signify to you? Like, what do they represent to you? Like finishing those things, like the grad degree in that I'm just curious, like for you
9 (1h 2m 31s):
Getting that, that grad degree, I would love, honestly, I would love to, I would love to teach not little kids. I don't have the patience for little kids. I thought I did. And I was kind of looking at grad school for education, but I'm not going to do that.
1 (1h 2m 47s):
So w w what would you like to teach? Like, what if you had your, like, ah, my wish for you is that you go to grad school right. Very soon. And that you do the thing you want to do. And like, what would that be? Like? What would the teaching be? What would you want to teach?
9 (1h 3m 4s):
You know, that's a good question. That's a good question. When the programs I was looking at this year were actually for research administration and compliance, because which is kind of like stage managing, right? And I thought I could have a bigger impact in a nonprofit environment. You know, I do a lot of volunteer work And I kind of thought that this would be a good way to combine the skillset I have from all of my different experiences, managing and directing, whether it was theater or preschool or my own business or retail, whatever it is, it's all the same skill sets you need.
9 (1h 3m 47s):
Right. It really is. If you come, if you break it down and then I could apply it to, to deuce to contribute something to the greater good and have benefits and have a paycheck and all of that stuff that I started out having that as like a mom, I kind of lost along the way where it was something I was doing for myself where it wasn't just like, I'm doing this because I needed it. It's I'm doing this because this is the job I want to be doing.
1 (1h 4m 14s):
Right. And I also think that there is something coming to me. It's so funny as we do these interviews with people, I have these like weird witchy things that happened to me, where I get a sense of what they're going to be doing. And I think you're gonna write, there's something about memoir for me, with you about, oh, I've
9 (1h 4m 31s):
Started.
1 (1h 4m 32s):
Okay, well, you need to finish. I think that's the key. You may be someone who teaches other people how to either write a memoir or collect family history, oral storytelling, something about the past, and also the commitment to tradition. There's something there. And I bet you're going to be a writer. I have this feeling. There's some,
9 (1h 4m 60s):
That was my original goal when I was a kid. A little kid. Yeah.
1 (1h 5m 4s):
And did you get talked out of it?
9 (1h 5m 7s):
No. Oh, no. I never got talked out of what I wanted to do. It was just getting talked out of leaving the house.
1 (1h 5m 13s):
That's getting talked out of so many things, but something that you
2 (1h 5m 17s):
Definitely don't need to leave the house for
9 (1h 5m 19s):
Writing. I, I did win a, an essay award in high school and, and it was actually, it was a story I wrote about my grandfather, the, the painter, and, you know, it's hard. I feel like, I feel like I'm waiting for the kids to get old enough where I can find regular pockets of time for myself, where I could actually sit down and finish a thought and not be in the grocery store
2 (1h 5m 53s):
Girl.
2 (1h 6m 36s):
I finally learned that that's part of the process, that it's all part of the process. Actually, you're writing when you're walking around the grocery store too. And you're writing when you're having your shower thoughts, you're always actually writing. The hard part is finding the moment to put everything that's in here down and have an uninterrupted chunk of time to do that. And the other thing that's hard to do, I mean, I can really relate to a lot of what you're saying. The other thing that's hard to do in my family is to convince people in my family that it's still work. Even though I'm not getting paid for it right now.
9 (1h 7m 14s):
Oh, yes.
2 (1h 7m 16s):
Right. It's like, well, yeah, because if I, if I got a salary for what I did for you, people I'd be the top earner here because everything in state, I am stage managing the fuck out.
9 (1h 7m 31s):
You don't have a choice.
2 (1h 7m 32s):
Yeah, exactly.
1 (1h 7m 33s):
Okay. So here's my question. If we sat down with you in a year and we sit down on your, and we say, and we Jean, and I say, so what's happening? What would you love to be happening a year from now today?
9 (1h 7m 51s):
Oh, well, I would really love to be in school. I would really love to be in school.
2 (1h 8m 1s):
Well, you seem like a person who likes people to keep you accountable. So I'm happy to do that. What's going on. Come back on the show and tell us what you've been up
9 (1h 8m 11s):
To today. I'll take the challenge.
4 (1h 8m 21s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production den, Bosworth Ramirez, and Gina plea chief, or the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: Final Draft is conspiring against us, Beastie Boys' Adam Horowitz, Doris the dog loves the vet, Jim Croce, The Cure.
Let Me Run This By You: storytelling, Risk Podcast, The Moth
Interview: We talk to the creator and producer of You're Being Ridiculous, Jeremy Owens, about offending people, porn, Samantha Irby, Roosevelt University, University of Arkansas, The URTAs, King Lear, Greg Vinkler, Barbara Gaines, Plautus' The Rope, P.F. Changs, Kyogen, Threepenny Opera, Steppenwolf, Brene Brown, Marianne Williamson.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
3 (15s):
At 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (34s):
Yeah.
1 (35s):
It was one of these things where it's like, final draft will not let you restart your computer. I'm like, fuck you. Final draft. What did you ever do for me? Final draft writer, duet. They're all, they're all plotting against me,
2 (47s):
But what is, what is, what does final draft have to do with your camera working on this?
1 (53s):
So in order to, to be okay, the bottom line is I need a new computer. Okay. Let's start there second. Okay. That's the first level of problems. It's like the deepest level. And then we, if we go up a little bit into the level of problems, it is that final draft that I might camera in order to use my camera. Sometimes I have to restart my computer because it's so old. Right. So I need to restart,
2 (1m 19s):
You know, I want to do any one thing in the morning I got, are really rev my engine.
1 (1m 26s):
So like, I'm like, okay, well, in order to restart the computer, it's like not letting me restart it because final draft is this because probably final draft is so advanced and my computer is so Jack.
2 (1m 39s):
Totally. And that's how they get you mad. I feel like they all conspired to be like, okay, well let's make it. So this will work on this version. So then,
1 (1m 49s):
So anyway, I see you, you look great. I look like shit. So it's probably better my camera's up.
2 (1m 57s):
So a couple of things I keep forgetting to ask you on here, about how, how did it come to be that you were chatting in the parking lot with Adam Horowitz about your dogs, Volvo.
1 (2m 12s):
We never talked about that.
2 (2m 14s):
We did not.
1 (2m 15s):
Okay. So I rule up, so my dog, Doris, who everyone knows that listens to the podcast and by everyone, I mean, whoever listens to the podcast, you know what I mean? So hopefully it's growing and growing, listen and rate the podcast. Anyway, the point is I roll up to the vet, which I do oh about every other week, because my dog is a very high maintenance. And so she's just so she of course had an ear infection. Cause she has these huge ears that collect all this bacteria. So I roll up and there's an eye and because it's COVID and everything, you have to park outside and wait, but because it's LA all the windows are down and everyone's car and there's this dude sitting in his Kia has electric Kia.
1 (2m 59s):
Well,
2 (2m 59s):
My key.
1 (3m 0s):
Yeah, I know. I know. I did not recognize this human being. He looked like my husband, like fifties gray, maybe had glasses on.
2 (3m 13s):
Why would you like all our knowledge of them is when they were so, so young. Right,
1 (3m 18s):
Right. So young. And I like didn't, you know, keep up with the beast. So it was like, I had other things to do, you know? So I was doing other things. So I'm, I'm like trying to corral Doris out of the car. She's crazy. She's trying to get out. She loves the vet. The backdrop is my dog
2 (3m 35s):
Loves the,
1 (3m 36s):
Oh my God. She races towards the vet with a fury that is unmatched, loves it. I
2 (3m 43s):
Never once heard of this in my entire life. So
1 (3m 45s):
She's really, really excited about the bet. So she's an extra crazy. And I get her out of the carrier to let her sniff around in the parking lot. And I see this gentleman who is the interesting thing about him is that his leg is out the window. Like he's like resting his leg. And I'm like, well, that's kind of weird for like an older dude, but whatever, it's, it's LA like, you know
2 (4m 8s):
That sound's going to say, I imagine that kind of thing happens in LA.
1 (4m 11s):
Yeah. And plus he's probably weighed been waiting and waiting for his dog forever. And so, cause you, you have to wait out there, like they don't want you to leave in case they need you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, fine. So I, and I say, and he says, oh, a cute dog. And I'm like, oh, she's a pain in the ass. And then he's like, what's her name? And I'm like, oh, her name is Doris. And he's like, oh, that was my mom's name. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then we talked about the origin of Doris, cause it's from a Jim Croce song. And Jim Croce is someone, my husband adores the singer. The folks there yeah. Died when he was 29. Looked like he was about 60. When he died.
2 (4m 47s):
He was 29.
1 (4m 49s):
Yes. You know, he looks like David Abbott, Holly, if you ever look at me
2 (4m 56s):
Like a hole, I see it.
1 (4m 59s):
But just bringing it back to the old theater school. So, so yeah. And so he's like, we talked about Jim Croce and he's like, Jim Croce is the first person I remember dying. I had that album. And I said, yeah. And he said, that's in a Jim Croce song. And I said, yes, Leroy brown, Friday about a week ago, Leroy shooting dice. And at the end of the bar sat a girl named Doris and who that girl looked nice. And that's why we named Doris Doris. He was like, I don't remember Doris being in that song. So we get into that. Right. Okay. And then he's like, I'm like, oh, is your dog okay? And he's like, well, she, she, she got a cut on her neck and I'm like, oh shit. And I'm like, is that
2 (5m 38s):
A knife fight in a bar?
1 (5m 39s):
I was like, how did that happen? And he goes, I don't know. But like, you know, since I'm not a doctor, I figured I'd take, bring her to the vet. I'm like good plan, my friend, good plan. So he's like, I'm waiting for him and waiting for her. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then he said, what's wrong with your dog? And I said, oh my God, what? Isn't wrong with my dog? And I said, my dog has a dermatitis of the vulva and an ear infection. And he's like, wait, what? And I'm like, yes, she just she's out. She's got a lot of allergies because she's a friend. She and I did this to myself by getting a friendship. But like, yeah, she's got, and he said that his dog was really licking her butthole and he had dermatitis of the bottle. And I was like, it's the same I heard of my friend, Morgan has a Frenchie who has dermatitis of the butthole because all Frenchie owners talk about these things.
1 (6m 26s):
And he's like, oh, well, my dog has dermatitis of the bottle. I'm like, well, mine's got dermatitis of the Volvo. They both have, they both have like private parts itching. Right. And so then we started talking and we talked about a lot of things. Cause you have to wait forever. And then right. And so we talk and talk and talk and no clue who this person is. And he's like,
2 (6m 47s):
Did you say cut? There's something about that voice?
1 (6m 52s):
No.
2 (6m 52s):
No. Okay.
1 (6m 54s):
'cause he was kinda mumbly and also just looked so natural.
2 (6m 60s):
Aiming, sabotage.
1 (7m 1s):
No, not screaming and also not jumping around with his other two cohort. And then I just, I felt like, anyway, it just didn't cross my mind. And his shoelaces were untied. I don't know. It was like a real casual situation.
2 (7m 15s):
Yeah. Honestly, I would never assume somebody in a key is famous. That's my snobbery, but I wouldn't.
1 (7m 21s):
Yeah. I mean, I, it was a very, very, very nice camp, but it still, it was a key I said to you like, oh, that was her talking about cars. I mean, we talked about kids, cars, Manhattan. Then he said, I'm from it. I said, oh, I'm from Chicago. And he said, I'm from Manhattan. And I said, oh, I said, oh my God. I launched into this thing about how I could never live in New York because I was like to own like the most unhip like fat and ugly human and like, not in a bad way, but just like, kind of like I'm. So I just feel like, I didn't know what the fuck was going on ever in New York. Like, I didn't know which way to go, who to talk to, where to turn I was lost. And he's like, yeah. Do you know what I like about LA is like, nothing ever happens here.
1 (8m 2s):
That's not
2 (8m 2s):
True.
1 (8m 3s):
No. But I was like, what do you mean? He's like, I need to just like New York, like you have like a million things are always happening at any given time. Right?
2 (8m 11s):
Sure. It's a lot too. Like you have to do a lot of processing living in New York, you're taking your, you know, you're just taking in so much information
1 (8m 19s):
And that does not happen in LA and LA you're like sometimes starved for like,
2 (8m 25s):
Right.
1 (8m 26s):
But we talked about that. And then, and then by like end of conversation almost. I was like, oh, I'm Jen. I'm so sorry. And he was like, oh, I'm Adam. And I was like, okay, still, no, I had no
2 (8m 40s):
Adam common name,
1 (8m 41s):
Common name, whatever. And mom named Doris, whatever. Like, okay. And then we started talking, he said, his wife, what did he say? Oh, he bought a house in south custody. Anyway, all this stuff. He has a kid. And at the end I say, he was talking about what we, what we do. And I'm like, oh, I'm a, I'm a writer. And I'm like trying to write TV, but I also consult, I just started this business, but I wasn't, you know, I was a therapist and for felons and like, and then he got really into that. And then I said, oh, what are you doing? And he's like, oh, I was, I think he said I was in the I'm in the music business. I said, oh, that's cool. I thought he was like a producer, like maybe a classical composer or something. I don't know. That's where my mind went. And I'm like, oh, like, what do you do?
1 (9m 22s):
And then he said, I was in and I said, oh, what kind of music? He's like, I was in a rap trio. And I was like, wait a minute, a rap tree endorsed by this. By this time it was like, biting me. You know, it's like a whole, I'm like, oh, a rap trio. And I couldn't the only rap trio I could think of was run DMC. And I'm like, oh, he's not in that. You know, he's a white dude. There's no way. And I'm like, oh crap trio. And I was like, house of pain, Cypress hill. Like I couldn't get it together. And then I was like, and then it dawned on me. And I said, oh, and he said something, like I said, I don't remember how it came up. And he's like, oh, I'm Adam Horwitz. And I was like, oh, I was like, of course.
1 (10m 2s):
I said, oh my God. And then I didn't know what to say. So I just said, cause he just moved. He actually, he moved to south Pasadena, wait before I moved to Pasadena. But I said welcome to Pasadena.
2 (10m 16s):
Right. Because the minute, you know, it's a celebrity. It's like, it changes the ions. Wait. Yes.
1 (10m 21s):
Thank you. You welcome to you too.
2 (10m 24s):
So what I think is so interesting and must be so well, I don't know. I don't know if it's annoying or whatever it is, celebrities. You, they must have to always be in a process of deciding with when they're interacting with people, they don't know what are we going to do with this fact, like, do you know who I am? Do you not know who I am? If you know who I am, just, what does that mean? Is that why you're talking to me? And then, but he opened one of the first things you said that he said was that his mom's name was, I mean, I guess that's not unusual, but I was thinking to myself when you said that I was thinking, oh, was he hoping That would confirm not that his dad is famous.
2 (11m 10s):
His dad is
1 (11m 10s):
Trail horo. Israel.
2 (11m 12s):
Yeah. He's a kind of a terrible guy though.
1 (11m 16s):
I heard is there. I think they're both dead. I mean, from what I got, I don't know. I know he has a sister. I don't know. But like he seemed like the kind, yes, you're right. Like it must be so weird. And also I literally was so into my own world. It's like, so Los Angeles, like I, when I found out that he was, I was super excited because I wanted to say, oh, I saw you at the Metro in Chicago and stuff like that. But then I was like, oh, I can't. And so I got excited, but I also, it was literally like talking to your husband or my husband in that they're old people. Like I wanted to be more excited about the, the youthful version.
2 (11m 56s):
Right? You want it to be 19 year old, you eating Israel, horrible
1 (12m 2s):
Adam Harz and being like, let's go on a date or something. But that is not what I, that was not my inclination this time. And also his he's married to this amazing punk hero, Kathleen Hanna from bikini kill who I adore. And I know that, but I didn't bring that up either. But anyway, the point is we exchanged information because we were like, let's walk our dogs. His dog is Terry. It really hairy dog, little girl, dog named Terry. And I said, well, what kind of dog is Terry? And he goes, I don't know, very hairy. And I was like, okay, well, okay. So we may go on a dog-walking adventure. I have no idea, but lovely human, but just like soup. We are super middle age.
1 (12m 43s):
This is what the moral of this thing was actually not the celebrity. Part of it was the, what hit me the most Gina was the middle age in this of it all. So the other thing is like, nobody gives a shit now about the things that we give a shit about. So the BC boys, I was talking to my niece, she didn't know who that was. And so I was like, oh right. Meaning I still care who they are, but
2 (13m 16s):
Right. Yeah.
1 (13m 17s):
Time moves on timeframe.
2 (13m 20s):
Yeah. Periodically we have kids periodically, they'll come up to you and they'll be like, have you ever heard of this bay? Or like, my son was listening to something and I'm like, and I go, he goes, oh, I've got to play this song for you. It's this band. This is like obscure band or something like that. It was the cure. I go, are you kidding me, dude? I put white face makeup on and wore black and tried to hang my two years in junior high. I knew the cure is okay. So that was one thing. And the other thing was last time.
1 (13m 52s):
It super nice though. I got to say, if anybody cares, he was not a Dick head.
2 (13m 56s):
I care. Yeah. That's nice. I'm happy to hear that. But just one last thing about that whole, like being a celebrity, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, because on the one hand you, you could have somebody say, oh, it's like pretentious to not say who you are. And on the other hand, people would say, you know, you can't win. You can't, you
1 (14m 14s):
Can't win. That is the bottom line. Yeah. Yeah.
2 (14m 17s):
So the other thing was last time we talked, you said, oh, I want to save it for the podcast, but about showcase. So you were talking about getting your kids ready for showcase.
1 (14m 28s):
Okay. So here's the deal with that. So I, because of this podcast, I'm like, okay, is there a way to make a showcase? Not the shit show that I feel it was now, there may not be, it might be inherent in the thing. Okay. But so I'm teaching fourth year. I like, basically don't even, I don't know what I'm teaching at this point, but not even teaching anymore. I'm done. And my, my, my, my co-teacher took over, but I started noticing as I always do that, that, that the students are like, you know, crazy nervous about the showcase and also crazy nervous about agents and managers and all the things.
1 (15m 9s):
Now, there is no showcase in LA. There was only a quote meet and greet. There is no showcase in New York. There was only quote, a meet and greet. Look, it gets weirder in Chicago. There was a live showcase and a meet and greet. Now, I don't know what went down, but the bottom line is the ball has been dropped so many times about this showcase and about graduation and about launching that at this point, the ball is just dead in a heap deflated. Okay. So I said, okay, well, what can I do to make this fucking situation better? Because I know what it's like to be there and be like, oh my God, I'm falling behind. What if so then I'm like, okay, everybody, here's what we're going to do.
1 (15m 52s):
I am going to email everyone I know in LA and everywhere and say, come to this showcase and watch your digital link. They have a virtual showcase. But the problem with that is nobody. If nobody gets sees it, it doesn't matter. And so it was made in a form beans where it looked like spam. So it went to everybody's spam. So no casting directors and no agents got the fucking link. And I realized that because I told a student of mine, I said, listen, you want to be repped by this one agency, let's create a letter to them. Let's pitch them. And so then I get a call from the agent saying, we loved this letter.
1 (16m 33s):
Also, thank you for including, we didn't think there was a showcase.
4 (16m 37s):
Oh my gosh.
1 (16m 39s):
And I said, what's,
2 (16m 41s):
This has to do with just the fact that like, there's been all this administrative,
1 (16m 45s):
I think it's, COVID meets the problem with conservatories, which is that they do not think that launching their students is an important part part of their job. Right? Right. So it falls to nobody. And so the person in charge bless her heart is one marketing person that knows nothing. I don't believe about acting or the entertainment industry at all. There is no Jane alderman. There, there is no, at least. So I stepped in to be like the proxy, Jane alderman with another adjunct. And we were like, okay, well, how do we do this? So I am happy to say that after literally making maybe 43 phone calls, everyone has the link.
1 (17m 26s):
People are coming to the showcases. Now my thing is to do the meet and greet in LA to try to get people there because these, these kiddos are coming to LA, there is no showcase. I'm like, well, we, what are we doing? Like we have to have something like, so, and I also just, you know, and I know these kids, like these are my students. So like, I want to meet them. And then, so now I'm getting everyone I know to come to the meet, greet in the business and
2 (17m 51s):
The money thing. Like, they're like, oh, well we have, we can do it online. And so we don't have to pay for, to rent the space for,
1 (17m 59s):
So they wouldn't even tell me, they wouldn't even tell me. They didn't even want to give me the invite to the LA thing. I had to like fight to get the, I don't understand what is going on. But I was like, listen, all right,
2 (18m 11s):
DePaul, I'm going to tell you something right now in DePaul. You want to be well-regarded you want to be number one. You want to always talk about your, your alum or even not your alum. People who, who went and got kicked out about their great successes. And you don't, but you don't want to do anything to get there. And that is not how it works, how it works is you put a lot of energy and I'm not saying at the expense of teachers or whatever, but you put a lot of energy and effort into not just hyping your students, but hyping your school.
2 (18m 51s):
Like it should be that your school is saying, have we got a crew for you? Yeah.
1 (18m 56s):
And which is what I then stepped in and had to do and be like, these kids are dope. Come see this, look at this link and then come to the thing. And so all the casting and agents in Chicago are now coming. Thank God, because guess who, there was one person RSVP
2 (19m 14s):
Girl, and you need a bonus
1 (19m 16s):
Stroke. Here's what we're doing. So then I said, okay, because I'm always thinking, I'm like, okay, well, here's what I'm doing. I'm developing a launching curriculum, which I think I told you about, like, I'm developing a day, one BFA for day one of the fourth year. Here's what we're going to do to launch you. And it's not just about the showcase. It's about mentorship. It's about how can we hook you up with somebody that's in what you want to do? How can we do that? And I'm going to pitch it. I'm going to say, here you pay me $120,000. And I will sell you this program and, and hook you up with teachers and people. I know that can step in and do this with me. Like you like people in the business, like people who are on different coasts, like duh, and then we will.
1 (19m 58s):
So, and if you don't want to buy it, DePaul theater school, we're selling it to Northwestern or NYU or any anyone.
2 (20m 4s):
Well, I was going to ask, do you know, if other conservatories are doing showcases and doing,
1 (20m 9s):
And they are, and they are doing it and they are, they are doing it. I, from what I can see, Gina, they're doing it better. I don't know if it's, you know, how good it is. But I do know that like other showcases released their digital showcase because of the pandemic on actors, accessing and town and casting networks, which DePaul did not do. Oh
2 (20m 30s):
My God.
1 (20m 32s):
So here's, so that is not okay with me because I went there and I, I do care about it because of this podcast. I also know that these kids having watched them at, you know, 21 year olds, 22 year olds, max, they're busting their ass, just like you. And I we're busting our ass. Like, look, they're busting their ass more than we were, but you and I busted her ass too. And I feel like we didn't get what we needed from the launch process. And what, what will happen is no one will people and people stopped going to theater school. Is that what you want? Or do you want to upgrade like level?
1 (21m 13s):
Let me run this by. There's a lot of people I hate.
2 (21m 24s):
Exactly, exactly. Okay. So the thing I wanted to run by you is about storytelling. I signed up for this workshop in my town. We have a little community theater and they sometimes have little workshops and I did improv there one time. And actually by the way, doing improv there, I I'm, I still am terrified of it. And I still don't feel like I'm I do well, but add it. But I reduced my fear somewhat by just aging within, and then we had a performance and my whole family came and yeah, it was, yeah.
1 (22m 3s):
Why don't we talk about what
2 (22m 5s):
She like two years ago or three years ago, actually. Yeah. Three or maybe even four years ago now. But anyway, on Sunday I went to, they ha they had a workshop led by a storyteller from the moth and she taught us, you know, how to, so there was only five of us there. One person, only one person absolutely knew when he came in. Exactly what story he wanted to tell. The rest of us were like, I have certain things that are coming to mind. Of course my thing. And I said, I was, I just owned it from the beginning was I've written essays. And I've, you know, written a lot about my life.
2 (22m 46s):
And yet I somehow feel like I don't have a story to tell. And she said, that's so common. She was telling this great story about somebody. Cause she does corporate stuff too. She was telling the story about somebody in a workshop, in a corporate workshop who just kept saying, I just, I don't have a story. I don't have a story. The day goes on. And he goes, well, I might have something, my family and I fled Vietnam right before this. And she goes, yeah, that's a story. That's a, that's a story you could tell. Anyway, point being, we're putting these stories together and we're going to perform them on Friday.
2 (23m 34s):
And the I'll say there is something about the process of working on it. That has been, it's not exactly healing, cause this is not a, for me at all. It's something I'm telling a story about when I lived in that apartment on Lil and Libby got me this job at the bakery and while we were, and she was very assiduous about being to work on time. And
1 (24m 9s):
I remember the, was it the red hen? Oh, we shouldn't say it out loud.
2 (24m 12s):
I actually, I really don't remember the name. I think it might have been called great Plains. I don't know. Okay. I don't think it's there anymore. And one of the things that was our task was to deal with the mice that inevitably came into the, in the flour sacks and stuff like that in the back. And, but I never she'd said to me, we have to deal with the mice, but I somehow, I hadn't really, really thought that through. And the way we were meant to deal with the mice was hit them over the head with a shovel.
1 (24m 47s):
Oh. So, so murder of the mice
2 (24m 50s):
Were into the mice. And so my story is about watching this five foot tall, gorgeous little, just, I mean, she looks like a bird, this girl, woman now, but she was a girl. Then I'm just swinging the shovel over her head and bringing it down. And then just very like with, with zero expression, taking paper towels and picking it up and throw it in the trash, washing her hands and making it back to the register in time for the next customer who came in. And my point of it, of the story is that's. That was one of my most important lessons about the difference between being poor and being broke because I was broke, you know, and always looking for jobs and always working through school.
2 (25m 35s):
But if it came to smashing a mouse over the head with a shovel, I'm just going to quit that job and go find another job, selling clothes at express. But Libby did not have such luxuries. She had to take the jobs that she could get. And she had to guard them with her life because as even, even with the amount of time she worked, there was a period of time where she would tell me, like, I'm going to bed hungry a lot of nights. And I couldn't help her, you know, because I was broke. I just, I didn't have we bought ramen. I mean, we right. Like six days a week.
2 (26m 16s):
And so it's about that. And so there's something about, but, but the fact that it's about this epoch in my life yeah. Which I haven't really written that much about, I've written about my childhood and I've written about things that are more contemporary, but you have a lot of experience with storytelling. And I'm curious to know what role that has played in sort of, you know, for one thing, the ability to string together, kind of the, of your life into a cohesive narrative. If, if
1 (26m 47s):
That's
2 (26m 47s):
Something that has been helpful or if maybe you have healed in some way, maybe from your one person show,
1 (26m 53s):
I am Gina. What comes to mind? Like what first came to mind when you were talking about your experience with this storytelling thing? Is it, what, what is the coolest thing to me about storytelling? Like this live lit as we like to call it in Chicago, just because I, storytelling people think it's like, we started calling it live live because people thought it was like, you know, Renaissance fair storytelling. Right. We had like a cheese ball, it's it doesn't matter. It's storytelling. So storytelling, bridges the gap for me. And maybe you have acting and writing. So it is both performance and writing, which I think is brilliant. I think acting is for the birds.
1 (27m 35s):
Like I just do. I think acting is really hard. I'm not very good at it. Not because I'm not a good person, but that's what I'm saying. I'm not very good at it because I don't like it as much as I like telling a story. That's my story. That also has a performance aspect to it. And it heals the acting thing for me. So you are acting, you are acting, you're not like you in your kitchen, just like when we do a podcast where there's a part of us, that's acting, it's not, you know, it just is what it is. So I think that that is extremely healing. And what, I wonder if it's extremely healing for you, because I feel like in terms of the acting thing, I know that post-graduation from an acting conservatory, you talk about just completely shutting down, completely not shutting down to the acting part of yourself.
1 (28m 25s):
And I think like through your son and then through this podcast and through writing television and now through storytelling and like your dip into improv, you're, you're healing, the actor part of yourself.
2 (28m 37s):
That's right. That's right. It
1 (28m 38s):
Wouldn't surprise me. If you went on to do acting like started acting in plays and stuff. Again,
2 (28m 44s):
I'm not going to lie. I'm really thinking about it at this point in time. I still feel like it's a bridge too far, just because I have nobody to spell me at home. You know, I can't ask my husband to leave his job so I can go to a play. But at some point, I mean, you know, they're not going to be this age forever. At some point I will be able to do that. And I do have designs on doing that actually.
1 (29m 8s):
Yeah. And I think, and I think you, I think this storytelling is brilliant because I think the cool thing about storytelling, as well as like you could go to New York city and do them off one night. It's not a, it's not a commitment like the play. In fact, you could do the risk thing that I did in New York. Like the rest of the podcast is live performances in New York. So all this to say that I think storytelling is a fantastic way to heal the part of ourselves that wants to be a performer, but definitely doesn't want, is not ready to take all the trappings and bullshit. That is a professional acting career, which is garbage. Like I got to say, like I just tell my students is to like the part of the business, which is why this is so fraught because it's garbage.
1 (29m 55s):
That's why you don't like it. But that doesn't mean it's not worth it to you. If you can find a way to make it worth it to you, the competition, the rejection, the then go for it. But what if that is bothersome? And like, you don't want to deal, like what about live lit? Like what about improv? What if there's so many other things? And so like, wouldn't it have been awesome. Gina. If someone had come to us fourth year and been like, Hey, you know what, maybe you get really nervous and that panic attacks when you have to audition. But what about like writing this thing and telling your story on, you know, on a stage somewhere where you get to hold the piece of paper
2 (30m 34s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Jeremy Owen. Jeremy is a storyteller and the creator of a storytelling show called George being ridiculous, which is premiering ask Stephanie, I think tomorrow or the next day, check it out. Please enjoy our conversation with Jeremy Owens. Wow. Congratulations. Jeremy Owens. You survive theater school. I want to hear this fabulous story. I missed the beat.
1 (31m 11s):
Yeah. So Gina, miss the beginning. So I was just basically saying that everyone's rusty and it's really good. We're talking about this because also Gina's performing storytelling this weekend and we were just talking about rusty. It was, everyone was after two years of not doing live lit stuff. And then Jeremy tells me that he did a show and of course we can, you don't have to use names and all that, but like did a show and it went south and by south, he's going to tell us what that means. It really went south. So
7 (31m 41s):
It really, when up it's like so complicated. Okay. So I was doing a fundraiser first off. I was like, I there's no way, like, who wants to watch me talk on zoom? Like we're doing that all the time. Like who even cares? How can this benefit anyone? But it's a fundraiser. My sister-in-law asked me amazing. I love it. Amen. Let's go. Let's do it. So we're doing it. And I, okay. I was not as cautious. And as careful as I should have been the show, I mean, you done the show, you did a show. I don't know if I can talk about your story, but you like got your tooth knocked out. That's
1 (32m 22s):
Oh, I believe me. I did. I gave a blow job and my back lower fell out. Yeah.
7 (32m 28s):
That's a story
2 (32m 28s):
Story. I
7 (32m 31s):
Share that story, but That's good. That's the, but that's like kind of the fuel it's like, you don't know what's going to happen. Some things are like, you know, super lovey Dubby. Sometimes somebody tells a story about a blow job and their tooth gets knocked out. It's like not a big deal. Like this is the world we live in. But I mean, if you're doing a corporate fundraiser for someone and I just, Alex, if you're listening, I love you. I just was not clued in. And that's my fault. That's not her fault. It's my fault. I accept responsibility for all those things. This is my disclaimer for my, for my sister-in-law. I accept all the responsibility for that. I just should have been more cautious.
7 (33m 11s):
Right. So if you're up for doing show or tea, fall out from low jobs, it's not that maybe not the best for like a board. Like those are the stories that people,
1 (33m 20s):
I
7 (33m 20s):
Didn't know
1 (33m 21s):
It is. If I'm on the fucking board, I'd probably not get,
7 (33m 24s):
I know, same for me. I mean, we went to theater school and I've decided like, as that has passed me by that we're not the same as like Bob down the street who is like wildly offended by anything, you know, sexual or
1 (33m 42s):
Anything
2 (33m 42s):
You ever get used to that, by the way, I, I I'm always like, oh really? We have to do this thing where I have to pretend like I'm talking to my grandma. Like you're a full grown adult standing in front of me. What's that?
1 (33m 53s):
What's your story about, please tell me something amazing. Gross, please.
7 (33m 56s):
I didn't even get to my story. That's the thing. Okay. So It wasn't even me. I wish it were me. It was like six or seven people. And I think we got like three or four in. And so as they're happening, I'm like, oh wow. That person said, fuck, oh no, this person's talking about porn. Oh, wow. Like things that like, just don't register for me. Right. Because I guess theater school. It's like, none of that registers for me. I'm not offended by anything other than like racist, white assholes.
7 (34m 38s):
Anything else? It doesn't register me. I don't. I know. I just don't care. I'm not bothered. So
2 (34m 45s):
Charity though. I mean,
1 (34m 47s):
It was like, there was it like the nuns of like a sister.
7 (34m 50s):
Oh, I don't want to say there. I don't want to say their name. I'll tell you
1 (34m 54s):
What Sater
7 (34m 56s):
Well, they're like
1 (34m 58s):
Healthcare, charity. He doesn't want
7 (35m 1s):
1 (35m 12s):
Me. So what happened? It just went blank.
7 (35m 15s):
Like we're just plopping along and I'm like so excited. Cause it's like July 20, 20. I have only been like talking to my dog and my husband. Right. So this is happening and I'm listening to stories. I'm having a great time. This is like amazing loving life porn who cares, you know, whatever. And then all of a sudden it stops working. Like I don't see anything. And I'm like, oh my God, this is my brother-in-law. I was like running the tech. I'm like, oh no,
1 (35m 44s):
He thought it was a tech thing. Of course.
7 (35m 46s):
I was like, well, this happened to me. I was taking this class online this weekend and the internet I had and I was like, oh shit. Like in the middle of class, I'm like, great. So now they think I'm an asshole. I just left class early. So I'm just like, this is dead. Right. Then they come, my sister-in-law calls me and tells me what's happening. And they're all furious. And they just, instead of like a conversation or something, or like this is coming or we're so disappointed, it was just like, this is over now. Like just totally dead. The bad part about that is that none of us knew. And there was no communication with me. Other if it hadn't been my sister-in-law, I don't know if I would, I would still be here on my computer.
7 (36m 31s):
Probably.
1 (36m 32s):
That's hilarious right there. Like, are you there yet?
7 (36m 36s):
Hello? Hi. Hi. They just didn't communicate at
1 (36m 40s):
All.
2 (36m 43s):
We're like, really? I'm getting irritated about this. Listen to the story is like, I don't know any of the players, but I feel like, I feel like we're the people we're pretending people are pretending that they don't watch porn or that they don't swear or, you know, like, why do I have to do this? Pretending I just love unless there was children in the audience and maybe there were,
7 (37m 4s):
I don't think so. Like, you know, it's like, I had like friends who
1 (37m 8s):
I curated it. Where you did you
7 (37m 10s):
Find, I mean, it's all, basically this entire thing is my fault. But like
1 (37m 15s):
You, you found everybody.
7 (37m 17s):
I found everybody, I got everybody. This was like a great in my mind was this is like a greatest hits. This is like, awesome.
1 (37m 24s):
It's the one time I'm so grateful. I was not asked to do anything. Like
7 (37m 29s):
It was just so weird. And there's like, I don't know it. Yeah, it was. But again,
1 (37m 37s):
I do the story for the ages. I love it. All of a sudden, it just goes blank.
7 (37m 41s):
I'm in the home. This is a story I'm going to, I just went blank. I didn't know what to do. Everything was gone. Just talking about those things. It doesn't, I don't find that if, when I say porn, I'm not like, this is the butthole. Like it wasn't like, you know what?
2 (37m 59s):
I
7 (37m 59s):
Watched porn. Right. That's not offensive to me.
1 (38m 5s):
I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Yeah. Like Gina was saying like we're okay. So that went south. Like if did you feel I'm really concerned? Like, cause I would have probably had to check in somewhere because I would have been like, I curated this motherfucker and now I caused this whole fucking
7 (38m 23s):
I'm still like T like we have a show coming up in like a week at Steppenwolf. And I had one of the storytellers from that show sent me a is doing the show at Steppenwolf. And I like had a moment because his story is like, because of that. And because I'm like wildly triggered, I was like, Hey, maybe you could do this story about tennis or whatever. And he's like, do you need a PG story? Like what's going on? And then I was like, and then I re-read a story. And I was like, I do not his stories about sex.
7 (39m 5s):
I do not find this offensive. This is okay. I'm
2 (39m 24s):
And see what happens to me though. When I hear w whenever my antenna go up, whenever I hear like, oh, that's offensive to me. That just automatically means you're doing behavior that you feel really ashamed of. And so you want to shame me instead of just own the truth of whatever it is you're doing. This is exactly what happens on the Handmaid's tale. You know, it's all about the Bible, but then they're just like holding people down and raping them. So I just think it's a little bit of a soft sign for you've got trouble. If adults are saying that referencing the fact that there is porn is
7 (39m 58s):
Troublesome. Yeah.
1 (40m 2s):
Oh my God. I can just, okay. I would have been so traumatized. So I hear you. And I also think that, like, it's interesting, I've had a similar thing where like, on this podcast, I've mentioned my husband's job. I have mentioned. And so Gina and I always talk about, well, we will not always, but we've had to talk about this of like, what is the, and it's like a bigger thing in our society right. In the world. Like, where do I draw the line of like, can I stand behind this? I guess that's what it is. It's like, can I stand? If I'm called to the carpet, whoever God, the board, whoever, and say, stand behind this show. These words can.
1 (40m 43s):
And that's when, if I can stand behind it and I am willing to answer for it. And I'm like, I'm all in. If I feel like I'm wishy washy, then I feel like it's going to go south. And then I it's weird. It's a weird thing. It's like when to cut, when to not cut, now, you didn't have the ability I'm fucking lives to do
7 (41m 6s):
That. What
1 (41m 7s):
Happens in live television, right? When someone who goes bonkers or has a stroke, God forbid, or it's like, you don't know what to do. So live is a different thing. Like it's different with a podcast. We can cut. We can, but like a live show, whether zoom or on stage, there is this moment. So when I did my solo show, Samantha Irby, Sam Irby opened for me. Right. Ramus. Now wasn't famous then. But it was always a Reverend and a bad-ass right. But data story at my show and my uncle were there about SAC,
7 (41m 38s):
Right.
1 (41m 38s):
Eight leakage and fluids. And I was like, oh. And then I thought, oh, I wanted to run on stage and be like, ah, this is too much. But then I thought you invited this person. This is their jam. This
7 (41m 54s):
We love. Right.
1 (41m 58s):
What, what, okay, sit, sit, and just deal with it. And if my uncle and my uncle was really offended and like, fuck that. Okay. So, but it's hard to do. I was squirming. So you must've been squirming when you, when your, when your person called you and was like, cause you, you found these people. But I think sometimes we squirm, right? Sometimes we squirm,
7 (42m 21s):
Oh my God, I was dying. Cause it's like, I don't, I don't want to disappoint any of, either of you, this computer, this desk. And I just want to make everyone so happy all the time. And I don't want anyone upset with me or like, I don't want to cause any problems, nothing. I want you all happy.
1 (42m 42s):
And sometimes despite our best people, pleasing efforts, like shit goes south. Like that is the story of shit going south. Despite Being a good person, having gone to college, go to it, shit still goes south. So
7 (42m 55s):
I vote like
1 (42m 58s):
You're very active, like socially.
2 (43m 2s):
So let's, let's talk about you and your experiences. Did you go to DePaul?
7 (43m 7s):
I wish I had gone to DePaul, but I, from listening to this podcast, I get that. I don't know. I went to Roosevelt university for grad school.
2 (43m 17s):
Cool. Tell us everything. Tell us, like, when you decided you wanted to be an actor and when you decided you wanted to go to theater school, tell us everything.
7 (43m 25s):
Well, for me, I grew up in Arkansas. So I went to the university of Arkansas and I started out as like a journalism and a political science major. But then they, the department, the journalism department had us take a speech class. Like how does speak in theater class, you know, to get rid of your accent basically. Cause we're all Arkansans. We sound like, you know, we're in God, but the wind or whatever. So we took this class and I had growing up and like my small town, I always loved theater. I'd done community theater and the whole thing. So when I took that class and like, everyone in there is like, you know, so alive and so like interesting and like, like real, I was like, well, this is going to be a problem.
7 (44m 17s):
So then I, like, I signed up for, you know, the second semester of the class. And then I was like, oh, I'm gonna audition for these one acts. And then so slowly I just migrated into the theater department and completely dropped journalism, political science, all of it. And disappointed my parents ruined their lives, you know, the whole thing. So I didn't really understand, like by the, by the end of my time in undergrad, I was like, I don't really, it's like, you're young. It's like, I don't understand grad school. I don't know. But that seems to be thing that I, there was a grad program that had just started there, like, like near the end of my time there.
7 (44m 59s):
And I was like, I guess that's what I'm supposed to do. And so everyone told me to go to Chicago. I hadn't ever been to Chicago. I knew nothing about it. Never even visited, but I was like, okay. They're like funny people should go to Chicago. And I'm like, oh, I'm funny. So I guess that's where I'll go.
1 (45m 15s):
You are funny. So it's good. You went there.
7 (45m 17s):
Thanks. So, so I auditioned at IRDAs and did that whole thing. And then I got a call back from them and I, it was like weird. Like I thought there was going to be like some like bigger process or something. Like, am I going to, I was like, ready, you know, with like my other, like, do you want 16 bars? Do you need other other monologues? Like, well, what's the deal? And it was just kind of like a done thing. So I was like, Yeah, it's like at the callback, there was like, it was an IRDAs. And it's like, you'd go to the person's hotel room, which now seems really creepy what, with a couple other people.
7 (45m 57s):
And it just seemed like I liked the person who did the interview and I was like, they're in Chicago. This seems great. I
2 (46m 7s):
Like to act in a hotel room. I've never
7 (46m 9s):
Done. Like, the audition was in, like, I don't even know where it was like the ballroom. It was like, there was like a black box sort of like made up situation. So you audition and then like the next day or a few hours later, you get like a sheet with a little list of the schools that want to like talk to you or whatever. And we have been like through the ringer with my undergrad teacher and she's like, okay, you need to have, like, you had like your folder with your monologues. And like, if someone wanted a song, like your whole thing, it's like bootcamp and you're ready. So I'm like prepared for somebody to ask me to do anything. And I don't know, I got called back to like a lot of places, which I was like, oh my God, none of them asked me for anything.
7 (46m 54s):
Which maybe looking back, maybe that was like, not a great situation. I don't know what that means.
2 (46m 60s):
They were just the, and the call back. They were just meeting you. Right. They were just wanting to know if you were like,
7 (47m 4s):
Yeah, I guess
1 (47m 6s):
You're acting probably wow. Like really? They probably would have if they were on the fence, but that probably wasn't that they probably wanted to do what, you know, they, they, a chemistry breed or whatever the fuck they call it. Right.
7 (47m 18s):
Yeah. I guess. But this meaning with the person at Roosevelt, it's like, she was nice. It was great. It felt good. So I was like, all right, maybe that's where I'm going. And I knew I wanted to get Chicago. So like, that was, that was the deal.
2 (47m 36s):
It's an undergrad. You were not thinking this at all. I'm guessing you don't come from a performing family or you, you weren't doing this in high school.
7 (47m 44s):
Oh my God. Well, there was like the junior play or whatever that like pays for the prom, you know, like that kind of a situation. But otherwise, like I did community theater and I'm from a town of like 10,000 people. So there wasn't like really a community theater. I did Annie and Mike, I don't know, 10th grade or something.
1 (48m 3s):
Amazing.
7 (48m 4s):
Really upset. I couldn't be Annie. I was like a Senator. And like the apple salesman. I was like that guy I'm like running around doing whatever anybody wanted me to do.
1 (48m 20s):
Funny. That's why he could do a lot funny.
2 (48m 23s):
Yeah. Interchangeable. Okay. So day one, you're at Roosevelt. Is this the education that you thought you were going to get
7 (48m 32s):
Funny? You should ask. So this, when I went, which was, this was 2000 yes. 2000. So it was their first year of their MFA program.
1 (48m 44s):
Oh shit.
7 (48m 46s):
Oh shit is right. They accepted 30 people take that in verse
1 (48m 54s):
30
7 (48m 55s):
MFA. Oh yeah.
1 (48m 57s):
It's too many people that just like five.
7 (49m 0s):
Thank you. I think that if I'm being kind, I think they accepted a huge amount of people thinking that, you know, with everything going on that like maybe 10, which is still too many would accept. So there were 30 of us. So we're there on the first day. And I'm just like, this seems
7 (49m 44s):
I was just like,
1 (49m 45s):
Hmm,
7 (49m 47s):
This doesn't seem right. But you know, I was like 24. So I'm like so happy to be there. I'm living in my friend's base. My friend's mom's basement until I find an apartment just like, you know, desperate twenties times. So immediately. I was like, I, this is hi. All right.
1 (50m 11s):
I think I should get off this rollercoaster right now, but it's already going, right?
7 (50m 16s):
Yeah, totally. I just like was on. And because I didn't have like necessarily the support of my parents where this entire thing, I was like, fight or flight. Like I will do this. If I have to hang on to the side of the building and sleep like that, or like, whatever it is, I'm gonna do this. So I did it.
2 (50m 49s):
And is it a typical curriculum, voice and speech and movement and all that stuff?
7 (50m 54s):
Yeah. I was sort of surprised by all of it. The program that I did in undergrad, I felt, I don't know. I guess everyone in undergrad, if you're doing theater stuff there, you think that like, what you're doing is like enough and great. And that's how everything's going to go. So to spend like three hours a day in a movement class, suddenly when you're like, God damn it, let me do a monologue or a scene or sing a song. Like let me work. You know, I understand that that is also work and it's fundamental, but it was really shocking to me.
1 (51m 37s):
You know, what's interesting is like, and you're not the first person that I've, I felt this, that we've had on the show is like, what I would eat. Like you should have maybe gone right to second city and just done that call that five-year conservatives And gotten the fuck out, but it's not accredited. It's not like a real university that would probably make your parents even more like unhappy. And so, but like you needed like a professional program, like there's conservatory training for actors and then there's professional programs. And I wish I had done, so. Okay. But you're in this. How long was the Roosevelt MFA program?
7 (52m 15s):
Three years. Oh,
1 (52m 16s):
Fuck. Right.
2 (52m 18s):
And was it the thing where you can't perform the first year, but then you do and you're in the casting pool with VFS.
7 (52m 26s):
Yeah, I, we couldn't perform in the first year though, at the end of the first semester, they opened up an audition to be an intern at Chicago Shakespeare, which was like super exciting. So I auditioned and then I was doing the second semester, I got to be an intern and be on stage and do king Lear, Chicago, Shakespeare. I mean, I was like, you know, a dude, a homeless person running around. Oh, we got it. Yeah. So then I was like, oh no, this is great. I'm like with like these amazing people that I don't know who they are yet, but I will.
7 (53m 9s):
And there, those people are amazing
2 (53m 12s):
In that
7 (53m 13s):
Greg VIN CLER.
1 (53m 15s):
Oh yeah.
7 (53m 18s):
Barbara Gaines director.
1 (53m 20s):
Yeah. She's amazing. She's she's famous for, for me, for my one audition I had there, she yawned during my whole model to be fair, but to be fair, it was really boring. Like, it was really boring. She was basically doing what I wish I could have done. It was boring. My shit was boring. She was like this. Can't see. But yeah, she was rude, but apropos I sucked anyway. Okay. So you were, you got to work at shakes and so you were like, okay, but did you make friends? What was the vibe like? BFA was the BFA program established at that time?
7 (54m 2s):
I think so. Oh, and that part. Okay. Like whatever I'll say about Roosevelt, which I don't have, I don't know necessarily great things to say about the program. It doesn't even exist anymore, PS, by the way. But the BFA program, the program for undergrads, I thought that was like, excellent. Like, I was like happy for those kids. Like that seemed like good. And they were having a good time, but for us it was just, I don't know. It just felt kind of sad and different.
2 (54m 26s):
So your parents were psyched about the idea of you being a journalist. That's what they thought you were going to.
7 (54m 32s):
I think the imaginary plan was that I would, or what I sold them at the time was I'm gonna get this journalism degree and then I'm gonna go to law school.
1 (54m 43s):
Oh,
2 (54m 45s):
Right. That's everybody's, catch-all hilarious.
7 (54m 48s):
So that's what I'm going to do. But then I was like, but these plays, these people, it's really the people that are purchased more fun.
2 (54m 57s):
I actually got dressed so many people in for exactly that reason. It's just something that's like tribal feeling that you don't know that you don't have it until you find it. And then you go, oh my God.
7 (55m 8s):
Yeah. It was really, it was really all encompassing. I was like, well, I can't not be with these people.
2 (55m 15s):
What kind of shows did you do there at Roosevelt?
7 (55m 18s):
I all right. So, so there was that first year experience. And then I don't know. I let's see, I did my last year.
1 (55m 30s):
Yeah. It just sticks out in your brain
7 (55m 33s):
Threepenny opera. And then there was this weird Asian adoptation of the rope by whatever old Greek guy,
2 (55m 47s):
Asian adaptation.
7 (55m 48s):
So here's one of the weird things about the program. So there were a couple of classes that made zero sense that we were taking as actors. One was, we all had to take a stage management management course. I don't know. Did you guys have to know
1 (56m 5s):
I
7 (56m 5s):
Was like
1 (56m 5s):
Crew, but I don't even know. No.
7 (56m 8s):
Well, yeah, like working on a cruise, like that's normal, but in an entire semester demo devoted to stage management just seems kind of rude.
2 (56m 18s):
It sounds like they needed stage managers for their shows
1 (56m 22s):
Teachers. Yeah.
7 (56m 25s):
And then there is a professor there who white lady who loved Asian theater. And so, yeah. Pause for that
1 (56m 37s):
PF chains of, she was trying to be the PF Chang's PF J
7 (56m 44s):
God lover. I mean, yes. I'm interested in Asian theater too, but everyone was required as part of the MFA program to take an Asian theater class. So, which is interesting. I'm not knocking like any of that, but the PA I don't know the possibility of me being in an Asian.
2 (57m 7s):
Yeah. Like what's the really,
1 (57m 11s):
It just sounds like she had a thing for her thing was Asian theater and she wanted everyone else's thing.
7 (57m 16s):
Total your thing. She had studied in, I don't know, Japan, I think, and had done this whole program and it was like her, she may even have like a PhD on it. I don't really know, but that was her thing and good for her. Awesome.
1 (57m 31s):
Why are you teaching? But it's
7 (57m 33s):
Not practical. Yeah. It just seems like weird. So the play I did, I did the, the rope, which is like a Greek play. Never
2 (57m 42s):
Heard of it.
1 (57m 43s):
I wish you had done the rain anyway.
7 (57m 48s):
So she translated the play into a Kyogen style thing, which is a very specific Asian theater style play. Not only that, not only that, but like, I have always been openly unapologetically sort of who I am, which means, hello, I'm a homosexual and it's clear and I'm not like afraid of that as an actor or a person. So I played the, yeah, get ready. I played the, I don't want to call it like the evil sister, but I played like the villain in the play, which was like an older, which type woman in the play.
7 (58m 40s):
And that was supposed to be hilarious.
1 (58m 48s):
That's really where we're headed in the arts. I'm also saying the arts in the logs shit went down. Not that
7 (58m 56s):
Some weird shipments out. Yeah. So it's like thinking about that now you would like wants to like light all of Chicago on fire. Right? Correct. But at the time, this I guess was like, cool, cool. And inventive to make the one gay guy that you were Sure was gay play a woman Asian drag. Oh my gosh. The whole thing is like Asian themed rides.
1 (59m 39s):
So. What the fuck?
7 (59m 42s):
So just a bunch of white people running around and kimonos speaking in a very like, you know, meter to style Asian thing. And I'm a woman also.
2 (59m 53s):
I wish we had a video. I really want to watch this play. I mean, just like for a snippet, because you know, when you think of yourself and how seriously you took a role when you were young and you and you, and you just in your mind's eye, even if there's no video and you just imagine, like, what does this actually look like? And that's always looks funny, no matter what or sad. If it's a comedy, it looks sad. And if it's True. So that was one. Did you have any roles that you liked?
7 (1h 0m 29s):
I mean, kind of, well, there was like a, a directing project that one of my friends did. It was like a Steve Martin one act. And I was like, yeah, right. Like it was like a legit play that was like funny and good. And I had like the lead and I was like, it was like us, like a straight man that I was playing. And I like felt excited because it felt like I was like reaching. I'm not reaching, but you know what I mean? You're like, oh, this is a play. I'm like, yeah. I was like, do a thing. And I like am working for this goal to do. And I felt like I was successful in it and it felt good.
7 (1h 1m 9s):
But like, that was probably the one, even in my thesis role, which was like, I was like a random chorus person in Threepenny opera, literally it's my third year. I'm like, Hmm. I have to write 30 pages now on yeah. That's, it's like that.
1 (1h 1m 27s):
The thing like that, I just, and maybe you guys could chime in. And in terms of the curriculum, there doesn't seem to be an actual curriculum for these programs. Like now that I'm teaching, I'm like, wait, what, what is the
7 (1h 1m 42s):
Tactical?
1 (1h 1m 43s):
And what is the piece of paper that you can point to, to say, this is the mission of these three years for these MFA actors. There is no plan. What is the plan? That's what I feel about a lot of this is, and it's still to this day in, in conservatories, what is the fucking plan? Because there doesn't seem to be one and there's not a plan. We shouldn't be charging dollars to these people. I just, I, it should be, then it should be camp, a freak out where we go when we, I don't know. Anyway. So
2 (1h 2m 15s):
I mean, honestly, like it's, it needs to be treated a little bit more like a school and pass fail, right?
7 (1h 2m 23s):
Yeah. Like the goal it's like, if you're a journalist, like, can you do these things? Can you write a bituaries? Can you write a news story? Can you do the, you know what I mean? So it's like, when I leave this place, am I going to be able to get a job? And I know that like, everyone's like, theater's like, oh gosh, you're never going to work or whatever, but that, it's just not true. It's like, everything is the same. There are basic skills. Do you have them,
1 (1h 2m 50s):
There are milestones to meet along the way. And if you, I mean, anyway, I it's just, the more we interview folks, the more I'm like, oh, this whole higher ed situation, fine arts needs a whole overhaul. I don't know what it's going to take, but we'll probably be extinct on the planet before it happened. So I just feel like maybe that's the way it's going to go and okay. But like, okay, so you graduate, you then are like, okay, I have this MFA. Then what happens to you
7 (1h 3m 21s):
By the end of the program? I was really like, I don't know. I feel like it kind of, it kind of broke me because things like that were happening, which in a way is like, I mean, at the time we didn't have the language for like, you know, playing an Asian woman in a play, like it's offensive. And it's like, not furthering me. It's racist. It's not furthering me as an actor. I'm not going to leave here and like run around and Komodo and place for the rest of my life. It just kind of broke me. And a lot of the, I would say some of the teachers, the whole situation just didn't make me feel good.
7 (1h 4m 4s):
So at the end, I was like, you know what, maybe? Hm. I don't know. I need, I needed a break from that whole world. I mean, I did audition for awhile, but the shortest while
1 (1h 4m 21s):
How short,
7 (1h 4m 26s):
Maybe it was a couple years
1 (1h 4m 28s):
Because we have Gina's trajectory and mine, mine too. Like I stopped after I stopped after three.
7 (1h 4m 35s):
Yeah. I was probably three years. Like slowly, just petered out. I mean, I got to the point where I'm like going. So I went on a few theater auditions in the beginning and then I had an agent and I would go on these, like on camera calls. And I would just be like, oh my God, I'm in this giant room with a hundred people that are dressed and look just like me. This is the most pressing thing. Like, I just was like, I can't, this isn't, this doesn't feel good either.
2 (1h 5m 6s):
I want to hear how eventually, how we get to storytelling. But before we do, I just, I didn't want to leave the whole Roosevelt thing without, I don't think I've really asked anybody this before, but you're not the first person who basically says to us, like, I'm gay. They didn't know what to do with me in theater school. Right.
7 (1h 5m 30s):
So
2 (1h 5m 32s):
I don't know if this is a question or a comment or what, or like just a prompt for discussion, but what is the barrier there? I mean, it seems like what you're saying about this role that you got cast, it's like, you're gay. So you'd like to wear drag. Is that what the thinking was?
7 (1h 5m 47s):
I don't know. For me, it's two things. It's like, there's the gay thing for sure. But also I'm funny. So if you're in a serious theater program, please understand I'm doing some heavy air quotes because every theater program thinks they're a serious theater program. They really do not know what to do with people who are fitting into the definition of serious. And so I think yes, there is like me, the stereotypical gay person or whatever, if I am so there's that person, but that's usually a funny person.
7 (1h 6m 28s):
And so then they don't like it totally. This is serious. We're doing real serious work here. How can this work?
1 (1h 6m 38s):
It makes that, that makes me, it makes sense. And it also makes me so angry, just Raging, also like fucking pick different motherfucking material. You've that fits your mother fucking class. You dumb fucks. That is what we're supposed to be doing is picking material that highlight our students and help them grow in a way and not the pick different place.
7 (1h 7m 3s):
Well, that's really where in that and the whole situation, I feel like that's, that's what sort of killed me is that there wasn't a place for me. No one cared to create one and you are, I already felt like I don't fit here. I don't belong. And so it's just like that slowly, just really like sinks in. So you've got that going on. You've got your there with 30 actors and it was kind of, honestly, it was sort of like easy to just like hide, you know, unless I'm being called to play the Asian lady on the play. So it's just like a kind of just was like, eh,
1 (1h 7m 43s):
Yeah, you gave up. But they gave up on at first.
7 (1h 7m 48s):
It is honestly,
1 (1h 7m 50s):
We give up when people give up on us first, especially as young people.
2 (1h 7m 53s):
That's true. That's true. So you're in audition rooms after school. You're, you're feeling like this is depressing. There's 5,000 mess and we all look the same. How, how did, how did you evolve from that to what you're currently doing, which I'm going to go on a limb and say is fulfilling to you artistically fulfilling to you what you're doing?
7 (1h 8m 13s):
I would say yes. Okay. How did that happen? I mean, after, you know, just deciding I'm not going to go on these calls anymore. I just, like, I was like, okay, then I'll, I'm working in a restaurant. So that's what I'm, I'm gonna work in. I work in restaurants now. That's what I do. And I did that for a while. And then I was just like, okay, but wow, this can't be it. Like, even if you, as an actor, like whatever level you achieve as an actor, I think there's always that part of you. Who's like, yeah, but like, can I talk somewhere?
7 (1h 8m 54s):
And people just like to listen to me or just let me tell, you know, just get really enthusiastic with storytelling at a party. Or like, whatever. I, I didn't know about the moth or a storytelling or any of that stuff. I really was just like this theater experience, grad school was so bad for me. And I'm too afraid to go to second city to do improv because I had sat through, you know, the first year of friends doing that. And I was like, well, I'm not doing this terrifying. So I thought, Hey, what if I get some actors together?
7 (1h 9m 37s):
And we will write monologues, which is how I thought of it at the beginning, it'll be like loosely based on a theme and we'll do a monologue show. I think I had just seen Nora Ephron's play love loss and what I wore. And so there's all these women on stage telling this like, story. And I was like, oh my God, I'm not a playwright. I can never like, make this happen necessarily. But like, if there are people on a stage and then they're just like one by one, like telling a story based on a theme, like, oh my gosh, this is revolutionary. I've just invented this whole new thing. So that is sort of where I started.
1 (1h 10m 14s):
When was that? I'm sorry, what was that?
7 (1h 10m 17s):
2010
2 (1h 10m 19s):
And tell, tell everybody where it is now.
7 (1h 10m 23s):
Well, now it's at Steppenwolf, which breaks my brain Back to the theater. Yeah.
2 (1h 10m 32s):
Do you feel any? Okay, so the feeling of walking into Steppenwolf with this thing that you're walking in the door before you walked in the door, you already know they want you, what's that feeling like? And D are you thinking about yourself as an actor or the old sense of as, as you thought of yourself at the time as an actor?
7 (1h 10m 54s):
Definitely. I think as it goes on more and more, I get confused. Like, am I an actor? Am I this writer person? And I understand now more and more than it does, like that definition, does it matter? Like the distinction doesn't matter, but yeah, like I regularly am in communication with like, like, like it makes me emotional. I'm like regularly in communication with the kid and what his dreams were and what he wanted to achieve and how you can get to a place beyond your dreams. And it just might not be exactly how you think it's going to be or what it looks like or any of that stuff.
1 (1h 11m 33s):
Yes. I love that. I mean, I think it's also important for our listeners to just thoroughly to say that again, like the way I thought I was going to get somewhere did not go down that, and it's not, it's still transforming. And yet I am so grateful that it didn't go down that way that I thought it was going to go down for so many reasons. But when we are 21 and 22 and 24, it is like the hugest tragedy to think that we would have to say goodbye to sitting in a room with 5,000 of us that look just like us and have to go to the restaurant and then go to the storytelling community and then end up back at Steppenwolf.
1 (1h 12m 17s):
We can't fathom that. That would be a good thing. It's the best thing.
7 (1h 12m 21s):
It's the best thing. I mean, ultimately like whatever happened to me there and that time, and a lot of it I'm responsible for whatever happened to me. I'm grateful for. I feel like it taught me a lot of, a lot of lessons.
2 (1h 12m 38s):
I agree with what you just said, boss, but I'm going to offer a little bit of a counterpoint, which is it's got, it's hard to make the distinction between what you just said. And what's, that's definitely true for, for my life. Like my idea of how I was going to get somewhere, because I couldn't be literally just like that a to B to C that I just thought I had to let it go all the way. But, but there's a difference between that and knowing you really have something and you need to stick with it because the average time that it really takes a seven years, right. For somebody knocking around a dish, and that's what you hear a lot, like seven years, it was eight years. It was 10 years before I finally, so like, how does a PR person who's maybe just graduating this year, listening to this?
2 (1h 13m 22s):
How are they going to, how do they select that for themselves? It's a question for both of you.
1 (1h 13m 27s):
Do you mean how do you know? Like, whether it's time to do something else or just keep at it? Oh, I think it becomes for me, it's like, if it feels intolerable and like, you want to die and you're depressed and anxious all the time, but it's time to try something else. Like literally that's what it took for me. It was like, no, no, I'm going to act, I'm going to try it. I'm going to go to LA. And then even though I work for Nick cage, I'm going to do it. I'm still an actor inside. This is really my calling. And then in oh seven, trying again, when I'm a therapist, no, I'm really an actor. And I think it wasn't until I was like, oh no, no, no. Like I had, for me was like, I knew that the cost of pretending that the hustle of trying to be an actor was too great.
1 (1h 14m 9s):
And it was, I got too old and I was taking too much of a toll on my mental and physical, mostly mental and emotional health that I was like, no, it's time to pivot. But like, I think, and I think you're right. Beans. And what I'm hearing is like, every kid has to know that for them has to go through it for themselves. And sometimes people take seven years of that and then they, something hits and it's like, they find their stride. And sometimes after seven years something hits and they still realize they're miserable. Even after something hits, like even after they get the role. So for me, it's a mental health check at all times to know if the shit is working, but yeah. Who knows what the Jeremy, what?
7 (1h 14m 47s):
No, I fully agree with that whole thing. It's like, you don't know. I just, like I had like that little nugget of, I'm not a restaurant person. Like I'm really good at pretend. Like, I mean, I'm okay at math, but I'm like really going to be like the office manager forever. I mean, currently I'm an office manager somewhere, but like that is it like, that's the end of the line after all of this work and like all this stuff. I mean, I love theater. I love being a part of any thing with theater. So like, that is the end. And I, I think for me, it's just like my anxiety and my like stress, mental health, all that stuff. I finally, it was just like, no, listen, like I have to like get somehow on the other side of that and pursue this because I, this cannot be, this is not enough.
2 (1h 15m 37s):
Yeah. And I guess if, if I think back to myself at that time, my feeling about trying to be an actor wasn't that it made me depressed and anxious. The thing that was in the back of my mind that I would've never put in the front of my mind is nobody will ever want me there's this is a few tile. Like, yes, I want to do this. Yes. I don't want to do anything, but this, yes, I have never wanted to have another career besides this, but it doesn't work for me because nobody's ever going to want me. So it was all like a self-defeating thing, which is different than, you know, actually interacting with the world and seeing if they want me for not.
1 (1h 16m 12s):
And I think, I wonder what would have happened, like to two people like you and me, or just to you, if you had said, okay, well, fuck that voice for a second. And what if, if I wonder if the voice gets quieted for a while, like, let's say you had landed on a big TV show for whatever reason, you're the star. I wonder what manifestation that voice would, how that voice would manifest itself. Even if you were doing a thing that you thought was the thing that we wanted to do. And we'll, we won't know because thank God you didn't do that because it could have led to disaster or not. But I just it's like that voice, whatever I keep inside, I always am wondering, okay, like, even if this consulting practice takes off, if I don't address my voice that says, nobody, you have nothing to say, dah, dah, dah, will that ever really fully take off and make me happy?
1 (1h 16m 60s):
It's so interesting. It's like, I don't know. I think it's like fucking trial and error, dude. Everything, everything, everything.
7 (1h 17m 7s):
I agree though. I do like, and more think that in, I don't know what the class would be, but I feel like somewhere along the line in theater school, there should be somebody who goes around and tells everyone that there's more than one path. Like if you're not you're, if you're not going to play Juliet, like if that's like your whole life goal, like there are other ways like stand up is a way storytelling is a way, like, there are so many ways to be involved. And just because you're not auditioning and doing monologues and like I'm in a play or I'm auditioning for a commercial, like there are so many ways to be like a performing artist or, you know, so many ways, but none of them have the respect that like, you know, I'm doing Shakespeare or whatever thing,
2 (1h 17m 57s):
Right. There should be somebody who wants to be around. Like they have on sets, somebody from equity or from bag or whatever, walking around and being like, is everybody treating you? Okay. They need to have a para, a paraprofessional. And
7 (1h 18m 10s):
Or maybe you just like in an audition room, just being like, you know what, sweetheart, like, I, I see your stress, the seeder sweating. And I want you to know that there's more than just like this carpet commercial or whatever,
2 (1h 18m 22s):
Doula and acting doula. Right. A comforting person,
1 (1h 18m 29s):
You know? Like I feel like it, it does fall on sort of us as well. I'll speak for myself. I got an older generation middle-aged now I'm middle-aged now. And it's like, when I go in, I remember the first time I went in with a young sister and I played her mom in an audition, right. For television or something. And she was like shaking and believe me, I still shake sometimes. But she was like, shaky, can't see it on the podcast. But she was shaking, shaking. And I just turned to her and I said, listen, which was lovely. Maybe 17, 16. I said,
7 (1h 18m 59s):
Oh my God,
1 (1h 18m 60s):
I was in high school. Still. This was like a special, she was like one of those good, like beautiful kids that went from in high school to, to real audition, you know? And I said, listen, we're not going to die in there. We're going to die one day, but we're not going to fucking die in that room. My friend, we're going to go in there, we're going to do these like lines about the alcoholic mom and the daughter, and then you're going to be okay. And she was like, thank you, thank you so much. And she still shook and it didn't make her up, but I just want her to know that like, listen, like I see,
7 (1h 19m 28s):
Well,
1 (1h 19m 28s):
I also see you, I see what's happening here. And I just want to acknowledge that. Like, it feels really scary, but I see that, that you're, I guess that's all I just want because nobody ever, I mean, that was how I felt. And you said it, Jeremy at the, at the theater school is that nobody ever saw me for who I really was and said, Hey, you have a gift for X, Y, and Z, whatever that is. You have no one sees when you don't feel seen, you just stop seeing yourself. And then it's all downhill from there. So I think people really want to be seen, especially young actors and,
7 (1h 20m 3s):
Well, I mean, I was like 24. Like, can you remember being 24? Like that is like first off, like the worst miserable time. And they're like, am I supposed to be making this big adult choice? And like, no, one's there for me. Like, I mean, there are certainly exceptions to that, but
1 (1h 20m 23s):
Yeah.
7 (1h 20m 23s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 20m 24s):
So like, would it be fair to say that when you were growing up, I mean, you, you weren't planning to necessarily be an actor your whole life, but what would be fair to say that one of the things that was really gratifying to you when you found your people wa was that you had an occasion to speak in a context where people understood you and, and appreciated you, that you didn't have that before.
7 (1h 20m 50s):
I mean, yeah, you definitely, I mean, when I found theater people, I would say that that happens. Like I was like, oh, I something in my brain, just like you connect to like a group of people. And Logista just there's I don't know. You know, there's like, there's something about like theater people and it's like, you either have that, like your end antennas up for that like message and that community, or you don't. And I feel like when I landed with them, I felt like together or somehow
2 (1h 21m 26s):
A little bit more about what you're doing a symbol of. I mean, you have a podcast and it's a storytelling podcast, but no. Okay. It's just a Steppenwolf. Say, say more about it.
7 (1h 21m 37s):
I wish I had a podcast, but I'm like, I can't like I'm doing, I'm like a one man band. So like, if I could make a podcast happen, I would do that. Like somebody do that for me. So it's, we're at 71 May 26th, 27th and 28. The show is the theme is joy. So there are eight performers and all telling a story based on that theme, which is interesting. I think it's Brenda Brown. Who's like says, if you ask people to tell you about like joy, they're gonna tell you about the heartache, that how they got to, instead of, I was imagining, this is the first time I've done a show in like two and a half years.
7 (1h 22m 20s):
I'm so excited. Let's celebrate. And then I get, I take submissions for the show. And so, so many of them, I was like, Ooh, maybe this was the wrong. So many are. And they're wonderful. They're beautiful. But it's like, so many of them have a heartbreak or loss or you just like things that happen that I was like,
1 (1h 22m 47s):
The show is called, you're being ridiculous. And just tell us quickly about the title. What about that? Because it's a very specific title.
7 (1h 22m 54s):
I had a blog early on when I first moved to Chicago and I made my friend name it. And if we, this is like, not even like a story story, but like, I guess one point I, we started saying that is like a thing to each other. Like you're being ridiculous about everything you're being ridiculous. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to start a blog. And that's what it's going to be called. And then the blog. And then it was like, when I was doing the show, it was like, what should I call it? Oh, well you're being ridiculous.
2 (1h 23m 22s):
But how did you get from the blog to the, I mean, you just, I guess you said you had the idea, it felt like a new art form to
7 (1h 23m 32s):
You.
2 (1h 23m 33s):
Right. And, and you found it, a lot of people who were willing to, is it mostly actors who you found that have been willing to write a story and tell it?
7 (1h 23m 41s):
Well, there's like the storytelling there's like, now there's like a storytelling community at the beginning. I was like, oh, I have some actor, friends. And those are the people that I can get to do it. And now it's like, there's like a mix of both story people and actor people. There's like actors. I love that I want to work with. And so I like will beg people to do it. Like Sam Irby, Jen has done it, actors in the world. I'm trying to think Molly. Right.
2 (1h 24m 12s):
Okay.
1 (1h 24m 13s):
It's so fun. And it's also really cool for, for those of us who dreamed of, so when I graduated at the theater school, I was in a Steppenwolf kids show. Right. And then that, and then I thought I had made it right. And then I went away and did an act. So coming back to do your show at Steppenwolf, I was like, oh my God, I'm back in the Steppenwolf dressing room. And it looks very different of course, but it's fancy. It feels fancy. There is something about it that legitimizes for me the 18 20, 24 year old saying, okay, I am back at this institution that I felt I was not wanted at for 20 years. And now here I am. And also the cool thing about your show is that I had the feeling of, oh, and this time I'm here, I'm doing it my way.
7 (1h 25m 1s):
Right. I feel the same way. Like I just going there, like every time, the first, like the first night that we do it, every time we've done it there, every time I get like emotional and like connecting with, you know, all of that theater school stuff. And like, I'm here. Like, I don't know if this means anything or is real, is real or like, whatever, but it's just like connects with, I got here and I got here in my own way.
2 (1h 25m 30s):
Do you still have a desire to act?
7 (1h 25m 34s):
That's what I almost wanted to have like a, like a therapy session with you guys about like, I have written a solo show, but I'm like, so traumatized by everything. We've just talked about that I'm having a really hard, like I, right before the pandemic, actually, it was supposed to be at Steppenwolf right before the pandemic. I wrote this, the show and had a reading with friends and then I like made myself schedule it with them. And it was like one of the first things that died in the pandemic was the solo show. And so I need to like, get back to that and do it, but I'm having a really hard time.
7 (1h 26m 14s):
Like, I feel like wildly afraid, but also, I mean, your question is like, do we want to do like theater stuff again? And I'm like, yeah. I mean, I do. I feel like both wildly afraid and like more grounded and confident at the same time about my abilities and his as an actor, even though I haven't acted. I don't know.
2 (1h 26m 42s):
When you think of when you can feel the feeling of fear, is it like, nobody's going to show up, I'm going to forget my lines. It's not going to be good. What's the fear,
7 (1h 26m 52s):
All of those things
1 (1h 26m 55s):
I think, I think. Yeah. And I, I hear you. And I also wonder something that cook hers to me was occurring to me about you throughout this whole interview, is that you, you could be the next John Oliver. I have this feeling about you. That is like gonna mix journalism and your funniness and your, your solo show ness about having a, I'm just wondering if you could view it as your solo show being sort of, I don't know, an experiment in and being curious about what it is, first of all, what could it look like?
1 (1h 27m 35s):
What is it? And also, I, I think that there's something about journalism that really sticks out for me, for you, like in terms of your wit and in terms of your passion, and we've never seen someone like you with your own sort of talk show type situation. So I'm just that it's like some Weird, like fruit, fruit, like I got intuition while you were telling me
2 (1h 27m 58s):
What, if you did a storytelling talk show? What if you, what if you got so good at helping people identify what their own stories were that you could do it with just a crowd of regular people, right?
1 (1h 28m 10s):
Yeah. I like just, I think, and I love that. And I think that the, that what I'm getting at is like, if you can approach, like, okay, the only way I get on a plane is if I look at how am I being of service by where I'm going. Okay. So, okay. That's the only way, cause I'm petrified to fly. So what if with your solo show, we took the same approach, which is okay. Like whether it's service or not. I don't know, but thought about it in a different way in terms of how to get it done. Like, is there a greater purpose than my fear? That's the only way I do think that I'm afraid of
7 (1h 28m 46s):
It was like changed my life with that question because like, I also can't stand the fly. I literally drive everywhere because I can't deal. I can't deal with it.
1 (1h 28m 54s):
So I'm wondering,
7 (1h 28m 56s):
What's that question again? I'm literally going to write it down.
1 (1h 28m 59s):
I don't remember, but we recorded
7 (1h 29m 0s):
The greater,
2 (1h 29m 2s):
Oh, the question is what is, what is a greater purpose that's being served about doing this thing? Then my fear is, you know,
1 (1h 29m 12s):
Greater than my fear. And for me, if I know I'm going to, like, if Gina called me and said, I need you to fly here because I'm having a nervous breakdown or whatever, I would say, okay, I got to go. Like, there would be no. Oh, but I'm an anxious. I would be like, fuck it. Just get on the plane. Because I know that the thing I'm doing is greater than my fear,
7 (1h 29m 31s):
Meaning
1 (1h 29m 32s):
It motivates me more. Right. So
2 (1h 29m 35s):
Anyway, autobiographical year, one person show.
7 (1h 29m 38s):
Yes.
2 (1h 29m 39s):
Okay.
7 (1h 29m 40s):
If you're
2 (1h 29m 40s):
Afraid of that.
7 (1h 29m 41s):
Well, so that, but I mean, a lot of it is like stuff I've done before for the show. So I don't know.
1 (1h 29m 48s):
You see the differences, this is all about you. So like the solo show becomes there's nowhere to hide, right? So there's nowhere to hide. There's no other performers, there's no other,
7 (1h 29m 58s):
I'm
1 (1h 29m 59s):
Curating other people's vision. You know,
2 (1h 30m 2s):
I volunteered to be your solo show doula. I've always here For, you could just bounce. Like, I mean, one of, probably many people that you would do, but you know, send me your outline and say, does it, and, and ask me what you know, asked me if, what your fear about how it's coming across. Ask me if that's true and I'll tell you,
7 (1h 30m 25s):
Right. Just
2 (1h 30m 29s):
No, I'm, I'm, I'm all about it because I actually, one of the greatest things BAAs has taught me is how to, how to always be thinking about how to be of service. Even when you're doing something that just feels like selfish. And it's just delightful to you. I mean, it's delightful for me to do anything related to theater. And if I could do it and be of service to another person, that's so much better,
7 (1h 30m 53s):
Right?
1 (1h 30m 53s):
Like it's, it's when you find for me, when I find my jam, right? Like my jam of whatever it is that it doesn't feel like it literally doesn't feel like work. And I never, I always thought that was the biggest load of crap being an immigrant's daughter. Like I was like, you work is work. Fuck you. It's supposed to feel hard and then you're going to die. And that's how it is. But now I'm like, oh, wait a second. I know what they mean. When they say, if you do something you love, you'll never work a day in your life. It's not about that. It's about like what my mom's whole vision of that was it's about what I feel energized by when I find my jam and I'm being of service,
2 (1h 31m 26s):
The energy. That's what it's about, man. It's totally about the thing that gives you energy instead of stopping your energy. Yeah.
1 (1h 31m 32s):
We're making you so afraid because fear, fear, SAPs energy, right? So it's like how to use it as in a way, find you you'll find your juice. And also it's okay to be afraid and like we know and do things anyway. And, but I think the purpose, finding that purpose for the show of service, which will take you out of your fear eventually. Not at first
7 (1h 31m 55s):
Right now. I know that too. Yeah. I mean the whole reason for the show. I mean, other like feeling like I'm getting, like, I'm doing theater again, my own way, then I'm fully in charge of, is the idea of being of service to other people, of offering the space to other people, to be able to, to have both be able to tell their story and to be able to do it at Steppenwolf is like, that is like, yeah,
1 (1h 32m 21s):
I will fucking dress up as you and do the goddamn show.
2 (1h 32m 26s):
So, so when you're ready to map, what does your one person should have a title?
7 (1h 32m 31s):
No, I can't figure it out.
2 (1h 32m 34s):
When you're being ridiculous is a, is mounting a Steppenwolf. You'll come back on the podcast and you'll tell us all about how you got there. How look you look back and you say, after that, I started thinking, and then I did, because that's all it is. It's like, you have the thought, you get a little encouragement, you do a little work on it. You let it sit, you go back. And then before you know it it's done. It's not always this monolith.
1 (1h 32m 59s):
Yeah. She's absolutely right. And then the, the other thing I was just going to say is there was before my solo show, this, this, this friend I had, who I'm no longer friends with because she was problematic. But she said to me, someone out there needs to hear what you have to say. So fuck you. And your fear basically, which works for me because that was how my mom did it. And she was like, someone needs to hear what you have to say, who are you to deny that shit, fucking talk to that person. And I'd be like, oh, I could talk to that person. I can't talk to these 10 people because there's probably an 11 in the audience, but I could talk to that one person. And it made it, she was like, fuck you get out there. Someone has to hear what you have to say, who are you to do? Like Renee brown says, or whoever Marianne, Williamson, whatever, those fucking, you know, smart white ladies say about like, you know, like who are you to deny your talent?
1 (1h 33m 45s):
Who are you like? No.
2 (1h 33m 48s):
Yeah. Don't, don't, don't keep your light under a barrel is out this expression.
1 (1h 33m 53s):
I like that better. Don't get your monkeys than the barrel.
3 (1h 34m 11s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plea chief, or the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: David Schwimmer, Zazie Beetz, Grace Gummer, and Joe Sikora teach us about sexual harassment,
Let Me Run This By You: I think a ghost is peeing in my basement. Fulling mills, alcoholics, Johnny Depp, Britney Spears.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (39s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. This is Gina reporting to you on a beautiful spring day. I hope it is a beautiful spring day wherever you are, or if it's not, I hope it will be very soon. We are guests lists in this episode today, as I reported to a couple of weeks ago should happens. We had recorded a great episode with a lovely person and just their audio didn't record at all. You know, just one of those things like internet gremlins, bloody body boss. So we're going to re up with him at some point, but we do have coming down the pike, a few really great episodes, including Glen Davis, the
2 (1m 28s):
Mel chick and severance. And if you listen to this podcast, do you know how much I love severance? I'm really, really excited about that one also Sumia Taka Shima. So we've got some really fantastic interviews lined up. I hope you will be tuning in and the upcoming weeks. And just another note to say, thank you so much for your ongoing support and listenership. We really love doing this podcast. Love making it for you. So we love that you enjoy listening to it. And if you haven't already, you should check out our website, undeniable writers.com and our social media.
2 (2m 14s):
We're on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Do you think we should get off of Facebook? Well, do you think we should get on Facebook? Do you think we should get off Twitter? See, I really want to make the great break. I want to get away from social media, but I feel I'm trapped now. You know, because professionally and personally, it's a great way to connect with a lot of people that I otherwise wouldn't be able to connect with, but it's, it's just this equal parts, terrible and wonderful creation, and we're all completely addicted to it. So, you know, who knows what's who knows how this is gonna work out for us?
2 (2m 55s):
Honestly, it could go either way. We could figure out a way to manage this problem and get on top of it and figure out a way to have enjoyment, but not addiction to social media. Or we could all find ourselves waking up in the middle of a Handmaid's tale. I mean, we are kind of headed that way. It's really looking like people want us to live in Gilliad. And for whatever reason, I just don't feel like people who don't want to live in Gilliad are good at making it so that we don't live in Gilead, myself included. What am I doing? I'm donating money.
2 (3m 36s):
I mean, fat, lot of good. That really does so, wow. This is taking a bad turn. I don't mean for it to do that. I really want to express my love and appreciation for you all and my excitement about our upcoming episodes and my wish that you connect with us on social media, that's killing us all. And I hope you enjoy today's episode, which we are entitling. I'm going to have to accept that. I will always look like Dora the Explorer at some point, please enjoy Hey, sexual harassment training.
2 (4m 41s):
So in order for my son to get his work permit, you know, through, you have to go through this training and it said it would take an hour. And I was thinking like, is that really gonna take an hour? It's like one full hour because it's one of these, did you ever have to do it? Yeah. You can't go to the next slide until
1 (5m 2s):
No, no. They make sure your ass is there for an hour. Gina.
2 (5m 6s):
That's right. And you know, I do have to say it is something I really miss about California. People complain about the bureaucracy and the, you know, and in this training, you know, it's infantilizing in certain ways. But like, if you have to make things accessible to all people and it's like, if it's infantilizing to you or you already know it, consider yourself lucky. Well also about the people that don't already know, it like
1 (5m 37s):
Gina, the, the majority of our world, especially those who harass people are in like infants who need hand-holding. So we need to infantilize them because they're fucking infants and they need this shit from the ground. Like, dude, I love it. Like, I love the fact that they won't, that they won't like fast-forward until you wash them. Because you know, these motherfuckers, the people who really need to watch it would fast forward through the whole thing and think they don't need it.
2 (6m 9s):
Yeah. I mean, maybe we actually need to be infantilizing. I am often accused of, You know, expecting too much from people, you know, like I just, the number of times somebody says to me, yeah. But I just don't think most people will understand that or, you know, think about it that way. Anyway, I completed it. And it was so the one you saw did it have like David Schwimmer and Zazie Beetz and Gracie Gummer I guess that was so sweet. And Joseph Cora,
1 (6m 48s):
Cora Joseph. I actually watched it with miles when miles, my husband had to do it for his new job. And I was like, I know all the And they must pay so much. I mean, like I either they're doing it for free or,
2 (7m 4s):
Oh, I assume they were doing it for free. I assumed it was like, we're doing this well. Cause it was through rain, rain made the videos. So I would assume that
1 (7m 13s):
People
2 (7m 14s):
Aren't asking rain to pay them
1 (7m 16s):
Like a million dollar
2 (7m 18s):
Scale or whatever.
1 (7m 21s):
No, my fee is actually 1.3 million for this sexual harassment for
2 (7m 27s):
Video, the second video
1 (7m 28s):
And tire rape video. Yeah. You're going to pay me anyway.
2 (7m 33s):
Hey, how are you? I love your crushed blue velvet.
1 (7m 37s):
Thank you. I, yeah, my, my standard thing now is like, I literally have like 10 meetings a day, which is hilarious. So a lot of it is my students getting ready to launch. So a lot of it is really motivated and highly stressed, 22 year olds that are like, ha who? And I love it. And I love meeting with them and they also are, you know, just exactly where we were the same thing of like, and in fact, a lot of them, yeah. They're ahead of where we were, because at least they know there's a fucking problem,
2 (8m 18s):
Right? Yeah. There, they don't necessarily have their head all the way up inside of the crevice of their ass. Like I did. Exactly. Well. That's cool. Yeah.
1 (8m 29s):
So I'm doing that. And like, I don't know. There was something I thought if you, I feel like I haven't talked to you in so long.
2 (8m 36s):
I agree. Well, I think it's because you have so many meetings. You're busy all day long. Thank goodness you have your new fancy office. How's it working?
1 (8m 44s):
I do. It's working great. We haven't, I'm in the focus room now because we don't have our rug yet. And our rug will mask all the sound. And also, yeah, I didn't to be in a booth. So we have these tall booths that are, are for doing this kind of thing, but the seat I'm old and the chair is not that comfortable. So I'm in the focus from, there's also a pumping room Moms. I don't go in that room, but there's a refrigerator in there. Like you can put your breast milk.
2 (9m 14s):
A cool,
1 (9m 14s):
Hilarious.
2 (9m 16s):
I pumped in so many disgusting places pumped at Yankee stadium. Yes. Like in the women's bathroom, take me out to the ball game or something like that. I've pumped in many bathrooms. I've pumped in while driving I've driving. Yes. It's, it's hard to be a woman. Did I tell you about Jesse Klein's book?
1 (9m 45s):
No.
2 (9m 46s):
Wait, Jesse Klein is a writer and she, she wrote her second book. First one was called. You'll grow out of it. And the second one, this one is called, I'll see myself out. She was the sh writer for inside Amy Schumer. She's now the show runner for, I love that for you, which I want to watch.
1 (10m 5s):
Yeah. I did not read the books and you love the first one, right? Or
2 (10m 9s):
I love the first one and I love the second one. The second one. She just, I mean, the thing about, cause she, she just really states a very, very, very true truth, which is that what certain women who are mothers just don't see a lot of like their experience of motherhood reflected in, in, Out there. Right. When I was pregnant with my first child, I read a book called the girlfriend's guide to having a baby. I picked this, it talked about infantilizing and finalizing only named book title, you know, from the other options because the other ones seemed, if you can believe even cornea or even worse in my lasting impression.
2 (11m 1s):
I mean, there was not that it was all terrible. I read that and I read a Jenny McCarthy book.
1 (11m 5s):
I was going to say, did you read the Jenny? That was your option.
2 (11m 9s):
That was my options. And my lasting impression of the girlfriend's guide book was like, it was a lot about how you were going to lose the weight after the baby. And her thing was like, this was her advice at the beginning of the week, make an enormous vegetable stew. And every time you're hungry, grab yourself a cup of this tasteless flavorless calorie list.
1 (11m 40s):
Oh my
2 (11m 41s):
God. And my ass, I did try to do it. I tried for like, cause I came home and I was like, oh, I still am six months pregnant. It looks like. So I, at that time, in my life, it was very concerned about getting back to my pre-baby weight, which never happens for most of us. And, and I basically, while I was nursing, I basically starved myself on this vegetable route. And all of this is to say, Jesse Klein says the unsayable. She speaks the taboos of like, listen, sometimes you regret being a mom. There are days where you're like, it wasn't worth it the other days where you say it was, but you're not allowed to ever feel like what gets reflected back to us as like, you know, you're so lucky.
2 (12m 29s):
It's a sh it's a miracle you should just forever be grateful for.
1 (12m 34s):
Well, the other thing that I'm noticing is, and you know, it's apropos mother's day just happened. Right? So I'm also noticing that there are, there's another school of people that are saying that our childless women are childless people, but mostly childless women that I know that are like, well, they did it to themselves. So like, I don't feel bad for them. And I don't have that feeling. I don't have kids, but I, I definitely feel like it is a choice for most people to have a kid. And I mean, if our government has its way, it will be a choice. Right. It'll be just your forest, but most people have a choice. And so, but just because you make a choice, this is my other thing.
1 (13m 15s):
And it's the same with like, people that, you know, talk about like people choosing to do drugs and choosing just because someone makes a choice does not mean that they are, they, they should deserve to suffer in some horrible way. If they're not happy with the choice or they've made a choice that on some days they feel like it wasn't the right choice. So I feel like to say like, oh, F mothers breeders and all that stuff. That is also for me not okay, because what it is saying is that right? Like, because you made this choice at a given point in your life, you now are like deserve any bad thing that comes from that choice.
1 (13m 54s):
And I don't believe, I feel three the best they can every day, whether it's a kid or whatever to get through. And so I think that's the backlash of, you know, the opposite of, of the childless movement, which is like people who choose to have children are somehow also for, I don't know.
2 (14m 14s):
Yeah. Well, we're all assholes. This is the point
1 (14m 18s):
Your essay was asshole. Just like us. So
2 (14m 21s):
That's like us, they are us. We are the assholes, all, every single one of us. So yeah. I, I mean, I totally understand. I see all sides of that argument. I see. I can understand why women who don't have want to have children feel, I understand why they are. They feel angry because they are made to feel like there's something wrong with them by multiple people, including therapists. And as you experienced seemingly benign comments that people think just being, I mean, do you get, do you get a lot of flack about not having kids? No.
1 (14m 56s):
I think I would, if my parents were alive, so I'm kind of glad they're dead on that way. And then also, because, because it would, my mom, well, the thing is that my mom, when I was taking care of her, the funny story is that she was pressuring me to have kids with miles and we had just gotten married and she was dying and it was not the right time clearly. And then towards the end, after when she was really dying, dying, and I was taking care of her and I was like, I would like boss her around because she wouldn't do what I said. I was like, mom, you cannot do this. You can not do that. Like I was so worried about her that I became a giant pain in the ass and she was like, maybe it's better. You don't have kids
2 (15m 51s):
For the last two years since we got actually, before we got Wallace, the dog, we had Millie the rabbit.
1 (15m 59s):
I
2 (16m 1s):
Was a sad APOC with Millie of the rabbit. My son wanted a rabbit. I said, no, my husband bought it when I was out of town. And I knew, yeah, I know I went out of town.
1 (16m 16s):
Well, it didn't, you do get a dog in Oakland when, when Aaron was out of town and you,
2 (16m 21s):
He wasn't out of town. I was just like on a walk with my friend that I came home with a dog. Yes.
1 (16m 25s):
And he said, and he said, something happened. And he said, did you meet bill Cosby? Yeah.
2 (16m 29s):
And she thought, I said, you have to come home because there's somebody I want you to meet. And all he could imagine it was that it was bill cost. Right? Yeah. Got it. Yeah. He would have been worried. So yeah. So when my son had Millie the rabbit, you know, he was learning what it means to take care of another creature. And he wasn't always that excited to take care of her. And one of the things that he did was let her free roam around certain places, which was against the rules. And one of the places that she free roamed was in our basement, which meant that she peed and pooped.
2 (17m 9s):
And we're, you know, years later we're still finding a little thing. Anyway, this meant that when we got Wallace, the dog and he went into the basement, he immediately peed off
1 (17m 20s):
All the things.
2 (17m 21s):
Correct. And so we stopped letting him go into the basement. I bought a case of this urine foam deodorizer shit. Cause we had rugs down there. That's in work. We threw the rugs away. We got carpet tiles. The idea like if it happens in one place we can clean or, or get rid of this one tile when I have to replace a whole rug. And that dog has not to, my knowledge has not been in the basement for at least a year. And it still smells like pee. We have steam cleaned and, and foam till the cows come up. When I tell you this is something I have dealt with every single day, since we've basically, since we've lived here, I it's no exaggeration.
2 (18m 9s):
And So what it is is my obsession. My obsessionality focuses on one of these things. All my energy gets put into this. When we lived in New York, it was the rats and the mice. Now it's the P So I, I approached this, like I am going to dominate the S P smell. Then my life is going to be complete. And I finally did it. I S I said, there's no more cleaning these carpet tiles. We've got to take them all up, which was very difficult to do. And we took them all up. I was so proud because I had to really face it, you know, getting down on my hands and knees.
2 (18m 51s):
I had to really contend with that. Smelling P is like the worst thing for me. I was so proud of myself, my two sons and I, we did all of the work. It didn't smell like pee last night for the very first time the whole family hung out in the basement because we have fun stuff to do down there. We've got a ping pong table and gymnastics equipment and workout stuff. And my daughter, and has been worked down there and I'm like, I'm going to join them. It doesn't suck to be in the basement anymore. We're having a great time. I felt like I was the, one of those prescription commercials. The montage
1 (19m 27s):
With the medicines like called like rejuvenate X or like Family.
2 (19m 33s):
I'm throwing my head back and laughing. And we're just enjoying this, having a grand old time. And I decided I'm going to move the laundry along. Cause our laundry is down there. And I pick up this thing of clean wash and stuff. I start folding. I pick up one, I smell pee.
1 (19m 55s):
Oh my God. Oh my God.
2 (19m 57s):
And I looked down and the laundry basket that it was put in was a cloth basket all around the bottom. I see it like a four inch ring of yellow around the bottom of my laundry basket. The basket. Well, here are my options for what happened. A Wallace knows how to open the door and goes downstairs to pee. When nobody's looking, it seems unlikely B he somehow gets down there when somebody forgets to close the door. But even then it seems unlikely. Cause I wouldn't. I would know if that happened with any frequency.
2 (20m 40s):
See, There's a ghost peeing in my Apigee
1 (20m 47s):
Ghost.
2 (20m 48s):
Migos
1 (20m 49s):
Unlikely,
2 (20m 51s):
Unlikely.
1 (20m 54s):
I
2 (20m 54s):
S I F I felt like I was going crazy. I felt last night with this issue, I thought I'll never be free from this.
1 (21m 4s):
You're like Plagued with the P.
2 (21m 7s):
And you know, the street that we live on is called fulling mill and a fulling mill is refers to a place where in the process of creating Textiles, they did something with the sh the wool and the S and it had to be cleaned with urine
1 (21m 29s):
Shuts your mouth this way.
2 (21m 32s):
Yes. Ma'am yes. Ma'am this entire area. A little clock that I live
1 (21m 37s):
On
2 (21m 39s):
Was, is named for what it was. And this one, this town was founded in the 17 hundreds, which was the place down by the water where they cleaned, wash the wool with urine, for whatever reason. Yeah. I mean, could it be that we are just dealing with 300 years Of
1 (21m 60s):
P well,
2 (22m 1s):
Hasn't seen, right.
1 (22m 2s):
I know I it's one of your kids pig and the baskets.
2 (22m 6s):
I mean, well, in this particular basket, it was around the outside of it.
1 (22m 11s):
No. So Sue Wallace picked up the leg. We put, what was her
2 (22m 17s):
Around it? Not just like in one spot,
1 (22m 20s):
It doesn't make any sense. So we have no answers still.
2 (22m 24s):
I have no answers. I threw away the laundry basket and it doesn't smell like pee down there any more. But I just, I just realized like, okay, well, this is where it's about my obsession and my intolerance, right? When we lived in New York, I was so traumatized by the rats and the mice. And I just became so deeply intolerant. And that's how it works with fears, as you know, oh,
1 (22m 49s):
The
2 (22m 50s):
More you back away from it, the worse it is. Right.
1 (22m 53s):
And also it's, you're like super, what was it? It was, it's not entirely, it's not intolerant. It's also unreasonable. We become totally on it is an intolerant, but it's like, we become unreasonable about our willingness not to let go of the thing. Like, I, I get it. I've been there when I am. I've been there. But like, what I'm really anointed is is that you're not telling me the answer to what happened. We don't know
2 (23m 20s):
Girl. I do not know. I don't know.
1 (23m 24s):
No.
2 (23m 25s):
No.
1 (23m 26s):
Okay. So it hasn't flooded. You've never had, so we just don't know how and no other, where there any other laundry baskets in the basement that have this problem?
2 (23m 36s):
No. Okay. Here's what all allow for allow for This possible, even though the dog never pees inside the house, to my knowledge, you know, I mean, he's two years old now. He really, to my knowledge, hasn't done it in at least a year. Maybe at some point, one of this basket was in my daughter's room. He sometimes sleeps in there, but, but even then I felt like I would have smelled it when I walked in the room,
1 (24m 3s):
I feel like he would have done it. Why around the basket, this doesn't make any sense.
2 (24m 7s):
It makes no sense. It makes no sense. I'm choosing to think about it. Like, yeah, there's, there's, there's the logistical practical thing of like, figuring out what happened and try not to let it happen again. But then there's the other, perhaps more important thing, which is, well, it's the, if you're going to pick this to be your thing, you know, you're always going to be vexed by it. That's what I'm, that's what I, it just didn't occur to me really until last night. Like, I'm, there's a part of this that I am doing to myself. Yes. It's P whatever, like we clean it and we move on. Right.
1 (24m 42s):
So, you know, it is, it is sort of, to me what the P represents in terms of, for me, it's a very, I have a dog that is a very, very bad dog. And she, what is it? What does it mean? If I have a very bad dog? What does it mean that if my dog is not civilized and behaved or doesn't give a shit about following rules, or it means that I have done something wrong and I cannot get clean. Like, it just it's, it cannot, I cannot get clean. Like that is the feeling is I can not, I can never do it. Right. I can never have a perfect dog.
1 (25m 23s):
And why, why other people seem to, I can't get my dog to be perfect. And it is, it becomes an obsession obsession. So like, my dog got put in timeout, you know, a daycare and like, I could not get over it. I was like, why? I was like, wait, what does this mean? Like I had a whole thing and she has not been back to daycare sentence because I'm like, I cannot risk her going. And then, then she got kennel cough, which is the real reason. And it's expensive as hell. But underneath there is this thing of like, I do not want to deal with my dog getting a bad report every time that she did something rotten and went to time out, time out, which is like five minutes alone with a person it's not even a thing, but like, it is a thing to me.
1 (26m 6s):
So I get it. And I also do think that it's, I have to I'm of two minds, right? Cause like I'm of the mystery, true crime mind, like I'm trying to figure out. And the, the, and the other mind is the psychological realism. Mine. That's like, no, this is about you and your need to want to be perfect, you know, and want to have a perfect basement where you can have the perfect pharmaceutical commercial.
2 (26m 31s):
Yes. And you know what also just drives me nuts about myself is that every time I have this moment, I have a satisfying moment like that. I can't really load into like, and so this is how it's always going to be now. I really
1 (26m 49s):
Believe
2 (26m 50s):
This is how it's supposed to be. And it's like, and I finally figured out how to do it as if any happy moment isn't just fleeting or, you know, lasts for however long it lasts. Yeah.
1 (27m 0s):
Right. And we're told that they, you know, like they do and that, you know, it's just like every, any time I cut my hair, I'm looking at my neck. It's always turns into Dora the Explorer hair. I cannot stop my hair for being Dora the Explorer. And it's just because it's thick. So she can, she razors it's down. She does all the things. But as soon as it starts to grow, it is Dora the Explorer hair. And I am just going to have to embrace the door or the hair or
2 (27m 32s):
Jumps, or
1 (27m 33s):
Just shaved my head.
2 (27m 35s):
And also, I mean, take heart because most people who are going through menopause start really losing their hair. So you're still growing loud and proud.
1 (27m 45s):
It's like a triangle head. I just said, yeah,
2 (27m 48s):
I know. I get the same thing. It's just
1 (27m 50s):
Thick. And like, what is happening? Oh yeah. Anyway,
2 (27m 54s):
How much would she charge if you just asked every couple of weeks to go back in just for a quick ride?
1 (27m 57s):
Sure. I could do that. I could do that. And then, but then, then I have to confront my fear of breaking the salon chair. Remember that whole fear. I have all these fears,
2 (28m 6s):
But you've sat in that chair and it didn't break. So
1 (28m 9s):
No, no, it's going to be fine.
2 (28m 10s):
I think you're good.
1 (28m 11s):
I'm going to be good. I'm going to be okay. So that's okay. So, but the other thing I have to say is like speaking of urine is I had a friend in high school who's and this is like pretty sad, but her dad was a drunk and every night he would drink and every night he would pee in the hamper because he would think it was the toilet. So he would walk to the, so this reminded me of that, of like, he was so wasted in the night, in the dark and he would get up in a drunken stupor every night. And then I was like, well, why don't you start? Like, I just, now I'm like, why didn't they move the hamper? Or first of all, why they get his ass out of, to rehab. But like, that's the Real underlying question, but like, why not move the hamper and like put a bowl or something.
2 (28m 58s):
That's an interesting that, that I don't know how that family responded to it. But like, but that way of thinking about it too, like, that's exactly what I would be thinking. Well, I just have to move the hamper.
1 (29m 11s):
That's also enable whole fucking bright.
2 (29m 13s):
Right, right. That is a sad story.
1 (29m 17s):
It happens a lot where people pee in corners and things. And I had died of a brain aneurysm later, but I had a friend who got so wasted. They literally shit in someone's houseplant. And didn't
2 (29m 35s):
Inside the house.
1 (29m 36s):
Yes. He tells, he tells a story about it and he, yeah, he shit in his, he was drunk and shit in, or maybe it was high. He was on drugs, something was wrong. And he found out later cause his friend I think told him,
2 (29m 53s):
Yeah. Right. It's like, Hey buddy, we gotta have a talk. I mean, I'm willing to put up with a lot, but it's shitting in my plants, shipment my ficus. That's where I got to draw the line.
1 (30m 6s):
All the
2 (30m 6s):
Things that it is likely. And by the way, I mean, I ever since writing the essay, like I can't pay any more attention to this Johnny Depp thing and whatever it does come my way. It's just sounds like it's like a bunch of fecal matter. And
1 (30m 21s):
Okay. So I had
2 (30m 22s):
None
1 (30m 23s):
After I read your essay, I was like, okay, let me just check it out. And I was at my friend Jesus house and she was like, you've got to listen. She had like it T vote or something. And she's like, I saved this for you to listen to, because I literally could not understand what he was saying. And I said what? She said, no, it is the most at the same time. And I, and I agree, monotonous mixed with mumble dialogue mix with circular logic, mixed with an effect mixed with pretend and mixed with benzodiazepines. I think he's on to keep him sober and like quote sober.
1 (31m 4s):
I literally thought, oh, this is a technique he's using to like lawless all into believing, whatever. He, it's so hard to track that the brain goes, just let it go. Like don't even
2 (31m 20s):
Right. Right. And he gets that privilege because, or he has traditionally because of his looks and his status. Yeah. Oh my God. I speak about looks and status. We predicted it. Brittany Spears is back on her bullshit posting nude selfies. I'm the girl is sick. The woman is sick. And I'm not saying she needs to have whatever, some draconian like guardianship, but she's, but now we know why, because she won't take her GED medicine because people like to feel manic. Right.
1 (31m 51s):
And also it's going
2 (31m 52s):
To end badly. It's going to end badly
1 (31m 53s):
And badly. And also the thing I, our friend on social media, Jimmy McDermott posted. Cause I posted like, you know, I want to write a pilot about this trial. And I said, but I'm going to like totally redo the costuming and the SATs. And then Jimmy mid-term had said, yeah, Johnny tap literally looks like he's the tour bus driver of the Al Capone tour in Chicago. Like he
2 (32m 16s):
Got, he
1 (32m 17s):
Does like
2 (32m 18s):
Three
1 (32m 18s):
Piece what's happening. So anyway, regardless of that, I just want to say like, don't the mumbling and the that's all for me. And this sort of smiling is so indicative of a manipulative, like person that has gotten away with so much shit. I don't care what you think of him in her. I mean, I, of course I care, but like my, my thing is always from the psychological point of view of what is coming across and what is the speaker trying to do either consciously or unconsciously. And my thing is he is trying to lull us into believing that everything's, he's saying, it's just, it's just so neither here nor there it's just so it's and I'm like, okay.
1 (33m 3s):
And she says, she says, dad, who, by the way, is recovering from a stroke, said, why won't this guy just shut the fuck up? What is he saying? And I said, exactly, exactly. Well, okay, well,
2 (33m 18s):
But, but silver lining there Jesus' dad was reading better. He's getting out amazing.
1 (33m 23s):
I just shut up and I was like, exactly,
2 (33m 26s):
Exactly, exactly. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina
Intro: Leak It All, the gumbo of bad decisions.
Let Me Run This By You: Overcoming insecurities, chasing hope, staying curious, and Marilyn Monroe.
Interview: A Maze by Rob Handel, Just Theatre, New College of Florida, Asolo Repertory Theatre, SF State, playwriting MFAs, Attempts on Her Life by Martin Crimp, Soho Rep, North Oakland, The Civilians, Yale, UCSD, Lincoln Center Directors Lab, underground poker games, the NYC Tombs, Playwrights Foundation, Annie Baker, Sam Hunter, Zakiyyah Alexander, Soho Rep Writer Director Lab, Adam Bock, Shotgun Players, Anne Washburn, The Bacchae, Eureka Day, left wing anti-vaxxers, Ben Brantley, writing during the pandemic, a pilot about a tech start up run by altruistic vampires, Mike Schur, What We Do In The Shadows, Aurora Theatre Company.
Intro: It's a bad idea not to pay your student loans, The Odd Couple, Severance, chicken nugget bowls,
Let Me Run This By You: Google is bullying Gina. What's your email archive strategy? We are all mostly old because the window of youth is shockingly short. Some of your dreams are NOT out of reach.
Interview: We talk to T.J. Harris about coming to acting later in life, having a background in business, having a close-knit cohort, Title IX investigations, being the victim of racial profiling while at school, the paradox of slightly shy kids being told they were shy so often that they become even more withdrawn, Our Lady of Kibeho, Neighborhood 3: Requisition of Doom, Sean Parris, Chris Anthony.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
3 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.
4 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
4 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
1 (34s):
Anyway, so I had to like get him out of the house and like men are slow and I just, it's just, it's a really no win situation. So anyway. Hello. Hello Busy. I've been busy. We've all been busy.
2 (51s):
We have been doing the damn thing. Haven't we?
1 (55s):
Yeah.
2 (56s):
Yeah. I have spent the last, what feels like a week. Yeah. I think it's been a week simply reviewing every single dollar 20, 21, like literally and putting it in a spreadsheet, literally like can donuts, can you
1 (1m 18s):
Keep it because you can write off a lot
2 (1m 20s):
Of new machine. Yeah. That's yeah. That's, that's the point of it is to find everything that, that can be written off, but it's, you know, and I'm hunched and my back and my eyes strain, and it's just like, oh my God, Calgon, take me away.
1 (1m 38s):
Yeah. I mean, I think that taxes are one of those things where if you do them right, and legally it's a lot of work, right? It's like,
2 (1m 47s):
You want to skim and
1 (1m 48s):
Be shady, which I don't recommend, because guess what? The IRS is only job is to get your money. Like, that's their only job. They don't have any other purpose on the planet. So like, if you think that's not their job, you're wrong. But anyway, so if you do it right, like you are, it's a lot of freaking work and it also is painstaking.
2 (2m 12s):
And I, and, and it's painstaking. And I think, you know, to, to, to find a silver lining in it, like, I'm so glad I don't have a full-time job because this is the kind of thing that literally, I don't know how people, when it's, when everybody works, how they do it it's
1 (2m 35s):
Well, you can't. I mean, I think it's, that's why people end up in trouble. Like, that's why people end up trying to skin his scam or not doing them and being like, you know what, I'm going to pass on all this. I'm just going to hope for them. And like, that's what I did with my student loans, because I didn't want to, and that's not even as hard as taxes, but I just like, couldn't cope with the ins and outs of doing the work to defer or like make deals, or like get my payments lower. And thus, I had a sheriff show up at my apartment. Like that is where you're headed. You don't know that story. Oh, all right. So I thought, oh, it'd be really cool to not pay my student loans.
1 (3m 15s):
I mean, I didn't really have the money, but I also didn't realize that my student loans were private student loans. Oh boy. So when they're private, you're in big trouble, because guess what? It's a bank that wants their money. It's not the government who has a million other things to do. Right. So the bank is like, no, we want our money. And I did that. Know that the bank hires the Sheriff's department to serve papers when you are being sued for your private loans. So one day I am N in Rogers park at my thinking, you know, nothing of it. Like I, I owed 50 grand and I to like four different banks. Right. It's always, and they sell them to other people and it's a big scam.
1 (3m 56s):
Right. Okay. Fine. But I'm like going about my business thinking, but feeling bad, but like, feeling like, ah, fuck it. Like, who cares? Well, they care. Wait,
2 (4m 7s):
How long were you not paying them
1 (4m 9s):
For a couple of years? Maybe I just said, forget it in 15, 20, 15. I said, no more. And then in 27, 20 17, I'm literally, I kept getting calls. They started calling miles and I was just the guy just pay no attention. Miles, like pay no attention. And of course he's like so trusting. He was like, okay, I'll pay no attention. I'll compartmentalize. And okay. So one day there's a, our buzzer goes off and I'm like, hello. Cause no one ever. He's like, this is the Sheriff's department. Are you Jennifer Bosworth? And I was like, and then I realized, I really quickly, your mind goes, oh, what have I done wrong?
1 (4m 50s):
Right. And it focuses it on the thing. Cause you know what you've done right. Or what I've done wrong. And I'm like, oh, my here is the PA the Piper or the pied Piper or whoever is coming to collect chickens, home to roost all the things. And I was like, and I just said, I have a lawyer go away. And he goes, no, we just, we just want to give you these papers. Like we have to give you these papers. I'm like, no, I have a lawyer go away. Which is the wrong thing to do.
2 (5m 19s):
What also, what was your logic there? I have a lawyer. Okay.
1 (5m 23s):
There was no logic. I would say it was the opposite of logic is what's going on. So I see that they go away because, and so they're paid by the bank. So they just hire the Sheriff's department to serve people. I did not know that it's like, they, they you're there for hire basically the Sheriff's department. So they go and they serve people and they could not serve me. But then what it did was it was really actually a great kick in the pants because I was like, oh, I have a court date now. So no. So what I did was I said, okay, let me find it. So then I was like, I need a lawyer. So, and then on my 43rd birthday or 42nd, 42nd birthday.
1 (6m 10s):
Yeah. 42nd birthday. I went to the lawyer. I found this lawyer fucking brilliant. I can't remember her name right now. She was like legally blonde. She had these long pink nails and her only job was to get people off student loans and, and either file bankruptcy or figure out a way to talk. The loan people doubt. She was a bad-ass and I went there and I was like crying. And I was like, look. And she was like, oh, $50,000. That's nothing. And I was like, oh, she's like, I got people that I was, you know, 600,000 in medical school loans,
2 (6m 43s):
Medical school, that's
1 (6m 45s):
All. But also she goes, yeah, the private loans they get ya, you know? So, so she, she, okay. So she said, I said, well, what do I do? I can't remember her name. She was so awesome. And I, and she's like, well, do you have the money? I'm like, well, look, I have this inheritance. She's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Then we can't declare bankruptcy because they'll go after your inheritance. I was like, oh, hell to the, no. So she's like, all right, well, we'll try to get him down. So she reduced $50,000 to $25,000 for a fee of $3,000 and went to court and was like, you know, so she talked them down. She's like, you're getting nothing. If you don't take this 25,000, she's like, can you get me 25,000?
1 (7m 27s):
I'm like, sure. So I, then it happened to be, we were selling the house around that time. Anyway, I got the money and then my life has, but my credit was literally if a here's what people don't understand. It's like, it may be stupid, but the credit matters. But if you want to live somewhere,
2 (7m 46s):
Right? Like if you want to be on the grid,
1 (7m 49s):
If you want to like have a house that is, if you ever want to apply for apartment, if you ever want to it matters. I know it shouldn't. I always tell my students like, yeah, all this shit shouldn't matter, but it does everyone. It does. I hate the fact that it does, but let's be honest about the truth here. Let's just get real. So my, my credit now, what my credit was so low, I can't remember what it was. And I was like, oh, that's not so bad. And my friend was like, that's the worst credit you're going to have? And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I didn't understand the scale. Right? Like I was like, oh, five 40 isn't bad. Or five, some days she was like, that's like the worst. So now my credit is seven 80.
1 (8m 30s):
Oh no, no. I got it. All of it is seven 50 because I paid it off. And like, I don't, we don't have any debt. Thank God credit card wise. Oh, because vials is, if, if it were up to me, I probably have debt up to my eyeballs, unfortunately. But my partner is like, oh no, no, no. He's really good with that. Thank God. Oh boy. Cause I have some problems because my parents never taught me shit. You know? So no, all this to say, how did this come up?
2 (8m 58s):
Because we were talking about,
1 (8m 60s):
Sorry.
2 (9m 1s):
Okay. But so many things about your story. First of all, it was $50,000. Just the amount you owed from the time that you stopped paying, or are you saying it has a total of $50,000?
1 (9m 15s):
No, I had more than that. So I had had 80 and I had paid 30 of it off because I went to school like in oh eight. I graduated. So it's not like a long time. So I had 50, 80,000 total. I had paid 30 somehow some way and all those years around there. And then I had 50 left. Yeah. And I was used to pay the 50, but then I
2 (9m 38s):
Just, just asking, but like, could anybody go to a lawyer and say, reduce my,
1 (9m 45s):
Yeah. That's their whole, because here's what the, yes, this is what they don't tell you is that
2 (9m 50s):
I feel like such an asshole. Right?
1 (9m 54s):
Doris is literally overdosing on melatonin. Hold on. Okay.
2 (9m 58s):
Oh my God. I can't believe I could have. I just pay. All of my students will never
1 (10m 6s):
Happen again. Come
2 (10m 7s):
Here, Come here. I just can't believe I've paid every penny of my student loans. What is wrong with me? I'm just the worst partner ever. Sorry. No, you're not. You're not the worst person. She meets me. And I eat
1 (10m 31s):
That
2 (10m 32s):
Thing away from her and I gave her all kinds of,
1 (10m 35s):
Okay. So yeah. You don't feel like an asshole because here's the thing. They never tell you this, that you can everything's negotiable in this country. Okay. Every single thing is negotiable. Everything's a business deal. Everything can be reduced. Why? Because there's no set rate for anything that's capitalism. So you, you, you can charge whatever you want. And then it's negotiable. So what she told me was these companies, these banks, they're banks, they're not companies. I mean, they're banks. These banks know that they will get nothing. If someone declares bankruptcy. Okay. So they don't know that I had this inheritance, this, you know, but they, they know that most people say F you I'm part of capitalism is bankruptcy.
1 (11m 22s):
I'm declaring bankruptcy. You get $0. So they want anything. They'll take pennies on the goddamn dollar. So she's like, oh no. And it's a fine line. And that's why you need a lawyer to go to court and say, my client has nothing. So if you want anything, she'd lucked into 25 grand. She can, she can scrape by twenty-five grand. You want that? Or you want Jack shit. And then they'll say, give me the 25 grand.
2 (11m 45s):
Right? Right. Well, I, I, it doesn't matter. Now I had done this, you know, 10 years ago. I mean, because the thing is, of course, like you take, you borrow $50,000 and you pay 300, basically.
1 (11m 58s):
It's ridiculous. Especially with private loans. Ridiculous.
2 (12m 3s):
That's what, and that's what I had. I had a lot of problems, but the other thing that's so striking about your stories, the moment when you start, when you said you had this moment in 2015, where you said, fuck it. I just, that gave me such a thrill. Like if you would, just because the reason I couldn't do that is I would think about it every second of the day.
1 (12m 25s):
I would have. Yeah. Because my mom was my co-signer, but that lady was dead. So I was like, what are they going to do? Cause she was really, I was more afraid of my mother than the federal and then the, then the bank and the government. So the private loans and the government. So I, if she was alive, you bet your ass. I would have been paying those motherfuckers off
2 (12m 45s):
Of my loans for social work school had to have a co-signer of my father-in-law. And for some reason that I never did get to the bottom of Wells Fargo. If I was one day late for a payment, they wouldn't even call me or contact me in any way. They just immediately, it was all on him. Yes. And he would of course call me the second that they called him. And it was so embarrassing every time I'd be like, I mean, it happened like, I want to say it happened five or six
1 (13m 19s):
Times. That is so easy to do.
2 (13m 22s):
It's silly. But
1 (13m 24s):
It's
2 (13m 24s):
Also like, this is the mafia. Like you're you're one day late in your payment and you don't say, Hey, could you pay me? You just go, do you just threaten somebody to break?
1 (13m 33s):
Yeah, it's a psychological tactic. It's like some real Scientology bullshit.
2 (13m 38s):
It was horrible. Horrible, horrible. So if you have a few, can't pay your student loans. If you're listening to this and you cannot pay your student loans, call a lawyer,
1 (13m 52s):
Let me run this by you.
2 (13m 58s):
And then I'm also doing another, another way in which I'm an obsessive rural follower is that Google sent me a message saying, I have exceeded my storage limit by 380%. And if that, if I listen, anybody could, anybody can bully me. I am so easily bullied. It said, if you don't, if you don't pay more for storage or get rid of some of what you have, you will no longer be able to send or receive emails. So I spent five hours yesterday going through
1 (14m 34s):
A bad idea in some it's
2 (14m 36s):
Not about idea. Well, I've got it down. Sorry. I was, I was out, I was using 385%. I'm down to 340% after deleting probably 10,000 emails
1 (14m 49s):
With like, is it true? What they're saying?
2 (14m 52s):
I don't know. All I know is that when I log onto my email and I see a big red line across the top,
1 (14m 60s):
I can't,
2 (15m 1s):
I can't take it. I can't take the red line, but upside, it has been a walk down memory lane, you know, because things, I mean, people I'm having email exchanges with, it seems sort of intimate. And I'm like, I have no idea who that person is. Or like reading email. I looked for the oldest email I have from you, which on this, on this, my Gmail is from 2008. And just, you know, whatever, like you were talking about your job. And I was talking about my job and I found the, the engagement announcement. Yeah.
1 (15m 40s):
That's
2 (15m 40s):
Kind of fun too. And, and also I realized I had thousands of emails that I just simply don't need. Like I keep every email. Do you keep all of your emails?
1 (15m 51s):
No. So I I'm so weird. I never have more than zero unread in my inbox.
2 (15m 59s):
Well, wait, did I just mean you archives of metal?
1 (16m 3s):
No, I just delete them. Not all the good one. No, no, no, no. I, I don't, I I'm terrible that I don't know how to do shit, so I don't put them in folders or anything like that or archive.
2 (16m 18s):
And then you have
1 (16m 19s):
Zero
2 (16m 20s):
Emails.
1 (16m 21s):
Yeah. It's because I have no life maybe. And I just,
2 (16m 25s):
The chairman for you have a full life and now you don't have any of your emails back from you. Don't
1 (16m 30s):
You know, I have that.
2 (16m 32s):
Well, how do you have them?
1 (16m 34s):
I erased the ones as they come in that are know that I don't know longer that have attachments and no longer need.
2 (16m 41s):
Okay.
1 (16m 42s):
So I manage my box. So here's the thing I will run out of storage. It's just that I don't think I get a lot of emails. I don't, I actually don't like, I'm always saying, I want more emails. I'm like the only person that wants them. I'm so like, I love paperwork and I love emails. And so I don't know. I'm always like no one ever emails me. It's so weird. But anyway, the pain is,
2 (17m 5s):
It's not possible that no one ever emails. You Did. The thing that I did, which is I accidentally deleted all my emails from
1 (17m 15s):
No, I remember that. That was hilarious. And now,
2 (17m 19s):
For example,
1 (17m 20s):
So right now I have zero emails, unread, unread,
2 (17m 26s):
Unread, you keep everything in your inbox.
1 (17m 29s):
Yeah. You know me, my desktop. How
2 (17m 33s):
Many emails are in your inbox? Just
1 (17m 38s):
30,000. I mean read 30,035.
2 (17m 44s):
Okay. Well what do you do when you have to find?
1 (17m 50s):
Well, that's why I can't never find my, Why you don't say why it happened. You have ISO every time you send me, it's bad. But miles miles was like, cause now miles is really into email because of his job for the last six months, his new job. And he's like, but you have no full zero four.
2 (18m 8s):
No, but zero folders. My shoulder, my shoulders are getting so tough.
1 (18m 16s):
So, Okay. So anyway, it beans, like I'm not saying I have a good system. Like I don't have a good system. I have no system. But what it is is I'm just proud. I don't have like, I'm really judgy about people that have a lot of unread emails. So like literally if I walk by and coworking and I see someone's inbox has like 12,000 unread, I go, oh God, I go, nothing, nothing, nothing little do they know? I have not one fucking folders. So I can't pay,
2 (18m 47s):
I need to start in a production of the odd couple because I am.
1 (18m 54s):
I know I look at your, I don't even know how you make. I look at our joint email. I don't know what these folders mean. I don't know what there's like sub folders to me. I'm like,
2 (19m 6s):
Now that you're, now that we're discussing this, I'm realizing another fake fakery folders actually don't have any meaning because actually, well, because actually, if you wanted to find an email,
1 (19m 22s):
This is like from
2 (19m 23s):
Right. If you want to find an email from target, you can just Google. I mean, you can just search.
1 (19m 29s):
Yes. But the problem is if you have 4,000, let me run this by you emails. So that is my, so I need you to set it up. I thought I had set it up for, for my, let me run this links. No. So what I did was set up a ma a new G Gmail account
2 (19m 47s):
And it's not
1 (19m 48s):
Good. It's not fair. So the bottom line is, I don't think my system is great, but what I think is I like I Le well, I'm weird in that. I like having no unread emails, but at the same time, I don't feel like people are emailing me enough.
2 (20m 3s):
We did a freaky Friday. You and me and you were thrust into my life. And I was thrusted. I think that I would immediately feel relieved because I feel like you don't necessarily carry around you. I mean, you have a lot of stuff that you have to carry around, but you don't necessarily carry around this need to do everything. Perfect.
1 (20m 27s):
Oh, no. And I think that comes, I swear to God. A lot of it is with kids, because if you fuck up with yourself, okay, so you're a fuck up. But if you are a parent of three children and you don't, you fuck up, you end up like a lot of people we know, which is, and the kids ended up like, like we, us and people, we know we don't like, so that is, I feel like if I was dropped in. So, so I feel like if I was dropped into your life, I would like it. Cause you have like all this space Around and everything.
2 (21m 0s):
And my kids would love it because you're fun. And that's, that's like, that's like the dynamic, that's the thing in our house. It's like, mom's no fun. Mom is doing, she's got the rules. She's
1 (21m 12s):
No, no, I'd be like, all right, let's do, let's eat fried food. This would be my thing. I'd be like, Eat fried food. And I can't eat that anymore. But if I dropped into your life, I could write, I could eat that. And I would say, okay, this is what I used to eat before my hurt. Like what completely I would have. I was thinking about the other day, something called a chicken nugget bowls. Okay. Which was, I would a
2 (21m 37s):
Bowl of chicken nuggets
1 (21m 39s):
Mixed with, okay. So I'd go to trader Joe's and get the chicken nuggets and then bake those. And then their, their potatoes, fries, fries, and th and literally dump a bunch of that in a bowl, put some ketchup and mix it all up and just have like a chicken nugget fry. But that's not good for you, by the way.
2 (22m 2s):
Why was it appealing to put it in a bowl? Instead of
1 (22m 5s):
I liked the combo of the two together and like the ketchup was the glue that held it all together. And I loved that, but the problem was I gained a lot of weight and then my heart went down. You can't really
2 (22m 18s):
Mean the thing
1 (22m 20s):
About adulthood, the shit you really like can not be maintained if you want to live.
2 (22m 25s):
I mean, it's such a bummer. I recently realized that youth really only lasts for 25 years. So, so, so everybody is mostly old, right? Like everybody's friends, the majority of their life that didn't occur to me for some reason, I think because we're so youth obsessed in this culture, I had this way of fit, not logically, but like I had this way of thinking about it. Like it's this long epoch of life, but really
1 (22m 59s):
You're old for a very long time. And then you die.
2 (23m 2s):
And then you're also very young for a period of time. So the, the period of time where you're autonomous and
1 (23m 14s):
We also missed it.
2 (23m 16s):
And then we were just walking around, feeling horrible about ourselves.
1 (23m 19s):
That is such a waste. Right? The other thing I was going to tell you, I have a really good story to tell you about someone we know that I can share, because it's a good story. This is a story about why it's good. That life can be good. Okay. I'm teaching at DePaul, our Alma mater, as you know, if you listen to the show, okay. I teach fourth year BFA actors on zoom, which I wasn't supposed to, but I got special and that's a whole nother Oprah and itself. But so I have students and one of my things is we write pitch letters. I help them. Cause that's my jam. I love doing that. Even if it's a pitch letter for them, for a tour to a rep, to a producer, whatever we write these like bio pitch letters.
1 (24m 3s):
Okay, fine. So I had this student, I still have the student and he's a wonderful youngster. And he's like talking his dream. This is so crazy. His dream is to be in the Mar somehow in the Marvel universe. Okay. Like he wants his dream is to be in a movie, a Marvel movie. But of course he wants a foot in the door, anything. And he goes, and I said, okay, well, like why we're developing his pitch letter with the class. Everyone takes turns, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, I would really like the career of this guy that I, that I've heard about named Sean Gunn. I'm like, wait,
2 (24m 37s):
Oh my God.
1 (24m 39s):
He said, he said, I know he went to the theater school. And like, I know, and I'm thinking to myself, cause you know, I obviously we've interviewed Sean gone listened to his interview and obviously, and we've done it twice, right? No, didn't we do two, two parts. I wasn't that the second one. But yeah. And obviously we know him and obviously he's not like my best friend, but I, and I was like thinking to myself and he's like, I just would really love to pitch him. And I was like, oh my God. So we created a dope letter to Sean Gunn. And I wrote to Sean and said, Hey, my students are doing this thing. He would love to jump on a zoom and they're going to have a zoom. So he's going to meet his hero.
2 (25m 20s):
That's I
1 (25m 21s):
Know I couldn't have been happier. I was like, I actually am doing something that makes a difference. So I'm facilitating the zoom between Alex and Sean and Sean was gracious enough to do it. And, and it turns out that he's filming. I think in Atlanta, you know, probably some marble thing and, and he gets off this week. And so it's, he has some time and Alex is like lipping out. Out's 21, right. This kid, he's like a great kid. He did stop motion classes. Like he, like, he knows how to do that as an actor, like the guy is in his letter, I really helped him with his letter. And, and Sean said, this, your student's letter is so sweet. Like I love it. So anyway, the point is, I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is also to say that another reason the podcast is good.
1 (26m 8s):
Right. Because you just don't know how you're going to like pass it along. And FYI in two months, my students are going to be our colleagues. Right. Cause they're graduating. So you don't know, like, I don't know what they'll need for me or what I need from them.
2 (26m 22s):
I always say, you're the person who identified from the very beginning that this podcast was going to be healing to people. And not only are you doing it in this way, but you're also doing it in a way that you're through your work as a teacher correcting the thing that almost everybody who comes on says, I, yeah, I got all this education. But then when I graduated and now I do anything, like you're giving them at least,
1 (26m 47s):
And I do one-on-ones with them. And because I'm like, look, yes, exactly what happens to us and happened to everyone that we've talked to almost missed, except for like three people. And we've talked to a lot of people happened to is happening again, because I think there's obviously a bigger question of the reckoning of how do we change at a theater stage, acting conservatory to become more friendly towards launching these students in a way where they actually can get work and live and not worry and not worry as much that everything is for not. And what am I doing?
1 (27m 26s):
And I didn't get picked or chosen and how to write a pitch letter. Like FYI, all the people that I'm helping write pitch letters, they're all getting their meetings with people. It just, anyway, you were saying like, you can access.
2 (27m 41s):
Yeah. People it's, I'm not suggesting that anybody you want to talk to, you can just hit them up and talk to them. But I am just sort of speaking to this barrier that I have always had myself this mental barrier of like, well, I could never talk to so-and-so it's this thing about like, I could never follow my dream. You know, I recently realized that I actually was afraid to say inside of my own head, what a dream, what my dream was like. Right. Like I, I just made 99% of life completely out of reach for me. And then just try and then just try to figure out what this 1% that I could.
1 (28m 24s):
Yeah. I mean, that's what trauma does to you. That's what it does. It says you are, you can't even, it's not safe to even dream in your own fantasy. So most what I'm finding is as the more I talk to people in the more I sort of do research for like my own writing on trauma, on like serial killers, really. But like that the trauma is so crystallized at a young age, right. That there, it cuts off all access to hope. That's the effect of trauma. There is no hope. So you operate in this one, teeny little place of, I'm not going to hope, but I'm still going to live. Cause I'm not going to die. So there's, it's like, it's like, yeah, yeah.
1 (29m 6s):
There's no hope trauma cuts off the access to pipeline, to hope and to not just joy, but hope.
2 (29m 13s):
Yeah. And, and if it's true, like we were saying that youth is this short window, the good on the good side is there is hope in your older years that you can evolve to be the person that
1 (29m 28s):
You really can't. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of, it's not easy. And it's like really bizarre how you get there. But if you keep putting in the work and get support, it is possible. Even at 40, like that's the other thing that I am so clear on because I launched this consulting business so crazy. Like I thought I was going to get a nine to five and like, so my consulting business has taken off. Right. Because you've just fantastic. And people are like, how are you having so many clients? This is the reason I have no imposter syndrome. When it comes to this particular skill, like I'm scared as shit to be an actor. I'm scared as shit to write, to be a writer.
1 (30m 9s):
I'm still doing it, but I'm scared in that way, a screenwriter, a television writer, that kind of thing. But if you ask me to sit down with somebody and help them to pitch themselves and to crystallize their vision of what their thing is, whatever their thing is, I don't care what it is. I have zero imposter syndrome. I know you don't have to hire me. I don't get that's, you know, but I know that I am good at that beyond a shadow of a doubt because things have all come together to show me that. So my own work emotionally, I'm working with you on this podcast and in the entertainment business and my past life and entertainment and getting a master's in counseling, psych literally has prepared me to do this thing.
1 (30m 57s):
And I have no like, fear that if I'm talking to somebody about it, that they're going to think I'm full of shit, because it's actually the truth of what it's undeniable, it's undeniable, you eat it. And it's because I put in the work. And also I just it's one of the side effects of being a traumatized and neglected child is, is, and then doing the work to work through that is noticing that in other people and where their trauma points are. So now, like I'm literally about to start pitching my services to the district attorney's office for, for trials, for people to do closing lawyers that are scared to do closing arguments in a theatrical way.
1 (31m 42s):
Isn't that crazy? I was watching the John Wayne Gacy trial and I was like, oh, this guy has an amazing closing in his, his closing argument. The da was so brilliant. And it's known as like, he did this beautiful theatrical, but also tasteful thing. Cause sometimes it can be like a carnival, but like, and so I was like, oh, how do I help people do that? Cause that's, you know, and that's always tricky in the legal system, but I've also worked in the legal system. So I know a little bit, so anyway, that's my new, I'm like, yeah, these, some of these lawyers
2 (32m 14s):
How I
1 (32m 15s):
Have like stage fright, so litigators even, and they need help. So anyway, we shall see where that goes, but I don't have, I don't have, I'm not afraid that doesn't, I don't have imposter syndrome about that.
2 (32m 28s):
Yeah. Oh, thank God. We should all have at least one thing that we don't feel like we're an imposter about
1 (32m 34s):
One thing. I mean, for God's sake
7 (32m 43s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to TJ Harris, TJ terrorists introduced us to the idea of the artist preneur and his background in business is what helped him get to that exciting place. So please enjoy our conversation with TJ Harris.
2 (33m 2s):
Okay. All right. All right. Congratulations. TJ Harris, you survived
1 (33m 9s):
And you did it with some very like your energy just from the emails and from your life is like so positive, ridiculously positive, which I adore and which I think we need. And also you call yourself and you are an extra preneur,
8 (33m 29s):
Brilliant
1 (33m 30s):
Artists, preneur artists are brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant mixing of that. Like I love that. Did you come up with that or?
8 (33m 39s):
Yeah, well I think so. I probably stole it from somebody else, you know, as all artists do. Yeah. But I have, I have, I started in business before acting, so I came to lading to acting and filmmaking later in life. I'm 34 right now. And this I've been on this journey for about six years. So I, I kind of started out like in finance, I studied, I got a general studies degree in undergrad. I went to ball, state university in Indiana and I was a business administration major at first and I hated it.
8 (34m 19s):
Absolutely hated it, but I knew it was during the time, like right before the recession hit where it was like, just get a degree to get a job. So I was like, okay, I'll get a business degree. But I ended up switching over to general studies with a concentration in finance and sociology. And during that time, I, I, I've always felt like I've been kind of in this, this middle ground of not really knowing which route I wanted to go, because I didn't want to become a doctor and I didn't want to become a lawyer and I didn't want to go down this. Like somebody already created my path for me. So I just kind of started experimenting with things, graduated with my degree.
8 (35m 2s):
I got a job with a company that I'm currently still with. I worked part-time for him. Yeah. So I I'm, I'm a consultant. Part-time
1 (35m 12s):
Oh, you know, what's so funny. That is so rare that people keep their job after they graduate from a, from a fine arts, like from a conservatory that they, as a master's student. That is fantastic. And why did you keep it? Like, could you love that work? What makes you want to keep it?
8 (35m 30s):
No. So, I mean, they know, I don't really love it. So I actually quit. I quit prior to coming to going to TGS for grad school. So the plan was just to, just to be done with it because I really want to transition out of this industry, but it keeps pulling me back somehow. So I quit. And then I had an exit interview and someone that when I first started with the team, the PR one of my colleagues ended up being the manager of the team when I was leaving. So did an exit interview and I was like, Hey, if you all, like, I'll come back and help out while I'm in school, if you all need my help.
8 (36m 10s):
So six months later, they brought me back as a contractor. So I was working in like, ha basically all my bills were paid for through working this job. Part-time while being at TTS
1 (36m 24s):
Here, here's the thing. This is brilliant for a lot of reasons. But one of is which, you know, I teach BFA fours at the theater school and, and now they have a class and I don't know, you may have had something to do with it. I don't know that that's called actors as, as entrepreneurs. There's like a, but, but it reminds me of like, they're trying to, but you already did that on your own. So like you, I never, it is so brilliant that you were able to maintain that job so that you might guess is you were able to live, like you had some Dota live on. Right.
8 (37m 1s):
I didn't take out any additional student loans or anything like that. I did just the bare minimum. And I was living with a friend from undergrad. So my rent was like, mama shit. He charged me charged charge, like 600 or $700 to be in a really nice place. I didn't have to pay your abilities. And I was living with a friend that I knew, so, and it was, it was, so the reason I quit is because I asked to go remote from my previous manager, but they didn't really work that out for me. So I quit. And I was like, you know what? I don't, I don't need it. So they brought me back and it was like, it was a part-time remote. And I already knew that job. And I was, I was basically locked site.
8 (37m 43s):
So like in the middle of rehearsal on breaks, I was doing work. It's all project based work. I was doing work in between rehearsals in between classes. I would check in and check my emails and just kind of set my own hours. And so when, like when the pandemic hit, I was already in the work from home mindset.
2 (38m 2s):
I have to stop you for one second. Cause there's so many things that you're saying I want to respond to. One is it's always a good sign, a good omen when just organically, the conversation turns to exactly what she and I were talking about before we started talking to you, we were talking about student loans and what a albatross they are for so many people so that you did yourself, such a favor by not having to go down that path. But also what I, what we always find in the MFA's is they really already know how to hustle, right? Because they've been in the workforce, hustling is like the thing you have to be as an actor.
2 (38m 42s):
And I feel like that isn't writ large enough when you're in a training program. Like, listen, you can learn about intention till the cows come home. But what you really have to be able to do is figure out how to do a lot of things all the time. Right?
1 (39m 0s):
Go ahead, go ahead.
8 (39m 1s):
Oh, I was going to say, yeah, I was, I was already hustling. I was working the full-time job and then immediately go into rehearsal for four hours and then rehearsing on my own after rehearsal and then going back to a job the next day.
1 (39m 13s):
Well, so this leads me to a question that maybe you can answer, which is okay. So the MFA, what I'm noticing, cause I also am doing a little workshop with some of the MFA actors this year and a writing workshop because I'm really interested in writing
8 (39m 28s):
Ones or twos or threes. It's all weird. Now
1 (39m 32s):
I know it's all weird. No, these are twos. And, and anyway, what I'm learning is that maybe, and you can see what you think about this. Maybe we need to look at restructuring acting conservatories to be more like MFA programs versus BFAs. Because like yourself, we have found that the MFA actors who graduate seem way more prepared to live the life of an, of a, of an artist preneur versus the BFAs who are like, I don't know, they seem like daring, like losing it.
1 (40m 12s):
Right. So what is your thought on that MFA versus BFA for you?
8 (40m 17s):
So it's a catch 22 because obviously like I wanted my MFA experience and the BFS, you know, we worked together, we rehearsed together and we did shows together and we were offered a lot of the same classes, but also you want that distinction of like, I'm paying more to get this specialized area. And I don't know if when I was 18 or 22, if I would have been in that mindset, like, I don't know what I want it then. So I think it might've been, I think it's a lot to process studying, acting and the business of acting and to make it all make sense, unless you already have an area that you're interested in and you can like apply while you're in, in school from the business side.
2 (41m 16s):
Did, did your career in business set that intention for you to be an artist preneur from before you ever started the program before you were restarted your MFA?
8 (41m 28s):
For sure. Yeah. I, so I can, I consider getting my MBA and I was looking at like Northwestern or, and just to preface, I had really had no interesting getting my masters. DePaul was the only school that I applied for because I, I was considering moving to Chicago or LA and I just wanted the training because I didn't study theater and, and undergrad. So I just wanted the training and I was like, you know what? I grew up in I'm from Northwest Indiana. I'm from Gary. And I knew, I knew of DePaul and I really, I searched top 25 MFA programs.
8 (42m 10s):
And I was like, oh, this isn't in Chicago. And then I looked at like UC San Diego, because that would get me close to LA. So I applied to DePaul and going into it. I told myself that I was never going to get my masters unless it was for something that I absolutely loved, like absolutely without a doubt. So it was acting. And I knew that I knew that I didn't want to get out of school and be poor. Cause like I don't, I don't like the concept of being a struggling poor artists.
2 (42m 45s):
Well, thank you. Thank you for saying that, that I really appreciate that because that persists as a myth that we all need to be living in a Garret somewhere. But how did you audition when you never studied that? Or did you ever act?
8 (43m 2s):
I was, I was acting, I was doing like community theater and I had an agent. I was doing improv. I was doing commercials and auditioning for TV and film and doing a lot of auditioning for theater and taking like workshops and classes. I had a vocal coach, so I was training, but it was like a self study type of training. And I never really had the core foundation of what acting is all at once. So I don't honestly, it's just one of those things where I like I'm, I'm very much a spiritual. And like you put out, you get whipped back what you put out into the universe. And like this life, the life that I've been kind of creating for myself is very surreal because things just like on paper, things should not happen the way that they have, you know?
1 (43m 48s):
Oh, tell us about that. Okay. So what, first of all, my question, my, my feeling is good. Good for you because I think you're making it, it sounds like it's exciting. Things are happening and they're coming together for you. So I guess my first question would be is what is the most exciting thing that is happening for you? Right this second,
8 (44m 9s):
This second wall, I just established my production company, my film production company in December. And I haven't launched like technically to the public, right until next month. Like I have an official launch day, May 15th next year, next year, next month, while next month. And the most exciting things that are happening are like, I have a small business client lined up for mark doing marketing work. I have someone that approached me for producing a web series that we're kind of developing the scripts. And then last night, DePaul school of cinematic arts student approached me to produce their MFA thesis, which is going to be a sag, a sag agreement.
8 (44m 55s):
So we just locked that in and that'll be, and I, I can't talk about it too much right now, but that's, we're shooting that in August.
2 (45m 4s):
Congratulations.
8 (45m 5s):
So even all of those things are just kind of happening and I haven't even really hit the ground. Yeah.
2 (45m 11s):
Oh my God. You're going to skyrocket. So what ways, if any, did the theater school experience challenge what you already knew about acting from having been a professional actor before the program?
8 (45m 28s):
In a lot of ways, it actually made me, it kind of hurt me a lot because I was very naive going into, and I was a lot more free and a bigger risk taker. And then when I got into TTS, you know, you start peeling back all of those layers about yourself and you're getting constant criticism and people were telling you to experiment, but also it's, you can't really experiment because you're getting graded and you're supposed to be taking risks and shows, but you're also getting a rehearsal and performance grades. So they call it caused a lot of like internal conflict. Where,
1 (46m 4s):
Why does that happen? Is that just the nature of school? I'm really curious as to why. So we have a beginner's mindset, right. Which is a beautiful thing. A lot of us, when we go in some of us, some of, you know, some of your classmates could, like some of ours probably would have been acting since they were like one month old, but for most of us, we didn't know what the hell was going. I didn't anyway. It really was going on. Yeah. So what is it when you say it's cut? Cause you said it was kind of bad, which I totally can relate to the idea of then going from being more free, to being more self-conscious and maybe like precious more about the work, but like what happened? What is the process that makes that happen? TJ, like, I don't get it.
8 (46m 42s):
I think, I think a lot of it is self-induced of like being in the competitive environment and I camp, I come from a sports background and wanting to just like love competition in a healthy manner. So I think a lot of it is that. And then I think a lot of it is just taking when you're, when you're told that there's so many different things that you need to change about yourself to kind of start fresh aching. Did it eat away at you? And like, and in the midst of like your learning, all your, like exposing yourself to all of this childhood trauma that you didn't even know exist in your body is going through all of these changes.
8 (47m 29s):
And you're releasing of this, these emotions that you didn't know existed. The reflection was great, but I think it was also like so much in such a little time to where before I was just kinda like, fuck it. Like, I don't have anything to lose. Like I've never acted I'm going to do this my way, regardless of what they think. And I think in grad school, I got back into a mindset of like, oh no, I actually care what they think.
1 (47m 58s):
Well, the other thing that is because I am a, I, I was listening to the thing you said about the sports mentality or a sports background, like, okay. Like, I was really good at basketball, unbeknownst to me in eighth grade. Okay. Like, shockingly, I was like this overweight kid, but I was really good at basketball. Okay. I didn't know I was good. I just, someone was like, Hey, try out for the team. We need people. I was like, well, I'm doing nothing else. But anyway, I turned out to be really good and I had fun because I had no expectations. I was like, okay, well they want me to play. Someone wants me. And it turns out I was really good. But then when I tried out for the high school team and it was like serious business, of course I never made the team.
1 (48m 41s):
And I never even went back to tryouts after day one, because I was like, oh, I'm not, this is, I'm not now it's serious business. Now this is like where, where the big boys and girls really play and it's competitive, more competitive. And it's more like, it felt more businesslike, you know, instead of fun. So maybe that has, I don't know. I could really relate to that sports analogy of like, when you're free, you're going to play better. You're going to be a better athlete. Right. Cause you can. So it's like how to maintain that freedom as an artist. If we bring it back to the theater school, like how to maintain that freedom to do what you want to do and experiment. And at the same time, take what they're giving you, but not care what they think.
1 (49m 22s):
It doesn't seem possible to me,
8 (49m 23s):
It doesn't. And I think like mid grad school. So probably second year before quarantine and everything happened. I think that was the year where I was like, okay, this is my second year. I know that. I know that I w I like, I really want to set myself up for success beyond just acting. But also I know that the stakes are high, like, or I made them high for myself. Like, oh, I gotta, I have to get an agent. And then you see all of that. You see it, all of your classmates, like they're starting to get representation early, before graduation in the middle of the pandemic. So like, it's like, oh, all of this pressure, and you don't know how the industry is going to be when you get out.
8 (50m 6s):
And also, like, I think I got back into the mindset of which I started in of like, okay, I feel behind already, because I started acting at the age of 28 and I didn't study. I haven't been studying since I was the age of five. Like I grew up in a performing arts family, but I was not other than just doing improv and having fun and making sketches with friends. So like, I didn't have anyone around me as a mentor in my friend group or in my family that could just kind of guide me. So I got this sense of urgency when I first started like, okay, I have to learn everything possible.
8 (50m 47s):
So I didn't care then. But like, when I was in grad school, I just started caring more about what my life could be and what it wouldn't be if I didn't get what I wanted. And I think, I just
1 (51m 4s):
Think she
8 (51m 4s):
Was as a lot of pressure.
1 (51m 6s):
So did you enjoy your time there sometimes some, like, did you, what would you say if someone came to you like were coming to you and say, like, what was your takeaway from that theater school experience in terms of high points and low points?
8 (51m 22s):
I, you know, I've, I, I loved it despite like the first year I will say the first year was brutal. It was brutal. My, my cohort, I love my cohort. We went through like a title nine investigation the first quarter. So it was like emotionally draining, just the, you know, being in a new environment and conservatory to start. And then you have like a sexual harassment case happening that creates like our own type of social distancing thing, where the person can't be in class, we have to go through, like, we're getting Student, this was a cohort member. Who's no longer with the program.
8 (52m 3s):
They got expelled, but, okay. So yeah, we're going through that. And we're navigating like intimacy and like how to get around all of this in our first quarter at DePaul. So a lot happened and it drew us together a lot.
2 (52m 19s):
I'll say my God. I mean, that door normally happens anyway, just because of the intimacy of being in voice and speech classes, but having that to go through, I mean, that, that probably in the end, sorry for whoever got hurt in that experience, but probably in the end boded. Well, for everybody just being able to, to judge
8 (52m 37s):
It did it did. So yeah, that first year was rough. I also went through, like, I went through a racial profiling scenario in the theater school that ended up leaking out to media when the George Floyd things happened in 2020, like that It's a whole thing. I was there's you, where were you all in the, you, weren't in the new building. So
1 (53m 5s):
We're old, we're old as hell. We've we, we graduated in 97 and 98. So no,
8 (53m 12s):
So, so I, I was like napping before rehearsal on the second floor, which is next to like the marketing section. And there's like a couch kind of blocked off, but you know, everyone sleeps in theater school cause you spend like 98% of your time there. And there was a, there was an Encore, a duty officer patrolling. And I think he was new because he had never, I never seen him before anyway. So he like woke me up and then started questioning me and like asking why I was there and who I was and asking for my ID. And I'm like, no, I go to school here.
8 (53m 52s):
And then I was like, why, why did you, why did you wake me up? And then he told me that because someone saw on camera and called to check that there was someone in the building that shouldn't be there. Okay. So we went through this whole process of like investigating and there's no cameras in the theater school. So he lied about why he stopped me. It was, it was, you know, I mean older, like I'm not at a typical theater type look anyway, the case got thrown out because they couldn't like, they couldn't find enough evidence to prove that he was in the wrong, even though he did wrong.
8 (54m 34s):
So they kind of went by that. So that's, this is all first year, right? So the case got,
2 (54m 38s):
Oh my God, you've graduated.
8 (54m 42s):
Yeah. So the case got closed and then we just kinda let it go. But after that first year, I was like, you know what? This was a more emotional turmoil. And I refuse to have the final two years go this way. So that's when I really started focusing on, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to get through school and like get every ounce of it out that I can. And that, and that's kind of like this that's when I kind of started developing like truly developing my production company. It had been in the works for awhile, but that's when I really got serious about it. And then the pandemic hit and like I had a lot of extra free, free time and you know,
2 (55m 23s):
Oh my God, I, I don't think there, there could have been any more calamity that you were facing at this time and you and you, so you truly survive school it on such a deeper level than I think I could, I can attest to, I want to go back to something you were saying earlier, when you were talking about picking careers, you were saying, I didn't want to be a doctor and I didn't want to be a lawyer. And so my assumption was that that's what your parents are. And then you said it's a performing arts family. So tell us more about your performing arts family.
8 (55m 58s):
Yeah. So my mom, she trained in classical singing and she's not a professional singer. My sister was in a performing arts high school and she's 10 years older than I am. So I grew up exposed to like, I grew up exposed to her in a girl group and around artists and around theater. Like my mom was kind of a, she's a public speaker and a politician her own way because I lived in Arkansas for about five years during my childhood. And it was a small town and everyone knew her and she, she ran this, this preschool, but she also did a lot of things in the community where she would have like women's support groups and she would go do like these leadership workshops.
8 (56m 46s):
And she's, I also grew up in a Baptist church and in the black church. So I, I grew up seeing performances a lot in a lot of theatrical performances and seeing my mom speak and she's so like articulate and powerful and I always admired her like, wow, she can get up in front of all these people and speak and like enjoy it. And I could not because I was super shy, like super shy. And I think it's because people told me that I was shy. So I had no interest in performing. Cause I was just terrified of it. And
1 (57m 24s):
I have to pause there for a psychological moment. Isn't that interesting. I did not realize that about shy kids. That a lot of times they're told, oh, this is the shy one. Just like, oh, this is the, you know, whatever one. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling thing. Like this is my, this TJ, he he's the shy kid. And maybe he wouldn't have been so shy if it hadn't been reinforced and reinforced. That's so interesting. It's just like what we tell ourselves like, oh, I can't do that. I can't play basketball at camp, but I'm this one, my sisters, that one, that's so interesting to me. Cause shy you, I mean just shows how people change and w how we aren't really what people say we are.
1 (58m 5s):
So anyway,
8 (58m 6s):
I internalized it and what I've psychologically, I think what it was, I grew up around kids. There were way older than me and way more mature. So I'm a, five-year-old around a 15 year old. And my brother who was six years old or 11, and all of my cousins are like 11, 12. I'm not going to be able to articulate the way that they're articulating and expressing themselves. But, so I think I just kind of withdrew within myself when I wasn't able to do what they were doing, which ties back into me, never acting is because I never thought it was a possibility because I saw them being able to do these things, but I didn't feel like I could express myself that way. So I just did sports.
2 (58m 51s):
Okay. Well, and actually that's kind of a pretty good bridge. Really. If you feel like if you were any bit in your shell, sports does help people come sort of come into who they are a little bit, but what I wanted to ask you was, did you, when did you, when did you figure out that you are not shy and when did you decide that this could be something that you would do?
8 (59m 19s):
I think in my probably, you know, I never, I've always known that I, I wasn't shy. It just depended on who I was around. You know, what, what group I was around. Because if you, like, if you're around my childhood friends and people, I went to high school with, they'll be like, he is not fucking shy. Like what, he's the worst, actually, he's the worst. Once you get them going? I think it has a lot to do with code switching and being in environments. I was very observant as a kid, you know, because I was shy and I listened a lot.
8 (1h 0m 1s):
So I think it was more of, I like to observe people around me before I speak. So I knew I wasn't shy, but I, I also knew that I wanted to be able to have a voice and figure out what that looked like. And that was kind of the journey of me that led me to acting is okay. I want to be able to speak and express myself and I want the tools to be able to do it. I just don't know what that looks like.
2 (1h 0m 33s):
Can you tell us about some of your favorite theater school experiences like performances or, or classes
8 (1h 0m 41s):
Favorite? Okay. Let's Griffin is a favorite of all. She, I could talk about her for days. Phyllis is a voice, was our, my voice teacher and my second year, and just her spiritual and gentle approach and having a black woman as a faculty member was huge. Those are, so those are some of my biggest highlights. So it's probably going to be more on like me and who I had around me. So just for context, I was the only black male in the MFA program when I went in.
8 (1h 1m 26s):
So there were two black women in my cohort. And then the class that MFA two's ahead of me, there was one black woman. And then the, is there was one black woman. So I was the only, like, not only was I, the, I was the only black male in the MFA program in my thirties, going into an environment where like everyone out of the other younger black men were 18, 19 20. So there's like this huge gap where I didn't really, I'd never felt like I had someone that I could talk to, you know, so, but great experiences.
8 (1h 2m 7s):
Our lady of
8 (1h 2m 51s):
And then that final quarter of the second year, the pandemic hit. And one of our professors that we didn't know, which was great. We were terrified because we hadn't worked with him, but he's an alumni, Sean Paris. I don't know if you're aware of Sean Paris.
1 (1h 3m 12s):
I know Sean,
8 (1h 3m 12s):
Sean, Sean has become a big brother to me. He is so amazing. And that was like the point that was game-changing for me, because it was during, it was during the start of the pandemic where I had not only a black faculty member teaching, but also a black male faculty member teaching me and I, that like that was when I really felt like I was able to open up and truly start translating who I am into acting and into my art or my art
1 (1h 3m 42s):
So necessary. What, what did, what was Shawn teaching or was he directing?
8 (1h 3m 47s):
So it was all remote. He was teaching us Meisner and viewpoints, but we were translating it to on camera because everything was done. So I got to really start building my relationship with the camera, Our relationship and the environment, because there's not really on camera for, at the theater school and there needs to be more And I love TV and film is the route that I'm, I want to go mainly in my career.
1 (1h 4m 18s):
So what, when you say like, that really opened you up in that really? What do you think it, I guess what I'm trying to, I want to get clear about, like, what did it do for you as a performer to have that experience with Sean? Like what, what, what happened? What changed in you?
8 (1h 4m 38s):
I got to hear his experiences and see him work because he really, he wasn't, he was a student as well, and he, like, we got to watch him do monologues and watch him work. And I think just being in the environment where someone was like me, literally, who was like me and has experienced it, experienced the type of things that I've experienced in life. It's one of those things where like, growing up, I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me on TV or in film. So I never thought it was a possibility. And sh working with Sean in being around him really opened up what acting can look like for me.
2 (1h 5m 26s):
Oh, that's so beautiful. And I'm never not surprised in all of the ways that representation matters. I never thought about it mattering in the classroom, but it certainly does. I don't know if you got a chance to listen to, we interviewed Justin Ross and he talked about our lady of Cuba. And one of the things that he was talking about was that, that it sounds to me. So I'm asking you to, for clarification, it sounds to me like that production fostered a whole pivot in terms of the curriculum and, and, and how he said it to us as we warmed up differently than was sort of the, the, the usual at the theater school.
2 (1h 6m 14s):
And that, that production helped create a new normal for that. Is that, was that your experience?
8 (1h 6m 21s):
It did. And I think a lot of that has to do with our graduating class with BFA and MFA my class, my cohort was very much of like, we'll burn this institution down if we need to, like, we're, we're changing shit, like regardless. And a lot of it had to do with going through what we went through that first quarter with the title nine situation. It was like we had each other's backs and it was the same way with our lady of Cuba. Oh, if like we have each other's backs because we went through some shit in there too with like,
1 (1h 6m 54s):
Yeah, they, yeah, it didn't, it was like, there was a lot of bad shady shit that went down right there.
8 (1h 7m 1s):
A lot of shit going down. Yeah. And a lot of like unbiased prejudice and racism that was happening with the people who were working on crew, not really having an understanding of the story that we're telling and not really allowing us to tell the story and not really getting our feedback as you know, it was, it was a lot of like an all black cast, but being essentially produced by all white people was right. You know, and there was a lot of conflict during that production, but I do think,
1 (1h 7m 40s):
Do you feel like it changed though yeah.
8 (1h 7m 43s):
To change the culture of TTS? For sure. Because we start, it was, I think that production and the things that happened during it really started shifting the culture of theater in TTS before the culture started shifting in 2020s. It was kind of like the, the catalyst before that.
2 (1h 8m 9s):
Oh my God. Yeah. Only like 50 years too late, not too late, but 50 years late. Like w we've had a of conversations because your experience of being the only black male in, in our generation there, yeah. There was always an, any class, only one person of color, pretty much. I mean, maybe in a couple of years there were two. And certainly Phyllis was our only are ever professor of color. Is she still the only professor of, I mean, I know the new Dean is a woman,
8 (1h 8m 39s):
But the only 10 years
1 (1h 8m 42s):
Tenured and full time, even maybe, I don't know, like adjuncts. Yes. We're cause I'm adjunct. And I know in my cohort of adjuncts there are, but I think full-time like, it's still, what, what, wait, wait, what?
8 (1h 8m 55s):
Yep. Well, Christina, Anthony, Chris, Anthony is new. She came in our second year. So that, she's also a really great she's. She came from California and she's, she has a lot of background in activism and in the classical. So she, she is a full-time staff member, faculty member, faculty member.
2 (1h 9m 18s):
Do you remember your audition? And can you tell us about what your audition was like? Yeah.
8 (1h 9m 22s):
Yeah. So get that. So when I apply for the audition, they were like, you can do the preliminary video or you can just come to in-person and I didn't have any experience with self-tapes. And like, I was still raw. I was like, I don't want to put a monologue on video. Like I won't have a chance at all at all, if I do this, but during that time, I was already preparing for Kentucky Shakespeare auditions. So I had been working monologues and working on a lot of different things with my, my vocal coach. So I did in-person auditions. And it's very funny because I was currently in rehearsals for the show of chorus line, the musical, and then think auditions were on Wednesday, Wednesday.
8 (1h 10m 17s):
Yeah. Auditions were on Wednesday in Chicago. And then there was an audition for cau UC San Diego in Chicago. Like they were, you know, all of the colleges they come and I was like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll get an audition for UC San Diego. And it happened to be the day before the DePaul auditions. So I knew that I wasn't going to go to UC San Diego just because I felt like they don't know who I am. It would be like me applying to Yale and they don't, they have no idea who I am. So I have no chance. So I used that as like a warmup for DePaul, used it for a warmup to get, just kind of get the jitters out and audition.
8 (1h 10m 59s):
And then as I was leaving the, I can't, we were in some hotel downtown, maybe the Hyatt or something like that, as I was leaving, they were like, Hey, we're doing auditions for Columbia and New York. If you have a headshot, a resume and want to get a slot, I'm like, oh yeah, I have these printed out. So I signed up for a slot and then I went and auditioned for Columbia. So it was like, oh, all right. I got these two auditions under my belt. I feel, I feel ready going into tomorrow. Right.
1 (1h 11m 25s):
Wait, can I just say how brilliant it is that you decided to use them as practice? This is the sign of someone who is ready to do their craft when they see not those opportunities as a chance to have a panic attack and die, but as a chance to use their skills and practice and get in front of people and practice, that is a true artist, entrepreneur mindset. Like that is a better mindset. Thank gosh. You had that anyway. Okay. So then do you went to Columbia? Did you do all those?
8 (1h 11m 55s):
I did the Columbia. I did the Columbia and you know, there were, I was in the lobby and just kind of hanging out with people and you hear like the people singing and they're singing. They're like,
8 (1h 12m 35s):
So I walked there. So it was like, oh, I already feel like I'm at home because you know, I'm walking to campus. I walk there, I step on campus and I see the building. I'm like, holy shit. This is, state-of-the-art like, this is amazing. I opened the doors and I walk in and then I knew, I was like, yup, this is home. I'm getting in. I'm going to get in. I'm going to get in. The audition happens. It's it was like a three hour in-person audition where we did some improv in a cohort. We did, we did movement work with Patrice. I don't know if you all know we did movement work with Patrice.
8 (1h 13m 19s):
We did our interview. I interviewed with a Dexter and Patrice on camera. And then I did my monologue. I don't even remember. I did a monologue from, from the Humana play festival. I did one of rose. And then I did, I did a monologue from a fellow classical and I still like that was, I still didn't even know what the fuck a contrasting monologue was. Then I had no idea, but Dexter going into a Dexter Bullard who's the head of the MFA program was like before everyone started, he was like, you know, most people's monologues.
8 (1h 14m 3s):
Aren't going to be good. So it's fine to everyone. So he's like, just, just do it. It's fine. We've seen thousands and thousands of monologues. They're probably not going to be good. So that took a lot of pressure off. And I think what really got me in was during the interview, Dexter was like, so why, why do you want to come to grad school? You're working a full-time job. And I was like, you know what? I just can't see myself doing anything else. And I'm willing to leave my job now and kind of start over and do it. And he ended up being my advisor later and he told me, he was like, that was like one of the most like you're talented.
8 (1h 14m 45s):
And I knew that you would, you be a great actor, but the thing was you, I just felt it. When you said that you were willing to drop everything and like completely shift your life at this stage.
1 (1h 15m 1s):
So that's beautiful. And, and so telling in terms of what also I've been talking about with Gina and other people, which is when there is an authenticity in someone's bones, in their marrow, that what they are saying, they are hundred percent not only telling the truth, because you can tell the truth and still sort of coded or be weird about it. But like, when you are just like, so there and present, I feel like it is an undeniable thing in a room that people feel, and they don't have to, like you, they don't have to know you, but they feel this undeniable truth is in the room.
1 (1h 15m 43s):
And it's sort of like, you can't go against that. Like you can't say no to that. I can't. And most people can't. So that is, and it's is that all on tape? I'd love to see the tape. I'm like all about like, show me the tapes.
8 (1h 15m 58s):
I'm sure they have it because they had to show the other, the, the team. So for review. So I'm sure they have, that would be cool to see everything.
2 (1h 16m 8s):
Wouldn't it be cool to go? W we, we wish we were always saying, oh, we wish anything we did from that time was on tape. It would be cool to go back and see
1 (1h 16m 18s):
When you're, and also when you're mega famous they'll show in about, in about, in about, I would say six months, they'll be showing that Harris tape to the world.
2 (1h 16m 27s):
So I'm going to ask you a question that I wouldn't have been able to answer a few years out of school, but I think you will be able to, which is what is your type? Like, how do you understand yourself as you know what you're bringing to the table as an actor that you may or may not have known before you started the theater school? Hopefully you learned this while you were there.
8 (1h 16m 51s):
Yeah. I'm the, I'm the, the powerful kindhearted, gentle politician slash authority, the rotative figure. Like there's a running joke. Whenever I was going into the office at my, my current corporate job of like, there, he goes again, shaking hands and kissing babies. Cause like, I, I, I CA I had the approach of like, I like to greet people and like meet with people. And like, before the work starts, I just like to say, hi, and how's your day going? And like, get to know them and actually hear what's going on in their lives. And I think I adopted that from my mom, but I, yeah, I'm the, I'm the athletic coach who really wants his players to succeed.
8 (1h 17m 42s):
I'm the, I'm the motivational speaker. Who's not like Tony Robbins because I'm not like rah, rah, rah, fuck you do the district, blah, blah, blah. But also on the, but if you, if you fuck me over it, there's guys going to be some hell to pay. Like, there's kind of like a, a power behind my peace in silence. But also when I use my voice, I feel like I'm very powerful.
2 (1h 18m 9s):
But by the way, all of that came across in your headshots that you put on Instagram, you, you beautifully broadcast all of that. So I think that that was a good session.
1 (1h 18m 23s):
It worked out. I love that. And I also think that you are in an extremely amazing position to be a producer. Like, I feel like that's what we need in, Oh, sorry. That's my dog. Sorry. She's so annoying. That's Doris. Okay. Well, yours is behaved. So yeah, and it, it, it, we need producers like you in Hollywood. So come over here. Your plan is to come out here promptly so that, so that you can hire me. And that's what I'm saying,
8 (1h 18m 57s):
My partner, my partner. So, so I'm, I'm biased. So here's another thing. This is also another element to me, which I think makes me unique because I am bisexual and I'm currently, I am well, not currently. I am in a relationship of it is a long-term relationship. It's moving towards long-term with a man, but I'm more masculine presenting. So there's a, there's a, I still type wise broadcast as a masculine straight man. But also I have the experience of dating men and women and being more vulnerable and having that like gentle side to me, which plays a lot into who I am as a person.
8 (1h 19m 47s):
But yeah, me and my partner were moving out to LA next year. And the plan is to, because my production company is based in Chicago to have a buy a place here and then move out to LA and moved back and forth between LA cause I just got an agent in Chicago a few weeks ago and I have an agent and you can take thank you agent in Kentucky, in Ohio. So just, haven't tried to add as many people to nothing as possible.
2 (1h 20m 11s):
Wait, why Kentucky? You're not from Kentucky
8 (1h 20m 14s):
Area. That's where I was before. So I was in Louisville, Kentucky before I moved to Chicago. Yep.
2 (1h 20m 19s):
Where are you right
8 (1h 20m 20s):
Now? I'm in Chicago. I mean, uptown.
2 (1h 20m 22s):
Okay. What about your showcase experience? What was that like?
8 (1h 20m 30s):
I didn't really have one because of the pandemic. We didn't get to go to New York or LA, which is something I really wanted to do more so LA cause I really want it. I really want to be out there, but we did get to film them and they brought in a production company and we filmed scenes, but it was, it was, it was the first time rehearsing, rehearsing in person because we, we were in mass. We had to rehearse in masks and then we also had to shoot in mass. One person always had to be shooting. So what they did was when we were, we shot it in the, the watch theater, the main theater, the ITTS, and they use two cameras.
8 (1h 21m 15s):
And the wide view shot, they basically had a six feet apart where one person was always wearing a mask and then they edit it together. Our mask lists takes. So it looked like we were in the same scene together. And no one would know that we did that, but it was still eerie because it was still like this we're here doing this work, but we're not type of thing, but it was the first in-person experience I'd had really, for acting.
2 (1h 21m 44s):
Wow. Do they still do the there's the main stage and then there's the workshop? Do they still do performances in the classrooms or does everybody,
8 (1h 21m 55s):
Yeah, they have the, the three main, still the Merle reskin, which is downtown for the children's theater. And then the, the main stage presidium the Watts. And then the Healy black box are In the building. There's two main stages in the building. And then
2 (1h 22m 15s):
They only do children's shows at the rescue. Yup.
1 (1h 22m 20s):
Yeah. It's smart. And also the thing that is amazing about the theater school. So when we knew theater school, TJ, when we were there, obviously it was on Kenmore. And when she says classrooms, we literally did them in classrooms that looked like from 1940. What they have now, as classrooms are basically black boxes, a bunch of them it's gorgeous. It is the most, I went there for a rehearsal and I was for some project I was in and I was like, this is like star Trek. We are in star Trek. So good. Cause you pay a lot of money. People pay a lot of money, get the big, do it, do it up, man.
8 (1h 22m 55s):
Yeah. Every, every room there's like, there's the entry-level black box that has lighting and sound and then it just gets more and more complex as you move into different.
2 (1h 23m 6s):
That is so cool. And I'm not better at all than I paid for that. And didn't get to, okay. So you've got this production company. And did you say you're making a film right now?
8 (1h 23m 19s):
I, yeah, I am joining the, I joined the team to produce a short film and I am in the beginnings of writing a script for a horror feature.
2 (1h 23m 34s):
Oh, so cool. Can you tell us anything about,
8 (1h 23m 37s):
I don't know much about it other than I do know that it, I want the cast to be majority black and I want to cast DePaul MFAs as, as leads and main supporting cast. So that's, I'm kind of starting from there and writing.
2 (1h 23m 55s):
I love that you're taking, you're taking a position of power from the beginning, which is not something everybody feels equipped to do, but it's really where you need to get eventually anyway. So you might as well start that way. Who are some of your horror heroes,
8 (1h 24m 11s):
Horror heroes, Jordan Peele by far right now. I love the aesthetics of Hitchcock net necessarily Hitchcock is the person. But I, I do think a lot of my work is going to be influenced by his cock. And then a lot of like black horror films, like tales from the crib and the original Candyman is something that always sticks in my mind. It's the only horror movie that absolutely still tears terrifies me as an adult. The original, I thought it, I thought it was, I thought it was okay.
8 (1h 24m 55s):
I thought it was good. I thought there could have been more horror and I love seeing Chicago people in the cast. And I love just being here while this was shooting and debut was amazing, but it was also hard to compare it to the original.
2 (1h 25m 18s):
Yeah. Yeah. Since you mentioned Jordan Peele, who's one of my favorites too. I just had this image that they could read to us in the theater school setting right there. Right. There's this sort of a similar duality. It would be a really interesting thing to explore.
8 (1h 25m 35s):
That would be a nightmare.
2 (1h 25m 42s):
I mean, but that's, but that's what people have anyway. Right? They have their, because my experience at school was, I didn't know, and I didn't want necessarily to be in film and TV. And so we did these three years because it was, we did undergrad. It was three years of theater, theater, theater, theater theater. And then the fourth year, everybody started talking about like getting an agent. And I felt like I was just the only one who didn't get the memo, but I saw all of my classmates who had acted like they all wanted to do theater to completely turn into different people. That's something that happens in the last year of school that I don't know.
2 (1h 26m 22s):
Like I don't know that necessarily we need to be having a conversation about it, but it's just, it's just interesting to me. It's like everybody allows themselves to relax and learn and soak it all in. And then in the last year it's like, yeah, but I've got to be famous and I've got to do it right now. Right. Did you observe?
8 (1h 26m 40s):
I did observe that. And actually I think going back to the, approaching it as a kind of a business venture thing, I stayed away from theater as much as possible. Like if I didn't have to be a TTS, I was not there. And I wasn't going to like every, everyone in my cohort was like going to plays every weekend and everyone was doing, I was like, I love it. I need to, I need to be hanging out with people outside of theater people because I will go nuts if I'm constantly around this, because I don't part of what makes me, who I am is I love to be very well-rounded.
8 (1h 27m 20s):
So I can't only do one thing. I would be miserable if I had only consumed just the theater school environment. So in a lot of ways, I think that that also affected some of my relationships with BFAs just cause I wasn't around as much, but also it was good for my mental health to be a way
1 (1h 27m 45s):
It's interesting that thing we crave or at least I'll speak for myself. The thing that I was craving, which was this sort of in mashed support, not having good boundaries, like I craved this sort of weird family vibe that I got a lot of times at the theater school is also probably not healthy for my own entrepreneurial spirit to strike out on my own and do what I wanted to do for me. Not based on what my, my cohort was doing or like, it's just the things that we crave are also things that sometimes we just, we need to stay away from. And I, I mean, I guess so like one of my last questions for you would be because I'm really okay.
1 (1h 28m 29s):
So my new dream is to help create a program for acting conservatories to start the launch earlier for, for, for students. So that it's not a final, like in the third quarter, how do we become famous? Like, I think that's a terrible idea. So I think, so I guess my question is, what do you think it would take to really make the theater school, a place that would have really launched you? Or maybe you feel like you got it launch you as more of a, an entrepreneur, like you have that inside of you, but is there anything that they could have done to make a launch into the world of a professional artists better?
8 (1h 29m 14s):
Yeah. So the MFA's we had workshop classes where we had a lot of, like, that was a lot of the business side. I don't think there'll be a phase guide, anything like that. Truly. I don't think until the theater school had operates as a business, I don't think it's going to be there. Cause I don't necessarily think that TTS operates as a business. So, oh,
2 (1h 29m 46s):
Say more about that. What do you
8 (1h 29m 47s):
Mean? I don't think, I mean, they're not really concerned with ticket sales. They're not concerned with filling seats. You're not concerned with marketing because we still haven't been getting MFA alumni newsletters this past year. So we haven't gotten, have you all gotten an email about the new Dean? I only found out about it through social media. So like stuff like that. There are a lot of gaps where if I think people in the leadership positions need to have the business mindset in order to, for it to trickle down. So it's going to, it's going to have to come from leadership.
2 (1h 30m 26s):
That's fascinating. That's the last bastion. So this, this thing that's happened in theater, basically, maybe since the seventies has been this gradual moving away from this purist mentality about it has to only be theater and reckoning and an understanding that people can't make their living, even if they're on Broadway doing theater. So it makes sense that the conservatory program would be sort of the last bastion of being late to getting this memo. Right. Because that's what they did do that they did. They did romanticize and kind of give you the, give us the idea that that's where the real acting was.
2 (1h 31m 7s):
Right. And what I've observed. I think so certainly since we've been, there is a gradual understanding that that's, that's not where it's at economically.
8 (1h 31m 16s):
No. And a lot of it is how you market yourself and, and the relationships you're building and, and understanding the industry. I, so to answer your question, I think having someone like truly engulfed in the industry in the environment is a start that way. It's just kind of, the information is spreading. And I don't think students come out really knowing what to expect from the
2 (1h 31m 47s):
No on the domes. Okay. TJ, we have to wrap up. So tell people where can they find you?
8 (1h 31m 53s):
You can find me at T dot J dot Harris dot it's all periods in between my, my name, TJ Harris on Instagram and then instinct division films.com. So the word instinct, and then the letter, I then vision films.com also on social media and providing a lot of updates on there. The website is up and running and they're going to be a lot of cool things coming up soon.
2 (1h 32m 23s):
Oh, I can't wait. You're unstoppable. Thank you. Oh wait. Oh, before we go, I have to, you're going to be the third person I'm asking, but I'm going to keep asking if you ever talk to Phyllis, tell her we really love her to be on this show.
8 (1h 32m 38s):
I think texting
3 (1h 32m 48s):
If you liked what you heard today, and please give us some positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina Polizzi are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Polizzi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Gina made a terrible lasagne. Boz debunks the myth of chicken. Carl Buddig beef bags, Doritos, smoked soup, Colombian food, HOKAs,
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
And at 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (34s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. It is. I Gina reporting to you live. I mean, it's live to me, but it's not live to you because you most definitely aren't hearing it in the exact moment. I'm saying it, but you get the idea. It's Monday night, I'm here at my house sitting in my room where I always record when I talked to boss and I'm I'm, I'm coming on here to tell you that. Hmm. Do you know that expression inside baseball?
2 (1m 15s):
I don't understand when people say, oh, that's too inside baseball. Because for me, all I care about is the inside of something. I don't even like baseball. I'd love to be inside baseball. You want to show me where they get the dirt off their cleats. Great. You want to show me what kind of savvy they have to use on their cracked hands from rubbing? Oh, that says this is going to sound sexual. I don't mean it that way, but from holding the bat. Yeah. I want to see that you want to, you want to tell me about contract negotiations? I mean, I want to hear that stuff. I want to hear that stuff more than I want to hear about, or, you know, like actually watch baseball anyway.
2 (1m 59s):
I'm, I'm bringing this phrase up because I've never understood why people, don't, what people think it's bad to be inside baseball. And also by way of telling you that today's episode is going to be a little inside baseball. We record every week. We interview people every week. And at the very beginning, we had so many interviews stacked up that it was months between when we would record somebody and when it actually aired. But once all of that stack got aired, now we pretty much go week to week and that's fine, unless, and until we have a cancellation or two, as the case is for us right now, we had two back-to-back cancellations.
2 (2m 52s):
So one time when we had this, I put, I repaired an old episode, which I thought was really a great episode. And I'm really glad I repaired it. And then a couple of times we've aired episodes with just BAAs and I talking with no interview. And the reason I like to put something up is because personally, when I listened to podcasts and people take a week off, I really hate that. I really hate when a podcast I'm really used to listening to, you know, coming out on a certain day and like, that's the day I'm gonna, Ooh, it's Tuesday. I get to whatever, walk my dog and listen to my favorite podcast.
2 (3m 33s):
I hate it when those people take a vacation, but that's what I did. I took a vacation last week and boss was going to record one solo, but her interview canceled. And then the person that we're supposed to speak to tomorrow canceled. So honestly, we're probably gonna have the same problem next week, unless something magical happens. And we're able to interview somebody else before this weekends and who I'm saying all this to say, we do have an episode today. It is not previously aired material. It is boss and I talking, but it is not an interview.
2 (4m 14s):
And if that's not your jam that I get it, you can, you can just skip this one. Maybe this is not, maybe this is not the one for you, but if you're like me and you are inside baseball and you like things that are inside baseball. And by the way, I mean, it's not like it's inside baseball in the sense that we're talking about, you know, like the platform that we're hosting our podcasts, it's not actually really inside baseball. It's just not, it's just not our typical episode. Anyway, I also want to take this opportunity to think we have actually kind of a surprising number of listeners in other countries.
2 (4m 54s):
And I have never done something that I've always wanted to do, which is acknowledge all of these wonderful listeners. And so I'm going to do that right now. First we have New Zealand and I happen to know the person who listens to us from New Zealand or at least one of the people. And he Sean Spratt. And he went to theater school with us. And one day we'll have him on the podcast, but thank you, Sean Spratt for your listenership. Very much appreciated. We have listeners in Spain, the United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Singapore, Russia. Although not for the last couple of months.
2 (5m 34s):
If you know what I mean. France, Jordan, Nepal, Canada, Australia, Brazil, Israel, Virgin islands, pork bowl, Rico, Mexico, Austria, Sweden, Palestine, the Netherlands, Morocco, South Korea, Japan, Finland. I heard Finland has great coffee. I'd like to go there someday. Bangladesh, Uganda, Slovakia, Poland, Ireland, Indonesia, and BA. Right? Thank you to all of you, whoever you are out there listening to our little podcast. I appreciate you.
2 (6m 15s):
I do. I appreciate you deeply. I am also going to take this opportunity to recognize some fabulous comments that people have left on apple podcasts in the form of reviews. Something. I also greatly appreciate Larkin and Ellis says what a fun show to listen to and to have communion with other theater folks. So many of us survived, thrived or crashed. That's true. Afterschool and hearing tales of everyone's experience brings such humanity to the process. Jen and Gina are delightful and treat each, each guest with such grace, highly recommend. Thank you, Larkin Ellis.
2 (6m 57s):
Next. We have Zoe incredibly warm, funny and fascinating. These hosts get the best out of their guests. If you are involved in any part of the acting business, this will be a fascinating podcast for you. If you went to any theater school, this could be an opportunity for immense healing and processing things you didn't even know needed more attention. I laughed so hard. I cried. It was bad. It was better than cats. Thank you, Sophie. All right, BJP. Oh, that's I know who this is. This is Brian Brian Polak, who has also a great podcast. I mean, he had an episode on ours, but he's the host of the subtext podcast, which is all about playwrights.
2 (7m 38s):
And very interesting. If you haven't listened to it, please do his latest urban. I don't know if it's his actual latest, but one of his most recent ones features Tracy Letts. So that's cool. Anyway, Brian says not only are the interviews always free range and fascinating, but the conversations between Jen and Gina that begin each episode are warm and fun. It's like catching up with old friends every new time. Every time a new episode comes out. Thank you. Brian Love that. Scott says this podcast is such a gift, exclamation point. Anyone who has dabbled in the fine arts can relate to the conversations that the hosts and guests are discussing. I would also go as far as to say, listening to this podcast is like having a free therapist, especially if you are embarking on a career in the performing arts.
2 (8m 25s):
Thank you, Scott. Lovely Scott. Oh, and then here's one I wrote for myself. Yes I did. This is an inside baseball moment. I wrote my own review because I feel at times very desperate to get reviews. So I wrote one for myself. Love the way it is to interrogate the psychological makeup of actors and others who pursue an education at a conservatory. Thank you, Gina. Thank you for your comments, Gina. What a sweet girl. You are. Jimmy McDermott says these ladies dig deep. Thanks Jimmy. Somebody who calls themselves four lifetimes ago, love that love listening to this podcast.
2 (9m 8s):
As it leads me down memory lane, I'm also able to reflect on my own time, spent at theater school and what it meant to me and how it shaped me into who I am today. Gina and Jen are fantastic hosts, very welcoming with thoughtful questions. Thank you for lifetimes ago that we've got eat Beth James, this pod delightfully dives into fascinating memories and lessons from dream chasers in their youth. A must listen for everyone who has even entertained a life in theater, yay to Jen and Jayna for bringing this quirky subject to life in such a real and interesting way. Thank you. E Beth James, who was nice. Happy in Galveston.
2 (9m 48s):
Just finished listening to y'all's interview of my son's Seiler. Oh yeah. Okay. So this is sailor's mama y'all did an amazing, oh, I'm going to read it like I'm from Texas. Just finished listening to y'all's interview with my son, Tyler Siler, not Tyler. Tyler is a very Texas named Seiler. Of course y'all did an amazing job. I've known him for 47 years and I learned so much about him. I never thought for a minute that he'd be bullied at theater school, not my Sattler, but it was a real relief to know it didn't happen. Something he didn't mention is that he was a year ahead in school and contracted a ripper in case mano right before leaving for college. So he started college in Chicago as a 17 year old with the case of mano and Dave.
2 (10m 32s):
Great. It was really fun. Hearing him recount the shows he was in that bear costume was the worst. I'll look forward to hearing interviews with Kevin and PJ. Great. And we did interviews with Kevin and PJ. So I hope you liked those Mrs. Siler. Thomas' mom. All right. You got the idea. I love these nice reviews. Thanks to everybody who gave one who wrote one. And if you are not among those who have read, reviewed us rated or reviewed us, what are you waiting for? Literally? What are you right this second? What are you waiting for? A pause.
2 (11m 12s):
This rambling that I'm doing and go leave us a review. Okay. Thanks. Appreciate it. All right. I think I've, I think I've yammered long enough. Please enjoy this conversation. Or actually to be honest, it's like three different conversations that it edit it together. Please enjoy this chit chat sesh with me and buzz love you. I'm sorry to hear about your lasagna. I made the word, it was disgusting.
2 (11m 53s):
I a leftover rotisserie chicken and I Googled like, what can I do with my leftover rotisserie chicken? And I saw this thing make a lasagna with mush. It happened to be all the ingredients that I had and needed to use mushrooms, spinach and rotisserie chicken. Now I will say, I thought to myself that doesn't sound like a good lasagna, like rotisserie chicken. Yeah. I don't know mushrooms are okay. It's finishes. Okay. But the rotisserie chicken and then it was a white sauce and girl, it was, I mean, simply inevitable. And I'm the person in the family who, because I make the food, even if it's not good, I eat it because I spent a lot of time making that, you know, I had this one had to make its way to the, to the trash and media Mente.
2 (12m 38s):
Nobody, even nobody else. Even my son is lactose intolerant. So he really can't use something like that. Anyway, I had made him a special version. He can eat cheddar, I guess, letters like certain cheeses that are made to him. A version of it, the head cheddar cheese, he actually said it was really good. Maybe it was better than, you know, because it had more like Tang to it. But that's the thing you need to have some acidity. This had zero acidity. It was just right. That's very interesting. I was thinking about that on my walk over here. Cause I saw your posts and I was like, yeah, I think that white sauce is really hard to pull off. Like yeah, unless maybe you have to have like tons of butter and then, but then the rotisserie chicken, which reminds me of a story.
2 (13m 24s):
So my, my mom, okay. After Thanksgiving, right at we'd have this Turkey carcass. Right. And then she'd make the Turkey soup. Okay. But one year my uncle, aunt and uncle came from San Francisco, you know, they're from San Francisco. So they wanted to smoke and brine the Turkey. Okay. Let me tell you something. If you've ever had a smoked Turkey soup, it's the most disgusting Turkey, Turkey noodle soup. I mean, I ate it and I was like, mom, what, what, what, what what's happening? And she was like, well, I just, I said, wait, this is the smoked Turkey. You can't have smoked soup.
2 (14m 6s):
It's like the word wait, was your mama? No, no, but she, okay. So my mom was not ever like literally we, I grew up on McDonald's and I don't know if I've told the budding beef story here. Okay. So kind of one thing. So our lunch has kids. Oh my God. It's no wonder that I have food issues. Like our lunches kids and I don't look, she was doing the best she could. I don't, I I'm. I'm just sick. It's a travesty. What went on. So we had in a lunch bag, a whole bag of fake Karl budding beef bags, which are, which are just fake beef. I don't know if you've ever seen it in the store.
2 (14m 46s):
Go in the cold cut section. I don't even know if it's legal to sell this shit anymore. But they had Carl budding beef, which wasn't real beef. Yeah. Oh, it was like a vegan thing or no, no, no. It's like spam, like processed beef. So like processed. Yeah. Like processed beef and beef beef. Did she say beef bag? Yeah. Okay. So it's in a bag in a bag and, and there's like 20, probably 24 slices in a bag. My mom would put the whole bag in our lunch. So we'd have 20 and it was salty. No wonder. I mean like it's all, she would just throw the whole bag in.
2 (15m 29s):
It was probably $2 or bag at that time. So she would throw the whole bag of beef in and then yeah. Well she wasn't, I mean, my mom was literally like, let me just work and fuck these people. And then, okay. So that was that a bad and it wasn't like back then they didn't have the small snack size bags. So it was like a snack ish size bag of Doritos, which we would wrap each Dorito and a piece of beef. Oh God. Okay. So Doritos. Okay. It was Doritos, a beef fat. I'd be like, mom, there's no food. And she'd be like, grab yourself a beef bag for lunch. Be fat. Just a bag of obese.
2 (16m 9s):
Yeah. And it was so that it was so salty. I remember it. Okay. So, so I'd have the Doritos and the beef bag and it have been so thirsty after lunch. Well, no wonder I have like I high blood pressure. I'm like, this is, this is the impetus for the whole thing. Then it would be a Capri sun to wash it down and then dessert for dessert. It was literally okay. My mom thought she was doing this great thing by getting hostess, went through a phase of doing hostess light. I don't know if you remember, they had light and they had light cupcakes. So it was like a plastic version of their real co she would throw one of those in there. That was my lunch for probably 10 years.
2 (16m 51s):
Well, every day, like, yeah. Do you ever, could you ever by hotline? Yeah. So Friday, sometimes the hot lunch was literally the square pizza and tater tots. Right, right. Certainly were not, there was no chance of you getting nutrition. I had no vegetables or fruit ever, like ever. And then when she would cook and my dad, you know, he didn't do shit. So, but when she would cook, it would be like weird shit. Like she would make vats of like beef goulash. She's Colombian. What is she making beef goulash for? It was why didn't she make Colombian food? Not, it's not my favorite thing. It's a lot of, some of it's good, but she, she wanted to just assimilate and fuck her past understandably, but also it's a lot of starches.
2 (17m 41s):
It takes a lot of time. It's a lot of like flowery doughy, everything. So it wouldn't have been that much more nutrition, but it might have tasted better. Yeah, dude, it was, and the goulash would be frozen. Oh my God. She would freeze the goulash. And it was egg noodles. And this meat that had the strange sauce, like tangy, speaking of tangy, but not tangy in the greatest way. And then we'd have to, and I'd be like dad, where, and she was always out of town. I'd be like, dad, I'm not eating this. So we'd order pizza. That was the first. Okay, well this is, this is really sounding so familiar to me. So when I was growing up, my, my mother who worked more than full time, came home every single night and made dinner.
2 (18m 24s):
And you know, she had her repertoire, but I mean, she, she made dinner from, there was nothing she didn't even use. Like, and they didn't really have too much of it then, you know, nothing was really pre-made. She, she, she made dinner and of course I always hated it because it was something like, you know, she cooked fish or she, you know, she had these weird she's from New Mexico. So she has these looks, she puts all of us in her spaghetti sauce. It's just like some weird things like that. So there's lots of things that she made that I didn't like, but I so relate to it now. And I relate to your mother freezing the goulash because it's just like every night I have to cook dinner every night.
2 (19m 6s):
And of course I have this panel of critics. That's just like everything I make disgusting. If it's, if it's nutritious in any way, if it's not nutritious, then, then they're really happy with it. Oh my God. That sounds horrible. It's horrible. So I've had this very like passive aggressive relationship and resentful relationship with cooking for my family. We end up ordering out, like I would say, well, definitely two nights a week, but some weeks three. And it's, I hate it. I just, I hate absolutely everything about it. And I also relate to being on the receiving end of food that, you know, it's just like, it's a no win situation.
2 (19m 47s):
It really is. I mean, I think the only thing to do is like, when kids are like two and three, get them to start cooking and be like, fuck it. You're on your own because you know, so my son can really cook. He can really cook, but he's low on the motivation. He's like, that's, you know, that's kinda your job and he's not, he's not wrong. I mean, you know, as much as I, he's not wrong, it is sort of my job. But anyway, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's not good, but okay. How do we get because of my lasagna? Oh, the lasagna. So yeah, I, I saw, I heard that and I, I, I read that this morning and I was like, Ooh, but the good news is that the chicken? I mean the chicken, well, I guess the chicken would have ended up in the garbage anyway, but did, did the dog eat any of it?
2 (20m 31s):
No. You don't give that to them. I gave, well, I gave no, I gave the dog like the skin of the chicken that I wasn't using on the middle of Sunday. But I forgot to mention, I made it on Sunday, which is the day that you so graciously ordered my family pizza, which is why we didn't meet lasagna on Sunday. We ate it last night, but then we, it was gross. But on Sunday, I guess everybody have to tell everybody where we texting or talking on the phone phone about a funny audition situation. Yeah. And I was telling you, like Aaron had a stomach bug. My daughter had her broken arm. My son, oldest child always has some pains.
2 (21m 14s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. He's like, I woke up, I walked out the door. The first thing I see is just blood all over the bathroom. Mostly has been going on for 30 minutes. It looked like a crime scene in there. I mean, it was just one thing after the other. So you sent me pizza. Yeah. I don't even feel that. And you sent these something we'd never had before. It's wings, boneless wings, but oh my God, those were a huge hit. So yeah, because you know what my thing is because I'm so greedy, Gina is that you don't want the bone getting in the way of the food. So just eat the goddamn, like who needs the bone?
2 (21m 54s):
Like, fuck the bone. Like you want the food? I don't go in for like ribs. I don't go in for anything with a bone. I'm like, I mean, rotisserie chicken. Okay. But I just take the honk of breastfeed off. I don't need a bone getting in my way is what I'm telling you. Okay. But a bone, like, honestly, you might want to reconsider that because food meats cooked with Bonin are usually more flavorful and tender. True. That true debt to debt. So like, I think you're right. Like, but I also am known to love a dry as fuck piece of chicken. I don't yeah. The chicken breasts without anything on it. Yeah. I, there is some weird thing about me that I, and also, you know, which is sad that I love chicken so much because my doctor told me there's no nutritional value in chicken.
2 (22m 42s):
Like, like literally, yeah. The protein, it's like a very small amount of protein in chicken. It's like garbage, garbage it's air. Like basically. So we're killing these chickens and we're thinking we're eating, being healthy. And really she's like, just eat fish like that. You, you just, chicken is not. And I was so sad when, cause she said eat before eight. If you're not going to eat beef, do fish. But like you don't count on a chicken for your protein is what Joe, Kayla, the chicken damn that's up ending my entire, we ate chicken all the time. I'm always like, that's the healthier thing to give my kids. No, I know. And like, I, it was like, I wish it was different, but chicken is like a non issue.
2 (23m 23s):
Like a it's like not really a thing. No. And I was like, well, you know what? Like chick Chick-fil-A is going to be up in arms about this big that's right. And what about eggs? Can we have that's all protein. All. Okay. But she was like, literally I think she said, and I wish we had so many listeners that they would like write in and tell me I was wrong. So if you are listening and tell me that I'm wrong. But like, I think she said that like, there's more protein in like four florets of broccoli than a chicken breast. Oh, that isn't the same. This is reminding me of it's reminding me of when I found out that the reason that we all thought breakfast was the most important meals because the cereal companies put off that how much of our life is just a complete lie foisted.
2 (24m 18s):
Well, I advertising you asked Adam McKay all of it, all of it. All right. We are so influenced by every single thing. Yeah. So anyway that, yeah, I know. I know that. I know that's really true for me. I know 1000% that I will buy something with prettier packaging. Even if it's not as good quality as the other, that's it, it all goes back also to my, my Charleston chew a story. I never told you this. So what? I was little, another something fell. Oh, okay. When I was little, my mom said you can get any candy bar at the store. Right.
2 (24m 58s):
And my greedy ass was like, I'm going to get the biggest candy bar. The biggest one. I I'm going to get the biggest one because I was greedy. Right. And also food was loved to me. Right. So, I mean, that's the truth. So I was like, I'm going. So we went to the store and I remember looking Snickers that I'm like, look at that motherfucking Charleston shoe. It's like 10 feet long. But I didn't know. I never had a Charleston shoe. So my sister got probably something reasonable received, something like that. I got this huge Charleston shoe thinking. I fucking beat the system. I con this bitch out of a huge, it tasted like it was like a strawberry vanilla coaster.
2 (25m 39s):
Right. Just ripped out my retainer. Like that's all I was like, that was my first lesson in greed that in, you know, like the, so there's other stories. But like that, that, that story was like, oh my God, you can't trust. So we've learned this morning, Gina, you can't trust a chicken for your protein and you can't fucking trust a Charleston shoe or a white sauce or a white sauce. That was the first lesson this morning. That was the first lesson. Yeah. Anyway, how is miles? His birthday know? It was really good. It was okay. So there's this place in, in Pasadena that I, my friend works at and she's the funniest.
2 (26m 20s):
I mean, she's like, we're friendly. We're not like good buddies, but she, she works at this place called noodle street. Okay. And you, and it's not noodles. And co which miles told everyone, I was taking him to noodles and fucking co for his birthday. I was like, is that a fast? It's like pancakes. I'm like miles. You can't tell people that I'm not that ridiculous. Not that there's any, well, there is wrong with that. Like, I can't take you there for your birthday. Like that for a celebration ticket, injured husband to Panera. I mean, some people probably do it look, but whatever it's like on the Pinera level, but noodle street is a handmade noodle company in Pasadena. And my friend Christina works there.
2 (27m 0s):
Who's hilarious. And I wanted to take him there. So we went to noodle street and it was one of those things where we're like, Christina, just give us a bunch of food. Right. She literally, there were like 10 dishes. I was like, it was so much food that miles miles does the same. And I love him. And, and look, I obviously have food issues, but he will eat until he throws up sometimes like that, that, or almost like, I've never, I haven't done that. And since I was a child, I don't think. But like he, he can't and it's not like we just so good. He can't stop himself. There's a problem area.
2 (27m 40s):
And so this happened at Ethiopian once where he literally threw up and had to do something in his mouth, you know what I mean? Like he can't stop himself. So he just went crazy and it's really like, they used, you know, she uses it's it's Asian fusion and there's all different, cool spices. Oh my God. So I didn't want to be the jerk. That's like, like censoring my husband, but, or like trying to food shaman, but I'm like, miles, you gotta slow down. Like this is not going to go. Well, like when he busted into the ramen, the beef, the pork res braised ramen after like six other dishes, I was like, oh dude. And so then he was, he was, he had a problem.
2 (28m 21s):
He didn't actually have the problem, but we were, so we, we had to close and we were going to go get ice cream and he's like, I can't do it. Luckily we walked. Right. So we could move a little bit. I was fine, but we don't do really. We don't do presence. So like, not that we don't either. Yeah. Because everything you buy is sort of like, I mean, you know, you, you have the money for what you need and then if you have extra money, it's usually for things that are going to be urgent, like you have to fix something in your car, right. Oh, for me, it's like any extra money goes towards my Hoka recovery sandals and my Hoka. Okay. What's a mile sent me a video of you doing a Hoka dance.
2 (29m 2s):
What is a Hoka? Okay. So whole, because our shoes that I believe hookah Ona, Ona, which is one, one, but it's, I believe Hawaiian, Japanese influent look, I'm ignorant. I don't know. But it is not pronounced one, one. That's all I know it's own. I own a, and so Hoka on it own, it is the name of a company they make for me, with my plantar fasciitis in my right foot and just getting old Sebas shoes. Like I'm wearing my hookup. I'm wearing them right now. You can't see, but like, they are there. Some of them are, but ugly like platform. Like, like they look like a platform sneakers sometimes, but like, like the janky brand, but they aren't, they are there's walking shoes and trail shoes.
2 (29m 52s):
And I tried to run a them and it's a little clunky, but their soul light and they're really expensive, but they also make a recovery slide. Okay. So this is a very Californian situation, but in your, my floors are so hard and because it's fake wood right. In our apartment and I have bad feet. So I, you know, feet problems right now. So my doctor was like, you cannot walk barefoot. And it's so warm in California. Barefoot is the worst you can't work or people shouldn't walk. You should not walk barefoot on hard surfaces. No, no, no. I know it's not a good deal. So even so in California, it's so warm.
2 (30m 34s):
You're like, I'll just put on my flip flops. Terrible idea. Flip-flops should be abolished unless they are orthotic flip-flops this is partially how I got into my problem. So I have higher arches, but even if you have regular arches, my friends, you need support on your feet, especially as you get older. So I didn't know this. It's not even like flip flops or the new high heels, like what we shouldn't be doing, you know? Oh my God, that's insane. And my acupuncture has been saying this Liz I'm so sorry. I'd never listened to you. She said this for years, I saw her 10 years ago. And she was saying this, so recovery slides are Hoka makes a recovery slide, which is basically like a slide, like an Adidas or van slide.
2 (31m 16s):
But they're like super orthopedic. They're not pretty, I mean, minor kind of pretty cause they're blue. But like, they look like, yeah, regular slides, but they're super tall. And this made out of this really light, plastic and rubber, and they are so comfortable for when you come home, you take off your shoes and you don't go barefoot, you go in your recovery. So it's like, how shoes, how shoes? But like for like people would stuff. Yeah. They're really expensive. Like hookahs are like $175, $200 shoes. And the recovery slides are one 50. It's not cheap. Like I had to save up, we used our fucking credit card points for my Hoka collection.
2 (31m 57s):
Like that's what I'm saying. Like that, that's what it's for. Right. So anyway, so my jam and like, you know, people, you know, like I feel like Eddie Vetter is a big Hoka fan. It's like a hippie kind of thing. Okay. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, you know, I'm sure any better has a good need for support. Just like the rest of us so old, like we are. But also I was gonna say like, I actually didn't know, my husband sent you that video. That's hilarious. What? Oh, so cute. He's only ever texted me twice, but both times he started with this is miles, which is adorable. And I want him to be like, I know I have your number saved into my phone, 55.
2 (32m 39s):
So anyway. Yeah. I think he, I think he, you know, I think he thinks that you're the greatest thing ever, which I love because you are, and I'm glad that you have somebody who thinks you're the greatest thing. Oh, it's much better than what I used to have. Yeah. I know much better. The diametric opposite. Opposite. Yeah. No, if people like, no, I was telling someone's people in LA that are like younger than us, but approaching 40 are always like dating in LA is the worst. And I'm like, it is, it's really bad here. It's really, really bad. And I would tell them stories about when I was here in oh six and it was the worst or oh five.
2 (33m 22s):
And it was the worst. Is it really bad? Just because of the problem of like everybody's posturing. Cause it's like that in New York, I think to people, you know, people are at that phase of life where they're really just trying to make something of themselves. And it's a lot about like getting to the next, whatever. Yeah. I think it's what you talk about, which is just straight up sexism where like the men who are okay. So no one, my friend is like 38. I think she said my co-working friend. And she was just saying that like the men, her age, won't date, 38 year olds, they will only date 28 year olds. So she has to date 68 year olds or 58 year olds.
2 (34m 5s):
Okay. All right. That's the problem. It's so boring. I'm like, you know what? Fuck, this it's diagnostic too. Like when you, when you read about people, you know, the Leonardo DiCaprio's of the world who only ever it's like, okay, but so that's, that's either because you are psychologically, emotionally, whatever yourself, still 20. So you need, or it's because you are so narcissistic that you need somebody who's docile and who you can basically tell what, you know, whatever your garbage is too. And they'll believe you because they're so young. I always knew that about Leonardo DiCaprio, but I just recently read about somebody else who it's like, it's like everybody it's like Larry, David, it's not, it's not even like, like sexy young youngish dudes or middle-aged dudes.
2 (34m 53s):
It's like everyone. And, and, and it's just so other dudes will say, oh my God, look at that dude. He got that young chick women don't give a fuck. I said, the other thing is it's. It's interesting. Cause when I worked for Nick cage, he married someone 20 years younger. She was awesome. I loved her. I love that. He's still married. No, I loved Alice. I loved her and it wasn't her fault, but it was a really apparently a match that, you know, didn't last. But what I realized in getting to know Alice was that it's like, right. I it's not, it's not her fault.
2 (35m 33s):
Like she, she's just trying to live her life. And she's also 2020. I was basically five years old. So like let's not get right. So anyway, I also know, like I try not to shame the women in those situations because I'm also like, yeah, but, but it's just a bad situation. I'm just like the And minus your shirt, you did some change.
2 (36m 15s):
I did a costume change. I was listening to God. I love Leslie Odom Jr. In Hamilton so much. Oh, have we never talked about that? I have never seen Hamilton or heard the music. Me neither until like six months ago when Gisa gave me a ticket to Hamilton in LA and it was not obviously Leslie, it was not that cast, but I thought I would hate it. Like I literally was like, I cannot do this. Like I, and then despite my best efforts to hate it for some reason, and to just want to be a hater, I fell in love with that musical, like fell in love.
2 (36m 57s):
And I was like, I'm in I'm all in. I don't, I cannot explain. I think it was also because I was in a place where I was like, holy shit, people make stuff like this, it's it. He takes the acting, the singing, the dancing. I was like, this is like, why we have, you know, this is the best of humanity, the very, very, very, very best. And then I got obsessed with the original soundtrack because it's, it's just, they're they're just brilliant. And the guy who plays Aaron Burr is Leslie Odom Jr. Who I didn't know from shit. Right. Obsessed. Like the guy, Aaron Burr is my favorite character in the whole show. He's the guy who kills Hamilton.
2 (37m 38s):
Right. So yeah. Well Lin Manuel Miranda did. I'm not sure if it was all of the music, but certainly some of the music for, in condo. Have you seen in content? Yeah. So I have such a weird relationship with that movie. I was curious about that, considering that it's about Columbia. Well, the thing is like, and I think people think I'm crazy for saying this, but like they never say it's Columbia. Like they never, they like, they, they have some of the soups they use in the colors they use for the, the, the Colombian flag colors. And like, but they never are specific. And it's also written by so Lin, Manuel is not Colombian. And also Shariece Castro Smith who wrote and developed it is Cuban.
2 (38m 20s):
What do we do? I have to take issue with, they do say that it's Columbia, but it said in the lyrics, I said, oh, okay. I mean, but it's certainly not referenced like how many times Mexico is referenced cocoa. And I did have that thought like, well, Lin, Manuel Miranda is not collided, but the, but the music is really good. Music is brilliant. And I also think it's a huge step in the right direction. I just, I like wanted to love it more is one of those things. And that's a thing. And also I actually loved west side story. I didn't see it yet. See it, and let's have a talk about it.
2 (39m 1s):
I loved it. And people think also I'm insane for that. I was like the acting in west side fucking story is like, it's like a masterclass in this shit. Everyone, every single character I've heard that. I, I really haven't heard too many people not liking it. You know, people have find the musical very problematic and mama mama. And of course, of course everything is problematic. Like everything. Okay. Everything is so problematic. I know I just, yesterday saw the news that Pamela Anderson is going to be Roxie Hart and I you're making the same face that I made.
2 (39m 42s):
And then I saw today on Twitter people saying like, Hey, you know, this is a person who was recently publicly humiliate re humiliated after what re what she originally suffered, which is tantamount to, I guess it's the same it's revenge porn. Yeah. Let's give her this. And also Chicago has always cast stunt done stunt casting. That's that's Erika Jayne. The real Housewives of Beverly Hills was the last person who party. I'm not getting you. Oh my God. Yeah, no, I, I, I think it says, yeah. And also you're right.
2 (40m 22s):
It's like, why not? Like why don't we might as well just like, let her have it. And also she couldn't be fucking good. I don't know from this lady, it could be great. And also like it's Chicago, it's not Shakespeare. Right? Public. I have such a fear. It's funny Shakespeare at the public story. You do well, you might have to tell it cause we might have no interviews today. That's right. We can talk anyway. So I love the Hamilton song, wait for it, which is Aaron Burr's song. And he's talking about his family. And anyway, I just wanted to hate it so much.
2 (41m 4s):
Gina. I wanted to like be the one person that was like, this is garbage and this is, I really wanted that. And then when I saw it, I was weeping openly. And the people next to me were like, cause they had seen it. Everyone's seen it a million times. Right. So people who go to the LA show have seen it like on Broadway or like the Disney plus online situation. I didn't see shit. It was my first experience. And I was like, this is the greatest thing that ever was ever made. It's just, okay, I'm going to have to watch it. I I've been a hater for no good reason. And I should probably watch it. I think the thing that was off putting to me initially is like how much people liked it and how much like, I mean, just like older, white people, I just thought, okay, well you're really excited to hear rapping in this anachronistic way, but I, I think many, many people who I respect greatly think it's one of the best pieces of I did.
2 (42m 8s):
And I also just think like, you're right. Like I think it's all a combo platter, like super, super, super, super white people. Love it. And also, and all people love it too. Right. I mean, girl, I don't know. I just feel like, yeah, that was, it was, it was brilliant. So like on my spare time, like I listened to the soundtrack and I never thought I would do that. It's a very motivating, like I oh, okay. And also like if it's even one 18 super true to history, which I think it is super true in a way, then I've learned more than I ever have about his American history. So like, oh my God.
2 (42m 49s):
That's that is, I believe that I learned what kind of learner I am when I was in ninth grade. Yeah. Ninth grade. I took a very hard history class. It was honors world civilization. Oh my God. I remember that class. I took the same class and got exams were oral. What? So the exams were oral. So basically you had to say the hits, the broad points of the history of civilization from beginning to now.
2 (43m 32s):
Sounds very scary. It wasn't at all. Oh, I memorized it like a monologue and I freaking learned the history of world civilization that way. And it was news to me that I could have read that textbook a million times. I could have studied flashcards. So the cows came home. I would net I got a perfect score on this exam. And it's because I learn kinesthetically. Yeah. I need to have a story and I need to be involved with yes. I mean to the one number one way I learn is teaching others. And, and the funny, because I, I hate teaching. I hate teaching my husband.
2 (44m 13s):
That's a very, I should say I hate teaching my husband, but like teaching people that, that don't make me insane. I, I learn it. Like I remember I was like the best trainer at my hostess job because I loved it. I was like, oh, Hey one, you get to train people how to do it the way you like it to be done. And also you get to relearn it. And also to refresher, I loved being the trainer. I was like, I will do the training. I will do the training. Interesting. Very interesting. Okay. So what is your story about what'd you say you had a story about, oh, oh, oh, oh shit.
2 (44m 53s):
We are old. What the fuck it was about? I, all I keep thinking of is Charleston fucking shoe, but I told that story, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute on it. Oh my God. We'd have to replay the fucking tape. Yo to little oh, oh Hamilton. Before we were talking about what was the first thing we were talking about. And I looked and I said it was when I was doing, see, we were distracted. We were both checking our emails, the email, when you, right. Well, anyway, I have a lot of shame stories, so it could be any kind of same story. So it was, oh, I said Monica times.
2 (45m 34s):
No, it was w it had something to do with like acting or Hamilton or I had a no, or, oh God. Or maybe you thought maybe it was maybe when I started talking about in content, maybe you said you had a story about Hamilton. No. And console, what side story? The acting all it. Well, I will tell you that, like, there is something about obviously the pandemic that has reignited my absolute awe for performers, that nail shit. Like I absolute all I I'm like, especially people that can sing and dance and act at the same time.
2 (46m 15s):
I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? I don't give a shit. So, oh. And the other thing that I was going to say about Hamilton was in the audience. People are like, like poo-pooing the LA production. They're like critiquing it at, at, at the, I was gonna say halftime at intermission. They're like talking shit about it. And I just said, the ladies next to me, because look, they've become so nitpicky because they've seen it for a thousand times in every different place and all that. And I'm like, I just turned to them. I was sitting by myself, she got me a solo ticket because they couldn't get tickets together with her sister and whatever. And the two ladies had clearly seen it. And the guy over here had been like, seen it like a million times.
2 (46m 57s):
And they were like talking to each other about like, oh, it's not that, you know, th this, the Hamilton's not that strong. And this is, and I said to me, I said to myself, and then I said to them, I said, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Can you do that? Let me just tell you something. Our fat ass is sitting over here. These people are throwing chairs around on stage also while singing and while remembering Lear rap lyrics, like shut up. Yeah. Shut up. Oh, by the way. So what's, how are you your rewatch of drag race? Okay. Much better. So, so I think at the time I, I obviously was youngers.
2 (47m 38s):
What were unseasoned? What 13, 18. I don't know. I think it's 13, which I'm crazy. So at the time, when I first watched the first season, whatever year that was in, I did not have any appreciation for healing of any kind. And I also didn't. I was so entrenched in my little world in Los Angeles that like I thought I saw drag race as a gag. Right. It was all a gag. A RuPaul was a gag. I didn't take it seriously. I was like super at 20 in my late twenties, early thirties. And it's really good. And it's also really, I'm not, so, yeah.
2 (48m 18s):
Right. I'm not so interested in the drama. Right. I'm interested in the artistry of the whole thing and how they create the costumes and the characters. And this time watching it, I'm like, oh, these people are brilliant. They're, they're brave and brilliant humans that are doing a really brave thing come that has come out of the need to sort of the, the revolutionary act of not wanting to shrink. Right. Of like gonna kill themselves if they don't do this. And I have to say, like, I only rewatched the first half of the first season, because then I got hooked into this Brazilian crime drama, which is a documentary about fucking crazy shit in Brazil.
2 (49m 3s):
Brazil is a terrible, I could never live in Brazil, but anyway, so, so drag race. Now I have such a new found respect for the performers. And also as, as a revolutionary drag, as a revolutionary act of self-preservation yes, yes. Agreed. And if you want to skip to the good stuff you could skip to season five, season five has, I'm sending myself a cast, quite a cast. And, and as time goes on, not only does the show get better because it has a bigger budget, but also Ru Paul is honing in on what he's, it's actually very, it reminded me a lot of your understanding of the meaning of our podcast as time has gone by.
2 (49m 51s):
And you've been saying for a long time, it's a service we're doing and it's offering healing to people. I think we're Paul figure that out, you know, throughout the course of, and he's, he leans much more heavily into people because almost everybody who is on there has been traumatized, abused, kicked out of their house. All the shit. Parents don't know that they're on drag race. Parents don't know that they do drag P they think it's. Yeah. So I think you'll really like that aspect of it. If you, you know, if you, if you like it enough to stick with it. And I also just think that I, there it is impossible. This is the conundrum of life.
2 (50m 32s):
It's impossible to not be a self-centered asshole when you're in your twenties and thirties or late thirties. Right. Right. Right. And so I look back at some of the shit I did and said, and thought about other people and their cultures and their, and I thought, oh my God, how dare I? I was, I, I was not, look, I'm not saying an awful person, but really the audacity of youth to be like, yeah, you're not cool. Or you, you, this doesn't benefit me in any way. So I'm not going to pay it any mind. In fact, I'm going to shit talk. It just, I mean, it's summed up with my John C. Riley story of never having seen Punchdrunk glove and talking shit about it to the star or no, not punch drunk, love to the star of boogie nights, the audacity of, of, of, of my youth and trauma and whatever to lie.
2 (51m 29s):
So blatantly and do it and lie about a mean thing. What are you, my take on that story has always been, you felt so less than yeah. With him. Yeah. That you, that you, which is not typical for you, that you, that you found a way to make him feel less than you. Oh yeah. It's not typical, but I do it. I do it with my husband all the time, which is like, if I'm, I'm now going through, I'm doing all this deep, deep trauma work in therapy and it's, and I'm also gonna start, I'm going to do an MDM age journey on it. So, so, but I'm doing all this stuff is coming up.
2 (52m 10s):
And I w when I am it's, so you've said it I've said it hurt people, hurt people, but it's very more specific than that. What happens to me is I sense it. I say the same thing when my husband hurts my feelings and it's really not my husband, it's, my feelings are hurt because I'm going through trauma, we're in a pandemic. And we live in a S in an end-stage capitalism. Like that's what's going on, but my husband is the trigger. And I will literally say things like I'm going to leave and not come back. And it is because I want to leave my trauma. I want to leave this shit show and go somewhere where I don't have to look at my trauma.
2 (52m 52s):
And I mean, that's exactly what I want to do. And so we have to, but that's what I do with John C. Riley. It's like, I, I'm not enough. I hate myself. And so I'm wanting to destroy you the way I feel destroyed. Literally. Yeah. It, it comes up so fucked up. I saw on the media about watching Tinder swindler.
2 (53m 34s):
Did you watch it? Yes. Okay. What it comes down to ladies and gentlemen is a study in why people hate women. It's really sad. It's like, really? But, you know, he targets women who are wanting love. Is this a documentary or a fictional documentary? Okay. And there might be a reenactments, but it's a documentary about eight, eight guy who Swindells women. But what you, what I was left with was okay. He picks on women who want love, who also want a man who is not broke and not, they don't have to pay his phone bill.
2 (54m 16s):
Right. Cause that's the experience of a lot of us. So when he, of course, when he, this swindler presents himself as, as rich as hell, that doesn't hurt. But then what you get is the backlash of people saying, well, that bitch was a gold Digger. She deserved to be swindled. So they got a huge backlash for being victims of this guy. It's horrific because if you weren't a gold Digger, then you wouldn't. So it comes down to, if you want to look at it as I couldn't have pure fun with it, because it was at the expense of women looking for love, and then being blamed as the victim, as a gold Dick. It's like, it's like sexism on task plus sexism on top of sexism.
2 (54m 57s):
And I though it didn't raise me. Maybe I'm not going to watch it. Not fun is what I'm saying. Maybe if it was a woman swindling, the men, I think that would have been a better, more, anti-Trump kind of a situation. But like what you're getting is a guy who's literally gaslighting women. And, and for, for, for, you know, I don't know, it's a five-hour situation. I want to watch a documentary called grinder finder, or they just follow guys having their random hookups. What I'm interested to know about that is people, I guess it's not just men, but people who pursue only the hookup on these apps is this satisfying.
2 (55m 44s):
I mean, is it like, yeah, I met this person. We had sex. I never saw them again. It was great. Or, or is there any bit of it? That's you know what I mean? Oh, I know what you mean. It doesn't work. Doesn't work. Does it feel good? I mean, what I'm led to believe about men, sexuality is this is ideal for them, you know, just a nameless, anonymous sex with no, I think it comes down to like what the intention is behind it. But like, I just, you know, whenever people talk about polyamory or, and this, this is different than just a hookup, I'm not comparing polyamory to just hook up culture.
2 (56m 26s):
But what I am saying is it a lifestyle that is different from mine that I don't understand whenever I think about engaging in behavior like that, whether it's having multiple partners or just had gone for the sex, what I end up with is depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation for myself. That's what I'm saying. Like, if you can do it without those things, I'm like, you go motherfuckers. But for me, I'm like, I don't see how this leads anywhere, but where I was at the age of 29, which was, yeah. And you know, then there's an argument to be made for, like, if you are in your twenties, you were going to do this one way or the other, you know, you're going to have these unsatisfying heartbreaking relationships one way or the other, maybe the advantage of doing it through these apps is that you have a little bit more data.
2 (57m 16s):
I mean, in the olden days, if you would just meet somebody and it was a one night stand and all you had was their Pedro, a number like that. That's all you had. That's all the information you had to go on this way. You can, which I've heard. It turns into a, a bad thing too. Like when people start stocking and they can't stop themselves from cyber-stalking like their one night stand their hookup. It's a double-edged sword. That would be me. I would be in jail if it were, if it were now I would be in jail for cyber-stalking like the only reason I'm not in jail for cyber-stalking is because we didn't have that because you were born in 1975.
2 (57m 57s):
Yeah. But I told you about the phone calls I made, right? No. Oh yes. When you called January. I think when the 85 times my boss was like, what? So that's probably a crime that's talking. So I am grateful that my, my anti-depressant has killed my sex drive in some ways. I'm also grateful to be married in some ways, like, look, do I miss the excitement of the chase of the, the, the, that, that butterflies in the stomach. I miss that, but I have to be honest, like the data for me, the evidence shows it never went in the right direction.
2 (58m 37s):
Like, no. And when you, and when your mind is all so consumed, and it is a nice feeling in a way, but when your mind is all so consumed by falling in love, everything else falls apart, you know what I mean? Like you stop pursuing your career, you stop pursuing like your other life goals. They had any kind of self care goes right out the window for me. And, you know, I'm and I did I ever tell you the story about the famous person who shall remain nameless? That I was in a, met in a, in a group setting that the trellis climbing incident. Okay. Okay. This is, this is fantastic. They needed to make a true crime about this. There's a woman who is who I'm not friends with in any way, but met, randomly and said we were, I was her, this is in I in 2000.
2 (59m 23s):
And like, I dunno, I dunno. I met her in Chicago and this was like, once I started to get better in my brain about that mental health stuff. We were, I was talking about how I was so dysfunctional in my relationships with men and she's like, oh, you think you're just functional? And this is a gorgeous, stunning lady that you're like, no problem. She's got no problem. She's like, you think that's just functional? I was like, oh God. Oh God. And she said, I was married before. And two, this guy who was a player and I was like, okay. And she's like, and I, I just was obsessed with him. And I knew, I knew that he was cheating and he admitted it.
2 (1h 0m 4s):
And so then he said he was gonna stop. And then I got pregnant. She says, and I got pregnant. And I had this feeling. He was still cheating, but he kept saying he wasn't right. So she's pregnant. And she, I don't know how many months pregnant. And she's like, he just kept, I just had that, this crazy feeling. And of course it was like, you know, he would tell me I was crazy. It was a whole gaslighting situation. But anyway, so she, in the middle of the night, he was on a business trip and in the middle of the night, she's like, I fucking have to know. I ha she's pregnant. I have to know she goes to his office. Cause that's where he kept it somewhere else in, in the city, not in their home. He, she knew that there was going to be information in the office, but she couldn't get it.
2 (1h 0m 48s):
Right. She fucking climbs a trellis, pregnant, a trellis, like a trellis, pregnant endangering her life, her baby's life, a criminal, whatever trespassing, even though some husband climbs breaks into his office with like punches, like puts a, a towel around her hand, breaks it breaks office and go through stuff. He's cheating. She finds all kinds of data on his. And she thought to herself, that's when I, she said, that's when I hit bought my bottle and she's sitting there like kind of bloodied.
2 (1h 1m 28s):
Cause it didn't work all the way to cover her hand bloodied with the evidence she was. Right. Of course. And I think, remind it reminded me of something that an ex of mine had said, when I went, go snooping through his phone, Dave, who then died, who that's, you know, my, my ex and I was snooping through it. It wasn't even really an ex, but he is stupid snooping through his phone. And he goes, look, if you need to Snoop, you're going to find something you don't want to see if you, if that instinct in you, is there. Yeah, it was right. He was absolutely right. I found all kinds of stuff that I didn't want to didn't want to say.
2 (1h 2m 10s):
So these are these stories that I'm like, oh my God, it doesn't matter what you look like. It doesn't matter. And my heart breaks for that Chloe Kardashians and her fucking, except at the same time, I'm like, okay, but you keep picking these guys. You keep picking these people who absolutely will 1000%, never, never, never not cheat on you. What are you going to do differently? And her answer so far is I'm going to get more plastic surgery. I'm going to diet more. I'm going to exercise. I mean, she has a whole show called revenge body. That is disgusting. That your whole reason for making your body into a certain way is to get revenge on somebody.
2 (1h 2m 55s):
Like, what are we doing? It's gone all the way left. You want to know even more fucking left. I met someone who was a fucking contestant on that show or like, cool, really? Oh, I actually, I didn't realize it was a shit contest show. They had like a, and she was so fucking crazy. I I've never met a crazier human being in my life. Like wow, never met a crazier human being in my life. And I have treated all levels of crazy. She was the craziest. But anyway, so yeah, you're right. It is the lengths weak, like using our bodies as a weapon, using our bodies, hurting our bodies. It is. And it's one of those things where even if we sat down, you know, Chloe, you, if you ever listened to the show, you're welcome to come on.
2 (1h 3m 41s):
But even if we sat down and said, all the things you will, people do not change until they are a, in enough pain to change or be angry enough to change. It has to come from within. So like, I'm not sure any amount of intervention with these people. And that's what this woman said. And I know it to be true for me until my dad died. And I was stripped of all resources. Was I able to see that my previous behavior in relationships, especially with men was toxic and killing me and not nice to them either. But it took, it took that it took everything being stripped from me too, to even make any kind of small change.
2 (1h 4m 26s):
So like, I'm not sure it's so it's such a hard job to try to help someone change because, because they have to do it on the, and so encoded. And because for me, I had, I had to walk such a distance to figure out that the problem was me. I had to try, I had to exhaust every other possibility of who else I could blame. I had to chalk my behavior up to absolutely anything, but what it was, which is I'm recapitulating the same situation that I was literally in coded to, to, to look for B because I, you know, had a father who rejected me, like, yeah.
2 (1h 5m 13s):
And, and, and, and, and it surprised, I think her father rejected, there's all this stuff about who is her father. And if it's, yeah. I mean, magic people thinking in a funny way that a, an accused double murderer, who is people, you know, who has a plethora of problems and his own trauma is your fucking unknown father. Fuck, that's his claim to fame. It's not right. So here's what I wish. I wish that we all find that in ourselves, that that point without so much pain, but it usually comes with pain to say, oh shit, I don't want to climb any more trellises.
2 (1h 5m 55s):
I just don't want to risk my life. And my unborn child's life or whatever was risk, whatever the risk is to, to try to, to get this love or this, what I think is going to be the fix for my internal whole, you know, like, I, I wish for us that we would do it in a way we could find that sort of, we could make the realization without having to go through so much heartache, but maybe it takes what it fucking takes. And it takes what it takes. I wish it was different, but a, because somebody could tell you all of these things, a future you could come to, to yourself at 20 and tell you these things.
2 (1h 6m 38s):
And you might still not believe them because you have to, you know, a lot of experiences you just have to have and told me, stop doing this to yourself. Older women that I was friends with were like, this guy doesn't love you. Like you, like, this is not what you think it is. I didn't get, I didn't pay him any mind. Yeah. Because it's the same thing. Like with theater school, like, yeah. But I'm the exception for me. It's different. You, that's fine for you to say for other people, but for me, it's different. Yeah. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends.
2 (1h 7m 23s):
I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina
Intro: Crypto bros, missing the great economic bubbles of the early 2000s. We may as well have cotton candy furniture, Severance on Apple TV, Bad Vegan.
Let Me Run This By You: Stage Moms, kindergarten theatre.
Interview: We talk to Joe Basile about Long Island accents, NYU Tisch, Bradley Walker, Ensemble Studio Theatre, Liz Lerman's Critical Response Process, Mary Zimmerman's Metamorphoses, the Neo-Futurists Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind (The Infinite Wrench), perfectionism, Roundabout Theatre Company, A Bright Room Called Day, Suzan Lori Parks, Go Humphrey, sock puppet Showgirls, keeping the thread of community after college ends.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
3 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (32s):
Okay. I'm getting, I'm getting it together. I, Yeah, I woke up with this really interesting idea that I wanted to run by you, which was, cause I was really tired when I woke up and I thought, okay, everyone's tired when they wake up. And then I thought, well, and they always say like, Americans, you know, never get enough sleep. We're always tired. But like nobody ever investigates why really? Why that is that our system is really fucked up. So like, I don't know. I just was like, yeah, we always do all these like expos A's on like sleep or wellness. Right? Like Americans are the fattest and the most unhealthy. And I'm only speaking about Americans because that's where we live. I don't know shit about Madrid.
2 (1m 13s):
You know, I'm sure they're they have their own plethora of fucking problems. But I'm just saying like, we don't actually do the work to like, figure out what is wrong. We're just like, Americans are, this Americans are that nobody's getting enough sleep. And like, there's all these, you know, sort of headlines. Right. And we're not just like, well, why is nobody getting enough sleep? Like what is actually happening? So that was my grand thought upon waking up was like, yeah, like, I don't know. We just never dig deep in this case. We're not big on digging.
4 (1m 46s):
Probably not. I mean, I think our lifestyle overall is pretty unhealthy and it's because of our economic model.
2 (1m 58s):
What I was gonna say, it all boils down to see the thing is the more you talk to people, the more I do the angrier I get, especially like in my office, like slash co-working, like I gravitate towards the ladies and a lot of ladies of color. And we end up sitting around talking about how like capitalism and systematic racism and sexism are all tied together and how, and by the end, we're just so angry. We're like, okay, what can we do? And we're like, okay, well we need to stop putting money in the pockets of this old white man who owns the coworking. But like we have nowhere else to go. So we're like, now we're screwed. So anyway, it's interesting. It's like it all, every conversation I have of meaning with you or with my cousin and it all boils down to the same thing.
2 (2m 43s):
And then you end up thinking, I ended up thinking the really, the only way is mass extinction and starting over with a new species, fresh slate, fresh or revolution, right. Or some kind of bloody revolution, it's going to be bloody because you know, the, the, the, the people in power aren't going to let go as we see. So like, we're not, it's not good is all, but I don't feel necessarily like, and maybe it's because I took MTMA, but like, I don't necessarily feel terrible about it. I feel just like, oh yeah, like we're, we're headed towards this way, unless something drastic happens. And I'm not sure that's a terrible thing. Now I don't have children.
2 (3m 23s):
So I might feel totally different about my children and my children's children and their children, but I just don't, that's not my frame of mind. So anyway, that's what I was thinking as I was so tired, waking up.
4 (3m 35s):
Is there any world in which you and the other women in coworking can just put your, just rent and office?
2 (3m 44s):
So we're starting to organize to like, be like, okay, you know, like who would want to go in on a lease, you know? But the thing is, it's so interesting. It's like, well, maybe it's LA, but it's also the world. Like, people don't really trust it. Like we don't really know each other that well yet. So we'd have to like do credit checks and thank God. My credit is good. Thank God. Now it was terrible. But all this to say is that like also LA so transitory that people are like in and out and, and like my, you know, travel. It's just so it's such a weird existence, but we are talking and there's a guy, a black dude. Who's also like my financial guru guy who like, who works at co-working.
2 (4m 28s):
I met here, he's a mortgage guy. And he's just been like, talking to me all about fucking crypto bros and like how the crypto bros are like, he's like, it is insane. Now, Gina, did you know, now I'm just learning about this world. And he's like, it's all, make-believe basically we live in the matrix and that fucking, there is something called the virtual real estate. Did you know this? Okay, you can purchase virtual squares of real estate, like Snoop Dogg's house, like, like, and people are doing it. And the people who are, it's like a status thing and it's expensive. And the people who are becoming billionaires are the people who run the apps.
2 (5m 9s):
Right. Are the people who created the fucking program. We are in the matrix. And I was like, wait, what? And he showed me the site where you can buy any town. If you looked into your town, people are doing it. It is, it is consumerism mixed with people are buying things that don't exist.
4 (5m 29s):
Okay. Yeah. I feel like this is what happens when people with an unchecked power and privilege, it's like, okay, well, like literally we're just making it up. Let's just have cotton candy, be our furniture now. Like it's. So I tried to get into Bitcoin.
2 (5m 50s):
Oh yeah.
4 (5m 51s):
Like about five years ago, somebody that I went to high school with is rich from Bitcoin. And, and she was like one of the founders of one of these companies. And so the first problem I have is you shouldn't invest in anything that you don't understand. Right. So I tried to read about it and I'm just like, but what, I just kept reading and being like, yeah, but what is it? Right. You know, what's an NFT.
2 (6m 20s):
Oh my God. The NFTs. Oh my God. And his name is Lamont and I love him. And he was trying to teach me about those. And I was like, Lamont. I have to take some kind of drug to understand what you're saying. I don't,
4 (6m 31s):
I have, I, you know, I've read articles. I've had people explain it to me. I mean, I think what it is, is I do know what it is, but I'm just like, that can't be what people are spending that be that,
2 (6m 43s):
Yeah, because we're not stupid people. Like we can understand concepts of things.
4 (6m 47s):
The thing that got me off of cryptocurrency and, and FTS and all that is that it's so bad for the environment, blockchain, the amount of energy that's required to power blockchain is just like so destructive.
2 (7m 3s):
Okay. So this leads me to, so Lamont was like, you know, what's going on in the coworking row storage room. And I'm like, what? And of course me, I'm like, are there, is there like a torture chamber? That's why Was like, no, he's like one of the side businesses of the CEO of this place is to host these crypto machines that, that it's like credit card terminals, but for crypto. And so all the, all the crypto exchanges that go on need checks and balances, God, he's such a good teacher. He actually explained it to me. He's like, look, you, when you do a crypto exchange with somebody that has to be checked or else, how do you know you're actually getting shit, which is all like theoretical anyway.
2 (7m 47s):
But he's like, so then you have to create these machines that check the other machines. And those are some of those. And you get paid. It's just like having credit card terminals, right? It's like selling credit cards. You know, people that sell credit card terminals, like they make money off the, the things, the exchanges, the, the transactions, right? Transaction fees. It's like 10, 10 cents of whatever or something 4 cents. So we got machines in the fucking co-working that have nothing to do with coworking. And I re one day it was hotter than fuck over here. They take a lot of energy and Lamont Lamont goes to the guy, the crypto bro. Who's also the CEO of this coworking space who really wants to just be the crypto, bro.
2 (8m 27s):
He's like, listen, bro. Like, something's going to melt down. You got to have something to cool. These machines. I mean, it's a fucking disaster waiting to happen. We're all going to burn up because this motherfucker wants to do crypto. He's not even dude. He's just doing the terminals. They're called terminals. No wonder my motherfucking internet doesn't work. How much juice do these motherfuckers take? I got pissed. I got Lamont. And I got pissed. I said and Lamont so funny. He goes, yeah, I don't mind all this like virtual crypto shit, but I need some actual motherfucking green tee up in here. You haven't had green tea up in here for days.
4 (9m 6s):
This is what I'm going to say. This is a, like, when you all of this, when all of this starts swirling in my head and it's all overwhelming, I just go, oh, like, okay. But that's not for me. Like this whole ether, a world that's cotton candy furniture. Like that's not for me. I have to stick with what I know. I like go stick with your, with, with what's in your CTA, what's in your wheelhouse.
2 (9m 30s):
Right. She taught us. Catherine taught us that, right?
4 (9m 33s):
No, it was a
2 (9m 35s):
Catherine's job. Oh,
4 (9m 38s):
Josh. Yeah. Yeah. He was talking about, the programs are called the, your concentration is called dementia anyway, like in the same way that, you know, people create art that other people criticize. And then you say, well, it's not for you. Like, I just know that none of that is for me. So, you know, because here's the thing we Erin and I have had near misses on like a bunch of bubbles. Right? We lived in California, we lived in the bay area during the, what they used to call the.com. And all of our friends had these hundred thousand dollars a year jobs and worked at Google and places and got Friday night, beer parties and lunch catered, whatever, every single day.
4 (10m 23s):
And we were just like, oh my God, we're so dumb. We can't, we don't know how to work in tech. We don't, we can't get to me take advantage of this opportunity. Then it was the housing market. And in 2004, it's like, wow, you could get a house. Like we could buy a house. Somebody would give us a mortgage. When we have no money in so much debt, we thought we should buy a house. We looked into buying a house that didn't work out. That turned out to be a good thing. I think the crypto thing is another, like, I'm not saying it's a bubble. Although it probably is. Cause we have to be in a bubble. But I'm saying like, I put myself at ease about not being able to really grasp these things by just saying like, oh, that's not for me.
4 (11m 10s):
That's not what I'm, that's not what I'm really like here on this planet to eat, to do
2 (11m 16s):
It interests me. And also, yeah, it's so bad for the environment. And also I just don't give a fuck. Also give me my fuck. Oh, we haven't had creamer up in this bitch for like, and I started, I was like, I don't give a fuck what you do here, but I need creamer. So if you don't like it and they finally got it, you bet your ass when Lamont and I were like, okay, green tea, we need it. And they got it. Cause we were like, fuck you. Like we're not stupid. And then the other thing that I wanted to say about the whole Bitcoin, oh the minimalist movement that these, these kids that are in their thirties are doing okay, listen to this. This is insane.
2 (11m 56s):
So kids are having and kids. Yeah. They're like 30, right? They're buying Teslas. Okay. But great. They buy a Tesla. Teslas are now equipped with so much shit that you can basically live in it. As long as you have a charging, they fucking park their shit and their parents' house. I'm not kidding you. So a lot of them were living with their parents. Right. And they were like, well, this fucking sucks, but they're saving all this money. Right. Cause it's so expensive. So there's sock away, their money. They buy a Tesla, they park the Tesla in their parents' fucking driveway. And they do experiments where they plug in and then they see if they can live in it. Okay. This is like a real thing.
2 (12m 37s):
Right? So it has everything you need except a shower and the bed, or like you, your seats go down. It's actually an, a toilet shower and a toilet. And then they get, so they have a Tesla,
4 (12m 48s):
They get,
2 (12m 49s):
They get, they get, they get a gym membership. Okay. So they had a Tesla and a gym membership and that's all they need. And they fucking don't own shit except crypto currency in their Tesla and fucking go around to different cities. And there's like all these Airbnb hacks and, and rental car hacks that if they travel, they travel around the country. Like the guy who is the CEO of this place, doesn't live here. He lives kind of an Austin kind of here is a test. It is the weirdest thing.
4 (13m 22s):
Okay. Well, when the Russians send nuclear missiles and we ended up having hand to hand combat with the Chinese or whatever, well, these fighting people gonna to do nothing.
2 (13m 32s):
I don't know how to do nothing. There'll be dead. No, no. But you and I are scrappy. Like we could figure it out. They're dead. And that's fine.
4 (13m 41s):
I always think of, I just said, I think like people used to hunt, you know, like w w where if our world is predicated on so much pretend and like, and like also just like this very thin margin of, well, it's all fine and good until the power grid goes out. It's all fine. And good until like, suddenly for whatever reason, there is just no internet,
2 (14m 3s):
Like, or they get hacked. Right,
4 (14m 6s):
Right. Yeah. It's all fine. And good until like everything that we put our hope hopes and dreams and faith into just doesn't work one day, because that's what happens with machines is they just, sometimes they write
2 (14m 17s):
And Lamont was saying, and I kind of agree with him that like, what he thinks is happening. So frantically the government is scrambling to get into crypto. Right. Frantically our government is like, we're going to have a fucking stake in this. So what he thinks is going to happen and like agree with him is that they're going to figure out a way to sabotage the crypto system and say, we, we now run the cryptosystem. He's like, I know it's a conspiracy theory, that kind of thing. But of course it's money. Right. So they're going to say, okay, okay. Like you guys are going to get screwed because someone's going to hack, you, let the government take over, we'll run crypto. And then of course,
4 (14m 54s):
Which takes away the main draw of crypto, which is that it's this currency that cannot be traced to everything. So the second there's any type of regulation that, that, and it's like, well, you might as well just be talking about dollars. Right. Because you know,
2 (15m 9s):
That's what they're going to do. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. We'll probably be dead, but that's okay.
4 (15m 14s):
Yeah. We'll probably be done. I'm watching this television show called severance. Oh,
2 (15m 19s):
Everybody loves severance.
4 (15m 21s):
Wow. Wow. Wow. It's it's woo. It's really something else. But what I love about it is it's kind of hard to explain, so I won't try to explain it, but there's suffice it to say the company that these people work for, the job that they do is they sit at these computer terminals and they there's just a screen full of numbers. And they have to put these digits into the correct bins at the bottom.
2 (15m 53s):
Okay.
4 (15m 54s):
Based on their feeling about the numbers, like these numbers are scary and these numbers are half. Yeah. It's so weird. Right? When I, when I see them, they're putting the numbers into this little bins in the bottom and I go cut. This is like my daughters, you know, like educational games. She has to do something like this. Well, it gets to the end of the season. And the they've, all this little department has leveled. The there's all this pressure on getting a certain quota by the end of the quarter. And it's, we don't, we're not gonna make it and we're not gonna make it.
4 (16m 35s):
We're not gonna make it at the last minute. They make it. And what making it looks like for them is that a pixelated cartoon character comes on and says like, basically you leveled up. So really it, I dunno if this is the point that they're trying to make, but it really looks like they're just playing a video game.
2 (16m 58s):
This is insane. I love it. It's the same.
4 (17m 2s):
It's really, really good. And I, and I reached out to all of the actors on there and seeing if anybody wants to be on our show, I got one person who was like, oh, that sounds interesting. I'm like, is that a yes and no, I never, I never heard anything back from her, but yeah, listen, humans are designed to work. So when you don't have to literally like, grow your own food and cut down your own wood, you have to find something to do. That feels work, work ish. And I feel like a lot of our industries are kind of work adjacent
2 (17m 43s):
And like, and like a lot of sorting into bins. Yeah.
4 (17m 50s):
You
2 (17m 50s):
See fucking bad vegan.
4 (17m 55s):
No, I was wondering if I should watch it.
2 (17m 57s):
Okay. Watch it. And we'll talk about it because whoa. It is, the Myles was a very frustrated with this documentary based on,
4 (18m 9s):
Oh, it's a documentary. Oh, I thought it was a tele. I thought it was a fictional show.
2 (18m 13s):
Oh, it they'll make a fictional show out of it. But it's a documentary about a woman who started a vegan restaurant and so much more in New York city. And it comes down to what we always said. And I'll wait until you watch it. But I, it just reinforces what we always talk about, which is if you have an unfulfilled, inner need from childhood, that shit will play out. I could trace this, her whole demise, her whole demise. And it's a whole crazy ass fucking story about this woman. Her whole demise comes down to the fact that Alec Baldwin did not pick her to date. Okay. That's it.
2 (18m 53s):
Okay.
4 (18m 54s):
Completely plausible. I completely understand that.
5 (19m 1s):
Let me run this by you.
4 (19m 9s):
I know my son got this part in a movie. And so the thing we wanted to run by you is I, Hm. So many things I get, I get stage moms. I understand why stage moms is a thing. When my son started getting into acting, he was five years
2 (19m 35s):
Old. Yeah. It was really young.
4 (19m 37s):
And my thing was, I don't want to be a stage mom. I don't want to be a stage mom. I don't want to be a stage mum, which was reinforced by every time I've ever been on set. There's always at least one really out of control stage mom. And I think I told the story in the podcast before, but one time we, we were in a, he was doing Gotham that showed Bathum and there was like a gaggle of kids in this scene. And this one boy, I was just, you know, whatever. I was striking up a conversation with him and I said, oh, do you, do you really want to be an actor? And he said, no, my father makes me do this. I want to be at school.
4 (20m 17s):
And it was just so
2 (20m 19s):
Like,
4 (20m 19s):
God, and I met a lot of kids. This was back when he was doing all just all background stuff. I met a lot of that's where you find the most stage moms when the kids are like that, the stakes are just, couldn't be lower. Right. You know, they're just doing background, extra work, which is all just to say, though, I've had to be in dialogue with myself about what my aspirations are about working in film and television and my frustrated aspirations. And I, you know, I've had to just be constantly talking to myself about making sure that this is what he wants and not what I want. And in the classic thing that always happens is when he gets an audition, if he doesn't feel like doing it, it just, it becomes this thing.
4 (21m 8s):
And I always say, you don't have to be an actor. You don't have to have an agent, but if you're going to be an actor and you're going to have an agent, you have to do the audition.
2 (21m 18s):
That's true.
4 (21m 19s):
And you have to work at it and you have, you have to work hard at it. And that thing is actually really hard. And it takes a lot of work that we just kind of overcame this obstacle for the audition for this movie, because I made him put in maximum effort. Usually I don't usually, I'm just like, well, it's his career, you know, it's his life. If he doesn't want to work on it, why am I going to spend, you know, my whole time? But I'm really encouraged him to work on it. And he really did. And he did really well. And so now we're waiting to hear, you know, whether or not he's gotten it, but the first night that this was a thing, I couldn't sleep. I was awake. Like, I mean, part of it is thinking about the logistics.
4 (22m 1s):
Like how will I live in LA for a month when I have two other kids. Right. But the other part of it is just, what is this going to mean for him to, what's going to be what's next and what's next and what's next. And what's next. So I've talked a lot of shit about stage moms in the past. And I just want to say, if you're listening to this in your stage, mom, I get it. I get, I get, you know, because maybe this was your hope and dream, but also maybe just, you put a lot of effort into when you're the mom of the kid who wants to do this, it's so much work for the mom or the dad was the case may too much. It's, it's scheduling babysitters when you have other kids
2 (22m 43s):
Driving
4 (22m 44s):
Into the city for auditions paying for headshots every year, because they change so much every year communicating with doing the cell. I had to learn. This is actually how I learned how to do I moving because I had to, you know, work, learn how to edit his self-tapes and stuff like that. So, but have you encountered stage moms? Oh,
2 (23m 7s):
That's a great question. Yes. And I feel like I totally understand how moms and dads get and caretakers get to be that way. And I think also to remember for me is that it comes from this genuine usually place to want to help and protect your kid. And, and also, and then you mix that in with your own aspirations, which I would have to, if I had a child that I was shoveling around and also, yeah, I would encounter that. So I think I get it. And I also know that like when I worked at casting and at PR and I loved it, but they would occasionally be like moms that would bring in their kids or dads, but usually it's moms.
2 (23m 57s):
Right. Of course, who bring in their kids that were desperate to get the kid into the face of the casting directors. So they'd hang around. They didn't want to ingratiate themselves to casting at the audition. They'd come into the office and, and, you know, to their credit of my bosses, PR casting, they were lovely. Like they, but, but they also had work to do so. It was like, these kids are just sort of standing there smiling. And the mom is like pushing them and we all, it was very uncomfortable and it doesn't actually work like what works is being professional on set, doing a great job in the room, being a nice kid and being a nice parent, but it just feels like, and we know this from being actors.
2 (24m 45s):
It just feels like you have to like, sort of ingratiate and push yourself into the faces of the people with power in order to get anywhere. So then there's like these really uncomfortable moments of like talking about nothing while we're trying to get work done in the office, especially like, yeah, they have a lot of work to do. So it was just, it was just very, and you'll see when we go to PR like it's all glass. So like, you can see what the casting directors are doing in the office. So you want to be in there because it looks really fun.
4 (25m 16s):
Right. And
2 (25m 18s):
Actors who are like, quote, special, get to go in there and say, hi, like I'm friends with the, with the casting directors is the, is the idea. I'm not saying I'm like someone is, and then they get to go. It's just like a really weird thing. And it's also, it's very hard to navigate and I get it too. We, we, we want to be liked and loved and picked and chosen. And it is a universal thing.
4 (25m 44s):
I want the same thing for our kids. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
2 (25m 48s):
I don't. I've had never had anyone that has been bonkers, you know, but maybe, yeah. I never, yeah, never.
4 (25m 55s):
Yeah. I think really they're bonkers behavior. I think actually, probably the kids are the ones who absorbed the brunt of it, which is, you know, and also it's really hard to teach a kid about acting because you're, as we've said many times, you're, you're trying to figure out how to play a character when you don't even know who you are. I mean, that's really true for a kid and trying to teach them, it's supposed to be it's. Yes. It's pretend, but you're supposed to be sincere and no, you're not the character, but yes, you have to be there. It's a lot of mental gymnastics,
2 (26m 32s):
Impossible. And like, if you don't know how to communicate that to a kid, let alone, the kid know how to do it. It's a mess. And then you're just, it's just kind of a crap shoot. Like, especially when you wouldn't see that were two and three years old.
4 (26m 47s):
Oh, see, now that I can't
2 (26m 51s):
Was like, yeah, some kids are, I mean, it's just to me, I thought it was amazing, but I also didn't have an agenda. I'm trying to get shit done. Like the directors and the producers on the, everyone is trying to get shit done in the room. And I have a kid doesn't, you know, whatever the kid is literally three years old. So like, I thought it was amazing, but I, they it's, it's a nightmare.
4 (27m 15s):
Yeah. Did I ever tell you the story of when I taught drama to kindergarten?
2 (27m 21s):
I know you did, but I don't know.
4 (27m 24s):
I had this job at this school called head Royce in the bay area. I got a job teaching after-school drama to kindergartners. It might've been my very first teaching thing. No, but it was early on and I hadn't taught, I certainly hadn't taught like my full-time teaching job that I eventually had at a middle school, but not having children and not having taught. I thought we were just going to do a play, you know, like They were going to memorize their lines. I seriously thought I seriously picked a play.
2 (28m 5s):
What was it? Do you remember? Was it like fucking, wouldn't it be funny if it was like, you know,
4 (28m 10s):
Romeo and Juliet
2 (28m 11s):
Steel Magnolias or something like just like totally amazing.
4 (28m 15s):
And it was age appropriate because it, it, it turned out to have whatever it was. I can't remember. But it was also a children's book, which I, oh, oh yeah. Oh, sorry. I adapted a children's book.
2 (28m 29s):
Oh my God. Okay.
4 (28m 32s):
And the entire time we were working on it, it never occurred to me that they couldn't memorize their lives. I just kept being like, well, maybe by next week, they'll know it. My next week they'll know it until it came time to do the performance and all the parents came and I shit, you not, it didn't occur to me until all the parents were walking in. Every single one of them had a video camera. This is before cell phones that, oh my God, they are expecting a show. And I guess I was too. And they don't know, we don't have a shell.
2 (29m 7s):
It look like my God, this is brilliant.
4 (29m 10s):
I got to the point for awhile. I was like doing the knee. I was the narrator. Right. And, and then they was supposed to be saying their lines, but then they would never say their lines. So then basically what it amounts to is I just read the entire book. Would
2 (29m 26s):
They do
4 (29m 27s):
Well, the kids just stood there. And the middle of it, when kid in the middle of my, and of course the more anxious and, and terrible, I felt like the more forced and forced, I must have looked crazy. I wish I could say videos. I bet I looked like a complete lunatic and in the middle of it as, and I'm also getting louder and louder. It's like, I would love to, I'm sure those parents are erased, taped over those tapes, but I would love to see just frantic me and I'm getting read By the time it was over, I just went to the headmaster's office.
4 (30m 16s):
And I was like, I did a terrible job. You should never hire me again. This was a complete disaster. And they were like, yeah, maybe this isn't your thing.
3 (30m 39s):
Today on the podcast, we were talking to Joe, the seal, Joe is an actor and a writer and a content creator and a former Neo futurist. He has got a going on and he is lovely and charming and personable and a marketing genius. He has his own company. Now. He is all that. And the bag of chips as the kids used to say five years ago. And I hope you really enjoy our conversation with Joseph.
4 (31m 21s):
You still have that fabulous smile.
7 (31m 27s):
You were so sweet. It's so good to see both. Oh my goodness.
4 (31m 31s):
What you, what you don't have. What I remember is big hair. Oh, Well, you're a handsome bald bald man. So you can play.
7 (31m 42s):
Oh, thank you. Go on. Go on.
4 (31m 45s):
I will. I will. I will. But I'll start by saying congratulations. JoBeth seal. You survived theater school.
7 (31m 51s):
I did.
4 (31m 52s):
Yes. And you survived it with us mostly with bod. You guys are graduated in the same year, I think.
2 (31m 58s):
Yeah.
7 (31m 59s):
Yeah, we did. Yeah. Do you remember that year? We were in the same section, Johnny.
2 (32m 4s):
Here's what I remember about you. We went to a Halloween party together with my roommate with a non theater school, like my best friend, Sasha, who Gina knows Sasha and Carsey. And we went to a freaking Halloween party in the suburbs and you had the best costume ever. It was a robot. And you remember any of this? You look,
7 (32m 24s):
Oh my God. I don't know
2 (32m 25s):
Brilliance.
8 (32m 27s):
It
7 (32m 27s):
Was like, I was a robot. Wow.
2 (32m 29s):
Like a whole situation. And it was like, we had the best time, but it was like, we didn't know anybody. It was like in the suburbs. It was my friend.
4 (32m 37s):
Did he make
2 (32m 38s):
That? Yeah, it was all made. It was so good. Anyway, that's what I remember. That's the main thing that I remember being like, oh my God. His costume. Brilliant. So anyway, I do remember. I mean, I remember, yeah. I mean, remember bits and pieces. I remember that, like I thought you were like super nice. And also, yeah, that we all just were trying to figure it out. Like nobody knew what the hell was going on.
7 (33m 7s):
Yeah, no, I remember when you joined our section, we were so excited that like someone new was going to like join and we all knew of you, but we didn't know. And I remember that year, you were just like a breath of fresh air. You were just so direct and funny. And you know, I think at that point we were just getting a little tired and you just brought a lot of really beautiful energy into our sections.
2 (33m 36s):
Oh, the other thing I want to say before I forget is that I, when I was doing research on you, like just to catch up on you and stuff, there's other people with your name that, that some, some before like wild, like one, one guy, like a couple like therapists, couple has Lisa and Joe have your name and, and are like infomercial kind of P anyway, I just thought it was hilarious. And then there's another actor.
7 (34m 3s):
Yes. There's another actor in what had actually happened one year. It was, I was put in the DePaul, the theater school, alumni newsletter that I was on six feet under and all of this stuff. So people started reaching out to me and it was the other job.
4 (34m 20s):
That's funny. That's funny. I wonder about those alumni. So it's just, I mean, I guess you've answered the question is somebody scouring the trains or whatever, looking for names that they
2 (34m 32s):
Used to be John Bridges. And then I think also people submit themselves, which is so, I mean, I get it, but it's also like, I don't have time for that. I mean, like, I mean, not that I'm doing anything that fancy, but like, I, there's something weird about being like, Hey John Bridges, can you put me in the alumni news? I don't know. I'd rather be
4 (34m 55s):
Except for like your, but that's what it is. Right. That's what you have to do. That's what it's all about the network. I mean, I haven't ever done it either, but
2 (35m 6s):
I mean, I did it when I had a solo show because I thought, okay, in Chicago, maybe people will come, so I have done it, but I, I just,
7 (35m 14s):
Yeah, for promo, I think it might be helpful in some instances, but
2 (35m 19s):
Whatever it is
4 (35m 22s):
Actually the beginning you're from long island
7 (35m 25s):
And you have
4 (35m 26s):
Zero long island accent. Was that very intentional?
7 (35m 30s):
Well, it's so funny. You mentioned that because I think that was such a big thing my first year. And it really kind of changed the way I speak, because I felt like I was a fast talking like long island kid. And my speech really slowed down that first and second year. Cause I was so conscious of it. So the, after that first year, I think, you know, yoga between yoga and all the voice and speech stuff, like I was like standing up straight and talking like standard American, like, you know, whatever that was that we learned.
4 (36m 5s):
Like you had to do that in your, not what, even when you weren't on stage.
7 (36m 10s):
I mean, that was, that was a thing I think back then, I didn't really understand the distinction. I felt like I, I, I had to speak that way on stage and then it just transferred over to my real life. Also, you know, looking back, I was like, oh, you know, I wish I would have been able to make the distinction in my real life that I don't have to speak like this, but it's hard to learn something and practice it. Like I couldn't just practice that in class. It would have just been too difficult, but I started speaking a lot slower just because I was really conscious of the all sounds I was making, like all the sounds and, and I, it was pretty thick. I don't know. I don't know if you all knew me back then, but it was, there were some words I had never heard pronounced.
4 (36m 52s):
Well, I don't recall you as, I mean, I was surprised to learn that you were from long island and looking at your history because yeah. It seemed, it seemed like you had erased it. So were you the only person from, from New York in your class?
7 (37m 10s):
No. There were a cup there. Ed Ryan was also from New York. Yeah, but he was from Scarsdale, I think. And then I w I might've been the only one from long island, at least in my class that I remember.
4 (37m 23s):
And did you have DePaul as your, I mean, is that, was that the school you wanted to go to or your safety?
7 (37m 30s):
Oh my God. I was all about NYU. I was all about it. And then even before I went to, you know, before I started applying for colleges, my senior year, I went to a summer program at NYU. And at the time there was something called musical theater, works conservatory. And I spent a whole summer doing like conservatory training and, you know, to earn college credit. And it was such a great program at the time too, because we took classes during the day. And then the evening we saw shows and did all this cultural stuff. So after that experience, I was, I just wanted to go to NYU and I just loved it. I loved the city and then I didn't get, I didn't get in.
7 (38m 16s):
And then I was deciding between DePaul and Emerson and I visited both schools. And when I went to visit DePaul, I know you all had Bradley Walker. And I stayed, he probably doesn't remember this, but I totally stayed with him in the dorms. And the other weird kind of quirky thing I remember was I, I went to his dorm room and he was eating dog food. Like he was eating out of a box
2 (38m 44s):
And wait,
7 (38m 45s):
Wait, yeah, hear me out here. So he's like, do you want some? And I was like, okay, sure. You know, peer pressure. So I ate the dog food, like out of the box, it was like dry dog food. And he's like, yeah, it's just, we like how it tastes and it's cheap. And then like, after he told me it was just like cereal and they just like, say like, they put this cereal in the dog food box anyway,
4 (39m 9s):
Like
7 (39m 11s):
Quirky things that I remember about that weekend.
2 (39m 15s):
So here's the thing as a 46 year old tired ass lady. I'm like, who the fuck has time to be switching foods into different modifiers. I can barely get my shoes on 18 year olds who are in college. Like the good quirky marketing. It reminds me of something they might've done. And say that movie with Janine Gruffalo and Ben Stiller, whatever that movie was that they did about gen X, whatever, like reminds me of something like, Hey, let's switch the food into the, but anyway. Okay. So was he nice to you?
7 (39m 54s):
Oh my God. He really sold me on the school and not, he wasn't trying to sell me on the school. He's like, this is where we do this. And he took me on a tour of the theater school and, you know, I loved that it was in an elementary school and I visited in June, which is like a beautiful time of being in Chicago. And I mean, after that experience, I was just completely sold and I, it was cool. Cause I went by myself like my mom, just let me just go to all these places to visit and like got off the, you know, I took the train, I took the L to the school and everything and, and it was, it was cool. I felt like it was a really good fit. So it worked out nicely.
4 (40m 33s):
You did a bunch of things though. After theater school, you moved back to New York and got very involved in theater. So tell us about that epoch.
7 (40m 42s):
Yeah, I mean, I think I did a couple of shows in Chicago and I had major FOMO of what was going on in New York and I felt like I was missing out. And I think, you know, I had audition for a lot of stuff in Chicago and I just didn't wasn't landing things. And then, you know, when I moved to New York, I wanted to focus more on directing and writing. And I did an intern. I did a couple of internships, but I did want to ensemble studio theater. And that was super helpful because as part of the internship, you were in an actor director writing lab and yeah, and it was, I think the first time I had been in a place where you can kind of cross over and do different things.
7 (41m 27s):
And also the, we had a, a lab director who really kind of just taught me, like how to like give feedback to myself and how to give feedback to others. Like the big thing that she would always ask is like, after we would present some kind of work, she would just say like, what do you need to know in order to move forward with the work? Like, what is important to you? And we really, you know, we had a small group and we really experimented within that. And then after the internship, some of us kind of like stuck together. And I mean, at the time too, there were, there were a ton of interns. There was like over 20 and they gave us the keys to the theater.
7 (42m 7s):
And we had like, there were a couple of theaters there. So we would do our shows like on the top floor of, of, of the theater there on 52nd street and, you know, hang out after and drink beer. And like, I mean, something that probably is not happening today, but it was, it was a really co like a good landing pad for me. So just to meet other people.
2 (42m 28s):
Okay. So if we take it back a little bit, like when you work, cause I'm curious about that. So like, you didn't have FOMO about LA, right? Like moving to LA when everyone moved to LA or did you like when you graduated from DePaul and I asked, because now you're here obviously in Southern California, but also because it sounds like New York to you based on you, the summer program you did and stuff was sort of the, like in your brain, like the utopia Mecca for actors, but you, so you felt a FOMO, but like showcase wise. Cause I love the good showcase story where you focused on New York, like, cause you did we, did we go to, no, we didn't go to New York, but we
7 (43m 7s):
Did know.
2 (43m 8s):
So how, how did you make the choice to go? Not to LA? Like how did that go down?
7 (43m 13s):
Yeah. I mean, we took a, that film class our last year with Gerard. I don't know if you remember him.
2 (43m 20s):
Fuck.
7 (43m 21s):
Yeah. We took a film class. Yeah. We all, we all did. I think that's what his name was and that
2 (43m 29s):
Class.
7 (43m 30s):
Yeah. We took a film class where we did a scene on camera and I, the it call experience was like horrific.
2 (43m 39s):
Oh, I remember it was bad for all of them.
7 (43m 43s):
I have like a little breakdown after, cause I was like, I don't, I just felt very, you know, self-conscious, I mean, we had spent like years doing theater and I never really looked at myself. And then I was not like a theater snob at all. Like I was willing to do anything. I would do voice or do film, but I just didn't feel comfortable with the camera at all. And I think by the last year or two, I really started to get more interested in like experimental theater and performance art. And I felt there was more of that in New York at the time or maybe I was just unaware of it in Chicago and I wanted to lean in that direction.
7 (44m 25s):
And that's another reason I kind of went to New York also.
2 (44m 28s):
Yeah.
7 (44m 29s):
Yeah. I wasn't seeing that as much. Like I remember there were some companies in Chicago that did some really beautiful pieces, like all the Mary Zimmerman pieces I loved. And I was like, Ugh, that was like, all those were like the Northwestern kids who were in those shows.
2 (44m 45s):
Oh, I remember what metamorphosis happened. And everyone was like, we all want it to be in metamorphosis. And none of us got in because she of course chose Northwestern kids because that's who she taught and that's where she went. Right. And so whatever.
7 (44m 59s):
Yeah. And I ended up seeing that in New York anyway, when it was there. So it was like anything like that would eventually go to New York to,
4 (45m 6s):
And you did a lot, you worked a lot in New York theater, you worked at roundabout and you, and you worked for the Neo futurists, which I love that. I mean, I, that show too much light makes the baby go blind, which is now called infinite infinite wrench, wrenches that it's called.
7 (45m 23s):
Yeah.
4 (45m 24s):
I love that show. Tell me everything about being a part of that.
7 (45m 28s):
Yeah. You know, at that I first saw that show in Chicago when I was like right outside of, no, I saw my first year when I was 17 and then someone from DePaul had like a friend of mine had brought me to it and I, I loved it and then kind of forgot about it. And then I auditioned in Chicago for it when I was 21 and I was just not ready for it. And then when I moved to New York, I was there for maybe two or three years. I discovered that they had had started the show there. And I mean, that really kind of shifted so much for me. I, well, for one thing, it was like, it was so great to meet a group of people who were passionate about the same thing, like the aesthetic, you know, passion about being ensemble.
7 (46m 19s):
And that show is like so challenging and fun and stressful, but also like super rewarding. And also at the same time, you know, it kind of changed the dynamic I had as an actor and artists with the audience, because it's so rare as an actor that you get to just like be yourself on stage. It's like rarely happens at all. So to on a weekly basis, just stand in front of an audience and like be yourself. And then, and then also think about like what you want to say and how you want to say it. And you know, like through movement or puppetry or through humor or through earnestness or do something concise conceptual or abstract or, you know, and I did some like crazy shit,
2 (47m 10s):
Like what was your, what was your favorite cause like what I'm noticing and what as you're talking, what I'm remembering about you is that yeah. Like literally you, you, my experience of you and when we knew each other back in the day, was that yet you did not, you, you, you wanted to sort of push the envelope and step outside of the bounds of what we were learning at the theater school. Like you just had an experimental, like heart about you. So I guess my question is like onstage. What do you remember about to my, about the Neo futurist that like really sticks to you? Like performance wise? Like what was so special? Like when did she
7 (47m 48s):
So many things? I mean, I think, well, the craziest thing I did was take a shit on stage with someone
2 (47m 57s):
I never heard about this.
7 (47m 60s):
It was actually a very like poignant play about like writing. It was with my mentor who was, and then you have you trust and we have the same name and we both, the play was actually called untitled number two. And we had this thing in common before we would perform, we would always like have to take a pill. So I just wrote this play about that experience. And to me, like he was, you know, offered me so much advice and so many, you know, really kind of mentored me through being a new, a futurist. And so I wrote this play in homage to him and, you know, as a gift and a sense. So at the end we like produced.
7 (48m 41s):
We like, we were actually, we put in a bucket and then at some point we, you know, we turned the bucket over and then, which was really hard to do. Cause I have to like, hold my poo in all day. And I was like, it was not sure what was going to come out at a certain, but I also did other
2 (48m 54s):
So. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess because, okay, so like the old summit stage fright I think is about being a failure for me on stage, like being embarrassed, being shamed, being all the things, right? Like that's what makes me panic on stage. Right? So this is an experience where you literally are like showing your insides, like take excrement, like on stage for the sake of art and for the sake of, but like, was it freeing?
7 (49m 26s):
Yeah. I mean, there was, I really never forget when I first run that I did my good friend, Erica, who I met during the new futurist and who I'm still really good friends with now. She said to me, she's like, if you fuck up, you have to let it go because you'll ruin the moment that you're in. And the next moment. So there are so many times, I mean, it was, we would learn things like the day before, the day of, and it was inevitable that we were going to fuck up. So all of that perfectionism, you had to kind of leave at the door. And, and that moment I remember sometimes like being on stage and being like, I have a line coming up. I don't even know what that line is.
7 (50m 9s):
And here you are. And then you just kind of like, say whatever comes out of your mouth and it's just becomes part of the show. So it was really freaky for me, who I felt like at school, I was not a perfectionist, but I did do a lot of homework to make things go. Right. I had to just let, I mean, another moment to, I, we did this like dance number where we had, we had these masks, there weren't masks. They were like plastic plates with smiling faces on them. And we didn't get a chance to rehearse the dance number before we went on. So I was beat backstage and someone was telling me like what the dancing
2 (50m 48s):
Score.
7 (50m 52s):
So I had my glasses on, like with this plate pressed against me and I hardly could see. And I was just like, all right, I'm just going to like follow the person in front of me and just see what happens. And then I think that's on YouTube somewhere of me like,
4 (51m 7s):
Oh, well, they wait. So I'm glad that you started to speak to being a perfectionist in undergrad because it wasn't until you use that word about perfectionism that I, that rung a bell. Oh yeah. You were perfectionists or, or maybe you were just one of these people that, you know, like we've talked to before who took theater school rarely, seriously, and maybe didn't care for people who didn't. I don't know if that's true about you or not, but how have you wrestled with your perfectionism as a performer and as a writer?
7 (51m 42s):
Yeah, I mean, I think what was school? I had like a very different experience. My first two years, compared to the second two years, I was certainly a big nerd my first two years. And I wish I had it cause when I knew this was coming up and I couldn't find it, I think it's at my sister's place someplace, but I have a journal that I kept used to write after every acting class. And I would write like what happened and then I'd give myself some like insights and recommendations for like next time I still have it. It's just, I have to find it. And when I do I'll, I'll, I'll send you. Cause I think I was, it was, I definitely documented everything that happened.
7 (52m 25s):
Like breakdowns, like being really angry, being really happy, like all that kind of stuff.
2 (52m 32s):
7 (52m 49s):
I will, I will scan a good journal entry and I'll send it to both of you when I find it. But I think, you know, writing that really helped me, I think thrive the first two years was like the writing aspect of it and reflecting on it. And I think in terms of what I do now, like I need breaks and that's how I handle like dealing with perfectionism. Now I sometimes like I've just kind of started to develop a writing practice the past two years. And I know when it's time to stop. And usually it's when I stop, I know I need to like go for a walk and reflect or just let it go.
7 (53m 29s):
And then like,
2 (53m 30s):
'cause, that's what your friend Erica told you. It's like, you have to, we have to just let it go at a certain point in order to not because what happens right. As fear begets, fear, begets perfectionism. So on stage, if something goes awry, since we're all artists, we can relate, like if something goes awry and you stay stuck in the earth, wryness you really miss out on what's coming next. And also you're destined to fuck up. What's coming next. So that letting go for you, it sounds like it's really important in order to move on now, even not on stage. Like, and so you, you say like writing and walking helps you let go and you've realized that like to move on.
2 (54m 10s):
Yeah.
7 (54m 11s):
Yeah. And I it's so funny. We were talking about letting go. Cause when I auditioned for the Neos, we had to write a play about our biggest challenge. And to me it was letting go and I wrote this play, well, we didn't say any words, but we, there was a paper shredder on stage. And then I wrote out like a word or two on a piece of paper and then like put it through the shredder. And then we gave like, we held out pens or markers to the audience and then like the audience could come up and write something and then shred it. And it was like very powerful. Cause like some people would write like, you know, my, you know, my ex-boyfriend or like envy or, you know, last seasons, like fashion collection or whatever it is, you know, that they wanted to let go of.
7 (54m 59s):
But I think to me that is something that's still, you know, resonates of like how, how do I let go? You know, like through meditation, through like the walking for me is a meditation and that's, that's usually like, it's a big part of my process just to take the time, you know, to take the time between creation, I guess.
4 (55m 20s):
What have you learned that you've had to let go in terms of how you saw yourself as an artist when you started school, versus when you came out, like in the time that you've been able to reflect? What, what I mean? Cause we, we had lots of ideas about our spas and I had lots of ideas about ourselves and who we were as artists and whoever people. And most of those were all completely, they were wrong. So, so this podcast has been a process of letting go of some of those antidotes. What's it been like for you?
7 (55m 53s):
Yeah, I mean a big thing for me at school I remember was I know I've listened to a ton of episodes and I feel like I was really at war with myself. You know, I, the criticism from the teachers wasn't as big of a deal as the, as the criticism that I gave myself. Like I, I never, there was no self validation at all. Like even when I did something, well, I never told myself I, there was always something wrong. And I think that has been a big part of my adulthood is just learning to give myself a gold star and to self validate and then also to learn, to understand permission, to get feedback.
7 (56m 44s):
And you know, I think that was something that was always a little challenging at theater school too, was, you know, I like, you know, the, the lab director that I mentioned earlier at EST, who would say like, what do you need to know in order to move forward? So often at school we weren't in control of the feedback that we got. So I think sometimes it was really challenging for me when I was like, I'm not ready for all of this or I don't need to know that. Why are you telling me that now? Or, you know, we couldn't, I couldn't control any of that. And maybe I needed to let go of that. And I did have a little bit of a habit and, and a little reputation for walking out of class.
7 (57m 32s):
Yeah. And it was, it was something I had to address and something, a lot of teachers talk to me about. And I mean, often it was because I was bored or just like needed a break, or I was like, I didn't want to like watch someone or whatever it was. And
2 (57m 46s):
I think it's really bold. Like what the fuck, man? I wish the one time I did that, I, I like got in big trouble for it. And like, but like whatever the reason is you were on some level trying to take care of yourself. Right. And so good for you. Like, fuck that. I don't know. I like it. I probably would be like, oh, oh, that's awesome. And secretly I'm like, oh, the audacity, the amazing audacity of Joe to walk out and inside. I'm probably like, I wish I could do that. But anyway, so
7 (58m 20s):
Yeah, I mean, to me it was, it was self care in a way. And that was before we knew anything about that. And you know, when I think of like what I was going through at the time too, was it was such an emotional time for me, like for so many reasons. And, you know, like, you know, being away from home and coming out of the closet and like, you know, like all the money struggles I had and like, I, you know, it just kind of gave me, I was just learning how to take care of myself. And then on top of all those things, like studying drama, like, okay, this is the perfect time to study drama now, you know, and even like doing all the things that we did, like, especially the movement stuff always had kind of profound effect on me.
7 (59m 8s):
Cause we were like retraining how to the nervous system, that sense of like freeing our natural voice and doing all these things. So I was really emotional, like the first two years a lot. And I would just leave to kind of like collect my thoughts and not like have a major breakdown in class or dumb about something that yeah.
4 (59m 25s):
To modulate. Right. Because that's what you, what you definitely have no control over is modulating the flow of feedback because it's not just feedback from your teachers. We're getting feedback from our peers. And sometimes you'd get feedback from peers that you didn't really respect them. So you were like, I'm not sure what to, I'm not sure what to make of this.
2 (59m 42s):
What's becoming clear. Is that based on what you experienced after that with the lab is that we needed a feedback class. Like we needed a literal class of how to give and receive feedback at the theater school would have been fucking phenomenal.
7 (59m 58s):
Oh my God. I know it wasn't until years later when I was a Neo that we learn, the, the show was on, I think east fourth street and right next to his New York theater workshop. And they do the Liz Lurman feedback method, which I love. And I'm like, oh my God, that was really a beginning point for me because then it just to follow that structure is brilliant. Like, just start with what you were struck by. I don't need your opinion right away on what to change. Look, just tell me what you were struck by what moments did you enjoy? What, you know, what questions do you have and then, or asking questions yourself. And I mean, maybe the school does that now, but I think that was really, that was really big for me.
7 (1h 0m 39s):
I, for any artist, whether you're a dancer or
2 (1h 0m 41s):
No matter whether you're a child getting feedback from your parent or a spouse, getting feedback from your other spouse or whatever, it, it, it works in all levels. And I think that what it does though, is disrupts the hierarchy of the power in an institution. And so nobody likes that. I mean, really like teachers need to feel like they're in control, right. Instead of what struck me, let's stay curious, let's stay open. That's not how conservatories are made. Like that's not the whole goal of them. And then maybe I hope they're changing, but like, yeah. Oh, I just love that you haven't had that experience after school with both the, the, the work in New York and the, the ensemble work you did and the Neo futurists sort of sh it sounds like it's really shaped your work moving forward as an artist, right?
7 (1h 1m 34s):
Yeah. I mean, it was really, I have to say, I mean, after that moment of being a Neo futurists, I was like, I don't think I can play a character ever again. I don't really know it can happen cause I, it just didn't, I, it really changed the dynamic I had with an audience. And I, I guess I didn't want to go back to what it was before also being a Neo. I had to let go of really all the things I had learned at school, in a sense, I mean, all I could really use was like maybe some of the voice and speech work we had done, but I, I mean, yeah, it really kind of shifted things for me, but being in that ensemble was great.
7 (1h 2m 14s):
Cause I, I, you know, we really learned how you really need to learn how to give and take and to, and, but also be an advocate for your own work because every week, you know, you had to kind of bring in something and you had to pitch it. You had to sell it to the five or six people who were deciding what was in the show that week. So it was, I think it's an experience that I, they do workshops, but like, I think everyone should do a workshop in that way because the show itself is living newspaper. So you have to think of like, what is relevant right now? What's relevant to this audience what's relevant in this moment, you know? And how can I bring that on stage?
4 (1h 2m 55s):
So wait, so you had an interest young in musical theater, but did you follow that? Have you remained interested in musical theater?
7 (1h 3m 6s):
No. You know what? I know you all have talked about the brochure and so I completely read the brochure wrong when I chose DePaul. Well, a couple of things I had for musical theater, I wanted to get a BFA musical theater. And there aren't a lot of schools that offer that. So I, you know, when I didn't get into some NYU, I was like, okay, well, what other school? So I had to be flexible with that. But the brochure I remember for DePaul the last year we took ensemble class. And I actually thought that that meant that we were in a theater company.
7 (1h 3m 48s):
So I not only thought that the, like, after you graduated, you're part of an ensemble theater company. So I told everyone, I'm like, I'm going to DePaul. And then I'm in a theater company. And then I thought that like, that was one crazy thing. And then also the movement stuff, which was, I actually really loved, like all the movements that we did. Like, I'm a big, like I'm, I was a big fan of moving to music. Like that was my jam at school. So I thought I was going to be getting some dancing training there, but I kind of, I did let it go. Certainly like, as the years of the
2 (1h 4m 26s):
Rest of the school, were you in any
7 (1h 4m 29s):
I wasn't and I really wanted to be, I, we did like Peter pan one year. And Were you in that?
2 (1h 4m 38s):
No, but Eric was saying was Susan Lee and she talks about it on the podcast.
7 (1h 4m 45s):
I heard that one. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. But yeah, no, I didn't do any musical theater stuff. I did love all the, we learned like period dance, which I was a big fan of, like, that was
2 (1h 4m 57s):
Me too. There was a fucking structure and it was like slow. And like, there was a way to do it. I remember the Elizabethan situation maybe, or like there was like this dance with Romeo and Juliet situation. And I loved that. I felt like there were actual steps we could take, there was a pacing to it.
4 (1h 5m 21s):
And you knew if you got it or not. Right. Like it was, it wasn't nebulous. Like you either understood how to do it or you didn't.
7 (1h 5m 27s):
Yeah. I thought I was like, I love the ritual of it. And it was, it was great to learn about history in that way too. And I liked all the Labon stuff that we did with Betsy, I thought,
2 (1h 5m 38s):
Is that the buoyancy and the, this and the, that.
7 (1h 5m 42s):
Yeah. I loved all of that stuff.
2 (1h 5m 44s):
Yeah.
7 (1h 5m 45s):
I mean, it was, you know, it was physically challenging too. We, I remember that thing we did with it was called like chaos, where you had to like go crazy. And
4 (1h 5m 55s):
I don't remember that.
7 (1h 5m 57s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 5m 57s):
It was crazy. And I remember I got such a stiff neck. I had to go to the emergency Because we were going crazy. And the next day I was like, I think I broke my neck, but I didn't break my head. So I had to go to that. And they were like, what did you do where he's like at a headbanging concert? I was like, no, it's a theater school now.
4 (1h 6m 23s):
Oh, we got another one. We got another theater,
2 (1h 6m 27s):
Chaos lady. I was like, I can't move. Yeah.
4 (1h 6m 31s):
Okay. But wait, so tell us about Susan Laurie parks, 365 plays and 365 days.
7 (1h 6m 39s):
Yeah. So that was, we, the Neos were given a handful of S of days for our scripts from that. And then as an ensemble, we were tasked with like interpreting it in any way that we wanted to. So it was cool to like, do a show at the public. And I remember we did one piece called FedEx to my ex where we had, like, we used actual FedEx boxes, like maybe like 50 or 60 of them. And we, we had letters on them or words and like kind of configured them to, to give messages out to the audience on these boxes.
7 (1h 7m 24s):
So I love that experience just cause we, as an ensemble, get to LA to celebrate this playwright with other like theater companies from, I think it was from, from all over the place. And it felt, again, like another professional experience, something that we didn't really get a chance to do, because the show that we did on a weekly basis was like on knew sports street at like 11 o'clock at night, you know? And this was more of a, like, you know, a different audience for us, which wasn't,
2 (1h 7m 53s):
When did you stop working with, is it like once a Neil always said, Neil, can you stop pack in and do stuff? Or like, how does it work?
7 (1h 8m 1s):
You can. Yeah. So the, I was like a regularly scheduled Neo for about two years or so. And then I jumped in to do the show at other times. And like we did a pride show that I would do often, or I would come in and do a run. And then we also had primetime shows. So I was involved in like two or three prime time shows as either a performer or assistant director or a collaborator in some way. And I did that up until I did some marketing for the company. I did that up until I moved to LA. And even my first year in LA, I did a project at here art center with my, one of my theater heroes chucked me that I went back to to, to see.
7 (1h 8m 50s):
So, but yeah, when I moved here, I kind of just decided to let, let that go.
2 (1h 8m 60s):
They're always themes that emerged with people's lives when they come on the show. So for you then stop and starting, like ed Ryan's is being interrupted and yours is like letting things go. So when did you arrive in LA?
7 (1h 9m 13s):
I moved here. It's been five years. So 2017 or so. And you know, I finally feel like now I'm kind of getting settled. I mean, I'd go back to New York a lot just to hang out and spend time there. And I work remotely. So I'm able to like go there and like work for a couple of weeks. I've learned not to stay too, too long. Cause last summer I was there for six weeks and I was like, oh, I feel like I'm in my old life.
4 (1h 9m 42s):
How do you satisfy? If you still have a craving for performance, how do you set it? Because now you have your own company you're self-employed, which is awesome. How do you, do you have to contend with a need to perform and how do you
7 (1h 10m 0s):
Yeah, well recently, I mean, I've been working on these personal essays or I've been working on some personal essays that I've been, you know, just kind of mulling over for a while. And then recently I did audio recordings of them, which kind of brought back a lot of things for me. I've never done that before. So I like it though. And I kind of got the idea. I went to see David Sedaris, like perform. And I was like, this guy has like a really good idea. Like he writes these essays, he performs them in front of an audience. He gets feedback from the audience makes adjustments. And he is in sense, like in a sense of performer and a writer. And I love, I love that model and I think, you know, other people do it too.
7 (1h 10m 45s):
And I think that's something that perhaps I'm aspiring to next is to be able to like write these essays and like share my stories in it. Doesn't have to be like, just reading it in front of an audience, but maybe in an interesting way. So it's kind of almost Neo futurists in a way, cause that's what we did during that show, but I guess it's not, you know, there's no race against the clock there and it's, you know, and it's longer than two minutes.
2 (1h 11m 13s):
Yeah. And I think that there's, it's interesting. Like there's different. What I'm noticing about your story is like the, that your art has sort of just taken and maybe this is the way it always is for all of us, but different incarnations at different times. And now is the time where you're exploring like audio and storytelling in a different way. But yeah, you're a storyteller through and through. And I think your, your, your content strategy is that what you have a con, like what, what do you do tell us what you do. Cause I, I saw your website. I want to know what that means.
7 (1h 11m 47s):
Yeah. So I, if someone asks, I say I'm a marketing consultant and manager, and then if someone asks, well, what does that mean? And I say, oh, okay, well I'm a content strategist. So I help service-based businesses develop content to generate leads and to promote their services. So what that, how,
2 (1h 12m 7s):
And as you get into it, know I'm selfishly like this is sounds fantastic. Like I'm always curious how artists then go into a field where they can get paid to do.
7 (1h 12m 20s):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it started with the Neos because as part of the, as an ensemble member, we had to do some administrative tasks. So I was on the marketing committee, which basically meant like handing out postcards and maybe some promotional events. And then I, and that's what that's when like Facebook first came out, we were like promoting our show on Facebook. And then I went actually back to school, I went to fit and I studied marketing and advertising. Yeah. And then I even, like, I interned at Esquire magazine and like, I thought I wanted to work at a magazine, but then I realized I wanted to work at a magazine, like in the eighties, like I wanted to work at like interview or something
2 (1h 13m 8s):
Like,
7 (1h 13m 8s):
Oh, I love sassy. I remember that. Yeah. So then after that experience, then I, yeah, I graduated the year, the like the market crashed and like 2009 and then I started freelancing and then my first gig was like at a restaurant, like creating content for them. And then I started doing non-profit arts management work, like working at theaters. And then I went back to doing freelance stuff. So I, to me though, all the stuff that I, I consult with folks, like all the information I give them is based on all the stuff I learned at this company called organization called art, New York it's Alliance of resident theaters.
7 (1h 13m 51s):
And it's all audience development work. Like how do you develop an audience? How do you, you know, what tactics do you use to reach like a core connected and unconnected audience? So I use that kind of that fee theatrical, like, you know, marketing framework with, with my theater clients, you know, and it works really well.
2 (1h 14m 14s):
And then why do you think people hire you? Like, what do you bring? I'm like, this is turning into like a business development meeting. What, what do you have that people like, I guess is what I'm
7 (1h 14m 27s):
Yeah, I think a couple of things. One, I definitely have a New York sensibility. Like I work with a lot of urgency, which a lot of people in LA I think really appreciate. And then, you know, also that I have a strap, like an approach to the work and you know, one of the things I value is like the idea of good, better, best like,
2 (1h 14m 49s):
Oh, wait.
7 (1h 14m 50s):
Yeah. So with, with I say this a lot to my clients, I even have a little like sticker collection I made that was like a little sticker on it, but good, better. Best is just a way of like, again, not to let perfect be the enemy of goods to like say, Hey, we have this thing that needs to happen. What is the good version of this look like? What can we, what can we make happen today or tomorrow? What is the best version of this look like? Can we start with good and then work towards best? So that's one kind of approach that I have. And then I'm also, I'm a strategist, but I'm also a creator. So, so often people will hire a strategist and then they're like, okay, do the things I say, and then there's no one to do it.
7 (1h 15m 31s):
And then, so I usually say, okay, well here's the strategy and this is, this is the, these are the deliverables. This is the calendar I've made to like to, to send it out to the world. And I think a lot of people like that, I actually do the work and then I create the strategy for it as
2 (1h 15m 47s):
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
4 (1h 15m 51s):
The thing that you said about, I never wanted to play a character again, that keeps, that keeps running through, through my head and to me, what that translates to is maybe something also that I feel, which is the real stuff that's really interesting is about. I mean, I guess it's,
7 (1h 16m 30s):
Yeah. I mean, definitely all the roles that I got cast in were like characters. Like I, my, I have a, you know, I was kind of the character actor. I was told that too. And you know, I had moments in school where, you know, and I love Phyllis. Phyllis was such a nurturing, like presence for me at the time. And I think like she really encouraged me to have the creativity, to see myself in a different way, which I think is more important than anything. Oh God, I forgot the question. Where were you,
2 (1h 17m 11s):
What was, did you like, you know, we talk now about, I think this is what I'm getting from what Gina said was like, we talk now about how we are like, there's no more, we don't want to play characters anymore because like our, our experience and especially what you're saying, like our, our experience with an audience is like authentic when we're being a part of ourselves. So like at the theater school, did you feel like you were just, we were just had to like play to put something on we, could you not, did you feel like you could be yourself at the theater school, I guess, or no way
7 (1h 17m 44s):
Like in performance or in the classroom? Yeah. In the classroom. I definitely felt like I was able to, I, I was pretty bold, I think in, in class and a little punky at times. And I remember once when we were doing Shakespeare scenes, I was like, I want to play Juliet. And actually you all did a session with Noel who I reconnected with after like 20 years. And now we chat on the phone and stuff. So grateful, so grateful for that. But, you know, I think, and they did allow that to happen. I even remember in Dr.
7 (1h 18m 27s):
Bella's class, like we had to do the scene from the glass menagerie, and then it did the scene. I also did with Noel where I was like, let's make a giant menagerie of glass and that that'll be our set. And so we like put all these chairs on top of each other and tables and, and I remember, so I think there was some freedom to, to do that in performance. Maybe not so much because I think I didn't underst I was learning what the role was between director and actor. And I wanted to be more of a collaborator. And that's always when I, but you know, butt heads with people, especially maybe the student directors where I was like, I don't understand why I'm wearing a turtleneck.
7 (1h 19m 6s):
Like, why do I have, like, I once played this like philosopher and he was a real punk. And I was like, he should be in like a punk outfit, but I looked like Steve jobs, you know? And I, you know, It was a play called life during war time. Yeah. And I so remember, like having those moments where I, and this is exactly what the Neos do is like they, they throw ideas back and forth to each other collaborate. And I just realized that I wasn't going to be able to do that if I had a traditional, if I was a traditional actor. I mean maybe in some instances that works where you can have those conversations, but so often I think it's not the case.
2 (1h 19m 49s):
Yeah. No. And I I'm so grateful. You found some outlets for your creativity that really spoke to you because I feel like a lot of people, we talk to myself included. There's like this gap of not finding your place for like 20 years and then finally finding it and realizing, oh, I found it, but I'm now 45 years old and have student debt or whatever. So you, and, and you found a place, it sounds like an artistic home for a while, which is so great that I feel like a lot of us never find. Right. I don't feel like I ever found an artistic home as a theater performer, particularly.
2 (1h 20m 29s):
So, which is, brings me back to the brochure, which is what you wanted when you saw that brochure was like a place to belong. Post-graduation was an ensemble to belong to and you found it. I mean, you didn't find it at DePaul in the brochure, but you found it in New York, which is fantastic. And then I guess, do you ever have dreams of doing it again? Like, do you in LA, like, do you have dreams of starting like a Neos in LA?
7 (1h 20m 58s):
Yeah. I don't think I would do that, but I have to say there were some projects that I've done over the years. Do you all remember Stephanie?
2 (1h 21m 12s):
Yes. Now the name, there's two different names that might get the name. The name is familiar. Yeah.
7 (1h 21m 18s):
I just saw her this, this past weekend. Cause I was in San Francisco and like she did this project that a bunch of DePaul people did. It was a sock puppet version of Showgirls that was in Chicago and New York. I think they even brought it to LA and like Jason, Dennis, Zach was in it and I was in a, in Kelly, Holden who's.
2 (1h 21m 42s):
Yeah.
7 (1h 21m 43s):
And I love doing stuff like that. I just love like taking a piece of something and having like some funny late night parody of, of something. Like, I really enjoy that work where it's, it's a situation where people are like drinking beer and there's some audience engagement or interaction. So I think if there was a project like that, I think I would kind of jump in. And I, I thought of that particular show because it was such a fun experience with other DePaul people. Well, one of the things I wanted to say to you all too, was like, I love that you're doing this. Cause I feel like first it's like no easy feat to put together a podcast, but you are both like creating and helping cultivate community that I think I missed.
7 (1h 22m 31s):
Cause I, I graduated from school and I felt like everyone disappeared. And then there was no social structure for me to, to, to gravitate towards,
2 (1h 22m 44s):
Through line, through line. It's like you graduate and some people get famous, some don't and fuck the rest. And I mean like that's how it is. It's like we all live vicariously through the people that get famous. It's the weirdest thing.
7 (1h 22m 58s):
Yeah. Yeah. When I, I think there was there, I know there are conversation. People like, especially being in LA, like actually having that, anyone met up with anyone from DePaul since I've been here. I mean, I connect with, you know, there's my close friends up from school that I've stayed connected with for a couple of years. But you know, I think that's what I think was so hard for me when I left school was not having that community there. And then when I moved to New York, I actually reached out to all the DePaul people who were in New York and they became like good friends, you know, which was, which was nice. But there were only a few of us there.
2 (1h 23m 37s):
I think the thing is like people think that we are doing a podcast that sort of celebrates the awesomeness of the theater school. And also I think people just even hear the word theater school and flip out that went there and I can end it with saying that I was telling Gina that I recently saw Rick Murphy in the Aldi in Altadena. We can leave this part in, cause this is, and I ran away. Like I, well, first of all, he didn't have a mask on. I did. I was like, so it was weird to me. I thought he was sick. Someone told me he was sick. So when I saw him healthy and like bouncing around the Aldi, I was like, what is fucking happening?
2 (1h 24m 18s):
And also, should I say something? And he wasn't wearing a mask. It was like this weird thing. And I ultimately left, like I did not say shit. I was. And I think, look, I think it was a lot of things, but I think the underlying thing is like, I don't know if he'll remember me and I don't want to deal with the shame of not being remembered. And I don't want to get into all that with him unless it's in a container where he's on the show where I know we're in control of the whole conversation.
7 (1h 24m 45s):
Well, I think sometimes the challenge is when you see someone who used to do like theater with back in the day, the inevitable question that comes up is like, what are you doing? You know, which is always from,
2 (1h 24m 58s):
I say two things. I'm doing porn and murder.
7 (1h 25m 5s):
Oh my God. I'm stealing that feeling that
3 (1h 25m 17s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: Boz did MDMA
Let Me Run This By You: Will Smith and Chris Rock
Interview: We talk to Katharine Scarborough about The New School, Ron Leibman, Robert LuPone, Casey Biggs, the Actor's Studio, Neil Labute's Fat Pig, Harvard's A.R.T., Shakespeare & Company, Moscow Art Theatre, Biomechanics, Michael Chekhov technique, Michael Chekhov Theatre Festival, Ragnar Freidank, Mabou Mines, Dixon Place, The Brick Theater, JoAnne Akalaitis, Big Girl web series, Jean Taylor, clowning, clown burlesque, improv culture, Bridesmaids, Melissa McCarthy, actor branding, cultivating a good relationship with agents, One on One NYC.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
And at 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? So I think the main thing I just want to say is like, I took drugs, but we call it the medicine. Right. Everyone's like in the ma so I did, and I won't, it's still illegal because it's still in third clinical trials, but I took MTMA with a trained MTMA guide. Who's also a therapist whose name I shall not say so that she doesn't go to jail for some weird reasons. And I'm going to tell you, and you probably already know this from your, from, I know you have some like knowledge about psychiatry or about psychedelics in terms of medical use and stuff like that.
1 (1m 12s):
Not that you've done them, but you know what I mean? I know you, whatever the point is, I think it's going to change psychiatry. Like it's going to change
2 (1m 21s):
A hundred percent.
1 (1m 22s):
I had. Okay. First of all, I was scared shitless. So MTMA is the pure forum for people that don't know of, of ecstasy or Molly, but it's, it's, you know, pharmaceutical grade and it's whatever, it's very, you know, whatever, it's a, it's a legit medicine, but I was scared. I was like, I'm going to die. I'm going to take this. This is where for someone that has anxiety more than I have depression, I think now anyway, in my life, the fear was I'm I'm doing something illegal. This is wrong. And I'm going to suffer for it also, like that was the moralistic fear. And then the actual fear of what the fuck is going to happen.
1 (2m 3s):
So for people, you know, just so people know, like you're in this person, rented a house and Airbnb and had a beautiful, I was, it was just me and her and a beautiful, like, amazing bed. That was that she brings in. That's like a foam, a memory foam. It's not as shitty thing. It's like really great. And I even thought that before I was on drugs, right? Like I was like, this is a really good setup. The house was a neutral house. Meaning she picked a great thing, which was there. Wasn't the, the family of the people's art on the walls. It was like pictures of surfing and stuff and like water.
1 (2m 44s):
But like not a lot of people, there were no mirrors. Like I was like, is this made for this? And she's like, no, I just found this. There was no, no, the house was clean. So it felt really good. Right. But not sterile. So that was great. And she had flowers and stuff and there was like a table set up. So then you go in, you bring objects and, and pictures, if you want. And there's two kinds of MDM assisted therapy, right. There's talk therapy you could do with two therapists. I did not. This, this practitioner does not do that kind. She's a firm believer in like letting the client lead their own experience.
1 (3m 26s):
And at first I was like, oh, I hate that. I want you to take care of me. Like I was like, I want all the therapists in the room. Right. It was like a real, and then I said, you know, no, I'm gonna, I'm an adult. Like I can it's. Okay. And also when you have two therapists in the room, they, they, they use the music less. So what I will say is the music was, I would say 90% of what was amazing about this. I don't even like music really. Like, I'm not a music person, but you, you literally have your headphones noise, canceling headphones with th with curated music from MTMA musicians.
1 (4m 7s):
So people that have scientists have worked with psychiatrists and doctors to develop music specifically for psychedelic MTMA journeys it's and it's timed with the medicines. So, because they know, because they've done studies, they know the trajectory of the journey in terms of what you're going to be, what kind of thing is going to be maybe happening. So they time this music. So you put on these headphones and there's like blankets. And I brought my own blanket. And it's you do like beforehand, you say a prayer and like, not a prayer, but like, yeah, like, like a, like a meditation tension.
1 (4m 47s):
We said, I, and believe me, this was not something I took lightly in terms of, I for weeks have been committed to doing it. So then there's a workbook beforehand there's sessions with the therapist beforehand. So it is not a party. This is not, I cannot say this enough. It is a journey and not a party. So meaning that it's a whole thing. It's like a process it's it's therapy. It's it's medical treatment is what it is. Okay. So you have this headphones on and also the music is playing in the room as well, the same music. So that even if you take your headphones off, you hear it and okay. And you have total blackout shades on, on your eyes.
1 (5m 31s):
So a mask that is comfortable and soft, but really dark. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to die. Like, this is, this is it. This is how I die. And then I was like, you know what? You have so much, like you you've done so much research. You've watched the videos, you know, this is not gonna, they're gonna kill you, but you're scared. Okay. But I just took the pill. I was like, okay, here we go. So I took the pill and then you lay down and you're like, okay, it's not working. Like none of it. And by the way, I've never taken equity in my life. I've taken throughs and I'm taking acid and obviously marijuana I've smoked and stuff and edibles, but never that. So I was like, nah, it's not working.
1 (6m 12s):
And then the music, okay, well, all I can say is it becomes a party for your body and the notes I will share with you in an email that she took. I said some of the funniest things that I've ever said, and also you're like still aware that you're you. So it's not the feeling because for someone like me who has trauma and panic, the big fears that you'll disappear, I will disappear. I won't have an identity and no one will take care of me. And I will, I will totally decompensate to the point of death. Like that is really the thing, this drug, this medicine, you know, you're still you like, if, if, if a police officer, God forbid came up and said, what's your name?
1 (6m 57s):
And you could answer all those questions. It's just, it literally turns off the part of your brain that is super judgy. So I knew what was happening sort of, but then the music, I was like, okay, this is not working. And all of a sudden, Gina, the music becomes the most beautiful music you've ever heard in your life. Like, you can't believe that humans made the music. Like I was like, this is, and I, I kept saying, this is like watching a movie with your body. So you're. Yeah. So you're like, and then, okay, so you feel, I felt great. And like, you're underwater, you can breathe under water and there's some visuals, but you're seeing nothing.
1 (7m 40s):
I mean, there's no, there's black, but you're seeing it. So you are kind of hallucinating. But the thing, and the thing that happens is with MTMA is that the whole principle is that inside of us, that these MTMA psychiatrists and therapists believe that there is an inner healer drive to live person who knows better inside of all of us before the trauma happens. Right. It's moved that we access that part of ourselves during the MTMA journey and you, and that's why they say trust the medicine. And I'm like, that is, fuck you. Trust them like beforehand. I was like, but you, and don't get ahead of the medicine, all these things they say.
1 (8m 21s):
And you're like, what? But you, you know what it means once you do it, you're like you is the most. So you're feeling good. I felt like you just feel relaxed and, but it gets you in that state. So then you can look at your trauma, so,
3 (8m 38s):
Oh, okay. Like making everything, just so PR conditions being perfect. Yeah.
1 (8m 44s):
And then you're like, oh, this is a hard song. So it feels like, oh, this is a hard song. And that's how I started to feel. This is going to be a song. And it, and I can only tell you that, like I worked through some it's, it is, it's like 12 therapy sessions in six hours in a, in a, in a, in a wonderful way in that I looked at some stuff, some crazy stuff, but it is not, we're not when we're on MTMA we're not attached to the trauma. So it's like watching a movie, but also you're feeling it.
1 (9m 27s):
Like I could feel fear and panic come up. So it wasn't like I had a good time all the time, but I wasn't, you can go towards it without feeling like you're going to be annihilated. I didn't think I was ever going to be annihilated by my trauma in the, in the medicine. I felt like I had the resources and I knew there, and I was curious about what the songs and the music and the drug was going to show me rather than petrified. And I have to get the fuck out of here. And like, I don't care what I do.
3 (10m 6s):
Did you ha did you remember things that you hadn't remembered before?
1 (10m 10s):
No. It was like, well, no, no. It was like different. It does it in a way that is like, not you. So the things I worked through, I can say it was like a song and the music is timed. When you're at the peak of the medicine for this, it was like some crazy, like intense, you know, soundtrack to a scary, not a scary movie, like, like, like a war movie. Right. And you're like, oh God. And at least that was my experience. But then what happened was I had a nine 11 situation where I was in the burning building is so crazy. This is nine 11. And I'm in a burning building on the 94, but I'm not panicked. I'm like, okay, this is what's happening.
1 (10m 52s):
And I go to a man and a woman who are dressed in business clothes, and they're sort of tattered. And we've all been through this horrible crash. And I say, you guys, we have to jump now. And they're like, fuck, you know, way to a man and a woman blonde lady. And I say, listen, I know you're really scared work on a jump together. We're together. And this is the last conscious choice we get to make as a group to do, to take, to take our lives in our own hands. I'm going to ask you now to take my hands and we're going to jump and they're like petrified and I'm like, we can do it. And then, and I'm here watching Jen, the observers, like what is going to happen, but not like I got to get the fuck outta here and clawing at my skin.
1 (11m 38s):
No, no, no more like we, I knew that we had to do this. And so I took their hand and we jumped and then we started flying. We flew away. So I like helped them to, and it's really me helping me. Right. So like, I get that now. But like, and so I wasn't like petrified. So that was a huge moment. But the other moment was none of the people I didn't want to come in, came in. So like your inner healer knows, like I didn't want to see my parents and I didn't want to see my sister. And I didn't. I saw my dad in the, like a field and he was young and happy. Great. We like, that was great.
1 (12m 18s):
But in the song, there was a, like a Tibetan song nothing's in English, which is great. So like, if there are words and lyrics, it's not an English, which is great. Unless you speak those languages, then you might know what they're saying, but I did not. And so there was a Tibetan, like guys scream, like screaming, singing, like chanting. And in my head, I was like, oh, this is the reckoning song. This is where he makes other people atone for their sins against me. He's yelling at them, all the bad things they did to me. So I don't have to do it like stuff like that comes forward where you're like, holy fuck. So, and then the other thing was the name.
1 (13m 1s):
And I will say this, and I will not say the name, but the name of someone I think like sexually abused me as a child came forward. And it just said, the name of your perpetrator is, and then there was the name and it wasn't scary. And it was at the end of my journey. And it was sort of like, this is just the name and it's the name I knew. And it's a name that I had questions about. And I was like, oh, okay. And it was like, not a dun dun dong. It was like, this is
3 (13m 33s):
Okay. Okay. Oh my God. I make so many feelings.
1 (13m 37s):
Oh God. Yeah. So, so that is my, so my takeaways are still, I have many sessions afterwards. I'm gonna meet with her tonight on zoom. And we it's an ongoing process. I don't know if I'd ever do it again. They say like, you just do a maximum of three, three sessions for any person, unless you have like severe, severe trauma. And then sometimes they mix it with mushrooms and ketamine and they do all kinds of things for like combat veterans and stuff like that. Or just people that are really stuck for years that are on like 40 meds. And like can't. So I will say that it's changing psycho, like it, because you are self fricking guided.
1 (14m 21s):
It is, I didn't make the experience about anyone, but myself and I was able to take ownership over. Like it was parts were scary. Parts were lovely. Parts were fun, but it was my experience. So like, you don't lie.
3 (14m 40s):
You're the protagonist in a story.
1 (14m 42s):
And I didn't make the therapist, the leader, or I sh she was there as a witness. So what I'm saying about MTMA therapy is if you are committed to it is one it's just like fucking having a dog or getting married or anything else. If you don't really have to, or need to do it, I would say, don't do it. But if you are someone who is in therapy, working on your shit and you feel stuck, or you feel like there is a trauma that you just refuse to touch in there, talk therapy or whatever MTMA is, is the thing. But, but I really recommend, like I took a shit ton of supplements before a shit ton of supplements after HTP, all things you can get at whole foods because your body does need to.
1 (15m 29s):
And I got a massage, you got to do it the right way. Like this is, I tell people it's not a party, but it's also, it's like a journey. And it's also a huge self care thing. It's like, it's all the all, and they say, the minute you commit to the medicine like that, you're going to go on a journey. The medicine starts working. So like stuff will come up before then you're on. So all this to say, what are your thoughts when you hear this?
3 (15m 55s):
Well, I mean, I'm, That's what I would be scared of this Learning something new about my past.
1 (16m 12s):
Right, right. I know. I know. It's
3 (16m 17s):
Afterwards. How do you feel about that?
1 (16m 20s):
I, I feel like she not first want to say, like, I totally get that. I was petrified and I, The worst in our life has already happened to us because we were children and we could not do anything about it. That is the worst part of the whole thing is that we were little and had no resources. That is the crime that was committed against us. Not that it, it was that we were resource lists. The thing about MTMA and how I feel. I never felt resource lists.
1 (17m 0s):
I knew
3 (17m 2s):
If I'm prepared
1 (17m 3s):
And in the journey, even while I was like, oh, this is going to be hard, but I never felt like D I was in danger and I never felt like a child. So trauma robs you of your adult hood. Right. So it tells you you're still five and you're still in the situation and nobody's going to help you. You don't feel like that on MTMA. I don't know about, I feel like on other drugs you might, but MTMA is like really renowned for people feeling in somewhat in control. Like I could have, I wouldn't want to drive a car, but if like I needed to, I could have been like, oh, Hey, let's get out of the house now, but I hear you.
1 (17m 43s):
But it is so evident in my journey that like,
3 (17m 51s):
We w it really helps to grow you up. Let me run this fine. Everybody has trauma that they need to look at. And that leads us into what we definitely have to run by each other, which is th this thing that happened at the Oscars and talk about trauma. And, you know, all I could see in that moment was two little boys. I saw Gina.
3 (18m 30s):
Exactly. I thought, oh, they're so hurt. So deeply hurt. I have no tools right now to it, especially for will Smith. It's like, he, he short-circuited somehow. And was his trauma was unable to stay under wraps and it came out in, on a public stage. And that's all I could see too, because that's my framework. That's my, that's my paradigm. Yeah. And, and, you know, of course in the information age that we're in and the, in the social media age, the, the, the, the second something like that happens, all anybody can think about is like, what are the hot takes going to be on Twitter?
3 (19m 16s):
Right. Okay. Well, there's a variety of takes, but they all seem to be mostly focused on who was wrong or what was wrong, you know, which to me is like, not the point, you know, like it's, who's hurt, who is hurting and what are they going to do about their hurt? You know, I said, yeah. I said, these people, all of them involved need help and support. Absolutely. They need help need shunning. They don't need, you know, I mean, and, and I don't really hear too many people talking about Chris rock, but I mean, I hope his people are checking on him because he gave his help to television.
3 (20m 1s):
And I just, I know that that has happened to him before. Right. I just felt like this is such a redo of his child that I don't know that it must be. And he said, you know, he's talked about everybody hates Chris. That was a joke. And he talks about getting him, getting in trouble with his mouth before, but I don't know, man. It was just so raw. And I kinda think they just, I guess they had to air it, but, and it's sort of live or whatever, but I don't know. I just, I wish there had been, I wish the grownups had come in. Well, what we need all I was telling my therapist yesterday, we need referees to say, wait, time out time, like psychological referees that are like, this is actually going into a territory.
3 (20m 43s):
That's not okay. So like, let's stop and regroup, but nobody, you know, it's
1 (20m 47s):
Capitalism and money. And nobody cares about psychology.
3 (20m 49s):
It's like, oh, good ratings. You know, this is getting before,
1 (20m 52s):
Like, fuck them. They're rich. So who cares about them? Or fuck that.
3 (20m 55s):
I hate that. I, that argument just really is just so tired. Like, oh, if you have money, then you're not allowed to have any other problem for life.
1 (21m 4s):
Well, the other thing I think is like, if we, if we live in a capitalist world, which we do, and basically the rich people run things, I want my rich people to be healthy.
3 (21m 13s):
Amen to that. Yes.
1 (21m 16s):
Yeah.
3 (21m 18s):
And talk about tools and resources. I mean, they, they that's, that's the one thing I will say, if you have those resources, you have a responsibility to make use of them in a way that contributes not detracts from the world and yourself and the people that you love and who love you, you know? Yeah. So it was sad. And, but at the same time, I was happy. There was theater back in the Oscars. I was happy about all of the firsts that happened. I was, I, it, it looked to me to be the most inclusive orange show I've ever seen in terms of what they talked about and hoop in the symbolism.
3 (21m 58s):
And I really, I really get into the symbolism, you know, when people wear certain things and do certain things, and this rep, you know, I'm sure if we could talk to the set designer, we would, we would learn a lot about what the symbolism was of the set. And so I thought that was interesting. I was wondering where they were sitting around these tables because it's not like the golden gloves are not eating meals. And then when, when these dancers got on, I thought, oh, this is for this. And, and it just felt like theater. And I just thought, yeah, okay, good. We need this. Anyway. We need, we need to get back to like, something more pure about why we all went into this because Yes. And visceral, because the other thing that occurred to me is like, wow, I never heard about this before, but it must be so tense to be at the Oscars,
1 (22m 46s):
Like horrible.
3 (22m 48s):
You're either tense about what you're wearing tense about whether or not you're going to win tense about what speech you're going to make tense about what I noticed people. I feel like I could read people's body language when they were dissatisfied with where their seat was. You know, I just felt like everybody was, everybody comes to that night with who are you going to tell me? I am. Oh,
1 (23m 10s):
Right. That's right. And am
3 (23m 11s):
I, is that going to be acceptable to me? And it's a very narrow definition of what's.
1 (23m 17s):
Yes. Well, yeah. It's like, yeah, it's teeny, it's impossible. It's impossible. So I think you got to go, like, I now know why, like Frances McDormand goes and she's like completely stoned or like, or like just crazy people do because it's too much pressure. That's the other thing I'm real I saw was with the, with the will Smith thing, was that the amount of, like you said, tenseness, you know, the amount of pressure they, everyone looks like ready to pop. They're so anxious and stressed out and understandably it's. So I, I know now why people don't go to those things. Like I always thought it would be so fun, but now that I'm looking at it, I'm like, that seems like a lot of work and also real tense,
3 (24m 3s):
Real, real tense, but that doesn't take away from the beautiful, you know, I heard some beautiful speeches and overall I think overall I hope everything that happened at the Oscars is indicative of like things moving in a better and better direction, but we're also very far away from a lot of things, a whole lot of things.
1 (24m 26s):
And, and then there's this, you know, and we don't really have time to talk about it this time. We're going to talk about next time maybe, but like this whole thing of like, okay, so a lot of, you know, like who gets to have a take on what went down? So like, people are, are saying, you know, I've seen members of the black community saying, you know, like no white people should talk about this. And, and frankly, I didn't feel the need to talk about it as a half white, half Latino or as a human. I also, my, I thought, I thought, oh, my framework is I come from a place of like, we're all traumatized. So like, that's what I, and I'm trained in that. And that's what I can chime in about if somebody asks my goddamn opinion, like you and I ask each other's opinion, but nobody's asking my goddamn opinion.
1 (25m 13s):
So I don't keep my mouth shut. If you want to ask me what I think, then we talk about it on our podcast. You know what I mean? But like, I don't need a platform Twitter to talk about will Smith and Chris rock, they, plenty of people are doing that
3 (25m 25s):
Where people
1 (25m 26s):
Covered
3 (25m 27s):
It's covered. It's well-covered yeah. Oh, I just have a very quick update about my fascination with those tick talks with the, the women and
1 (25m 36s):
They're getting ready and the coming home,
3 (25m 38s):
I found out they're all infomercials
1 (25m 44s):
For the products in there for all the products.
3 (25m 47s):
Yeah.
1 (25m 48s):
So it's actually nothing about there. They don't really do that.
3 (25m 52s):
I mean, who knows,
1 (25m 54s):
How did you find that out?
3 (25m 57s):
'cause my kids stole they're like, I mean, and they were, they weren't saying mom, you know, that's just infomercial. They were like, yeah, you can get all those products. If you just click on the thing you can see. And I was like, oh, so the whole thing is a commercial. And they were like, yeah, what did you think it was?
1 (26m 12s):
You're that it was a day in the life of a lovely lady with very many gadgets and outfit.
3 (26m 19s):
And it was just one of those moments like, oh, I, so
1 (26m 24s):
I have those all the time. I have those all where I'm like, oh, I'm truly an eater.
3 (26m 29s):
I'm truly so dumb. I deserve, I deserve to waste my money on these products and they don't want to get my money completely work. I did in the end, only buy one thing. Oh, you
1 (26m 42s):
Actually did buy what you
3 (26m 43s):
Buy. I bought it a egg cooker. You can, you can hardball eggs in the microwave.
1 (26m 50s):
Well, that's pretty good. Okay.
3 (27m 9s):
Today on the contest we were talking to Catherine Scarborough. Catherine is an award-winning New York city-based actress and writer. She got her MFA in acting from the new school for drama. And she's also trained with the Moscow art theater and the people's improv theater. She has a lot of interesting stories and she has a fantastic web series called
6 (27m 51s):
Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Okay.
3 (27m 53s):
So congratulations, Catherine, Catherine Scarborough, you survived theater school and your first new-school alone. So I I'm really intrigued by the way, by your intro here, he says, can be interesting conversation. Does that mean you had a mixed bag of a time?
7 (28m 10s):
Well, first of all, thank you. I, yes, it was definitely a mixed bag. It's an interesting program. Yeah. I mean, I, the training, my professors were really great. I had a lot, I really am happy with my artistic training. It was the business side of things
1 (28m 32s):
That
7 (28m 33s):
I, we went out into the world completely unprepared.
1 (28m 36s):
Okay. When did you graduate? You look so young.
7 (28m 39s):
20 13, 20 13
1 (28m 44s):
Is recent. So we graduated and fricking long, long time ago. So, so like, like, yeah, nineties. So, so at 2013, the new school didn't really prepare you business wise. And I mean,
3 (28m 59s):
When did these people get,
1 (29m 0s):
When are we going to get prepared,
7 (29m 4s):
Please schools do it, to be honest with you. I think that if it's a name, if it's a school that you can walk into an audition room and they're like, oh, you're a Yalie. You're NYU. It's a different story. But like, to give you an idea, and I got my MFA, it was not a BFA program. It was an MFA program when we were getting ready or we had done our showcase maybe. And then we were doing, you know, reaching out to agents and managers, this spreadsheet that we were given, some of the people on it were dead
1 (29m 44s):
Or in jail or in jail
7 (29m 46s):
Dead. I mean, one of my classmates came back, oh
1 (29m 48s):
My God, these people,
7 (29m 52s):
They were like, I'm sorry, this person has passed away.
1 (29m 60s):
That's
3 (29m 60s):
Crazy.
1 (30m 1s):
I really, I really applaud that. Person's tenacity. They were like trying to get repped by a ghost. They will do like, I'll take anyone, give me the ghost, even
3 (30m 10s):
The ghost ghosted me. Okay. So, so you weren't prepared, but what about the straight training side of it? Like
7 (30m 20s):
You,
3 (30m 21s):
Presumably you went there saying I'm going to be a famous actress. Give me all I need to know. Did they fit the bill in that way?
7 (30m 30s):
Yes and no. I mean, it was, you know, again, once again a mixed bag, I had some fantastic professors. I, I was lucky enough to study with Ron Leibman
1 (30m 42s):
Who he, more,
7 (30m 44s):
Ron originated the role of Roy Cohn in angels in America. He was Rachel Green's dad on friends. He and studying with him was really a gift. I mean, and he, you know, I mean, he had done what you want to do as an actor in his career. He had Tony, can I curse? I really, You know, he had a fucking Tony. So there was no, I think sometimes with acting teachers, there is an ego part of it where they, I don't know, they want to mold you or they're frustrated and they haven't done what they want, but he had done everything that he wanted to do.
7 (31m 27s):
And so really he was just in it because he cared about young actors and he was tough, but he wanted you to be the best artists you could possibly be. And so that was such a gift that there were lots of professors that I really had a wonderful experience with there. Casey Biggs was my classical technique. Like Shakespeare professor. He's wonderful. He was, he's a star Trek actor. If you don't know, the Saifai world gets a lots of Shakespearian actors because they have to
3 (31m 58s):
Make
7 (31m 58s):
Sense. You know, they have to take this ridiculous material and make
1 (32m 3s):
And make it accessible.
7 (32m 6s):
Right.
1 (32m 7s):
So for people that don't know, obviously the new schools in New York, did you audition? How was that?
7 (32m 14s):
Yes, I auditioned. So it, yes, it's in New York city. It used to be where the actors studio was. And then there was this gray Bradley Cooper went to my grad school at the time that the actor's studio was still attached. And then there was this big schism actor studio went to pace. And then the new school had its own drama program run by Patty lipomas brother bobble poem. So he was the Dean
1 (32m 44s):
Of the school at your school?
7 (32m 46s):
At my school. Yeah. Bobby Lou. And so, yeah. So the audition process was I actually, they asked you to prepare a scene. So you had to find a scene partner and do a scene rather than just a monologue, which was cool. So I had a friend of mine come with him. This is funny. And a friend of mine come and do a scene with me. I did a scene from a play that I hate, but that I felt like would make me appear marketable. I did a scene.
1 (33m 17s):
Yeah.
7 (33m 17s):
I did a scene from fat pig, which,
1 (33m 19s):
Oh, no,
7 (33m 21s):
But Hey, I got into school with it. So
1 (33m 23s):
Yeah. You know what I always say about that play? Like I actually know Neil LaBute and that guy's a Dick. So, I mean, I've met him. I wouldn't say know him. He directed did he direct, he directed Wicker man, that my boss Nick cage, was it the second time UN he's got problems. He's a, he's like a Mormon, he's got problems with his own body size. I think as a, as a plus sized dude, he's real weird. He's real weird. But anyway, I always say about fat pig. It's like, I am always rooting obviously for the actress that takes on that role.
1 (34m 6s):
Especially as a plus sized lady, I'm like, yeah, you go. And, and we think, God, I hope we're writing better plays in that, but you know what? It's not the actresses deal that is doing it so good for you. So you did a scene from that pig with your friends,
7 (34m 22s):
And then he got asked to audition for the school himself and he got into,
1 (34m 30s):
I'm glad you both did because you didn't.
7 (34m 33s):
I know it would have been nuts. So, so we do the scene and then we find out what happens then is something called callback weekend. And I actually, I have to say, I think that the new school at that time, because the training has completely changed at the school now, since I've graduated. But their audition process was the best that I ever experienced because, and by the way, I auditioned for graduate schools, like on three different occasions. And when I auditioned for the new school, it was like the last gasp. It was the only school I applied to that season. Like I was like, I'm done with this. I'm going to open it.
1 (35m 11s):
No one, no one accepted you the first times. Right. Mad at them.
7 (35m 17s):
It was really awful. But are you
1 (35m 19s):
Fucking kidding me? Okay. All right. So they, you were like, fuck it. This is the last hurrah. I don't get it here. Okay.
7 (35m 25s):
Yeah. So the only school that I applied to that season, so you do your scene and then they have something called callback weekend where it's a whole weekend. You go and it's a surprise. You don't know what's going to happen. You go. And they have, because part of the core of the training and the new school is having playwrights directors and actors create new work together, creating your own work is a big part or was at that time a big part of the training program. And so you had to put together, we were put in groups and we put together a short play in 24 hours. And that was our, our callback.
3 (36m 6s):
I mean, that sounds really stressful, but also really
7 (36m 8s):
Fun. It was so fun.
1 (36m 10s):
Did you write the play,
7 (36m 12s):
The playwrights? Did they
1 (36m 14s):
Right? Yeah.
7 (36m 15s):
Yeah. At some point too, I did have to do two monologues and I cannot remember when that happened. I think, I think, you know what it was. Okay. It was callback weekend. I had to go and do my two monologues and do like a movement workshop. And then you found out, okay, you've made it now. You're the last round and you're doing a 24 hour play. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was really fun to be honest with you. It was good.
3 (36m 42s):
Yeah. I bet it was. So what about for undergrad? Were you also doing theater and under?
7 (36m 48s):
I did, but I didn't get a BFA. I got a BA at UMass at the university of Massachusetts Amherst. They actually have a beautiful theater program there. I had a great experience with them.
3 (37m 1s):
Yeah. And what was the impetus to go to grad school?
7 (37m 6s):
I had always, I mean, since I was a small child, like four years old, I've wanted to be an actress. I always, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm a theater nerd. Like I always wanted conservatory training. My family historically was not supportive of this. I really wanted to get a BFA and they didn't want me to do it. And so I ended up going to, you know, regular school, regular school and just getting a BA but studying theater. And so I had always wanted to have the experience of conservatory training.
7 (37m 45s):
After, after I got my BA at UMass, then I did a, like a training program with the Moscow art theater kind of connected. Cause I had applied for art. Didn't get in. But then the Moscow art theater reached out to me and they were like, Hey, we do this summer program. And we also do a winter program in Moscow. So I did both of those things.
1 (38m 9s):
Awesome. Yeah. They tell you my art story.
7 (38m 12s):
Oh yes, please.
1 (38m 13s):
Dude. I was a fucking idiot. So I, I was at taking a leave of absence from the theater school at DePaul. And I was at, I was at Shakespeare and company on the east coast. I was working there, but anyway, I thought, oh, this is a great time to audition for Harvard.
7 (38m 28s):
What?
1 (38m 30s):
I don't know what I was thinking. Like DePaul was fine. Like Harvard, like air chief was actually going to be better. But anyway, I mean, it's all the same once you get there. But so I thought, let me just audition. Sure. I had, usually I have two monologues. I had one monologue. Sure. I was also young and you didn't
3 (38m 49s):
Read the,
1 (38m 52s):
I did not understand the assignment. So I show up at a party and I'm do my monologue. And it went really well, even though it was probably a totally ridiculous monologue. It was above my head and the person the woman goes, that's great. And then I just stopped. Right. Cause I didn't have another monologue. And I said, and they said, do you have anything else you could show me? And I literally said no, but I could tell you some jokes.
3 (39m 21s):
See, I know it's a great idea. I think that was a great, I mean maybe he didn't know her that well, but I like,
1 (39m 28s):
And it was the truth and I, and they, she looked at, it was, it was, I did not get in there and I think they were all like what? She was like, what I, it was, she wasn't that I was on drugs. I wasn't, but she probably thought this child is on drugs. Like that's the only answer. So anyway, I don't know. But also they closed so no longer around. So you, okay. So you, so you did, you went to Russia?
7 (39m 51s):
I did. I went to Moscow and I studied like one of my teachers that I stayed with her father was Stanislavski student. I mean, it was crazy
1 (40m 2s):
My, oh,
3 (40m 3s):
Tell us everything about that program. It sounds interesting.
7 (40m 6s):
And I mean, considering what's going on, it's so sad in the world, but I always will hold my experience with the Stanislavski summer school and with it's my hot mess, Moscow art theater, very, very close because you know, I think as actors, NSX and students, we are delicate creatures and our confidence in ourselves and in our instrument and in our own talent is very, very delicate at all times. You know what I mean? And it really studying with them really made me fall in love with the theater and ma built me up and made me feel like, oh, this is what I'm meant to do with my life. And it just was because again, these, you know, the Russians, they, they don't give a shit.
7 (40m 53s):
They're all about the art. And they care about you as a, an artist. And
1 (40m 59s):
Did they not? Can I just say, were they not? Were they inclusive about body sizes? Oh, see, this is my problem. It's like what kid? Anybody fucking, not even in Moscow.
7 (41m 11s):
I mean, listen over there. It's definitely. But what I will say is my experience in classes and stuff, they just expected me to do it, you know, like,
1 (41m 21s):
Right.
7 (41m 21s):
My, my Grotowski admire hold biomechanics teachers. They were like, okay, now you will do backbend. You know? And I would just wouldn't do it. And it was like, okay, Catherine, now you will. You know what I mean? And so, and I, you know, I, we had this one teacher who re actually recently passed away. He was the most wonderful man. His name was Misha and Misha taught Michael checkoff technique, which I had never studied before I studied with them. And he was a lunatic, but like in the best, most beautiful way he would do this, this game with us called I love myself where, where he would have us run around the room, like crazy seagull.
7 (42m 10s):
And then while we're running around the room, like crazy seagulls, he is humming the theme to the godfather. So he goes,
1 (42m 18s):
It's fantastic. It's like what I did in my day program in therapy.
7 (42m 24s):
So he's going up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, and then he'd clap his hands and go number one. And you had to hug yourself and he goes, I love myself. And then he'd clap again. And then you have to run around again and he'd go bump up, Clap number two. And you'd hug someone and he'd go, I love my friends and Cutest. And like, he, I don't know, it was, it was a lovely experience. And I got to do Google. I was in a Google little, oh, Hey, I was in the inspector general. And I just felt seen by these teachers
3 (43m 5s):
Randomly, I don't know what the connection is, but they're in my town, which only has 30,000 people in it. There's a Michael checkoff like festival. Oh, I don't know if he lived here or I I'll have to look into it more Connecticut.
7 (43m 24s):
Is that because my grad school, Michael checkoff technique, professor Ragnar fry dog does a maybe
1 (43m 34s):
Greta. Steve. I bet it's gotta be connected. Ragnar and fry. Duncan
7 (43m 38s):
Connect,
1 (43m 39s):
Cover all connected.
7 (43m 40s):
Yeah. It might be. It might be there. It's somewhere up. I don't know. It might be,
1 (43m 46s):
Are you in New York city?
7 (43m 47s):
I am. I am in the city. Okay.
3 (43m 51s):
Okay. So you didn't feel prepared once you graduated. So what did you do?
7 (43m 56s):
Well, one thing that the new school, like I said, that they did, that was great. Was they taught us that we have to make our own work, which I think is true. I mean, I think, you know, and you know, I just been through this experience where I had to plumb all of this personal trauma to, you know, being in front of your friends to be an actor. I don't know. And there was a crisis in my family and I ended up using it and applied for an artist residency with Mabu mines. I don't know if you guys Mabee mind says
1 (44m 33s):
I don't, what
7 (44m 34s):
Is that? So Mabu mines is a theater company. That's been in New York city since like the sixties, seventies. And they're very experimental run by who has since passed away Ruth Mela check and Joanne Akalaitis and Lee brewer. Who's also, so they they're really into cookie, like experimental crazy theater. And so I got an artist residency with them right out of graduate school. And for a year developed my own place,
3 (45m 5s):
Something where you had to write a proposal about what you would be working on there. And, and you're, so you wrote something that was informed by a terrible thing that happened to you.
7 (45m 15s):
Okay. And so, yeah, I wrote a few
3 (45m 17s):
Minds saying anything about,
7 (45m 21s):
Because I wrote a play. So yeah. So I come from a very chaotic family. There's just all kinds of craziness. Always my father, who is much older, he was a doctor for nearly like 50 years, maybe 50 years. And he had this huge practice in this like shitty Podunk, back ass words, town and Florida. And he's very eccentric. He doesn't make friends, he's not politically savvy and was employing really ne'er do Wells to run his office.
7 (46m 4s):
And one of his nurses was writing counterfeit prescriptions
1 (46m 10s):
For opioids,
7 (46m 11s):
Opioids. So the, the, what is it? The DEA shut down his office and conducted an investigation for over a year while I'm in graduate school. This is going on. And then D couldn't get him on running a pill mill because he wasn't, but got him on insurance fraud, which I will tell you, actually, something that I do have done in the past no longer, but for a survival job, I've worked as a medical secretary. Every doctor concerns, insurance fraud and the
1 (46m 50s):
System, the system is set up for that. What are you
7 (46m 52s):
Talking about? So at the time, my 77, my in fact, my, was it my third year. Yeah. My third year of graduate school, my 77 year old father went to jail. Thank God he wasn't in there for very long, but we fought, he might be, he was held on half a billion dollars bail. Like it was insane how they went after him. And, you know, it's funny because I've been rethinking the project that I did because I was so fresh out of it. I essentially, I took because as he started me letters from jail, and then I realized he had been writing me letters since I, for like 20 years, he's a letter writer.
7 (47m 37s):
He himself is kind of insane. Like, he's, I love him, but he's, you know, and so anyway, I took all of that source material and I created a play out of it.
3 (47m 51s):
Wow. And, and I mean, presented for the public, right. Like people came to see it. How was it received?
7 (47m 58s):
I think it went really well. I mean, it was my first, you know, I, again, being unprepared, you know, coming out of graduate school, I didn't know a lot about promoting your own work, you know, I didn't know to write a press release and I didn't know to, but I did it with Mabu mines. And then I workshopped it in a few other places. I did it at Dixon place, which is another like incubator you're in the city. And then I did it in residency at the brick theater in Williamsburg. And that was, yeah, that was the last showing that I did
1 (48m 30s):
A solo show.
7 (48m 31s):
No, I had a hue. I unwisely had a huge cast. It was like nine all of us. Yeah. But it was like about because I'm from the south originally and it was about my family. And like the stories you tell yourself about your family versus reality versus very, yeah. It was, it was a great experience doing that. So
3 (48m 55s):
How have you continued to create your own work? I know you have a show, your own show, big girls. Is it called big girl?
7 (49m 1s):
It's called big girl. Yes, I, yeah. I really do enjoy writing and writing for myself. I think that, yeah, my experience has been more fruitful in writing for myself. Then, you know, the little parts you can get or, you know, yeah.
1 (49m 20s):
I want to let your, I just want to give you permission to let yourself off the hook for the publicizing of your thing. No, no. I need to tell you that I, when I did a solo show and it went to New York, I fucking paid a publicist $10,000 and they didn't do anything. So, so, so I'm just saying he, they didn't write a press release either and you were out $10,000. So was actually saying you saved $10,000. So you did good. Oh, wait. So Gina asked about like, yeah. So you have big girl is a, it's a, it's a show that is still is an ongoing, is it happening right? The second?
7 (49m 56s):
No, we, so we did. So the way big girl came around is that I started taking improv classes of all things. I hate improv, but I'm glad that I studied it. And I met my producers there in improv class. And I had written a play about body image and they came to see reading of it. And then we decided to do, let's do something together. We decided to write this web series. And so we, we worked on it from like 2018 through 2019.
7 (50m 37s):
And it's five short episodes. It's stories based on my life, but heightened about dating and just living as a plus sized woman in New York city, every episode is a different genre. So there's a clown episode, a black and white clown episode. That's episode three, which is my favorite of clowning is my favorite theatrical practice. I think I'm working on a clown show right now, actually, but clowning is my favorite. So what do you
3 (51m 7s):
Love about it? What do you love about coding?
7 (51m 10s):
I think that clowning is a way of celebrating your vulnerability and your ridiculousness. You know, I think that whatever makes you feel vulnerable is actually your superpower as a performer. It's the thing that people can see that connects us all to our, you know, terror of the abyss, right? And clowning is such a loving and gentle. Isn't the right word. It's, it's a very freeing way to just celebrate whatever is silly or weird about yourself. And if you can laugh at yourself, it gives the audience permission to laugh at themselves, you know, and it's also just really fun.
7 (51m 60s):
I, I have this beautiful clown professor, my clown, professor, Jean Taylor, she teaches at the Barrow group and that new school and over the pandemic, she reached out to some of us and was like, would you all like to do some zoom clown sessions? And let me tell you that saved my mental health, my like twice a month clown meeting it.
3 (52m 25s):
It was a picture of a clown school in zoom.
7 (52m 28s):
It is, I mean, we would just get into nos and we would do eccentric dance. And, you know, she would just have, she has something called go to my spot, which is like, as your clown, you find your spot. It's the whole thing. And, you know, we just made it work and it was, and we would create little, like a tubes as clowns that we would do for her. And it was, it's just, I just love it so much. It's just a, I don't know. It's like balm for the soul. It makes you feel joy.
3 (52m 59s):
And this is what happens when people feel left out of whatever's happening mainstream wise, as they go find a, like a little off shoot, you know, where, where any aspect of being different is is okay. Celebrated whatever. I mean, in a way it's like, okay, well, I guess that works out too, even though we'd like to be able to be included in mainstream stuff. Right.
1 (53m 21s):
Well, I feel like that's how all these theater companies that we adore love were made and then, you know, then it becomes something else that gets commercialized. And, but like, if you think about it, like a lot of, a lot of stuff in life, right. Comes from that. And like, I'm now writing feminist body horror. I know, I didn't even know that existed. It only happened because I just was like, okay, well maybe, maybe this. Okay. Fuck it. And then people are like, no, it's actually a genre. And I'm like, what? So like clowning was like, we can do this thing together and tell these stories. And people were like, oh yeah, that's good. And so then that it becomes a thing, you know, for years and years and years, so, okay.
1 (54m 4s):
So you, you, are you doing a clown show? Are you developing a solo clown show?
7 (54m 10s):
I have a co clown and a director and we are putting together a clown burlesque show.
1 (54m 19s):
I love that.
3 (54m 21s):
That sounds amazing.
7 (54m 23s):
It's going to be, I'm really excited. Yeah. It's going to be, we're just at the beginnings, like applying to festivals and things like that. And we're just about to start real rehearsals and
1 (54m 35s):
Oh, is it a scripted, like how does that work in terms of like, what, how what's your process like for us? So I don't know why I keep pushing you to do solo work. I keep asking if everything you do, I feel like I really need you to do a solo show. Apparently
7 (54m 46s):
I should do a solo show. I haven't before this
1 (54m 50s):
Do what you want. I just said, so it's a solo show. So you're doing your clown burlesque show. How do you write, is it scripted? Tell me about that.
7 (54m 60s):
That is a very good question. We are figuring that out because clown involves a lot of, I don't want to call it improvisation, but impulse it's like, you have to let your in order for it, to be honest, right? The clown clowns are my teacher put it this way. They're like cretins. They're very, they're there. Everything is very simple and they're idiots, but experts at the same time and you have to leave room for the unexpected. So our tactic right now is we're going to have a, a loose, an outline, like beats that we want to hit, let's say, but then to leave room for our clowns to play and do what they want.
3 (55m 47s):
I'm kind of curious about this thing you said about improv, because I also have the feeling that I hate improv, but only to say that I hate doing it, but actually if I was good at it, I wouldn't hate it. So what do you hate about it?
7 (56m 2s):
I am also not good at it. I get too, too in my I'm just not good at it. I get too in my head. I'm like, why are there so many rules? Why can't I ask questions? Why can't I just come up here and have fun? Why does there have to be a, what does the Harold, why do I have to go back to see the,
3 (56m 22s):
I mean, think that like, this is all just because a bunch of guys made up improv, right? Like what would it have been like if it was a bunch of women who, who developed the art,
1 (56m 35s):
It would be clowning and it would be, it would be something more beautiful. I mean, I just think the culture of improv is such garbage and I happen to love improv. I love, love, love it, but I love it because I'm scared because I do feel like you can do no wrong and improv, especially at like an improv audition for commercials and shit are my jam because there's no things to memorize and, and, and to be serious actors and not fuck anything up, but that does crossover into yeah. It, if you're in a culture and improv like school, the culture is there a lot of rules and there are a lot of stuff.
1 (57m 16s):
And also to be fair, you know, to be, or to be honest, there's a lot of drinking. There's a lot of drugging. It's just not my scene. And it's also really like a 22 year old white dudes see
3 (57m 25s):
Very fresh, very fat frat life,
1 (57m 28s):
But okay. So go ahead.
7 (57m 30s):
Wait, where was
1 (57m 31s):
I? Oh, no, it's me. I was just saying, go ahead. Either one of you. Cause
3 (57m 36s):
Well, I, I, I can't actually bring us back to what we were talking about before, but I can ask you, does new school do a showcase at the end? Can you tell us about it?
7 (57m 48s):
Sure. So it was, we did our showcase at playwrights horizons. We worked on our scenes for a semester and there were a lot of us in my class. So I got into graduate school, like at a time when people like right after the oh eight recession. So tons of people were applying to graduate school and they let 35 actors into our class. And so that was a big, obviously a big issue all through my graduate experience was what do we do with all of these kids?
7 (58m 36s):
There were, I think at least a good 10 people in my class who had no business. Like they just shouldn't have. And there were people who graduated from the most expensive. The, my school debt is so ridiculous. It's imaginary. There were people who graduated from my program who never stepped foot on a main stage.
1 (58m 56s):
We, why is it so fricking expensive? What's happening?
7 (58m 60s):
I it's the new school. I don't know. But yeah, it's the most expensive,
1 (59m 5s):
Never we're up. We've heard this before, by the way, at other schools Where the people never, there were people that graduated, maybe not an MFA, but like, there are people that graduated that were never in a show and I'm like, okay,
7 (59m 19s):
I would have, yeah. I,
1 (59m 22s):
Why weren't they at a show? They never got cast or
7 (59m 24s):
They didn't get cast.
1 (59m 26s):
I give him like a pity part. Like you're going to be Cinderella's step sister. And the,
7 (59m 31s):
I mean, they would be like in the chorus of something
1 (59m 34s):
That would have been me. That would have been me. I know it would've been
3 (59m 38s):
Me too. Me too, but was it for agents? And the showcase was for agents.
7 (59m 42s):
Yeah. Agents and managers. And I did two scenes from bridesmaids because bridesmaid said recently come out. So I did the airplane scene with, and then I did her, her monologue at the end about being in the CIA. I just love. And it probably wasn't wise of me to choose scenes from what, but I was like, fuck it. This is what I wanna do. I worship Melissa McCarthy. I think that she's I, if I ever met her, I would absolutely lose my mind. I just think she be,
3 (1h 0m 13s):
I think that was the perfect thing to do because right. Because the, the, the thing that bothered, I are always talking about that we never got is that we were supposed to think of ourselves as, you know, to be crass, like a product and what, you know, so what is our brand and what, you know, and we never did that, but that is what is required. So why is it not good to have done the Melissa McCarthy?
7 (1h 0m 36s):
I guess maybe I think you're right. I maybe I felt like I should have shown more range.
1 (1h 0m 42s):
They're not looking for range. Let me tell you something. They're looking to look at you seriously and now be in LA. I can really tell you looking at, oh, oh, she knows. She, she, she knows that we think she's going to be like the Melissa McCarthy character. Great. So let us just all get on the, the Melissa McCarthy bus with her, and then we can sell her that way. And maybe we'll all make a lot of money and be rich. Now look, I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying it was smart in terms of a business move. And please tell me you got an agent. Did you get an agent and a manager?
7 (1h 1m 15s):
Ah, I, I got one agent who freelanced with me for a minute and he sent me on two auditions in three years.
1 (1h 1m 31s):
Okay. All right.
7 (1h 1m 32s):
So
1 (1h 1m 33s):
Not good, not good.
7 (1h 1m 35s):
And that agent, I mean, I,
1 (1h 1m 38s):
What,
7 (1h 1m 39s):
He, it just,
8 (1h 1m 41s):
Eh,
7 (1h 1m 44s):
I'm worried because why?
1 (1h 1m 46s):
Okay. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. This is not about him. This is about your reaction. You don't have to, obviously don't say the name, but this is about your experience of what it was like to be that age and work with is someone in the industry. So tell it now.
7 (1h 2m 2s):
Okay. So from that point, yes, from that point of view, you know, number one, it, you know, I, I had one really solid audition. I didn't book it, but it was my first big audition in a big room. And I went in and I was prepared and I killed it. And I remember, oh, at PA, oh, oh wait, okay. It's back. Oh, you're
1 (1h 2m 24s):
Fine.
7 (1h 2m 25s):
Okay. Like froze for a
1 (1h 2m 26s):
Second. That's okay.
7 (1h 2m 29s):
I went in and it was Judy Henderson's office. She's a casting director. I killed it. And I had them all laughing. And I remember I walked out and I heard the director say, oh, that was really good.
1 (1h 2m 43s):
Yes.
7 (1h 2m 44s):
So that was such a win right out of an acting program. You know, I didn't get a call back. I didn't book it, but it was such a great, you know, experience. But then after that, and I emailed my agent to say, Hey, this was so great. This is what the people said, send, thank you, notes, all of that. But he like had this Facebook group for the members of the agency and he would have these mixers, Which, and I went to one and it made me so uncomfortable because it was like him. And then a bunch of like women, you know what I mean?
1 (1h 3m 23s):
Yeah. It's gross. That's gross. I don't know who you are, agents. So it's not a personal thing, but also that's gross.
7 (1h 3m 29s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 3m 30s):
It's weird. That's weird.
7 (1h 3m 32s):
And like also something that made me super uncomfortable would be that there would on the Facebook group, he would put up these statuses, like, you know, a word to the wise, never write an email to an agent like this deducted that dah, dah, and don't show up to an audition doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just in my head, I'm like, why don't you go get me an audition instead of spending your time? And like, there is no roadmap for young actors. None of us know what the fuck we're doing.
3 (1h 4m 4s):
Well, let's do mystify something right now for people who haven't gone through this yet. Why do some agents not get auditions for their clients?
1 (1h 4m 16s):
Oh, I know. I feel like, I feel like for what my knowledge is of working in casting and then also working as a writer and an actor, is that agents. Okay. So like, this is my understanding. All agents get the same breakdowns, right? And a lot of times for better, for worse they're thinking is I need to, I can't possibly do everything on this breakdown. So who are the people I know that are gonna, for whatever reason are top of mind that are gonna, that have a better, good chance of booking these things. And then they sort of gravitate towards that. And then a lot of people who aren't, don't look a certain way for whatever, get pushed to the side.
1 (1h 5m 2s):
And then I think we're also not as actors at our schools and in the world taught how to have a relationship with an agent that is on equal footing so that you stay top. This is what I teach my kids at the theater school, which is like how to build a relationship or get out of one. When you feel like it's not on equal footing where you can't, you don't feel like you can call or email the agent and say, Hey, I'm feeling like I'm not going out. Is there something that we can do together? Because we're so scared of the agent. We never make those, but I am. I think that is what happens.
1 (1h 5m 43s):
And then the fear begets fear. And then you just never hear from them again. Then they drop you or whatever. So it's a matter. So that's what happens. And, and agents, a lot of times, like the rest of us are traumatized and hurt and scared. And, and it's easy to take that shit out on younger people.
3 (1h 6m 3s):
So it's not what I was thinking. You were going to say, which is that if the agent is unknown, they literally cannot get their client. Okay. It's not that,
1 (1h 6m 15s):
I mean, I feel like they, I feel like S H certain agents have better relationships than others with casting, but everyone gets the same breakdowns. It's, it's a, it's a common document. So anyone, if we, if you, and I said, now we're an agent. We would get those breakdowns and we could start submitting people. And if you send a kick ass letter that says, Hey, Catherine is perfect for this. Look at our shots. Please see her, they'll see her because they want, Cassie wants to meet new, new, fresh faces that are kick ass. Like that's their jam. So, yeah, it's a matter of top of mind. And
3 (1h 6m 49s):
Well, since we're on the topic, I don't know. You mentioned this thing about getting a good relationship with your agent CA well, so Kevin, do you have an agent now?
7 (1h 6m 57s):
I am. Now I am looking for representation right
3 (1h 7m 0s):
Now. All right. You're looking for representation. A lot of people who listen to this podcast are recent graduates from theater school. I have my only experience with an agent is I'm helped my son with his stuff. And so I'm, I have a relationship with his agent. I'm very scared of this person. And when he doesn't like something we did just on my stomach. So like, what, I mean, you know, what, what do you do and how do you have a good relationship with an agent? Because it seems like they're all the hassle.
1 (1h 7m 31s):
No, no, they, they, it does seem like that. They're not all assholes, but I feel like a lot of them are, are scary. So inherent and Gina, Gina talks about this and Catherine, I want to know your thoughts. So, so we talk about the idea that like inherent in this industry is a pear is a patriarchal and like a, a status, right. Triangle, whatever hierarchy. So that creates a dynamic where the people that have, are seemingly having the more power are, are, are a little bit mean. It can be a little bit mean. So Catherine, how do you think, I guess my question for you would be like, what is your, maybe your experience with how to work with that and what are you looking to do differently this time when you have an agent, I guess, for the youngsters
7 (1h 8m 15s):
Listening? So my experience with them being mean, Or I just think that there is a, in my experience, there has been a feeling of being dismissed perhaps of, you know, yeah, yeah. You know, I do a lot of in the past, I've done a lot of there's this company here in the city called one-on-one, which there's another one that's called, like actor's connection where you can go and it, it kinda sucks. It's pay to play and you pay like a little fee to do a class with a casting director or an agent, or, you know, an opportunity for like a 10, 15 minute meeting with an agent.
7 (1h 9m 2s):
And I have met some success with that, you know, in the past, I don't necessarily, I feel a little morally repugnant about pay to play. You know, this is such a, I mean, the other thing along with the hierarchy of this industry is that it's predatory, you know, it's very predatory on the hopes and dreams of, you know, young actors. And so I have had tons of experience going into auditions for things. And, you know, it's like, oh, you have to pay to do this, or you have to it. And it's like, okay, well, fuck you, bye. I'm not going to pay you to work. But, and then what was the second part of your question about, oh, what am I looking to do differently?
7 (1h 9m 45s):
I mean, I think the thing is right, I'm a character actress. I'm a misfit, certainly in the industry. And I need to find someone who really gets me, gets my work. You know, I want to find representation that isn't necessarily trying to, and this is perhaps an unrealistic dream, but I, I would like to find representation that that gets my voice as an artist, and doesn't necessarily want to pigeonhole me. You know, for example, I will never, I'm very into body justice and fat liberation.
7 (1h 10m 30s):
I'm not gonna even say body positivity anymore because it's been co-opted by a skinny white women, but I will never make a weight loss, commercial that's not happening. And that might be a problem for a commercial agent who meets me, you know what I mean? And so I, so yeah, I, I would like to find a team who, who gets me and really, you know, wants to, wants to see me succeed in that, in the, in that way,
3 (1h 10m 59s):
This relates pause to our conversation earlier, just about contracting versus expanding. And I think that my mindset for certain, and maybe other people too, is like, you know, it's like kind of like how I used to be with boyfriends. If, just, if, if anybody likes me that I have to go with them because there's not going to be anybody else that likes me. Right. When in reality, It seems like the, the way to think about it is, oh, they need me because I know what I'm doing. And I have this look and I've seen people who look like me in this kind of thing. And there'll be lucky to find me because I can solve a problem for them.
3 (1h 11m 40s):
That's not how I've ever thought about it. I've thought about it. Like, I hope they pick me, but they probably won't. So if anybody shows me any attention, even if I have to pay for it, then the bus. Yeah.
1 (1h 11m 50s):
I mean, I think that's so right on. And I will say that. And I, I, I was that way for, and I still am obviously that way, but I found a team. I love my team, but it took me a very long time. And it took me to 40, I dunno, 44 to do that or 43. And it took me going in literally and saying, this is me, here's my body of work. I look like this. I want, I came in, I went in with a list of things in a piece of paper and what I brought to the table and what I expected from a relationship.
1 (1h 12m 35s):
And I had to be prepared that they were going to say, no, thank you. Like, this is crazy. Fuck you. But they didn't say that instead. They said, we, we support you. We've looked at your stuff. We believe in you. And we want to work with you. And that was all right. And then I found my person at that place. And when she left, I followed her. So it really is about relationships, but it's like, it takes a long check. My therapist, this, it takes a long time to do the work. Like it is not an overnight thing for most of us, especially those of us with bigger bodies or different or misfits, whatever you want to call it. However you want to say other, it takes a long time to find your people.
1 (1h 13m 19s):
I don't know anyone that is sort of othered that finds their people immediately, because that's why we're misfits. Like that's part of the deal is that we don't find our people. So I don't know. I also want to hook you up with my, like my Asian has an office in, in New York. So I will, I will see about that. So, oh my God. That's wonderful. Thank you. I mean, I'm happy to help, but the true thing is like knowing what I think you've said, which is like, we really, when I try, when we talk about branding, right? I try to impart to my students and to myself that like branding is actually not about what you look like. It is in the sense that we live in a fucked up society.
1 (1h 14m 1s):
But Brandy, what I mean is inside and out. Can you stand behind your own product Regardless of what those fuckers say? Yup. Can you, can you, at the end of the day, go, no, thank you. Like you're saying no, thank you. I'm going to go in another direction. Are you willing to walk away?
3 (1h 14m 21s):
You have to. It's a mindset change from I'm letting I'm letting anybody abandon me too. I will never abandon myself, but I might've been in these other people.
2 (1h 14m 39s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina
Intro: teenage hackers
Let Me Run This By You: setting limits with Kanye
Interview: We talk to Josh Sobel about Cal Arts, Travis Preston, Yale School of Drama, Robert Brustein, Fig and the Wasp, Oberlin College, The O'Neill Theater Center, Michael Cadman, Royal Shakespeare Company, Chicago ensemble theatre, Strawdog Theatre Company, Ianesco's Rhinoceros, Rochester NY, Brighton High School, A Chorus Line, Cabaret, horizontal hierarchies, The Wooster Group, change talk vs. change action, Chris Ackerlind, Light in the Piazza, Paula Vogel's Indecent, Samantha Behr, Haven Chicago, The Den Theater, Rochester Philharmonic, Lorenzo Palomo, Ian Martin, Hal Prince, Dr. Seuss' The Sneetches, John de Lancie, Rochester Academy of Medicine, radiation oncology, The Xylophone West by Alex Lubischer, Isaac Gomez's The Displaced, Center Theatre Group, Jeremy O'Harris' Slave Play, Rashaad Hall, Chris Jones' review of Ms. Blakk for President.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
3 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (32s):
I think, I think my son has fig he's gotten into sort of like the hacking side of things and he always wants to get around all of the restrictions we put on him. Like we have content restrictions, we have time limits. And I think he's just made it his mission. I mean, this is like the theme of his life. He has made it his mission to subvert the paradigm as my husband would say. And it's exhausting because all I can do is try to be like 10 steps behind them and learn like what's a VPN. That's what I, I think what he did. I think he installed a VPN to bypass the internet control that I have.
2 (1m 20s):
Oh
1 (1m 20s):
My God.
2 (1m 22s):
And it somehow how that relates to, I can watch, I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that if I turn off the wifi, I can watch it on my cellular data.
4 (1m 33s):
It's insane.
2 (1m 35s):
Yeah. It's, it's beyond insane. I, and you know, I like, I'm always on this thing where I'm vacillating between letting it go and just trying harder to, you know, impose the limit. I mean, you, I wouldn't, before I had kids, I would not have imagined it was this hard to impose limits on people, you know, because you don't want them to not have what they want. Right.
4 (2m 6s):
Right.
2 (2m 7s):
And, and it's a real battle to like, make myself, give myself and my children limits. It's really hard.
4 (2m 17s):
My God. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing I'm stuck on, it's like maybe there was okay. I think I'm like trying to figure out the thing, which is like, I know what I think I know what happened. So you have restrictions on content. Like, and I think a genius, the Kanye trilogy, like completely has all those triggers in it. Like all the things are in it. There's sex, suicide. There's, there's, it's all the things you, I wouldn't want a susceptible teenager to watch. Right. Like just for various reasons, not, not for anything other than triggers. Right. So like my nieces and nephew, the same thing, so, okay.
4 (2m 57s):
So then you set that right? And you're like, no, no, but then the kid or anyone can get a VPN, which then resets, I think the con, but I think you're still on the, you're still, you're still on the content warning site, which is blocking genius. You from watching genius. That is fucking, I mean, it's kind of genius in a way, but it's also so infuriating. It's like, come on, dude. I'm just trying to watch my fucking Kanye west bullshit.
2 (3m 26s):
It's literally just this race of like today I'm on top. And then the next day it's like, oh my God, they, they, they run the show. I'll never forget. There was a scene in the first season of the Sopranos where Tony and Carmel are having a problem with Anthony, or maybe it was with the daughter, a meadow and they're in their bedroom. And he goes, if she finds out, we have no power. We're screwed. And I laughed. It was the time I had watched it after I had teenagers. Yeah. Like that's what it is. We actually have no power. And yet the, the, the con that we're forced to do is pretend like we have all the power.
2 (4m 12s):
It's
4 (4m 13s):
Like
2 (4m 13s):
Covering
4 (4m 14s):
A metaphor also for life about like my mom's friend sent me something that said, you know, I forget it was like her friend had passed away and it's not fair and it's not fair. And I, and it isn't, and that's the thing. Like it, the truth is not fair. Like it sucks. But like, and, and we pretend that things are fair because if we don't, it's absolute chaos. Like if we didn't pretend really that red means stop and green means go, we'd have a real fucking problem. If we all rebelled and said, you know what, fuck you, green means go. And red means stop. And we all sent a mass media thing around.
4 (4m 56s):
There would be chaos. It would be
2 (5m 13s):
The bus. And I guess that's just the headline right there. That's like the headline in the story. Like you took the bus from LA to San Fran, Fran, because gas is so expensive.
4 (5m 22s):
Well, many things. Okay. So driving, it's really a grind on the five coming home, especially it's like, so rough, like, it can be a nine hour instead of five, six hours situation. It's crazy. Cause the five sucks. So, so that was the first like, and then gas. So I wasn't gonna drive cause I did the drive Thanksgiving and it was like, oh God. And then, so I was like, okay, well I'll, I'll just, I I'll fly. But then I'm afraid to fly. Even though the flight is literally 45 minutes. And then I was like, okay, but then because of gas, I said, okay, I'm going to just get my balls into it. I'm going to build up my balls and I'm going to fly. But then because of gas, you know, does jets use gas fuel though?
4 (6m 6s):
The flights really went up six San Francisco. You shouldn't even get a flight for a hundred bucks on Southwest round trip, like 120. No, no, two 20. So I'm like, oh no. So then I say, okay, well I'll take my Amtrak. Of course, which is actually what I, what I looked at first. But the track of it, it's a beautiful ride. It takes forever, but it goes up the coast and it's gorgeous. And you can like bid to get a fancy room,
2 (6m 28s):
Right? Yeah.
4 (6m 29s):
Well, okay. Well the tracks being repaired, so then you'd have to take a Greyhound. I'm not taking a Greyhound. So then I was like, okay, what would it take a fancy bus? And it's a flick
2 (6m 38s):
Of a fancy
4 (6m 39s):
Flex bus flicks. And Flix is big in Europe and they're charter buses and they have bathrooms and it's like assigned seating. And I bought two seats because I was like, fuck you. And it's so inexpensive, but still listen. I just, you know, and I worked, my dad was an addict. I have food addict issues. I get addicts. So don't come. People don't come at me for saying this. But the bus is a place where heroin, heroin, addicts thrive. Like that
2 (7m 9s):
Is the heroin addict doing on the
4 (7m 11s):
Bus nodding out. So there's two, there was a couple and I was like, oh, these are heroin addicts. They just looked so like, their luggage was all fucked up. They couldn't barely get on the bus. They were fighting young people, LA style tattoos. Fine. I am tattoos. It's not that they, but it was like this very specific look thin bedraggled, but not, not, not a curated look like more like, I'm just fucked up inappropriate clothing for the weather. Like big. Although in San Francisco is cold. Maybe they need something. I didn't know. They had like heavy coats on it's like 90 degree, all their shit. Right? Like they're, you know, I've got one little carrier. They've got like bags, like big things.
4 (7m 52s):
Okay. And that you can check, but you have to pay more for it. And their suitcases are falling apart. Okay. Fine. But they have cell phones, which is so, but a lot of people have cell phones. I mean, I I'm always shocked when people have cell phones that look like they shouldn't, I'm like, what? How do you maintain that? But anyway, so they get on an immediate, they sit in the, they got the seats in the way back, which is like a little bigger, but also your brother bathroom's gross, but they just not out immediately. They get on and like midfoot, mid fighting. They just like pass out and I'm like, oh my God. Like not out like out. And then don't wake up until we get there. Like literally it's an eight hour ride.
4 (8m 32s):
They don't get up at all.
2 (8m 35s):
Wow. They'd probably been awake. Yeah. Or I guess maybe not
4 (8m 41s):
How
2 (8m 42s):
It works with the
4 (8m 42s):
Heroin. Well, it depends like, I mean,
2 (8m 44s):
Not the heroin.
4 (8m 46s):
That's my new band name. That's our new band name. The heroin's got mics on two levels.
2 (8m 51s):
Yeah,
4 (8m 53s):
That was good. Gina. Okay. So no for me and my, my, my clients were a lot of them on heroin. And what would happen is like, you can't always get heroin. Right. Because it's expensive. And because I mean, it's cheaper than whatever, but it's expensive. And then, so you go without it and you start to detox and then you're up, you can't sleep. You're a mess. And then when you finally score again or whatever, get your heroin, then you just feel great for about half an hour. Then you pass out. It's just so it's such a waste, but okay. It's a process.
2 (9m 25s):
You know, although I would never want to be a heroin addict. I will say something like what's occurring to me. As you're talking about this couple is like, you know how with addicts, their life is very focused around just scoring or whatever. So to be able to have your life goals in these little chunks is really appealing to me.
4 (9m 47s):
Yeah. Well, it's a very, very, very specified job
2 (9m 52s):
World. Right? You make, I think when you're a heroin addict, you must have a really small world and your objectives are like, get score. That's at a place to
4 (10m 1s):
Sleep and don't get arrested and don't
2 (10m 3s):
Get, don't get arrested. Like there's something and I, I'm sorry to be cheeky about it. Cause people have really suffered with heroin addiction. I, I'm not suggesting that people, anybody should be an addict. I'm just saying like the idea
4 (10m 14s):
Yeah. To you. It's like, yeah, me too.
2 (10m 17s):
Actually even just the other day I was thinking I was watching somebody who had, what I imagined was probably a minimum wage job. And I don't remember what the job was now, but I just, I was looking at the person doing their tasks and I was thinking, yeah, maybe I should get a job like that. You know? And then 30 seconds in, I'm really trying to imagine myself. And I'm like, what am I talking about? Oh, people don't love working at McDonald's. Don't love, you know, whatever the
4 (10m 47s):
Jobs. And I will in, in adulthood in 30 dumb, in 40 dumb, like the last one I had at that fucking donut shop, I was like, oh, this seemed quaint. The chef was a jerk. I got in like a fight with the chef was so rude. Like here I am 42, right. Or 43 or something. And I was working at this place in Rogers park for like cash only under the table owned by these two young SIRS. They, whatever their business was working. But like the fucking chef was like talking shit about me. Like,
2 (11m 23s):
Is that a doughnut chef? No,
4 (11m 28s):
I should have said that. No, they also serve sandwiches. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I was
2 (11m 33s):
Just thinking to myself, like, do you have to be a chef?
4 (11m 36s):
No, that's hilarious. But she was like, or they were, they were talking shit about me. And I was like, oh no, no, no. And I was basically volunteering there. I was so outraged. I was like This person that
2 (11m 51s):
To read an essay about that, you've got, write an essay about your donut shop stint.
4 (11m 55s):
Oh, I will. And I want to name names. They were fucking assholes. And also they, like, when I went to confront the PR, like I was like, I like when you walk behind someone you're supposed to stay behind. Right. But if you've never worked in the restaurant industry that does not come naturally. And also I'm really fast moving. So like I just met, she goes, you have to stay behind. And I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna fucking kill you. And then she would under her breath talk shit to me about to the other people. And so, and so I finally, you get them, you get them every time, this way. So I pulled the owner aside and I was really upset, like crying because she was treating me like shit. And I said, listen, what the fuck is this? And then the next, the person wanted to then that the owner was like, look, this lady is doing as a favor by working here basically because we have no one and she's working on under the table.
4 (12m 42s):
So then the, the, the person wanted to talk to me, the chef and I talked to her, I'm like what? She goes, I'm sorry. If I come off a little, I go, oh no, no, you don't come off. You are. And I said, I don't know what's happening here. I'm like, just try to do my job and go the fuck home and make my money to pay my cell phone bill, bitch. Like I wrote that and then I just quit. I was like, fuck all. Y'all. So, no, it sounds really quaint, which is why I fucking get those jobs. And then you get in there and you're like, oh, this is how on earth.
2 (13m 11s):
Oh God, I am sure it was, I
4 (13m 15s):
Don't do
2 (13m 15s):
It. Yeah, no, no, I won't. I will not do it. It just, it just periodically, it just occurred to me
4 (13m 20s):
Because there's a set skill set set of tasks that no one eat you ma I imagine that no one is like on their high horse. No, no. People are still on their fucking high horse in minimum wage jobs. There's a hierarchy of fucking assholes anywhere you've.
2 (13m 37s):
But then I did get to watch the third episode of the Kanye documentary and then, okay, well, I didn't finish it though. I'm only like 20 minutes into it. It's so sad. Right? It's going to go on. It's going to turn
4 (13m 50s):
It. It does. But in also in an unexpected way, what I will say, I think we should talk about the third episode next time. Okay.
2 (13m 58s):
But
4 (13m 59s):
The first two, for me, fucking amazing in the storytelling, whether, regardless of how I feel about Kanye west, which I don't feel any kind of way other than, I mean, I just, I I'm talking about the, since we're about to make a documentary, right? Like I'm looking at, I love the first two. I love cooties filmmaking. And the first two episodes, it then takes a turn on the third, but like the first two are so packed with information and visuals and, and storytelling.
4 (14m 39s):
Like, I loved it. You and you also get a S he such a great job of like showing a slice of time, you know, and, and, and all the characters in it and real life people we know and get glimpses of. And I just thought, and for me, the most moving part of it, I mean, I have real lot of feelings about Donda and Connie's relationship and Donda herself. I have a lot of diagnoses for both of them, but I'm not, you know, like, I feel like she's got bipolar. Like, I think there's a whole thing going on there, but what I found, I have never, I have never been so moved for, for the hustle and the perseverance of a human being and the just sort of neutral and unwavering.
4 (15m 32s):
We know it's not really true, but like they're like, but the unwavered, what I saw was an unwavering unshakable, almost naive belief in oneself.
2 (15m 42s):
This is what I wanted to talk to you about. This is what I wanted to run by you. Cause the, the connection between talking about that, me working on the documentary and, and this a, I agree with you, Cody is an amazing documentarian. And we could totally learn a lot from the way that he weaved his own personal story into that, his relationship with this, you know, mega personality. But yeah, you know, the scene where he's talking to a bunch of kids and he's, he's talking about self-compassion, I mean, he, he has a point, you know, what, what should you, you created an amazing piece of art and somebody compliments you on it and you you're supposed to pretend like you're dumb.
2 (16m 29s):
You all, you don't agree that it's, that it's amazing. You know, like there's something to be said for that. And there's something to be said for what you're just describing the unshakable confidence, but I want to hear what your thoughts are about their relationship.
4 (16m 45s):
It was interesting to watch the process of what I would call a simultaneous process of infantilizing him as well as idolizing him as well as parental defying him, as well as believing in him. It's a combo platter. And I believe from watching her and watching what I noticed in her mannerisms and his that I think they both had a mania thing going on, like in her eyeballs. So I have become really good at looking at people's eyeballs.
4 (17m 26s):
And I notice in the documentary, as it goes along when Kanye is manic, his voice goes up in pitch and his eyeballs looked different and she had this eyeball situation, which is this sort of darty, Desperate eyeballs. And I noticed it in my clients all the time and I'd be like, oh, they're manic, they're manic. It's not an, and it's like, hypomania, it's not for her. But like, I saw that in her. And I was like, oh, like, what's happening? Where am I going? What's happening? Who can I okay. And, and covered with a bit of like, you know, self-help, you can do it this and perseverance, but it's, it's all a combo platter, but that was my take.
4 (18m 15s):
What was on their relationship was like a, I need you, you need me, what's happening. I'm worried about you, but I'm going to then hope that by, by really pumping you up, that I'm going to pump up the mental illness away.
2 (18m 31s):
2 (19m 14s):
I mean, really what it seems like, what he needs is a person who kind of use it as their sole purpose in life to, to, to support his genius, which is why he probably makes a terrible partner, But that the, she gave him like this, like she was mainlining love to.
4 (19m 35s):
Yeah.
2 (19m 37s):
And you know, he's unlikely to find that any place else. Right,
4 (19m 41s):
Right.
2 (19m 41s):
But he's still looking, I think, Well,
4 (19m 46s):
And then it's really interesting. So like Cody gave up his whole life to, to follow him and it wasn't enough. Like it, it becomes not enough. And then when the person literally is removed by death, then what do you do is what we're seeing in the documentary. But like the it's, it's a it's, it's so fucked up because I, I feel like from watching from the outside, she must've felt like she was his only hope. Right. Which is which, okay. Which I'm sure is it's
2 (20m 18s):
Hard to me was her only hope.
4 (20m 19s):
No, she was, she's like, I'm my son's only advocate. Right? My old, his only hope for love and happiness comes from me ultimately. And whatever went down in his childhood, I have to make up for what other, all of them, with the other, all the mothers stuff happens. Right. I can imagine. And then it's like, yeah, it sets him up to be, like you said, chasing that the rest of his entire life. And she's not going to be around forever. And she did the best she could. And she did so much compared to what a lot of people do. And he's, it's just, it, you throw in mega stardom in there and it is a recipe for absolute meltdown.
2 (21m 6s):
It actually, it really relates to the thing we were talking about when we started talking today, which is about limits and limit setting. And I think I mentioned to you that I'm also reading this book about Sandy hook conspiracy and the straight line between Sandy hook conspiracy and the January 6th instruction. But in the part of the book where they're talking about Adam Lanza and his mother, I hadn't heard this before that, you know, he, he he'd been flagged in the psychiatric system, you know, going back since he was a young boy and I don't know why she opted out of treatment for him. But what I do know from this book is that what she strove to do was keep meeting his needs wherever they were.
2 (21m 53s):
But because he was so mentally ill, his needs were things like w w when he had his, the intake at Yale, the clinician noted that he said to his mother, you need to stand with no part of your body touching the wall and that she just did it. And that at home, it had gotten too, there were things he couldn't have cooking odors, curtains, door knobs.
4 (22m 23s):
Yeah.
2 (22m 24s):
And she just kept meeting the need. And this was something that I really relate to. Hopefully I have not going off the rails like that, but when your child is suffering and what they're telling you is I want this thing, the decision to say, I know better than you. You think you want this thing, but that is not the right thing for you and for that child to be screaming in your face or not. But, you know, with all of their energy, all of their conviction, they're coming to you saying no, this with my kids, it's the screens.
2 (23m 4s):
No, I need my screen time. And I'm going. Yeah. But you, you can't know what I know, which is that you, it's not good for you. It's simply not good. And it's just so hard to tolerate when your child is enraged or hurt by you
4 (23m 22s):
Suffering the suffering.
2 (23m 24s):
So nobody said any limits for Kanye, and he's now floating like a balloon in the ether, right?
4 (23m 32s):
Yeah. It's, it's really bad. He's now he's now has restraining orders. And now he's got the Grammy said he can't perform there. So now the limits are being imposed that are huge. And I don't know what's going to, and I also, from working in Hollywood, what I noticed was it is so easy when you have money and power yeah. To, to develop a team that will, will do what you're saying. That, that Adam Lanza's Mrs. Or miss Lanza did. It's so easy to have that bought and built in.
2 (24m 15s):
And I will tell you this, my, one of my very most successful treatments that I did when I was at private practice therapist is I treated somebody with very, very severe borderline personality disorder. And it was a kind of situation where the client would quit all of the time, you know, quit, quit therapy. And then, and then you would do this dance of like, they, you know, they don't really mean it. So you don't, you don't give up their appointment time because they're going to show up. Sometimes they're going to show up and act like nothing happened. Like they never said they were going to quit. So with this one person that I've been working with for a really long time, and we had a good relationship, which, which is to say yes, she was very, very sick.
2 (25m 4s):
And she was very, very difficult, but also she had so many great qualities that it kept me. Like, it kept me really invested in her, but the 50th time or whatever it was that she quit after I, she was also in this group that I was running and she like got violent Sharna in the group and left and whatever. Anyway, this time around, when she quit treatment, I said, okay, we're done now. And then she showed up for her next appointment. And I said, no, we're, we're done now. And that precipitated a year long hospitalization for her, but this person is now doing amazing, honestly.
2 (25m 49s):
And I knew in her family dynamic, her parents were afraid to set limits with that because she was a very, very strong personality, but it was only through the limit setting anything. It had to go all the way to the end, right. For her and, and to, to reject and decry and be victimized and blah, blah, blah, for then her to like follow her dream College. She, she, I can't say what it is obviously, but she has a job that was the job of her dreams and that she learned, she only discovered was the job of her dreams in treatment and that she could have only gotten to do after having really had to contend with actually living with the limit.
0 (26m 42s):
Well,
3 (26m 55s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Josh
2 (27m 36s):
So Josh was just explaining the Cal arts is, I was saying, is it a conservatory? And he was saying, it's an art school in the truest sense. So go ahead and repeat what you're saying.
6 (27m 44s):
Yeah. So like Travis, who's an alum of like Yale back from the Robert Brustein days of Yale. He he's like, look, Yale school of drama is always considered like, Ooh, Yale school of drama, but he's like, if you think about it within the larger Yale structure, you've also got like the business school and like, you've got the journal, you've got the medical school, you've got all these things. So like within the theater universe, it's huge, but within the structure of the university, it Yale, you know, and so the beauty of Cal arts in a way is that it exists outside of that larger sort of academic structure. It isn't part of a university. It is an art school with a theater department.
6 (28m 27s):
And there's something that, that is really freeing honestly about that. And the Cal arts in particular sort of leaned into in terms of its sort of generative and, and experimental sort of Ben it's, it's been an interesting experience. Yeah, please.
2 (28m 45s):
Gina Bridget went there. Yes. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I think she's the another co Cal arts alum we have.
6 (28m 51s):
Well, and it's funny, cause you mentioned they were an acting alum and the acting program I have to say is in particular fascinating and unique. And I love it because unlike a lot of programs I've encountered and I've like taught in academia a little bit before I went in, before I started as a student in it, it's like very few programs encouraged teach and want their actors to be generative artists in their own. Right. And bring that to the table in the room. And honestly, as a director, I'm like, it's a gift. It is such a goddamn gift in terms of the collaborative process. Like I, I can sometimes when I'm hitting my own moment, like really feel comfortable being like, I need like a physical gesture representing a panic attack in slow motion that moves across the stage this way, take third, take 30 minutes.
6 (29m 44s):
Here's some music and an object.
4 (29m 46s):
Oh God, that sounds like the greatest thing I've ever heard.
6 (29m 51s):
I did something similar with a particular actor in my thesis show thesis show, quote unquote. And like she killed it. Oh my God. Avalon Greenberg call. She's about to graduate from the BFA program and she's, or a couple of years. And she's incredible. But like she ran with it and these actors are sort of prepared to take that and like, just make shit and be like, is this what it is? What does it need? And then I can sit there and like sculpt, we can then like work together to be like, Ooh, let's expand that moment out. Let's tighten that bit. And we're then working collaboratively on this other thing.
4 (30m 25s):
So amazing Josh, like, like I, I, I do this every time we talked to someone that I really like, and I like their vibe and I like how they're talking about their education. I'm like, oh, I'm going to apply there. And then I remember that I did apply to Cal arts for undergrad and I got a call back, which was like the greatest thing, because I was a terrible actor. And I like in the truest sense, like what you're talking about, I would have been like, so, so I am, so I am so glad to talk to you because I, when you say things like that, about how you direct as well, and I'm not a director, Gina directs, I don't direct, but like I want to work with someone who says shit like that.
6 (31m 7s):
Well, I, I really, I don't know. It's funny. I, you know, outside of like grad school, when I was in undergrad, I went to undergrad at Oberlin college, which is really sort of a diamond in the rough school for theater. It's like, and it's a lot of OBS do well out there. And it's weird because it's like, it's not known, but it's really good. But while I was there, I also did a semester at the O'Neill and I don't know if you're familiar, the national theater Institute. Yeah. So I, I did fall 2007 and like, I really lucked out my partner and I were a year apart actually, before we ever met weird small world, but we both walked out because we've got there right at the time as this particular artistic director was there, Michael Cadman, who was a, an alum himself of the Royal Shakespeare company.
6 (31m 52s):
And like he understood ensemble. It's funny. Cause I always like, what am I, I love Chicago and I miss Chicago so much, but one of my like little gripes with Chicago is that the word ensemble gets thrown out a
4 (32m 6s):
Lot.
6 (32m 7s):
And I, I have a very particular opinion about that because it's like, I think ensemble sometimes it's just meant to mean or thought to mean like a collection of actors, you know, or the company members, you know, the, the Steppenwolf ensemble or the straw dog or whatever. And I'm like ensemble is a value. I think ensemble is, is some it's about how one sits in the middle of a collaborative process. It's about how the threads are drawn. Not even just in the actors, it's about the threads are drawn outside to stage management, to producing, to designers, to everything. Like, and we're all coming together to sort of generate something together, right?
6 (32m 49s):
Like that's ensemble and Michael understood more than anyone I've ever met in my life. Like how to nurture, how to build, how to find the ensemble impulse in people. And he would just build semesters of the young students and sort of demonstrate that for for four months. And yeah, that's sort of been a foundational thing from that point forward. So I'm, I'm always ready to like chill for the O'Neil. Like, I love the, I love being,
2 (33m 16s):
Yeah. I actually live kind of near there. I live in Connecticut. Yeah. Oh, that's
6 (33m 21s):
Brilliant.
2 (33m 21s):
So you just made me think about something. Has any group of theater artists ever called the ensemble? Also the, the whole entire staff, like everybody on crew, because it is such a group effort. And we as act, this is one of the big things about, you know, going through an acting program, you just, and maybe it was just me, but you just think like, it's all about this. It's all about the actors and you just think everybody else is there supporting what you're doing.
4 (33m 55s):
Well,
6 (33m 56s):
It treats it like a technical term, right? It's like, it's a category. And rather than like, no, it's actually about an energy. It's about a trust. It's about something else. And I will say to answer your question like that w when I was a strong dog ensemble member, that that was one of the things I loved most about being on the straw dog ensemble was you had designers, you had managers, you had people like from every aspect of the creative process, sort of understood as part of the ensemble. It was all framed that way.
4 (34m 24s):
It's interesting. Like, I feel like what happens maybe is like, so take Steppenwolf because everyone talks about Steppenwolf as the original ensemble, which really you're right. A side note tends to mean in Chicago. And I can say this because I'm from there means that nobody is prettier or more famous than, than other actors. Like, that's what they mean by ensemble. Like that's how people talk about that. They're like, no, this is an ensemble piece. Meaning that even though you're really pretty, you're not going to be the star, like to someone, they never say that to me. You know what I mean? Okay. But anyway, side note, but ensembles. So when it's interesting, because it's like when a theater gets bigger, meaning a broader audience, more money, I feel like there becomes a really strong, clear delineation between technical staff and the actors.
4 (35m 15s):
And it comes, becomes compartmentalized probably because they have to run a freaking business with a multimillion dollar budget as we're like straw, dog. Like you can kind of stay it's like that storefront. It kind of, you can really get in there, which is how stepping will start it. So I think what we're talking about is the capitalization of the,
6 (35m 33s):
Oh, always, I mean, honestly, always all the time,
4 (35m 37s):
But yeah, but I'm, I'm curious about she and Gina, did you say
2 (35m 42s):
I did and I'm so sorry. I forgot to say Josh Sobell congratulations. Your surviving theater school. You're almost done
4 (35m 49s):
Art school theater school, you know, it's all the thing, but yeah. So I wanted to ask, I guess, take it back before I get on the runaway train of like, did you start out as a direct, like where you would act what's what was your path to the school of Cal arts? I guess
6 (36m 7s):
I've, I've been a director most of the time. I of course did a little bit of actually got rather late. Like I'm not one of those people who was like really involved in a lot of things when I was really, really little, but I had sort of a formative experience in high school as an audience member. My school was really remarkable. I, I unfortunately should catch up with them and see what they're doing in their theater department. But at the time, like we were a high school that was doing like Ian ESCO and Tom Stoppard and shit. Like, it was pretty cool. I assistant directed rhinoceros my senior year of high school, like Steve Rochester, New York, right in high school, shout out to Steve angle, Mr. Angle.
6 (36m 47s):
He was incredible. He also was the AP lit teacher and ran an incredible AP lit class. Like, oh my God, we, we read and watched just incredible stuff. And so actually his show, but he was one of the other directors there did chorus line and they did like an unedited chorus line in high school, which I also very much admired. And Paul's monologue hit me like eight when I don't know how familiar you are with, with the show. But like, you know, it's a classic Broadway, 1970s. It was sort of groundbreaking at the time because it was all real interviews of people who were all fighting chorus.
6 (37m 27s):
Of course, Paul Paul's monologue when he sort of finally breaks down and tells the story about his, his parents meeting him at the drag show in the back of, I lost it. Like I was a weeping mess. I don't know. And I had not had that particular experience before. And I walked out, I remember going home nerdy, like misfit fucking high school student hadn't found themselves yet and was like, I feel different. I don't know how I don't, I can't quantify it, but I feel like I am moving through the world differently than I was before I had that experience.
6 (38m 8s):
Wow. I want to do that. And that was, that was the moment. And so I started auditioning a little bit, but I always got interested in directing because I, it was the idea of like creating that holistic experience for an audience member, the way it was created for me. And so we also had, I think it was like an official partnership, like you could license with the 24 hour plays in New York. So my high did the 24 hour plays every year. And so I would stay overnight at the fucking school and, and do and direct. And that was sort of my first directing configuration. I was terrible. God. And my first few shows like first few shows at Oberlin were terrible.
6 (38m 55s):
Why, why? Oh my God, too, in my own head, I'm still too in my own head. It's the main thing I'm working on. I'm a very cerebral artist and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I just am seeking balance. That's part of the reason I went to Cal arts and Kellogg's was actually really the right choice for that in a lot of reasons to sort of break down some of my more cerebral and rigid habits. But I just didn't like, I, I was in my own way. It was that classic. Like it, my insecurity, I was second guessing. I was, it was actually Michael Cadman. It was the O'Neil. That was the turning point of that as well. So like I, anyways, I went through high school, got into it, went to Oberlin, was sort of jumping between theater and film got focused in theater because I liked the linearity of the process.
6 (39m 40s):
It just fit my brain better. You can really build the Dominos in order and watch them fall. And I love that from a process standpoint, joy. And so I went to the O'Neill and I was still like, I was overthinking and I was over like complicating and convoluting and Michael Cadman who I'm the final day of the program. I was like, you asshole, you couldn't have said this to me like weeks ago. I'm the final day of the program was like, you're very, very smart stop trying so hard to prove it.
7 (40m 19s):
Ah,
6 (40m 20s):
And that was, that was another game changing moment for me. And I, I started sort of stepping back and letting myself have more fun with it and just found myself sort of like what were my passion projects? What were the things that made me feel the way I did it, chorus line in a way. And my first show back in undergrad was a cabaret. And that was, that was a really huge, huge show for me. And I was very proud of that show and still have, like, I watched the video sometimes I was like, oh God, those transitions fucking suck. But, but yeah, directing, directing has always been sort of my thing because of that idea of like, I get to sort of, I don't know.
6 (41m 4s):
I, I, it's funny because so many people think about directing in this very hierarchical standpoint, right? Like they like the sort of like top-down, they get to sit at the head of the thing and create their vision. I challenged that constantly. And it's funny because people think by challenging that you give up the sort of directorial authority I call bullshit. I I'm interested in what I like to refer to as horizontal hierarchy. I say, I refer to it. I didn't invent the phrase, but like I've sort of taken it and I really love applying it to collaboration. I like the idea that as the director, I'm sort of sitting in the middle, I'm the same plane as everyone else surrounded by all of these brilliant fucking artists.
6 (41m 48s):
And I get to be like, Ooh, yes, it's a bit of that. It's not quite that. Can we bring it over there? I, yes, let's bring that in and pulling all of it towards the middle. And I still get to, by virtue of being in the center of a doll, just make decisions I get to make, be the arbiter of the quote, unquote vision or whatever you want to call it. But it's not that it breaks down the hierarchy in a way I'm not above anyone else that doesn't have to be my idea. It has to be the coolest idea. And so by sitting in the middle of it, I just get to sort of help tie the threads together in a way that feels like the audience experience we're going for. Like, that's my job to God.
4 (42m 30s):
Interesting. So it's so, oh yes. And I'm so curious as to why more directors don't do a horror. Is that, is it just an ego thing? A horizontal.
6 (42m 47s):
Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of like, I'm not even going to call it insecurity. Cause I actually think that doesn't do it justice and I think it's too easily dismissible. I think it's fear. I think there's a lot of fear. I mean, if I'm really Frank, I'm confronting it in certain areas of my program right now.
4 (43m 25s):
Okay. Wait, so you're saying that I just want to reiterate for my own brain because this happens all the time in all organizations across the board. So I'm really, and we're like, we were talking about it yesterday sort of. So, so you, you, you, there is an atmosphere of like, we want to make change, right.
6 (43m 43s):
Faded a stated goal,
4 (43m 46s):
Right? Not an atmosphere. Okay. So a stated goal, which a lot of theaters that I am familiar with and institutions are making these statements right now that the statement on paper or on the web or wherever it is saying, we want to take your feedback and make change. And it usually revolves around the word change. Like we're open to change. And if we're always, if we're honest, nobody's fucking open to change. We fucking,
6 (44m 14s):
And that's what we're talking about. It's the same fear to me. It's the same fear that you find in directing. It's a fear of some, some kind of loss of authority. It's a fear of some kind of loss of control. It's the fear of, I don't know. And it's so funny, like all of the ways you encounter it, because then yeah, you go and you actually say, here's the thing. And like I did this recently and I got yelled at, I got, and again, I've been, I've been working in Chicago theater for a decade before this. I don't give a shit. I was an artistic director, right. Like I was artistic director of Haven, Chicago. I don't like, this is, I don't need your ego. So I think it was actually kind of fun.
6 (44m 56s):
I think whether it's directing, whether it's artistic directors and institutional leadership, whether it's corporate leadership, whether it's, it's all of this, it's, it's, it's a full each year that, that somehow you're going to lose your Control.
4 (45m 10s):
This is so classic in, in terms of, so Gina and I were both therapists for years and look, and obviously we were children of parents. So I would go to my mom and say, this is the exact same thing. I would go to her and say, Hey mom, you're pretty abusive verbally. And she would say, but I'm the best mom. I know how to be. And at least you're not being beaten. Like I was beaten. And I'm like, okay. Yes, true. That all that is true. I, and you're still abusive to me. You're hurting me and sh and whether or not you want to make changes. That's the thing.
4 (45m 50s):
So we, we are literally reenacting parent child relationships in every walk of life. Like this sounds like a conversation a kid might have with their father where the father is like, well, I provide, we we're great.
6 (46m 8s):
And it's not about perfection. Like, it's not about like everyone and just like, we're all human beings. Right? Like I, I never wanted to feel like, and that's sometimes my problem with like, like I'm, I'm as left to center as you can get in a lot of ways, but it's like my one problem with sometimes a lot of left wing stuff is w where it's like, I think there is a purism that sometimes get, gets into it. And it's like, no, like we're all fucking human beings, right? If we believe in the ability to change and restorative justice and all of these things, then we have to actually believe that people can improve and get better. But it's like, there needs to be that honest interest in improving and getting better. There needs to be that genuine interest in it. And it's like, it's one of the things I was really proud of that we built it at Haven in Chicago with
4 (46m 47s):
Such a great theater. Gina Pavan is amazing. We're going to be there in the summer. So maybe we'll check it.
6 (46m 53s):
Ian Martin, like it's so funny. Cause it was such a, it was also a gift to really be able to do a transition process with Ian, you know, cause we really tried to be in, I've been part of some really unintentional transition processes. So like there were a lot of reasons where I really felt like Ian was exactly like, not, it wasn't even about sustaining what Haven had been doing. It was about how do we build and evolve on what Haven had been doing. And so Ian was sort of perfect. And we built the structure that you don't see very often where I, he was, yeah, he was my art, my associate artistic director for half the final season. And then we switched and he became artistic director and I was his associate artistic director for the other half of the season.
6 (47m 36s):
So he could have the responsibility and be in the decision-making position, but have the institutional memory sort of right at hand. And then it's like, and then I step away. So like I bring that up because there was an intentionality that we tried to bring to, like, we're going to be a theater company, let's be a theater company. Like you mentioned the business. Like let's, let's try to be a business, but let's try to be a next generation business.
2 (48m 2s):
And by the way, statements statements are to change as you know, sex is to relationships. Like it's a good start, but like you have to do more
6 (48m 12s):
Exact than just exactly.
4 (48m 13s):
So I guess the question is, what is it for me for me anyway? What is it in you, Josh? That is the kind of person because what is it? And there's a reckoning, obviously that I talk about a lot in, in terms of American theater and theater in general and the movie industry, the reckoning that's coming or in is, is that part of your drive right now to do this? Or it sounds like you've always been this sort of way, but why the fight? What, what, what about the fight?
6 (48m 43s):
Yeah, I think, I think, I think it's got it. That's such an interesting question because it's making me think in a chicken egg way, like is my ethics and my politics, like in here, like I don't know, the weirdest thing just came to mind and I'm going to follow that impulse.
4 (48m 58s):
Great.
6 (48m 59s):
Do it. And forgive me if I get a little bit emotional right now, it's it's my dad. If I'm really being honest, my dad is actually, he's not in the arts, but he's very artistic. He's a cellist. He's a musician. His odd actually, if you go to the Dem theater in Chicago, where Haven is the space that Haven exists in is the Bookspan theater specifically, the Janet Bookspan theater. Janet Bookspan is my aunt, his sister who was a major opera director, vocal coach, teacher, performer, actor assisted how prince back in the day, like holy
4 (49m 40s):
Shit.
6 (49m 41s):
Yeah. So like, and I have it on my mom's side as well, but my mom actually is an artist. She's a painter, but my dad, my dad is a radiation oncologist. He's a cancer physician, but music and art has always been a very big part of his life. His family, my life, he actually sidebar. Cause this is just a fun thing. And I hope this gets included. Cause I love bragging about this. My dad talk about politics and, and art colliding and art ed creative ethics. My dad has always been a big fan of Dr. Seuss's the snitches, this exists. You can go online. It's amazing. I'm so inspired by this. He was part of the Rochester academy of medicine and they have this amazing old building that has a roof.
6 (50m 23s):
That was basically, it's like a mansion that was donated and it's got this that was built for chamber music. And he developed relationships with the Rochester Philharmonic re developed friendships with musicians and created basically a chamber trio to play at the Rochester academy of medicine. And through this met a composer as Spanish composer, living in Berlin, named the Lorenzo. Palomo, who's pretty bright. His music is pretty outstanding and ended up commissioning a piece of music for this trio. And one thing led to another. And we found out that since my dad was young, he had believed that Dr.
6 (51m 6s):
Seuss is the snitches one. It was one of the most impactful, universal and effective lessons about acceptance and like anti-racism that you could find. And it was always his dream to have a piece of music, Allah, Peter, and the Wolf that was composed to be performed in tandem with a narration of Dr. Seuss's the snitches. So you can license this now on music theater international, because he did it. He commissioned Lorenzo to compose a piece of music for Dr. Seuss's the snitches. And we also by hooker by crooked premiered at my Alma mater at Oberlin and has since played around the country actually.
6 (51m 52s):
And I believe internationally. And, and it was all because he wanted to spread the message. It was because he wanted to use art to create an anti-racist piece of art. And the other cool thing is through a connection with his niece who ran the department of cultural affairs in Miami Dade county. She had a connection to John Delancey, who you might know as Q from star Trek, the next generation who did the original narration, the premiere. And so actually it's all on YouTube. You can hear John Delancey doing the speeches. And so like that's an aspect of my dad right there.
6 (52m 33s):
Another aspect was that I'll never forget this story. He actually built, he in Clifton Springs, New York built the cancer center, finger lakes, radiation oncology, because there, you know, there was a large elderly in particular community out there if I recall. And so, you know, as people are getting later in life, you know, biology happens and access to cancer treatment was non-existent except like 45 minutes or more at least minimum drive out of the way, if not hours out of the way. And especially as you're getting older, that becomes less and less sustainable for radiation treatments, for chemo treatments for all of these things.
6 (53m 15s):
So he found funding and worked his ass off as I, in some of my youngest days and built this cancer center from the ground up. And there was a day that I remember very distinctly hearing this story where as we've all been in any doctor's office, they were just running like, you know, three, four hours behind and sorry, I get emotional tug this story. It's so funny because it's like, that's, that's my true north in a way. You know, he, he sent his technicians out. This was back in the day when like Rent-A-Center was still a thing and blockbuster and shit, and like went out to get like sent them out to get like a television, sent them out to get a bunch of movies, sent them out to get like a sandwich platter and just showed up and basically were like, Hey, we're sorry.
6 (54m 11s):
We're we know we're running behind. We just want you to know, we haven't forgotten that you're here. You know? And like when does that happen at a doctor's office? Like when has that ever actually happened? Right. That's my,
2 (54m 27s):
Not for nothing, but my dad sold x-ray equipment. I've met a lot of radiation oncologists, and it's very unusual. Like there tends to be kind of a personality type with people who go into radar and it, it's not that what you're describing. So your dad must be a really remarkable person,
6 (54m 45s):
But yeah, no. And so I think it was a values thing. If we really want to talk about it, it's a values thing. It's, it's, it's a sense of how can we make this better? Like how can we be people first? How can we like again, we talk about Haven, right? One of the things I used to say, and I, and I would try, I tried to work hard to embody was like, oh, sorry, this does plug into our original conversations to bring it back perfectly on topic. One of my first shows I did in Chicago, I did a production of a play called xylophone west by Alex
6 (55m 26s):
And like, we, he was actually, when I was the associate director of the summer Oneal program, he was a playwriting student when I was associate director. And that was our first. So it's cool. Just like, as we've sort of grown together, it's been amazing. And we did a reading of it and I, we have very strong opinions, especially because of the O'Neil being sort of a hub of new play development about what new play development is. There's a lot of bad, new play development. There's a lot of bad talk-backs, there's, there's a lot. And really it comes down to the difference between responsive feedback versus prescriptive feedback and how to cultivate that and understanding the difference.
6 (56m 6s):
And these, this artistic director did not understand this. And well, similar to what we're talking about, we were like, Hey, can we structure the talk back this way? Can we, this would really help Alex, Alex would say, this would really help me, like understand my play better. And artistic director's response was, I'll never forget this. Just remember who's the employer and who's the employee.
4 (56m 34s):
Right, right,
6 (56m 35s):
Right,
4 (56m 35s):
Right.
6 (56m 36s):
Case in point to everything we're talking about. And so like, I, it's sort of, when I think about like the sort of challenge to, sorry, I completely lost my train of thought.
4 (56m 49s):
No, no. What we're talking about is no, no, it's fine. It's when we're talking about a lot of things.
6 (56m 53s):
So
4 (56m 54s):
That's okay. What we're talking about is like this whole idea of like that your mentor wasn't your mentor anymore and why people don't want to change and the message versus what is actually happening in.
6 (57m 6s):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to remember why I specifically brought up xylophone west, but it was like this idea of, I don't know. I think about this, this, I owe my, my dad my values. Yeah. Value system. That's right. Thank you. I just needed to hear about, yeah. Yeah. It's a value system thing. It's like, that tells me what that person's value system is. Right. That tells me sort of the culture that they built. And for me as at Haven, sort of taking a note from my dad, right? Hey guys, that you're here. We see that you're here. The way I would phrase that as an artistic director was like, yes, you are our employees. Let's be like, it's not that, that isn't real. Like we are, you were signing a contract to work for us.
6 (57m 49s):
We have expectations based on their contract. You are also a guest in our home. And that is our responsibility. Like as leadership as a company, as an institution, as a director, like you are, you are a guest in our home. This is our home. We are responsible. Especially if we want to talk about mentorship in academia, some of us are paying $50,000 a year,
4 (58m 14s):
Right.
6 (58m 15s):
Be in your home. Like you have all of the control of this space. You can, you can make this, whatever you want it to be, and we're paying you to exist inside of it. And, and it becomes a question for me of how do you take that responsibility? Like what if, whether it's an academic responsibility of like, we are literally paying for the privilege of this, or in a professional standpoint where it's like, it's, it's a little bit in the reverse either way. It's like you are in the position of power. You are in the position where you can like build culture that I use, that I find that word comes up a lot. When I rant about this, which I rant about
4 (58m 53s):
Culture, building culture,
6 (58m 54s):
Building culture, whether it's academic, whether it's professional, like that's the responsibility. And if you don't take that as the responsibility it's so,
4 (59m 3s):
Okay. The, the, the other thing that I was going to say is you had a moment where, so I have these moments where I say to myself, usually not out loud, but you kind of almost said it out loud, but you didn't either. Which is I say, my mama did not come to this country as an and work her ass off for this shit. And your moment was, my dad did not build a fucking radiology oncology center and then get Rent-A-Center furniture and sandwiches for me to be doing this shit like that is that moment. Well, I think, well, that's what I heard there. Everyone has a line and a true north of like, wait, wait, my legacy is not going to be, this is not going to be not saying anything to you.
6 (59m 47s):
And legacy is, is something I think about sometimes, but it's like, it's not even about that per se. It's like, I see what it means to people. Right? And like, if, if we believe in our own bullshit, like, especially as artists, you know, because artists are, are at the forefront of talking a lot of shit about like empathy, right. About community, about humanity, about seeing each other about uplifting each other about making the world a better place. And it's like, well, that's all well and good. But like, are you like how? And it's not even just like, again, like there's so many ways to do it, but I think sometimes we take for granted the small ways of doing it.
6 (1h 0m 29s):
I think sometimes we take for granted the like, what if we just buy everyone dinner? What if we like make a concerted effort to pay people a little bit better? Like, what if we, what if we show our work in that? Like, what if we actually believe in the transparency that we add? Like so much, like we talk about transparency so much in our industry, like, or rather not in our industry, I should say like artists talk about transparency in the world, right? Like we want corporate transparency. We want more governmental transparency. What are some of the least transparent motherfuckers?
2 (1h 1m 4s):
Yeah. I feel like I know why that happens in theater too. It's because there's no money. So everybody goes into it with all of their, like very theoretical and ideological approaches. And when you get very cerebral, very theoretical, you forget about things like, oh yeah, people don't want to do 10 out of twelves anymore because it's, it's, it's too fatiguing. And it actually works against the thing that they're there to do, which is create a new each performance, like being able to offer something fresh each time. So it, it, that is actually an area in which it's helpful to think about theater as a business.
2 (1h 1m 47s):
Because if this, if you were running a seven 11 and you had an employee, you'd have to have a bathroom, like it's, you know, you just think about the pragmatic things more when you're thinking about it as a business.
6 (1h 1m 57s):
Right. And, and it's like, I, and for me, it's like a lot of these things are considered mutually exclusive for some, or they're treated as mutually exclusive, but like, you have to, it's like the business and the sort of like cultural, ethical side, somehow don't mix. And I just don't agree. I don't agree for a lot of reasons. I don't agree in part through the Haven experiment. You know, I it's like, look, we, we're still not making money. And we, we, I want to say we were very privileged to have particular financial support. I don't want to take that for granted that we were not starting in the same place as a lot of other people. And I, and I don't take that for granted. It's not a brag. It's like a, like the bootstrap Smith. Like I want to make sure that it's not like, you know, taken for granted, but it's also like, there's still this idea that people won't show up sometimes like that, like literally I've had other artistic directors talk to me about Haven work in Chicago being like, what are you sure there's an audience here.
6 (1h 2m 53s):
I'm like motherfuckers. We just sent like 15 people away at the door for Isaac Gomez, horror play. But no one else would produce like, like why, what are we it, and those decisions are made because of business, right? Because, because how are we going to sell it to Chris Jones? Because like, how are we going to, and I, I, we found time and time again, that there is an audience for this work that we were able to at times even make money on, like compared to what we, what our show to show budget work. We were able to make money back, like, and we were paying people, you know, it still stipends, you know, not what they're worth. I don't want to pretend we were ever able to pay people what they worth.
6 (1h 3m 35s):
But we were able to pay people, usually double the typical storefront stipend it's like, and, and still keep ourselves on a typical like budget that I was used to for other storefronts. So it's like, it's this question of like, why are these things treated as mutually exclusive on a bigger scale? Look at center theater group right now, an article just got written. I got to see slave play out here, which amazing production also Chicago, shout out. I got to see cause he's under studying. And I got to see him perform that night. Rashad hall. Brilliant, brilliant. And his
2 (1h 4m 11s):
Shot
6 (1h 4m 11s):
Is brilliant. Oh my God, his Phillip just broke my goddamn heart. Oh my God. He was so good. That's a show that is deeply controversial, deeply challenging queer by PAC sexual BDSM oriented, racist, racist, racist, or in terms of its its topic matter like racism in the United States. And historically, and today it's it's and they gave away like 5,000 or more like free and discounted tickets. And they still made money.
2 (1h 4m 48s):
Jeremy DOE he recently just put something up on social about this that he made. He made accessibility like the most important feature of his, you know, this play being produced and it worked and it worked better still made money on this scarcity model, which is, I mean, that's a lot of this just comes from the scarcity model, influencing how everybody feels. So constantly afraid of losing the one little sliver of the pie that they have that, you know, all they can think about is how to make that tiny little sliver. How to divvy it up instead of saying no, how can we get more pie people? We want more pie. We want to just keep getting our tiny little slivers we want, we, we want to add.
2 (1h 5m 28s):
So I'm mindful of the time because I know we're about 50 and we're going to be having to wrap up and I want to hear about it's your last semester and you're working on a project and you're going to have spring break next week. What is your, is it a thesis? Is that, is that,
6 (1h 5m 43s):
That, that was actually last semester. That last semester. Yeah. That's so that's done. I've I've kept myself a little bit busy. I don't know. I, I found myself strangely in spite of the pandemic lab, maybe because of the pandemic last year and now being back in in person and, and all of that. I just, and also I think because of like big was amazing and like my designers were incredible. The students here are unbelievable, but it was also because of some of the things I shared, like an exhausting process, excuse me. And so I sort of took a break and then got into the semester and for some reason just was like, I want to make shit. I want to be involved in making shit.
6 (1h 6m 24s):
I want to, I want to be involved in my own shit. I want to get involved in other people's shit. I just want to make shit. And so I'm like, I just finished up working on a collaboration with a doctoral student in the music school where we created a, I worked with a lighting designer and we worked collaboratively to create a light based sort of design journey, like a sort of light experience in conversation with the music called busking style in real time, as part of his doctoral thesis.
2 (1h 6m 60s):
Wait, you're saying it was busking like that the project was
6 (1h 7m 4s):
The, the style of, of calling the lighting. Was it wasn't like, it was sort of like, Yeah, it was a, yeah. So it was board op up in the booth watching and listening for particular moments. And the music was also highly improv. The reason is because the composition had moments of high improvisation. So there were moments where it was literally like just listening for certain things to shift the lighting responsibly to the music as it was happening. And it was just something I had never done before. So I'm like, let's try this out. And then I'm, I'm drama turking and assistant directing a play that an acting MFA student who's a dear, dear friend has written in his performing it.
6 (1h 7m 48s):
So I can be sort of the outside eye while she's on the inside of it. And then I might have another project cooking for right before graduation. I'm I'm figuring that out right now. And then I've also got things outside. I'm thrilled to say my partner is actually going to be going to USC for film school next year. So she and I are actually working collaboratively on a couple of things with another acting alum from, from Cal arts, actually a which I'll be able to share a little bit more, actually there's some stuff online with little like BTS stuff it's called goon and I'm actually really pumped about it. Yeah. I'm really, it's, it's, it's super fun, super quirky.
6 (1h 8m 30s):
We found a great cinematographer. Right. We shed who's just has an inspired eye. And so, yeah, just, I don't know, just finding myself in that moment of like, I think also out of frustration, maybe with Cal arts at times, like I just want to get with the students here and make some shifts. Let's just make some,
2 (1h 8m 47s):
I think your thing is you want to helm your own ship, always. You want to kind of be in charge of your own destiny and which is a very good, I mean, I see you're making a face about it, but I just, from my prime saying that's a very good quality to have. And it actually leads me to another question I was going to ask you, which is, are you, age-wise about there with your peers in this MFA
6 (1h 9m 9s):
And that's been interesting. Yeah. Older, older. Yeah. I'm in my mid thirties. And that has been a, an interesting difference of experience at times. Yeah.
2 (1h 9m 19s):
Yeah. Well, we've talked to a lot of MFA's who, because they were in their thirties, we're able to see the whole thing about school in a much more objective way that allowed them to get more out of it personally, for that thing, exact thing that you were mentioning earlier, which is I am paying you. So you are going to give me the education that I need as opposed to what you think I need.
6 (1h 9m 42s):
W well, and that's, oh my God. I, that would be a whole other episode because like, actually it's funny, I got wait-listed at a school that I now realize probably wouldn't have been a good fit because I had applied three times and it was, it was somewhere where I had connections that I knew the person who run it, like we were sort of colleagues and she wouldn't let me in. And she finally was like, I think I owe you a coffee. And we went out for coffee and, and she was like, you're so good at producing you say, because it's the reason I gave you that face is because like, yeah, I'm ready to build. I like building, but I also am very tired of building. And that's a conversation I'm actually really interested.
6 (1h 10m 22s):
I S I'm still a director, but I'm actually the big thing I'm looking to pursue right now is development. I love dramaturgy. I love new plays. I love working with writers. And I love working with writers because I am not a writer. I have no ego about that. I have no competitiveness with that. I love the interrogation process. I love inquiry and being like, this is what I'm getting from it. Is this what you're after? Great. If not, what is it? You're after, ah, let's pick that apart. Like
2 (1h 10m 53s):
Human. Yeah.
6 (1h 10m 54s):
I, I love it feeds me. And so like, I'd love to not have to produce my own shit and find a way to just be in development for awhile. But anyway, it's funny, this producing thing has come up because it's like, or like building my own stuff, helped me my own stuff, because she was like, you know, you say, you want to get out of producing. You say, you want a break from this, but I don't think that's really what you want. And it really irked me. I really got pissed off about it because I was like, look, if you don't think I'm the right fit for your program, your prerogative, you're the head of the program. But don't tell me that, you know, better than me, what I want. I know what I want right now. There's actually a part of me going, applying to grad school at this point in my career.
6 (1h 11m 35s):
And I think it's actually the biggest advice I'd give to anyone applying to grad school is like, have a clear idea of what you want. Like have a really clear why, if that makes sense. Like for me, I love Chicago, but I am sometimes again, I say this with love. I'm frustrated by the Chicago style, by the dominance of the quote unquote Chicago style. I feel like especially critically, a lot of things are compared to Steppenwolf 30 years ago. A lot of things are compared to like quintessential 20th century American realism. And I love that shit. I just think there's also more, I think like, like if you look at Chris Jones review of Ms. Black for president and Phillip doc and subsequent response, I feel like that's, that's my issue in a nutshell right there.
6 (1h 12m 19s):
So like, fuck, I'm so sorry. I'm tired.
4 (1h 12m 24s):
That's okay. She, you, you, you didn't get into that school and you were like, don't tell me what I want.
6 (1h 12m 29s):
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Don't like, don't tell me that, you know, better than me, what I want. I, I got frustrated with the Chicago style and I was like, especially seeing Monte, who's a dear friend of mine. Who's also an alum of Cal arts, Monte Cole. He was expanding outside of that style outside of the rigidity of that in ways that were blowing my mind. And yet as a Chicago director, and this is the reason I love Chicago and the reason I'm grateful for a decade there, it, it teaches you collaboration. Like it is a great place for honestly, when you can find that true value of ensemble, the value of ensemble, that's what makes Chicago magical.
6 (1h 13m 10s):
And so like, to be able to bring that collaborative energy to a vision like Cal arts would cultivate, like that was the goal. That was what I wanted to bring my at my like ethical and collaborative value system to Polish avant garde inspired shit. And so like, that was my why. So I was like, don't, don't tell me that, you know, better than me, what I want right now, I have a very clear idea of what I want. And so, yeah, I'm going to pay money to get this thing that I want out of, out of this program. It's just sometimes ashamed to bring it back to the sort of ego and fear thing where, where sometimes you have to be on your own at that. Like, that's been sort of part of the Kellogg experience.
6 (1h 13m 52s):
Like I had some bad experience.
4 (1h 13m 56s):
That's higher ed. I mean, I think that that's, it sucks, but it all, and I say this because every single person we talked to, this is the same thing at any school at any time from 1993 to present, this is an issue that exists in terms of ego, fear, change, reckoning. It's very tricky and it's not ours education, higher ed, especially system is not set up to have the world. I think any, any kind of challenge to that system is, is not, we're not there yet. I don't know if we'll get it.
6 (1h 14m 36s):
It's funny. The ego thing is always interesting to me though, because you brought up a word came up earlier that I forget which of you brought up, but one of you brought up the term legacy. That's always an interesting word. That's always an interesting term in this to me because I'm like, look, as I say, like, it's it's for me, like, am I conscious of it short? Is it why? No. It's because I watched my dad impact people and I want to impact people. It's I was impacted by chorus line in a particular way. And I want to impact people, but I'm like for people who do care about that kind of ego in that particular way, wouldn't legacy matter in this I'm like, it's, it's my, it's a particular curiosity I have.
6 (1h 15m 17s):
Because like, if you would like shift gears for a little bit and decide like, oh, I could make change. That will be your legacy. And isn't that a great legacy. And wouldn't that actually gives you early go. All of it's really go is actually goddamn looking for.
4 (1h 15m 35s):
Yeah. The other thing is there they're like any child, scared child, their fear will not let them until they reach the point where they face their fear and say, I'm scared of being obsolete, not listened to and alone and not being important in some way.
3 (1h 16m 5s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina
Intro: when you don't feel your best, do the thing anyway, Fake Famous, H&M is 40 shades of putty, Stitch Fix,
Let Me Run This By You: Selfie vacations, Paul Stuart, rent a fake jet, Tevas, we are old enough to accidentally wear cool clothes.
Interview: We talk to Mickey O'Sullivan about body image, sibling relationships, getting bullied, Illinois State University, The Wake, Henry Moore is Melting at The Athenaeum, addiction, Sophia Bush, Chicago PD, Casey Affleck.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina .
3 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
3 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (35s):
Isolation is a funny thing because it's both the thing that you feel drawn towards when you don't feel well. But it's also the thing that, you know, that makes it worse. And I saw another thing that said, the more comfortable you get with you and who you are, the less likely you're going to want to isolate because it does, you know, it it's effort to be who you are when you're, you know, not kind of sinked up. Yeah. That's all just to say that when my kids have their aches and pains and two of my kids are real vocal about every single sensation they ever have in their body at any given time. Like, I can't think of a time where these two leave the house where I haven't heard my foot hurts.
2 (1m 20s):
My shoulder hurts. I have a headache. My stomach hurts. It hurts when I do this. And I, I believe it all. And yet I'm like, yeah, but if you stay home, I'm not going to let you be on a screen. So you're just going to literally be staring at the wall, feeling that I wouldn't, you rather go to school. Right.
1 (1m 38s):
Interesting. But Gina, it has taken me to 46 to actually realize that. So they're like, literally like a year ago, I probably would've been like, you know what, I'm just gonna stay home. And like, I have a headache, but like now I realize like, oh no, I think it's also like, time is slipping by like, I'm getting older, we're marching towards death. Like I got to get outside
2 (2m 3s):
Dude. And
1 (2m 4s):
You know, so like, I, I think it takes some what it takes, but yeah, man, I know that this pandemic has created the sense that the outside world is dangerous because literally it was, so it is like a war in that we, I felt like we were in a war when, when this all started, it was two years ago this month. Right. So right. I came to visit and then all to you and then all hell broke loose. And it, yeah, it created this thing of like the danger is outside the home. And so now it's like so easy to, but I actually realize that I feel worse at home because not only then do I have a headache, I have to deal with my fucking dog.
1 (2m 52s):
Who's a pain in the ass and get triggered by my husband who I think should be doing his job differently. And I hear him because we're in a teeny house. So that's torture. That's worse.
2 (3m 3s):
That's terrible. That's no good. My corollary for that is just, I do spend all of my, I mean, I do my, everything I do is, is at my house. I take care of my house. I take care of my kids and then I write and, and work, work on, you know, artistic stuff when you're home and your office, maybe miles experiences this too. Like you don't, you're never not at work in a way. So you're, I gotta do some, I gotta do something to have more of a separation. Maybe I should just like, bro, did you, did you see what about Bob? When he, he worked from home, but he clocked in. I should know that.
1 (3m 42s):
Well, the other thing that I was thinking, so I, okay. I thought about this cause I was asked. Okay. So I, a friend of mine said, I have this free thing for stitch fix. Right. One of these bottles. Okay. Right. I've done those before I did DIA and co and whatever it lost, its luster, it's a waste of money. Eventually. It feels like, and it's ridiculous. Okay. But good, good news about stitch fix is that, or one of these services is that one. I love the jeans they sent me, but two, you have to leave the house to return the things you don't want or you pay for the things. Right. Okay. So that's a side benefit. And so that got me out of the house and three I'm wondering, I was like, oh, maybe I should send my code to Gina.
1 (4m 26s):
But then I'm like, Gina, doesn't like to shut up. Right. And Gina doesn't like, so they do the shopping, but you also don't strike me as someone who would want to dress up for our meetings.
2 (4m 36s):
Exactly. And I did stitch fix and did it for a while. And then I was like, well, what am I dress for? This is a big conundrum. I have just life in general. And we should tell our listeners that, you know, we're, we're contemplating recording, doing a video recorder recording of these podcasts, which will be great, but then it'll make me feel like I need to, but maybe, but maybe it's okay to feel that way. Maybe it would be actually really good for my mental health to be like, I have to get dressed for my day.
1 (5m 8s):
I think it helps me. I mean, look, I'm literally wearing a tank top and a bra, but like
2 (5m 14s):
No, that's huge. Yeah,
1 (5m 15s):
Yeah, yeah. Right. No, and pants without an elastic ways. So like, I think it helps me in that. And some days it's just a pain in the ass, but it also helps me to think that, yeah, at least I'm trying in some area of my life, which we're all trying in all areas, but I'm just saying it's a visual representation of the fact that like, oh, I'm trying, the other thing about coworking that I like is I get to see other people's outfits. And sometimes they're really cute. Sometimes they're fucking horrible. Like it there's a lot of like 20 year olds that are here at co-working because are 20, 25. I'm a little old. So I like age everyone down, but like a 25 year olds that cause you can rent big offices here too.
1 (5m 59s):
Like for companies like marketing companies. So I see the fashions of the 20 five-year-olds and I'm like, whoa, you are opening my eyes to a whole hell scape of fashion that I did not know existed.
2 (6m 14s):
It's all so bad. It's all so bad. By the way, before I forget the, the getting dressed is, is this the reason to do it as the same reason to make your bed every morning? Like you don't have to sure. But doing it creates a nice demarcation that you're not always just, you know, in this miasma of like doing the same, same thing. But yeah. Getting back to the fashions of it's all terrible. And I just watched this documentary called fake famous. You might really like it it's is actually so fascinating. It's a, some guy who, I'm not sure if he's a journalist or whatever, but he speaks all of the time on news programs about social media.
2 (7m 2s):
Like that's just his area of expertise. So he says the social experiment where he, they have a casting call where the casting call says, I'm asking for people who want to be famous. So they get 4,000 submissions
1 (7m 18s):
And it's is it called the theater school?
2 (7m 20s):
Yeah, no, it's not going to theater school. And of course, you know, they paid these people to do it inverse of what we did and they pick these three people who wants to be famous. And he was, he set out to use his knowledge of social media to make them famous, artificially famous. And it was so interesting. It's a, it's something, it's a culture that I knew about. Like, but I'm not, I don't participate in influencer culture. Right. And I don't know if you saw this thing, I posted that 40 million people in the world have a million or more followers, like really puts things in perspective.
2 (8m 5s):
You know? And, and, and it was also talking about how the algorithm shapes itself. So like I'm also reading this book about Alex Jones and conspiracy theories. And you know, he will say on his show, he'll say a lie. And then he'll say Google it, because he's got millions of listeners and millions of listeners Googling something. Right. Makes it, shapes it into something. Right.
1 (8m 35s):
It makes it true. Makes it true. You can literally an impact the truth. It's gross. But it's also, it's like literally how for me, yeah. It's like how Hitler got to power, right? There was no Google, but it is the same. Like if you believe it, it will be so on some level. And if 40 million people believe it, it will really be so on some level. Yes.
2 (8m 58s):
And if they tell us that earth tones and no patterns and no structure to garments looks good, eventually will believe it. And they probably are doing it because there's a glut of earth, tone fabric, and people are trying to write, but I haven't seen something that I would consider a cute outfit on a person under, or maybe even anybody, but in years, like going to the mall, I don't say, Ooh, this is great street
1 (9m 29s):
Snapper.
2 (9m 30s):
It's all just looks gross.
1 (9m 33s):
I went to, so I walked down my street to get to coworking and there's an H and M there. And I, and also when my niece was here, we went to H and M because they love that shit. And I, I was like, literally, this is all 40 shades of putty. Like honey, 40 shades of putty. I said, and she goes, what's potty. And I go, it's this color? 40 shades of putty is my new memoir. And it's all about this color scheme they've got going on. Right? Like it is literally Putney. The putty that came in, the eggs that we used to play with silly putty or whatever, the fuck,
2 (10m 9s):
Petty wood glue,
1 (10m 12s):
Like coffee
2 (10m 13s):
Grounds call,
1 (10m 19s):
Let me run this by you.
2 (10m 27s):
So one of the places, I guess that Instagram is a very popular Instagram spot, by the way, people do whole vacations that are just centered around where to have their picture made. And like, not even thinking about the vacation itself, like people come to LA. Yes. Ma'am people come to LA, let's say they had this one story on their two girls from there might have been from Russia. Now that I'm thinking of it came, you know, spent $2,000 or whatever on their ticket to come to LA. And it was literally just touring these selfie spots. One of them is the Paul Stewart building. There's a big pink, it's a Paul Stewart it's fashion design.
2 (11m 9s):
And it was just like, his store is the, it's a huge, huge, huge pink wall. Oh. And this is where people at any time of day, you could drive by it. And you're going to see people taking selfies there because it's an Instagram spot. Oh. So people come to LA by the droves with a list of selfie spots.
1 (11m 33s):
This is like fucking Pokemon people situation.
2 (11m 37s):
Okay. Like by dying because you're being pokey while you're driving. Yeah, exactly.
1 (11m 42s):
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah.
2 (11m 43s):
So I guess you don't see too much of this.
1 (11m 45s):
No, not, especially not in Pasadena. I can't
2 (11m 48s):
Imagine
1 (11m 50s):
Fucking suburb dude. And, and, and I would also, oh, but I did see, okay. So miles surfs. Right? And we, while he's a new surfer, I shouldn't, it's not like Kelly Slater or whatever the fuck. Anyway, the point is we went to a surf lesson once and I fucking kid, you not, there was a guy who I believe was speaking Russian on the phone at the Santa Monica parking lot at 7:00 AM beach parking lot with his Mercedes that was rented clearly with a camera on a fucking tripod, taking selfies at 7:00 AM with a rented Mercedes in a crazy outfit there when he was doing and, and, and me and miles and I, and, and, and the surf teacher, who's fucking hilarious.
1 (12m 41s):
Who's this stoner comedian named Jared, who is hilarious, was like, yeah, yeah, dude, this is, this is, this is it, man. This is how they do it. They like stop traffic. And, and I didn't know what he was talking about, but now that you're saying it, this is what this guy was doing. And I, he was on the bash Dudley doing it. So like, there was no embarrassment. I was like, what the fuck? And music was playing. It was videos too. Like Instagram videos, reels or something. He's fucking, he was playing rap music, which was the best thing about the whole thing was the music. But he, it was raw. And he was crouching down, like by the car, in an outfit at 7:00 AM.
1 (13m 21s):
And Doris was, I was with the dog of the dog was like, even the dog was like, what the fuck is this guy doing? Like what?
2 (13m 28s):
I never bring my personal. I was like, just taking a selfie. I have to do it usually with one of my kids. And even then it feels it's something about it feels wrong. And did you know that you can rent the space that looks like the interior of a private jet for $50 an hour so that you could take pictures and make it look like you are traveling,
1 (13m 58s):
Which is like my nightmare, because I'm afraid to fly. I'd go to, I'd be in hell, but okay.
2 (14m 2s):
Oh, you can rent a mansion for $600 in a day and have, you know, these Instagrammers, they get together like four or five looks and they rent out a mansion and they pose themselves in these ridiculous things. And then they, because they post, they have to post four times a day in order to stay relevant and to get brands that want to get a sponsor them or whatever. So they are just constantly going around looking for content. And then the pandemic happened. And I think that really gave rise to like renting these spaces because they couldn't actually go on these vacations and so forth.
2 (14m 43s):
Isn't that wild. It's just
1 (14m 45s):
Craziest shit I've ever, I'm going to watch this documentary. I M it is again, I know why you find it interesting too, is because it really reminds me of Adam McKay's work. Like what is happening? It's so meta. It's like, what? Wait a minute, wait, what is happening?
2 (15m 7s):
Well, ironically, I think one of the things that's happening is whereas, you know, initially the feeling about the internet, it was just made everything opened up, right. And that's still true to, to a large degree, but on another way, everybody's life is just about their phone. You know, your life takes place on this tiny little screen and, and to be in a group of people under, I mean, maybe not even that maybe just to be in a group of people is to see like 80% of them at any given moment staring at their phone, wherever they are out in the world. Right. They, one of the scenes in the movie is they, some company hires a bunch of influencers.
2 (15m 51s):
It's a junket, essentially. Like they take them to these selfie spots, including a abandoned water park. That's like a, that's like a great place to take salaries. They get this crew of girls and they just take them to these various spots to model this ugly, putty, colored clothing, and then get paid for brand, you know, for hashtagging the brand. And there, I was just like so depressed. I felt sick after watching that Pressing right. There was one guy who did not, he decided that actually of the three people, they picked, two of them quit during the experiment, because one of them was getting comments from his real cause the guy was buying them followers.
2 (16m 38s):
That's what he was doing. He bought them followers, which are all of these bots. And did you know that like people like Kim Kardashians who have whatever millions and millions it's estimated this 60% of their followers are bots. Yeppers. Yep. Yep. Yep. So I guess
1 (17m 1s):
I can't, I can't even process what's going on here today. Like, I, I, you, you can't people can't see what they will. Once we start recording these bad boys, the video, I like looked down at my fucking TIVA sandal. Okay. My Tivas okay. By the way, by the way I was wearing, I bought Tivas because my feet are fucked up. Right. And I had to wear, I got, I have two shoes now I can really wear, which are Hocus. And then Tivas alright, terrible. Sarah will situations. But anyway, I'm wearing black Tivas sandals that I wore literally wore in eighth grade. And then I have a fucking LL bean like throw back at, or is it an Adirondack
2 (17m 45s):
And
1 (17m 47s):
Adirondacks a chair. Right. But okay. And it has like kind of nineties, throwback colors, not on purpose. I just liked it. And I bought it has a hood. I fucking wearing that. Some jeans and my Tivas and I look like I'm going to summer camp. Right. And I'm in the coworking and these young, these young ladies go, oh my God, we'd love your throwback nineties outfit. Literally. They said that. And I was like, Oh my God, I, oh my God, I didn't ha I didn't know what was going on. And I was like, oh my God, the one there. Right. I literally looked like I was going to camp echo, which was the camp I went to the Y camp.
1 (18m 30s):
And I also was like, it's also kind of hideous. And yet these youngsters are thinking I'm doing it. Ironically.
2 (18m 38s):
Let's, let's give up.
1 (18m 44s):
Let's just give up. Let's kill ourselves.
2 (18m 47s):
Let's wave the white flag. I tried Lord. Oh Lord.
1 (18m 53s):
I mean, I, I couldn't understand what's going on. And I looked down and I was like, oh my God, they're so right. And I just smiled. And I was like, are they
2 (19m 1s):
Literally Chivas from eighth grade? Like, you literally still have your same. No,
1 (19m 4s):
I bought Because my feet hurt. I need sandals that are literally, it's so sad. It's so sad. And I was sitting at coworking and they walked by and they said that I looked down and I was like, I, I did, I did feel Gina. Like I just, I gave up
2 (19m 23s):
Trying to give up. Now we're all set.
0 (19m 28s):
Well
2 (19m 39s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Mickey O'Sullivan. Mickey O'Sullivan is a Chicago actor. You know him, you know him from the shy and from Chicago PD and athletes. So many television shows. I couldn't possibly mention them all here as well as theater and commercials. And he is a related and relatable, insightful, funny, warm, talented person. So please enjoy our conversation with Mickey O'Sullivan
1 (20m 15s):
I'm talking about right now, filling her age. I don't know. It's great. It's great. It's in a good way. You will see that my internet was in and out. It's just,
2 (20m 24s):
Yeah. Are you close to your router or
1 (20m 27s):
Even know where the router is? So there we
5 (20m 29s):
Go. What's the router.
2 (20m 33s):
Good point. Make you good. Bye. Nice flex there with your Peloton in the background.
5 (20m 39s):
Oh yeah. Check that out. Just like slid it over. I've got it on one of those lazy Susan's right now. This is my current look. And it just,
1 (20m 48s):
Do you have another lip?
5 (20m 52s):
Who's a lazy Susan on the table and you know how you got to kind of prop up your, your laptop. So,
1 (20m 57s):
Oh, I thought you had the Peloton on a fucking lazy Susan. I was like Next level.
2 (21m 4s):
I was adding a whole new dimension to that workout, which is already very difficult.
1 (21m 8s):
I was just feeling Gina and about the things, which is interesting that you popped on. So I can tell, I can say it in front of you and make you really embarrassed. So in a good way. So I was just saying, and we'll, we'll, we'll start with the official Gina opening, even though you left theater school still the same opening applies. So say it,
2 (21m 27s):
Congratulations. Mikio Sullivan, you survived theater school. Hey, Mickey, serve a cookie.
1 (21m 35s):
You deserve a cookie and all sorts of things and free therapy. And Yeah, so we all need that. But I was just saying that one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, and we'll just dive right in and see Gina and I talked before our guests. So we're like warmed up about like psychological issues. Other people are like, what are you talking about? Like, why are you starting here? But here's how I have to start, because this is what I've realized lately. You're the only male identifying person that I've ever talked to. That talks about body image.
2 (22m 8s):
Oh,
1 (22m 10s):
I had never had a conversation where casually come up in conversation, your history of your relationship with your body as, as you from a kid to an adult, no one ever taught male, identifying person has ever talked about that with me and eight, I, it opened my eyes to like, oh shit, oh shit, men have body image issues. I did. It didn't even occur to me. So that's where I want to start. Good morning to you.
5 (22m 40s):
No, I'm also kind of jealous, right? So I listened to your podcast and you do you get like a real ramp up. And so this morning I was like, you know what? I need this a little bit. So I, you know, I drove the wife to work. I have a wife, I would say the word wife, which is really exciting. Thank you. And I'm also a chauffeur, which I love being. I like to be of service. I'm driving her there and I'm trying to have conversation to like warm up, you know? And she is so focused on work.
2 (23m 12s):
She's like, yeah. Anyway.
1 (23m 17s):
Yeah. She's like, that's all good. I didn't listen to the last 10 minutes. You said? Yeah. I mean, so I I'm glad that you, that was nice of you to do a ramp up, but no need, but, but, but also, can you talk a little bit about, and then we'll leave that that'll probably lead into acting stuff too, obviously in schooling, but like, what was your experience? Because you've talked about that. Like, I guess my first question would be like, what are the thoughts when I bring that up about a dude talking about body image,
5 (23m 49s):
To me, it makes total sense. And I'm also kind of shocked that more people don't talk about this. I mean, growing up, right. Like, yeah, kids are cruel for sure. But like, it's kind of very insidious the way that guys can be cruel to other guys. And also this idea that like, in order to be attractive to whoever I'm, whoever I'm like crushing on, like starting from a real young age is I better look like these people. And when we were growing up, those people were athletes. Right. It was never like Neil deGrasse Tyson. Right? Like it was never like these like really super intense or if it was, it was like bill gates or something.
5 (24m 31s):
And I don't know, like there was, there's this disconnect between masculinity and like being okay with your, your body and your body image and the way that you give off your image to other person, people so much. So to this day, I still struggle with it on a daily basis for a little while there, I was like, you know what? I think I understand the key to Hollywood success and that's the six pack and the really fucked up part was that the more, the closer I got to that goal, the better my career got. And I don't think that the two are linked. I don't think so. But I think that like, being, having to think that as somebody who's, who understands the industry pretty well and who has kind of had highs and lows in their career, if I'm thinking that then what is, you know, the version of 15 year old Makey, who's like, oh, I wonder what being an actor is like thinking.
5 (25m 27s):
And so that starts super young, but I was also stop me if you have questions, but I'm going to go on like a tangent here. Sure. So very young right. Actor on a baby soap opera before image is even a thing, right? Like before you have any concept of that, you give off your image to other people. I don't remember any of it, obviously. Right. And then parents separated. I come to Chicago, dad stays in New York, me and my brother growing up. My brother is always super thin, super smart. And I am always not super thin and not super smart. And so there's this kind of competitiveness that's going on right there.
5 (26m 11s):
But in order to fit in my brother developed a real good sense of humor at new school, very young. And I didn't, I was, I, I struggled to acclimate to like a new environment. And I guess, I don't know necessarily that I, I think that I wanted to tell myself that I had an eating problem growing up, but I don't know that that's true. I don't think I understood food or my body or energy really well because later on I started getting into athletics probably out of this complex.
5 (26m 50s):
Right. But I started using food for fuel and that kind of started my journey towards like understanding my body and understanding of what goes in there. But as a kid, it was like, if it's in the cupboard, I'm going to eat it. And I am a very energetic person. And so I attached myself to like food, energy, just keep going. But then when you're getting made fun of on a daily basis, energy emotions take like a lot of energy to process. And so I would come home and I would be in tears from, you know, being, they call me Shabaka my brother's name is Danica.
5 (27m 30s):
And they like, you know, the, the terrible people that our children. So I was always known as like, what is the one thing that is different between you and your brother? Well, you're fat and you're not. And, and yeah, like going into the career, it's awful.
1 (27m 51s):
But wait, I have a question. Was your family, I always wonder this because my family was not supportive. So, so I was bullied at school and I was also bullied at home. Were you bullied by your brother and your mom or no,
5 (28m 8s):
For sure. My brother, like, we were awful to one another, the fact that we have a relationship now and like a really good one is, is mind blowing. But yeah, we were awful each other. My mom, not so much, my mom always struggled with her body image and her weight and her reflection of herself. And I think still does to this day, like I remember like some of the conversations before our wedding was like, for both her and I like, you know, gotta start to trim up for the way, you know? So, so yeah. I don't know if I was bullied at home as much. I was, it was definitely a safe space for me coming home in that regard.
5 (28m 50s):
But my brother around his friends, it would increase a bit. And then of course that's like a role model to all of my friends or whatever. And then I just started hanging out with people who like, probably weren't the best for me because they weren't making fun of me. They weren't the best for me because of,
1 (29m 10s):
I mean, I think that it's like, we go, I'll speak for myself. I went, you go where the teasing stops. Right. Whoever's not, the love is great. And the love
5 (29m 22s):
Has an absence of love.
1 (29m 24s):
Right. I see. I always say like, I didn't necessarily want to be not if once I realized I was just going to keep being bullied, I then just wanted to be left alone. So whoever would leave me alone, if not mention it became my friend, even those people were fricking had troubles of their own. I mean, like were troubled, at least they weren't picking on me. Right. So it's like you start settling for more and more, less and less love. And like, you just want to disappear. I mean, that's what happened.
5 (29m 56s):
Do you think that that led to you being an artist in the sense that you started focusing more on self through isolation? Do you know what I mean?
1 (30m 5s):
Great question. I started. Yeah. I think that what happened was it led to my brain and heart madly trying to figure out why this was happening to me. Why was reading, being treated this way by school and at home and what I could do that was safe. And the only thing to do that was safe was make believe and create in a world where, yeah, where it wasn't about the way I looked because you know, but then you mix
2 (30m 37s):
Except until it totally was
1 (30m 41s):
When you then go to a theater school. So there you go.
5 (30m 44s):
Yeah. Yeah. Super weird to how that kind of comes into the mix. Right.
2 (30m 50s):
So I, I'm being quiet as you're talking Mickey because you're describing a dynamic that is happening in my house right now with my two sons and, and you're, so you're the, you're the grown up version. I'm really happy to hear you have a good relationship with your brother, because this is like one of my biggest fears. I had such a terrible relationship with my sister and my sons are on their way to, you know, how it seems to me is they're on their way to having that type of relationship. And maybe it's the thing about, you know, because kids are like, prof, I forget sometimes how much they have to take on at any given day.
2 (31m 30s):
Maybe even 90% of it at school is social. And only 10% of it is academic, but that's, that is so much that just, just like information processing and it has to happen in your body. So if you're having a hard time with it and then you're having, you know, body image issues on top of it, it's, it's all, it just seems like impossible to survive high school, you know? Like how does anybody survive high school, let alone theater school,
5 (31m 60s):
But oh,
2 (32m 2s):
No. The 15 and 13.
5 (32m 4s):
So part of the pandemic was they were being judged on this while they're going through like fuck and hormones and brutal. I could not imagine
2 (32m 16s):
Completely, completely brutal. And that's a whole other thing about education and the pandemic and how like we'll never get it back. Like, you know, it's just, there's just last years basically. But anyway. So when did you start getting into acting? When did you decide that that was something you wanted to pursue?
5 (32m 34s):
All right. So like alone, personally, like walking home from school, right. That, that mind was already there. Like my entire life. I was like, I'll be an actor. Not that I wanted to, but like, oh, that seems like, like I was the liar growing up. I was the storyteller I told the fucking biggest bibs in the world. And so I think like in my mind, but then it was like, oh, I'm very distractable. And I, this is how I knew I wanted to be an actor. Was that like one day that, wow, I could be a doctor. I could be a firefighter. Oh my gosh, garbage man. Why not? Right. And then the idea, like, I'd maybe like work on that for like a day.
5 (33m 17s):
And then the next day I'd be like, oh, I'm so interested in this. And I think later on, I was like, oh, you can go. It's a really cool way to learn about all sorts of these little things. It was just kind of like spin the wheel of roulette, acting, you know, go out for tons of commercials. You get to play a handyman for a day. And for me, like, I personally loved the pretend of like, oh, I wonder what a handyman stays like.
1 (33m 41s):
Yeah. That's what I remember about you is like a super curious kid, like super curious and maybe like that's part of the artist's brain too, is like, you were always curious, curious, curious, curious a hundred times curious. So what, okay, so you were like, that was your thought as you're walking home and then how did that translate into like being in a play or auditioning for shit? Or like how does that work or going to school? Yeah,
5 (34m 7s):
Definitely thought, right. Like funny person was my option in terms of getting out of like the social anxiety. And so my mom got me involved in a play, I think in like sixth grade, but it was outside of my social circle. It was like, we were on like the Southwest suburbs and this was way in the south suburbs. And so I didn't know anybody there only relationship to me was this thing. I played a skunk in a Winnie, the Pooh play. And then I proceeded to like rip my pants and fart in my own peace scene. So That helped the whole shitty body image to thing. Cause right.
5 (34m 47s):
Cause who splits their pants.
2 (34m 50s):
Right. Miley Cyrus actually. I mean, anybody can start therapy
6 (34m 56s):
It's me and my
2 (34m 58s):
Okay. But when it was time to pick college and you were looking around, did you look at a variety of theater programs or conservatories?
5 (35m 8s):
No. I don't think that I admitted to myself at that point that those was like a valid career option. So my senior year of high school, I had this like real stint in hockey where like I thought that that could be a career path for me. And then that was ended through like a variety of like injuries and you know, like personal stuff. And so then it was like I had a theater professor pulled me aside and was like, Hey, not professor, but high school teacher, special ed teacher who then ran the drama program was like, Hey, maybe you should consider doing this with your free time. Instead of just like smoking pot and smoking hookah and like driving around with your newfound free time.
5 (35m 51s):
And I was like, oh, maybe that's a good idea. So I did like beauty and the beast high school as like, you know, this like a side character kind of like not in the limelight. And then later on did a Shakespeare comedians, LR where we just totally ripped off of the American conservatory theater's production from, we like copied it, move by move and called it acting. And then we won state for that, which is kind of backwards, you know, like we won state for copying and production. So I definitely thought it was good, but I didn't think that I was any good at like creating my own versions of characters or anything. So I knew I had to apply to a school.
5 (36m 32s):
I had no idea what I was going to apply to. That seemed to be what I was good at. So I did a double major and special education and, and theater because I didn't think that a, my parents would approve of me being fully theater student. And then B I felt like maybe it was either a selfish career path or yeah, not like, I think I wanted something more noble maybe. And I had experience working summer camps for special Olympics and stuff like that growing up. So I was like, oh, that's a, that's an interesting thing. So then when I got to Illinois state university, they were one of the schools that accepted me.
5 (37m 15s):
I had no concept of what a theater school should be, none whatsoever. And a lot of the other people were like, oh, I did four years of drama and four years of forensics. And in the summers, I go away to theater camp and I was like, I played hockey. And so I didn't fit in again. Right. Which was fine because I learned how to be by myself. And so I started making all of my social circles outside of the theater department for the most part. And I think in a way that kind of helped me, like I practice my monologues in front of my buddy, Greg, who I think Greg does like computer science and you would just go, I think that was good. You know, it really became self self reflection.
5 (37m 59s):
And the weird part is like, I would go in and I, I really did become the, the, one of the golden children of my department. I was an asshole. Yeah. So a hundred percent I was cast in a li almost immediately. And
2 (38m 18s):
It does not surprise me because this is what always happens. Like the, the men who go into drama don't tend towards the masculine. Right. So then when they get somebody who's like, I played hockey that, I mean, you know, that happened in my high school. That
1 (38m 35s):
Happened our theater school too.
5 (38m 37s):
I think it's backwards too though. Cause you the more in touch with my feminine, oh, I hate that word. But like, you know, like this idea that like there's a masculine, the more I got in touch with myself and with art, I felt the better I did. Right. I still think that to this day, like the more I'm receptive to my own emotions and the emotions of those around me, the better I'm able to handle my career.
1 (39m 4s):
Yeah. It just sounds like the, the, the bind that we're all in, which is people want you to be a certain way. But when you actually invest in being another way, it's going to make you a better person than artists, but nobody really wants that, but they say they want it. So men are in a bind. I guess what I'm saying is like, you're the first male guest that we've had on that I've known. And I know the struggles that you've been through and it, it opened my eyes to theater school for men straight men specifically are men that identify as straight, whatever. It's a, it's a bind for you too. It's a bind for you. So I guess, what did you love about theater school and what were you like? I'm outta here.
1 (39m 46s):
That's my question.
5 (39m 48s):
Yeah. And those are all awesome points. Like it continues. The body image thing continues all throughout college. And I do grow closer to myself through that. But I think the thing that I loved about it is that I had that opportunity for the first time in my life. Like hockey was definitely an obsession for me. I tend to gravitate towards obsessing. And so to get into theater school, I didn't take any gen EDS. I like, I, I forgot my degree. I failed out of school. And finally, because I just, I wasn't interested in anything except for learning all of the theater that I think at some point I looked at somebody I MDB and I was like, oh, they were, you know, working for 15 years before they had their big, big, big break right there before they were discovered.
5 (40m 36s):
And so I was like, oh, I have a lot of catching up to do. Right. I didn't do this until my, until I was 18. Now it's time to catch up. So I just started like taking only theater classes. And then the idea that you can sit or lay on the ground in a dark room, surrounded by your peers and think about what shape your body is making and what noises are coming out to me. That was super interesting to me. I got lost in that world. And I still think to this day, like my brother is a finance guy and he he'll never know what it's like to just weep behind a mask because you saw something a certain way one day. And so for me, that was a celebrated thing.
5 (41m 18s):
It was like, congratulations, you, you cried behind the mask. I don't know. It's still is kind of a bizarre thing to like to reflect on. But my, my presentation skills got better at, than my social emotional skills got better. I was spending every night in a rehearsal space getting to know how to best work with people and how to make mistakes, like going back. I love college. I don't like the results of college. I don't like the way that it was kind of organized. People were cut after certain years. It was very dramatic. But theater school for me was, I mean, what a dream, right? Like I got to wake up, put on a leotard and go stretch for two hours and then go into a voice class.
5 (42m 1s):
Talk about my feelings towards words, study history.
1 (42m 8s):
I wish I could, I want to go. What if I apply where they, that's a horrible idea. I do this all the time, by the way. But like, it sounds so great when you guys, when you say it, I'm like, wait, I was wasted. I wasted my time there. I wasted my time.
5 (42m 26s):
I don't know though. Right. Like I think I've spent the rest of my career being like, okay, so what can I take from that? Because that's not the real world. The real world is not that you get to wake up and do that. But like, certainly I've recently gotten back into like stretching and mourning, like yoga in the mornings and stuff. And I'm like, oh, that was something that really works for you back then. Where did that go? And so, right. Like creating my own schedule. I think also I got, I was supposed to get a, B S and not a BFA. So I think I definitely missed some of the, I had more rigidity in my schedule that I think some of my peers and that made me resist the regular general education stuff and spend more time.
5 (43m 16s):
Like I committed to every directing project that somebody was doing. Right. Like they're in a class. And I was like, I'll do it. When they were like, bring one monologue to class. I was like, well, I'll take up the whole class and bring 10. I was super selfish about theater classes as well. Like if nobody else wanted to go, it was like, well, what are we doing here? I'll go.
1 (43m 37s):
Wow.
5 (43m 38s):
So I S I experienced a ton. Right. I was looking through, I, I was like reflecting the other day and I don't understand how I did all of that in four years or four and a half years or whatever, because I probably did at least 10 projects a year. And then I stayed during the summers and did community theater, like a playwrights festival there as well. And so I was just constantly going, but a weird body image thing. Right. So freshmen, what are the freshmen 15? I put on like the freshmen 45 drinking a lot. Right. Partying, a lot, eating food from the food Corp,
1 (44m 18s):
Chicken fingers, chicken fingers, fingers.
5 (44m 22s):
So much cheese.
1 (44m 25s):
Yeah.
5 (44m 25s):
And then I played my first like bigger role was Toby belching 12th night. So, so, oh, you have extra, you are bigger than other people. Now you're going to play the funny role, right. The drunkard, the, this or that. And I don't know what came too, but I think somebody made a body image comment in my final assessment that year. And regardless of whether that was a positive or negative thing, I committed that summer to not being what they thought I was. Right. I was like, I'm not just this
1 (45m 6s):
Comment. Do you remember the comment?
5 (45m 7s):
I don't remember. I just know that there was a catalyst, right. Something happened in that last little meeting where either what was said, or what was not said was not what I wanted to write. And so I was like, I have, I have a fucking chip on my shoulder. I love to prove people wrong. It's like a weird obsession thing as well, prove myself wrong. And so I, I went and I went running and I went back to this like, athlete, like, oh, this is how I preserve myself. And maybe if my feelings were hurt, right. Like I can focus all of that into this.
5 (45m 47s):
And I lost, like, I lost a lot of weight very quickly. And then that next, you know, I was the romantic leading man, the next fall In Philadelphia for the story. And to the point where like, this is how little I understood. They're like, you're doing the Philadelphia story. Will you come in and read for like the dad role? And I was like, okay. And I was like, oh, this is the dad role. It's a musical, obviously in my brain. And it's not, yeah. It's not, it's, it's Carrie gray Audrey. But I was like, I didn't read the play. I had no idea.
5 (46m 27s):
And then they cast me as like the leading romantically, not Carrie Grant's character. And I was like, oh no, this is a terrible idea. They don't know that. I can't say
6 (46m 43s):
I showed up to them like ready to like,
2 (46m 50s):
Mickey. Would it be fair to say that, like, you've had to figure, I mean, a lot of people come to acting as a way to figure themselves out. Right? Like a lot of people like the idea of trying on roles. Cause that's what they're also doing with their own identity. And I do see like a little bit of a trend where a lot of people who do it for that reason, maybe didn't get enough reflected back to them when they were a kid or they got reflected only these negative things like you're describing about getting bullied. So, I mean, would it be fair to say that it's taken you oh, a long time to get to know who you really are?
2 (47m 31s):
Are you still in a process of figuring that out? Like, did you, how much, or how little did you know yourself when you were at theater school?
5 (47m 41s):
Yeah, totally fair to say. I didn't, I didn't really know myself. I definitely was enjoying the process of getting to know myself, but I didn't really have an understanding of like why I was the way I was. I, and I am definitely still in the process of trying to figure that out. I think I did a play right when I left school called, called awake. And it was about a young man. Who's a poet who's who thought his father was a poet and turns out there was, it was his brother. Like my, my father's brother was my actual father.
5 (48m 22s):
And it was just like, I don't know myself. I need to go figure out who I am. And that really resonated with me. It was like this idea that like sometimes what we feel is just the, the anxiety or the poles that we feel is just us going while I thought I would have known myself more by now. And so, yeah, definitely still trying to figure it out. My process, creative process. I mean, like that's constantly in flux, never the same. And that's like hockey stuff too. The reason I liked hockey was you could run a set play, and it's always going to be different every single time.
5 (49m 4s):
And the idea of theater, right? Like you, you get up every night and you do it. And like something about the way that your day went will be reflected in your performance. And, and so that's interesting to me. Yeah.
1 (49m 23s):
Interesting. I never got that. I never, I never knew that that acting was about me. Do you know what I mean? Like I never got that note. Like that message. I missed that whole thing that like, I could bring my whole self to a role. It doesn't mean that it's me. Like, but that I was allowed to bring my whole self to the role. And in fact, if I did, my acting would be better. Like I miss so much, I'm just so bombed, but I'm learning it. I'm learning it from, from listening to people like you on the podcast and talking with them like, oh, I'm helping to, to, when I teach now, I'm like, bring you, you're helping me.
1 (50m 7s):
The other thing I want to say is that when I saw you Mickey in my first time seeing you in a lead role or any role was at the greenhouse, I dunno, Athen am in Henry Morris, melting this, play it. And I'd never seen Mickey act. And someone was like, I have my own problems. Like, why am I going? I went to this
5 (50m 36s):
That's great advice. Yeah.
1 (50m 40s):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I give you terrible advice. I was like, go to LA, you're going to be famous. But like, yeah. Well, anyway, so I saw this play. I saw you in the play and I was like, this is one of the best actors I've ever seen in my life. I, I, I was blown away. I thought, oh, this kid knows what the fuck he's doing. And commits 125% on stage, which is, it just was miles ahead of what everyone else was doing onstage, but not in a real snarky way, in a real working man sort of a way so that you don't hate Mickey because you're like, oh, this is a good person.
1 (51m 26s):
They just really are committed to what the fuck they're doing. I had never seen that from an actor your age, because we're
2 (51m 34s):
Obsessed.
1 (51m 37s):
And I was like,
5 (51m 38s):
Oh,
1 (51m 39s):
This kid is the real deal. Like I,
5 (51m 43s):
That maybe I was avoiding My work. I was avoiding all of the other things that were sitting outside of that. Right. That like were valuable pieces of insight that I could have learned about myself. But like, I, at that point, Jen, like I was moving to LA because I did not have a home. Right. Like it was a warmer climate. Like I had no money to my name whatsoever. I struggled with addiction. I right. Like I had all of these personal life crises going on, but theater is a place where you can go for two hours, whether you're seeing it or whether you're in it and totally just purposefully forget everything else.
5 (52m 26s):
And so I put off a lot of like personal growth until probably like 30 years old, at least like real is true. Like this might work for you, but it is destructive. I put off that work because I was like, oh, it serves me. Right? Like it's, it gives me energy to put into my career. It is going to better knees somehow to hurt.
2 (52m 49s):
How do you, how, how does the casting world see you? Like who are you as an actor?
5 (52m 56s):
That's a good question. I wish I knew. I think I'm, I think I play intense characters that I played, blue collar characters, definitely people with an emotional depth, like an intense, emotional depth. I have, I'm starting to play the good guy. All of a sudden, which is interesting. I like playing the best friend role. And I think I kind of look at every role as the best role, you know, I am there to do something.
8 (53m 32s):
Yeah. Right.
1 (53m 37s):
Which is why they want you for the leading man role. Look, this is, it makes perfect sense to me from an outside. I'm like, they want you, so you are finally what I'm hearing too is like, you're finally what you said is like starting to do the work on yourself, right? Like as a person, as a human, as a father, as a, as a, as a husband, as all the things. Right? So it makes perfect sense that you are now playing the good guy. And also that you now are wanted by people to play the lead. Even though you want to play the best friend and you play leads to, I'm not saying you don't want to play the lead, but it, it just all makes sense.
1 (54m 18s):
It all makes sense that when you work on yourself, if, and if you're lucky and all the things that You
5 (54m 24s):
End up your
1 (54m 24s):
Career advancing when you do the work on
5 (54m 27s):
Yourself
1 (54m 28s):
Internally, but
5 (54m 30s):
Then you can decide whether or not things are working. And that's like the, the small business perspective, right? Like you open a small business on the corner, your first year, you're, you're looking at like high expenses, right? Like expense your entire store. You're going to be in the red for a while. Second year, you maybe are developing a customer client relationship. Third year, maybe you have a personal crisis and things take a step back fourth year, whatever fifth year, by the time the fifth year goes, you go, I have some solid data to work with. Right? Maybe this network isn't working for me and I need to go to a different network. And I S I subverted a lot of bad advice. I didn't listen to any of it.
5 (55m 10s):
I went from New York back to Bloomington, normal Illinois to try to get my degree and failing out again, because I did too much theater up to Minnesota, Chicago, California, Colorado, back to Chicago, and about three years, four years. Yeah. And so then I got back to Chicago and I was like, oh, this is what it's like, when you stay in a place for a little while, maybe people have a chance to respond to the postcards that you're sending up.
2 (55m 40s):
Yeah. And what's that whole thing, like now, since I've been out of it for so long triangle, when you're first starting out and trying to get people to know you, you said you still send them postcards with your, with your headshot on one side or something.
5 (55m 54s):
Snail mail, baby headshots. Right. I would print go to Kinko's or FedEx or whatever. I've had tons of headshots, tons of resumes, tons of cover letters. And I'd send them to everybody which maybe is what I'm learning. Now. Thankfully, I have representation. I've had representation for a really long time. Is that like, maybe be targeted with the people that you want to work with and focus on that rather than like, will anybody like me please will anybody, But maybe I had a better, I I've never thought about this. I submitted to two agencies or one agency that called me, and it was a really big name in Chicago.
5 (56m 39s):
And they called me in and they kept calling me Maki, like, Hey, Maki, come here. And then they were like, yeah, my name is Mickey. Sorry. That was the thing that they call me,
1 (56m 59s):
Excuse me.
5 (57m 1s):
And I was like, well,
1 (57m 2s):
That's the greatest fucking name I've ever heard of. I mean, it's not your name, but it's a great name. Yeah.
5 (57m 8s):
They brought me into the room and they're like, okay, give us your monologue. But look at the wall. They're so spot on the wall, look at it. So I did the whole thing and they were like, how are you expecting to have a good relationship with casting? If you just stare while you talk the entire time. And I was like, oh, I thought you said, like stare at the wall and talk. And they were like, you know what I think, like with your look and your experience, we could do a trial contract. And I was like, maybe finally at that point, did I have the guts in my life to be like, I don't need just anyone to be my friend or to work with me.
2 (57m 48s):
Maki need somebody who can really connect with
5 (57m 51s):
It knows my name, you know, that read the email. And then sure enough, I, I reached out to somebody who I knew was an agent and I had a meeting with them and I was like, Hey, is that how all of them should go? Because if it is, I'll just take the contract and I'll work in the industry and whatever. But if it's not, I'm not going to sign with somebody who's a Dick. Who's like too overwhelmed to actually build new relationships. Let me go and focus on somebody who like, wants to have a conversation about what I think of the industry and my place in that.
2 (58m 23s):
Oh, it makes me sick to think about how many people who are in those positions of power. It's, that's all they're interested in is the sort of the power play of it all. Like this thing that we start doing when we're kids and for some people we don't ever outgrow it, which is like, I don't need you. You need me, you know, the way that I show my, you know, whatever that ability in the world is to reject you instead of, you know, to be inclusive or, or even just, I mean, just a kind thing, because by the way, nobody has, is named Maki. So they should have had a sense of like, wait, why are we saying this? Right. I mean, right.
2 (59m 3s):
Shouldn't they have had some idea that
5 (59m 6s):
I do. Like, maybe I'm a sucker and lately I've been trying to think of like, what are all of the reasons that people could act like that? Because I don't get it right. Like, I don't get like, the I'm going to go brag to people about how I treated this person, like shit. And I, I think maybe it like it, it is just a really deep, deep, personal thing that's going on. That's totally clouding. Then being aware of how they're treating other people at all. Because I don't, I it's gotta be because I don't, I I've never heard anybody brag to me about how they treated somebody like shit in my entire life. I know that that's a thing that generally, as humans, we feel deep shame about and how maybe that deep shame manifests is just constantly being so focused on, on you and the things that you have to do and, you know, maintaining your own personal level of success and survival.
5 (59m 59s):
It's this fucked up survival tactic of like nobody else matters only what I'm doing matters. Maybe. I dunno. Maybe I'm just a sucker.
1 (1h 0m 8s):
No, I think it's, I think you're right. Like I think people get so caught up in their own process. They don't even know some people do, but I think that's like the exceptional sociopath psychopath, but like most people are just like low level nurses. We're all such low level narcissists mixed with our childhood trauma. We don't even realize what we're doing. I swear because I have confronted people, you know, that I've, I've confronted big wigs and said, do you realize that you're talking like this person is a piece of shit and they're like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, oh my God, most people don't understand.
2 (1h 0m 50s):
And most people are so far from understanding that the, that the farthest they'll ever get with that is just a defensive will know you're the asshole for pointing out. Right. I mean, that's, that's, that's usually the limit. It never ceases to amaze me. And yet it always amazes me. No, that's the same thing. how with, you know, my, the thing I'm always interested is getting from surface to depth with people. But I think like maybe 98% of the population is just really interested in staying or maybe it's just because of where I'm living. I don't know. But I, I find that not only do people not want to go from surface to depth, they're frightened and weirded out by you wanting to do that.
2 (1h 1m 35s):
You know what I mean? Because my thing is always like, we all know that the weather is how it is. Like, can we just like, let's skip that part. Let's go to the next thing. And people don't like that. They really don't like that.
1 (1h 1m 47s):
No people are not interested in that because what they have to, I am convinced that at the, at the core of that is, oh, one day I'm going to die and everyone I know is going to die.
2 (1h 1m 59s):
And
1 (1h 1m 59s):
If we talk about real, if we talk about real stuff, it'll inevitably lead me to, oh my God, everyone I love is going to die and I'm going to die. And I can't handle that. So I'm going to do drugs or do anything else instead, or not, or talk about the,
5 (1h 2m 13s):
Not the talking about the weather, but that's where I'm at right now is that I'm like, oh, the most important thing that we could do now is acknowledged the back that we're going to die
2 (1h 2m 23s):
Because it's so much freedom by the way, because it's not like, sorry to spoiler alert, but everybody is going to die. So like let's instead of being, spending your entire life afraid of that thing, embrace it because you're not going to die right now necessarily, you know, like you could make right now more interesting, right.
5 (1h 2m 43s):
Enjoy right now. Right. In a way
1 (1h 2m 46s):
Even noticed right now, just notice that we're actually alive. And I, and that we are here now doing things, talking, eating, all the things that we do it's happening. I think that that's what I've come to in this podcast. And in my life is like if the most I ever get to is, oh, this is actually happening. I'm here. This is going on. How I feel about it as how I feel about it, but this is what's going on. Acknowledging them. That's going to have to be enough because to go deep with people is such a treat and so rare. But like, I have to still stay true to the acknowledging part.
1 (1h 3m 28s):
Like, oh, you, you might be uncomfortable, but I'm going to acknowledge in my own way that, that, that we're all going to die in. And that's part of the impermanence. I'm going to acknowledge it to myself because if I don't, it just really leads to
2 (1h 3m 40s):
You just feel so isolated and desperate and yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, speaking of isolated and desperate and alone, you mentioned going through some issues with addiction. How, how do you, could you say anything about that and how you, how you got ahead of it?
5 (1h 4m 0s):
Yeah. Never out of it, right? Like I am an addict through and through, right? Like it's anything that make me feel better and then like learning what those good things are and what leads to right. This path of destruction. I think really early on, I was constantly the kid that was if he only put his mind towards things, but I think if you only focused on those thing, and so that got me on this idea of like, whatever it is, and this is where obsession came in, right. Like if I could just focus on stuff and then I would dive 110%. And so what were the things that allowed me to do that?
5 (1h 4m 41s):
Right? Like first it was, you know, cigarettes, right? Like I could just sit there and read a play and read another play and smoke cigarettes, I guess. Right. Like definitely alcohol is in there. It's not like my primary. I, I do not go into functioning or nonfunctioning relationships where this, where I'm like, oh, I need this to function. Or I need this not to be totally dysfunctional. But early in my life, it was definitely a medicine of some sort. Right. Like I was definitely looking at it for relief. I drank a lot and drank, it was binge. Like, that was the way that we drank in high school and college.
5 (1h 5m 23s):
You had three hours to drink. You better drink a lot of it. Right.
9 (1h 5m 27s):
So true.
5 (1h 5m 30s):
So that was a thing. And then Adderall became a thing for me where it was like, this is something that allowed me to sit and work for hours on end. And certainly I think that, like, if I'm going to go to a psychiatrist, they would be like, I think you definitely have some traits that are right there with add or ADHD, but I did it. And so I would just abuse on my own. Right. Like, and I, I looked at it as the investment opportunity of a lifetime. Right. It was like, you're going to constantly have this on you. You're going to constantly be taking it. You're going to constantly be working. And that led to cigarettes. Right. That led to me avoiding all of my own personal shit.
5 (1h 6m 13s):
And then, right. Like the way I quote unquote got out of the throws of it was total collapse
2 (1h 6m 24s):
All the way to the bottom
5 (1h 6m 26s):
All the way. Right. Many times where I thought that I was going to die. Right. That I thought I was like, I would not sleep at night and a very functioning. Right. Nobody, nobody knew at least that I know of. Right. Like, I'm sure, like now looking back like, oh, something's going on there? Like, but it was a whole production for me. Right. Like I had the hand sanitizer to stop my hands from smelling like smoke. Right. So nobody needed to know that, like that was my preparation to get myself right. For, you know, the audition. And then it was, you know, I've got gum, I've got Gatorade to keep my body, like all of the, the electrolytes in my body up because I haven't slept in two days, I've got like coffee.
5 (1h 7m 17s):
And so like financially fell apart. Right. And no good reason. Right. Like best point in my career probably was like, you know, commercial money coming in, episodic money coming in. And for me, this was just like, great. Double-down on my investment. Great. Like be better, be better. And in my version of better was more, more altered, I guess. So never out of it and re emotionally my relationships fell apart. Right. I stopped paying attention to what other people, how other people were reacting around me.
5 (1h 7m 58s):
And that kind of led into acting, I guess, a little bit that like, it wasn't maybe until like five years ago. And Jen, this is where I'm a little bit jealous of you. Is that like, I did think that what you said earlier was like, I never considered myself, like the main part of gen actor being so valuable to whatever character I'm playing. I never considered that, the shit that I was trying in rehearsal, like just like a kid in a box, like had real time attacks on the other actors that I'm working with.
1 (1h 8m 31s):
I never considered that either. Like, but you're right. Like, it goes both ways, right.
5 (1h 8m 37s):
If you're in a, if you're in a meeting with a coworker at an office and they never focused on one idea long enough for everyone to kind of like gel with the idea, you don't work with that person for very long, even if what they're doing is an abusive or hurtful or anything like that, it's just not conducive to like, right. Especially for theater, where in Chicago, right? Like you get $300 for an eight week stipend. And so you better really get everybody read it better, really be getting something out of that rehearsal time. And I was selfish, you know, like this is about me and my journey and my character and, and everybody else better fight for that.
5 (1h 9m 17s):
And there's, and that's what conflict is. And that's what drama is.
2 (1h 9m 22s):
Well, what are your feelings about that? The stories that we hear about famous actors who do that, who still do that, that's still their process. Does it make you mad?
5 (1h 9m 31s):
Yeah, I think it's so misguided. Right. And I'm thankful that I've had enough experiences where I'm like, oh, you're, you were kind of the Dick there that could be bad. That could develop. Right. Or somebody who pulled me aside and was like, you know, that just wasn't necessary or whatever, really, really early on, I moved to New York and I was in a play festival. And it was like about what is that? The witch who they shove into the oven, what was that called? The Hansel Hansel and Gretel. I was Honsel I guess. And we were pushing the witch into the fire and they were like, yeah, you used a broom and we didn't have a broom.
5 (1h 10m 17s):
And so like fresh out of college, Mickey was like here, hand on the butt. And afterwards this woman came up to me and she was like, don't do that ever again. And I was like, oh my God, what did I do? I have no idea. I'm so sorry. And at first I was really kind of like, come on, like, what are we going to do? Like you needed to get it. So it was my first time being like, oh wow. And she was older than I was. And so to me that told me that she's been hurt in this process and that through whatever trauma that she's been through, like this is not the, the road to working with other people.
5 (1h 11m 2s):
Right. And so there's just like little moments like that, that I think if you're so blind you're so like, I need to get to the top. I needed to get to the top. I needed to get to the top. It's really easy to just that everybody is being
1 (1h 11m 16s):
Right. Right. It's like, that's
5 (1h 11m 19s):
Like
1 (1h 11m 20s):
This whole reckoning, this whole reckoning that the arts and humanity and the U S and everyone is doing, which is like, that may be true. You said something really important to me, which is, it may be true that people are overly sensitive. You didn't say this part, but I, I think people can be, oh, I can be overly sensitive. That's for fucking shirt. And it's also true that that is not the way to working with others. So like, both are true. Like I have sensitive issues. And you notice that like, doing that kind of behavior is actually not conducive to doing good art and creating and not, and getting jobs, the whole thing.
1 (1h 12m 2s):
So like, it's interesting. It's like you took the note and actually took it. Whether you took it all in or whatever, you took the note, but a lot of these dudes aren't taking the note. They're not getting the note. They're seeing it as the people are over sensitive, which they might be, but they're also not taking the note, like take the note, you know,
5 (1h 12m 21s):
I take the note. Absolutely. That's something like in college that we were constantly reminded. It's like, you don't have to respond. Just take it, write it down and think about it for a, for an eye and then come back. And like, but like what, what I hear a lot of more successful people do is go not a lot, but some is, they're like, yeah, I'll write down the note and I'll throw it in the garbage. Right. Like it serves me no purpose whatsoever, but yeah.
1 (1h 12m 48s):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's tricky. Yeah. I mean, I just, I just, I like what you said there about, like, you took, like, that happened to me on set on ER, I was being a goofball because I was so petrified that I was being an asshole, not on purpose, but I was an asshole and someone pulled me aside. It was actually Leonard Nimoy son who directed the, pulled me aside and said, listen, all this stuff you're doing with your code, whatever star it's costing us a lot of money. It's like $5,000 a minute, whatever you're doing there. And you're pulling focus. And so you're actually now a bad business investment. And I was like, and I was, you never told me the story.
1 (1h 13m 30s):
I just remembered it. Look, I buried so much shit. So it was like, it was like, I was petrified, horrified, embarrassed, and, and, and mad and mad because right. Like why shouldn't I get a chance to take up space and be big. But here's what I wasn't considering is that I was part of a whole, I was part of a team. This wasn't the jet. Even if it is your show, it's not your show. So it opened my eyes to like, people are watching. People are wanting to work with you that you don't do stuff like that. Or you'll only work once at this place. And I was like, oh, what I do matters. That's what I walked away with.
1 (1h 14m 11s):
Like actually what I do matters because it's affecting other people. And I was so mad and so embarrassed, the best thing that could've happened to me. And he wasn't a jerk about it. He wasn't a jerk. He was a straight up,
5 (1h 14m 25s):
There's definitely like a two sides to this. Right. Because for a lot of actors, the majority of actors we're hopping in, we're hopping into a process, we're hopping into a team and we are just expected to go and get in there. And so like, whatever, kind of like the good, the bad and the ugly comes with that. But then the other side is that you have these, these stalwarts, right? Like these very mega figures who are, who, who the production comes to them. Right. Like they are the, you know, it's, you know, Sophia Bush. And not that Sophia Bush is this like awful stall war, but like, right. Like on Chicago PD, it's about you.
5 (1h 15m 7s):
And th the series leads, right? Like the writers come in, the directors come in and they kind of conform these stories around you. Right. And so not that I've gotten to experience that by any means, but in the more independent film scene, right. Like I've gotten to understand what it's like to be with production for 30 to 60 days, and to show up and see people on a daily basis and just see, see, former me selves coming in and fucking around in the background and fucking things up and understanding how that, but the differences, right? Like we can't look at it like therapy. Like it might be therapeutic too, to become another character for an hour, but it can't be the way that we get through breakthroughs because we're also, you just can imagine treating everybody like you're treated your therapist.
5 (1h 15m 52s):
Like,
1 (1h 15m 55s):
I can't imagine Just for me. Yeah. I mean, that's not it. Yeah. And I, I, I love the idea of, if we're going to give feedback, like pulling someone aside, he didn't embarrass me in front of anybody else. And it was really brutal, but I love taking people aside and saying, Hey, this is my feeling. And this is why this affected me this way. And I just want to let you know how your behavior is coming across. And just so you know, and I was,
2 (1h 16m 31s):
But I never understand why so many people like Casey Affleck, they don't seem to get too many of these repercussions.
1 (1h 16m 39s):
Right. Because they started well for me and you know, my Casey Affleck story, I'll tell that another day. Oh, I, oh, I got into a thing. Oh, he came back
2 (1h 16m 48s):
And the feeling that you have a lie
1 (1h 16m 53s):
That's when I will say is that nobody has done that to them because a lot of them have grown up in the industry with people like famous brothers, like Ben Affleck. And they're afraid to give Casey Affleck notes. Right. Okay. But, but yeah, so that's exactly it. And people are scared, but no are people as scared. They are starting to do it. And it's starting to be very public right. With all these reckonings that are happening. So I think now hopefully the desire side effect is that people will check their behavior. I don't know if that's going to work. It probably go through a cycle again, where nobody gives a shit. And everyone's a sexist, racist asshole all the time open.
5 (1h 17m 28s):
They're
1 (1h 17m 30s):
Not either, but it's cyclical unless there's real internal change. So. Right. But anyway, I think that's why Jean, like, I think that they, they don't get called because people are afraid to call them on their shit. But now they're starting to, like, I've heard stories about big wigs being pulled aside and being like, Hey, Hey, I'm the intimacy coordinator on this movie. And what you just did is totally inappropriate. And we'll actually be asking you not to come back. If you do it again to like famous people. God.
5 (1h 18m 6s):
And there's, so there's this, that side of it. And then there's this other side where we're starting to see people being celebrated for not only the call-out, but, but the, the opposite behavior, right? Like the, the, the stuff that we want to model ourselves after. And like, for example, Chicago PD for the season for us on there for like one day, and there's the same, we're in a bar and an extra is playing a bartender and we're doing a few takes. And at one point the director stops. Then this is kind of like the land of TV where like the director does, the TV director typically comes in on an episode.
5 (1h 18m 50s):
Right. And, and they can tell around the stars and then they get to pick on the costars, or not necessarily a guest stars, right. Their guests, but like the coast, I was like, And so this director just zeroed in on this bartender and was like, what are you doing? You had it in your right hand, the first time, your left hand, the second time, right hand. How am I supposed to know which one to pick in front of him? And Sophia Bush just goes, Hey, did you get the take that you liked? And he's like, well, yeah. He goes, well, then why don't you just lay off him?
5 (1h 19m 31s):
And it was like, good for her. Holy shit. And it wasn't a, it wasn't a big, But it was this very like, and, and it did quiet quite as mouth we moved on. Right. And I just remember looking at her with this totally different light of like, and, and she's, you know, like, there's plenty about the way that she handled her Chicago PD contract about like, saying like, this is not the step for me. This is not the set for me for this reason, this reason, this reason. And unless these things change, I'm opting out of my seven year contract early. And they're like, yeah. Right. We'll Sue you. And she was like, no. And they like, and now she has got a development deal at whatever.
5 (1h 20m 14s):
And she's on a new show now, I think. And so you see stuff like that here, like proof of concept is not like you're, you're Jared Leto and you send people condoms. And that's, you know, celebrated even though like fuck award shows, right? Like they want to like give awards for people being children, but like, that's going to be celebrated in the real world of money residuals and like actual influence, maybe not social influence, but like industry influence.
2 (1h 20m 55s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Boz did not invent timezones, JetBlue, Gina makes an embarrassing mistake, Boz has to run her own job interview.
Let Me Run This By You: The world is coming to an end so do we still have to do yoga and stuff? Feminist Body Horror, Bros in Hollywood, Vincent Kartheiser, there's a FIGHT AT CO-WORKING!!
Interview: We talk to Dave Deveau about being a child actor, Are You Afraid of the Dark, D.J. McHale, the way we stigmatize the bodies of actors (incl. child actors), York University, the Toronto drag scene, Peach Cobblah, Zee Zee Theatre Company, and Carousel Theatre For Young People.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? How you doing? What's going on? Oh my God. I have a similar, I have a similar situation going, whatever that look was. Yeah, you go first. You go first. Okay girl. So, you know, I'm hustling, hustling, trying to get a job. And yesterday, so weird.
1 (49s):
I yesterday we finally miles and I finally figured out like, maybe I should just work at his company because there are good anyway, lovely people, whatever. So I just submit my resume and a cover letter for a job that I, that is supposedly open, write a great cover letter. Cause that's what I Excel at. I mean, anything else goes to shit, but I can really do a cover letter. So no, but so I sent it and then I get this call. Okay. So then I'm going to see in the car, our friend, Erica, our good friend, Erica. So I'm going to see her and we're going to take a walk and talk about this possible documentary. You know that you and I want to make whatever.
1 (1m 30s):
So I get five Ms. Calls from Miami and I'm like, what? I know no one in Miami, like Miami is like a place. I know no one. So I'm like, well, I'm not going to pick up. And finally I'm in, I'm in the drive through of the Starbucks and I make it a habit of not talking on the phone while I'm picking up my drink. So I'm like someone I'm like thinking someone's in trouble. You know? Like that's where I go. I'm like someone's in jail or my knee is whatever. So it's this woman. And she, you can tell, you know, like English is not her first language. That's fine. Like English is barely my first language anyways. So I'm talking, she's like, hi, we have an interview for you today at this company.
1 (2m 11s):
You know the company. And I'm like, oh, okay, well she's like, can you do it at 3:00 PM Eastern time? And I'm like 3:00 PM Eastern time to one to one that's that's noon. Right? Yeah. Noon. I, sorry. I had to do the thing. That's what you were saying. Oh no, no, no. It's noon. And I'm like any it's 1140 at the time or yeah, it's 1140 LA time. And I'm like, okay. So, so in 20 minutes she goes, no 3:00 PM. And I said, okay, just send me the invite. I'll cancel. So I canceled with Erica and then I'm waiting on the invite. And then I get the, I rushed back to put, throw some lipstick on and rush back to coworking to do the interview.
1 (2m 57s):
And I have like a, an invite from her that 5:00 PM LA time. Okay. So then I'm like, okay. So then I call this person and I'm like, Hey person. And then it is a comedy of mother. This is just like a tip of the iceberg of my day. Yesterday of motherfucking errors. She goes, no 3:00 PM. Your time is 5:00 PM. It became it. And then it was, it was so insane. And I'm like, listen, lady, am I supposed to jump on a call in five minutes? Do I click this in five?
1 (3m 37s):
Like at this point I'm shouting. I don't know what to do. And she's like, no, you're not letting me speak. I said, okay, go ahead. And she proceeds to say, I'm looking, I don't know what, she doesn't know that my husband works for the company. She goes, I'm looking at my boss's calendar and we have you. And then she starts talking about mountain time and I'm like, lady mountain time is an hour let later. And then she didn't understand. So I literally Gina, Gina, this is what I said I am. So I didn't know what else to do. It was like talking to a drunk, right. Or a person out of control or a crazy like, like I said, listen, ma'am ma'am I don't, I don't invent or make time zone.
1 (4m 26s):
I didn't know how else to. I said they are a thing that I cannot change. And she goes, what? And they said, here's the thing, like what you're saying? Is it actually making any it's not working? And I go, I don't, I didn't invent time zones. It's a real thing. And she just was quiet. And I said, okay. And I had her boss's email and I'm the kind of bad bitch now where I'm like, I'm just going to cut out. I can't do this. So I just don't have it in me. I'm old. And I'm, I'm just, I know my shit. So I'm like, thank you so much for your help. I got to go. And then I just emailed her boss and was like, listen, your assistant. And I are like having an epic comedy of errors, like time zone, garbage fire.
1 (5m 12s):
What do you want me to do? And she goes, oh, she wrote back and said, no, no, it's, it's one 30 your time, two 30 mountain time. And the other person on the call is in New York. It just, this is the working remotely different times, zones, English being a problem. And also like, I think that it's so interesting. I think the assistant was trying to be assertive and like hold boundaries and thought, I didn't understand that we actually had a fundamental problem about like math. Right, right, right. So then, and then this, and then I said, okay, so I got that settled. I said, I'm going to jump on this call in an hour then.
1 (5m 54s):
Yes. Okay. Then I get a call from the assistant again. And like, hi, she goes, I am so sorry. And I said, you know what it is. Okay. She goes, I, I said, don't even worry about it. I just, I couldn't. I literally said like, Gina, I couldn't take it anymore. Ma'am I had, I had to, I had to do something else.
2 (6m 16s):
Yeah. Yeah. I had to stop. It had though, we were just like Susan powder. We had to stop the insanity. It was just getting out of control. I had a similar comedy of errors with jet blue. Okay. Which is to say, go going back about, no, not even a month. Like actually it was only two and a half weeks ago. You know, we had this plan thing where Aaron was gonna take the boys to Utah and I was taking precedent for them. And I had a feeling that he never booked the tickets, but I didn't, I didn't put that fee.
2 (6m 57s):
It was one of those things. I didn't put it in the front of my brain. So we're sitting around and I go, what time do you leave on Saturday? He says, oh, I gotta look at my email. So he's looking, I could see the panic is going over his face. And long story short, he, he didn't book the tickets. And so I, I said I would do it, but the jet blue website was having a problem. So I would go, I would get everything all teed up. And then when I tried to book it, it would say there was a problem. Correct. So I did that four times.
1 (7m 27s):
They charged you four times. So
2 (7m 28s):
They charged my credit card. I mean like $15,000.
1 (7m 36s):
Yeah, sure, sure.
2 (7m 38s):
And so when the first time we called the guy, I said, oh, don't worry. The charges will fall off. Okay. And some of them did, the three big ones did, did fall off. But now it's, you know, it was a few weeks later and not all of them had fallen off. So I called JetBlue. And of course, whenever you call any company, the first thing they do is say, we are so grateful. You called, please don't call us. Please email us, please go to our website. Please talk door robot. So I did, I exchange, I started here. It was nice of me. And I, I agreed to be in line on a text.
2 (8m 19s):
So they were going to contact me when it was time to start texting with this person. So I'm getting notified. 45 minutes later, Helena is available to text me. So Helena and I are back and forth.
1 (8m 32s):
Hell
2 (8m 34s):
Yes. And she, it quickly, she quickly realizes that this is not, this is above her pay grade and I'm going to have to speak to a supervisor. So she tells me to call 1-800-JET-BLUE. And I said, well, Helena, we have a problem here because I did call when 800 jet blue. And it told me to text you, instead of calling, she says, no, you call this number. And, and, and that's a customer service I said, but your customer service. Yeah. But I can't help you. And we're just having this weird back and forth until, until finally I get a thing on the text that says, hello, this is Helena.
2 (9m 16s):
How can I help you? And I said, is this, I wrote back, is this a robot or a person I could get back? I am a person. Okay. Are you the Helena who couldn't help
1 (9m 30s):
God?
2 (9m 31s):
Or are you Helen or the supervisor? No answer. Are you both named Helena? It was so crazy. Anyway. So it's like
1 (9m 40s):
A fucking movie, right?
2 (9m 42s):
Solved. It got resolved. And then yesterday I see, I go up on my credit card and I see that they've been recharged. So I called Jack Lou. I wait on hold for one hour.
1 (9m 60s):
Sure. Oh, I ex
2 (10m 2s):
Calmly explain to the lady. And she, she asked me, does it, does, does the credit card show like a ticket number? I said, it just says American airlines, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I went, it's American airlines, not jet blue. I'm sorry.
1 (10m 26s):
Oh my
2 (10m 29s):
And her response was like, girl, I feel you like that is just what is happening in this world.
1 (10m 37s):
We are.
2 (10m 37s):
So like, I know every generation says the world is going to end, but in our case we really have a good case for beating out every
1 (10m 48s):
Yeah. Like it is. I have noticed. So like then yes, she and Gina, that is like a perfect thing of why the world is going to end. It's just because we're all, we're all doing that. And then, so I get on the interview with these two people and I'm not gonna, you know, bad mouth, a perspective employer. I will say they looked so whooped in not their fault. I'm not saying ugly. I'm not, but like they have been through it, like through it, sweatshirts, akimbo, like China,
2 (11m 25s):
You're wearing a sweatshirt habits, a Kimbo that's bad. Right.
1 (11m 29s):
It's a thing is a Kimbo. And the t-shirt under it's akimbo. And like, there's like half drawings of kids' stuff on the back wall. Like everything. I'm like, oh, wow, wow. I'm like presented. But I got like lipstick on I look and I'm like, oh, whoa, everyone needs a lot of help right now.
2 (11m 49s):
Yes.
1 (11m 49s):
Like a lot of help.
2 (11m 52s):
So how'd the interview go?
1 (11m 53s):
I a blast. I was like, okay, here's what you get when you get me, these are all my experiences. If there's a way to make it fit in your organization. Great. If not, maybe not like I that's how I said that.
2 (12m 9s):
I love that that's so wise.
1 (12m 12s):
'cause I, I have so much different shit in my background. And also I'm open to things. And also at the core of who I am is I want to work with people who are kind, but also efficient who are, have their shit together, but also are compassionate. And the kind of work is actually less important than that. And the pay rate.
2 (12m 37s):
Well, that's all true. But what I, what I feel so impressed by is that inherent in that was a decision not to do what you've probably always done in the past and what I certainly have exclusively done, which is, let me see what the need is. And then let me just contort myself to be, to meet their need, which never works like at like, no matter how many times it didn't work, I stood. That's still the approach that I took.
1 (13m 2s):
That's our manifesto link. That's the whole thing. And our manifesto it's like trying to fit into something. But here's the other thing, like literally when they started talking about the actual job, it was so vague. I, I, I don't, I didn't know what was going on. They were using terminology and like, part of it is that I don't know that world like comms, a lot of comms talk communication,
2 (13m 27s):
Vacations. Okay. What will you say the name of the company, but what does, what do they do?
1 (13m 33s):
It's like a tech company that like, but they're all over the world. It was started as a startup and just went public. They have a lot of good people, but like, I don't know their lingo. Right. So even if I knew the lingo, it was as if, I don't know. I dunno. I was just like, okay, so you, your description of actually what I'm doing on this call is so vague that I actually have to take over,
2 (13m 57s):
Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Communications was being thrown around a little
1 (14m 3s):
Calm,
2 (14m 4s):
This entire story. So far is just rife with terrible communication with this time zone thing and what they're communicating to you by wearing the Kimbo sweatshirts and that they can't communicate to you about what, what the job is or what they're
1 (14m 19s):
Doing and understand what Insane. And so, and also I think they do, they have a tremendous amount of clients and partners in the Ukraine, so that they're like, and they're doing really a lot of work to try to keep their workers safe. Obviously. I mean, it's not altruistic I'm they need worker, you know what I mean? But, but they're also really helping, but they just literally had looked like they'd been through a war. I was like, w
2 (14m 45s):
W
1 (14m 45s):
Wow. So basically I was like, okay, well, I need to take over this interview if there's going to be any kind of, any kind of anything. I mean, and so I just pitched myself. I mean, that's what I do all day, every day in Hollywood. So like, I it's a good at it. And it also doesn't fucking scare me. Like I, what is scary to me is auditioning. Sure. Callbacks. Yeah. Being on set horrified, but like talking to people in a meeting, what have I got to lose? I've done it 4,720 times. And also tangible things have not come out of it, but it doesn't. So it's not as though I've had a bad experience.
1 (15m 27s):
It's just like, I've had the experiences where like, I haven't seen the flowers yet of the seeds I've planted, so I'm not traumatized by it. I'm just sorta like, whatever. It's like, I'm at coworking anyway. So I can do this. I could do a general with you guys, you know, with you too. I will. Did they seem to feel reassured by quality to take over the okay. That's good. Yeah. And I, I didn't like say like, okay, I wasn't like, I didn't go whole hog, like crazy. Like, what's wrong with you? People, I guess I have to run this interview. It's more like, okay, well, I'm going to just do silence. Right. A lot of sense. And they looked at each other, like I, one just grabbed the other, I think, to come on the call, nobody knew it was happening.
1 (16m 12s):
It was when I said to the assistant, Hey, can we do this Friday afternoon too? No, they really want you on today. Today. It has to be. And I was like, really? Are you sure you're talking to the right person? They don't know what do they need me on today for? I don't know what's happening. So it was just an interesting, it's an interesting time, Gina. It's like a crazy fucking time. Let me run this by you. I'm really struggling with his life.
1 (16m 53s):
The world is ending. Do I really need to keep refreshing our download numbers on my web browser? Do I really need to like start doing yoga? I just feel like the world, but then there's this thing like you're describing it's humanity. That's the thing that always comes through in the end. I have to say, life finds a fucking way. Life runs away as garbage as people are, particularly men. I'm sorry to say, but it's true. Like men ruin everything as garbage as people are. There's also, and I guess as landscaping being a great example of a good exception, a good man, there's always people there who are ready to turn it around and do the right thing and make the better choices and, you know, Medicaid people who are out of control and their decision making.
1 (17m 40s):
We have to take comfort in that. Yeah. I mean, I, there is comfort. I think that it is. Yeah. And it reminds me of like this sort of Adam McKay stuff of like, I mean, I haven't seen all of don't look up, but like, you know, I think through art, there's gotta be a way to, to like help in some way. Like I was just, I I'm thinking about like, yeah. Humor, humor, helping. The other thing that I have stumbled upon is I think, okay. So I wrote, I have a friend, a guy friend from Chicago, who's a director and he moved to LA and he's hilarious.
1 (18m 23s):
And he's like me married to someone, not in the business. He's like a normal guy. Right. And so he's, he's like, he wants to direct horror. He's a commercial director, but he wants to do horror. And he's like, do you have a horror film? I'm like, well, no, I don't have a show. He wants to strike to horror short. But then I wrote this piece called the weight of breath about my body. Right. And, and he's like, oh, this is body horror. And I was like, what? It is a whole new genre, feminist fucking body horror where it's a genre. And I was like, oh my God, I'm obsessed. So it is like,
2 (18m 57s):
That's very much was in your piece that you wrote, explain it to me more than,
1 (19m 1s):
Okay. So I didn't know it existed. So this, it all kind of coincided. So I talked to this guy, Justin, who I adore and I said, and I said, well, I could send you the only short, short I have. That's written that I wrote for a submission and didn't get anywhere. Sure. I'll send it to you. Whatever. It's about a woman who is covered in Spanx, can't breathe, get broken up with grabs a huge pair of scissors and starts hacking away at her at her Spanx. And then you think she might kill him. And then he leaves, okay. By a fat lady that, that like has a breakup kind of anyway, he's like, oh, you're like one step away from her. And that she just needs to, it's the way we'll shoot it. And she'll hurt herself a little bit while she's, you'll see blood.
1 (19m 44s):
And also the Spanx metal we'll dig into her body and you'll see like a puncture. So that is body horror. And I was like, oh, I'm all in. And the, and the impetus for that short was I was on set. I don't know if I ever talked about this. I was on set. I was cast in something as a nurse. And I had S and the, and the costumer said, you're going to wear Spanx right in under my
2 (20m 12s):
Scrubs. Yeah.
1 (20m 13s):
I was like, okay. So I bought this special pair of Spanx that I did not try on before I got to set that had metal, ribbing, metal, ribbing too small, but now I'm in them and I'm on set and I'm already petrified because I'm petrified and they start cutting. It broke loose of its binding. And the metal started cutting into my stomach and you
2 (20m 36s):
Couldn't sit
1 (20m 37s):
Down and I couldn't sit down. And I couldn't, I couldn't tell anybody because I was so embarrassed. And I told this to Justin and I couldn't and I got home and I had a huge gash that was infected in my stomach, my area of most self hatred, my belly, my gut. And it was bloody and it was bruised. And I thought, oh my God. So that's body horror. Right? And like, the way you tell that story is feminist body horror. And I'm like, oh my God. And I think Gina, it's going to be, well, what I'm wondering is, is it the only way that women get to express themselves in Hollywood is by making like body horror.
2 (21m 17s):
First of all, having a body is a horror, correct? I mean, do you know that that's a great premise for a whole pardon? The pun, big body of work? Because I think about that with relate, with respect to being fat. But I also think about it with respect to being old aging, Aging is such and, and being fat. And aging is like such a horrible combo because young and fat is a different thing than old and fat. Right. Older fat is just like, that has this positive connotation.
1 (21m 57s):
Also you could, there's underlying is that you could always lose it. You're young enough to lose it. There's
2 (22m 2s):
Still time. Right.
1 (22m 4s):
And it's not like it's not body positive, fat, positive movements are like taking hold, but old and fat. No,
2 (22m 11s):
It's all. Yeah. Yeah. I always often wonder do the body, body positive folks know that the biggest thing they have on their side right now is that they're young and fat as opposed to anyway. So to answer your question. Yeah. I'm sure that is the only way. And I mean, our only way in as women to anything that has been traditionally closed off to us is violent. Right? I mean, that's the only way we ever get into anything. And we always have a lot of casualties in the fronts of these feminist wars, you know, the sexual revolution. I mean, not that it didn't happen always, but you know, more spotlight on the free love movement meant that women were the casualties of a lot of sexual abuse and rape pregnancy traumas, all this kind of stuff.
2 (23m 1s):
Yeah. So, but you know, like you did in your beautiful blog, posts people, if you haven't read it, please go to our website and read Jen's posts. Luckily for us, we're really, we're really familiar with this horror. We're really familiar with this pain. And if we can turn it into art, then, then I hesitant, I hesitate to say will have been worth it, but at least we can do something.
1 (23m 30s):
Well, I'm going to turn it. Yeah. I want to turn it into money too. That's where it makes people pay. I mean, that's the pocketbooks way, which is why, like I'm getting a job outside of this industry first to be like, okay, I'm studying that, did it. And how they did it. One their bros. And they'd probably, it's all nepotism. But also if that's not the case, they started an advertising, nothing to do with Hollywood, but Hollywood, but not Hollywood per se. And they, they made money that way and then sunk it into their own projects. And then they were able to, and they made contacts in the advertising industry.
1 (24m 12s):
That's how so many bros have done it in Hollywood. So many bros
2 (24m 15s):
That, that the Genesis of that is so beautifully displayed in mad men. You see the character, I forget the name of the character that Vincent CHRO Heizer with Where he, you know, he, he, I just remember he gets involved in hire a campaign for the sport of Jai Alai and he starts, there's something about it's going to be on television and you just see him getting so sucked into the Glen. I, you know, it's, it's an, it's an undeniable glamorous draw for people who are not in the industry. Like, Ooh, everybody thinks it's glamorous to be on TV. And yes.
2 (24m 56s):
And people in advertising are like the perfect blend of, you know, cutthroat and creative. Maybe a little bit. And yeah. Anyway.
1 (25m 6s):
Yeah. I mean, I, I like doing yeah. That, that my blog post was completely completely w started by that. Like, because I'm one nosy too quick, three know my way around. And my memory's great. And know my way around research. I literally saw names did this, did this, did that, did this?
4 (25m 41s):
I don't know. I think there's a fight. What? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the, it's the
1 (25m 51s):
Guys, it
2 (25m 51s):
Seem like it's inside the building.
1 (25m 53s):
Oh, it's two coworkers. It's two people at co-working and there's a guy there's a movie maker on the left and a, a professor on the right. And they got into it
2 (26m 4s):
About Ukraine. Probably. They're probably talking about that.
1 (26m 7s):
And they might be, I dunno, anyway, that's what's forgive me anyway. No,
2 (26m 10s):
No,
1 (26m 12s):
Whoa. So, okay. So, but it was, I just couldn't research and put it together and I'm like, okay, who are these people? What are they doing? Oh, they did this. Oh, and look, look, look, look, look, look, of course people are like, well, someone was like, well, you know, you know, at one it's bad for business to talk shit about the industry. And I'm like, oh, okay. But there is no business. I have no business. What business do I have? I don't
2 (26m 35s):
Have any said that. Like, you shouldn't write
1 (26m 37s):
That. Like, like, like you want to be careful. And I was like, okay,
2 (26m 42s):
Well, it's never as if that's ever
1 (26m 43s):
Worked. Also. I said, lady, it was a woman too. And I said, listen, I have no work. There is no work. What am I, what do you mean? I won't get hired. I'm not getting hired. Not I, this is not no, like that doesn't even make any sense. It holds no water. Cause it's just, it's not true. And you know, I won't be hired if I'm dead because I stifled myself and then have a heart attack. You know what I mean? So anyway, that people say all kinds of stuff, but I also know that it is a bigger problem. I guess that's what I'm saying. It's not about these 2, 3, 2 dudes in an assistant at a table. And it is about the dues and the assistant at a table.
1 (27m 25s):
It's a much larger problem. So I I'm well aware that, that these three dudes are not the whole problem because people are like, you know, maybe they're nice. I'm like, oh my God, you're missing the fucking point.
2 (27m 41s):
You're missing the point. I'm
1 (27m 43s):
Nice too. I don't have a fucking job with an a, or a script with my name on it.
2 (27m 47s):
And we have all internalized patriarchy to such a degree that like, we miss it when it's gone. I, that group that I left. Oh yeah, it has gone. You know, I'm still, I'm still a member of the group, even though I'm not, you know, in any type of a leadership position because everything okay.
1 (28m 2s):
Yeah. Everything is okay.
2 (28m 4s):
Okay. The first thing that happened when the majority of us left is a bunch of men or like a few men came in to, it was an all female board and now it's, there's there's men on it, which is fine. And the, one of the first things they did was they re-instituted, do you know what Robert's rules
1 (28m 26s):
Is? No, what's that,
2 (28m 28s):
It's like a way of conducting a meeting where you have to have motions and seconds and all of, you know, it's
1 (28m 34s):
Is it like a business meeting in a 12 step group? Have you ever done?
2 (28m 39s):
And I, I dunno. Okay. Well sure. And I, and on the face of it, I understand it's, it's meant to be, it's meant to ensure that everybody gets to speak their mind and you know, and it, and it's meant to be, you know, it's meant to promote cohesion, but it just something about it. It's like, Robert's for like, that's what came in. It's just Robert's rules. It's just
1 (29m 8s):
Gross.
2 (29m 9s):
And it's, and, and, you know, and the organization is just gone. It's as it's as if our whole tenure, there was a fever dream and they all went like that was weird. And they just moved right back to where it all was
1 (29m 23s):
Before. Right. That's really sad. That's super sad.
2 (29m 26s):
It's sad. And I feel like in the same way that a group of humans will always look for a leader, a group of humans will always look for the, a man to be in charge. Right? It's it's, it's so deeply embedded in our DNA
5 (29m 55s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Canadian playwright, Dave devote a K a peach cobbler has drag queen alter ego. If you watched a television show in the, I think it was in the early nineties called, are you afraid of the dark? You probably saw Dave because he, in addition to being a playwright and a drag performer and an actor, he wasn't child star. So David's warm and funny and look just really a breath of fresh air. So please enjoy our conversation with Dave Devoe.
6 (30m 40s):
So
2 (30m 44s):
Anyway, Dave dissolves, congrats. Wait, actually, I have to phrase this differently for the first time I'm asking Dave devote. Did you survive theater school? Did you go to theater
7 (30m 54s):
School? Parts of me did.
2 (30m 57s):
But you went to theater
7 (30m 58s):
School? I did. Okay. Okay.
2 (30m 60s):
Good.
7 (31m 2s):
I'm like, what are you talking about?
2 (31m 4s):
Yeah, we have, we've had just one person who she actually, more than one person. People have different conceptions of what theater school is. And some people do a theater major and they don't know the difference between that and the conservatory. I couldn't care less, but I just didn't know for certain with you. So congratulations. You did survive theater school, but what, see what you're going to say more about you've survived parts of it?
7 (31m 29s):
Well, no, like I think like parts of me survived, right? Like I think, I think we, we all come out of theater school, like a slightly different assembly of parts than we come in. And I think for some people that's great. And I think for some people that's super detrimental. So we'll see where we all fall on that stuff.
2 (31m 47s):
Part of you was a casualty,
7 (31m 52s):
You know what, oddly enough, the, the actor part of me with, I think, was a casualty, like, because I sort of came to theater school from a very let's start at the beginning. I was a child actor in film and TV from a young young age. And so then sort of went to theater by starting in film and TV because theater felt, you know, like a really safe, lovely community-driven space. But, but I think what theater school gave me is like, I came into theater school thinking I'm going to be an actor. And I left knowing I would be a playwright for my life.
7 (32m 35s):
Yeah. So that was a good, first
1 (32m 37s):
Of all, back back it up Child, we've had one other child star Jonas Avery was on, but, but he went theater and then film and TV and back to theater school. So tell us you really, how, what happened there? That,
7 (32m 54s):
Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's a bit bizarre. I was, you know, a sort of theatrical, precocious child and there, you know, and I was really into like, we, we go see a lot of theater growing up, but not a lot. I mean, we, but my parents don't come from the arts, but they were like, let's expose our kids to interesting things. And then I was, I must've been in like kindergarten grade one, something like that. And there was a teacher's assistant in our class who spoke to my mother saying my mom's an agent and your kid is really like vivacious. And do you think that's something he'd be interested in? My mom was like, I don't, I have no idea what you're talking about.
7 (33m 38s):
So anyway, we met with her and, and my mom's like, is this like, is this something you're interested in? I was
1 (33m 44s):
Like, sure, let's do it. Let's
7 (33m 45s):
See what happens. And, and so I just started doing like a lot of commercials, you know, when, like when I was a little, little one and then my mom was great as far as just really constantly checking in of like, is this fun? Like, is this a thing you'd like, because I mean, I don't think it was fun for like schlepping a kid around to endless auditions. That's not fun.
1 (34m 7s):
She knows
2 (34m 9s):
My kid. It's not fun. Wait, I have to time out one second, Dave, your, either your microphone here, it is sometimes
7 (34m 17s):
Just hold it. Cause
1 (34m 18s):
It
2 (34m 18s):
Hits your shirt and it makes up, sorry, please continue.
7 (34m 22s):
Yeah. So, so you know, okay.
1 (34m 26s):
So wait, wait, wait, I can, I can start us up with what you just said was super interesting when you met this person, were you thinking like, oh, this is an agent like, or were you just like, what was going on in your brain?
7 (34m 39s):
What I was thinking? I think it was more, you know, they're like, I think that the, the idea of like being on camera is really novel to kids because I think it's very different now. Like we live in a social media age, but like in the late eighties, early nineties, whenever that, yeah, probably like late eighties at this point, that's like, that's a cool thing. You know, we don't even have a big camcorder at home. Like this. I can be what in front of a camera, let's try that. So it was great. And, and then when we, when we moved, we had to move a lot for my dad's work. And so, but we kept moving to like bigger and bigger film, TV hubs, right?
7 (35m 20s):
Like, so when we settled in Montreal, I, the agent I'd had in Calgary had sort of forwarded us to an agent in, in Montreal. And, and then I started actually going out for like, like real stuff, like films, and then I booked a series and then it was, oh, we're doing this. Okay. And so
1 (35m 42s):
How old were you when you booked a series? Like that's, everyone's dream by the way that in LA, right. So
7 (35m 47s):
Yeah, I will, the first
1 (35m 51s):
Season, first series I
7 (35m 53s):
Would have. Oh God, that's a great question. I was probably like nine or 10. I might've been like, I might've been 12 by then.
1 (36m 4s):
And you were series regular, like
7 (36m 6s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's
1 (36m 7s):
So, but I mean, it's,
7 (36m 11s):
It sounds like it's way more work than it is because, so do, do you remember the Nickelodeon show? Are you afraid of the dark?
1 (36m 18s):
So that
7 (36m 19s):
Was, that was the show. So I was part of the campfire, which so yes, I'm a series regular and I appear in every episode, but it's like, there's a scene at the beginning. There's a scene at the end. We shoot the whole like season in like three weeks.
1 (36m 33s):
Right.
7 (36m 34s):
So it's not
1 (36m 37s):
Awesome. Yeah, because that's a show where like, yeah, you, you, the kids, and then you go into the story in the middle. Right. The actual story. That is fantastic. What was that like for you?
7 (36m 49s):
Th that series was, was incredible because I mean, a, I was a huge fan of that show. So I actually got cast at first. I got cast in one of the episodes, like in the story, not the campfire and had a real blast. And, and then I thought, wow, are you for the dark? This is amazing. We shot it. And then the series was done. It got canceled. And I thought, oh, okay, well, I'm glad I just snuck in there. So then two, three years later, they announced that they were going to bring the show back. And I called my agent immediately saying, if they're casting campfire, you have to get me in there.
7 (37m 29s):
Like, please, please, please, please, please I'll do anything. And she said, yeah, yeah, I'm trying. And they wouldn't see me. And I was, I was livid. And then I called us, like, sneak me in for callbacks. Like we know this casting director, she cast me before, like, please just get me in there to like, you know, all of my child, actor, friends, like went and had their callbacks. I had nothing. I was so angry. And I was like, can you sneak me in with like the girls? Cause like first they did the boys. Like, can anything please
1 (37m 55s):
Hustler, man, you're a hustler.
7 (37m 58s):
I love that show like so much. I don't know. And, and I mean, that is not, I'd never hustled for any other thing ever, but I was just, so it just felt like it's a sign. I, you know, it's, it's coming back and I just had this thing and I had such a great rapport with like the producers and the director and blah, blah, blah. So months go by and I'm, I, you know, I'm sad and I move on and then I get a call from my agent saying, they, you know, you're, you're coming in for a meeting. It's like a meet a meeting. Like, what does that mean? What's a meeting. We've never had a meeting.
1 (38m 31s):
Right. What is a meeting?
7 (38m 32s):
But it's at the, it's at like the casting directors office. I'm like, okay. So we go in and there's, you know, DJ like DJ and Ned that the creators, the producers. And they're like, Hey Dave, Hey guys. And they said, you know, You, you you've been really trying to like get in the room, haven't you? Like, I was like, oh God, that's this mortifying. Like I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, and they said, you know, well, we, you know, we had to, we had to audition a bunch of people, but, but we wrote a role in the series for you.
7 (39m 12s):
And they were like, so what do you say? Like, like, is this, am I being punked? Like what's happening right now? So,
1 (39m 21s):
Oh my God. I just feel so. And I just want to say, I don't think there's any coincidence that it was in Canada where people are fucking nice.
7 (39m 30s):
Right? Yeah.
1 (39m 32s):
Anyway,
7 (39m 34s):
This is a
1 (39m 34s):
Dream
7 (39m 35s):
And what happened? And, and then, you know, suddenly it was, I was off to like, we started about a month later and it, it was shot in Montreal. Like the whole series was always shot in Montreal. And, and so we did the first season and I thought, well, that's exciting. And then suddenly they were like, Hey, we're flying all of you to New York. You're going to host Snick. I was like, I don't know what that is. We don't get Nickelodeon in Canada. Like, so they suddenly, we were in Manhattan, like shooting all this promo stuff and there were billboards and we were like, what is going on? And that was, so that was like, really, I mean, you know, I did a bunch of like real garbage, like movies and things, but that was like my one little sort of touchdown in like, oh, is this, what is this?
7 (40m 17s):
What fame is like
1 (40m 18s):
Stars to be a star. And I
7 (40m 20s):
Felt a bit uneasy about it truthfully. Like I was like, I don't know that that's I could see, I could see myself on that track and I could see what that probably would be for me. And I think I worried a bit about what that would, what that would
1 (40m 38s):
A lot about that. We talk a lot about that, about like, if I had gotten famous right out of theater school, I'd be dead. I mean, I would probably have done so many drugs and then been so interacts. Like I would have killed, I would have died at
7 (40m 50s):
Some point.
2 (40m 52s):
So what does that mean? I'm projecting ahead. Does that mean your eventual move into theater was a way of stepping back from the insanity of television?
7 (41m 5s):
I mean, I wonder like, it's interesting. Cause I shouldn't say that I sort of discovered theater. Like they were happening in tandem. I was doing community theater, you know, I do like the community musical in the small town where I lived and then I'd say, Hey guys, I've got to go away for three weeks to shoot. Are you afraid of dark? I'll be back and I'll resume my role. So,
1 (41m 26s):
So
7 (41m 27s):
I think, I dunno, I think so. So, okay. So, so the show happened and then I was, I was going to a fine arts high school in their creative writing program because originally I wanted to audition for the drama program, but I had, I was already on, are you afraid of the dark at that point? And so they were like, okay, but if you have to go shoot it, like you can't just not show up for drama classes for weeks at a time. Like that's not, that's not a thing. And so I was like, oh, that's a solid point. So, but I could do that in, in creative writing because it's like, I was a studious kid. I was like, I will get everything in on time. I will fax in every assignment from Stax facts. Yeah. Right.
7 (42m 8s):
So, so towards the end of high school, I knew by then through this creative writing program was really when I, because we were writing in every genre, but I kept going back to playwriting because it was like dialogue, dialogue. I get this, like I come from film and TV. Like I get this, this is how I see the world and hear the world. So I started applying for theater schools and then, and then got cast, I got offered another series.
1 (42m 38s):
Are you fucking the greatest fucking story I've ever heard?
7 (42m 45s):
And I, and I, then this is not self-deprecating. I think I'm a, I think I'm a good play. Right. But like, I've never been a good actor ever, like, but it was a time and place where there were roles for like a vivacious fat kid. I was much bigger as a kid. And I was it like, I was that kid,
1 (43m 2s):
Right?
7 (43m 4s):
Yeah. So it's like, there were a lot
1 (43m 5s):
Of, you had a niche and
7 (43m 7s):
You really
1 (43m 7s):
Did.
7 (43m 8s):
Yeah. So it was like, I knew that, you know, oh, you're shooting, there's, there's a film coming to town about a soccer team. Right. And they're going to cast a bunch of kids, that's you? There's a fat kid role. Sure enough, there I have.
1 (43m 21s):
Well, let's talk about that because that's really interesting to me and really, I mean, I also, I was an overweight kid and I'm plus size lady now. And I know that. So tell me about that. Was there an I was there, did you have feelings about being that kid?
7 (43m 37s):
It's interesting. Cause I don't, I don't know that I had them in the moment, but my God have I had them since I, years, years later, I was in a, like an emerging filmmaker program for the queer film festival in Toronto. And I made this short film called belly, which was all about like, not, you know, not just being like, like coming of age as like a chubby gay kid and like their staff attached to that. But specifically coming of age as a chubby gay kid on camera and being chronicled as such and like, and having like, and then, you know, we edited together footage of all of these things.
7 (44m 17s):
Like, like things that I was like, I can't even believe they asked like an eight year old kids to say that on camera. Right?
1 (44m 23s):
Like, like stuff about your weight and stuff
7 (44m 26s):
Pan to this character. Anyways, we're filming this guy ends up in hospital. And so I'm the kid in the bed next to him. And he starts like chatting like, oh, Hey, what's your name? Oh, I'm Stan. Oh, what are you doing in the hospital? Oh, I'm fat. Oh, but like, what else is wrong with you? No, nothing. I'm just fat, but my parents think there's something else wrong with me. Cause I'm so fat. And I was like,
2 (44m 47s):
Wow,
7 (44m 50s):
Like how, like how potentially lethally damaging that could be. Right.
1 (44m 55s):
Did you just compartmentalize it or?
7 (44m 58s):
Well, cause I think I was like, I'm on set with like, I mean, you know, a bunch of friends who I knew, like we'd done a bunch of films together. In fact, Ryan Gosling was in that movie with us back when he was, you know, a young kid, Burt Reynolds was in it. Like, it was just like, we're doing this fun thing, but also, huh. So
2 (45m 18s):
Yeah, there's, there's just no attention paid even w cause my son is also gets called in for those roles. He only gets called in for the bully. That that's the only role he ever gets called in for it. And when he gets cast, I just feel like it starts with costume fittings. It, the otherness, the separateness starts there and it's like, they're, they're calling me back. Is this really his like, I can't are these really his measurements? Yes. These are really his measurements. Okay. And then, and then inevitably it's something like we had to, we had to, it was hard to find pants, that kind of thing and saying that to him and or in front of saying it to me, but in front of him,
7 (46m 2s):
But isn't this like, isn't this your job? Like, isn't your job finding clothing for bodies. Yeah,
1 (46m 8s):
It is. And, and, and, and I, I, yeah. And as an actor, I have the same thing. So I find that if I had been so traumatized by, by the, not just the words on sets and ER, intelligent film, but also as an actor by the crew and by the especially wardrobe and makeup and hair and, and anyway, so you compartmentalize that part of it and you also, it sounds like no one was like, mean to you to your face. Like they weren't like, oh, we can't find clothes for you. Or,
7 (46m 41s):
I mean, I, I think they were a bit, but I, but I think I was really sheltered by like really good parents. Like, and I mean, you know, cause, cause I was in, there were the kids on set who had like, you know, that stage parent who like really is there to make sure their kid is successful and make sure that kids like that. And that was not the energy I had. Like I had, you know, like my mom is, is a refugee. Like she came to Canada as a refugee. Like she grew up in a very particular context and this is a very different context where she's like, I'm just here to make sure no one is fucking with my kid. Like, and not in like an aggressive way, but just in like, okay, let's, let's walk away from this conversation.
7 (47m 23s):
We don't want to do that. So I felt I was very taken care of in that sense.
2 (47m 28s):
So you, what, describe the bridge between doing all of that and then when it's time for college and you're looking into acting program or at the beginning, that's what you were going to do as an acting program.
7 (47m 40s):
Yeah. Yeah. So I applied for a bunch of programs, like determined that I was going to be that, you know, conservatory actor. And like, I, I look back at it now and it's so funny. It's like my, like I'm trying to sort of rationalize what my 17 year old brain, like how I chose, who I applied to. It's so confused. Like I I've applied for Juilliard like two or three times in my life, but like no other, like, but it's like Juilliard and then like the local college in my town.
2 (48m 13s):
Interesting.
7 (48m 13s):
Interesting. Like what's the Juilliard connection I have anyway. I probably someone told me once probably that Juilliard was the place and that really set in somehow. So I applied for a bunch of theater schools and there was one program in particular that I was curious about because they have a conservatory program and they have a playwriting stream and they also had what they, at that time called creative ensemble. So like devised theater. And I thought like that there's something in that maybe that's a thing. So, so I got accepted to that school and that, that school is a funny way.
7 (48m 54s):
It's called York university. It's just outside of Toronto and, and I mean, I'm sure there are many theater schools like this, but at that school, like everyone starts in first year in sort of a general, like all the theater students, you don't, you don't start your conservatory till second year. So you have your first year to do some shit and then you re audition for the streams. So I went there pretty determined that I really wanted to see the conservatory stream. And then there's something about the, like, you know, my acting and movement and voice classes in first year that I was like, I, I think the writing was like kind of on the wall there of like, I'm not great at this.
1 (49m 39s):
Okay. So say more. Yeah, yeah.
7 (49m 41s):
Yeah. Like I, because I mean, I think, you know, filming TV was such a fun thing for me that I was like, this needs to be fun. And like, I think it was like, I have to learn how to work in a very different way than I think my brain, or even like how weird and disconnected from my body. I am these years. Like more than I'm prepared to do.
1 (50m 10s):
Where you at with your body in that, in terms of when you started that school, like had you sent out or like, were you still in
7 (50m 18s):
Like, like many of us, like, you know, you thin out and then you don't and then you thin out again. Sure. Cause I know that between, between my first season of our, for the arc and my second season, I lost a ton of weight. And so when I showed up for fittings the second year, there was a bit of panic in the room of like, we don't know, like, Ooh, like you're, you're like the fat country bumpkin kid, like, Ooh. Hmm. So they, they padded. Yeah. They just like, they, they put they'd put me in like really bulky layers with like things on top. Like not like actual, like a fat suit, like right. Definitely shit like went out of their way to make me heftier because I think they were like, you know, kids at home, they don't want to be like, what's with Andy looks different.
7 (51m 6s):
What's going on.
2 (51m 7s):
Right, right. Oh my God.
1 (51m 10s):
Oh my God forbid, people change. God forbid.
7 (51m 14s):
So I think, you know, I like I came out when I was probably about 15. So I think after coming out was probably when I became hyper aware of my body because you know, body image in queer men, especially in that era, I think like we're in a very different time now when I think about like body positivity and in all kinds of communities, but less so then, so I think I probably started theater school, like probably slimmer than I'd ever been, I would think, but still feeling like that was not the case.
1 (51m 58s):
Interesting. So you're in these movement classes, these voice and speech classes and you're like, I don't think this is really right for me. So then what do you do?
7 (52m 8s):
So I, I like, I, I signed up to audition for the, for the conservatory, but I also sign up to audition for ensemble. And when I look at like the actual requirements of the audition, as I'm building my materials, I'm like, I don't want to do a fucking Shakespearian monologue, like ever. I do not to this day. Like, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm an artistic director of a company here. We have a Shakespeare component. Like
1 (52m 38s):
I was going to be a hard pass on the old Shakespeare for me.
7 (52m 41s):
Yeah. I dunno. Like it's just, I think I'm, I'm so I, so contemporary in my, in my taste of everything, you know, I, I read voraciously, but I want, I like historical fiction book. That's a bit of a slog for me. So, so I think it was like, I want, I think I started to take ownership of like, I know my creativity and I know where my strengths lie and my strengths lie in creating things. And I just, I think having come from like my creative writing intensive, like high school program, I was like, I don't know if I can spend every minute of the day interpreting rather than, than creating, or at least like, I'm now sort of imbuing that with like some kind of like, I have no idea if this is actually true, that, that I had this aha moment.
7 (53m 44s):
Or if I just panicked, I was like, I don't want to learn Shakespeare. I'm going to do this thing
2 (53m 49s):
Some for some reason. And maybe it's because I know that you went on to become a drag performer, something for some reason, I have this idea that maybe what was off putting to you is this idea that you were always going to be in that context, just embodying the words that, you know, I was actually just saying this to somebody the other day, actors have a unique kind of prison as artists in the sense that if they don't go on to direct and write, which almost everybody is doing these days, but if they don't, they're, they're, they're limited to only ever expressing the words of another person.
2 (54m 32s):
And it actually makes them in many cases we've learned even from doing these interviews, not that great at talking about themselves and their way of thinking. Cause it's all just been inside and what's been outside is the words of other people. I wonder if that somehow seemed true for you even then.
7 (54m 49s):
That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, that really resonates. So I went into this, I audition for this device theater program and even just like, you know, sometimes like sometimes you just know like when, when I, when it was like, okay, this is what I have to prepare. Okay, this, this has a lot to prepare, but like, let's do it. Let's, let's go to the studio and let's just spend hours and hours and hours getting this down. And I thought like, okay, that's interesting. Like I'm really leaning into this rather than pulling away. So like, okay. So I got into that program. And
1 (55m 28s):
So this was a devised
7 (55m 30s):
Theater, so it's like third, I think 25 of us. And, and it was literally like, you know, on Monday they're like, okay, we're this week we're in groups of four, your central theme is isolation and, and you need, you know, like there'll be certain other components and you present Friday for an audience go Was, it was great. It was really, and, and I mean, and they'd give us some really specific projects and, but it was great. It was just like generative, constantly generative. And, you know, I do think, you know, if someday I end up in a TV writer's room, like it, it, it will be because of that, of just knowing that I have to make something and I have to make something, I just have to make it work in a tiny, tiny of time.
7 (56m 24s):
There's no, there's not room for like this deep contemplation up, but what, I don't know, it's just do it.
1 (56m 31s):
Oh, you're going to, that is, that is going to, if you ever did want to do TV and a TV, like I know I'm not in a writer's room, but like, from what I know, yeah. That's like extremely helpful because overthinking and second guessing in those situations is like, nobody has time, time is money and just make a choice and fucking move on versus having an hiring. So good for you. So you, so that taught you that like you just go with it.
7 (57m 3s):
Yeah. And I, and I do think that how I work as a playwright is still very much that, of, of like I, and sometimes to my detriment where it's like, just, I'm just going to dive in and just write and write and write and write rather than like, I'm going to sit, I'm going to actually like outline this thing and really figure out beat by beat where I'm headed, which I'm starting to do a bit more now in my practice. So, so yeah, I got into that program and then still took like voice and movement classes with, with some of the conservatory kids on top of that. And then also started in playwriting and dramaturgy classes because I just thought it would all support what I was doing.
2 (57m 47s):
Oh. And I'm sure it really did. I am obsessed with drag performance and I would love to know when that started for you and what the whole journey has been like.
7 (57m 58s):
Yeah. So I always, I mean, when I, when I was in theater school, I was always going out to drag shows, you know, like the, the, the gay bar was, was really like, like sacred space that, and I mean, I remember, I remember not really under Steven understanding. I remember seeing drag for the first time and thinking like, why does this happen? Like, what is this? Like, you know, like why, and also like, why is it so compelling? Because on paper, it shouldn't be right. Like, okay, so someone's going to dress up and they're going to, they're not going to sing, but they're going to lit, like, they're going to pretend they're singing to a song, but it's, but I ended up being so like when it's done well, it can be really moving.
7 (58m 49s):
And I remember like really, I think started starting to sort of study it of like, what is that, like, why is this, why does this resonate? And then got really into sort of researching the history of drag. And I had never, and I always said like, I have no intention of ever doing drag. I just love witnessing it. I find it actually quite like that shared energy, I find quite compelling and it sort of speaks to human level.
1 (59m 17s):
It sounds, you know, Jean and I are both former therapists and it, to me, it sounds therapeutic. I mean, like that's when you talk about it, like it sounds and, and, and it sounds, yeah, you said it sacred. So whenever there's sacred space, there's usually some kind of healing that goes on. Yeah.
7 (59m 37s):
Yeah. So then my, my husband, well then the guy was sort of dating. He was, I was living in Toronto. He was here in Vancouver and he came up to visit me and I introduced him to, you know, the world of drag and all these shows, which again, he'd never really participated in, but, but it became this, you know, we were there every week to see the same show with the same Queens and being really into it. And, and then we, and then I found out I got into grad school in Vancouver, so we both moved back to Vancouver. And when I arrived here, I thought like, wow, drag here is really, it's really different from, from Toronto drag. Like it's different in the structure of shows.
7 (1h 0m 19s):
It's everything about it. Like in Toronto, you know, a drag queen comes out and in one costume will, you know, do like eight numbers and talk to the audience in between. And then she rotates up in the next one comes in and then you sort of rinse and repeat. So it's just like, it's endless and like lots of
1 (1h 0m 34s):
Show kind of a thing.
7 (1h 0m 35s):
Yeah. But it's Vancouver, it's like a drag queen comes out. She does one number and address. She disappears and then the next one comes out. It's just like one number, no talking. I thought like, oh, this is odd. It's hard. It's hard for me to sort of penetrate it because there, you're not developing that rapport with an audience. So, so we were sort of watching a show one night, having just seen all these magical shows in Toronto and saw the show that was just not particularly moving. And I remember leaning into my husband saying, you could do way better than this and not wanting to be those naysayers who just shit all over everyone else's efforts without actually doing anything. We said, yeah, actually like, let's do that.
7 (1h 1m 19s):
And so my husband had started a theater company here in Vancouver and I come from a bit of a fundraising background and, you know, they had no grant, they had no money to, to, to do the first show. So I said, you know, let me run some events. I used to run some events in Toronto and let's have you as the drag queen star. And then for years and years, I mean, our, our events took off and, and you know, at first we're doing them quarterly and then monthly and then weekly. And, and we really were living like the like casual fall kind of life. Like I was the producer who carried the bags and, and he was the star. And then as he's a, he's a theater director.
7 (1h 1m 59s):
So as he then had to go direct a show, I was like the, the understudy. And I started hosting his show just on sort of on a whim. I was like, I'll do this once because I really want to make some tip money because I've been producing the show for free for years. And it'd be great to just be able to pay my liquors Hab. And I did it, and it was really magical. And, and it was like, and also kind of emotional because I was like, oh, Hey child, actor, Dave, who did this thing for years and years, and then stopped how you doing there you are.
7 (1h 2m 39s):
Hmm. Interesting. And so it's stock and I've been doing it regularly for a decade and had a weekly show. And yeah,
2 (1h 2m 51s):
I was expecting you to say so that you then started in Vancouver, the kind of drag that you really related to more in Toronto. Is that, is that how it worked out?
7 (1h 3m 2s):
Yeah, we just sort of, yeah. Yeah. I think, and I mean, we, you know, we still do a lot of shows. Like we do guest spots on other people's shows that still have that sort of Vancouver structure. But yeah, I started, I started a show here called shame spiral, which was literally, I show up in and outfit. I do have a guest in the show and, you know, she prepares some numbers, but I don't know what I'm performing on any given night. So I have, what's called the blender of shame, which is an actual blender with the blades removed full of a hundred different songs on pieces of paper. And so when it's time for me to do, like, I talked to the audience relentlessly, when it's time to do a number on audience member comes up, picks a number, it brings it directly to the DJ.
7 (1h 3m 44s):
And then the whole gimmick is like, will she even, will she know this? Will she even recognize it from the opening bars? Let's see what happens. And so it's like this gag that everyone's in on
2 (1h 3m 56s):
And,
7 (1h 3m 58s):
And yeah, and, and it became, it was just so different than anything. Cause everyone was so used to like, Nope, you have to be in the exact outfit. That's in the music video to do that song. And I'm like, well, no, this week I'm going to be in this sort of like flowy number. And maybe I'm getting Shirley Bassey or maybe I'm getting Nicki Minaj or maybe I'm getting Dolly Parkin. And any of those songs are going to happen in what I'm wearing.
2 (1h 4m 21s):
What's it like to do Nicki Minaj number in a flowing Therese?
7 (1h 4m 26s):
Well, it's great. Actually, it's wild. I actually broke into the drags in here by doing Nicki Minaj. Right? Like just did wrapper drag, which is very weird to think about, but it's, you know, it's my, my husband talks, we both get interviewed about drag a lot, I think because we're like the theater professionals who are also drag Queens in the city. So we sort of straddle two worlds that are pretty associated, but a bit loosely. And he always talks about how drag is part, part, foot soldier and part court jester of like, like the, you know, the court gesture is the only person who can like make fun of the king without losing his head.
7 (1h 5m 9s):
And that's why Queens, like people listen to drag Queens, you know, you have Mike time and people will listen. So you really gotta make sure, you know what you have to say. And we take that very seriously. Like as a result, you know, we get hired to do political interviews with candidates running for premier here. Like,
1 (1h 5m 28s):
Oh,
7 (1h 5m 29s):
Cause it's just like, because you can, you can sort of penetrate a bit further than if Dave was interviewing someone because there's a certain grand jury and a certain shirt that's so performed, but it, it gives you, it gives you entrance. So
1 (1h 5m 46s):
Well, gee, do you have any idea? Cause of what goes on in my head when I hear this as like, oh, they should have a television show, like a talk show where they in drag, you know, they, that those characters interview do hard hitting interviews, but as queen, as drag, that'd be great. That'd be fantastic because also what I love, what I love about what you're saying is that the mixture of yeah. Being able to it's so worth humans are so funny. It's like if someone puts on a beautiful costume or a funny costume or a crazy costume or whatever kind of costume, and then asks you a question, there is like even a hard hitting question.
1 (1h 6m 27s):
There's a, what is it? It softens the blow of reality, I think. And it sort of can be make-believe, but it's not really make-believe, which is what I think is great about that is also reminds me of like Sasha Baron Cohen stuff, which is where if you put on a character, you can sort of get away with a lot of shit. And also you can pinpoint in without people taking you too seriously. And so when someone's not taking you so seriously, they're apt to actually tell you the truth more Like, what does it matter? I'm just talking, I'm just talking to these Queens. Like there's, it's so fun. It's so fun.
1 (1h 7m 8s):
And then all of a sudden they're dropping these serious. Now they're getting into serious stuff. And you're like, oh, like when I watched stuff like Sasha Baron Cohen, I'm Baron Cohen. I'm like, oh, oh my God, this is so intense and deep. And yet I don't really feel like I'm going to go off the deep end because it's under this guise of quote font. Right. It's like, whoa, it's real deep. It's like a real deep, it's like a real multi-layered. So I, I love this idea that you interviewed. Do you work as a team?
7 (1h 7m 37s):
Yeah, quite, quite a bit. Not always, but, but quite a bit. We do everything to, I mean, we, we run a company together. We raise a kid together. We do drag together. He directs the plays. Most of the plays that I write.
2 (1h 7m 50s):
And so you haven't been performing, but I just saw on your Instagram that it's you're reopened and you're, you've got to show up or coming up soon.
7 (1h 8m 1s):
Yeah. So I, so, so my husband runs a company called ZZ theater and I, which I have worked with and for, for 14 years. And so ZZ is doing its first show in its first live show. In two years, we did a full season during pandemic, which, you know, great. I'm glad we did it. And we were able to employ a lot of artists, but it's not, it's not what we're designed to do. Right. We're we're theater artists, so we're not filmmakers. So it's really exciting there that we're, it we're in rehearsal right now. But then about five months ago I started a new job. So I'm the artistic, the courts of second managing director of the children's theater here in Vancouver.
7 (1h 8m 42s):
And so we just opened our first show in two years yesterday and
1 (1h 8m 48s):
Oh, congratulations. What how'd it go? What are you doing?
7 (1h 8m 51s):
It went really well. I mean, yeah, it's, it's a show called Groth. It's a sort of a, an adaptation of the three Billy goats gruff. That's, that's really actually like quite beautiful and timely because it really deals with, with immigration and displacement and like who, who does or does not deserve to be in a place that has resource it's really, but, you know, but in like in a, in a whimsical digestible musical piece for kids, so that's really exciting.
1 (1h 9m 29s):
And then my other question is can you mix kids theater and drag?
7 (1h 9m 32s):
Oh, we do. Yeah. I mean, we do a lot of drag queen story time, but also the children's festival here in Vancouver commissioned our company ZZ a couple years ago to create a drag show for kids, which we perform with our son. Just the three of us.
2 (1h 9m 50s):
Oh, he performed.
7 (1h 9m 53s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 9m 53s):
Wow. Amazing.
7 (1h 9m 55s):
Yeah. The first time we did it, he was, I mean, he was like a year and a half. So he, you know, he, he was basically acute prop, you know, like he like the Simba reveal in lion king. He was the lion, right. Like genuinely in the show. And we're about to do, they sort of recommissioned the show because of course, you know, we did the show and then in 2020, we'd been booked to tour that show to every children's festival in Canada. And then clearly we all know if that didn't happen.
1 (1h 10m 26s):
Right.
7 (1h 10m 26s):
So the festival has actually recommissioned the show now because it's very different doing a show with a four year old because he like, he's like, I want my own numbers. We're like, okay. But let's figure it out.
2 (1h 10m 39s):
Oh, damn. He wants his numbers. Oh. And you're
1 (1h 10m 44s):
Figuring
2 (1h 10m 45s):
It out. You're giving him his own numbers.
7 (1h 10m 47s):
Well, we're figuring it out. So what we're doing, we have a bunch of studio time in April to, to sort of build two tracks for the show of like, here's the show we do when Dexter wants to do the show and here's the show we do went backstage. He's like, I'm not doing that. And we're like, I honor that because if this isn't fun for you, we're not doing it. Like we've had a bunch of requests over the pandemic for like us to do the show, like live on zoom. And we, we tried doing it once and it was just not fun for our kids. So we're like, yeah, we're not doing that. That's this has to be fun for him. If this is not fun for him, there's no point.
1 (1h 11m 24s):
Which is what your parents did for you when you were acting. That's amazing. I, I want to shift gears a little bit to ask you the question that I always want to ask people from Canada, which is, what do you think of us down here? Like, what is seriously? Like, what do you think of us? I mean, I've dated weirdly a lot of Canadians, but not in a while, since I've been married, which is good. I haven't been dating them while I've been married. But so I would love to know, like when you look at us, what the hell, what is the general thing about us, our theater, our lives down here. We never talked to people in other countries to be quite honest.
7 (1h 12m 4s):
Well, I mean, I have a lot, like a lot of people who I'm very close to are American and live in America. And I I've spent Tom, you know, a lot of time in, in various parts of America, what continues to blow my mind actually about the U S is like how many states there are and how different they all are. And like 10 times, you know, when I visit, you know, like I I've been working on a show for Nashville children's theater. And so when I'm down in Nashville, I'm always like, wow, like this is the same country as when I visit port San Francisco or Portland, like it's kind of mind blowing. And I mean, you know, we have a lot of provinces too, but like not really, we have, you know, between provinces and territories, we've got like 13, 13 total.
7 (1h 12m 51s):
Right. And, and I mean, not that any of them are a monolith and you know, different parts of the province, obviously there are different, but that continues to be wild. I think, I think we're living in a super complex time is what I think. And I think, I think it's really dangerous for anyone to perceive the people of a particular place as being a particular thing, you know?
1 (1h 13m 18s):
Yeah.
7 (1h 13m 19s):
I, yeah, like, I, I don't know. We have, we have family who live in rural Texas, so we've, we've spent a bunch of time there. Church is super memorable every time.
1 (1h 13m 36s):
But like, I guess my question is I'll get really specific. Do you like feel you personally, I don't know how all Canadians feel and I'm certainly not going to get in touch with all my exes right now, but I do like, piteous that we're such a mess down here.
7 (1h 13m 53s):
Yes.
1 (1h 13m 55s):
Yeah.
7 (1h 13m 55s):
I, I w I worry, I genuinely worry because I think, Yeah, the like, the world feels really scary right now. And, and I think because, because Canada and the U S are intertwined in some ways, and, and then also like completely removed from one another in others to see like how our politics are really like creeping and interweaving right now. And not for the better is, is it scares me. It keeps me up at night for sure. Yup.
1 (1h 14m 33s):
Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's enough. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. But I liked that. You said, yeah. Yeah. Like you kind of like, look, look and say, oh God, because, because it re it really resonates with me. And it mirrors to me my own feelings of, oh God, what are we doing? Yeah. And so it's nice to actually have it reflected in someone that doesn't live here. Say, oh God, not that kid is perfect. Now what I'm saying, but I'm saying is you look at us and say, yeah. Oh God, you're right. You're living in, it's weird. What's happening here. So thank you for that.
2 (1h 15m 4s):
So getting back to theater school, this was a F it was a four year program at York. Okay. And when you graduate with another thing we always ask people is when you graduated, did you feel prepared for the job market? Did you feel like your school? I mean, now you're an exception because you were already in the job market before you went to theater school,
7 (1h 15m 26s):
But in a different job market. Yeah. Right. Like, I don't think my child actor work in any way prepared me for how to carve out a life in the theater. Right. Cause it's just especially like, like auditioning for film and TV versus how do I become a playwright. Right. Like, it's just, I, what I will say is, is theater school, the best thing that ever happened to me, I think in my entire career happened while I was in theater school, which was, every student had to take a class called theater management. And the, the sort of, it was all about grant writing.
7 (1h 16m 7s):
So we, yeah. So our final project was to write an operating grant for a fictional theater company that we came up with for the Canada council, for the arts, which is, you know, a grant that I write all the time now. And the professor actually put together like a jury, like a mock jury. So you had to submit the application and either the jury approved it or they did it. And that was how that was your grade.
1 (1h 16m 36s):
Did you get approved?
7 (1h 16m 37s):
I did. I did. But what I liked about it is that like it, you know, you don't, they're not just like make this grant. They're like, okay. So the first part, like first we have to come up, you have to figure out your company. So this week you need to work on your company mandate. And here's how that should look and then submit it. And if you, if you don't pass, work on it and resubmit it and like, so it wasn't pass or fail, it was like,
1 (1h 16m 60s):
I teach teaching you.
7 (1h 17m 6s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 17m 6s):
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
7 (1h 17m 7s):
No, no. So, so I mean that, like, so I felt, I can't say that. I felt like, oh, okay. I can just go out and get all these grants because no theater student is getting grants immediately. But I was fortunate that I was. And I think maybe because I think probably because of my fine arts high school, where in the, in the literary arts program, we had to submit like, as part of our grade, we had to submit our writing to like at least 10 publications per term. So we were like really used to like sending things out. So, you know, even when I was in doing in theater school, I, as I was writing little short, really not great plays, I was sending them to companies, which in retrospect, I'm like, I can't even believe I had the gall to send this.
7 (1h 17m 53s):
Like, but you know, like, and sometimes I would get responses one time, you know, I got invited to come in and have a chat with the ID, which like led to a commission like a year later, you know? So it's just, I, I think I had enough gall to just be really pushy, but I definitely would, I definitely took a lot of more established artists out for coffee to say, like, how, like, I know all the things like you're this playwright and you also act, but like, how do you pay your bills from month to month? Like I asked that question a lot and, you know, I think was both saddened, but also relieved to hear that everyone was doing it in a piecemeal way.
7 (1h 18m 46s):
Right. Like, oh, well I do this voice gig. And then, you know, on Saturdays I do this other, like, you know, I'm, I pretend to be a patient for doctors and training, like all these little gigs. You're like, oh, okay.
2 (1h 18m 59s):
So when you graduated, what did you imagine would be the next steps? And then what actually were the next steps?
7 (1h 19m 11s):
I think, I think I somehow thought that, you know, you, you, you self produce a play and then it's a hit and then people pick it up and then like the theaters in town, remount it. And then they commission you to write more. And that's it because that's, you know, because that's a trajectory of like two people I know. And therefore that's probably what happens. And, and instead, I, I think, you know, I, I self produced a lot of stuff and, but like often not stuff that I had written, like, you know, my favorite playwright, Michelle humbly, this Quebecois God who I'm obsessed with.
7 (1h 19m 54s):
And he's the reason I became a playwright. I found out that he'd written the play. He's now like 70, and he'd written a play when he was, I think, like 15 or 16 that won a playwriting. And so it was produced in France and it had never been translated into English. So I was like, I'm going to get the rights to that. And I'm going to translate it and I'm going to premiere it. And I did, I did all those things and like, nobody really cared, but I cared.
1 (1h 20m 24s):
It was like, but
7 (1h 20m 25s):
Like I cared because it was like, I'm learning how to produce. And I got so many things wrong, but people were very kind and, you know, like the local theater critic called me to be like, Hey, I just got your, your press release and your press kit, do you have time to chat? And I was like, yeah. And he walked me through, like, this part was really good, but this, like, you're actually missing some information here. So you should think about adding this next time. And I was like, what a generous kind, man, like he could have just ignored this and said, she's not going to that talk it. So, you know, I, I had a lot of mentors who I like, he ended up being one of my key mentors for years and years and years.
7 (1h 21m 5s):
And I, I was very fortunate that a lot of people I think were taken by the heart that I bring to the table and everything I do. And which is why, you know, now that I've found myself in a leadership position, I very much like, you know, it's like, let's pull artists up into leadership. Let's, let's like courage people let's answer every email show up to everything.
1 (1h 21m 34s):
What, I guess I'm going to turn the question back on you like posts. So posts, theater school, you took people out and you said hat. So my question for you is how do you pay your bills from month to month? Cause people like, do you, are you going to salary? Do you pay yourself? How does that,
7 (1h 21m 48s):
I mean, since, since the fall, when I got this new job, now I have a salary. Yes. But up until then, you know, a lot of people like, God knows a lot of theater folk, like either are bartenders or servers and drag for me was my bread and butter for years. Yeah. So, you know, between my weekly show and then like, I would get some corporate gigs and that became, that was what I could rely on. So
1 (1h 22m 17s):
Corporate drag.
7 (1h 22m 19s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 22m 20s):
I mean,
7 (1h 22m 21s):
RuPaul changed everything, right? Like now people are like, Ooh, drags. Interesting. And it's actually not as scary as we thought.
1 (1h 22m 28s):
Understood, understood.
2 (1h 22m 29s):
I, one of the reasons I'm obsessed with it right now is, is it only recently occurred to me that what people are doing with it is creating their entire, even though it's a character they're creating in a sense, their entire personal narrative from beginning to end, they have complete control over the story. That is the story and the image that is going to be presented. And it, and the people who seem the most successful at it, which was the thing I was going to say about you are unshakeable in their belief about who they are and who this character like you can't, I'm, I'm
1 (1h 23m 12s):
Undeniable,
2 (1h 23m 14s):
They're undeniable. And you seem like a person who carries around sort of a natural sense of yourself and confidence. Did that come when you think from having great parents or w, and maybe you also were just born with a predisposition to finding equilibrium.
7 (1h 23m 33s):
It's so interesting. Like now, now we're like, we're getting deep here. Like, it's so interesting to hear that because that's not my perception of myself. You know what I mean? Like I had this whole conversation with my mother yesterday about, you know, I'm, I'm almost 40 and, and just sort of, I think, starting to like, have these aha moments about myself, of like interesting, like, it's interesting to hear people reflect what they take in versus what's happening in here. Right. So I was like, oh, confident. Okay, cool. That's, that's cool. But I'm glad that, that, that, that, that some someone's buying that. So, because I do like, I, I think, you know, I, I, I constantly am like, am I good at anything that I do?
7 (1h 24m 17s):
Like, there's a constant self-evaluation, which in many ways can be crippling, but I also think is a powerful, powerful thing to be constantly fighting because it means I don't, I, I, I can't be complacent ever.
1 (1h 24m 35s):
Well, also there's a humility about it. That is, that is necessary to like, curiosity about am I actually like, what am I projecting? What am I doing? And what am I like? There, there comes a real, like facing the present versus compartmentalizing and saying little, like taking stock, I would say is a great thing instead of just either compartmentalizing or lying to ourselves and, and it could become crippling, but it sounds like for you, that sort of sense of what am I doing? Am I, you, you seem really curious about life and about your own process and the older I get, the more I realize that curiosity is the thing that's going to save us because there's not judgment in it.
7 (1h 25m 22s):
Like earlier in our conversation when I said, you know, I know that I'm a good playwright. I was really testing that out. Like, that's new. I've never, I don't think I've ever said that. I was like, let's see how this lands.
2 (1h 25m 32s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 25m 32s):
How did it feel? How did it feel to say that
7 (1h 25m 34s):
That felt good actually, Just cause I, you know, I'm, I'm really, I'm, I'm sort of, it's my film, TV, friends that I'm starting, like who I'm spending more time with that. I'm like, whoa, like the way you talk about yourself is so cool. I've never met people who are like, I'm like, I'm a great actor. So like they could cast someone else if they want it to be terrible, because I'm the best. And I'm like, right. Oh, cool.
1 (1h 25m 59s):
I love witnessing
2 (1h 26m 0s):
Dave. I mean, surely you don't still think not a good actor.
7 (1h 26m 6s):
I think I'm a good drag queen, but, and truthfully, like I I've now started bringing my drag practice, my playwriting practice together more and more like my, my plays are some of the ones I'm working on now or dealing with drag, I'm writing a solo show for peach cobbler to perform. And that I think I can do because peach is, is safe. Like, I feel pretty, I don't want to say invincible, but
1 (1h 26m 40s):
There's like impenetrable.
7 (1h 26m 43s):
Impenetrable is the right word.
1 (1h 26m 44s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 26m 45s):
Oh, I may everybody have a peach cobbler, their lives
1 (1h 26m 51s):
We need. So like, we need that. And I think everyone has a different, hopefully finds a different version of that. Even if they don't do drag, even if they're not a drag artist, it's like find the version of you that can show up and have, and not be penetrated by garbage all day, all night, you know? Like,
7 (1h 27m 13s):
Cause
1 (1h 27m 14s):
Then it's even if it's your own garbage, even if it's your own garbage right. To like, I know that if I'm on in a meeting or something like that, I will still think, oh, you could be, you could be garbage, but I won't let it in. It's like, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But here we go. We have things to do here versus really, you know, so that's my version of that. But I feel like drag is it's just, so what is it? It is just such a, like a weapon and also a it's a weapon and a
2 (1h 27m 50s):
Branch at the same time,
1 (1h 27m 52s):
Olive branch at the same time.
5 (1h 28m 2s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Should we take offense that it's Women's History month? (history has not exactly honored women.) Gina had a rough re-entry from vacation, the Disney enchantment, the expense of having kids, the pleasures of one on one time, Junipero Serra was also a monster, Whitey Bulger, networking.
Let Me Run This By You: Is Drag Race sexist?, Sasha Velour,
Interview: We talk to Rebecca Spence about Hendrix College, Phantom of the Opera with Linda Eder, Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons, Erin Gray, taking the Christmas pageant quite seriously, Syler Thomas, being the preacher's daughter, playing Adelaide in Guys and Dolls and the Stage Manager in Our Town, Tisch, Zelda Fichandler, Mary Beth Fisher, Carmen Roman, Deanna Dunagan, Ora Jones, Amy Morton, Steppenwolf, Goodman Theatre, Every Brilliant Thing, Cyrano at Milwaukee Rep, beauty privilege, aging as an actress, Linda Evangelista, how Rebecca sees herself in terms of the cultural shift in American theatre, the accessibility benefit of digital theatre.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school
1 (12s):
Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
And it's 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (22s):
And you will too. Are we famous yet? February one, one month behind my friend one month by,
2 (37s):
Well, it's March 1st happy women's history month.
1 (41s):
I didn't even know that's how bad of a woman I am.
2 (45s):
Oh, well I was just thinking like, should we take offense that it's, you know, black history and women's history, like it's all in the past, you know, like why with both of those groups of people, we don't really want to be in the past.
1 (1m 2s):
Oh. And in fact there is a t-shirt that says that people love that. I have the same thought that says the future. Wait, the future of film is female. And I'm like, what about the present of film?
2 (1m 17s):
Right, right. Write
1 (1m 19s):
About like, I don't have a lot of time. I'm 46. Like what are you talking about the future? I mean, I can't be talking about the future. So I, I think the more we can get things in the present, the better off we are,
2 (1m 33s):
The better off we are now you're back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I did not want to come back. I did not leave my vacation. I did not wanna leave 80 degree weather and no responsibilities and fun all day. And it was our, a free entry
1 (1m 53s):
Monday, really? For everybody, just
2 (1m 55s):
You or well, for everybody. But for my part, it was getting in on a very late plane, not getting home till one 30 in the morning. It's two inches of ice on my driveway. So I'm like doing slapstick, trying to get my luggage to my door. My daughter's asleep. Oh my, I took the wrong key. I didn't have the right. I didn't have my house key. I don't know what the key is that I took. And so luckily, I mean, I guess I, nobody knows my address, but luckily we have a door that we often leave unlocked and it was unlocked.
2 (2m 45s):
So we got in and I got my daughter upstairs and I said, just go to sleep. I'll take care of everything. And she was like, yeah, of course, of course. I'm like, I'm not taking care of anything right now. So I remembered that we had some snow melt. I smelled, I go get it. And of course, when I walked into this door, that's usually unlocked. I immediately locked it saying like, we really shouldn't be leaving this open all the time. Oh my God. I know what's coming. I think, keep going, keep going though. And then I get my little ice smell and I go to the back and I closed the door because it's 20 degrees. And I don't want to let all the more mare out. And I happily salt my steps and get the luggage and bring it back up.
2 (3m 30s):
And the door was locked because the door was locked and I still don't have a key. And that my daughter is fast asleep. And not only is she slowly, I've already turned on the white noise machine. So if I ring the doorbell, if I had any chance of her hearing me, which it's pretty scant. And in any case, because she's a heavy sleeper, I've now masked the sound and it's cold, it's cold. And you, I immediately would be like, I have to eat this ice melt. That's not sane. That did not occur to me. Here's what occurred to me. I'm wearing leggings a t-shirt and a thin sweatshirt because I was just in 80 degree weather and sneakers.
2 (4m 12s):
I have no hat. I have no code. I have no gloves. I don't even have a key to the car. That's in the driveway because it's my husband's car. And why would I have a key to that? And we do have a garage code that has been broken for like a year. So I guess I should fix that for next time. I'm in this situation. Yeah. And I just tried ringing the doorbell and I tried yelling her name, you know, from down to like I'm in Romeo and Juliet, just yelling up to her window to the family in Utah. They weren't back. Oh my God.
2 (4m 55s):
I'm like, what the hell am I going to do? Walk to my neighbors at two in the morning and, and do what use, oh, and I didn't mind my phone was inside of, oh my God. Even if I had my phone, what am I going to do? Call my daughter. She doesn't have a cellphone. So I was in a real quandary. I was, I was in a pickle. So here's what I'd come to. I'm going to throw a heavy Boulder through our glass door so that I could get in. And then I'm going to tape it up with cardboard because I must get inside of my house. And then I remembered that another security breach we have is that our window in our dining room that goes directly onto our porch is never locked and very easy to climb through.
2 (5m 43s):
So that's what I did. And I didn't get to sleep until 3:00 AM. And that's just, that was just like, that was just, of course that was my reentry. Like there could have been no other reentry because ending your vacation sucks, sucks,
1 (5m 60s):
Bad. It
2 (6m 0s):
Really sucks. The greatest period of time is like the two weeks before your vacation, when you're getting psyched and then your vacation. And then for me, about two days before it's over, I'm like, oh God, I have to go.
1 (6m 12s):
I, I, I mean, you know, we're, I am really bad at transitions. Like I remember as an actor being told that to like, and I remember thinking that, and I remember thinking that's perfect. Like that, that makes perfect sense. I'm not shocked. And it makes perfect sense. I, there were no transitions in my childhood. It was like, you're being thrown here and then you're being thrown it. And so this all makes sense. And also it to be fair, your vacation did look fucking brilliant.
2 (6m 43s):
Like my vacation was like a
1 (6m 46s):
Dream.
2 (6m 47s):
It was like a dream come true. Honestly, like I kept being like, why is this so amazing? And I, I do. I do think, I, I think I understand now why Disney has the stranglehold on everybody's wallets that it does. It's because for many people, it is a place where your childhood is openly defended and encouraged and people don't get that. You know, and most people don't get that in other realms of their life. And you know, there's a lot of adult, only groups of people at Disney.
2 (7m 28s):
Like I even read a review of our hotel that was complaining about the number of children there. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's called the all star movies. It's like the it's 101 Dalmatian themed and toy story and Fantasia. And I'm thinking, wow, this couple went here thinking, oh,
1 (7m 50s):
People visionary tear like they without no, no, no. There are. Yeah, no, you're right on eighties. I think you've really, really hit the nail on the head. When you said that it's people's childhood encouraged, like, are you kidding me? Like senior pictures. I was like, oh, I'm going there. And I don't care if I go alone. Like, I don't give a fuck. You're going to see me alone. Wandering through Disneyland. Happy as a fucking clam.
2 (8m 19s):
Do you like rollercoasters? No. Oh, you don't like roller coasters. I was going to say, well, let's go together because I didn't get to ride one single roller coaster.
1 (8m 25s):
I will go with you. I would go if I trusted the person, I'm always just like, because I'm so neurotic. I'm like, do I want to die with this person? If I'm with some weird, like, you know, whatever. No I would go with you.
2 (8m 40s):
Well, let me tell you that. I don't know when the last time you went to like a six flags was, but the difference between your run of the mill amusement park and Disney is like the difference between coach on spirit, airline and first class Emirates. Yeah, exactly. It's just, they really, they really curate the experience for you. And I'm so fascinated by all of the work that has gone into just that, like all of the work that has gone into, and we, we had a classmate at the theater school who worked at Disney before she went to theater school and I'm drawing a blank on her name, blonde blonde hair.
2 (9m 23s):
And she told us about some of the rules. They have rules about how long your fingernails could be. And they had rules about your earrings and they had rules. I think some of those rules have changed because I'm pretty sure you didn't used to be able to show tattoos. I think you couldn't have dreadlocks before. Like it was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. So, so they've put a lot of effort into preserving the magic, right? Like you can't, there's this underground tunnel system. So you don't see the characters in there. Cause my daughter kept saying, oh, it was so sweet. She said, there's this hotel that's right near the park. And she said, why didn't we stay at that hotel? And I said, because it's like $3,000 a night. And she said, oh, I bet that's where the princess is live.
2 (10m 7s):
And I said, yeah, maybe. And I, and it was, as you recall, we went through this whole Santa's Easter bunny thing and she's she's hip to that. So I didn't challenge her assumption, but a couple of days later she did. And she said, well, they're not really princesses. They're really people who put on princess dresses. So they probably don't live here. I said, yeah, they probably don't. She said, where do I live? And I said, in an apartment, and I just saw the look on her face, like imagining, you know, Ariel living in her studio in like Florida. Right. And I live in Orlando having gone to theater school and then like, what am I doing? But you know what she's doing? She's fucking making dreams come fucking true is what she's done is like, honestly, it's the Lauren's work.
2 (10m 53s):
I felt like because they have these opportunities for you to meet the princesses, you know? And these people know their characters so well to the point that I can never hear Cinderella, she talks so quietly. I can never hear what she's saying. The, the girl, the woman who plays Rapunzel, that character talked a million miles an hour, she talks a million miles an hour. They read and they just know the ins and outs of their movies, such that they're constantly referencing. Like when, when we met Jasmine, she said, have you seen my monkey?
2 (11m 35s):
A pu I mean, and Clarissa was like, no, is she around here? Like, we'll, we'll go look for him. They really draw you in to the world. Do they are master storytellers? That's what they are Disney is. And these people, their whole,
1 (11m 54s):
I know people that go on Disney cruises that are like, I would live on this boat if I could.
2 (12m 2s):
Yeah, man. It's so enticing. It, it really is. And I, and I found myself being like, okay, this is like a museum product. It's a vacation. Like, but I think it made it harder to leave Mo a lot of times I have to say, especially since having kids, no offense to my kids. A lot of times when I come back from vacations, I'm like so relieved for it to be over because I've had to do so much work. I mean, traveling with one kid, who's pretty, self-sufficient was very easy to put a whole new spin on a family vacation.
1 (12m 38s):
It's my new thing, which is one-on-one time. So what I noticed in your pictures and social media was that when it's one-on-one time and I just had my niece here, right? Yes. I want to hear all about that. One-on-one time is so much different than family time. And I never had one-on-one time with either of my parents. Not that I really wanted it, but like, it was always trying to force groups or other families with our family. And I think one-on-one time people don't like to do because it's so intimate. And I, and I get that. But I also think when I saw your pictures, what I noticed was a genuine happiness and a knot in your face and your daughter's face, but also like a fun, it looked like fun.
1 (13m 27s):
And a lot of times when you see family fucking pictures, everyone looks miserable, miserable, miserable, miserable, miserable, and it's no one's fault, but that is the jam. It is miserable to be in a group.
2 (13m 37s):
It is miserable. And actually, as we were walking around, she kept saying, why is that? Dad's screaming at his kid? Like there was a moment where somebody was, I didn't observe it, but there was a baby crying. And how she reported it to me was that this mother told the baby to stop crying. And I said, well, you know, we're not having that experience because you're not a baby. And because we're not all together, but we've had a lot of experiences like that. You know, I'm glad that you don't necessarily think, look at that and say, oh, that's just like our family. But that is just like our family when we're all together,
1 (14m 17s):
It's a dynamic. So this is my whole, my whole like new way of seeing things. Not new way. But like w what helps me get through situation is like, oh, this is a dynamic problem. It is, it is a energetic, interpersonal problem. It's not one, one person's fault. But like, I now will never, I said to my niece, like, I only want to do one on one time with, with each of you. Great
2 (14m 45s):
Idea. Great idea. So how did that whole thing
1 (14m 47s):
Come to be? So I really wanted to, so each I have taken my nephew and my niece, the oldest one on solo trips, right. To two different places. But the youngest has never been, and then the pandemic hit. And so I was like, wait a second. This isn't fair. Not that life is fair, but I like to keep things kind of like, I don't want her being like, what the hell? I'm the youngest? Cause I was the youngest. I get it. So I was like, all right, I want a lease to come out here. But by herself, without my sister, without the kids, without George, like, no, no, no, no, no. Also our place is so small. Only one person could fit in it. Right. So a small person.
1 (15m 28s):
And so I said to my sister for her 13th birthday, which was Sunday, I want to fly Elise out. And so that's what I did. And she, she had president's day, right? So she, she missed one day of school because me and Mr. Davis school to do something with my sister and at least came and we had a blast one-on-one man, I'm all about trying to help the dynamic, not be unmanageable for myself and for others, but I'm really thinking about myself. Like
2 (15m 60s):
Probably so appreciated the attention she got. Right. Because I'm sure there's not much opportunity for her to get individual attention.
1 (16m 8s):
It's not practical. It just doesn't happen. There's so much going on. And you know, and, and so we had a blast. Now look, one thing that I was telling my therapist yesterday, I was like, oh, this is what I realized about children. They're fucking a lot of energy, even one brilliant child, right. That is, is just being a child. That's turning 13, no problems. Still, a lot of energy goes out cause she's, you know, and they're fucking expensive. So I don't care. I mean, I don't, I know nothing about, I know 100th of what the costs would be, but I'm like, oh my God.
1 (16m 48s):
And we weren't even doing crazy shit. We were so like, for people to say like, oh, a family of four or five can live on 50,000, $50,000. I'm like, are you, I spent like $50,000 in three days that I don't have, what are you talking about?
2 (17m 3s):
This is why, I mean, I have avoided saying miss in the past, but this is why we make so much money and have nothing. I mean, we have our house, we have a house, we own a house and we own cars. Yeah. But we have nothing else. We have nothing else. We have no savings. We have nothing else because 100% of our money goes to this very expensive thing we've chosen to do, which is
1 (17m 28s):
Yeah. And, and I have so much, I'm like, oh my God. Just even light. Yeah. Just life. Just not even buying. I mean, we didn't go crazy. We didn't go to Beverly Hills. We're not like living. Okay. So we went to, she got in really late Friday night and we went to, then we slept in a little bit. And then we went to the beach, went to my favorite beach, which is a unibrow beach who I found out was a terrible ruler that killed a lot of indigenous people, which is sad. But anyway, yeah. Paradise, Sarah that bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, man. I thought he was a Franciscan monk. I don't know my okay. I don't know.
1 (18m 9s):
Anyway. So it was like, oh, you know, he killed a bunch of indigenous people. I'm like, oh, that's great. Anyway. So we went to that beach in long beach, my favorite beach. Cause it's super chill. It's not a scene. It's not like Malibu. It's not like it's like down home. I love long beach. Right. And I also have an affinity to long beach because my ex lived there who passed away. So I like long beach, a lot. I have like special memories of that. And so we did that. We went, we ate like I now, because we moved to the pandemic. I had no reference for good food in my, in my neighborhood, in Pasadena, in LA none. So I was like, all right, we're gonna use this as an opportunity to explore dude, look, it has no, it doesn't hold a candle to Chicago.
1 (18m 55s):
Cause that's just how, you know, Chicago. I always tell people like Chicago is the best food and you'll die of a heart attack, but like, you'll eat the best food. We found great restaurants that we ate at. We, so we did a lot of eating. We did a lot of walking, walking around. We did some walks, some hikes. She obsessed with my dog Doris. And she was really, really good with her. Like trained her. Like she's really, she and her brother are both really into training dogs. So she did a lot of training with Torres, which I kept up zero. And then I just, I just don't care. And then I just don't, that's the truth. And we just really spent time together talking about life and about, you know, her, her life as a 13 year old and teenage stuff.
1 (19m 42s):
And, but it was, it was only, it was like she got in Friday night, she was here Saturday, all day, Sunday, all day, Monday, all day. She left Tuesday afternoon. I was so exhausted. I was like, I don't know. I have. So again, I have so much respect for her parents and people who are engaged with their kids. That's what I'll say. Like people who actually are trying to fucking be engaged. It's it's insane. I don't know how anyone has time to do anything else. Let me run this by, You know, I go into my little phases with the content I'm consuming and right now I'm really deep into con reconsider.
1 (20m 31s):
This is an old love that I kind of got away from drag race. Oh, right. Yeah. And I never had this thought before and I'm not, I don't have a judgment about it really either way. It's truly just a curiosity.
2 (20m 47s):
Curious to know what your thoughts are. Did you ever watch
1 (20m 49s):
That show? So I watched it a long time ago when it first came out. Did they remounted like, is there's different incarnations?
2 (20m 57s):
Yeah. They're on like season 13 or something like that. Yeah.
1 (21m 0s):
I watched it at the beginning when I also got into project runway and I got into America's next top model and all that stuff. Yeah. I, I, it wasn't my thing. It just didn't, it didn't compel me. Like I wanted it to love it and I, it's not, what is it about me? It is that, or the show. It's not my type of reality show in that. I just don't care enough. It's you know, about fat, like the fashion, the fashion. I, I'm more interested in the psychological component and at least at the beginning, it wasn't a huge part of the show.
2 (21m 45s):
Yeah. Well, for me it is the clue. Remember on star search when they used to have acting that acting component and it was so boring to watch, you know, because it's just not the same as singing and dancing. Right. Even I, as a little kid was like, this is boring. I didn't want to watch the acting part of star search. So we don't have an acting reality competition show. Drag race is the closest thing we have to because drag is theater, you know, it's creating character it's it's and, and there, the art has elevated to such a degree that the people who are really killing it are doing things that you would not imagine are drag and they're not wearing breastplates and they're not, they're just there.
2 (22m 37s):
And it's part of this whole concept of gender fluidity, which I'm really interested in. But my, my question is, is it inherently sexist that these men are doing female impersonations, right? Because, and a big part of it is the humor. And I just had this mode of being like, wait, is the fundamental conceit here that we're laughing at men being women, because why would you be a woman when you can be a man? I just, yeah, it may not be. And, and many, many drag artists may be feminists may consider themselves feminist.
2 (23m 22s):
I think RuPaul is not necessarily a feminist and he's not, he's not necessarily anti-racist. I mean, I think he's problematic in his own way, but it just occurred to me like, what am I laughing at this idea about just being a woman? Are we, are we trivializing? And we're making it frivolous.
1 (23m 43s):
It's so interesting. Like, I mean, think that it goes, what comes to mind is also like, how do the artists identify? Like, do they identify as, as, as non, you know, non-conforming or, or, or, or how, how did they feel?
2 (23m 60s):
Right. That's been an interesting evolution in the show actually from the first season. I think they they've had, they had at least one person who through the course of doing, it said, actually, I'm not, I don't really want to do drag. I want to be a woman. I am a woman. There's, there's been that. And I haven't really followed it closely, but there has been some controversy about like, well, if you have a woman, a trans woman on the show, then is it still drag? Right. So there's all these questions. I don't really know where that debate sits at the present moment, but I do know that very many people who consider themselves drag artists don't consider themselves men in any way.
1 (24m 43s):
So it's like, right. I, so that, that then leads me to be super curious about yes, like can cat it become one. It reminded me of Shakespeare when she experienced time pretending to be women. And it was always, you know, women weren't allowed to be actors or whatever, and they, and they also like, you know, they would make fun in a higher sort of, even a intellectual way. They were making fun of the, the weaker sex, whatever. So, yes, I think there's a part of it that we're just laughing at the horror show that is being a woman. And then the other thing that I was thinking about was I think you're onto something when, if we can transform it from being about that, to being about elevating art too.
1 (25m 29s):
Like when you said things that you wouldn't that piques my interest, wouldn't consider quote, drag. That is like, where I think we're headed in theater, right?
2 (25m 38s):
Like, oh yes, we must be. I mean, if we are to survive, we must be headed in that way.
1 (25m 44s):
Can you give me an example of like what, what you wouldn't consider drag that is like,
2 (25m 50s):
I got there's this drag artists named Sasha Valore and sh I'm right now, I'm on season. I forget if it's eight or nine, it might be nine. And she Sasha the lore does L well, first of all, and I think he identifies as a man. He does his art is political and intellectual. And he's one of these people who doesn't wear fake breasts. He does, he, what he does is he covers his nipples with pastries and, and, but builds the most beautiful garments around a look around an idea blend.
2 (26m 31s):
And, and it's rough. What I love is when it's referencing so many different things, when he explains his outfit later, he's like, well, this is a reference to Marlena Dietrich. And this is, this is a reference to, you know, the, how the gay culture in Russia exists because it's, you know, it's illegal to dress in drag there and, and homosexuality is not outright illegal, but it's, you know, obviously not a way that you want to go around presenting yourself. It's just this elevated conversation. I mean, the first time I ever saw actual drag was in Las Vegas at a show, I was a teenager and I couldn't believe I'd never seen it before.
2 (27m 15s):
I couldn't believe how much this man looked like a woman. And that's what the drag was. It was all about pretty much straight forward, like glamor looking as feminine as possible. And it has just come a long way since then. And now it's about, it's really just about embodying characters.
1 (27m 34s):
So yeah, you love storytelling. So this is what I'm getting at from the Disney thing. And from this is that you love detailed nuance, researched and referenced storytelling. Totally. That is your jam. So
2 (27m 51s):
It was my mind when, when all of these disparate things can come together into one cohesive piece of art. That's what I like in plays. That's what I like in books. That's what I like him.
1 (28m 1s):
So that's really interesting to know. Like, I think also like, yeah, for me, what I like is yes, super detailed, specific thought out things like I remember my favorite thing as a kid was pop-up books that had teeny little hidden parts that you wouldn't expect to have a tab that have it. That was my fucking jam. I was like, that is what I like about television is when there's callbacks or references or little Easter eggs, or like where you're like, oh my God, oh my God. Oh my God. Did you notice that the, you know, like I get into that because it means ultimately that people fucking care what they're doing.
1 (28m 45s):
Yeah,
2 (28m 46s):
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. That's what really gets you. That people care Today on the podcast we are talking to Rebecca, Rebecca is an actor. And if you live in Chicago and see theater, there's a very good chance that you've seen her on more than one occasion in more than one brilliant star Trek. She also does film and television. She's got actually a television series, 61st street. She's in Candyman, that's out in theaters right now.
2 (29m 26s):
She was in one of my favorite shows, easy, which featured a lot of great Chicago actors. We didn't really talk about any of that. We talked about her as dying love for Chicago theater and her absolute respect for the actors that make it happen. So please enjoy our with Rebecca Spence
3 (29m 52s):
Podcast or a voiceover.
2 (29m 55s):
What's the matter with you? Why don't you get with it podcast or be a professional podcast? It's so easy. Honestly, you just break right into the market. You get tons of downloads. And
3 (30m 9s):
This is what I hear. It's amazing that I haven't jumped on this bandwagon yet. I don't know.
2 (30m 14s):
I will say the number, the apex of active podcasts or podcasts that were downloadable in the pandemic was 2 million up from 750,000 before the pandemic.
3 (30m 29s):
I absolutely
2 (30m 30s):
Believe it's trending back down because I think people realize like it's kind of a lot of work to maintain something every week. So, you know, we're just hoping to get back into that sweet spot. Maybe even less people will do it and we'll get down to like half a million. So then we'll really have a chance. Anyway, congratulations, Rebecca Spence, you survived theater school. Wait, wait. You're, you're looking, you're looking like you don't agree with me.
3 (30m 59s):
I, I I'd like to reframe it a little bit. I, I survived a theater major. I did not survive the grad school audition process. I Did not into the theater school.
2 (31m 18s):
We've often said we should call it. We should really call this. I survived my desire to be famous, whether you became famous or not, you know, like you have to contend with your, with your desire for us,
1 (31m 29s):
Never went to grad school for you went to undergrad and you got a theater major, and then you, and then you went to you, you auditioned for grad schools and didn't get it. What, how could Rebecca Spence that fucking get into grad school? Are you kidding me?
3 (31m 43s):
No. What I was doing, I didn't have a clue what I was doing. So I, but I can say that my audition process for grad school is what brought me to Chicago and, and made me fall in love with Chicago. And ultimately helps me choose Chicago as a home base, which is where I've had my education. I, my entire education in theater has been through observing and watching people very, very, very good at what they do. And
2 (32m 15s):
Just observing or asking people. I mean, you said you didn't know what you were doing when you were auditioning, but
3 (32m 21s):
Yeah, I went to my, I had, I don't know anything to compare it to. I think I had a great theater experience in, at my tiny little school. We had a three professor department and they were wonderful. I, I looked at some conservatories for undergrad and I just wasn't entirely sure if that was what I wanted to do. Cause I didn't know anything about professional theater, not a thing I grew up in, in, in Texas. I had, I think I saw maybe one professional production.
3 (33m 2s):
I had a friend whose parents were into musicals and they gifted me with an evening to go see Phantom of the opera with Linda ETR of all people. So I'm like, if you're going to get an experience seeing it, that was great. But I knew I wasn't a musical person. I didn't have that kind of gift. And I didn't know what, like I never had seen regional theater. I had never gone to
1 (33m 29s):
Like a play
3 (33m 30s):
Play. No, I think my parents took me to a community college production of glass, menagerie,
1 (33m 39s):
Light fodder for a child have to say like, what is coming forward for me when you're talking about, you're not the first person to say like a musical with the first introduction to any kind of acting and they get a bad rap, sometimes musicals, but they're a gateway for so many kiddos. It's like magic. I'm like obsessed with musicals now.
3 (34m 7s):
Yeah. I I'm the youngest of three girls by a large margin. My sisters are nine and 11 years older than I am. And so they would put on plays and then stick me in them. So I was kind of dressed up a lot and they'd be like, go say this. And I would do that. And I've got
1 (34m 27s):
Actors now. What's that? Are
3 (34m 29s):
They actors now? Okay. No, not at all. No. We just had very active imaginations. And so I, but I loved it. I, I always wanted to be, I had a very active imagination and, and wanted to, I knew I wanted to act like I, I want it to be on silver spoons. Oh,
1 (34m 50s):
Well, here we are facing. I always, I always thought that the line was here. We are faced to face a Comella silver spoons. Somehow someone informed me that Kamala, wasn't a real word. You guys. And so I was like, wait, what do you, they were like, what did you just say? They're like, say it again. And they were like, you know, that's not the line, but anyway, you want it to be in silver. Did you want to be on like, Ricky's like sister or anything? Like you just wanted to be in that world?
3 (35m 26s):
Oh no. I had a whole, I had a whole plot line. Oh yeah, no. I was also going to be adopted into the family. Oh yeah. They were, I, I was also going to be adopted into the family, but then of course we were going to become love interest. Of course it's very twisted. I was, I was quite convinced. I, you know, Aaron Gray was going to be my mother. Oh. I also loved buck Rogers. So it was a big club look, Roger. So I kind of followed Erin gray. I thought she was quite possibly the most glamorous woman I'd ever seen. And that's not true.
3 (36m 6s):
Doris Day was, but I wanted to be parented by
1 (36m 13s):
Yes. I mean, that's like me and like my modern day telling Brian Cox, I wanted him to be my new father. Right. And that didn't, he was like, people have told me that before. It was actually, it's a real thing. So like, okay, so you, you want it to be that. And then how did that translate Rebecca into like actually studying it? Because like, how did you know? It was a thing
3 (36m 37s):
I started doing a lot of plays in church. I did a lot of church. Like I was married about 12 times. It feels like, and I remember taking, I remember my like little, my first like actual play. I remember, I think I had been four and I was married and I took it really seriously. And the little boy who was playing Joseph, who also happened to be named Joey was not taking it seriously. And he kept taking his little robe and throwing it over his head. And I remember being livid, absolutely livid. I just was, I was so disappointed because I really felt like I was giving off as many, like holy maternal vibes as I possibly could.
3 (37m 26s):
And he, he wasn't up to the task.
1 (37m 28s):
Did you find it, did he get fired or like, did he get recast recast?
3 (37m 33s):
I I, no. No, no. I mean, my memory is being up in front of the, I don't remember any group kind of rehearsal process. I just remember being up there and holding my little baby doll and feeling very pious Over. And Joey was like screwing with a shepherd.
1 (37m 54s):
That's fantastic. I am Joey, by the way, I would be the Joey. I'd be like doing dance moves and they'd be like this one, but here's the thing
3 (38m 3s):
Laughing. And that's why it was because people were laughing and they, you know, he was drawing attention and laughing. And I was like, I don't remember this being a comedy. This is a comment
1 (38m 19s):
Here's, what's interesting about that story for me is that you w I've never worked with you as an actor, but I know from being around you and seeing you work, that you are not enough, and this is not, well, I'll just say it like, you are like a consummate per actor. Like you, you take this shit seriously, which I adore, which I actually learned from people like that. But like, you are very kind and lovely, but you also are a fucking professional actor. And there is like, I know that sounds so obvious, but you know what I mean? Like there are people like Joey that fuck around at age four, which is fine. He's four. But like the fact that you didn't fuck around as Mary at age four, I think is actually an important thing in your, in your history because you take this shit seriously.
1 (39m 7s):
Also. You're like you work all the time, which is fantastic, which I don't think there's a coincidence there. That's all I'm saying. That's all. Yeah.
3 (39m 19s):
Thank you. I mean, I knew I wanted to do, I played a lot alone. I mean, I was alone all the time. So I was constantly like perfecting different personalities. I mean, because I moved as much as I did, we moved every two and a half to three years. I had like an opportunity to like, be put into different scenarios. And that was just like a playground for me to, to, well, first of all, it was survival. It was trying to figure out where am I? How do I fit in? How do I make friends? What what's like that group of people doing and how do I sort of evolve and adapt. So that they'll speak to me.
1 (39m 57s):
Did you move because of your family? Were you a military situation?
3 (40m 2s):
God's military? My, my father was an Episcopal priest, tiny segue. I listened to your podcasts and I'm the one that, that I just delighted and was listening to Siler. Thomas. I knew Siler Thomas from church camp. I had no idea Seiler Thomas. Wasn't cool. We, I grew up sort of adjacent to, to him. He's older than I am. So he was in a much like cooler hipper, older church crap. And, but we went to like all of the same, like regional functional things.
3 (40m 47s):
Cause my father was an Episcopal priest. And so he was very active in youth stuff. And so I went with him. That's how I know Seiler camp counselor. And I was a camper and I had no clue that he was a theater person. No, I can't
2 (41m 5s):
Wait to tell him. I can't wait to tell him
3 (41m 7s):
We reconnected sort of over Facebook, but I haven't seen him, but I listened to his entire podcast and I, I, I got really, I got really excited.
2 (41m 15s):
Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's fantastic. What I would have done if I had to move every couple of years is I would have pretended that I was British. When I came to a new school. Did you ever adopt new, like a really different
3 (41m 31s):
Personality? No, I couldn't. We were always sort of presented, like we were kind of presented as a family so that wouldn't have ever worked out for me. I did have a friend though in the sixth grade, my friend, Susan. And it was the first time we in, I was in Waco, Texas, and we went to all the sixth graders, went to one school for me, entire city were busted into a sixth grade center and we would rotate classes and she, and I would come up with like each class that we were in. We would have completely different personalities. We would like today where the really loud Rawkus girls and today were very shy and reserved, but today where the pranksters.
3 (42m 17s):
And
1 (42m 18s):
So you did go to theater school cause that's all we did. So there
2 (42m 23s):
Starting at four years old, you started your year to school
3 (42m 25s):
Training.
2 (42m 28s):
Yeah. So when you finally, when it was time for college, you were considering conservatories, but decided not to. How did you pick the school that you went to Hendrix?
3 (42m 41s):
I picked Hendricks because they had a theater program and my parents said that I had to be within a day's drive. And so they said, we can, you can go to school, but we have to be able to be able to drive to you within 12 hours, if anything happens. So I went 10 and a half hours away to two Hendricks college in Arkansas and had a pretty campus. And I, I knew, I, I knew I wanted to do theater. I had started doing more professional place, not professional, but, but really high quality plays in high school.
3 (43m 21s):
And I knew that I wanted to keep doing that. I really loved it. I just sort of disappeared into that. And that was, that was a safe way to build quick family, you know, do you found your people really fast? And I, I, that, that felt good to me. So I really enjoyed it. And
2 (43m 41s):
Were they known for having a great theater department?
3 (43m 45s):
No, but they built, so I did my freshman year, we moved in the middle of my eighth grade year and I had one freshman year in a, in a really small, small town in Southeast Texas or S yeah, it was near the coast and that didn't, that didn't go so well for me. And I ended up being sent to boarding school.
1 (44m 13s):
What did you do? Were you depressed?
3 (44m 15s):
Very poor choices and trying to, in trying to, to fit in, what is it,
1 (44m 21s):
Does that mean? What does that mean? Did you smoke cigarettes or like kill people? What happened like
3 (44m 27s):
In the middle? No, I, I had some substance stuff happened. I found the substances are pretty early in like, like an eighth grade. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. I mean, we, we lived in the town that I lived in was known for grass farming and rodeo, and we didn't have anything to do. There was no, there was no movie theater. We didn't have a Walmart. We didn't have a skating rink there. It was,
1 (44m 57s):
It's like Footloose the toast.
3 (44m 60s):
So what we did is we went out to fields and drank like, that's true. That was what you did. So I, I, I wanted to do that. So I drank a lot and then I got caught a lot. And so my parents had a panic and sent me to boarding school in Austin, which they had a, really a growing theater department. And by the time I graduated, they had built this huge complex. So my senior year was the first year they sort of became an art school. So I kind of said goodbye. I mean, our first production was like, I remember they flew in some flats from Las Vegas.
3 (45m 42s):
I want to say we did guys and dolls, but we had like actual professional flats. And it was like my senior year. I was like, oh my God
1 (45m 51s):
Star, were you the star Rebecca? I was
3 (45m 53s):
Adelaide Adelaide. And then I got to be the stage manager in our town. So that was, but of course I, I didn't know what that meant. I wanted to be Emily,
1 (46m 5s):
Emily, of course. And then there were
3 (46m 7s):
Like stage manager and I was like, what? I'm stage managing the play? Like, I clearly hadn't read the whole play. I just read what I was like. I didn't know that that meant I had more to do. And it ended up being like a really, really meaningful, beautiful experience.
2 (46m 24s):
And just getting back to like the making. Cause I, I really love talking about making bad decisions. Would you say that you kind of did the, there is a trope of a preacher's daughter getting in to trouble? Is that what happened to you? Yeah, it was a rebellion against,
3 (46m 43s):
I mean, I, I just, you know, is there either the really, really good girl or the really, really bad girl and I, I, I didn't want to be the really, really,
1 (46m 56s):
Really hard position to be like, I can't imagine, like, even if your parents are like the nicest people there, again, there's a status thing that happens when there's someone in the community is touted as a certain thing. Like it's like royalty a little bit in America. Like we don't have, you know, so it's like you it's like, and then you're expected to behave a certain way. And as much as I had, like, I would say very little care and guidance in some ways I also didn't have a lot of pressure to be a certain way because we were all just like, there was no title. Like my parents didn't do anything. So it's, it's a tricky situation. But what I'm, what I'm also noticing is that the, the poor decision making and the drinking and they're getting caught actually was, it led to some really good fucking theater like that.
1 (47m 46s):
You went to Austin and you got to do like really good acting work. So it worked. I mean, you know, it wasn't a, it wasn't an all a bad thing. So you were like, yes,
3 (47m 58s):
I have learned more from my, my failures than I have ever learned from my successes. And I've had a lot of failures. I've had a lot of,
1 (48m 8s):
You know, something that I can speak to from being in like an insider in Chicago or formerly, and now in California, but being at a Chicago actor is like, everybody, I want to talk about the pressure in Chicago. So you are one of those people in Chicago that everyone's like, oh, Rebecca Spence books, everything. And I know it's not, I listen. I'm not saying it's true. This is what I'm saying. Let's get to the heart of the thing that I want to ask, which is from being on the I'm now on the outside looking in. Right. So what is it like? Cause that's always something that I heard and it has actually very little to do with you with other people's shit.
1 (48m 48s):
Right? It's not, I'm not saying you are doing anything, but what I'm asking as a woman and a performer, what is it like? And it's easy for me to do now because I'm in LA. So I don't give a, you know, like it's like, what does it feel like to have that kind of pressure of people, first of all, are you aware of it? That people are like Rebecca spins, books, everything. And then how does that affect you? And do you want to tell them to go fuck off? Or are you like, I work really hard.
3 (49m 14s):
Well, this, if this I'll take it two steps back, because this is a Testament to how much I, I love and admire Chicago theater. My understanding, I, I didn't get into theater school because I sabotage my auditions because I didn't know what kind of an actor I wanted to be. I actually, I choked. I freaked out because I thought that if you wanted to be an actor that meant that you wanted to be famous. And, and so I went to NYU, I came to Chicago to audition for theater school that I did the errata and auditioned for NYU Tisch.
3 (49m 56s):
And then I crashed the Harvard art. I didn't know you could crash. And somebody said you did. So I just got in line and I crashed the Harvard auditions. I made it to the final rounds of, of Tish. And I flew to New York and had a solid panic attack. I just, I didn't know anything about New York. I had, I came from tiny town in Texas. I had never been to Chicago. I had never been to New York. I didn't have a smartphone. I didn't know how to get around. I, I met Zelda. I met, you know, I did all the stuff. I was like, I can't afford this. I don't, I don't know what this is. I don't know what I'm doing. And I, I P I straight up chokes and, and really sabotage my own audition.
3 (50m 40s):
But I liked Chicago and my husband got a job here and we moved here and then somebody said, you know, I needed to find a job. I didn't even know. They were like, what about the Goodman theater? And I, I was like, I don't even know what that is. And I didn't know what, like actual regional theater was. And I ended up getting a job in development at, at the Goodman theater, because I was too scared to act. Cause I thought I don't actually know what I'm doing. I didn't know how to do like prepare a monologue very well. I had done that my senior year in college. Like we prepared one monologue. I didn't know like how to go through that whole process. But I started working at the Goodman. I started watching, I saw Chicago actors come on stage.
3 (51m 24s):
And it was people like Mary Beth Fisher, people like Carmen, Roman people like Deanna Dunnigan. Like people, people like Ora Jones. Like that was when I started hearing when they were like, oh, oh, oh my God. Or Jones is going to be on say, oh my God, Amy Morton. I'm like, who wait, who are these people who wait, who are these people? And like, people that I started hanging out like the theater crowd, when they started speaking about these people and their work ethic, I was like, that's what I want. I want to be a well-respected name in a medium sized town.
3 (52m 5s):
That's that to me is how I know I've made it. If people are like, oh, oh, we want to go see that show because I guarantee you, you're going to see someone who has put in the time, put in the effort, they're going to bring nuance. They're going to bring, you know, a craft to it. That was my goal. That's. And so when I hear that, there's part of me, that's like, I still don't know what I'm doing, but the little ego part in the back of my brain is like, it's what we've always wanted.
1 (52m 38s):
Yeah, no.
3 (52m 39s):
I wanted to be a respected actor in a town that who, whose work? I respect so much. I fucking love Chicago actors. And I love Chicago theater. I don't think there's any better theater in the country. I think that, that the work ethic and the quality of people that go in and do the work and bring, bring their hearts and their souls to it. That's all I've ever wanted to be a part of. So when you say, when you're like, oh, she works all the time. I'm like, I, I, I don't, I mean, I do work, but there's part of me. It's like, oh my God, maybe we're doing it. Maybe
1 (53m 17s):
I can tell you right now, Rebecca Spence, that you are doing the thing. Because when I saw you in, what was it? Every brilliant thing is that the, It was, it was beautiful. And when I saw it, I was like, oh yeah, this is why she, she books. She works all the time. It's all relative. Right. But that thing of she works all the time. But like, this is why it actually is because you're good at what you do. And you're also, like you said, you actually really care about the thing we were talking about. Caring, like Disney really cares how they take care of their parks. Like, that's a, that's a segue, but like, that's the, the point is that you, you, the care that you put into your, your art is very desirable, right?
1 (54m 5s):
Like people want to work with that. And I think in Chicago, there is this sense of, we're just sometimes we're just there to make it to the next place. But what it sounds like for you is like, this is your place
3 (54m 18s):
I'm here. Like this is, I have no desire to move to New York. I have no desire to move. I'm doing exactly what I always like. I'm doing more than I ever thought I ever hoped that I could do.
2 (54m 33s):
Like, wow.
1 (54m 34s):
I mean,
3 (54m 35s):
I ever thought that I hook could hope to do so. I am. I'm always really grateful because I,
2 (54m 46s):
Yeah, honestly, I, I really think that more people could stand to do that, to have as their goal. You know what, one of the things that has come out of this glut of information put out us all the time is this concept of like exceptionalism and that you only really hear reflected or, or echoed or amplified stories of people who are exceptional. People who make millions of dollars or people who, whatever graduate Harvard when they're 10 years old. And it, one of the casualties of it is that I think people who are forming their identities don't necessarily get enough examples of people who are achieving anything in the middle, you know, any kind of other success.
2 (55m 36s):
And, and we know how much these extreme successes lead to like tragedy. In a lot of cases, we'd be doing ourselves a favor. If we could put more stories of like, I aimed for this thing, that is not the, you know, the outer limit, but is, you know, difficult to do, but was obtainable for me. I think that would be,
1 (55m 57s):
I think it's so good. And I think that the, the also the, the irony or whatever it is is that now you, you, in terms of, in terms of film and television, you do book that work too, but it's not because your it's like you, that was your goal. And, and all this theater stuff is just sort of there it's like that work comes because of the, what you have done build the platform. And I think Gina, what you're speaking about is nobody's building the fucking platform on which to stand. So it's like all of a sudden, they're just catapulted on this platform at the top of the sky, and there's nowhere to go, but fall. Right. So you've done the work to build the platform, Rebecca.
1 (56m 40s):
And I think that that's, that's rare that doesn't happen. And I think that's fricking amazing because you have something to stand on. You're not like floating in LA like on a pedestal about,
3 (56m 53s):
I wouldn't do well in LA. I don't think I, I don't think I would do well there. I could maybe hang out in New York, but I don't think LA would, I liked LA. I went out there for just a brief moment just to see what it felt like. And people are like, oh, you're going to love it, or you're going to hate it. And I didn't feel either way. I, I liked it. I mean, I, I, wasn't responsible for living there and getting rent, paying rent. I was staying in a friend's pool house. And so I had a place to live for a month and I had one audition. So I hiked, it did a lot of hiking, which was great. And I found little pockets there, but I've thought, I don't think I could live in a town that is just constantly cycling around one industry.
3 (57m 41s):
And that was kind of how I've always operated. I didn't want to go to a conservatory because I was like, there's way more to me than just acting like, I, I love, I, I like, I love what I do it's but it's not the only thing that drives me. Like I like theater and acting is, is the thing that I love most, most of all, but I really there, I love Chicago, so there's so much more to do than just
2 (58m 10s):
So true. So I keep thinking about a little Rebecca and little Joey, we've heard a lot of stories about people who, when they were in college, feeling resentful about P other people who they felt like didn't take it seriously enough people, you know, like a common thing is a person who had to work really hard to get a full ride because they couldn't have afforded it to go to college otherwise. And then to be there with people who are partying instead of, you know, spending a hundred percent of their time dedicated to what they're doing. Does that come up for you now working on something now, do you encounter people who you feel maybe aren't fully appreciating the opportunity they're being given or, or at this level now, are you mostly with people who take it very seriously to,
3 (59m 3s):
Yeah, I haven't had that. And I mean, most of the people that I work with are really just so excited to be in the room. I mean, I, I, I th I can think of one instance when I was doing non-equity theater in a basement somewhere for, for, I was the only female in the entire, in the entire production, like cast, crew, everything. It was, it was me. And it was a bunch of guys that were kind of jerking around a little bit and it affected, it was like a really serious play.
3 (59m 45s):
And I remember one of them pulled up a pretty, I don't want to say dangerous, dangerous is too extreme of a term, but it was a play. It was days of wine and roses, which was, and you know, where I have to, the character ends up drink in some, but they, they changed the bottle and put actual alcohol in it onstage, and didn't tell me. And so I chugged and had like a thing of alcohol and I was like, and nobody would fess up to it. Like nobody who did, who did it? Y'all who did that? Just like tell me, and no one would, would, would fess up to it.
3 (1h 0m 26s):
And then I was like, this sucks. Yeah. That's actually, that's the only time I can think of when I was like, I'm, I'm putting my heart and soul into it for the most part. No, I've never, I thought, what about upset or like, is everyone you're working with really like, to joke around too. I mean, I, yeah, what I do on stage, I take very silly, but I love to play. I'm a prankster. I liked to, I I'm very silly. I like to be silly. I, I love people that are having a fantastic time. And when I know that it's not like messing up somebody else's process I'll jump right in.
3 (1h 1m 7s):
Cause I, I like it. So I haven't had any, what's a, what's a favorite project. Gosh, there've been, there've been a lot. I did a production of a three person Cyrano up at Milwaukee rep and it was the first time I'd ever left Chicago. And we did a three person version of, of Cyrano where we did made all of the sound effects ourselves.
3 (1h 1m 49s):
And so we switched characters and jumped and I had never done anything like that of like sort of it wasn't devised, but it, it, it was much more deconstructed than anything that I had ever been a part of. And it was, and we toured it. We toured it all around Wisconsin and into Minnesota and I'd, I'd never done it. I'd never done summer stock. I had never done anything like that. And we were this little Merry band of three, plus our manager in a, in a van driving all over making, you know, I was, we would do the sword fights and I would, I would use the foils and make all the sound effects and sheets.
3 (1h 2m 30s):
And I just thought that was, it was, it was a great time. I love it.
1 (1h 2m 34s):
Why did you love it? Like what, what you just love doing the like, cause it was the first time you did it or like what was the feeling that you were like, this is fucking awesome. Wow.
3 (1h 2m 44s):
Creative thing. And we surprise so many people because we made like the set was made out of ladders and like we would make the set and I love surprising the audience cause they would come in, they'd be like, what the, what is this? Like, are you like, oh God, we're gonna watch people like create out of boxes. See it, like, you're going to take me on one of these like craft paper theater projects and what am I getting myself into? And with just like a little thing of twinkle lights and we, and I was working with these two phenomenal actors, Reese, Madigan, and Ted Daisy, who work at Milwaukee rep all the time out and, and Oregon Shakespeare.
3 (1h 3m 25s):
And they do a lot of Oregon Shakespeare work. And we just played, we played in, played in, played in plate. It was, it was playing. And yet then we would have these like gut punch moments and it, I had just never done anything like that. I had always been put in sort of very traditional roles and nobody usually allowed me to step outside of those boxes. And I, I did it and had such, such a good time doing it.
1 (1h 3m 53s):
That leads me to my question about beauty. Okay. So I'm obsessed with this idea of beauty as, as a, as it relates to how people that are, are how we relate to our own beauty or feeling lack thereof or so, you know, you, I would say for me, you like a stunning, stunning woman. And, and I would like to know what is your relationship like? I mean, it's a very, it's a very intense question, but I am obsessed with it. What is your relationship like to your own idea of your beauty? Because people, because what you said, really trait triggered something in me of like people usually put me in these traditional roles, which to me means like beautiful wife, a beautiful mother, a girlfriend, a blah.
1 (1h 4m 46s):
And as you age, like talk all about that because people will say like Rebecca Spence is gorgeous and I agree and I want to know what is it like? And I guess it's sort of hard if you're the fish in the water, but like tell me, what's your relationship like to the way your own looks?
3 (1h 5m 2s):
Sure. You know, I, I, I fully acknowledged that I've had duty privilege. Like I've fully acknowledged that that has been a part of my progress. And you know, it has been something that has put me in roles. Like I was never the ingenue ever. I was never the Juliet. I was always the lady capital. I was always, cause I had always had a lower register and I always looked mature. I had a very classic features. And so I was always like lady Croom, lady Capulets.
3 (1h 5m 43s):
I was always like the bitter aunt. And it's kind of, I was Jean Brody, you know, like I got to, to have these sort of larger power play or things, which I always wanted. I wanted to play more powerful than I wanted to play pretty because I knew that I was always viewed as such. And you know, it's, I know that I've been allowed into a lot of rooms because of how I look. I think maybe that's why my drive is so strong because I want to back it up.
3 (1h 6m 24s):
Like I don't, it's very important to me that I bring work ethic and integrity and talent to, to, to that so that as I age and as I grow and as this goes away or transforms and evolves that I'm leaning more on, on, on the thing behind it. And, and aging as, as someone who is it's real, like it's, it's a real ego check when you were always called in for the beautiful wife and now you're starting to be called in for, you know, other roles.
3 (1h 7m 11s):
And, and this isn't a it's I know how it sounds like I always like know and feel
1 (1h 7m 18s):
No, no, no, no. Here's the thing. You're the one, you're the first person that we've talked to that we've said like, Hey, like I remember we interviewed someone and Gina brought this up to someone and was like, you're very beautiful. Like, what's it like to, and the person could not acknowledge that they, because they were, I think, I don't know what was going on. I assume they were afraid to sound vain, but here's the thing. It doesn't sound any kind of way. What sounds, what it sounds is like, you're trying to make sense of the way the world sees you, which actually isn't about you either. It's like, and yet acknowledge the privilege.
1 (1h 8m 0s):
So you're the first woman that we've talked to that has said, yeah, like I acknowledged like this got me into rooms, but I want to back it up instead of pretending that it doesn't exist. Right. Because,
3 (1h 8m 12s):
Because for anybody to lie, I, you know, I remember being, I remember being in a room and I was like, I was like, you're beautiful. And she was like, oh, I just am fat. And I'm like, come on. You know, I was like, come on, don't do it. Like it doesn't, it's, it's, it's so insulting to people that, that, that, that, like, let's be the thing I've tried to do is truly be objective about my work and, and who I like to. So you have to be objective about, like, I know what I look like. I know what I bring in, so what else do I add to it?
3 (1h 8m 52s):
And I it's something that I will never forget because, and after that, I know when we were very young, who is doing really, really well right now, and she is, you know, a self identified fat actress and like that, that is how she works in the world. And it's, she's, she's just phenomenal. But she was the daughter of a, of a beauty queen. Like her mother was a beautiful, beautiful woman. And she was like having to grow up with, you know, under, under someone that was beautiful. She's like I had to watch watching her age was one of the most painful things I could have ever witnessed because she was so used to being the most beautiful woman in the world, in the room.
3 (1h 9m 42s):
Like that was her identity was she didn't have to do too much else because she was the most beautiful woman in the room. And when she aged and those things started to fade it, she had sort of lost her identity. And that, that conversation has stuck with me for forever. I was like, don't ever be the person that, that your exterior is the only thing you have.
2 (1h 10m 4s):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's awesome. I think it's fantastic that you acknowledge your beauty privilege, but I also acknowledge that there is a prison aspect to it too, or certainly when one is young, you know, where you can only be considered, you know, for a certain type of role, it can be just as limiting. And then if you go to that,
3 (1h 10m 28s):
Because of it, I mean, I I've been told, I lost I've lost roles where something is really, really, really excited about. And they were like, you're too, you are too classically attractive to be relatable. And I was like,
2 (1h 10m 45s):
Yeah,
3 (1h 10m 46s):
Being relatable is my jam. Right, right. What I worked so hard to do, I wouldn't be relatable. And I'm, you won't allow me out of that. And then of course, you know, I've got to sit back and I'm like, look, people have to face this kind of feedback on a completely dip. So, you know, I was like, then I mean that it sucked. And I, and I grieved that. I was like, but, but this is this industry that, and other people face that in tote for D for a myriad of different other reasons, they are told based off of how they look that they aren't right for the role. And I, I always knew that, but I was like, God, that sucks.
1 (1h 11m 26s):
And I'm thinking of like, yeah. And, and,
3 (1h 11m 31s):
And know it. And you don't want to tell anybody about it because no one, no one's going to be like, oh, that's horrible.
1 (1h 11m 37s):
Right. Right. I mean, it's this thing of you don't of course you don't want to, but I'm also just aware of like, like, I was obsessed with this whole story of Linda Evangelista who got face surgery, and then she finally showed her face and she looks fucking fine to me. Like, it's not about that. It's not about her face. It was about, it was no, no. I mean, literally it she's. I read the whole thing too. She, she calls herself deformed. She has like some fat that comes up over her bra
3 (1h 12m 13s):
Solidified. It's hard. Like, oh, that's true. Yeah. It's painful and hard. And,
1 (1h 12m 20s):
But the thing is like the, it is for me, what, what it brought forward was like from the outside, right outside, looking at Linda Evangelista, she's still one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen with her without her deformity. But it doesn't matter because she is not her identity was this model. Right. Which probably screwed her for life and also offered her privileges beyond my wildest dreams. Both are true. So I guess what it brings forward is like, everything about this journey is a combo fucking platter. You kinda have the privilege of beauty without also being in a prison.
1 (1h 13m 1s):
You cannot have the privilege of, you know, like for me, I kind of have the compassion that I have for humans. If I had not gone through what I had gone through as a child, especially an overweight child, like gum, it comes together. And I think we're so used to seeing people as, oh, that's Rebecca Spence. This is what she does. And this is how her life, it's not that way. And I think that's one of my life goals is to just show people through my writing and my work. Like this is a fucking combo platter. People like you don't get one way, like Linda Evangelista said, she feels like the most ugly person. And she acknowledged that she was a model and made millions of dollars doing it.
1 (1h 13m 42s):
So like, it's both, you're both, you're both things I give you permission. I give everyone permission to have both the prison and the privilege. I know it's not my job to do, but that's what I would wish on the world if I was running shit, which I'm not. So there we go. But anyway, that's my rant about you. I just really am focused on like asking women, especially like, what is it like, you know, especially as we get older to like change and it's a real
3 (1h 14m 10s):
Ego knock, I'm, you know, I'm not going to lie. I, I filmed something recently and I, my son went on, said, took a picture of the monitor and gave it to me. I was like, you know, I was like, oh shit. Okay. Okay. Okay. Hey, all right. Yeah. You know, and, and, and then I went, like, I went the complete opposite during like, COVID, I cut off all of my hair and I let it go gray. I'm in gray. Since I was 15, I started going gray when I was 15. And so I was like, I'm just gonna, I'm going to be the new friends as being dorm. If that's what I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna like, never like, and, and my, my manager was like, that's awesome.
3 (1h 14m 58s):
But it had to be Frances McDormand before she could do that. Like you are no
2 (1h 15m 6s):
She's, there is already a for instance,
3 (1h 15m 8s):
If you still want to work in film and television, they haven't evolved to that yet. So you're going to need to kind of come back into to reality. So I still have to play the game. I still have to play the game. And, and I, I look at it and I'm like, oh, you know, and, and bless it. I just see all these, these really beautiful women shooting so much shit into their faces. And, and I just feel for them, you know, I feel cause I'm like, God, we're chasing it. He's seeing such a, this concept of please, please still find me viable, please.
3 (1h 15m 52s):
Still
2 (1h 15m 54s):
At the same time, as most of those people will tell you, they would not do anything to be 20 years old again in their minds. So you can't have it both ways you can't, you know, be so great. I mean, you can, I guess you can do whatever you want, but it's like, I wish the die is cast by the way for us and are like, it's never going to change in our lifetimes, but we, but we can at least see that it's going to change down the line. I mean, there was a time where I'm sure people thought this was absolutely never going to change, but I wish people could kind of encompass more of the idea like, oh no, no, I like who I am. As I'm older, inside and out, it's, it's easier said than done, but I want to ask you something about, so like one of the things that happened in the pandemic with theater, well, as like in a completely changed, I mean, just completely changed and in every conceivable way.
2 (1h 16m 45s):
And one thing that I hear a lot of actors and, and creative types doing now is thinking about their role post pandemic, w you know, in theater and film and television to, I guess, as carrying a lot more responsibility, it's my responsibility to see, you know, what the whole story is with inclusivity for this project and who got cast. And it's my responsibility to know the ways in which my privilege, you know, checked me in to this, to this opportunity. Do you think about that? Do you think about the ways in which you're maybe the burden of your responsibility has changed?
3 (1h 17m 27s):
Absolutely. No, it's, it's, I am part of a, of a theater company and we raise, you know, in Chicago, we've had, we have had unnecessary reckoning, a really necessary reckoning of, of who's in power, who holds, who holds the keys to the conversation who holds the keys to casting who, what kind of stories are being put out on the forefront. And I couldn't be more excited and thrilled by it.
3 (1h 18m 10s):
And I, and I know that means potentially less work for me. And that's okay. That's that's, that is okay. Like I inclusivity and diversity of the stories being told. Cause I what's interesting now is like, I have so much zero interest now and, and seeing, you know, the sort of cycles of plays that we've been fed for the last oh hundreds of years, you know, the stories of there are so many other stories to be told that I'm so hungry to hear and, and see, and it is a responsibility of all of us to step aside and create, create opportunities for, for people who, whose stories are, are, are, are rich and beautiful.
3 (1h 19m 4s):
And, and, and we learned from like, it's a gift, it's actually a gift. We are, we are gifted by buying, seeing the world through other, other people's eyes that don't look anything like us. It is
2 (1h 19m 21s):
Absolutely. Is it cha I mean, I guess the other thing is like, I answered your question, do you actually see it? No, you did. You did answer my question. There's another part to it, which is like, and is it actually changing? Is it actually happening? I mean, what I definitely hear is people are talking about it. I definitely hear that happening, social media and in person, but is that because I was part of a group that paid a lot of lip service to this, and then ultimately when it was time to make the change, they just didn't want to do it. So I had to leave that group. I don't really know. I mean, around here, the biggest regional theater, what made so many grand pronouncements, and then they opened with doubt the season, you know?
2 (1h 20m 5s):
So I'm like, but is it actually
3 (1h 20m 7s):
Changing? I mean, I think that remains to be seen. I mean, there's been a ton of change of leadership, but we still aren't completely open yet. And so people haven't been able to put on full seasons yet. So I I'm, there's been such a change over of hands in, in our larger institutions. You know, I can think of almost, I think I've stepped off. I think Goodman's about to have a, a regime change. We don't know yet what that's going to look like, but, you know, writers is looking for new people. You know, there there's been a change of hands.
3 (1h 20m 48s):
Like our job is to support, like give as much support so that these people can succeed. Like our job is to, you know, help go see plays, go see plays by new leadership, like whatever they're putting out like that, we ensure that they're successful because sadly, and this is what's gonna be interesting because the people that drive theater are, are the audience basis. And most of those people are people that are predominantly older and white and have disposable income. So the, what I'm hopeful is that there are opportunities. I, you know, we, we were talking about like new ways to expand platforms.
3 (1h 21m 31s):
Jen, you froze, froze. Yeah. She, that happens sometimes. Oh, okay. But you can still, I can still hear a part of the conversation. Yeah. I, you know, I think as if you're not on stage like that, I was just having a conversation this morning with, with my husband. I was like, I it's time for us to start going out and seeing theater and making sure that, that these new artistic directors are, are, are, are getting, you know, their audiences so that they can get, they can get their numbers up so that they can have revenues so that they can hire the people that they need to support them.
3 (1h 22m 14s):
I mean, it's, it's this big cyclical thing. And I, I see it changing, but I mean, , I don't think we have enough time out yet from the pandemic to, to really see the effects of it. I'm very hopeful and very supportive and yeah, it's making, it's making theater accessible. I know some people are talking about like, not only will we have live, but we'll also have opportunities to take place, which was so against, you know, when people feel very, very strongly about it. And I understand both sides, but you know, I, I have a friend who was like my family and, you know, central America.
3 (1h 22m 58s):
It was the first time that my extended family in central America was able to see my work, you know, because I got to film it and put it on zoom. And then they were able to buy a ticket, you know, and see it opened up these opportunities to bring in new audience members. And I was like, there's something to that. You know, there's something really special and important in that, you know, if we can, if we can open accessibility for people to be able to see these things. And if, you know, we can support our leaders in, in making sure that they have other people in the room.
2 (1h 23m 40s):
Yeah. And if it took 10, if it took, you know, a hundred hundreds of years of us being in the same place, it's going to take more than, you know, two, two years for us to be in a different place. And actually, I should mention the theater school at DePaul did finally name their new Dean and she is a woman of color. So that's exciting because when boss and I were in school, there, there was only one professor when one person of color and the whole school. And that, that was true up until like less than 10 years ago. Yeah.
3 (1h 24m 10s):
And I, and I really, I guess I say the importance of supporting them because gosh, those are really hard shoes to fill. You know, when you are, w would I want to be supportive of these people and allow them to make the mistakes that all artistic directors make and in learning this process, because they're going to be held to this standard that feels almost impossible, like all, all eyes and having to take over and sort of stitch up a lot of holes in institutions, because they're like, well, we did our job. We hired someone of color, you know, Hey, for us now you've inherited all of our internal issues and things like that.
3 (1h 24m 57s):
So I'm very, I'm very hopeful. I totally understand that it's a very daunting task. And, and so I just want to support them.
2 (1h 25m 7s):
I don't know if you followed that whole thing that happened with Dominique Morisseau and she pulled out her plate that did have an all black female creative team. It's just endless the way that these systems are entrenched inside of all of us, it's just encoded in our DNA, such that we can be in a situation like that. And it's still not working out because of whatever institutionalized racism.
3 (1h 25m 33s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 25m 35s):
We lost, we lost BAAs. Unfortunately I was expecting her to come back, but maybe she's at a co-working space. And maybe if there's a lot of people there that, you know, makes it difficult for her to, to get her internet, but it's okay. Cause we were just about to have to wrap up anyway. Thank you so much for your time.
3 (1h 25m 54s):
I, I appreciate it being one of your outliers. Like some of the didn't actually get to go to
2 (1h 25m 59s):
Theater school and it turns out you had all the same experiences as if you had maybe even better ones. Cause you didn't get saddled with the debt. Maybe if a conservatory and you, and you got to. And I think, you know, when people get to pick their own sort of educational experience, when it comes to acting and they can find what they like and leave the rest, that's, that's really valuable too, as opposed to, you know, here's this system.
3 (1h 26m 26s):
Yeah. I'm grateful because a lot of people, you know, have, have a lot of, of education in their back pocket, which I wish that I, I had, and I've tried to study some on my own. Cause sometimes, you know, my bag of tricks gets pretty tiresome, but I also feel like sometimes my ignorance has been good. Cause people are like, but that's not how the system like, oh, I don't even know that systems.
2 (1h 26m 50s):
Yeah. Yeah. So you're not burdened by the responsibility of holding it up.
3 (1h 26m 55s):
Yeah. I tried to take a Meisner class once and I near lost my mind. What are we doing? Wait, what are the rules? And yeah, I just couldn't understand it at all. None of it made sense. I finally took a viewpoints or I did. I worked on a show with somebody did viewpoints. I was like, oh, well this just is like, what I call
2 (1h 27m 16s):
This is relating to people in space. Yeah. But I, I do, I didn't actually really think about this until you just mentioned Meisner, but yeah, maybe we should think twice about the fact that all of the acting methods are, you know, developed, were developed by men. It may not be the thing that, I mean, the thing is like, it's the same thing. Doesn't work for everybody. Some people are just such Devo tase of minds or they think it's just the gospel. And some people aren't like that about the method. I think that's must be because that system worked for the way that they learn things and move the way that they express and experience things. That's not going to be true for every actor.
2 (1h 28m 1s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the cohost. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina Kalichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Interview: We talk to Dave Dastmalchian and John Hoogenakker about a special moment with F. Murray Abraham, finding friendship in a cutthroat environment, having substance abuse and authority issues, mind-f***ery, the cloistered nature of conservatories, using skills gained at TTS on set, taking an eclectic approach to acting, the tricky dance of teaching an art form, PR Casting, Does a Tiger Wear a Necktie, when William Burroughs discovered a copy of the Fledgling Press, a zine which Dave created.
FULL TRANSCRIPT: (unedited):
1 (10s):
And I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school
2 (12s):
Together. We survived it.
1 (14s):
He didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
2 (21s):
I survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
1 (31s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. What's up? How you doing? Please answer that question, even though I can't hear you. I like to imagine everyone checking in, even if it's just mentally, I for 1:00 AM surviving, but I did not want to come back from my vacation. I had a great vacation. I'll be talking all about it in the next episode, but I, I didn't want to come back and, you know, and it's because I went on vacation that we are not airing a brand new episode this week, but instead we were looking back at a previous episode, I'm going to say it's a hidden gem. Not that nobody listened to it, but that I don't know that it totally got the, quite the play that it should have.
1 (1m 19s):
It's a great conversation with two fantastic actors. The second reason is they both have so much going on right now, Dave in particular, you know, he just came off of dune and suicide squad. He's got a bunch of other things in production right now, including things that he's written. I don't know what is public knowledge or whatever. So I'll just leave it out. He's got a lot of stuff going on. And John is in every commercial I read, literally I feel he is in all of the commercials. So he's very busy with his life and his career. And also he was in dope sick, which if you haven't seen it, you really should.
1 (1m 60s):
It, it, it is both an excellent and well-made P piece of television as well as an important piece of television. Those Sackler people, man, fuck those guys. Disgusting. Anyway, they were delightful. We could have talked for two hours. Maybe one day we'll get a chance to do a part two, but I just thought it would be nice to take a look back. I am not including the first part of the episode, the, our usual intro. And let me run this by you because it's pretty old at this point. But if you want to listen to that, the original episode is still up as this.
1 (2m 43s):
Anyway, please enjoy our conversation with David, a small shin and John who can anchor.
3 (2m 49s):
You got to call her up again and ask her to do
1 (2m 53s):
All right. I'm going to make a note of that right now. Anyway. Congratulations, John and Dave, you survived theater school. No, not barely. You guys. I think you both had excellent theater school careers, but I'd like to hear it from you. Yeah.
4 (3m 16s):
I'm so glad that you're our first duo that we've had on today. The fancy friends. And I wanted to know about your experience like together as well as apart, but like my first question for you is did you love each other right away?
5 (3m 32s):
I don't, I don't know John did you?
3 (3m 36s):
Well,
5 (3m 39s):
I've known Gina the longest and by the way, so good to see you. It's only been 20 years like this. I mean, we've, we've messaged and emailed a lot, but Jesus, this is amazing. Oh my God. So I was roommates with Gina and we were very close and then I left school for a year. And so the school moves forward. Jen, you and Gina were in the same grade. You guys all moved forward. And when I came back, it was a whole new group of people to get to know. And John was one of the first people that I knew when I got back. So I felt very out of place and it was hard to come into cause it's such a competitive environment and it's such a intense environment and I was both competitive and intense.
5 (4m 26s):
So to jump into the fire with a whole new group of people, to kind of, it's hard because you're posturing, you're sizing up, but at the same time, you're looking for connection. You're looking for support and it's, it's such a conflict. And John, I'm not going to get emotional today. I swear to God, but it was like one of the first people that extended such a kind generous since he's got that, that, that inimitable, I'm a cuddler sincerity, which is what makes him such a brilliant actor. But he had that like, look me in the eyes in class and like, Hey, he has a little bit of a draw.
5 (5m 6s):
Like I'm really excited. You're here. And I want to get to know you and I hope we get to work together. And then we went and hung out at his apartment soon after that and maybe smoke something. This is recorded, sorry, John. And then we watched star wars stuff together and that was our bond. So that's my version of this story.
3 (5m 26s):
No, God, we, we had a lot of fun. I have old pictures of you and I, and I Aisha and a snuggling ghanaba you snuggling and which I'm going to send you guys, but yeah, we, jeez. I just remember, I remember Dave's it bullions from day one, his like drive in his, in his positive energy. And I think that is the thing that ha that has, that has been such a, such a driving in Dave's career is that he just never stops. It comes down to energy and positivity and he's constantly pumping that into the world.
3 (6m 8s):
And I think Dave has known for many, many years that it, you know, that that kind of stuff comes back to you. And I think I was drawn to that in Dave. Yeah. From the giddy-up
1 (6m 20s):
You also recognize somehow that he needed you to take on that, stare you in the eye and tell him you want to get to know him vibe. Did you know that he felt overwhelmed coming back?
3 (6m 32s):
I D I think from my perspective, the thing that drew Dave and I to one another was a sense that, you know, in the theater school at the time that we were all there was such a, there was, so it was a lot of mind fuckery going on. And there was a lot of, I think a lot of us in the acting track, especially I know this was the case throughout the school wanted positive reinforcement from teachers. And sometimes I think my perspective was that people were manufacturing emotions and things to achieve that positive reinforcement. And Dave just seemed to be Dave to me, which I really, really enjoyed and appreciated.
3 (7m 18s):
And yeah. And so I think that was, that was, it was, it was Dave's his, his sort of genuine vibe that I was
4 (7m 30s):
Both of you when I've run into you. I mean, you know, I don't, I live in California now, but I've seen you like at PR and Dave ag ran into you, one set of Starbucks in Chicago, the genuineness is unbelievable. So I, I think you're both fancy and I'm sort of sorry, star struck. I, but when I, but there is this sort of, both of you have this sort of face to face, like, look you in the eye, I'm going to have an actual conversation with you. And I think that makes you not only great, great actors, but what's more important to me is great human beings. And I, I don't know. I'm just so glad that you guys found each other and that your friends, like, you know, that's how I feel
5 (8m 15s):
The work and outside of our mutual passionate love for the theater, acting, film, storytelling, character creation, cinema history, literature, like John. And I did kick it off immediately with a lot of, of, you know, kindred kind of passions for things which we all shared because we all were in that, that, that, that vortex. And obviously we were drawn there because we had a passion for this stuff. But, you know, I've been through the ringer in my life outside of my acting career as well. And, and, and John was always one of the first people to show up and be there for me when I needed someone as well, which was you, you're not taught that in the, again, this is about surviving the theater school.
5 (9m 2s):
You're taught that you're in the ensemble family mode during rehearsal, and it felt like kind of during a production, but then it was right back to, you know, this really intensely bizarre, like John there's no better, I guess, adverb than mind fuckery of, and, and it was, it was, I'm very grateful and in many great, true friendships came out of that time because when you go through something that intense and that trying, but we, we, we, I would love to tell a quick story if I can, because we need, we're kind of, we, weren't kind of, we were absolutely fuck-ups.
5 (9m 43s):
We were in trouble a lot because it's no mystery that I had a pretty intense substance abuse problem in college. And John had a pretty serious attitude problem in college. And neither of us dealt well with authority, although we loved being directed, which has always been a paradox with us. Like we love great directors. They get in and like help guide us in shape things. But at the same time, we are the first people to, you know, get our backs up sometimes. And I, and I remember John and I were so frustrated that some of the people like he, he, there was this, this feeling of like posturing or presentation that always felt in authentic to us. And we wanted, you know, were going to Chicago. We want to rub real dirt on our faces and smashed glass.
5 (10m 25s):
And we're going to get in there. And, and we were doing a scene together from Glen Gary, Glen Ross for second year scene study work with Joe . And it was so intense. It was the Moss era now seen at the Chinese restaurant. John is just needling into me to like, you're going to, you're going to get in on this heist, or I'm gonna ruin your life. And we loved, like, we got into that so much. It was all space work. And we're in generally John and I were in, I was either in rave clothes or John was in some tide Bob Marley thing. And, and so we had this big, special guests coming to the theater school who was going to do a scene study workshop.
5 (11m 6s):
And it was F Murray Abraham. And I'll never forget that we're all so excited. Big fans, we go, they did it at a separate location on campus. And
3 (11m 19s):
It was where it was dramatic,
5 (11m 21s):
I think, where nobody cheated. And he, he goes, he blew through the fees that he was working on so quickly. And he was getting frustrated, like stop with the bullshit, stop with the presentation, like let's work these.
3 (11m 38s):
And he was also, he was also like not giving, like he would give a really incisive note and then would be like, all right, now, fuck off and do better in life.
5 (11m 47s):
He didn't want over preparation. He wanted this to be like a malleable Play-Doh kind of moment where we could. So we were not part of that event, John and I were just sitting in the back row, probably like, just like, whoa, this is so cool, dude. Like, that's a very gray, I'm doing seeds. And he looked to the crowd. He's like, is that all you got? Cause they had prepared. I don't remember four or five scenes for him to work on.
3 (12m 10s):
Yeah. It was like, it looks like, well, it was like two from each classroom. And then we had like a break and the teachers were kind of looking around at each other. Like, that's all I had. And Dave, Dave, you went to,
5 (12m 23s):
Yes. Loic turn to me and John and slow. It goes, you guys, can we do it, John? Can we do it? I was like, yeah, let's do it. We had no prop prepper, everyone. Else's in costumes that they've got their props that John and I hopped up with. We, we may do right. We got a bottle that we brought from someone else's seen some cups and we jumped up there and we did this. We did the scene where F Murray had recently done the piece where he was familiar enough with it, that he could kind of jump in and do with this. But I was so proud that day, even though I knew what F ups we were. And even though I knew that I was, I knew that the work we were putting into and the discipline and the, and the, and the love we were putting into building these characters together and how much we loved playing off one another was, I knew in that moment, this is something I'm going to do with this guy for the rest of my life.
5 (13m 16s):
And sure enough, we've gone on to do films, two films together, outside of school. We continue to collaborate. I knew in that moment though, I was like, this guy I'm holding onto him for the rest of my acting life.
3 (13m 28s):
I wouldn't, I want to jump in because that was such a, that was, first of all, it was, it was an amazing experience that we were like, we were like greyhounds, just ready to run. And, and we were also, we didn't realize that. So I'm going to, we talk about surviving the theater school. I don't know where to start, but more importantly, I don't know where I should stop. So you guys got to shut me up. So, so I ran, I got that bottle from my roommate who drank Jamieson, like all the time. So I ran across because we were in Seton hall, not Seton hall, but a sanction. And I got the bottle and I came back and Dave and I were getting ready and we do the, we do the scene. And I knew, we knew that F Murray was going to just like, give us a note and dismiss us.
3 (14m 13s):
So he gave us this note. And the w the one thing was I had been breaking up this paragraph that I was given to Dave, you know, kind of feeling my way through it. And she kind of smacked him. And he was like, you know, this David Mamet gives you all of the direction you need with the punctuation, like Shakespeare. And you need to just drive through without taking a break, because that's going to give you more pay off at the end of the, at the end of the scene. And Dave and I looked at each other and we just started doing the scene before he could dismiss us. So we jumped right into it. And he had gone through all the people in our class that had been put forward. He had gone through upperclassmen, and that was the first group, Dave and I were the first two that had the audacity.
3 (14m 54s):
Did you jump, take the note and jump back in? And we'll when we finished, he was like, that is preparation and preparation
5 (15m 12s):
Now, mother fuckers.
1 (15m 13s):
Yeah. I love that. I love that because what you're telling me in that is you each made a decision where our company is called undeniable. So you made it, you made a decision to be undeniable. You made a decision to not let him, I'm sure everybody would. I, I'm not sure anybody else in that situation would have been willing to get up and go on and not let him deny you, not let him interrupt you. And you were like 18, 19 years old, which is like even more. So you, you both mentioned mind fuckery, which is a very evergreen theme on our podcast. And I would love to hear a little bit more about, as you look back at this time in your life now, and you imagine, cause some of our professors were probably the age then that we are now, what do you make of some of this?
1 (16m 9s):
How have you reconciled some of what you now consider to be mind? Fuck. Great. Did it feel like a mind fuckery then, or does it just look that way in the rear view
4 (16m 19s):
A caveat, a quick caveat in that I teach at the theater school. So I, and, and I, I'm trying to change the culture there a little bit. And so I just always am really hyper aware that like, we want to say whatever you want. That's what I want to say.
5 (16m 39s):
Whatever The Vince rather it's called in the legal team, man, there, You're talking to John and Jane, don't worry.
4 (16m 57s):
Go for it. What's it
5 (16m 58s):
All about you go first because I know.
3 (17m 1s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have no idea what I'm going to say. We're on a journey of discovery here. No, first of all, to your point, Jen, like I know John and I, I admire him greatly. I feel like there's gotta be five of him in the planet to achieve all this stuff that he's achieved. And the theater school of today bears little, if any, resemblance to the theater school that Dave and I and you guys attended. And that said, I don't feel like the mind fuckery that I felt I was, that I received was the result of some jerk ass cadre of teachers sitting around in a circle and being like, who can we book?
3 (17m 43s):
Who can we shit on today? I don't think that's how it was. I think the difference was there was a, a strong, a greater focus on academia. At that point, it was like just giving your life to an institution and, and a philosophy and an approach to doing theater that was at that time intensely cloistered didn't allow us to kind of step outside of the school. And we all to a certain extent kind of knew what we were signing up for. When we came on board, I had been in ROTC when I was in high school. I had competed in debate. So I kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff at the beginning. And I just kind of felt like when I was at theater school, as Dave said, I had a real attitude problem because I was like, I had to take on a lot of debt to go to that school.
3 (18m 30s):
My family came together and did everything they could to help me, but I, I graduated with a lot of debt and I kind of felt like, you know what? This is, I'm paying you, but like, we get to have a conversation about this. I know you're the, I know you're the pro I know you've been doing this your entire adult life, but I have questions. And I feel like I'm due an answer and a considered answer. And you don't get to just shut me down because I asked a question and I'm 19 and you're 54. Cause I'm here taking on a lot of personal debt that I'm going to carry into my adult life. And you owe me answers. Th that's just, let's just call that an opening, Sally and Dave, you can share it.
5 (19m 12s):
I felt like, you know, it was the perfect place for me to train. The culture was a utterly complicated complex filled with nuance, lots of gray area. It came from a tradition steeped in some really important and impressive theater movements that were more militaristic and disciplinary and really intense. I'll always be grateful for the tools that I picked up in the theater school to this day, save me on an almost daily basis on sets because the awareness it gave me of my body and my voice and, you know, the depth of my psychology to be able to solve problems on the fly and repeat, you know, emotional recreations was really important.
5 (19m 57s):
I will say that there were conflicting philosophies and approaches, which is, I think very healthy. One of the things I loved was that nobody said this is the theater school way. It was like, here's the , here's the belly. Can we, here's the David app, Callaway, here's the Rick Murphy way. You go to these classes, you see what works for you. You see where you're doing the best work, and then you have to grow up quickly and you have to be prepared for this dog, eat dog world of the arts that you're going to be thrown into. Once you graduate here, there is no, you know, kind of kind or gentle or entirely psychologically easy way to prepare somebody for the, the, the, the, the meat grinder that is the show business.
5 (20m 37s):
And so for all those reasons, I was incredibly grateful. I think there were, there was a lack of oversight when it came to mental with some of the faculty, and I'll always hold them responsible for the fact that they allowed sexual relationships between professors and students. I think it's entirely inappropriate for people in that kind of power in there. It's
3 (21m 3s):
Unbelievable when you look back on it.
5 (21m 6s):
When I think back on the fact that I knew there were teachers that we were meant to listen to and respect and regard and trust with our deepest parts of ourselves who were seduced, tearing sex with students that breaks my heart. And, and I, I would tell them that to their faces today, if I could see them, but I, I hope they'll watch. And I also think that, that there was some abusive behavior that I'll never understand other than they were human beings, who, you know, who were just people that were, that, that, that did, that did some things that may, I like to, I like to believe that they thought they might've been helping push us, or, but some of the things that were either said or done, I go, man, that was, I can remember sitting with Gina one time.
5 (21m 58s):
And I mean, I I'm a pretty emotionally fragile guy, but I was like on the verge of tears of, of something that had happened with one of the professors that we both really admired, but also we both really kind of feared and, and it was just like why, but, but in all, I'm grateful, cause I'm not one of those people I'll run into people from the theater school who are just carrying so much damage from that time. And I'm so grateful that when I look back on my time at the theater school, in all honesty, it's with a lot of positive, it is w I really go, wow, that was an amazing experience. Yes. I have anger, frustration pains about certain things that happened that I can't believe happened, but I do feel, I feel like it really prepared me for the world in which I'm working on.
3 (22m 47s):
I totally agree. And I, I, you know, I look back on that time and I kind of feel like what, you know, when I look at things that had that I feel like have gone pear shaped and that I was a part of, I always try and think about what, what could I have done better? And for me, I look back on that period. And I think that I was not emotionally mature enough or perhaps mature enough in general, to take on board everything that I could have learned as an actor. And I'm talking about like technique wise in that program, because I was so emotionally just kind of bombarded with.
3 (23m 27s):
So, so much of it is, is subjective in the, in the beginning. And we're going into a career where you may go up against four other people in your type, or maybe not in your type who were phenomenal actors, and you may get that job, or you may not. And there could be any number of reasons why you did or you didn't and kind of trying to prepare a child. And let's be honest, if you're not in the master's track, you're still a child for the realities and the emotional rigors of, of what could end up being a career and a full life doing that stuff would be the greatest act of compassion that an educational center could impart to a child.
3 (24m 14s):
And I feel like the theater school was like that wasn't even a thing. And, you know, I mean, not understanding why, you know, everybody probably makes the case of like, ah, gee whiz. I was so talented in my hometown. And then I went to the theater school and I was like, oh my God, everybody's talented. What am I going to do? But you still in class with folks, you know, all these hours a day, all these days a week, and some people are become darlings. Some people do not. Some people back then were kept on after the first year, after the second year.
3 (24m 55s):
And some people were not, and there were, there were there, there were like major head scratchers about that, like to go back and to have completed two years and to be respected in the eyes of your peers and presumably in the eyes of your teachers. And then to get that, that letter that, you know, maybe this isn't for you to be able to, to make that determination in another person's life. And in that way is just, it's, it's astounding. That that was what we signed up for. And I'll tell you that. I remember I'll never forget. That was not really made clear prior to coming to the theater school, like actually sitting there on the first day, I remember sitting cross-legged on the floor and listening to bridges, kind of talking, this is the greatest city in the mind of God and his being like, you know, some of you will graduate.
3 (25m 46s):
Most of you will not. I remember like, wow, that's pretty intense. Like I was not so clear on the whole half of you are going to get cut the first year. And then the remaining are going to get cut. The second year. That to me was like deeply ingenuous disingenuous because what was really happening. And again, the school is a completely different school. Now they've dealt with this stuff. What was happening was they were bringing in free labor that was actually paying them shitloads of money to be free labor, and then kicking them to the curb. They, I think had a pretty good idea at audition, which of these four kids were actually going to make it to graduation.
3 (26m 35s):
And I think we had some idea of that, but we were literally pitted against one another. I'll give you one example and then I'll shut up and let Dave go again. We did an intro in second year, lot called laughing wild. And it was by Christopher Durang and it's a two-person so two hander, it's a man and it's a woman. And what they did was they cast four males and something like nine females and the director never set the lines. So every night it was literally these kids who still had not been invited back for their third year and could still be cut in a fucking verbal knife fight every night, fucking crazy.
3 (27m 23s):
And you know, it was the director. Like I still had really long hair at that point. Pier said, Jason Pierce had really long hair. Bryan Sharp had really long hair. And I think it was hunter Andre. And it was kind of like the Elko didn't really like our long hair. So it was like, you guys all have to look the same. That's what I'm going for. So we all got our hair cut and then we commenced to like fighting over these lines. And what we ultimately did was probably pretty cool to look at, but it was also a hot mess, you know, because
4 (27m 59s):
Totally. Yeah. I mean, I, I think it thinks that, so I guess the bigger question here for me, and I don't know what you guys think, but th 17, should we be doing this? I, I really, I mean, I know for me, I'm, I'm grateful as hell I went there. I was, I was cut and then asked back, it was a weird thing. I got a letter and then another letter. And then, so as a 17 year old or sick, I was 16. Like, this is so much mind fuckery inherent in the system. And when we went there, I mean, we're all glad we went, but like man kids, I don't know that we should be, if I would, if I had a kid, I don't know that I want my kid to be engaged in a verbal life, right.
4 (28m 44s):
At 17 with hunter, Andre. I I'm just, I don't know, but whatever.
5 (28m 50s):
I mean, I wouldn't put my kids though on the track right now to be actors because of that. But the reality, the harsh reality is that the business of theater and the business of film and television needs 20, 21, 22 year old actors. So to throw them into the best training you can at 18, 19, 20, 21, it sucks. But it's also like it's, it's, it's an exceptional calling to choose the path of the artist. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's more, you know, not to be, you know, whatever ridiculous about it, but it, it, it, it, it is like it's, it's, so it's such an unfair, the world is so unfair.
5 (29m 32s):
As we know, Jesus Christ turn on the news right now, the world is an unfair place, but the arts are so unfair. And it's like, if someone's going to it's, it's such a complicated question because I do think like, right at like 18, maybe that's the earliest. If my kid said, dad, I want to do what you do. I'd say you do as much community theater in high school theater and drama, as you can speech debate, blah, blah, blah. I'm not taking them to a damn Hollywood audition until they're 18. And, and if they want to pursue it, I would want them to go study and train somewhere. Like what the theater school is now, you know, at 18.
5 (30m 12s):
But yeah. And it's really complicated. It is. Yeah.
3 (30m 18s):
I will say that. I was, I was just going to throw this in. When, when I graduated, I got a job working at Chicago Shakespeare, which was started like a couple months after graduation. And I got on stage with Kevin Goodall, Lisa DOB, the Dodson, Greg Minkler, Brad, Armacost all these amazing classic classic Chicago actors, stalwart Chicago actors. And it was the first, it was the first show in the, in their new space. So they had all these great people in the cast. So I got so lucky to be, you know, a messenger in that play, but that was when my personal education in the theater like really started.
3 (31m 9s):
And that was when I saw like these Titans kind of dealing with the humdrum rejection of, yeah. I went for another one at PR I didn't get it, but it went to blah-blah-blah and he's a great dude, which is a thing I've always loved about Chicago. It's like, you know, you get to a certain age, it's always the same folks in the room and you kind of are cheering for everybody. You sit in that waiting room, especially PR and it's, it's always a reunion of friends, but I, I, so when I talk to people, parents of child, actors on sets who want to know what I would advise them to do, if these were my kids like Dave, I mean, I kind of, I'm kinda like, you know, if they are still interested in this, when they're 18, I would take all the money that you've saved for college.
3 (31m 59s):
If you've saved any and just fund their apartment in Los Angeles or Chicago or New York, like start them off when they're that early, because they're four years ahead of the rest of the pack when they graduate. And they will have spent that four years learning at the feet of actual working professionals. Yeah.
1 (32m 18s):
Well, the truth is when somebody wants to be this from the time they're five years old, which probably all of us did, there's no stopping them. I mean, we've heard stories of parents saying, please don't call, study theater, please do something else. And they're going to do what they're going to do, but so let's bring it back to when you guys decided you wanted to go to a, for college. Was that something you knew all along? Did you figure it out later? How did,
5 (32m 46s):
For me it was, it was, it was the, it was fate. It was, you know, it was truly fate. I mean, it was a, it was like a miracle of God. And, and to me, God works through teachers. It was the power of teachers. I, my parents were a mess throughout my, you know, junior high and high school years where I was very much on my own in a lot of regards. And I was a high functioning academically, you know, in the, in the, in the, in a good tier. But I was really excelling in both speech and football. Those were kind of my two strengths coming through high school.
5 (33m 26s):
And I didn't see the path towards the academic dreams that I had for college in, in speech or acting or drama for God's sake, but I did through football. So my dream was going into my senior year of high school. I was going to be as yoked as possible, play the best game I could play, get us to state, get a scholarship to go to a better school than I could go to that I knew was at my hands with the amount of money that my mom and I had. And with that scholarship, I was going to try and become a high school football coach who, who ran the drama club. That was my dream for myself, two teachers, my speech coach and our drama teacher said to sat down with me separately and said, you have something you, we will help you if you're, if you're afraid of, of applying to like arts programs or theater, or following a track and drama and hearing that was mind blowing.
5 (34m 25s):
And they did, they helped me do the research. I looked at SMU, NYU and DePaul. I did a regional audition and then ultimately drove up to Chicago. And my audition was in front of John Jenkins and John Watts. I'll never forget. I was there in cutoff, Jean shorts, a tie dye, Janis Joplin t-shirt and my football socks. And there was a bunch of kids in leotards and jazz shoes who knew what they meant when they were saying things. I did it, my, my monologue was completely wrong. They said, don't do a dialect that I did a scene from Equis. And then they, we said, don't do a dialect. And I luckily remembered does a tiger wear a neck tie?
5 (35m 5s):
And I just threw that out there. And it was fate. It was God, it was whatever you choose to believe. But then I got a letter very soon after that, that, and I was miserable thinking about playing four years of college football. That's important to note, I did not want to do that, but I knew it was a means to an end. My brother was a collegiate athlete, and I knew the demands of that. And that, that was going to be my life for four years. But for me to get the education I wanted, it was worth it. And I got this letter that not only had I been invited to participate in the theater school program, but I had also been this, this, this huge scholarship called the Stanley and good
3 (35m 44s):
For you, Dave, we're all happy for you.
5 (35m 49s):
That's my story. That's my story. I'm done as John, just finish the story about the buckets. Hey, I left school with a massive amount of debt as well, because my scholarship did not cover living expenses. That's why I had to leave theater school for a year to go
3 (36m 8s):
Dave. Yeah. Dave wanted to live in a four bedroom, three bathroom.
5 (36m 13s):
what was her landlord's name? What was this?
3 (36m 25s):
The place? It was like right around the corner from healing earth resources by like, yeah, that's the one where like a couple like, or an adjacent building had the, the deck collapsed. Right.
5 (36m 36s):
Very close there. Yeah. Remember this space, time tanks, John, the floating. Can we go do that together? Once the tanks, the, that the deprivation, the sensory. Oh yeah. Anyway, right there.
3 (36m 51s):
One of the oldest ones in the city is right there. Yeah. Thanks for,
5 (36m 54s):
Thanks for shitting.
3 (36m 57s):
So happy. That'd be for you for getting a scholarship to DePaul. That's great. Good for you. I didn't get a scholarship. I, no, we no. So I totally very similar story, except I was not going to be an athlete ever. I was in, I was in speech and debate in high school. I had not done theater since I was a child, like a younger child, because I got braces. And my dad who was a local actor in Charlotte was like, there's no, there's no market for a kid with braces. So then I was, I think at about 10th grade, I started competing in humorous interpretation, which Dave?
5 (37m 44s):
Yeah.
3 (37m 46s):
And, and I did really well in that. And so then when I got to senior year, the drama teacher and I had never taken drama at the theater at the high school, you know, she would, she would accompany the speech team on debate trips. She reached out and she was like, Hey, you know, if you want to take this class, you can take the senior level drama class. And she, and my speech coach Barbara Miller said, you know, you should, you should check out some theater schools to see where you can study. And we, I looked into like a Julliard. I was really interested in because I knew that Robin Williams had gone there, but I think it was more expensive to audition there.
3 (38m 29s):
And I somehow missed the whole boat on, you know, I think a lot of people, I know Kelly, my wife auditioned at, in Chicago, but for a bunch of schools all at once. And I, I came in like late January, early February and we stayed, it was going to be a big deal for my family. So we stayed at the Palmer house and I went and I, again like, like Dave, I was surrounded by all these kids that just seemed so focused. And so like tuned into this world that all of a sudden seemed very foreign to me and completely unattainable.
3 (39m 11s):
And like, I was just completely a fish out of water. And, and I did, my, my drama teacher had given me a monologue that was, you know, going to be probably like, does a tire tiger wear a neck tie or something, you know, appropriate for the locate for the venue. And I didn't, you know, I, we had done a musical called runaways and there was a monologue and runaways that I thought, well, it just really spoke to me. It was about a, a young kid whose mother had passed away. And he was kind of like just mourning her. And I remembered my drama teacher being like, well, it's your life? Good luck.
3 (39m 51s):
And, and I came, came to the school and we did the whole, like, they let us through warmups, which was bizarre. That was Patrice, I think. And then I did my monologue for like Betsy, I believe. And maybe John and possibly bill brown. And, and I left completely dejected. And I told my dad, I was like, well, that's not going to happen. You know, having,
4 (40m 16s):
I have to interrupt and say that everyone we talk to, I am not kidding you. Every single human I've talked to says, I left that place after my audition feeling like, well, I don't know. I think I bombed, but no one I've talked to has been like, I nailed that shit.
3 (40m 36s):
Well, that's, you know, I that's so indicative of the way, like the vibe at the time, the teachers weren't like, they weren't there to coddle you and Bailey good job. You've really nailed it. I think you're going to go. Places said no DePaul teacher ever. No, no, no. They certainly, certainly they do now. But, but yeah, so we left and I've forgotten my watch. Cause you know, you had to like all of a sudden, like I don't, I think I just barely remembered to bring sweat pants or something like that. And so I forgot my watch. So my dad was like, I'm sure you did find bud. And so like the next day or whatever, he calls Melissa Meltzer and he's like, Hey Melissa, I'm wondering, did you guys find a watch?
3 (41m 22s):
Cause John, he lost a watch. You didn't, you didn't find a watch. Huh? Okay. All right. Well thank you. And then she was like, so how does John feel like he did? And my dad was like, oh, well he bombed it. He didn't feel very well. I just wanted to make sure we got that watch before we Charlie. And, and she was like, yeah, he's one of you. We're sending out a couple, a couple letters of admission right now or whatever acceptance right now. And he's one of them and I just could not believe it. And yeah, it was, it was really, really great.
3 (42m 2s):
But again, I had no idea what I was signing up for. Cause if it wasn't DePaul, it was going to be Appalachian state or community college in Charlotte. Cause I mean, I had, I had, I was in AP classes and I had done well on my SATs, but I was not a focused student otherwise. And didn't have the scores to get into state or Carolina or any of the vaunted universities in my home state.
1 (42m 27s):
So according to my research, you guys did at least two shows together. Yeah, yeah. Right. Was it the blues and Peter pan?
3 (42m 39s):
Peter pan?
5 (42m 41s):
We did the, we did the Glen Gary Glen Ross scene together. And then our senior year when we were all very frustrated with the, with the, with the, with the plays that had been mostly, there was some really cool plays that were selected for our fourth year, but we were, we were frustrated collectively John, his wife, Kelly, our friend, Dennis Zack, a whole group of us got together. And we put on our own production of white check. We worked together doing that outside of school and performed at a coffee shop nearby because we were determined to do challenging work that was going to actually give us a chance to do something.
5 (43m 26s):
So yeah, but while we were those first four years and then in the year, since we've done three things together, probably your four
1 (43m 34s):
Teacher was amazing.
5 (43m 36s):
Teacher was a good, thank you. Thank you. I was so excited when we got John. It's just putting him into anything is going to elevate it. As you guys know you watch any TV show, any movie, any play, you name it. John comes into something he's going to elevate it. But I knew that that relationship I needed that character that I played in teacher had nobody else to ground him. He had nobody else to clean too. He had nobody else to like tu tu tu, tu, tu tu, you know, make me feel any sense of, of my, the characters, much needed humanity for the audience to get on board with him in those moments that John and I got and John did a lot of stuff that magically woke up.
5 (44m 25s):
It was a great script, but man, John took it to the, a much, a greater level with just which the magic he does. He did the same thing in animals. When I said, we've got to please be in my movie, please. I knew what he would do and sure as shit he did it, he walked in and everybody was just like, I mean, it's one of the best scenes of a movie that I'm very proud of. It's a 90 minute film filled with scenes that I love, but that is the scene. I've probably gone back to more than any. And I go, God, really proud of the writing I did there, but what he did with little nuanced moments, I've, I've learned a lot watching my friend on stage and on, on, on set and I will continue to, I also watch everything he does obviously because he is my friend, but also because he gets to do a lot of really cool stuff.
5 (45m 11s):
And, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot from, from you, John,
3 (45m 16s):
I feel the same way about you, man. You, I gotta say Dave has always been an inspiration to me because of, as I mentioned at the beginning of our talk because of the positivity that he puts out into the world. And Dave, you know, as he mentioned earlier, went through the ringer with substance abuse. And I think it's less than 7% of people who, who have been where you were ever come back. And so to be one of those people who not just survived, but who thrived in an already incredibly challenging industry is just absolutely astounding.
3 (45m 59s):
And to, and to continually go back to the well and create, be a force of creativity and you know, your own engine and guiding your own ship while being, you know, a partner and a father is I, I feel so lucky that I've gotten to lean on you for inspiration and to call you for advice
5 (46m 27s):
Or, you know, it's wonderful. Like it's, I'm so grateful and that's another thing I'm so always thank God for the theater school because of John Hogan, Akron, and so many people that have been instrumental in my life. And I think it's important to note too, as far as the friendships that were forged in that time you asked earlier too, there was some, obviously there were some teachers that taught me some wonderful techniques and skills, but also really hurt my heart in some certain ways. But that was it wouldn't be fair to, to neglect and not point out that like I'll never forget it. If there was one person who actually did take time to try, I felt like in her way to teach us ways of coping was Phyllis for me, she talked to me a lot about meditation.
5 (47m 13s):
She introduced me to some books that were really instrumental to my journey and like really wacky, like psychedelic stuff that I was really invested in thinking about at the time and really cool ways of trying to process depression. I didn't, I wasn't diagnosed at that time and I wasn't getting the proper help that I needed for my depression, but that was really, I'm so grateful as well as, you know, the encouragement that someone like her showed. She was a needed angel at the time for me in a dark place and bridges. I mean, I know he wasn't, you know, faculty, he was staff, but that guy recognized and saw some stuff that no one else was willing to address in my self-destruction.
5 (48m 2s):
And he showed up for me way outside and above and beyond the, the, the roll call of whatever his payroll was or required of him and
3 (48m 12s):
His door was always open. And as a side note, he attended your wedding. I believe he attended mine down in Alabama and Dave's was in California.
5 (48m 22s):
Yeah, he's he, he was he for all of his shit giving and making fun of, and, and sideways remarks. There was underneath that, this deep concern and love for the students that when I needed it, most was there for me in his is a dear and close personal friend to this day. Oh, I'm all over the place. Now guys, my brain is spinning the coffees. It did. I'm getting emotional. But I'm thinking too about like you talked about when we first did plays together and I'm just having all these flashbacks of me and John, like I smoked cigarettes. John did, did not, but we would go out back sometimes when we were at like on the fire escape at the, at the, at the victory gardens where we were doing, I got to blues and we'd we talk about this stuff.
5 (49m 13s):
It's like, I just doing the shows was actually you're right. That was probably the best education we ever got was just doing the,
3 (49m 20s):
And you can hear it in Dave now, like some of the exuberance, but he was this guy when we would go back and we would be out back and you know, he'd be smoking and be talking about Johnny. I love you, brother. I'll tell you what, man, we're going to fucking do this shit. And one day we're gonna be so fucking big. It's all gonna happen, bro. It's all gonna happen. You just can't wait, man. I love you so much. It's gonna be so great. And I would just be like, I just want to survive When he is made, like the dude has made it happen.
4 (49m 53s):
Oh wait, I have a question I have, oh, go, you want to go beans? No, you can go ahead. Okay. I have a question about that because I'm always fascinated by two things. The sh the show quote, showcase experience in Los Angeles for people. I don't know why. I just love that because the stories are, so mine was my saying, I had a run-in with John C. Riley that did not go well.
3 (50m 21s):
I know a few, one negative interaction with John C. Riley
4 (50m 24s):
And I had it. I had it. And then also resilience. Those are the two things I want to cover before we, before we get out. But my, my question is about that showcase. What the hell was your experience? Like?
5 (50m 38s):
I'll go, mine's quick and easy. I was so strung out by that point. You guys, I was literally scrambling to find methadone clinics in Los Angeles and New York where I could go get doses. So I wouldn't get sick from withdrawals. That, that was the, my top concern. I did a scene with Whitney Snead at the time who was, we were doing this, this, this, this, this really fun horror scene together that I thought would be a good showcase for LA, but I got no interest, no check marks from anybody. And then, and then luckily somebody invited me. I got to go over and, and go to universal studios for the day. And I got to go to Dreamworks, which was cool for a minute, but it was completely unrelated to my audition.
5 (51m 22s):
It was because somebody invited me to go over there. And that was, that was my big, that was my big, that was my big, it was, it was, it was terrible. And I was very close with John at the time, but we, nobody knew. So you guys got to understand, I didn't tell it wasn't like John or my friends. They knew something was wrong with me, but it wasn't like, Hey guys, I got to go score. I was very good at hiding my suffering. And which is what made it was so devastating. I know for John and Kelly and my friends who immediately came, you know, like when I wound up in Kansas, after I bottomed out in Chicago and they would come see me, he was just like, would say things like, I'm sorry. I didn't know. And I'm like, how could you, I'm that good of an actor?
1 (52m 5s):
Yeah. I lived with them and I didn't know that.
5 (52m 12s):
And that was my, that was my showcase experience.
4 (52m 16s):
Yours and mine. Similar.
1 (52m 19s):
What about yours, Jen? Well,
3 (52m 21s):
Yeah, it was Dennis, Zach and I were seeing partners and we, no, no, no, no. I can't remember. You
1 (52m 29s):
Guys did scenes. We just did monologue monologues,
3 (52m 32s):
Dennis, Zach. And I went later for a separate, for a separate event when we were like young actor. But, but yeah, when, when I got out there, I, you know, I did the thing. I didn't get any, like, there was no love for me. And it was, you know, it was, I mean, it was nerve wracking to do the thing. Cause you just, you're telling yourself at that point, it's like, all right, well, if it doesn't happen here, I'll just pack the pumping gas or, you know, whatever. And Kelly and I had started kind of talking to each other. I had like, literally had seen her outside of the theater school one morning while we were all gearing up for, for showcase and was just admiring her and demographics saw me admiring her.
3 (53m 22s):
And then he got, he did this thing that only Dennis Zach, where he's like, dude, and then Shayna, like around the same time was like, you know, I really liked John and I want him in my life, but I don't want to date him. One of you girls, did she be you Kelly? Cause I think, you know, Ogden was maybe with Lisa at this point, but so somebody by our two close friends had kind of, you know, pushed us in that direction. And by the time we made it to Los Angeles, we went to a house party after, you know, the audition day or whatever the showcase and John C. Riley was at the party, which I remember distinctly thinking was super cool.
3 (54m 12s):
Although the party just felt like, like we had all told ourselves like what LA was
5 (54m 23s):
Up with those Russian girls. Do you remember that at all drug stuff? And I brought like two right guys to that party that didn't even speak English. Do you remember that at all?
3 (54m 34s):
That's hilarious. No. See because Kelly and I were there for like, I'm not joking for like 20 minutes. You go to the hotel and we took off. We were like, this is not, this is whatever, this is gross. I don't want to do this. And so she and the girls had rented a, had rented some convertible and we'd went for a drive to see the Pacific ocean. Cause Kelly had never seen it at that point. And so we're standing there in the dark, overlooking the Pacific ocean and I'm like super like shy when it, you know, when I was dating back in the day and Kelly looked at me and was like, now is when you kiss. And so the best thing for me that came out of the theater school is my relationship with her, you know,
5 (55m 20s):
Chip with me.
1 (55m 22s):
Yes. Well
3 (55m 24s):
It's right here. So I had to
1 (55m 27s):
Talking Dave, talk to me. I always liked her.
5 (55m 32s):
I did a lot of scene work with Kelly. We,
3 (55m 34s):
She's not really right here. You guys can stop. Oh, I really like
5 (55m 38s):
Her. She's the best man.
1 (55m 41s):
So Dave talking about our apartment, brought up a bunch of memories for me that I had forgotten about. And I'll just share one of them with you now that is really touching my heart. So the thing about you is that you always possessed yourself as an artist from, I mean, despite it sounds like you were experiencing a lot of depression and despite problems that you had, you, one of your strengths in my mind has always been a complete, no conflict or ambivalence about being an artist. And you taught that to me. And I never did any type of visual art in my life.
1 (56m 24s):
And so we lived at that apartment and all of a sudden I got into drying and you were so supportive of getting emotional. You were so supportive of me. And, and I remember thinking, oh, I'm an artist too. Oh,
5 (56m 42s):
Thank you for that. I, the nights we would sit up doing like continuous, I was so fascinated. Do you remember? We, we got really into that trip on light, trying to connect our thoughts and connect our creativity together and connect our imaginations together. And I was so, so like into that idea, when we would sit up late at night, we put a fire on sometimes and we'd get the big piece of paper and we do continuous drawings together. You just start working. And we were, there was a creative thing that was going on with us that was so rewarding. And you contributed to the fledgling press, which I still have. We published our own little Xen out of our apartment that I would use the DePaul copy machines to get free prints.
5 (57m 29s):
And then I distribute them all over. Do you remember William Burroughs editor found one? And we got, I got to go down and, and meet burrows and, and all of us people who were like, oh, I don't write. And I was like, well, but, and you didn't know we did. So I'm glad that you have that memory. I think about that stuff often. In fact, I was just, I still have it's right in my filing cabinet right here, all those old fledgling presses. And I was thinking about those days. And I, it's hard when you're a survivor of near, near death addiction and depression, because it's easy to just go. That was that time.
5 (58m 10s):
But we know that it wasn't, and it wouldn't have been what it was if it had. And I'm, there were even in the midst of that abject suffering, which came much later, by the way, it was really into the fourth year. And that God, that year after I graduated, when I, the candle finally like caught up with itself and then I melted, but that stuff was so clutch man. And like the improv group that we would do at Finley's and like playing together, Gina, like I forgot all the musicians come play like their bongos in our living room and Spontaneously create poetry who knows, like it was great.
1 (58m 56s):
We had a party one time and it was so cold outside. And I guess maybe we had no heat that we hung blankets, like in front of our door to try to create warmth. And people came to our party and all they could do is sit down and be under jackets and blazers like 20 degrees inside of that apartment. I mean, we survived and I think the, the resiliency
4 (59m 22s):
And I get, you've talked a little bit, each of you about, you know, maybe the, that you were in, was it, who's a ROTC and that you played sports too. Where does resilience come from that you guys kept keep going? And, and sometimes it's spiritual sometimes, but that I'm fascinated by resilience. So there are so many times in our lives where you each, where all of us could have been like, you know what, Nope, bye. I'm not going to be an artist anymore. I'm going to, or where does your resilience come from? Do you think
3 (59m 51s):
Stubbornness, you know, I it's, it's super hard. And, and I look at my career and I think about that, how lucky I feel that I am and grateful I am that I've been able to cobble it together and to make a living. But, you know, there are times when things are slow. And for me, so much of, so much of your sense of self-worth is tied to your ability to provide or contribute. But I think at the end of the day, it's seeing myself as an artist and as nothing else and being stubborn to the extent that I'm, I'm not, I'm not willing to let that go in the way that I'm not willing to cut off my feet and try to learn to walk again.
3 (1h 0m 45s):
You know, it's just, it's who I am. It's a part of me.
5 (1h 0m 49s):
I, I feel the same. And I know John, you know, express this in John and Kelly met at such a young age, but when I met Eve, it was like, when for the ride, then it's there's years where we're going to make $12,000 this years, we're going to make $2 million this years we're going to make no, you know, it's like, this is, and, and, and, and, and I'm grateful that I've got the partner who goes, of course, or, you know, John gets the call Monday. You have to go to, you know, Quebec to shoot a movie for two months. And Kelly goes, okay, let's figure it out. This Eve does the same for me. So we're very, I have incredible partnership.
5 (1h 1m 30s):
I have the stubbornness, you know, John and I have that shared kind of like, there's no way I don't give it. If I got told 99 times, no, I always believed in my heart that that was getting me one step closer to the yes that I needed. And I always tried to look at every moment and opportunity as, and also I think the gratitude that for me personally, which is different than John, but having survived, nearly dying and coming back my tray, you know, when I got my life back, I said, you know, God, I I'm all I'm going to do for the rest of my life is smoke cigarettes and drink coffee. I promise, I, I, if I can have, and if I could just have an apartment and a, and a TV and a VCR, and I worked like regular jobs for a couple of years, I mean, I knew John at that time when I wasn't even acting again.
5 (1h 2m 15s):
And
3 (1h 2m 18s):
Let me tell a story about you quick,
5 (1h 2m 20s):
Because I'm gonna start crying
3 (1h 2m 22s):
When Kelly and I, we had a lot of Dave's belongings. Like we had taken them on board when Dave crashed and had to go home to Kansas.
5 (1h 2m 35s):
I was on the kids aside, but I was right there at the,
3 (1h 2m 41s):
And we were going down there to see him. And we went and we took his stuff and we only got to see him briefly and he was beaten, but he still smiled. And the next time I think we got to see Dave was at Webster place and he was working at Webster place. And what was your job you were doing there at that time?
5 (1h 3m 5s):
Popcorn identify. I was every theater five. Can you clean the popcorn spill and theater five? I was at DePaul theater school graduate with a BFA in, in the polyester pants with the name tag grateful to be making $11 an hour. Yeah.
3 (1h 3m 22s):
And the guys, the, the energy and the positivity you see coming out of dude right now was the same when he was standing there with the little dust pan on the stick and the, and the, and the, you know, popcorn around his feet. Like that was, that was all there. Right then such a powerful, powerful force, man. Thanks.
5 (1h 3m 43s):
The gratitude is just, can't stop. And I'm so grateful for you guys. I'm John, you know, I'm all three of you guys, Jen, you know, you were there cause you knew personally outside of all the theater school stuff. My, my therapist and the, this, the psycho, the counselor who helped me when I was in the mental hospital, Gina and I were there when, when I was a baby and John put my diaper on and cleaned my little bottom and pouted it up. Gratitude is the best is such a great fuel for art. Because even when we go to the darkest places that we have to, you know, inhabit really nasty skins or really creepy characters that you think, how am I gonna, how am I gonna find any love within this?
5 (1h 4m 29s):
I think for anybody to connect with them, love is still, it's so important and it's such an important part of storytelling. And so for me, that, that gratitude it's fuel. So thanks guys. I'm grateful for today for certain.
1 (1h 4m 46s):
What did that, I wouldn't know. I know we have to go, but what did that bring up for you just now,
4 (1h 4m 50s):
Just like the idea that when Gina and I talk about this a lot about the fact that our shame, the things that we think are so shameful and so ugly are the things that connect us to each other in such a deep way that if we can, if we can sort of not deny the fact that we're all connected in this way, especially having gone through theater school and stuff, but even just human beings that we can take the shame and turn it into something beautiful is, is a huge gift.
1 (1h 5m 28s):
Amen.
3 (1h 5m 29s):
Closer for sure.
4 (1h 5m 31s):
Well, thank you guys. This is the greatest thing I'm like now I'm like, wait, wait, our podcast has to be at first. I was like, our podcast is just Dave and John. And then I'm like, okay, that can't be a podcast forever, but I'm going to podcast. friends.
1 (1h 5m 55s):
We will have to have you back. We will have to do a part two and three and four, but thank you so much.
4 (1h 6m 3s):
It's totally wonderful. And, and, and everything that you write, you said at the beginning, John, that like the stuff comes back, it comes back. Maybe it's 20 years later, maybe it's 30 years later, maybe it's five minutes. But the things that you two have clearly put out into the world are coming back to you in a way that is just makes you shine. And so shine on. That's all I have to say. You sure.
3 (1h 6m 28s):
Thank you so much. You guys, for allowing us to be here with you together. That's super, super cool.
4 (1h 6m 34s):
Okay. Thank you. Have a good day. Everybody.
1 (1h 6m 40s):
I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina. Polizzi follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.
You got to call her up again and ask her to do all right.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:24:44):
I'm going to make a note of that right now. Anyway. Congratulations, John and Dave, you survived theater school. No, not barely. You guys. I think you both had excellent theater school careers, but I'd like to hear it from you.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:25:06):
Uh, w I'm so glad that you're our first duo that we've had on today. The fancy friends. And I wanted to know about your experience, like together as well as a part, but like my first question for you is, did you love each other right away?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:22):
I don't, I don't know. John, did you
Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:26):
Well, for sure,
Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:30):
Gina the longest and by the way, so good to see you. It's only been 20 years like this. I mean, we've, we've messaged and emailed a lot, but Jesus, this is amazing. Oh my God. Uh, so I was roommates with Gina and we were very close and then I left school for a year. And so the school moves forward. Jen, you and Gita were in the same grade. You guys all moved forward. And when I came back, it was a whole new group of people to get to know. And John, um, was one of the first people that I knew when I got back. So I felt very out of place. And, um, it was hard to come into because it's such a competitive environment and it's such a, um, intense environment. And I was both competitive and intense. So to jump into the fire with a whole new group of people, to kind of, it's hard, cause you're posturing, you're sizing up, but at the same time, you're looking for connection.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:26:27):
You're looking for support and it's, it's such a conflict. And John, I'm not going to get emotional today. I swear to God, but it was like one of the first people that extended such, uh, a kind generous since he's got that, that, that inimitable,
John Hoogenakker (00:26:46):
I'm a cuddler.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:26:47):
sincerity, which is what makes him such a brilliant actor. But he had that like, look me in the eyes in class and like, Hey, he has a little bit of a draw. Like I'm really excited. You're here. And I want to get to know you and I hope we get to work together. And then we went and hung out at his apartment soon after that and maybe smoke something. This is recorded, sorry, John. And then we watched star Wars stuff together and that was our bond. So that's my version of this story.
John Hoogenakker (00:27:16):
Um, no, God, we, we had a lot of fun. I have old pictures of you and I, and Iyisha and, uh, snuggling ghanaba, um, you snuggling and which I'm going to send you guys. Um, but, uh, yeah, we, uh, jeez, I just remember, uh, I remember Dave's, um, it bullions from day one, his like drive in his, in his positive energy. And I think, um, that is the thing that ha that has, that has been such a, um, such a driving force in Dave's career, um, is that he just never stops. It comes down to energy and positivity, and he's constantly pumping that into the world. And I think Dave has known for many, many years that it, you know, that that kind of stuff comes back to you. Um, and I think I was drawn to that in Dave, uh, yeah, from the giddy-up, but
Gina Pulice (00:28:10):
Also recognize somehow that he needed you to take on that stare you in the eye and tell him you want to get to know him vibe. Did you know that he felt overwhelmed coming back?
John Hoogenakker (00:28:23):
Uh, I D I think from my perspective, the thing that drew Dave and I, to one another was a sense that, you know, in the theater school at the time that we were all there was such a, um, there was so, uh, it was a lot of mind fuckery going on. And there was a lot of, um, I think a lot of us in the acting track, especially I know this was the case throughout the school wanted, um, positive reinforcement from teachers. And sometimes I think my perspective was that people were manufacturing emotions and things to achieve that positive reinforcement. And Dave, uh, just seemed to be Dave to me, which I really, really, uh, enjoyed and appreciated. And, um, yeah. And so I think that was, uh, that was, um, it was, it was Dave's, um, his, his sort of genuine vibe that I was
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:29:20):
Both of you when I've run into you. I mean, you know, I don't, I live in California now, but I've seen you like at PR and Dave ed ran into you, one set of Starbucks in Chicago, the genuineness is unbelievable. So I, I think you're both fancy and I'm sort of sorry, starstruck, I, but when I, but there is sort of, both of you have this sort of face to face, like, look you in the eye, I'm going to have an actual conversation with you. And I think that makes you not only great, great actors, but what's more important to me is great human beings. And I, um, I don't know. I'm just so glad you guys found each other and that you're friends. It's like, no, it's not. That's how I feel. Yeah. That's how I feel
Dave Dastmalchian (00:30:06):
The work and outside of our mutual, passionate love for the theater acting film, um, storytelling, character creation, cinema history, literature, like John. And I did kick it off immediately with a lot of, of, um, you know, kindred kind of passions for things which we all shared because we all were in that, that, that, that vortex. Um, and obviously we were drawn there because we had a passion for this stuff, but, um, you know, I've been through, uh, the ringer in my life outside of my acting career as well. And, and, and John was always one of the first people to show up and be there for me when I needed someone as well, which was you, you're not taught that in the, again, this is about surviving the theater school you're taught, um, that you're in the ensemble family mode during rehearsal. And it felt like kind of, um, during a production, but then it was right back to, you know, this really intensely bizarre, like John there's no better, I guess, adverb than mind fuckery of, um, and, and it was, it was, um, I'm very grateful, um, and, uh, many great, true friendships came out of that time because when you go through something that intense and that trying, but we, um, we, we, I would love to tell a quick story if I can, because we were kind of, we, weren't kind of, we were absolutely ups. We were in trouble a lot, um, because it's no mystery that I had a pretty intense substance abuse problem in college. And John had a pretty serious attitude problem in college. And, uh, neither of us dealt well with authority, although we loved being directed, which has always been a paradox with us. Like we love great directors that get in and like help guide us and shape things. But at the same time, we are the first people to, you know, get our backs up sometimes. And I, um, and I remember John and I were so frustrated that some of the people like he, he, there was this, this feeling of like posturing or presentation that always felt in authentic to us. And we wanted, you know, Chicago, we want to rub real dirt on our faces and smashed glass, and we're going to get in there. And, and we were doing a scene together from, um, uh, Glen Gary, Glen Ross for, um, second year, uh, scene study work with Joe [inaudible]. And it was so intense. It was the Moss era now seen at the Chinese restaurant. John is just needling into me to like, you're gonna, you're gonna get in on this heist, or I'm going to ruin your life. And we loved, like, we got into that so much. It was all space work. And we're in generally John and I were in, I was either in rave clothes or John was in some tide by Bob Marley thing. And, um, and so we had to speak special guests coming to the theater school who was going to do a scene study, uh, workshop. And it was F Murray Abraham. And, um, I'll never forget. We were all so excited, big fans. We go, they did it at a separate location on campus.
John Hoogenakker (00:33:07):
And it was where it was history of dramatic lit I think,
Dave Dastmalchian (00:33:12):
where nobody cheated. And he, um, he Through the fees that he was working on so quickly, and he was getting frustrated, like stop with the, stop with the presentation, like w Let's work these.
John Hoogenakker (00:33:28):
And he was also, he was also like not giving, like he would give a really incisive note and then would be like, all right, now, fuck off and do better in life!
Dave Dastmalchian (00:33:38):
He didn't want over preparation. He wanted this to be like a malleable Play-Doh Eve kind of moment where we could, so we were not part of that event, John and I were just sitting in the back row, probably like, just like, Whoa, this is so cool, dude. Like "that's F Murray Abraham!"]. And he looked to the crowd. He's like, is that all you got? Cause they had prepared. I don't remember four or five scenes.
John Hoogenakker (00:34:01):
Yeah. It was like, it looks like, well, it was like two from each classroom. And, and then we had like a break and the teachers were kind of looking around at each other, like, well, that's all I had. And that's all I got Dave, you went to
Dave Dastmalchian (00:34:15):
Slowik Turned to me and John and slowok. goes, "You guys!"
Speaker 7 (00:34:18):
You guys, can we do it, John? Can we do it here? And John's like, yeah, let's do it.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:34:25):
What else is in costumes that they've got their props that John and I hopped up with? Uh, we, we may do, right. We got a bottle that we brought from someone else's seen some cups. Um, and we jumped up there and we did this. We did the scene where F Murray had recently done the piece or he was familiar enough with it that he could kind of jump in and, and do with this. But I
Dave Dastmalchian (00:34:45):
Was so proud that day, even Though I knew what F ups we were. And even though I knew that I was, I knew that the work we were putting into and the discipline and the, and the, and the love we were putting into building these characters together and how much we loved playing off one another was, I knew in that moment, this is something I'm going to do with this guy for the rest of my life. And sure enough, we've gone on to do films, two films together, outside of school, we continue to collaborate. Um, I knew in that moment though, I was like, this guy I'm holding onto him for the rest of my life.
John Hoogenakker (00:35:18):
Dude, I wanna, I want to jump in because that was such, that was, first of all, it was, it was an amazing experience that we were like, we were like greyhounds, just ready to run. And, and we were also, we didn't realize that. So I'm going to, we talk about surviving the theater school. I don't know where to start, but more importantly, I don't know where I should stop. So you guys got to shut me up. Um, so, so, uh, I ran, I got that bottle from my roommate who drank Jamison, like all the time. So I ran across because we were in Seton hall, not Seton hall, but a sanctuary. And I got the bottle and I came back and Dave and I were getting ready and we do the, we do the scene and I knew, we knew that F Murray was going to just like, give us a note and dismiss us. So he gave us this note. And the w the one thing was I had been breaking up this paragraph that I was giving to Dave, you know, kind of feeling my way through it. And she kind of schmacting him and he was like, you know, this David Mamet gives you all of the direction you need with the punctuation, like Shakespeare. And you need to just drive through without taking a break, because that's going to give you more pay off at the end of the, at the end of the scene. And Dave and I looked at each other and we just started doing the scene before he could dismiss us. So we jumped right into it. And he had gone through all the people in our class that had been put forward. He had gone through upperclassmen, and that was the first group, Dave and I were the first two that had the audacity. Did you jump, take the note and jump back in? And we'll when we finished, he was like, that is preparation.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:37:01):
[inaudible] mother.
Gina Pulice (00:37:05):
I love that. I love that because what you're telling me in that is you each made a decision where our company is called Undeniable. So you made it, you made a decision to be undeniable. You made a decision to not let him, I'm sure everybody would. I, I'm not sure anybody else in that situation would have been willing to get up and go on and not let him deny you, not let him interrupt you. And you were like 18, 19 years old, which is like even more. So you, you both mentioned mind fuckery, which is a very evergreen theme on our podcast. And I would love to hear a little bit more about as you look back at this time in your life now, uh, and you imagine, cause some of our professors were probably the age then that we are now, what do you make of some of this? How have you reconciled some of what you now consider to be mind. Great. Did it feel like a mind fuckery then, or does it just look that way in the rear view,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:38:09):
I'm just going to add a caveat, a quick caveat in that I teach at the theater school. So, um, I, and, and I, um, I'm trying to change the culture there a little bit. And so, um, I, I just always am really hyper aware that like we want, um, say whatever you want, that's what I want to say, whatever
Dave Dastmalchian (00:38:36):
The Vincentian Brotehrs called in the legal team, man, they're coming, you're talking to John and Hey, don't worry. You go first because I know.
John Hoogenakker (00:38:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I have no idea what I'm going to say. We're on a journey of discovery. No. First of all, to your point, Jen, like I know John and I admire him greatly. I feel like there's gotta be five of him in the planet to achieve all this stuff that he's achieved. And the theater school of today bears little, if any, resemblance to the theater school that Dave and I and you guys, uh, attended. Um, and that said, I don't feel like, uh, the mind fuckery that I, um, felt I was, uh, that I received was the result of, uh, some jerk cadre of teachers sitting around in a circle and being like, who can we -? You know, who can we shit on today? I don't think that's how it was. I think the difference was there was a, a strong, a greater focus on academia. At that point. It was like just giving your life to an institution and, and a philosophy and an approach to doing theater that was, uh, at that time intensely cloistered. Um, didn't allow us to kind of step outside of the school. And we all, uh, to a certain extent kind of knew what we were signing up for. When we came on board, I had been in ROTC when I was in high school. Um, I had competed in debate, so I kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff at the beginning. And I just kind of felt like when I was at theater school, as Dave said, I had a real attitude problem because I was like, I had to take on a lot of debt to go to that school. Um, my family came together and did everything they could to help me, but I, I graduated with a lot of debt. Um, and I kind of felt like, you know what? This is, I'm paying you, but like, we get to have a conversation about this. I know you're the, I know you're the pro I know you've been doing this your entire adult life, but I have questions. And I feel like I'm due an answer and a considered answer. And you don't get to just shut me down because I asked a question and I'm 19 and you're 54. Um, cause I'm here taking on a lot of personal debt that I'm going to carry into my adult life. And you owe me answers. Um, th th that's just, let's just call that an opening, uh, Sally and Dave, you can share it for a little bit,
Dave Dastmalchian (00:41:03):
Like, you know, it was the perfect place for me to train. The culture was a utterly complicated, complex filled with nuance. Lots of gray area came from a tradition steeped in some really, uh, important and impressive theater movements that were more, um, militaristic and disciplinary and really, um, intense. I'll always be grateful for the tools that I picked up in the theater school to this day, saved me on an almost daily basis sets because the awareness it gave me of my body and my voice, and, you know, the depth of my psychology to be able to solve problems on the fly and repeat, you know, emotional recreations, um, was really important. I will say that there were conflicting philosophies and approaches, which is, I think very healthy. One of the things I loved was that nobody said this is the theater school way. It was like, here's the Joe Slowik way. Here's the Bella Itkin way. Here's the David Avcollie way, here's the Rick Murphy way. You go to these classes, you see what works for you. You see where you're doing the best work, and then you have to grow up quickly and you have to be prepared for this dog, eat dog world of the arts that you're going to be thrown into. Once you graduate here, there is no, you know, um, kind of kind or gentle or entirely psychologically easy way to prepare somebody for the, the, the, the meat grinder that is the show business. And so for all those reasons, I was incredibly grateful. I think there were, there was a lack of oversight when it came to, um, mental wellness with some of the faculty, and I'll always hold them responsible for the fact that they allowed sexual relationships between professors and students. I think it's entirely inappropriate for people in that kind of power, um, in there.
John Hoogenakker (00:42:53):
It's unbelievable when you look back on it.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:42:57):
When I think back on the fact that I knew there were teachers that we were meant to listen to and respect and regard and trust with our deepest parts of ourselves who were seduced and having sex with students that breaks my heart. And, and I, I would tell them that to their faces today, if I could see them, but I hope they'll watch. Um, and I also think that, uh, that there was some abusive behavior, um, that I'll never understand other than they were human beings who, um, you know, who were just people that, um, were, uh, that, that, that did, that did some things that may, I like to, I like to believe that they thought they might've been helping push us, or, but some of the things that were either said or done, I go, man, that was, I can remember sitting with Gina one time. And I mean, I I'm a pretty emotionally fragile guy, but I was like on the verge of, of tears, of, of something that had happened with one of the professors that we both really admired, but also we both really kind of feared and, um, and it was just like why, but, but in all, I'm grateful because I'm not one of those people I'll run into people from the theater school who are just carrying so much damage from that time. And I'm so grateful that when I look back on my time at the theater school, in all honesty, it's with a lot of positive, it is I really go, wow. That was an amazing experience. Yes. I have anger, frustration pains about certain things that happen that I can't believe, but I do feel, I feel like it really prepared me for the world in which I'm working now.
John Hoogenakker (00:44:37):
I totally agree. And I, I, you know, I look back on that time and I kind of feel like what, you know, when I look at things that had that I feel like have gone pear shaped and that I was a part of, I always try and think about what, what could I have done better? And for me, I look back on that period. And I think that I was not, uh, emotionally mature enough or perhaps mature enough in general, to take on board everything that I could have learned, uh, as an actor. And I'm talking about like, uh, technique wise in that program, because I was so emotionally just kind of bombarded with. So, so much of it is, is subjective in the, in the beginning. And we're going into a career where, um, you may go up against four other people in your type, or maybe not in your type who were phenomenal actors, and you may get that job, or you may not. Um, and there could be any number of reasons why you did or you didn't and kind of trying to prepare a child. And let's be honest, if you're not in the master's track, you're still a child, um, for the realities and the emotional rigors of, uh, of what could end up being a career in a full life, doing that stuff would be the greatest act of compassion that an educational center could impart to a child. And I feel like the theater school was like that wasn't even a thing. Um, and, um, you know, I mean, not understanding why, you know, everybody probably makes the case of like, Oh, gee whiz. I was so talented in my hometown. And then I went to the theater school and I was like, Oh my God, everybody's talented. What am I going to do? But you still in class with folks, uh, you know, all these hours a day, all these days a week. And some people are, uh, become darlings. Some people do not. Some people back then, um, were kept on after the first year, after the second year. And some people were not, and there were, there were there, there were like major head scratchers about that, like to go back and to have completed two years and to be respected in the eyes of your peers and presumably in the eyes of your teachers. And then to get that, that letter that, you know, maybe this isn't for you to be able to, to make that determination in another person's life. And in that way is just, it's, it's astounding. That that was what we signed up for. And I'll tell ya, uh, I remember I'll never forget. That was not really made clear. Um, prior to coming to the theater school, like actually sitting there on the first day, I remember sitting cross-legged on the floor and listening to kind of talking, this is the greatest city in the mind of God and His being like, you know, some of you will Graduate. Most of you will not. I remember like, wow, that's pretty intense. Like I was not so clear on the whole half of you are going to get cut the first year and then half the remaining are going to get cut. The second year, that to me was like deeply, uh, ingenuous disingenuous, because what was really happening. And again, the school is a completely different school. Now they've dealt with this stuff. What was happening was they were bringing in free labor that was actually paying them shitloads of money to be free labor, and then kicking them to the curb. They, I think had a pretty good idea at audition, which of these four kids were actually going to make it to graduation. And I think we had some idea of that, but we were literally pitted against one another. I'll give you one example and then I'll shut up and let Dave go again. Um, we did, uh, an intro in second year, lot called Laughing Wild, and it was by Christopher Durang and it's a two-person so two hander, it's a man and it's a woman. And what they did was they cast four males and something like nine females and the director never set the lines. So every night it was literally these kids who still had not been invited back for their third year and could still be cut in a fucking verbal knife fight every
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:49:11):
This is fucking crazy! Yeah.
John Hoogenakker (00:49:13):
And you know, it was the director. Like I still had really long hair at that point. Pier said Jason Pierce had really long hair. Uh, Bryan Sharp had really long hair. And I think it was Hunter, uh, Andre. Um, and it was kind of like Ilko didn't really like our long hair. So it was like, you guys all have to look the same. That's what I'm going for. So we all got our haircut and then we commenced to like fighting over these lines. And what we ultimately did was probably pretty cool to look at, but it was also a hot mess. Um, you know, cause he's
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:49:49):
Totally, no, I mean, I, I think it begs the, so I guess the bigger question here for me and I don't know what you guys think, but, um, th 17, should we be doing this? I, I really, I mean, I know for me, I'm, I'm grateful as hell I went there. I was, I was cut and then asked back, it was a weird thing. I got a letter and then another letter. And then, um, so as a 17 year old or sick, I was 16. Like, this is so much mind fuckery inherent in the system. And w when we went there, I mean, we're all glad we went, but like man kids, I don't know that we should be, if I would, if I had a kid, I don't know that I want my kid to be engaged in a verbal knife fight at 17 with Hunter, Andre. I I'm just, I don't know, but that's, that's a big question.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:50:41):
I wouldn't put my kids though on the track right now to be actors because of that. But the reality, the harsh reality is that the business of theater and the business of film and television needs 20, 21, 22 year old actors. So to throw them into the best training you can at 18, 19, 20, 21, it sucks. But it's also like it's an exceptional calling to choose the path of the artist. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's more, you know, not to be, you know, uh, whatever ridiculous about it, but it, it, it, it, it is like it's, it's, so it's such an unfair, the world is so unfair. As we know, Jesus Christ turn on the news right now, the world is an unfair place, but the arts are so unfair. And it's like, if someone's going to it's, it's such a complicated question. Cause I do think like right at like 18, maybe that's the earliest. If my kid said, dad, I want to do what you do. I'd say you do as much community theater in high school theater and drama, as you can speech debate, blah, blah, blah. I'm not taking them to a Hollywood audition until they're 18. Um, and if they want to pursue it, I would want them to go study and train somewhere. Like what the theater school is now, you know, at 18. But yeah, it's really complicated. It is. Yeah.
John Hoogenakker (00:52:09):
I will say that, you know, I was, I was just going to throw this in. When, when I graduated, I got a job working at Chicago Shakespeare, which was started like a couple months after graduation. And I got on stage with, um, Kevin Goodall, Lisa Dodson, Greg Finkler, Brad Armacost, um, all these amazing, uh, classic classic Chicago actors, um, stalwart Chicago actors. And it was the first, uh, it was the first show in the, in their new space. Um, so they had all these great people in the cast. So I got so lucky to be, you know, a messenger in that play. Um, but that was when my personal education in the theater like really started. And that was when I saw like these Titans, uh, kind of dealing with the humdrum rejection of, yeah, I went for another one at PR I didn't get it. Yeah. But it went to blah, blah, blah. And he's a great dude, which is a thing I've always loved about Chicago. It's like, you know, you get to a certain age, it's always the same folks in the room and you kind of are cheering for everybody. You sit in that waiting room, especially PR and it's, it's always a reunion of friends. Um, but I, I, so when I talk to people, parents of child, actors on sets who want to know what I would advise them to do, if these were my kids like Dave, I mean, I kind of, I'm kind of like, you know, if they are still interested in this, when they're 18, I would take all the money that you've saved for college. If you've saved any and just fund their apartment in Los Angeles or Chicago or New York, like start them off when they're that early, because they're four years ahead of the rest of the pack when they graduate. And they will have spent that four years learning at the feet of actual working professionals.
Gina Pulice (00:54:08):
Yeah. Well, the truth is when somebody wants to be this from the time they're five years old, which probably all of us did, there's no stopping them. I mean, we've heard stories of parents saying, please don't call, study theater, please do something else. And they're going to do what they're going to do, but so let's bring it back to when you guys decided you wanted to go to a conservatory for college. Was that something you knew all along? Did you figure it out later? How did you pick DePaul?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:54:37):
For me, it was, it was, uh, it was the, it was fate. It was, um, you know, it was truly fate. I mean, it was, it was like a miracle of God. And to me, God works through teachers. It was the power of teachers. I, um, my parents were a mess throughout my, you know, junior high and high school years where I was very much on my own in a lot of regards. And I was a high functioning, um, academically, you know, in the, in the, in the, in a good tier. Um, but I was really, uh, excelling in both speech and football. Those were kind of my two strengths coming through high school. And I didn't see the path towards, um, the academic dreams that I had for college, um, in, in speech or acting or drama for God's sake, but I did through football. So my dream was going into my senior year of high school. I was going to be as yoked as possible, play the best game I could play, get us to state, get a scholarship to go to a better school than I could go to that I knew was at my hands with the amount of money that my mom and I had. And with that scholarship, I was going to try and become a high school football coach who, who ran the drama club. That was my dream for myself, two teachers, my speech coach and our drama teacher said to sat down with me separately and said, you have something you, we will help you if you're, if you're afraid of applying to like arts programs or theater or following a track and drama and hearing that was mindblowing. And they did, they helped me do the research. I looked at SMU, NYU and DePaul. I did a regional audition and then ultimately up to Chicago and my audition was in front of John Jenkins and John Watts. I'll never forget. I was there in cutoff, Jean shorts, a tie dye, Janis Joplin t-shirt and my football socks. And there was a bunch of kids in leotards and jazz shoes who knew what they meant when they were saying things. I did it, my, my monologue was completely wrong. They said, don't do a dialect that I did, uh, a scene from Equis. And then they, we said, don't do a dialect. And I luckily remembered does a tiger wear a neck tie? And I just threw that out there. And it was fate. It was God, it was whatever you choose to believe. But then I got a letter, uh, very soon after that, that, and I was miserable thinking about playing four years of college football. That's important to note, I did not want to do that, but I knew it was a means to an end. My brother was a collegiate athlete and I knew the demands of that and that, that was going to be my life for four years. But for me to get the education I wanted, it was worth it. Um, and I got this letter that not only had I been invited to participate in the theater school program, but I had also been given this, um, this, this huge scholarship, uh, called the Stanley and
John Hoogenakker (00:57:35):
Good for you, Dave, we're all happy for you.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:57:39):
That's my story. I'm done as John, just going into the story about the buckets. Hey, I left school with a massive amount of Debt as well because my scholarship did not cover living expenses. That's why I had to leave theater school for a year to go
John Hoogenakker (00:57:58):
Dave. Yeah. Dave wanted to live in a four bedroom, three bathroom.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:03):
Gina can tell you where we lived on Lill. What was Our landlord's name?
Gina Pulice (00:58:11):
Earl Pionke!
John Hoogenakker (00:58:15):
was Lill, the place. It was like right around the corner from healing earth resources? Like, yeah, that's the one where like a couple like, or an adjacent building had the, uh, the deck collapsed right there. Yeah.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:31):
And the tanks? remember the Space Time tanks, John. The floating tanks?
John Hoogenakker (00:58:33):
what's that?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:33):
Didn't we go do that together? The tanks, the, that the, the deprivation. The sensory deprivation ones?
John Hoogenakker (00:58:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, right there. One of the oldest ones in the city is right there. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for a, no dude. I'm so happy. So that'd be for you for getting a scholarship to DePaul. That's great. Um, good for you. Um, I didn't get a scholarship. I, uh, no, we, no, I totally very similar story except I was not going to be an athlete, uh, ever. Um, I was in, uh, I was, uh, in speech and debate in high school. I had not done theater since I was a child, like a younger child, uh, because I got, um, braces and my dad who was a, a local actor in Charlotte, um, was like, there's no, there's no market for a kid with braces. So then I was, um, I think at about 10th grade, I started competing in humorous interpretation, which Dave? Yeah. Um, and, and I did really well in that. And so then when I got to, uh, senior year, the drama teacher and I'd never taken drama at the theater at the, uh, high school, you know, she would, uh, she would accompany the speech team on debate trips. She reached out and she was like, Hey, you know, if you want to take this class, you can take the senior level drama class. And she, and my speech coach, uh, Barbara Miller said, you know, you should, you should check out some theater schools, see where you can study. And we, I looked into like, uh, a Julliard I was really interested in because I knew that Robin Williams had gone there, but I think it was more expensive to audition there. And I somehow missed the whole boat on, you know, I think a lot of people, I know Kelly, my wife, um, auditioned at, uh, in Chicago, but for a bunch of schools all at once. Um, and I, uh, I came in like late January, early February, uh, and we stayed, it was going to be a big deal for my family. So we stayed at the Palmer house. Um, and I went and I, again like, like Dave, I was surrounded by all these kids that just seemed so focused. And so like tuned in to this world that all of a sudden seemed very foreign to me and completely unattainable. And like, I was just completely a fish out of water. And, um, and I did, uh, my, my drama teacher had given me a monologue that was, you know, gonna be probably like, does a tire tire wear a neck tie or something, you know, appropriate for the location for the venue. And I didn't, you know, I, we had done, um, a musical called runaways and there was a monologue and runaways that I thought, well, it just really spoke to me. It was about a, a young kid whose mother had passed away. And he was kind of like just mourning her. And I remembered my drama teacher being like, well, it's your life? Good luck. And, um, and I came, came to the school and we did the whole, like, they let us through warmups, which was bizarre. That was Patrice, I think. Um, and then I did my monologue for like Betsy, I believe, and maybe John and possibly bill Brown. Um, and, uh, and I left completely dejected and I told my dad, I was like, well, that's not going to happen. Um, you know,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:02:06):
So I have to interrupt and say that everyone we talk to, I am not kidding you. Every single human I've talked to says, I left that place after my audition feeling like, well, I don't, I think I bombed, But no one I've talked to has been like, I nailed that.
John Hoogenakker (01:02:26):
Well, that's, you know, I that's so, uh, indicative of the way, like the vibe at the time, the teachers weren't like, they weren't there to coddle you and be able to good job. You've really nailed it. I think you're going to go Places said, no DePaul teacher ever. No, no, no. They certainly, certainly they do now. But, uh, but yeah, so we left and I had forgotten my watch. Cause, you know, you had to like all of a sudden, like I don't, I think I just barely remembered to bring sweat pants or something like that. Um, and, uh, so I forgot my watch. So my dad was like, I'm sure you did find bud. And so like the next day or whatever, he calls Melissa Meltzer and he's like, Hey Melissa, I'm wondering, did you guys find a watch? Um, cause John, he lost a watch. You didn't, you didn't find a watch. Huh? Okay. All right. Well, uh, thank you. And then she was like, so how does John feel like he did? And my dad was like, Oh, well, he bombed it. He did very well. I just wanted to make sure we got that watch before we Charlie. And, uh, and she was like, yeah, he's one of you we're sending out a couple, uh, a couple letters of admission right now or whatever acceptance right now. And he's one of them and I just could not believe it. And, um, yeah, it was, it was really, really great. But again, I had no idea what I was signing up for, because if it wasn't DePaul, it was going to be Appalachian state, um, or community college in Charlotte because I mean, I had, I had, uh, I was in AP classes and I had done well on my SATs, but I was not a focused student otherwise. And, uh, didn't have the scores to get into state or Carolina or any of the vaunted, uh, universities in my home state.
Gina Pulice (01:04:18):
According to my research, you guys did at least two shows together. Uh, uh, yeah, right. Um, I got the Blues and Peter pan, Peter pan,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:04:33):
The, uh, we did the, um, uh, uh, Glengarry Glen Ross scene together. And then our senior year when we were all very frustrated with the, with the, with the, with the plays that had been mostly, there was some really cool plays that were selected for our fourth year, but we were, we were frustrated collectively John, his wife, Kelly, our friend, Dennis Zack, a whole group of us got together. And we put on our own production of white check. Uh, we worked together, uh, doing that, uh, outside of school and performed at a coffee shop nearby because we were determined to do challenging work that was going to actually give us a chance to do something. So, yeah. But while we were those first four years, and then in the year, since we've done three things together probably or four, yeah,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:05:25):
teacher was amazing. Teacher was a good,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:05:27):
thank you. Thank you. I was so excited when, um, we got John, uh, it's just putting him into anything is going to elevate it. As you guys know you watch any TV show, any movie, any play, you name it. John comes into something he's going to elevate it. But I knew that that relationship I needed that character that I played in teacher had nobody else to ground him. He had nobody else to clean too. He had nobody else to like tu tu tu, tu, tu tu, you know, make me feel any sense of, of my, the characters, much needed humanity for the audience to get on board with him in those moments that John and I got. And John did a lot of stuff that magically woke up. It was a great script, but man, John took it to the, a much, a greater level, but just which is the magic he does. He did the same thing in animals. When I said, we've got to please be in my movie, please. I knew what he would do and sure as he did it, he walked in and everybody was just like, I mean, it's one of the best scenes of a movie that I'm very proud of. It's a 90 minute film filled with scenes that I love, but that is the scene I've probably gone back to, uh, more than any. And I go, God, really proud of the writing I did there, but what he did with little nuanced moments, I've, I've learned a lot watching my friend onstage and on, on, on set and I will continue to, I also watch everything he does obviously because he is my friend, but also because he gets to do a lot of really cool stuff. And, um, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot from, from you, John.
John Hoogenakker (01:07:07):
I feel the same way about you, man. You, I got to say, Dave has always been an inspiration to me because of, as I mentioned at the beginning of our talk because of the positivity that he puts out into the world. And Dave, you know, as he mentioned earlier, uh, went through the ringer with substance abuse. And, um, I think it's less than 7% of people, uh, who, who have been where you were, uh, ever come back. Um, and so to be one of those people who not just survived, but who thrived in an already incredibly challenging industry, um, is just absolutely astounding. And to, and to continually go back to the well and create, be a force of creativity and, you know, your own engine and guiding your own ship, um, while being, uh, you know, a partner and a father is, um, I, I feel so lucky that I've gotten to lean on you for inspiration and to call you for advice
Dave Dastmalchian (01:08:17):
Or, you know, it's wonderful. Like it's, I'm so grateful and that's another thing I'm so I'll always thank God for the theater school because of John Hoogenakker, and so many people that have been instrumental in my life. And I think it's important to note too, as far as the friendships that were forged in that time, um, you asked earlier too, there was some, obviously there were some teachers that taught me some wonderful techniques and skills, but also really hurt my heart in some certain ways. But that was it wouldn't be fair to, to neglect and not point out that like I'll never forget it. If there was one person who actually did take time to try, I felt like in her way to teach us ways of coping was Phyllis for me, she talked to me a lot about meditation. She introduced me to some books that were really instrumental to my journey, um, and like really wacky, like psychedelic stuff that I was really invested in thinking about at the time and really cool ways of trying to process depression. I didn't, I wasn't diagnosed at that time and I wasn't getting the proper help that I needed for my depression, but that was really, I I'm so grateful, uh, as well as, you know, the encouragement that someone like her showed, she was a needed angel at the time for me, um, in a dark place. Um, and bridges, I mean, I know he wasn't, um, you know, uh, faculty, he was staff, but that guy, um, recognized and saw some stuff that no one else was willing to address in my self-destruction. And he showed up for me way outside and above and beyond the, the, the roll call of whatever his payroll was or required of him
John Hoogenakker (01:10:03):
And his door was Always open. And as a side note, he attended your wedding. I believe Danny. Yeah. He attended mine down in Alabama and Dave's was in California.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:10:12):
He's uh, he, he was he for all of his giving and making fun of, and, and sideways remarks. There was underneath that, this deep concern and love for the students that, um, when I needed it, most was there for me in his is a dear and close personal friend to this day. Um, Oh, I'm all over the place. Now guys, my brain is spinning the coffees. It did, I'm getting emotional. But I'm thinking too about, like you talked about when we first did plays together and I'm just having all these flashbacks of me and John, like I smoked cigarettes. John did, did not, but we would go out back sometimes when we were at, um, like on the fire escape at the, at the, at the victory gardens where we were doing, I got to blues and we'd we talk about this stuff. It's like, God, just doing the shows was actually you're right. That was probably the best education we ever got was just doing the work.
John Hoogenakker (01:11:10):
You can hear it so you can hear it in Dave now, like some of the exuberance, But he was this guy when we would go back and we would be out back and you know, he'd be smoking. It'd be talking about Johnny. I love you, brother. I tell you what, man, we're going to do this. And one day we'll be so big. It's all gonna happen, bro. It's all gonna happen. You just can't wait, man. I love you so much. It's gonna be so great. And I would just be like, I just want to survive. And then when he made like the dude has made it happen, he has,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:11:43):
Oh, wait, I have a question. Oh, go, you want to go beans? No, you go ahead. Okay. I have a question about that because I'm always fascinated by two things. The sh the show quote, showcased experience in Los Angeles for people. I don't know why. I just love that because the stories are, so mine was insane. I had a run-in with John C. Riley that did not go well. And then.
John Hoogenakker (01:12:11):
That was the ONE negative interaction with John C. Riley!
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:12:15):
And I had it. And then also resilience. Those are the two things I want to cover before we, before we get out. Um, but my, my question is about that showcase. What the hell was your experience like
Dave Dastmalchian (01:12:29):
Mine's quick and easy. I was so strung out by that point. You guys, I was literally scrambling to find methadone clinics in Los Angeles, in New York where I could go get doses. So I wouldn't get sick from withdrawals. That, that was the, my top concern. I did a scene with, uh, Whitney Snead at the time who was, we were doing this, this, this, this, this really fun horror scene together that I thought would be a good showcase for LA. But, um, I got no interest, no check marks from anybody. And then, and then luckily, uh, somebody invited me, I got to go over and, and go to universal studios for the day. And I got to go to Dreamworks, which was cool for a minute, but it was completely unrelated to my audition. It was because somebody had invited me to go over there. And that was, uh, that was my big, that was my big, that was like, it was, it was, it was terrible. And I was very close with John at the time, but we, nobody knew. So you guys got to understand, I didn't tell it wasn't like John or my friends. They knew something was wrong with me, but it wasn't like, Hey guys, I got to go score. I was very good at hiding my suffering and which is what made it was so devastating. I know for John and Kelly and my friends who immediately came, you know, like when I wound up in Kansas, after I bottomed out in Chicago and they would come see me, he was just like, would say things like, I'm sorry. I didn't know. And I'm like, how could you, I'm that guy?
Gina Pulice (01:13:56):
Yeah. I lived with them and I didn't know. Well, Oh, sorry.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:14:03):
That was my showcase experience, which is yours and mine. Similar.
Gina Pulice (01:14:10):
What about yours, John ?
Speaker 7 (01:14:12):
Yeah, it was Denuzak and I were scene partners. And, um, we, uh, no, no, no, no. I can't remember.
Gina Pulice (01:14:19):
You guys did scenes. We just did monologue monologues. Yeah.
John Hoogenakker (01:14:23):
Dennis Zack. And I went later for a separate, um, for a separate event when we were like young actors. Um, but, but yeah, when, when I got out there, I, you know, I did the thing, I didn't get any, like, there was no love, um, for me. And it was, you know, it was, uh, I mean it was nerve wracking to do the thing. Cause you just, you're telling yourself at that point, it's like, all right, well, if it doesn't happen here, Oh yes. Hack the pumping gas or, you know, whatever. And, um, Kelly and I had started kind of talking to each other. Um, I had like, literally had seen her, uh, outside of the theater school one morning while we were all gearing up for, uh, for showcase and was just admiring her. Uh, and Denuzak me admiring her. And then he w he got, he did this thing that only Denuzak does where he's like, And then Shayna, like around the same time was like, you know, I really liked John and I want him in my life, but I don't want to date him. One of you girls, you should be you Kelly. Cause I think, you know, Ogden was, uh, maybe with Lisa at this point. Um, but, uh, so somebody by our two close friends had kind of, you know, pushed us in that direction. And by the time we made it to Los Angeles, we went to a house party after, you know, the audition day or whatever the showcase and John C. Riley was at the party, which I remember distinctly thinking was super cool. Um, uh, although the party just felt like, like we had all told ourselves like what LA was,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:16:08):
Oh my God, Kelly. And I wrote up with those Russian girls. Do you remember that at all drug stuff? And I brought like two Russian girls to that party that didn't even speak English. Do you remember that at all?
Speaker 7 (01:16:25):
No, I didn't see because Kelly and I were there for like, I'm not joking for like,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:16:30):
When you took off, you go to the hotel,
John Hoogenakker (01:16:33):
We were like, this is not, this is whatever, this is gross. I don't want to do this. And so she and the girls had rented a, um, had rented some, uh, convertible and we'd went for a drive to see the Pacific ocean cause Kelly had never seen it at that point. And so we're standing there in the dark, overlooking the Pacific ocean and I'm like super like shy when it, you know, when I was dating back in the day and Kelly looked at me and was like, now is when you kill it. And so the best thing for me that came out of the theater school is my relationship with her, um,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:17:10):
No. your relationship with me.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:17:13):
Yes, that's too. Well, you know, Dave right here talking, Dave always liked her.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:17:22):
Oh, I did a lot of scene work with Kelly. We never got, she's not really right here. You guys can stop. Oh, I really like her. She's the best man.
Gina Pulice (01:17:31):
So Dave talking about our apartment, brought up a bunch of memories for me that I had forgotten about. And I'll just share one of them with you now that is really touching my heart. Um, so the thing about you is that you always possessed yourself as an artist from, I mean, despite it sounds like you were experiencing a lot of depression and despite problems that you had, you, one of your strengths in my mind has always been a complete, no conflict or ambivalence about being an artist. And you taught that to me. And I never did any type of visual art in my life. And so we lived at that apartment and all of a sudden I got into drying and you were so, um, supportive of getting emotional. You were so supportive of me. And, and I remember thinking, Oh, I'm an artist too. Oh, thank you for that.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:18:34):
I, the nights we would sit up doing like continuous, I was so fascinated. Do you remember? We, we got really into that trip on like trying to connect our thoughts and connect our creativity together and connect our imaginations together. And I was so, so like into that idea, when we would sit up late at night, we put a fire on sometimes and we get the big piece of paper and we do continuous drawings together. A you just start working. And we were, there was a creative thing that was going on with us that was so rewarding. And you contributed to the fledgling press, which I still have. We published our own little Xen out of our apartment, um, that I would use the DePaul copy machines to get free prints. And then I distribute them all over. Do you remember William Burroughs' editor found one? And we got, I got to go down and, and meet Burroughs and, and all of us people who were like, Oh, I don't write. And I was like, well, but we did. So I'm glad that you have that memory. I think about that stuff often. In fact, I was just, I still have it it's right in my filing cabinet right here, all those old fledgling presses. And I was thinking about those days. And I, it's hard when you're a survivor of, um, near, near death addiction and depression, because it's easy to just go. That was that time, but we know that it wasn't, and it wouldn't have been what it was if it had. And I'm, there were even in the midst of that abject suffering, which came much later, by the way, it was really into the fourth year. And that God, that year after I graduated, when I, the candle finally like caught up with itself and then melted. But, um, that stuff, uh, was so clutch man. And like the improv group that we would do at Finley's and like playing together, Gina, like, um, I forgot all the musicians come play like their bongos in our living room and Spontaneously create poetry who knows, like it was great.
Gina Pulice (01:20:46):
We had a party one time and it was so cold outside. And I guess maybe we had no heat that we hung blankets, like in front of our door to try to create warmth. And people came to our party and all they could do is sit down and be under jackets and play like one 80 degrees inside of that apartment.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:21:08):
We survived. And I, I think the, the resiliency factor, and I guess you've talked a little bit, each of you about, you know, maybe the, that you were in, was it, who's the ROTC and that you played sports too. Where does resilience come from that you guys kept keep going? And sometimes it's spiritual sometimes, but that I'm fascinated by resilience. So there are so many times in our lives where you each were, all of us could have been like, you know what, Nope, bye. I'm not going to be an artist anymore. I'm going to, or where does your resilience come from? Do you think
John Hoogenakker (01:21:42):
Stubbornness? Um, you know, I, it's, it's super hard. And, and, um, I look at my career and I think about that, how lucky I feel that I am, uh, and grateful I am that I've been able to cobble it together and to make a living. Um, but you know, there are times when things are slow. And for me, so much of, uh, so much of your, uh, sense of self-worth is tied to your ability to, uh, provide or contribute. Um, but I think at the end of the day, uh, it's seeing myself as an artist and as nothing else, um, and being stubborn to the extent that I'm, I'm not, I'm not willing to let that go in the way that I'm not willing to cut off my feet and try to learn to walk again, you know? Um, it's just, it's who I am. It's a part of me.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:22:39):
I, I feel the same. And I know John, you know, express this in John and Kelly met at such a young age, but when I met Eve, it was like, when for the ride, then it's there's years where we're going to make $12,000 there's years that we're going to make $2 million this years we're going to make no, you know, it's like, this is, and, and, and, and, and I'm grateful that I've got the partner who goes, Of course, or you know, John gets the call Monday. You have to go to, you know, uh, Quebec to shoot a movie for two months. And Kelly goes, okay, let's figure it out. This Eve does the same for me. So we're very, I have incredible partnership. I have the stubbornness, you know, John and I have that shared kind of like, there's no way I don't give it. If I got told 99 times, no, I always believed in my heart that that was getting me one step closer to the yes that I needed. And I always tried to look at every moment in opportunity as, and also I think the gratitude that for me personally, which is different than John, but having survived, nearly dying and coming back my tray, you know, when I got my life back, I said, you know, God, I I'm all I'm going to do for the rest of my life is smoke cigarettes and drink coffee. I promise, I, I, if I can have, and if I could just have an apartment and a, and a TV and a VCR, and I worked like regular jobs for a couple of years, I mean, I knew John at that time when I wasn't even acting again. And, um,
John Hoogenakker (01:24:08):
Let me tell a story about you real quick,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:24:11):
Please, because I'm going to start crying.
John Hoogenakker (01:24:13):
when, uh, Kelly and I, we had a lot of Dave's, uh, belongings. Like we had taken them on board when Dave, um, crashed and had to go home to Kansas, um, Missouri.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:24:26):
I was on the Kansas side, but I was right there at the
John Hoogenakker (01:24:29):
Yeah. Um, and, uh, we were going down there to see him and we went and we took his stuff and we only got to see him briefly and he was, uh, beaten, but he still smiled. And the next time I think we got to see Dave was at Webster place and he was working at Webster place. And what was your job you were doing there at that time? Popcorn?
Dave Dastmalchian (01:24:57):
I was every theater five. Can you clean the popcorn spill and theater five? I was at DePaul theater school graduate with a BFA in, in the polyester pants with the name tag grateful to be making $11 an hour.
Speaker 7 (01:25:12):
Yeah. And the guys, the, the energy and the positivity you see coming out of dude right now was the same when he was standing there with the little dust pan on the stick and the, and the, and the, you know, popcorn around his feet. Like that was, that was all there. Right then, um, such a powerful, powerful force, man. Thanks, man.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:25:34):
Um, gratitude is, um, just can't stop. And I'm so grateful for you guys. I'm John, you know, I'm all three of you guys. Um, Jen, you know, you were there because you knew personally outside of all the theater school stuff. My, my therapist and the, this, the psycho, the counselor who helped me when I was in the mental hospital, Gina and I were there when, uh, when I was a baby and John put my diaper on and cleaned my little bottom and pouted it up, Sue gratitude is the best is such a great fuel for art. Because even when we go to the darkest places that we have to, you know, inhabit really nasty skins or really creepy characters that you think, how am I gonna, how am I gonna find any love within this? I think for anybody to connect with them, um, love is still, it's so important and it's such an important part of storytelling. And so for me, that, that gratitude, um, it's fuel. Um, so thanks guys. I'm grateful for today.
Gina Pulice (01:26:36):
Boz What did that, I wouldn't know. I know we have to go, but what did that bring up for you just now,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:26:40):
just like the idea that when Gina and I talk about this a lot about the fact that our shame, the things that we think are so shameful and so ugly are the things that connect us to each other in such a deep way that if we can, if we can sort of, um, not deny the fact that we're all connected in this way, especially having gone through the theater school and stuff, but even just human beings that, um, we can take the shame and turn it into something beautiful is, is a huge gift.
Gina Pulice (01:27:19):
Amen. Closer for sure.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:27:21):
Well, thank you guys. This is the greatest thing I'm like now I'm like, wait, wait, our podcast has to be at first. I was like, our podcast is just Dave and John. And then I'm like, okay, that can't be forever. [inaudible]
Gina Pulice (01:27:43):
friends. We will have to have you back. We will have to do a part two and three and four, but thank you so much. It's totally wonderful. And, and, and everything that you write, you said at the beginning, John, that like the stuff comes back, it comes back. Maybe it's 20 years later, maybe it's 30 years later, maybe it's five minutes. But the things that you two have clearly put out into the world are coming back to you in a way that is just makes you shine. And so shine on. That's all I have to say.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:28:18):
Thank you so much. You guys, for allowing us to be here with you together. That's super, super cool. Thank you. Love you. Have a good day. Everybody.
Gina Pulice (01:28:30):
I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.
Intro: Lost Boys, Chapelle's Show, Dianne Wiest, Brian Cox, Hillary and Bill.
Let Me Run This By You: I need to KNOW what your major malfunction is. Compulsive liars, mushrooms.
Interview: We talk to Scott Torrence about raves, feelng famous as a club kid, and surviving Tulsa.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? And then we watched lost boys, which by the way, the lost boys is the lost boys, like from the eighties and that movie. It's hilarious. So in a real way, like there's some comedy gold in that movie that both Myles and I were like, like, look, it's a cheeseball eighties movie, but it holds up.
1 (53s):
There's not, there's no real. I'm trying to think of like, look the thing that Dave, there's no people of color in the movie that sucks. Yeah. But in terms of overtly racial, racist, or sexist, sexist jokes, not, and obviously it's creepy and it's a vampire flake, but it holds up, I was shocked. I thought this is going to be a piece of shit. So what is the thought, how did you arrive at watching this movie? So, okay. So that is such a great, that's a great question in that Myles and I never agree on what to watch ever, ever, ever, ever his idea of like, he wants to watch good things, right?
1 (1m 35s):
Like he wants to watch real stuff. I have to be in a very specific mood to watch real shit. I can't be triggered about anything in any way. I can't, it's really lame. Like I can't, so you're a delicate flower. Yeah. And I think it's also, I just am unwilling to use the brain power and the emotional wherewithal to focus on something that's like really good. So, okay. So which is why I thought lost boys. Right. Cause who cares? But it was so good, but Myles likes to watch, like he wanted me to watch the harder they fall, you know, the new sort of Western on I, I watched a little bit and it was, it was, I thought it was really, really well-written, but it was also Uber violent and Uber, like it was just too much.
1 (2m 23s):
So it didn't. Okay. Chappelle show. Interesting choice. We started watching the first season of Chappelle show. Wow. Wow. No, it is not a shocker that Mr. Chappelle is, is having the problems that he is having. Now, if you go back and watch the show, it's really interesting. And I, I don't know where I fall. I do think that if you kill affordable housing, I hate your guts because those were all of my former clients. And also, and just for humanity's sake. So I hate that. And we talked about that on the podcast. Right. And then, but anyway, so we stumbled upon and I was like, let's watch it pops up on my Netflix feed because why not?
1 (3m 6s):
And, and I was like, all right, let's watch it. And I'm expecting it to be so bad. First of all, Diane weest is a goddamn national treasure. She,
2 (3m 16s):
She really is. She really is. She's such a good,
1 (3m 20s):
Okay. So if I had to pick my, I always play this game, my new parents, my parents are going to be Brian Cox and Diane weest. Yes. I mean, it's, it's going to be very weird, but it, it, that if I quirky, I told you how I met Brian Cox and asked him to be my new dad. Excuse me. It's a lot before,
2 (3m 43s):
After all of the time I've spent talking to you about succession and reading Brian Cox's autobiography.
1 (3m 49s):
I just remembered it. I remembered it when I was talking, thinking about Diane, Diane weest lasted. It was before it was during adaptation that Nick cage made. And I like, I somehow it was, he, he was in a anyway. It doesn't matter. The point is I got to talking to him at a party and I was like, I want you to be my new dad. And at the time my dad was still alive. Right. So, oh, wow. Like, you know what his response was. I get that a lot. And he was serious. He said, people project all this shit onto me.
1 (4m 30s):
I believe
2 (4m 31s):
That makes a lot of sense. Oh, wow. Very interesting.
1 (4m 35s):
Yeah. This is like, before I knew anything about anything and right, right,
2 (4m 39s):
Right, right.
1 (4m 40s):
Oh my God. So we watched the lost boys, all this to say, and we just did it because it was something that we both could agree on that wasn't going to cause me weirdness because I'm weird and it wasn't going to four miles or what ends up happening because I, you know, I was watching about a Canadian cannibal the other night and he's like, I can't watch this before bed. Like, I can't under fair enough. Fair enough. But you know who, the stars of this movie are the true stars. Corey Feldman inquiry, aim pain. Yeah. And the other frog brother, they were Hulu like Cory Ames, Hames, his him, Hey right.
1 (5m 25s):
With age Corey Haim's delivery costumes. Oh my God. The clothing, like from the eighties and his delivery and his, his acting chops, his comedic acting chops are like fucking unparalleled. They're like on par with some deep shit. Anyway. So I that's my recommendation wash the lost boys. I wish there were people of color in it, of course, but
2 (5m 53s):
Maybe they'll do a remake, but that seems to be the way that they, they, you know, fix that well, not to brag, but at my dinner, my mellantine dinner last night, two other very special people were at our same restaurant. Whew. Hillary and bill Clinton. Yes. And it was so moving to see them. It was especially her, him. I'm like, I've changed my tune a little bit about him, but, and she is just as energetic and bubbly and, and kind of course, I didn't want to go up up to them.
2 (6m 36s):
I've never done that, but I've never gone up to a celebrity and said, can I whatever, say hello or take your picture with her. But on the way out, they were seated in such a way that you could sort of see in when, when you left. And I just didn't, you know, I just blew kisses at her and she just, you know, waved her hands and gave me a big smile. It was really, really nice. That is so awesome. We it's okay. We didn't deserve her honestly. Right. We would have, we would've ruined it in one way or another. And then juxtapose that with reading this morning. I don't know how I got on this topic. I start reading about what's happening with Kanye right now.
2 (7m 19s):
It's really sad.
1 (7m 20s):
It's
2 (7m 20s):
Really sad. And why are we still in this place where we, don't not enough of us to know that this is not something to joke about. This is not something to salivate over. Like this person really needs help. And the rich, the Oop, the ultra rich in some ways are in a similar position to the ultra poor when it comes to basic things like, you know, health care, we've talked about it a lot with respect to drugs and all the yes, yes. People that are in celebrities lives that ultimately I think lead to their death, but also the, this issue of mental health going, and I'm sorry, but Brittany Spears seems to be going off the rails too.
2 (8m 1s):
I, I'm not saying that it was right. That she was in that conservatorship, but I think she was on meds that she's not on now. And I'm sorry. I wish it weren't the case that really sick mentally ill people needed to take meds, but they do. They just do there's no, it's just the truth. There's no point in like, quibbling about it.
1 (8m 29s):
All this to say. I have never been in the presence of someone who literally is a compulsive liar. Like I've been around people that, cause this is LA right. Everyone is a blowhard. This person is a pathological compulsive liar. It is so, so, and the reason I bring it up is one to gossip, but to like, right, but to, to talk about this is why, like I was thinking about you, how you posted, how you saw that my name is Anna, right? Like, and how we're writing about Agnes.
1 (9m 10s):
Right? So Agnes, I don't think is a compulsive liar at all, but she's a con person. So there's there's and this person I was around was fascinating. And I actually, once I knew the diagnosis of a person of this person, it, it, it, it settled me. So I find, I don't know if you have this experience where, when I'm around someone and I don't know what their major malfunction is, but there is a malfunction, I am petrified. Right. I'm like, stick me in a room. And someone's like, okay, this person has narcissistic personality disorder with, you know, with, with, with psychotic tendency, whatever it is.
1 (9m 57s):
I'm like, okay, I know what I'm working with. Right. I know what I'm working with. The once her diagnosis, like this is a diagnosis that she's received, right. A personality. But anyway, it put, when I, so I could be in the room or outside with this person and I could say, oh, and this person is so narcissistic. They never listened to our PA, like they, they won't listen to our podcasts. She didn't even really remember who I was in a way in that way. Anyway. So they had a context or whatever. So watching a compulsive liar at work, fascinating, Gina, fascinating.
1 (10m 37s):
Because you can see as I'm, so I'm a kind of a gregarious gal, right? Duh. But like, I am, I like people, but I could see when I was telling a story, I was telling the story about my mushroom use. Right? And so how I tried to drive a car on mushroom, it's a Berry funny and sad and funny story. And it's a true story. Fucking happened to me with Ana Maria, who came from Vashon island and Jeffrey Brown and I, and Ana took mushrooms. You've never told me this story. It's the greatest story ever told. I mean, like you told me that you saw a family and you thought they were calling themselves the large family. That was when I was on acid. So different in solving or something different, different fake.
1 (11m 18s):
So, okay. Went to south America, went to Paraguay for a Migos, gave vaccinations. My partner was on a Maria Ana, Maria. She was from Vashon island off the coast of Seattle on bash on island is a hippie island on the, on the grounds of the police station. Grew hallucinogenic mushrooms. All the kids knew about it. Ana Maria decides I want to come visit you. We, we kind of made friends. I'm going to visit you in Chicago. She fucking brings tons of hallucinogens on the plane at 16 she's 16, I'm 16. But to just to disguise them, she puts them in a huge bag of popery.
1 (12m 1s):
So we don't know what's the mushroom and what's the popery okay. Oh, like just mixed it in. Oh yeah. So here in burping up. Well, so we didn't know Jeffrey Brown, of course. And he's fine talking about this. Cause we've talked about it. Jeffrey Brown is like, I'll do them with you. They were no measurements. There were no, we grabbed handfuls of what we thought were, oh, I was 16. Okay. Fine. It all was fun. We had a good time. It was really gross in my throat. Burned from the popery don't know how many mushroom caps I took probably a lot. Probably like, cause it doesn't take a lot, depending on the phone, it's all fun and games until they were, we, I had to drive home and I was driving my mom's Honda.
1 (12m 46s):
So I get in the car and we're on lake shore drive and I stopped the car and I say on lake shore drive and Ana and Jeffrey, we had dropped Jeffrey off and Jeffrey's like honest, like what are you doing? And I'm like, I have to stop the car because, and she's like, why? And I was like, I gotta be honest. I don't know how this car works. Like I couldn't figure out the mechanics of why it was. I said there's piston pistons involved. And she was like talking. Okay. So it crazy. So I'm stuck on lake shore drive. Right. And you were 16. I mean, there's so many things vulnerable about this attrition and I protein anxiety.
1 (13m 29s):
Right. So that's a whole, so, okay. Finally she's like, and she doesn't drive. Right? She doesn't drive. She's 16. She's never licensed yet. She doesn't know how. I barely know how so it was, she's like you have to pull back on. You have to, I think I probably managed to pull off a little bit and she's like, will you, do you know where you live? She's in a new city. She doesn't, there's no cell phones. And I'm like, I live, I know where I live. I live in Evanston. And so that was good. But then I get back in the car and I'm like, oh my God, Ana, I have bad news. And she's like, oh my God, what? And I'm like, there are people chasing us because the headlights in the bed, I was like, there are a lot of cars chasing us. What do you mean women?
1 (14m 10s):
Yeah. And I was like, oh my God. And so I then started to panic, of course. And I, and I go home and I'm like, my parents are having a fucking dinner party Sunday night. Here's this poor girl who brought drugs on an airplane with me who doesn't know my parents from Adam. I lived with her for two months. They don't know her. So I walk in to the dinner party and I say, I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I've just taken. Apparently I've just eaten a lot of hallucinogenic mushrooms and I'm, I'm freaking out. And my mom goes, oh my fucking God.
1 (14m 52s):
Like she like was pissed off. And my dad just put his head in his hands and was like, I'll talk you down. And so he was lovely. Yeah. It was great. My dad, thank God. He was a psychologist, even though he's fucked up. He had some training in this. So I sat with my dad and talked for, and then they were like, we got it. He's like, you should eat something. So like, they should have ordered it, but they're like, no, let's go to the bagel. And I'm like, okay. So we go. So we all go, my parents and this were this woman who is unknown to us other than now my parents know she's a drug dealer. Right. So we go to the bagel now.
1 (15m 33s):
I don't know what was happening, Gina, but we walk into the bagel and there's a clown and full clown suit behind. And I start hyperventilating and I want to leave. And my mom was like, no, you have to stay like, she's punishing me. Right. So I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. So we say it was like a birthday party or something, but it was like Sunday night. Okay. So we sit down, the waitress comes over to the dinner party. So they all leave. Like it was a bad situation. It was like three other couples crisis teenage crisis. Okay. They leave whatever. All right. So then we go to the bagel and we see the clown or I'm like, oh my God, no, no, no.
1 (16m 16s):
So we set in another area and the waitress comes and literally this is what happened. My mom's like, Hey, the way they were, my mom is like a huge, super dot. And she goes, what's the soup. And the lady goes, oh, cream of mushroom. And then my mom and everybody wraps into laughter. I feel like I'm on, you know, again, tripping. So it was a bad scene. It was a bad scene. And, and I had panic attacks from that from weeks on. So I know that I need to be very careful, but okay. I tell the story for this reason. One, it's a funny story. Yeah. It was my introduction to psychedelics, but too, as I'm telling this story, I see this other person at the party livid and thinking, how can I out story this story?
1 (17m 10s):
Oh shoot. Oh, no, I didn't mean for that. And I thought, oh, of course not. Of course you're not living your life to injure and are looking and looking at me and thinking, you can almost see the wheels turning about like, how am I going to one up the story at this dinner party outside at 8:00 PM. Like, it it's crazy, but there's competition going. And I'm like, and then, so then this person launches into this totally unbelievable, like crazy story about hallucinogens. It was so sad. And I, I wanted to say so many things to this person.
1 (17m 56s):
I said nothing, cause I'm not.
2 (17m 59s):
Yeah. Right. That's, that's their, that's their journey. But did the person whose name we will have bleeped by the time this airs, did that person like say something to you in advance? Or you're just saying you experienced this compulsive liar.
1 (18m 14s):
No, no. They've known, you know, they've known this person forever and it it's the things that this person says is wild. Like we'll say I bought a house and they didn't buy a house. I am going to Greece tomorrow.
2 (18m 30s):
No, no. And, and the person who was having the party is just okay with it because
1 (18m 36s):
My husband chimes in. Cause he's, he's, he's like, why, why the fuck are you friends with this person? And they say, it's like family. It's like this weird. And the answer is, I don't know. And I don't think they know.
2 (18m 50s):
Yeah, right. Anyway, he was like family. I well, and you're right. What you said about when, when you know the context, I like, I have a few friends who, yeah, they, they have diagnosable personality disorders, but knowing this about them and loving them anyway, kind of gets me off the hook of like having to feel bad about it or having to feel worried about it. I mean, yeah. Those are not the people that you're necessarily going to go to with your, every intimacy. Right. But, but to just, just to like, know what brand of crazy you're dealing with can kind of make it because at the end of the day, you know, the only way, not, not that it was anybody's job to change the compulsive layer, but the only way that those people ever do eventually kind of see to a life full of more integrity is not by, I mean, sometimes I guess it's from people abandoning them, but mostly it's from people saying, you know, I love you.
2 (19m 47s):
And I know you're lying to me, you know, which is a hard thing for me, lying is like, is that if I'm, I don't think I've ever said before that I have a trigger, but that's, my trigger is lying. When somebody starts lying to me, I, I well up with such rage and I realize it's my own narcissism. Right? How dare you lie to me? I, you know, like as if it's something they're doing to me, instead of something that they're doing defensively for themselves in the same way that everything I do is defensively for myself. Like it's just a different brand of defense.
1 (20m 25s):
Yeah. It was wild
2 (20m 26s):
That, that recasts my own experiences with that person. Wow. Okay.
1 (20m 34s):
Yeah. And criminal, we've talked about this criminal things. So it's just, it's what it is for me was real reckoning with my own desire. Right. To be something that I am not like, I understand that in my bones. Okay. I guess, I guess like I practice before, like say, what would I say to this person? Cause I thought like if I was to try to quote, help this person, which I'm not going to try to do, but I'm just saying like, okay, well the urge is there to, to compat have compassion.
1 (21m 16s):
This is what I would say, oh, how I get it? This deep down in my bones need to be something I'm not something greater than I'm not than me. Something prettier, something thinner, something more attractive, something smarter, funnier, all the things I know that feeling. So what I grew up with that feeling it's been reinforced and I know it in my bones and I have tried every way I can think of to combat that. And nothing has worked except for the thing that I'm running the most away from, which is the truth.
2 (22m 5s):
Right.
1 (22m 5s):
It's such a fucking catch 22. It's like, so when I tell the truth, I'm so scared sometimes to tell it whether it's, I feel inadequate, I made a mistake. I, whatever it is, I'm feeling less than I feel you're mad at me. I feel all the things. If I don't say that, if I say anything, but the truth, the suffering I experience only gets multiplied.
2 (22m 36s):
And the person who is a compulsive liar in a way you could think about it like being a verbal tick, like if somebody had Tourette's, you know, and, and was an, every other thing they uttered was like an involuntary sound. That's almost how you could think about the compulsive liar. My, the problem that I have is I get into this thing of like, well, if I don't confront your lie, that I'm co-signing it. Which actually is not how it works. Right. I, I'm not in charge of what you say. You, you, you have lies spewing out of your mouth. I mean, that's, that's your problem.
1 (23m 8s):
Right. It's so interesting. And I think it, I think it, it, it, it, it just is. So it's just a fascinating part of human of human. What is it like pathology when stuff gets, and that's the way it manifests, because we just want to be so much sort of more safe and, and special. We want to be safe and special.
2 (23m 39s):
I think it would be like for a person who is so sick with the line, what do you, it would be like for them. I mean, what, I wonder if it's something as simple as like walking through. Okay. So what do you think is going to happen? If you tell the truth? People aren't going to like me. Okay. Well, has it ever occurred to you that people don't like you for not telling the truth? Right. Well, people aren't gonna like you. And then what, you know, because of course the thing is like, the problem is not that other people aren't gonna want you to promise that you don't like yourself. This is, this is my news. Like not pro, not profound, but profound to me, realization about life.
2 (24m 20s):
Is this just like really the whole thing is whether or not you love yourself. Yeah. Right. And when you're talking about relating to other people, loving other people, supporting other relationships, like pretty much RuPaul said it, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love somebody else? It's just what it is. It's like a fact, it's not even really an opinion. And, and, and I, I'm on a journey of figuring out how to love myself. And it's really scary. It's like, I have no idea how this is going to turn out. I don't know, from this. Right. But so far my furtive little steps are turning out great.
2 (25m 3s):
As an example, you know, I was talking to somebody about, I was talking to somebody that I'm in a, you know, that I have a closeness with about prob not even problems, but just, you know, areas of challenge and in the, in the relationship. And for the first time I didn't take this person who was telling me what they are struggling with with me. And I didn't take it personally. I took it like, oh, you're telling me what your struggle is. Okay. I get that. I didn't, I didn't have to take it on, like, as my own person, didn't have to make it about my own ego.
2 (25m 48s):
You know, getting feeling rejected. I could really see. And it, the only thing I can attribute it to is I have somewhat more of a better sense of myself, such that I'm not constantly looking to another person to tell me if I'm good or not. Today on the podcast, we are talking to Scott Torrance. Scott Torres is an actor. You may know him from a film that started many theater school graduates like Sean Gunn and Judy Greer and Lee curves, some called the specials.
2 (26m 33s):
He was also in six feet under and a film called Ray and Buffy. The vampire Slayer. Scott is currently living in his hometown of Tulsa, Oklahoma. He is running his very own hair salon and he is funny and charming and sweet and lovable. So please enjoy our conversation with Scott Torrance, Any race. Oh, okay. Good recording progress. Got it. All right. Scott Torrens. Congratulations. You survived theater school.
3 (27m 7s):
Thank you. By the grace of God,
2 (27m 10s):
Grace of God. No. Wait, did you guys graduate the same year? Right? Because you, Scott was in the class right below mine. And then
1 (27m 21s):
What year did you graduate? 98. Yeah. We were in the same, but listen, but listen, I was so far gone that I don't, I just couldn't even, cause I took a year off that I don't remember. Literally I remember nothing. So, so yeah, they were the same class.
3 (27m 39s):
Okay, awesome. Cause I was trying to rack my brain. I was like, I remember you. I remember you being a year ahead of me, both of you. And then, you know what, to be honest, if I was just gonna blame it on a whole lot of ecstasy that I did for four years, I blown out a lot of brain cells as I there's a lot of things to remember. And a lot of things that I did,
2 (28m 1s):
That's good into it because honestly that I think, I mean, I remember that that is what you were going through or getting into or whatever you want to call it. You were the first person I knew who was like really into rave culture, which I thought was so cool and dangerous and adventurous and exciting. Was that something you were involved in before you came to theater school?
3 (28m 26s):
A little bit. I am from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I was this little gay boy raised by my mom and my aunt. And I knew from the time I knew, I knew once I knew what a big city was, I belonged in. You know, I knew that I never belonged here. And so I just started acting when I, my, my aunt Coco, my crazy aunt, Coco was an actress around town and community theater. And she took me to see Peter pan when I was six. And I fell in love with it because they flew.
3 (29m 7s):
And three years later at the same theater company held auditions. And I was like, I want to play Michael because I want to fly. And I practice and practice audition for it and got called back. And I got that part and the bug bit. And from that point on laser focused, and one of the things that I have, that's a blessing and a curse, I think is I have the ability to get laser focused on something and not stop until I get it. But I usually get laser focused on the wrong things. Be it the rave culture and the club, the club kids. I mean, it was fun, but I, should've probably been focused a little bit more on class.
1 (29m 48s):
Well, I have a question. I think that for me, I don't think there's, I mean, look, I'm not gonna de eh, say your experience. Wasn't valid because it sounds like it, but at least you had fun, right. While the rest of us were like slick. I mean, like tell us what that was like, how did you get into that culture? Because I remember being like, oh my God, these kids are so cool and they're having a fucking blast. Was it fun? First of all,
3 (30m 16s):
It was so much fun. It was too much fun, you know, and coming into the theater school, I knew I wasn't going to be, I knew I was going to be surrounded by people that were better than me. You know, we were all kind of like, I felt like the best of where we came from, you know? So I was prepared to not be the golden child. But what was interesting was I was very curious and I was, you know, dropped into Chicago from Tulsa, Oklahoma. And so I had no fear when I was 18. I mean, I feared the professors, but not Chicago nightlife. And so I just, I went to pro bar one night by myself. I took a class, I waited in line, freezing my ass off for like an hour.
3 (31m 1s):
And then I saw these magical people, like just walk through with these huge platform shoes and this crazy makeup. And I was like, oh my God, I want to beat them. And finally got in and like bought my way to the back of the club where all of these fantastic people were. And I had the nerve to just ask one of them. I'm like, where'd she get those shoes? And I'm like, oh, I have a maid. I was like, where, okay. I like a cobbler or something like that. So I got my dad's combat boots that he gave me. Cause he really wanted me to be a tough guy. And I said, I'll keep these boots. And I took them in and I got six inches of like platform attached, dressed up in these, like these like striped overalls.
3 (31m 49s):
And I had this like matching hat and I wore those shoes and I walked up to the club the next time. And they were like, right, this way you don't have to pay. Like, and from that point on, I felt like I felt famous.
2 (32m 4s):
Never occurred to me until just now that raves or theater. I don't know why that current, till, till you just said it, you made your entrance and with your correct costume on, and then you got the part. Yeah.
1 (32m 18s):
Great. And you were also famous. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the other thing that I've learned from talking to people like you and another guest ed we had on kind of talked about this, that like that and watching documentaries that the club kid thing was a tr a mix of like fashion show meets theater meets like calendula, like D like, so what debauchery, but it's, it's a theater. It was like theater of it meets the fashion shows. It was fantastic.
3 (32m 51s):
I agree. And I also on the, on the touching on the famous part, feeling famous, not having to pay $20 at the time, which was pretty hardcore. I thought to get into anywhere. I was like hobnobbing with like a Dennis Rodman in the VIP lounge was totally, he was totally hot now. He's not anymore. Billy Corgan. I mean, I was hanging with these like stars. So I felt famous. I remember talking to Billy Gorgon. I was as tall as he was, because it was six inches on this five, seven foot body we were face to face and he like, where'd you get those shoes? They're pretty cool. And I'm like, oh my God, I love you so much.
3 (33m 33s):
Like, it was just, it was magical. But I was also like, I was so wrapped up that it got me into some like, kinda like bad situations. And do you mean like dangerous situations? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. So did you guys remember the seven minute rule? Like if you were late seven minutes, the door would close and then if the door closed three times you were completely kicked out of school. It didn't matter if it was like last semester, senior year, three times you're out. And from what I remember, our credits wouldn't transfer.
3 (34m 14s):
So they put the fear of God in us to like, make it on time, which I agree with. Like, I think, you know, time is money. I've never really had a problem with being prompt, but there was one night that, okay. So I had bill Burnett for voice and speech. I think it was our second year. And I just could not with him. I would just say
1 (34m 40s):
I got in a fight with him in class where I stormed out, because he's told me I had, I was a chicken necking and that I did this too much. And then I looked like a chicken and I couldn't take it because, and I just stormed out that motherfucker. I never liked him. Well,
3 (34m 55s):
He just put me to sleep and granted, I probably wasn't on any sleep, you know, going into that class. But I risk, I risked it, that biscuit and I just skipped twice. I was like, I can't, I can't, but I won't miss the third time. Now this is kind of a dark sword, but I went to so Tuesdays and Wednesdays in Chicago where like the nights that like weren't ethic and back then, and I remember just going to this gay bar and boys town just to have some drinks. And I remember all of a sudden waking up in the emergency room with restraints on my arms and legs and a catheter.
3 (35m 37s):
And I was like, I had no idea how he got there. I was like, what happened? And finally the doctors came in and said, you know, you were fighting us. We were trying to have, and I, I don't remember. I don't, I'm total blackout. And you guys, I've never laid a singer on anyone in my life, but they said it was a possible GHB overdose or roofie overdose. So someone bought me a drink the one night that I just went out to just have like a couple of drinks, not like eat a bunch of eggs to see, and like, you know, dance still done anyway that morning. If I hadn't gotten out of that and gotten to build Burnett's class, I would have been kicked out.
3 (36m 22s):
So after they removed the catheter, sorry, this is Jolene. It was, it was very, very painful. And they took the restraints off. I was like, I have to get to Bill's class or I'm going to get kicked out. And I gained my Ivy out of my arm. I like dress as fast as I could. I ran. Cause I feel like it was really close to the theater school that ER, I ran to his class and I got in there in time. I was mortified, but I was like, I can't miss this class. Like I can't or I'll be kicked out. So yeah. Does
2 (36m 59s):
That mean you don't know what happens to you that night?
3 (37m 2s):
I don't. I, I don't think because the guy that I went with supposedly like just like dropped me off. But anyway, I don't believe that anything happened to me. I think that I was trying to fight maybe because I was like in a blackout that I felt like people were like trying to undo my clothing, but it was probably like the nurses and the doctors and stuff, you know?
2 (37m 30s):
Right. Oh my
3 (37m 31s):
Dad, it was nuts. And I think about it now and I'm like, oh my God, that really was fucked up. But you know what? I made it to Bill's class. And I been,
2 (37m 40s):
How old were you? Eight? Was that our second year? So 19
3 (37m 44s):
Funnier, 1920.
2 (37m 47s):
Oh my God. Well, I'm really sorry that happened to you. I'm really glad that nothing, nothing terrible happened to you. But I wanted to jump just back to the thing that you said in the beginning about feeling famous, because that is what my, I wouldn't have occurred to me until you said it, but that is my impression of you like that. You not in a jerky way, but that you were, it seems, you seem very self-possessed to me. Well, and for sure you had a life outside of school, which many of us didn't, so that was sort of like intriguing, but overall it does seem like you have a lot of grit as a person.
2 (38m 28s):
Would you say that's true?
3 (38m 30s):
I definitely did. Back then. I had kind of had no fee, well, I had all the fear in the theater, but, but yeah, there was, I don't know. I, you know, I think it's that like invincibility thing when you're younger, you know, the older you get, the more, or for me, the older I get, the more I'm I cherish, you know, I, I think about what I have. Like, I don't just, I don't ride brides on rollercoasters anymore. Like the last time, I mean, I went to Hawaii a few years ago with my family and my mom, like I kept being told, like take the helicopter tour is magical. It's it is a religious religious experience. I was like, so looking forward to, well, my mom booked for whatever reason, book the helicopter with the doors off you guys, it was like an hour long panic attack.
3 (39m 17s):
Like my nails dug it into my mom was like, I was like, make it stop. This is horrible. And then when it was over, I was like, when did I become a web? Like when did I? But I think it comes with age, right.
2 (39m 28s):
It totally does. I was just talking to somebody about this the other day. Oh, it was about skiing. I was talking about, about skiing. I'm saying like, I just can't ring this bell of knowing people die from skiing, like from kind of minor, sort of you make one false move and you're just dead. And just seems like not a, not a way to, it's not worth it in terms of a way to go. If you're going to take a danger, take a risk, it should be like really, really worth it. But you, so is it right to say that the thing you sort of regret or feel badly about with the partying and school, is that you, that you might've almost gotten kicked out or did you, was it, was there more to it than that?
3 (40m 16s):
I don't think I regret it. I mean, I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but like I had to be somewhat talented to like roll into like Shakespeare class, no pun intended roll into Shakespeare class and do some Shakespearians on it after coming straight from after hours, like on no sleep, like, I don't know how I did it, but somehow I did it and I also came out, you know, alive that God, I had a girl in my class that something really horrible happened to. And I don't know if we, I don't know if we can bleak names.
3 (40m 57s):
Do you guys remember like names, like, remember who I'm talking to? So that could have happened to me. You know what I mean? Like I put myself not to say that she did anything wrong at all, but you know, that could've happened to me, you know? And
2 (41m 13s):
For the grace of God
3 (41m 14s):
There, before the grace of God out,
1 (41m 16s):
Did you make, were there a bunch of kids at, in our class, in our school that, that you went with? I remember some, but like, did you, or did you have two totally separate groups of friends?
3 (41m 28s):
So starting out, I remember listening to Noel's podcasts with guys and I heard her say I was sitting around at a friend's place and I'm like, let's go to a club. But I think she was talking about me because Noel was hot and I is beautiful. She's gorgeous. And I was like, well, that'll help me get into this club. And we were friends, you know? And so she was like happy, like hanging out in the VIP room. Whereas I was ex to see did something to my body. It made me dance all night long without stopping. And so I started dropping all this baby weight. And so there was another part of it, which was body image.
3 (42m 9s):
You know, I was as chunky monkey my whole life. And then I just started dropping weight, like crazy because I was dancing literally all night long.
1 (42m 19s):
Yeah. You literally were doing cardio for 12 hours at a time, right?
3 (42m 24s):
Yeah. Well, yes, yes, totally. I could ring my jeans out, my big old raver jeans that I got in a lot of trouble out of theater school for wearing. Cause they said that, you know, we can't see your full movement. I could ring those with. So, I mean, it was, it was like hot yoga for 12 hours, but like, or Zumba.
1 (42m 45s):
So what, w w why and when, and how did the party at,
3 (42m 50s):
So not till later on? Not till, honestly, not till after, so, okay. So I never felt like the golden child at the theater school. I don't know if any of us said, although listening to these podcasts, like some of the people that I thought were golden, they didn't, they didn't, you know, we all have this similar experience where it's like, oh, you were scared too. Oh, wow. I had no like, Hey, you guys are scared. I thought everybody loved them. Yale. The, the only real feedback like that I had that was positive from any teachers were John Jenkins and Jane Jane alderman.
3 (43m 36s):
And I know that's not, I haven't heard a lot of that on this podcast, but, and I almost had kind of like imposter syndrome in her class because I was like, well, she hasn't seen my work all four years. So like I, and I felt like that was kind of competitive, like pretty competitive, but grade.
1 (43m 56s):
It was very weird, very
3 (43m 58s):
Weird. Especially the girls. Like I didn't get, you know, like I didn't get a lot of, I don't, I didn't feel the same heat from the guys as I did from some of the girls. But anyway, so I had a really amazing, it's weird. Like I had the most amazing showcase experience ever. I think I was blown away. I couldn't believe it.
1 (44m 25s):
This is a great story because I'm obsessed with showcase stories and they've all been horrific. It pretty. So can you tell us your experience? I'm so excited.
3 (44m 35s):
I would love to. Okay. So I was like freaking out about a monologue. Didn't know what to do, but Jane, you know, Jane was just, she was just kind of, you know, she didn't favor me. I didn't believe she was just kind. And she was like, just ask Zack helm to write your monologue. So I reached out to Zach who I'd never, I mean, we weren't really friends. I mean, I knew who he was, but I got his number. I called him and he said, okay, I want you to make me a mix tape and send it to me. And I'm like, okay. He's like, don't think about it. Just make me a mix tape, send it to me. And so I did, and he wrote me this monologue and it wasn't, I think this is important for actors that are about to graduate.
3 (45m 24s):
It wasn't a character. It wasn't, I wasn't playing anybody else. It was me ranting on stage. I walked out and I just was going off about what really pisses me off in the world. And, and so I lucked out with that Chicago showcase. I was one of those, I walked off stage and I was like, I have no idea what that was. You know, that was an out-of-body experience. I don't know if that went well, then we go to LA and it was like, all the stars aligned you guys. Like, I cannot even tell you, I got out there. I like started into this laughter started happening. And I was like, okay, I've got these people in my pocket.
3 (46m 6s):
So I just go on and on and rant and rave. And I got a fucking standing ovation shut. I'm not kidding you. I could not believe it. I was like, is this real? This can't be real. Like it did that. Did I imagine that? And then I remember afterwards,
1 (46m 21s):
Oh my God, this is the greatest thing I've ever heard.
3 (46m 25s):
It was one of the best moments of my entire life. Rick Murphy walks up to me and he's like, well, someone did well this evening. And I was like, oh my God. And then Jane called me into her hotel room and she sat me down and she goes, okay, look, listen, I want you to know that you have more interest than Judy Leonard or Mike Moody combined. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? She's like, no. So I need you to go home and get some, or go to your hotel room, go night night, because you are booked like this entire time. So I don't know what everybody else did. But I took meeting after meeting, after meeting, after meeting, then one of the
1 (47m 7s):
Interrupt, can I interrupt you? Because I just have a question. What was that I have where you like, my whole life is about to ch like I am now a star. Cause I would be like, Hey mom, I'm never coming home. Like I'm now fucking a star.
3 (47m 22s):
I couldn't, I couldn't believe it. I honestly felt like I was dreaming the whole time. I was like, oh, just my dreams are coming true. And I of all people me, like, because I just felt really not, I don't know. I just, I was never, I felt like I was never really liked by most teachers, you know? And I don't think they knew what to do with me casting what? I didn't, I couldn't picture me in a lot of things. Like I couldn't see a clear picture of where I belonged in the business.
1 (47m 50s):
It's so interesting. I think you hit LA and LA hit you at a time where you said the stars aligned, but they were looking for something and that something was you like, that is the clear thing of like perfect match and perfect time for that. Anyway. It's just so it's such, I'm so intrigued. Keep going, keep going.
3 (48m 14s):
No, I agree with you. So then I, then every, so I think people were there for two days. Maybe I didn't see anybody. Cause I was just, it was one meeting after the other. And then I was told I needed to stay a day later because there was this audition for this movie called rave. And I was like, okay. So everybody else flew back to Chicago. And I had to stay in the hotel room by myself and I got the sides to the script and I was like, oh my God, I'm going to audition for a movie in Hollywood tomorrow. And by the way, all the meetings that I took, they were like, go back to Chicago, get your sad card and then move out here. That was like, basically what everyone said, go back to Chicago, get your sad card, move back here.
3 (48m 59s):
So I go to this audition by myself. First of all, it's hard as fuck to find a cab in LA coming from Chicago. I was like, how the hell am I going to get there? But I figured it out. I went, I auditioned for it. I didn't really know how I did flew back to Chicago. And then I found out that I booked, I booked it and I was like, wow,
1 (49m 22s):
Are you fucking kidding?
3 (49m 26s):
Not totally true. And I wasn't sag. And so they did something called a Taft-Hartley, which I don't know. I think that I should probably look that up, but it's like waves of magic wand and now you're. Yeah. So I graduated and then two weeks later flew to Los Angeles. I moved in with so Zack helm, Kate McKinnon, Kat Phillips, Ellen, Mel's Jeff you'll Terman. We're all living in this huge house in Korea town. And they're like, we would love to have you as a roommate. And I'm like, that's great because I have no idea where the hell I'm going or what I'm doing.
3 (50m 9s):
I flew in $5 to my name. Oh, in saffron. Don't let me forget. Saffron also lived at that house, went to sleep, woke up and I think it was Kate or Zach that drove me to set the first day. Cause mean, I didn't know directions. I didn't have a car. And I started shooting this movie and it was just totally unbelievable.
1 (50m 31s):
I have to just say this whole thing is unbelievable, but like, can I ask you, like when you're sitting in these meetings, because you were like, what, how old were
3 (50m 39s):
You? I was 21.
1 (50m 42s):
So you're sitting in these meetings with people. Were you able to like, do you think here's what I'm making up? Okay. And I could be wrong. Like all your stuff with like the club scene where you have to pretend and dress up and like you, and you're already famous, kind of, do you think that helped prepare you for these meetings in terms of feeling like you deserved to be there?
3 (51m 4s):
I don't know if, no, but you know what it did teach me like hanging out with all those club kids. When I got the, the sides to that movie, I was like, I know this guy. I argued with this guy. I mean, I, it just felt like I could totally do this. And there weren't a lot of parts. I did bomb and Gilliad with John Jenkins, my second year as an intro where I got to wear my stacks in that, in that thing. And I got to be this like over the top, flaming, like hooker boy, not to say that, you know, but I, I had something to base that off of, you know what I mean?
3 (51m 45s):
So that was really fun. Rave kind of just like fell. Right? I mean, it was, again, it was luck. It was like winning the lottery stars aligned. I party with this character before, so I know how to play him. And, but, but they a lot. So the agency that I liked the most, they still wouldn't sign me. They were like, this doesn't happen. So, but we still like use, so we're going to hit pocket you and we're going to send you out on auditions. And I was like, okay. And they're like, and get ready to not work. And I was like, okay. And I didn't feel entitled. I mean, I felt like I was just lucky, like right place, right.
3 (52m 26s):
Time stars aligned. And they started sending me out on auditions. And then I remember going to an audition that they said, you know what go, you just need to go meet this casting director because she just want to award for buggy nights. And I was like, cool. Okay. And I went in and Sean Gunn was in the room and his brother was in the room. And I, it was like a two liner for this movie called the specials and Judy was in it and, and Sean was in it. And so I walk in and I do the two lines. They're like, did you Goodman? And I said, yes, I shared it. And they're like, thanks. And then I get a phone call for me. You booked it, come in and sign the papers.
3 (53m 8s):
Like you're signed, let's do this. And I was like, yes. So that paid off because connections. Right. Like knowing people, right? Like the theater school was a connection for me in that room. Little did I know then? But the gum brothers, how like amazing. Right. But, but
1 (53m 25s):
Yeah, you, you hit the ground clearly running like clearly. So you just, could, we never talked to anybody that literally has had this experience where you, your showcase went so well, that you basically just stayed, you, you, you, you moved to LA and you had an agent and everything, but I want to say, how was it shooting the rave movie? Just not knowing how to make movies? Like how did you do that?
3 (53m 56s):
Well, I learned very quickly that you know, the camera's right in your face. So I got, you know, I first day they were like tone it way down, dude. Like, camera's right here, you know, don't act for the back of the house. And I also was getting cues from my fellow actors. We were, I think the first scene, we were all like laying in bed after like this raid goes terribly wrong. And one of our friends Odis, and we're talking about like, is she going to be okay? And I'm like, she'll be fine. And they'll know like, listen, and the other two actors were like whispering and, and we were whispering in bed. I was like, oh right. Yeah, the camera is like right here.
3 (54m 38s):
Okay. I got, I got clocked by a couple of directors for just being too big. I did an episode about the, the vampire Slayer. And I, I was this half, this kid that blows himself up with a bomb and he's half zombie, half burned victim and comes back to wreak havoc on the high school. And I, all this makeup, it took like four hours to get into this makeup. And I would practice in my trailer and I'm like, and I did these nervous ticks and stuff for this job. I mean, I got called in like five times for this part, which was just like one episode. But I had, it was this nerdy guy with these ticks. So I was like, you can't really see what I'm doing in this makeup again.
3 (55m 18s):
I was just told you, bring it down, like stop being so extra. Like, we'll see you. And I'm like, got it. Okay. Gotcha. But yeah. Well, Scott,
2 (55m 29s):
At the risk of sounding like a terrible television movie, and then what happen because you got all this, what happens?
3 (55m 38s):
So the thing is I got really close to a lot of pilots. I would go in tests for network and it would always need it to me. And one other person, another person, and every single time it didn't work out. I would cry. Like I would, I would be devastated. And then, then I would go to work with like the swollen red face. Like I get red and splotchy anyway, I would get red and slushy walking into auditions that was before I knew anything about beta blockers, but Hey guys, if you're out there auditioning and you turn red as a beet, if you feel any sort of beta blockers can be a big help, but I was tired of crying. I was tired of having my heart broken.
3 (56m 18s):
I mean, and I feel like Larry Bates said on this podcast, confidence is everything. And I can, I cannot agree more when I would book a job, then I would be confident and that would lead to three more jobs. And then I wouldn't, and I wouldn't work for a year or more, you know, and then I would get so close. So close every single time. Nope. Nope. And my I'm S I'm a sensitive guy. Like I think I was like born with like an extra like dose of emotions and I was just tired of crying and having my heart broken. And I had had my, my laser focused on being a movie star from the time I was nine years, six years old, honestly.
3 (57m 2s):
And there was no plan B. It's so funny when my mom dropped me off at DePaul, she was like, you know, you could go to beat beauty school and like, learn how to do that. So you can cut hair in the dorms to make money. I'm like, there's no plan B. Like I'm going to be a movie star. That's all there is to it. Well, that's what I do now. I own my own hair salon. So she, you know, but it all worked out the way it was supposed to, but basically I stopped because I was like, is there anything else in this world that will make me happy because I am miserable right now. I'm tired of crying every day. You know, you're selling yourself, they're telling you, you know, there's only so much rejection that I could take at that time.
3 (57m 45s):
So
1 (57m 46s):
Where you, where you still did you feel like you had a community out here in LA or no? Like, did you, or, and also where did the raving continue in LA? Yeah.
3 (57m 56s):
Prior to that? Yeah. So I was also suffering from like, I don't know if this is stage fright or a mixture of stage fright and drugs, but anytime I would get, you know, like I would go out for something that I got really excited for. I remember they were casting this gate character on Dawson's Creek. And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. I couldn't remember the lines you guys. And it was, it wasn't, you know, pages and pages, but I just, I was psyching myself out. I did better at auditions on things that I didn't know really a whole lot about. But yeah, I, so I, I think it was a mixture of partying and also just kind of like being set up and I couldn't remember the lines and there's nothing more humiliating than, you know, that's like the bait, you know, you guys know when they're like, listen, remember those lanes,
1 (58m 53s):
I have the same thing. And so I was diagnosed. It's like, my therapist literally thinks that what happens is that it is, it's obviously anxiety, but it's also, there is some kind of shame, fear of shame that happens that becomes so large shame of not remembering shame of not doing well enough. This is for me. I don't know if this resonates with you, but like, and she was like, it is. And then the brain literally shuts down and, and goes into, I will protect you at all costs, which means all of my resources have to go into like, basically keeping you in your body and who gives a shit about copy written by some dude in a room like you now are in survival mode.
1 (59m 43s):
So that's, it's panic, it's, it's panic and it's fear of humiliation and it it's real. And it, and it has really debilitated me as an actor and I'm still working through it.
3 (59m 56s):
Yeah. Can I just tell you both, I'm so obsessed with you, both, like, are you, did you both become therapists at some point? Because this, I, I, I, I so wanted to, I'm a huge, huge fan of therapy, huge and endorsed it, love it will go for the rest of my life. And there's a part of me that wishes, gosh, you know, if there weren't so much school and if I wasn't 46, like I would love because it's fascinating to me. And I think you're absolutely right, Jen. I think that, you know, it was like, I remember, okay, there's really, really bad, bad show on MTV TV.
3 (1h 0m 37s):
It was called undressed. And it was this really bad soap opera. And I, and it was really bad acting. But then when I got on, on set, I was like, oh, it's really bad acting because they're giving everybody line readings. Like, they're telling you to say it just like this and I forgot my lines. I kept forgetting my lines. They were getting so frustrated with me. And I was like, I didn't know that I could never ask questions. Like, I was always scared to ask for what I wanted. Like I just was like, I don't know, just, oh, sorry. I'm bouncing all over the place. But Christine Goodman said something so amazing. And in her podcast about how the whole MFA's, they looked at it as like, I'm paying you to learn that blew my mind.
3 (1h 1m 26s):
Like if I went in with that, just, just with a notion of that, like, oh my God, I, I taught, I mean, she just, I love her so much, but I wish that I had thought that a little bit more. And I mean, that's not the case when you're working on set, but you know, in Hollywood they're paying you to do a job, but like what Lee paid those, those professors to teach us. And I feel like some of the things that I don't know, th their behavior, I think sometimes we wouldn't fly today. I'll tell you that
1 (1h 1m 57s):
Right now. Well, no, it wouldn't.
2 (1h 2m 0s):
Well, you probably know boss and I are kind of big into this idea that like, when success doesn't happen to people or it doesn't happen in the timeline that they want or whatever, it's often for the best, because you know, like I've said to her, if she hadn't made all of these terrible choices, basically turning down opportunities that were coming her way left and right. She might have found herself fit successful and not able to handle and kind of blow it up. And like, you know, I mean, I'm using her your words positive. They use I'm like, I probably would have ended up dead.
2 (1h 2m 40s):
Oh, I would have been dead. Yeah. So Scott, do you think that that's kind of, there were some, yeah, that's what I thought. That's what I thought
3 (1h 2m 50s):
I would've pulled a Lindsey Lohan. I would've, I would've ended up dumpster. Yeah, no. I mean, so I, I truly believe that, like, I, I I'm so happy that I did it, you know, I it's, I don't, I think you'll only regret the things you don't try, the things you don't do, but then there's also this part of me, I'm not gonna lie that, you know, the love never goes away that I, I don't wanna say it's an empty hole that, you know, I do hear now, it's very creative. I own my own salon. It's just me and my clients. And, you know, we all, I think everybody puts on their work face or, you know, whatever, but it's nice to be able to be adaptable and, and entertain while you're doing, you know, whatever.
3 (1h 3m 38s):
But you guys have been such an inspiration. This podcast has been such an inspiration for me because you guys got my creative juices flowing. That, that part that I have, not that hasn't been full in 24 years, you know, like I'm, I am like, I'm like, I'm going to do a podcast. I, you guys
2 (1h 3m 58s):
Do it, do it.
1 (1h 4m 1s):
We're doing a documentary. Or we're planning to do a documentary on the theater school times. And you will be in that documentary. So
2 (1h 4m 11s):
Road trip, road, trip to Tulsa, you're in Tulsa, right?
3 (1h 4m 15s):
Buckle on the Bible belt.
2 (1h 4m 16s):
Okay. Now, yeah. That's what I was going to ask you about. Like, what's it like to live in Oklahoma when you're not the most traditional person?
3 (1h 4m 24s):
Right. So, I mean, if you told me, you know, you're going to move back to Tulsa one day and you're going to find your husband and you're going to be content. I would have been like, you're smoking crack. Like there's no way in hell. You couldn't pay me enough money. What, what, what, what person, what, what, what any sort of minority, why would you choose to live in this horrible red state? Right. But, you know, I really lucked out there's good people and bad people, wherever you go. And the pandemic, I actually had a silver lining with the pandemic. I was working at a competitive salon, kind of like the theater school.
3 (1h 5m 5s):
I don't know why I'm drawn to those kinds of things, but pandemic happened. And I have, my mom has a heart patient. She had triple bypass at 42. So she's immune compromised. My husband is immune compromised. And then there's me that just tends to catch every cold that's out there. And I was trying to rack my brain during lockdown. Like, how do I do my job? Six feet away from someone like, I have to be like, I have to touch you. Like I have to cut your bangs and basically in your mouth, what I'm kind of like, how am I going to do this? And I, I, I took this, this pandemic very seriously because I, I have so many loved ones that it wouldn't be good if they got it.
3 (1h 5m 48s):
So I just decided to take a chance and open my own salon where it's, COVID, it's basically, COVID free and people have to be like fully vaccinated and show me their card. And I have air purifiers. We wear masks. It's just a single room with me and my client one at a time. And what's so wild is I thought I was going to shoot myself in the foot. When I said, you have to be vaccinated or else I can't take you, but there are all these unicorns, all over Tulsa, Oklahoma, they come to me and honestly, business is booming. It's never been better. And it's wonderful because it's just me and it's, it's very private.
3 (1h 6m 29s):
We don't have to worry about, we can talk politics as loud as we want, because there's nobody sitting next to us. Like, you know, looking at us up and down or telling us we're wrong. Or so there are good people here and they're all my clients.
2 (1h 6m 45s):
And by establishing those boundaries, you created the unicorn club where everybody can, is drawn to you because you've established from the outset, what your thing is. And that makes people understand what is, and isn't tolerated by you. And then that makes, that draws all the right people to you.
3 (1h 7m 3s):
And I will say, I will tell you, I don't think I'll ever work for anyone ever again. Like, I don't think I'll ever have a boss ever again. I mean, I I'll work with someone at least in the hair world, but oh my God. Being your own boss, you guys is the best. I highly recommend it.
1 (1h 7m 21s):
So, Scott, how did you end up? So what was the transition like leaving LA? Like, did you, did you go out in a fi like me in a fiery blaze of driving drunk into a swimming pool? Or like, did you,
3 (1h 7m 34s):
I, you know, again, like, I'm very lucky that I, I moved to New York. So when I quit, I was so I decided, I was like, okay, I'm done with, with acting for a while. I'm going to take some time off. And then I was like, well, why am I living in Hollywood? I've always wanted to live in New York. So I moved to New York partied and worked retail for four years. It was kind of tired of being like a broke college student. And I'm like, well, let's go back to LA where at least it's a little bit easier. And the weather's nice. And I went back to LA this whole time, by the way, never sucked partying. Right. And I got to the point where I was like, you know, I don't think that I can be here. It's too triggering for me to go out and dance.
3 (1h 8m 15s):
And it graduated from ecstasy to speed. And I was a functioning addict, but I was like the only way I'm going to be able to not get fired from work. And I, I really just wanted like two months to sleep, to catch up. So I went to rehab, which was one of the best things I ever did. And I learned that I am a drug addict, but I'm not an alcoholic because drinking was never my thing. It's still really kind of, not my thing through lockdown. I will say. I mean, I was guilty of maybe pouring a martini at like 10:00 AM, because I felt like we were all living in Vegas and nobody had any idea what day or time it was.
3 (1h 8m 58s):
But, but yeah, no, so I can socially drink and that's fine. But I just was like, I'm going to die if I stay here. And my mom got divorced from my stepdad and I wanted to come back to Tulsa to check on her. It was, I was like three months. That's it? And then it was weird. Like growing up here, there was nothing happening. And coming back here, I think I changed, but also to also change a little bit for the better. So like the best nightclubs, like the best shopping. No, not here, but that's not the most important to me. And like the traffic's not bad here. The cost of living is real cute here. And I met my husband here on grinder, by the way, Gina,
2 (1h 9m 44s):
I love that. That's beautiful. I mean, you guys, what would it take? I'm just thinking about your experience there. Like they built you all the way up the first day you got to LA it couldn't go any higher than that. You got to stay an extra day. You gotta to your meeting after meeting. Well, you know, P people like me and boss are like going to the beach and whatever is she wasting her time in LA because we were getting any minis. So everybody loved, you got a standing ovation, you got Rick Murphy to say you did great. And then it was a process after, you know, some sex successes of getting jobs. Then it was a process of like tearing you down. When if there could have been a way for you to tolerate or survive the rejection, you might've stayed and had like a sane career.
2 (1h 10m 33s):
I think that's the problem is like, there's no sane career. It seems like, and you like either go balls to the wall and, and burn, you know, crash and burn, right? Like, so what would it take to have an environment that was even just 10% more psychologically minded? I mean, I'm interested to pause to what you have to say about that.
1 (1h 10m 58s):
Well, I think it would take each so interesting. It's such a business for me anyway, that thrives on youth. Right? And, and, and when we're young, our brains aren't fully formed. So you've got weird ass people running around doing weird ass shit and their brains aren't formed. So I think it would have to, for me with literally have to take us embracing the knowledge and wherewithal of people as they get older and not so much capitalizing on youth because you don't know shit and we can't know anything. So when you're youth centric industry, it's, it's a mess.
1 (1h 11m 39s):
So what, what, what I would say is like D what would it, what it's going to take is people to say, oh, wait, people of all ages of all races of all can have careers. And I think then it becomes less of a, like, I have to capitalize on what is hot right now, right now, because later is not going to be so hot. It would take a more holistic view of like the human experience. And I there's so much money involved. I'm not sure. And I think coming back at 46 and doing this, and I'm not really trying to be an actor, but as a writer, I'm seeing that, like, you kind of have to go away from like 25 to 40 and come back to LA, if you're going to do it,
2 (1h 12m 22s):
Dude, that I just had this image, like it's, it's LA has kind of run like, like porn. Like, it's all about, like, what's going to get you off, like in five seconds, instead of anything beyond what's going to happen in five seconds. And there's a, there's like a short term memory problem. There's a 'cause I think you described by the way about being the, you know, the thing of the moment, whatever Sean said, the same thing Shawn said, I think that I was able to do what I was able to do, because I just had a particular look at a particular time when they were just looking for my look, you know?
2 (1h 13m 2s):
And that's important for, to, to say again to people out there, like, if you don't succeed, you can't necessarily say it's because of your talent. It really could be like, it's just not the, it's just not your moment. Your Hollywood is not having the you moment right now. It might have had it 10 years ago. It might have it in 10 years. It's just not right now.
3 (1h 13m 26s):
Amen to that. I, I fully agree with you on that. And, and what I love now is that, you know, everyone's writing, it's like, I remember my agency said, you know, you're just not like anybody else. So we're just going to send you out on the everything and which I was that's cool. But like, I would get sent out for like football players. And I was like, Hmm, I don't seem I'll, I'll go. Cause you're telling me to, but I, and I was too scared to say, I don't, you know, I really don't see myself doing this, but yeah, I, I love now how, you know, and, and back in the day, like, I feel like the only thing, like gain gay characters and not that I wanted to always play gay characters, but I have this voice.
3 (1h 14m 9s):
Okay. I came out. I mean, you can, at pictures of me when I'm three years old, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know, you know, that I am a gay man. And so I just, I, I love now that people are of all, I, I don't know, ethnicities are every like will and grace was the only thing that I saw. You know what I mean? So I love, I love that, that now there's so much representation. I think that's wonderful. And I, I love that. And I'm still like, if you want it right at yourself, you know, like what you guys are doing, kind of, right. Yeah.
1 (1h 14m 49s):
I would venture to say that Scott, don't be, I don't think you're done with acting yet. I have this really strange that you're going to, is there, is there any work in Oklahoma, like film and TV wise?
3 (1h 15m 6s):
I, so people ask me all the time when they find out that I had this other life, other career, why don't we do it anymore? And I'm like, you know, I just feel like theater wise, the theater school sort of ruined me as far as like watching community theater, because I cannot turn off that I can't turn off that, that, that critical, you know, that we got taught for four years. Well, I didn't see the weather. I didn't, you know, I didn't see, you know, where they were coming from. Like that the, my aunt is still, she still direct. Like she directs Christmas Carol every year here in Tulsa.
3 (1h 15m 46s):
And she asked me to come to final dress and she was interested in, in my notes. And I was like, okay. And after the first act ended, I opened up my big squirrel and she's like, okay. And I'm like, okay. So first of all, British accents, like, let's just get, let's just get rid of them. Because half the people sound like they are challenged. And she's like, you know, I don't want to hear any more. I don't want to hear any more. I'm like, and you know, they're doing it. They're not professionals that I did it up until I went to DePaul. I mean, they're doing it because they love it. They're doing it because it's fun. But that critical note-taking eye is hard for me to shed that I learned.
3 (1h 16m 27s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 16m 28s):
Yeah. Film and TV
3 (1h 16m 30s):
There. Supposedly. Yes. Supposedly. I mean, they filmed the movie here with Leonardo DiCaprio. It's a Martin Scorsese movie. I'm going blank on the name. It's about don't look up.
1 (1h 16m 43s):
Oh, no, that wasn't Martin's per se.
3 (1h 16m 46s):
Did it already come out? No, not yet. No. It's it's about native native American. I really, I can't remember. I'm going blank right now, but yeah, things do happen here, here and there. And I keep being told by my aunt that there's like a new casting director. That's coming to Tulsa and Tulsa is going to be this new, that dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, maybe I love your podcast. I love you too. You too have like, just nailed it. I mean, I live for this thing. I would love to at least do not, not least I would love to do a podcast. I would love to like salon confessional or, you know, hair happy.
3 (1h 17m 29s):
Like people open up to me so much
1 (1h 17m 32s):
Therapy is perfect.
2 (1h 17m 33s):
That's amazing. And we can produce it on our, this is, you know, we have had in mind for a long time that we would have other podcasts under this umbrella. Seriously, let's talk, let's talk about it because did you come up with that? That's amazing,
1 (1h 17m 49s):
Dude. We got to do it. We'll help you. We'll help you.
3 (1h 17m 53s):
I need your help. You, you ladies are brilliant. And I would love that. That would be, that would be filling the hole that I, you know, it's been,
2 (1h 18m 1s):
It's done. It's done. You're going to do it. It's done. I think you'd be fantastic on a podcast. Yeah.
1 (1h 18m 10s):
I was going to say also like, until that happens, like we could also have you, you know, we have the, let me run this by you segment with just us. So we could have you as our like third, once in a while, let, let us run. And you could talk about like the hair puppy on our podcast. Like
3 (1h 18m 25s):
You don't, you can't see me right now, but I'm doing a literal toe touch right now. Okay. Well now
1 (1h 18m 33s):
I'm like, shit, you better really get, get on the pole what's going on. But yeah, no. Yeah. So we'll talk. We'll talk. But I mean, cause, cause this has been, I mean, L like hearing how we, for me, I wanted to participate in this podcast so that people could know what it takes to survive a hard thing and know they could, that's like how I wanted the stories. That's how it started. And now what has become for me is leaving a legacy for people to see that there is not one way to be successful. That success is a very, a very multilayered thing.
1 (1h 19m 13s):
And that sometimes things happen for a reason and sometimes they don't. But yet here we are.
4 (1h 19m 33s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Boz's brain hurts, Ozark, the ordinariness of crime, drug running in Tijuana, Molly, Jerry Harris and Season 2 of Cheer, unpleasant surprises
Let Me Run This By You: I didn't do anything wrong.
Interview: We talk to Carolyn Hoerdemann about Steppenwolf's From The Page to The Stage, John C. Reilly, tenacity, hyper-empaths, Oscar Wilde's fairy tales, Tarrell Alvin McCraney, feminist theatre, Pump Boys and Dinettes, Faith Wilding, Rob Chambers' Bagdad Cafe, Ominous Clam, Zak Orth, Good Person of Szechwan, European Repertory's production of Agamemnon, Danny Mastrogiorgio, Michael Moore's Roger & Me, Chicago Shakespeare Theater, the anti-memoir memoir, and Ann Dowd.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I have a place to go to do with, it's not my one bedroom with my dog and my husband, but it's still a lot of work, like an and so, and then on top of that, I mean, I just feel like literally, you know what, I texted you yesterday and you said you knew the feeling like my brain is hurting me, but not in a bad way.
1 (50s):
I don't have a headache. Like I don't, I just was, you know, telling our couple surface, like, I feel like I can literally hear my brain turning and growing and groaning and like working. I've never had that feeling before in my life, which is weird. But like that, that feeling of, oh, I'm doing or knowing that what it was, what it was like, I'm doing a lot of work, you know, like my brain is doing so ridiculous, but that's how I feel, but it's all like, it, it doesn't feel, you know, what it is. I'm used to doing a lot of physical work.
1 (1m 32s):
Like I'm used to my body doing a lot of work. Like whether it's, you know, like the jobs I've had, like even the jobs that I, when I was a therapist account, you know, a counselor at social services, like I spent a lot of my time, like moving cases of diet Coke and cause we were in like a halfway house. So like I did a lot of manual labor and lot and case management and case management management is a lot of manual labor, like taking clients to appointments. And like, so when using my brain now in this different way, like literally I wished I would have been a camera on me when I was redoing my resume and cover letter specifically for the ad industry, because it is like making something out of nothing and also using words to like basically, you know, trick people, not trick people, but you know, get them to think what you want them to think.
1 (2m 27s):
And you think, oh, well she's, you know, television writing. The thing about that is like, you can make up anything like television writing really. You can really say, and then pigs flew out of his asshole and then people are like, oh, that's a weird show. But when you're trying to sell yourself to a particular industry with a particular set of skills, trying to make your skills meld into the skills they want, I was like, I couldn't see. After a while I was like, I don't even know what this, like using words like in this space, you leave space is a big word now.
2 (2m 59s):
So Metta that you are selling yourself to an advertising
1 (3m 8s):
Up girl.
2 (3m 10s):
So the PR how I understand it is there is somebody affiliated with this that is an advocate of yours, a champion of yours. And she wants, she wants you in that industry.
1 (3m 23s):
Okay. Yes, you are understanding. And there's like multiple things here. So she's, she's a screenwriter that I met and she continued on with the master's program. But her big job is her. Her day job is she's like a creative director at an ad agency in the, in the copy department. Right? So she's a big wig and she edits, she's like, she's the big editor there right at this. And I guess they hop around from agency to agency. Look, I don't know how it works, but so she started this new job and she's like, I want you to come work in the copyright. She also gets a very large bonus for every person that comes on that she refers, which I good look, do what you need to do.
1 (4m 6s):
But I think it's like five grand per person that she brings. I that's what I'm led to believe from the website. So anyway, there's like a, and so she literally Gina. So I sent her my updated resume and cover letter letter looked great. And then she applied me for 30 jobs. So then I have two.
2 (4m 27s):
Wow.
1 (4m 29s):
So which sounds great, which is awesome. Copywriting, all different kinds of copywriting. But for each of those jobs, I have to fill out demographic form. So last night I literally was up after myself tapes one self-tape last night clicking. I am not a veteran. Yes, I am Latina. No, I'm not disabled
2 (4m 53s):
Online. I was going to say, why don't they have one form, but it's
1 (4m 58s):
Yeah. It's a different job number. Right? So like every time, oh my God. So then, and sign, you have to sign every, so I literally was like, by the time I went to that, my brain, I was like, what? I'm not a veteran. I'm not a veteran like that. I was like mumbling to myself. And so, so, but I have to say like, you know, it's a good skill to build for. Like, I think that thing about, we only use 5% of our brain. They they've like debunked that right. They've said like that. You can't, but I'm telling you my brain, just like the Grinch's heart grew three sizes that day. My brain is like literally growing three side.
1 (5m 41s):
I don't know if it's three sizes, but it's, I can feel my, my, my like pathways changing in terms of the skills that I'm using. So that's great. You know,
2 (5m 51s):
I don't know. I mean, it can't be bad. Nothing. The good news is all of this work you're doing can't lead to anything bad to something. Yeah. Not illegal, You know, honestly, it's really saying something. I finally started watching Ozark. Oh God. And I, what strikes me about it is like, oh, this is not, it's not that this could happen to anybody, but you just think about like how ordinary crime really can be, you know, and how criminals aren't all in a layer or living in a way it's just, it's just moms and dads and, and people who need it, who need money in and who needs to run around and get it right quick.
2 (6m 40s):
Yeah. And I don't know, I will, I'm only one, not even the full first season in, so there may be a lot of stuff that I don't know, but like, it seems to me that this Jason Bateman guy was just a regular guy who got kind of wrapped up in this criminal enterprise
1 (6m 58s):
Didn't happen. You, I can see like most of my clients that I saw like were knowingly doing, you know, they were like, oh, I'm going to be a drug dealer and a gang member now. And no, but there were occasionally people that got involved in like scams, you know, financial fraud that you could see how it would start off and, and, and case in point miles. And I have a friend, an older guy, friend, we won't name because this is so illegal was like, Hey, what are you guys doing over Christmas break? And we're like, we're going, doing whatever. And he's like, Hey, do you want to, I shit, you not do you, if you'd let me know if you want to make some money, driving a camper from here to Tijuana.
1 (7m 41s):
And I, why like, what are you talking about? He's like, yeah, we'll give you like each $5,000 of it. And I said, well, what do you mean? Why do you need the, the, the, the camper and Tijuana? And he was like, oh, there's drugs in it. There's marijuana. And I was like, no. And miles was like, absolutely not. I'm like, have you met miles? Are you boy?
2 (8m 3s):
Oh, not, not marijuana, I guess,
1 (8m 5s):
Because it's marijuana. I don't, I don't
2 (8m 7s):
Think it's legal. Why do they have to do
1 (8m 9s):
That? I don't know. I think it was like a mass quantity or something like that. I don't know. Like, you're not allowed to like traffic, like large amounts of marijuana from different countries to over the border. Like, but so, especially in Mexico, like what? So I don't know. And we were like, Myles was like, absolutely not. I mean, miles is a lawyer. Like, what are you talking about?
2 (8m 34s):
Well, it's funny how just one casual aside a reference can really change your whole perspective on somebody you've known for a long time. Like I thought I've been in that situation before, you know, you think, you know, somebody and then they just casually say like, well, you know, we're swingers or
1 (8m 55s):
The other, the other, the other day I was meeting with somebody. Totally. And this actually didn't make me think less of him, but it was just like, he's like a totally looks like a total straight laced guy. If you're going to look at him, you know, white dude, thirties, balding, whatever. And he's like, yeah, I met him like the first time I, he was talking and he was like, oh yeah, the first time we met, we did Molly. And I was like, wait, what? At first I thought, Tina that's crystal meth. And I thought, but that wasn't, that it's Molly is whatever, HBM,
2 (9m 25s):
Whatever,
1 (9m 26s):
MTMA Molly. And I, like, I was so weird and we're like old people, what is happening? It's sitting in a cafe and you're talking about Molly. I don't know. I just it's, it totally rocked my world, which is, I think why I like to write too is because I do like to write those things in where you're like, wait, what? You know? Like, like,
2 (9m 53s):
Yeah, I have to say just, just the thought of learning, something like that, about somebody that I know is scary to me. And it, it just made me remember that I, after you mentioned season two of cheer, I started watching it. And I forgotten about the whole thing about that guy, Jerry Harris. And it was so heartbreaking to me when that happened. Not that it's worse or better if the person is well-known, it's just, you know, he, he seemed like a person who has such a hard life and it seemed like he was finally getting some, you know, something that he really deserved.
2 (10m 38s):
And then, and of course, I understand that when I hurt that hurt people, hurt people. And that he was probably doing this because this has been done to him. I don't know, man, I don't, these are surprises. I don't care for, I wanted it to stand for the rug and like for these kids to go on and being abused, that's not it at all. It's just, it's so disheartening. Well, it's really
1 (11m 5s):
It's. So there is, so yeah, it goes beyond grief. It's like goes beyond disappointment. It's like grief. And it's also, I think for me anyway, and I don't know about for you recreates the feeling of which is what I felt all the time with my parents, which is, oh, I know these people. I can trust these people. Oh God, I'm not safe around these
2 (11m 30s):
People. Okay. Thank you. That's exactly what it is.
1 (11m 33s):
I have that experience in Los Angeles, 40 times a day. Right. We're like, I want to like someone and then they'll say some fucking shit. And you're like, okay, well this is, you're a psychopath. Okay. Right. Like I'm talking to this. There's like, I meet them all the time at co-working because you know, co-working attracts like everybody, you just have to have money to have an office here. It's not like they, you know, vet people and some I'll be having a conversation with someone who seems relatively normal. And then they'll be like, oh yeah. You know, I was like, I really admire this Japanese porn star that like really knew what she wanted in life.
1 (12m 13s):
And it's not that there's anything wrong with being a Japanese porn star. It's that this guy like casually dropping, you know, and then talking about the kind of porn she does in a coworking setting. I I'm like, dude, I gotta go. I gotta make a fucking resume over here. Like I don't need to, but it's it's that in with him. It's just, I was just more like, oh, you're that you're going to bring this up to a stranger. Then I'm getting better about like, what's safe and not safe. But I do think that when you invest in something like Jerry or the cheer or a parent, and then they fucking do some shit, you're like, oh great. I'm not safe with you. That's,
2 (12m 50s):
It's what it is. It makes the feeling of own. And then, because I tend towards misanthropy, I'm like, okay, nobody's say if you can't trust anybody, everybody's out to get you, which is not true either. But it becomes, that is my defensive posture that I immediately tack back to, you know, I could go away thinking like, oh, there's goodness in the world. And some people and humans are inherently good. And then boom, something happens and I fail. And instead of, and I don't do the opposite when somebody does something good. I don't say yes, it's P you know what I mean? I don't, I don't have the same positive connotation that when somebody does something bad, it makes me say everybody's terrible.
1 (13m 34s):
It's really interesting because I'm having the experience of having to, what is it? So having to have a little more caution with people, I tend to really, really, really love everybody at first. Like really like I'm like, that person is awesome, but then they start talking crazy shit. And in the past I would have dismissed it and been like, no, I'm just sensitive. Right. Or I'm just so I'm trying now to be like, no, I wasn't there. When I was in therapy yesterday, I was like, no, no. Like in that moment I felt like this is not good for me.
1 (14m 16s):
And if I am not going to stand up for myself and take care of myself, nobody else is. So I have to mix a little more of the caution in with my, what can be Pollyanna kind of stuff. I have to be mindful of what my instincts are telling me about somebody, because I then will end up, you know, talking about very explicit Japanese porn techniques for half an hour and then walk away feeling violated and fucked up.
2 (14m 49s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I knew this. I ha I know somebody who's exceedingly reserved. She doesn't, I like her I'm we're friends, but she doesn't tell you anything about herself. Like, or it takes a long time. And it's just this little snip, like, as an example, I don't know how old she is. And I bring up my age all the time and I, and I think she's younger than I am, but somebody recently said, oh, actually I don't think she's. I think she's more like your age, but that's, but she's never chimed in whenever I've said anything about how old I am.
2 (15m 31s):
She, she, she won't tell she's, she's a mystery. And on the one hand, I think, oh, she's just, she's just protecting herself for the reason that you just said. I mean, you know, she, she knows me kind of, but it's not like she really, really knows me. Some people really wait until some people don't just give out their confidence to anybody for some people you really, and I, you know, I guess like good for her. Maybe that's the way to go. I don't know. I, I tend to be more like you, not that I love everybody, but that I assume, I assume everybody has good intentions.
2 (16m 13s):
And, and then it's very surprising and sad and shocking to me when they don't like the thing that happened to me last week, this fricking guy, I was at the, I was picking my son up from tennis and where I've been, where I've been. Yes. And the place has bad vibes. I, I w I don't like the place. The parking is annoying, but yeah, the parking is annoying anyway. So you're, you're not supposed to wait by the curb. The parents aren't supposed to wait by the curb and align for their kids to come out, but everybody does. Right. It's just how it goes. Cause there's nowhere to go. Right. And it's, and it's been really icy here. So even sometimes I will park whatever, but this time I'm thinking, well, it's really icy.
2 (16m 57s):
And I just don't want him to, it's not lit up really in the parking lot. I just don't want him to fall. So I'm waiting in line and the guy in the car behind me hunks, and I, I assume he's not honking at me. Why would he behind me? Me? I'm just, my car is just sitting there honks again. Hong's a third time. And I put my arm out, like, go, go around. I just thought maybe he didn't think he could go around me. I still honking. So I just kind of opened the door a little bit. I look behind me and I'm like, what's the deal? And he's just yelling something. So I think, okay, whatever, I'll just loop around, pull over, go through the parking lot, turn to come back. And the guy I had the right of way.
2 (17m 39s):
And he just zoomed in, in front of me made so that I had to slam on the same guy. So I had to slam on my brakes, but then he gets out of the car and walks up, walks over to me. Of course, I lock my doors and he's like just screaming obscenities at me. Now later on, I had the thought this of course had nothing to do with me. Of course, this is how, you know, I didn't do anything wrong. This is about a person who really wanted to kick the dog. And he found that he found somebody to, to do that with absolutely. But I tend to go through my life in kind of this bubble of like, everybody's got everybody's well-intended and maybe even he was well-intended it just, it just didn't come across in the, in this experience.
2 (18m 30s):
And
1 (18m 32s):
Did he walk away?
2 (18m 34s):
I said, get the fuck away from me. Get the fuck away from me. By the way, my dog was in the back of my dog, who barks at literally every leaf like Wallace.
1 (18m 54s):
What kind of wing man are you? You fucker anyway. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think those experiences are very particularly about driving and cars and obviously there's a whole road rage. Like there's literally a television show about road rage, right? Like the truth really? Oh my God. Yeah. It's a horrible it's so triggering. Don't watch it, but okay. I mean, yeah, it's ridiculous. But that being said it's very, to me, what happens to me in that situation? I'm sorry, that happened to you is yeah. Like what you mentioned on social media, which is feeling completely powerless and like, it's scary.
1 (19m 38s):
It's out of control. It's traumatizing. It's I, it's not good. It's not good. And it is also to me that what the feeling is being ambushed, right? Like you're being ambushed by, by a fucking crazy ass and you didn't do anything wrong. See, the thing is, I get into this thing of like, I didn't do anything wrong. And again, if I can get to the core of it, which is as a kid, I literally didn't do anything wrong. And all this shit rained down upon me, this trauma and this and this in this bullying and this whatever. And it triggers that in me. Like, wait a minute.
1 (20m 19s):
I, all I'm trying to do is do good, protect my son, pick up my thing, do this merge into the fucking freeway. It doesn't matter. And then I get like, this is not fair. Like I get really hurt is what it is. I get hurt. I'm shocked and hurt. And then the person, there is no, there is no resolution, right? Like the guy doesn't then call you later and say, I'm so sorry I acted a Dick. Or you can't even call the police and be like, this guy acted like a Dick. We're like, they're like, well, did he threaten you? No. Did he? Then they're like, fuck yourself.
2 (21m 5s):
Right. To say that it's, it is linked to, you know, growing up in a dysfunctional family. I'm for myself, looking a little bit more deeply into that. And because I, and I'm not saying this is the case for you, but for me, I think that I have said that I think that I have convinced myself that I'm never doing anything wrong, you know? And, and not just say that I was doing something necessarily wrong in the situation with the sky, although actually, you know, if I could have crafted it better, I would have paid attention to the flag from really from the first time they honk, which is like, there's something wrong with this person.
2 (21m 51s):
Do you know what I mean? Like, and yes,
1 (21m 55s):
Like get away, let me remove
2 (21m 57s):
My instinct. My instinct is to want to fight back. In fact, I remember this time that the some concert or something like that with Aaron, it was early in our relationship. So I was in my early twenties and this guy kept whatever. He kept stepping too close to me something. And I, I pushed him and pushed him. He, and of course, what did he do? He looked at Aaron like, are you gonna like, don't do that to me. I don't want to, you know, and it's, but it's not fair. He's encroaching on my space. He's like fair. Who, who told you the thing that we're going to be fair? Like it's, you know, so I guess that's the thing is I sometimes go out in the world thinking like, I'm an, a student and therefore, you know, nothing.
2 (22m 42s):
I don't, I shouldn't be getting any demerits. And if I get into merit, it's not my fault. I do that a lot.
1 (22m 50s):
I have the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I, I do it where it's like, I, yeah, I have my version of that is like, I'm a nice person. Like I do good. I'm nice. How dare you do bad or do wrong or treat me bad. Yeah. I mean, he it's, all this stuff is so layered. And
2 (23m 10s):
As far back, like it takes a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's so far back. If it took this many years for us to form this way, imagine how long it's going to take us to On the podcast we are talking to Carolyn. Carolyn has a BFA from a theater school and imitate from the school of the art Institute of
3 (23m 45s):
Chicago. Carolyn is a performer and a professor and a lovely and pathic, amazing human. So please enjoy our conversation with Carolyn Bournemouth.
4 (24m 8s):
We're not here to talk about cancer. I've got no theaters because the Rick Murphy shirt Murphy's now this is actually made by Kevin Foster, who was my, that student. But I guess so I directed a workshop that he was in. He's a wonderful man. He ended up moving to Alaska, teaching people how to climb ice mountains. And now has a wife and a baby and never left Alaska. So we had that weird connection. Cause I lived in Alaska for the summer in between my first and second year of school, which I guess is it's like another theater school story in a way. I forgot about that one.
2 (24m 47s):
We're here. So Carolyn Hornimann, congratulations. You survived theater school. Yes you do.
4 (24m 56s):
You survived it. I know. That's why I bought this very expensive mix. So I would get lots of voiceover work that I never get.
2 (25m 2s):
Hey, maybe this is going to be your open Amy
4 (25m 4s):
Visit shit. This is it. This is my ticket. This is my ticket. I love podcasts.
2 (25m 10s):
So you survived as a student and you teach
4 (25m 13s):
DePaul. I teach there. I mainly teach the non-majors, which I love, but I have directed a couple of a workshop, intro type things. But many years ago, I keep putting in proposals. They don't ask me to do again, supposedly next year, maybe I will be, which would be awesome because I have this idea to do a version of Bernhardt Hamlet with all genders and just like totally gender fluid. So
2 (25m 42s):
You have to submit a proposal
4 (25m 44s):
For a show. That's a whole nother story. I'm probably another podcast, but I have submitted proposals. But oddly enough, a couple of times I did direct. I was just asked to, and that, I guess we're going backwards to go forwards. Are we always bad and make it go forward? Right. Which is that amazing? I think it's David Ball. The book that they made us read called backwards and forwards. Do you guys think I read In HDL, you had to read this book called backwards and forwards. Anyway, I used it in my master's thesis too. Cause it's brilliant. But anyway, backwards and forwards, I was in graduate school.
4 (26m 24s):
Rick Murphy was like kind of very interested in what I was doing. I was doing work on performing new feminisms and he was like, what the fuck is that? What's going on at the white cards? You can curse. Oh, no podcast. And, and that's a whole nother story because actually Rick Murphy was not my teacher. I had David AVD, Collie, and I went into to Rick Murphy's office. Like I guess it was probably my senior year to ask him advice about wanting to go to London, to study his full cereals. Right. As if I hadn't already been studying for serious. Right. Cause I wanted to go to Europe and be a fancy pants, real actor. And he was like, why are you going to do that? Why don't you just stay here and find a company that does European work.
4 (27m 7s):
So then I was in the European repertory company for 12 years. Oh,
1 (27m 10s):
Oh, that's a, that's a nice long run. Is that, is that company still around?
4 (27m 14s):
No, that's another story.
1 (27m 16s):
You have so many stories
4 (27m 18s):
We need to have, like, I have too many stories, too many stories. I don't even
1 (27m 21s):
Know where to start. Well, here's where I'll start. Did you just let's get the facts? So you went to BFA at the theater school, but you got to be MFA somewhere.
4 (27m 32s):
Oddly enough. No, I got, what is an M a E a masters of art and art education from the art Institute of Chicago, which is funny. Cause the Goodman started at the art Institute. So I guess I'm like super Chicago already.
1 (27m 45s):
You did that. Okay. I wanted to get the facts down. That is why. So then I would like to start when you were a child, were you always this awesome where you just like, fuck it. I'm going to
4 (27m 59s):
Just be crunchy. I have cool glasses, like YouTube,
1 (28m 2s):
There's serial killer glasses that we have just FYI.
4 (28m 7s):
I am from a small town down south. And I guess in a way I knew somehow that I wanted to be an actor from like watching old Betty Davis movies with my mom,
1 (28m 17s):
Her like Betty Davis.
4 (28m 20s):
And then I, my dad died when I was a sophomore in high school unexpectedly. And I was with my English teacher who taught us Shakespeare. He was fabulous. Mr. Beaver, very eccentric man who was probably gay and was not able to be out in our little small town. And Mr. Beaver took us to another small farm town school bus to all in, to see the show that was coming in from Chicago. And it was from the page to the stage Shakespeare by step and
1 (28m 55s):
Walk, a little company called
4 (28m 59s):
John C. Riley was one of the two count of two actors. There was a man and a woman. I wish I knew who she was. I went on deep dive search last night to find out and I can't find it anywhere on the internet. Was that my computer making a noise? Oh,
1 (29m 15s):
I didn't hear, I didn't hear it either. So something, well, here's the thing I'm sort of in touch with John C. Riley for various weird reasons. So I might ask him,
4 (29m 27s):
Please ask him, oh, he's the only one that will know. It's not anywhere on the internet. And I don't talk to him, although he's very close with Rick Murphy, oddly enough. They're like buds. But so, so anyway, we're in this, you know, school editorial, I'm watching this Shakespeare show with Jonsi rally and this woman that was also amazing. I hate that. I only know the guy, right. But they had a trunk and they would pull out costumes and props from the trunk. And they went through several scenes of Shakespeare. It was, you know, like devised, wonderful, amazing theater traveling the country, like the old frickin work progress association do used to do with the federal theater, which we should still have. Thank you very much.
4 (30m 7s):
And I, you know, had the PR I remember holding the program to like, with like, who are these people? What did they do? Where did they go to school? Oh, theater school, DePaul university. That's one question. Okay. How old were you? Like 15 amazing. Maybe 16. Cause I looked and it said it was 86. My dad died in 85. I was 15. I was 16. So I then also had, I was the president of the thespians of Lincoln community high school in Lincoln, Illinois. And I had, we, one of the things that we got was I forgot what it was. Oh, I wish I remembered it was a fabulous name. Like it wasn't forensics theater or something.
4 (30m 49s):
The, the title of the magazine you would get, it was like a high school theater magazine. And you got a free subscription of that for a year. Cause you, you know, you were the president of the Philippines and it also of course had a wonderful little spread about the theater school. So then I decided it was either going to be NYU theater school. My mom wanted me to go to ISU and kept saying, John Malcovich went there. John Malcovich went there because that was only 45 minutes away from me. So she really wanted me to go there, you know, cause my dad had just fucking died and she and I had moved from the country into the town and she wanted me to stay close, but she wasn't going to say that. But I know that now that that's what she wanted. Plus it was a lot cheaper and also Webster, which is in St. Louis. I think so somehow I got into, I think ISU in Webster, but I don't remember auditioning.
4 (31m 33s):
I think I just like had to write an essay and say I wanted to go Tish. I didn't even, I don't think pursue it because I couldn't afford to go to New York to audition. I only auditioned at the theater school. I addition to in my junior year I got in and my junior year, I knew where I was going for my senior year of high school. That's awesome. My brother drove me there and his, he had this old convertible. I remember driving down lake shore drive with my brother. It's my brother who now has cancer. And he took me to this audition. I don't know where he went or what he did with his big, long, old, like 67 do you know, muscle car that he had. But I went in and I did the audition and I did the voice and I did the weird movement and I did my two monologues and I don't remember exactly who was there.
4 (32m 16s):
I think it was maybe Phyllis Gemma stuff. Maybe it was his Carol Delk person who was a movement teacher who then I never really had. But anyway, yeah, I got, I got in, I remember getting the letter. I remember standing on my stairs in my house in Lincoln, Illinois, because then, you know, you've got to actually better in the mail. There's no emails or anything. And I was standing on the stairs is my, mom's stood at the foot of the stairs and opening it and being like, and then she's like, well, you know, we'll figure it out
2 (32m 47s):
Time out for one second. Do you think that kids think about us opening letters? The way that we think about people opening scrolls
1 (32m 55s):
Or telegrams? Yeah.
4 (32m 59s):
I have to explain to my students with snail mail is because at the end of every quarter I send everyone a little card, just a little thank you card. I've been doing it for like 15, 16 years now. So I can't stop now that I started this tradition and I'll ask them for their snail mail and they'll be like, what's that? And then I'll have to explain to them what it is and then they'll give it to me and they'll leave off like there's zip code or the town on her. I'm like, no, you have to put everything.
1 (33m 19s):
So there is a, I met someone at my coworking space who is like, I think 25 and they didn't know to put stamps on letters. So he just
4 (33m 34s):
Imagined that he
1 (33m 34s):
Was going to the post box and I said, oh, you're going to the postbox. I said, oh, you forgot your stamp. He goes, what? I was like, oh my God. Anyway.
2 (33m 46s):
And also I have to backtrack about one of the things that John C. Reilly thing was that a DePaul production or Novus Devin
4 (33m 54s):
Oh seven
2 (33m 55s):
Will forever. Right? Okay.
4 (33m 57s):
It must've been one of his first jobs out of school cause it was 1986. And I was also looking because there was this amazing picture of him from Gardenia, I think in the brochure. So then not only are in the magazine that I had, I don't think I ever got a brochure in the mail. It was this magazine. I'm going to find out the name of it. Cause it was just a cool little magazine that the theater kids, theater nerd, Scott, and we, and I got it for free when I was the president of, at that speeds. And so there was this wonderful picture that was some of the, you know, lovely glorious lady like grabbing, holding onto his leg or something was very dramatic. And this story goes further because then I'm at the theater school is my freshman year and there was the God squad party.
4 (34m 39s):
Nobody's really talked about the gods squad a little
2 (34m 41s):
Bit.
4 (34m 43s):
So the God squad party, I don't remember who my God parent was. I don't even, I must not been very good cause I have no idea who it was, but I was at this party and John C. Riley was there.
2 (34m 56s):
You must've been levitating.
4 (34m 59s):
And Don Elko was there. There was teachers therapy for smoking and drinking with the teachers. I was like, mind blonde, what's going on? And I said, I want it to John C. Riley in the kitchen, leaning up against the kitchen sink with like a beer or something. And I was like, excuse me. I need to tell you it's still on me about why I'm here. You know? Like I got tell him
2 (35m 22s):
That he's
4 (35m 23s):
A nice guy. Remember what he said? I don't remember anything. I was just like, that's
1 (35m 27s):
So good that,
4 (35m 29s):
And this is before yeah, it was famous. Right. And he might not have even ended up being famous. This is like, I thought he was that famous from skiing. That fricking page, the stage new person traveling around tiny little rural towns of Illinois.
1 (35m 45s):
That's amazing.
4 (35m 47s):
So I would love to know what he thinks of that, that show. If he has memories of doing it, who the other,
1 (35m 53s):
This podcast. I mean like you'll listen, you'll listen to, if you listen to some of the podcasts, you'll hear my John C. Riley story. It's pretty, it's pretty funny.
4 (36m 1s):
Oh, you have one too. Okay. I've been, I went this way. I have bags. I went down deep dive last night.
2 (36m 9s):
I love that. A lot of people do that. A lot of people when they find the podcast go and listen to a bunch of. So what was the experience like for you? You were walking down memory lane. What was it making you feel?
4 (36m 21s):
Ooh, I don't know. Now it's making me want to cry. It was, you know, I was 17 and I started there. I had no idea what I'd got myself into and a lot of it, you know, really broke my heart, but I also think it may, you know, like everyone else has said it made me who I am, made me kind of a tough skinned bad-ass, but I'm also a hyper empath and have trauma. And so now I have to deal with, you know, all of that in my old age. But I did have experiences there in classes with certain teachers, with certain instructors, certain directors, I lived with five girls in a two bedroom apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden.
4 (37m 13s):
We were all poor. Nobody could afford anything else I could barely afford to go to showcase. It was only in New York that year was when they went back and forth between New York and LA I guess, or I don't think we'd even started doing LA. It was the only New York and yeah, I don't know. I mean the whole casting pool process, the whole cutting process. I mean, obviously it didn't get cut, but that was, you know, traumatic. I've heard other people talk about how they didn't really think about it or this and that. Like Eric Slater was like, I don't really think about it. And I was like, I have to say,
2 (37m 45s):
I hope that isn't over the wrong way. A lot of men didn't really
4 (37m 47s):
Think about it. I was going to say, it goes a little bit ago and I know him, I'm friends with him and sat there for a little bit of privilege there.
2 (37m 55s):
Just like, it's just, it's like how a fish doesn't know it's in water. Like you just don't know.
1 (38m 1s):
Yeah. I mean, they just are doing their set dance. Right. And everyone's dancing around them, but we sort of had to do our own thing. What do you think the tears are about? Like when you, when is it just raw motion or is there like tears for young, a young version of you? Or like it's just a lot.
4 (38m 22s):
I'm a very teary person. I think. I don't know exactly what it is. I'm in therapy. It's I know. I just,
1 (38m 29s):
I am the same way. Like I,
4 (38m 32s):
I get, I get overwhelmed. I get really moved just by kind of yeah. And that sort of strange and weird that I'm still there in some weird way. Like I'm an adjunct, I teach the non-majors, but I'm there. And I went back actually, Rick Murphy directed a show that I adapted for the children's theater called the selfish giant and other wild tales. W I L D E all the Oscar Wilde's fairytales and Alvin McCraney was in it. First of all, Oscar Wilde wrote, wrote, he wrote fairytales and I had actually adapted another book that somebody else ended up having the rights to.
4 (39m 13s):
And so Rick was like, well, you know, I know you really wanted to do that one, but if you find something else, I'll still direct it. And so I was like, okay, let's do this. And so I adapted us, grows fairytales. Awesome. For me to read, love, to read that I can find it somewhere. Might actually be a hard copy of it and I'd have to like scale or something. I don't know where it is. That was like 2002. I think there's also pictures of that. I also found which I didn't know the production history of the theater school online. You get the pictures for almost everything and they're almost all taken by John Bridges, right. Bridges, which is amazing. Cause these, I don't know why I only have these two printed out of the old whore and the sister-in-law from the good person of such one, which actually is like a happy, sad, weird story because I auditioned to be course and I was called back for it and I really wanted it.
4 (40m 8s):
And it was that awful time where they would post on our side of the theater school, glass doors that casting it like midnight. So we would come there while we waited and we went to the door and not only did I not get it, but one of my friends got it, of course. Cause how were, how was it not going to be your friend gets it? And, and then I see old whore and sister-in-law, and I just, I had heels on and I took them off and I started running and I like cut my feet up, running in the street crying and like old 18 years old. And your sister-in-law told her, well, that's another thing, you know, because of my voice and my larger frame, I've always been cast older.
4 (40m 53s):
Even in high school. I have a very traumatic story actually being in high school. And my father dying when we were doing cheaper by the dozen, which if you know the story, the dad leaves at the end and doesn't come back cause he dies and we're doing this play. And it was must have been like the end of the rehearsals right before we opened. And my director who was one of the English teachers at my high school, I remember being on the phone with her because I remember exactly where I was standing in my house. And instead of being like really sympathetic about my dad dying, she was talking about how I was the younger of three of the sisters and the girl that got the older sister, which is the part I wanted, who was the daughter of another English teacher who was always getting all the parts I wanted.
4 (41m 34s):
She didn't have as big of breasts. And my English teacher was like, maybe we can, you know, tape you down. And I thought, why didn't you just cast me as the older sister plus I was wearing this like beautiful, old, like 40 suit. That was my mom's was vintage suit that I loved. So it was kind of tight and probably did really show my frame. I was 15 and my dad had just died. This woman's telling me to tape my breasts down.
2 (42m 7s):
So yeah,
4 (42m 7s):
I always, I always got cast older and I can see what
2 (42m 10s):
He went down the road of wanting to do feminist theater. I mean, it sounds like from an early age, you were, you were made aware of double standards and beauty standards and all that kind of stuff.
4 (42m 21s):
1994, I think it was, I had graduated. I was auditioning. And it was when you had to look in like this paper for the auditions and there was like a line you called, oh God, I wish I could remember it. It was, you had to call this line and stay on hold forever and listen to all the audition notices. And there was an audition for pump boys and dynamics, which I was excited about. Cause I'd seen it when I was younger with my mom and I thought, oh, that's fun. And it literally said the men will be paid. And I got a fucking article in the Chicago Tribune about that.
2 (42m 55s):
You did. Oh, tell us about it. You just wrote about,
4 (42m 60s):
You know, they they're, they're like backpedaling about, it was like, well it's because the musicians they're going to get paid and the musicians are mad at first of all, now I'm thinking back like, why did the musicians have to be men? And you literally still wrote, the men will be paid. He didn't write, the musicians will be pay. So yeah. I don't know how I did it now. Now it's all kind of a blur. I just started calling places and I got a reporter from the Tribune to like talk to me and do a whole article about it.
2 (43m 25s):
Oh. So you're really tenacious. That's what I'm getting. I'm getting that. You get something, whether it's a goal or you're trying to write an injustice and you attach yourself to it,
4 (43m 36s):
Right. I'm an Aquarius moon. I know this. Isn't an astrology podcast, but I've looked at your side. I've learned in the last couple of years, I'm Scorpio, sun cancer, rising, thus the tears and then Aquarius moon, thus the righteous justice for all.
2 (43m 52s):
I love that. I love that you
4 (43m 54s):
Did tons of work after school ended up doing tons of work like in, in schools, after-school programs, writing and drama programs and things like that, which ended up taking me to go back to graduate school and get the Mae and education. But then that was like a lot of solo performance work I did too, with this woman, faith wilding, who was like, look her up. She likes started women house it, I think Cal arts and like the seventies, she has this famous piece where she rocks in a rocking chair and says, I'll, I'll wait until I'm old enough. I'll wait till I fall in the I'll wait until I'm married. I'll wait. You know, just incredible woman who taught this class called new feminisms. She taught one called body skin sensation.
4 (44m 37s):
I mean just, and so I was doing all this incredible work again, looking at myself and being a woman and being an actor and what the trauma that I'd been through. And then my thesis was doing a performance experiment with a bunch of young women from all over Chicago, like high school age women talking about their mothers and feminism and teaching them about feminism and
1 (45m 1s):
Well what, okay, so, so a question for you, first of all, I tidbit I have to share that we ha we spoke with, I think it was Joel Butler who was a stage manager and said that they would come out and walk to tease us. When we were waiting for the list to come home, they would pretend that they had news and go like the people who weren't involved. Anyway, I just have to say the whole thing was a setup. Like the whole thing was a fucking setup. So all it was like the hunger games and it was also that in itself was a play like a theatrical experience of man.
4 (45m 41s):
I don't really know how they do it now. It's all online.
1 (45m 44s):
It's all online. Yeah. They sent you an email with your casting, but I'm just saying like, when I look back, my little corner of the world was walk, walk, walk, look at the list. Feel like shit, walk, walk, walk. But there was a whole play happening around us of everyone knew what the fuck was going on. And it was part of the thing to have this sort of, yeah, it was, it was a production, it was a fucking production, a tragedy for most of us. Right? Like, and anyway, it just was interesting to hear the perspective, like everyone knew what was going on and everyone played a part is what I'm saying is what I get from the theater school. Like it was all back in the day. Anyway, it was all part of a thing.
1 (46m 24s):
And like, you get the idea
2 (46m 26s):
We're working through for some of the faculty who, you know, themselves couldn't realize their professional dreams. And you know,
4 (46m 35s):
That makes me so sad. I hope that it's really not
1 (46m 40s):
Okay. I mean, like it's not okay, but it's like, they, we, a lot of times we talk on this podcast, right. About the psychology of never fixing what you needed to fix in the first place inside of yourself gets fucking played out all over everywhere.
4 (46m 54s):
We are living in a new time of awakening and people being able to talk about their trauma. That was not that time. And that was also the time, like I said, where the teachers were coming to parties with us and drinking and somebody else was mentioned, somebody else was mentioning, you know, relationships between faculty and students. I only knew a couple of those instances, but yeah, the fact that they happen at all and yeah, yeah. I've found that like in my own teaching, like even, even in the last couple of years and I've been doing it for a long time, I just I've become so much more transparent. Like I talk about my own mental health issues or what's going on with me or I, I check in and check out with them every day. And it's like, what's something beautiful you saw today.
4 (47m 35s):
What, what are you going to do good for yourself when you leave this zoom glass, whatever, you know, like, so I think that as a culture we're evolving as facilitators instructors teachers, but yeah, we were there at a really hard, whoa time. I, for sure. I mean, you were there pretty shortly after that, but also I had some amazing experiences. I loved Betsy Hamilton. I loved John Jenkins. Jim. I still laugh. I actually had for two years cause Adam second year and fourth year, which nobody did because he randomly taught second year acting one year for some reason. And everybody had him for fourth year for what that was called, like ensemble or exit or whatever the hell it was called.
4 (48m 19s):
So I had him second and fourth year. He actually told me at one point, heard him out, what you're doing, why are you an actor? You should be a singer. And so then I sang in the, oh no, it was after I sang in this, it was Rob chambers thesis show Baghdad cafe. And I sang backstage live for just a couple parts of the show. Just Rob asked me to do this. I don't even remember how that all came about. And, and you know, Jim being the jazz and music aficionado called me to his office and was like, what are you doing? You should be a singer. Shouldn't be the act. But was that ever a, a w dream of yours to be a singer? I was in rock band called dominance clam I did say I did sing a lot that there was a summer.
4 (49m 7s):
I wasn't even 21. So I would go, I've sang it like the Metro and I wasn't really supposed to be in there and, and Zach wards and Steve Sal and all these people from my class came to see me. And yeah, I wanted to do that and I would audition for musicals and stuff after I graduated, but just like Marriott Lincoln Shire and all those like fancy places would never hire me. And I would always end up in shows where I sent, but they weren't musicals, you know? And I also think I have a little bit of trauma around singing. I started singing in my church after my dad died. I was the song leader in Catholic church. Believe it or not. And I would go out the night before and be like smoking and drinking with my friends and then sitting on the alter with like the breeze and like, like Christ, what the hell are we doing?
4 (49m 55s):
I would say at funerals, I sang at my mom's second wedding. I sang at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding, my other brothers. But yeah, I say I sang a lot. I haven't really been singing recently cause I, I usually end up crying when I sing. I had a very traumatic audition, 2008. I think it was where I cried when I was singing the song. And the song was about the girl's dad a little bit on the high note and it cracked and the casting director will remain nameless called my agent and told them that they thought I had mental problems and needed help. Okay. Again, this is something that would never happen today.
4 (50m 37s):
Right. But it wasn't that long ago, 2008, she also said that I was dressed in appropriately. I wore a forties style suit and a pillbox hat, because that was the period of the show. How is that inappropriate? That's someone who's. And why you calling my agent how intrusive to call my agent and tell them that you think I'm. And then the funny thing about it was I had just gone through a huge breakup and had moved and gotten a new job and all this other stuff was going on, but that had nothing to do with it. And that's nobody's business and I was moved by the song. And don't you want somebody, that's just somebody who, who is scared of their own emotions, like, correct. That's all that is. Yeah. So anyway, I digressed cause that's like post theater, school drama,
2 (51m 20s):
But I've had auditioning. Okay. So you arrived at the theater school at a tender young age. You
4 (51m 28s):
17. I was 17 because I have a November birthday, 17.
2 (51m 32s):
And you did your whole BFA there. Tell us about some of your show experiences.
4 (51m 41s):
Well, the one that I was going to talk about was the good person of such one. Cause oddly enough, it's the only one that I have printed pictures of. And I don't even remember when or how I acquired them. I think I got them from John Bridges cause he took all these pictures and that one of me is the sister-in-law. I don't know that that one was like a production photo. I think that was him coming up. And he saw me in this moment and like had to get this shot. So not only was I not cast as Shantay, which I want it to be now I'm the, the sister-in-law on the old whore. So I'm like, I'm going to kill this. I had 16 lines between the two characters, my old whore. If you look at that picture, I have a blonde wig. I didn't wear a bra. I have a tube, top, a pleather red skirt. I had these hoes that had a dragon up the side.
4 (52m 22s):
So it looked like I had a dragon tattoo on my leg and high, high red pumps that I think were mine actually from when I was in a beauty contest in high school anyway, and I got these earrings, oh my God. I think I found those earrings too. They were Chinese lanterns like that opened up, but they were earrings and they were huge. And I smoked a cigar. Oh. And I, I don't know if you remember this or if they did this when you were there, but after shows closed, mainly the main stage shows they had like this post mortem, postpartum, whatever you call it in the lobby and everybody and they would critique. I probably blacked that right out while you sat there and just took it.
4 (53m 7s):
And, but I don't know if it was during that or like after that, I would just be like walking in the halls and all these teachers, some that I had and some that I hadn't yet even had made a point of coming to tell me how excellent I wasn't that. Sure. And it was not false. It was not put on. But I mean, come on. Those people did not give compliments unless they really felt
1 (53m 29s):
Whatever. Yeah, yeah,
4 (53m 30s):
No. And I was like, yeah, cause I freaking killed it. Cause I took it so seriously. I was like, I'm going to make these roles so deep and so real. And if you, if you look on the production photos, they have this screen and, and, and, and people would make shadow play on the screen at the beginning of the show to show like the street life of the pool or the Sichuan and stuff. And I got to ride a bike and I rode a bike across and you see the shadow of the girl on the bike and I'm like, I still look at that. And I'm like that.
1 (53m 57s):
So do you think that's, I love hearing that. That's a great story for me to hear. For some reason, it just really warm, but warms my heart, but also talks about Gina's calling you on being tenacious. But do you think that that sort of set a tone for, cause what I'm getting from you is that like you're simultaneously a, bad-ass a bit of an outsider never given your chance. Never really given the chance to maybe in terms of outside casting, do what you could really do. So then you take what you get and then you fucking kill it. Does that ring a bell
4 (54m 37s):
Kind of? I think so. And I think I've always been that way really. And that also being in that show, Joe sloth directed, it was Bertolt Brecht. And really got me thinking about political theater and theater for social movement and theater for change. And I really believe when I graduated and I started doing work at the European repertory company, I believed that doing theater could change the world. You don't think that anymore change sometimes, you know, it beats you down pretty hard when you, when you work and work and work and work and you have to have three other jobs. Cause you're in a theater company that doesn't pay you any money.
4 (55m 17s):
And I, I still like the best work of my life was at that place. I was client of Nestor and Agamemnon for three years. I mean, I, Y you know, yeah, the best work of my life, but was it going to say that there's a different, and I think it's good. There's a different culture, a different mindset. Now students now would never graduate and say, yes, I'm going to be in a school or I'm going to be in a theater company for 12 years that never pays me and I'm going to have three or four jobs. And it was nice to kind of almost like a martyr, poor theater, Jersey, Petoskey board theater mindset of like, I'm an artist. Well, of course I'm, I'm struggling and I'm poor and I'm, you know, but I'm for the oppressed. And so I must experience that.
4 (55m 59s):
I don't, I dunno, like it just, I wonder how much I manifested that, right. Because I, I would have auditions for TV and film stuff that I would get close to and just not get, or it took me. I was, I think, 30 when I finally gotten a show at the Goodman or no, wait, I was 30 when I got at apt in Wisconsin. I think I was even older when I got in the show at the Goodman. But anyway, yeah. You know, eventually I have done shows larger theaters, but I still will say, I mean, people that saw the stuff I did at the European rep and I was like 24, 25, but I played clouded minister and it was Steven Berkoff's choir master. So it was like the most rockstar frickin, you know, I made my own costume.
4 (56m 41s):
It was, it was all like fishnet. And I just like punched my hands through fish nets to make sleeves and high heels and crazy Kabuki makeup. And I stood at the top of this ladder Agamemnon. And I came out at the end with like Hershey's syrup on my hands after I'd feel them. And I was like, I mean, if you saw that as hit, you were blown away, this was three years while we did it, like in a regular run. And then it was so popular. It was so popular that we did it on Friday, Saturday nights, like late night. And then we were doing, cause we want it to be a real repertory. So at the time we were doing Agamemnon Electra, uncle Vanya, and this show called all of them are just, yes.
4 (57m 32s):
And we would also change this. You remind me, okay, this is what I think Steven Davis was talking about when he said he was in four shows at the same time he, he was in, he was in all those shows and yeah. So, oh my God,
2 (57m 51s):
That's super intense
4 (57m 53s):
Looking at my notes
2 (57m 54s):
That like, though, while you're looking at your notes, I mean, was that draining, not just the number of shows you did
4 (58m 4s):
The physical training. Well, also I was, yeah, I was like a waitress during the day. I mean, I had a job I had to live and I was a waitress where I could only work lunches because all the shows were at nights. So lunches weren't as busy. And if it was really slow at lunch, I mean, so I would find myself every day while I was working calculating in my head, how many tables I had to have, how many tips I had to get just to make enough for that week to pay the rent, you know? And at the time I was living with two British guys, actually, they're the ones that brought me into the European rep, my friend, Charlie, Charlie Sherman, who is a actor and director in and out of Chicago for years. I met him when I was 18.
4 (58m 44s):
And I worked at cafe Roma, which was down the street from the school. That was my job. Cause I also worked when I was in school. And so when other people were like, we're going to the dead show. You want to come? I was like, you get, not only do I not have money for that, but I got to work all weekend. Right. So anyway, he, he knew that I wanted to do the play Caligula and he called me up one day and he's like, oh my God, this company is already doing it. Maybe you should audition. And this was right when I got out of school. So I auditioned and I got in the chorus and like the first week, the girl that was supposed to place, Zonea had gotten a movie and left and they were like, okay, now you're the lead. And I was like, okay. And that, and that was the company that I ended up being with for 12 years.
4 (59m 27s):
But it was exhausting as it was. I know we did. We were also all like drinking and smoking and going to the bar every night after the show is
2 (59m 35s):
You is a powerful force. I was just thinking the other day, remember when you used to wake up in the morning and no matter what had happened to you the night before, and you're like, okay, well, but anyway, it's time to do it today. I haven't had that feeling in years. I haven't had that. Like I can even when some we've once a day, I'm super excited about, I don't ha I don't wake up with this body, like readiness that I remember feeling in my twenties and thirties. Okay. So look at your notes. What are you, what are some of, some of the points that you wanted to get to?
1 (1h 0m 7s):
So if a showcase question, I have a showcase. Cause I'm obsessed. Since I live in Los Angeles, now I'm obsessed.
4 (1h 0m 12s):
Oh my God, are you guys going to try to avoid? No, no, no, no, no,
1 (1h 0m 15s):
No, no, no. I'm obsessed with the idea of the showcase because I made such an ass out of myself at my showcase that I, we went to LA, but I know you were in New York, but what was that? I'm obsessed with the showcase experience because I think it is really one interesting, but two where DePaul lacked in so many ways to getting people to the showcase and then after the showcase.
4 (1h 0m 42s):
Okay, great. This was before stars and all that. So nobody was collecting money for us. You just had to, you either had the money or you didn't. And so I was able to get enough money to buy a plane ticket, but then I wasn't going to have anywhere to stay. So my friend, Sarah Wilkinson, who was also at the school, but a couple of years behind me, her boyfriend, Daniel master Giorgio, who's also been in a lot of TV shows and on, on, you know, Lincoln stage and public theater, like this dude that went to Juilliard, actually I stayed in his dorm at Juilliard on the floor cause I didn't have money to stay anywhere. And I also could only stay for like a couple of days where like other people were like staying the rest of the week or going out and partying.
4 (1h 1m 23s):
And I remember having like just enough money to do one of the things people were doing, which was go to a jazz club with Frick and Jim Osstell Hoff, which I did. And that was really cool. The other part of that, that was kind of messed up was in the, in the, you know, audition class that Jane alderman, God rest her soul. And I love her dearly and became closer to her. I probably more after school than during school, but in our audition class where you brought, you know, monologues, I had brought this monologue and then she loved it and wanted me to do it and was just like, that's the, when you're doing. And then I had this total panic about it and was like, I don't think this is right. I don't think this shows me in a good light.
4 (1h 2m 3s):
I'm going to pick something else. And I don't remember what my other second or third choice was. I did, I did have something else. And I remember calling her on the phone. I don't know if I called her office or at home. And again, before cell phones. So I remember the little window I was sitting in my apartment on the corner of Sheffield and Belden on our little phone, talking to Jane alderman, all nervous. Cause I was going to tell her I'm not doing that when it's not right for me. And she still talked me into it and I did this monologue from Roger and me, the film. Did you see it?
2 (1h 2m 34s):
The Michael Moore movie
4 (1h 2m 36s):
About the Michael Moore movie, Roger,
2 (1h 2m 40s):
The documentary about the auto industry. I mean, yeah.
4 (1h 2m 44s):
Yes. And it was the poor woman, poor white woman who sold rabbits. Pets are mate. Right? Pets are me. Got it.
2 (1h 2m 55s):
That's what I did. Wait a minute though. I have a feeling.
4 (1h 2m 60s):
So I actually became, I probably did, but I actually came from where they had tried to, to suppress and to change and to mold me into anything. But this hit girl from Southern Illinois. And then I did that. Right. And that's what I, I wore my boots. I wear my cowboy boots. I think I had my friend's jacket on my long hair. And I came out and I was like pets for me. Oh my God, mortified, mortified. And I only got, I got like a couple of calls, like one was from like a soap opera. And then another one, I don't remember. That was another weird thing. Like the same thing with the casting call we waited in, I was in somebody else's hotel room.
4 (1h 3m 42s):
Cause remember I didn't have a hotel. I was staying on the other side of town and the dorm room of somebody who went to Julliard. And so we're in somebody's hotel room waiting for Jim Mostel Hoff. And whoever else was with us to come in with like this list, it was literal. It was like my notes here. There was just like tiny pieces of paper with like telling us who got what calls. Some people were like, got nothing, got 10 that too, about whatever. Yeah. And, and mine were not meetings. Mine were just like, these people want you to call them or send your resume. I was like, they already got my resume. Everybody got what, what? So, you know, like I wanted to move to New York. I wanted to be a New York fancy actor, you know? So that was like really devastating too.
4 (1h 4m 23s):
But then I was like, well, if I don't get that, I'm going to be an amazing Chicago theater actor. And I'm going to show everybody that Chicago theater is actually better anyway.
2 (1h 4m 31s):
Yeah. I don't to remember VAs if I've told this on the podcast before, but remember how I did that thing or if I didn't get any meetings. And so then I snuck into administrative office at DePaul after showcase and I found a list of all of our names and everybody had gotten, everybody had agencies or agents names written next to theirs, but not everybody was told that. Yeah. Yeah. So,
4 (1h 5m 5s):
Oh, podcasts, then couldn't see my face gaping. Now what, what did you do? Did you tell, did you, what?
2 (1h 5m 12s):
I swallowed it and carried it around resentfully for the next 20 years. Yes ma'am I did my God. And you know, who knows? Maybe there was an important reason for that. Maybe it was, these are shady characters. I don't know what it would have been, but I, I know that I would have
4 (1h 5m 36s):
That you didn't feel. Yeah. I feel so bad for you that you didn't feel like you could, you know, go further, ask more. I don't know. Probably
2 (1h 5m 44s):
Carolyn it probably didn't occur to me. I'm sure it did. I'm sure. The way I thought about it was, well, this has happened now. It is over, this is the thing that it is forever such. I just, I would have never thought that way. I would have never thought to advocate for myself. I mean, I fought to find out,
4 (1h 6m 4s):
Snuck in there. You thought, well, enough of yourself to sneak in there,
2 (1h 6m 9s):
You know, whatever. That's that's for me to figure out because I, I, I that's what, but that's what I did with it. I, I took it. I took a carried it around like a shame instead of, oh, by the way, I didn't mean to blow anybody up. I just needed to say like, what's the deal? Like what happened happened, right. Yeah.
1 (1h 6m 29s):
I feel like it's interesting. It is. It is. It is just really, now that we have this podcast, we spend a lot of our time being like, well, yeah, what's the deal. Why did that happen? And, and what,
4 (1h 6m 41s):
I wonder what John Bridges or somebody like that would say about that.
2 (1h 6m 46s):
I I'm sure. John Bridges, who is a theater school loyalist to the end when say that, that I, that I misunderstood. He tells them he doesn't tell the truth. I'm saying, listen. And, and by that I've said a thousand times we understand that we couldn't possibly know all of the factors that went into any decisions like casting and stuff like that. And that there are certain things that happened. That felt terrible. That were for my own good, you know, but Yeah, because getting back to that whole thing about casting, I mean, I'm sure that the guiding principle in their minds was, this is what it's like, you know, you want to move to New York.
2 (1h 7m 33s):
I mean, Don, we had another person on here who told us living in New York. You, you you'd have to go wait in line in the morning at a theater so that you could get your audition later. And if you wanted to have, it had to be a lunchtime thing, so you could leave work. And those slots were on really early. And, and that it was just,
4 (1h 7m 55s):
And some friends who did get representation and then move to New York again, their parents like had money to pay for them to move to New York. And I moved in here and they ended up, you know, coming, coming back to Chicago because they, they weren't getting stuff and it's super expensive and stressful. And so, I mean, again, yes, there are things that happened that seemed, you know, dramatic and sad, but then I am glad, I guess that they, they happen. And then I ended up stabbing. Yeah. And then another casting story is that I was trying to remember everything I had done. And I only have five that I can remember, which is weird. Cause I know there should be six. And also that at the end of my senior year, when many of us senior women did not believe, you know, again, I was always a feminist.
4 (1h 8m 39s):
We did not believe we got, you know, good casting. We, it really the whole two years. And so we created our own show and did it in the courtyard. Oh, Do you remember? And invited the faculty and people came, oh, we, we created, it was devised. I mean, there was, there was stuff from John Vinitaly is the serpent. There was stuff from Sophie Treadwell's Maka. Now we had all of these easels set up in the courtyard that were empty. But what happened when we would walk up and stand in front of the easel as if we were all at a museum and each one we would look at would open up another scene. We had a lighting designer and a costume designer that also went to the school that were in our grade. That, that helped us do it. This is before email or anything. So we were putting posters up all over the school and the teachers were like, what is going on?
4 (1h 9m 21s):
What is this? And I think literally they were so curious. They could not believe we were doing this, that they all came because they were like, what are they doing? And we did it fricking shell. It showcased,
2 (1h 9m 32s):
We started a trend then, because a lot of people that we've talked to did that, I bet you guys were the first.
4 (1h 9m 38s):
I would love that. Oh yeah. It was 1992 baby. And I hope that we did start a trend. And that was before anybody said the word devised, almost everything I ever did was devised before anybody said that's what it was. Right.
2 (1h 9m 51s):
So you feel, you feel grateful that you stayed in Chicago. I mean, and that's why you got European rep maybe as, maybe now, do you want to get the hell out of there? Do you want to go?
4 (1h 10m 2s):
So why would I want to move to LA? I want to move to LA. I do. I want to try it. I want to live in the sunshine and one of my best friend lives there, she works for NPR and lives on Venice beach. She has a tiny house. I want to go live in her tiny house. We'll see. It might happen.
2 (1h 10m 18s):
Good. What, what, what are some of the, what are some of the heartbreaks of shows that you were going for in Chicago that you didn't get?
4 (1h 10m 34s):
I don't know. That's so funny because I have, I guess I've been focused so much on, on the theater school years. I kind of, oh, that's okay.
2 (1h 10m 42s):
And then what about for theater school? Do you remember a show that you really want?
4 (1h 10m 46s):
Well, got the one with the good, the Shantay, the good person upset Schwann, but actually the funny thing about it too, which I have to tell you because I, this was my initial, like best story, but you have to hear before we're done, there was a man named Stan who Joe Loic knew. And he got to be in the good person of such wine. And this was very controversial because having an outside person, but I think that's what they to do with the old Goodman. So I think he thought it was okay, but for some reason, you know, how they all have these crazy rules, like you couldn't leave the school to go audition for something else and all that. They, they also didn't want, you know, outside artists, you know, in our shows because they're not being trained in the same methodology or whatever.
4 (1h 11m 31s):
So this Standberry's who I've found in the DePaulia just now the, the way it was advertised. It said, you know, claimed rock star, Polish, rock star, Stan bullies. And so he was, he was a Polish rockstar that was in our show and would do the songs, the, you know, the Brechtian songs. So every time there was a Brechtian song, he would come, he would be, I remember one time with him on stage. Right. I can see it. So clearly him in this spotlight and some like long leather thing. And he had like long hair and a beard, like, you know, Jesus. And he's like singing the Brechtian song, Joe slow, like getting so excited and rehearsals.
4 (1h 12m 15s):
He punched the wall, like holes in the wall and would do like headstands and, you know, I mean, just seriously incredible, like the incredible feeling of even though I had, yeah. Cause he was trained in grotesque and he knew how to do all that stuff and was doing it until like very late in his life. But that just the feeling of being in that large movement room, working on that play. And like you said, like I'm, you know, just told myself in my head, okay. If I'm not Shantay that I'm gonna make this the best thing I've ever done. I just, I still felt very privileged that I was in the main stage show with Joe and I was fascinated by the stem, you know, just like, and I don't really remember what ended up happening.
4 (1h 12m 58s):
I mean, he did the, he did the show. I don't remember how much pushback, you know, he, he had, but I want it to be in a play called lock up your daughters, which actually was a musical that Betsy Hamilton directed. And so like many others on your podcast. I went to her office to ask her why the feck, she did not cast me when I was, was it a musical musical? It was a musical. Right. Okay. Musical. And she told me that, and this is where the kind of the methodology of the schools kind of amped up, right. That I was the best one and that I was the most appropriate. And the reason I didn't get it was because the other girl needed it more than me needed.
4 (1h 13m 42s):
The experience needed that. It's like, well, I'm in school too. I need it too. And, and she was a girl in the woman, not a girl. We were not go swimming. She was in the master's program of the first year. And this was before they did, you kind of had to wait till your second or third quarter in the masters. This was like first quarter of, of her, you know, being able to do anything at our school. And nobody really knew this person, like, who is she? Why is she? Yeah. And Betsy, who I loved, who I knew was my champion because I was also the first casting I got was my best casting. I was in working. I got to meet studs, Terkel. I got to sing with Patti LuPone.
4 (1h 14m 22s):
She came to our gala and sang with us and I held her hand. Somehow I ended up being right by her. And we did like the curtain call of the gala with Patti LuPone, singing that song. Oh, I know I was more famous when I was 18 than I am now,
2 (1h 14m 41s):
Which you're describing of, they gave it to this person for, you know, an unnamed pedagogical reasons. I wonder about that so much, because if you think about it, if you really tried to break it down, it's so subjective. Like you're telling me, you know, what a purse, I don't know. There's something that seems so like chutzpah about that, that you would say, I know what this person needs.
1 (1h 15m 10s):
And they went,
4 (1h 15m 13s):
It seems almost like a lie to make me feel better. But I also know Betsy didn't really know.
1 (1h 15m 19s):
Ah, I bet she totally wholeheartedly believe that. I think, look, I think adults, I mean, we were young adults, but I think older adults often wholeheartedly believe the shit they're saying to young people. And, and that's what makes it so hard is I think that she really believed that that for whatever reason, that woman needed that part more and yeah, there's just no actual,
4 (1h 15m 48s):
I would have to go back and look, but I think that was the last quarter. So I think that's when all my girlfriends and I decided to do that. I mean that show, I mean, it was Chrissy hall, Lisa Collie, Wendy Shamberg, I'm trying to remember if I can remember everybody. I can't remember everybody that was in,
2 (1h 16m 3s):
Are you still in touch with those people?
4 (1h 16m 7s):
Some of them, not all of them. When Lisa Kelly passed away, whenever that was now four or five years, six years ago, we had a Memorial for her at DePaul. And a lot of them came back for that. And I saw them. Then I also stayed in contact with Deborah King, who was the young whore and that old or young work thing. She was one of my roommates. She ended up, she, she lives in Washington state. She's like a yoga teacher for trauma. She's amazing. And she does step online now. So her and I have kind of caught back up. She's the one that I went to Alaska with. So in between my freshman and sophomore year, another girl in my class, Julian leaky, he had already worked at this small theater in Skagway, Alaska.
4 (1h 16m 51s):
And she's like, they need two other girls. You guys should come with me. And we, I actually think we made like a VHS tape of us or something and send it to them to audition. And we got cast and then we had to leave school two weeks early. And it was this whole thing where we had to do our final scene and David Polly's class early. They had to agree to let us go early. And I dunno how we got them to do it, but they, they, they let us go. And we went to Alaska for the summer and did a CanCan historical show about the gold rush. My name was squirrel tooth Alice. We lived in an old whorehouse that had red velvet wallpaper. It was the most astonishing thing I'd ever done.
4 (1h 17m 32s):
And I thought my whole life was going to be traveling the world, seeing new places doing play. Right. Cause that was what I was doing when I was in between my freshman and sophomore year. But it was an incredible experience. And it was all because of this, this girl, Julian , who was my roommate had had, she was from Provo, Utah. And somehow there was a lot of actors from Provo, Utah doing this show and Skagway, Alaska. And they just happened to need two more girls. And so we got, holy shit. That's such a, so these girls that I lived with in college also then, well we lived in the dorms and then after we came back from Alaska, we lived together for the whole last three years on the corner of Sheffield and Belden in this two bedroom where there was two people in one, two people in one and one person in the sunroom.
2 (1h 18m 18s):
That's a little thing about how you imagined you'd be doing that for the rest of your life. So many things that happened to us at a young age, you know, it's like, well, if this is happening to me, this is how it always happened.
4 (1h 18m 32s):
Oh, it is when you're a professional working actor. This is how it is.
2 (1h 18m 35s):
Yeah. But you didn't return to Alaska the following summer though.
4 (1h 18m 40s):
No, I can't. I, if it was an option or if we just decided to not go, I don't remember why I worked at cafe Roma and I was in the band ominous.
1 (1h 18m 55s):
We have to wrap up, but I want to say like, what do you, what do you, what are your dreams now? Like what's happening now?
4 (1h 19m 6s):
Well, I've, I've written a feature length film that I'm trying to get made. And anybody out there in podcast land wants to be a producer, have some funds for that. I'm also writing what I call a book. It is an anti memoir memoir, and it is based on the five non-speaking roles I played in my first show at Chicago Shakespeare in 2000 where I was both the understudy for Ghana real and Regan and knew both of their parts.
4 (1h 19m 47s):
And at one point had been in the costume for and then she showed up and they made me take it off and give a back door. I was supposed to go on for Regan the last two weeks, but then there was a stage, hand strike and she didn't end up having to go to do her next show. So she didn't end up leaving. So I never went on neither role, but they at Chicago Shakespeare, they would put your, they would tape your character name and masking tape on your mirror. So you knew when you went in your dressing room, which dressing room was yours. And I walked in and it said, lady slut, servant soldier. And that's the name of my memoir.
2 (1h 20m 27s):
I love it. Why is it an anti memoir? What does that mean?
4 (1h 20m 32s):
You don't, I don't know. I'm finding it out because I'm so I'm so adverse to believing that I could possibly write a book or that my story matters or that anybody would care that it's my it's probably like a defense it's also, you know, like I was saying to one of my writing partners, friends that, that I have to stop calling it a book because it's just too much, you know, like what, it's just some words on pages in together in an order because yeah, I, I might, I might not ever get it published or I might, nobody might ever read it, but that
2 (1h 21m 10s):
Doesn't like being a book. If it
4 (1h 21m 12s):
Doesn't get, I need to do it for me. So I've been writing it for a long time. I, I have another section of it. That's called how to cry in public tales of a hyper empath. And that was a performance piece. But now I'm realizing that like a lot of the performance pieces I've done and storytelling things that I've done as performative pieces can now be drawn back into the book.
2 (1h 21m 38s):
I love it.
4 (1h 21m 39s):
I love it. And I also want to move to LA and try to get a manager and, and do it for the Hills because I always, when I am in the 5 0 5 O category, which I am now, that that's when it was gonna really hit big for me and you know, and out that's what she thought too. She was about my, she was, you know, walking down the street and saw Elizabeth Perkins' name on the, on the marquee who was her classmate and was like, why is that not me? Why am I going to waitress? Oh, you know why? Because when I'm 50, it's going to happen for me. And that's exactly how to get hurt. You got to get her on here. I've tried talking about Sharon Gobert. She's in Brazil. You can find her on LinkedIn, get her on here.
2 (1h 22m 19s):
My hardest to get and out and out or people
4 (1h 22m 26s):
And doubt and doubt. You're saving my life right now.
5 (1h 22m 41s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: The 90s are back and so is Gina on the Adam McKay train, Joe Vs. the Volcano, Dan Hedaya, absurdism, hating the planet, Don't Look Up, #whatdosingleasianwomendoafterwork
Let Me Run This By You: putting yourself in a new and unfamiliar context, Michael Shannon's Red Orchid theatre, Wallace Shawn's Evening at the Talk House, asshole casting directors, wearing ear pieces, when Boz got a perm, Art and Science Hair Salon.
Interview: We talk to Jenna Ebersberger about growing up in LA, Columbia College, Second City, the Groundlings, Barbara Robertson, Wondery, My Favorite Murder
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi. We went to theater school
1 (12s):
Together. We survived it.
2 (14s):
He didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (22s):
And you will too. Are we famous yet? I mean, I think the bubble is going to burst a little bit, but I don't think it's going to pop all the way. Like, I don't think it's gonna be over over, but I just think that life is a series of bubbles popping. Right? It's like a series. I see. Everything is so cyclical. And the thing that actually funny enough made me see it truly is watching fashion styles. Right? So like the nineties are really in and I'm like cracking up at coworking and looking around. Cause a lot of my co-working cohort are wearing nineties clothes because they're young and I am just like, oh my God, I, I, it is unbelievable how the things that, and this happens to every generation.
1 (1m 15s):
I mean, we're, I'm not unique. I know this, but like, I'm like, oh, if you want to look at why things are, how things are cyclical, look at the fashion, like, look at what is happening. I make the huge, the mom jeans wide legs.
2 (1m 31s):
Right. But at the same time, how come like the forties haven't come back or the, or maybe they have, maybe they come back in little ways or the twenties I wanna, I want to, or the fifties, even you don't really here. You don't really see, I guess maybe the fifth, late fifties and early sixties had somewhat of a resurgence with mad men. And they did that whole co-branding with J crew. Oh wait, is J crew still a company?
1 (1m 53s):
Yeah, it is. I mean, I think they keep going bankrupt, but then they keep getting saved. So I know it's a company because I shop there at the outlets. So it's still around. I just don't know. They're always, and I think they're all owned by like the gap, right. Or like I had
2 (2m 10s):
UPMC.
1 (2m 12s):
So basically Michael Jackson's estate owns. Yeah.
2 (2m 15s):
Yes. Pretty much. I mean, I wouldn't be, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised. Okay. That leads me to this thing. I wanted to give you an update about, which is that I finally finished watching. Don't look up. Oh,
1 (2m 28s):
The MCAT
2 (2m 29s):
I'm back on the Adam McKay train. I thought it was a great movie. I give it a, give it a thumbs up. I completely understand. I've never read specific criticisms of it, but I completely understand that some people don't like it and it had kind of a sensibility to me, it kind of, it absurd a sensibility that a lot of people just don't care for it because it just feels too outside. Like I like a lot of things that get really panned when you know, the flops, like I liked Joe versus the volcano was a total commercial flight. Love
1 (3m 8s):
That movie. I think that movie is fucking brilliant. And I so good. I realized that I get a lot of my language from that movie in terms of, I go, I'm like, oh my God, she's such a flibbertigibbet
2 (3m 19s):
She's such a flibbertigibbet I have a t-shirt that says I'm not arguing that with you. And as a picture of Dan Hidatsa sitting at his desk, I mean that God, I challenge you to find a better piece of solo performance and phone acting than Dan in
1 (3m 38s):
Joe versus the
2 (3m 39s):
Brilliant. So good. Yeah. Go ahead. So, so, so don't look up. Yeah. It's well, it's absurd because it is absurd the way that we've completely trashed this planet in such a short period of time and also the way in which we're just, we, we both, we simultaneously know this and just keep doing all the same things that we've always done. Well, yeah. Even people who are climate warriors who are doing the most, I, I feel like it doesn't matter anymore. It's all over.
1 (4m 12s):
Yeah. I mean, I think that I just get this, this feeling that we're too late and maybe, and this is just always what I come down to. And I think it's easier for me because I, in some ways to say this, cause I don't have children, but like maybe this is supposed to be happening since it's happening. Like maybe we did this and then we have to face the consequences. Like we're always so used to being
2 (4m 44s):
Saved or having to face being
1 (4m 46s):
Saved by something or someone like, maybe this is it for us. And look, maybe there's another species that could come and do a better job. Like we, we can't be the only,
2 (5m 1s):
No girl, we cannot be the only ones. And what's funny about the, are you going to watch the movie? Don't look up? I don't want to spoil it for her. So yeah, the whole thing is about, there's a comment coming and the scientists are going to the president and they're trying to figure out how to spin it. And then what they finally come up with this, with this Steve jobs type character that the technology guy played to perfection by mark Rylance comes up with this technological solution to he's going to send these missiles. And they're going to attach themselves to the comment because, because, because the comment actually has this very precious metal that they need to, they need, of course.
2 (5m 41s):
So they it's like this thing where they send these 20 missile, drones, whatever they are that are supposed to attach themselves to the comment and then break it into pieces. It just lands in the ocean and doesn't hurt anybody. But of course it fails. And at the very last minute, Meryl Streep who plays president, her character gets into, she calls. She makes, she calls Leonardo DiCaprio's character and says, listen, we've got these eight pods and they fit four people a piece or something like that. And the idea is if you get in it, you know, it's something that's going to survive Armageddon. So he says, no thanks. And presumably it's just her.
2 (6m 22s):
And maybe this mark Rylance guy, the end of the movie shows 22,000 years later. And those pods land on the planet, I don't know, I guess it's earth, which has been repopulated with dinosaurs and all the pods land and everybody gets out and they they're all they're all girl. Yes. I would never have guessed that. But that's exactly what happened. But before that, what you notice is that everybody who gets out of the pods is all old white people. So that they're gonna, this is the people who are going to repopulate the really planet and then Meryl Streep's character gets dragged away by a pterodactyl.
2 (7m 3s):
Great. It was just beautiful. I just, I loved it. I absolutely
1 (7m 6s):
It's perfect. That's a perfect ending. Yeah. That's what way? Well, that is like crafted the hell out a story. That is correct.
2 (7m 14s):
Well, I mean, I think so. I think so. And, and, and I guess my thing is like, if you don't think so w if people think it's, so I guess that's what happens with, for me and absurd things is that I think what people don't like about it is it just feels too far fetched, but see, those, those things don't feel that farfetched to me. I mean, maybe it's not going to happen in exactly that way in these pods and then people landing down and they're all naked. Maybe it's not that they were naked. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't really, I guess it was supposed to be like the garden of Eden. It was supposed to be like, yeah, but something like that can and will happen. It may not look exactly like it did in this movie, but it's not really that absurd.
2 (7m 57s):
I guess that's the thing is like a lot of these absurd things are, it's not that it's heightened, but it's not that far off the mark. Do you know what I'm saying?
1 (8m 4s):
I know exactly what you're saying. And also look, I think, again, it comes down to psychology of, nobody wants to admit that we've done this to ourselves
2 (8m 15s):
Completely.
1 (8m 16s):
You, the human mind can not, can only take so much like truth. Right? We've done this. No, nobody did this to us. We did this, you know, I always think of, and this is just something that you said, but it was literally 2000. And I want to say around two, when you lived in Chicago, was it like 2007?
2 (8m 40s):
The second time? Yeah. 2000. Well, we moved there in 2004, and then we left in 2007.
1 (8m 51s):
Yeah. Okay. So it was, it was, it was right after, so it right around there right before you moved and I was at your apartment and, and we were talking about recycling and I was like, oh, do you guys recycle? And you're like, no, just put it over there. Aaron hates the environment. And it was, and he doesn't, and I'm not saying that he does or anything like that, but it was so funny. And I vow to say that all the time when I do something, because we all do it. That is not planet affirming. I go, oh, I hate the environment. That's like this movie, right. It's like absurd.
1 (9m 32s):
It's
2 (9m 32s):
Absurd. It's
1 (9m 33s):
Absurd. Has Aaron hates
2 (9m 36s):
It's the environment. Yeah. I used to say that all the time. I forgot about that. Well, and recycling is PS a complete and total joke. I mean, unless we did it the way that they do it in Japan were really resigned. They have 15 different bins and everybody's very responsible and yeah, it's because they're very community oriented, by the way. Have you seen these videos on Tik TOK that go like a single, a single woman, a single woman going home after work and they take, and I, I've only seen three of them and they, they seem to all be in Japan.
2 (10m 17s):
Okay. It's fascinating. I'm going to send one to you. So it's a meme, I guess, cause I've seen three different videos that have the same sort of idea, which is, it's a video of a woman coming home to her apartment at the end of her Workday going inside. And then what happens next is a series of probably a hundred very complex, but, but maybe not even that complex, but like very prescribed steps that they do when they get home. So this one, she gets home. She immediately puts her shoes in this place that she immediately cleans off. And then she puts on these slippers that have been sitting in a antibacterial chamber and then she, and then she makes herself a full three course meal.
2 (11m 6s):
But using all of these machines, I've never seen before. It's a bunch of, it's a bunch of like put this thing to this machine. I am not doing justice describing it. I've put, puts for glasses into a sanitizing tray. I mean, it just like on the one hand, I think, wow, what an impeccable order to your life. In the other hand, I think what a prison, you have to do that every single time I'm going to send it to you because I, I be curious to know what your thoughts are.
1 (11m 38s):
I've seen like snippets of that. And I, I, haven't watched a little thing, so I'd love to watch the whole thing, but yeah, I know what you're saying in terms of it's, it's insane. And yet it serves some purpose and I'm sure it probably keeps her cleaner and also sick lists. I don't know.
2 (12m 5s):
Right. And also like one of the things that seems so unrealistic for, if it was me as a single person, I would never, as a single person come home and cook myself a full meal, like I would come home and eat cheese and crackers and have an apple and call it a day. Right. But maybe this adherence to a structure, both feels, makes her feel less alone, you know, more connected to like her culture or whatever. And like, maybe it's much better self care
1 (12m 36s):
Maybe. Yeah. Maybe this is self care. Yeah. The other thing that I've seen that are similar, and I do believe it's been from Japan as well, are the beauty routines in the morning before work.
2 (12m 47s):
Okay. Like involved and there's like 40
1 (12m 50s):
Steps. I, I, it is awe and awe inspiring, but also both like what she looks great. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not knocking that, but it literally the steps, maybe 40 steps. There's like all kinds of creams and sabz and lotions and buffing. And then I lashes and make, and then that's just that. And then the makeup and the hair, it literally, it looks like, I mean, she probably has it down to it like a really fast routine. But if I tried that it would be like four hours and then I would never leave disaster.
2 (13m 30s):
I never look as good as, yeah. I know. I think about that a lot with the whole beauty thing. Like when I see somebody who does that, I have so much respect and appreciation for like the amount of dedication that it takes to do that. I just can't bring myself to get excited about that. When I watched the real Housewives, I realized that like, they, they have to do that. This is their thing. This is the thing that they offer to the world. I'm not saying it is their only talent or is their only value. I'm just saying like, for whatever reason, it's been decided that this is their commodifiable resource.
2 (14m 13s):
Right. And they got
1 (14m 15s):
Like the Kardashians. I mean, they are, that's, their job is to look a certain way and like newscasters in some way to talk about this. And like, I'm not knocking it. I just think it's a bad career fit for me. It's that
2 (14m 32s):
It would never
1 (14m 33s):
Work being a flight attendant for me was probably be a terrible or yeah. Something, something where I'd have to do that. Not a good fit, not a good fit, a good
2 (14m 42s):
Fit
1 (14m 52s):
First time guests on somebody else as else's podcast. And it was so interesting to watch a host. And it was only like 20 minutes. It was like so short compared to our, and he talks about that compared to our podcasts, which is long, but it was interesting. It was like, it was like just interesting to watch the whole thing go down. I had so many feelings of like, oh, I wish we had longer. Oh, this is fun. Oh yeah. Okay. It just, all the things, you know, cause we're never interviewed, right?
2 (15m 32s):
Yes. We're never interviewed. And I was pretty impressed with how, how well, I mean, being able to package something into a, into a smaller package is, is a skill that people need to have when you have a product essentially, that you're trying to sell. I was worried about my ability to condense anything that I wanted to say into something that, you know, but we both did beautifully with that.
1 (16m 0s):
We're actors. I mean, look, this is acting, we were trained to do this. Like if you stand on stage and you don't deliver your lines in a, in a way that is like somewhat cohesive, right. Or like, I don't know. Interesting. You're never, it you're going to be kicked right off the stage. Like I'm at the Apollo style. So like when push comes to shove, I do feel like actors, especially yeah. Actors, but humans too will do the thing they need to do. Like when push comes to shove, most of us, some of us freeze and then it's like a whole, and I love those moments because that's like my fear.
1 (16m 42s):
Right. So when that actually happens, not to me, but when that happens to other people like watching that on television, you know, that's what we watch when people freeze and everything goes haywire. I live for those moments. I don't want them to happen to me, but I,
2 (16m 59s):
So I was thinking of you and I forgot to tell you about this. I went to see that play with ed, Ryan shadow ed, Hey,
1 (17m 7s):
Hey, he's also my buddy this month. So I we've been, we've been talking about
2 (17m 10s):
That's right. So we went to see this play and it was in previews. And in the first 10 minutes, what happened? This, I just saw this woman just completely go off on her lines. And she was in a scene with one other person. And so the other person said, well, what about, you know, and weren't you telling me that worked for a little while. And then she was just so lost. She was just so
1 (17m 40s):
She was panicking inside or was she just like, I don't know what's happening.
2 (17m 46s):
I can't imagine how she wouldn't be panicking, but at the same, she did not look like she was panicking. Interesting. And, and I heard something that I've never heard before the stage manager came over the God mic and gave her her line. Wow. I don't know why she didn't have an earpiece. Right. If this was a problem with,
1 (18m 4s):
Maybe it wasn't like maybe she had been doing great. Like maybe it was the first preview.
2 (18m 10s):
I'm actually not sure which previously, I didn't know. It was previews until after.
1 (18m 16s):
Wow. And she
2 (18m 17s):
Was an older woman. So I've, that's one thing I've heard. I've in fact, I have asked people to be in stuff that they've said no to, because they feel they're too old to memorize a lot of lines for a play.
1 (18m 28s):
Yeah. I mean, that is a real thing too. Like I, your memory. So I think partially what happens to me too and why I'm so not keen to be an actor anymore is that as I go through menopause, my memory gets weird, mixed with anxiety mixed with, I mean, it's a whole plethora, but I, I respect people that are like, oh, memorization. Not for me. You know? Like,
2 (18m 53s):
Yeah. Rather than putting yourself in that position,
1 (18m 56s):
You know, like I was in a play, this is fantastic. So I was at a play at the, at the amazing red orchid theater, which is the Michael Shannon, you know, anyway. So I was in a play. I was actually the understudy, but I went on a bunch and the lead actor literally had the Wallace, Shawn play evening at the talk house. So really, but his Mo his whole, the, we opened on the guy speaking for like five minutes. And it is all
2 (19m 27s):
A Sean special. Yeah. He loves that.
1 (19m 29s):
And so this actor had an earpiece and I, at first I was really judgmental about it, but what he did was he didn't use it through the whole thing, but he used it throughout rehearsals to just hear it and hear it. And then it was like training wheels. He took it off, but he did wear it, I think, during a preview. And you could hear it. That wasn't the good thing. That's not a good, that took me out. And I just told the stage manager because I was in the audience, you know, during dresses and stuff. And I just said, Hey, like, I just want to let you know. And she said, oh, he does this all the time. He'll take it off before opening buddy up so great for him.
1 (20m 9s):
But I people use them all the time. Pachino uses them, like people use them.
2 (20m 14s):
And then there's the whole other problem that we were hearing about when we heard Kay. Talk about going on, you know, in Andrew, please. And then the, the thing is if you're not used to getting prompted by an ear mic, like a newscaster is, then, then it's very confusing
1 (20m 30s):
When you look crazy. Because really, I mean, I, so, so yeah. And I've had auditions where, oh my gosh, this was where I thought it, it turned out everyone had this problem. But the thing about auditioning is you think it's just you. So like, unless you talked to the other auditioners later, whatever. So, so there was an audition, a commercial audition where they were like, you will have the copy up on a board, right? Like on. And so don't remember you don't and it didn't actually give us the copy right in, before we show up the person running the audition was this woman who's no longer in the business.
1 (21m 13s):
Who's a giant asshole. And she had the thing up, but it was so much, it was written teeny. You couldn't read. That was the first problem. And I didn't have glasses cause my parents are assholes and they never gave me glasses. So I couldn't see. And also there was a tremendous amount of action we were supposed to be doing while it was ho Larry's. So I couldn't get it. Like I couldn't get it. And by the end she was like, that's great. You got it. And I didn't, I walked out and I burst into tears and I was because I was looking and I called my agent. She's like, don't worry about it.
1 (21m 53s):
Then I'm waiting for the bus. This is in Chicago. And I see another actress in tears coming out and I said, oh my God, did you audition? She goes, yes. I go, oh my God. It's not us. And then it turns out we all got online and started talking about it. Cause it's, there's like a Chicago actors group. And they were like, who's just that blah, blah, everyone. She made everyone cry because you couldn't read the raw. And the person who ended up, she's no longer the business. She got her ass kicked out. But the, but the purse should the casting director, but the person who booked it ear piece had an ear piece. So how did not in the onset.
1 (22m 36s):
Okay. Yeah. So she later we found out the person, the woman, Gail, who booked it had, I know her she's amazing. But she said they had to do an earpiece. Literally it was folding laundry, cutting coupons, doing all these things while this huge monologue, like maybe, I don't know, like, like three minutes of dialogue, straight up to the camera and it was a completely cold read. They didn't give you any sense. No wonder why. Cause she's an idiot. She is an idiot. This casting director was terrible. She's not in the business. She was not a big cast. She was like, she was also so rude. She was like, well, I don't understand the problem. Just relax.
1 (23m 17s):
No, no, no. So I love that, that you guys all then like got together. I mean, this is the thing that happens, right. Is that actors just feel alone. And I wrote, I saw her, I was at the bus stop and I saw this woman coming out, who I vaguely knew at the time at crying. And I said, oh my God, I just have to ask you, are you just in that commercial audition? And she goes, yeah, it was horror. I said, oh my God, girl, girl, I got to tell. And then I made her feel better. She made me feel better than we became friends. And then we talk shit about the lady for awhile called her agents. And it was fine. And our agents were like, fuck that lady. You know? So it works out. But man, it was traumatizing. I was like, okay.
2 (23m 57s):
Oh, of course it was. That just makes me think about how many things in this world rely upon people. Not having all of the information like this person. We're not for the ability of the actors to coalesce and talk about something she did wrong. She would probably still be in this position. And a lot of things do seem to rely upon like people not figuring out something. Like, I think about this in terms of things that people are selling. And I think, you know, like I don't have a specific example, but I know that just yesterday I was thinking, oh, this whole model relies upon people. Not realizing that they, if they just did this, they could do it for free.
2 (24m 38s):
Right. You know? And I hate that kind of, I hate that kind of making a buck like I'm okay with hustling to make a buck. But if your whole thing is propped up by the lie, that, that actually, if the person just, you know, pressed F seven, they would never have to pay you 39, 99 a month.
1 (24m 58s):
Just copy and paste. You're fine. Like you don't. That is so true. There's so many things like that. I got to say like everybody I'm wearing these noise, canceling headphones. They're so heavy that like, I'm getting hurts. I have to, I, you can't see me, but I'm doing these neck rolls. I've never had headphones like this. I literally feel I'm underwater, but that's okay.
2 (25m 18s):
Yeah. After you have to take them off after a while. Cause they, they start to hurt your ears.
1 (25m 22s):
I mean, I literally, which reminds me of when we were in college, Don Elko, our acting teacher member had us do a physical change exercise. Right. We had to physically drastically change something about our physical appearance. Do you remember this? Oh, everyone had to do people, shaved their heads for me. I thought, okay, I'm good. I didn't know what to do. So I mean, it's a stupid exercise. I, I gotta be honest. Like you, it doesn't matter like who it was just to see what people would do. I think he did that and good for him. I mean, he could do whatever you want, but like you had to radically physically change something about your physical appearance for like three months or something.
1 (26m 7s):
It wasn't like forever or whatever. It's called physical change. I remember. And never was like, oh, what are you going to do for your physical change? What did you do it? Well, this reminds me. I thought, oh, this will be great. I'll get a, I'll get a perm. Okay. So I go to this hair salon. First of all, I have such thick hair that they had to put it in.
2 (26m 27s):
Take your seven hours
1 (26m 29s):
That they've had to put it into three sets of rollers, which are heavy. I couldn't lift my head out of the bowl. So then they had to get assistance to come and lift my head. My head weighed like 20 pounds. Right. And they were like, this is not, this is a terrible idea. But I was like, I'm screwed. I don't even, I already have wavy hair. It's not that big of a change. Who gives a fuck. It costs $300 in 1990, whatever. So at art and science in Chicago, and then I don't remember. So, okay. They lifted my head up. It was a nightmare. I took like five hours. And then, and then the thing lasted maybe a day.
1 (27m 10s):
I don't know what happened because you,
2 (27m 11s):
Maybe you washed it too
1 (27m 12s):
Fast or something. I don't know what happened, but it LA it was the biggest waste of money that I had time. And, but anyway, my head was, I've never been in a position where my head was so heavy that I couldn't move it on my own.
2 (27m 29s):
I'm it must've been because I remember I did my tattoo the summer between Today and the podcast where you're talking to Jenna ever's burger in her own words, Janet adverse burger is a smoky voice. Sketch comedy actress turned TV writer. She writes dark comedies that center around female anti-heroes and she is the voice of ads on the wondering podcast. So please enjoy our conversation with Jenna. Amherstburg Sure that Everence burger.
2 (28m 9s):
Congratulations. You survived theater school Is sheer first Columbia grad. I feel like you might be afraid.
1 (28m 23s):
We only have had someone that teaches there. Jennifer. Yeah.
2 (28m 28s):
Jen Kober actually Jen Kober. Right? Didn't she get kicked out or she got kicked. Somebody who got DePaul graduated from there. But,
1 (28m 36s):
And I don't even know if Jen Kober graduated from Columbia, but maybe she did anyway. Sorry. If you're listening, she's not listening. She doesn't give him a spot.
2 (28m 45s):
Okay. So, but you're in LA. You're originally from LA. You went to college in Chicago and now you're back,
3 (28m 51s):
Correct? Correct. Yes. I
2 (28m 53s):
Feel like you made the right.
3 (28m 54s):
You know what? Well, it's funny when I like growing up in LA, I grew up around Hollywood, like everyone's dad or mom was like in the business and I was like, you know what, I'm, I'm going to be a real theater actor. Like I'm going to, I'm gonna study and be like, whatever,
1 (29m 14s):
Terrible idea, terrible idea.
3 (29m 17s):
Right. Like one already then. But yeah. So that's why I chose Chicago is one of my reasons was I was like, well, it's such a great theater town. And you know, so I'm just going to do it. I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave this place behind. So now we're back.
2 (29m 33s):
But, but now you're back because now presumably you came back because it's really hard to live in Chicago. I mean, unless you, even if you really love it, it's hard to live there. Right. It's cold.
3 (29m 45s):
I mean, my first year in Chicago being an LA gal, I had no idea how to dress. So I got pneumonia because I didn't understand layering. And so I wore like boots and got like wet feet, Bog boots. Yeah. Cause I was like, these are fine. Like these are warm. Not realizing that like they soak up, you know, water. So, so my first year I was like, holy crap, what am I doing here? W I don't know how to do this, but I actually, I stayed in Chicago for like almost 10 years and I love Chicago.
3 (30m 25s):
I love it. It was one of those things. So I started kind of pivoting into writing. And, and that's when I was like more, there's more opportunities in LA, you know, all the writing rooms are basically in LA. And so that was the bigger decision. Moved back to LA.
1 (30m 45s):
Forgive me, my, if my internet goes wonky, we've got like, it's crazy. We have two people working here and you'd think there was like a whole team of NASA trying to me and my husband. Ridiculous. Anyway, but, so I was telling beans how I know you and how I know you is we were both at Shirley Hamilton and they asked me if I would come in and read, because they were short staffed. And I came in and read, and you were doing a thing for a Disney movie or pilot, and you were so good. I was like, oh my gosh, I hope she books us as she should book everything. And then we kind of stayed in touch. And then I must have reached out to you like a real weirdo when I lived here.
3 (31m 27s):
I honestly don't know if it was you or if it was me, like, I, I don't know.
1 (31m 33s):
'cause, I'm always the weirdo. So that's better. I'm not in this case.
3 (31m 37s):
Yeah. But yeah, I think we were just like, cause I maybe reached out to you cause I'm still looking like I'm still acting. And so I was like looking for an agent out here and I think I was just like, I know you help.
2 (31m 52s):
Yeah. Yeah, no, that's what you have to do. You have to literally, you have to do call upon every single person that you've ever known. So, but you want it to be a serious theater actress. And, and I, what I know about you now is that you came a sketch comedy writer. So like what happened there?
3 (32m 9s):
Well, what's so funny is like, comedy has always been my thing. Like my first play ever, I played a French boy. It was like a French boy that was like the comic relief. And so like, comedy has always been number one thing, but I fell in love with Shakespeare when I was in high school, my theater, my high school theater teacher, Mr. Whalen, love him, amazing guy, a big Shakespeare guy. And actually my tattoo is I have a Hamlet tattoo on my wrist.
1 (32m 45s):
That's awesome.
3 (32m 47s):
Four scene, five of Hamlet when Ofelia goes crazy or, you know, mad. And she says, we know what we are, but no, not what we may be an 18 year old may was like, right. Yeah. I don't know what I'm going to be. So, so that's kind of where the seriousness came in. My Mr. Wayland was, he introduced me to UDL Haagen. I mean, he introduced me to it all, you know, Sam shepherd and all the serious and whatnot. And so that was, that was the decision was, I was like, I want to do theater. I don't want to do TV. I want to do theater.
3 (33m 28s):
And I did. It was great.
1 (33m 32s):
Well, how did you pick Columbia? Like, were you like, I'm going, yeah.
3 (33m 35s):
And she picked Columbia. God will actually, that is like such a different story. That's the sad, like
1 (33m 43s):
A
3 (33m 43s):
Boy. It involves my, my high school sweetheart. It's a very long story, but basically my high school sweetheart and I had made a pact and we were like, we're going to go to college together. But he was a year younger than me. And so we had decided like, oh, like we both like wanted to go to Chicago. And so I was like, great, I'll go first. And I had, like, I had applied to Northwestern, didn't get in and got into Columbia. Totally forgot about DePaul, by the way. Like I knew about her. I knew about DePaul anyway. So that's why that was kind of like, I mean, if I'm being honest, like the real reason that I was like, I'm going to go.
3 (34m 25s):
And then he broke up with me two weeks later. It was tragic.
2 (34m 29s):
I was shocked. I did not expect that part in the story where you actually went from, broke up with you two weeks after you moved to another state. No.
1 (34m 39s):
Well, he didn't die. He didn't die. Right. Okay. Good.
2 (34m 45s):
Okay. So, so, so you go to Columbia college and you're planning to be a serious actress, but then they had a whole bunch of like comedy offerings in terms of courses. Is that
3 (34m 57s):
Yeah, so, well, funny enough when I first went to Columbia, I was not a theater major. My dad, my dad basically said in his nicest way possible, like I won't pay for it. So you should do something else and like audition for the plays. So when I first went to Columbia, my major was broadcast journalism and my minor was theater. And then I was miserable my first, my first year with the pneumonia included. But I took, I took a scene study class second semester of freshman year with Kenesha foster. If you guys know Kenny,
1 (35m 38s):
She's the reason I add, I went to two Stevens. And then, and then when she left Stevens college Kenesha, when she got fired, I quit the school.
3 (35m 50s):
I could, yes. I, I, she's amazing. I mean, like, I, I kid you not like she reignited that like passion for theater for me. And so I switched, so I switched my major to theater and then had my minor be journalism and, and it was great. And then I found out that Columbia was offering something called comedy studies, which is a semester over at the second city. And I was like, oh my God. And I didn't think I was going to get in, but I applied. And it was like, it was like applying, you know, basically to college all over again. And I got in. And so I, that was my junior year.
3 (36m 33s):
So that was fall semester of my junior year. And that, I mean, that changed the game. Like I had. Wait, did you have Jen Ellison? Yes. I sure did. Oh,
1 (36m 43s):
She's our buddy.
3 (36m 46s):
Yeah. I freaking love Jen. Jen is amazing. They're all amazing. Like I had jet Eveleth was one of our teachers. I mean, it was just such an amazing experience and it really did. It like changed the game for me. Cause I was like, oh, it was dabbled in it. Oh. As the comic relief always had fun, you know, doing that. But then it was like the history of comedy and like really immersing myself. It was a whole, it was like a study abroad basically. So I only went to second city for a whole semester. It was freaking amazing. And, and litter as like the whole, like the mama, the queen of it, she started it and it was, yeah, it changed everything in that.
3 (37m 28s):
Who is that? Who started it? I'm sorry. And Libera. She, she, she, so she started comedy studies, married to Kelly led. Correct. Who
1 (37m 40s):
Started, who was also right.
3 (37m 43s):
Okay, great. Right. And so that's where I learned to write sketches though. And that's where I started to pivot into writing was through comedy studies. But, but yeah,
2 (37m 58s):
So this is an interesting question because, because a theater conservatories do the same thing, they teach you acting, but then you've learned the history of dramatic literature. I mean, you're meant to learn that. And you, you study sort of the complete all, all aspects of theater. I think that's good, you know, in terms of having a well-rounded person, but I'm curious to know what you think about that in terms of comedy, like how much did it enhance your education to be doing the history of comedy and taking a more academic approach to it, then you might have,
3 (38m 34s):
I'm a big old nerd anyway. Like I love reading and like history was always like my best subject, other than theater. And I think it really helped. I like it like opened up so many doors for me to be like, oh, and this is why we are. And like, this is how this developed, and this is how we can also develop from like an idea or, you know, like watching something that inspires you. Like, what does that mean? Oh, I can go into this route. I don't know if I'm making any sense. It meant a lot to me,
1 (39m 10s):
You know, what's interesting is like, I think it's interesting to study the history of something that you actually give a fuck about versus yeah. So like comedy, I actually, that sounds fun. Study the history of college courses studying for me, the history of film when I did it in grad school, before I dropped out was I found it interesting about 10% of the time, because I actually don't give, I don't actually care about the art of filmmaking as much as I care about like the history of like funny women and yes. Like that would be fantastic. Yeah. So, okay. So that sounds real.
3 (39m 49s):
Exactly. Yeah. That was, that was like, for me, exactly that like the funny women, like I was like, wow. So they haven't really been given a chance, like, you know, like realizing like how far we haven't come. Like, you know, or like how far we've come, but like how there's barely any time between, like, you think it's so long ago that like, you know, women weren't allowed to do it's it's been like this amount of time, like no time at all.
2 (40m 23s):
Yeah. By the way, is that Doris snoring? Sorry. I can hear . No, no. That's okay. No, but learning about the history of women doing anything. I mean, since she has a first day of black history month, it's the same as learning about the history of black Americans that you've just never heard of before. You're like, wow. How did all of this just wide swath of information never come my direction. It's wild. Okay. So you, so I'm guessing that while you were doing that, you were really seeing yourself as a sketch performer, a second city sketch performer, but you didn't stay in Chicago forever.
2 (41m 6s):
So what happened?
3 (41m 8s):
Well, it's funny because when you any kind of sketch comedy or Eddie, you know, cause I'm in the Groundlings out here in LA it's, it's a little culty, like it's not in a bad way, but like it's like a community, right. So you get really sucked in. And so I did, I got really sucked in to second city because I enjoyed it so much. And like, I felt like I'm good at this. So I, should you like what? I'm good at something I should probably keep doing it. But yeah. I don't know. I, I got an agent from my senior showcase at Columbia, so I immediately had an agent after graduation, which was great. So I, I did start auditioning, you know, for other things, which was fabulous, but it was interesting, the things that I was auditioning for through my agent, you know, Chicago med, Chicago PD, Chicago, ju just all the Dick Wolf shows
1 (42m 7s):
Comedy. There was no competition
3 (42m 10s):
And I kid you not there's one, I almost booked, I think it was med Chicago med. I was basically on call. Like it was like the night before. And I was like waiting to hear if I like booked it. Cause I had a director session or whatever. And it was a role of a girl who she comes in. They think she's drunk, but really we find out later she has, oh crap. Now I'm forgetting what it is with the ticks. What is it when it's Lyme's disease?
1 (42m 43s):
Oh, I think that verbal tone.
3 (42m 49s):
And I was like, thinking, it was like, why did I get so far with this? And I was like, oh right. Because it was kind of funny. Like it was like kind of a funny role. And I had like, I had gotten callbacks and stuff before, but I had never gotten that far. And I was like, right, because it's funny. And I was like, I don't think there's any, I don't know. Like, like at the time I moved at the end of now Mike cat screaming
1 (43m 14s):
That's okay. We're just having a animal day theme.
3 (43m 19s):
So I left, I moved to LA at the end of 2018. And at that time it was, it was still just all the drama, Dick Wolf shows. And I'm like, I don't know I've been going at this for a little while. And I just don't know if I'm going to book any of these things. Like, I just don't know if this is, if I am this kind of network drama actor. So maybe I'll go somewhere that has a little more variety in terms of TV. Cause I was, I was doing well with theater and stuff. Like I was working in theaters and, and all that.
1 (43m 51s):
What about like the second city route? Like, were you not like in terms of finishing the kids, did you, did you do all the levels and then like, okay, so why not stay there and try to get on the main stage and all that crap where you were like, I'm outta here?
3 (44m 5s):
Well, that's hard. So
1 (44m 9s):
The truth. Tell us, you don't have to say why was, why is it hard?
3 (44m 15s):
Well, I think it is like I was saying, it's a community. It's a little and it's a little favorites. There's favorites. Oh, so politics, politics. But I will also say I'm not blaming this on anybody else. I also was 21 and perhaps, you know, not very mature and like taking things as seriously as, as I think I would now, you know? So it became, I got really discouraged. So I did the conservatory. I finished that in a year, which I was, yeah. So I didn't have to repeat anything, which I was like, again, I was like, Ooh, like, great, good for me.
3 (44m 55s):
I kind of wish I was made to repeat some things. Maybe. I don't know, because then my ego, I was like, right. I was like, I finished the conservatory without having to repeat anything. I should be on Torco. I should be on the boats. I should, whatever. And I just didn't have very good auditions for the generals because I get very nervous. And again, I truly think I was very young and you know, with time comes wisdom. But like at the time I was just like, stupid, stupid, bad. You're bad. Like you didn't get it right away. Therefore you're bad. And it's just like, that's just not how it goes.
3 (45m 36s):
That is not, I, no one else believed that anyone listening do not believe that.
2 (45m 41s):
Yes. Right. Right. Well, you may have been immature in that way at that time, but at the same time, your understanding about what you just said about maybe you're not leading dramatic actor in the Dick Wolf universe, that requires a huge degree of self-awareness. How much, or how little did the college experience put you in a position to understand who you were?
3 (46m 7s):
Yeah. I mean, I absolutely love Columbia. I think they did such a beautiful job of preparing all of us for what it's really like. I mean, I'm telling you, like, that's why, like I, I left the gates, like just like running. Cause we had Barbara Robertson, if you know, Barbara, she had like a senior survival class where like we do mock auditions. We do mock call that, you know, interviews. And it was just so helpful because you could say, okay, you know what I like for me, I love musicals, but I'm not a singer.
3 (46m 48s):
And so like quickly, I was like, ah, like watching the other musical theater people going, ah, I could do it a little bit, but not to the extent that needs, it needs to be done. And it was just like, like college was like, the conservatory is such a comfy environment to realize those things, you know, like there was so many people being like that's okay, because
1 (47m 13s):
You're way younger than we are. What year did. Cause this sounds like the greatest school ever.
3 (47m 17s):
And what year were you there? I was there. I, I was started fall of 2009 and then I graduated a semester early. So I was, I December of 2012, but, but basically 2013 is
1 (47m 36s):
Great. So just recent. I just want to, it sounds like Columbia has really stepped up in terms of, of preparing the students for graduation, which I want to say Bravo. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.
2 (47m 55s):
Okay. So when you decided to move back to LA, what was your, what was your intention? How did you see that this next chapter going and, and how, how is that going? Is it is actually sort of going the way you,
3 (48m 13s):
It is in some ways it definitely is in some ways. And then other ways it's like, oh, it's tough. So it's funny. I, I wrote a web series kind of pilot thing with my friends in 2018 and we crowdfunded and then we made it and then we had meetings for it. Like we were shopping it and it was such a, I was like, wow, like I could do this. Like I could, I could write my own stuff and act in my own stuff and look at like, this is my first thing. And I'm already taking meetings. I should go and do that. And so when I moved out here, it's so funny.
3 (48m 55s):
Cause I was like, I think LA is just going to like me better. Like I think LA is just like, cause I'm from there, like they have comedy, like it's just going to be my place. And I have to say, I don't think that's necessarily incorrect. I've gotten a lot of really cool opportunities since being out here. I would say like the acting stuff has been the toughest at that has been the hardest nut to crack because I'm really struggling to find like an agent out here, even with like all, you know, all of this stuff on the resume, it's just a bigger pool. And so, so that was not surprising.
3 (49m 37s):
I knew it wasn't going to be easy, but I think in terms of like my writing and my voiceover work, that's been great. That's been like, I got it. We're hustling feeling good. Wait. So
1 (49m 49s):
For, for those people, I mean, you, I don't know if you could talk about it, but you're the voice. One of the voices on one jury. Right. Are you still doing that? No.
3 (49m 58s):
Okay.
1 (49m 59s):
Are you able to talk about that? I didn't want to make, I don't want to start talking. Okay. Because you have a great voice and wonder is one of my favorite things of all times. So how did you land one dream and then
3 (50m 10s):
Yeah, the funny again, I love it. Funniest story. So I'm a huge fan of the podcast. My favorite murder because you know who isn't and I was, I was on a Facebook group called like, like my favorite murder, LA Merinos and this girl named Allie, she like posted being like, Hey, I work for Wondery, I'm looking for local voiceover talent to do like a few spots, like Bo bop. And so I jumped on it and I like Facebook messaged her. And I gave her my real, I gave her my demo reel and she booked me and it was like, she was, and she's so kind, I freaking love her, but that was, we started November, 2019 and it's still going and I work weekly.
3 (50m 59s):
Like I work all the time and
2 (51m 1s):
Love that. And I also love, because I know most of the marinas are female. I love the idea that it always gets proven over and over again is that whenever women kind of join together and view what they're doing as you know, a rising tide lifts all boats and you know, when somebody does something, it's a feather in all of our caps, like the more people can embrace that idea instead of the opposite, which is kind of how we're trained to be, which is, you know, call the competition and, you know, get everybody else out of your way. It is it's, it's completely unnecessary. What was the competition factor like at Columbia
3 (51m 38s):
Competition at Columbia? I have to say it was, it felt pretty easy breezy, you know? Cause we're not a conservatory, you know, necessarily it's like anyone can take whatever class and I mean, you know, obviously you have your concentration and you know, when you have a BFA, it's a little more, you have to take certain classes. But in the sense of like, I just, everyone was like very, in my experience, very loving and very like supportive. Obviously there was some tensions, I think a little bit more on like musical theater land because my, my, my roommate was in that world and yeah.
3 (52m 19s):
And, but still they were still all friends and it was what it was. But yeah, I, I just don't really have any memories of like really being like pissed or like being like, oh, I got to get it over, blah, blah, blah. It was kind of like you auditioned, it happened if it happened and maybe that's just me.
2 (52m 42s):
Oh, it could be. I mean, it could be, you just bring that energy to things you do at Columbia. How does it work? I mean, so our, our frame of references, every term you're in the show and you just do a, an audition kind of, I mean, you, you audition for the individual shows, but there's, it's almost like a casting. I mean, it is, it's a casting pool. You audition generally speaking. And then the directors, you know, talk it out for who they want to cast, but how did it work at Columbia? Did you do a show? Every,
3 (53m 14s):
I did not do a show, like a show show every term I'm trying to remember. It wasn't like that. Like were like you, you auditioned and then they kind of picked it's like you audition for each individual show. What was cool was there were the directing majors that had kind of their different levels of shows. So they would do like one acts. And then like when they were older, you know, would do a full play or yada yada. And so there was a lot of opportunity. It wasn't just like the four main, big shows. And maybe that's why it felt like it wasn't too much of a competition because there were those directing shows as well.
3 (53m 56s):
And so I don't know, I, I didn't do a show, a term. I did at least one big one a year and then like little stuff all year round, you know, like be at a one act, be it like we had like 24 hour play festival, you know, like fun stuff like that as well. But
1 (54m 17s):
I feel like, I feel like that Columbia has the sense of, and maybe I'm just making this up in my head, but like of being like the scrappier version of a conservatory, like w and that was my experience because we used to hang out at the Merle reskin, doing our shows right around from where Columbia was. And so we, and I always, and, and people would poopoo Columbia, but I always often was like, oh, they actually seem like they're working. Like, I don't know what they're doing, but they're like living their lives. And it's like the scrappy city school. And from what I hear, like, there's less, maybe it's maybe it is about you.
1 (54m 59s):
Maybe you don't breathe it. No, I'm like, maybe you don't breed. Like that's not your jam is the competition weirdness vibe, which is great. But like I did for the most part here that it wasn't as cutthroat fame, like as a DePaul and some of the other conservatories that we've talked to. And I'm wondering also if that has to do with the fact that I'm a huge proponent of this, of the teachers being, working artists all the time. Right? Like that is the thing, when your instructors are doing the thing you want to do, I think they become more peer, like, meaning they can say, Hey, dude, do this. And then you'll succeed.
1 (55m 39s):
Did you, did you keep, did you love your teachers? Did you keep in touch with your teachers or your classmates? How,
3 (55m 45s):
Oh, yeah. I mean, and I will say one of the things when I first decided to go to Columbia, I'm not going to lie at first. I was like, this is not the school experience I wanted. Like, I wanted that like TV university, like enclosed campus, which is why I had applied to Northwestern. So I'm not going to lie at first. I was kind of bummed because I was like, this is, this is a city school where it's also like, you're dropped in and you're like, you're an adult, you're an artist do it. But I think that's why at, in the end, I'm so grateful for it because it was right off the bat. Like I'm going to rip the bandaid off.
3 (56m 26s):
This is how it goes. Be prepared, be ready if you're not that's on you. Like, and it was pretty cool, but I loved all of my teachers, every single one of them, Jeff Ginsburg, I think he's, I think he retired recently, but like, he wrote my letter of recommendation for grad school last year. And like, he like sent it to me and I was like in tears. Cause I was just like, oh my God, he spoke so highly of me, like friends, like friends. And also they would be like, Hey, there's this thing like go to this call. You'd be perfect for it. Sit there, wait for it. It doesn't matter how long it takes. You're good for it. Like go.
3 (57m 6s):
Yeah. And so it, it was absolutely like, now that I'm thinking back on it, like it seriously was like, it was so cool because it was just immediately like we're actors do it
1 (57m 18s):
Immediately about the work, which is what it needs to always be. So you're going to grad school.
3 (57m 23s):
Well, we'll see, I am awaiting results. So I applied, what are you trying to do? Where are you trying to, so me being an overachiever, I applied to USC, NYU and UCLA for screenwriting. So, so we'll see, Jen helped me with my essays because she's an angel,
1 (57m 46s):
You know what I, I love they were great. And also I just realized that what happens to me is when I help people with their stuff, it makes me want to go to grad school there. So then after I help you, I'm like researching all the shit, but your essays were great. And I guess my question that I probably have asked you this off, you know, when we were just meeting, but I'll ask you on the record. Like why, why grad school? Why, why screenwriting grad school?
3 (58m 15s):
Well, going back to my thing of like, I'm such an overachiever, I'm such like, I need to be the best. Like I need, I taught myself screenwriting, you know, from the sketch writing that I learned at second city. And then, you know, I've kind of been stumbling, fumbling, figuring it out on my own, which has been great and totally fine. And I must say like, not too bad, but there's the element of, I kind of want somebody besides like my husband and my mom to be like, this is great because they can't offer me like how to fix it.
3 (58m 56s):
You know, they're just kinda like, I don't know. It's cute. And so I, I'm kind of a masochist in that way where I'm like, I want somebody to be like, this is shit. And this is what you need to do to fix it. I don't know. But I also have that thing, like I was saying, like, I always wanted that university experience that I didn't get at Columbia. And so that's a little part of it too, was I was like, if I'm going to go back to school, I should probably, you know, do that, like go to like one of those schools that has a campus that like that and whatnot. So, but really it's just to learn. It's just really to like solidify the craft. We'll see.
2 (59m 33s):
Yeah. And not to mention, I mean, you know, everybody has to do some form of, I don't really mean to call it, pay to play, but I can't, I can't think of another term right now, but when I spend a lot of time talking about all the cottage industry that is the 1 million groups or programs or whatever that say the promise to get you to the next level in your career, if you're going to do that, which every, almost everybody has to, you might as well do it at an accredited university where you're going to be making connections with people who actually could hire you down the road, as opposed to somebody just saying like, Hmm, take our formatting class for
3 (1h 0m 14s):
100%. Yeah. Cause my, my boss right now was kind of saying that she was like, well, why, you know, you don't need to spend all this money, go take this class. And I'm like, but that class is still quite a bit of money. So I don't know, like, we'll see, I'm, I'm kind of at that place of like, I put a lot out there and then we'll see what happens and I'll cross that bridge when it, when it comes. But I'm trying to let go of the results you guys. And it is For everything, you know, like that's so
1 (1h 0m 46s):
I guess my next question that comes to mind is why writing and why specifically itself, like television is your jam, right? It's television. Okay. So why, what is it about, about television? Cause you're, I think you're our first real television writer that we've, I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, like tell me about, cause I'm just curious about how, why the medium of television and what do you hope to like do with your television writing in terms of changing the industry? Or what is your jam? Well,
3 (1h 1m 22s):
What I love about TV, I mean, like I grew up a latchkey kid where like TV was my friend. Like my mom was never home. My dad, you know? And so like I would sit at home and watch Laverne and Shirley and I love Lucy and flying nun, you know? And what I loved about it was that they, I could come back to them. So it wasn't just like a movie. There's that one story, my friend, that's my friends over there, like done TV. I could keep coming back and keep like seeing how their lives were unfolding. And I just think that's really cool because it's like, we get this like sneak peek into somebody's life.
3 (1h 2m 3s):
Right. Like stepping into somebody's shoes and just like, I dunno, like especially characters that are not like us. We can go. I just think that like, we get a little bit more compassion, a little bit more empathetic to like, oh, I can watch what your life is like and maybe understand you a little bit better. You know? And so for me, I love to write like female anti-heroes like, because as somebody like I'm sober and that's been like a very big journey for me. And as I was getting sober all the time, I was just like, I just wish you guys could see me when I'm alone and understand me and my like when I'm struggling and blah, blah, blah.
3 (1h 2m 49s):
And I feel like with TV, we can do that. Like obviously we can do that in movies as well, but I think TV gives us the time to really, really be grounded in it. You know what I mean?
2 (1h 3m 3s):
Yeah. I mean, you're really no bones about it. Developing relationships with characters over, in some cases, years long tracks. I mean, that's, it's not, it's not hard to understand why you would have that affinity. How, how does I've I've heard it said where people who were working in the industry, like working their way up, I've heard, it said a couple of different ways. I've heard it said, oh yes, making these connections. And then you just kind of are moving up the ladder. That's the way to go. And I've heard it said, I'm so good at my job that nobody ever wants me to do anything. But this one thing that I really don't want to do, but I'm just doing so I can do the thing that I want to do.
2 (1h 3m 45s):
W w where do you feel?
3 (1h 3m 47s):
I think luckily I'm kind of in the middle of that. I think like right now I'm an assistant and I'm a good assistant, but I'm not a great assistant. Probably. I do think that working your way up the ladder is, I mean, that's just the way it is in LA. Like when I first moved out here, I w I got an office PA job. And through that, I met all of these people. And through that, I met, you know, like that office PA job led me to the APRC, who then worked on another show. And then I went on that show and I met the show runner, and he really liked me. And I became a showrunner's assistant. And, you know, so it is about connections, but I think there's a delicate balance of explaining what you are wanting.
3 (1h 4m 36s):
You know, I think a lot of times people are like, you can't tell them that you want to be a writer or you can't tell them, blah, blah, blah. And I understand that like, from the jump, right, like don't say it in your interview and whatever, but I do think it does need to be said and known like, my boss is fantastic. She knew that I wanted to be a writer before she hired me, but she's always checking on me. Like, how has your scripts, you know, like, what are you working on? And we're waiting for her. She might be doing a new project or whatever. And so we're waiting to see, and then she's like, well, I'll bring you up with me if the opportunity happens.
3 (1h 5m 19s):
Right. But I'm still her assistant. Like I still do my job,
1 (1h 5m 23s):
So, right. I mean, I think LA is so weird in that way. And that, like, I was just thinking, like, when I got hired by Nick cage, I couldn't tell him I was an actor. But so his people told me not to say that. And so, because of whatever. And so like, we ended up talking about how I was working as the secretary at the Catholic church, rector inner check Catholic church rectory. And that's what he focused in on, which had a job. Gina got me later years later, he was like, why didn't you ever tell me you were an actor? Oh, boss, you never told me that. I didn't know that he said that to you. Like, what did you say?
1 (1h 6m 3s):
I like, probably turned bright red. I said, I told the truth. I said, you're your team? Which was like 10 people told me to take it off my resume. He goes, what? And I was like, I, it, it just does it. It's sort of like the thing we think is gonna, is gonna ruin or make us is never the thing. So, and so he, who knows what would have happened. Like, look, if I had gone into the initial interview and said, I'm an actor, he might not have hired me. However, if it had been on the thing, he might've said, oh, well, maybe there's a part for you down the line. And then thought of me. He was a producer.
1 (1h 6m 43s):
It didn't make any sense, but they told me, take it off. You have to. So I literally at that was back in the day where you had white out, I won't get off and then faxed it. I'm not shitting you from my home fax machine and faxed it to them without the acting on it. This is so LA is like the weirdest fucking place. Now. I'm glad that my life was what it was, but that's weird. And then the other thing that you made me think of Jenna was this idea of there is a fine line in this town. And I think you do a really good job of this. And so do I, of being a kind and genuine person and also asking for what we want.
1 (1h 7m 28s):
It's very tricky for women to do this. We're made to play these weird games where it's like, okay, like I'm not going to be too assertive and be like, I want to work for you as a, as your writer, you, I want to be in your writer's room. So instead saying things like, Hey, if there's ever a spot for me, like I'm totally willing to be of service, which is not a terrible way to say something. It's just that men get away with being like, oh, you're going to hire me one day. Like I want to be in your room one day and they're fine. So you really good. And I think all three of us are really good at sort of saucing out women. I know are sussing out where the person stands and trying to sell ourselves without selling ourselves.
1 (1h 8m 14s):
And that is, but it's also a really good skill to have because we know how to read a room, which is why we find your boss is probably like, Hey Jenna, I will take you with me. You're a team player. You still do your job. And I know you're a phenomenal writer, but it's, it's always like finagling.
3 (1h 8m 32s):
It's so interesting. Cause it's like what I tend to do too. And maybe this is good advice and maybe, I don't know, but like I, cause I genuinely want to know, like I would be like, Hey, I'm interested in writing. What do you suggest? Like, what do you like, what should I do? What do you think I should do to like, kind of like get me there. So then it's out of like what you want, but you're not asking them to do anything for you specifically. You're asking for advice, you know? And I think that's really good, especially when he moved to new place to ask for advice because you don't know what's going on. Like,
1 (1h 9m 8s):
And I think part of it is, you know, being in an all three of us are sort of in this self-helpy world. And I won't say more than that, but that, that we are good at like asking for, for feedback or like inviting people into a process in a sort of more community way versus like, you know, so, so we are able to, yeah, just not be weird about, so like it comes down to like a lot of advice. People say, when you're meeting with managers, show runners, don't be weird, which is like, I get exactly what they're saying, but for someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're doing, that's a weird, that's a weird piece of advice because what does that mean?
1 (1h 9m 55s):
But I think the three of us kind of get what that means. You don't want to be an asshole. You don't want to be desperate. You don't want to be all the things, but like it's a skill you learn because I don't know. It's hard. It's hard. So I, my, the other thing that I'm learning is like literally asking the one thing that, and I know, I don't know where I learned this. Maybe it was my mother that always ask for an informational interview where there are no strings attached where you're literally getting data from somebody. It has opened so many doors with show rudders. I cannot tell you, I don't know if it'll lead anywhere. I don't, but it has opened the door to get the data.
1 (1h 10m 36s):
And, and for me to genuinely tell that person I'm interested in what you have to say, because like you said, Jetta, I want to do what you're doing. Or I'm curious, curious, curious about stuff versus can you hire me right now? Well, you know what I mean?
3 (1h 10m 54s):
I think that's something though. I learned from the Chicago community, like definitely Columbia as well is to be prepared. Like if you're going to be asking someone for something or if you're going for something, be as prepared as you can so that when the opportunity arises,
1 (1h 11m 13s):
You're for it, you know? And that was such a big thing at Columbia. So good. That does not happen in Los Angeles. Let me tell you something. People are not ready. So like it, people, I have friends that are, that are like younger and in this business and, or my students and they're like, Hey, this person like said they wanted to meet with me, but they can't really mean that. Do they? And I'm like, when did this happen though? Like two weeks ago. I'm like, oh man, yes, they want to meet with you. Write the email back. What are you doing? I mean, I've done the same shit.
1 (1h 11m 53s):
I've done the same shit, but I, you can't, you gotta be ready for when the opportunity comes. I think you're right. Yeah.
2 (1h 12m 4s):
I appreciate your compliment. That you're including me as somebody who knows how to read the situation. I, I disagree. I don't think I know how to read the situation. I'm because I have like two speeds, which is never tell you anything about myself and never make you feel in any way, beholden to me for any reason whatsoever. Or can I have a job? Will you please give me a job? I don't feel like I re I mean, not really that I'm being cheeky, but like, it is hard and it LA or entertainment, I'll say, I don't know any other profession that has this many unspoken rules. Right? You know, you want a job in finance. You go to this school, you see this person, you play this sport.
2 (1h 12m 47s):
Then you have your job in finance and you ask for what you want. You may not get it, but it's, it's all, I'm not saying it's all transparent. Cause I know it's not, but it's so much, this is so murky. This entertainment thing is so murky. And you're just like guessing all the time about what
1 (1h 13m 4s):
It's like. It's like totally. Right. And I feel like it is even the rules of like, would they ask for emerging writers to apply to something? Okay. And so then I applied and I've applied and it turns out everyone who gets the thing has already been stabbed and has it had, has representatives. And I'm like, wait, this, this is, this is a lie. So you learn that like emerging, even words mean different things here. So emerging just basically means it can mean anything, but it's not true newbie. So like they don't want newbies. And so like, I thought it was a value that I was a newbie in this one way.
1 (1h 13m 46s):
And they were like, no, no, no, actually we want someone that has some experience in it has staffed once. And I'm like, well, that's not me. I, I I'd like below a new, like funny. It's like, you're right. Gina, the L the there's all kinds of weirdness and like navigating a system. That's just super vague.
2 (1h 14m 9s):
Jenna, if you get, if your current boss gets the new opportunity and you go with her and you get accepted to grad school, what are you going to do?
3 (1h 14m 20s):
Truly, I think what I would do is I would go with my boss because that's, and also she has said like, you know, the, the opportunity I will learn from it, you know? And, and I think she'll being in the room. I will learn what I need to learn. And I, I'm pretty quick at picking things up anyway. So I think it'll be good. We're supposed to find out this week. Oh, so
1 (1h 14m 53s):
That's the other thing the waiting in this business is bonkers.
3 (1h 14m 56s):
It is honestly, you know, like when you, when you audition for something, you know, then there's callbacks director sessions, whatever, but there's still like a little bit of quickness right. With this. I think we've been doing this since August. Like, it's just like somebody help, like somebody tell me, I can't imagine how she feels. Honestly.
2 (1h 15m 20s):
Now I'm certain that this is not going to happen, but in the very, very rare case that you, she, you, she doesn't get that job and you don't get into grad school or what are you going to,
3 (1h 15m 29s):
Because honestly, I just have to keep writing. I'm just going to keep writing. And I'm at the Groundlings right now. I, I did their core classes. I'm waiting to get into their writing lab and I'm just gonna keep trekking along, you know, because it's like, I've tried to not do this stuff before. Like, I've tried to have like, quote unquote, normal job, whatever. And I'm just not interested. I would rather be doing this. And, you know, I think Jen, I described it, my UCLA essay. It's like, I feel like it's a rollercoaster where I'm just like chunk, chunk, chugging along, you know, you're going up the hill and right. As you're about to go over that hump, you know, like sometimes you slide back down and it's so frustrating, but I'd rather try and keep getting over that hill then like get off the ride altogether.
3 (1h 16m 21s):
So, yeah. So that's that, you know, I've got a few
1 (1h 16m 25s):
That's fantastic. And the other thing I just want to say is like you guys, while you're talking, I'm thinking also about the everyone that I came up with in Hollywood, my first go round, they all like ended up running studios and things. So that the thing is true to keep. And here's the thing. Like I had the opportunity to, to go into development at his company. And I was like, oh no, I just want to like, answer the phone and like, like eat cookies at my desk. Like I could have. And I, it's not that I'm kicking myself. But what I am saying is will they always say like, keep a group around you of like-minded people that are headed in the direction you are headed, because you all, like Gina was saying, you all rise together.
1 (1h 17m 12s):
It is the truth. It's not even like something people say I'm looking around. What are the people that I came up with brand Fox for a while, one of them. And so it's just, it's staying the course, if that's the course that you're supposed to be on, stay with it because people will, will bring you along. Like your boss was saying, you will find people that will do that. And now I needed to go deviate, do a million other things apparently and deal with a lot of shit. But the point is that I think community is possible. And also there are, I guess, I'm to what I'm taking away from this too today is like, there are good people that will bring you along and help. And it's a matter of like sticking.
1 (1h 17m 54s):
Yeah.
3 (1h 17m 55s):
Well, and finding the ones that, like you're saying, like, that really do like vibe with you because I've worked with plenty of people that know, like, it's just, it's not a right fit. It's like dating, you know, it's just like, we don't see eye to eye and we can try and force it, but it's not cute. It's not fun. And nothing good is going to come out of it creatively or, you know, Hey. Yeah. Like it's, cause there's so many different types of people, especially here in LA. What's really funny is, and I think Jen you've said this before, but it's like, I find myself gravitating towards like so many Midwest people, either they're Chicago people or they grew up in the Midwest. I don't know.
3 (1h 18m 35s):
Maybe. Cause we're nice. But it's funny. Like you do find your,
1 (1h 18m 40s):
Like you find your people. And also I'm finding my people in ways. I never thought that I would in terms of right. Who's an ally. Right. So I always assumed if someone looks like me and they were whatever, we were kind of similar, they were going to be my ally. That's not necessarily true. So like, I've been like, oh, they're Latinos. They're gonna love me. No, no, ma'am no ma'am, that is not. So I, you find them in ways that you don't think like, but I do gravitate towards Midwesterners, but I also thought that like, oh my God, this person and I are going to be best friends. It's just like anything in life. I'm like, they're going to help me launch my career to the next level.
1 (1h 19m 23s):
And really it's been helpers from over here. Literally two of the showrunners that I've met have been through my fucking husband was nothing to do. He juggled with one of them in juggling club and then they did it well. Yeah. And then he, he became best friends with the show runner, Terry Shafer. And then, and then the other one was someone in his men's group. So like you just don't and then my husband doesn't give a shit about any of this. So you don't know, but you find we'll find our peeps. We're finding our peeps, you know, stay for the miracle. People stay for the American .
1 (1h 20m 5s):
Whereas my husband likes to say, don't leave. It gets greater later.
2 (1h 20m 25s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: speaking up for yourself, sharing your wins, jealousy
Let Me Run This By You: Boz explains how she maintains having many close friendships, when Boz called an ex 89 times in 4 hours, What About Bob?
Interview: We talk to Brian James Polak (host of the Subtext Podcast!) about taking a circuitous route to playwriting, Marymount University, Keane, NH, opting for a philosophy major, do you need to be reflected by your parents?, being an RA, when his college guidance counselor told him to go to a trade school, early adulthood financial naïveté, Meisner, improv, Jeremy O. Harris, posthumous playwriting.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Hello? How are you today? Well, I'm better than yesterday in terms of my, I really spoke up for myself and with my friend and for podcast listeners. I think we did not record this cause we were just having a meeting, but we did record it, but not on a podcast format.
1 (49s):
Anyway, the point is I had a friend that had sort of tried to, or did set a boundary in a really messy way that I did not receive, but, and then I, I was proud of myself. I just called and I like, I it's interesting as I get older, I don't have a charge on things like I wasn't charged about it. I was like, listen, I mean, I was charged about it when I talked to you because that's what you do when you talk things out. But like I just listed, I totally appreciate that you have this issue and you don't want to hear me talk about certain things. Cause that was the whole thing is that she said, you know, it basically comes down to jealousy and envy and I get those things a hundred percent.
1 (1m 33s):
Believe me, if you listen to the podcast, you know, that like all of my theater school experience and until like maybe four years ago was spent basically living in one state of constant, less than feeling and envy. So I don't, but I'm trying not to do that anymore and I'm working on it. So anyway, I just said like, Hey, like here's the thing. If you need to set a boundary, which it sounds like you do to not hear about certain wins of mine, I just need you to know that that's gonna really affect our relationship. And also I've spent, and this is the core I whittled down. I'm trying lately to whittle down to the core issue. And so, because it just saves a lot of time in conversations.
1 (2m 15s):
Like literally it same with pitching, same with anybody like whittle it down. What are you really saying? And what I'm saying is I spent my whole life not feeling like I wasn't allowed to celebrate my wins, which started in my family of origin. I don't want to do that anymore. It's painful. It'll kill me. It lead to depression, anxiety. I'm not doing it anymore. So I said, if we need to take a break in general from chatting for, well, great. I'd much rather do that. Then, then me censor myself. I'm not, I'm not going to do that with people on my free time. Like, I feel like we have to do that in, in professional settings all the time. Or like as adults in, in the world.
1 (2m 56s):
Right. We can't go around saying, I mean, when you can't and you end up in an institution or a jail, so, so, and, and she was totally receptive and was like, oh yeah, I was shocked just because that's not been my experience with people, not her, but people and oh yeah. And myself. And so we're going to, we're going to give it a shot to, to try it again. And then I just said like, literally, I'm not going to look. I everyone's got to do what they need to do, but like, I, I, I L I am not willing to, yeah. Not share to, to hide from people I'm supposedly supposed to be close with.
1 (3m 37s):
Like, I just, it's just not working. It doesn't work out. If it worked out, I would have continued doing what I did my whole life. Well,
2 (3m 46s):
It works out if you're in a people pleasing relationship where all you can get out of it is the satisfaction in any given moment of telling the person exactly what they want to hear. But of course we've long discovered that that is not a great long-term solution because it leads to all of the aforementioned maladies. So good for you.
1 (4m 6s):
Thank you. And, and, and not only does it lead to, you know, certain inevitable death, really it, once you, once I know the, in my heart, it doesn't work. I can't in good faith, keep people pleasing because I don't have the evidence anymore that it actually does anything other than create depression. Like I have that visceral experience. So I, I, I'm not the kind of person, I don't think many people are sociopath aside or psychopaths that like, can pretend. So I I'm like not going to pretend anymore that I can function that way. It's just, it's just a waste of everybody.
2 (4m 45s):
Yeah. And I'm, I'm about to say the world's least profound thing, but it's been profound for me cause I'm just like really getting to it, which is the thing that you run out of steam for, with the people pleasing is just simply the fact that in the effort to please other people, you, you don't please yourself. And so it'd be like trying to fill your gas tank with like Daisy pedals, you know, because somebody wants you to fill it. And it's like, okay, well maybe it'll get somewhere for awhile. But at the end of the day, you still need gas. Like you still need to meet your own needs. You still need to be in charge of your own. I mean, that's it, you need to meet your own needs.
2 (5m 25s):
And so the, the thing that ends up always underneath the people pleasing is, oh, I haven't met my own needs. And funny thing, the needs didn't disappear just because I wasn't, you know, because I chose not to meet them. That's been my thing recently of like, I don't know how I was previously formulating my lack of willingness to take care of myself. I think I was formulating it as like being heroic in some way or being tough in some way, which it just completely isn't, it's just being afraid to like, engage with me and that's, Hey everybody, it's only you at the end.
2 (6m 9s):
So might as well get cozy with you now and figure out how to meet your needs now. So agree. And she received it well. So like, that's the best possible outcome.
1 (6m 21s):
Yeah. She totally received it. Well, we're going to give it a shot, you know, because I talked to you and then I talked to my other friend and my other friend, it just, everyone talks from where they're coming from. My other friend was like, oh, you need to just cut her off. Like you can't ever talk to her again. She's crazy. She's crazy. And like, you, you can't, you that's enough. And I was like, oh man, I could. But like,
2 (6m 45s):
And I can relate to that too. I mean, I can really, because of what that person is saying is like, it's so hurtful, you know? Right. Cause that that's an instinct. We sometimes have somebody hurt us. So they're dead.
1 (6m 56s):
Yeah. And they're crazy. Like write them off as bonkers and you don't have time for it. Here's the thing. I think it's all a wait and see situation. Like, you know, relationships evolve and change. And, and I don't want to like end the friendship right now. I mean, if this continued, of course, but like I give people a chance, you know? But like, yeah. It's so funny.
2 (7m 22s):
Cute. So funny to me about jealousy. I'm always surprised when, when, when, when it's revealed to me in any way that anybody has any jealousy of,
1 (7m 32s):
Oh my God. I told miles, my husband, the exact same thing, cheetah. I said, it's absurd. That any, cause we, we think so low of ourselves that like, it's absurd that anyone think once anything that I have, I'm like, wait, what? It doesn't make any sense to me.
2 (7m 53s):
It does not compute it. Totally. Doesn't compute Question. I'm not sure I've ever asked you, which is you, you really do have quite a lot of friends. How do you maintain your relationships? I mean, it's a lot of work, isn't it?
1 (8m 19s):
It is a lot of work. I feel that I'm getting better at saying, okay, like, this is what I can give to you. Cause I have a, you know, I have a lot of friends that are going through a really hard stuff. You know, I talk a lot about my friend. His dad is really sick and I just know like, I have to be able to say, this is what I'm available for. It's really hard. And then back away, it is all on me to back away. It's not them. It's not them saying, oh, can you no, no, it's me saying this. How can I be of service? Here's how I'm available to be of service in these times of trouble. And here's how I'm not. And, or I don't even have to set those rules, but I have to know if my, within myself, like how does this feel?
1 (9m 1s):
A go, I'm starting to feel a little bit crazy. I can't, but I feel like my friendships now you see, it was interesting. Growing up. I had zero friends in high school, like real friends, like Ryder dyes, 0 0, 0, 0, 0. I had acquaintances and stuff like that. I've talked a lot about a friend I had on here that I was like her fan, you know? And that started this whole journey to become an actor. Right? But like now the people in my life, my friends who I would consider real friends, I have made a priority to be there authentically and also tell the truth in the relationships.
1 (9m 42s):
So the truth is the only thing that keeps the friendships going. And even if that truth is like, I'm not available. Like I have, I have so much shit going. Like the other day, my friend who was, who was whose dad is sick called me twice during the day. But I did not pick up because I was literally looking for a fucking job and applying for jobs and like I needed to do that. So I felt there was a twinge of like, I gotta pick up the phone like, oh God, she's called twice now. But I said, no, you know what? You gotta
2 (10m 13s):
Do. You gotta take care of you.
1 (10m 15s):
I have to be literally if I want a house, the other thing is having goals. Right? So like really getting centered in what my goals are in the true sense. It's that Doris, my dog has a patch of grass and we have a patch of grass. I talked to the realtor who said, in order to make that happen, you have to do these things, which is bringing a certain amount of money a year. Each of us, my husband went, okay, that's the case. And I got to do certain things. And that means doing them, even if the phone rings and my friend wants to talk.
2 (10m 48s):
Yeah. Yeah. But it's hard. So just like with everything else, as you kind of talking about winnowing away, when you went away at the parts of yourself that are working in that, it just makes your relationships, it just makes, it sounds like it just makes everything come into greater focus for you,
1 (11m 5s):
Greater focus and you don't have to lie. I don't have to lie and say, oh, like I didn't pick up because I was no, I, and I told the truth. I said, Hey, I'm so sorry. I didn't get back to you yesterday. I was literally like knee deep in like focus, land, trying to get this interview for this job or whatever. And that's the truth of what was going on. I wasn't with someone else. I wasn't partying. I wasn't. I told the truth about the situation. And then I called the person at the end of the day and just said like, this was my day. It was fucking intense. Sorry, I didn't pick up the phone, but like I had to do this
2 (11m 35s):
And she loves you. So
1 (11m 36s):
She understands. And that's the thing, right? Gina, if people don't get it, then that's on them. And then maybe they need a different kind of friend. And like, that's just the truth. And it's not, I don't even fault people. Same with, with me, if I'm in the reverse, if I, and then, and then that's why it's good to have more than one friend. Right? Because then you can go to see this in program all the time. Like you need a phone list, you don't need one person. So that if that person's not available, you go to someone else and say, Hey, I'm really having a hard time. You have people in your, in your, in your, in your Rolodex that you can call and say, you know, instead of just having one and that's what I did growing up was like, you would either have one friend or then it became one boy, right?
1 (12m 22s):
One man that I was obsessed with that was going to solve all my problems. It did not work out. It did not work out for me. Like that was misery.
2 (12m 32s):
Yeah. That that's, that I've done that my whole life too. And really what it does is it leads to a lot of burnout because everybody's, if you're putting all of your eggs in one basket and somebody steps on your basket, you have no eggs left. So maybe diversify,
1 (12m 48s):
Diversify, your eggs is basically the thing. But also when I think of, when I think of how I behaved in particular with people, but in particular with men that I wanted to love me, I am so aware of how terrible that must have been for them. And that even in, not even in a like, oh, poor them, like the bind I put them in is intolerable. Like no wonder they were like, you're I can't deal with like, they were like had to set a boundary of like go away because it's intolerable how they couldn't take care of my needs, even if it was their job and which it wasn't.
1 (13m 32s):
So I went to the wrong person to do the wrong job and only had one of them. Oh my God, no, no, I'm not.
2 (13m 39s):
That's that, that hit me. That's so that's so real. I'm just flashing on, you know, these sort of pseudo relationships, things that I was calling relationships that I had in college. And right after where I did that, I made that, you know, the second somebody showed me one tiny iota of interest. I'm like, I'm in love with you. And we're going to spend the rest of our lives together. And you know what happened in 99% of these relationships is they're like, oh cool, you want to have sex with me. Great. And you, and you're not going to ask me for anything else.
2 (14m 19s):
You're, you know, cause in my mind, I'm holding on to all of these expectations, but I'm never ever, ever saying anything about what I need. I'm just sitting over here, praying that you're going to call me, oh my God. Or page me praying that, you know, whatever. And like, to the point that I just had no awareness that this one guy who only ever called me at midnight, I just had no aware. I just thought, oh, well he sleeps late.
1 (14m 53s):
Bless your heart. Like literally bless your heart. You couldn't see it. I, once this is so embarrassing and I'm friends with the guy now, Jonah. So I can say I, once I shit, you not, he wouldn't pick up because he was smart and wanted space. Right. I called him from work. I'm supposed to be working at Nicholas Cage's office. Okay. That's my job I'm paid for. And I, and, and I think he tracked it. How many times I called in for hours? 89.
2 (15m 26s):
Oh my God. Oh. And, and you're probably from times three to 89 years, like you fucker just dialing it over, like yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh
1 (15m 37s):
Nah, hell no sick, sick, sick person, sick, sick person need help.
2 (15m 43s):
Especially when you realize after all these years that, I mean, you, you, you, you now have a real and true relationship with Jonah. He's a person that you love, whatever. But at the time, you know, it was not about Jonah
1 (15m 57s):
And also no person. It's
2 (15m 58s):
About no person. It's about no person. It's just like me, me, me, me. I need you to feed me. one of my favorite movies of all time is what about Bob? Yeah. I relate so wholly to Bob, Dr. Leo, Marvin, he says, get me, get me, get me. Well today on the podcast, we are talking to Brian, James Polack. Brian is a playwright and he's the host of American theater magazines to the Subutex podcast.
2 (16m 45s):
And we had a great conversation about New Hampshire and Meisner and improv and circuitous routes to playwriting. So please enjoy our conversation with Brian, James Polack, Whatever, whatever comes out well as a person with highly unpronounceable last name. I mean, unless you know me, I feel your, I feel your pain police.
3 (17m 15s):
I've said that to myself properly then. Cool.
2 (17m 19s):
Yeah. Before my telling you, you knew how to pronounce it.
3 (17m 24s):
I think that was what I wanted it to be.
2 (17m 28s):
Okay. Oh well, that's I, you know the choices I tip my hat to you, sir. Mostly people say police are clueless,
3 (17m 37s):
So I didn't want it to be policed.
2 (17m 39s):
Yeah. Yeah. You and me both. So Brian, Paula, congratulations. You survived theater school. You survived. I play MFA at USC if I'm correct. Okay. But you had a circuitous route.
1 (17m 56s):
I got to say like looking at your website. I, I have so many things to ask you, but we have a little bit of time, so I won't rush into it, but I just want to say your mission statement. You're like art is brilliant. So people should go, go, go to your website and we'll give them their information later. But anyway, yes, you had a circuitous route to where you are now. More so than others, I would say so. But congratulations. And I just want to know, how did you end up to, where are you in Chicago? Right.
3 (18m 27s):
Madison, Wisconsin right now,
2 (18m 29s):
The Hampshire. And you went to undergrad for philosophy, first of all, what made you pay
3 (18m 35s):
Philosophy? Yeah, I literally had no ambitions or interests coming out of high school, going into undergrad. I really only went to undergrad because that's what most of my friends were doing. And it was what my mom said I was doing. So the one smart choice I made was I knew my based on my personality that I would drown if I went to a large college with like thousands and thousands of students. So I, that the, the, the stack that I had included, like the university or Boston university and new Haven, not Yale, but the university of new Haven and colleges that were just like a little bit bigger.
3 (19m 22s):
And when I pulled them all out and looked for small colleges in a city away from New Hampshire, I had one and it was Marymount university in Arlington, Virginia, which is the DC area. And that's why I applied there. No other I'd never visited. That's fantastic. Never went to see it just, just applied. Got in. I also in my mother may be applied to Keene state college and the university of New Hampshire. I got into all three and a, and I was like, I want to go to Marymount. Why? Just because it was away from New Hampshire. And I had no clue what the college was like.
3 (20m 2s):
And my mother said, fine. If you get a financial aid package that will make the cost equivalent to what it would be at, say, university of New Hampshire, then she let me go. And I did, I got the, I got the financial aid package I needed and she let me go. And I saw the school for the first time when I moved into my dorm.
1 (20m 24s):
Holy shit. Yeah.
3 (20m 26s):
So at that point, what am I going to major in still? No idea. I, I
2 (20m 34s):
Wait, that's what they should call philosophy is no, I majored in no idea. I still have no.
3 (20m 39s):
So here's my, here's my reasoning. I, at that age, and for several following was desperate to have an identity of some kind like who am I? And I, I felt very beige and boring. I felt like there was nothing interesting about me because I had no focus. I was not going to become a great athlete. I was essentially nothing. So from my own point of view and I chose philosophy because it sounded interesting. I knew zero about philosophy.
1 (21m 21s):
Nobody knows anything
3 (21m 22s):
About I still don't, but I, it was, there was nothing about the sort of like academic approach to philosophy and studying it and learning it. No clue didn't care was like, I'm a philosophy major and saying those words, I'm a philosophy major is all I needed.
1 (21m 42s):
Yeah. It's interesting. I think you're younger than we are, but I, there is this. Okay, well, I'm just making shit up based on your lovely physical appearance and your snappy website. But I, I, I, there was something about the time period that I, at least I, I grew up in the eighties and the, and the nineties of like this real vague sort of parents aren't that involved. Cause we've talked to so many people of this generation parents weren't involved. I don't think in any of this, other than you have to make sure you can pay this or whatever, other than the financial part, there was no, like figuring out with parents about who we were as kiddos.
1 (22m 29s):
I don't think. And like taking the time, I don't know if you had that experience, but like, it sounds like from what you're saying, your mom was mostly focused on the financial aspect understandably, but like, I'm not sure that's the only decision that should go into a college where you're going to decide who you are as an adult. No,
3 (22m 47s):
No. And I was so in the dark about this school that I received, like the student handbook a month before, like during the summer, before I went to school and I'm thumbing through this handbook and I see that the president of Marymount had an Sr before their name. And the name was like, I couldn't even tell that the gender of the name, but it just had Sr I can't remember their name, but it was like weird name. And there were pictures of nuns. And I was like, why the hell are there nuns in this handbook?
3 (23m 27s):
And what does Sr mean? And my mom's like, you idiot, this is a Catholic college. You're going to a Catholic college. That's Sr mean sister a nun is the president of your college. I was like, are you
2 (23m 44s):
Serious? Both. So while you were getting the degree, were you thinking, okay, I'm just gonna, I'll end up going for my PhD and being a professor.
3 (23m 51s):
Oh, no, no, no. My first two years of undergrad, I didn't even think about the classes I was taking. I studied becoming friends with people From my first two years. And I had like a C average after my sophomore year, I was a TA. I was just a terrible, terrible student. And this connects to why I ended up at grad school years later, which saw that's why I mentioned it. I was a very, very terrible student. I did the minimal amount of work I showed up to class the, the least amount of time possible.
3 (24m 31s):
And all I cared about was making friends with people and being, trying to be happy like that, which was a struggle for me in that age, just being happy. But I just wanted to be friends with people and that's really all I did. But then when I got to be like a junior, senior, I was like, I got to just like, they're going to try a little bit harder. And I did until my final semester where I just mailed it in for the whole semester, but I had no thought about the day after graduation and all of the days that followed that zero until not until like maybe two months after I graduated is when I started to think about what, what's my future now.
2 (25m 16s):
Well, I mean, but like literally, what were you doing when you graduated?
3 (25m 21s):
I got a little bit of money from like FA you know, family members like congrats, here's a check. Right. You know, and I spent the next two months, I moved into where, like I moved into a house with like seven or eight other disgusting, dirty men. And, and I
2 (25m 43s):
Dated
3 (25m 45s):
So gross. This place was so gross. And I spent all my money on rent and living and going to the movies and buying food. And I would say around the end of June, I graduated like the first week of may. And around the end of June, beginning of July, I was like, Hey, I'm running out of money. I, I need to get a job. And so what I did, I made a couple of choices. Some were good. Some were set me on a really bad trajectory for a long time. But I, I was aware that credit card companies give credit cards to college students.
3 (26m 27s):
I don't like the threshold to get accepted for the credit card at that age was very low. So I got two credit cards. So that extended my ability to live for a while because it's credit cards as you know, or a free money.
1 (26m 44s):
Sure.
3 (26m 47s):
Yeah. So I had that free money and I spent that too. And then I started like, it's now like July and I'm like, I need to get, I need to get a job. Like when, how am I going to get a job? I had, I had an internship as an undergrad at the patent and trademark office. So I, I had like some research, she type of experience on my one line resume. And I, part of the, and then the other thing was I was an RA, a resident assistant for two years.
3 (27m 27s):
And so those are my two areas of experience and the degree of philosophy, which is not going to get you a job. It'll get you maybe to law school or to the seminary or some shit like that. So I started looking for jobs and I started in DC. And then I started to expand that circle because I couldn't find anything. And then, and that was applying for jobs. I was applying for tons of jobs. I was going, I was almost caught in like several, like pyramid schemes, multilevel marketing things like, yeah, you're signed up for this interview. Brian, come to this meeting, you show up, there's like 40 people sitting in a prison.
3 (28m 11s):
And I was like, this doesn't seem right.
1 (28m 15s):
You know, side note, side note, my husband got involved with those and he's 54, like just a couple of years ago. Like, I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, it's an interview. I'm like, dude, this is a zoom mark. Multi-level marketing fucking presentation. This is Glen Gary, Glen Ross. And he had to, and then he like logged out really fast. Anyway,
2 (28m 36s):
She did not know that MLMs advertised, just like as a job job. That's yeah. So sinister
3 (28m 45s):
A hundred percent.
2 (28m 47s):
So let me stop you for a second. Were any of the adults in your life, reflecting back to you, what you were doing saying to you, like you're hoping to parlay this RA thing into a career or, I mean, was anybody saying to, I mean, okay, so you're a playwright. You that's, that's, that's the, that's the PS to the story is that you're a player right now and you, and you have your own podcast, but who, who was reflecting back to you? Like what you're good at and what you might want to pursue? Or was it more like what boss and I had, which is nobody and saying anything to you and you were just expected to cover your own rent.
3 (29m 27s):
Oh, good. Yeah. I don't remember ever having a conversation with any adult in my life about what I'm good at and what I could and what I could do. As a matter of fact, I had a guidance counselor in school. And during that period of time, when they're there guidance counseling students about what to do after high school, telling me to go into the trades to work, to get, to get a job working on cars or, or something like that, because I wasn't college material. And I was so offended by this person. I can't even remember their name, but if I could remember this guidance counselor's name, I would be, I would be like shouting it out because they, they were, I thought this was the worst advice ever.
3 (30m 14s):
And I was like, by the time when I got accepted to the three colleges I applied to and granted, they weren't like Ivy league schools, but still this person with no, that isn't college material got accepted to three schools. I was like, you, like I got in. And I was sure to go to the office and be like, by the way, just wanted to let you know. I applied to three schools and got into all of them. And I'm, I I'm going, I'm moving to Washington DC. So see you later. Good for you. But I had my family and I even back then my mom, my mom divorced my biological father when I was a remarried. My stepfather when I was 11, had two kids with him when I was like 13 and 15 is when my little sisters were born.
3 (31m 2s):
So they occupied a significant amount of focus from my, from my parents. I had an older sister, Karen who, two years older than me. She was ahead of me in this whole go to college, start a life kind of thing. She was just, she was a very good student, very focused, knew what she wanted to do. And I think my, my, my mother was just like, I've got kids. I need to focus on because by the time I was going to college, they were three and eight or there were, there were like three at five or something like that or whatever. So she had no bandwidth and that's just not really her personality type.
3 (31m 44s):
And so there was a part of me that wanted to be funny and wanted to be involved in theater, but what happened? So in, in, in undergrad, I had, there were people in school that were like putting on plays, like on their own. There wasn't a theater department in undergrad. If there was, I probably would've, I probably would've found it. I can't be sure, but I have a feeling I would have found it if there was like a theater department of theater classes and that kind of stuff. But I, but I remember a moment when somebody I knew on campus wrote a one-act play and asked me to be a tree in it.
3 (32m 28s):
Fantastic. And I was like, that sounds like fun. So I did that and I was like, this is kind of fun. And then every year the school produces a and they were producing little shop of horrors. And I was very involved in campus activities. My main responsibility was like booking bands to come perform. I really liked doing that, but I was kind of like, you know, I was an RA and I was student activity nerd. So I got roped into auditioning for little shop of horrors. And I got cast as if you know the play.
3 (33m 13s):
Yeah. Mush Nick, the owner of the flower shop, who was the old man. And I have a feeling mate, the main reason I got cast as much Nick was because his songs were just easier to sing. The funny thing is, I, you know, w you were commenting on my age earlier, I look a little bit younger than I am. And back then I looked, looked younger than I was so, and you're playing an old, I had long hair, like I had long hair pulled back in a pony tail.
3 (33m 54s):
And I had to play this old, this old man. And they aged me with makeup and putting gray in my long hair, long, luxurious curly hair. Right. And it was a bad experience. I'll have to say because of the pro really, because of the process, but I very much enjoyed it. And, but it wasn't the thing I was going to continue doing. So I'll stop there.
2 (34m 21s):
Wait, what was bad about it? Yeah.
3 (34m 22s):
Well, if it's just like interpersonal dynamics, like the cast was great. I loved everybody I worked with in the cast, but it was sort of like the dynamic with the director and then the main administrator on campus who was responsible for, for hiring the director and making sure the show goes on. It was kind of a nightmare. Like the director was there. I remember one day the director, sorry, there's this flood? The director canceled a rehearsal one, one night because of an illness and was like, his daughter was ill or something. And the administrator from campus refused to let us have the night off.
3 (35m 3s):
So he came in and try and started directing. And I didn't have all that experience. We now know the dynamics of the rehearsal room. Right. And, and, and all of that, I didn't know. I wasn't, I didn't have that experience yet because this was my, really my first experience. But my instinct was the director's been telling us what to do. And you, you have not been in this room and don't know what he's been telling us. So why are you kind of in here, you surfing this, it doesn't seem right. So I, I rebelled against it. I left rehearsal and to kind of like, Ooh, left a bad taste in my mouth about
1 (35m 45s):
Loved it. You love the experiences because of the other people, like the people in your house.
3 (35m 49s):
Oh, two left for sure. 100%. Yeah. I loved, I loved being with that group.
1 (35m 55s):
So would you say you have like a, like, there's a rebel, like part of you, like a big rebel part of you? Because like, my ass would have been like, well, just sit here and be quiet, like eight, okay. At an adult is doing bad things. I'll just sit and be quiet. You must have something in you. That was like a Nokia.
3 (36m 10s):
Yeah. And this really came about at this, in this, you know, 18 to 22 age range when I'm an undergrad, this sort of like questioning of authority. I became very rebellious and I just didn't trust authority who were, I didn't trust people, giving instructions without context. You can't tell me what to do. I need to know why. And I need to, I need to understand why you're telling me what to do. And when you're, when that's not happening, I don't trust you.
1 (36m 42s):
Huh. Interesting. I, I think that's interesting. And I also, it ties into, and we don't have to talk about this, but like you said, that you made some bad life choices and I, I love bad life choices, bad life choices. We made. So many of her, I made so many, and it's interesting that you brought it up that took you down a bad path. Do you want to, do you want to just say any more about,
3 (37m 6s):
Yeah. I mean, I mean, a lot of it started with finances. I, because as I mentioned before, I didn't have, I didn't have like that adult person. I, I wasn't trained with his finances, you know? So I just spent naively and got myself into debt right away. And, and, and even later in, later in my twenties, when I was getting jobs that paid more money, I spent everything I earned because my focus was on living life. So every time I had another $500 in my account, I was like, oh, that's a flight to San Francisco for a long weekend to see friends.
3 (37m 49s):
I pick, I was always picking up bills at dinner for my friends, just because I could, I was just like, I was like, I have $300 in my savings account, so sure. I can afford this $85 meal for everybody. So, so a lot of my bad choices were around that, but the other, other bad choices were like, I got this job as a research assistant in DC. And it was my first sort of real ish job. And I enjoyed it. And I was there for a little over a year. And I asked for a raise because the way my job worked, like I had to invoice the work I was doing.
3 (38m 30s):
And I knew I was, I was invoicing my entire year salary every week. Oh. And my salary was really low. So I went to, I went to my, my boss and I was just like, I want, I want a pay raise. And he was like, how much do you want? I said, $6,000 a year more. And he was like, no way, that's out of the question. I can give you $1,500 a year more. And I was like, listen, I know how much the books are not secret here. Like, I know how much we're earning. I know how much I'm personally earning for the, for the, his company. And he said, he said, he goes, it seems, Brent, Brent said, you will never make the amount of money doing this work.
3 (39m 15s):
And I said, in that moment, without any forethought, hadn't been thinking about it. I said, I quit and I'm moving to Boston. But in this, in this time period, before I sent that a key moment of my life that's connects me to theater directly for the first time was I got this research assistant job and I started it and I was working it for a few weeks. I was going to work in the morning, coming home at night, going to work in the morning and coming home at night, hanging out with my friends on the weekends, repeating over and over again. And I did this for a few weeks and I was just like, wait, is this life is 45 years of this rinse.
3 (39m 59s):
And repeat, I, I can't do that. Like, like, this is terrible. So I had this, I had this existential crisis and I said, I need to do something. And the other part of it was, do I know everybody I'm ever going to know, like, do I, am I only going to date the people that, how do I meet other people? How do like, how do like, is this the entirety of my world, this job in a series of jobs, nine to five. And then here are my 20 friends for the rest of my life. Like no shade, no shade to my friends, love them, but I just had some kind of instinct for more.
3 (40m 43s):
So I thought about that experience in undergrad and being in a play. And I thought about my friends in high school and my friend Corey. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to take an acting class. I think that would be fun. And that would meet new people because I don't know anybody that involved in this world at all. So I took an acting class and it was a Meisner class, which was jumping into the deep end. But I was amongst a group of people who like, it was like, I don't remember how long the class was, but 10 weeks. And then we would re up for another 10 weeks and the group kind of stayed together.
3 (41m 25s):
So here I am with a group now, and we're learning this acting together. And I kind of, I never understood Meisner, but I realized I had an aptitude for what we were doing. So when I, when I drew the line on the stand said, I'm moving to Boston. The things that I were, the things I would, I was, I was losing were my friends in DC and this acting class. But I was like, it's a sacrifice, it's a sacrifice I'm going to make, because I just feel inside that I need this. And, and so I said to my acting teacher, I said, do you know, do you happen to know anybody in Boston that teaches what you teach?
3 (42m 11s):
And I can just sort of pick up what we're doing. And he said, Nope, I do not. But what you should do is take improv. And that piece of advice that I took changed the trajectory of my life and to the, to the, to where I am right now as a, as a.
1 (42m 35s):
And so what do you think that that teacher saw? Why improv for you? Like why that, why not say, Hey, you should go to, you know, Boston university for acting.
3 (42m 47s):
I have no idea. I, I had, I didn't have the ability to see myself and I still, I never did have the ability to see myself as an actor. I wasn't aware of what improv was. I think maybe vaguely. I think, I think the British version of whose line is it anyway, entered my psyche at some point. So I had a very small idea of what the concept of improv was, but I didn't really know what he saw no clue, but you know, a couple months later I was living in Boston and I was looking for improv classes and I found an improv theater that was just starting a school.
3 (43m 35s):
So there were, they were booking their very first class ever. And I signed up and got in and worked through the six, whatever levels of this improv thing. And when it was done, the theater was auditioning for essentially like a B team. Like they had their main stage group. They wanted a second group to do touring shows to do off night performances. And I auditioned for it and got in. So, so that's, I mean, the advice to go seek out improv and taking that advice changed my life.
3 (44m 16s):
Getting cast in this improv group that was getting cast and starting to perform is what really changed the trajectory.
2 (44m 28s):
I have a question for the, both of you. Do you guys think that this, do you think there's any connection between not having adults reflecting back to you who you are or not enough? And these existential crises? I mean, what I'm hearing you say is your whole life has been an improv because you've had to just sort of like figure it out literally in the moment, literally the moment occurs to you, which may be why you were drawn, you know, to, to improv, but like, what do you guys think about this connection between, I don't know that if you had had a very directed experience in your childhood, I don't know if you would have gotten to the place of, is this all there is, is this, is this, you know what I mean?
2 (45m 23s):
Because if people who get put on a path by their they're the adults in their lives often don't really question,
1 (45m 32s):
Right? Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. I think there's something about our generation or that, that not having. Right. So I definitely feel like I had to figure it out on my own, all of it, every single thing, and that led to crises, but also it led to opportunity. Right? So like maybe for you, Brian, it's like, we didn't have a lot of direction. So it was internally directed. Right. We were internally directed and we acted in the moment and it made for some huge mistakes for me anyway, but also some huge freaking opportunities. Right. So like going to Boston, I mean, that is like, whoa, like intense, like, you didn't know you were how old
3 (46m 12s):
23. I was 23 turning 24.
1 (46m 17s):
Exactly. When I went to LA, I didn't know what was happening. I was like, I'll just go to Los Angeles. That'd be great. Yeah.
2 (46m 23s):
Yeah. You just bump along to the next thing and the next thing, but so then how did you get from improv to the MFS?
3 (46m 29s):
Yeah. So you've described my path. My life path is sir crew, sir. God, I can't say that.
1 (46m 38s):
So cute. Okay. It's like a charcuterie board to say
3 (46m 43s):
My life has been a charcuterie board of multiple cheeses. So, so it's still circuitous to get from, from, from that point a, to the point of grad school. But I, so I did this improv for two years and what I learned in that two year period was I loved being with the group. I love traveling for, for shows. I love performing on our off nights during the week. I love these just became my, my group of close, close friends, loved them, loved them all to this day. And I'm still friends with some of them.
3 (47m 24s):
And, but what I also learned was that my Achilles heel of inability sing was coming back to haunt me because music, musical improv and song parodies were a big part of what this improv theater was focused on. And that just wasn't my skillset. My skillset really was as a supporting player. I was I'm. I was very, at the time I was very, very good at supporting scenes. I was very good at being like glue for the friend cluster, but I just was like, I was just not a great improv actor.
3 (48m 7s):
You know, like I could not take the stage. I couldn't command the stage and be funny and entertain people. But if you two were doing a scene together and I could watch that scene be happening and recognize it needs an, it needs an influx of energy of some sort. I could bring that, you know, and I could help the scene that you're creating become better. And that that's not, that's a skillset that plenty of people have. Right? So I wasn't like an in demand type of person. So after two years, the hire, I, I saw that all of my friends were periodically being called up to the main stage to fill in.
3 (48m 47s):
Some of them were being promoted to full-time main stage and other people were joining the second group. And I was one of the original members and I was the only original member never called up. And I knew I was, I saw what that meant about two years in the artistic directors of the theater told us that everybody had to re audition for their role. Oh shit. I knew what that meant. So one of my bad, one of my sort of rash decisions that I talked about I talked about is the next rehearsal.
3 (49m 28s):
After learning that I just walked into rehearsal and quit and I walked away from it because I could not. I've recognized. Now the reason is I couldn't stomach being faced with being, and I, I was, I was developing a self-awareness like, I'm aware of who I am as a performer. I recognize that I'm probably not going to make it. So why go through this process, which is going to be horrible, it's going to be like depressing. So I walked away and, and that was the end of my, those the end of my improv life.
3 (50m 11s):
But I, so I was very sad and I missed being part of a group. So not, you love you a
1 (50m 18s):
Group, you love a group. You're a
3 (50m 20s):
Group kind. I am so happy collaborating with people. Like that's where I am at my absolute happiest. My like my goal, every time I'm writing something, I'm like, I got, I want to be around that goddamn table. Like, all I think about is the table being around the table with other people, working on a play like that is everything to me,
2 (50m 46s):
Community unit's unity. And yet you did pick a pretty isolated, I mean, you know, obviously if you're, if you're a ver obviously the goal is to be a playwright who's always being produced and that where you're always going to the theater where they're producing your play and you're available to continue working on it. But that
3 (51m 9s):
I became a playwright who has never produced. So it's like, it's like so, so sad. But the reason I ended up as a playwright was after the improv experience, not long after I left that left the improv people that I met doing improv or starting a theater company, cast me in a play. So it was like, now I'm like studying and now I'm performing a play. And now I'm helping run a theater company and, and producing theater and part of the acting ensemble of the theater company. And, and so that was like the next few years of my life, I was doing this.
3 (51m 54s):
And so I didn't really have the experience of auditioning and having the life of an actor. It was like, I was cast. I was just, but like the self-awareness that I talked about earlier doing improv came back to haunt me again. I never, because I never studied theater. I never felt comfortable performing. I was always in my head. I was never inside the character. And there was, we were, I was performing in a, a two hander titled it's called the sugar plum and lights open on me, lights go down on me and the other. So I'm like onstage from lights up to the lights down.
3 (52m 37s):
And I remember performing one day and it was like one of those things where it's running for three or four weeks, you know, in a small black box theater. But I remember performing and one particular night, I'm doing my going over here and picking up the newspaper and I'm doing all my blocking. I'm reciting my lines. And then there's a track in my head going, what the hell does this play mean? Why are you doing this? Why this newspaper, why are you saying these lines? I had
2 (53m 9s):
Philosophy. Is that philosophy?
3 (53m 11s):
I don't know if it's, I think it was actually more literal. Like I did not understand the story. What like who my character was. I knew I understood nothing. And it, me so much anxiety performing. And I did a couple more, a couple more plays. And I really enjoyed being part of this company. And I would have kept going forever, but people start to age. The two founders who were married together were having a child and they moved to Ohio. I took over being the artistic director for a minute.
3 (53m 54s):
And in this time period, I started to write because I knew that for a couple of reasons, one, I just knew that acting wasn't the thing. And I still had that emptiness I needed to fill, and I still want it to be part of this art form that I was starting to love. But I also, at the time met somebody who was a writer and I started to meet writers for the first time. And through, through them, sort of started to understand what craft was like. I met a lot of very serious writers and writers who were making their living either as writers or as writers slash teachers.
3 (54m 35s):
And, and it was like inspiring having conversations with them and just, and just the concept of craft just really made sense to me. So I decided, I think writing is the thing I want to do. And I started to do it. And when I started to do it, I'm now at this point in my 30, 31 32, I mean, in my early thirties. And, and I'm like, I think this is the thing. This might be the thing light bulbs are going off, you know, and I'd never would have gotten there, had it, had I not started at improv, gotten into theater and sort of, because the reason I was writing plays is because I was performing plates.
3 (55m 21s):
Like, you know, and I wasn't a reader. I wasn't like reading books and short stories and poems. So that wasn't what was motivating me or what I was inspired to write.
2 (55m 31s):
Wow, well, I'm here. So go ahead. No, no, no, no. What I am also hearing you talk about a lot is just, you're in a constant quest for meaning, which, you know, is the thing that brings a lot of people to writing, not just playwriting, but now that you have settled on playwright, do you find the meaning in it? Do you find, like, I feel like when you really find your avocation, whether or not it's your vocation, what you feel is I've, I've plugged in, like I've been floating in the miasma and now I've now I've attached and this is my organism.
2 (56m 14s):
Now, do you, do you have that feeling?
3 (56m 17s):
Yeah, so, you know, I started writing, then it took me several years to get in, to get to grad school degree and then have the postgrad school experience and through the ups and downs, the constant rejections and all of that. I mean, they all matter to me. Like, I, I'm always sad when I get rejected, but I'm at the point now where nothing's pushing me off this, the thing that I, that I've repeated over and over again is that I will likely die under a pile of unproduced plays. And I'm accepting of that. You know?
3 (56m 57s):
So at first, when I first said that out loud, it was like, I was bemoaning the state of my playwriting career and now it's fine, you know, because I, I love doing it and I love trying to be better and trying to be a, become a better writer. And I love connecting with people through writing and theater, but I, I probably going to continue doing it regardless of the, of how the theater industry responds to my work. I'll probably continue doing it until I'm literally incapable of doing it anymore, like physically and mentally.
2 (57m 41s):
So you're the person who is Mo who's most closely connected with what we're doing here, because you have a podcast, you interview playwrights. What is, would you say kind of a key difference between playwrights and actors in terms of their training? Oh,
3 (57m 58s):
Mm. I think that the playwright experience is, is much, it seems much more independent and isolated than the actor's experience because as I am understanding the actor, I not an actor, I didn't go through a theater school as an actor, but the way I'm understanding it is there's very much a more of a cohort mentality where you're experiencing the traumas together. Like you're having your own independent experience, but you're in this group. And it's, it's, the intensity is, is shared in a way that with playwrights, the intensity is not as shared.
2 (58m 46s):
It's not. So you don't have the same thing in, in a playgroup program where you feel like, oh, we all, you know, went through this battle together.
3 (58m 55s):
Yeah. I mean, I, I, I definitely felt by the end of my, my program was three years at USC and I had a cohort of three. And by the end of that three year program, because of the, because of specific things that went on during our three years, I really felt like I went through a battle with my cohort and we survived in the end. Like there was this feeling of togetherness and just sort of journey, but it was, and I can't speak for the other two of my cohort, but I, I can only assume it w if you talked to either of them, they would have a lot of different things to say about the experience, you know,
1 (59m 37s):
Did you start out with many more or, or was it always just the,
3 (59m 41s):
Yeah, the program by design is a cohort of three for each year. So there's nine people. There's nine playwrights in the program at any given time.
2 (59m 51s):
Wow. Did you interact with the acting?
3 (59m 55s):
Oh, yes. Definitely. There was a, I think in my first year, I think in my first year in my, and my second year, we had shared classes. So I, so I think in my first year, first semester I had a shared class with the first first year act. So it was like the first year and first year was together in the text analysis class. And then I think that same year I had a class the first year is plus second year actors in another sort of text analysis class. And then in the second year I had a class with, I can't remember what year actor program.
3 (1h 0m 36s):
It was whichever, yeah. I can't remember if the first or second or third year actors, but we had another class that was about generative work about collaboration and creating work together. So, yeah. So over the course of three years, I had three classes with them and the program not being particularly large, you know, you're always around each other, you know? And when you are trying to do put together like a quick, first reading of a script before you submit it for something, you know, those MFA actors would be the ones who you'd reach out to first.
2 (1h 1m 13s):
Yeah. I'll cut this part out, but do you, did you go there in the, what year did you go? What years did you go?
3 (1h 1m 22s):
I graduated in 2014 in may of 2014, started it. So I started in the fall of 2011.
2 (1h 1m 31s):
Okay. Oh, so your wait. So does that mean you're much younger than us or did you have a break? Okay, so you, that, so you did the, because you did the circuitous route?
3 (1h 1m 41s):
I was third. I think I was 37 when I started, I was the person in the program and it really led to a lot of conflict, I think.
1 (1h 1m 55s):
Yeah. Wow.
3 (1h 1m 58s):
Well, I think, you know, going back to some things I said in the, in the first part of this, that I was not a good student when I was an undergrad and that experience of being a terrible student and not being focused or interested in anything academic or professional, that was, I carried that with me through all the years, graduating undergrad in, through my twenties, into my thirties. And when I found playwriting as like the thing I really cared about and I've made the decision, I wanted to try to go to grad school. I was very, very serious about it. I wanted to get a 4.0, I wanted to be present in every single class.
3 (1h 2m 41s):
I wanted to milk the experience for everything it was worth because I, I was also working in theater at this time. So I kind of had like a 360 degree view of what this experience will lead to and not lead to and could potentially be in there. And I realized there were no promises made with an MFA and that I'm not getting an MFA because it's going to give me X, Y, and Z. I went to get my MFA because I wanted to be in school. I wanted to study this. I wanted to be in the classroom. I wanted to have discussions with the, with the, you know, with my classmates and my teachers. And I wanted this educational experience and that's the energy I brought in.
3 (1h 3m 24s):
And I also had, you know, all of this life experience and professional work experience in the theater. So I brought all of this with me and it, I think, and again, this is from my own perspective. If you talked to others in my program, you, you might get a completely different answer. But from my perspective, especially in the first half of the three years, I had an intensity that I think made it hard to be in class with me for some folks, because you know, every, everybody is very different. People are introverted. People are extroverted, people behave in classrooms and in engage in the work in very different ways.
3 (1h 4m 9s):
And for me, particularly at the very beginning, I was so excited to be in grad school. I was just so intense about doing the work. And if you weren't as serious as I was, I had a problem with you.
1 (1h 4m 25s):
That's so interesting because that's exactly what we're S we hear from actors. Same thing that go into acting conservatories. And the rest of us are like drinking. Mickey's big mouth, forties on the sidewalk. And they're like actually trying to act and like into it. And it said the phase, you mean? And they're like, even, even people that are like serious business actors and the rest of us are trying to just figure it out. I could see how it would be really fucking annoying to be like around people who maybe don't have their shit together. Right. Yeah.
3 (1h 5m 1s):
I mean, I have a lot of conflict with one with, and I, I don't think this is, I mean, cause it's really more a reflection on me and my own behavior than on them. But Jessie who was in my cohort, he was much closer to having completed undergrad. I don't think he went straight from undergraduate to grad school, but there wasn't a lot of time that passed from undergrad to grad school for him. So our age difference was huge. And I, at the very, very first semester, I got so irritated with him and I called, like, I pulled him aside and I called him out and good for you really?
3 (1h 5m 43s):
But here's the other in the moment I was like, good for me. And I was doing what I felt like I needed to do. And I thought I was giving a gift to, to Jesse, but in
1 (1h 5m 59s):
Exactly
3 (1h 5m 59s):
What you're talking in retrospect who gives a shit, it's none of my business, everybody's on their own journey. Let anyone do what they want to do to get through it. Like, like,
1 (1h 6m 14s):
Okay, I guess. Yeah. And I guess what I say good for you is the fact that you didn't, you did that instead of passive aggressively act it out shit during class, which is what the rest of us would have done. I mean, I would have done, it said that you took the personal side, like look great. Granted. It was probably, you know, whatever, but I'm glad you did it instead of like, we're just an asshole in class. Cause that's what most of us do.
3 (1h 6m 40s):
Yeah. Well, I try, you know, I tried not to be in who, and I'm not the one to say whether I was an asshole in class or not, because I, I could have been, I could have lacked the awareness to know whether or not from somebody else's perspective. I wasn't asshole, but I really tried not to be. I tried to just be in charge of my experience as much as I possibly can because ultimately what I came around to by the end was that just to use Jessie as an example, again, he's a good person, but like that's the most important thing for me. Like, and like, he's not a bad person. He's a good, he's a good person.
3 (1h 7m 20s):
And that's why I, I, in retrospect, I come around to like, what is it, my business, how somebody else decides to, you know, participate in class or not?
1 (1h 7m 36s):
Well, that's an interesting, it's interesting because like I do, it leads me to the question of like mentorship and like having older people in our lives and younger, but then Gino had brought up the point of having like a mentor that's younger than you do new Gina. So I think we need mentors that are younger than us and mentors that are older than us. And he maybe was a mentor, like a spiritual guru in some way for you because he pushed your buttons and shit like that. But I wonder if we asked Jesse what he thought, if it, cause people have pulled, put someone pulled me aside on set once when I was young on ER and said, what the fuck are you actually doing? You're like behaving poorly. And I was mortified and also hated their guts.
1 (1h 8m 16s):
But really they saved me later. I'm just saying, I'm not saying you do that for Jesse, but you could have. And I was like, oh, it was clunky the way they did it. My feelings were hurt. They also caused me to not lose jobs in the future. Just FYI, just throwing it out there anyway. So, so yeah, I just, so you, you, here's my question about USC, just like a technical question, like when you applied to this program, this, this playwriting program, did you, did they, is it one of those things where they pay for your thing or you have to pay? Or how does it,
3 (1h 8m 46s):
Yeah, that's a good question. It's a little, it's a little bit of both. So when I, so I was, I was in sort of entrenched in Los Angeles by the time I decided to go to LA. So going to another, go into S like applying to grad schools around the country, wasn't really an option for me. I kind of ended up just zeroing in, on USC for several reasons. One a year earlier, I had met Luis Alfaro by producing one of his plays at Boston court, where I was working. And I, I was only a couple of years into being a playwrights. When I watched this, you know, experience with him having a play world premiere and the way he interacted with staff and actors and the entire production crew was, was really sort of like motivating to me to, to, to want to be like very generous person, very warm, open.
3 (1h 9m 43s):
The key will listen to anything, you know, and he just, he had a way of dealing with people that I read myered and I learned that he taught at USC and it started to put this idea in my head that I maybe I want to go to grad school because I wasn't particularly interested in film and television, which is what brought me to LA in the first place. So I, and I was also, you know, in a marriage at the time. So I wasn't the only person with an opinion on the matter, but I looked at all of the area programs, UCLA, Cal arts. And I even sort of looked into San Diego a little bit because they have such a great reputation, but with the parameters of not moving anywhere, staying, you know, where, where I'm living and I need to, I needed to keep my full-time job, which was a humongous factor.
3 (1h 10m 44s):
None of these programs were really built to accommodate people working full time. So I kind of kept that to myself for a bit, but I just settled on USC. And so I'm like, I'm going all in on USC, USC because of its physical location. And that Luis was taught was teaching there. And the money situation to, to actually get to the answer to your question was pretty good, like much better than like Cal arts, for example, which is like, I don't think any money came with that program. It was like all, all loans and cash to it, to pay for that education. And, and I'm like, I'm not really willing to do that.
3 (1h 11m 28s):
So USC, you, you for two years, and I'm not sure what it is today, but back when I went to the, you teach, you're a TA for two years in your second and third year, and the amount of money that you earn as a TA, essentially offsets the costs of the program. And in the first,
1 (1h 11m 54s):
What did you TA what did you theater
3 (1h 11m 57s):
Theater history classes. So like your TA saying essentially the first four classes in a series of theater, history classes for incoming undergrads in the, in the theater program. So you're teaching the Greeks, you're teaching, you know, all the, all the old ship. So that's kind of the money situation. I however, still took out loans because yeah, because you need money. So I did it kind of like I was not, I wasn't particularly smart about it.
3 (1h 12m 37s):
I maintained a full-time job 40 hours a week throughout the three years, including when I was teaching.
1 (1h 12m 47s):
Were you on crack cocaine
3 (1h 12m 49s):
At the time? At the time did not consume any alcohol did not do any drugs. I was just, I don't know, adrenaline. And you were designed to fire and it was terrible. It was, it was so unhealthy. It was literally 5:00 AM go do homework and writing, et cetera. And depending on the class schedule, either go to day job or go to class, come back, go to day job, maybe go to a night class, depending again, depending on the schedule. And then my job was very, very generous with, with my schedule.
3 (1h 13m 34s):
And I lived very close to work, which was, which was helpful. They allowed me to stretch my schedule, however I could seven days a week. So I really was when class was in session, when we were in semester, I was working seven days a week because I was making up work hours on Saturdays and Sundays, which meant I didn't do a lot, especially in the first, in the first year, a lot of bonding, I didn't do a lot of like extra activities on campus because I had to JTFO get to work.
1 (1h 14m 10s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 14m 13s):
Yeah. I bet that's. I mean, I, I'm sorry, but I'll let you say what you're gonna say in a second, but I think that might've had something to do with why you might've been somewhat perceived if you were as a curmudgeon or whatever, because that you, you just knew so precisely what the value of the education was. And also because literally your time was so precious, wherever you were chosen, choosing to put your energy at any given moment, literally meant like money for you. And that is just a classic thing about people who are coming to theater school when they're young and not a carer, not just really not a sense of what it actually means to me to make it in the business versus people that are older.
2 (1h 14m 57s):
So pause, go ahead. What are
1 (1h 14m 59s):
No, that's exactly right on what I was going to say in terms of, like, I thought people, because I was young and ridiculous thought people were being rude and really those people were actually hustling to live. Some of them had kids, some of them had, and I think there's a misunderstanding that like, if you don't bond, if you're not part of the team, if you're that you're just a jerk, but really it's like these people have fucking lives, you know? And so I think that's some of the weirdness of undergrad and grad, you know, like being, you know, it's just, everyone comes into, like you said, in different places. And it's just, I was so self-absorbed, I was so self-absorbed, there were people that were just like, literally like going to be evicted because they couldn't pay their rent.
1 (1h 15m 44s):
You know what I mean?
2 (1h 15m 46s):
So did you, how did it work with the curriculum? Did you, I mean, the practical part, did you get to produce your players? Did you workshop scenes? How did that work
3 (1h 15m 58s):
As part of the program in your second year, you have like a fully produced workshop that is essentially with the undergrad theater students. So you're working with undergrad actors and undergrad designers and stage managers, et cetera, with, with a professional director from outside school. And that's because I have a friend ahead of me in the program who, when I was a first year, she was a third year. So I already knew a lot about, about the program and the dynamics of it and what to expect. So I knew that the second year was like, that really is your, like your big production that you, that happens for you in the three years.
3 (1h 16m 48s):
And, and I've, I already, at this point had like a, an opinion and feelings about how younger actors are thrust into positions that are way outside of their demographic, particularly with age. And I didn't wanna, I didn't want to have that experience. So I ended up writing a play for age appropriate actors, and I didn't use a play that I was already sort of writing for our class or like potentially my thesis, because I was because I think some in some ways, because I was older, I was thinking about characters who were older too. So I didn't want to have, middle-aged like a cast of middle-age folks and, and I wanted to get something out to be experienced and I wanted them to get something out of the experience.
3 (1h 17m 36s):
So I wrote a play about teenagers to give them characters that they could really sink their teeth into
2 (1h 17m 46s):
What I'm to literally what Eric goes in did. He was, yeah. When he was getting his degree,
1 (1h 17m 51s):
The same thing. And also, you know, what I, the word that keeps coming to mind for you is strategic. The shit was strategic. Like it, I think that's comes with age and experience and like hard knocks is we learn, at least I'll speak for myself, how to be more strategic instead of just throwing shit around and seeing what sticks bumbling around. So you were a more strategic student. So how does your play go with the team?
3 (1h 18m 22s):
I, again, depends on who you ask the best experience. I loved my cast. I still love them today. I love my director still. Like we maintained a friendship after this was all over. I just, I just loved the experience so much. It was a play about runaway teenagers and them finding like the found family that is created when they are out in the streets, trying, trying to survive. And it was the best, best experience so much. I, I would, what's it called? What's it called?
3 (1h 19m 2s):
It's called, what is it called now? It was called tales from tent city when I did it. Oh. And I did it back then. And now there's sort of like what sounds like a bit of an esoteric title, but it's now called dance and crawl and sing and fall in the title. The title comes from in the play. It's a play with songs. So there are like, I remember like maybe like seven songs. One of the characters is like a busker. And so that's the title now is a lyric from one of the songs in the play. So yeah, I love it.
3 (1h 19m 44s):
And I ended up having some, a side note. I ended up having the opportunity to workshop it with other college age students over the years at two other colleges. And that's really just sort of super fulfilling. And I really enjoyed that.
2 (1h 19m 60s):
The thing that's sticking out to me about the first part of our conversation was this. You were talking about finding acceptance that you were going to be buried under a pile of your unproduced plays. Now you have published plays, just not produced plays if I, if I've got that right. And it's very timely that we're interviewing you this week because of what just went down with the black list, opening up their services such as they are to play rights for. And so the kerfuffle for people who don't know is that most playwrights have their plays on new play exchange, which has a flat fee per per month for, for hosting your plays in your profile and the black list.
2 (1h 20m 45s):
As far as I understand all the Franklin lettering came out and maybe you've made some clarification, but it's $30 per month per script, or scrapped like, and Brian, James, you have a lot of plays on new play exchange. So that would be completely exorbitantly expensive for you. So I really curious to hear what your thoughts are about the whole.
3 (1h 21m 7s):
Yeah, well, it is really sort of like a collision between capitalism and art in a big way. And from, I mean, Franklin Leonard, my correct me, but it seems like the blacklist is a, is a business endeavor, right? So you have to look at it like a business endeavor. There is a profit to be made. There are employees, right. There are people to be paid, et cetera. And I think it's like, I think it's, it's, it's also collision between what's normal and usual in the film and television world. And what's normal and usual in the theater world and film and television is very much more a capitalistic endeavor and theater is very much not that like we are not making money.
3 (1h 21m 54s):
Nobody is, is running plays to make money. And nobody's making a living as a, as a playwright. I, so with that said, and I followed this, this discussion online and read a lot of what Franklin has said about it. And I think he's a, he's a very good representative for this project that he's started, you know, and I think this project has been for screenwriters really kind of wonderful because there, before the blacklist, there were very few sort of open access channels for people to sort of, to have that feeling of it's it's a little bit more democratized for a screenwriter to get seen.
3 (1h 22m 38s):
It's an opportunity, but there is costs to it. I would not look at it like the new play exchange because the new play exchange is actually a one year or a one it's like $12 a year for new play exchange to host as many plays as you feel like. And he just can't compare the two on, on the blacklist. If I was to use it, I would find my one strongest play and maybe host it at, during this free cycle. Like he's allowing plays to be hosted for free for a period of time.
3 (1h 23m 18s):
But the sort of like catch on on the blacklist is you pay for reviews and it's the reviews that sort of bump your work up. So if you get a strong review of your play, you earn more time on the site. And the more positive reviews you get, the more likelihood it is that the other people will see this script, but it does take, it does take investment
1 (1h 23m 46s):
Basically. Well, basically it's all a multi-level marketing scam. I mean, I know that it's not, but that is what
2 (1h 23m 55s):
No, it is because for the majority of plays that are written, there is no end user. I mean, if you take every single play that's being written in 2022, even, you know, 1% of them have an end user, I E a theater that's going to produce it and all the rest is
1 (1h 24m 15s):
Okay. So the other thing that I'm really wondering is like, okay, so I'm in this in LA I'm, I'm, I'm meeting a lot of people and a lot of them are playwrights turn television writers. Right. And that's how they're making their money now. And so I'm wondering if also, frankly, he, I mean, he's picked up on that, right. And he's like, okay, so Hollywood wants real writers, playwrights. I did quotes air quotes, you know, like they think playwrights have the answers a lot of time to television problems. And so I'm wondering if it's all, it's all just theaters, all, it's all just getting turned into this sort of Hollywood, like stuff.
1 (1h 24m 55s):
It's just amazing.
3 (1h 24m 56s):
It could be, I honestly think Franklin's in it for the right reasons. I don't think he's trying to scam people. He, he seems to, because he's really, he's answering every question and he's confronting and he's being honest and sincere. I really just think it's a mentality that we're, we are very used to in the screenwriting world of paying a lot of fees, like fees are all over the place in a way that it's just, it's just not a, it's becoming less and less common in the theater world. And so I just think it's like a collision of two things that maybe don't belong together.
3 (1h 25m 38s):
You know,
1 (1h 25m 41s):
We'll have to
3 (1h 25m 41s):
Seem like they should, like writing is writing, right. Dramatic writing is dramatic writing. So on the surface, it seems like these two things could co-exist well, but I, I just think that the dynamics are just, the worlds are just so unbelievably different than it's causing all this conflict.
2 (1h 25m 58s):
So I have a question for both of you guys. I directed a play in my town a couple of years ago, and we like it. Like it is the perennial story. We're having a hard time getting tickets. So I, as much as I could, would pay for the house by just inviting people that, that I knew who wouldn't otherwise. And so many of them had never seen a play before. So many of them, it was their first time. And, and there was just so many people saying like, oh, wow, plays. I never really would have thought that, you know, I would enjoy going to a theater. Now I attribute that to the fact that we don't have really anything in the way of arts education in our public school, but systems, but what, what else is the answer?
2 (1h 26m 49s):
Why else is it because of money? Is it because it's so much cheaper to watch television and see movies? I mean, because people pay handsomely, for example, for the experience of going to see a football game, what the, you know, why don't people find inherent value in seeing life before
3 (1h 27m 10s):
I have a roundabout answer to this shocking, I spent some time in Poland during my, during grad school and after grad school, I took several trips to Poland and I got introduced to the way the Polish people and Europeans interact with theater. And my first trip was in, was in 2012 there in my second semester of school. And I met all these playwrights and I attended a play a theater festival, all these amazing Polish productions of plays. And it's, it is like, we're talking about like, just a moment ago, we were talking about how the film and television world is colliding with the theater world.
3 (1h 27m 59s):
I think comparing the way the public interacted with theater in Poland with the way people do in the United States is like too, it's you can't, you almost can't compare it because it's just so unbelievably different. It's part of the cultural fabric they're like going to the theater is one of the options alongside going to the movies in, in Warsaw, Poland, where I, where I was. And I was like astounded by it. And a lot of it is because, and this is changing in Poland and, and other Eastern and central European countries, but the government supports the theaters.
3 (1h 28m 39s):
There are public several public theaters that aren't spending 90% of their time fundraising. They're spending their time on the art. And there are playwrights that money trickles down to them. These playwrights that I met on this first trip to Poland are supported. They don't have, like, they were, they were surprised to hear about our job situation, like playwrights have day jobs and things that working in day jobs that are related to the making of theater. And that was the kind of the status quo. And I think that's like, it's a, it's a difference is so cultural.
3 (1h 29m 21s):
It's so different. It's you can't take the, some kind of secret sauce and apply it here. And then, and then make the things change. It's like teaching plays that aren't Shakespeare from a young age. So that there's an understanding that these, these are works that are created today by living writers, just like there are novels that are created by living writers today. I think consent for speaking for myself as a student, I didn't know theater was something that was made today. When I was a kid, when I was growing up all the theater authors, I thought all the plays were already written in that were already written in the past.
3 (1h 30m 8s):
And it wasn't an active contemporary art form. And that's because my public school upbringing included some Shakespeare and nothing else. And then anything that I saw was like guys and dolls, you know, west side, it was, it was all from before I was born era. And, and I think that's part of that's part of it is like we don't value our living writers in a way that, that we used to maybe, maybe, maybe I don't, I don't, I don't have capitalism is probably the, the reason for everything, but everything that's going wrong, but I don't know.
3 (1h 30m 54s):
I think we may be, we need, maybe we need to start a podcast that is about capitalism and theater.
1 (1h 31m 2s):
Yeah. Like, I definitely feel like, I feel like I don't understand either, like what, but I know this, that, that television, somehow we made television work, like, right, right. Like bright people, Brian people pay for television streaming services. Right. So it's not, it's not just plug it. So we value streaming services. We just don't value theater. Like we used to, and now with the pandemic, of course that's a whole nother thing. But even way before that, obviously like you're talking about, it's interesting. It's like we want, so I studied.
1 (1h 31m 42s):
And maybe you did too. Like I, I studied for awhile, the history of film, right. And history of film, writing and history of, and so, and then, and how it, it, my understanding how it started was like they had, you know, obviously they were silent films, blah, blah, blah. And when they started to write titles and when they started to write things and scripts, and they in the invention of sound for, for films came, they needed people to write the titles and write the things. So they went to, they didn't know who to go to. Right. So they went to, they went to journalists and then when the journalists were all exhausted, they went to, to the theater, to theater folks.
1 (1h 32m 23s):
Right. So I've just, I wonder if there, and now what I'm seeing is literally everyone I talked to is like, oh, you want to get repped by a manager. You want to get it. You want to get into a room writing for television, which is what I'm trying to do. They're like write, start writing plays. I was like, wait, what is happening? So we go to the theater when we are looking for quality, and yet we are not willing to pay people to actually do the theater. It's so interesting. It's like when the theater folks can be used to, to make Hollywood look good, we will go to the theater. Meaning we will pluck the talent from the theater, usually in Chicago, New York and other places.
1 (1h 33m 3s):
And then, and then bring them to LA. But it's like, we don't inherently value the fricking theater. It's so weird to me. And yet also we have conservatories where people's pay, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to actually still study
3 (1h 33m 17s):
Yes. A grade with all of that. And I'll add that from the perspective of like a regular, everyday person, where do you need to go to access all the great film and television, like, look over my shoulder. Like I have to go two feet behind me to sit on a couch to turn it on and watch it. And if I live in the middle of nowhere, like Northern Wisconsin, where's the nearest theater. Cray knows you. You don't know. It's just like, it's, it's just not as ubiquitous and not as easy to access. It's just like, the TV is very easy to access.
3 (1h 33m 57s):
The theater takes not just monetary investment, but time and physical. Like you need to get up out of your seats to get in the car so much.
2 (1h 34m 11s):
And I actually kind of think that the, another sort of debate that that's been happening since the pandemic is this very tired debate about whether, you know, digital theater is real theater and theater has long had this Luddite sort of backbone where, you know, probably it, to me, it feels like sour grapes, like ever since movies came along, there's just been this rejection of technology, but one of the best ideas I've ever heard for how to ameliorate this problem that we're talking about of theater not being part of our cultural fabric is from Jeremy O. Harris, who really is into this idea of bringing VR to schools so that kids can see plays, but it feels somewhat more like it probably isn't exactly the same so that it feels somewhat more like being there than, you know, watching something on video.
2 (1h 35m 8s):
And I feel like maybe where the dam is going to break is we're going to have to come to the, and we're going to attempt to really embrace technology, not just so that we have cool lighting grids, but like in all of the ways for accessibility, for this very reason, because we're a part of the problem. If we're not making it more accessible. Right.
3 (1h 35m 29s):
Yeah. I love the accessibility that has sort of spawned out of the pandemic timeline that we're still living in. And I love the people that are embracing it and trying to find ways to, to spread this out and embrace it. It's theater, if you think it's theater from my, from my perspective, but ultimately I feel like theater is never gonna go away. Like theater is always going to be meaningful because it's meaningful to some people and it's not for everybody. And I think, I think if we're trying to make it for everybody, we're, we're fighting a losing fight. And maybe that's not the point. I think the point is to keep an eye start locally, you know, you're building your art locally and you're working with people in person locally, and you're starting, you're starting there and who are the people that you can find locally and, and then that's your base.
3 (1h 36m 28s):
And then you can build up from there, you can use VR, you can use, you know, all kinds of digital theater to, to expand outward. But I think if you maintain a focus on the, the local ideal, then I think, I think you can be okay, but it's just theater is just never gonna be this money-making thing where everybody's going to be able to live a sustainable life because they're just, it's not for enough people, the way that film and television is for millions and millions more.
1 (1h 37m 0s):
It's so interesting. So I wonder then about the necessity for theater schools, right? I mean, like, look, if we're, and I, there is no answer, but like these, and I think that's what we're seeing in conservatories are like struggling to stay relevant and to say no, to do training as a theater actor or a playwright is still essential when the job, when you can't really make a living at it, is it essential? I mean, it's so unless the government gets, gets involved in funds it, unless somebody funds the shit, it's going to be interesting to see if theater conservatories, especially for acting, stay around theater wise, unless, you know, cause like film and TV classes, you, you know, you can do on zoom and Bubba, but I teach theater on zoom, right?
1 (1h 37m 54s):
So it a very bizarre fate, but I find myself as I'm teaching these kiddos at conservatories on zoom because of the pandemic, I am naturally naturally teaching more film and television skills. Cause that's what we're on. And it's hard to teach fricking theater on zoom and it just is and masks and all that shit, you know, and the students are together at mast. I can't see what the fuck's going on. So, but anyway, it's just, it's, it's really, really interesting time. And it's also, I think it's good that we're starting to have at least, you know, the conversations about all this stuff because yeah, if not, we're gonna, it's just, it's just going to be miserable for everybody involved.
3 (1h 38m 37s):
I said for theater schools, I think it's valuable if it's valuable to you, if the, if it's meaningful, if it means something to you, like you're the one person that gets to say whether or not it matters taking, like attending these schools and learning and learning about theater and acting or play writing or directing. I think where it becomes dangerous is when schools give the impression that when you graduate, there's going to be some kind of like a promise of a professional life based on what you just learned. That's just, that's the fallacy.
3 (1h 39m 20s):
So you can't like, this is not a, this is not a, a study that's going to lead to a promise of jobs. And if you're okay with that, I was okay with that. It's had to attend to grad school and getting my MFA because I knew it wasn't gonna promise me anything. And I, so I was like, that's fine. And I, so I didn't have that as part of my experience, in my expectation of graduating, I hoped like I had hoped ever since that every place would lead to something. But I, you know, I'm aware that that's not in control of that.
2 (1h 40m 3s):
So we've talked a lot about how every single person who, who goes to an acting program hears multiple times and from multiple sources, you know, there's a, there's almost a 0% chance that you will be able to make a living as an actor, just FYI. And then everybody to a person says, yeah, okay. But I'm, I'm going to be the exception. Did you have that thought when you were leaving
3 (1h 40m 27s):
Your MFA? I would be like an exception. Yes I did. Because I saw there's a, this playwright who I love Marjorie shaker, who was a year ahead of me, she won, she won an award before. So before I was at USC USC, wasn't producing a lot of award play rights there. We're producing a lot of playwrights that the carrot at the end of the stick of USDA's program is the film school. Because when I attended a playwright, playwright, students were kind of Trojan horse into the film school.
3 (1h 41m 10s):
You were allowed to take a lot of film classes at USC. And that was a, that would draw. Would you draw a lot of people into the program monitoring came in and she won this great theater and it's play writing award. I can't, no, I can't remember the name of it, but it led to a lot of success for her and, and
1 (1h 41m 31s):
In the theater or in the film later.
3 (1h 41m 35s):
And I was like, Marjorie did it. I can do it. And so I desperately wanted to win the same award that she won, saw the ripple effect. Like it led to this, led to this and led to this and led to this. And my shoe bruhs had me believing that I was, you know, special and that I was going to win that. And I didn't, I didn't even come wasn't even a finalist for it. But however, I did win a couple of Kennedy center, college theater, festival awards. I won two coming in my final semester of grad school. And as far as I know, no other USC writer before me had won any of these and I got two of them and, and it was unbelievable.
3 (1h 42m 25s):
It was like amazing. And I really thought that this would anoint me in some way. So I, I went in very much aware this doesn't lead to anything promised. And, but I came out with some winning things that didn't go in expecting to win and, and thinking that, oh, I'm I, because every year there's a cycle of students graduating with MFAs and a handful of them become anointed to, to the, the commissions and all the things. And I thought I was going to be in that group when I came out and I wasn't, I was just another writer.
3 (1h 43m 8s):
And that was a little surprising to me and deflating.
1 (1h 43m 15s):
I was gonna say, like, I just have to say, I was so touched hearing that you won those two awards. I mean, it's cool that you want them, but I think a deeper meaning for me is like, as human beings, we must have the hope that we are the exception or we wouldn't do anything. I wouldn't do anything. So like I have to hold we're so desperately clinging, especially into the arts in the arts, I think, and entertainment, worlds that we are the exception. And, and maybe in everything, like when we're diagnosed with something or when we're a loved one is I am a bird I love and we'll stand behind people that think they are the exception every time, because it's, it's like part of what is so beautiful about being a human being.
1 (1h 44m 4s):
And the only thing that keeps me going sometimes is hearing these stories and anyway, whatever, that's just what I thought when you were talking was like, of course, like,
2 (1h 44m 13s):
Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. No, it's, it's, it's part of our design. It's built into our wiring because otherwise yeah. Why would we keep going? So, but what, what, Brian, what is your understanding of what has been the disconnect in terms of people wanting to make your amazing award winning plays into productions
3 (1h 44m 35s):
Or a multitude of reasons? And I think some of it is, I'm not right. Like I haven't written the right play at the right time. Like the plays that I've written, just aren't landing with people. I'm not as good as I think I am. And sometimes the plays that maybe are good enough are, it's just so hard to find the right eyes to get your play in front of them. That my place I've just, you know, I'm not represented. I haven't, I've never been represented. I've been hustling on my own all along. And I, like you talked about, you described me as strategic when I was in, when I was in grad school.
3 (1h 45m 16s):
And that's kinda like, I kind of like cringe a little bit at that word, but it is the right word. I, I try, like I follow every opportunity I can find and, and I follow through whenever I can. And, and it just, I think, I think the biggest reason is because I just haven't written the right play at the right time and gotten it to the right person. I don't, I don't believe I'm a good writer. I know I'm a good writer, but I also know that there are a million good writers out there. And I know there are a lot of great plays that don't see the light of day. You know, I, I, this is one of the things I've learned doing the podcast is that there are so many playwrights writing and working and trying really hard and just not getting there.
3 (1h 46m 3s):
I also think that the, the, the history of theater has been the majority of privileged white cisgendered men. And I came up, I've been coming up at a time when the industry is trying to push back on that and not just elevate to the same people that it has elevated for generations. And is that a contributing factor? Probably, but like, it's not one I'm complaining about it because it's, I understand, you know, and neither I understand,
1 (1h 46m 38s):
I can ask you because you're, you're, you seem like a really open dude. How do you work with you personally? And there's, you know, cause how do you, how do record with that? Like how do you say, like I'm a good writer and maybe it's not my time, so then what the fuck do you do? Like, I literally don't know what you mean.
3 (1h 47m 1s):
Yeah. Well, I don't feel entitled to anything. So that's kind of my starting point. I'm not entitled to success. I'm not entitled for this next play to be read by the Pulitzer committee or, or be produced on Broadway or be even given them zoom reading, you know, like I don't think I'm entitled to any of it. And because that's kind of my starting point, it makes my ability to just continue working a little bit easier. What I care about is writing the next play and just doing the best I can with it. And then where it goes, I can control like so little of it and part of, part of my journey to get to this point of view.
3 (1h 47m 47s):
Cause I haven't always been, you know, like this is thinking about the concept of success and what success means and, and how I've con, and this question comes up a lot in my podcast. Like what is success to you? And everybody has very different answers to it. And I've decided that it successes of is, is, is fluid. And we define success for ourselves. And if I'm going to say the only way for me to be X success, success, or my new play to be a success is it needs to win a Pulitzer and go to Broadway.
3 (1h 48m 28s):
Then I'm, I'm setting myself up for a lot of sadness. So I've decided that success to me is working as hard as I can to write the best play I can. And at the end of the day, if I've done that work and I'm happy with the thing I created, then that's success.
2 (1h 48m 50s):
I love that. I love that. And I, I'm going to go on and Elim and make a prediction that either later in your life, or God forbid, posthumously, the people will discover your work and they'll come back and listen to this podcast. And they'll say, he said it, he said it right there, because the reason I'm saying that is because that stance you're adopting of not feeling entitled is truly the only stance to have. Like, it's like the only stance you're doing something wrong because
1 (1h 49m 25s):
Yeah. And I just love that you, that it's like, I think you said it, we got to start somewhere. And I think like you've said it, we start and we always talk about it on this podcast, but like it's an inside job, right? So like, and I was just listening to tic, not Han who passed away saying like, you literally, he's not even making a week. You're not even making a pie in the sky kind of thing. It's like, I have to start from the starting point of where am I coming at this work from? And it, and being honest about it because we talk a lot too, like if you want to make a budget dollars, and if you can be honest about that, then you know, okay, I want to be a playwright that they get to, to television that then runs the show.
1 (1h 50m 10s):
And then while I I'm rich or whatever, but if you literally are like, no, no, what matters to me value wise is creating good art with good people. And I am willing to do that. And even if it means that my financial abundance does not come from it, I think it's a lot, you're at least being honest at your and saying, okay, so like maybe I will die. Like you said, it brings it all full circle. So maybe I will die under a pile of unplugged. Maybe not unpublished works. Maybe not, but I'm willing to do it because I want to make good art. The willingness is BR is going to save us all.
3 (1h 50m 47s):
I like what you're saying. And Gina, you saying that I'm maybe posthumously, right? I keep thinking about how I'm dead under a pile of plays. And somebody is like, what's that smell? I come into the room and they push away these scripts and they're like, oh, Brian died. Hey, wait, welcome. This is a great New Hampshire. This is interesting. What's this play. And they sit in the room, they read this play. And then they're like, oh wait, I still have to do something about this dead person here.
1 (1h 51m 24s):
They're like, we better call the guy.
2 (1h 51m 27s):
And then, and then they're like, wait, how did this happen? He was just laying on the ground. So we started If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc.
2 (1h 52m 15s):
Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: writing comedy, Joss Whedon, unproblematic men, putting public figures on a pedestal, the hierarchy vs. collaboration dialectic.
Let Me Run This By You: White coat hypertension, writing seminars, Boz's success story!, navigating systems for your own benefit.
Interview: We talk to Reduced Shakespeare Company's Austin Tichenor about UC Berkeley, Boston University, law school, surviving a directing MFA.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Sean rock is comedic, true crime, serial killer thrillers. I don't know what that means. Great. I'm getting my popcorn ready to be very specific.
1 (48s):
So, and yeah, so I think that that's, I'm sort of finding my way in terms of like what? So I, I, I felt like, okay, I need to bite the bullet because it's also 30 pages. So it's not a lot like compared to a 60 page. Oh my God. So it's half the, not half the work, but like you have half the real estate, which in some ways is harder in some ways. So anyway, I had this idea and I, I have a friend of mine. Who's a comedy writer and I, I, and we were talking about this idea of these two women, sort of a dumb and dumber, but for women. And so we started, yeah. And we have these conference rooms here and speaking of dumb and dumber. So we have these conference from here with glass walls.
1 (1m 30s):
Right. And there's like dry erase markers. And there's, you can see some kind of old writing on the glass walls. Well, so we're writing, I'm writing in my, you're not supposed to write it in the glass walls. It, in fact does not come off the glass, speaking of dumb and dumber. So then I'm like, so someone knocks on the door and is like, Hey, you guys know that you're not supposed to be writing on the glass walls. And literally I've written on the whole wall. And I'm like, oh my God. So it took me an hour to get off with scrubs and I had to use different rag. Anyway, it's the stupidest thing because there's no other place to write in the room and there's no whiteboards, so there's something wrong here. But so in, in step with, with sort of dumb and dumber, but anyway, so we're writing this like half hour comedy about just two women that are really dumb, but they're not really dumb.
1 (2m 24s):
Of course they're genius in their own way. But I liked the idea of like seeing women. Yeah. Just seeing women do really dumb shit like bridesmaids, you know, like you're like, yeah, like that kind of a thing. So I don't know how it's going to go. And we just started and we're like meeting, you know, once every couple of weeks, but like, it's good for me too. I also, there's a to study comedy. Like I'm never in my life, like I've done a lot of sort of study and research about drama and crime, but nothing on comedy. And there's a course, a million classes and stuff like that, which I'm not taking, but there's also like books and stuff that I always shied away from.
1 (3m 7s):
I think it was scared. Like, I don't know how you feel, but like, I feel like comedy is so hard to do right. That like, I just was scared of it.
2 (3m 16s):
Yeah. 90% of the comedy you see is terrible. I mean, and that's just talking about the stuff that gets made. So yeah, no, it's really a comedy is, as the saying goes, whatever it is, death, death is hard comedies. I forget. There's something about death. Something's harder. Writing comedy is harder than death, but that thing that you were saying about the toxic work environment, I've heard that too. And actually I was just reading the New York article about Josh Sweden.
1 (3m 50s):
Oh my God. Yes. And about the writers in the room and that, that one writer and he's reading or shit, and he's like making fun. I mean, he should be fucking, I mean, I shouldn't say that he should be hurt badly.
2 (4m 4s):
So for people who don't know, Josh Sweden was the showrunner of Buffy the vampire Slayer. And he was heralded as a feminist. I mean, icon practically. In fact, when I first heard that he was not who he appeared to be, I instantly flashed, I had this patient who had endured a lot in her life. Let's just say that. And she was extremely feminist and that was her favorite show. And he was her favorite person. And, and I distinctly remember her saying, he's like one of the only good guys in, in Hollywood, something like that, something to that effect.
2 (4m 53s):
And honestly, what the hell, I mean, please write a profile about unproblematic men. I it's gotten to the point where I'm like, is nobody
1 (5m 5s):
I'm doing the right thing. I just, I mean, you said a brilliant line, like which I'm going to steal and put in my script, which is in, in hold my calls, which is he's one of the Hollywood good guys or something like that. I think we all are. So looking for that, that when someone appears to be that we cling to them desperately in hopes that they will save all other men and it never works. Like they're all problematic. And I think of course we're all problematic all humans, but, but this is a special brand of problematic in Hollywood in creating art in, in showrunning land and also just Hollywood in general.
1 (5m 49s):
So like, this is a very specific type of toxic asshole man. And there are so many, so many. And so I agree, I need a profile about, but see, as soon as that comes out, there's going to be a woman that's like that dude. Fuck.
2 (6m 4s):
Oh, yeah. Right, right. Right. So remember when you were getting your MFA and you were had to watch all those old films and you said they were all written by women. What I never heard is when, why did that change and what was the,
1 (6m 20s):
So nobody, they, they ran out of men, journalists, writers to write the sort of storylines for the new, for new movies. Right. For the new art of cinema. So first they were silent. Right. And then, then there were titles, you know, let people wrote. And those were written by usually at the beginning, mostly journalist men. Right. And like newspaper, men like that, then they literally ran out. I think of men, people that could write. Right. So they, so women started submitting write some under fake names under, but a lot under their real names. And they didn't give a shit because they didn't get credit.
1 (7m 1s):
So nobody cared. They were women. Right. Cause it wasn't, they weren't on the screen. So as writers, so women really took over, like they, they, I think they just took over. Okay. So that was going great until I believe what happened was until the, the money men got involved from New York. Yeah. So it became a business. So then the money men financed the films, bankers and then women, I think like the first world war, right. Was what was, was, well, I don't know,
2 (7m 41s):
1917
1 (7m 43s):
Something like, I don't know. We're, we're, I'm dumb. So, but like around there the men had to go to war and the women had to take care of the kids. Right. So there was no one to there. They couldn't, it transitioned to more stereotypical gender roles and women stopped writing and then it just took over for
2 (8m 2s):
Yeah, I see. Okay. Well you're right. I mean, it's also like, it's fine for you to do all this work as long as you're not taking credit, but when it comes time for everybody to really recognize this as an art form than intake credit, then it has to be men. Well, okay. So, I mean, I never watched Buffy. I never got into him. I just read that he, his father was a television writer wrote for the golden girls. So that makes us like, okay, so that's how you got in. And he grew up like rich on the upper west side. I think actually the problem is the way that we want to deify people who seem good because then, and actually, this is what I said in the article, because then they have no place to go.
2 (8m 55s):
But you know what I'm saying? Like the majority of humans, if not all, I've done regrettable things. So let's, don't put any, let's just, don't put anybody on such a pedestal, but then we do that because we need heroes. It's a very complicated thing and we can't get out of it. It's just the paradigm we cannot get out of.
1 (9m 20s):
Got it. It started with the Bible. I mean, it's Jesus, it's the Jesus thing. It goes back to whenever. So we need someone to feel like. And I think if you spent to feel like they're going to save us, right. And if you take it for the psychological bent, right. It's like parenting, we're looking for the good dad and the good mom that by the way, don't exist that we have
2 (9m 43s):
To do not exist. We have to
1 (9m 44s):
Build it inside. Oh my gosh. I adore them. I wear them all the time.
2 (9m 50s):
They're really, really good on you. Oh, good. Yeah.
1 (9m 52s):
Gorgeous. Yeah.
2 (9m 55s):
For interrupting you. No, no, no, no.
1 (9m 56s):
I love it. They're like my favorites. Okay. So yeah. I mean like w we, I think it comes down to, and you, and I always talk about this. So like in my dream, kind of, we have basically I've decided like a psychology podcast, but a different kind of psychology podcast. We already have a psychology podcast, but I'm just saying we have a arts and psychology podcasts, but I am obsessed with this idea now that like, and it looks, it's no, it's no shocker that, you know, this is a whole personal growth industry built on this, but like internally we have to build the good mom and dad. And we have to build the savior because, or not even a savior, a helper, because if not, we are destined to repeat this, but then it also makes for really good television, you know, like cold shows and stuff like that.
1 (10m 45s):
But like, it's, it's an inside job, you know, is one of those phrases that they throw around and program and 12 step program and stuff. But it's true. It's fucking, it's
2 (10m 56s):
True. It's true. It's
1 (10m 58s):
So boring in a way, but it's just true.
2 (11m 1s):
Well, what's boring about it is that we, despite like being reminded of this or being uncovering this truth over and over again, like we just can't hold and I'm saying, we meaning me, I cannot hold on to it. I, I know that. And then I forget, and then I want to make somebody else a hero and then I want to feel bad. You know, I want to, and then it's like such a setup for ourselves too, because the way I worshiped bill Cosby, when I was a kid, of course he was America's dad. I needed a dad. That, that makes sense. But there, there was, even if I had found out that like something more innocuous like that, it didn't like dogs or something.
2 (11m 42s):
I, that would have been a disappointment to, I mean, the, the better thing is to say, Hmm, that person is doing some good work. I'm sure they're not perfect because I, I'm not excusing bill, by the way. I don't mean I'm just talking more about like fandom and, and the, and our innate human need to, to make these people seem perfect. And then the feeding frenzy that we do when we learn that they're not actually perfect. And, and it all ends up being a way of not asking yourself what you're not taking. Yeah. And that's what it is. We're always taking everybody else's inventory instead of our own.
2 (12m 23s):
Right.
1 (12m 24s):
And it's deadly. I mean, you know, that's cold, that's, that's abusive relationships, that's domestic violence. It's like we even like organization. So like, so organizations or contests or things that help like I'm looking at, because this is my world right now, like looking at the arts and, and, and Hollywood as like the, the, these organizations, the blacklist, other things, things that were created to help. Right. And then people go, oh my God, this is finally the answer.
2 (12m 57s):
And then it just becomes a problem until the peak,
1 (13m 0s):
Because the people who run it are fallible. Right. Yeah. They're humans. So inevitably there's a downfall. So like, I don't think, I think starting an organization is like the scariest thing in the world. And like, you and I have like a company, but it's different in that. Like, I think we're developing this community so that people are stakeholders, but still, like, I have to say, you know, there is a fear of mine though, like, you know, for, for our listeners where we started this cool group and you're not invited, no, no, we started this cool group, but really it's, it's just, it's like an artist collective. Right. But even that, when people are like, oh, the founders, Jen and Jean, I'm like, oh, shit ball.
2 (13m 42s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Well, and that's the other thing is that we have to have a structure, right? I mean, this is the debate that goes on in my mind all the time. I was good friends with somebody in California who wanted to her dream was to have a theater company where the founding members rotated artistic directorship. So nobody would be artistic director for more than like a year or two. I moved away from California right before she started it. And she started it. And it actually was, I think, pretty successful. It closed during COVID because like everything did. And, and, and even though that sounded so cool to me. And even though I was definitely in my young and idealistic phase phase of life, then a part of me was like that isn't going to work because we're people.
2 (14m 32s):
And because despite our, whatever, our political leanings are, however progressive, we may feel, we are, we ultimately are hardwired to want one or two or a group of small group of people to be in charge. Even, you know, somebody always has to be in charge of the people in charge, Ryan. That's why organizations need these structures.
1 (14m 55s):
Yeah. And that's yeah. And, and that's, yes. That's why shit gets created. Bylaws rules, human resource departments are built on this thing of like, oh, we're going to get into trouble. So we need safety nets or procedures for when that happens. And I just, I just all, I'm just like, oh God, I don't want to get sued. You know what I mean? Like I'm like, please don't please. I'm already in a lawsuit with our evil landlord, former landlords. And I, and I don't want to be, it's like, no,
2 (15m 27s):
Or in a similar position of like, on the one hand, we want to be rich and famous. On the other hand, we
1 (15m 36s):
Don't want any problems.
2 (15m 37s):
We don't want to have the same problems. Yeah. Yeah. That's my husband has a patient who he says is just really looking for the friction free existence. Just wants to have a life with no hassle. He really he's in his early twenties. He's truly, and sincerely seeking a life that is hassle-free. And as we learned from Don who Mo brown, who moved to The Bahamas to live a hassle-free existence, which does not,
1 (16m 6s):
She, she found problem. You like, she found problematic people in paradise. Like, that's the name of my show, problematic people in paradise. It's going to be a show about this woman who escapes and goes to The Bahamas. And then she pitches her Tet and the fucking lady next to her pitching her tent is bonkers. And won't leave her alone. Like that is the greatest idea for comedy ever. But like the thing is this, the thing is like, yeah, I don't know. And I think you're right. I mean, I think the only answer if there is an answer is to turn inward and to look at, okay, like, what's my part in this? Like, did I, and, and if I don't think I have a part, then I need to remove myself, like, what can I do to make the situation better?
1 (16m 53s):
And if it's not possible, then we gotta go. You gotta go. But like the Josh Sweden thing, reading her, the female writers. So she like, you know, that you pitch ideas and then you write dialogue and stuff. And like, he humiliated her in front of a group of writers. And no one stood up for her, of course, because this is also, this is also back in the day, but also it's scary and you're a new writer and what the fuck. So I think what we need is more people like us in rooms, because I'll tell you this. I, as even though I'm an emerging writer, I'm not a writer that needs the money necessarily to live.
1 (17m 38s):
Or if someone came down and said to me, you can't be a television writer or a screenwriter, I would not kill myself. Right. So I don't have that much to lose. Like, look, if I get an, a writing room and be fucking scared shitless. But I also like to think, and maybe I'm wrong that if some shit was going on, like this, I would be like, wait the fuck. I worked in social services. This shit didn't even happen there. We're not going to have it here when it's, this is like a fucking paradise job. So stop this man. Right? Like we're not doing this here, but I, and I would be fired, which would be okay because you know what? I could always go to the Arco and PM. Like I am telling you right now, there is a backup plan.
1 (18m 18s):
And that plan is a minimum wage job that I have done before. So I, while I will be scared, I would like to think, and we'll see if I ever get in a room, but like, I would like to say that I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're being a Dick. Like, we can't do this. And if you're going to do this, I'm going to go. And then I'm going to fucking drag you on Twitter and your career is over. So
2 (18m 39s):
Of course we'd like to think that that's what we would do. I mean, would we really do? And in a given situation, it's hard to say it's truly hard to say. I was proud of myself at the artists collective thing that I said, the thing that I've never said in a situation like that before, which is like, okay, but how are we going to really make this diverse? Like, literally I don't mean let's have ideals and let's post a picture of Martin Luther king on MLK day. I mean, like, how do we actually do something differently? And that will only, I think that only comes from facing what your own fears are about things. I mean, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back. It's just like a very clear progression from when I start to look at all of my stuff, I become less afraid of all of my stuff.
2 (19m 27s):
And when I'm overall less afraid, then I feel more empowered to do, to actually live according to my values, instead of just
1 (19m 34s):
Right. And I think the real step that I'm noticing with you is that you took that sort of, you took a stand in your last organization and said, wait, I can not do this. I can't participate in this. And here's why, and you said what you needed to say, and you removed yourself from the situation, but you, you definitely took a stand. So I think taking a stand in whatever way we can, and it's going to be really interesting to see how we do in the artists collective when shit comes up, because it will come up. You know, one of us is going to write some bias, racist as shit because the human nature, right.
1 (20m 16s):
And then when we're called on it, which I hope we are, it's going to be really interesting to see how I, how you help every person in the collective handles it. It's going to be messy. And it's going to be weird. I think it's going to be important though, to see how we handle it, because that's really a Testament to, is the group gonna last and also, are we going to walk the walk that, am I going to walk the walk of the talk I give? So like, we can use it as a mini exercise and like, what would we do in a writer's room or some kind of entertainment, like thing, if someone does some weird shit, either on purpose or not on purpose. Yeah.
2 (20m 54s):
Yeah. That's it. That's the only thing to fear is fear itself.
1 (21m 10s):
We know it's like the most boring thing, but it's true. Like I hate having my blood pressure taken. I have high blood pressure. It goes up to 180 7 every time in the doctor's office, 180 7 because of my panic, 180 7, like, that's my number. I know it's going to do it. They retake it manually. It goes down to one 40 or one 30. It's like the thing. And I could feel it happening. And the lovely nurse note was supposed, you know, it's so interesting when I told him what was going on with me, I could see he got anxious. And then he started trying to tell me funny stories that weren't funny. And like, he was like, oh, just we'll have a cocktail together. He's not trained. He doesn't know what's happening. So it went way up. And I just thought, you know what?
1 (21m 51s):
That's what it is. He goes, oh yeah, it's 180 7. I was a guest. That's what I said it would be. And then she came in and I talked to my amazing doctor. And by the end she takes it manually. And it went down to one 40 over. I mean, it's fine.
2 (22m 3s):
Why, why do they take blood pressure at the very beginning of an appointment? I mean, they should just always do it at the end of
1 (22m 8s):
Which insurance it's dumb and it's insurance, it's all insurance based. So I think they're trying to get the money out of the way first. So if they do the vitals and they get paid, right. So, so they, but they don't want to do at first, but it's just the way the system is. And my doctor was like, no, we're never doing this again. Like, I'm always, she wants to do it with the cuff first to see where I'm at because that, but she doesn't have to be right at the beginning of the appointment. And then she'll always, they always take it manually. The only reason they don't take it manually, the only reason is to save time.
2 (22m 41s):
Right. And then it's not really saving time in many cases. I mean, I'm sure there must be people out there who don't get that white coat fever, but nobody in my family, every single person in my family has high reading at the beginning of that.
1 (22m 53s):
Yeah. And they think I'm having a stroke. I'm like, no, I'm having a panic attack. Like there's a different thing. And then my doctors get it. They're amazing. But the nurses don't really, I mean, they're not there to, they're not therapists. That's not their jam. They're trying to get your vitals and get the fuck out to the next patient.
2 (23m 7s):
Oh God, that, that thing you're describing of you're with the nurse and he's and his level of experience or whatever means that he's going to be often afraid of situations that are happening, that, that collision of two people's fears in a small space, like a doctor's office is always so overwhelming. And you just, and, and also couple that with the social thing where you can't really say, we're both afraid right now, you know, because he would look, look at you. Like you're crazy. But what if you could say, Jim, we're both afraid right now you're talking about cocktails and appropriately.
2 (23m 51s):
And I have high blood pressure. Yeah. Let's do, let's do something different. Let's pretend like this isn't happening because the other thing that happens to you, I know, I know this for a fact is when you feel like people are pretending your anxiety shoots way and you feel like you're being asked to participate in pretending
1 (24m 12s):
And, and, and, and here's the thing like literally your body can not lie. So you're actually taking a reading of my anxiety. That's what my doctor said. Like, that's all it is. So blood pressure when you take it in the arm is actually just a reading of your arm, the blood flowing through your arm. It is not an indicator literally of what's going on. Otherwise it's not great because it means that everything's working too hard, usually, especially in a non-threatening situation. But she, my cardiologist is brilliant and that she's like, I don't base anything on that. What I base it on is if you, how you feel, I can use it as a gauge, but like, unless I lay hands on you and hear, listen to your heart, check your brain with a scan.
1 (24m 56s):
I don't know what the hell it is. So I it's just ease. People are trying to make things easier. And really it's, it's, we've created a real, a real fucked up situation. But I wish I had said to Leo, his name was Leo. Like I wish I had sent that. Cause he was like, oh my God, we're going to be fine. Oh no, this is the worst. That's like, when you're afraid to fly. And someone's like, oh my God, you're going to be fine. Like, everything's fine. Like, don't worry. And you're like, oh my God, you're fucking crazy. And you're anxious.
2 (25m 23s):
The amount of times I hear somebody say to somebody else don't feel fill in the blank, whatever it is, you're feeling I, what a waste of time don't ever say. I, and I'm saying it to myself too, because I'm sure I say it too. Don't ever tell somebody, you shouldn't feel that way. Don't it just, what you should be saying is wow. When you tell me you feel that way, that makes me really nervous. That whatever I feel that way, or yeah. Yeah. There's just a lot of work to be done in terms of our own self knowledge and honesty and ability, to be honest in all our affairs.
1 (25m 59s):
And so the doctor for me is like doctor and flying is the best way to tell, like where it's the best way to like work out, like what's happening for me because I'm like, oh my God, this is, and I did it. That's the important thing I did it. I, my labs are all fine. Like everything. Like my doctor's amazing. I've lost weight. I have 30 pounds more to go to be like an optimal heart health, you know, which is fine. I want to do that over the next couple of years, I'm fine. But it was traumatizing and it's always traumatizing and she knows it's traumatizing. It's just, it's also the nurses, there's such a high turnover. The last nurse I had, there was amazing. She was this large woman that I adored and by large, I mean, she was like six feet, two.
1 (26m 42s):
And like just large woman. I felt we safe way safe. She's like, I read your chart. She said, I know we know all about you. We're going to just do it. And then we did it and it was low. The first time she took it, she didn't go into,
2 (26m 59s):
By the way, that's what they should be teaching people. Whether it's true or not tell the patient, you read their chart. That is some, everybody struggles with this thing of like, oh really? I'm going to repeat to you the same thing. I've already now repeated three times to other people in this same office. I'm going to answer verbally questions that you just had me answer on paper. I, I know that that's for insurance too, but like do yourselves and everybody else a favor, just let the patient know. I mean, it'd be ideal if you read the chart, if you actually did read the chart, right. It's not just tell them you did
1 (27m 36s):
The other thing that happens in. Yeah. Right. Lie. I don't care if you lie to me, but it's not. It's like the intention behind the thing. So like the other thing on my, I am at St. John's and I love the system of what w when you literally type in my name, because I've seen my doctor do it, the issues come up and you could see it. So it says, if you try it, when my chart pops up, it says white, the first thing it says is white coat hypertension, like in big letters. And then it says mood disorder. Then it says, AFib, like, those are the things you don't even have to read the chart. You could get the subtype,
2 (28m 13s):
The bullet
1 (28m 13s):
Points. Yeah. You could read the cliff notes right there in big letters. And she did that. I'm sure she didn't like look into the minutia, my child, of course.
2 (28m 20s):
Right, right, right, right. Yeah.
1 (28m 22s):
And of course it was lower when she took it with the cuff. It was one 50. So it's like, anyway, I have this whole I'm on this whole crusade to like, not change the medical system. Cause fuck all that. But to like, really look at okay, like since they're probably not going to change, right. Because of whatever, how can I do it? And basically I just have to go through it. Like I,
2 (28m 43s):
Yeah. You just got to go through it. That's it. There's no way. There's no way out. But through this weekend I participated, I took a writing workshop seminar, and I'm not going to say who it was with because I won't, I mean, I'll tell you, I should tell you it, I charge we'll bleep this out. It was will end.
1 (29m 7s):
Oh yeah. Playwrights.
2 (29m 9s):
Okay. Yeah. So I took this writing workshop and it was whatever it was 150 or $175. And it was a two-hour workshop where it didn't give a lot of detail about what was actually going to be in the workshop, except for the two main people who were the mentors in it. And what it turned out to me is the first hour was a Q and a, between those two writers, which it's Hmm. You, each of you have a look at PDF page. I do know the answer to most of these questions already.
2 (29m 50s):
And then the second half was writing exercises, which were actually good. I mean, you know, I, I love a writing exercise. One of them was write a scenario, a scenario that's impossible to write something that's impossible to stage. Mine was a peacock smoking a cigarette. Fantastic. So your mind goes into, I mean, just the act of doing the writing exercises is freeing. I couldn't help like Carrie Bradshaw. I couldn't help, but wonder if that's great. That's a great way. What are we doing here?
2 (30m 30s):
Like Mariah? Okay. Writing. Actually I have like 15 books on my nightstand that are full of writing prompts. Like that's not really what I needed from you. I needed from you. And, and here's the thing I want to run by you. Like, what did I need for, what did I need from this? What was I actually looking for? Well, if I'm honest with myself, I'm always hopeful that when I get to meet people who have some degree of success that somehow meeting them will be hooved me down the right, what I did end up spending a lot of time doing during the Q and a that I didn't care about was writing down the names of all 146 attendees. So I could look them up on social media so I could follow them from our undeniable writers account so that they would follow us back.
2 (31m 17s):
And that kind of worked cause like five people did follow us back. And I, in other words, I guess, I guess I'm thinking about it like, oh, I'm going to become a better writer. I have this idealistic thought about why, you know, w when I sign up for something like this, but the reality is I just want somebody to pay me to write something. And I have these ways of that I think are going to be successful in terms of getting me there, meeting this person, connecting with this person on social media. And maybe that's fine. Maybe that's fine. Maybe that's worth $150, you know, for me to feel like I did something for my writing and for those people, I guess, I guess that I don't have a very well formulated sharp question in it, but it's like, do you know what I mean?
2 (32m 10s):
When I say, you're, you're gearing yourself up to do this thing that you're telling yourself is going to be for a reason. That's not actually the reason that you're ultimately going there for us.
1 (32m 21s):
Absolutely. And I think I will say that from taking things and from being a facilitator of things, a lot of right, and this is, we talk about on the podcast. Art is so hard when you talk, when you into trying to make money from it, because everyone's looking for different things, obviously, but also like these workshops and seminars and classes, they just vary. So wildly in terms of what the fuck they are. Zoom is weird. What, what are we doing? I literally heard about, so like my MFA program I left is now, you know, they met in person and now they had to just do a session on zoom again, because of the virus.
1 (33m 12s):
And I heard that like, half of it was just filler time, like filler because they did it. So filler, I think that's, what's happening is there's a lot of filler going on. So it's not so much that the cost is exorbitant of 150 or 175. It's sort of like, right. What is the content of the thing?
2 (33m 31s):
Yeah. Well, I mean, for, for, for what it was, it was exorbitant, right. Because, because of course those two people need to make their money to put food on their table, I guess. Okay. Here's what I guess I'm, I'm narrowing down on it. Yeah. There's just what you said. A lot of, most people probably go into our touristic pursuits for a more pure reason than to make money from it. But of course you're met with this. Okay. Well, if I want to do this all the time, then I have to make money from it. And it leads to a lot of pretending about what we're really doing here.
2 (34m 12s):
Like these two people needed to have 150 people give them $150
1 (34m 18s):
A lot of money by the way. Right.
2 (34m 21s):
Or is it because that's, you know, yeah, probably a drop in the bucket compared to what they've paid for their own education, you know? So I, and I guess I wouldn't want the, I guess I wouldn't want to suspend to not suspend my disbelief because we all sort of need to tell ourselves a story about why we're doing something. And sometimes if the answer is it's just for money or for, it's just, that's unacceptable to you for your own value. So you have to tell yourself a lie about what it is that you're really going into it for, but you're right.
2 (35m 3s):
It's filler. A lot of it is filler. And you just have to know that going in again, don't put everything on a pedestal.
1 (35m 10s):
I mean, it's really interesting. It's like, right. I, I, I think it's how I navigate systems. It comes down to, so like, what is the system of, even in a little level, like what is the system of this workshop? Right. And then like once we get in there and we see like, oh, this is the system they're just going to talk. And I think he did the exact right thing for you, which was how can I make this work for me? Yeah. So I have a, just a quick success story that I love. So this organization that I was a part of that I won't name that I thought was going to be the savior, this right. Helping writers. Right. Okay. Fine. Did not work out for me.
1 (35m 51s):
But then I thought, okay, well, is there any part of the system I can use? So I got a great rate rate, two page pitch out of this, this, this organization. And then I said, okay, well wait, what else can I do? So they offer these, you, you can, it's a pitching calendar and you can sign up to send your pitch or do a verbal pitch to the manager of your choice for a set for a $30, which is nothing to me. I mean, like compared to what I spent $30 on tank tops, you know what I mean? That I don't like, okay, fine. So I targeted a manager, one that was from a comp one that was from a company I adore.
1 (36m 33s):
And from what I know about them, I mean, what do I really know? But really they seem really cool. And he seems really cool. And the work he likes is really cool. He's a manager. I said, okay, well, what the fuck? I'll just send them my pitch. I'll sign up and send them. So I did that and I did not hear, and I did not hear, and I did not hear. And I said, oh, they fucked me again. Like, they didn't even give him my shit. You had to like, fill out this, but that. And so I said, you know what, Jen stick up for yourself. So I wrote them and said, Hey, I never heard back. I did this thing. I never heard back from my, the manager I pitched. And they said, oh no, no, it's coming. They have until this day to do it, which wasn't clear in the thing, but, okay. So I said, okay, we'll see, we'll see if it comes my way.
1 (37m 13s):
Like I was expecting nothing. So then on Friday I get an email. He fucking loved the pitch, loved it. He loved everything, everything got excellent. And he was like, please send me the script ASAP. So he now has hold my calls and we'll see. I mean, it can, it, it, it exciting. So that all is to say, and I know we have to wrap up, but like to say, like, I have to figure out how to navigate certain systems to my benefit. And that's just what my clients had to do. Navigate the system, that when I was a therapist, that's just what two students have to do in school systems. We figure out how to navigate these systems. And these systems are really fucked up because people are fucked up and they run the system.
1 (37m 56s):
So anyway, everyone finds their way. I think, to navigate the medical system, the legal system, the entertainment system, like you find the system, figure out, figure out your system. Yeah. O Y S voice voice
4 (38m 29s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Austin there. Austin is a writer, director, performer, and managing partner of the reduced Shakespeare company. And he's funny and gregarious. And he's got a great way with the story. So please enjoy our conversation with Austin pitcher.
1 (38m 58s):
Oh, that's beautiful plates. Wow. You have quite the boys. You do voiceovers. Did I say
5 (39m 4s):
I did until my voice, my agency's voiceover department closed. And I've just got too many things going on. Well, this is part of my problem. We'll talk about my
2 (39m 15s):
Problems, survivor all your problems.
1 (39m 18s):
We did order an order from like maybe three, four years old.
5 (39m 23s):
Yeah. Yeah. The bed wedding. We can go wherever you need to go.
2 (39m 28s):
Okay. Well, let's start with this Austin titular. Congratulations. You survived theater school.
5 (39m 34s):
Yay me.
2 (39m 36s):
Yay. Yay. All of us. Where did you go
5 (39m 40s):
For undergraduate? I went to university of California, Berkeley, where I was a drama and history. Double major, real like
1 (39m 48s):
A real dummy is what you're saying.
5 (39m 50s):
I'm a real well, it was a lot easier to get into Cal however many years ago. That was, I'm going to say 40, but, but yeah, I couldn't possibly get it in there now. And then I took a year off and then I got my MFA in directing from Boston university.
2 (40m 8s):
Oh, okay. And directing. All right, cool. But for Berkeley you were studying,
5 (40m 14s):
I guess I was, well, the Berkeley theater department. I mean, the good news was, I mean, well, the bad news was they didn't, they didn't give you much direction in terms of what you should be studying, but the great news was they didn't give you much direction in terms of what you should be studying. So you were, we were constantly putting up our own shows and making our own art. And in fact, when I had, when I was there, I got a job stage managing the Oakland symphony. And that took me, that took me away from any faculty led productions that re rehearsing the evening. Cause I was always working in the evening. Oh. And making money.
5 (40m 55s):
I always had to explain to my faculty about that. So I was in a lot of student productions that rehearsed, you know, after midnight or first thing in the morning, wherever, wherever we did it was, it was, it was great. I mean, and I, I know a ton of so many talented people came out of that program and, and you're right. Actually talented regardless of how talented they were. They were no dummies, you know, it was filled with kind of pretty, pretty bright folks. And that was exciting.
2 (41m 26s):
So then what's the, what's the gap between the Berkeley and getting
1 (41m 33s):
Your MFA and D were you directing before? How did you, how did you pick directly?
5 (41m 38s):
I'd been doing shows honestly, how far back did you say we wanted to go? I've been doing puppet shows since kindergarten. I was, Yeah. Well, I got to put it to good use. I've never stopped doing puppet shows really, but, but I started doing plays in elementary school and I would all always get the parts, not the greatest parts, but the parts with the most lines, because really super wanted to play Peter in the lion, the witch and the wardrobe in third grade. But they cast me as the professor because he had all the speeches in their region and I get memorize it like, so playing an old man, even that
1 (42m 15s):
I was always the narrator always. I thought the narrator doesn't have a fucking personality. What the fuck?
5 (42m 23s):
Well, exactly. So you got to put, you got to bring your own, I mean the good news, bad news again, good news, bad news. But I, but then I, when I started doing community theater in my teens and, and doing shows in high school and then shows in college and there were more instances of me looking at my director and I could do a better job than this, you know, I would see, I would see shows that would inspire me a great direction, great artistry that would inspire me. But these crappy mediocre directors motivated like I can be, I can, I can be at least as mediocre as this guy. And I bet I can be better.
5 (43m 4s):
So that's what, that's what I got the double major in history in drama, because it was the early eighties and the rise of the Reagan youth and everybody was going to law school and I thought, you know what, I'll go, I'll do this. And this will be fun. And I'll go to law school. And literally in my, in that year off after graduation, my dad had been to Hastings law school for a year. And he had to drop out to take care of his mother who was dying of cancer and in the fifties. And he said, yeah, don't go to law school. You will hate law school. So I, I had that father who encouraged me to not Blau to God and to follow my dream instead.
5 (43m 45s):
So I applied to graduate.
1 (43m 47s):
And you think, what do you think that he just knew you so well? Or like, why do you think he thought you'd hate it?
5 (43m 54s):
I beak, I think he knew me pretty well actually. I mean, he think he knew I was idiosyncratic. I like storytelling. I didn't like close reading. I actually could. I bet. I bet I've only figured this out recently. I bet I would've loved to being a lawyer, but I would have hated going to law school.
1 (44m 19s):
And a lot of people say, yeah,
5 (44m 21s):
Yeah. And I, and I had two college roommates who had subsequently gone on to become lawyers and every time I would see them then, and then over the decades, now they would say, oh God, you dodged a bullet.
1 (44m 35s):
Yeah. Yeah. My husband went to law school and was a lawyer. And he liked, well, I don't know about liked, but he law school was okay. And he hated being in the courtroom and being a lawyer and he doesn't do it anymore, but yeah, it's a very bizarre profession. So I'm glad you didn't end up there
5 (44m 51s):
V2. That's the weird thing was I applied to different schools. I thought I was going to go get my MFA in acting actually. And I applied to like five or six students, different schools. I got into all of them, except for Yale, you know, was fuck those guys.
1 (45m 9s):
Yeah. I'm not even sure Yale's a real thing. You know what I mean?
5 (45m 14s):
It's just like Narnia. I, but I, and I got into, but it really came down to NYU's MFA program at Tisch and where they gave me all the money and it's like, wow, I'm going to make money go into this school. But I, I visited some of the classes. I didn't much care for some of the classes that I saw and, and, and, and Boston university was offering less money, but that, and, and, and BU was a directing program. And I realized kind of in a light bulb moment that I would have more opportunities to act as a director than I would have to direct as an, as just an actor.
5 (45m 55s):
And I think that was one of the few only smart decisions I ever made about my career. What
1 (46m 1s):
Didn't you like about the classes you saw? Tish?
5 (46m 5s):
I, they, one thing was that they take a bunch of people in their first year and then winnow it down over the years of the program. And I thought that was kind of bullshit. And, and then I saw the huge numbers of people that they took. And I went, I CA I just kinda went, I think I'm better than that. I'm not interested in this and I want to be challenged. Not that I'm a great actor and I'm, cause I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm certainly not a transformative actor. I mean, this is what I got. I'm not going to be, I knew that about myself. And so directing, I just thought would give me more of a challenge and ultimately more of a control of my career.
5 (46m 50s):
I think that was the illusion, the illusion we strive for in the arts and maybe in other fields is that illusion of control. And I felt like I wanted to be, not just an actor. I wanted to tell stories. And sometimes those stories I could tell from somebody else's script and direct them. And sometimes I had already by then started writing some plays, wrote a musical in college. And I thought, you know, maybe that's a thing too, again, again, because I knew my limitations. It's a tactic. I just went, there's more stories. I think I want to tell,
1 (47m 20s):
You know, it's so interesting. It's like, if I, if I, if NYU offered me like $10, I'd go, I would've gotten, like, I think it's, there's something I love about people who are like in the face of just being offered some shit. They still say no, because it's not the right thing for them. Like, I just love that. I just wish if I, you know, I would love that for everybody I love is to go into a situation, whether it's as an actor or director, whatever, as an adult or child, a youngster and say, you know, you're offering me this job, this money, this thing. But I know in my heart like this, isn't right. I'm going to take another route.
1 (48m 2s):
Oh my God, that's brilliant. Like, that's the freedom.
2 (48m 5s):
Oh, it's the diff it's always the difference between people who were brought up to think they deserved something and people who were, you know, brought up to believe in, take whatever you get. Cause nothing, you know, nothing is really coming down.
1 (48m 19s):
And I think that they, everyone comes by their shit, honestly. So it's not even like, yeah. And, but like, yeah, I was brought up to like, if someone's offering you anything and I think, look, you do what you have to do, but I can honestly say that did not serve me. That did not serve me. That attitude of like, take what you can get and just go, I didn't even apply because I didn't even apply any aware out like anyway, so, okay. Continue.
2 (48m 42s):
We often say you auditioned for all for five acting programs. Okay. Do you remember?
5 (48m 50s):
I CA I can't recite it to you, but I can't, but I do. It was, it was, it was a house speech from Henry Ford telling his dad, you know, I would not have it. So I will prove to you that I'm your son. And, and, and actually just recently I realized, oh, you know what? I shouldn't learn the other half of that scene now. So I've started working Henry. Fourth's a thing, speech that yells at his son too. That's been, that's been a fun process. I had to do that. And then I had to, for the directing programs, I had to two different programs, require different things, but I had to direct plays on purpose and on paper, not on purpose, mostly on paper.
5 (49m 30s):
So I would have to turn in here's, here's how I would direct Tom Scott or here's like one Carnegie Mellon. I think I had to, I had to direct a scene from Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead. I chose it in front of whoever was interviewing me, you know, so I had to bring in actors, it was a hit.
2 (49m 52s):
That's great. But that is a hard thing to audition for. I mean, directing has got to be a really hard thing to audition for it. Did you like the program at BU
5 (50m 1s):
With reservations? Yeah, I did. I mean, with the same reservations I have with all charter schools, which is there, they're never exactly what you want. And, and, and the thing I did, the thing I liked about the BU program is that I think this is the best part about theater school is the people you meet. And I met great people. I, and I worked with some great people too. And in all, and again, like all theater schools, but everywhere you work, you learn some things that you love and you learn some things that you're never ever, ever going to do. So I met some wonderful people, people with whom I'm still in touch and several whom I've worked with over the years.
5 (50m 41s):
The thing I didn't like about the B U program was that their actors, their undergraduate actors were BFAs. And, and I think I'm, I I'm already on record as saying that I would, I think a BFA as a silly degree. I just, it's not, it's not a silly degree for everybody. People who know what they want to do. They know they want to be actors. That's all they're ever going to want to do. Boom, go get your BFF. Great. But the, I, I wasn't aware of the undergraduates. That would be you ever having to like read a paper, write a paper, read a book, talk about the news. Talk about current events.
5 (51m 22s):
I hate talking about current events, particularly currently in the last four or five years, because I can be a sparkling dinner companion, or we can talk politics. There's there's not a, there's not a subtle gradation there between those two extremes,
1 (51m 38s):
But I think you're right. Look, look, look, let's pause and say, BFAs are so Uber specific at a time where no fucking buddy at 1980, I was 17. When I started my BFA. What in the fuck? I mean, it's too specific. I needed more vagueness. I needed more. Like I literally need, I remember sitting in history and being in it. We had to take like one history class and being like, I don't know what she's talking about. And I have no desire because my, my acting teachers are telling me like, basically yoga is most important in life. So, so I, and it's not their fault.
1 (52m 18s):
Like that was their job, but like I needed more general education. I really did. I really did
5 (52m 26s):
Well. And my, my wife had her, has her BFA from Boston conservatory of music and her emphasis on musical theater. So, and she wanted to direct and she wanted to improvise. And that's what she has gone on to do art. We've had, we have told both of our children do not, do not do not go into show business, do not, do not. We have a 50% success rate. Our son has to decide is, is not, unless he backdoors it. I could see him somewhere down the line, ready to go screenplay a little.
1 (52m 58s):
Yeah. And it'll probably get made like the next, you know, fucking store.
5 (53m 4s):
And our daughter is, she's a senior now in a theater program. And the one thing, and That's the one thing, the one thing we would not support as a BFA. And it like in our first orientation meeting, when they told her what she would be allowed to do as a BA and what she would not be allowed to do as a, she looked at me and went, yeah. Okay. You were right. You were right. And I think it's great because, you know, we told her all our life, this is a horrible, horrible, horrible business. And she has quite rightly said, fuck you, I'm going to do what I want to do. And you and mom succeeded in this business of how tough could it be. Right.
2 (53m 42s):
Right. Oh yeah. Oh, to say, got you there.
5 (53m 47s):
I have raised her to Sasser elders.
2 (53m 50s):
Then you were always interested in Shakespeare though, because when you were auditioning for your programs, did that, I did not do that. You went full unit full Shakespeare.
5 (54m 0s):
I w I wish I could remember whether that was required or not. I think it might have been because that, you know, we were all a part of the, the league of the league of whatever training programs, professional training programs or whatever. So, you know, you were going to work in the classics and I will very good. It was interesting. I was always, I was good with text, but I wasn't good at connecting emotions to the text until much, much later. So it, it was, but I have been a fond of Shakespeare. I, I grew up in the bay area. I was born in San Francisco, grew up there and was lucky as a kid. Cause we got taken to field trips at American conservatory theater in San Francisco.
5 (54m 42s):
And so I saw great productions of Julius Caesar and Othello and Mackers and, and, and an amazing production that I think you can see in its entirety. Now on YouTube of taming of the Shrew Commedia, dell'arte based inspired taming of the Shrew with Freddie Olster and mark Beastmaster, Sanger as Petruchio w wearing tights and no shirt most of the time. And Lord, my ovaries started to melt when I watched him. Golly. And then the first, then the first, my first exercise at BU in the directing program was to take a play.
5 (55m 29s):
And again, I think I could pick my own play. I, or maybe, I don't know. I ended up picking much ado about nothing, do a five minute cutting of this play,
2 (55m 39s):
Play
5 (55m 41s):
Five minutes of the whole play. What do you need? What is essential in this play? Do you need to tell the story of this play in five minutes and you know, you're you get, you, you, they throw actors at you and you can do whatever you want. And so it was a great exercise, not just for Shakespeare, but for storytelling generally.
2 (55m 58s):
And so in that scenario, do you ha do you lean on picking bits for exposition or picking bits for whatever the emotional arc is of the story? Yeah.
5 (56m 11s):
Yes. All of that. It really, I guess it would depend on the exercise. I mean, taming, the Shrew is a comedy, so I'm going to make it a con I mean, much ado about nothing is a, is a comedy. So I'm going to make it a comedy, but it was also experiments in tone. And you know, what, how serious do you want your comedy to be? How wacky, how, whatever. I mean, that's always that it's, it's really, it's a really, that's my form of cooking is mixing in the spices of comedy or the, the, the, the base, the broth of pain and tragedy that grounds the comedy.
5 (56m 52s):
Yeah, it's it's it was in grad school that I finally started to get around the idea that I had to have all the answers. When I stepped into the rehearsal room, it was li re real life. And plus being an actor, I wanted to work with actors and get actors ideas. So I don't want to come in and go, oh, I figured it all out. All you need to do is this, this, and this it's way more interesting to just work with the actors and let them bring their ideas to, I don't know everything and I don't need to know everything.
2 (57m 21s):
Yeah, no, absolutely. There's just a different, and a lot of films are made where the director has already figured everything out, every shot before they go in. And you know, I mean, it's a gamble because if you're really, really good, that can turn out fine. But if you're not, then it can appear very distracted. Okay. So tell us how reduced Shakespeare for people to know reduced Shakespeare is taking all of the plays of Shakespeare and condensing them, not unlike this five minutes, much ado you did for taming with whoever was and presenting it to schools. Right? And to all kinds of,
5 (57m 58s):
Okay. It itch. It started, I was not one of the founding members of it that was founded by it. Actually, we just celebrated our 40th anniversary, lasts that August. Thank you August. Oh, I've only been with the company 30 years this year, but I'll that they it's, the company started as a pass the hat act at Renaissance fairs in Northern California performed by a bunch of friends who thought it would be fun. Daniel singer was the man who, who, who thought, wouldn't it be a great idea to call ourselves the reduced Shakespeare company. We'd be the other RSC. And You know, we'd just do short versions of the plays with few people.
5 (58m 44s):
And those five people eventually became three people as people fell away. And, and then they realized, oh, three is a magic number because we know that song. And they started doing a three-person Romeo and Juliet from, they did that for a couple of summers than they did then Jess Winfield dropped away and they did a two person Hamlet. Or if I got that backwards, I do have to have that exactly backwards. They did a three, they did a three version Hamlet for, for a handful of years. Then they did a two-person Romeo and Juliet because Jess had walked away for a bit. And then, and then somebody said, well, you've done two of Shakespeare's plays. You should do all of his plays. There's only 30 set. There are 35 left. How tough could that be? And they wrote the song well, wrote the show, the show behind me, the complete, the complete works of William Shakespeare bridged and premiered it at the Edinburgh fringe festival in August of 1987, thinking that would be the Swan song of the company.
5 (59m 38s):
It turned out to be just the beginning because interest from other companies and other theater festivals started coming in and it became sort of a full-time job by 1989, which is when Daniel left to become an Imagineer at Walt Disney and helped design theme parks and, and read Martin replaced him. Now read the bald guy in the company. And I were in the drama department together at university of California at Berkeley. And along with Jess Winfield, he had been in that department as well. So when Jess, when Daniel left, Jess thought of Reed, when Jess left that both thought of me. And, and, and, and so now for the last 30 ish years, Reed and I have been running the company as the original guys have fallen away and we've expanded our repertoire of plays.
5 (1h 0m 28s):
So it's not just the complete works of William Shakespeare. It's now reducing other huge, boring topics at short. So they complete the complete funny, you should ask the complete history of America, abridged the Bible, the complete word of God abridged. Now I'm looking at the show, all the great books of brands, every book, every book you should have read in high school, but probably didn't completely Hollywood abridged, all the great movies, all the, all the world complete world of sports abridged and of the ultimate Christmas show. And then our last brief, our final two shows our most recent two shows have taken us back to our, our, our Shakespearian roots.
5 (1h 1m 9s):
Cause we have written William Shakespeare's long, lost first play abridged and, and our new show, which we will is two years old now, but we've only had seven performances because of the pandemic that shut everything down is Hamlet's big adventure. A pre-K
1 (1h 1m 23s):
Fantastic. So I just want to say, like, there is, it's interesting. We talk a lot to people obviously to artists and there's something like magic. So getting to sort of discovered at the fringe festival and Edinburgh is like the dream, right? So like I just show at the fringe in New York, my show was not discovered. Let's just say like, that was it for the show basically. And like something special happens like that is the dream, right. That they have this sort of love for language and love for Shakespeare and wanted to make clearly fun and funny and accessible to people. And I'm just so it's like, the timing must have been so right for that specific thing at that specific time in Edinburgh for then it became, I mean the dream, they became a full time job for them.
1 (1h 2m 13s):
Like that is like the dream. So do you think it's just like, it's just you, do you both think it's like the magic, like timing mixed with like that, cause the most shows that go to fringe festivals, that's it like that? Is it like the Swan song if that's even, so what, what made it so desirable to other companies, do you think?
5 (1h 2m 33s):
I think it was the, the, on the ensemble. How well, how well the three guys played with each other. They'd been doing it in at Ren fairs and playing it in front of audiences of all different types and all different in all different kinds of situations, outdoors, indoors. So they were extremely tight and there had been commercial productions of the complete works without members of the reduced Shakespeare company. And they've all kind of failed because bringing in three, three actors, no matter how good they are, you don't have that same sense of ensemble and same sense of timing that, that, that we do who have been doing it for years. I mean, we always thought of ourselves as as much a comedy team as a theater company.
5 (1h 3m 18s):
So when we're hiring new actors, we're looking for the three comic spokes of the wheel or legs of the stool, right. To hold everything up again, part of the problem is sometimes you get three identical guys. You can't tell them apart, they have completely identical energies and comedy wants that construction. So, so if I'm, and these are based on Commedia archetypes, but more recently we talk about, you know, the, the Marx brothers or the three Stooges or, you know, as other different archetypes, like, like when, like when I'm directing replacements for Reed, Reed is our, our Mo figure from the Stooges.
5 (1h 3m 59s):
You know, the one who like, come on, you guys knock it off. Right? Remember my brother, you know, he's that guy. And I almost invariably have to tell the actors. And it's hard when they're working with me because I'm their boss. You know, I say, you gotta bring, bring it more. You gotta bring the heat. You got to access your inner Mo a little bit because this, the comedy depends on you driving the rhythm and the rest. Other people can be funny in different ways. And that's another thing we people need to understand is how to be funny in different ways and also how to serve the text. It sounds like anarchy, but it's not. We actually have a task to reduce a huge topic to two hours that task we take incredibly seriously.
5 (1h 4m 42s):
So cause if it's just guys, you know, wanking off for two hours late, plenty of Shakespeare joke, then there's nothing compelling from a narrative standpoint. And as silly as these shows are they do have a narrative urgency or should
2 (1h 4m 57s):
What, what, what does the notion of something being a bridge afford you, that doing the complete, just doing one play.
5 (1h 5m 9s):
I mean the, probably the best thing is it F it affords us to get to the point, you know, to get to the thing that really interested in boss, you were asking about, you know, why was the timing so good? I think one of the time in things in 1987, late eighties was the rise of MTV, the bite size MTV generation, no attention span, young people, stupid young people in England. I think we capitalized on the fact that we did Shakespeare the way the Brits think Americans would do Shakespeare, which is BA you know, badly irreverently. And yet there are those moments.
5 (1h 5m 50s):
There are those moments where in all of our shows where we stop and actually get very serious for a second. And, and the response typically is, oh, these guys could do this for real, if they want it, you know, and that's a nice thing. It's like seeing spinal tap, these guys are excellent musicians. They also happen to be really funny if they, it would, the joke wouldn't work as well, if they were not as good music.
1 (1h 6m 14s):
So there's something about, you know, what, I'm, what I'm, what I'm really taking from. This is like, there's something about the level of commitment that is essential to making art work. Like, even if you're committed to the wonkiness the weirdness, and we, we talk a lot about, we've been talking a lot about world building or like community building. Do you, everyone has to buy in that this is a complete world. They can trust, even if it's absurd, even if it's about the Elizabethan times, even, you know, we got to buy in. So the commitment can't just be, this is a gimmick, right? So it has to be, I like what you said about like that, that they could do the seriously if they wanted.
1 (1h 6m 55s):
Like, I think that is the thing about comedy is that, you know, or like something like the office works, because you can tell that the commitment and the talent is there, even though they're talking about fucking insane, crazy, stupid shit. So it's amazing.
5 (1h 7m 11s):
And if you're not committed, why should the audience, why should the audience invest if you're not invested, but to your point, Gina, about what does this afford us? I think it affords us to kind of get to the point, get to somehow essential truths under the guise of we're just throwing it all into a blender and having fun with it. You know, it's, it's, whenever people say you can't make a joke about a thing, particularly a sensitive thing or a horrible thing, that's the worst part. If like somebody dying or something, or, or somebody has done some nefarious, horrible crime and you can't make a joke about it.
5 (1h 7m 52s):
I said, well, it's, it's, it's rarely the joke. That's the problem. It's the thing that we're making the joke about. That is the problem. And I think that's valuable in the, in, in the, in the case of like our more recent shows, like the ultimate Christmas show, we just said, it's the only Christmas show you'll ever need to see, because it's got every, every winter holiday crammed into 90 minutes, but like William Shakespeare's long lost play a bridged. We conceived as sort of first draft Shakespeare. It's his very first play. He was still a genius, but had zero craft. And, and so he put every single storyline and every single character and every single famous speech into one, 100 hour long unpronounceable thing that he was not old enough or experienced enough to know, just to know that that's an unpredictable.
5 (1h 8m 38s):
So in our script, we reduce it down to a manageable two hours. And it's been in the few student productions I've seen of it. It's been kind of wonderful because you get to have students going at going after really great material without having to do the whole play around it.
2 (1h 8m 59s):
Yeah. And I'm imagining that the, what the audience likes about this is the accessibility and feeling like, oh, okay. I wouldn't have normally gone to see a Shakespeare play because I would be afraid that I wouldn't understand it, but these people have already told me before I've ever gone to see it, that they're going to make this extremely, they're going to give me the cliff notes, which is all I would've read in high school anyway. Right. And, and what I bet when people leave that show, they're saying, oh, I get it. I understand Shakespeare. Like I understand the language or I understand. And I understand why it's still relevant.
5 (1h 9m 40s):
Well, and that's the thing we D we discover all the time, which is that people come well for one, I've talked to enough young people now, like in their twenties, like my kid's age, who said, oh my God, you were the first Shakespeare production I ever saw when they played our, your video in English class or whatever. And I will say, as a reward or punishment usually is reward. Oh, shoot. What was I going to say?
2 (1h 10m 6s):
Like she said, you like, oh
5 (1h 10m 9s):
Yeah, that's right. And, and the other point about that is that people come to the like, grownups will come and see our show going, no, I hate Shakespeare. Why am I being dragged here by my PR partner? And then they come out of it going, wait, I knew more Shakespeare than I thought I did because Shakespeare is everywhere. Shakespeare. Every time I turn, every time some Shakespeare gets mentioned in any of the TV or films, I watch, I yell, drink. And thankfully I don't drink because I'd be hammered by the time because he's there all the time. So we make the audience feel smarter. And I think that's.
2 (1h 10m 42s):
Yeah. Okay. But what about with the Bible? So my first thought, when he said, you did this read the Bible, I was like, okay, this is sort of a book of Mormon ish. You know, like a send-up of religion, but is it a send-up what's what was the, why did you pay for the Bible to convince?
5 (1h 10m 60s):
Because we had done one of the reasons they thought of me to join the company in 92 was because they, they, they were getting to be know that sh the complete works was like five years old, getting to be five years old at that point and venues where they had performance said, this is great. You guys, what else you got? There was danger of them being a one trick pony. And it was a really good trick, but, you know, people wanted other things. And so we thought that the conversation was sort of a, what we had been, we'd been, we were very famous in England, more famous in England than we were here and in the states, and, and the thinking was, what can we, what can we write about what can we reduce that, that Americans take as seriously as the Brits take Shakespeare?
5 (1h 11m 45s):
And we thought, Ooh, ourselves. So we wrote the complete history of America abridged, and we were booked at the Kennedy center in 93, I think. Yeah, 93 and in rep with the complete works. And, and then, but, but the complete history of America then got extended to five weeks, then seven weeks. And we ended up playing the entire summer of 12 weeks at the Kennedy center with the complete history of America bridged. And that got us onto national public radio. That started getting us a lot more attention in this country and the Kennedy center that said, this was great. What else could we, we do.
5 (1h 12m 26s):
And we had been approached by Israeli television to do a half hour reduction film of the Bible for Israeli television. And it fell through as most of our television deals do, but we told the Kennedy center, he said, well, we have w we could do, we could reduce the Bible old Testament first act second act in Israel. It'll just be a one act w and the Kennedy center. That's how different times were, this was back in 94, 95, the Kennedy center said, oh yeah, that sounds great. You write it and come back and perform it here next summer. Boom. That was it. How'd it go? How'd it go really well. It cause again, different times it was in the nineties, the reviews, the reviews were great.
5 (1h 13m 11s):
The audiences were great. It was nominated for a Helen Hayes award for best new play. If the response was really good and, and we had three different writers. So we, I mean, at Reed and Adam Long, one of the founding members of the RSC was still with us at that time. And, and, and me and Reed was very not devout, but he was a church goer. His parents were born again. Adam was raised, raised a Catholic Meritage Jew and was a practicing Buddhist. So he was Buju Cadillac or something like that. He had, he has a phrase for it. And, and I was basically agnostic leading to atheism atheism, but mostly agnostic.
5 (1h 13m 55s):
I don't believe I don't care, but they're great stories. So for us, it was, I mean, honestly, and this is the secret for all of the things that we reduce and make fun of is that it was a celebration of the subject matter. And again, it didn't seem so bold and dangerous and controversial back in the nineties, it was a celebration of the greatest book ever. Right. And at that with some of our marketing site was, was the, was saying, the good book just got,
1 (1h 14m 24s):
Oh my God, that's fantastic. Wait, I go to Ms. Happy. Cause I'm like, as writer, as a writer, I'm like super curious, even the F the freaking process of how do you start? Like you have the Bible. Okay. There it is. What do you do? How did you, how do you do, that's like the weirdest writer's room ever. How do you break down the Bible?
5 (1h 14m 46s):
Well, I mean, the Bible, at least like Shakespeare's plays has a structure. You know, they have books, every, you know, there are books that you can follow and reduce. And, and basically we started at the very beginning and work our way through. And, you know, w we learned writing the America show, the America show was harder because, well, it was harder in one sense, because how do you pick what to do? But it was easier in a certain sense, because you could just go chronologically, right? So that, that worked, that worked fine. But we learned sitting around that table that we can't right. Sitting around a table, not, we can't, anyway, we would argue about nonsense about participles.
5 (1h 15m 26s):
So rather than sit there, you know, we'd say, oh, I have an idea about Lewis and Clark. Let me go in and do that. I have an idea about doing the cold war as a film, more let's let me try that. I've got to think about a thing. So then we go away and write, and then we come back together and we read what we have, and now we have something concrete to look at to, to edit. And sometimes we go, yeah, that doesn't work. And sometimes we go, oh, I there's a germ of an idea. There, can I, can I take it next and see what I can,
1 (1h 15m 54s):
You really have to trust each other implicitly, like it. And also there's a certain level of, cause there's two things going on. There's this subject matter is huge. And also, so you have to trust each other. You have to believe in each other and you have to know each other. And also, yeah, there has to be a spirit of still of playfulness based on, right? Like, did you guys, it sounds like a lot, like a lot of improv training. Did you all have improv training?
5 (1h 16m 23s):
We all had some improv training, but none of us were truly improvisers, but we were all theater people. We had all worked in ensembles. We had all, some of us read had written a play, a very funny play in college. I wrote a musical in college. Adam helped write the complete works. So none of us were complete neophytes in terms of, of being writers. And, and I mean, the other thing we learned over time, and now it's not, we don't even worry about it anymore is that there's no point in arguing. What's funny, you put it up on its feet and in front of people. And if they laugh, it's funny. And if they don't, it isn't. And so it's, it's fairly binary.
5 (1h 17m 4s):
So that's that, that, that stopped us from having to have a lot of stupid around the table. We'll just try it, just try it. And so back then we had that ability in terms of, in terms of the Bible, we did, I will say, I said it wasn't controversial, but, but, but we were conscious of the fact that, you know, there are probably some people who are probably going to be, think we're not, we're not being this isn't cool. So we bent over backwards to not put anything horribly offensive in there. The judge, the sex jokes, wouldn't be too dirty. You know, although we do have a scene, but this is political. This is medical. This it's the same between Abraham and God, where God is telling him to circumcise his son in God's honor.
5 (1h 17m 51s):
And so that's a very funny conversation talking about penises and for skins and useless bits of flesh, but in re re in reality, the Bible show is our jet. You genuinely most G-rated show
2 (1h 18m 7s):
So good that worked out. I mean,
5 (1h 18m 10s):
Yeah, no, of course. Now, of course it's self-censoring and we got, we got a letter once from after hurricane Katrina. Maybe I think somebody wrote us a letter. I'll take the time to write a, an actual letter. This was still on the time of email Rhoda, an actual letter saying, Hey, I just saw that there were a lot of productions of the complete word of God, a bridge, a blasphemous play in the path of hurricane Katrina. How dare you. You brought this down upon Ababa. And I wanted to write back and point out all the churches that were in the path of her Trina. And I was advised that a sleeping dogs lie discretion to the better part of valor to use two different.
2 (1h 18m 51s):
I love it. I love it. So I'm going to ask you a question that you don't have to answer, and if you don't want to answer it, we'll just, we'll
5 (1h 19m 0s):
Just cut it out. I'm tired of talking about my sexuality
2 (1h 19m 4s):
In looking at the reduced Shakespeare company website, looking at affiliated artists. I don't know if it's a complete list or not. It's, I'm going to say it's like 95% white men. So what's it been like for you guys over the last couple of years as theater is having, having a huge reckoning with race?
5 (1h 19m 29s):
It's been great because we have been trying to change it up for years and I, and the reason we have it, it's nobody's fault, but our own, you know, it's just, you know, laziness. And also we don't read and I don't pay ourselves when we're not actually writing or directing. So we, we have other jobs, we have other jobs, but it's been great because 20 years, well, 23 years ago, now we did the complete millennium musical abridged. And it was, it was me and it was me and Reed. And a third, the third actor was a woman, specifically my wife, the one with the BFA in musical theater and experience at second city as an improviser and a comedian, why wouldn't you?
5 (1h 20m 17s):
And it was great. And it was so well received and the songs were funny, but it was about the millennium. So it died a quick death. Nobody was interested, but weirdly many theaters where we performed Kennedy center was one Pittsburgh public theater was another many people where we had performed. It had seen our previous shows said, this is great. D is great. My not that's my wife. She's great, but really you're, you're a three man. We were told this. Wow, well, no. Why, what why? So that sent us down a particular, it didn't send us down.
5 (1h 20m 59s):
It inhibited change earlier than it should have happened because we know a ton of funny women. We also know a ton of funny actors of color, but we haven't been good enough about reaching out to them and getting them we've had, we've been, we've had a lot of different genders in the cast and backstage, but that's not a thing that one sees on a website, lots of Latinos, lots of Jews, but they don't count. Right. In terms of visibility in terms of, I made, if we're going to have the conversation, let's be honest about, you know.
5 (1h 21m 40s):
Yeah. But I don't see a darker face on that. Okay. So it really is about colorism really. Okay. We have now hired three new actors and all of them, none of them, white men, they're all hysterical. And we were supposed to have our first performance with some of these new cast members this week, as we record, those have been postponed till the fall. We were supposed to have one of the, one of our other new actors play on February 11th and 12th. That's been postponed now. So now our next performances are not in April, but we hope to bring in all of our new, new, diverse, and crucially younger actors to come in.
5 (1h 22m 25s):
So, I mean, I think the reckoning has been great long overdue and terrific.
2 (1h 22m 32s):
Okay, good. I'm really glad to hear you say that. So what I mean without, I guess you don't have to give anything away, but like what's the direction that you're, that you see the company going on in the next, you know, couple of decades, more bridging of more, I mean, cause there's probably a limited number of huge canons of work that you can condense.
5 (1h 22m 57s):
So
2 (1h 22m 59s):
Yeah, sure.
5 (1h 23m 2s):
Well, you're adorable thinking we have direction. So thank you for it's. It's an interesting question. I mean, right now our goal is survive. The pandemic. We have the, one of the few reasons. Well, one of the biggest reasons we've been able to survive is that we have very little overhead. We're a theater company without our own building. We have one full-time employee and we had to furlough her down to half-time she's our office manager, props and wardrobe goddess, you know, but, but Reed handles a lot of the business work. His wife is our general manager. They met when she was running the theater, a theater in Ireland.
5 (1h 23m 45s):
And then while we were in London, she was running a theater there. And now she's when she's not teaching high school drama and English, she's running our theater. And so they handle the business with my putting in 2 cents every now and then I do the weekly podcast. I do the company's social media where I, I guess I drive some of the, some of the writing a little bit, but I mean, that's another thing we've been doing as part of this pandemic. And part of the, is part of the development of the company or the future longevity of the company is this in the last couple of months, Reed and I have been updating our scripts because they were all very, I mean, there was, I mean, jokes, all kinds of jokes go past their sell by date.
5 (1h 24m 36s):
And nothing proves you that you are old and out of touch and not funny, faster than complaining how the young people won't let you tell your jokes anymore. Right? Totally. You know what you want people aren't laughing at your jokes tell better jokes. So our scripts are almost all of them, except for Hamlet's big adventure. The latest one had been published, but they are now printed on demand. So it's not that hard to change the scripts. So we've been up the, the America show. We would update a lot anyway, cause every four years we would take it out as an election special election edition and, and, and put an improvised section in the second act where the two leading candidates for the for president would take questions from the audience in real time.
5 (1h 25m 24s):
And that was always fun. But some of the more recent shows I'm in the more popular shows, all the great books, completely Hollywood, if a complete history of comedy, a bridged ultimate Christmas and, and long lost, we've gone through w w we've done try to do two things, go, go through and either update the jokes that are now out of date, or get rid of the jokes that may have been funny five or 10 years ago. But aren't funny now. And arguably, maybe they weren't that funny that to some people, but the other thing is, all of our shows are very meta and we have always told the truth and the scripts about the, the white man demographic of the, of the people doing this comedy.
5 (1h 26m 8s):
I mean, we've always tried to use our identities as, as comic fodder. And so whenever we, whenever we get a new actor in the company, we change those jokes and change those references. So they fit better with the actors on stage. And what we're trying to do is go through the script and make them less dependent on a specific demographic like old white guys. Well, we weren't that old then, but, but going through and just getting rid of the, too many of the gender signifiers, because there really isn't any reason why it needs to be five, you know, it's so
1 (1h 26m 44s):
I got to say, it's so interesting to hear and, and lovely actually, to hear that, like, here's the deal like you got to update your shit. Like, I don't think people like to change. Right. And Gina and I we're both therapists. We get it. Like, nobody likes change. It fucking sucks. But if you want to not be obsolete, you have to change. And I think it's great that you, that you take the reckoning of sorts and make changes versus dig your heels in because then it doesn't work. And so I actually, it gives me hope that you're changing shit because a lot of people that we talk to are like, you know, yes, the reckoning is great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1 (1h 27m 25s):
I'm going to do my best, but we don't really know what we're doing instead of saying no, we're going to make the changes. Let's just make the changes. It's hard. It's
5 (1h 27m 34s):
Yeah. Well, and nobody, nobody wants to be on stage telling a joke that gets booze instead of laughs you know, at least of all us and the, I mean, this, this particular reckoning about the scripts started about four or five years ago when we both started teaching college more frequently and we'd get pushback from our students going, wait, wait, is this funny? I said, Ellie was all I could tell you is that it was, but it isn't now. And I get that, you know? And so that's been, you know, if you're going to be any kind of teacher at all, you got to listen to your students. And if you're just going to get pissed because your students have a different opinion that maybe you shouldn't be teaching,
2 (1h 28m 12s):
I love that. I just heard something that I'm going to try to incorporate, which is if you're over 40, you should strive to have an 30 and under mentor, not a mentee, but a younger person. Who's much younger than you as your mentor, as a way of keeping current with progress. I, I echo what Bob is saying. It gives me a lot of hope what you're saying, because not that a lot of people wouldn't answer that question necessarily, but it would make a lot of people uncomfortable and it would make a lot of people give like a very pat answer. And really what, how I'm interpreting, what you're saying is I'm not afraid to say that what we, what we really thought was the bees knees.
2 (1h 28m 59s):
Then we S we see hasn't has it worn very well. Hasn't aged very well. And, and your goal is still, your goal is not to protect your pride from 20 years ago. Your goal is to make your audiences continue to like the work that's what everybody's goal should be, but everybody gets caught up in their own ego about it. Okay.
5 (1h 29m 21s):
And, and the thing is, I mean, this is the biggest argument to go to college as far as I'm concerned, is that the more, you know, the more there is to laugh at, you know, life becomes full, full of richer comedy because of it. And the biggest reason to get more different types of people on stage is that there are more different types of jokes. You can then tell.
1 (1h 29m 43s):
I think comedy is it's really great that comedy allows us to do this because people who do just straight drama and gene and I were just talking about this, like straight drama is like, takes itself. So freaking seriously, that comedy is a really good meter for what is going on in the world. Right? And so if you can write comedy and you can say, okay, like that, wasn't funny. And the reason I know it, wasn't funny is actually I tested it out and nobody laughed. Like you're saying, it's binary. Like you have a thing is where drama is a little more subjective. Whether you're moved by something comedy, it's like, no, the fucking people didn't laugh. So it's not funny. Like, there you go.
5 (1h 30m 24s):
Some of our favorite reviews are the ones that said this was horribly unfunny. Despite the hundreds of people in the audience yes. Was not,
2 (1h 30m 34s):
Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, honestly, we're gonna have to wrap up soon, but was there, is there any anecdote or thing that you want to share from your theater school days or,
5 (1h 30m 47s):
Oh gosh. Which w which one should I choose
1 (1h 30m 53s):
Theater school, whether undergrad or grad where you were like, what is happening? Why am I doing this? Or, or I can't believe that just happened.
5 (1h 31m 6s):
Wow,
1 (1h 31m 7s):
God, I can think of one. And then you think of yours. I just had a flashback to, we had to Rick Murphy, our teacher had us doing an exercise where we were blindfolded and we had to do movement around the room with each other blindfolded. And, and there was always a jackass who decided to do some crazy ninja tumbling moves and bashed into me. And I just remember, I really was hurt in that exercise. And because someone's ego decided blindfold that I'm going to do a crazy karate kick and kick someone in the face now, why come on?
1 (1h 31m 47s):
Anyway, I just thought of that because I hurt myself the other day. And I was like, yeah. And I think it might've been taped actually. But anyway, so we'll share that. And that just came to mind too, to take some pressure
5 (1h 31m 59s):
Off. I know if that made me think that there you go. Well, it didn't make me think of anything specific except except one thing that I really loved about Boston university, again, again, there was not, there was some direction, but not a lot. It was internally directed. And I had directed some musicals in high school while, and in college. And I, I thought, I thought, I just don't want to do that. I wanted to challenge myself. And so when I was at BU I directed like all different kinds of plays, and that was just really rewarding that I got the opportunity to do this.
5 (1h 32m 44s):
Like I did a 1930s drawing English drawing room thing on an eight foot by eight foot square, where the audience was on two risers. Like the whole thing wasn't bigger than 30 feet square. I directed a Sam Shepard play full for love. I directed up big broad Neil, Simon comedy. I directed Joe. Orton's what the Butler saw a fan. You know, one of the greatest modern farces very problematic right now in terms of, in terms of how some of those jokes play. But I also, and then I directed bent, bent, and it was, again, this, this was in 80 19 84, you know, so kind of right in the teeth of, of what was happening with aids and everything.
5 (1h 33m 33s):
And there was one professor there at BU Rick winter, he was married to Bob chaplain. Bob chaplain was one of Kristen Linklaters either assistants or disciples, just one of the finest voice teachers ever. And one of the, just the most amazing teachers I ever had. And, and, and, and Rick was the one stop shopping for all the students that were worried about aids and what they could do and where they could get information and where they could get, you know, where they could be heard. And so I directed bent, and wasn't even aware of how important that play had become to so many of the students, because we were just rehearsing.
5 (1h 34m 16s):
And I was just trying to make it happen in with all the limitations that you have in a student program. And at the end of it, at the end of the final performance that you see, there were, people were so packed in the room and, and, and people were standing. People were weeping. People. Rick came up to me and just looked at me and I fucking burst into tears. I had no idea. I had this, this reservoir of Pence up feeling about the thing and I, and it, and it told me something, it told me something important about not only the actors on stage or the play being stage, but the audience that's hearing it, the audience that's receiving it and how they're taking it and how that we, and how we are working in tandem, working together in the theatrical space to create this event.
5 (1h 35m 12s):
And I, that's the story that comes to me when you ask us,
2 (1h 35m 17s):
Yeah, very, very meaningful and very much at the heart of why people, you know, do theater before we let you go. What is your podcast about,
5 (1h 35m 28s):
Ah, the reduced Shakespeare company podcast, the very imaginatively named reduced Shakespeare company podcasts, what it says on the tin. It, we started it in December of 2006. I've been doing it every week since then. I just dropped my 789th episode. So we've been doing it for 8, 789 weeks. It's it started off because we had been, we had been running in England for 10 years at the criterion theater and Piccadilly. And we had closed in 2005 and we thought, well, what, what can we do to do something, to give our fans in England and kind of around the world and Matt croak, who, you know, was, was the podcast whisperer, just say, you got to get on this.
5 (1h 36m 13s):
Guy's got to get on this. We've done so much radio. We've done that BBC world service radio show. We'd been on NPR, a bunch. We love audio comedy, but the thought of creating content every week was daunting writing. But I thought, well, wait a second, I can just turn on a microphone and just, we could just talk, we could riff for 15 or 20 minutes, and that would give people something, it'd be a little bit like the Beatles Christmas records that they would send in their fans at the end of every year would, they would just turn on a microphone for 15 or 20 minutes and they would do whatever they do, and then they turn it off and send it out. And that's kind of what I've been doing. And it was about three or four months in to the thing that I realized, well, wait a second. I could, I don't, it doesn't just does it.
5 (1h 36m 54s):
Doesn't have to be just the reduced Shakespeare company. I can talk to many people, anybody about what they do. And, and, and with my wife's the, the second city Chicago comedy mafia that, that, that I'm a member of by marriage has so many, you know, famous and successful people that I've, I've pimped a bunch of them to be my guests on podcasts. But, but as we've toured around the world, we have met so many interesting artists and actors and comedians and writers and directors and novelists and, and, and, and people. And it's just been, it's been a treat cause I'm definitely not getting paid to do the podcast. I don't have a sponsor, but it's only 15 or 20 minutes long.
5 (1h 37m 35s):
And it's been enormous fun because I just get to talk to all these people and then share that conversation. So
2 (1h 37m 56s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five-star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina Polizzi are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Jen has achieved nirvana: she looks like a serial killer! Farsightedness, migraines, deep work in therapy, all families need case management, Gina navigates an interpersonal conflict in a way that she wouldn't mind if anyone on Twitter read about it.
Let Me Run This By You: Is Adam McKay turning into Michael Moore? Don't Look Up, The Big Short,
Interview: We talk to Joel Butler about stage management, Blue Man Group, and the benefits of saying no to the actor's life.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth Ramirez and I'm Gina Pulice . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I can see, I can see, which is so brilliant. You know, like that's important. I didn't realize like, oh my God, I can see you. And my glasses are the same glasses that Jeffrey Dahmer has like, and that wasn't an accident.
1 (49s):
I was gonna say, Dwight Schrute, very similar, a similar style. And I got blue blocker and the anti-glare. So like you, can't straight up just see the screens in my eyeballs, you know, that's good. I can see the most important thing. Like I realized I was living like this. And did you have a headache all the time? And the saddest thing happened at the, at the doctor's office. I mean, sorry. I'm rustling. Okay. The saddest thing happens that wasn't really sad, but so my doctor, my ophthalmologist was this lovely woman. She looked like she was about 12. Like literally, she was like the teeniest loveliest woman. Anyway, she was like, have you had headaches your whole life?
1 (1m 32s):
I'm like, yeah, migraines. And she goes, and I said, and she made this face. You can't our listeners can't see it. I said, what? She goes your period. She said your parents should have taken it. You've been, you've been farsighted for your whole life. You're kidding me. And did you ever go to the eye doctor? And I said, no. They always just relied on the school to see if I could see the Blackboard. And I can see far, I can't see close. She said those migraines may have been like 50% glass. You just needed glasses or you
2 (2m 3s):
Raged.
1 (2m 4s):
You know, it's been a lot of rage lately. And a lot of sadness I've been doing a lot of deep work in therapy and the sadness to the neglect it to the level of neglect. Then I, now I'm realizing that I experienced is, is quite something like, I was like, what? And she goes, she goes, how old are you? And I said, 46. And she goes, when did this? I said, I started having migraines at five. She goes, and they never took you to the eye doctor. And she's like, that is so sad. She was like, she could tell in her face, she was like, oh, that's abusive. Like, she was like, what did they give you for your headaches? I'm like nothing because ibuprofen didn't work. She goes, well, of course, it's not going to work.
1 (2m 45s):
If it's an eye problem, it's also not going to work. I'd be profaned. It's not going to hit.
2 (2m 50s):
Okay. I, I, I, I'm not, I really don't mean to make, make this about me. But when you're telling me this story, I'm imagining how I would feel as you. And I asked you if you felt rage. But then I realized the thing that I would be feeling is embarrassed. Like it was my fault. I was neglected. Okay. You didn't have
1 (3m 11s):
No, I don't have that feeling that it was my fault. I was neglected. I have the feeling of, oh, these like, it is rage. And it's like, oh, they should've probably been chastised. If not given like some kind of ticket, you know, like a ticket from the police saying,
2 (3m 27s):
And we need to have tickets for parents. I, I, back that Eve herself. I'd love to be fine. I'd love for somebody to say, oh, you sent in Oreos with lunch. That's a fine, that's a, that's just like a $3 fine, but still don't, don't send it in Oreos with lunch. I mean, I don't ever do that because I don't send in lunch because I pay for lunch. Right. But the idea being we need, I guess the reason I'm being cheeky, but I guess the reason I'm saying is like, everybody needs to be held accountable. And sometimes we need external means of being held accountable.
1 (3m 59s):
You know, I was talking with my therapist and I really, the feeling is like, someone should have stepped in and said, okay, this family needs help. Like you, you need help like you, but here's the thing. Like, we looked so good from the outside. In so many ways, we had an immigrant success story, right. We had a father who wasn't abusive. We had a, in, in physically abusive in any way or sexually, we had a mom who, you know, we had good-looking, you know, my sister was like really, really above average in all ways. So like, it's so hard. And I know, and I think this is what made the movie, this show addressed.
1 (4m 40s):
It's so hard when a package looks a certain way for us, same with serial killers for us to wrap our head around the fact that something very bad is going on. And we don't want to believe it because it looked so pretty or, or didn't look ugly. Let's just say that. And it's it's, it's it? That is the, the feeling that I've had in therapy recently. It's just that I just long for someone rationally, a rational human being, Tufts stepped in and said, okay, this family needs help. Like, how can we help this family? Like, she's not getting eyeglasses, whether it's, you know, a money thing or, or not wanting to spend the money, or if it's just a, like an oversight overwhelmed.
1 (5m 25s):
My mom was totally overwhelmed with my father was underperforming. Like let's get in there and really try to make a care plan. Or like we needed a case manager, you know, and most families do need some kind of case management in, even if it's light, you know,
2 (5m 43s):
All families do. Do they have that in countries where they have socialized medicine? I bet not. I bet that that's a bridge too far, but I mean a school counselor, I guess, theoretically is supposed to do that. But a school counselor has literally hundreds of students in there, and
1 (5m 58s):
They're not worried about worry about a kid that looks well fed. Isn't ha doesn't have bruises and just literally has headaches. Like that's not a real problem.
2 (6m 8s):
Another example of where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Like imagine literally I don't mean to be a whatever overblown about it, but imagine how different your life might've been.
1 (6m 20s):
Yeah. I mean, I was, I had migraines from five years old. I was barfing and like, no one. And I actually didn't actually go to the doctor for them. Cause I think my mom was like, no, that's not a real problem. Like I never went to the doctor until I was 21 for them. And then they did a brain scan and they, they said, no, your brain is fine. And then they just said, it's hormones, which they always say to women. And no one ever said, maybe you're having you need glasses. This is crazy. It's crazy to me. So I'm, I'm grateful. I have them. They're like, they're like changing my, my world in terms of, yeah. I mean, what the fuck? And I chose on purpose to get like the same thing.
1 (7m 2s):
Jeffrey Dahmer has
2 (7m 4s):
Works for you. It really works for, I dunno, maybe it's having to do with the shape of your face, but it looks, you look stunning, gorgeous, serial killer.
1 (7m 13s):
How are you? Tell me things.
2 (7m 16s):
Okay. I'm pretty good. It's very sunny today, which even though it's 11 degrees, it's,
1 (7m 22s):
We'll take it. We'll take,
2 (7m 23s):
It can do anything in sunshine. I literally could move mountains if it's on the outside the minute there's clouds, right. I guess I'll just stay in my bed and watch TV. Right. So I'm doing okay today. Pretty good today. I realized I was relistening to the skiing story. That's in the episode that airs today. And I forgot to tell you kind of the funniest slash most pathetic part of it, 10 minutes into 15 minutes into the ski lesson, I'm sweating, right. Because of course it's
1 (7m 52s):
Fucking hard and you're bundled up. Okay.
2 (7m 54s):
And you're bundled up and it wasn't really that cold. So it was sweating. And then I remembered that I ha it was around 3:00 PM and I realized I hadn't eaten because I was really nervous about doing the lesson. And you know, when you get past that point of hunger where you start to feel nauseous. Yeah, I got there. And then I did that thing that I don't think I've done since I was in my twenties and drank too much where you feel like you're going to throw up right there in front of a bunch of people. Yes. Yeah. I'm just, I was just imagining, I don't know if anybody clocked me.
2 (8m 35s):
I don't think they did because of course everybody's always just being an engine to themselves and what they're doing, but also proves why it is everything is psychological. And maybe even, especially like a difficult physical thing, you're a person who wasn't raised doing difficult physical things. Like I can take on a emotional challenge, right? Not fail, no big deal. I can take on a, a mental challenge. In fact, I really love the mental challenges, but physical challenge gets me in my feelings every single time. So that's that the other thing is I had an interpersonal conflict this weekend with somebody that I'm estranged from essentially.
2 (9m 20s):
And I'm really proud of how I handled myself.
1 (9m 24s):
Let's hear how you handled yourself.
2 (9m 26s):
I said to this person, well, I start, we have a strange relationship that used to be personal and professional. Great. So I reached out to this person because I realized I had some of their stuff and I knew that I wanted to return. Right. And I had written this email just saying, Hey, I have these things. Let me know where you want me to drop him off. And he wrote back saying, oh, let me, I'll, I'll swing by. I'd love to see you, which threw me for a loop because we haven't talked in like 18 months.
1 (10m 2s):
Wow. That's a long time, couple
2 (10m 5s):
Months. So I wrote back a lie and I said, my kids are sick. I don't think you should come over. And then I decided that not because he deserved anything, but because that was betraying my own integrity, I totally, yup. And robbing me of the opportunity to tell somebody the way in which they hurt me. And so I wrote back and I said, I lied to you. All my kids are not sick. I didn't want to see you. Thank you. And then, and then I also avoided something that I typically do, which is then go into an overlong overly detailed.
2 (10m 47s):
Let me tell you my entire whatever, whatever for five pages, I had written that. And then I stopped myself from sending it. And I just said, I didn't want to see you because, and I just gave like three main reasons and that was it. And you know, it's just, people are so fascinating. His response to me was with zero acknowledgement for what I had said, except to say he disagreed. And just a basic thing of like, if you're, if somebody, oh, and then call, he called me a treasured friend, which I thought, oh really? I'm your treasured friend that you haven't reached out to.
2 (11m 28s):
It doesn't fit. It doesn't fit. And really, truly the inability. And by the way, I'm let me just preface this all to say I see it so clearly because I have done this majority of
1 (11m 41s):
Highlight, I relate to both parts of this.
2 (11m 44s):
You know, somebody tells me that they're hurt by me. And I say, I'm hurt by you. Right. And let me tell you why you shouldn't be hurt by me. And let me tell you all the things I've done for you. That's what he did to me. Oh wow. And I thought, and I, and then for a third time, I avoided the temptation to say your response is exactly why we don't have a friendship. And if you think that this is a treasured friendship, I encourage you to reevaluate your relationships in your life. Right. I didn't do that. It just, I just let it die. And it's okay because I don't feel torn up about it. And I feel I represented myself in exactly. My new guiding thing is let's imagine that this thing I'm going to write to this person gets published on Twitter.
2 (12m 25s):
How do I feel about it?
1 (12m 27s):
So great. I think that is a good north star of like, if this comes out, I always say to like, okay, if I run into this person at a party, how am I going to feel? But the last time we interacted, whether it's in writing or, and most of my things I would feel terrible about. So I stopped. I tried to do things differently, but I think that's so such a good, it also look, the thing about the truth is a personal truth is that it's done then like E it's exists in the world as a personal truth. They don't have to agree. And clearly the person did not agree with you about the content, like the content of it.
1 (13m 10s):
But you told the truth, your truth, like at the end of the day, that's the fucking ultimate thing we can do. That's it
2 (13m 20s):
Is that a lot of the time that I've spent in my life being upset about things that interpersonal one, one thing that I will say is true when the other person says here are all the ways you've hurt me is what I typically do is have a bunch of unexpressed emotions that then I'm mad that the person didn't respond to the emotions or the desires I never expressed in the first place. Right. So it's completely unfair the way I fight dirty in a way, you know, because, and I've, and I've said this before, but so many of my relationships used to end when I just couldn't take it anymore. And then I said to the person, like, I cannot be with you.
2 (14m 1s):
And, and they've always been really surprised. And this person was really surprised too, but I, I can honestly say they shouldn't have been surprised. And I said the truth about it. And because I said the truth about it, I didn't then spend the next, anytime after that rereading and getting, getting angry all over again, I just said, okay. So I laid it all out and they laid it all out and here we are, and we don't agree and that's fine. And the keeps,
1 (14m 31s):
And there's nothing. It's like, there's no like unfinished business. Like that's on your part. Like if they have someone to finish business in their brain, they're going to have to work that out. But like, if we have the unfinished business settled within ourselves, I feel like I can move forward and not be a toxic mess inside. Like I am.
2 (14m 54s):
It was your only job. Your only job in life is to not be toxic to yourself or other people.
1 (14m 59s):
Right. And because that'll kill you. Like I am so convinced that, you know, my speaking for myself and speaking for and watching my mother like that shit, that unresolved shit, the stuff we make up in our head or the real stuff leads to bad news, bad news. And I'm not saying people deserve it and I'm not saying I deserve it, or my mom deserved it. But I'm just saying, this is my firm belief. Is that not telling the truth to ourselves and not cleaning up our side of the street really leads me when I don't do that. I get sick and it can be a numerous ways. And, and, and, you know, and the tricky part is like some of the shit that we, that we, some of it, it starts out when we're little as not our fault.
1 (15m 45s):
Right. So then it switches to being our responsibility. At some point, I don't know where the line is, but it stops being okay, well, you were given this sort of shitty hand in life and you're making do with what you received. And so it's not really your fault. And I would argue, it's not really our quote fault ever, but when is it? It switches to being like, yeah, this is my responsibility to clean up my side of the street. Even though my parents neglected me, even though I never had glasses, like, I'm not going to like, yeah, right. It becomes a thing of like, now it's my job now it's my job. And I think it's only done through some kind of support or therapy where you can switch from, oh, now I've processed it.
1 (16m 30s):
I figured out what went wrong. Right. And how it went wrong. And now it's like, what am I going to do about it?
2 (16m 36s):
Of it? This therapist sounds great. So what's the, what's the, what are you? I think it'd be interesting for people to hear aside from going to therapy, which is a very practical thing to do. What are the other practical ways you can approach your own healing?
1 (16m 53s):
Oh, that's really good. I feel like, so my cousin D'Elia always says, just get back on your bullshit, which means, which is like what people talk about, which means like seriously basic ass shit that I think in this pandemic, we've come to see as not basic ass shit like water, sleep vitamins and exercise, moving the body, moving the body. Like people used to always say, right, like move your body. You have to move. And I used to think that was the stupidest thing I ever heard in my life. I was like, this is something skinny people say to shame, fat people, move your body, make sure you're moving.
1 (17m 37s):
Fuck you. But it's true. It doesn't even matter what size you are. You got to move. If you can, if you can't move one part, move the other part, but move something, right. It just it's for like reasons. And for emotional, physical reasons to move the energy is really important. And I feel like those things are the things that I now do, even if it's just, you know, and that's one thing that's great about getting a pet is that you kind of have to move, you know, and you just do. So what about you? What other things do you do? What do you do?
2 (18m 9s):
I would agree with you. Four mentioned things. And I think actually, as it turns out, writing, writing things down helps because I, a couple of things, I don't have a great memory. So sometimes I don't remember that I already worked through something. So I've started writing things down. And also because writing it down is kind of an in controvertible way of acknowledging that something happened. I mean, for people who have a bunch of unacknowledged nonsense in their history and are in this perpetual state of being victimized by the things that happened to them, that they don't feel anybody ever validated.
2 (18m 53s):
Goodness is only you ever have to validate it. Right. And if it doesn't work for you to say it out loud or say it to a loved one to validate it, it might work for you to write it down. Okay. Did you see don't look up?
1 (19m 19s):
No.
2 (19m 20s):
Okay. And you're not watching American stuff these days, so,
1 (19m 24s):
Well, I watched Cobra, Kai. That's very American and I watched a but no. Okay. But every, okay. So don't look up as one of those things. That's like speaking of hot button, people either love it or hate it. What about you?
2 (19m 38s):
Yes. Okay. Well, Adam McKay is my personal Lord and savior. I think he's the greatest. I have watched the movie, the big short, probably 60 times. Okay. And the reason he's so great for me is in the example of that movie, the big short, he takes a complicated thing that I never understood. And he makes it easy to understand and tells a great story along the way. It's not that it's a perfect movie. There's a lot. Yeah. There's a lot about it that I actually don't like, or not a lot. There are some things about it, which I actually don't like, but he has this pastiche style of storytelling that is it's equal parts, like informative, educational, funny, scary, sad.
2 (20m 25s):
It's the whole enchilada, which is, that's my thing. That's what I really love. I love something. That's not afraid to be all things. However, and I, I didn't actually finish watching. Don't look up. I got interrupted. So maybe I'll feel differently after I've seen the ending of it. And I, I like it. And I think it's a great concept. And I think he's doing all of the things that I love him for. However, I did have the thought is he becoming Michael Moore? You know, because I was all on board with Michael Moore when a bowling for Columbine came out, I just thought he was such a genius. And as time went on, I'm like, oh, he's cuckoo.
2 (21m 5s):
Like he's Coco, he's conspiracy theory. He's presenting what seems like a fact without enough context to really understand that. I'm not quite saying that Adam McKay is doing that, but he, you know, when, when people, I think achieve success in telling their thing, okay, here's an example. Somebody will become famous for one day on Twitter because something that they said goes viral, right. And inevitably they get a bunch of followers. And usually what happens is that person goes, wow, that blew up. Okay. Well, and then they give their elevator pitch about who they are and check out my website.
2 (21m 47s):
And here's my, you know, web series, whatever, which is, I understand it. But when I am the person who follows that person and they do that, then I, and then I unfollow them because I think, okay, now you drank your own. Kool-Aid see. It was cool. When you didn't know you were saying something, but now, you know, you saying something cool and your knowledge of it makes you an interesting me
1 (22m 10s):
Trying to write it it'd be goes too far. And they be, they, you, right. They drink their own Kool-Aid and they're trying to sell themselves then.
2 (22m 18s):
Yes. I feel a little worried that if I thought a McKay is doing that, because he's had so much success and he split from will Ferrell this, I believe this is the first, or I dunno if they split, but like, they're not,
1 (22m 34s):
No, they split. There's like a hole. They got in a big drama too. There is a drama to it. Apparently not, not really, but there was an article like saying we're out of Mackay. Literally was like, I was an asshole. I did bad things and will,
2 (22m 50s):
Oh, oh, okay. That, that tracks, I would say, because I've heard them in interviews. I mean, yeah, he does not seem like a person I would want to be friends with, even though, even though I called him my Lord and savior, I was being cheeky, but I just really like his, I really like his style of filmmaking, but yeah, I, and it's too bad in the same way as Michael Moore. Because if you take away all of the, whatever, whatever, like the message is still in. And like, it's a movie about a comment. It's a fictional movie about a comment, but it's an allegory for climate change. And it's such an important I did.
2 (23m 30s):
I worked on a play, no, I didn't work on Iowa. I was close to some people who were working on a play that that was an allegory for climate change. And that is how that is the effective way to get across these really difficult messages to people is through a really entertaining story. Because if you're, if you're going to beat them over the head with you should stop eating meat and recycling is not enough. And then people are like, I don't want to be lectured to, but you make a great movie or you make a great piece of art and people make that connection on their own. That's what causes them to change. So, anyway, so I was just curious. Did you see any of his other sins? Did you see the big shore?
2 (24m 12s):
Oh, advice was also really good.
1 (24m 15s):
I don't know why I'm like, I don't know why I never saw, I heard the big, short was brilliant.
2 (24m 22s):
So it's so good. Is it also the
1 (24m 24s):
Mortgage crisis?
2 (24m 26s):
Yes. It's all about the subprime mortgage crisis and it's an Altru. I mean, they fictionalized certain things, but, and they say that, but yeah. And, you know, check it out. So that was my thing. You got anything to run by me? Well, I was just,
1 (24m 40s):
I'm going to say like, you know, I'm like a lot of people, I got really obsessed with Cobra, Kai, and it wasn't, it's interesting. A small child got me interested into it that it was not alive when you know, my friend's daughter was not alive when we were obviously alive in the eighties, but it's really filling this hole for people, Cobra, Kai. It started out as a joke. Like they weren't making a show and they put it on YouTube and then it got all this hype and stuff like that. And it's look, it's three white dudes that made it. It's not there's, there's nothing, nothing progressive about the, any of it.
1 (25m 26s):
There's nothing, but why is it filling this hole? It's so fascinating. It's, it's simple. It's not, I think we love nostalgia, but it's more than that because a whole new generation is obsessed with it. So it's not even just like, it's a bunch of us sitting around watching it. A lot of kids are watching it. It's, it's so crazy. It's about karate in the valley. What is
2 (25m 54s):
Okay, well, I haven't seen it, but I've obviously I saw the original movies. Could it be that we're really thirsty for this, the observable villain, the known villain, that, that, it's just a very straightforward competition of like who's stronger than who, because I think the thing that causes all the on we in the world is unknown sealable forces that are working against
1 (26m 27s):
'cause. It's like really clear in Cobra, Kai, who the villain is like in every scene. So there is no virus. There is no, right. There is no like social, you know, they, they th the shows have messages, but there it's very obvious. Everything is a very obvious and the characters are very no nuance.
2 (26m 53s):
See that doesn't surprise me at all. Because one of the trends in AR over the last, I don't know, 50 years has been increasingly more to make things ambiguous and to leave things in the mind of like, you, I'm not going to tell you what the answer is. You decide. Right. I put myself in the category of writers and directors, people who like to do that, who likes to leave it up for the person's interpretation, which is fine. But sometimes people just want an answer. What is it, how am I supposed to feel? And I think you sent that to me when we were talking about documentaries, was that what it was? Or you were talking to me about something, and you said, I just want to know what the point of yeah,
1 (27m 33s):
It wasn't. It was, it was wild, wild country, I think. Yes.
2 (27m 38s):
Right. The documentary to know like,
1 (27m 41s):
Who is good and who is bad and who did the right thing and who did the wrong thing. And that doesn't exist in documentaries. I mean, it shouldn't because that's not what a documentary's job is. I don't think, but I don't know. I'm no expert, but I do think you're right. And Cobra, Kai, there is no question. I mean, even, even when the dojo's, which are like, like, you know, stand-ins for the political parties or whatever, even when they quote disagree or there's ambiguous stuff, you, you know, ultimately who's evil and who's good at heart and, and will you're rooting for like it's and then, yeah.
1 (28m 22s):
And also like the guy, Ralph macho, you know, whatever, he's fine. But what he's stiff is he, he, he acts like he's a coat hanger in his back. Right. But, but Billy Williams who plays. Johnny is like salt of the earth. But the fucking best actor I've seen in a long time, I cannot get over it. I'm like this dude should fucking be teaching actor, studio classes take over for James Lipton. He's so simple. And so, and so, but doesn't Telegraph, like he's not overacting. He's like found this middle ground of like, I totally believe him.
1 (29m 6s):
And you don't like him very much, but you also learned the why he's doing what he's doing. And that makes you love him. You may not like him, but you love him. Anyway, the guy hasn't been around, like he stopped acting for like 20 years and was a filmmaker. So maybe being behind the
2 (29m 22s):
Camera, the guy who played the original,
1 (29m 24s):
They're all original people.
2 (29m 27s):
Oh, you're kidding me. I didn't know. That
1 (29m 31s):
Is Johnny from 1980, whatever. And now he's playing Johnny as an adult and he's fucking brilliant. What's he been up to let's even doing so he left acting right after the karate kid. I believe. I don't know. My other, my friend is getting like really obsessed with it. So she's like in the fandom world, I dunno. But he, he then started directing and producing. So I think being behind the camera for so long, he like learned what fucking good acting is. And so I was like, oh my God, he's so much better than anyone else on that show the kids that he is. I, he deserves like Emmy's Oscar, whatever, give it to him.
1 (30m 11s):
And he also, there is an air about him. Like he fucking doesn't care if he's acting like he, he
2 (30m 18s):
That's the most attractive thing when somebody is not hungry or thirsty agree with them in any way.
1 (30m 23s):
He literally, the way he acts and says the lines and stuff it is is if it's just another day, like he, he could just assume work at the home Depot, like literally. And you're like, oh my God, he's so authentic because yeah. So anyway, I, anyone out there that's so I guess what I wanted to run by you was like, do you think that, is that it like, and then you've pretty much said it is that we're hungry to know. Who's good. And who's bad in this world right now. Yeah,
2 (30m 50s):
I think so. Because the other thing that I consumed recently is this book it's called my friend, Anna and I had never heard the story before. It's about a woman who was purporting to be a German heiress. And she was a con a con artist. Yeah. So the person who wrote the book starts with this story about going on a trip to Morocco that was supposedly being paid for by her friend, Anna. Oh
1 (31m 28s):
Yeah. This is coming back to me. I've heard of this. We'll keep going.
2 (31m 31s):
And every time it comes time to pay the check, it's something with her credit card or trust fund the cast to call her bankers and whatever, and Switzerland. And anyway, she has no money. She has no trust men. She's not an heiress at all. So, so the, the person who wrote the book did get stuck with the, for a while. She got stuck with like a $60,000 American express bill. And she was just a person working at vanity fair as a photography, whatever, not an intern, but like a low-level job. Yeah. And yet I was like, really? He wrote a whole book about this, you know, like, okay, if I'm not saying this wasn't a bad thing, but this thing to you was so bad that you had to write a book.
2 (32m 22s):
I mean, at the end, like American express, they forgave it and this girl went to jail and
1 (32m 28s):
Yeah,
2 (32m 32s):
What's the bar for telling a story. Well, the other
1 (32m 35s):
Thing that comes to mind is like, for me as a writer is also like, this shit gets bought without fuck. They published this year.
2 (32m 45s):
Exactly. A white lady. Exactly. Of course she is. And, and she, I it's audio book and she narrates it or just like, yeah, she's whining kind of. And I just think like, man, okay, maybe this is your right to make this money back. Cause you got this, you know, this has been a difficult thing for you, but like, do we really need your voice right now? I don't. I think the answer is no, no,
1 (33m 11s):
You could've made a blog about it and called it a day or like, or maybe there's a vanity fair article. It sounds like something that would be really,
2 (33m 18s):
Oh yeah, there wasn't. And of course in the epilogue, I guess, or maybe it was at the end, the second, this hit the news so-and-so option, the life rights or the the vanity fair article. So-and-so that's the other thing, like, I don't understand this disconnect in the powers that be, that make things between either we have to make something that we've already made or we have to find a salacious story. Like what about the millions of people who are writing really great scripts? What's wrong with that?
1 (33m 58s):
Yeah. I think that it's I think that, yeah, you're right. I think that people only want, they want the extremes, like either the thing that has never been thought of before or the thing that we will remake some great idea. That's been theirs. We don't like the, the middle area in this world, in this culture, in this planet. We don't like it. We want it.
2 (34m 22s):
We're going to have to embrace the middle path at some point, because not embracing the middle path is exactly why we have a lot of the problems that we have
1 (34m 31s):
Extremes, like come on. So yeah. And then yeah, I just, okay. Yeah, that doesn't sound, it's like good for you that you, but also it makes me think that like, okay, like, you know, she had all these connections at vanity fair. Right? Probably.
2 (34m 47s):
And honestly she wandered into these jobs. Like she got, she went to Kenyan call. I'm sure it's all about her Kenyon college connection. She went to Kenyon college. She wrote, she figured out the formatting of somebody's email because she looked at how vanity fair formats, their emails sent it to somebody looking for a job. That person wrote her a like three paragraph response. Oh. And I'm not the right person, but you look great. And you know what, let me forward your fit. I'm going, who gets this treatment? I just cold emailed somebody.
1 (35m 26s):
I literally get that treatment one out of every 635, maybe emails. And it's a two paragraph saying no, but great cover letter, but you're great. Doesn't
2 (35m 37s):
Lead to anything. And it's not no, but let me refer you to a colleague. Who's definitely going to give you a job. I mean, it's just,
1 (35m 44s):
It's like, she's probably a cute white lady,
2 (35m 45s):
Right? I mean, that's exactly what she has and it's all. And that's what got to me, there was no point in the story where she said she w she was plenty, happy to talk about. She was, as they say, she was PO mouthing saying that her, she didn't come from a lot of money and she's from Tennessee and whatever. She was very happy to say that, but she never sucked about her
1 (36m 6s):
Privilege. And that's
2 (36m 7s):
Why the course, it's my white, thin attractive privilege that got me the job job at vanity fair, you know, getting into these circles where I can go meet somebody who's trying to con right.
1 (36m 22s):
You can't even meet somebody. That's trying to cut the rest because we're really what you would be is like talking with homeless people on the street. Like that's, you know what I mean? Like, go do write a book about that, you know? Yeah. No, I'm a hard pass to that
2 (36m 49s):
Today on the podcast we talked to Joel Butler Butler is a stage manager. He's been working with blue man group for the majority of his career. And he has some great insight to share from the perspective of stage management. So please enjoy our interview with Joe Butler. Oh, one thing I'll just say we, we're not able to record this the normal way we do. And we had to do it on zoom, which has lots of limitations audio wise. So it may not be up to snuff, but it's the best we can do. So what else can we do?
2 (37m 39s):
Oh God. Are you in Chicago,
3 (37m 42s):
Joel or
2 (37m 46s):
How's that?
3 (37m 49s):
Yeah, it's cold today. It's like five degrees, but I've been here since 2010. I was in 29 with the great recession. I got laid off at blue man, Chicago. And then a year later they called me with a position in Boston.
1 (38m 7s):
There was a blue van pasta.
3 (38m 8s):
Yes, yes. Yeah. They've been here since 95. Holy shit.
2 (38m 14s):
Yeah. Okay. Well, we jumped right in. So congratulations, Joel Butler, you survived theater school. I love to hear from the perspective from, from the other side of things, because I find it, we have found that often anybody who is not enacting had a much more narrative experience of school than we did. What about for you? Do you, do you have like a, kind of a complete memory of theater school or is it sort of patchy for you?
3 (38m 42s):
No, I have a complete memory of it. I mean, I've been listening to you two other episodes on, and the trauma that the acting students had. Like, I was not aware of a lot of it. I mean, I knew there were some stuff, but the depths of it with some of the stories was, was kind of shocking to me, to be honest, because for me, at least I started off actually as a theater study students, my first year there and about like a month into it, I realized, oh, I'm in the wrong program. And talks to Frank, about transferring to stage management, which is what I was really leaning towards. And so I had to save the theater studies program for the first year and then went into the production management major in my second year and basically had to redo my first year and my second year.
3 (39m 33s):
And,
2 (39m 34s):
Oh, wait, does that mean that, does that mean that you thought you were going to be doing stage management in the theater studies program?
3 (39m 40s):
Actually? Well, when I was looking at schools, you know, I mean, I always, I always knew I wanted to do theater. I always, you know, I grew up in New Jersey. My parents took me to see Broadway shows all the time. You know, one of my first memories of seeing Peter pan as a kid with Sandy Dunkin and, you know, and, you know, I remember the feeling like when I saw them fly and I'm like, oh, you know, and so that really hooked me. And so, you know, and I went to a performing arts high school part-time, you know, for acting and voice. And I knew pretty early on that. I didn't want the actress life, but I wanted to work in theater. And in my high school, the stage manager was actually kind of more like an assistant director than a stage manager. So I actually, wasn't a hundred percent clear of what stage management really was until I actually got to college.
3 (40m 25s):
And so looking at majors and looking at schools, and then when I got to theater school, the theater studies program looking at the curriculum of it really seemed to align with what I thought stage managers did because the production management major only had one stage management class. And so I didn't really feel like this. And then when I got, there was like, oh, I'm in the wrong program. And there was only one other stage manager in the first-year class, Kelly Craven. So myself and Rodney hunter actually was in the same do the same thing. So both Rodney and I transferred to production management for our second year, but Frank Lucas was really supportive and let you know both Robbie and I, the assistant stage managers for our crew assignments for the second and third quarter of our first year, and then really transitioned fully into the production management major for a second, third, fourth year.
3 (41m 18s):
Yeah.
1 (41m 19s):
What did appeal to you about the actor's life? I mean, you,
2 (41m 23s):
You were so smart by the way you made such the right
1 (41m 26s):
Decision made the right decision.
2 (41m 28s):
And we've never said on this program to people, if you really like theater, but you're met some mats on being an actor, please do something else in theater because also you will be employed and you won't, if you're an actor.
3 (41m 42s):
Well, that's part of that, you know, as part of the employment and plus, you know, I have so many self-esteem issues back then, just the constant critiques and you know, of, of everything. I just didn't want to deal with that with my mental state and just the uncertainty of it. I mean, I knew there was always going to be uncertainty going into theater, but I kind of wanted, you know, I really thought about, okay, what, what is it a feeder that attracts me? And what is it that I really enjoy about theater? And, you know, for me, like, yeah, the applause was great, but what I really enjoyed most was the process and putting it all together and putting it on. And that's kind of where I felt stage management was really a good fit for me. And then in actually getting to do it at the theater school, I just fell in love with it immediately.
3 (42m 26s):
And
1 (42m 27s):
What about it? Did you fall in love with like what made really had a lot of juice for you about it?
3 (42m 33s):
Oh, well I looked puzzles and, you know, stage management is really just kind of like putting one big puzzle together all the time, you know, and then learning more about, you know, the rules of the duties and responsibilities of the state manager was, was really appealing. Frank kids actually in, in the stage management class gave me the best piece of advice I've ever gotten about what stage management is and w and I've taken it with me. And what he said was the stage managers are in charge of nothing but responsible for everything. And I really taken that to heart, you know, and, and the way that I approach stage management, that, you know, I'm not, I'm not dictating what people are doing, I'm responsible so that they feel supported, so they can go on and put the best show up every night that they can do.
3 (43m 22s):
You know,
2 (43m 23s):
So one thing that occurs to like a lasting memory of stage managers and stage management at our age was there is something sort of inherently parental about being a stage manager. And when you're having to do that with your peers, or in many cases, probably people who are older than you, what was that like?
3 (43m 43s):
And, you know, it's definitely intimidating at times, you know, you know, when I had to deal with some personalities that were a little bit more grander than others, You know, I never, I personally, I never had a negative really, really negative experience with anybody at the theater school. You know, there were definitely some people who had some egos about them and, you know, had to navigate those waters, especially when I did make the pass. There were a few in there
1 (44m 16s):
You didn't use stage manage shoes and Lee's Macbeth. Yeah. Do you know, I
2 (44m 22s):
Just pick, I'm sorry. Does the directors get to pick their stage
3 (44m 24s):
Managers? No, no. Frank work gets assigned to them.
1 (44m 28s):
I loved Frank Walker, which by the way,
3 (44m 30s):
Yeah.
1 (44m 32s):
Oh man. But I, I remember you don't, it's so interesting. The two productions that I think got the most sort of, I don't know, weirdness about them were Peter pan and Macbeth both directed by her. And I don't have any look, I don't know her from Adam. She said some really weird shit in our classes. And, and, and also like I'm friends with her on Facebook, which is odd. I saw that the other day. But anyway, that show that my best show was sort of this larger than life situ it was almost like a Broadway play in, at the, at the world.
1 (45m 13s):
Right. Like everyone wanted to be in it. And I, I know,
3 (45m 18s):
Well, she had this great shift where you have that great concept, like with, with the drumming, For the big fight, at the end, we had the ensemble circle that, that rate stage, you know, that we use for both that and yellow boat. And, and, and it just, you know, it was just really primal, you know, a little bit, I know the drums would be a huge part of my life at that time, but
1 (45m 41s):
Segue my segment, tell everybody what you're talking about.
3 (45m 44s):
Yeah. So now, you know, cause I worked for blue man for 20 plus years now. So just drumming has just kind of ironically, just, I never cared to listen about drumming and I, that it's just yeah. Pretty much. Yeah.
1 (45m 58s):
Tell us, tell us your bloomin' story. How did you get a job? Yeah.
3 (46m 2s):
Oh, well, I was so after college, you know, I did the day job thing, but I actually worked at the theater school for a year as the production coordinator, that little office right in the front there, I worked there for a year and then did like a day job. It's a crew with the Goodman theater and made my way to about the theater, which is the small LGBT company in Chicago and then kind of through them and other people someone's like, oh, Hey blue, man's looking for a stage manager. And so I applied and luckily got it. I did apply with women when they first opened in 97 in Chicago, but they were like, oh, you're just out of college. Go get some more experience. So, so I did that.
3 (46m 42s):
And then
1 (46m 44s):
I have a question. I have a question. Did you feel when, when you left the theater school as a stage manager, did you feel like equipped to be a stage manager?
3 (46m 55s):
I did. That's fair,
1 (46m 57s):
Fucking fantastic.
3 (46m 59s):
'cause the, you know, another thing that, you know, the Franklin can set here to get some really great advice was, you know, at least for the stage management department and maybe all the technical side of things is the school will give to you what you put into it, you know, you know, and for us, the majority of our education was actually doing it and doing the shows, you know, and, you know, I actually just got done working at the Boston conservatory at Berkeley for the fall semester being one of their stage managers and just getting to see how another conservatory does things. We were spoiled at DePaul. We were, I mean, having that Merle reskin stage play and being able to do shows in a Broadway house and, you know, like we were spoiled.
1 (47m 42s):
That's so good to know. It gives me a new perspective. Okay. Okay.
3 (47m 46s):
And, you know, and, and, you know, even hearing the stories, but all having to do shows in classrooms like there, some of their students, you know, they don't have a guarantee of being in production. So, you know, at least when we went there, you know, all the acting students had a guarantee that they were going to do shows and gain experience. You know,
1 (48m 2s):
Sometimes there's some places don't do, you're not guaranteed to be in a show at all
3 (48m 7s):
And do like two or three shows a quarter.
1 (48m 11s):
Can you imagine that you graduate? You've never been in a goddamn play.
3 (48m 17s):
Also another, like another great thing about it, you know, is that we did multiple weekends of shows versus just one, like Berkeley only did one weekend of shows, which, you know, it's just, which was great that we actually can do it. But you know, a big part of the training for actors is maintaining a show and then not really getting that experience. So like telling them, we did kids shows for three months, you know, three times a week, they were like, that's insane. And you know, so
1 (48m 45s):
No, this is helping me get like a different perspective. No, I'm serious. Like I know, I don't think we ever heard that before that, like, can you,
2 (48m 54s):
We did hear the, from the person who went to Northwestern, that she never got cast the entire time she was there. So, yeah. Right. You're right. We were spoiled in some ways. So w what is your connection? If, if you have any at all to, or ha over the years to people who are studying stage management now, or do you ever mentor,
3 (49m 16s):
The only mentoring I've really done is just having people shadow me as Lou man, blue man has such a weird own universe in the theater world. You know, I did find myself get a little pigeonholed in that, you know, when I first found myself out of work in oh nine, well, cause there's, some of the bigger theaters were just like, oh, you're a blue man. And you're too small for us. And the smaller theaters were like, oh, you're blue, man. You're too big for us. And it's just like, I just want to do theater. So.
1 (49m 48s):
And why did you, did you stay with blue, man? It must've actually, what did it give you? Like, obviously it was steady work. They probably paid well. Right. But what did you stay there? What did you love? What do you love about it? Like what it's, what do you love about it?
3 (50m 3s):
Well, the, one of the best things about blue man is that the show is different every night, you know, because the, you know, it's a rotating cast and band, and there are some moments in the show that are slightly improv and each show is different depending on the audience and the energy of the audience and the relationship between the blue men and the band and, and the show has been updated over the years as well. So, you know, while the times, if they get a little stagnated, there was always enough in there to keep it fresh and to keep it exciting. And plus I also got some amazing travel opportunities. I've traveled all over the world with, yeah, I've gone to it's right before total, actually in 2020 was in China for a month and a half.
3 (50m 49s):
And I was in did the show in Saudi Arabia, in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia for a month, which was really exciting. One of the best things that I got to do with blue man was we had a show on Norwegian cruise lines and I was the cash crossover stage manager, which meant, so the, the cast changed out every four months. And so the, when a new cast would go in and those cats will leave, I would go with them for a week and kind of onboard them onto the ship, run the rehearsals, get them into the show, You know, I would get to cruise the Mediterranean for a week or the Caribbean for a week and get paid. And it was great, you know, so I did that for like four years, you know, and got to go to everywhere, you know, Rome and Barcelona and Palmer and amazing.
1 (51m 42s):
Yeah, you could, that sounds like a fucking dream. And also it's all hard. The other thing that I want to say is like, when I th my biggest sort of learning experience with a stage manager, this is good. This is like ASCA stage manager. So I didn't realize that stage managers ran rehearsals for understudies. It's fucking crazy. You have to be a director. So like you, I don't think people know that. So when I was understudying at the red, at a red orchid, Stephanie Heller was our stage manager and she ran, she had to be a director, a stage manager, a props person.
1 (52m 23s):
It was crazy. So I don't think people know exactly the amount of shit that stage managers do and the amount of like emotional labor that's involved, because we had people that didn't know what the fuck they were doing as understudies. And she would have to teach them how to do crazy. Crazy.
3 (52m 43s):
Yeah. I mean, you know, another analogy of stage management is, you know, we're just spinning plates and just trying to keep all the plates spinning at the same time, you know, and, you know, that's why it's so important that stage managers have a good relationship with directors and, and really pay attention in those blocking sessions in rehearsal sessions, because it's our responsibility to communicate the director's vision to the understudies. Once we're open,
1 (53m 4s):
It was crazy how much directing she gave me. I was direction and good direction. It wasn't like she was like, she like knew what knew the play inside and out. So anyway, I guess what I'm S I also want to ask is how do you think that there's a certain amount of psychological awareness that you need as a stage manager to deal with people? Yeah,
3 (53m 25s):
Definitely. Oh, definitely. I do wish that part of the curriculum was more like sociology classes, psychology classes. So those personnel management type classes, because that is a huge part of stage management, especially on a long running show, on a shorter show, on like a contract show where you're just doing it for four or five weeks, there are some things that you might like, okay, we're just here for a few weeks, we'll split a slide, but you know, doing an open-ended show that runs for 20 years and you have interpersonal conflict and dealing with this stuff, you really need to nip that in the bud as quickly as possible.
1 (53m 58s):
I've seen some crazy ass shit go on in the stage manager had to like this guy in. And I just have to tell you in an understudy rehearsal, this guy got so mad that he smashed a glass. And I was so triggered. I thought I was like, what the fuck is happening? And then our stage manager stepped in and was brilliant, but like, w how did you learn that shit? Like, how do you approach that shit?
3 (54m 21s):
It's just, just by doing it, you know, you just kinda gotta suck it up and do it, you know, when those hard things come and, you know, rehearsal rooms get tense because that's, that happens, you know, I mean, that happened at the theater school too, a few times for me. So, and that was hard, you know, as a student, you know, in dealing with faculty directors and who might get a little spicy
1 (54m 45s):
You're so diplomatic, they got some badass crazies, what they got, what, how do you approach it? Like, what's your philosophy of something's going bonkers? What do you do? How do you, what do you say to yourself? You're like, I just have to do it. Or like how
3 (54m 59s):
It's way up to doing. You have to, you know, depending on the situation, deescalate the such situations, you know, if it's really, if it's about to come to blows, you know, separate people, if it's, if it's just kind of like awkwardness, you know, see how long you can ride it until you can take a break in a rehearsal room, like, Hey, let's just take a break right now, you know, and go talk to people. It's really just about communication. And, you know, nine times out of 10, when people have a problem in, you know, in a rehearsal room where they react to something negatively, it's not times I said not because of what just happened. It's because of other
2 (55m 34s):
Circumstances. Yeah. Like, I'm wondering, for example, when you're doing something on the road, this, this seems to me a really ripe opportunity for there to be problems. People are in a foreign land. They don't, you know, there any, even if they weren't having to remap, essentially the show in a new space is there's always some getting used to it. So do you find the abroad part is a little bit more challenging in terms of the human resources side of things and people feeling out of sorts or tense?
3 (56m 7s):
Well, most of the stuff that I've done abroad that was kind of like sit down touring stuff was in such, you know, far places that the culture shock of it all was kind of felt by everybody which actually bonded everybody a little bit more, you know, you know, like in a plane, shout China for a week, which is, you know, this city in the middle of China where there's nothing around there and there's nothing to do in there. You know, you, you, you kind of become a fat family. And so again, it's, again, the same thing when things come up, you know, you rely on your company management.
1 (56m 43s):
Oh,
3 (56m 45s):
Sure. Related would I, would I step in at that point auditorium,
2 (56m 50s):
Are you expected to manage every problem like that on your own? At what point do you have to bring it to somebody else?
3 (56m 58s):
I mean, it depends on the production, like here at blue man, we are your management team, you know, between state management and company management and, you know, company managements are my supervisors. So, and then I supervise proof formers. So it's, it's, it's conversations about, it's not those things about disciplinary thing actions. And it just depends on the company and the company's policies of how that goes, if it's more corporate, you know, like then theater,
1 (57m 24s):
I also feel like, like in union versus non-union shows. Okay. So like in storefront theater non-union shows crazy shit would go on. Like that would never be allowed at a you, you know, I think that you need as important for the, for actually for like mental health and physical safety boundaries in theater, because I feel like theater can get so wild and people don't, people use it as a, as a, as a way of like working through shit, which is not supposed to be, but like at least with a union situation, there's like rules, right? It's like, oh no, no, you can't just start doing, but non-union did you ever, you went union really fast, right? Because when you,
3 (58m 5s):
No, I'm living, I'm not union actually. Yeah. No blue man. It's not union. Well, cause when Bloomberg first opened, they invited equity and equity is like, you don't talk, we don't watch it. So they didn't, they didn't go union crew wise only the Vegas show is unionized. The rest of it is not, but blue man has been always really good about taking care of their employees. So, you know, the goal with that was always to make them not want to unionize because you know, so
2 (58m 35s):
Save money,
1 (58m 37s):
But also, so that if you're treated well enough, you won't need to union is that it's also the underlying thing. Right.
3 (58m 44s):
But I'm, you know, I inequity myself, you know, I don't need, you know, so I'm totally pro union. And in the situations where I have worked union, like the rules are great, they're there for a reason. And you know, all this new conversation about in the industry of, you know, getting rid of tens out of 12 and work-life balance is wonderful. And I support it a hundred percent and I hope that we're able to all able to find that way forward so that we're not all killing ourselves to produce art.
2 (59m 11s):
I actually, a 10 out of 12, 10 out of 12 should have been abolished a long time ago. So I'm on theater, Twitter. And I, you know, a couple of weeks ago there was a lot of talk about understudies and, and oh, right. Well, we never get to really hear about what are the kind of collective concern or I maybe, because I'm not on stage management, Twitter, we never get to here. I don't feel like I ever get to hear about the collective concerns of people who aren't actors or, you know, or I mean, actors, understudies or actors too. What are kind of some of the big conversations? I know, I know you're not on Broadway right now, but like what are some of the big conversations about the stage management world in American theater?
3 (59m 51s):
Wow. That's a lot of pressure. I can do it. Like I said, my world is pretty much been blue man a lot. So, you know, one of the kids Broadway with a dream, but I just don't think that's in the cards anymore, which is totally fine because you know, what I've done is great on its own. So, but what I think is, again, is the work-life balance thing. You know, work life balance for stage managers is always been difficult because you know where they're supposed to be the first to first to be their last to leave, you know, we're responsible. Like I said, we're, we are responsible for everything, you know, and you know, I know I would work 60 hour or 70 hour weeks during the tech process just to, to get it all done and to, you know, and to be there for everybody else.
3 (1h 0m 39s):
And, you know, like, so at Berkeley, you know, I, when I was stage managing, I, we did head over heels, which was a very fun musical musical, but the tech process was a little stressful. You know, it was, we ran a, some difficulties, you know, with, with just everything going on right now. And, you know, I worked about a 65 hour a week in that tech week and the one thing, but the thing was, is also my first show back, you know, post COVID that I had done. And while it was frustrating and stressful at the same time, I was like, I'm having the best time of my fucking life right now. You know, like I'm, I'm having a great time. I'm putting on art, I'm working with really talented kids, those students at that school, so talented and, and it was just having the best time and just that feeling of putting on theater and like, and just being a part of that process of feeder.
3 (1h 1m 29s):
That's what sustains me, you know, and, you know, if, because everything else was really nice, it was a positive experience and other experiences, I think working 65 hours could be really hard, horrible too. But
2 (1h 1m 41s):
I would love to hear that. I love to hear that because I guess I never really put much thought into the, the excitement or the feeling of artists. I mean, I don't know if you would call it artistic eye, but I guess it is artistic satisfaction that people get in, you know, in all the roles in theater from putting on a show, right. That's what we really like really like putting on a show.
3 (1h 2m 2s):
Well, since management is an art form, you know, I, and, and I, I will advocate that about the artist stage management until the day I die, you know?
2 (1h 2m 11s):
Well,
3 (1h 2m 12s):
Well, because you know, well, paperwork is boring to some, it needs to look pretty that's, you know, that's, you know, I, I like, I like my clip art. I like making pretty borders and stuff, you know, but then once you get to the actual show running and calling a show and the ability to call a show properly and be in sync with the performers is important, you know, and that's one skill I really learned at blue man is I have to really be in sync with the performers and the blue men to, to hit moments, to hit east, to hit transitions. And, and even in regular plays or musicals where there isn't much improv, you still have to be in tune with everybody. You know, you have to be on the beat with the conductor. You have to be, you know, with the actor, who's singing that song who might want to take an extra breath.
3 (1h 2m 53s):
And so, you know, there, there is an art form to it. And sometimes I feel that might get a little pushed to the wayside and talking to management, cause calling isn't just, you know, lights go let you know, you have to be in the moment, just like an actor. You have to, you know, you know, I might hold a light cue a second or two longer, depending on if that scene really rock tonight or take a quicker because it failed tonight. You know? So, you know, that's what I, when I thought about the artist stage management, you know, it's really more, you know, it's probably a little more focused on the calling side of things, but the paper exciting was pretty big.
2 (1h 3m 28s):
The, the ha it's a lot of active listening, which is exactly what it is to be an actor. I, one time was hearing somebody on some podcast talking about calling Starlight express, which, you know, people like broke their legs and stuff in that show. People who don't know it's, it's a musical that's, everybody's on roller skates. And so that, I think actually in that show is where they, they pioneered something about the, those cue lights. I think that's where say, I think that's where cue lights started was that Starlight express. I could be making that up
3 (1h 4m 2s):
Lights,
2 (1h 4m 3s):
The red light, red light to keep people on. Okay. But I want it to get back to this thing that you said in the beginning that you didn't have any idea, sorry, my dog was pregnant. Her, you didn't have any idea about the, the drama, you didn't experience as much like storm and drunk, whatever in your side of things. And you didn't really know about that from the actress. I guess that kind of surprises me because we all spent so much time together. It doesn't surprise me that there wasn't as much drama in your program because of the nature of the work. But I guess it surprises me that you, so what, what's an example of something that surprised you to hear about,
3 (1h 4m 39s):
Well, I guess it was just some of the, you know, borderline abuse, you know, like from some of the acting teachers, especially in the first year, some of those stories, I was like, wow, that's harsh. You know? And like, I always, I knew that there was, you know, that the acting teachers there, you know, really when actually off, but just a couple of the smaller stories, I was just like, oh, that's, that's intense, you know? And just, you know, like listening to Jen Coburn, her, her, her one, like a few things that she was saying, some of the professors would talk to her. I'm just like, that's just not right. You know, you know, and, and, and the awkwardness, you know, some of the inappropriateness of things, you know, in our time at the theater school, you know, like, like for colored girls, you know, like doing that show with only three African-American actresses in the casting pool, not the best choice, you know, and things like that and good doing guns.
3 (1h 5m 30s):
Do you remember that show gun? The children's musical about that? The characters were seven and it was a musical and, And they shoot the human at the end of the musical.
1 (1h 5m 47s):
It was a kid show. Oh, fuck,
3 (1h 5m 52s):
No, no, no, I did. I did, no. I did a pipe dream. I missed the line. Kelly Craven, Kelly Craven did the yellow boat.
2 (1h 6m 4s):
That was my favorite
3 (1h 6m 8s):
Dream is still one of my favorite shows I've ever done. It's still, it's still actually the most difficult show I've ever called in my career because it was like a 40 to 45 minutes long, but there were over 400 cues in it. And so cause cause of David, Swayze's amazing sets and Scott filed these amazing lighting and, and all that. So I parked dream. I hold in my heart like this is the first show I ever stayed, managed really, truly as well too. And, and it was just such an amazing experience cause it was over winter break that we rehearsed. So we were all kind of in this rehearsal bubble and Rick Murphy was Rick Murphy at the time, you know, and you know, the cast, you know that the four of them, Jen and Colleen and Mike, Don and, and Johnny, you know, we all just formed a little family and it was just super great.
3 (1h 6m 57s):
And it's one of the best experiences I've ever had still to this day.
2 (1h 7m 4s):
Okay. So we love to hear about disasters. Do you have any disasters?
1 (1h 7m 9s):
You don't have to name days. You can if you want, but like yours, because I, I, one of my things is like I've recently my, of my middle age years developed a stage fright. So like, do you have stage fright disasters or someone peeing on stage or barfing? I love to hear,
2 (1h 7m 28s):
I don't think that happens. Does it
1 (1h 7m 31s):
Someone must appeal?
3 (1h 7m 32s):
Oh, it must have. I mean, I've, you know, I am knock on wood. I have been fortunate that very few things have gone wrong in my show, especially in blue man, like half the time, the crazy stuff will happen. Other people. And I'm so thankful to have that fight, you know, like
1 (1h 7m 49s):
Nobody has ever gone up at, at blue man. Like, fuck, I don't have lines. No, but like, like doesn't know what to do next. Or like has a panic attack. Like that's my thing is like, no,
3 (1h 7m 59s):
I mean, I haven't, I mean, it's possible. I haven't had a show. Like The one thing that did happen once was during a video transition, a blue man had some stomach issues and needed to run to the bathroom
1 (1h 8m 17s):
Is what you're saying. Yes. It's called
3 (1h 8m 19s):
Diarrhea. Had to run to the bathroom quickly, get out of the whole costume and then come back on stage. Now the point of the show was the drum bone piece, you know, with the flooding CVP five. And so there's three roles, right. Center and left.
1 (1h 8m 34s):
Please tell me it was Jeff Brown. Was it somehow Jeff? Okay.
3 (1h 8m 38s):
Yeah. Japan. I have only ever done one blue man show together tire time. But so yeah. So the person who had the diarrhea, he only knew two of the roles right. And left, but the third person, the third blooming that comes in during the piece is the center blue man. And because he went to the bathroom, he had to come into central blue man. And he did not know the piece at all. That was quite hilarious of the other two. Bloomin' like very broadly motioning and moving to get him to, to play the instrument correctly. And that was a very amusing story. Everyone got a huge kick out of that.
1 (1h 9m 16s):
The audience, none, the wiser like fucking crazy,
2 (1h 9m 21s):
So crazy. Honestly like every mistake that actors make or, or, or anybody makes when they're calling in show, whatever we feel that it was so glaring. And so obvious. I mean, I remember being in shows probably in high school where, you know, I don't know they're doing noises off, which is already a very convoluted play and, and just completely switching sections around. And my mom had gone to every performance I get off stage and I'm like, can you believe it? She's like, why did it Ms. Gray? She had no idea. And she'd seen the show three times before. So it's just one of those things
3 (1h 9m 58s):
I saw it. I went and saw one job has gave us Christmas bonus. We're going to see Joseph and the amazing Technicolor tutorial. And so we went and at the end of that one, all of a sudden, like I noticed all the lights go out and the work lights come on, like for the big end for Google Joseph at the end or whatever, and looking, you know, and I feel the tech people like running around like, Ooh, something's going on? And what's going on. Right. And then during an admission, like I'm talking about my car. I was like, oh my God, did you notice that? And they're like, what? I was like, you didn't notice all the lights go out and then I'll like
1 (1h 10m 27s):
Theater, right? Like these are theater folks.
3 (1h 10m 29s):
Oh no, they weren't theater folks. But, but still, it was just like, really? Like, you didn't notice that.
1 (1h 10m 35s):
Right? Yeah. I love the story. I mean, we interviewed Joan Montana who said that, like he went up at, in Glen, Gary, Glen Ross, like wet up the opening night or opening night or opening night on Broadway, the dude dropped pages and that ed was doing a monologue. And then they, he just like, basically like made some shit up and they dropped the curtain and then he wasn't going to go back on basically. And then like, bam it. And Lindsay Crouse came to him and said, you have to like Heather, they won the award, the Tony or whatever. But the point is like, it is so anything can happen. Like, I'm just thinking of like, like weird shit.
1 (1h 11m 16s):
Like when I was again at, at an understudy at red orchid, we were, I was in the audience and someone and I was watching a show and it wasn't an actor, but someone in the audience was high on drugs or like painkillers and began to snore and like convulse. And I watched the stage manager watching me watching it. And we were both like, what do we do? This person was like, it was crazy. It's a small house. And I got up as the understudy. I got up and like went over and she like thanked me for it later. But the person was high on drugs. I mean, like, it was crazy. Like shit goes on. You can't control an audience. Is
2 (1h 11m 55s):
It somebody's job to watch the audience?
3 (1h 11m 58s):
Yeah. Task management. And how staff does We start? 10 o'clock shows at blue mans that back in the day that I got really rowdy. So we used to have all that paper in the show too. I don't know if he, like in the finale, we've caught people having sex during finale. Yeah. It's insane. Back in the day was back in the day, but
2 (1h 12m 26s):
It goes on the mind of somebody who chooses that opportunity to mean, is that, is that alcohol right? Right, right, right. How could I have forgotten? Okay. So you didn't have maybe some of the same problems or, or, or traumas that the actors did, but you weren't going through college. And, and of course this show is about surviving. And so what were some challenging moments that you might've had personally, or with the program or interpersonal with your friends that, and how did you, how did you survive? How did you cope? Yeah,
3 (1h 13m 7s):
Well, you know, one of the big things for me was, you know, coming to terms with my sexuality, realizing I was gay, you know, and you know, my first year and you know, one thing that I really wanna think about the theater school, one of the thing I think about is the community that we all form there, you know, like I might not talk to a lot of those, you know, to, to you and to all the people, but I, I still consider y'all family in a way, you know, like we all went through something that is specific to us and, and now it's gone because, you know, there's that lovely new building, you know, but, you know, I remember the Foursquare tournament south front,
1 (1h 13m 42s):
I swear, you know, who was fucking good at that was fucking Alex Scooby and lodgey those motherfuckers. So my God. Yeah.
3 (1h 13m 51s):
And I love those, you know, remember the Foursquare tournaments. I remember, like, I can't remember if it's our third year or fourth year where I think it was the MFA directors did a bunch of one X in the lounge, in the lobby there, you know, like the one with the monkeys typing Hamlet, just never like everybody was like, it was all around. And just like watching the laughing and just having a great time and, and the God squad parties and all the other parties. And I just remembered, you know, I just remember the community that we had and that's, that's kinda what I always think back on, you know. And
1 (1h 14m 24s):
How were you able to, who supported you? Like, how did you, how were you able to, when you came, you know, came to terms with being gay, like, did you feel supported at the theater school and did it help?
3 (1h 14m 34s):
Yes, I did. You know, my first year there, there already too old, slightly older people in the theater studies program, mark John, I think his name was Elizabeth. I can't remember the last name, but both of them were, were, were really, really wonderful people and really great friends at the time. And really kind of just helped me like, listen to me and talk through it. And then my second year, Jeffrey Hoffman, who was an MFA actor for their front desk, like he, he, he, he, more than anybody else really, you know, he was one of the first real out and proud gay men that I've seen and just really allowed me to, to see what that was like and just to be okay.
3 (1h 15m 22s):
And just, it is. And, and so it was, it was really through like that part of my second year where I really accepted myself fully. And it was just despite getting to know people who I hadn't known and listening to experiences that I hadn't experienced before. And while, while we were a very white community at the time, we were still diverse in other ways, too, that New Jersey.
1 (1h 15m 48s):
Oh, you're from Jersey. Okay. And so did you, was your family supportive of you when you came out? Yeah.
3 (1h 15m 54s):
Yeah. I mean, it took some time I didn't come out to them to my senior year, fourth year of college, you know, cause you know, even how to live in boyfriend at the time, you know, that there was, you know, right. But yeah, like my coming out story is really funny. So it was, I was, I went home for my friend's college graduation in may of 97. Yep. And whenever I go home, my mom and I would just sit at the car for, at the kitchen table, smoke cigarettes, talk and whatnot. And we're just sitting there and she's, you know, she's like, can I ask you something? I was like, yeah. She's like, are you gay? I was like, yes. And she's like, I love you. Don't tell your father, like literally the first words out of
1 (1h 16m 36s):
My mom,
3 (1h 16m 38s):
Don't tell your father. And then, and then I, you know, and then after we're done talking, I run a call, my boyfriend, I'm like, oh my God. I just came out to my mom and he's like, oh, that's great. And he's like, I can tell you the ad. It's like, no, no, gosh, no, I can't. And then my dad comes home that night and we're all sitting in the kitchen and he's like, Joel, can I ask you something? That's okay. I was like, are you gay? And like the flood works opened up. I was like, I can tell you, you know, just this, you know, just the father, son things. And, and then he was just like, listen, it doesn't matter. I love you. You're always, my son give me a hug. And, and it was the best thing that ever happened because it just opened up our relationship. And I love my dad. I love my dad more than anything. And
2 (1h 17m 18s):
That's so sweet when you were talking about the other people, Jeffery Hoffman and other people, by the way, we have to get Jeffrey Hoffman. That's a nice guy. Are you
1 (1h 17m 26s):
Still in touch with Jeffrey Hoffman at all?
3 (1h 17m 28s):
Oh, just Facebook friends to hold my hand and like Adam Matthias as well. You know, just like these gay men who were just living them themselves in their authentic
1 (1h 17m 39s):
that's for sure. Yeah.
2 (1h 17m 42s):
Yeah. He used to celebrate coming out day. But anyway, when you talked about that, it just, it made me think we always talk about representation in terms of how it's media, but we don't, I never really think about representation just in your community and people that, you know, and I mean, because you probably knew that you were gay before your first year of theater school, but you probably didn't have so many people, you know, that you felt like. Cause I think it, it seems like it must be a community that you, you have to see the community that you can then join. And if you don't see that community, then it certainly must feel unsafe.
3 (1h 18m 20s):
Well, yeah, I know it's early nineties too, which is, you know, it's like, you know, it's a very different time than it is now. You know, coming out in high school was just, you just didn't do that.
1 (1h 18m 28s):
So now it's like with glee and everything, it's like Kurt humble, you know, that whole situation like people are really, we, you know, we did, we, some of us did the hard work back then.
2 (1h 18m 42s):
I was talking to my son the other day and he goes, mom, did you know that? Like in the fifties gay people could not. And I go in the fifties, you talking about dude, it was like 10 years ago, practically. I mean, it really hasn't even been very long at all. And, and to think, to think that you were because you did theater in high school, right? The thing that you were a theater kid in high school, on the east coast, and you still didn't feel like, you know, it was for you to be who you are.
3 (1h 19m 12s):
No, I know I did. You know, and I did the thing that a lot of us did back then was like, oh, I'm bisexual. You know, before, before gay, just to test the water, you know, how is everybody gonna react to this? And then like six months later, I got a nod as gay, you know, like,
1 (1h 19m 28s):
Were you a good actor and singer? Do, would you say you were good?
3 (1h 19m 31s):
I was all right. I mean, I don't think I was great by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, singing, I made I'll show a chorus one year or two years, I guess. So that was five minutes. I did choir. I mean, I did act once at the theater school, it was just, it was a friend of mine in theater studies program did fathers and sons or something. And I was the father in that it was the most nerve wracking experience of my life because you know, doing it in this classroom with all these acting students, like here I am a stage manager, you know, student acting. You were probably
1 (1h 20m 8s):
Better than all of us combined.
2 (1h 20m 10s):
I'm not even probably. Yeah.
1 (1h 20m 13s):
So you, you, you didn't apply to schools as an actor at all? No, no schools. Okay. Even though you acted in high school. Okay. You knew you
2 (1h 20m 21s):
Applied to other schools for theater studies.
3 (1h 20m 24s):
Well, I put her, I applied for, so I applied to Carnegie Mellon as a directing major. Cause I thought I'll maybe go on to directing, but I'm glad that didn't work out. I don't want to be director and also applied to Hofstra. That was like my face school was Hofstra. My parents really wanted me to apply to Rutgers being in Germany, but I did not apply to one state school in New Jersey. I wanted to get out of Jersey and I used to have family in Chicago, so I I'd known Chicago. And so when I got the brochure for DePaul and my, I can teach at times like, oh, that's a really great school because at the time we were like the number three,
1 (1h 21m 5s):
Two or three,
3 (1h 21m 5s):
Yeah. In the nation, you know, the prestige of going to that school was great. And I think maybe because, you know, there's a theater studies program at that time, they were just accepting almost any that program. So
2 (1h 21m 19s):
Can we say for a second that it, that actually these rankings were all bullshit because right. Because I remember that too. I remember being so confused. I got into DePaul, I went and I told my drama teacher, she was so excited. And then, then a month later she said, you're saying DePaul, but it's DePaul. And I said, no, it's DePaul. It's, that's a different school. And she goes, oh, I've never heard of that school. Of course my heart sank. But honestly I'm sure it's a much better school now than it was then. And it's not even in the rankings anymore. So actually now that I'm thinking about it, what is the criteria for those?
3 (1h 21m 57s):
Oh, I have no idea. No idea. I don't even know where it is in the rankings anymore, but
2 (1h 22m 3s):
It's not even in the top 25. I don't think.
3 (1h 22m 6s):
I just remember the time the, you know, the, the messaging from the school was, was like, we're one of the top theater schools in,
1 (1h 22m 14s):
Right? Yeah. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say, and you know, like hearing you talk about the resources that we did have at the theater school, even in that crap, whole building, and then the theater, you know, the theater at the end, the Merle Ruskin, which was not a crap hole, I thought was really beautiful. It's making me think like, oh, maybe, maybe it wasn't, wasn't so bad. Like I, and not that I always go around saying it was so bad, but I just don't think, I think I didn't have a broader view. It helps to have a broader view of like our education as undergrads compared to like other schools, which, you know, sounds like they didn't eat.
1 (1h 22m 55s):
I mean, at least we got a chance to fricking perform. Can you imagine graduating from a fucking theater school and having never done a play like on a stage? Oh my God. Terrible, terrible, terrible. So anyway, what were you going to say beans?
2 (1h 23m 9s):
No, I, I was actually just going to say we're, I want to be respectful of your time. We're going to have to wrap up unless there was anything that you wanted to make sure to tell us about.
3 (1h 23m 18s):
There was one thing that I wanted to talk about was the auditions, because for some reason, the stage management stage managers were part of audition process through the private. And one thing when you were, when I was listening to a podcast that you were talking about that just made me laugh with stage managers would purposely sit in our office knowing that all the actors were stewing in the lobby, waiting for those contact lists. And we would purposely walk through the stage manager and office across the street to the computer lab, just to Reilly all up
1 (1h 23m 55s):
So that we knew it was like happening. Like there was discussions happening, or
3 (1h 23m 60s):
Every time we would open the door, like everybody in the lungs like, oh, and it puts you left. And so we purposely like go across the street. And we did that. We would do that a couple of times just to mess the message and that, that pops to my head. I just thought it was a funny,
1 (1h 24m 11s):
And you know what serves us, right? Like, come on, like go do something like what the fuck
2 (1h 24m 17s):
The modern, the modern version of the cast list is when I refresh our downloads to see
1 (1h 24m 24s):
It's refreshing my email after I've sent a query letter or a script to someone it's like, it's so dumb. It does.
2 (1h 24m 31s):
It's a cast list somewhere. There's always a CA and everything is an audition, right? It's
1 (1h 24m 36s):
Like,
4 (1h 24m 45s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Boz celebrates an important milestone, hoping for the best and preparing for the worst, when your therapist doesn't talk, when your therapist falls asleep, approach avoidance.
Main Course: We don't believe in resolutions, Danish serial killers, The Chestnut Man, skiing, Elizabeth Holmes, The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, Sante Fe New Mexico, Heder, control issues, Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, Cobra Kai, reliably good chuckles.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina poli-sci.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense
1 (20s):
If at all we survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (35s):
Happy new year. Let's just for a moment for 20, 22. Do we need to
1 (42s):
Please, please? Just like, I mean sort of just like, can we just, I really do sympathize with like, or relate to people or like, don't make any sudden moves. Like, let's just, let's just see how it goes, but, you know, and my mom used to say like, expect the worst hope for the best expect the worst, which is so indicative of why my childhood was probably so confusing. But, but you, you, because really you can't do both. Like I was thinking that we cannot, as humans live in that that's crazy making, so it's sort of like we have to choose and I'm going to choose the hope, but I'm not going to be totally shocked if shit goes wrong.
2 (1m 29s):
Right, right. I mean, I think maybe like an adjustment to that would be, you know, your expectations can strangle you to death. So keep your expectations in check, like yeah. Maybe, you know, hope for the best and, and, and know that, you know, it's just a hope and, and it, and it's not a guarantee. And, you know, so when the shit hits the fan it's, or maybe the better thing is like, everything is as it should be in any given
1 (1m 60s):
The real deal, it's
2 (2m 1s):
The real deal. Which, you know, I I've said that to a few people in my life recently, who've been like, Hmm, no, that's, I'm not doing that. I'm not which I understand. And I relate to it and it's a new concept for me, but that's what I'm trying to do right now is I'm trying to say like, everything is as it should be. And
1 (2m 19s):
I mean, what, what 'cause, if, if, if not, like, I think it's interesting because when I, I remember when I got my master's in counseling psych and I went to this, you know, woo hippy dippy school, and one of the things was, yeah, everything is happening the way it's supposed to be happening. And I remember having this conversation with my sister who was like a real and still sort of is like a social justice warrior type and like, you know, equity type. And she was like, that is not true. Like my students who don't have anything, that's not how it is as it should be. And here's the thing, here's the thing. I don't think. I think that I need help in any way and be of service in the ways I feel I need to be of service.
1 (3m 4s):
And what is happening is fucking happening in the moment.
2 (3m 10s):
You could
1 (3m 11s):
Fucking pretend all you want, but if it's happening, then it's happening. Like that's how I feel. Yeah.
2 (3m 17s):
Yeah. And it actually, in some ways you're better equipped to help things get better when you start from the place that it's happening. I mean, cause even just starting from the place of like, it shouldn't be happening. Yeah. I relate to the impulse, but at the same time, it's a little bit of wasted steps. They're like, you just go right to, okay. Well, it's not really for me to decide if it's good or bad or indifferent, you know, it's, if I can do something about it, I should.
1 (3m 44s):
Yeah. And I feel like, yeah. And I also want to say, and thank you for talking after our interview as well to be, but I wanted to say like a year ago today I was in the hospital. So I feel really. Yeah. So that was just, oh my God, it's bringing up all this stuff about like I was talking in therapy yesterday. I like my therapist. It's interesting. She doesn't say a lot. And at first I'm like, you're not doing enough, but she's the first female older figure in my life who has allowed me the space to sort of just talk and then she does interject, but I am so used to wanting, it's not even so much approval, but someone to step in and, and tell me what to do or like more, just give me their feedback.
1 (4m 42s):
But I think that she's doing at first, I thought, is she like, literally she dumb or like what's happening here. But I think that she's doing it on purpose. Like I think there is a method to her madness or to her, whatever she's doing, because it's allowing me to, she's not giving me any answers. And I really look to that for someone to take charge because my, you know, my parents did it, but like I'm an adult and that's not her job is not to take charge of me as a therapist.
2 (5m 13s):
I will say that it's such a fine line because did I ever tell you about the analyst I had? Who fell asleep?
1 (5m 21s):
Yeah. That's not good.
2 (5m 23s):
I mean,
1 (5m 25s):
That's not good.
2 (5m 26s):
That was fascinating. And it wasn't, no, it wasn't good, but, but okay. Now I'm going to argue against my own point. But even then it was like, okay, he fell asleep, like apropos of like, okay, this is what it is. When are you going to do about it? Because the, what I did about it as I left treatment, instead of saying, what the fuck, man, I'm paying you $250 and you're asleep. Right? Like what's the matter with you? Because, because that could have helped him too. Like we could have all benefited, but I just ran away, which is the thing I have done my whole life. And then I'm really consciously trying to work against. And it's hard. It's hard to approach where you have wanted to avoid.
1 (6m 6s):
Yes. Yes. And I, so she, she's very, she's listening cause we're on zoom and she's like, but she doesn't, it's interesting. She doesn't see that much. And we talked about it and she's like, well, what would you want me to say? And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I'm not even sure that it's, that it's a bad or a negative thing. I'm just noticing. And she said, yeah, you know, you don't have a lot of experience with, with older mother type figures, just letting you have your space. And
2 (6m 37s):
I was like, just letting you be
1 (6m 40s):
Also it's $8 a session. Like my insurance covers a lot of it. So I'm grateful for that. And she's so anyway, but we were, I was probably talking about that in therapy. About a year ago today I was in the hospital and how life-changing, that was for me and how lucky I feel, not so much that it happened, but that the team that I had was so non shaming.
2 (7m 6s):
Yeah. Yeah. And your health has steadily improved and you're in such a better place now, thank God. Congrats to you. I'm grateful that you I'm grateful that you, you know, survived that and that you've persisted and, and really taken on. You've taken on the task of whatever it is you need to do to not be in.
1 (7m 25s):
Yeah. Thank you. Also, is that the sweatshirt I gave you? Yes.
2 (7m 29s):
Is it comfortable? It is so comfortable. And even though it is a plain gray sweatshirt, I get compliments on it all the time.
1 (7m 36s):
It's like the best sweatshirt company apparently. And I like thick, thick, thick tassel. Oh. But what I was doing is that a baritone?
2 (7m 44s):
It is a bear totem that my mom gave me for Christmas. Isn't it pretty nice. Yeah. Totally. It's
1 (7m 53s):
Beautiful. Is it turquoise?
2 (7m 55s):
Is turquoise. Yeah. Yes. She gave me this and she, she gave me great gifts this year. She gave me a, I wanted a flat wi like a waffle weave robe. Yes. And I got, she gave me one of those. So
1 (8m 19s):
Yeah. I'm just really like, I, I don't really believe in resolutions or anything, but I, because I just, I don't fucking, I guess it's something to say, but like, what I am is grateful what this P I come back to it, what this pandemic has really made me grateful for is fucking my health and a job. Like, like I I'm searching for a job that has meaning for me to bring in to income. I don't know what that's going to look like, but I know that I want a patch of grass to call my yes. And that pandemic has really sharpened that for me and created that and like, wait a minute.
1 (9m 3s):
I, I I'm grateful for my health, which can be fleeting, as I know, and I'm grateful for a fucking roof over my head, it has really taken me to bare bones, gratitude, which I am. So which look wears off sometimes. And I'm like, oh fuck this shit. But I got to say like, this pandemic has really, and moving away from Chicago and starting a new life has shown me that like, oh, bare bones back to basics. As my cousin would say, back on my bullshit of like water gratitude. It's all the things that we talk about on this podcast. So yeah. Yeah. I'm in a much better place than I was physically a year ago.
1 (9m 44s):
And that has to be worth something, you know, like that. Absolutely. I mean, and so anyway, that's what, that's what really what I was saying in my, in my, in my, my remarks to you earlier. So what about you? What's happening? Tell me a skiing. What do you want to say about this new year?
2 (10m 4s):
Oh my God. Well, I'll say this. I ended 20, 21. Here's what I can say. I'm proud of. I'm proud that I tried something.
1 (10m 13s):
Yeah. You tried to, you learned, you took a ski lesson. Right? I
2 (10m 16s):
Took a skew. I took a couple of ski lessons.
1 (10m 19s):
It's fucking hard.
2 (10m 20s):
It's the hardest thing I, you know, here, here's the deal I want to ski. Not because I want to ski. I want to ski because that's what my family does. I don't want to be a part of it and I don't want to be on the outside. Right. And my husband was pointing out to me. Some stuff that I think is really true, which is skiing. Maybe like everything, maybe like every sport, maybe like everything just becomes this, you know, litmus test or roar shack or whatever for like what all of your issues are. Number one, skiing is for rich people. I grew up thinking skiing is for rich people. I don't do that when I was in sixth grade and they shut down school for a week. And they said it was ski week.
2 (11m 0s):
And I told my mom, and she said, what are you, what are you
1 (11m 2s):
Talking about? She thought it was a joke. And
2 (11m 5s):
All of the kids came back from their weekend Tahoe or whatever, the Vail and Aspen. And, and I'm like, I don't what, so there's that, there's the culture of it that I just don't relate to because I've never been a part of it. It's very white. It's very rich. It's very snobby. It's very, you know, but at the same time, like my kids love skiing. They love it. And my husband loves it. So I don't want to be a separate,
1 (11m 38s):
You don't want to be on the out the outsider.
2 (11m 40s):
I don't want to be the outside looking in, but my God, it's hard. And you know, I don't have any, I'm not, I've never played a sport before. I've never done. I've never been like into a winter outdoorsy thing. Like, that's just never been my thing. So I'm committed to trying it again. But it was, I mean, it was like a fucking nightmare. I hated basically every second of it, it was just like bawling. And I was, and, and here's what happened to me at the first lesson. It was going great and getting like, literally the very basics, like how to put on your skis and how to, whatever.
2 (12m 21s):
Awesome. We did that for 20 minutes. I was in heaven. And then it was like, okay, go down the slope. You know? And it wasn't like it was steep or anything like that, but it was a slope and they never really didn't teach us how to stop. And I w the second I'm going fast and I can't stop and everything that they have taught me, isn't helping me to stop. I'm scared out of my mind. Yeah, absolutely. And then when I get back up, it's like suggestions about how to improve my technique. And I'm like, but how do you stop
1 (12m 56s):
To just lay down or,
2 (12m 59s):
Well, it turns out it's very complicated. You know, how you stopped depends on the steep, you know, at the seat, steep of the slope, the slope of the, whatever. It depends on, you know, I mean, it's, there's this whole thing about using your skis to find the edge and you have to turn uphill. It's just, it's, it's a whole thing. It's a whole thing, which, you know, tennis is a whole thing too. But when you do it wrong, you don't Corinne down a mountain, 40 miles
1 (13m 28s):
On two pieces of plastic or wood
2 (13m 30s):
Or whatever. Right, right. Right. Exactly. So, like I said, I'm, we'll try again. Maybe not this winter,
1 (13m 39s):
You weren't injured. Right. Or
2 (13m 41s):
Thank God. No, but that, I was so afraid of that. I was really like, you know, because the thing is like, if you're young, you don't, you don't really have a concept that you could die. You could break your neck and die doing this fun outdoor activity. So I'm older. So I know that I could die and it increases the stakes for me. And it makes me be like, the very first thing you should have taught me is how to stop. You shouldn't have taught me one single thing more until I really know how to stop. And so the second time it was my husband, you know, trying to teach me. And he's a great teacher and he knows exactly how to talk to me and whatever, but I had already fallen so many times I was already felt so rattled and so scared.
2 (14m 23s):
I just, I started crying. I said, I can't do this. I can't do this. And to his credit, he made me, you know, as I said before, the thing I'm tend to do is avoid what I need to approach. And he like helped me approach it more. But I ended by being like, it's going to be a while before I can do this again, because
1 (14m 40s):
Yes. And I just want to say, you get major kudos for fucking trying. It it's fucking scary. There's a lot of body image issues that are wrapped in sports. Yes. Yes. Especially where you have to fall, especially where you might feel less than. And then like, if you had a different kind of body, you could ski better. People are always saying, bend your knees. What if you can't bend your knees? What if it's hard to get up? Like I have a whole, so with it, you did it at all. Just as a human being, let alone a lady in this world is fucking fantastic. And also falling is scary in nature.
1 (15m 22s):
Like the, one of the things miles, cause he's a skateboarder told me is that you, the first thing you learn is how to fall when you're learning how to skateboard, we all need to learn how to fall. And we never learned that because I think people are so afraid to fall. They try to avoid falling when it's part of the deal, just like failing is part of the deal.
2 (15m 43s):
That's exactly right. And, and I know very well that falling is my biggest fear basically because I've broken my tailbone once falling on ice. So, but th that fits with my psychology. So perfectly like I'm so afraid to fail. I'm so afraid to do something the wrong way that, yeah. So it makes sense that falling would be my thing. But anyway, Vermont is beautiful. It was, you know, fun for my family, which is always a good thing. And I watched the real Housewives.
1 (16m 18s):
Yeah. Which one?
2 (16m 20s):
Oh, I'm just whatever I just like, and actually the salt lake city went, I have to say for people who maybe like, they look
1 (16m 27s):
Crazy,
2 (16m 28s):
They're so crazy. And they are career funnels. Like this one lady is a straight up criminal. Speaking of criminals, Elizabeth Holmes, she she's guilty. Right. That she got, had feeling she was going to get off on everything. So I'm happy that she got,
1 (16m 47s):
Yeah. And for four counts and, and they're already, I can't remember who was playing her, someone's playing her in the new, and then a movie that looks just fucking like her, but I can't remember who it is, but anyway. Yeah, she got, she had, but, but, okay, so you watch that. Okay. So
2 (17m 2s):
Then I did whatever. Like I, I did, I did, honestly I did laundry and cooked dinner and did dishes, but whatever it was fine, it was totally fine. I was doing all of those things that I would do when I was at my house, but I was doing them in a different place.
1 (17m 20s):
Ah, God, it's so weird. But like all the cliche things people have said is true. Like it's important to be together like miles Doris and I were together. And like, there's a lot of, I mean, it was fine, but it was hard in that, in that it driving. I always forget, like, as I get older driving a lot is harder. Right. So, so, and I have a control issue, so I don't let miles drive a lot. So this time I tried to let him drive more, which worked in some ways and didn't work in others. Like I just, he doesn't go fast enough. He's not doing it. Right. He's I just, I have, I'm such a jerk when it comes to letting go and letting him, letting him live his life, like I just am and I'm working on it.
1 (18m 5s):
It's very hard. It comes out in the driving. So he do, he will drive. But he also to be fair, like the dude gets tired of driving after an hour. So it's sort of like, oh
2 (18m 14s):
Yeah, it's a lot on you.
1 (18m 16s):
It's a lot. So, and the dog, let me tell you something. If you don't have children, because I think children really help with this, a dog will show you also about what it means to let go and take responsibility for something that's in your care, but also not make shit worse for that being. So Doris, we went to this motel that she fucking hated the first night because it was loud. And so she would bark and friend she's, don't really bark, but she barks. And, but, but she, she would startle. And my response when she would startle would be to get angry, I get startled and then get angry, like Doris stopped.
1 (18m 58s):
And I really was like, am I going to have to sleep? And then I started feeling badly and embarrassed and like taking on shame that she was keeping people up, right. Just like I would with a kid. Right. And then I thought I'm going to sleep in the car. First of all, it's 30 degrees. I'm going to sleep in the car with the dog, this and then miles really talk to me. Thank God. It was like, listen, I think we're making this worse. Like I think if we just accept that the dog may keep people up. It is a dog friendly hotel. We are not breaking any rules. And I, I did what I needed to do, which was go to the front. Jessica said, listen, our dog is, this is a packed out motel hotel in Williams, Arizona, which is like super touristy.
1 (19m 43s):
So it was overpriced. And we're the shithole days in. And I'm like, listen, if you can put us in a different room, great. If not just know that like people may complain. She goes, the front desk lady was at first annoyed cause she had, so she was so busy. But then she was like, you know what? I'll just tell him to deal with it. And then the next day, when I showed her Doris, she was like, that's what you're worried about. We have a fucking Twitter pound German shepherd that won't shut up two doors down from you. We've got so I was making it worse. I was making
2 (20m 11s):
Yes. Oh my God, this, I relate so completely to this. And I had basic. And actually it's funny because that's exactly the thing I wanted to run by. You was just about travel. So the thing happened yesterday on in Virginia, that people were stuck on the freeway for 15 hours because something was shut down and people were literally in their cars, on the freeway for 15 hours. And I thought that is worse than any travel nightmare I have ever experienced ever imagine. But traveling with kids and dogs is its own kind hell
1 (20m 48s):
And travel with Wallace.
2 (20m 50s):
No, thank God. We're smarter than that
1 (20m 53s):
Now. But that was really smart.
2 (20m 55s):
And we're out of the cause of what it used to be about. My travel anxiety was always about being on the plane and a baby is crying and I'm just like saying to people I'm so sorry. And you know, and then there's people, usually other parents who are like, it's totally fine. And then there's people who usually are not, parents are irritated with you, but it's the same thing you take on the shame. You feel responsible. You get, you get flush with shame and then you feel angry at the person who's making the noise. It's a whole crazy thing.
1 (21m 24s):
Yeah. Go ahead. And well, I was going to say, this is really like, this struck me, someone I, I told this once to either a therapist or a friend and they said, oh, this is so interesting. And I was like, oh God, they're going to say something really deep. And they did, which was, I wonder if when you were a baby, you were allowed to make any noise at all. And I was like, oh my God. And that you felt shame when you were needy or doing what a kid and a baby does is cry. Like that's their jam and scream. That's their jam. That's the, and they're taking on for us. This person said what we wish we could all do, but they get to do it because it's quote acceptable except people don't like it.
1 (22m 10s):
So then they make it unacceptable. And that's where the shame comes in. So I was like, oh my God, Doris is literally doing the thing that I wish I could do, which is express myself when I'm afraid. And then of course I started crying and then miles and I talked about it and it was, it, it totally helped me to be like, wait a second, wait a second. What is going on? Because my reaction to Doris's like it, she doesn't even bark. She was like, it's not even, It's not about that. It ma it's something about me. So I said, oh my God, I'm making this into a whole thing because I'm having an experience that, that is really triggering.
1 (22m 56s):
So then I processed, I mean, it was a whole, it was lovely, but we got, we, you know, and I thought, well, we're not going to sleep. We have to go home. I was catastrophizing. The dog went to sleep. Once I, once I was like, okay, well she's going to bark. She's going to bark. I hope people get sleep. If not, I'll never see them tomorrow. I'll just sneak out. Fuck it. Right. The fuck. And once I was able to, like, we always talk about now, acceptance is the fucking answer to the fucking problem. I had to accept that I may not sleep. She may not sleep. Our neighbors might be pissed and that's just what was happening. And then of course, we all went to sleep. Now it wasn't great sleep. And then we realized, okay, we're not staying in a motel.
1 (23m 37s):
We needed a bigger quieter. And once we got this place, and once we got to Santa Fe and the fancier hotel dog-friendly hotel, but fancier bigger rooms, more space in between rooms, less people, she was fine.
2 (23m 50s):
It was fine. The whole thing was fine. Yeah.
1 (23m 53s):
And New Mexico is gorgeous. And we always think, I always think about living there and moving there when I'm there, but it was, it was cold. And, and the truth is, I don't know where I'm going to live or what I'm going to do
2 (24m 7s):
Well that you were in Salem for or
1 (24m 9s):
Toast. I love Santa Fe. I've never been to Telus people loved house. I've never been there. But Santa Fe, I love Santa Fe. In fact, I was gonna see Kristen. Oh yeah. But miles started sneezing. And I was like, no, because this was, I was like, I'm not bringing anything into these people's house and they have a child no way. And they have horses. And, but, but, but we communicated and there's for you. And I there's like an open invitation to visit her horse farm. I'm like,
2 (24m 38s):
Yeah, that's so sweet. So is it, is it expensive to live in Santa Fe?
1 (24m 43s):
Not more expensive than LA. I was looking at houses. We started looking at houses just to see it's cheaper than LA cheaper than California. So, but it also does get cold and it was 30 degrees and snowing. So, you know,
2 (24m 56s):
Take the good with the bad, the
1 (24m 57s):
Good with the bad. And I think a lot is going to depend for me on where, where, what I, what I want my career legacy to look like. Like if it's you and I make it, like, maybe we'll make this documentary. And then we get into documentaries. Maybe it's, I'm so open. I also really am welcoming change if that's what needs to happen, but I'm also at, and I just feel okay somewhat in that. Nobody seems to really know what they're going to be doing in five years, you know, like,
2 (25m 31s):
And he knows, and I feel like another thing that speak about things that got clarified during the pandemic. I think that that very thing of like, we're all just lying to ourselves. When we say this is what we're going to be doing next year. And this is what are we doing in five years? Which is not to say that you shouldn't have a plan, like work towards something, but it's also unknown. And so unknowable that it's kind of like, all right. So just make sure that what you're doing today, something that you want to be doing, you know, because like this may be the last day you're doing it.
1 (25m 60s):
Point blank. Right. And nothing. And the other thing that miles and I always talk about is like this, this period has really shown me that like, nothing is a panacea. Like I thought co-working is going to be the panacea at well. And then everyone got sick at the coworking or not everyone, but people got nothing is a panacea. There is no such thing like that doesn't exist in this life. And I think this period has really shown that, that, that the thing you think like you say is going to last is could change back on line or what's happening with school. Are you guys back in school?
2 (26m 34s):
We're in school right now? Fingers crossed. It does seem like people are getting all. And then it's kind of more, just like a cold if they're vaccinated. So it may be, you know, since all my kids are vaccinated, maybe that the school stays open and you know, in a way, in a way it's possible that we all had it. We didn't get tested, but you know, we had, people are saying all over the internet, like, you think it's a bad cold, but it's probably COVID. But the reason we didn't get tested is because the first person to get sick was our daughter. And she got a negative test, which I guess doesn't mean anything, but for what it could have been for us.
1 (27m 18s):
Yeah. And, and th the safest thing they are saying to do is just assume you have it. If you feel sick and just stay home as if you have it. And
2 (27m 27s):
We did, we had, we had the F six day period of being home before we went on our trip. And so,
1 (27m 33s):
You know, my sister, her, his whole family got it tested. My sister
2 (27m 37s):
Knew me. I got it. But they all
1 (27m 38s):
Got, they all got sick. They all got sick. And also Amber and her husband got sick. And there, you know, so everyone, I know there's a lot of people that are getting sick and it's not a moral failing and
2 (27m 54s):
No Susan Bennett, she just posted on this, but she got sick and she's been very, very careful. So everybody's going to guess what Aaron said, there's an, everybody will get this. Like if they haven't already, and it's changing from a pandemic to an endemic, and that's something that we'll get boosters for every year.
1 (28m 13s):
Oh my nachos. Okay. On a different note, I was going to talk about the things that I've been, what time is it? Do you have time to talk more? I have time. Yeah. The things that I've been watching. So I, I love that you watched real Housewives. We watched, what did we watch? Okay. So we watched an office marathon of all the Christmas episodes, brilliant writing, brilliant writing. That's a sort of an old hat, but what we did watch was I found it very profound to watch the original Charlie and the chocolate factory, Willy Wonka, Charlie, and the chocolate factory, gene Wilder, and the messages there of like, literally don't be greedy.
1 (28m 53s):
And also that, that movie is so weird. And he's so weird in it that like good people can sometimes be really weird and say things that are not appropriate, you know, like it's not a, there's not a one way to do, to do this life. And so I really enjoyed that movie this time. And usually I'm like this, whoever did, this is on drugs. I don't know what's happening here. And it's a fucking what is happening, but I really heard some messages in there, but also a Cobra Kai is back out. So I don't know. Do you watch?
2 (29m 26s):
No,
1 (29m 26s):
I never have. Okay. You've never seen it.
2 (29m 28s):
Yeah. Jacob watches it. He watches it like he's faced.
1 (29m 32s):
Yes. I could see that. I could see that, that it is, it is so nuanced and that word is thrown around a lot these days. But the writer, the writers are the showrunners whoever's doing understand the art of nuance and genre in terms of, it looks like the original Beverly Hills 9 0 2 and oh, the color schemes, everyone, like what our guests was saying, which, you know, every, everyone was on board for the same vision of the show. You can tell that the universe or world that they have created, everyone buys into.
1 (30m 12s):
So it's not brilliant by any means in terms of like, there's nothing profound going on in the show, but the actual actuators and the EV the team you can tell is like, no, no, we are fully committing to this weird nineties meets 2020 situation going on. And we're taking it fucking seriously. It's beloved. I switched them. Good. And it started as like a YouTube thing. Like they weren't really going to make a new karate kid, like nobody gets caught out. And I think it is true that people say that, like, if you believe then other people will find it interesting. If you're committed a hundred percent, you will have a core audience and it might grow, you know?
1 (30m 55s):
So, so I've been watching that. And then the Chestnut man on Netflix. Okay. It's a Danish serial killer show. Television show. Fucking brilliant. Wait, are you saying it's a show about a Danish serial killer, or it's a Dana show about serial killers. Dana show it's in Danish, I guess. No, no, it's Danish. It's a Danish. I dunno. It's a whole, it is so creepy. And also God bless everyone. That's not the us. The people look like regular people and the lead woman looks like a regular woman.
1 (31m 36s):
She's, she's a bit thin for my liking, but, you know, whatever, I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but she, anyway, the chess it's, it's about, it's about a serial killer in, in Denmark, in Denmark and brilliant. And it's the first. And so I think I'm going to stick for a while to non us shows about, because really I've exhausted a lot of the U S serial killer market. Like if I'm honest, like, so a friend of mine is like a playwright turned television writer, friend is just got a, a deal to remake, a Swedish show that I watched called header, H E R.
1 (32m 17s):
I don't know if that's how you pronounce it about a female band of detectives that focus on sex crimes in Sweden, but they've all got secrets. So I'm switching, I go done with American crime shows. So I'm lucky that 1000% I got really into India into the police squad in India. So I'm, I feel like there's, my eyes are being open to there's more than just American true crime.
2 (32m 45s):
We need to have a on our social media or something. Jen's weird rabbit hole picks. Cause you get, you get into some good ones. Take talks for bad haircuts, YouTube videos of, of people who have
1 (33m 3s):
Yeah. And people falling down like my whole thing too, of like, I'm not getting hurt, but I think it's what we were talking about. How like falling is the scariest thing. So if, if someone can do it not be hurt seriously and not be killed, but can survive that. And it's funny. I think we should totally celebrate that. Celebrate it. Oh my God. There's a really funny one where there's this guy who's like, I'm a amateur meteorologist just out unofficial meteorologists out here. I'm enjoying the snow. Look at the snow in the street. And then he falls down and he goes, oh, and it's the funniest. So that kind of thing is right up my alley. So like, I would love it
2 (33m 44s):
If there's and it's so like life, I mean, just anything that you can reliably get a good chuckle out of that's gold. That that should be in the new age of that should be our currency. How can you make me laugh? If so, I'll give you all my money. I need.
4 (34m 13s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plea cheat, or the cohost. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
Interview: TikToks about terrible haircuts, Chris Noth, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Jose Canseco, Ringling Bros Clown College, Notre Dame High School, Steve Smith, Oakton Community College, being the youngest clown in the circus, clowning in Japan, Piven Theatre workshop, Auguste clownery, Reduced Shakespeare Company, losing his wife to cancer, Sebastian Maniscalco, Second City, The By Your Side Autism Podcast, Yes And.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth from
2 (9s):
Eunice and I'm Gina Polizzi.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?
3 (31s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. Happy new year. Happy 2022. What is going to happen to us in 2022? It is truly a crapshoot. It is anybody's guess it literally could be anything with this could be the year of yet more plagues. We could have locusts. We could have cow mad cow member, mad cows. We have some more mad cows we could have just seriously like a Chinese throwing stars falling from the sky. Literally could be anything. So, you know, what are we going to do? We're going to hope for the best prepare for the worst. Is that what it's called? Is that what they say? Yeah. Anyway. So for today, for the beginning, part of our episode, we're giving you, but I hope you'll see as a special treat, which is a look back at some previously, what do they call it?
3 (1m 23s):
Lost footage. Is it footage if it's audio? Hmm. I don't know. Well, footage came from video in any case it had to do with film. So you have so audio footage. Sure. Audio footage back from the days before this was called, I survived theater school and we were calling the podcast undeniable. I mean, we recorded a bunch of episodes of that, which have never been aired. And so we thought it'd be fun to take a little sneak peek back at those old days that we recorded actually in 2020, the year that was, will live in and to, and we're gonna play some of it for you tonight. And then after that, we have a fabulous interview with our first ever clown, Matt croak.
3 (2m 7s):
So please enjoy
1 (2m 20s):
The wire is like a parental figure for me. It's the weirdest thing. He is so complicated, but also really true to himself. But anyway, I just posted about like that, those characters and that, and that, and that trueness to themselves is what I love about television. It's like this character is true to themselves. They're whatever that means to them. You know, like it doesn't always look pretty.
2 (2m 49s):
Yes. And, and television has the opportunity to show a lot more of the, the nitty gritty of the reality of a life in a movie. Everything. I mean, I guess if you're just taking a one slice one day in the life of maybe you could get down to that level of detail, but mostly a movie is just sort of giving a grand and often very positive spin on, you know, if the person is not as layered as they can
1 (3m 20s):
And it's not yet to be, it's not as, it's not as like it's it's. Yeah. It's just, there's not enough time. You're like, wait a second. We just had enough time. But yeah.
2 (3m 31s):
So what did your parents make of you watching that stuff?
1 (3m 34s):
They thought I was like nuts. They were like, you're making yourself scared. And I, and I want it to be like, no, you're making me scared. I, this is comforting me. You know what I mean? Like this, I didn't have control over, but I didn't say that obviously I'm a kid, but I, they thought it was weird. Yeah. They thought it was really weird because I would get into America's most wanted was on the same night as unsolved mysteries, I think. And then, and then once we got cable and or once it also like, kind of merged into like big foot UFO. Oh yeah. I got a two foot UFO's all that stuff.
2 (4m 15s):
Well, I think people who get into that or people who feel also on the fringe of whatever, the thing that they're trying to be a part of is right. And it makes perfect, right? Yeah, yeah.
1 (4m 27s):
Yeah. I left. I believed in big foot. I remember watching the California big foot tape that old 70 something, which is interesting. Cause that's around the Kiki time. There's that famous? There's a famous, famous, famous caught on tape. 1970. I want to say eight or nine in Redlands, somewhere in California. And it I'm pretty sure. And it's the sky. You got to look it up. It's the creepiest. And they still can't. They, they can't disprove it and they can't, they can't. And they're like, no, it's, it's a fake, but it is, it is the quintessential Bigfoot movie. It was caught on movie and film.
1 (5m 8s):
And I remember seeing that and be like, oh my God, that's real. That's that's real. And things exist outside of us that we have no, like universes exists multiuniverse is exists. That we are not approving the privy to, until we stumble upon it.
2 (5m 33s):
Did I tell you about the, when I first saw the warehouse that I lived in with Jeff and Rob and booklet?
1 (5m 41s):
No, but I thought of you the other day, because someone we live near a street called Oakland. Yeah.
2 (5m 47s):
So just briefly, you know, my whole plan to move to California after DePaul was with this person who I was calling my boyfriend, who was definitely my boy who told me like, yeah, I want to move to California. And so my interpretation was we are moving to California together and it was so devastated when he didn't want to do it. So on the quick I had to find a place to live and I don't remember why maybe I called Jeff because they were, I knew he was there. He was like, he was there. Who was planning to go there? Or he was there already. And he was like, yeah, we need a roommate. Do you want to come live in Oakland? Never been to Oakland in my life.
2 (6m 27s):
Never met, Rob didn't know anything about it. And so the day I'm moving in, my dad is driving me from Sacramento and he's driving a big pickup truck and we start to get into Oak I'm he already was like, Oakland, are you sure? Cause my dad's fucking racist and we start driving it and we start getting too. It's like first it looks pretty nice. That was a little scary. Does anybody live here? Because it was all warehouses. It was all that first wave of gentrification of, you know, people turning warehouses into lofts.
2 (7m 7s):
And when we finally pulled up, you know, inside, I'm dying, but I'm saying to my dad, this looks great. This looks awesome. My dad's like, are you sure you want, do you want to just, we can just turn right around and go home. So I get out and knock on the door, Rob answers. And I'm like, Hey, I'm Gina. And he's like, Hey, I'm Rob. You want to move in? I go, yeah. He goes, he goes, hang on a second. Next thing I know he closes the door and the garage door starts out. One of those huge roll up that you had to pull with the chain and I'm telling you, my dad drove his truck into our new house and parked it right there.
2 (7m 54s):
And I unloaded all the stuff for the back. And it was a big concrete box with a bathroom and a loft that had no walls. And Jeff had a sleeping bag here. Rob had a sleeping bag here floor. Yeah. And, and, and Rob's like, you can have that corner. He goes, don't worry. We're building walls soon. And we did, or they did went to home Depot, got sheet like, and Rob built basically us partition. So we at least had a partition to sleep in.
2 (8m 36s):
And I fucking lived there for two years. You leave that shit. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Two years. It was two years. And, and Jeff was Jeff practice drums like eight hours a day. I'm not kidding you. I mean, you got to respect the discipline, but he, he got up at a certain time. He went downstairs and he started practicing drums and he had, cause you know, he has that whole, very rigidly musical family with all that. And he, maybe it wasn't eight hours. Maybe it was four hours, but he did like drum scales or whatever they call for four hours while I was trying to sleep. Cause I was a cocktail waitress and I would get home at like two in the morning.
1 (9m 17s):
My favorite stories about you is you told me that you were quitting smoking and you had a bunch of patches on and you passed out, do you remember this? You know, you were okay. You, this was during this time you worked at, at, at a bar. If you were trying to quit smoking at one point. And so you put on, but you didn't, you put on multiple patches, nicotine patches and you didn't eat or something and you like pass out. And I was like, oh my God, this was during that time. I remember it. Cause we were living in Oakland. There was something with patches and like the things we did, you know the thing.
2 (9m 56s):
So we did and you know what else I was doing. Then I got into the worst codependent, like relations situation. I was working at this bar and this guy really liked me. Was he
1 (10m 10s):
Married? No. Yes.
2 (10m 13s):
He was married and he was so much older than me and I wasn't even attracted to him. He was c'est with me. And I had never experienced that in your entire life. And I kept being like, okay, I guess what it is. Cause like every other thing I've had, I'm trying to chasing some fool around this guy. Think he wants to leave his wife for me. He wants to, he wants to move us back to his hometown and Guatemala. He was obsessed. And I really worked so hard to try to convince myself that I liked him.
1 (10m 51s):
I think I remember
2 (10m 52s):
This. And then I couldn't get myself out of this with them. I had to quit. I had to quit the job and say, bye. I'm never running out. I did a real Irish goodbye. Like I know you wanted to marry me that I'm leaving. And I never looked back and I got a job at Yoshi's
1 (11m 16s):
That's right. Oh my God.
3 (11m 33s):
Today on the podcast broke, finish the clowns school and he, her first clown or hurting Ringling brothers, clown. And he's got a really interesting story. He now is retired from clowning and he's part of the
4 (11m 53s):
Shakespeare company out of Chicago. And we had a really fun conversation. So please enjoy Matt croak
5 (12m 4s):
Theater. People mentioned it. And then I saw Sean on it and I listened. That was the first one I listened to it for us. And then, and then that's how I heard about it. Okay.
6 (12m 12s):
Sorry. I was late. I was watching or I started, I was watching tic-tacs about people getting terrible haircut. That's the content I think
4 (12m 23s):
In truth, you are not late. We're all quite early. I was myself. I was reading about the third Chris Knowth accusation. I mean, you know, if you get accused like by two, just come on out and just do the cause S the trickling through it's worse. Right? Because he keeps, he keeps,
6 (12m 47s):
I mean, I can only know. And I don't know Matt, how you've, if you've listened to my episode, the, any of the episodes, but like that story of mine, how I lied to my boss and then it got the lie got bigger and bigger. Cause it's my favorite. Okay. So I worked for someone fancy. And then anyway, w and I had a lot of bosses and one of them was this woman and her mom called one day. And like, and she called and I was supposed to report it in the call tracker. I did not do that. So then she said, did my mom call? And I said, no, I just lied. And then she said, really? Cause she said, she called. And I said, no.
6 (13m 27s):
And then she said, really? Cause, cause it's just you and Kelly, this other woman in the office. And she said, she talked to you. I said, no, she didn't,
5 (13m 37s):
But what's your mindset right now? Are you going, I'm going with this? Or you're like, oh, it's getting close. I'm going to get caught. Or you're just like, yeah, no,
6 (13m 43s):
No. I like really committed. Then I dug in triple down the lie. And that was the sort of the Knauf thing is like, it's like, I couldn't let go. And it got bigger and bigger and bigger. And it like,
5 (13m 57s):
Well, here's the problem. And, and I'm not, I'm not all sports guys. I hate to bring sports into it. But people like the chase and people like the mystery. So when Roger Clemens got caught for steroids and he's like, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. And went on forever. And then when Andy Pettitte got caught, he went, yeah, I got injured. I took a bunch of stuff. I wanted to get better. And he kept playing baseball and nobody cared about Andy Pettitte. And yet still Roger Clemens, every press it's like, they want to chase because we were going. But didn't Jose Conseco say you were at that party because they're trying to, but weren't you with that girl who then said, just come out, be like,
4 (14m 32s):
'cause like, it will come out and you just, it's better for you to be the person who's in charge of, you know, to come and clean your own
6 (14m 41s):
Narratives. Yes.
4 (14m 43s):
Okay. Do you go by Matt or Matthew?
5 (14m 46s):
Matthew, but Matt. Okay.
4 (14m 48s):
Matt Crowe. Congratulations. You survived clown school. This is the first
5 (14m 54s):
And as a side note, it was my mother's idea. Just to be very clear.
6 (14m 59s):
Yeah. Wait, so let's start right there. What in the heck
5 (15m 4s):
I live in suburbs of Chicago, Niles. I'm at Notre Dame high school. I'm a senior three weeks away from graduation. They, they didn't really have a theater program. So, but I knew I wanted to get into some kind of performing. So my mom comes home. This is true. She comes home. She says, Matt, I heard that they're having clown college auditions for Ringling brothers to go to clown college. And I honestly said this to my mom. I said, mom, that sounds great. Good luck in the circus. I'm the youngest of five. I thought she's saying, you know, she was running away to the circus. I'm like, did you tell Brad's fantastic? And she said, no, not for me for you. Now this is, this is 88.
5 (15m 44s):
So, you know, Stephen King just wrote it like three years prior. I'm like, oh mom, clowns are outright now hard pass. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not thinking clowning, but I'll pass on that. And she's like, yeah, I know I heard this program. It's in Florida for eight and a half weeks. And I go, wait, hold on. You're going to let me go to Florida for eight and a half weeks. Oh, let's rethink this whole clown thing. Maybe they're not as scary as I think they are. So they held auditions at DePaul university. The director of clown college has a strong connection with DePaul. I don't, I'm not sure if he was a student, Steve Smith is his name. And he did a show in Chicago called kidding around, but college.
5 (16m 25s):
So we had him at DePaul university. So I saw I'm 18 years old, still at Northern high school. So we show up to the audition. I know nothing of clowning, like the bozo show, that's it. I know nothing. So I walk in and people are trust, full makeup and costume, right? There's a guy juggling bowling balls. There's you know, two guys snapping at each other on the corner of the rubber chickens. And I, I turned to my mom and dad. I said, okay, we're leaving right now. And my mom's like, oh no, this seems really interesting. We should stay. I'm like, okay, we're here more for you than we are for me right now. It's like a lot of people not in makeup and costume real fast to jump ahead.
5 (17m 6s):
What I didn't know that is that actually Ringling likes to shape their own clowns. So people who showed up in full makeup and costume were probably at a disadvantage because they didn't want the birthday party or they wanted their own kind of circus cloud. I didn't know that. So they didn't.
6 (17m 23s):
That was good. It was good. It was ignorance gets it and kind of say, it's the same with theater school. If you come in and you're like, I'm a fully formed actor, they're going to be like, oh, go fuck yourself. We want, we want to break you down. Oh,
5 (17m 35s):
And Ringling. I mean, we didn't get the creativeness is they almost suck out of the crane because they want it their way. Like this is so they really want to shape you their own way. So the audition starts and he just says briefly, he's like, I'm going to teach you this bit. It's comedy bit, some physical movement don't change it. Don't try to be funny. Just do it. And I'm like, right. What? So we did some pretty simple timing is everything. I am so glad I didn't go first because people went up there and sure enough, they try to be funny. They're doing things with their hands, trying to add to it. And I look at the director of clown college and he's just shaking his head and I go, I get it. They don't care. If I'm really funny, they want to see if I can follow directions. I'm like, Hey, I can follow directions.
5 (18m 17s):
So I just did what they told me to do. Did my movement. We did improv. I remember they put a chair in the middle of the room, walk in, do something with the chair, walkout. I boxed it and lost. That was my improv. So that's good. That's good audition ends. And they give you like this 12 page application. When was the last time you cried three favorite books you read? I mean really intense. And
4 (18m 41s):
The last time you cried, that was one of the questions I love that I would have.
5 (18m 45s):
It was really intense, like 12 pages and like a booklet, but 12, like all these questions. And so my mom's like, did you fill it out? I'm like, yeah. You know, she was like all over me, like homework. So I fill it out. I send it in. So now I'm like a week away from graduating high school. And we, I get a letter in the mail from Ringling brothers and I opened it up and confetti spills all over the place. And it said, congratulations, you made it. And I'm like, oh my gosh. So my mom and dad come home and I hold up my letter. I said, I got in, I'm going to cloud college. And my mom goes, oh, oh, oh, we should talk about this.
4 (19m 28s):
Oh, like she was doing a bit when she wanted you to go apply.
5 (19m 33s):
I told her, I'm like, well, you didn't think I'd get into cloud college. And then she's like taking deep breaths going, no, you're going, you're going. You're going, what did I do? You're going. And so, so I, I graduated high school now. I was going to go to Oakland community college. I already had a plan to great
4 (19m 50s):
College. My mom,
5 (19m 52s):
Where did she teach? What did she,
4 (19m 55s):
She taught English
5 (19m 56s):
Way. Yeah. I met my wife there. I may actually go, went back to, I love Oakton. And, and so now I got to tell all my friends, cause I didn't tell my friends. I was auditioning at clown. College is just the whole concept to me. It was still, I don't know, clowning it's so I'll keep it short this part. But my conversations were, wait, you're not going to open. You're going to, I'm like clown college to do what? And I'm like, you know, I'm not really sure. I'm like, well, wouldn't it be to be a clown? You know, that sounds right. I think that's what I'm doing. And they're like, but you're going to clown college. Correct. That was with all my grads. That's
4 (20m 35s):
Fantastic. They're like
5 (20m 37s):
That's three weeks a month. After high school, I go down to Venice, Florida, go in. Now they say 3000 apply. Only 50 people get in. So there's only 50 of us. I get clown college and I can go into more detail. But it's basically a 10 and a half week train, basically a 10 and a half week audition. And they give you full. You, you, you create your makeup, your costume, they teach you mind falls, you know, improv all these classes. And then at the end you do a graduation show. The owner of the circus comes. He sits down and you have a number on you. My parents came in for the graduation. You do a two-hour show. He writes it down the next day.
5 (21m 17s):
After knowing these people for 10 weeks, you go into the cafeteria, wearing a suit, not a clown suit, regular suit. And they come in, they read five names off. I was part of that five, another five, another eight, 18 walk in goodbye. Thank you for the rice. And those 18 got in the circus and everyone else went home.
6 (21m 35s):
Holy shit. Now, first of all, I have so many. It's just so fascinating. Like my question, my first question is, did you have to pay
5 (21m 44s):
No, no. Free, free. I should've done this. I think you had to pay for the hotel or no, you just had paid for some fees completely free
6 (21m 57s):
Fucking day. And then, and then, okay, so that was my first question. My second question is where the other people did you form bonds with these other clowns
5 (22m 7s):
You do and you, I mean, vines that I still have today. Matter of fact, one of the fun things of the pandemic, I helped organize a, a reunion where I saw people I haven't seen forever. You do, you do form bonds, which is why that last day was kind of hard because it ends in such a bad note. You become close, you're all working on this craft. Most people, it used to be to give you a quick history. You know, when Irvin Feld started con college, he said, my clowns can fall down. They can't get up. It was your stereotypical seven-year-old clowns, probably alcoholic, you know, just very, very poor shape. And he decided to do a clown college. And it actually morphed, which I felt was better into people, either going into college or between college.
5 (22m 48s):
And it became much younger, but they only stayed a couple of years in the circus. It wasn't that you joined the circus, you're in it for 20 years. So the turnover was a little higher, but that's okay because they had clown college. So then it just became mostly college people. I was the youngest clown in the circus. I was 18, but most people were like in their mid twenties.
6 (23m 5s):
Okay. That it has to be the name of your fricking memoir. I was the youngest.
5 (23m 11s):
And what's interesting. A couple, you know, what I found fascinating is that every Saturday they would do, you would put on a showcase, voluntarily, write a skit, try something out and you didn't have to do it. When the graduation came, they then told us they were picking skits that they saw from those Saturday night shows. And all those people who didn't do one went, holy crap. I didn't, I never did anything. You would then go in someone else's skit. So luckily I don't, I'll be the first to tell you, I wasn't the most talented by far, but I, Saturday night, I, I did something. I tried something out. I had three skits in the graduation show and you get writers' credit for all that.
5 (23m 52s):
And then we're, you know, I mean, we're talking basic clown skits here. And that really helped me. And that taught me a lesson of, you know, even in, even in an opportunity where three, you know, 3000 apply 50, get in. Some people weren't there. You know, there was still just not really trying to get the most out of it. And I lucked into that lesson. I wasn't very ambitious, but little by little one. Oh, I was picking up clues. Like, you know, don't try to be funny, just follow directions or, oh crap. I'm glad I wrote a skit because now it's in this graduation. So clown college for me was a really great foundation for kind of getting a work ethic and just a personal ethical, what it would mean to be in this field.
5 (24m 32s):
How did,
4 (24m 33s):
So the, how did DePaul figure into this? When did you go there?
5 (24m 38s):
So after I got, so when I, so I went to, and I could go back. So I, I did the circus for a year. I signed a contract that the short lived on a train, the whole, the whole thing. Then AF after I came back, I did not sign another contract. So I want to do second city. So I came home and I was home like three days and another quick mom's story, I'm home three days and Marineland calls me, my parents were on a cruise and really calls me. And they said, Hey, we have this contracting eight, eight months with Japan. Do you want to go? It's not the circus, but it's something else. Tell us by tomorrow or moving on. That's so Ringling. Right? Oh, my parents are on a cruise. So I'm calling, you know, shore to ship, trying to get my mom. She's on Dramamine.
5 (25m 18s):
Cause of the thing. Hi honey. I'm like, I think I'm going to Japan for him. I love your father's playing cards. Okay. I'm going to Japan for eight, my bike, you know, so I just I'm like, I'm going to Japan. And then when we came back after that contract
4 (25m 37s):
In Japan, if it wasn't the
5 (25m 38s):
Best job ever, ever, one of the jobs was that these big department stores, they're trying to rebrand be a little more Western, a little more friendly. So they hired Ringling clowns. One of the gigs to go through their store, big department store, you know, 20 stories high because they built, you know, high and just walk around and just clown in a department store. What I did is I went to the TV section at the time when you know, it was rows and rows of TV, I put them all on static. I took a chair from there, from the furniture department, put it in front, went to the food court, got food and ate food, watching hundreds of statics, TVs, laughing, pointing, crying.
5 (26m 21s):
I like 200 people watching me. I mean, literally this was my gig. I would go and pull the wigs off of mannequins. It'd be like a chew in the way it was. Oh, you know, it was a ma cause they're very proper. And so any of this improper stuff, so that was my, that's like the
4 (26m 36s):
Greatest job. Where did you live? Did you speak Japanese? Did everybody else? Did you have a group of X paths? Tell us
5 (26m 43s):
Everything. So I, I, again, fortunate, no, they stuck us in a very, very heavy populated Japanese. No, we weren't. We were actually not in we're near Tokyo, but not in the city where all the tourists and all that. So it was very, I had a, and it was great because when I first got there, I'm doing Kentucky fried chicken McDonald's and then by the time I'm there a month, I'm doing all the noodle shops with no signs on the, you know, just walk it in and just immersed in the culture. We did take classes to speak, but I was full immersed in the culture. And now I've actually with reduced Shakespeare company. I've been to Japan three times. I fell in love with it. I just love Japan. I love the culture I love, you know, and I know there's a lot of struggling performers on our COVID, you know, from when I was there, they loved street performers.
5 (27m 29s):
I mean, they get paid well, I mean, it's really, they love the Western culture of, of entertainment. Hmm.
6 (27m 36s):
Wow.
4 (27m 37s):
Okay. So then when you were done with your eight months of Japan, you came back to Chicago.
5 (27m 42s):
Okay. Back to Chicago. And then I w I always ha I knew DePaul, obviously, because I live in Chicago, I did start taking some second city classes, so I want to stay local. It just seemed right to me. I don't think I ever looked anywhere else. And so I did audition and it took me a while to get in with financial aid and stuff. And I live, I commuted, I stayed at home, so I just auditioned. And I, and I got in, so I got, I, you know, I got into DePaul, love this, this had, hadn't been 90, 93, 92, 93, something like that.
4 (28m 16s):
And at this point, were you thinking, okay, now I'm, I'm switching gears. I'm going to be a serious actor.
5 (28m 22s):
I was switching gears because I always felt even in the circus that the clowning would be more once I was in the program and I got the sense, it wasn't seven year olds who are going to be in the circus for 20 years. And it was college people, all learning their craft. You talked about the bonding. We all were kind of working on our craft, you know, studying Commedia dell'arte and you know, and, and the clowning craft, what really amazed me of, I think of clowning is birthday clowns. But once you get learned the craft, you go, oh, wow, there's really something to performance. And this conformance can leave here. A lot of guys were going overseas to learn, you know, clowning in Europe, wouldn't you, you know, Japan, it just, it was, it always, to me was a stepping stone to something else.
6 (29m 8s):
Can I just tell you that I just have to interrupt and ask, like the mask work, you know, how clown, like committee of RTA and stuff with the masks. So when I was 16, I did a mass class at pivot theater workshop at Evanston with, with, oh my God. Anyway, a famous guy that passed away, eight Quinn, someone Quint. Anyway. And that mask work that I did was probably somewhat, and I was 16 was probably some of the deepest, darkest acting I've ever done. It was not funny, but it was so Mo like, it was so intense because I had the mask on and it also taught me so much.
6 (29m 48s):
And I realized, oh, oh, clowning and mask work and stuff is like serious fucking business. Oh
4 (29m 55s):
Yeah. Harpo Marx will break your heart. If you wa you know, there's some real path us there. Anyway,
5 (30m 4s):
You know, it's a little bit of a rivalry, but one of the things that was fascinating, and I think kind of the joke, upper, they clowns where they can be scary. And I would never have known it is, you know, when you put on the makeup that you're using the muscles in your face, and most of these birthday clowns are putting a smile that reaches to their heirs. And it's freaking the children out because we call it a BA a busted ass looks like you got a big smile, but that's not how your face works. That's not how a smile works. So to use every muscle, are you a happier, sad clown doesn't work. You can be a character clown in a hobo, but technically your emotion will dictate if you're happy or sad, there is no, are you happy or sad? The situation will dictate if you're happy or sad. And if your makeup, we can't tell a Madison square garden from 30 rows up that you're sad, then your makeup's not good.
5 (30m 47s):
So you really have to focus on using the muscles and how does the black and the red all mixed together and really show what you're doing. So your facial work is so important in circus clowning, because you're not doing work at clowning making balloon animals. So you're in arenas, you know, hundreds, thousands of people. And you have to convey that emotion.
4 (31m 10s):
It's fun. It's the traditional makeup that you think of with a clown, with the red cheeks. And the, was that all just a version of what would they teach us? Regular stage makeup is for, to play to the way back. So you can just literally see your features.
5 (31m 26s):
Yeah. So you don't, you, you want to, yeah. So, you know, if it's too busy, it's too much of that suit, right? So some people like the white face, cause it's a very classical, you just have the white face. And I was a goosed where you did more, it was more expression, a goosed it's called you have hobo, a goose and white face, white faces white with, with some of the features, blue or red character as a hobo or something, you know, something very distinctive. And then a goose is exaggerated feature. Right? My eyes would go above my eyebrows, right? My cheeks will go stand. Not the, not, not it doesn't extend past your muscles, but it extends a little into your muscles. And I was more than kind of clown and, and white face is considered more classical.
5 (32m 9s):
You know, they're, they're a little more and a goose is more mischievous. I, I kind of like the mischievous character.
4 (32m 14s):
That's cool. So you go, you got into DePaul, but you said, I think you said in your email, you didn't make it the whole year.
5 (32m 23s):
Yeah. So I'm in DePaul and, you know, I get to Paul and I really, I really liked the people who I was with. And it's funny. I still, in order to in high school, I still didn't have any acting experience. I'm not Connie at this point. And you know, you maybe think stereotypical, you get into theater school and, you know, you feel what the air and you do all that for me, that really slowed everything down. I really enjoyed those exercises of, you know, walking through thick air or you're in quicksand. Cause I'd never really experienced that before, because I didn't have any acting per se. And so I was really enjoying DePaul because that's the best way I can describe it. It's slowed everything down for me.
5 (33m 5s):
It just, you know, okay, what does this feel like? Cause clowning was more me, but you know, how can I, but I didn't really get into what can I do. That's kind of me or not me at all, but still me. And so that combination was really great. And even the, even the, the regular classes where Rick Murphy would just have you stand in front of people and do nothing and just stand there. I found that really helpful because
6 (33m 34s):
That's right. I forgot about that thing and exercise.
5 (33m 38s):
So quick aside, my, my first, my first class at second city, when I went through the training center, I remember this clearly I would say, I remember it I'm up there. I'm very, you know, very, I mean, I get this and the guidance from the whole class yells, Hey, KROQ, stop trying to be funny. It's painful to watch. And I was like, oh
6 (33m 59s):
Wow.
5 (34m 0s):
I'm so Ernest, I got to do it. And it's almost what he said in clown college. Don't be funny. Just do the scene. The comedy will come. And so second city offs are taught me. I don't have to be funny if I'm just true to the scene, the humor will come. And if it's not funny, at least it's interesting, Nothing worse than trying to go for the joke and it doesn't land. And people are like, ah, it didn't really land. Just be honest to it. And DePaul. So in my short time really kind of helped me. I, I need slowing down even to this day, I need to slow down. You know, it just kind of helped me get it to another level.
6 (34m 39s):
You know, what, what, what, what is I learned so much from interviewing people on this podcast? And one thing I just hit me was cause in commercials, when I auditioned for commercials or television and film, there is a need to push because we want, I want to do the good work, but I love what you just said was don't try to be funny, just be true to the script in the scene. And even if you're not funny, at least you'll be interesting.
5 (35m 7s):
And I think it's more, I think the stakes are higher because if you're going for funny, it always, it always can go into chaos and you're just busy and busy. It's almost like, well, I'm busy, I'm doing something. But if you're in the scene, you almost are committing to a certain silence and a pacing that says you're going to come along this journey with me. And I'm going to slowly reveal my emotions. That's a lot harder to just be wacky and oh, I don't have to think about anything. So it's
6 (35m 36s):
Interesting to think
4 (35m 38s):
The things that like, I'm thinking about the difference between comedy that hits some comedy that doesn't, and really what it is is that you're there as an audience member and you're watching this person. So you've already agreed to pretend to suspend your disbelief, that this is a real person. And then there's just this very fine line. The person who's performing has either done something that is relatable and surprising and therefore funny, or, or the fact that they are trying to be relatable and funny shows. And that's the thing that we don't like. Right? Isn't that interesting. I never really, I never really broke it down like that.
4 (36m 19s):
That
5 (36m 19s):
I'm even Seinfeld. And I'm not saying, listen, Seinfeld huge. I mean, but think about it. You know, boy, I hate that airline food. That's sort of why, right? You're just saying I hated airline food. You know, OJ, when you pull us a sock out of the dryer and it's just one sock, oh my God, that's me all the time. You're just really connecting with what happens with you. You don't have to necessarily say I'm going to be some super being that's going to make you laugh because I'm doing something amazing. You're saying we are all together. And this is how I navigate the world. And comedy can ensue from that from either status or failing. You know, those are some of the ways.
4 (36m 55s):
And so why, so why did you leave though? Why'd you leave DePaul?
5 (37m 0s):
I get a call that. So I'm in like said it took me so long to get in. So I'm like three, four months into it only. And I got a call from some circus people saying, Hey, we're in Italy now. And Shareco Americana. You know, we're running where the head clowns it, this is Italian circus. We're going to tour all over Italy. So why don't you come with us? We can hire three people. It'll be a five clown. You know, I used to 26 clowns in rangeland, right? This is a five person more European. So way more stage time, you know, more, more to do, come on over. And I'm like, oh, I just got into DePaul. You know, I can't, you know, I can't go, went to Rick Murphy, sat down and laid it out. He goes, you gotta go.
5 (37m 42s):
You have to go. He said, let's do this. How long is the contract? I said, one year. So your contract, he said, finish, you know, the trimester, come back and we'll get you right back in. You don't have to audition what you'll come right back in. So I had a planned out. I'm like, great. I'm going to be able to do Italy, go for a year comeback. And I actually did that with second city. When I went to, I came, I actually joined three times, you know, and ended with the fifth level with a completely different group. So I finished it out. And, and that was hard because with my fellow classmates, like Sean Gunn and validating Val, Amy Bedingfield, we had some really great people that to this day, I go all that would have been fun to, to play in the sandbox with them a lot longer, you know?
5 (38m 24s):
So that was really hard. But I thought I'll be back in a year. Hopefully they'll still be here. And then I'll, I'll, there'll be a year older than me in terms of that, but we'll all be together. So I go to Italy do a month in Naples. This circus has been around for a long time. And for whatever reason, they started having troubles right away. Like Naples is where they make almost all their money. They're there for a month. They make all their money. They go out on tour. Well, nobody came out that year. So they already knew going into the year that they had no money. So we're three months into this contract and me and the new guy, I get called to the guy who doesn't speak any English. He says, I need to see you my office tomorrow morning.
5 (39m 4s):
And that's rare. Right? So me and this guy, Dickie truth, who I was with Ringling brothers. We go, they want us to do more skits. So we sat all night writing like seven, then we'll do this, we'll do this Western skit. And then you're on a horse. Okay. How about a golf skit? Okay. I'm going to build this.
6 (39m 22s):
Wait, can I just tell you to re-up that like, it's brilliant that that's where you went, because I'd be like, oh, I'm fired. And not only am I fired, I'm going to jail. I'm going to jail for something like I'll be in jail. So, but anyway, so you guys get all these skills. Yeah.
5 (39m 38s):
Yeah. And, and right. And like, you probably you're smarter than I am because we went in and met with her with our paper and no English. You're going home fired. Wow. Well, we'll be meeting me. So like we have a contract, like, what do you mean? Like, this is not heard of you don't break a contract. And I guess they gave us enough money to go home. I really, there was, there's a breach. I'm going to get a lawyer. Right. So not scary. Now I'm in Italy. I got no contract. I mean, they let us stay in the, in the, cause it wasn't a train. I was like, well, they could just tell us to go walk the streets. But now had a problem because now I had to go home. The guy who was with the truth, Richard Todd, he actually, he lived in New York.
5 (40m 18s):
He leased his apartment for a year. So he went to Prague. Is that what I'm going to Prague? You know, he had, he ended up sitting there 12 years. Mary talked like 12 years I come home. I got nothing. So I thought, well, I'll just, I'll maybe continue taking second city classes. I'm still only like 20 or so now I'll join DePaul. And next year, I mean, that was still, I really, really enjoyed it. And then two months later, another clown who went to Berkeley, they formed this company called the reduced Shakespeare company where they did all 37 plays to Shakespeare in two hours. And they just replaced two of the three guys and the third guy, the original cast member, Adam Long, he he's from, he went to Pepperdine.
5 (41m 1s):
He was going to London to be with his wife. They called me and said, Hey, can you fill in for eight weeks? Cause they, they knew me renew me. And I said, sure, well that eight weeks turned into 17 years. So I never, I never got back to DePaul because once I joined the RSC, it was only going to be eight weeks. And then the guy ended up staying in London. They opened up a show in the criteria and district criteria theater, sorry in London. And they ran forever and he never came back to America and Piccadilly circus, criterion theater, Piccadilly circus. And then I stayed, I was the American, I was the American cast member.
4 (41m 37s):
And you, you were touring with a reduced Shakespeare company for 17 years
5 (41m 43s):
All over the world. Yeah. All over the world. We did, we did international. So that's where I went to Japan. We did New Zealand, you know, Singapore, Hong Kong, Israel, London, Scotland. Then all of the states, we did sit down tours like Kennedy center in Washington DC. Or we did a lot of college towns, one nighters or just,
6 (42m 7s):
You are the only person we've talked to that has left DePaul to actually work that wasn't cut. That took a leave and never went back because you actually toured the world doing our, yeah.
5 (42m 19s):
And isn't it funny that I go, oh, I wonder if I would have liked to standing out a little more schooling.
4 (42m 24s):
The grass is always greener. You're always wondering. So you never went to college. I mean you never fit, you never graduated from college.
5 (42m 31s):
No. And even Oakton community college. I think I started and stopped five times because I'd come home. I would do something. Hey, do you want to go to Japan? Go to Japan. Came home, started something. Hey, you got an, did Paul come home? You want to go to, you know, Italy came home or do Shakespeare company. So I just, I was always trying to get school in. I was trying to get it in.
4 (42m 52s):
Wow. Okay. And then sometime in the last 10 or 15 years, you had a traumatic event, your wife passed away and you wrote a book about it. So can you tell us?
5 (43m 3s):
Yeah, so that was so I'm in the middle of touring and this would be in 2008 and at the time I'll jump, start some and go backwards. We're, we're pregnant with our third child or their daughter. And I'm a week away from going on a tour. That's going to take me to San Francisco, Washington, DC. And I believe Pittsburgh and, and I, and I was gonna miss Molly's birth. I already missed my first daughter's birth Hayley because again, I was on the road nine months out of the year with Rudy's Shakespeare company. And I met Lisa who I met at Oakton community college in a theater class. I met her and she never questioned it. It was one of the reasons we got married. It wasn't when you getting off the road, like she came to Israel.
5 (43m 44s):
When I went there, when Molly was born, we all went to Ireland for, for four months, including Molly. So she never questioned it, but it was a hard life. But we, it was either that or break up. We didn't want to break up. So I already missed Halley's birth. So I'm kind of used to that lifestyle. And she did have previous cancer that we thought was, you know, breast cancer that we thought was taken care of and she was pregnant, not feeling well. So she went to the ER and they came in and I was on the phone with the person getting arrangements for San Francisco. And they came in and said, the cancer is all over your body. And so I literally said, Hey guys, let me call you right back. And among other things that were traumatic, that was the end of my performing career.
5 (44m 26s):
That, that was it. And I didn't know it at the time I hung up the phone and they explained that was in the, in the liver lung bone. It was everywhere. So I, we didn't know if Molly was going to make it, you know, we didn't know if Lisa would, the high-risk doctor said, Hey, you know, I don't know if, you know, if either of them are gonna make it. So we kept doing chemo, they found a Cuban that worked. Lisa was, you know, she was great. She's like, no, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna do this. We're going to keep it going. Cause they did talk about, well, if they terminated the pregnancy, you know, would that, you know, would that help anything? You know, I'd pick my wife and they should know it's estrogen negative, you know, maybe a couple of months.
5 (45m 9s):
So that decision and Lisa's like, well, that's not happening. By the way, you know, stick a needle in my chest, drain the fluid in my heart. Don't put me under, I don't care. You're going to do this. We're going to keep it going. So I took my cues from her, you know, and she was no, let's do this. So to add to that, Lisa's mom was also dealing with cancer and we moved in with her a year prior to help her with her cancer. And now she's in the hospital dying. So this is so I'm going at the same hospital. I'm going from a, from a baby doctor to up to see mom who, their wife amputate her leg to then go to see Lisa for the high-risk doctor then to go get chemo. I mean, my whole year was just, you know, in the hospital, 24 7.
5 (45m 51s):
And you had other children, other girls? Yeah. Yeah. Two other girls at the time. Right? A seven-year-old and a two-year-old. And so my 2008 was that Molly little miracle. Molly was born in March. Her mom passed away in April and then Lisa lost her life in July. That was my 2008. Wow. So in the midst of all that, my brother, which if you knew my brother you'd laugh, cause he works like Sunday night football and you know, and you know, it was kinda like always getting in trouble. He mails me this journal like three months into all this and says, Hey, I heard, if you write your thoughts down, it helps.
5 (46m 31s):
So I would journal while she's getting chemo. I would just journal everything, you know, because I had the mom and there are now her ex-husbands are now flying in trying to help last minute, which was not helpful. And everyone telling me, well, just stay positive. And my guy, I think it's a little deeper than that. It just, there were so many factors that were, you know, people wanted me to do and they would get like mad at me. Like, well you got to go back to acting. I'm like, dad, we're not even thinking about that now. And so we can't be a martyr. I'm like, oh wow. Not being a martyr. I'm being a parent. Like I'm trying to figure this out. And I know I'm jumping around a little, you know, it's almost like they were taking their fears and instilling them into me.
5 (47m 15s):
Well, something happened in mine. I don't want to give up my career. I don't want to give up my life. Like you've got to do it to show me. I, I can't. So
6 (47m 24s):
No. And I think that the thing we've talked about this on the podcast, Matt, and I don't know if you would agree or not, but like when I was going through, not nothing nearly as is like that, but like some stuff with my mom, my mom and my husband both had cancer at the same time. And then, and she passed away and the look in people's eyes was, oh my God, if this can happen to you, it can happen to me, but they don't take it a step further and deal with it. So instead of saying, they say they stop there and go, okay, but that's not going to happen. So let me now just vomit everything back. It's like a direct, you can see it in the, of a person
4 (48m 3s):
And who reads your support the most and not only don't support them, but ask them to support you by making you feel better about whatever choices you may theoretically make in the future. If you theoretically have the same experience. I mean,
5 (48m 21s):
Gina, it's funny that you say that real fast. It just jumping ahead. Years later, years later, I'm at a party and a friend of mine from high school comes up to me and said, and I, once, once Lisa passed, I probably lost 70% of my friends because they didn't know what to do with me. I think that that factory and I had a guy come up to me and said, oh, I should have been there for you. I told you I was there. And exactly what you said. I go, you know, I, I know you're going through this journey. I'm not able to help that. I hear you. Good luck with that journey. I'm not, I'm not there to help you, that you basically brought me out of your life. But I knew, like, I know it was nice to him, but I'm like, I hear you. My, I just can't, you know?
4 (48m 59s):
Yeah. I'm not going to do clean up for you,
5 (49m 3s):
You know? And I was friendly and we still kind of, you know, every once in a while chat. So then briefly, just so then my, so I started writing down and then after she passed, I had this journal and then people come up to me all the time and say, what was it like, how did you deal with it? Because I did use a lot of improv. I mean, I will say a lot of what I taught. I mean, improv not to be too simplistic about it, but it's not having a script and, and saying yes and things. So it helped me because you're not in control. I mean, people who really like to be in control, you go through this experience and you are not in control. You have to accept whatever premise is given to you and you have to go with it. And there are other people that are relying on you and you got to say, all right, how do I, how do I make this better?
5 (49m 46s):
And then that's a horrible thought. She's like, but this isn't better. It's horrible. And so many emotions. So I started to kind of just for my own self, just like taffy just started pulling it and writing out in journal form that nine months from when we're in the hospital to, after she passed. Not, not anything after nine, anything before. And then I finished it. And what I did was I went to Amazon and I found a bunch of people who review memoirs. And I said, I emailed him. I said, you don't know me. I said, that's the point? Can you read this? Because you don't know me if tell me if it's interesting. Cause I want to know if it's just, oh, this is really just mad. If you know Matt, it's great. And so they read it and they gave me a lot of thoughts and I shaped and I ended up self publishing it because they can't make, it said, no, no, I don't know you.
5 (50m 30s):
And this is interesting. This is what you're saying is very straightforward. This is what you went through, right. With two people dying of cancer and a baby on the way, all the stuff she's like, they're like I followed it. So I just self published and into a book.
4 (50m 42s):
Wow. So, and you did that at the same time as you're raising three children by yourself.
5 (50m 49s):
Yeah. Well at that, yeah. Th no, at that time to jump a little bit, I waited, I was doing all of it, but then I was at Lutheran general hospital in the kids were in the good morning program, which I believe in that I go back, I think it's a play on words. Good morning. And I'm like, Are we really doing puns at
4 (51m 14s):
The
5 (51m 14s):
Death of a parent? So I did that. And my three girls met three other girls and they're like, oh, their dad died of brain cancer. And they're just like us. They're the three daughters. So I talked to the mom a little bit and then we would all go out and kind of formed a group. And then, and then one night it all kind of fell apart. And Cheryl and I were the only ones I'm like, well, I got sit her. It's like, I got to sit her. And we just had dinner and talked about, you know, cancer and how they binged on sugar the final days and how they turn on you, which is really difficult because they're bingeing on sugar, they're dying and you're trying to help them. And they're like, you're, you're blocking me. And they're yelling at you and you're you feel horrible cause you have to try to get them to live. And yet they know they just want to comfort themselves and all that shared experience and the waiter kept like we did, you know, the service is really good or the waiter was like, I gotta go back to that table.
5 (52m 2s):
I got to hear this conversation is beyond interesting. And then we dated and then we Brady botched it and married like a year later and six daughters and live in park Ridge, Illinois.
4 (52m 17s):
Great. Yes. And moment you're like, okay. Yeah, this is the given circumstances. And for her to w we, we lost our life partners. We have these three children
5 (52m 28s):
And I'm a big fan of, I know semantics. I'm a big fan of words. It's not moving on. I don't, you know, I, I do think we have a responsibility for people who, you know, let's take the widows and widowers. I think I had to talk about myself. I think I had a responsibility to help people understand, because they did say things that would just drive you crazy. So I try to educate and it's not moving on. You're evolving. I never, you know, even to this day I bought their dad was in the army. I bought a, a frame to put his flag in and we display it probably in the living room. Right. We, we talk about, I, I tell them now as they're teenagers, you know, your dad would be so proud of you, you know, I'm just here to help. I'm not here to replace you. Don't move on. You, you evolve.
5 (53m 9s):
They're not here with you. You can't, it's just, it's complicated, but it's not as simple as move on. So when we got married, we weren't over what happened nor do I want to be or ever be. Right. We decided to evolve into something and let's see where this goes.
6 (53m 26s):
Amazing. So you didn't know that that was going to mark the end of your performing career, but it did. So then when did you pivot to,
5 (53m 36s):
Well, I underestimated how difficult being creative would be. I, I, I will, you know, I will say, I probably thought it would be. I knew that I had a new path. Right. I knew that I was very fortunate to travel the world and have all my experience and be in the circus. Then I went, well, all right, that was then this is now. But I really struggled with, with what was happening next and, you know, for any artists out there and just keep, I know pandemic, keep doing it because it really is fulfilling. And I, and I, I miss it and I, I should have done more to answer your question. A buddy of mine from Notre Dame after a year after Alisa passed away, he said, Hey, look, we're starting an autism center in this place called dairy and Burr Ridge, Illinois.
5 (54m 24s):
We need someone to help build furniture. There's only four employees that may last 30 minutes and it was a bit of a drive, but I said, sure. He's like, you're good at talking to people. You can be at the front desk, help build insurance. And that was in 2009. I'm still there. We have 12 centers over 600 employees. We're building another center in Oak Brook this year, two centers in Georgia. So I'm the director now, client relations. And one thing I was able to do was like three years ago, four or five years ago, I went to and said, we should have a podcast. And they went, we don't know what that is. And we don't understand it. I'm like, I'll make one. So I interview therapists, I interview authors.
5 (55m 6s):
I interview parents. What's it like to have a child on the spectrum? So that, and as a director, client relations, that helps me give that out to parents. And obviously it doesn't just go to our parents and I all over. So that helps the book helped. But then when the book was over, I went, what next? Right. But I'm not going to lie. I struggled with,
6 (55m 23s):
Yeah. So it sounds like let's talk about that because that's, I think a lot of people, including myself there, I went through a period where, when I was a therapist, I, I was literally doing nothing that I felt was fulfilling my creative itch. And it was, I got really depressed and I got really, I didn't even know what was happening. Like I started to feel like, so I guess my question for both of you is do you think that it being an artist and being creative is something that's in our DNA that we must express somehow or we'll get very depressed? Or do you think that you can cover it up with other types of things?
5 (56m 7s):
I think, I think it's organic. You know, when I was sensitive to finish the book with Cheryl and, and I said, she says, why, why do you have to get out there? It was a fair question. Are you trying to relive the past? But no, I'm not trying to relive the past. And I said, you know, show, it's weird. It's like, it's, it's like calling me, like finish this. Like you finished this project like last week. It's something that was just, it felt right to do. And so I think if you see the world and you have anyone who has a vision or a thought or a plan, that's a gift. Right. And I think it's hard to sit on those gifts.
5 (56m 48s):
And I think I look at things and go, oh boy, that'd be great. If it was done like this or a boy that could be, if it could be done like this. And that's where I go back to craft. And I, the farther I've gotten away from performing even more do I respect craft and for my daughter who now wants to get into it a little bit, I'm talking about it. You know, I just listened to an interview at Penn and teller Penn. Who's a clown college graduate, right? He's in Vegas, he's got more money than dirt. He's been doing all these shows. He did an interview and it was so refreshing. He was on this interview. He's like, oh my gosh, I love my Vegas show. I know more now than I've ever known. I'm doing my best work right now. Me and Tyler, we are connecting.
5 (57m 30s):
Here's the guy that's been doing it forever. And you can hear how excited he is, how good he's doing. And I went, that's craft, that's someone who's in it because they love it. And they see it and that will keep them going.
4 (57m 41s):
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Hmm. I don't think I was ever really making that distinction before, but that, that's very interesting to answer your question about, I mean, I, I I've, I've asked late, sometimes I say, yes, it's in your DNA, but then I look at what you and I were trying to get acting, which is pay attention to me. You know, which came from our, from our upbringing. I, what I know is it got informed in me very early that I wanted to perform. And that I was very depressed for the years that I wasn't in any way involved.
4 (58m 22s):
And I think I told you, like, I couldn't see a play. I couldn't, I barely wanted to watch TV or film. It was all just so I had such terrible envy of people who were doing that. Now I don't have necessarily envy because I'm, I'm doing this, but of course now I just want something. I want more as well more. And, and Sean Gunn said this, we did a part two with him last week. No matter how much you work, you want to work more. You want to be doing it all the time. You want to be on the stage all the time or doing the, the movie all of the time. And the days off are not fun.
4 (59m 2s):
That, I mean, maybe you're tired and you need to relax, but it's, it's one of these beasts that the more you feed it, the bigger, it grows in a weird kind of way for you buzzy. Right? I feel like, yeah. I feel like now I'm at a stage where I am open
6 (59m 22s):
To the idea that it, it may look differently than I thought when I was younger in terms of being a creative, however, I must be doing something creative in my life, because like you said, Matt, I do feel one of my gifts, whether it's acting or writing is being of service through creativity. But I don't know exactly at 46, what that's going to look like, but maybe nobody, not a lot of people know, like I don't have a set thing mat where like, I'm like, okay, my thing is blank. And that's what I will do. Like, you know, Penn and teller for the rest of my days will be my show in Vegas. I don't know what it's going to look like yet.
6 (1h 0m 2s):
And it may be a plethora of different things, but I don't know. So, but I do know that I must be doing something creative because that is part of my service legacy to the world. I just don't know what form it's going to take. What about you, Matt? Like, do you know what form, like what you would like your next creative thing to look like? Or is it happening already or
5 (1h 0m 23s):
No, I, I, I don't know what my, you know, do I have an act three left in me? You know, I'm 52, you know, I don't know what, what I find interesting is that in the pandemic, one thing that I do for a year and a half, we had to redo, redo Shakespeare company kind of reunion. Like I mentioned, also the con college one. And I have that every Tuesday for like two years now, we get together on zoom and we play seven card, hold them, Texas hold 'em. And it's just all these artists. And there it's been very difficult to watch my artist, friends, not working now I'm out of the field. So I'm, I'm working and to see the reduced Shakespeare company, not working and saying, well, how are we going to evolve?
5 (1h 1m 5s):
Anyway, it's even in, be more inclusive in, in, in, in, and do more with more diversity with the pandemic. People are going to want entertainment more than ever. People are going to want. You know, I listen to a podcast that talks about podcasts and they say that the creation of podcasts believing that are down and the consumption is up. So less people are making them, but more people want them. So what are we going to, how, and you look at what's going on in the world and people need escape. They need to hear things. They need to think critically. And they need to hear about craft and get back to it. So it's more important than ever that if you have a vision or you have the skillset and the desire to do it, but I don't know what form that's going to take with me.
5 (1h 1m 53s):
And at this point in my life, I don't know. I just, for now, I just have to go with what life presents me. Maybe when the kids get a little older, I five teenagers now. So five of them are teenagers. Maybe they get a little older, but right now, I don't know that animal. Well, we had an old pair, there were eight women in the house, eight women, we have a dog and everyone would say, well, is the dog a boy? And I go, it doesn't matter. Like, what does that mean? Yes, he is. But he's like, who cares? It's like, that's a victory. Like, Let's go, let's go have a cigar. Like, well, what are you talking?
6 (1h 2m 30s):
That's hilarious. Also, I wait, before I forget, I was like, oh, I was going to say, what if your, your, your next act, what if it is going back to the theater school? What if you enrolled at the fucking theater?
4 (1h 2m 42s):
The pool that, I mean, technically the stands you wouldn't even have to audition. Wow. Well, wait. So I have a question about, since you're talking about podcasts, Arthur, clown, podcasts, clown centered podcasts. I don't
5 (1h 3m 7s):
Think that's a great question. I not
4 (1h 3m 9s):
Circus podcasts. That could be an avenue for you. I don't know. I mean, here's the thing, like people have such a, one dimensional understanding for the most part about clowning people, mostly don't know how many centuries old it is and what the origins and how really vital the jester. I don't know if gestures are considered clowns, but how vital the just gesture was to court life, et cetera, et cetera. I think it would be interesting to do kind of like a deep dive into, I mean, and you can personalize it, make it about you and your story and the people that you know, but you know, some, I mean, because honestly, like we're all such clown. Everybody is wearing a mask through life.
4 (1h 3m 50s):
Everybody is doing the bit that they think is going to get them love and affection and attention. We're all just doing it without makeup and big shoes.
5 (1h 4m 0s):
Well, and, and Clowney, and you kinda mentioned, Clowney is, what's interesting about clowning is one of those art forms that you say it and you think of something completely different. And then when you do it, you go, oh, right. I mean, the Marx brothers were doing clowning, you know, better than, you know, Sebastian Maniscalco, you know, his standup, I think has a lot of clowning in it. If you see him, he's a standup from Arlington Heights. Yeah. He's very physical, lots of, lot of movement. I mean, movement and clowning and dance are so integrated. It's like, oh, balloon animals, birthday parties, no it's movement. It's, it's dance. It's facial expression, you know, it's, you know, it's actually, you know, less mask, more extension, get out of who you are just in bigger form, which is a different art forum and saying, I'm going to be something else you typically want to, unless you're a character, you want to be yourself, but even amplified.
5 (1h 4m 56s):
So
6 (1h 4m 59s):
Which could get into tricky territory in terms of like being, having your, you know, people talk about method acting, but like, what if your clown like, could take over? Like, what if you're, I mean, obviously we got to joker and stuff and that whole situation in terms of that, but like, did you, do you see people lose themselves and they're clowning and become like the clown and like do weird.
5 (1h 5m 22s):
Yeah. So what you don't want it to. So I see them use it as an excuse, just to be not a very nice person. Right. That's you sure they go, oh, and let's talk about the joke. Right? The joke would be one where I'm, it's just an excuse. I'm going to kind of hide behind this, but it's really who I am, but oh, it's, it's, it's the clowning. So yeah, there's always, you know, and even, even in clown college, I think some of the most talented people in there didn't get a contract and they were blown away and I'm like, yeah, but you're, you, you gotta live in it. You gotta, when we lived in a train, it was a three and a half by six. That's what I lived for a year and a three and a half by six room. That was my room. Or you got to live in a room, you had to work with 25 people. You got to go city to city, you have to get along. And if that personality that you're talking about about, if it doesn't work out, then they don't want you on the, on the train.
5 (1h 6m 6s):
So luckily my experience was those people got, did get weeded out and con college and the people that made it on to the circus, that was a much healthier collaborative environment, which really, you know, was the start for me working, you know, working with, with people ensemble like weekly, second city. When I had audition first, w when I finished the training center, you have to audition horrible experience. Horrible, because the audition is all about making yourself look good. So you can get on. That's absolutely counterintuitive. Everything you learned in the class, because you want to showcase yourself. We should almost teach a class, okay.
5 (1h 6m 48s):
In this class, you're going to do improv. And all you're going to do is make everyone else look bad and you look good because we're supposed to follow these rules in improv. You're supposed to work with team. You're supposed to bounce off and then you audition and everyone's trying to get a laugh. And then you look stupid because no, one's finding the rules and it's chaos. And I found that a very unsettling experience because, and not that I'm naive, but it really, I wasn't trained for that.
6 (1h 7m 12s):
Well, it's gross. It becomes like Lord of the flies on stage. It's, it's disgusting. And it's also, it is it's counter it's counterintuitive. And it's like, everyone just wants to be on Saturday night, live at that point. And everyone's really to kill somebody to do it. And meanwhile, you've talked to people that get outside that live and they're like, oh, most of them are like, it was the worst. It's just, it's fog. That's the entertainment industry. But I think you should have a podcast too. And I think it should be called this fucking clown. That's good. Oh, I like that.
5 (1h 7m 46s):
Well, yeah. I want to address one thing real quick. And just when we go back to Lisa A. Little bit, you know, a couple of weeks ago, you guys were talking about having an advocate. I just want to chime in my 2 cents, especially on my thing, going through the medical thing, boy, do people need advocates? And if you have a loved one, that's in a hospital for a long time, nurses are amazing, but they forget, and they may be down on their medications and they may be. So I'm not sure. I like the, no one needs an advocate. Boy, do we need advocates? And especially, Hey, the, the circulation things aren't on her legs and she's been sitting, oh, I forgot. I need an advocate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just
4 (1h 8m 27s):
We'll have to end it in a couple of minutes. But before we do, I just wanted to circle back to your, to your mom, your, your mom really pushed to this clown college. And then she was really surprised when it was, does she have performance desires that maybe she didn't attend to, that she puts on to you?
5 (1h 8m 46s):
We had in our school and we still talk, I was just talking at a, at a party last week from some guys who I went to grammar school with our grammar school, which Catholic school was shut down for two weeks. This was back in the seventies and the eighties shut down for two weeks. And then we put on what's called festival and they would turn, we think about it. Now it's mind blowing. They would turn the classrooms into stages and they would build stages and like eight of the classrooms. And it would be so attended to Jim was the big show who got the big show and groups of friends would be the performers. These are, non-actors not hire professionals. And it went for five years. They made so much. Now it's all casino night and Gail up.
5 (1h 9m 28s):
But back then the amount of time. So not only were my parents in festival with their group of five friends in a show, I'm running lights as a seventh grader. You know, so I remember those days and, and there were totally, you know, my dad singing, you know, Jim Croce, Leroy brown, and I just would do silly things and people loved it because it's your own friends doing shows who aren't really performers. And I see Hayley, who's my 21 year old who now wants to get into voice acting cartoon and acting. And she started to take classes at second city while she, she would come with me sometimes to Springfield or Iowa.
5 (1h 10m 10s):
And they would let her run crew backstage, you know, as a, as a fifth grader. And she's handing props and, and doing all of that and, you know, went to Ireland. And now she has, I think a lot of it too, we talked DNA. I think a lot of it is experience like, you know how to use your and what you see, and then you thinking, and then you train your mind to think differently. And that's where the art comes down. Yeah. Yeah.
4 (1h 10m 32s):
Okay. Matt, where can people find you? Yes. And your book?
5 (1h 10m 37s):
Well, so yeah, I guess if, so, my podcast is very specific to autism. So if anyone is dealing with autism in their life, navigating it, mainly younger parents who are trying to figure it all out, it's called the, by your side autism podcast, by your side as the name of our company, right? It's same iTunes, Spotify, Amazon music. So buyer side, autism podcasts, and then the book is on Amazon. It's yes. And it's a lot of people confused by the title, but it came to me. Yes. And I have this premise, what am I going to do with it? Because saying no, and saying, I hate the world and saying, I'm mad at God that didn't it for me. I just didn't know what to do with that. So I had to take my improv skills and say yes.
5 (1h 11m 18s):
And now, so yes. And is, is the name of the book. Other than that, I park Ridge, you know, working in an autism center,
4 (1h 11m 26s):
Hit them up, everybody. Thank you, Matt. This has been a great conversation.
5 (1h 11m 31s):
I mean, especially now, you know, like I said, I miss it, keep going. This is it's so needed. And I, and I know podcasting and you don't get the feedback you should. I I'm telling you it's important. I know it may not seem like creating art and, and helping everyone figure things out. It's so important. Yay.
4 (1h 11m 57s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Sad for you that you're not in the neck. You're not in your little pod. No, I'm not saying, oh, you mean at the Al yeah. Co-working oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's a whole shit show. Like I, you know, it was interesting because I thought they're really lax about masks here.
1 (51s):
So, and I thought, you know, that's not going to go well, like the there's this thing in Pasedena where, and maybe I might be making all this up, but I think I'm right. That it's like a real sort of old school. Right. Wingy kind of a place. And like, and like, and like, it was a sundown town, so, which means, okay, so black people could not be out after sundown up until like 1960. That was literally a law. I I'm pretty sure there was a, like a law it's bad. So there's a lot of them, if you look it up online, there's a lot of these towns in, in the country, but like, yeah, yeah.
1 (1m 36s):
For, for, and they, of course, I'm sure they said it was for the safety of the black people. You know what I mean? Some garbage ass racist and they're not wrong, but it's only because the white people were killing them. I mean, like that's that's they were in danger. So anyway, anyway, that there's a trickle down effect, like yeah, for sure. And then I was like, oh, and I was talking in Spanish to the, to the woman who cleans. And I was like, you know, we were talking about it. And like, my Spanish is probably like at seven seven-year-old level, but I can glean what she was saying, which was her bosses told her not to wear a mask at the cleaning play, like while she was cleaning, because it made people uncomfortable.
1 (2m 25s):
And she was like, no way, because she almost, she lost, she said her husband and her kids all had COVID and she did two back in back a year ago. And so after that, she was like, I'm wearing a mask anyway. So now, so two people that had it reported, I mean, who knows what really went down, but two people upstairs in the w they were upstairs in like a suite, the people you can rent, like a legit office there. And so like, so it wasn't downstairs. I don't care. We share coffee, we share all the common areas. Okay. And then I started getting this massive headache and I was like, oh, like, but I always get migraine. So who knows? Right. And then my throat was hurting and I was like, oh, okay.
1 (3m 5s):
Oh my gosh. So I got a test, but here's the thing because of the surge, you it's, there's like, it's really hard to get a proper test, not a rapid test. I mean, you can get a rapid test for 25 bucks at Walgreens. The shit is like 50%, like right on. If you get a positive that's right on. But if you get a negative, it's a 50% chance with a rapid test. I was reading that it's that it's wrong. So that you think you're, you're negative and you're really positive. It's just like, we can't do anything. Right. Right. So it's like, so there's, so I did my PCR and I had to wait forever and that's okay in the car or whatever.
1 (3m 45s):
And then they were like, look, it's going to take a really long time to get your results because we basically, we thought we were done with this. And now I'm like, oh my God, they're having to scramble to get people and get people to read the labs. Yeah. Anyway, I'm negative. I don't have COVID praise Jesus. Hey. Cause I was like, yeah, but I don't think I told you this. My niece has COVID in Chicago. No, no, no. That's my cousin. Oh, your niece. Oh no. Mia. 17 year old Mia has COVID because kids at our school had it and got were, and she was, I think, got it from them.
1 (4m 26s):
And then now she has it. And she had, you know, it was scary. She's backs, but not boosted because there wasn't enough time between her vaccine. Okay. So she had a fever of 103.5 Bakst with this variant it's it's the variant. And they think, I think I remember telling me when you were in Chicago and, and she was hanging out with her friends and you were like, I can't really hang out inside with you because you've been just, they just teenagers and they don't, you know, they don't give a shit. Understandably. They're thinking about college and like, you know, she, she she's D anyway, it's not shocking that she got it.
1 (5m 10s):
Also Evanston, you know, my Alma mater Evanston township high school had 120 students in one day after Thanksgiving, get COVID test positive for COVID. Wow. So they're there. They're back online. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm just waiting for that to happen here. I'm sure it's going to happen at any point. All right. So I'm healthy. I'm healthy. I'm I'm relatively happy. I, yeah. So that's, what's going on with me. How are things over there on the east side of the world? Things are cold frigid, frosty, bitter, but we just, isn't going to get better.
1 (5m 55s):
Desolate today is somewhat of a good day because today is the shortest day of the year, which means after today, the days will begin to get longer, which I've just like, whew, thank goodness for that. For a lot of people, people were sad and not even people with sad that the solstice is like really important for a lot of press, but one of them is that there's more hope after today, a hundred percent. Speaking of that, you know, I also notice that this is the time of year where a lot of people die, you know, because I don't know why. I've just always noticed that like the end of December, a lot of people die and somebody that I was, I mean, we weren't close or anything, but I was friends with somebody who only in the summer, I wanna say, found out that she had bone, bone marrow cancer.
1 (6m 52s):
Is that leukemia. I mean, there's all kinds of blood cancers, but yeah. And anyway, she died yesterday and she has, so I don't know exactly. Maybe she was in her early sixties. So young, young, her, you know, she has anyway, she was a brilliant writer. And yeah, last night I was reflecting on the fact that I've said on this podcast, I'm not afraid of death. And recently I'm like, Hmm. Right. Rethinking this. And I, and I, but I did say at the time, I'm sure it's just because I haven't really had to deal that much with it.
1 (7m 33s):
You know, like my own before I own home. But then my sister died and she left no trace essentially minus her two beautiful children and people just start dying. I just re I remember in, you know, when I was in my twenties and people who are in their fifties and sixties were constantly going to funerals, I was just like, oh my God. You know? And I, somehow I chalked it up to that's you, you're weird. You're right. Instead of this is just what happens now. Right. I'm not ready for it. I'm not ready to just have a bunch of people die.
1 (8m 15s):
I'm going to say maybe that's what it is. I'm more afraid of other people dying. Like I, okay. Let's unpack this in the last month. I've been afraid of you dying three times and they're serious way. The first time was when you went to San Francisco and there was like this one period of time. I mean, it was probably like a couple of hours. Oh yeah. We were supposed to have a call. Well, are we actually, it's just that you normally text me back right away. And this time I didn't. And I just decided that you were, I decided that you went to San Francisco and somebody murdered you. Like, I, I couldn't be, I couldn't be shaken that.
1 (8m 56s):
Then when you told me you were sick, I was like, oh my gosh, she's going to get COVID and die. And then one other time, I can't remember the other time was, why am I, well, I mean, when my ovary, my ovary, when we thought I had cancer, maybe, maybe that's it. I don't know. Yeah. Well, and then of course, when you, when you had your heart issue, but, but re I don't know why I'm, I dunno. I feel worried about it. I must just be putting my worry about something else into my worry that you're into a fear that you're going to die. You don't have that fear that you're going to die right now. Not right now, but I feel really good, but I did, you know, it's interesting. I did see, I mean, this is going to be so crazy if I do die, but I mean, I will die, but because last night I thought, if I, you know, like I'm starting to feel really good about choices I'm making in my life.
1 (9m 43s):
So I thought, oh my God, if, cause we're driving to San pan, I was like, oh, what if we get in a car, car crash? And I was like, well, I would feel I would. I mean, that would suck. But also like, I, at least I, I would go out on a high note. Like my that's why I always think you want your whole family to be together. And like, you know, watch we die in Doris, live to fucking eat the dry wall on our walls and other day, anyway, wait, is she eating the drywall in your house? It's not the drywall, but basically it's the moldings around the, so I'm taping with white painter's tape. It's not good. When we leave here, whenever we get a house, it's going to be like, they're gonna be like, you owe us your security deposit.
1 (10m 28s):
You owe us $25,000, a dog puppy. Frenchies love wood. Like I said, we get her, all these wood sticks that are like fake wood wood. I don't know. But no, she wants to eat the molding. So we put her in daycare de Jesus on the cross. Okay, good. So if she, if you can't be in coworking, she can be in coworking. Oh yeah. Little. Yeah. I can't be messing around with that. So, no, I don't feel like I'm going to die. I feel like I feel pretty good, but I also feel like it was scary. Yeah. It was really scary to, to know, to, to feel a headache and a sore throat and know that people at coworking were sick. And then to here, I mean, this variant is insane.
1 (11m 10s):
It's insane. Everyone is. They were saying, I don't know if this is true. I read an article that said one out of every four, 3.5 of us is going to get it one out of every 3.50 M G. Wow. What a lot. And you know, I will just say, I will just say, I know I hate it. When people would say things like this, I'm going to be a person that I hate two weeks ago. I kept seeing everybody's going all these Broadway shows and every, and I'm like, really? That's that's, that's like, to me, that's just wild abandon, you know, because especially the theaters are small.
1 (11m 56s):
The seats are small. You're really crammed right next to the person. They're not doing the spacing out thing. And I'm sure everybody was wearing their mask, but still, it's just, it's, it's hundreds of people in one room crowded together, breathing in the same and also like crying and like all the fluids or laughing or whatever. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, so, and, and I, a couple of those people that I saw boasting about going to shows, I then saw that they posted that they have COVID. So, you know, I'm sorry for you, if you have it. And I'm not saying like, you're a bad person for going to see a show, I'm just saying, what, what did you think was going to happen?
1 (12m 36s):
Right. I mean, I think that it's interesting. Cause it's like the, what is it? Indomitable human spirit. It goes both ways, right? Like we're so, so dumb. And we're so, so hopeful, hopeful at the same time, it's just ridiculous. We've got so much puppies. We're still just dumb and haul super like, oh, this time it's going to be different. This time, the variant is going to be nice to us. Are you fucking stupid? The only job of the fucking variant is to mutate and try to kill us. I mean, that that's its job like this, just like that. So the way Aaron put it to me yesterday, he was like, what did he say? We were talking about it.
1 (13m 17s):
And, and I said, oh, every once in a while I say, I looked at him and I say, okay, so what's going to happen. Cause he's been right every time. And he said, you know, the variant figure it out. Oh my God. Like, I mean, I figured out COVID like, we didn't do it fast enough. He said something. He said it in a way that was really personified. Like the very, I just thought the variant is this, you know that in a movie, like he figured it out. He cracked the code and now he's unleashing destruction on the entire. Oh my Munga.
1 (13m 58s):
So I guess I'll be staying home for the next three to seven years, which is fine, I guess, because I have everything I need here. Yeah. My son said to me, I, cause I have a little cold right now. He goes, how did you get sick? You never leave. And I said, yeah, but you fools do all your germs with Jeff Garlin you talked about him on the podcast. That's airing today. Of course, this is Jay. I think we maybe recorded it the day before, like the day before.
1 (14m 40s):
Yeah, he got fired from his television show, but it wasn't based on one incident it's apparently and he bragged about it. He said, oh, this is from something going back two years. So I don't know if that means that he's been doing this bad behavior or whatever it is. I haven't been able to determine what the bad behavior. Yeah. There must be like a really strong NDA or like a non, because nobody seems to know like what the behavior is. And I, you know, here's the thing I was going to say. Cause I've been thinking about this. Cause I knew we were going to talk about it. It's like, here's the thing about, and deniability, it goes all the ways. So it's not just good things.
1 (15m 22s):
It's undeniable. If you do something that is, is reprehensible. That's undeniable to like here's the kicker like be undeniable means also like we hope that you take your undeniable city and use it for good. At least that's how I'm looking at it. But when something's undeniable, it's like the whole fucking Holocaust as well. To me it's undeniable. It just, it happened. It's the truth. And so if you're hurting people, that's the truth as well. And it's gonna come back, it's coming, come out. We are like in the me three of the me too. And you're gonna fucking get got so like, yeah. Yeah. And, and honestly, what's, I feel like the trend is people who are arguing with these allegations.
1 (16m 11s):
They are, they're typically saying some version of the same thing, which you know, reading between the lines is everybody's too sensitive. You can't make a joke. And I was actually really grateful for him characterizing his non-apology in that way because it clarified for me. All right. Here's what happens every time somebody says your everyone else is too sensitive and they need to get over it. How I interpret that as I am. I my need to say whatever I want is more important than anybody else's need to have an, a working environment where they feel safe.
1 (16m 54s):
You know, when people are casting all these aspersions about people being too sensitive, what they never seem to understand is they're being sensitive about that. Like, we're just talking about your sensitivity. If your, if your thing is okay, it came up. Actually I had a real life experience with it. Another thing about, about content warnings and this person, we couldn't figure out why this person couldn't let go. Essentially, the issue is he's a playwright. We had this rule. If you're going to put up your play and it has potentially sensitive material, you need to put a content warning.
1 (17m 39s):
Now, the people who are going to see your play have a choice, whether or not they want to check into what the content warnings might be. It's not like it just gets advertised. So we couldn't figure out why he had an issue with this because we're thinking, well, it doesn't affect you. You don't have to sign up to see the content warnings. But what he was saying was, I don't want to even write a content. I don't want to have to acknowledge in any way that there is something potentially. And I thought, oh, that's a kind of selfish as I've never even thought of. You're so selfish that you want.
1 (18m 19s):
I mean, how I'm interpret. It's like, okay, so you want people to be upset. You get it. I don't get, I don't get the logic. If your logic is truly that everybody needs to toughen up, then mana you toughen up and write the content warning. So bizarre. And also it's like, it is also, you know what, and I think this comes from, I always comes back to me to like family dynamics. So that is this case of your being drunk. They always tell the child you're being, over-sensitive, you're being dramatic. It is really always, always, always to hide some kind of abusive behavior within the family, totally.
1 (19m 4s):
Or, or maladaptive pattern, whatever you want to fucking call it. It's always used. It's never used, like you're so sensitive. That's awesome. Let's figure out how to never know. I was told that over and over and over and over and over and over, but really what was going on was my family was hyper, super hyper dysfunctional in a way that they could not, no one could tolerate talking about it. So then I became the person that was, so to me again, like you put, posted this quote, I think, and it's like, you think you have a secret, you have no secret. Let me tell you something. There are no more secrets in this day and age. They're all going to come out, whatever you think you're hiding. You know, I had a dream about hiding a secret.
1 (19m 46s):
This is really crazy. So I had a dream that I, that miles and I were going to have a zoom with someone, a famous celebrity. And I don't even know what it was. It was some lady, right? The lady who we needed help from in some way, the lady bailed or she didn't show up and miles. And I were on the zoom and we didn't know it was being recorded. Okay. And while the person was not there miles and I started talking shit about this lady, mostly meat, mostly meat. She was very powerful and I just was talking shit. But at the same time, pretending that like wanting this woman's help. Right. Okay, fine. So in the dream we stop that and we think, oh God, she didn't show up what a flake.
1 (20m 29s):
But we, I had, I basically talked so much shit about her and then we get a message from her. And it was like this faceless, fancy lady that says, you know what, in the future, you should really make sure that shit's not recorded because I heard all, everything you said to me. And I want you to know that you needed to just why you needed to just say it to my face. And, and, and in the dream, I was like, she's right. She's at, like in the dream, I knew that there was no recourse that I had done something that was not okay. And that it was a warning to not do that in real life. Like I have never had a clear warning. So now I'm like, you know, when I talk shit, I'm like, okay, well just know this shit is probably recorded somewhere.
1 (21m 13s):
Even if it's in the animals of the fucking spiritual universe it's being recorded. Well, thank God for your dream, because what, how I going to take that is there's a moment coming up in your life where you're, you're going to remember that. And you're going to make sure that your video is turned off or make sure you're not recording or make sure whatever it is that you need to do. See our unconscious can be so helpful to us. No, I took it as a, like a, I was like, thank you. I wasn't like, oh, that's so, you know, I was like, Nope, this is what I am. And I think it's, and this goes back to the Garland thing of like, fuck you watch what you're doing. Like the time of just blindly doing shit is over.
1 (21m 58s):
It's over, it's over. And I don't care who you are. It may take sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but the shit is coming out. And for Jeff Garlin, it's like, you know, this went on for years. So this is clearly a personality problem and a behavior problem that, that you've been getting away with. And now you're not getting away with yeah. It's being chucked up to either that you're charming or, or that now you're famous. So you're untouchable. Right. So yeah. So Jeff Garlin, you know, I'm sure you have nothing but good intentions, but I hope you learn from this experience that you know, you to sometimes have to make yourself a little bit smaller when other people, you know, feel uncomfortable with your behavior.
1 (22m 48s):
There's nothing wrong with that. You can go and be a big ass person at home or with your friends, but not all, not at work. And also the other thing that's really interesting to me about this is that just, it's sort of the theme a lot in my writing, which is that like, who good people, whoever deems them good. I don't know, whatever good people do, horrible things, horrible people do good things. We all do a plethora of things. It's a matter of how I believe how we are, hold ourselves accountable and how we hold each other accountable. And sorry, there's like a fit test at the, at the second and PM right now.
1 (23m 28s):
But yeah, so like the theme of like, you know, it's interesting because Jeff Garland made a huge impact on me in a positive way. Right. But he has now made a huge impact apparently on people in a really, really hurtful, negative way. So both are possible. And it's like, again, how are we going to choose to use our and deniability? And it's up to us. I mean, like nobody nobody's forced his ass to do. No. Absolutely. And it's gonna come back to me. It's okay. It'll come.
1 (24m 8s):
Oh, oh, I don't, as much as I want people to be held accountable. It's not like I blame them or it's not like, I think that they're, I don't know. I think people have the wrong idea about what people mean when they want people to be held accountable. It's not like boom, right. To, or it's not, and I'm not burning anybody at the stake and nobody's getting, you know, putting the stocks. It's, it's more just like, Hey, you need to pay attention. So I don't blame the people who are doing these behaviors because I know that they grew up in the same culture that I did where these kind of behaviors were tolerated. And yet it's still time to move on.
1 (24m 49s):
But I wanted to share with you that yesterday, I was looking for a Christmas movie to watch with my daughter. And you know, there's not, I mean, there's kind of a lab, like a lot of them that I would want to watch, or the old ones miracle on 34th street, she's not interested in that. So we picked one that neither one of us had seen before and we watched like 20 minutes of it. It wasn't good. And it was ma it's called Jack Frost. I think it's called Jack Ross has Michael Keaton in it. I don't want to say it was made in the late nineties or early two thousands that was before his comeback with Birdman. Right, right, right. Right. And honestly, it was like watching a movie within a movie where they were trying to show the way that movies used to be so white male centered.
1 (25m 40s):
Like I kind of forgotten. I mean, it's, it's the story of Michael Keaton and his son and Kelly Preston's in it, but she just plays that, oh, you guys kind of fly, you know, and they're in the opening scene is this big snowball fight. And it's all boys, it's all white boys. And I just thought, wow, it's been a long time since I've seen a movie. But that was our entire reality. Like every single representation in media was exactly the same time, like, oh, nonstop. I mean, the spec, I look at this period, it's fascinating that you say of like mid nineties to the, through the arts.
1 (26m 22s):
And I, I, you know, my, my pilot is about the auths really. And that was the war. It was like, look, it was, it was the worst in my lifetime. I'm not saying it was, it was worse than years back. But what I'm saying is like for movies and media specifically, I noticed that I noticed when I watched that period of movies, it's all white, all, all dudes and like not good. Not good. Not funny. No. Yeah. It wasn't good. Yeah. So I know I was thinking like, you know what? It is a good Christmas week. I think she probably is a little young for it, but is my old boss, his movie, the weatherman with, with Nick cage.
1 (27m 3s):
It's not really a Christmas movie, but it's a family. It's, it's so good. And it it's about a family and, and, and Michael Kane, right? That's the British guy he's dying. And he comes to sort of reconcile with his, his son who's played by Nicholas cage and he, they have a daughter who's a misfit. And Nick cage has a daughter with him with his, and it takes place. It's filmed in Evanston and in Chicago. And I worked there when they made it. I didn't, I didn't have much to do with it, but anyway, it's hilarious. So if, and it was written by Steve Conrad who wrote Patriot and perpetual grace, which I was in. So that makes it so cool.
1 (27m 45s):
It's really funny. It's fucking funny. And Nick cage to me is really great in it and really funny. And it's about a marriage that is a little old, but you for, for, for your daughter. But I think that it, I think you might really dig it and I think it might really do. I'll check it out. Nicholas cage is a fantastic actor. He's in a lot of highly underrated movies. I think face-off was a very good movie. You've in it. Really good. So there was a P it's interesting. He is such a cult for me, a cultural phenomenon in that, you know, one he's so polarizing. So polarizing in terms of, is he good or not?
1 (28m 26s):
And are his movies good or not? And face-off is brilliant. I loved face-off. I happen to love a movie that he's in called mastic men with Sam Rockwell. I love like there's some real gems in there and apparently, and I haven't seen it. Yeah. I haven't seen it. I wanted to make sure I was telling the truth. I have not seen pig or truffle, or I want to watch it. I haven't seen it yet, but I want to, it's supposedly amazing. Oh, is it okay, good. And also, and he's great. And leaving Las Vegas. He's great. And true rump, right? Isn't true. Romance. Isn't that? Him? No, that's that's, he's he?
1 (29m 7s):
That's two romances Christian Slater and Christian Slater. Okay. What was he in? Was he in something with Patricia when he was married to her? So that's why people , but yeah. Anyway, so anyway, all this to say, if you're listening out there, watch the weatherman. It's really quite a delightful film and I, I and heartwarming. So anyway, and Christmasy I'll and I'll watch it and I'll report back with my, which you're fine. We can start doing that. Good. We good? All right. Anything else? I'm trying to think about like stuff that I L media VR, cause I'd been watching a lot of like television, terrible television, but some good television.
1 (29m 56s):
And I wanted to report in, what did I watch? That was really interesting. Oh, the documentary, John of God, about the cult leader, this guy. Okay. This Brazilian cult leader that like took over. So it is the story of a religious cult leader who of course ended up sexually abusing all these women. And, but the way he did it was just, just brilliant. Like, I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying it's, it's master masterful, lefty, crafty, and masterful in his evilness. And like, so John of God was this, this poor dude from Brazil who became a medium.
1 (30m 39s):
And, and the thing is about Brazil. It was so fascinating is like Brazil has this history of these different cultures of like, you know of, I don't think they call it voodoo, but it's like the, the, the indigenous religion and mixed in Brazil with like Catholicism mixed with so key, like did a mish-mash of, he liked tricked him with his mishmash story. It was like new age. He hooked in like the white people that like new age stuff, he cooked it. And it was huge. He had this huge center and then, and, and he legit, they can't find a reason. They, he legit like healed people like, oh, wow. So it's a mix. And that is just what I'm saying about life.
1 (31m 21s):
It's a combo platter, like legit. He, they can't explain even his victims. Can't explain how they healed like one woman, his mother. Okay. But that, well, that speaks to the power of suggestion and people's ability to, to have more dominion over their bodies. And they think, remember I'm in man on the moon when Andy Kaufman goes to have psychics is not what I call psychic surgery. And what I remember, I spent a long time since I seen that movie. But what I remember about it was that he, you know, he was doing it as a bit.
1 (32m 3s):
Yes. But when he was there and he realized that the person who's doing the psychic surgery is doing the same thing that Andy Kaufman is doing. And that it's an art and that he totally appreciated it. I mean, he died if he died. I don't know if people still say it was a hoax, but he had cancer supposedly. Right. And then he had cancer. So, you know, like, and I feel this way about the placebo effect. Okay. If it works, that's, that's great. That's, I mean, it's just about what, where are you getting to at the end? And if you believe that so-and-so is helping you with, I mean, is this the kind of like Santeria it is it's similar.
1 (32m 44s):
He liked to do his own thing where he like channeled and mediums. And, but yes. And he drew in from that it's, it's just, it's fascinating because this, this like the character of, and she's a real human, but this woman who, whose mom had a brain tumor, so she goes, and, and, and she goes, and this sexual abuse happens to her after he supposedly heals her mother. Right. Like he does this treatment on her mother and I'm doing quotes cause who the fuck knows. And then, but after the treatment, he's like, I'd like to see you load in my office because you're the daughter I want to give you, blah, blah, blah, blah. And abuses her. And then the next, like two days later, they go back to have another CT of the mom's brain and the tumor's gone and the doctors are like, we don't know.
1 (33m 31s):
So talk about that. Like, so she's like, I cured my mom because I was abused. I mean, it is so deep. It's so crazy that I like that all in, it's a Netflix documentary. So I'm just, there's a lot of documentaries that are out there that are like, if you like psychological shit. Oh boy.
0 (33m 51s):
All right. Well,
1 (34m 4s):
It's actually interview part one, Eric, back in August boss, isn't in this interview because she was getting a COVID test, but please enjoy our conversation with Sean Gunn for sure. 1000%. Okay. Sean Gunn. You're the first person we're having on for the second time. So congratulations.
2 (34m 31s):
I thank you. All that means is that I've continued to survive theater school
1 (34m 38s):
And beautifully boss is not here because she is in line to get a COVID test. And it's a very long line. She found out she was exposed some other way and she doesn't feel well, so it's not looking good, but so she, she passed along her, her thoughts and questions. So I'll do my best to,
2 (34m 59s):
Yeah. A little pressure of being the first repeat guests. I actually listened to my episode cause I didn't want to repeat myself. So I'm like wanting to refresh my memory.
1 (35m 10s):
Well then we're in the same boat cause I did too. So we're, it's all fresh. Yeah. And there were a few things that you had started to talk about. And the first time that I wanted to follow up with the first is that, you know, you described yourself as kind of an angry guy in school. And I don't know if you said this, but I gather what you're saying is like, you've let the anger go to some, you don't feel like you're in that same place, but what do you think, why do you have an idea about why you were in that place?
2 (35m 48s):
Well, you know, for me, the best way to relate that to my experience of being in school is that I was essentially still, you know, maybe a child is, is too it's too extreme, but I was not a fully formed grown-up yet, but I was still put in this position where I was putting pressure on myself to act like a grownup and to behave in a grown-up way. I mean, all the pressures that we had in school, they're like, you know, you're being fed to the wolves. You're, you're, you're an adult. Now you have to make all the decisions that adults make.
2 (36m 30s):
And as I mentioned, I'm the youngest of six. I was, I'd already put a lot of pressure on myself to act like an adult at a younger age than I should have. And you know, I was 18 and 19 and, and confused about a lot of different things and carried around a lot of pretty serious issues about my self, my self-worth, you know, and, and all of the things that accompany that. And I just put a lot of pressure on that. And I, it, it, the way I think all those pressures manifest themselves differently to different people, but in my case, it manifested itself as I'm a tough adult.
2 (37m 23s):
And I'm just going to be an angry guy who hates everything and that's going to be the defense mechanism that I use for navigating the world.
1 (37m 32s):
So yeah, it does make sense, but that's my kind of making me think, you maybe weren't all that angry, but you were definitely feeling vulnerable and needing the armor, maybe in anger was the easiest way to access it because, because anger can make you feel powerful weirdly enough.
2 (37m 51s):
Yeah. It's a way for somebody who's who for me was, I was incredibly small, like literally small. I was like, you know, I, I had a little bit of height, but I'm super, super skinny. I still am. But then, you know, it's like when I was that age, I was just like, I, there's not a lot of ways to gain power other than to be somebody that other people are afraid of. And if you can't do that physically, you have to do it mentally and you have to do it with, you know, whatever the tools you have at hand.
2 (38m 32s):
And I, I, it's funny. I remember David, I have colleagues saying in my very first meeting, he was my faculty advisor, I think first year. And, and or maybe it was just a, an acting class meeting. And I remember the first meeting I had with him just a few weeks in the class. He told me that I was like a puppy with paws that were too big for my, you know, when you see, like you see like a German shepherd puppy, their paws are way too big and they're stumbling around and they're clumsy and all those kinds of things. And he was using it to relate to how I used my hands when I acted in scenes.
2 (39m 13s):
And, and I think that the analogy kind of stretched itself just to how I behaved as a, as a person. And I was like trying to be a tough, angry dog, but I was, I was a little puppy, you know, who was barking and then going and hiding in the corner.
1 (39m 33s):
Yeah. But that's such a great metaphor because actually probably what was true is you were waiting to grow into whatever you're feeling now and in your sort of more realized, happier, less angry, whatever place. But what about using emotion when you're in theater school, how good or not good do you think you were at being able to actually access your real feelings for the purpose of doing a part?
2 (40m 7s):
That's a great question. And I think it's probably the, the way that I, that I improved the most in my four years at school. And I, I think I just sort of mentioned this briefly the first, first time I was on, but, but taking John Jenkins technique class in our, in, in, in my third year was super helpful to me. It's, it's probably more than anything else. That's the thing I think about now from when I was in school, it's something that I kind of remember. And to me, I have no idea what he would say that the function of that class was.
2 (40m 48s):
But to me, the function was to create a shortcut between my emotional world and my actual output in terms of my work and my, and my creative world. And so that, so that, you know, you hear a lot about what, what it means to be a, you know, to use the Stanislavski method or to use, to use these different techniques in terms of using your own, your own emotional, you know, a wealth of information and how to translate that into the characters that you're playing in the work that you're.
2 (41m 36s):
But it's hard to really figure out in a, in a, in a tactile way, how to really actually do that. And that class, I felt like I, I, you sort of learn how to do it. It's, it's really, it's a, it's a tricky process, but learning how to take what was going on with me emotionally inside, and then translate it into the characters that I'm playing. It's something I still work to learn how to do, but, but that's something that we talked about in school. And then I think I got, I got better at, and it's incredibly important if you want to be really good.
2 (42m 20s):
I think, you know, it's like you, you have to, you have to learn those shortcuts. You can't, you know, you can only be faking it when you're having your off days.
1 (42m 35s):
Oh, that's, that's the skill you rely on when you does this, not there for you.
2 (42m 39s):
Yeah. And I think that's another important skill, you know, is being able to sort of fake it when you, when you need to. But if you're faking it all the time, then it's not, it's not real. And I think there are people go too far in the opposite direction, you know, who are like, who, who just think that it has to be 100% real all the time or, or it's worthless. And that's also not going to help you very much when you're really trying to, you know, you need every, you need every tool in your toolbox to really make it work. I think
1 (43m 15s):
It's not going to help you, especially if you don't. I mean, the people I hear and read about who, who go all the way there, what I never hear them talk about is then what do they do for themselves and with themselves when, when the working day is over, I'm gathering that they do that. They don't do it, that they just stay there. And maybe that's something like being an emotional cipher. Maybe that's just a gift that I don't understand. But to me, it seems like that's roiling up and bringing up a lot of emotion that I just don't. I can't figure out where people go with it, what people do with it when they're done.
2 (43m 56s):
Yeah. I think that, I think that for some actors that can almost be like the drug, like that's almost the dragon that they're chasing is that they want to be so in, in side of it, whatever character they're playing or whatever role they're playing, they want to go there so fully that, that they just live there. You know? So that, that, that, that moment that feels a hundred percent real is there when they need it. And, and I, I understand that, but it's also, for me, it, it takes away from that that element we're acting as also a job in a profession.
2 (44m 41s):
And you have to be, you have to be in some sense, beholden to the production that you're a part of, and that are paying the bills for the, for the production, whether it's a stage production or a film or television show, you know, and, and your coworkers and your, your, you know, there, there's no reason why, like, if I have some process where, where I need to fully immerse myself in everything, that my character is feeling all the time, you know, for me, I have to do that with some level of compassion for my coworkers who may not have that process and who are showing up to set and having a sort of different level of, of, of, you know, a different range of things that they're bringing.
2 (45m 41s):
I recently read, I don't want to get off talking about something else, but, but I, I recently read this profile of Jeremy Strong. Who's brilliant on succession and this new Yorker profile where he's, she talks about how he used, he is fully immersive and how that can be. And you know, his performance on that show is amazing. But you can read between the lines and see that his coworkers have difficulty with it sometimes. And as somebody who loves actors and loves acting, I mean, I would, I would do anything to sit and have a beer with Jeremy Strong and talk about acting for, for three hours.
2 (46m 21s):
But I would also love to sit and have a beer with, you know, his wife, Sarah snuck, and Brian Cox and, and Karen Koch and his coworkers and their process is different. And I think that if you want to be the best of the best, you have to, you have to incorporate all of those things. You have to think about everything that, that your, that your coworkers are bringing to the table, in addition to what you're bringing to the table.
1 (46m 50s):
Well, you have to be part of an ensemble. I mean, succession is my favorite show. And I think about it as being a great ensemble, but then I also read that piece and I thought, oh, you're not part of an ensemble at all. You're just doing, you're just doing your Maverick thing, which, you know, I mean, the proof is in the pudding. He is a fantastic actor. There's no denying it. I actually haven't heard of ch I mean, so who else comes to mind with that Daniel Day Lewis and Heath ledger and somebody else?
2 (47m 22s):
Yeah. Or a number of, of actors. I think, you know, in the piece they talk about Dustin.
1 (47m 30s):
Oh, right, right. Doesn't happen. And they're all fantastic actors. And, and maybe there are some people who do that method and they aren't great actors. It seems like everybody, every great actor seems to have a, not every great actor, but a lot of them seem to have this method. And it just seems like, okay, well, yeah. But if, when you leave the set or when you, when you walk off of your scene and you're just an asshole, what have you really accomplished? I mean, I guess you've given a gift to the world, but what about the world that's right there with you?
2 (48m 2s):
Yeah. I mean, I, I think that that's the kind of, that's what you're negotiating, right. Is trying to, trying to do a little of both and it's, and it's where, you know, for better, for worse actors really are artists. They really are creating, you know, and, and at the end of the day, do we care that Picasso was an asshole that matter to me, that's a grand existential question.
1 (48m 31s):
And then there's this other part too, where this thing about being an emotional cipher, this, this, like people who describe themselves as some kind of a vessel, I've never asked anybody this question before, but do you, do you know what I mean? When I say sometimes you meet actors who are your absolute heroes, and then they're just the most boring person to talk to. Have you ever had that experience?
3 (49m 1s):
Yeah, I think so. You know, I, I feel like it's more common than that. It's the other way that people who, people who seem so sort of like grounded and normal and their work seem so like, just, just magnificently grounded in reality, and then you meet them and it's like, oh, they're not like in their real life. They're, they're crazy. Like, I, I think I probably have more examples of that, but, but, you know, it comes, they come in all in all types and, and yeah, I think there are a lot of great actors who hide inside the roles that they're playing.
3 (49m 53s):
And then don't, don't have much utility for being real people in the, in the real world and are probably boring.
1 (50m 6s):
So, so talking about technique or earlier made me think about two things. One, one question is what did you have to really shift in terms of learning, how to be an actor doing theater, and then having to have your second education doing film, what's different about your approach to the work. And then the other thing is what is the same or different about your process now, as it was then
3 (50m 40s):
The biggest difference for me is the technical difference, which is that, you know, I try to tell actors as much as I can, that, that the, that working on film and television is like working on stage. If they tend to think that it's like working on stage, but if the audience is two feet in front of them, but it's actually much closer than that. It's like, it's like a working on stage. But if the audience is in miniature chairs that are set up all over the plane of your face, you know, like if the audience is actually sitting on, you know, like the audiences right there, like, and navigating that technical difference can be tricky.
3 (51m 28s):
And it's why a lot of great, great theater actors are a little bit too big on camera. And, and, and that's definitely one thing internally. I don't think it, I don't think it should change a whole lot. I mean, in both cases, to me, your, your boss that you're beholden to is the character that you're playing. So in both cases like wherever this character is that your, your job is to become that person and to fully realize their experience.
3 (52m 9s):
That's true. Whether you're, whether you're acting on stage or acting on camera, you know, full disclosure, I haven't been on stage in like 15 years. So I would love to, and I keep saying this on my, I, you know, like my wife joked to me, like last week, I was like, I got to get back on stage. I got to go do a play and get back on stage. And she says, she says, she said, you say that to me about every six months you go through this phase where you're like, I don't know that I'm like, I don't know that I feel comfortable with everything that I'm doing and in order to feel better about it, I need to get back on stage, but I haven't done it in a long,
1 (52m 56s):
Sorry about that. The impetus. So you get to a place where you feel like you're just connected. You're at like disembodied you're disconnected from what you're doing. And you feel like going back to theater makes you feel connected again.
3 (53m 8s):
Yes, it does. And it's also really just in terms of the amount of time that you get to spend with your character being your character, you know, like, like I can, you know, this past summer I ended up, I did a, I had a short arc on a TV series and it was one of my favorite roles that I ever played. And it's a, it's called the terminal list. It's a, it's an Amazon series that's coming out early next year. And it was so fulfilling creatively, but it also lasted such a short amount of time. You know, I like, I did my preparation and the, and the, the scenes that were really the most fun to do were just over a few days of filming.
3 (53m 57s):
And, and, and, and part of it is like, you know, you just want to be in it all the time when you're, when you, when you love it. It's like you just, I, I personally want to be working way more than I'm actually working. I don't think I'm unique in that, in that way. Although I wonder sometimes if the most successful actors feel that, like, I wonder if Merrill street feels that way or, you know, like if they, she probably does, you know, but like, but like, I wonder if people who have the ability to be doing it all the time, want to be doing it all the time. I don't know, but I, I still feel like I'm, I'm, I'm sort of chasing as much work as I want to do.
3 (54m 45s):
And, and the idea of tackling a character and being able to live inside his body for a few months. And, and then, you know, night after night for however long, the run of the show is like that to me, is, is the most appealing aspect of it. Even more than, you know, just the fun of getting on stage and having the audience right there, which is also a total blank.
1 (55m 17s):
Well, that leads me perfectly to another thing I was going to ask you about a little bit of a thought experiment. One of my fantasies is that we could go back and redo our intros with the same, you know, the same cast and just, just for the experience of how well, for me, the thing, because I'm so psychologically oriented would be like comparing the fit, the emotional experience of being in the play, meaning that like, I'm sure all I was then was nervous and insecure. I could bring something else to besides that. Now, if you could do that or not just necessarily an intro, but maybe a show from college, which one would you want to do again?
1 (55m 60s):
And what do you imagine you might do differently?
3 (56m 8s):
My gut, you know, if I was able to go back and do a show again, that I did in college, my, my gut is to do the one that went past and do it even better. And that, that one is raising captivity, you know? And like I was a, I think that that show was super successful from a student perspective, but, but we were grained and young and, and I would go back and do that same show with the exact same cast, if I could, you know, like it's, I, I was, I dunno, 20, I guess when I did that show, but I'm more, oh gosh, this is so sad, but I probably too old to play that character now.
1 (56m 59s):
No, man, I think anything goes into Silver's universe.
3 (57m 3s):
Yeah. I could probably do it, but that, that was certainly my first instinct. I would go back and look at it. I love the, I love the concept of being able to bring, bring what we know now to, to roles that we played in the past. We talked about that on this podcast, we Kirk that, you know, that the thing that sticks out to him, I think more than anything about school is that we were a bunch of, of kids kind of playing dress up in a way that I'm paraphrasing. That's not how he put it, but we were like, you know, that like he's playing these grown men. And they said, sometimes old men, you know, I did this play porn guilty that I was, I was a like 80 year old man when I was 19.
3 (57m 55s):
And it's probably one of the most successful roles that I had in college because you know, when you're, when you're 19 and you're playing 30, you think that you're kind of, you think that you're kind of close. You think you're kind of in the ballpark, but you may as well be playing 80. You're no closer, you know, like, like when you're 19, you don't know any more about what it's like to be 30, then you know what it's like?
1 (58m 27s):
Yes,
3 (58m 28s):
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's one we did that show or born guilty. I haven't read it forever. I don't even know if it's a good play, but like, it was, it was a play about that took place in Germany about, you know, grown-up children and grandchildren of Nazis who were like grappling, grappling with their histories and knowing that, that people in their lives participated in this atrocity. And that's certainly a worthwhile thing to, to explore in terms of drama.
1 (59m 5s):
What's, what's the, what's the obstacle to doing a play now for you?
3 (59m 13s):
Mostly time. I, you know, I'm not, if, if, if I was in a place in my career where I knew that I was, you know, starting a movie next September, and then another movie, you know, like if I know my schedule and I can be like, okay, I can carve out, you know, June, July, and August to do a play. Maybe I would, but I'm not, I'm not quite there yet. Like sometimes I know some things in my schedule years ahead of time, but I'm, I'm also, you know, you have to be available.
3 (59m 53s):
That's kind of what I, it's kind of like, what I chose in terms of this career is that, is that, you know, you like, like, it affords a lot of free time, but like your free time could disappear at any moment. And I'm still, you know, I'm, I'm still, I'm needing to make sure that I make a living. I feel better about that than I have at certain points in my career. But I, you know, there's no money in theater. I hit that, you know? I mean, I hate to be.
3 (1h 0m 34s):
Yeah, I know. I I'm sure everybody everybody's aware of that. And, and so that's
1 (1h 0m 43s):
Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. You, you would want to feel like we're completely set before you just decided to devote three months when you could be making a ton of money to do something that you're going to probably have to pay for yourself. So, so that brings me to one of boss's questions. She is really obsessed recently with this idea of legacy and what she wants her legacy to be and what people want their legacy to be. And I'm wondering if you ever think about that and if you have any idea about it.
3 (1h 1m 18s):
Yeah. Well, it's, it's kind of like what we were talking about being, you know, actors really are artists and it's, it's important to me that nothing lasts forever, but that the, the work that I do have some sort of value beyond the scope of my life. That's been a defining characteristic. I think of how I look at the world since I was young. I want, I want my work to people that continue to look at it and, and to see it.
3 (1h 2m 4s):
And the people, th th th I think that when you, when you leave something, that's your way of, of surviving longer than your actual life. I've always felt that even more than like I don't have children, you know, and maybe if I did, it would, I would feel differently about what is surviving from me after I'm gone. But I, I think a lot about what I want, but, but not in terms of what it actual, not in terms of what it actually is. Like, I don't think about that from project to project.
3 (1h 2m 44s):
I just think about the fact that I want my work to be good. And, and for it to survive after I'm gone, it won't survive forever. Cause nothing well, but, but the people will know that I was an actor and then I gave it my best. And then my work, you know, moves people in some way or made them happy or made them laugh or, or whatever it is. Like that's, that's super important to me, probably more important than it is to, to many of my peers, I think. Hm.
1 (1h 3m 20s):
That could be what makes you say that?
3 (1h 3m 27s):
I don't know. I guess, cause I, I, I guess because I, I do occasionally feel I'm haunted by it, you know? Like w when you, everybody worried, I don't know about everybody, but I think most people kind of worry about dying when they lay awake at night, before they go to bed, you know, and for me, the, the idea that I'm creating work, that's going to continue that after that is of some comfort to me, really more than anything else is coming.
1 (1h 4m 11s):
Yeah. I, I can see why I, I actually never, ever once thought about anything related to legacy, but my sister died the summer just like very unexpectedly. And she, there is, she has, I mean, she had two kids, but other than that, she has zero legacy. Like, there's zero imprint. She's not, she wasn't on social media. So you can't even have that. It's like, they didn't do an obituary for her. It was, it was just all the way over and that, so that was the first time that I thought, oh yeah, you do want to make something that lasts forever. So that there's some record of your existence.
3 (1h 4m 50s):
Yeah. Gosh. So sorry to hear that, by the way, it's such a, it's such a mindfuck.
1 (1h 4m 57s):
Well, you have a bunch of siblings. They're all still living, right?
3 (1h 5m 2s):
They are, they are. But my dad, just, my dad died about two years ago. And you know, I think that if one of your parents dies and it can't, it can't help, but put you into that frame of mind where you start to think about it.
1 (1h 5m 22s):
Yeah, actually that was another one of boss's question. She said she, she has the idea unless she's wrong that your dad and particularly the fact that your dad was a judge is a big part of your life or a big, it's very meaningful to you. I don't exactly know what she was getting at, but she wanted you to talk about your dad.
3 (1h 5m 41s):
Yeah, my dad, actually, my dad, dad was a judge and, and, and, but my, and he had, my grandfather had five sons. He had nine kids, Irish Catholic, and the, and the, and he had five sons who were all attorneys and, and it has a legacy of, of lawyers and judges and things like that. And up and down my family, but my dad, I don't know really where to begin with talking about my dad. He was really, really great and complicated guy.
3 (1h 6m 26s):
He did a great job raising six kids, a whole section of his life, I think was, was a bit of a mess. You know, he was, he, he had drinking problems when he was younger, even though he was making his way through law school and, and having children and whatever. And he got, he got sober in the seventies and, and th the thing, you know, he, he had a great impact on a lot of people. He's a really, really good human, I think a lot. I think if you asked a hundred people who knew him, what they admired and respected most about them, you'd get a hundred different answers for me.
3 (1h 7m 12s):
What I admired and respected most was that he continued to improve or the course of his life and to learn, you know, and that even at the very end, he never ever gave over to, well, this is just who I am and nobody's going to change me. You know, he, he tried to keep his eyes open and, and be a, be a better person all the time. That's kind of what it's about. Really. I think, I mean, if, if, like, if you're, if you're continuing to improve as a human being, I don't know what else I can really ask of yourself.
1 (1h 7m 52s):
That's your main job.
3 (1h 7m 55s):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, we're all in the entertainment industry and he had a big gregarious personality. He was the center of the room of every room we walked into. And I think that, that plays a little bit of a part in terms of his kids being entertainers, you know, even though I'm really the only performer, I guess.
1 (1h 8m 22s):
Yeah. But then this question came up the last time we were talking about, you know, at boss Y how do you get a family of so many people in the industry and, and w and I didn't know this bit about your dad. I mean, I, I would wonder if, listen, when people, when parents have big personalities, kids are wrapped and they spend a lot of time really just wanting to be on the inside of whatever the magic is that their, that their parents have. And one of the like pretty straightforward ways to do that is to not only perform, but to be in a position where other people are evaluating you in a, in a sort of like a, in a public way.
1 (1h 9m 6s):
And in your case, evaluate your brother and whoever evaluating you favorably must have felt good to for your dad, as well as, you know, you guys, th th the thought that you've been able to impress him must, must be a good feeling.
3 (1h 9m 24s):
Yeah. I think it is, oh, it's certainly a good feeling. He was definitely proud of, of, of all of us as he should have been. I mean, it's turned out pretty good. There's no, there's no weak link amongst us, except my brother, Matt, he's useless, but the, he didn't know. But honestly, I think that he, he was proud and, and he would be, I know he was, he'd be super proud in public, you know? Like, how have you seen, you know, talking about my brother, like, have you seen guardians of the galaxy?
3 (1h 10m 4s):
You know, my son, you know, have you seen Gilmore girls he's on, he was on Gilmore girls. You ever see that show, like, he'd be super excited to point that out. But the funny thing is, is that I think privately, he wasn't, he wasn't that much more impressed by that than he was just by the fact that his kids like work were, you know, good people and had good jobs and were good parents. And like, I think that he, he felt pretty, I think he felt pretty proud of all of his, all of his kids. And I'm, I mean, I'm just, I'm incredibly lucky. I'm, I'm way more. He was, he was very warm. He would cry at the drop of a hat and he was a very Irish, Catholic warmth.
3 (1h 10m 53s):
I'm, I'm less, I'm not quite, I have that in me. I'll never get rid of it, but I, I I'm, I'm just, I'm incredibly lucky to have been, to have hit him as somebody who I was able to watch and see how he did things and, you know, and, and see the mistakes that he made to your
1 (1h 11m 15s):
Parents seem amazing. Your parents. I mean, from what you've said about your mom last time and about your dad, they seem like really special people.
3 (1h 11m 23s):
Yeah. They're cool.
1 (1h 11m 25s):
So what kind of work art that you consume these days is really moving you?
3 (1h 11m 36s):
Well, gosh, I'm, I'm, I'm starting to try to work my way into, to be being able to have a little bit more, a little bit more autonomy in terms of making my own stuff. So my antenna is pretty attuned to that. My wife is, is an actor and a director, and she is, has just started directing her first feature and is doing this, you know, it's an, it's an indie, low budget horror film, which is a lot of ways, a lot of times the easiest way to start, because it's, it's, there's a market for it, and you can get something made and get people to watch something, even though it's on a low level and she's immensely talented.
3 (1h 12m 34s):
So we watch a lot, I watch a lot of things with her and we watch things that try to, you know, give ideas in terms of like, what, what, what budgets look like and what, you know, what I, how did they do this? How were they able to make this, you know, who, who financed it, those types of things. So a lot of the, they could for whatever re whether it's creatively or, or production wise, to be helpful in terms of like, trying to make our own stuff. But then there's also things like, like we were talking about succession earlier and we, you know, like if you're an actor, I think there there's nothing better than watching those, those actors, like, just like what they're doing weekend and week out.
1 (1h 13m 27s):
Yeah. What it is for you, the acting, or, I mean, because the acting is great. I, I just think the story is so compelling. And, and, and, and the fact that, like, what it makes me think about is that everything is just about family. Like literally everything is just about going away from and returning to, and fighting with and embracing family. And I mean, and I guess it's sort of loosely based on king Lear, so that makes it compelling to, but is it mostly about the acting for you? Is that what you love
3 (1h 13m 59s):
And the writing? I mean, I think that the acting and the writing, you know, ideally the great TV shows are just like this great grand dance between the acting and the writing, I think. And, and so I totally agree with you that just being a part of family and how it's so weird that, that not so little can happen on a show and it can be so compelling.
1 (1h 14m 29s):
I saw somebody tweet succession is an example of, or is it gives us hope that you can tell, not show sometimes, which I thought was, yeah, that's really true. Because as I go to write things, I'm on constantly, like, it's gotta be moving, it's gotta be moving. It's gotta be, it's gotta be going somewhere. It's not going to be interesting. But actually, if it's well written well enough, it can be, it can be a living room drama. Literally.
3 (1h 14m 57s):
I agree. My, my fear is that there's, you know, Tarantino movies are a little bit like this. My, my fear is that it's going to create a bunch of copycats that can't do what it does. You know, it's like, just because this show can have, you know, have a, have an episode, that's almost all dialogue of characters, like moving in, in space in one big room doesn't mean that you should do that too. You know, it's a, it's an incredibly, it's an incredibly tricky thing for writers to do when I bring up her now, because I think, I just feel like I've read a hundred scripts where like, it's clear that they've read Tarantino and they know that he can have a 10 page scene that is super compelling and works.
3 (1h 15m 51s):
And it's like, yeah, but almost no one else can do that. Just say, you know, like, it's like, he can do it because he's, he can do it. That's a skill. But like in general, don't put, don't put a 10 page scene in a car into your school.
1 (1h 16m 8s):
Yeah. And also like if you're writing something, ask yourself, have I seen this before? Because if you've seen it before, there's no real need for you to write it again. The thing that would be great is if you could write the thing that hasn't been written and that's uniquely your own story, I feel like that's something. And honestly, I think that people do that because they're afraid that what they have to say is not powerful enough. And that's usually not true. If you're called to tell story, whether it's through writing or directing or performing, then you, you, you already have what it takes. Right. You just have to like, that's what, but it's very hard to do. It's very hard to stay on the authentically you track.
3 (1h 16m 52s):
Yeah. Writing is such a, and you do more writing than, than anything we said that writers that your that's your main creative. And it's just so, it's so tricky. I've been trying to do more of it. I've dabbled in it. I have, you know, siblings that are professional writers. And so I know how, what would it be to be able to have that kind of discipline to, to stay in it. And it's so it's so hard. I would much rather somebody do.
1 (1h 17m 28s):
Totally well. Yeah. So, okay. So this is kind of a big question, and I know we don't have that much time left, but one of the main things that's happened in the industry in these last two years is just shakeups in every direction, maybe less so fulfillment TV then for, excuse me, then for theater. But certainly me too, had a big impact on the industry. And I've never asked anybody this before, but what's it like to be a man in the industry in the time of me to not, not being accused of any wrongdoing?
1 (1h 18m 12s):
I mean, what I hear some people say is they feel like they're just worried that they're going to do something unintentionally. What, where do you, where do you fall on that?
3 (1h 18m 25s):
I wonder, I don't know. I'm wondering, I wonder if those people had to have some sort of guilty, let me be fair. I understand that fear. I think that, I think that people, men in particular are more on their toes in terms of not saying the wrong thing and not saying, or doing anything that is going to get them in trouble. And mostly I think like, how great is that like good, you know, isn't that the whole, is that the whole reason for it?
3 (1h 19m 5s):
Isn't the whole, you know, the whole, not the whole reason, but the, but the, the best outcome of what happened with me too. Isn't isn't that, you know, Harvey Weinstein finally went to prison or, you know, that I won't name any more names, but that, you know, bad actor, a, B or C isn't going to work anymore, or has difficulty working. The best thing is that on a day-to-day level, people who have people who were subtly sexist and, and subtly, you know, well, it's not just sexism, but it's all of that.
3 (1h 20m 1s):
It's the, it's, it's the day to day stuff that we are forced to correct. To think about that that's, what's important is that we did, we stopped doing those things. I've, I've had those thoughts before where I'm like, oh, is there other things that I said, or did that would've been construed incorrectly for me? It wouldn't be, it wouldn't be actions as much as it would be like jokes that I'm in. You know, that I thought that like, you know, I, I don't think, I don't think I have any concerns that I sexually harassed anybody, but I may have made jokes about sexual harassment that were, that I shouldn't have.
1 (1h 20m 49s):
If we could have a camera on what was happening at theaters, we would all be,
3 (1h 20m 54s):
Everybody would get, everyone would be canceled. But like, I think that in general, it's mostly, it's mostly good. What I noticed on side is that people are a little more careful and a little more respectful. And that's what we want is for people to be a little more careful, a little more respectful, you know, what's the big, a lot of the times people that are the people that complain the loudest pretend that they're complaining because there's jokes. They used to be able to make that they can't make anymore. But it's like, is that really what you're complaining?
3 (1h 21m 35s):
The loudest?
1 (1h 21m 36s):
Yeah. Yesterday when the, I think it was yesterday when the Jeff Garlin thing came out and I read his comments that, you know, he bottom line bottom lining it and paraphrasing with it. Something like, you know, I interpreted was like, I should just be able to be who I am and everybody else who feels offended by it should get over it. And I thought, okay, good. That actually helped me crystallize the problem with this. Can't say anything. Mentality is what you're saying. When you say that is so that I can always be authentically who I am and not have fear about being who I am.
1 (1h 22m 22s):
You must not be authentically who you are and, you know, be honest about how the world is, how it's affecting you. And that that's the, that's the shift. I think that has to happen yet for, for many people.
3 (1h 22m 42s):
And forgive me, I'm, I'm actually glad that I'd been off Twitter for a few days. I don't know what happened with Jefferson.
1 (1h 22m 47s):
Oh, he got fired from his show because there's a couple of years of HR complaints, nothing like assault. And I think even maybe nothing like harassment, but that, no, I guess it's harassment, you know, just that he makes off color jokes. He, you know, he's loud bombastic I'm sure. But you know, okay. So it's not that it's wrong to be bombastic, but, but it's also not wrong to interrogate your automatic, you know, things that you say or that, you know, your automatic reactions to things there's nothing wrong with taking a look at that, to your point of what you're saying about your dad getting better. There's nothing wrong with just continuing to get better.
3 (1h 23m 30s):
Yeah. And from my view, by and large, most of the people who have, who have gotten in trouble, you know, like, it seems like most of the people who were sort of thoroughly canceled, there was very good reason for it. And, and the, most of the people who, it seemed a little more complicated, like a little dicier, like who got into trouble, they weren't actually canceled. They were sort of checked and have mostly gone on to do other things. And probably in that case, it's probably rightfully so. I mean, it would, it's not within my area of expertise to go through one by one and say what's fair and what isn't.
3 (1h 24m 18s):
But I, I think for the most part, things have kind of, you know, shook out fairly. I mean, you know, I, I, I got into my, my, my, as most people know, my brother got into trouble for old, old tweets that he wrote and was, and was, and was originally fired from guardians three. But I think that some of it was, you know, without getting into too much detail, it's like some of it was, was a knee jerk reaction to what was going on in the moment.
3 (1h 25m 3s):
A lot of it was unfair because it was stuff that had been apologized for and dealt with and like had been moved on for, and eventually he, he got re hired and I think it all sort of worked out. Was there some level of unfairness to it probably, but why would that be what we dwell on? I mean, how much fairness has there been from the other side for decades and decades? So I don't know. It's, it's certainly a complicated issue. Maybe, maybe you should start another podcast about just that
1 (1h 25m 39s):
Seriously, seriously, but that's what you're filming right now. Right. Aren't you doing? Great. Okay, cool. How is it going?
3 (1h 25m 46s):
Yeah, that's what I'm here, where we're doing. Guardian is three. Great. Oh, you know what I wanted to mention, because I didn't mention it on the, I couldn't believe that the first time on, I didn't, I didn't bring this up, but you know, I do, I do two roles in the, in the Marvel movies. I, I, I play Craig Lynn. Who's an onscreen character that had an expanding role in and in the movies. But, but I also play rocket, the raccoon on set and Bradley Cooper does his voice in the movies, but I'm, I'm there every day when we shoot the scenes. And, and I'm kind of there mostly to work with the other actors, but also to some degree to work as a visual reference for the special effects team.
3 (1h 26m 33s):
So that when they, when they see where, how rocket his face is moving and things like that, they're able to use, use what I'm doing as a reference, as a jumping off point for how to animate the character. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that in the first movie, the way that, that this came about was I had been hired. I knew I was gonna read his wines, but we weren't sure exactly how we were going to shoot the scenes. And in the first rehearsal, I was like, I'm just going to get down on my hands and knees and use some of the animal training that we learned in school. If you remember, we all went to the zoo and watch the animals, and we would have to pretend to be known as animals.
3 (1h 27m 20s):
And so I got down and like started being a raccoon on the ground and was approximately the right. I have some weird limber. My, my, my hips are oddly limber, so I can get down to a crouch and kind of move around from that position really easily. And, and I was able to get down on my hands and knees and pretend to be a raccoon. And that's what worked. And you know, now I'm doing my, my sixth movie as, as rocket. And I just thought it was, I just think it's so funny. That's like how many actors that went to the theater school were able to use that, that animal training, you know, for, for something other than children's theater or
1 (1h 28m 10s):
That's, it that's that it, if you had said, if somebody had said to you, when you were doing that at the time, oh, this is going to pay off big for you. You might not believe them.
3 (1h 28m 20s):
You may need to put, play a record.
1 (1h 28m 32s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
0 (1h 29m 1s):
Thank you.
Intro: Amtrak, you can't afford to live anywhere, where am I trying to go?, being of service, Legacy, Fresh and Fancy
Let Me Run This By You: We get feedback from Dave, talk about Jeff Garlin, NO ONE IS HIDING ANYTHING
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school
2 (12s):
Together. We survived it.
1 (14s):
You didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
2 (21s):
Survived theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?
1 (31s):
Hello survivors. It is Gina. Just wanted to let you know that today, boss and I are guest lists. We are without a guest and we instead had a conversation, just the two of us, chickens about a ton of things, including the fact that nothing is a secret. Even the things that we think are and talking about legacy. This is a topic that boss has been really interested in recently. And I guess I'm starting to get interested in it too. At some point in one's life, one starts to think, Hmm, did it matter that I was here? What did I do? What, what proof or evidence of is there? What I did, or maybe you don't think that way, maybe your legacy is just that you lived a contented and happy life and, and it doesn't matter if it is written in the stars in any way, either way.
1 (1m 22s):
It's fine with me. Just interesting to learn about what people's philosophies or the thoughts are about legacy. And as we come to this end of the year and we're reflecting on, wow, we're reflecting on, I guess these last two crazy years, hopefully everybody is entering this time of reflection with a lot more clarity. Maybe I think the pandemic has been clarifying among many other things. And so hopefully you're feeling, I don't know, clear, and hopefully you are enjoying this podcast.
1 (2m 4s):
And if you are enjoying it, you are hopefully subscribed. And if you're subscribed, hopefully you have left us a review. Honestly, I don't even care what the review says. I think just having reviews is the thing that helps us with the king algorithm. And that's important only because we want to be able to keep doing this podcast. We enjoy doing it. We, we get a lot out of it. And we've heard from people that people are getting a lot out of it in return. So it's a mutually great thing that we'll be able to continue. If you are able to put your love for our podcast, not just in your heart, but in the world, tell the public, shout it from the rooftops.
1 (2m 47s):
I'm not going to stop you from shouting it from the rooftops. I'll tell you that much right now. Anyway, that's all for that. Please enjoy.
3 (3m 10s):
I'm going to take it to all those places. Cause those are like some of my favorite places in Southern California. And I didn't know that. So I'm learning a lot. And so I took it to San Francisco to Oakland and my cousin picked me up. But what is fantastic and sad about Amtrak for people that don't know? Like nobody knows shit about Amtrak, but Amtrak is a government funded. So rail is government funded. It was supposed to be like the thing of the future. It was supposed to be just rail. We weren't like flying and, and, and, and train travel was supposed to be comparable like it was going to be, but it just like, it has a lot to do. Someone was telling me like w who I met on the Amtrak.
3 (3m 51s):
Cause you eat in community eating. So these two amazing women that I met told me that like something with world war two and trains, the trains all had to be used for, for like ammunition, like the war Fs. And so then it became less of a, a passenger situation. And then when flying really anyway. So, but it's gorgeous. So w and what you can do is, so I bought a coach ticket, which is literally like, you know, I don't know, 50 bucks, a hundred bucks round trip from, but then you can bid to upgrade your seat because Amtrak has no money.
3 (4m 32s):
So what you can do is say, okay, well, like I'm willing to pay. They give you a range I'm willing to pay. And I did the lowest $20 more to go to business class, which is like super much nicer. Right. So I bid, and then they said, of course they accepted my bid because it's not a full train. Nobody trained travels by train. And so business classes dope. And it is like, you get two seats. It, they reclined almost all the way. There's, it's just, it's quiet. Like coaches, coaches, loud as hell, where people are eating, like, you know, Funyuns and like Takis chips the whole time. And like, you know, a lot of people like down on their luck and stuff like that.
3 (5m 15s):
Okay. So, you know, I did business class on the way there and lovely. I mean, there's wifi. I mean, it's like dope. And the bathrooms were relative are clean. I don't in business class anyway. All right. So it literally goes up the coast. And so you, you, you're on the ocean. It's the weirdest thing you're like, this is I'm, I'm traveling right next to the ocean. It's a long time. The whole time. Almost long as hell though. Okay. So like, you know, the flight is 45 minutes from Burbank to, to, to San Francisco. And the train ride is 10 hours. Like, that's just how it is. Like, that's, if you are in a hurry, you do not take the Amtrak.
3 (5m 57s):
You know what I mean? So there is like, I do have some shame, like, people think I'm ridiculous a little bit. They're like, I'm like, where am I going? I, it's not like I have pressing meetings. I am not. Yeah.
1 (6m 9s):
And for, for the life, so many of us are living right now, which is working from home or working remotely or making your own schedule. Why shouldn't you it's much better for the environment to take the train. Yeah.
3 (6m 23s):
It is it, you take the airplane. Yes. So, so it was amazing. And then I had a wonderful, wonderful time in San Francisco. Like I never really liked San Francisco. I don't know what my problem was. Like, I never really got into San Francisco even though like people cause
1 (6m 41s):
Your mom left you a spree for, oh
3 (6m 43s):
My God. Yeah. If you listen to this podcast, you know that like, you know, my mom was having an affair and, and, and we went to San Francisco and she literally left my sister and I at the esprit outlet, which thank God, had a restaurant in the outlet for like what felt like forever. But it, it was a work day. It was a full work day at a spree. It was like eight hours. So I just really, in the last couple years have really grown to love the shit out of the bay area. Like I know the tech bros have taken over. I know that you can't afford to live there. Okay. All those things are true. I still, because maybe I'm not from there.
3 (7m 23s):
I know I'm not so butt hurt about that. Like I, you know, and my aunt and uncle this beautiful, beautiful condo in north beach and my cousin lives in the inner inner Richmond, I don't know. Anyway. So she's on Clement street and it's gorgeous. And I walked everywhere and we went hiking in Moran and we drove to Marin. So I would live there. I would live. I mean, I, you know, who can afford to live there, but here's the thing that I think a lot of us too are, are, are really looking at. Most of us in my circle are like, we, we really literally can't afford to live anywhere. Like the, the world is becoming unaffordable on a, so many ways. And so many levels that the thing of like, oh, it's so expensive in blank.
3 (8m 6s):
City becomes less sort of exciting or like less sensational because it's like, look around what, what are you talking about? You can't live anywhere. It's all, it's all terrible. So, so all this to say, like, it was, it was a great trip. And then on the way back, I got smart and I was like, okay, well, let me see if I can upgrade to a room. You can bid on rooms on the train, right. Cause it's 10 hours or whatever. And I was like, okay, let me, and they took my bid of, you know, $40 or something to upgrade to a room. And that has all the amazing meals included. So two meals, which lunches, if you just paid for it is 25.
3 (8m 49s):
Dinner is 45. So I got lunch and dinner free. And I just tipped to the, and it was delicious salmon. I mean like this, and I got my own room and I wrote, and I, I like lived, lived my best life on the train
1 (9m 5s):
Girl. I need to do this, but I don't live in California. I mean, maybe I'll just pick a, maybe I'll pick it east coast version of that.
3 (9m 16s):
It doesn't matter. Like you could, you can also take it like they have specials. Like there's apparently a really beautiful ride between DC and New York. So
1 (9m 29s):
Yeah, no. So I also love or have loved the idea of train travel. And I always really wanted to take, there's a, there's a train that goes somehow through the Rockies. That's the one I really want to go on. But the first time I treated myself to a train trip. Oh, that's right. The worst possible
3 (9m 53s):
You were pregnant. Right.
1 (9m 55s):
I was the worst possible route to, we went from Chicago to Texas. So there's nothing to look at. The train was disgusting. It was so dirty and I was pregnant. So my, you know, my sense of smell, which is already very heightened was even, was just off the chain. And as a result of being on that train, I developed
3 (10m 24s):
Vertigo. I'm like, God, I mean,
1 (10m 26s):
It was coincidental. I never, we never did figure out what the deal was. But I developed a kind of vertigo when I was pregnant, where I had to crawl on the floor because I couldn't, you know, cause I couldn't walk and thankfully knock on wood that has not returned to me. And it also didn't return to my next two pregnancies, but yet it soured me and us on trains. But I think it's just the route we picked. We need to pick
3 (10m 57s):
It's the route and yeah, definitely don't have, don't be pregnant, but that's not going to happen for you again. So you don't have to worry about that. But like I'm all done with that. And so I had a great trip and I actually had like these huge realizations while I was there about, about working about money, about the entertainment industry, it was really, it was I, and I went with the intention of really looking at what is it that I'm going for in life? I mean, that's such a huge question, but like what, where am I trying to go? And, and the idea of service, right? So I always thought being of service was about other people, but really what it is for me is being of service in the way that I want to be of service is actually for me, like I didn't realize that I feel is good for my mental, physical, and emotional health when I'm being of service in a way that feels not to pleading, but all, but like really energizing and also like a, like thinking about legacy, I've also been thinking about legacy, like what is my, what is going to be my legacy?
3 (12m 12s):
And it tied into like, I was really, you know, I spend because the holidays are coming up way too much. It will not wait too much, but a lot of money on my nieces and nephew for Christmas gifts, right? Like thousands of dollars, right. Dish, I love giving gifts. It's my jam. But then I realized that like, and you probably, you know, I'd be so interested to hear what you have to say, but having children, but like a lot of this stuff, I got them, they outgrow, they don't care about very soon is cheaply made and is garbagey. And it has a very, very little lasting effect on their lives. And that's just the truth and I'm not judging it.
3 (12m 52s):
I'm just saying that seemed, that was the data I was picking up. And I'm like, that's literally like just throwing money away after a while year after year. So there's a, let me get smart about this. So we started a trust for each kid where we put that and I said to that shutter dude, I wish someone had done that for my ass. So I said to them, you can choose, we can keep going the way we're doing with gifts for Christmas and blah, blah, blah. Or you can, we can put donate every year and you could literally get very, very, very few gifts. But your huge gift is that each year we put a certain amount of money. And then basically by the time you're 30, you'll be millionaires.
3 (13m 36s):
I mean, just because of the way money grows, not even because we're putting that much in. And they were like, what? And so miles really educated me and them on the power of, of the investing money in a way that is with the interest and all that shit. And so that's what we're doing. And I, I got to say like, it tied into this idea of legacy and like, I would watch rather have those kiddos like be able to use it. And it's not like one of these things where they have to use it for college because fuck it, man, not everyone goes to goddamn college right away or ever, but they can't touch it until they're a certain age or they can choose to keep it in there and roll it over to another kind of account or whatever.
3 (14m 17s):
So, but I'm thinking about this shit differently in terms of legacy based on like, what do I want to leave this earth? Like, do I want to, you know, have, have my legacy be that I gave my, my niece to like a fake Dior ring that turned her finger green or right, right. It's fine. But it's so that's how we started it this Christmas. Cause I was like enough, enough, enough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what you've just given us here in this conversation is like the center of a
1 (14m 51s):
Bicycle wheel by the goal wheel. And we have a, there's a bunch of spokes there. There's like talking about what's your purpose in life and where are you going? And there's talking about your legacy and then there's talking about consumption. And then there's talking about instant gratification that we give to kids in the form of gifts. And there's talking about that a lot, the pressures that we put on ourselves on Christmas, I mean just suffice it to say, I have been on the sometimes what feels like the circular journey of, you know, from, I mean, you know, when, when I first had kids, when we first had kids, it was really exciting to give the gifts.
1 (15m 33s):
It was exciting to create a Christmas that I remember from my childhood, the excitement of coming downstairs
3 (15m 40s):
And magic magic
1 (15m 43s):
1000%. And, and that sustained me for the period of time that the kids are literally happy to get whatever the minute it turned. And it turned when the oldest one was not that old. Yeah. I'm going to say like seven. Yeah. Yeah. And he, they had a bunch of presents and they opened everything up. And then he said, is that it? Yeah. And I went, oh damn, we're doing this wrong. We're doing it completely wrong. And so we've had a few Christmases and this is one of them where we're not doing gifts, which is to say, there will be stockings, you know, and maybe one little thing, but we're not doing the multiple presents under the trees.
1 (16m 31s):
We didn't do multiple Eddy presents for Hanukkah because of exactly what you said, toys is five to 15 minutes of joy for a lifetime, literally a lifetime of trash that I then, then it becomes my job to get rid of organized, find a space for a blood body block. And now the kids are pretty much almost all of them at an age where they don't want any of those things anymore. They want money, they want electronics. They want, so we have the way that we save money for them is not in the, for like Christmas, but that's actually a really good idea.
1 (17m 12s):
And something going to bring up with my husband and says,
3 (17m 15s):
Yeah, I mean, for those of us, I think it's a great idea. And also it's so much easier, not easy. Well, I don't know for miles and I don't have kids, so it's not in our face all the time. And we moved away from them. It's a different story when you're in under the same roof with being with children, with beings, small beings that, you know, are you so I, I am very aware that we have like the we're the aunt and uncle to different, it's a different deal. But like we just thought, wait a minute.
1 (17m 44s):
Yeah. And the thing that you're really after when you give a gift or at least I think is the joy that it brings to the person and, and that's great, but like you're saying most of the time, it's a, it's a very fleeting. And also like you don't want to teach kids that this is the way to direct your joy, right? Like from getting things, right. I'm not saying that that's, that's what you're definitely doing. If you give Christmas present, I'm not saying that. But you know, we just live in this very like consumer oriented culture,
3 (18m 17s):
The kid's fault. It's nobody's fault. It's a system, it's a systemic situation, but it hit me last. When I really, when I really was like, okay, I want to do this differently. It was last Christmas. My youngest niece wanted and got it is not knocking anyone involved, but it was very clear to me that we, it was really stark about what was going on. She wanted a claw machine, a mini Kalama machine from an arcade that literally just had candy in it, candy bars. And you made this loudest noise you've ever heard, took 10 batteries, 10 big ass batteries.
3 (19m 7s):
And literally there's candy in it. That's killing us all the sugar and look, you know, whatever. That was the least of my worries. But I was like, this is wait, what?
1 (19m 16s):
That's interesting. That has me
3 (19m 20s):
Wait. And it was a, probably a really expensive machine. It's not cheap, but that's what she wanted. My sister got it. And look, I'm not knocking anyone involved, but for me, I was like, it was so, so striking about what was going on. Cause it was so loud and obnoxious.
1 (19m 39s):
Let me ask you this. What do you remember getting for Christmas? Okay.
3 (19m 42s):
My favorite thing I ever got, this is so crazy in my life when I was a kid kid was okay. Two things I can tell the first gift that I like went Gaga, Google over was something, it was a makeup kit called fresh and fancy. And it had, it had perfumes. It had, and it was probably, you know, 9 99, 99 at Kmart. But like my sister and I each got one and it, what, what it was, was super fun, super adult, super smelled. So good. And I, there is a picture of me opening it up and in, in my I'm saying fresh and fancy.
3 (20m 27s):
And then I take the picture.
1 (20m 30s):
Do you have that picture accessible?
3 (20m 33s):
Yeah, I think so. I can send it, send it, send
1 (20m 36s):
It. Yeah.
3 (20m 38s):
I will send that and to fresh and fancy. Okay. That was number one. And then the second gift I remember as an adult getting that was really moving to was my mother who traveled all the time and who I really sort of labeled as a selfish, kind of a human at times gave my sister and I each a ticket, a plane ticket to go anywhere in the world because she had so many miles. But like the fact that she, she thought about us and the fact that her travel, which as a child brought so much grief to me because she was gone all the time that she was then turning it around and giving my sister and I each a plane ticket to anywhere was really moving to me and also was really abundant and felt like that's awesome.
3 (21m 25s):
You know, is that when you went to Columbia, that's when I went to Prague by myself for a week and a half, which was insane or two weeks, it was crazy, but
1 (21m 34s):
Oh yeah,
3 (21m 37s):
It was in, when I lived in LA, it was a long time ago. So, and I, I, I, it just, so I wish I had gone with somebody else. It was the most lonely, it was beautiful and Prague is crazy and, and fun, but I went alone, but that's like really just indicative of where I was at in my LA life. So it doesn't, that's not shocking to me. What about you? Like, what do you remember being like, oh my God,
1 (22m 0s):
I got to speak and spell. I, I really, I really coveted speak and spell. And for those of you who don't know a speak and spell is just, would be an app now. And it wouldn't be nearly as fun. This was a self-contained. It was like a really thick version, like a three inch thick version, maybe note or two of an iPad. And it was orange and it had a handle built into the top and it would say a word in a computerized voice, like structure, and then you'd have to spell it. And if you got it right, this is the, so this tells you a lot about my psychology, the high, I got that little sound telling me I spelled something, right.
1 (22m 43s):
I just felt like I could, I was vanquishing Rome. It was, I felt so powerful that I got a bike one year. That was amazing. And I kind of lip gloss that smelled like root beer.
3 (22m 57s):
Oh, I know that those
1 (22m 59s):
Are the things that just like off the top of my head. I remember just falling in love with, and, and being, you know, unequivocally joyful, happy with moments. And that's the thing that you're always after, like for yourself or the people that you love, you want to impart this joy. That's what I was going to get you. Like, you want to impart this joy and then there's this tacit thing about like, you better feel joy from this. At least that's what I find myself, you know, evaluate whether or not this person is feeling joy from it, because that's what I want. I want to give them joy of this present. And then I feel sad if it doesn't work out.
3 (23m 38s):
Yeah. And, and, and, and, and it, it usually doesn't work out like that only because people aren't mind readers people don't, everyone's different. And Joy's so, so personal. And so, so specific to that person. And it's like, it's just such a setup, but it's also, we keep trying and I'm going to still, I still love giving presents, but I now am like, oh, okay. Can't be for me, like the mass quantity of just, yeah. Crap. Like, it really hit me too. Like I bought one year, my niece was really into Shopkins.
3 (24m 19s):
Remember, oh yeah. I bought like $200 worth of Shopkins for her.
1 (24m 23s):
lasted for that year. And then she makes, never picked up shots.
3 (24m 29s):
Not even the whole year, maybe a month.
1 (24m 32s):
That's the thing, man. They get, and they get, and I, I, I was going to say, this is especially true for girls, but I'm, I'm going to re revise that because the boys did it too. When they love that thing, it's all they care about. It's their whole world. You know, my daughter said to me all, I, the only thing I want you to get me is just tons and tons of puppets. What's a
3 (24m 58s):
Pocket.
1 (24m 59s):
A pocket is a PLA silicone flat toy that has these half hemisphere, a half a hemisphere that you put, like you, it's a satisfying sensation to push it in. And then you flip it over and push it the other way. Shit.
3 (25m 24s):
What's in that what's in the pocket, like a little creatures,
1 (25m 28s):
Zero, nothing. It's in the shape of whatever you want it to be in the shape of it's a fidget choice. Essentially. I
3 (25m 36s):
Understand. It's like an ASMR founding,
1 (25m 39s):
Totally tile. It doesn't make a sound. It's all about it being tactile. Yeah. And, and, you know, go to the stores and they're everywhere. Puppets. You'll see if you start looking for now, you'll see that they're everywhere. And so that's what she wants. And a half of me completely wants to indulge that wish. And the other half of me says, I'll be throwing these all away in six months. And then I'll feel like an asshole because I spent a bunch of money on something that I knew was a fool's errand.
3 (26m 10s):
Yeah, I'm right. It's like so hard because they believe they really want it.
1 (26m 18s):
They really, it's
3 (26m 18s):
Not, it's not a joke. It's not a, it's not a joke. Like that's their jam.
1 (26m 24s):
Yeah. So this year we're going skiing for Christmas. That's
3 (26m 27s):
Our part of New Hampshire.
1 (26m 29s):
We're going to Vermont. And I think I've told everybody on the podcast I do. That's right.
3 (26m 35s):
You'd like the ski lodge into, right?
1 (26m 38s):
Yes ma'am. So I go and I get everybody off in the morning to their little activities and it's as, you know, a huge amount of work, then the gear and the schlepping. So I help everybody get to that. And I get back to my little cozy spot and read and write and just hang out that sound. So I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. And honestly, that's the thing that people I I'm banking on. Cause this will be the third time we've done a trip instead of presence. And, and these are trips that we still talk about. So I think it is a good investment experiences are a better investment than
3 (27m 14s):
I absolutely agree. And I feel like that's the trust starting for these kids. It's like, we're gifting them with the experience of maybe like a down payment on a fricking home, a car to get them from here to there a education, like a real thing, like a thing that you need to like live your life versus a fricking fake Cuban Linx chain. I didn't even know what Cuban links were. I didn't know what was happening.
1 (27m 42s):
I don't know what that
3 (27m 42s):
Is. What is Cuban links? I oh, those
1 (27m 45s):
Big, Easy.
3 (27m 51s):
And it's just ugly. And it's also $6,006,000. What did Jackie about? Oh anyway,
1 (27m 59s):
I, you, you just did yourself, such a favor. I mean, you did them mostly a favor, but you did yourself such a favor because also the other thing is, you know, I have experienced, I go out shopping and I'm immediately overwhelmed and I'm trying, okay, now this one, I got this,
3 (28m 14s):
I asked who gets one and did, is it equal? And like,
1 (28m 18s):
Oh my God, it's just, it's like a, it's a hell
3 (28m 33s):
I thought we might start out with, I got some feedback on the, okay. So my, on the podcast from, so my, my parents' best friends, Nancy and Dave, they like helped raise me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they've really become like second parents. And, you know, they, they hadn't heard the podcast. So they were like, send us an episode. And I said, okay. And you know, it's always tricky because they really know me. They really know my parents. They really know my life in some ways in my childhood. So I was like, well, so I sent them an episode. I sent them the does small ocean Hooga knocker episode because Dave is a therapist and he works with people with addictions.
3 (29m 13s):
And I thought, oh, that might be interesting. And so the feedback is so interesting. The feedback I got was I'll read it on air because it's good. It's a podcast. Podcasts was good. Felt like a reunion. Sounds like David was deep into self-destruction before he recovered a talented guy was hoping to hear more from you. But that's for selfish reasons. I like how you identified the macro themes in your Roundup at the end. And then I wrote, thank you so much. We're we Gina and I are always aware that like, like, you know, we don't want it just to be us and we don't want to just to be guests.
3 (29m 54s):
So we're trying to find a mix. So his feedback it's so funny. He liked, he likes to give feedback. You know, if you and Gina are willing to talk about what life experiences brought you to embrace the arts and try and make a decent living, I liked the way you have reconstructed your family life so that you don't have to be an emotional casualty. There's a lot to talk about how you both learn to think from, from psychodynamic and systems orientation. I don't even know what that means. I'm not smart enough. The best stories are the stuff of good soap operas, good screenwriting can teach people how to better understand and navigate within their interpersonal worlds.
3 (30m 36s):
I'd like to hear another one, if you don't mind the feedback. So Loves our inter you know, he's, he's a therapist, obviously. So he loves that. But it was interesting. I mean, I seriously don't know what half of that means, but like,
1 (30m 54s):
No, he just means no, he just means like the thing, I mean here, here's this big secret that we've never told anybody, this podcast is not really about theaters. Right. And so what you saying is the, the, the psychodynamic for, you know, background that we have influences and informs our conversation so that we, we think about things dynamic and that's it. And that would be interesting to a therapist. Therapist thinks about things dynamically too. And yeah, I mean, honestly, it there's so much it's, so there's always so much to talk about. There's so much to talk about. Like, and I, well, the thing I, this ties into the thing that I kind of wanted to talk to you about, which is that when we first started recording a podcast, it was not, I survived theater school.
1 (31m 44s):
We were calling undeniable, right.
3 (31m 46s):
That's right.
1 (31m 47s):
And we had about eight, you know, hour long conversations that were about this concept of being undeniable. So I kind of wanted to clarify for people who may not know why is our company called undeniable? Why is not the website? Because when you told the great story about it, we didn't never air that till we did. So, no, because it was, it was for,
3 (32m 20s):
We never found and they tried to send to you and then it got
1 (32m 23s):
No, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying like, we recorded those and then we changed our mind about what the
3 (32m 29s):
Right. Yes. Okay. Yes. That makes sense. Oh, should we tell the story? Yeah. So it's so funny because I wonder if he ever heard this, if he would even remember, you know, it's so funny, like who remembers telling people what? All right. So the story is this. So I, well, first to say that, like you and I were talking about like, what, what is the thing of life? Like, what is again, where I'm at now, which is what are we going after, right. Like, what is the quality of life that I'm going after that you're going after that we're going after as a team. Okay. So it reminded me of this story of I did a solo show and it was called why not me love cancer and Jack White and the woman who was, and it was a solo show basically about cancer and about working for Nick cage and all kinds of things.
3 (33m 19s):
Just like I surprised theater school is not about theater. School is not really about Jack White, my show, you know, it's whatever. So, okay. So I'm doing this show. And my, the director of my show is this woman named Alison lion. And she happens to be good friends with the comedian and storyteller and actor, Jeff Garlin who I, I didn't know from Adam, like I wasn't a curb, your enthusiasm fan. So I didn't know, but I knew he of him. And I knew he's like a famous guy. Right. So she said, you know, how would you feel about Jeff? Garlin coming to see a dress rehearsal and giving notes. And I was like, oh, sure. Literally being like, oh, a famous person wants to come see my show.
3 (34m 0s):
That's cool. You know, not like, what can I glean from this artist? You know, just cause that's, that's where my mind went. I would've have been the same. I mean, I just am not mature enough for whatever, so, okay. So I do the, it was, it, it was real nerve and it was an empty house, but him, he and Alison were sitting up there at stage 7 73 on Belmont in Chicago. And so I did the show and whatever, and it was an okay show. I mean, I look, I don't know, but afterwards, if such an interesting story afterwards, he was giving notes to Alison, but not me. And I thought, well, that's weird, but he was really there for her.
3 (34m 42s):
That was her mentor kind of, you know, her comedy mentor. But then I came out of the house into the house and met and met Jeff and he was lovely. And he said, well, do you want notes? Or somehow it came up like, do I want actor notes? And I was like, of course, which is shocking to me because I never want notes. Right. And I always say, I would love feedback. And by feedback, I mean, compliments, like, that's my . I did say of course, because that's what you say when a fancy person wants to give you notes. And he gave me some great notes, which was stopped swearing so much. And he compared me to Robin Williams, which was amazing.
3 (35m 22s):
He said, because I could tell he called him by his first name. I do believe he was like, when Robin would swear a lot, I would know that he was, he was, was dying on stage, was off. Yeah. And I was like, that's fascinating or pushing, like I push when I'm swearing. Okay. Great note. I've I've kept that note and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right. So then, then I have to tell us, because it's so interesting because I would have done the same thing. So then after he gave notes, which I kind of blacked out some of them, cause it was a lot, but then he, Alison, we're going to go out to eat at clerks on Belmont, but they didn't invite me. Right. And I was like, oh, and then I was in the bathroom and Alison called and she's like, I'm an idiot.
3 (36m 5s):
I didn't invite you. Do you want to come? And I was like, oh, of course. Yeah. She, and I think what happens is when you're around famous people, you forget, you
1 (36m 13s):
Lose your census. It's
3 (36m 15s):
Very weird. It's a weird thing. I think that's what happened for, so we went to Clark's on Belmont and he, we taught he's so what is he? He's he's a generous. No, he's, he's a big personality. So he takes over rooms. Right? So at clerks, he's the center of the show and it is not anything he's doing. It's just, that's how some people are like,
1 (36m 42s):
He's not trying to lay low. Right. He's
3 (36m 45s):
Not trying to lay low. And he also loves people I think, and loves human interaction. I mean, from what I know, as we got into this conversation and somehow, and he said, and he said to me, we were talking about acting and we were talking and he said, I'm going to make a movie and you're going to be in it one day. And I said, that's fantastic. I love that. That's great. That sounds great. And then we talked about other stuff and then he said, you know what you are? And I said, what? And he said, you are undeniable. And I was like, what is even happening? And I was like, okay, thanks. Great. He's like, no, no, no. You're undeniable. Like that show is undeniable.
3 (37m 26s):
And I was like, what does that mean? And he said, well, it just means that like eat exists in its truest form unapologetically. And I'm totally paraphrasing here, of course. But it was like, it exists in its truest form. It's just is you don't have to like it. You don't have to like, you, you don't have to like what you're saying, but there is a quality that cannot be taken away about the show. It's more than unique. It's more than that. It's undeniable. You don't have to like it. You don't have to dislike it, but it, it exists on its own. And it cannot be basically cannot be fucked with in, in, in that way, you know? And I was like, whoa, that is awesome. And that I feel like is what I'm going for in my life.
1 (38m 10s):
Yeah. And, and when you told the story before you also said that, that he said, you know, be undeniable continue to be undeniable because that, that is ultimately the only thing that lasts in terms of, you know, the industry or whatever. And as long as you're holding true to, you know, your own undeniable truth or whatever, you can, you know, you can't go wrong. It may not mean that you, whatever, get fame and fortune, but, but you'll be doing, you'll be on the right track.
3 (38m 40s):
You won't be led astray by your undeniable city. Like you, you won't be, it won't be, you won't go in the wrong direction for too long. If you use an deniability as your north star kind of a thing. And it really, and he, he later told Alison, you know, she's, you know, he kept reiterating like she's undeniable, she's undeniable. And he, and Alison had told me, and I, of course, because, you know, I just figure people say that about everybody analysis and no, he does not do that. And also he stands by his word. So you will one day be in a movie with Jeff Garlin and I was like, cool, great. That's fine. But I it's interesting looking back on the story, it's like, I wish everyone is so scared.
3 (39m 24s):
Like I wish that I would have used those quotes in my press, but Alison didn't want to use them because she felt she was already asking too. We're all, we always feel like we're asking too much. So she felt that she, she was asking too much just having him come to the show and having him give notes was enough and having him. And I remember at the time I had a musician as part of the show, you know, his name is Philip Michael scales. He's amazing. And he was like, we should totally use Garland's quotes to get more people to come to the show and both Alison and I, it's interesting, both Alex and I were like, oh no, no, no, no, like he's done enough.
3 (40m 4s):
You know, it's just so
1 (40m 5s):
Like, yeah. Like, and all I'll do to Alison I would've made probably the same choice, but you know, it's like, what are we so afraid of? What skin is it off of his nose? If you say that he said something that he said, you know what I mean? It's not like his reputation is living or dying on your show. It's just,
3 (40m 25s):
I mean, yeah. I would have done the same thing too. And I
1 (40m 30s):
That's the mentality that we've talked about so much on here, and it's definitely true for Hollywood entertainment, whatever, but it may also just be true for life that we kind of inherently have this idea that there's a finite pie. Sure. And you know, it's kind of like the people who think that only whatever 7,000 people are going to heaven, you know, what kind of cockamamie thing is that like you believe in heaven, you believe that all of this is God's plan and that people have been alive for millions of years and yet only 7,000 feet. Right. That to me is like a perfect evidence of the way in which we make ourselves and our, and the possibility so much smaller than they need to be.
1 (41m 15s):
Yes. So you think there's a finite amount of pie and you say, well, I can't take my one, one thousandths of a sliver, you know, that's Jeff Garlin because then there won't be any Jeff Garlin left. Like that's just simply not how it works. It's just simply, you know, anyway, the reason I said generous is because, I mean, you know, whatever, he has a friendship with her, but, but offering the feedback to you and then offering this truth about identifying your and deniability, which I'm guessing was one is one of the things that you carry with you. Okay.
3 (41m 53s):
Yeah. I mean, I do think, I do think that he's, that that was very generous of him. Like, and, and I do think that he and I do carry it with me and, and it obviously had an effect on me because I tell the story and because, you know, we, that you and I started a whole company around the idea of being undeniable, but like, and yeah, it, it really was like an affirmation, right. To just fucking pick a side already, like, like take a stand, like do something like th th th the gold boldly in one direction, because this sort of, this sort of, wishy-washy trying to please everybody, it, it, it not only does it not, it's not, it's a totally unpleasant, it actually doesn't work for the thing that you think you want.
3 (42m 45s):
Like, if you want notoriety power, fame, fortune, you have to pick a side at some point. Okay. But if you also want to feel good and be led, like we're saying by your north star, you could, you could use your, and deniability as a north star to eventually mean that sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly to get to a place where you really feel like you're doing right by yourself. If you follow your undeniable, whatever that means to you. So, yeah, he changed my life. Like that changed my life. I mean, the show did the sh you know, looking back on the show, I spent so much money. I would say, like, to be, if I'm completely honest, it was like a $25,000 investment I made over from 2012 to 2015 or whatever.
3 (43m 31s):
And, and I didn't bring in one dime, you know, I didn't make, make a dime, but it was, I would've done things differently, but I still I'm glad I did it. And, and that's one of the reasons stories. And one of the reasons I'm glad I did it was because I learned that lesson about being undeniable from Jeff Garlin. And yeah,
1 (43m 55s):
I don't think he went to theater school, but he needs to come on the podcast, you know, tell him that and, and, and hear more about his, his thoughts about, and deniability. So, so that you have shared that story with me, which really even moved me. I mean, it's, it's affected me. And then we linked it to this crooked, let's say path that we made, where we were pursuing this creative, creative career. And then we couldn't pursue it because we needed to make money. And we thought it would be okay to do else. And ultimately wasn't. And so the creative urge or whatever is undeniable in us.
1 (44m 39s):
And we're basically having to listen to it instead of, you know, pushing it away. And, and we also have a belief that many, many, many people are in that exact same position at this age in life, they were pursuing something. It wasn't financially viable. They had to do something else. And that when, what we're talking to a lot of people about these days is I think a lot of people who come on the podcast are reckoning with that question. Whether it be when we ask them to come on or while we're having the conversation or in the time after.
1 (45m 21s):
And we hear a variety of things from, from, you know, genuine like bridge equipment is a good example of somebody who went and did something else. And I think she found her thing. Yeah. I feel like therapy. She found the right thing for her. Yeah.
3 (45m 37s):
And she's now taking classes again, though. Acting classes, remember? Cause she wrote us.
1 (45m 43s):
Oh, that's right. Okay. Well, all right. So maybe, so maybe so maybe everybody, but what, we also talked to, a lot of people who I feel are trying to convince themselves, us, that they have moved on and you know, what, if that's true for you, I don't want to take that away from anybody, but it's hard for me to believe that's true for as many people as say it is true because if you, right, if you just, if you have, if you're born with this desire to express, and then you don't exp and you don't do it, it doesn't go away. And,
3 (46m 19s):
And here's the kicker too, is like the secret Willie, we can let everybody in a secret that you and I, because of our childhoods. And then on top of the childhood, the training that we received as actors, and then on top of that, the training we received as clinicians, we are able, here's the secret. We can see things in you that you may not be able to see in yourself or that you think you're hiding. Like that is just the secret.
1 (46m 45s):
And, and I'll say as a person who is fully does this all the time, nobody's hiding anything. I'm sorry to inform you. Nobody, you whoever's walking around. They're saying nobody knows that I, blah, blah, blah. Right? Yes, they do. I mean, they may not say it to you. They may not even have that thought in the front of their mind to everybody does truly know everything. And you're only kidding yourself, right? To, to hide behind, you know, dishonesty,
3 (47m 20s):
You're kidding yourself that you were hiding it and you're kidding yourself that other people can't see it. And you're kidding yourself that it's working for to hide it. But it's easier said than done to not hide it. I'm not saying coming out, coming clean about your truth is easy at all. But I just want to say like, cause people always ask like, and I, I run up against this a lot in Hollywood of like, how could you tell that? Like, so-and-so really, didn't like this script. I'm like, dude, body language. Blahbity blah, blah. And they're like, I didn't get that.
3 (48m 0s):
I'm like, dude, you just have to like, I have training. But also you just have to really, I always say this, but like you have to be sort of a neglected child that then decided that people pleasing was the way to freedom. Then learn that that is actually not true. But then use those skills to actually be like an emotional detective for other people. It's a whole process, but you could do it if you spent enough time, but I can tell like I can, I even at coworking, like I'm going to soundproof booth. So no one could hear me. But like I, I spent five minutes with somebody and I'm like, oh my God, they hate themselves. They hate themselves a passion they're pretending not to, but they hate themselves.
3 (48m 42s):
And that is unfortunate because I know they have redeeming qualities. I haven't talked to them for more than five minutes. So I don't know what that is. And I don't want to talk to them for more than five minutes because I'm not their therapist or friend, but I get it. I get it. It is a super power that I think people who really have trauma and then have chosen to work through the trauma. It's a super power that we have that we can, and it's also can be a burden, like any superpower to really see what the fuck is going on with people and call it out if need be. But we don't always call it out because it's not our job.
3 (49m 23s):
And you know, that is something we run into on this podcast too. It's like, there are times on the podcast where I want to be like, you know, this is just full transparency where I want to be like, you're full of shit. You're full of shit. Totally terrible. You, you, you hate blahbity blah, but you don't want to tell us you hate blabbity, blah. And I understand that because I've been in the same boat and I still am in the same boat, but just know that if you come on this podcast that it kind of behooves you to just tell the truth because what? Yeah. We all see it anyway. Right, right. We just do. We all see it anyway. Yeah. In your voice, we don't even have to look at your face.
3 (50m 3s):
Here's the other thing about human experience? So people think, I think because it's a podcast and it's not, we don't air the video that like, they can also hide shit. Well, your voice and the, and the PA I mean, I'm giving away all the secrets here, but there are no real secrets. Like the pauses in between watching the next person we have come on is gonna be like, okay, anyway. So I feel really bad about everything in my life. And I put the pauses, the pauses in between questions and answers. It's all part of the deal. And so I just encourage people. Like, I want you to come on this podcast and feel like you can, that you you're able to be undeniable and FYI on deniability does not mean everything is great about you.
3 (50m 48s):
Right? Like it doesn't mean, it just means that you're telling the truth about who you are. Good, bad, ugly, weird.
1 (50m 56s):
Yeah. You, you could be an undeniable asshole. There's no, it's a, it doesn't have a necessarily positive connotation, but you know, if you are an asshole and you're, well, that's not a good example. If you are, if you hate yourself, let's say that's a good example. If you hate yourself, you know, you're never going to get to a place where you don't hate yourself by pretending that you don't hate yourself. You have to start with the idea that, okay, here's what I'm up against right now. Hearn's out. I really hate myself. And you know, and I'm going to have to get real about that before I can, because how could you begin to interrogate a problem that you haven't named at all? That's like, that's like, you know, getting, I don't know that to the end of a math problem without having like what the
3 (51m 43s):
She's learning a new language without studying one minute of the language in your life. It doesn't, it's not possible. I mean, you might get one word. Right. But by luck. But
1 (51m 55s):
Yeah. And my thing, and I think this is your thing too in life is just encouraging people and the reason, and I understand why people want to lie to themselves about it because it's painful or because you don't want to be a person who hates yourself. You don't want to be a person who feels unfulfilled by career traces. I get that. But, but it's like that, that you are unfulfilled or you are that you just haven't done the work of accepting.
3 (52m 23s):
Right. And I, and I, I definitely feel like for me, the turning point, literally in my life had to, had to do with, when I had a physical problem with my heart, where I was like, oh, this is what is happening. I haven't taken care of my body for whatever reason. Not because I'm a bad person, but because I've always shit going on and all these issues and hereditary, but I haven't done the work to, to look at this. And so now it's coming, it's now it's, it's, it's a problem. And, and, and when you're laying in the hospitals hooked up to machines and you and people are telling you, it's a problem that are trained specifically in this problem.
3 (53m 7s):
And you finally are faced with, oh, either I'm going to believe this or not, and acknowledge it or not. And I just was like, okay, I acknowledge it. I need to lose weight. I need to move my body and I need to eat less shitty foods and okay. That's it. It's in my face. It's in my face. It's in my face. I'm the
1 (53m 25s):
Hospital. Yeah. My, my wish for it to be something other than it isn't has, it helped me to have it be something other than it isn't. But my, my courage, if, if you can summon the courage to face it, then it might actually be different. So the other thing that you were talking about before was legacy, and that is, that has been a theme in my life recently too, because, you know, I realized after my sister died, like it's all over for her. I, you know how a lot of times when people die, then people will go on their Facebook account and like, write these messages to them.
1 (54m 16s):
You know, I miss you, blah, blah, blah. No, nobody did that on my sister's Facebook page. Nobody and no, nobody and her kids, you know, who are too young, really to use Facebook there that's because it's an old person's thing, but they have Facebook accounts and they had each written something about their mom when she died. And periodically, I checked back in to see like, what the comments are at for first of all, I don't know, 95% of the people who were making the comments, cause I haven't been in their lives, but it really ended like a few, you know, a few days after she died, it ended.
1 (54m 58s):
And I just thought, wow, man, there's just no trace of this first. God, I don't like that. There's yeah. It's it's really unsettling. And so recently we came in to possession of unpublished manuscript that Aaron's grandfather wrote on which sirens grandfather, his dad's dad. Okay. Aaron's grandfather was a, you know, hardcore Chicago in, he was a tool and die maker. He worked in one of these factories where whenever there was factories in Chicago and he retired when he was 70, 70 or 75 and went back and went to college and he was the oldest graduate from Roosevelt university where I teach by the way weird.
1 (55m 58s):
Yeah. And he was a writer and a poet and he wrote a book. Now, dear listeners, I regret to inform you. It's not a great book. You know, he could have used an editor. I'm sure. And, but it doesn't matter. The point is we receive this cream and a half of paper that's wrapped up in like a grocery bag and bound with string and it hasn't been touched
3 (56m 34s):
How'd you get it? How'd you get it?
1 (56m 37s):
His mom had it. And she sent him a bunch of stuff in that, and that was in there. So we opened it up and, and I thought to myself, okay, this is fascinating because one of the things that I think compels people to write is a desire to leave some kind of an imprint. And I'm curious how other people think or don't think or feel, or don't feel about their legacy. I mean, I guess people do it in other ways you get really rich and you name a building after yourself or by the way, they took the Sackler name off the mat. Finally they took the Sackler name off the met. Yes. And oh God.
1 (57m 18s):
Yes. That's a whole other thing. Watch dope. Sick with John who can aprons really good. Yeah. Anyway, people do use philanthropy. I mean, it kind of seems like, unless you're in the arts or rich, how do you have a legacy? What's your, what is,
3 (57m 33s):
This is a great freaking question. Like this is the question that I really been thinking about in my brain. And I, I think I have the answer for me, but I'm not exactly sure. So, all right. So I love to teach, but I love to teach a very specific population. It's a population that is underrepresented in colleges. So I I'm trying to narrow down like what I want to do with my life basically. And I think I want, I know I want to be a writer, but I was like, okay. But my realtor says I have to make 80 to a hundred thousand dollars if I want a house in California.
3 (58m 17s):
Okay. And I'm tired of sitting around, waiting for Hollywood to discover me. Okay. Fine. And us. So what do I do? Okay, fine. So then I've been teaching right at Roosevelt and other places and I love it. I love the 1819 year olds. Okay. Fine. I love teaching acting. I don't know. I feel like I don't really know shit about acting, but I know I do when it's mixed with psychology. Does that make sense? Okay.
1 (58m 44s):
A hundred percent then the other
3 (58m 45s):
Day I was like, and then I was like, okay, but I don't want to teach at a fancy conservatory. Like I don't, that's just, I just don't. So I was like, all right. All right. All right. So then someone sent me a listing to teach a community college, making a $90,000 a year. Community colleges paid better than a lot of colleges. And so I'm applying to teach first year actors at a community college in Glendale. And I don't know, and I don't know, and I actually think it's going to make my writing. And I think it's going to make me hustle in a different way. I don't know if I'll get the job, but I gotta say my legacy might be, cause I thought, okay.
3 (59m 30s):
At first I thought my legacy was going to be, and we could track it with the podcast. Right. Like I thought my legacy was going to be famous actor even though like, I don't know if that's, that is a legacy like Brando and you know, that's a legacy. That's what I thought. I thought, oh, that'll be my legacy. I'll be fancy, famous lady. Okay, fine. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, my legacy is going to be that I'm a very sort of famous PR prolific addictions counselor, like at a social service agency. Yeah. That's going to be my legacy, but that's what I thought, like, that's my mark. That's where I'm going to leave my mark. That did not happen. Then I thought, okay, I'm going to be again, a famous actor, but maybe a solo artist. Right.
3 (1h 0m 10s):
And, and then, and then a screenwriter and I'll get really famous as a television writer, which still could happen. But I was like, I'm not sure that is the flavor of legacy that we're talking. I'm talking about here in terms of service, right. Service. What I want is to teach, I could teach 18, 19 year olds tangible skills that they can use then and move on in their lives and then teach their kids. Like, like that seems more in alignment with what I'm talking about in terms of legacy than just fancy screenwriter.
3 (1h 0m 50s):
That makes a lot of money. So, yeah.
1 (1h 0m 53s):
Yeah, because actually I was just having this thought yesterday, if I was ever given an award that was related in any way to theater, the first person I would think is my junior high acting teacher and teachers truly do leave some of the biggest, like good and bad. Some of the biggest legacies. I remember every single teacher I've ever had. Yeah. And w I mean, I mostly remember the ones who were really good or really bad, but they, I can think of five people off the top of my head who should be canonized as saints, because really Mrs. McDaniels, you were a prima ballerina who ended up teaching math in junior high.
1 (1h 1m 37s):
And you know what she did, she knew that I had just a, I was having a really hard time in junior high. And she invited me to eat lunch in her classroom every day, because I think she was at a Mexican, she didn't eat. And so she could go over the math with me cause I was having a hard time getting it. And I was just having a hard time. Sure. In general, this is seventh grade. And she provided all under the guise of teaching me math. Of course she gave me mentorship. She gave me attention. She showed me love.
1 (1h 2m 19s):
Right. Like what's
3 (1h 2m 20s):
What more could you ask for legacy I'm looking for? I'm not, I decided like, especially during COVID times, I've really been thinking, I think a lot of us have about like, what is obviously important, but also what is lasting and what is, and I thought, yeah. Okay. So, so I don't have a desire to like go into the classroom and teach, you know, I don't wanna teach psychology. I don't want to teach, but I was like maybe. And the thing that like the community colleges in California in Southern California, like I believe Pasadena city college and Glendale community college are two of the best community colleges in the country. So I'm like, okay.
3 (1h 3m 0s):
And it's cheap to go there. And it's a bunch of different kinds of learners and it's not just white kids that are like, I'm fucking going to be the next, I don't know whoever it's like kids that actually want to learn. And I, I mean, look, there's going to be some real assholes in there. I know it. But like I thought, oh, okay. Like also I really, really need a house with a yard. And I don't know how, I don't want to do it by, by getting an office job that I'm gonna die at. And I, and I, and then try to write on top of that.
3 (1h 3m 45s):
So like, I really need more space. And we were looking at houses and this all really was, was sparked by talking to a realtor, a really great realtor who also was like a very therapeutic and his approach. And he was like, listen, do you want a house in California? Yes. Okay. Do you want a two bedroom, two bath? Yes. This is how much money you each need to bring in a year. And this is how much your down payment is going to be act accordingly. He just told me that like, it's not,
1 (1h 4m 16s):
It's not a mystery. It's not an unknowable path. It's just like, no, no, no.
3 (1h 4m 22s):
It's very clear. And he was very loving, but he was also like, you, you piecemealing the piecemealing, your salary together is not going to work for this. And I was like, and I, I needed him to say that too, to know that like, it's time for me to bring in a decent amount of money. Now, if it comes, if it, if, if, if somehow it comes from your mind getting a television show or our documentary taking off. Great. But like, in the meantime, I need to feel like I am, I am not just piecemealing my shit together.
1 (1h 5m 8s):
Right. Because in addition to all the other things we've mentioned, you have a lot other needs that are undeniable and it is much your responsibility to meet those needs your, your need to have, you know, your own space. You need to have address, you know, that's as important to listen to as anything else.
3 (1h 5m 27s):
I had no idea. Like I just thought it's interesting. I, I thought that I did not have those needs. Like I thought, who cares where you live literally. I mean, I've moved 15 times. So it's like, who cares if you live in a one bedroom with two people and a dog, I care. I care a lot now I really care. And it's really, really important to me to be out. So having an outside space,
1 (1h 5m 55s):
And what I hear in this for you is a shift from what does it look like to other people to, what does it feel like inside of me? And it was always more important,
3 (1h 6m 8s):
More important. And it's also super interesting. And I think we run up against this all the time. People think that they're like, oh, you're not going to be an actor anymore. Like you're not going to audition anymore. And I'm like, I don't think so. It's not like it's like I had the other night. I had the experience. So I get off the train right at eight o'clock the day before I got an audition from my agent for self-tape for a show in Chicago, that's a procedural show, you know, and that everyone auditions for in Chicago. And I got a self-tape quick turnaround. I had to get off and I chose to, I got off the train, dropped my stuff, picked up.
3 (1h 6m 50s):
My friend came to coworking and was up til midnight filming this scene. It's not a good scene. I'm not good. I'm not good in the scene because I don't, I'm, I'm not, I was having trouble memorizing because it's late at night. And then, and then I turned to my friend and I just said, you know, and, and I'm not paid, obviously we're not paid for the audition. If I book it, I have to go to Chicago on my own dime, stay in a hotel on my own, or place my own plane fare. I hate to fly to do this thing. That's going to terrorize me on set for a day to make $900.
3 (1h 7m 32s):
What the fuck am I doing? So I turned to my friend and I just said, who was nice enough to stay up with me till midnight, taping this in the fucking coworking space. I turned to her and I said, I don't want to do this anymore. And she said, okay. And she said, okay. I mean, she doesn't give a shit. She's a writer. She's not an actor. She doesn't, but she's like, okay. And I was like, yeah, this is no, no, no, it's not. That is not my legacy.
1 (1h 8m 0s):
Right.
3 (1h 8m 1s):
So it's very clear. So now I'm going to, I'm just, I'm not, I'm having calling my agents
1 (1h 8m 8s):
And you can't know until, you know, I mean, like that reality couldn't hit you until it did. I'm like, no, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, good for you. I mean, part of life is figuring out what it's not, and as much as it is figuring out what it is. Yeah. So
4 (1h 8m 34s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: We're not doing well. What's the hustle for? W
Let Me Run This By You: Is there any such thing as an advocate?
Interview: We talk to Kristin Goodman about horses, One Flea Spare, I Got the Blues, David Dastmalchian, John Hoogenakker, New Mexico, Yellow Boat, performance anxiety, Chicago College of Performing Arts, Michael Maggio, gender differences in conservatory education.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,
2 (16s):
We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? That was the big question. How are you? It's good to see your face.
2 (36s):
It's good to see you too. I am. Oh, I'm not, not great,
1 (41s):
But I am like faking it until I make it, but yeah, you can just start out there.
2 (46s):
Yeah. I didn't sleep. I had conflict in my house yesterday. I'm fighting with the freaking IRS again. And
1 (1m 0s):
Like that that's enough right there. Like that could be, you know what I mean?
2 (1m 5s):
The kid got sick in the night, horribly sick. It's just like,
1 (1m 14s):
It's the shit, the shit of life. You know, the shit of life.
2 (1m 18s):
Yeah. What's the for you.
1 (1m 19s):
Well, before I go on, I just want to say there was a, there was a friend that said that she had this visceral reaction to whenever she felt bad, she traced it back to this time at camp where she was in the cold. This is what you're, you're talking. Your check-in reminds me of, she was in her cold outhouse. This is so gross. But she said there's a visceral or like a bath, the camp bathrooms, not an outhouse, but basically the visceral reaction of a cold wet floor seeing here on the floor smelling.
2 (1m 56s):
Yeah, wait, that's what comes up for her when she's like,
1 (1m 60s):
When she has distressed, she remembers this visceral thing of cold, wet floor, disgusting cold wet floor, seeing smelling poop and seeing wet hair on the floor. That's what reminds me like they all go together for her. Yes. She's really in that. And when she's in that moment, I'm not friends with her anymore. But I remember her telling me this and thinking, oh my God, it's so apt. It's like, that is the thing. It's like this combination of things that come together that just make fucking tear, like not good, you know?
2 (2m 32s):
Good. And that I can really envision that floor. I feel like, I know, I feel like that was, I never went to camp, but I feel like,
1 (2m 42s):
Yeah,
2 (2m 43s):
It's not good. It's not good. And you know, like, I guess misery loves company because you know, I, a bunch of people that I talked to yesterday were like, yeah, it's not good.
1 (2m 55s):
It's similar. I have a similar vibe of like, what is it? You know, I'm S I feel, I mean, it's very strong to say purposeless. I mean, that's, I'm looking for, and I started therapy with this new therapist who I at first thought, oh my God, because she's, she's an older lady. And like, she did that thing of like on zoom. We, we meet on zoom and she did a thing where her camera was fucked up. So I only saw half her face. And I had to be like, Hey, pat, you gotta move the camera. Like I thought, oh, we're in for real. But she's Dr. Pat, Dr. Pat is, I won't say her last name on this in case I ever talked shit about her.
1 (3m 35s):
But anyway, she, she, she, she's turning out to be quite okay and eight and it's through my insurance covers it. So it's not, that's great. But you know, my bar was pretty low because my last therapist was an Orthodox Jewish guy who kept wanting me to have children. So she's better than that. But anyway, in therapy, I'm realizing that like, I'm really searching for what is it like, what is it I'm looking for in life? Not how do I make money? Not how do I get where I want to go? But like, what are the qualities in life that I am searching for?
1 (4m 18s):
I've never asked myself that question in my life. Wow. Okay. That's big. Yeah. Like, and, and there's all this shit going on. You know, my friend here, her, mom's got, Alzheimer's, I'm caring, helping care for her and her. Dad's on life support and it's a mess, but all that stuff is true and it's horrific. But I think that's all the stuff of life that's really shitty. But like the internal, when we've talked about this on the podcast, like my internal stuff is more painful usually than the external. Right. I mean, they, they, they really inform each other, but like the informed internal questions of what are the things, what am I looking for? Like if the, what is the hustle for, what is the, where am I going?
1 (5m 1s):
What the fuck, that's where I'm at. And it's super painful to know, to realize that, like, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. What am I looking for? I, I literally don't and my friend, I have a new friend who's also named Jennifer who said, she asked me this question. And she said, Hey, J boss. She calls me J boss, because someone asked her this as a writing exercise. And I'm going to ask our people this on, on Friday. Anyway. When did you feel when and where do you feel most at home?
1 (5m 45s):
And I'm like, oh, I w my first response was the coworking space. She's like, and, but it's because I feel like I belong here. Like there's a place to belong to. So that question got me on this. It got me really feeling like vulnerable. And, but like, I wanted to ask you that question, like, my answer was, holy shit. I have no idea. And then the true, if I told this to, and I told this to therapy last night, the true answer to that is in practical terms.
1 (6m 29s):
The first time I remember feeling at home was when I went to my partial hospitalization day program. Oh,
2 (6m 37s):
Wow. Oh,
1 (6m 38s):
Wow. And it was the feeling of after my dad died, you know, I was such a mess and had good insurance praise God. And I went there and I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I didn't want to be there, but I had no structure in my life because I'd left LA and had nothing, nothing to do. And I went there and I thought it was the first time in my life being sick. I felt like no one was pretending, not one person was pretending we had all reached the end of the line in the pretending the therapist. Like no one was pretending that we weren't where we were.
1 (7m 19s):
It was unbelievably like shocking, but it was also the biggest relief I've ever felt in my life. Well, that's,
2 (7m 28s):
That's the word I was going to say. I was going to say what it sounds like, what you really felt was relief that you were, I mean, because, and it makes sense that you would have spent your entire life up to that point, figuring out what you had to do to survive, which usually involves making other people happy and feeling responsible for other people's happiness. So the minute, you know, nobody was pretending to be happy. And even if they were, you, weren't in charge of whether or not they were happy that that would feel like a relief. And I, I mean, I haven't had that exact experience, but I do know that, and this is something about myself that I'd really like to change that because of my, the ways I've learned to cope.
2 (8m 10s):
I mostly feel at home when I'm by myself, which is not, it's not really the direction I want. It's not the thing. I want to be like fostering. I want to be fostering a feeling of being at home with the people that I love, instead of feeling afraid that the people I love, you know, can't help me. Can't take care of me. I have to take care of them.
1 (8m 32s):
Yeah. I think it is. I think it's, it's, it's right. It's two sides of the same coin. It's like wanting to be for me. Yeah. Wanting to also for my parents and my people. I loved in the past to take care of me and feel that sense of relief with them, but feeling the opposite and then finding a finally being like there is, and I feel like the people talk about this a lot in 12 step programs where it's like, I was, it's like, we're out of options. So like completely. So I don't like saying hit rock bottom all the time, because it was like the end. I will say the end of the road and payment, Pema, Chodron, you know, the Buddhist monk lady talks about this too.
1 (9m 15s):
Like nowhere else to go, like you're up against your shit. And there's literally nowhere else to run. And so that is like the worst moment. But then I think for me, the moment of admitting and, and saying, oh my God, I have nowhere else to go. I guess I'll surrender to this for me at that moment. In 2006, in may of 2006 or June, it was a day program at a hospital. But like, we can be anything that you just surrender and are like, I need help. Like I cannot, and I don't care where the help comes from necessarily. I'm not picky about it. I haven't had good insurance. So I went to a nice place, but it didn't have to necessarily be nice.
1 (9m 57s):
I was looking for the relief of the, the, the, the, the release of judgment in a group setting. So it could have been anywhere, but it happened to be a great hospital at the time. And so when it was so helpful that she asked me that question, because I was like, oh, I definitely didn't feel at home in my family. Right. So I didn't feel that. And I didn't feel, and I was thinking about the theater school and our podcast. There were moments where I felt at home within, I feel like for the theater school. And I don't know how you feel about this was sort of like a process of, for me feeling like stepping my toe in and feeling at home and then feeling no, not at home.
1 (10m 40s):
And then, so I didn't feel at home, like some people talk about like the drama club and their high school being a refuge and feeling at home. I never felt at home there. So, I mean, that was just a really, so it's a lot of intense stuff happening. I feel like for me and for the people that I love and know, and for me, it was really highlighted with this question, like, when do you feel at home?
2 (11m 4s):
Yeah. And I was like, right. Yeah. No, that's a very good question.
1 (11m 10s):
What about you like alone when you think of that you think of being by yourself?
2 (11m 17s):
Yeah. I mean, I have, I, I'm not, I'm not saying it's my fault, but I have perpetuated, let's say the dynamic wherein I feel alone and nobody can help me because of whatever. I'm not letting them help me. Or I pick people who can't help me or whatever it is. And so I I'm constantly like reaffirming for myself. See, nobody cares about you. You know, you don't have any, like, all you can rely on is yourself. That's the really message that I find myself working really hard to defend and to re affirm.
2 (12m 0s):
And I really don't want to do that. And I'm not suggesting that, like, I, it may be, I need a big paradigm shift, but maybe it's really just this internal work of being like, maybe it just let go. Now, how about serenity right now? How about finding some little bit of peace right now? Instead of thinking when I get blank or when I do blank or when I am blank, it's, that's never, it never, they never comes. I mean, this is the thing that really characterize. I felt like my sister's life, she was, was always, and for her, it was always about money.
2 (12m 43s):
Once I get my little, you know, this amount of money together, then I will. And it was some form of like, then I'll be happy once I get this job that I'll be happy once I get this boyfriend. And then I'll be happy once I get, you know, and you could just do that for literally your whole life and never got there. And I feel like maybe I've been saying to myself, some type of thing like that, I feel superior in some way, because I have this understanding, but really I'm doing the same thing. I'm I'm in internally saying, well, when I find success as a writer or when whatever my kids are older or with, and this just, it just doesn't work like that.
2 (13m 26s):
Because when those things happen, there will just be other problems. Like there's no utopia. There's no like,
1 (13m 32s):
No. Okay. So like mile miles. And I always say like, the panacea isn't even a panacea. Like we thought, you know, him getting a full-time, it's just so amazing how it works. Like him getting a full-time job with all these bells and whistles and all things was going to be the panacea. Well, then it turns out that the, you know, like the paychecks way smaller, because all the full-time job you put into a 401k, you put into that dah, dah, dah, dah, you put, it's not the panacea that you, that it it's just, there is no panacea. Like, and I think that, that, that's what, you know, what the great teachers and stuff that I like say is like, there is nowhere to run. Like
2 (14m 12s):
You stop looking for the place that you gone to. Yeah.
1 (14m 16s):
There is no way or to run you're here. And I'm like, oh my God. And, and I think there was a freedom in that, but with it being for me, but for the freedom, just like before I stepped into the rooms, stepped into the room of my day program, there was a constant fighting of trying to survive and trying to keep going the way I had been going, which was pretending to be fine and pretending to keep it all together and pretending to be whatever, you know, what my mom and my sister needed me to be. My dad was dying and I, for better, for worse. Like, I, I, I literally something cracked.
1 (15m 2s):
And I literally was like, oh, like I talked to the, I remember talking to the intake person and being an, even them just asking me like, what's going on, you know? And I just lost it. And they were like, okay, we'll see you at one eight, 1:00 PM. We'll see you in.
2 (15m 20s):
Right, right. Yeah. For me, the, for me, I really haven't figured out the difference between pretending and like a more healthy acting as if like, okay, it's not great, but I'm going to kind of go along as if it were, I, I really don't have a very good distinction in my mind between when I'm intentionally employing faking it till I make it versus I'm just pretending I'm telling everybody that I'm fine when I'm really not. Like, I haven't figured that out for myself.
2 (16m 1s):
I haven't figured it out. Maybe I haven't like, I don't, maybe I just haven't let myself get there. I don't know whether
1 (16m 10s):
I also don't think. I think again, like I was thinking about like, in the process of feeling at home, and again, I think it's an, it's an, it's a fucking process of yes. And like, sometimes I'm pretending and sometimes I'm doing vacant it till I make it, which is healthy. And sometimes it's just, I don't think for me, it's like, I got part of growing up, obviously in an alcoholic home is like the black and white thinking. Right. So it's like all or nothing. Like I have to be a total mess all the time and that's fine. And that's embraceable, or I have to be like stoic and I can, and I think some days for me is like, I'm able to really embrace the fake it till you make it in a healthy way.
1 (16m 54s):
And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do the things, walk the dog, do the, did a bit, a bit of it. And some days are just like, oh my God, I can't. But it's, yeah. It's figuring out which days are, which, and also, especially, you know, their shit to be done. Like if especially as seriously. And I, I mean, I don't mean to say this as like, but especially as parents, like there is shit to be done. I'm a dog owner, their shit to be done. So can imagine parents, if, if we parents are completely responsible for the wellbeing of their children and we know my parents didn't do a great job, they did the best they could. It wasn't good enough.
1 (17m 34s):
So like, there is a real thing about like, people depend on us to do shit. And so there is this
2 (17m 42s):
And you, you may not have kids, but you have that with, I mean, a lot of people rely on you at various times for various reasons. So really it's the same thing.
1 (17m 52s):
You can call me a people pleaser. There's also a thing of like, you, people I can call myself or other people can call me a codependent people pleaser, but the lady in the diaper still needs to go to the bathroom. So like, am I going to let her eat it? You know what I mean? Like, there's work to be done. I can't always do the work, but I think there's a part of me. And this is in my DNA. That's like, if a person is suffering and I can help not kill myself, but if I can help, then I do feel like it's my duty to help the lady go to the bathroom like that. I just, and so, you know, and there's people that are like, oh, you, you know, there's, we love to tell people, especially women, you're doing too much.
1 (18m 32s):
You need to do self care. You need to think about yourself. And I'm like, fuck you. You know what, I, I often can find that pretty like demeaning and also like angering, obviously, you know, anger comes up when people are like, this it's like the toxic positivity, but it goes beyond that. It's like toxic shaming for what we should be doing to take care of ourselves. Yeah.
2 (19m 0s):
Right. It's just the same thing as you know, is what it's purporting to be fighting against. Yeah. There's a lot of fine lines. I feel, I, you know, I think like the pendulum has really swung in terms of just having this conversation about self care. So, you know, I, I think it really does have to go that way before it can kind of shake out in the middle, but we are in this thing. I mean, for awhile, it was just probably so gratifying and in such a relief for people to be able to go online and see these positive messages and, you know, have these ideas introduced to them about taking care of yourself and having boundaries. But a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.
2 (19m 43s):
And you know, you can't go around calling everybody a malignant narcissist, and you can't go around saying that every time you want to do something you want it's, self-care, it's, you know, there's a lot of distinctions to be made here and, you know, and I'm there. And there's a lot of distinctions for me too. That's the phase of life I think I'm in right now, I'm trying to make some distinctions between, okay. So I'm not, I'm not just doing the whole reacting to everybody thing, which has defined my life up into very, you know, rather recently, but the answer is not to, just to go in the direction of whatever the opposite of that is.
2 (20m 24s):
The answer is to find the middle ground and people who are black and white thinkers, like me struggled to find the middle ground Conversation with somebody where I was complaining that this person who I pay, not a therapist, but, you know, I pay to do something for me that I can't do for myself. You know, I was saying to this other person like that, this guy is not advocating for me and the person I was talking to said, nobody advocates for anybody.
2 (21m 5s):
There are no advocates. And I was like, Hmm, what is that true? I maybe, I mean, I, I really like, it kind of stumped me a little bit like, okay, there's no advocates, what does that mean? Is that
1 (21m 23s):
More, or no, you just left it at that.
2 (21m 29s):
Everything is, you know, I mean, I guess their point was like, everything is up to you, which is, you know, actually something I'm actively trying not to buy. I'm trying to buy into the idea that I am not in control of everything. Right. So
1 (21m 46s):
Was this person, well, I won't ask who this person is, but I will say that sounds like a lawyer.
2 (21m 54s):
Well, it sounds like a really dejected person, right? Like,
1 (21m 60s):
Or person talk like that a lot. Cause I know, cause I'm married to one and he doesn't go that route, which is why he was probably not a great lawyer, but in some ways, you know, but hearing him talk about lawyers, that's a very sort of lawyerly thing to do, which is there is no one on your side. Really. There is just you and your willingness to make your life work, make your shit work and to speak up for yourself. And no one really knows yourself like you, so you it's up to you. But it, for me, it really is a dangerous stance because it also, it also sort of makes me angry in that when I was a worked in social services, I was a huge advocate.
1 (22m 53s):
And sometimes people's only advocate now, did I do it perfectly? No. And like, did I actually make a difference? You could argue that in court either way, but like I was their advocate and I think they're our advocates, but I think there is something, there is some truth in the fact that like we have, we, we have to take care of our yeah, we, we have, we have to take
2 (23m 17s):
Care of ourselves and well, that's for sure. But that's for sure. I think
1 (23m 20s):
Our advocates look, there are fucking Abbey. If you look at like, yeah, there are advocates.
2 (23m 25s):
Well, that's the reason I wanted to run it by you because I think of you as an advocate, I think I've seen you advocate for people professionally and personally and in your career as a therapist and in your career as a friend and in career as a writer. Yeah. Yeah.
1 (23m 41s):
So I mean, and I think that I take great pride in that and it can lead to like, we're talking about like a lack, a lack of, I wouldn't even say self care, but I can get run down and tired as shit and exhausted. But I was just saying, as I was walking into the co-working space and I was talking to an unhoused guy and helping them out with something and giving them a code and blah, blah, blah, because I had the shit in my trunk. It wasn't like, you know, so I'm giving this stuff to it. And I thought, oh right. If, if being, I did say if being a helper makes me a people pleaser, then I think I'm just going to have to own that because I, I, I cannot stand, I believe by and watch as people suffer without, without trying, because I feel like then there's no.
1 (24m 33s):
Oh. And it comes down to this, like when I was in the, my worst place, people helped me. that's the truth.
2 (24m 42s):
Yeah. And also let's be clear. I mean, being a people, pleaser is only a problem. When, you know, a person is like subverting, their, all of their own wants and needs in any given situation for the, that's not, that's not any type of helping is not necessarily, you know, pathological.
1 (25m 3s):
Right. And I think it's really good. You said that because like in LA, there is this whole thing about like your, your people, like you go, you know, whatever, look out for number one, kind of a situation. And like, you don't have to be rescue anybody and everyone's, and I'm like, that's fine. But, and also what are you going to do when seriously, an unhoused encampment creeps up on your lawn then? So like all of this, we, we all do things for ourselves has helped us to get into this mess. So when there's an unhoused person living on your front lawn, tell me what, what, what do you suggest like, cause what we've been doing every man and woman for themselves, isn't quite working out for us. So like, mean
2 (25m 44s):
That they're not
1 (25m 45s):
At all. And there is a part of me and this is a larger conversation that, that we can have at another time. But like that does think that Hollywood, like the service component being of service is so lacking in this industry. There is no, at least in social services, like there is a service component. It may not go perfectly, but there is really no wing of Hollywood that is a service component or a helping component. Right.
2 (26m 17s):
If it is it's, it's tied up in a lot of like, people's vanity.
1 (26m 22s):
It's interesting to me. So I mean, you know, I, but yeah, I, I think that advocate that we, an ICU is, and I do, I see most parents that I respect and love also are advocates for their little people all the time, 24 7 with systems, with other people, with their families. It's like, so I think without advocates, we're fucked.
2 (26m 47s):
Absolutely. And, and you know, like maybe the answer when, when you, when anybody is looking at any situation and saying there's no, this, or there's only this, this all in all or nothing, black and white, that's really that's diagnostic like,
1 (27m 7s):
Right. I think anytime you're on a date, you meet a new friend you're interviewing for a job. If the person you're talking with is living in a black and white world where there is evil and good and dah, dah, dah, you're, you're an I'm in real trouble. Like, I don't think I can work with those people because even if they're fancy and pretty and cute and to, you know, I don't think it's going to work out just because then I'm going to fall into the camp of either I'm good or evil and that's going to switch,
2 (27m 36s):
Right. Yes. Because you can never just be one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Stop trying to everybody stop trying to make everybody else one thing or another
1 (27m 46s):
It's our brains that are trying to like put things into boxes, but it right, right. It really gets us into, into me anyway, into a shit ton of trouble with my marriage, with everything when I'm like, oh yeah, the dog can never go to the bathroom in the house again. Okay. Well, right. Like good luck with that. Like I, it doesn't work.
2 (28m 7s):
Oh, good luck to you on your journey with your perfectionist.
1 (28m 11s):
I mean yeah. If it would've worked, we would've really cornered the market on that. Absolutely. Yeah. Like if really, right. It's really just trying to do what other people wanted me to do and to, and to really have no voice worked. I would have been the best version of myself 20 years ago
2 (28m 33s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Kristin Goodman, Kristin trained as an actor, but she is also a director, a playwright, even it has a history as a comedy writer. She's a horse officio, natto and lives in New Mexico with her husband who is also an actor. And we had a really interesting conversation about gender in theater training. And she has some really interesting thoughts. So please enjoy our conversation.
0 (29m 1s):
Well,
2 (29m 22s):
Okay. Kristin Goodman, congratulations. You survived theater school to survive as an MFA. You did you study also theater in undergrads
1 (29m 33s):
And theater. I started out in biology.
2 (29m 37s):
Oh, wow. So you made a real left turn to get
4 (29m 41s):
My father basically. So said your dad's a scientist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but it wasn't for, you know, I failed constant. I was just, I failed biology twice. So I was like, Hmm. Maybe as a biology major, you fail. Yeah. I realized I wanted to play a biologist on TV. Yes.
2 (30m 5s):
Much more fun than actually being
4 (30m 7s):
A buyer. That was really where I was going to get to be a biologist. Yeah. Yeah. And so,
2 (30m 13s):
But ma you must've done theater or something like that in school to give you the idea that that was what you could switch into.
4 (30m 21s):
Honestly, when I was in high school, I took drama because my friends were in it and they said it was an easy grade. And so I did that. I was not good. There was no training in my school. Like it was like, you, you knew what theater was. I didn't. So like, I remember doing scene studies and I was like, oh, I have to learn my lines. Oh, so sorry. So I didn't have a clue, but my best friend at the time was working at a comedy club downtown in Austin. And so I started writing material with her. And so we would spend our weekends downtown on sixth street at this comedy club writing material and hanging out with like grown-ass adults and doing that.
4 (31m 9s):
So that's what I started to learn. Yeah. That's how I learned to write comedy. And then my government teacher, it was during the Bush to caucus run when they were running against each other. And he, he gave us some ideas. He was sort of a really great mentor. And so she and I did a Bush Dukakis debate in class where we personally did them. And so we just started writing comic material and doing that. Which one were you? I was Bush. Yeah. I wish we had video, man. I would say. And then later, like that summer he was teaching summer school and he said, can you guys do this debate for my summer school class?
4 (31m 55s):
We were like, sure. Why not figure we go into a classroom. It was like an assembly of like all the kids who hadn't passed certain that, and they were laughing their butts off. So it was sort of, I was like, oh, this feels good. I like this. And then I went to a women's college where it was liberal arts school and I was still studying biology. But my second year there, I took a theater film class. And that was what made me go, oh, oh, I was taking photography. I was doing arts. You know, I was drawing, I was just doing that kind of side. But then when I transferred to university of New Mexico, I was going to go to photography program and I walked into the theater section and I just started wandering the halls and it wound up in the Dean's office and she ha she's smoking Capri cigarettes.
4 (32m 48s):
She's like coming up set am, what do you want to do? And I was like, I think I'm going to be a playwright. And she was like, all right, let's sign you up. So she signed me up and I transferred into there and I had Mac Wellman was one of my instructors. And he's extra crone from the Venezuela and Digby Wolfe who wrote for Laugh-In. Yeah. So, but ultimately I changed my degree to acting because I'm a horror for attention. And people kept telling me I was a really good actor. And I was like, really? They were like, yeah, you should be an actor. And so I just went into acting instead took me awhile.
2 (33m 29s):
That's that's not typical that you would that a person. I mean, in terms of the people that we've interviewed, starting as a writer, going to be an actor and now returning to writing among other things. So you didn't ultimately find acting that fulfilling or
4 (33m 46s):
Acting was I loved rehearsal. I loved figuring out the characters and playing once it got to performance, it was, it just, I didn't, I'd never understood the crossover. I never, I didn't nobody ever talked to me about, well, you can keep playing. It was about the product that everybody kind of pushed and I felt too much pressure and it just too much anxiety. And I was kind of miserable every time. Yeah. Very miserable.
5 (34m 23s):
That crossed my mind. When you were talking about writing in Austin, I'm like you that's the makings of a Saturday night live writer like that. A lot of, did you ever think about like, doing that? Cause I'm like, fuck, if you were writing as if you were a teenager, right. Would you ever be like, I want to write for so, cause that's what I was like, she should have room for Saturday.
4 (34m 48s):
Yeah. I didn't, it never occurred to me. I didn't, I was very, I was just, I was so confident in everything that I did that I never could discern what was, what I really wanted to do. And at my parents was pretty absent. So, you know, going into theater, I also had, when I got after my second year at this women's college, I went back to Austin for the summer. And I Reno, there's a comedian performance artist from New York named Karen Reno. And she was workshopping a one-woman show called Reno and rehab, something like that, or out of rehab or something like that.
4 (35m 30s):
And Evan, you knew LIS was the director. She had come out of New York also and she needed an assistant. So I got that gig working for her. And her producer was Chula Reynolds, who was Ann Richards campaign manager. And so I was hanging out with them all summer and working and at the end of that run or that workshop, Chula and Evan and Karen took me to lunch and said, you need to decide what you're doing because you're interested in politics. You're interested in entertainment. What do you want to be behind the camera in front of the camera? And they were just like, you need to focus, get your shit together.
4 (36m 10s):
So these very powerful, strong women basically were like, smacking me upside head saying, you don't know what you're doing, but you need to do you have an idea? So like, let's help her. So that was kind of the catalyst to me going. I think that's what clicked when I walked into that Dean's office was right. This is what I want to do. I don't want to be a photographer. I don't want to be a biologist. All these, you know,
2 (36m 38s):
Why do you think it was you? You said, because I was so confident in so many things. I had a hard time figuring it out, but is that really what it was? I mean, looking at your, with your adult eyes now, is it that you were just good at a lot of things? And so, or was it, did it have something to do more with figuring out what other people?
4 (36m 59s):
Yeah, probably absolutely. I thought it was confidence. So it was more about being confident that I could fulfill that for other people and for myself, instead of really hearing my own voice and hearing like what made me excited to wake up and work and do, regardless of the outcome,
5 (37m 23s):
Did you, did you, when you had that sort of talk with those women, how old
4 (37m 27s):
Were you? I was 19.
5 (37m 30s):
Holy shit. And did you keep in touch with them?
4 (37m 33s):
I did with Karen Reno for quite some time. And I just reconnected with Evan briefly on like LinkedIn, but not much after that, you know, when you're that young, you're just sort of like flying through the atmosphere, trying to grab on to anything that like feels good or, yeah,
5 (37m 55s):
I'm just so like in all the fact that they sat you down and believed enough in you, or I don't know what their motivation was, but it sounds to me like they fucking gave a sh you know, the game of shit to sit down with you at 19. I wish some also you were like assisting at 19 on a professional. I mean, that is, did you have over responsible as a kid or how did 19? I was like dating skateboarders and drinking. How did you end up seeing, so it's such like a go getter, kind of a gal.
4 (38m 29s):
Well, my dad he's German and he learned how to parent in the bootcamp and the Navy. And then, you know, we always, I always had horses and so I was always, you know, it wasn't, I wasn't watching Saturday morning cartoons, you know, I was outside and I was working and there were chores and it was so responsibility was something that I kind of was innately built into my, whether I liked it or not.
2 (38m 60s):
Yeah. So you mentioned horses and that's been a big part of your life, including you trained animals for film or
4 (39m 9s):
So when we move to was a ringleader, we moved to Los Angeles. I still had my salary from the Chicago college performing arts, where I was an associate acting professor. So I had that for the summer and then I needed to make money. And we were living right in Hollywood and up the road was a little boarding, stable, like sort of outfitter for like trail rides. And my friend who I wrote comedy with at, in Austin, she was living there and she said, oh, you should go up there because they have horses. And so we went up there and I S then they were looking for a manager, like an office manager.
4 (39m 49s):
So I went up there and started working for them. And as time went on, I was teaching horseback riding lessons to just your average Joes or actors who needed it, I would take like celebrities on rides and stuff and do that, which was super weird and interesting, but it was great
5 (40m 13s):
Intimate. Like when I've done horseback riding, when I did like a trail ride, it was just me in California and the trail guide. And it's an intimate thing to be on a horse with just it's quiet except for the horses. So like, was it like intimate? Did you talk to these people and get to know like how
4 (40m 33s):
Sure. Yeah, no, it was, it was, yeah, it was interesting. And you kind of, there was really nobody that I was, I mean, there were big, big name people, but nobody that I was like, oh my God. Like I, but I couldn't handle talking to at that point. I think, especially when you're the Wrangler, you know, you've got a responsibility and so they're, they're automatically sort of listening to you. So you kind of have a leg up and it's not about them being famous. It's about them being like, please, I don't want to die. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.
2 (41m 13s):
Not many people I don't imagine are in the position of, in that situation, training an actor, a trait, a horse, having expertise in both their area and yours. Did that come up in conversation with, with the people that you were working with and if it did, did it help
4 (41m 30s):
You do your job? Absolutely. Because if you understand how to maintain your objective and under, and stay in your character and be confident on the horse, then you're doing a good job. If, if you're freaking out about the horse, you're never gonna sell that. You're whoever you're supposed to be on that horse. So, yeah. Yeah.
2 (41m 52s):
It's an acting. I mean, I've never ridden a horse, but I'm kind of hearing you say, like, everybody needs to do a certain amount of acting on a horse because you have to project a kind of conscious
4 (42m 2s):
Oh yeah. And you can tell, I mean, my God, you can tell when you're like, oh, that person's should have taken some lessons before they plop them on that horse. The amount of people that get on horses and movies that aren't well-trained enough and do stuff astounds me, like astounds me, but
5 (42m 25s):
Dangerous for everybody involved. Right. The horse, the human, the whole, I just have this really a lot of respect for you in terms of, I mean, for a lot of reasons, but one of them is the horses. When I have been on a horse, the experience has been show intense. And so tra I had to trust, I've never had to trust anything that was alive. As much as I trusted being on that horse, you know, on a plane, it's like a horse. I was like, oh, Tammy was her name. And I said, Tammy, you, me and you, we're gonna, we're gonna get through this. And she was amazing, but like, it's, it's, it's a real, and they're huge. Like you don't think, oh, of course you're like, it's a huge animal.
5 (43m 8s):
And anyway, I think that that part is fascinating. Are you still doing, you have your New Mexico? Do you have horses and do you train them? Do you?
4 (43m 16s):
I do well last October we bought a horse property and moved to it. So I have five horses. Yeah. That's so cool. It's pretty great. It really, I did it. I did it for myself, but I ultimately did it for my daughter because she wanted a horse and it was during that pandemic, the beginning. And I was just kind of watching her just slowly getting more and more enclosed. And I was like, no, this isn't. So when I found the property and we decided to do it, you know, now her window overlooks, like are our nine acres and the barn.
4 (43m 58s):
And she gets, you know, she finished schoolwork yesterday and she just ran out there and rode two of her horses and spent the whole day down there. So
2 (44m 8s):
That's fantastic. That's very special thing you're
4 (44m 11s):
Providing for her. It's pretty satisfying.
2 (44m 14s):
So getting back to the theater school. So you did, you did theater in undergrad, but how did that compare to DePaul and doing the MFA and having this very intense acting program?
4 (44m 29s):
It was not even close. You know what, by the time I graduated, I didn't from undergrad. I didn't know what I was doing. I still, which is why I went to grad school. I was like, I can't go out there. I, what the hell I'm doing? Because I spread myself with the playwriting and then into the acting. And I just felt like I hadn't experienced or had the amount of, yeah. I just felt not prepared. And there was a friend who Eli had gone to school with at DePaul who was there at UNM for the graduate directing program. So he was like, you should audition for DePaul.
4 (45m 9s):
And so I auditioned for three schools and DePaul was one of them. And then I got in and it was, yeah, it was a really big wake up call for someone who I hadn't had a lot of movement. You know, the most dance I had done was I did flamenco because I was at UNM and they had like the best program. So I was like, well, that's what I'm going to do, but it doesn't really prepare you for movement on stage, in a very fluid way, but it helped. I'm sure it helped. And I hadn't had the Linklater. I hadn't had the, you know, the, just the training that I wound up with.
4 (45m 54s):
So it was, it was intense for me, very intense. It was a lot. It was it intense for you emotionally or just in terms of like acquiring a new set of skills socially? Not socially, but emotionally and like, yeah, physically acquiring all those skills and connecting all the dots and really just me with all my like guards up and all the, I really didn't know how to play. Honestly, I didn't grow up playing. I grew up working and so playing, you know, when I worked at the comedy place in Austin, that was playful, but I didn't equate the two for some reason.
4 (46m 37s):
And so when I got to DePaul and you know, Rick Murphy's asking me to play, I could improv because I had been an improv group in undergrad and I had done all that stuff before I got there. In fact, the, the MF, the guy that was there for a master's program, he started this improv group. So he taught me everything. Rick had taught him. Oh. So by the time I got to DePaul, I knew how to do everything. Rick was teaching. So I had fun, but I was still, I guess the biggest thing was I was so aware of how much money it was costing and how a debt I was going, that there was a side of me that was like, I better be good, like this better work.
4 (47m 19s):
And there was a lot of pressure to like, be an and learn and evolve into something that was going to pay off for me. And I think it kind of hampered my playfulness in some ways.
5 (47m 35s):
It's interesting. I mean, I think that that is so, and you could talk about this too, cause you're on sets now, but like this it's, it's the sense of place. I mean, I think that's maybe what I'm talking about about the heart, the schism that exists between when we're, when we're told to be playful, especially like in a Rick Murphy kind of a way, and really have a sense of, of, of joy about the work. But then there, there comes a transition where it's not play at all. It's like serious business. And I don't think I ever knew how to mix the two and that's why my acting isn't good. Like really, like, I don't know. I'm not, I'm just saying like, I don't think I ever learned how to bring the joy back to set.
4 (48m 19s):
Yeah. Yeah. It's
5 (48m 22s):
That I'm like, oh yeah, I never have fun on set. I always feel like I'm going to die. So like, but I didn't feel like that class.
4 (48m 29s):
I didn't feel that way in Murphy's class either. I saw it all around me. And when, when I, when the third year when we were mixed with the undergrads is when I really became aware. Because as a graduate student, you know, your acting professor could say something to you that was kind of shitty. And you could say, oh, go fuck yourself. Like, cause you're like, you know, I'm 22 years old, go fuck off. Like yeah. You know, and, and they would be like, oh, and you would be like, well, no, seriously go fuck off. Like, I don't need that. It still hurt. But you didn't, you didn't have that.
4 (49m 12s):
You know, when you're an undergrad, what I noticed the undergrads was it was, it was really, it could be very intense. And what I really thought, what I really noticed in the undergrads was the difference between the experience of the women were having an experience that men were having. I really felt like the women were pitted against each other or they were, or just in general society, that's what was happening. So there was so much competition between the women that it was agonizing to watch my friends, like, like just sobbing and bathrooms and like hating each other and not being supportive of one another and really like taking out their own insecurities on each other.
4 (50m 0s):
And when I saw the, the males that were an undergrad, there was just sort of like, Hey, that's great. I'm so glad you got that part. I wish I got it. Let's go have fun anyway. And it was just like, what are they giving them? What's going on?
5 (50m 15s):
And you had gotten to an all women's college, right? So like you,
4 (50m 20s):
I knew what w women were like, and it wasn't like that at the women's college that I was at the liberal arts school. I mean, it was very supportive and, you know, people do shitty stuff, but nothing where it was like, you were trying to con you were, you weren't competing with the other person. But I, I witnessed a lot of that just as an upper, you know, a graduate student watching the undergrads, really just squabbling for parts and not
5 (50m 53s):
That's quick. It's so interesting. And also, I'm just thinking of our interview with, with John who can Acker and Dave , who were competing all the time and yet loved, managed to love the shit out of each other as they went through and their relationship only grows stronger and stronger. And then you turn and there's women that started out being friends and at the end of undergrad, hated each other and never talked to each other. Again, it was still such a different, I never dawned on me, never Dawn on me until you said that, that there could be that disparity between discrepancy and, and, and
4 (51m 29s):
It was a very different experience for women. I felt, and I don't know what it's like now, but, but I, it was, it was hard to watch. It was really hard to watch
2 (51m 40s):
Also thinks that that was true for the MFA program that, that, that, no.
4 (51m 45s):
Okay. Not in my experience.
2 (51m 49s):
So then what did you like, what did you do with that awareness at the time? Did you talk to anybody about it or were you just kind of like, Ooh, don't touch that with a 10 foot pole.
4 (51m 59s):
I don't think I had the wherewithal to really recognize it. I just kind of saw it and steered clear of it. I mean, there were some graduate student, friends of mine that did get into that mix where they would start to bad mouth, another actress, or talk about how it wasn't fair or, you know, that kind of a thing. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't stick my toe in it. There was a really nice moment, like toward the end, very end of my time there, when we were in scene study class with Mike Maggio, and I remember two of my friends were up there acting, and it was sort of a train wreck.
4 (52m 42s):
And he was like, let's just come in. We'll just sit down and talk. I don't know if you were in this class, Jen, but he goes, he gathered everybody around. He was like, eat, you guys know that nobody's going to die. Right? Like that, this is just a play. This is not life and death. You can have fun up there and nobody's going to die. Are we, are we all in agreement with that? And I was like, thank you. Somebody finally said it.
5 (53m 11s):
What a relief.
4 (53m 12s):
Yeah. And everybody was kind of just staring at him like what? And I was like inside my head, just thinking, God, thank God. Somebody finally said this to these people because it was
5 (53m 25s):
So interesting because he was the one really closest to death in terms of his physical
4 (53m 30s):
Life. So he knew like, look, this is play. Like, why aren't you enjoying yourself?
5 (53m 37s):
My God.
2 (53m 38s):
Yeah. Yeah. There was just such a, I mean, we've talked about this a lot on here. There was just such a preciousness that the, that the, I think I'm trying to unpack, like why, why was it like this? And I think one part of it could be that the R the undergrad professors really took consultants quite seriously and talked about, I think what they were trying to do was talk about the craft in a way that engendered, you know, reverence from the students. But it wasn't articulated enough to say that you could step out of that at times.
2 (54m 18s):
You didn't always have to carry the mantle of like my crap, you know? And cause I just remember taking everything quite seriously.
4 (54m 29s):
Sure. Yeah. I would, I would, yeah, I did at times too. I mean, you know, my husband who was my boyfriend at the time would find me, like in my closet, crying, listening to Tori Amos really loud, you know, like, and he'd be like, are, are you okay? Like you just had to have an emotional outlet and
5 (54m 50s):
You feel supported like as a grad student or as a human that did you have like a circle of friends you felt supported there and like made good friends and like felt where I I'm like obsessed with this idea of feeling at home today. And like, did you feel at home amongst your people there?
4 (55m 8s):
Yeah, I did. I mean, I had a different experience in that I had this boyfriend, so I kind of had this life outside of the school, whereas other people were going to parties and they were hooking up and they were experimenting. And I wasn't part of that social circle, but I felt supported by my friends. So I didn't, you know, if they weren't supportive, I had no idea, but more often than I felt supported, you know, I, I remember after like our first intro, we were doing that, David Hare play that I hate so much. I can't remember the name of it.
4 (55m 48s):
Yeah. I think it's skylight. Ugh, that frigging thing. And I, we finished like the second performance or something and we were cleaning up the classroom and Murphy walked up to me and he goes, you, you got that. You got that monologue finally. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, the second one though, it's still aren't there. And Tisha was standing next to me. She goes, would you shut the fuck up? Leave her the fuck alone. What's wrong with you? And he was like, oh. And she was like, give her a fucking break. I was like, yeah, give me a break.
4 (56m 28s):
I'm working here. And he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But oh, that's great. So we did do that for each other and we did like stick up for each other because we, you know, when you're at that point and you know, I don't know about the undergrads, but all the grad students were paying for their way. Like there was no doubt everybody was paying their way. So you kind of had, you felt valid in saying, you know what? I don't need that I'm paying you. We thought they were, are supposed to be our parents and you didn't right. Oh God. Yeah. They were, they were, are equals to a certain degree. We felt. And so when, when these conversations would come up, at least from my perspective, I don't know if other grad students felt this way, but you know, I had a couple of really good friends who were really talented, who just left.
4 (57m 17s):
They're like, nah, I'm not going to do this. And you know, they have, they have a great life. I'm still in touch with them. And I think that you kind of have to want to be stripped down. You, you kinda have to want to have your ego dismantled to see what's underneath it. And, and I think that as actors want that writers kind of want that to find out what's in there. And so I think there was something to what they were doing that was really beneficial. My big thing that I think all conservatives, all conservatory training programs should have because of my experience in my third year, there would be that you need to have some kind of, they teach you how to get into character.
4 (58m 3s):
They teach you how to use things from your emotional life and PO so that you can just jump right in, but they don't teach you how to take it out. There's no decompression. Like they don't put you through. They don't have a technique and the tools for you to like release it. So when my third play that from my, my last year there, I did all the last three shows I did at victory gardens. Right. At one fleece, you were brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Well, I went really, I went from one flea spare right into, I got the blues. It didn't have a break.
4 (58m 43s):
And I started having panic attacks at dress rehearsal for, I got the blues. That was my first panic attack was onstage dress rehearsal. I got the blues and Hoka knocker was sitting across from me and I was talking. And then all of a sudden I just stopped talking and I was very aware of the exit sign. I was very aware of like where I was, except I thought I feel so different. What's going on? And Hogan lockers, just looking at me. And he said, as said something else to me. And he said something else to me. And all of a sudden, I just started talking again and we're back. But after that, I was like, I'm not doing this. I can't, I'm not, can't go on stage again.
4 (59m 24s):
So I had to manage panic attacks all through that run. And then
5 (59m 31s):
How did you do it? Did you get help?
4 (59m 34s):
Eli's uncle's a psychologist in Chicago. So he got me some Klonopin. Great. And I was able to do every single show and every single night, Lisa volt would have to push me on stage. Like she would stand right behind me and just push me. And then I would just go into auto drive, complete auto drive. And it was, yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I probably could have done a better job in that play, but I was definitely on auto-drive, you know, I was like,
5 (1h 0m 8s):
Yeah, I, you know, I S I started having panic attacks at my fourth year in DePaul or 30 or DePaul two. And I can't imagine, and I wasn't in a show. It did, like I was in yellow bow, but then it ended and I had a break from it. But the fact that you were able to continue. Like now I look at, I watch performances since being, having an anxiety disorder and performers in a different way. Like being able to manage panic while being another character and remembering it is like, this is a miracle, it's a miracle to me so that you got through it. I don't give a shit if you didn't fucking Merrill.
5 (1h 0m 51s):
Holy shit. Holy shit. I think that's brilliant. And also afterwards, you must've been, how did you feel? Were you like, what the fuck was that?
4 (1h 0m 60s):
So I have panic attacks, you know, all through. I mean, I was just taking Clonopin. I was, when we went to LA for the showcase, I had to manage it, then that whole summer. And then I finally got therapy and the like 10th session with the therapist, we were going through my life, you know, then finally she said to me, tell me about the play before I got the blues. And that was one police bear. And I said, oh, so she's just telling me this story. Tell me about it. And I started, I started from the beginning, but what I realized, I mean, by the end, I was just sobbing. I was a disaster. What I realized was I, I didn't know the difference in my brain between what Naomi had written and what I had created for my character.
4 (1h 1m 48s):
It was just a whole life that I created inside of myself. And that had things that I had created. So they were mine. And that play is a woman who's scarred from the neck down, from a fire, from saving her horses and her husband who won't touch her and this little girl. And, you know, there's the plague. And in the end, the little girl helps her kill herself with a knife. And then they shroud me and the Matt who was playing my husband and we're dead. And then Dave, who played the guard has this big monologue where he walks in front of us and he loved that monologue. And it took a while.
4 (1h 2m 33s):
Yeah. Day one thinking about me, like in a corset, under a blanket, try not to breathe, you know, he was performing. So that whole time I was just repressing, repressing, repressing all these emotions after killing myself on stage. And then I would go off stage and just breathe and then go on with my day. So when I started rehearsals for, I got the blues, it just stayed repressed. And then when I had my first panic attack, it was things like, I didn't want to be near knives. I kept thinking about why do I keep thinking about killing myself? Like there were all these things that I just hadn't added up with the fact that I had created a whole life and I'd done a good job from all my training.
4 (1h 3m 16s):
Like all that recall. And, you know, being able to walk on stage and have this whole history and this moment that it happened off stage, it worked, it all worked. It was all great technique. But again, nobody taught us how to compress all that shit. How do you get all that out of you so that you can move on to the next character or on with your life without carrying around with you,
2 (1h 3m 40s):
Right? Yeah. And this has come up a lot on the podcast and sometimes we've done this, I'll do it with you. Let's do a thought experiment about if we could have dictated the terms of that rehearsal process for you and somebody could teach you how to unpack decompress, what would it look like? Would it look like somebody on staff? Like, would it be sort of like having an AED, but maybe somebody who's trained in?
4 (1h 4m 8s):
I think someone who's either trained in trauma or mental health because every, I mean, every great play has conflict. Every, every story has conflict. So there's going to be trauma. And how are you going to find that within yourself, you're going to go to that place that has trauma in you to access that vulnerability. Right? So if you have somebody on staff, who's either trained in somatic movement, something that like you can like, then they take the actress from that play. And they do two days of movement to release all this stuff out of their bodies. Since DePaul was all movement, like it was all about the physical actor.
4 (1h 4m 49s):
So how do you let it out of yourself physically when you've been taught to put it in physically? I think that would benefit actors tremendously. And if they're trained in trauma, in mental health great too, but that they have to also be trained in some sort of physical outlet that helps you exercise that out.
2 (1h 5m 11s):
God, what if they had had something like, you know, followed in Christ love on technique? What if we, what have we integrated the study of that more with like helping ourselves in a practical way after rehearsal? Because even if it's not some big traumatic story, even if it's a children's story, it takes a toll, but this is something that I think people who aren't actors can't maybe wrap their heads around no matter what it is having to put yourself in a reliably, you know, heightened place, night after night or day after day as the case may be, is emotionally exhausting for everybody.
2 (1h 5m 53s):
No matter how much for how little trauma they have. Yeah.
5 (1h 5m 57s):
And you're moving, you see, like my panic is taxed started after I played a mother who lost her child to aids. Now I'm not saying that my real parents and my real childhood didn't, didn't start this whole process. But like that's when they started after that, right around that, and that intense experience with AF Kali who, you know, had his shit. And so it's just interesting. We never, and also the thing that we never talked about, that the, the movement part of it, the somatic part of it, I, I, I think you're right. I think it's not just about mental health. It's about the body releasing from the body, all the stuff.
5 (1h 6m 41s):
Oh, shit. That is some deep shit. Do you, do you use that with actors? Like when you're on set as a director or as a writer, what are your, are you conscious of that on your sets? Like about actors health and stuff, mental health and stuff like that?
4 (1h 6m 56s):
Absolutely. Oh sure. I mean, I opened a, okay. I just, when I just shot a short, that was a horror and the actress is she's, she's not as experienced as say we would have been coming from a conservatory, but she's been like taking lots of classes and stuff. And she's, I've watched her grow as an actress. And when I cast her, you know, I told her a couple of times, like I said, remember, this is film. I don't, you don't have to feel anything in these spots. I don't, I just need the shot. If you feel it, that's fine.
4 (1h 7m 37s):
But I'm, you don't have to go to a really dark, dark place because technically I'm going to grab what it is I need just from the look in your eye. So just remember, I don't need you to go really deep in all these sections and horrify yourself. And then I said, you know, make sure that you write out everything on a piece of paper afterward and release it so you can let it go. And she took it very seriously. She was, she really did her work and she gave a great performance. Also I directed a play a couple of years ago where it was two actors in there onstage the whole time. And it's very intense. And the male lead key, I mean, so confident, like just working his butt off opening night or the kind of gala night when the playwright had flown in and all these important people were there, the actress was like, Krista, come in here.
4 (1h 8m 37s):
And I went into the theater and she's like, he, he said he can't do it. He can't do it. He's freaking out. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went, I talked to him and he was like, I don't know, what's wrong with me. I'm freaking out. I'm panicking. I'm losing my shit. You know, he's like a 50 year old man. He suddenly is having a panic attack. And I remembered, I got the blues and I remember all those feelings. And I said to him, you know what, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do it. I said, you tell me, I would tell them you have the flu. I would tell him you have diarrhea and vomit. And there's no way we can do this tonight. I was like, that's fine.
4 (1h 9m 16s):
You don't have to do it. He was like, are you sure? I was like, absolutely no, you don't have to do it. And I knew by saying that to him, it would drop him, drop his anxiety down tremendously because having someone sort of affirm that you're not crazy that there's nothing wrong with you, that the end of the world is not going to happen. If you don't do this play tonight. And I told him that I was like, what the fuck? Like I told him, I said, the playwright flew in. And he had like the gear landing thing that thought they were going to die. I was like, that's real. I was like, this isn't it's okay. I was like, he can watch it tomorrow or he doesn't get to see it, whatever.
4 (1h 9m 58s):
And he totally was, he was fine. And he went on.
2 (1h 10m 3s):
So this ties in so beautifully to the thing we were talking about before we started talking to you today, which is about advocacy and whether or not we were asking each other, whether or not we felt like we had advocates in our lives or whether we are advocates. And what I hear you saying both from, even if you weren't like getting involved in what was the theater school politics were even just, I'm going to make the argument that even just the fact that you were holding space for that idea and kind of that it, that you having this idea that it shouldn't didn't need to be that way for the women. No doubt had some lasting effect in the ether. That is it because of theater school is a very different place now in no small part, because of all the people who were willing to say, Hmm, I don't, I don't quite think this is right, but so you did that there.
2 (1h 10m 55s):
And then you did that with your actors, and I'm guessing you probably do that a lot with actors and it's like Africa. It, it never, I feel like there's this idea that if we are nice to actor, that, that, that we're not going to get a good product or there's some weird mythology about people needing to really suffer. And it doesn't actually work that way. That's some romantic idea that has never been
4 (1h 11m 21s):
True. Well, it's, it's a power thing. It's, you know, directors or acting teachers who enjoy the power. Maybe they're not even conscious of it, but it's like, you know, you've got a bunch of like Barbie dolls and you're just in control of them and you get to play with them. And I think that that kind of power is intoxicating. When I was an acting teacher at Chicago college, performing arts, I was keenly aware of the power I had and I was very uncomfortable with it. I didn't like it at all. I didn't. And I, but I learned from watching the undergrads at DePaul and watching the professors and how things were dealt with in certain ways. And just even my colleagues at the, at Roosevelt, I, you know, the students were getting mad at me because I wouldn't validate them.
4 (1h 12m 10s):
They'd be like, just tell me if I'm doing a good job. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. Because what I've learned is someone else is going to think you're doing a shitty job. So I would say, just do your job and enjoy doing your job. And if you're enjoying it and you're doing your work, that should be enough. I will give you direction. I will tell you where you need to look deeper. I will, I will give you what you need, but I will at no point tell you that. You're amazing. I also won't tell you that you're awful. And it was hard for them, but it, but it kept me from kind of drinking that Kool-Aid of like I was because they treated me, like you said, like parent, like, like I was suddenly their mom.
4 (1h 12m 58s):
And then the, the, the boys forget about it. You know, I was 30 years old. I was, they were like, oh my God, that's my teacher. And they were flirtatious. I mean, like beyond. And I was like, what the hell is going on? So I had to like, keep that at bay. I had to like, because you were the adult. And I was like, oh, this is what's going on. These male professors don't get it. They think this is a real thing. Think that girl really is in love with him. No, she's just desperately looking for the comfort of a parent of a mentor, a validation of safety, all those things.
4 (1h 13m 46s):
And he fell, right. You know, they fall right into it thinking it's about them. And, you know, I just was like, I mean, I, it was dodging bullets left and right. And after three years of it, I was like, I can't, I can't do this. I don't like it. You know, unfortunately, as you know, you want people who don't like it to actually do it, that aren't going to get the power out of it. So showcase was a nightmare for you. You were dealing with panic attacks, but you moved to LA right after that, we stayed in Chicago after showcase because I went on to teach at Roosevelt and I acted in a lot of theater and yeah, I just acted a lot.
4 (1h 14m 30s):
I didn't do any directing except at Roosevelt. I directed shows for work, which was great because then I really started to learn that I wanted to do that and how to do that. And Mike Maggio was a very big influence for me. He was, he really took me under his wing and we would meet and talk about like, how, how you can, you know, we talk about like, how do you get, how do you create another step of Wolf? Is it possible? Is even, is it just sort of like, you know, lightning in a bottle and we'd have these great conversations about what I needed to be doing and where I should head. And he became a very close friend of mine and Elis.
4 (1h 15m 10s):
And so that was a very beneficial part of the theater school was sort of like taking that friendship and him very much saying like, you know, he's you the possibilities.
5 (1h 15m 22s):
And you did you in, in, in your showcase where you, like, I know you were dealing with panic and stuff like that, but did you enjoy your showcase? Was it a coming out for you? Did you feel at
4 (1h 15m 33s):
I kind, kinda, I just didn't have an expectation. I, you know, when we did the showcase in Chicago, I got an agent, so Todd Stewart signed me right then. And then when I got to LA, I just, I realized very quickly it wasn't the right monologue. I shouldn't have picked that monologue. I was on autopilot. I was just the, you know, cause of the panic attacks. But again, it was, the experience was watching the undergrads sort of implode on themselves. And I just was, it was so it was so sad. You know, I had, I had undergrads crying to me about how they hadn't gotten an agent or they weren't getting the attention they wanted without even considering I didn't get any either.
5 (1h 16m 27s):
Right. They parentified you.
4 (1h 16m 29s):
I mean, they, they, yeah. And I was like, what did you think? I just came here to shepherd. And I remember going to James hotel room and sitting down with her and I was like, Jane, what fuck? And she was like, I know it's just, it's a shit show. And I was like, this is horrible. I was like, these kids are freaking out. They're turning on each other they're friends. She was like, I know she goes, I can't control that. Like, that's just like, that's just, that's just how it always is. And I was like, well, it's horrible. And I want to go home. Like, this is awful. So again, I have to say, I mean, no disrespect to, to the dead, but like she could done something she probably could have.
4 (1h 17m 14s):
She just didn't have the tools. You know, she's a casting director. What the hell was she doing? Teaching at a school without having an understanding of really what teaching was, you know? And that there are these people who, regardless of what she thinks they should be cast as. Right. Right. Her, her consideration of their worth is right out the gate because that's her job. So how does she help somebody who she thinks isn't going to get anywhere?
5 (1h 17m 44s):
Yeah. Right. It's a setup. It's a
4 (1h 17m 46s):
Setup for failure on both sides. Right.
5 (1h 17m 51s):
Oh my God. I, yeah. It's interesting. It's just interesting to have your perspective as someone who was there as a grad student who was not, did not participate and yet still had to go through and was dealing with all the things we were dealing with, but has a slightly different and more wide lens.
4 (1h 18m 14s):
Yeah. I mean, I, I obviously went through it on my own, but you know, the, the, all that, it was funny, but Jessica Hannah right now is staying in my guest house cause she's directing my play. And so she's been here for a month and we talk every morning and discuss what went on in rehearsal. And one of the things we discussed was how the training that we did get is so good that there were all these things that they were missing.
4 (1h 18m 60s):
For sure. And there were these, there were certain teachers, obviously who abused their power. It didn't happen to me because I didn't take them seriously, which, which in the end, because I had to put that filter up. I'm not taking them seriously so that I didn't get hurt. I could have gleaned more from them, you know? So you're doing all these things, but we did, as we talk about our experience in our training and what we would want from other actors who didn't have the training we had were like, I was like, well, what, how about this? And she's like, yeah, I know. And you're like, oh, some people just don't have these tools, like these tools that you can just grab and like run with and just play with.
4 (1h 19m 48s):
But my husband, Eli's in the play as well. And I watched Eli immediately. He started a month before Hersel got off book, showed up at rehearsal, get the words, get the words out and make the connections and then doing his work ahead of time. So that then he could start gesture and start figuring out how he was going to use the space. Like he had it all mapped out. Whereas the other actors who are also equally talented weren't off-book right away, they had way more lines because he was only in the second act, but know he's also running a multimillion dollar company right now.
4 (1h 20m 28s):
So it's not like he's like sitting around just memorizing lines, like he's juggling, but he had the tools and he had the techniques to say, here's what I'm going to do to set myself up for success because I know how to do this.
5 (1h 20m 43s):
That is, that is so interesting that you say that. Cause I, I recently had the experience of like being super petrified before an audition before I moved to LA and, and our, our, our classmate Beth Lakey said to me, don't you forget your conservatory trained actor? And I was like, at first I was like, I don't know what that means. I'm just freaking out. And now that I hear you say that it's like, oh right there, ease a foundation there that we went through. That is actually super helpful in doing the job as an actor. It's actually still there, even though it got covered up with some, you know, that there is a foundation there of skill that we learned and fall back on it, if I allow myself to tap into it.
5 (1h 21m 32s):
So I forget that.
4 (1h 21m 35s):
I, I honestly, you know, I didn't have experiences that a lot of people had, you know, I never had AV Callie. I, I didn't have, you know, also Hoff. I didn't, I only had him for one semester. And so I heard stories of him, but I, I mean, you know, that the grad students in my class, we called also have, Gargamel like, we, we didn't like, we were just like, whatever, man, like, you know,
5 (1h 22m 5s):
You had some levity levity levity, like these aren't God, or they are men and women who are, are just going about their
4 (1h 22m 15s):
Yeah. And they're trying to teach something to, and the pressure that they're under from the faculty, you know, also being, having been an acting teacher at a conservatory, like I saw, I actually directed a show at DePaul when, when I started teaching at Roosevelt. So I was teaching at Roosevelt part-time and I was directing a show at DePaul and intro. And it was like night and day. I was like, oh, I would show up at this intro to rehearse. And these kids were just, I mean, there were just terrified.
4 (1h 22m 58s):
There were, there were, they were crying. They were, they didn't feel like they were good enough. There was this constant angst pain. And so I would go back to Roosevelt as a first time teacher there teaching freshmen acting. And I was like, let's keep it. Let's keep it light. You guys. Like I really kept. And that's sort of where I got the idea of like, oh, I need to make sure that these kids take this seriously and that they realize this is what they want their job to be. And they have to do the work. But I also have to make sure that they understand that when they're up there, they should be enjoying themselves and they should be playing with each other.
4 (1h 23m 38s):
And that I'm not, I mean, we didn't have a cut system. So there was not that heavy things sitting over them. I was in the last grad program that had a cut system. I was in that last year where they were going to cut. And as a grad student, you're kind of like, fine cut me. I won't owe so much money. Right, right. Or like, get it over with. So I'm not in debt, but it was, it was very eyeopening. And, and then going to a faculty meeting where I had to grade everybody with all my old acting teachers and listening to how they conversed and talked and you know, it was just, I think, oh, no, I think when you, I would have the panic attack right there, you'd be like, oh my God.
4 (1h 24m 22s):
Oh my God, nothing means anything. Oh my God. You know, like, well, yeah. I mean, there were a couple of comments that I was like, that's not appropriate. That's not what we're talking about here. And, and I called them on it. I called them on it in the meeting and, you know, make eye contact with Betsy Hamilton. And her look at me with like an ad, a girl, you know, kind of a thing where you're, you kind of are just blown away. But you, you get, what if, if, if a certain culture lets you get away with something, you, you stop seeing that it's destructive. You don't see that what you're doing is out of line and then amen. And so, you know, it starts with the Dean and I think that, you know, Dean Watts, was it Dean Watts?
4 (1h 25m 10s):
I thought he was, yeah, my whole life. I didn't even know. I mean, Dean Watts was the one who, when I had my panic attack, it was dress rehearsal or victory gardens. And he standing in the audience and he talks to the entire cast. And then he says, just so you know, we spent a shit ton of money on getting the rice for this, so don't fuck it up. Oh great. Oh. And I was like, oh my God, what has happened? And you're like, I'm, I don't care. I'll care of it. I paid you to get those rights from my money.
4 (1h 25m 52s):
You know, it just was such a like, and that was the night that I had a panic attack. Of course it was too much pressure. Wow. And
2 (1h 26m 4s):
Then yeah. So, so for people who are in theater school right now, graduate program or whatever, like find the moments where you can let yourself off the hook for, you know, the entire fate of the world resting on your shoulders or whether or not you do a really good job on this part that frankly nobody's coming to see you, except the other people who go to your school. So honestly like, Nope, Ben Brantley is not going to be writing it out in the times. So just, just relax.
4 (1h 26m 31s):
Yeah. Well honestly we did get reviewed for, I got the blues.
2 (1h 26m 36s):
Oh, you did? Oh seriously. Oh, I didn't write that.
4 (1h 26m 39s):
They brought it in because they had paid so much and it was a world premiere had never been seen before. And I was playing a part written for Stella Adler and that the character was Stella. She never got to play it. No pressure. So it was, yeah, it was her. But I mean, again, it was a great cast, very talented people that I was working with and thank God that they were there for me when I was having that, you know, between Veltin and Hogan knocker. And what's his name? He played my husband. Oh my God. I can't think of it directed that Hobart Peter.
2 (1h 27m 18s):
Oh yeah. Well, we're going to have to end, unfortunately, I want to honor your time, but thank you. This has been a fantastic conversation. I would
5 (1h 27m 29s):
Love to keep going. I mean, like
2 (1h 27m 32s):
We should have a part two someday. I really want to hear about
5 (1h 27m 34s):
You on set. And it also, I just want to say like, as an actor, like I now questioning, maybe I just haven't found the right director.
4 (1h 27m 44s):
Well, you know, I always ask actors, but as an actor, I think you can always say to your director, listen, this is something that I deal with. So can you actually, my actress on, on the short film said that to me, she said, I have anxiety and I've had panic attacks. So if, if you give me a direction and suddenly I start to feel anxious, can we have, can I always take a moment? I was like, absolutely. Of course you can. So I think you have to advocate for yourself as well. And also remember, remember, nobody's going to fire you for having anxiety because there would be no actors, actors, actors have anxiety because they're empathic people and there's a lot on them.
4 (1h 28m 32s):
And they're, they're constantly putting themselves in a vulnerable situation where, you know, everybody else that's involved, it's vulnerable, but not the same way. If you're in theater at night after night, you're having to put yourself out there. If it's film, you're putting yourself out there and then once you're done, they get to put together an edit, whatever you put out there. So again, as actors, if you don't want it to be in the movie, don't do it.
6 (1h 29m 5s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Interview: Boz talks to Heather Gilbert about training and working as a lighting designer, the privilege of training in the same place you want to work, Carnegie Mellon, John Bridges, John Culbert, Theatre Communications Group, the NEA, Topdog/Underdog, Stacy Caballero, Keith Parham, analytical geometry, the alchemy of passions that compose lighting design, Trinity University, Kendra Thulin, David Swayze, Manifest Arts Festival, The Big Funk, Steppenwolf, Suzan Lori Parks, Don Cheadle, Jeffrey Wright, Mos Def, storefront theatre, Buried Child, Everyman, The Libertine, Bar San Miguel, David Cromer, Miracle on 34th Street starring Tracy Letts, The Hypocrites, Sean Graney, The Adding Machine, Our Town, the magic of good artistic partnerships, Sam Rockwell, Sheldon Patinkin, Next to Normal at Writers Theatre, The Band's Visit on Broadway, Come Back Little Sheba at The Huntington, Michael Halberstam, Adam Rapp's The Sound Inside at Williamstown , Studio 54, Franco Colavecchia, Nan Cibula, Bug by Tracy Letts, not apologizing, being process-oriented vs. product-oriented, Macbeth at the NY Shakespeare Festival, Angela Bassett, Alec Baldwin, Zach Braff, Liev Schreiber, Michael C. Hall, and Carrie Coon.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
Speaker 1 (0s): I'm Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous? Okay. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me. My
Speaker 2 (32s): God. I'm so
Speaker 1 (33s): Excited about it. So the first thing we always say is, congratulations, Heather Gilbert, you survived theater school. I did. I did. Okay. And you really survived it with, with a flourish. I would say you're kind of fancy and a big deal
Speaker 2 (52s): Is a lighting designer ever really a big deal
Speaker 1 (55s): In my view. So we have a lot, the thing that I love about reading about you, and also I know you teach and you're at, but is that there is a, I would say you're a master of your craft based on what I would say that based on what I've read about you and what I know about you and your successes, and also your trajectory during school. And post-school like, if there's a master of a lighting designer, crap, you've you're, you're it.
So thank you. Yeah. It's amazing to lo to, to read about you. So one of the things and people also post what you can, for me, I can tell when someone is a bad-ass at what they do, because they don't actually have to promote themselves that other people around them will post till they'll say, oh my gosh, congratulations. So that is a sign that you're a bad ass is that other people are like, I'm shouting out your name without you having, you know what I mean?
Like you don't do a lot of self-promotion,
Speaker 2 (1m 60s): I'm terrible at it actually,
Speaker 1 (2m 1s): Which is, which is amazing that you, that you're able to anyway, other people sing your praises, which I think is like really what we all want as artists, you know? So, yeah. So, okay. So why don't you tell me like how you ended up at the theater school, where you're from, like how that went down?
Speaker 2 (2m 19s): So I I'm from I'm from Michigan. I'm also from Texas. I mostly grew up in Texas. Like the important years were there and I was working after, so I went to the theater school for grad school during this super brief period of time when there was a grad degree in design, I was the first lighting designer. I came in with someone else who only lasted the first quarter. He was like super unhappy. He kind of made me, I kind of glommed on to that. And I was like, oh, are we unhappy? I'll be unhappy. I, this
Speaker 1 (2m 46s): Complained about everything.
Speaker 2 (2m 48s): And then he, he left after first quarter and then it was awesome because they gave me all the things that he was supposed to do. But when I came in, I wasn't, I wasn't interested in the program. If I was going to be the very first person without a cohort, a word we did not use in 1994, there was no cohort. No, we just had classmates. Right. And yeah, he, so he, so, but I knew about him and then he ended up not finishing the program. So I was actually the first lighting master's lighting student since they had left the Goodman.
Speaker 1 (3m 19s): Great.
Speaker 2 (3m 20s): Yeah. And I had, so I'd been working in Houston doing an internship and Kevin Rigdon, who was the, at the time the resident designer at Steppenwolf had come down and did a show production of our town, which ultimately became a very important part of my life, my adult life in my own career. And so he came down and did our town with Jose Cantero directing. There was this huge thing. And I thought Kevin was great. I thought he was funny. And I loved his work and I was really interested in it. And he was adjunct at the theater school.
And he actually told me not to, he was like, don't come I'm adjuncts. And they're just starting this master's program. You kind of want to find a place that's that's has more stuff going on. And then when I decided to apply to grad school the next year, for sure, I was looking at different places and somebody gave me the advice that you should really look at the people who design the team, the design work of the people that you're going to study with, because that's what they're going to teach you. Right. Great,
Speaker 1 (4m 17s): Great advice.
Speaker 2 (4m 18s): It was, it was really great advice. And the other was to look at the market, right? Like look for a market that you would want to be in. Like, you can get an amazing degree in Idaho. There's actually really good programs there, but the market's not there. And I'll tell ya. I did not realize until I was a college professor. This is so like blind of like the blindness to your privilege. Right. I did not understand the benefits I had in Chicago from going to school in Chicago until I watched my students graduating into it.
That's when I realized what I could do for them. And I realized what my professors did for me.
Speaker 1 (4m 54s): So interesting. I mean, I think, I think we don't, we don't ever, I don't know anyone that's really hipped. Maybe kids nowadays are young adults are really hip to it, but like, yeah. I mean, I didn't think of thinking of like, okay, well what, what is the sort of the place where I'm landing and who are my connections there? But I am learning now at 46 in Los Angeles that the people that I'm really connected to here in the industry are all from Chicago. Mostly a lot of them are from the theater school. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (5m 25s): It's so interesting. I, it's funny. I've been listening to your podcasts and what I love is like, I feel like it's the best Facebook ever. It's like, so, cause I'm like, oh, listen to all these hour long interviews with people, all due respect to someone who might forgotten existed. Right. You know, like I tumbled down the whole like conversation about the religion. And I was like, oh my God, I forgot all about that. I knew I knew those people. Right. It's just not my life anymore. Right.
Speaker 1 (5m 49s): I mean, I I'm. Yeah. I'm also shocked. Like we have people on that, like remember us that I have no recollection of having with. And I think I always talked it up to excessive drinking and dirt back in my day. But like, I think it's just like, that's not our life anymore. Right. We're in a different time, different lifetimes.
Speaker 2 (6m 10s): I took it. There's like three levels of people there's like from school. It's like the people that I still know and have to remind myself, I went to school with like, that's the connection. I there's the people that I, that I have no idea what happened to, so I love when they're on your podcast and then there's the people who are famous. So I think that I know what they're doing. Like I have a feeling, I feel like I know what Judy is up to, but I don't know what she's up to. I just know,
Speaker 1 (6m 33s): Right. That she works all the time. Then we went to school with her. Right, right. It's so funny. It's, it's a such a wild thing. Okay. So you were like, I'm going to go,
Speaker 2 (6m 42s): I'm going to go to grad school. And I looked at Chicago, I looked at DePaul because I really liked Kevin. And then I also looked, I was looking really heavily at Carnegie Mellon and, and he went to, I went to one of those. It's funny. I listen to you guys talk about it with the actors. But I went to one of those, like Roundup audition, interview things in Houston. And I interviewed with both schools at the same time. And Carnegie Mellon was like, well, we've been teaching this class for 20 years. It's a great class. And we've been doing this other thing for 20 years and it's awesome.
And I was like, oh my God, you're so boring. And the program is actually massive and huge and revitalized now. But I think at that moment in time, it was just not, they were had a lot of faculty had been there. And then I went to the DePaul one and I talked to John Bridges. I was like, I offer you Chicago. Like I offer you the energy of John Bridges and Chicago. And I was like, oh, this is so much more interesting to me. Yeah. You know? And then I got lucky because what I didn't know is that John Colbert is like, I call him the Clark Kent of lighting design, because he seems super mild-mannered.
And he's like Superman, that guy is a genius And a master teacher. And so the fact that I got to study with him for three years and the part of it was him creating curriculum that he felt I needed, even when, and I have these moments with my students now where I'm like, this is what you need to do. And they're like, I don't think that's what I think I would do better. I think this is what I need to study. And John would be like, yeah, you need that other thing. You know, I actually, years after school, a couple of years later, I applied for a, there was a, it's funny, it's funded by the NDA.
So you can't call it a, it can't be a grant or fellowship. It just has to be like a program that you're on. But it was one where the theater communications group got money from the NDA and young, like early career designers and directors to observe, assist other artists because you can't make anything. If it's the NDA. Right. It's like the rules that came out of all this stuff in the nineties. Right. And John called me up and was like, you need to apply for that. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally applied for that. I was thinking next year. Right. Like you need to apply this year.
And I was like, well, yeah, but see, here's the reason and this and that thing. And he was like this year and I was like, but really I was like, you know, this next year. And I was like, this year, this year I'll do it this year. And then I got it.
Speaker 1 (9m 4s): Was it amazing? It
Speaker 2 (9m 5s): Was, it's an interesting thing. It was amazing in some ways. And in some ways it like slows your career down because you have to do six months worth of work within two years and you for the money and you get paid as you go, but you don't get to make anything. So it can like become a thing where you're like getting to know these amazing people and working with these amazing people. But you also, can't
Speaker 1 (9m 28s): Interesting
Speaker 2 (9m 29s): And make it, you know, like it slows down like what you can do as your own artist. I will say though, that, as I'm saying these words, even I'm thinking about the people that I worked with and how they function in my life and how important they'd been, like how important some of them still are
Speaker 1 (9m 43s): Still in your life. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (9m 45s): They gave me an extension on it as well, because that was also the time that I, I was the associate designer on the first production of top dog underdog. And that was a show that they were actually TCG was trying to get somebody in that room. And they were being like, well, we don't really want somebody to observe us. And I got offered to work on it, but I had worked with the whole team before, so they wouldn't let me do it, but they let me extend it. So they were pretty generous about like, yeah, I'll be making things happen. Wow. Yeah. Okay. And I got into DePaul and so I came to DePaul, I came up and visited and it was,
Speaker 1 (10m 16s): And you, you, did you work with, was there, were you working with someone, a lighting designer at DePaul named Keith?
Speaker 2 (10m 26s): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny when somebody talks about him, I don't know if it was you or Gina talking about him. We'll talk about seeing the scout, the Macbeth that we did that I did with Stacy Cabalero who I, who was my best friend from grad school. Oh yeah. When I think about grad school, like Shawna Flannigan and I were roommates for years after, but, but Stacy and I were super close. We did. So we did like so many of our shows together there and he was talking, it was it, you that he was telling that he commented on the costume. Gina was sitting next to him, but she was talking about it.
She was like, and Keith param. And he was like, he was looking at it. He was like, oh my God. And I was like, I literally was listening to the podcast like, oh God, did he say something about my lights? What did he say? What did he say? Then? Then it was about Stacy. And I was like, oh, that's so funny. One of my close friends still.
Speaker 1 (11m 14s): So yeah, he was the first person that made me really interested in lighting. And he, when we closed the show, the yellow boat together, he gave me a print of his drawing of the lighting, like, oh wow. With lighting. And I still got it framed. And it was, I was like, oh, well this kind, because I think personally that as actors, we're, we, we have this thing of like, our ego is like crossed all the time.
So then we, we have, we have an inflated sense of ego really that we have to build. And we think that acting is the most important thing. And it was the first time it, my land that's garbage. And the first thing to person to really say, to show me like, oh my gosh, look, this is all part of a huge deal. Like I am not the huge deal that lighting is, everything has its place. And then we come together, but I was like, oh, this is, this is an art that really ties the whole show together.
Like really? And it's like unsung magic. And I think a lot of actors anyway, just think that the lights up here and that nobody is behind them being the artist, creating that at least young actors,
Speaker 2 (12m 30s): Young ones. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think you're right about that in school, it's often
Speaker 1 (12m 35s): Lighting for you. Like, what is it, what was it about that?
Speaker 2 (12m 39s): You know, it's funny, my mother at one point was like having this big guilt thing that she had never encouraged me into it when I was younger. But like all of the signs did, like, unless you knew this was a thing, it didn't make sense. I was, I loved theater. My grandmother studied theater in New York in the thirties and she taught college. Yeah. She'd studied with a bunch of amazing people. She didn't work professionally, but, but she would take us to theater. Right. So it was a huge influence for my mother then for me. And I loved being an audience member. I never wanted to be on stage. And I haven't been a couple of times. And also now that I'm like, in my fifties, it's so much easier.
Like I'm much more willing to jump off the right off the cliff and try whatever. Cause why not? What is it gonna embarrass me right now, please, please. If I didn't embarrass myself to death in my twenties, I think we're good now. You're good. So, yeah, but I, I, I just always like things that related. So I, like, I was interested in photography at one point, but I loved reading. I loved going to the theater. I have this, I was terrible in high school. It trig. I like, oh, I got like, I barely got through trigonometry class. And the second semester of the math track I was on was like analytical or spacial geometry.
And it was like, I was a savant. I was like, that's what that 3d grid looks like. I can see that thing in space and I could answer, am I my teacher? And I were both like, what is up? How do I know this really have a good sense of space? And so if you look at the combo of all those things, they all really go together into lighting design. If you, if you know that thing. So when I went to undergrad, I'm in San Antonio at this small college Trinity university, super liberal artsy, sort of the opposite of your, your, what do we call them?
We call academic classes and academics. I feel like we did, but they definitely, yeah. Academics. I really was. I had a lot of intense like philosophy classes and religion classes, all super helpful for the career that I have. But I also, my first semester took a intro to theater class and I loved the lighting. And then the second semester we were, I had to register dead last, like first year, dead last, you can't get anything. And a friend of mine that was in my end theater class was like, well, I'm going to, she was going to be a high school drama teacher, her name's Emily Goodpasture.
And she decided that she was going to end. So Gilbert and good pasture registering last. She was like, I'm taking this sledding class. Cause I know I have to take all of the design classes and the acting classes for my future career as a drama teacher. And I think she take this learning class with me and I did. And then throughout college I would do other things, but I kept coming back to lighting. I just, I love the magic of the way light reveals form. I love looking at tons of different kinds of light bulbs. You know, my friend wants me to come to become Tik TOK famous and support us by telling people how to light their homes.
Speaker 1 (15m 32s): Well, here's the thing that I, I actually, when you just said that, I have to say like, I was like, oh, I wonder what she thinks about filters and add tic-tac and the way people use light and could do you look at photos and videos and things and say, oh, that would be so much better if you just lit it like this. Are you able to do do that?
Speaker 2 (15m 53s): Oh, for sure. I mean, I definitely, yeah. Most things in my life revolve around, you know, I always laugh cause I still go in theaters and look up at the lights and people are like, oh, I saw you looking at the lights. And I'm like, do you look at the actors? Of course, I look at the lights, I'm trying to figure out like the craft of what they did or you know, or what the equipment that they got to work with was, and yeah, but I can't, even though I could probably find another career with lighting that is so much more lucrative and I'm sure that that is true, right? The best part of my job for me still is that everyday when I go to work in theater, actors tell stories in front of me on stage live.
And that is my favorite thing. I love going to plays. I love seeing performance and I love it live. So the fact that I get to be connected to that in some way and another character in that for me is really awesome.
Speaker 1 (16m 39s): That's fantastic. And I I've never thought about it that way, that like, I mean, obviously I've thought about that a little, that the lighting is another character, but again, it's like, there are, there is a human and maybe a team of humans behind that character and that it, that you enjoy hearing the live stories being told. And that's why the theater versus, you know, film and TV, right? Like it's not, I mean, I guess you could still, it could be live on set, but like, you wouldn't be like the designer of a show.
I don't even know how it works in television and film. Like the lighting people. Is there a lighting designer behind film and TV?
Speaker 2 (17m 21s): There are no. And because there's so many more people on a film, I, and or television, there's more people encompass the single jobs that we do in theater, the DP it'd be the DP and the gray and then the interest and then editing is also a part of what we do. So, so all of those things sort of come together in that way. It's funny, David Swayze, do you remember Dan Swayze? He, so he's in film now and he's doing super well. Yeah. He's an art director and film and, and we have not kept up.
We keep up actually better than I do with a lot of people, but it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, even with the pandemic, it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, he was talking one time about what he loved about doing television or film, he specifically film. And the thing that he loves about it is that it's, it's so immediate and you can make changes. So like, you can say like, oh, we need to, we, instead of doing it this way, we think this would look better and you can actively do that thing, which in theater set designers can't do that. But the rest of us can, I was like, you're talking about lightening design.
I can make the change in the instant. You know, sometimes I have to say, I have to hang a light for tomorrow, but sometimes I can do like, hang on. My moving light will do that for us. Right. This second, you know? So I get to, I get to, it's funny though, we were like super technical or technological. And then all of a sudden it was like projections and sound, which were, you know, a slide projector and a yes. And you know, MiniDisc jumped us and they can craft in the room and we still can't craft in the room in the same way that they can, which I'm actually kind of grateful for.
I like that. We get to say like, we're going to think on that. We're gonna let us
Speaker 1 (18m 60s): Oh, wait. And think on that. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Cause I, I, yeah, I liked the idea too of you're you're like a problem solver. Oh
Speaker 2 (19m 13s): Yes. Right.
Speaker 1 (19m 14s): Yeah. I love problem solvers. I think that they're really great to have in a room because I think it teaches everybody that like there are mysteries to be solved in the theater. And there are people that are trained to solve them that aren't me and they, and that we can work together. But problem solvers, we need the problem-solvers in, in rooms, in the theater. Like it's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (19m 46s): But you know, it's interesting. We solve different problems, problems. Like I was years ago, we have this event on the last day of the semester, second semester at Columbia called manifest, which is this massive arts festival. It spills onto the streets. We have puppet show puppet, parades down the street. And we have, it's really fantastic. Photography has like gallery exhibits, super fun. This school is crazy. And I love it. And years ago it poured down rain and they had had this thing that they were going to do.
This is pretty so long ago that I think it was 2009, actually it poured down rain. And they'd had this event that they were going to do called manna text. And they were going to, people could submit their phone numbers and they would text and be like, go to this stage. And you'll, if you're the 10th person there you'll get a thing. And texting was still like, we, it, wasn't certainly not the, the way we lived our lives. Right,
Speaker 1 (20m 39s): Right.
Speaker 2 (20m 41s): Yes. It poured down. And as soon as it pours, like we had an outdoor stage and I always, I, I produced it for the department. I thank God. I don't have to anymore. But I, I had, I always kept the stage free inside so that if anything happened, we could move it in. So we moved everything in and we didn't have lights up in the theater. And I, so I walked downstairs and I started hanging some lights and doing some things and I was working with, oh, this is funny. I was working with Kendra Thulin oh yeah. He was working with me on that because Kendra and I worked together again, somebody, I almost forget I went to school with.
And so I started hanging the lights and everything and she's just staring, like she can't do it. And my kids walked in, my students walked in and I was like, okay, here's what I need you to do to finish this up, do this, do this, do this, hang that, get these gels. These from the sides, this from the front, I'll see you guys. They were like, great. And Kendra and I walked out to do something. And she was like, that was amazing. And I was like, it's what we know how to do. And then five hours later Manitex has fallen apart. They can't figure out what to do. And I'm standing there. I've got these two seasoned subscriptions to the department, which I'm pretty sure were free anyway, back then.
And I'm like, what am I supposed to do with these? And I turned there, we're doing a musical theater thing. And I turned to a couple of minutes, you'll theater students. And I was like, get these to an audience member. Somehow they went on stage and made this hilarious, adorable competition. That was like a trivia thing, like trivia about musical theater. Right. And they gave them to the winner. And I was like, we all, I, my students would have turned to the human next to them and been like, do you have these, you know, that's why we're all together. That's why Columbia administration is constantly like, you're you have too many majors in your department.
It's so unwieldy. And it's like, because it takes a lot of people to create an entire world.
Speaker 1 (22m 26s): It really does. That is really true. And everybody solves different problems. Like nobody that does it does. It does take a bunch of people. That's really interesting. And then when you graduated, what did you do? Like, were you like, I mean, really your career kind of took off. I mean, you're co you're pretty fancy lighting cider. So how did you, did you just like, love it and people loved you and you started getting jobs or like how did it work?
Speaker 2 (22m 55s): Yeah. There was a couple of stages in it. I, you know, it's funny. I did the big funk and what's hilarious about that to me is that when we did it, I was like, where are we? We are in the front end of someone's apartment. It is bizarre. These people live here in the back of this place and they're letting us do a play in the front and like flash forward, I don't know, 15 years. And I, I am friends with those people. Amazing. I did some moment in conversation. I was like, that was your place that I did that weird shit show with the weird lights in the cans.
Like, so I started doing storefront and I S I had started assisting at Steppenwolf while I was at school. So I had, I, at the time that I was in school, I had a foot in both bootcamps. And so it is, I definitely, yeah, I definitely was splitting my time. And so I started doing more assisting it's definite wall. And in the fall, he'll never hear this the fall, right after graduation, I assisted somebody who sort of well known to be difficult business of lighting side.
And for whatever reason, we absolutely hit it off. And he is like my brother today. And so I started traveling with him. I started working on projects all over with him and because he was difficult, theater companies would bring me to projects that they wouldn't necessarily bring an assistant on normally, because he's really, he's like the best in the business, but they knew I could handle him. And they knew that I could handle him by saying, I need you to leave the theater right now. And I'll take care of things while you sit her down. And so we, I would go to, I went to New York with him starting in 1998.
I assisted actually my second Broadway assisting job was with him. My first one was from Steppenwolf. So I simultaneously was with Steppenwolf and him. And so my assistant career was like really amping up. And I was in these important rooms like Suzan-Lori parks and George Wolfrey top dog underdog with at the time the first production was Don Cheadle and Jeffrey Wright. And then those staff replaced Jeffrey or repost on. And so I was getting to do a lot of those really awesome things. And simultaneously I was doing storefront, right. And, and honing my skills and building my skills and knowing how, like I could watch the people that assisted make these massive shows with so much stuff.
And I would think about those ideas. It's exactly what they tell you to do in school. But yeah. And then I would go back to the storefront with 17 lights and some candles, and I could make something that was really interesting because I had a much stronger sense of how equipment worked. You know, Keith always says that his graduate school was assisting per the years that he did. And he particularly assisted this amazing designer named Jim Ingles. And he's like, that was my grad school because I learned how to use our tools and then how to pull back from them.
Speaker 1 (25m 35s): And how did you get, I think for people listening, they're going to be, well, how, how did she get to assist at step it, well, how did she get in the room at Steppenwolf?
Speaker 2 (25m 44s): It was that guy, Kevin, the one that was my, you know, he taught us, but he, I, he knew I came up here and I reached out and I was like, I really, I want to have, you know, I, I want to work with you. I want to learn from you. And he, it's funny because now he's in Houston. I met him, but he is, he was great. And my second year, because the guy I came in with dropped the program, my second and third year, I was all alone. Like my classes were by myself. And so what John would often do was put me in a class with someone else.
So that, like, there was a, for some reason, the third year BFA lighting class in my second year only had one wedding student. So we paired for the class in the class time, we had somebody to sort of like riff on and talk to, and our levels were different. But a lot of the projects that we did, like we spent one full quarter just in the light lab, which we usually, most semester, most years we did just making projects. And like, here's a song like the song by next week, here's a musical theater song. You you're lighting it as if it's musical theater, somebody on there, like something has to represent the chorus, visually something has to represent, how do you, how do you actually change the song as if it's a stage?
And we have like little blocks of wood and like little people and things that we would put up and make these vignettes. And so she and I were just sort of at different levels on that, but Kevin was the teacher and it was, I actually had a one-on-one with him. And he said at the beginning of the year, he was like, I just want your, your resume is going to look good when you finish this class. And that was crazily enough. It was the 20th anniversary of Stephan wall. So I was the second assistant on very child. Gosh, that to Gary Sinise director, I worked on every man that Frank Lottie directed, I worked on the Libertine, how much was in.
I did, I was an assistant second assistant on all of those shows. And then by the fourth show of that season, I ended up the first assistant who, who stayed with him for a while, but was sort of grooming me to be the next step. And that's how that sort of works sometimes is like we, our assistants move up and become our full peers. And then we train somebody else up in that way. And I, by the fourth show, I was actually getting paid while I was doing it for credit and stuff at school. So I think in those days I wouldn't have gotten in trouble for it today. They would be like, what, what?
Speaker 1 (27m 56s): Right. But then you were like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27m 58s): So they didn't know. Right.
Speaker 1 (28m 0s): They weren't keeping track of that is so cool.
Speaker 2 (28m 3s): So I got to do that.
Speaker 1 (28m 4s): Yeah. And then, and then did you, did you, what was the journey like to, did you live in New York? Like, did you live in New York, ever full time?
Speaker 2 (28m 13s): Not full time. I spent a lot of time crashing on David Swayze's spare, like his studio floor. I did a lot of that for many years and, and other friends, new Yorkers are particularly skilled in the art of letting you stay with them. And so now, I mean, I joke that I'm the Heather Gilbert school for wayward or Heather Gilbert home for wayward Chicagoans, because I there's so many people who move out of Chicago and come back to do a show and I let them, I let them live in my spare room. My friend, Samantha, who's this brilliant costume designer.
I mean, for like two and a half years, we were like, she was like my, my roommate. She came and went, I have somebody coming on the Saturday after Thanksgiving while she does a show, you know? Cause I feel like I'm giving back for all those times that I crashed in New York. So I did a fair amount of assisting and stuff there. I've only, I guess I've only designed about three times there actually. One of them was pretty significant. So yes.
Speaker 1 (29m 9s): Talk about that. Let's talk about that. How did that come about? What, what, yeah. That journey of life.
Speaker 2 (29m 17s): Yeah. My other job in grad school was I was bartender. I, yeah. I used to bartend at a place called bar San Miguel up on Clark street. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was a non-equity bar. And I started bartending there after, I guess, had our second year. It's funny during that huge heat wave of 95, I went there for the first time with Chris Freeburg and Kate McKernan. Yes. Half a year later I was working there and, and Cromer used to come in there cause it was a theater bar and I met him there. And so our relationship started 26 years ago.
Holy shit.
Speaker 1 (29m 48s): As tender in a patron.
Speaker 2 (29m 50s): Yeah. That's how we met. That's amazing. Yeah. He loves that. I think he loves it. That's part of our origin story because it's funny when we, when he tells it and writes it like in a letter of recommendation or whatever, and, and we didn't work together until 2003, but we've known each other. At one point we quit smoking at the same time. And at one point that was like the most significant thing. And then all of these things that we've done have happened since, but now I'm also still thinking that maybe the most significant thing that we ever did together was quit smoking. That's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (30m 18s): It's very significant. And it also, you did it together and it's a real bonding experience when you quit. Something like that.
Speaker 2 (30m 26s): Yeah. It was tough. It's been, it's been, it's been 19 years this year. Congratulations. So we started then, and that was the moment also that like I did a show with him finally, and we did this miracle on 34th street that we all were super in need of money at Christmas time. And he wrote this adaptation and it started Tracy Letts, which we think is like the funniest thing in the world now. And so we did that show and then when I started, and then I started teaching shortly thereafter and I started, I did, and I went to LSU for two years in Baton Rouge.
And when I came back because I loved teaching students, they're the best thing in the world. Higher education can make you want to pull your hair out. And state schools are often really like that if you're in the arts. So it was a struggle, but I came back here to Columbia, which I had only vaguely known of when we were in school. And that's, I didn't know that everybody who got cut came here until I was teaching here. And then it was funny because when I would, I don't remember when the cuts system stopped, but whatever point it did was after I started here, because you would be doing like the summer sort of advising with incoming students, you do your, your couple of sessions in the summer and kids would come in and their credits would be this really weird number.
And I was like, I don't understand why that's not three credits, but it was like two points, 1.3 threes and 2.3 twos. And it was sort of like thirds, but not even HOAs. And I, and I found out that was, that was the sign of somebody who was cut from the theater school because it was the theater school classes that were those year long things, trying to get them into semesters. Right, right. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, that's what happened to everybody who quit. And so, so, but David talkier and so we, we start teaching a collaboration class together, all really.
I didn't know, that's cool for directors and designers. And so then we were going to do a show here at school together, but he, and we started the process and we were like, live, we got to live what we teach them. We got to, we got it. We got to collaborate like that. And we had to pull out of the show because he took adding machine to New York instead. And then he came home from adding machine. And that's when he had been talking about our town that he was going to do with the hypocrites, which was, I worked a lot with the artistic director of the hypocrites I had. I had a long relationship.
I, I mean, he's still my friend, he's just second grader, John grainy, Sean and I, Sean was simultaneously, the two of them were sort of like my biggest income and my income through them. And so I, so, but I wasn't a part of the hypocrites. I was eventually, I was not at that point. Right. And he, he kept talking to the show, but he had to ask the resonance designer, but the resident designer who's my sweet friend now said no. And they brought me on to our town and you know, it's sort of like, the rest is history.
Like we, David and I have a long history at that point and we have a, we had a friendship, you know, but we now, you know, we had like the let's let's, you know, talk on the phone and watch Dexter in the middle of the night friendship a little bit before that. But we now have done, I think I, I counted when we opened bug last week and I think we've talked 16 shows together and, and some of them have been really life-changing for both of us. So yeah,
Speaker 1 (33m 37s): That is fantastic. And I feel like if you find a collaborator that just I'm recently have, have started working with someone that I just, I work with Gina, and then I work with other people, but like when you find someone like that, where you, you just, it just works out. Like it just works. There's something about it. The only thing you can think of is like, you know, it is some sort of, it almost feels like some kind of cosmic thing that comes together that you are able to do.
Great. You can facilitate each other's great work without ending the relationship and having crazy, you know, fights and things that don't lead to total destruction. That's magic.
Speaker 2 (34m 24s): Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting cause directors go, I think they probably do this to actors too. If they have a deep relationship more than anything, they go stuff's right there. Like they just stopped calling and you're like, come on. Right. And Cobra, at one point it was in New York and working with new people and our town had come to a close. Right. Which, cause that sort of kept us together for a long time. We did that show that was over over seven year period of time, all the venues. And so we, we had, you know, we'd, we'd, we'd had a connection and we had done other couple of other new shoot new shows within that time.
Yeah, sure. It wasn't just our town. Right. And then we'd done our streetcar that was really successful. And the Sam Rockwell was in really isn't that crazy. I did a person who was Sam Rockwell, who was so lovely. I came up and was like, oh my God, the lighting is so beautiful. I was like, oh, so I will be heard in it. So how do you know? But,
Speaker 1 (35m 17s): But he, but even to say it, you know, like what a sweetheart? Yeah. I was at a wedding with him cause he was in a movie with my boss and he was lovely, a lovely and like a pro like a real,
Speaker 2 (35m 31s): So I get so excited for him now all the time. So, but we had healed David actually sort of like wasn't calling. And I was like, oh, are we not going to work together anymore? And it's funny because I think in the history of our lives, it will, it's actually a blip, but it felt like a long time. And I was like, okay, well I guess that's okay. Like relationships do shift and, and partnerships do add, nobody wants to somebody forever. Absolutely. But I was like, I actually, we are, I am, you know, I was not a Columbia kid. I'm like, I have a pocket in a thousand ways. But yeah, I did work.
I do teach at Columbia and I am a Sheldon Patinkin person. I'm one of his people and Sheldon taught you, you see each other's shows. That is what we do for each other. Right. I was like, I'm going to still see your shows. Right. We have way too much of a history for our friendship to die because we're not, we're not doing right. Right. So I kept, I stayed around. Yeah. I was like, I'm not going to, I'm going to come to me. I'm going to see your things. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go see the band's visit or I'm going to go also, I get to see the bands visit then come on. Right. Or I'm going to see your comeback, little Sheba with Derek in Boston because I love that.
You know? And so when the time rolled around, I found out he was doing a production of next to normal at writers theater. And I loved that show and I had done a production of it that I kept texting him, being like, oh my God, I wish I were doing your production of this. Not that I didn't think that one was great, but it was much more of the sort of flash and trash version. Right. And I wanted to see David's version where there's like a dining room table and people around it. Right. You know? And I just, I was, so I texted him as soon as I heard from our friend Lilianne was like, I will do the show. And he woke up the next morning and he was like, he texted me back.
I was like, it was kind of a non David text. I was like, this is very specific and kind, and I he's listing these things, but he was like, these are the, I woke up this morning and I saw your text. And I called Michael Halberstam, who was still the artistic director at the time. And so we have to hire Heather for the show and he said, okay, but we already hired Keith. And I was like, yeah, I fucking knew it. I knew I was going to be too late. I'm reading this text. And David's like, and I screwed up. And these are the reasons why, and he was like, writer's theaters are theater. It's our place. Which just so you know, he'd just done as many shows with Keith as he has with me.
But he went through and he was like gave me their reasons that were really lovely. And then he said, Williamstown is going to reach out about a show, Adam rap's new play. And I was like, Williamstown really paid nothing. Why is that my constellation prize? I was totally annoyed. And then Williamston production was a struggle. Like we did this by the way, the play is the sound inside because we have not said the name of it if anybody's listening. And we, so we were, it was a struggle, you know, you have to do it very quickly.
It's a big play for, for the, the lead actress in it and the actress in it. And, and it was a struggle for her. She, she definitely was acting out a little bit. Yeah, sure. And, and so, and you don't have much time and you're doing it with people who are, you know, these interns that I it's sort of famously a conversation in the industry right now about specifically how William sound carries those interns. So you're feeling guilty and also they don't know what they're doing as well. So there's a lot of pressure on that. Right. And I loved it.
I loved that place so much. I read that play and I was like, oh my God, this is beautiful. It's this beautiful play about what we do when we were in need in our loneliness. And it's just, it's ju it just hit me. I don't know how Adam Rapp, who's this like hyper alpha masculine male actually has that insight into, I think, because it's insight into humanity and thus, he can change it into he's like, well, women feel the same thing men do. We're right. We're not different creatures.
Right. So, yeah. Wow. And then, and then the show moved to New York a year later to Broadway to studio 54, which my God, I got to crawl around in studio 54. It took me crawl over that building. I was like, she'll be everything. Where did they keep the drugs? I'm so cute. Right. Right. Yeah. And we, I went up into the there's a dome and I got to go up into the dome and look down into the space and see where they store all the lights. And I got the full tour one day. It's great. The crew is the best crew in the entire world.
And we did this beautiful play and people were, you know, it's funny. I, I actually was just, I submitted an application last night at 11:58 PM for full professorship. Like that's the highest level of, of teaching here. Yeah. And when you get tenure, you have to apply for that. But then once you've got it, you actually don't have to apply for anything, a promotion past that. Yeah. So I finally had committed to doing it. And so it's funny, I've been thinking so much about my philosophy of lighting and the way I approach it.
But one of the things is that there's that old saw the best line design is lighting. The can't be seen, which is just a load of crap anywhere like Eddie in any scenario, like just say like you and I can't see the light where we are right now. Right. We see it. We know it's there. What they really mean is if I change, if I break the rules of the reality that I set up for you and notice that that's bad lighting design. Right, right. It's like, it's, I was compared to like, weirdly as a lighting professor, I had Meisner in this paper that I was writing yesterday.
This document is writing. Cause it's like, it's that idea of living truthfully in imaginary circumstances. It's the same thing for us. We're creating those circumstances and we're trying to make it so that the actors can live in truth and everything has it. And if the rules are light comes out of the floor. Right. And it changes when I take a step, as long as I, as long as we create those rules for the audience. Right. And, and train them, they know what it is and then they follow it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41m 6s): We'll go with you. It's consistency. It's authenticity. It's telling the truth in the moment and yeah. Staying true to what the vision is, whatever that vision is. But yeah, it also reminds me of like the good lighting is shouldn't be noticed or whatever is like, women should be seen and not heard. It's totally like fuck off.
Speaker 2 (41m 28s): So I was talking about something about myself too, and I almost was talking about leadership and I almost said, you know, because I was called bossy as a child, and now we acknowledge that. That just meant I was a leader.
Speaker 1 (41m 37s): Yeah. Right. It just meant that. And you know, it's interesting because my recollection of you in college was that you knew what the hell you were doing now. Granted, I mean, everyone has different, you know, I'm sure you didn't always know what you're doing. Cause you're a human being. But like my recollection of you is that you were like, I think maybe because also you were a grad student, right. So, but you definitely had vision. You were someone that I was like, oh, they know what they're doing and, and why they're doing it.
So there was this thing about you that I really felt from the little, I knew that like you had motivation or like a, a direction and also a curiosity, but, and a, I just, I just think you were like very early on like a master of your craft, which meant that also masters in my view, like really study and take the shit seriously and have a lot of pride in their work. That was it. Like not a lot of people had a pro. I mean, I can speak for myself. Like it wasn't like, I, I felt like you could stand behind your work.
I've always felt that like, when I read stuff about, about you or like when I follow your career, it's like you stand by your work. That's fucking phenomenal, you know?
Speaker 2 (42m 55s): Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel like a lot of that was also the training that we were getting in the, in the design program because we had, we had such good professors, particularly John, we, we, we had Franco Lovecchio was there for two years. Right. Who was the most wonderful, crazy human in the entire world. He would like, literally, like you'd be drawing in the studio and you'd be like drawing on something. And we all learned that you had to keep tracing paper over a culture, which is something called trace really. But we would, we would have trace taped to our drawing boards so that the minute he sat down, you could throw a trace over it.
Or he would just start drawing all over you drawing. And, but he would like nudge you off your chair while he was like, fixing your time for you. And you'd tell him, be standing there watching him doing your work. And you were like, maybe, maybe not, maybe, maybe I'm in school. Maybe I want to learn how to do that. He was so funny though. So great. But then John Colbert has, is like really like taught us like the, that you have to be able to justify the work that you have to understand the rules of the piece that you and the rigor that goes behind that. And Nancy Beulah, who's the same. Who was just this amazing.
She's the, she used to let, she used to let you do your project again, to get your grade up a little bit. And I would get like a B plus on something for her and I would do it again. And it wasn't even that I really needed. Like, I wasn't great. I wanted her to think I was working. Like I needed her to have that belief in
Speaker 1 (44m 15s): G she, there was something. So she costumed me and said she just, she was so affirming. And also like you, there was something about she, she made me believe that she knew that I was going to be okay and that I was going to be a professional and that I could do it. Like there was, it was amazing. It was so much, there was like a strong confidence that she instilled in me as a costume person, which I, I just felt, again, she stood behind her work too.
Like she was a bad-ass like, there was no like, ah, apologizing, there was no apologizing. And I feel like we just spent so much of our lives or at least I have apologizing that when I see someone like a career like yours, I'm like, oh, maybe this comes from not apologized. Like maybe not apologizing for, for us as women as in our work, you know, like this is badass work I'm doing and I'm going to continue to do it.
I dunno. It's just a fierceness.
Speaker 2 (45m 19s): Well, for me too, I feel like the thing that I'm proudest of in my, in my age and in my success is that I no longer feel like the pressure of having to be complete on the first day of tech. Like, I'm like, I'm going to put an incomplete, that thing up there, and I'm going to start to see how light is moving on these people and what that does. And I know it might not look good, but I'm not going to worry about that. It's going to be okay. You know, I'm going to be able to, I know I will make it look great. I know I can. I know that what I put up there for the first draft is going to be the right first draft, because I know what I'm doing and I know that it doesn't have to be complete.
Right. And I'm fine with that. And like, David is really great for that because he has no expectations of that either.
Speaker 1 (46m 3s): Yeah. That's fantastic. I mean, that's like really the difference between being product oriented and process oriented, right? Yeah. As an artist. And like, for me as a writer, like writing for TV, my first draft, if it's not, it's, it's terrible. And it's exactly where it's supposed to be. But if I have expectations or get in my own way and feel self-conscious about it, the whole thing is it doesn't work. So it's like, this is a shitty first draft. And by shitty, I mean, wonderful. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (46m 32s): So wonderful first draft, right? It's never supposed to be the final thing. Totally. We were also taught at school that because we don't stick around for the product, right. We're not part of the product. We, I mean, we are, we're making a product, right. Because we're not ever, once the product goes, our AR is there, we're gone from it that we need to be really process-oriented. And that our process is what's going to get us hired aspect of working with us.
Speaker 1 (46m 59s): I love that. And I feel like if we could, if we, I wish I would have learned that more and I'm not, I don't blame anyone for it. I just think it's the way the life is. But like, I'm, that's what I think I've spent my adult career as an artist becoming more process oriented and less product oriented and less and less judgy, right. About my and other people's process of, of like, it doesn't look the same. And so I think when you find a collaborator, which it sounds like David, what is for you that is also, and in the same sort of thought process in terms of how art is created, that's what works, because you're both sound like you're like no expectations for the first thing to be the thing.
Like it changes it pivots, it moves, it's moving, it's breathing and moving. And I think that that's probably why your work together is so powerful and profound is that you both have this view life view right. Of art that works together really well. Right. So, and that sounds fine when I find those people. Those are the people I want to stay with and work with. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48m 7s): Yeah. And I think too, like one of the things getting back to sound inside and David, is that like, I, the thing that people often comment on is my use of darkness on stage that I actually commit fully to it, that I don't have a problem having actress speak from the dark. And I did the first time I ever had something that was really dark. I was like, oh God, like, you know, you're taught that, that can't be funny. Right. People actually laugh at things that here in the dark, it turns out. And so, but so being able to like be tiny and focused and just have a little bit of light, you know, and sound inside became that piece, which was like, we created the premise of the play is that this professor is telling the, talking to the audience and we don't really know what that's about.
Like, I don't know. And I don't know the answer to that because I almost felt like knowing, like we don't want the audience to fully know. And I felt like if I know too much, then I, it may manifest. And so I never, even though Adam rap became, I tell him that he's the brother. I didn't get no offense to the brother. I did get, but I love Adam and I can ask him anything and talk to him about anything. But I have never asked him the truth of the play, which is, is it happening? Is it my meal? There's a character that we question is the character even real? Is she writing a book as she talks to the audience, this character, a Bella college professor, or is she, or there's a reference to a book at the end of the play that you like?
Did she steal that book? And a lot of that was taken, there were a lot more concrete parts of the story when we did it Williamstown and they were taken out for the Broadway production to let the audience sort of float in their own uncertainty more. And so the idea is that Bella, this character who, who is this professor is actually the only fully fleshed out part of the play at the beginning. And that we slowly revealed the world as she creates it as she sort of illustrating it. And so that actually gave me the ability to have this production that was like using little amounts of light, a lot of darkness.
Like I like, but also was in a way flashy, because we'd have like a big window on the side, on the wall of the sets. And then all of a sudden it would shift like instantly into a different time of day. And the shape of the window would change in the color of the window would change, but it was all very graphic. And then eventually within these like sequence of scenes in this office with this window, eventually the final one was this massive projection of a very real window. So, and so I got to work and I worked really closely with the production designer, who was the handsomest person in design.
His name is Aaron Ryan. If you ever meet him, you're going to be like, I didn't know that designers looked like that. I thought only actors did. Wow. And he's the best dude in the land. I love him so much.
Speaker 1 (50m 33s): So, so I guess yeah. Being mindful of your time, I just want to ask you if you, because we do have a lot of younger folks that listen to the show and that are interested in careers as designers, not just after, you know, now there's like such a, we're trying also to shine a light on designers. Cause it's awesome. Right. We don't, I mean, acting is not the only name of the game here. So what would you say if someone came to you and said, Hey, I'm interested in the theater.
What does, what w what kind of person do I, it's kind of a hard question, but what kind of person do I need to be, to be a designer? I know if I'm a designer, Heather,
Speaker 2 (51m 26s): I actually am really conscious of like the personality quirks of designers, because I watch it so much in my students. Right. And it's interesting because I am, I can't make a, I can not build a model. I cannot build a model. I, it was hated in school and it, but it's this really sort of detailed private work. And I'm a much, I'm super extroverted, which that doesn't mean all lighting designer extroverted, but like, I have to be able to work out here. Like I don't work here. I have to be able to work openly. I also have to work in public. Everybody is there when actors and designers have that rare thing in which actors and lighting designers, I should say, we, all of our work is done in front of other people.
You cannot, like, you might have a smaller room and only a couple people at first, but like, it's still the same and we don't get to make it privately. And then somebody builds it and we go, oh, paint it that way. Or even like, listen to in our headphones. No, you have to be okay with that. You have to be really good with like a super high level of pressure. And you have to let it roll off of you. I worked, I love Sean Graney. This will not surprise anybody who knew Shawn grainy or losing his Shaun could be very difficult in a tech. I'm not the easiest dude, always in the world, but I love him to death. And there was an actor that we used to work with who just would Marvel.
We worked with this person so many times and was a big part of the company. And with Marvel, it, me, because Sean would get tense and it'd be like really stressful and like pushing, pushing to get it done faster. And I would just let it all roll off. And it's because I have to be able to do that and know that this is my time. Right. Reclaiming my time. I was like, oh yeah, I do that all the time because I know that this is when I can do the thing. I also have to know when I can say, Hey, you know what? I can do this later. I can do this without people, or it's taking too long and it's slowing us down and it's, it's killing our process.
It's not letting us all move forward as a group. And I'll deal with this thing later. Right. But I also know that I have to do it now. And that's the way this process works until somebody changes it, I'm going to do it in the room. And so I will take my time. I have to be able to work as quickly as I can in that. And I have to know that I have to deal with the pressures from other people.
Speaker 1 (53m 27s): So it's got a little bit of, it's interesting. It's a it's human relationships that makes with time management mixed with reclaiming your time mixed with knowing when to, yeah. When you can let go and say, okay, I'm going to do, but like, I, I don't think people, at least I'll speak for myself. Younger people think that you need, well, the ones I encounter my students too, like, you need people skills as a designer. Oh, you need people skills. Like, just because you're not an actor doesn't mean you don't, you know, you got to work with people.
And I think your, from your interview, it's really clear that like, there's all different kinds of people you're going to work with, and you're not going to get along with all of them, but you can also figure out a way, right. To still have the process, be one of where you get your work done, get rehired. If that's what you want and still be a kind human and work, you know, in the industry. And I think that's really interesting that you, the rolling off the back. Yeah. Because people in tech and in tech and intense situations get bonkers bomb, bonkers, bonkers
Speaker 2 (54m 30s): Years ago, I was assisting on a production of the Scottish play in New York that George Wolf was directing that Angela Bassett and Alec Baldwin were starring in and the pressure and the pressure on it was super high. And then everybody who was a secondary person was like, we have Schreiber and Michael Hall and Zach brown.
Speaker 1 (54m 48s): I mean, it was our secondary
Speaker 2 (54m 50s): People. Cause they were babies that like Zach rabbit just finished school. Like let's start on it. And we, and the pressure was super high. And, and we were on the third floor of the building and the electric shop was in the basement. And my designer was like yelling at me and I would pass it on. I would pass that energy on. And the assistant lighting supervisor took me out for pizza and was like, you can't do that. And he was like, you have to be the wall. And if you can't be the wall, this might not be your job.
He's like, you can still be a designer, but assisting might not be the way you got there. And this guy must've been, I mean, he was maybe my age. He was probably younger than me. His name was Todd greatest thing that ever happened to me. Yep. It changed me forever. I was like, you're right. That is my job. And actually, I'm very good at that. I am a cheerleader and I'm a person who cares about people and I have no problem. I mean, there will be times that I'm not trying to say, I'm never put pressure on the people around me. I get impatient too. I'm not a patient person, but, but I can, I can try to protect the people around me. And I, and I love my team that people who make the lighting thing happen, you know, I kept, I, we won the, I did this production bug with David right before the pandemic.
And then we just did it again unless we could set them off. And we won the Jeff award for it. As I like to say, we won the Jeff award. Like my team won that award. I didn't do it by myself, but I actually took it into the first day of tech and we put it on the tech table for the second round. And I was like, everybody had my crew put a light on it and they would run the light up. And it was like, everybody may give me notes through the Jeff. The Jeff looks up notes for me. That's hilarious. I will speak to none of you. I will speak to Carrie Coon, Carrie Coon also want to Jeff that she may speak directly to me because what else do you do with an award? There's so weird there,
Speaker 1 (56m 30s): Right there, weirdness. And they're weird and they're nice and they're in your effort. And it's the only way we have really, as human acknowledged this stuff, but in a, in a sort of ceremony kind of a way, but like, all right, well, I just thank you for talking
Speaker 2 (56m 46s): Absolutely
Speaker 1 (56m 47s): Pleasing. And I, I, you know, I just, I'm always left when I talk to someone like you I'm like left with this wish for young women to know that there are so many jobs and careers in the theater that you don't just have to be an actor or an actress or whatever you want to call yourself. There are so many things. And, and by, and for me also, it's like, oh my gosh, please find someone that's doing the thing you might want to do and ask them questions and see if you can get information, you know, like an informational interview, which is essentially what we do on this podcast is do an informational interview with people we went to school with and other people, but like get the information.
So thank you for putting the information about your career and your journey out there for us. And we'll, we'll keep in touch and you'll get a copy to review before we air it. And, but just, thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (57m 45s): Totally. I'll send you guys some pictures I have to please. And, you know, they're printed. I actually had to go into a box and found
Speaker 1 (57m 51s): Them. It's a whole thing.
Speaker 2 (57m 53s): Yeah. Much like everybody else. I went through all of those during the pandemic. So I was trying to figure if I had one with me and Keith, cause that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (57m 60s): That would be fine.
Speaker 2 (58m 3s): It's funny. I love telling people in the, in the lighting community that like I drove her, we've been friends for so long. I drove him home from college for Christmas, his first year of college, you know, and then, and now he's like, like he did his first runway show at studio 54. And then I did my first Broadway show in studio 54. And like, yeah, I really love getting to share all of that with him. And he's a true and great artist. And I just,
Speaker 1 (58m 23s): Yeah, drawing. I was, I was like, what? This is, it was so special to me. And nobody had ever given me a drawing that they have done of the show in their design drawing. And it was, I cherish it. So yay designers and yay, yay. People who really give a shit. So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (58m 53s): If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram,
Speaker 0 (59m 21s): And Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Boz deserves a seat at the table, life coaches, let's be direct
Let Me Run This By You: Gina versus plots - is it just ADD?
Interview: We talk to Kate Dugan about living in Morocco, her playwriting program, Sandy Shinner, Victory Gardens, shooting yourself in the foot, being ready or not to take advantage of opportunities, Outliers, regret, Sandra Delgado, the Bad Boyfriend years, Austin Film Festival, Ola Rotimi, Actor's Training Center, Meisner, Erica Daniels, Bikram yoga
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Not a whole hell of a lot. I mean, I'm, I feel I'm right. I just real, really excited to like level up my, my work life game. Like, it doesn't even mean that I, it just means that, like, I actually feel like an adult, like I just feel at 47 right now.
1 (55s):
I'm 47. I feel at 47. Like I'm ready. Oh girl. Wait, am I 40? No, I had a birthday. October four. Yeah. You turned 40 you're you're you're desperate to be older apparently. Oh, I've been telling people 47. Okay. So what year were you born? 75, but I'm terrible at math for 46 years. Okay. So what was I saying about being the wrong age? Oh, I just feel like at 46, right? That's my age at 46. I am finally ready to get a job, like, okay. I need a writing job, like a, B a real job, a real job of like, of like, I feel like I finally deserve, I just, I'm starting to feel like I finally deserve a seat at the table.
1 (1m 47s):
I love that. Yeah, I definitely do. Yeah. I mean, I just do deserve it, but like the world needs for you to have that seat at the table. Thank you. And I finally feel like that is a possibility, you know, it's interesting. And I was going to ask you about this. So there are all these Clem coaches in Los Angeles. Oh, that's funny. I was going to ask you if something about coaches, but go ahead. Okay, great. So, so God bless him and I can just see everyone is really trying to earn a living, right? So like, everyone I meet is trying to help. I know a lot of hustlers, right?
1 (2m 28s):
So coaches now have this language. It's fantastic. First time a coach uses language with me. I thought it was so cool. And I was so special. They all fucking use this language. Good ones, bad ones, whatever. Okay. So they get to the part. I had a free introductory session with a woman who was wonderful, nothing wrong with her. I'm talking about specific coaching language around payment and charging people talking about the fee. Okay. So therapists my in my, you know, the way it was, well, I also worked for a social service agency. So I could like just people please, my way out of it and say, well, the agency charges this, you know, all of this. Okay.
1 (3m 8s):
But for all the people I've seen as therapists, they're pretty straightforward. They're like, my fee is 180 an hour. This is how much your copay would. I looked up your insurance, whatever coaches have a whole nother situation where they say things like, I don't usually do this. This is what they say more than one coach say this to me. I don't usually do this, but I'm going to do something I don't normally do, which is I'm gonna let you set your fee. How much is this worth to you?
2 (3m 36s):
Oh God. Oh fuck you. What kind
1 (3m 39s):
Of invest?
2 (3m 40s):
$7 and 50 cents.
1 (3m 42s):
What kind of investment are you willing to make in your future? Whatever, whatever they get. And then
2 (3m 51s):
If you low ball it, it's like, well, I guess you're not recommend it to your future,
1 (3m 54s):
Right. Or, and you must not value. You must not yet. Right? You must not think that you're abundant enough to bring it the way. So the first time someone said this to me, I was like, this is brilliant. Like I totally, and I bought in and I was like, and I, and, and I didn't know. I was like, okay, you know, $80 a session. And then she later, and then we did that for a while later, she told me that she charges like $2,000 for, oh my God. Like a packet. And I was like, what? Okay, so right. Okay. This person did not do this the other day. I had a free introductory session. And she said that, you know, when she's a woman of color and I really adore her, but it was the same language.
1 (4m 38s):
And it's not, it's what they're trained to say. And so I just am, so I was so naive. I thought this was like such a cool thing. And now I'm like, wait, everyone's using the same thing, which is, I'm going to let you set your fee to tell me how much you are invested in yourself. And I'm like, wait, that's manipulative. Just set your fucking fee. And if I just said fan, and if I don't pay it, I don't pay it. And we don't work together because otherwise
2 (5m 7s):
You're setting up the road. I mean, setting up the dynamic where somebody is going to feel resentful, right? Like if, if you're the coach and you're not charging what you, what you think you're. I mean, what about that? Why wouldn't you turn it back on them and say like, well, I really rely upon providers to tell me what they think they're worth by having an established fee. I mean, this is, it's so crazy. It's, it's like saying actually I've had this before with, I can't think maybe babysitters, like how much you charge. Well, whatever you feel comfortable with, I don't know what to do with that. Like, I mean, I feel comfortable paying you nothing. Does that mean that's what you want to,
1 (5m 48s):
Right? This is what we get in trouble with when, whenever there's a barter situation as well. Like I remember, oh my God, my dad is a anyway. I remember a psychologist getting into huge trouble at a friend, my dad's friend for bartering with therapy.
2 (6m 7s):
Oh my God. Like, make me homemade tofu or something like
1 (6m 11s):
Similar, like out, like you do my yard work. I'll do. I mean, I mean, like you get into trouble. It leads to trouble. I think it's better to be out of vagueness, set your fee and not, and just say, this is my fee. And if someone wants to have a conversation about the fee and do you lower it, and then you have a further conversation, whether you decide to lower it or not is up to you. But like, yeah, I don't like this, this,
2 (6m 39s):
No. And let's just be direct. I mean, this is another problem that we have, like with just, I don't know, globally with communication. I just feel like people are so darn indirect and it doesn't help. I'm not, I'm not suggesting that like, I can't use more, you know, finesse or be half softer or whatever. But like at the end of the day, I just want to know what it is. You're trying to say to me, you know, and I don't want to guess about it because I'm going to guess wrong. And then you're going to feel a type of way about it. And it's unnecessary.
1 (7m 12s):
It's unnecessary. And I do, you know, as much as, as much as I, I always think back, I had a therapist at the, at Austin Riggs in Massachusetts and Stockbridge and Dr. Craig Pierce. Right. And he, it was interesting. I wanted to call him Dr. Craig. And he was like, no, that is not my name. And, and I was like, this guy is such a douche, but really he was setting a boundary saying, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not your friend. I'm actually not your dad. I'm not your, this isn't, we're working. We're doing serious work here. And it's either Craig or Dr. Pierce, but you can't. And at the time I was like 21 or something. I don't know what I was, but I thought what a douche, but now I'm like, oh, he actually was, was trying to help me.
2 (8m 1s):
Let's just get this out of the way. This is how I expect to be referred to this is how much I expect to be paid. My thing about coaches recently is I feel like everybody is doing this group delusion about, like, we can't go to therapy. So we have to say, I mean, we could pay more for a coach than we might for a therapist. We could be more revealing with a coach that we were therapists. It's just turned into the stigma of like, well, I don't want to go to therapy, but you know, I want to have a coach. And the problem with that is it's so wildly unregulated.
1 (8m 34s):
Yes,
2 (8m 34s):
Exactly. If anybody can call themselves a coach,
1 (8m 37s):
Right. And even this, this coach that I saw was like, yeah, it's wild Lynn regulated. And I understand that, you know, so, so there are some, you know, weird coaches and she's lovely and she's trying to make a living. The other thing that is so clear to me is everyone is trying to make a living. So there is right. Everyone's trying, I give them points for trying, like you she's trying to have a coaching business. So, so right. I don't fault her for it, but I did. I was like, so shocked that the language, I was like, oh, here we go. She's going to say the exact thing that this other coach said. So, duh, there's all kinds of like classes that for free structure that could the coaches taste.
1 (9m 24s):
Are you going to see her again? I mean, I'm not, no, no, no, no, no. I told her, I was like, you know, I'm just really not in a position to do coaching right now. And I'm not, I have a therapy. I have a new therapist. Let me just pay the therapist who told me what our fee was. So it was interesting. The other thing that I think was interesting is like I took, the reason I met this coach was I took a workshop on a free workshop on imposter syndrome, which is another like thing that people are really throwing around now is imposter syndrome. And self-sabotage those kinds of phrases. So I took an imposter syndrome workshop, lovely workshop. And then they said, you know, we're going to have a raffle and see who gets a free coaching session.
1 (10m 5s):
Well, we all, did. We all won the RAF. I mean,
2 (10m 14s):
Oh my God. I mean, is everything a play Like a performance piece in Los Angeles?
1 (10m 24s):
Yeah, it is. It is. And it's so, it's so funny, but like, so yeah, I was talking to my friend, I'm like, who went to the workshop? I'm like, oh, I won the I wasn't coaching says, she goes, so did I? And then I talked to someone else who I met when I networked with like soda. I was like,
2 (10m 40s):
I really respect how much it seems like people in LA are devoted to self-improvement. I really, really respect that in a way that I just feel like people out here aren't or if they are, they don't talk about it. Maybe it's what it is. But it does seem, it does seem like people in LA are either they're on a health kick or a mental health kick or they're, you know, getting sober or I just feel like there's a lot of, there's a lot of
1 (11m 5s):
Types here.
2 (11m 8s):
And I appreciate the fact that everybody talks about that openly. Because if, if people are into that stuff around here, they don't talk about it. So I ended up feeling like, you know, I'm a weirdo.
1 (11m 19s):
I feel like it's like, like literally like old money versus new money. I swear to God it's like old, old paradigms versus new paradigms. And like, yeah, it's out in the open here, everyone's on some kick, but at the same time, it's also lessened because everybody's talking about it all the time and it becomes like the, like a F like a farce, like not sacred in any way. It's like,
2 (11m 47s):
Yeah. And I bet there's a lot of people who are doing the most, like in terms of self-help and they're just still the biggest, or they're just lying to themselves about the fact that they're, they feel like they're getting better, but they're really just haven't changed at all. Yeah. I mean, I think that like, living anywhere is a problem. Well, let me get out of here. I feel like, wow, you can really feel the Puritan vibe. I mean, it's yes. You really it's like, we don't talk about feelings. We, we talk about things on the surface. We don't reveal, you know, very much about ourselves. Wow. Yeah. Keep everything. It's all, it's very buttoned up.
2 (12m 27s):
Wow. When I first moved here, I really appreciated that, you know, I've done some wild swings geographically, like yeah. Growing up in Sacramento was kind of one sort of thing unto itself that doesn't relate that much to California. Yeah. And then going to Chicago was like, oh, okay. I like this. These people are really down to earth. You know, then I got kind of sick of that. And then I moved to back to California, to the bay area. And I really was into that for awhile. And then I felt like, oh my God, this is all. So this is all bullshit. Like talking about everybody was an imposter. I felt like everybody was low key. So aggro. And then just this hippie, you know, talking about free level the time.
2 (13m 8s):
And then we moved to New York and I was like, oh, people will just get right to the point here. I really appreciate that. And I never got tired of that, but then we moved here and I thought, oh, this is new England. This is what the pilgrims they've decided a way to be. And it's very buttoned up and they haven't changed in, you know, 300 years. For, you know, have like a little ideas folder in my notes where I just make it little snippets of ideas and write them down. And I've had like six or seven that I realized are all circling around the same idea, which is, I want to have a movie or some, or some type of a script where it's a superhero, but the superhero, their power is that they can interact through some type of magic.
2 (14m 8s):
They can intervene in somebody else's life when they're making bad decisions. This is sort of romantic coaching and like, Hmm, maybe it's virtual reality, but they, they can kind of put themselves into the body of the person who's making the bad decisions and then help them. You know, it's like, it's basically like the therapist having none of the barriers to, you know, wellness or whatever, and just kind of getting right in there at the same time as this is a comment about how we look to other people to tell us how to behave. Anyway, the superheroes name is psyche and I love it. And, and I'm, I'm it, I'm it.
2 (14m 49s):
I want to kind of continue with this idea, but I am woefully terrible with plot, as I think we've talked about before. I don't know if you're talking about the podcast before and it's such a, it makes perfect sense that my given my own psychology, that plot would be the hardest thing,
1 (15m 11s):
Because more that,
2 (15m 13s):
Well, my, my mother is the first person to tell you, she's never done anything with a plan. She's always just reacted to whatever has come her way. In fact, the idea of like having a goal and working towards it was literally something I never learned until I met my husband. Wow. When like a week, a day. And he was like, what are you going to do today? And I said, oh, I think I'm going to sit out in the sun. And he said, what? I thought you were trying to be an actress. I thought you were like, well, you don't have any time to sit down and do anything. Like you have a goal. And that, and that's been my thing is like, I, I have these vague undefined or have had vague undefined goals yet that in some ways I'm working towards, but because there's no sort of master plan or not a conscious one, if don't know how to get from a, to B to C I know everything about what it looks like as you're traveling from a to B to C, I had to describe it and everything like that.
2 (16m 10s):
But as far as charting a course of like, this is where I'm starting, and this is where I'm going to end up. That's pretty new to me. And I feel like that's why I struggle with clot. Cause I just don't have like a lot of idea of how something unfolds.
1 (16m 26s):
Seriously. Literally just ADHD. Could that be,
2 (16m 30s):
Oh, maybe you have ADHD.
1 (16m 33s):
Did we talk about
2 (16m 33s):
This? I have add
1 (16m 36s):
Or add. So if you have that, this is when I talk to writers who have add that this is their exact situation. Oh, okay. Excellent. With dialogue, excellent. With everything except the actual plot pointing to a, to B, to C you just, I think you just need a class in some add meds. Like I'm serious. I, I don't think, Hey, this is not a, this is, this could be a very practical thing. So, so my father had some big problems, but was a brilliant man in a lot of ways, right? His dissertation, he could see the whole thing where it was going to end up.
1 (17m 16s):
He knew what he wanted people to feel when he read it. He knew he could not write the thing. So my mother ended up writing it for him. Please don't take your degree away possibly anyway, because he couldn't do the, the actual thing. So I I'm wondering, just like my thing was kind of practical of finding a coworking space and not getting a divorce kind of a situation like yours is literally like, could be a physiological response to too much stimuli going on and how to get to, to your vision. So, and maybe
2 (17m 54s):
I need a coach.
1 (17m 56s):
Well, Gina funny, you should bring that up because I was going to say to you, how much is it worth for? You know, I tried to tell you as being your coach on our pocket,
2 (18m 6s):
That would have been so slick. That would have been like, you're like, I, wasn't going to mention this to you, but I'm actually becoming okay.
1 (18m 12s):
I'm actually a coach now. So anyway, that is my 2 cents. When you start saying, when you start talking about that, I was like, wait a second. This is not a psychological problem. I don't think,
2 (18m 25s):
Okay. I mean, you know what? That sounds right to me.
1 (18m 29s):
Well, it makes a lot of work. You're not lazy and you're not, it's not like you don't have ambition. That's not true because you we've talked a lot on the podcast about how, like having some sense of power is really important to you. Maybe not fame, but power, the power that comes with that. So I'm like, all right, so that's not someone that has no ambition, right? So that's gotta be a different mechanism in the brain. That's not connecting in some way because you're also a people pleaser. So if someone, so my guess is if I w I would wonder if we did an experiment, like if you were in a class, right. And the class person was the teacher, the person in authority was like, and you trusted this person or mentor, whoever writing group, whatever the higher power is in that moment said, she said to you, Gita, you must do, you know, act one must be written by this date.
1 (19m 18s):
I wonder if you do it,
2 (19m 20s):
I would, I totally would. In fact, that's a part of me has been like, should I try to get into an MFA program? I don't think that's the answer. I class first just take a class,
1 (19m 31s):
The script anatomy, there's all these classes that like, that we can talk about later, but like take a class. I know I should have taken a class and not enrolled in an MFA program. Like that was what I, I mean, it was,
2 (19m 44s):
Can I tell you one of my favorite slash least favorite things in the world is when I have a big problem. And the answer is like, something really is. I both love and hate that. I hate it because I think, wow, why didn't I think of that? And why have I spent so much time just like ruminating and cogitating and wringing my hands about something that has like a pretty straightforward answer. Yeah.
1 (20m 6s):
And a lot of times, a lot of times us, I think kids that weren't really, for whatever reason, didn't get what they needed, emotionally, make all these things. Our brain works overtime to try to figure things out when this solution, like, I remember, like when I started having panic attacks, I thought I had schizophrenia. I thought I went to the doctor. He's like, you have a panic disorder, take this pill. And I was like, what? Yeah.
2 (20m 31s):
How could it be that easy? How could it be? How could it be? I feel like in that if I were in your shoes, I would think, no, no, no, I don't just have something that everybody else has. I have a truly unique, right. Is that what you were feeling?
1 (20m 44s):
Yeah. I thought I was going to end up in a state run nursing and I had a panic disorder. It was so I couldn't, and I think it gets wrapped up in shame and wrapped up and I should be able to, I could be, you know, all that shit, but yeah, it, it, it was like, he was like, no, no, no, no, you have something called a panic disorder. It's in this book and it was a DSM. He was like, it's in this book. And he read the, the stuff, the criteria. And I was like, I had that. He was like, no shit. Which is why I'm telling you to take this pill, the Zoloft. And I was like, wow, it didn't even cross my mind. The other thing is, nobody tells you about it. Like a lot of the struggle that we have, I think at, or at least that I have is internal. Right. So I don't, I'm not sharing it with people, which is why I think the podcast is good because maybe someone's listening to the podcast going, oh fuck.
1 (21m 29s):
Maybe I just have a panic disorder or maybe I have add, or I need a class instead of my life is over.
2 (21m 36s):
I'm terrible. I'm fundamentally incapable of getting any better. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, thank you for that. What a gift
1 (21m 42s):
You gave me? Well, yeah, that's just what came forward. I'm like, wait, this is not a psychological weirdo, psychological pathological emotional problem.
0 (21m 55s):
Well,
4 (22m 0s):
Today on the podcast, we're talking to Kate, Dougan a playwriting major from DePaul theater school who currently lives in Morocco, where she teaches English. She is also a performer and has some interesting stories about her road from wanting to be a performer to deciding, to be a writer. So please enjoy our conversation with Kate Dougan
2 (22m 27s):
Oh my God. You haven't changed you one
1 (22m 30s):
Tiny bit. Let's say.
3 (22m 34s):
Thanks. Wow. Nice to see you girls. Do you guys look the same? I can't believe it. 30 years almost, right?
2 (22m 41s):
Yeah. Don't say it like that.
3 (22m 43s):
1 (22m 53s):
It's a long
2 (22m 54s):
You go by Kate.
3 (22m 55s):
Yeah. I go by Kate now. I grew up from Katie. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.
2 (23m 3s):
Well, Kate Dougan congratulations used for five to theater
3 (23m 7s):
School. I did. I did.
2 (23m 10s):
You are now in of all places, Morocco, what the heck's going on in Morocco?
3 (23m 15s):
I'm teaching a high school here at an American high school. Yeah. My husband is Moroccan. So that's how we ended up here. We met in Chicago, worked together and in 2018. Yeah. We just decided it was, you know, he, his parents are, you know, getting a little older and he had not lived in Morocco for about 20, 25 years. And so he decided, you know, he wanted maybe try to come home for a little while. And so he got a job at an American high school. He's a teacher, he's a math teacher. And so we came and then I, I started sort of in one job that didn't really work for me.
3 (24m 2s):
Cause I initially thought like I was coming to teach theater. Always. The reality is never quite the same as what everybody says is gonna happen. And so, but when we got here, so I tried to teach a theater class, it didn't school wasn't quite ready for it. Then I sort of morphed into teaching English as a second language. And then last year during, well, during 20 19, 20, 20, I got my teaching accreditation to teach high school English. So I teach English language and literature. So yeah. Yeah. How cool do you like it? I do, actually.
3 (24m 43s):
I like it a lot. I, you know, everybody says the teaching is the hardest job and in many ways, teaching really is the hardest job. Like you, it's a lot of work and it's kind of, it's almost like doing like five shows a day, but you have to write all of your own material and learn all of your own material. And you know, it, it, you have to sort of, you have to really be ready for like a group of high school kids. I mean, these are, you know, they, they want to be engaged and they want to be entertained and they want to, you know, and if you can do those things and talk to the kids and be real with them, then you know, it works.
3 (25m 28s):
And on days that you're not quite up for it, it's a little tough. But yeah, I do like it a lot. I mean, I think that if you like to be in the room with the kids, then, then you you're, you're going to win, you know? Yeah. There's, I think that there's unfortunately, a lot of teachers who don't necessarily like children. And so you kind of questioned that sometimes. I'm sure we've all had experiences as students in that kind of situation. But yeah, I liked the kids. I liked being with high school kids, you know, they're alive and interested and you know, they haven't given up yet.
3 (26m 11s):
It's true. There, there, I read something to them the other day about, yeah, they're not dead yet. They're still alive. So that's, that's what I like about it.
1 (26m 21s):
The other thing I was going to say is that my, my mom was a teacher and she used to say the first year of teaching, like full-time was the hardest year of her life. And she like cried every day after school and it was the most rewarding. And so I, yeah, yeah.
3 (26m 39s):
I mean, my first year was 2019 or 20. So 2019 to 2020, I was doing my accreditation and I was teaching part-time and that was March, 2020, obviously it was all online. And then September, we started back, it was my first year teaching full time. And, you know, we had one class that was online and then everybody, you know, the kids had the option to be online if they wanted to. So there was one class online and then there were students in school and yeah, you're just trying to, you know, learn, figure out what you're doing and teach yourself the material and, you know, stay alive and handle whatever it was.
3 (27m 20s):
It was, it was a very stressful year. Last year I got to the, I got to June and I was really tired and really stressed out. And I just, you know, the good part of that is I have declared this year. I will never let myself get into that state again, you know, whatever I have to do to maintain my balance is really important to me. And so far it seems to be working. I I'm feeling much more on top of things this year, so. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah.
2 (27m 55s):
So beef, let's talk about the period of time you decided to go to theater school. You did, you caught up on the east coast.
3 (28m 7s):
Yeah. I, well, not exactly. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I know. I always thought of it as east coast. And then years later I was like, I think Pittsburgh is really Midwest. Like, I mean, it's, it's like this close to Ohio where I was from was like this close to West Virginia. So there's a whole other element going on. So it almost, you know, it is east coast, I guess, officially, but it has sort of a Midwest sort of feel like blue collar, you know, town, but yeah, so I grew up in Pittsburgh. I, I don't know.
3 (28m 48s):
Do you guys just want me to do grow
2 (28m 49s):
Performing and I do high school plays
3 (28m 52s):
And stuff. Okay. So not, not as much as I would've liked. I knew from a very young age that I did want to go into theater. We, we lived up the hill from a small college Washington and Jefferson college. I'm from Washington, Pennsylvania. And you know, they built a new like art center one year. And I remember going to see my first theater show there and it had just opened. And I think it was the Rainmaker. I think my dad knew the guy, the place Starbuck, and I just, you know, like, so we want to see the play and it was just the whole experience of it, you know, going to the theater and sitting in the audience and the lights and the people.
3 (29m 36s):
And I just remember like when the lights went down at the, at the end, I was just like, that's what I wanna do. I wanna do this, you know, how old were you? I was eight actually. So I, yeah, it got me at an early age. I wish I had gotten set on something else a little bit. But
1 (30m 0s):
Why Did the theater break your heart?
3 (30m 5s):
Ah, did the theater break? My heart? Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's, everybody's journey is different. Yeah. I mean, in some ways it's not that it broke my heart now. I feel like I just wish I had no, of course. I mean, I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't change the trajectory. I wouldn't change that love, you know, like that feeling. But I think just like when you experience something like that, it's such a young age, like your mind gets like really set on that thing. And like, I think it's important to grow and change and you know, obviously I've done that and I've done other things.
3 (30m 46s):
It just, I don't know. No, because I don't wish it was really different. So I, but I, you know, we all have our moments, right. I'm sure. Of course.
1 (30m 57s):
Yeah. That's what this whole podcast is about where we were like, what the fuck was that? And theater broke my heart over and over again. I thought it was going to be one thing or the business and I, it was not that thing. So I, for me, it's been a off and on heartbreaking experience with the theater. And that doesn't mean that there hasn't been intense love to, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's all part of the same, but yeah. So you, you, from a young age, you were like, you saw Rainmaker and you were like, that's it? Yeah.
3 (31m 25s):
So that's what I want to do. And so, I mean, but like I said, it was a small town there wasn't like a whole lot going on there. I never really took any acting classes or anything until I was in high school. You know, I went like there was a, there was an acting teacher at my high school. And I just remember like going to her class and being like super excited to finally like, get to do this thing. And like, you know, she asked everybody to kind of give a spiel like about what they want to do. And so I talked about it. I was like, this is really what I want to do with my life. I'm really excited about it. I, I just, you know, this is it for me.
3 (32m 6s):
And, and I just remember her, like, it wasn't necessarily that day, but like at some point she just kind of looked at me and she was like, oh, you're the one that wants to be an actress. And it was like that first, like, I'm sure you guys have experienced this. It was like that first experience of like, oh, I guess like me being excited about it, isn't necessarily going to get people to be positive with me. There was certain that there was an element of bitterness, I guess, which I think happens to people, you know, and I think it happens justifiably.
3 (32m 53s):
And so I think, you know, it's very important to me that I don't become bitter that I, and I'm glad I haven't, but I, I felt it was a very, it was like that first experience, like, okay, this is somebody that I, I, this is something I want to do. And this is somebody that can help me. And she was just not very enthusiastic about being helpful to me, you know, like, yeah. Who knows I was, it was kind of a weird year for me. So maybe I, you know, wasn't a very good student or something, or maybe she,
1 (33m 25s):
She, she, that's a shitty you you're probably right on. No, no, because I know because I've done that to people. Actually, I, I feel like I've dampened peoples. I do this with my husband all the time where I rain on his parade. And she rained on your parade a little bit. I'm not saying it's not that she doesn't have good reason to rain grades, but she did. And that, that is sort of, we hear it a lot. So I would think for someone to either either blatantly or inadvertently reign on a youngster's parade in terms of their artistic dreams.
3 (33m 57s):
So like at high school, I wasn't really that, like, I, I think I, we did like a play for my English class or something. So I don't know. I, I try, like I was in speech and debate and I went to one meet. And let me tell you like the power of the mind. Like I got laryngitis that day. Like I got laryngitis on the bus on the way to the meet and couldn't talk all day. And then on the bus on the way home I was able to speak. And so, you know, I think, you know, there's, yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a whole other
1 (34m 37s):
Didn't keep going with speech and debate
3 (34m 39s):
Or you had no, I don't think I did. I don't really remember. I obviously it was not a huge part of my life because I think at some point I was like, okay, this is not the person that's going to help me. I'm not getting feeling very positive vibes here. And so I'm gonna try to, you know, do other things. So then I started taking acting classes.
1 (34m 60s):
Did she wait to interrupt? Did she run the speech and debate thing too?
3 (35m 3s):
Yes, she did. Oh, no.
1 (35m 5s):
So that's, I mean, there you go. I mean, that's
3 (35m 8s):
How my mom
1 (35m 9s):
Running.
3 (35m 11s):
Yeah. Who knows. Anyway, so then I started going to like taking acting classes in downtown Pittsburgh. There was the civic light opera, and they had like an academy of, it was musical theater, but I just took straight acting classes. I was never like really a singer or anything like that. And that was a really positive experience for me. I had a great teacher, Jill, and, you know, we did a lot of scene study and she was, she was the opposite, you know, she was a very positive person, very loving and sweet. And, you know, really, you made me feel good about what I was doing and what I could do.
3 (35m 52s):
So, you know, there are those people as well that, you know,
2 (35m 57s):
Who suggested that you could pursue it for college.
3 (36m 5s):
I mean, I think it was never, for me, it was just never a question like, but I long story, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't in the acting program at DePaul, I was in the play. I was in the wait. I was in the, I was in the playwriting program. Yeah.
2 (36m 27s):
Why do I remember you as being in class with me? But I feel like I remember you as being one of the actors. I remember seeing you on Steve.
3 (36m 38s):
No, I, I, I doubt it. I, I, unless
2 (36m 42s):
Were you in a play onstage?
3 (36m 44s):
I don't think so. No. I mean, unless it was like some kind of workshop for one of my plays or something like that, but no,
2 (36m 54s):
I mean, do you remember me at all? I
3 (36m 56s):
Do remember. Yeah. I remember you guys. I remember you completely. I just, so I think I graduated. I was a year older than you guys. I think. When did you graduate? I graduated in 96. Okay. So yeah, one year older. You will, so, okay, go ahead.
2 (37m 14s):
Awesome. Yeah, that happened. What the hell?
3 (37m 19s):
Well, let me, let me dial back to, to where, cause you asked me if my teacher wanted me to go to college and for me, like there was just no other, I was going to school for theater and there was no stopping me. You know, it was funny. I've listened to some of your podcasts and, and I listened to Caitlin Kiernan's and she was just like, you know, I was 18. Like, what do you, you know, like what did I think? I don't know, but I just, this is what my mind was set on. So, so I'm sure she, she, I remember her telling me that that acting teacher, she was like of all of my, you know, she put me aside and this one other girl, Heather, who I think has actually done pretty well. I think she lives in LA and you know, there's not a lot of TV work.
3 (38m 0s):
And she was like, you know, she's like of my students. I think you guys have real potential to make something in this business. So she was very positive. So then I started auditioning. I auditioned for probably not enough schools. I should've heard DePaul and like Carnegie Mellon and I think some other, a couple of other schools. And so then I kind of had my mind set in Chicago. My brother lived in Chicago for a couple of years and I had gone to visit him. And I just really like fell in love with the city. And I always knew that I wanted to go to school in a city. So I kind of got my mind set on Chicago. I was like, well, if I get in the car to Carnegie Mellon, I'm from Pittsburgh obviously, but I didn't.
3 (38m 45s):
So then I auditioned for DePaul and I didn't get in my first, I didn't get in. And so I decided to take a year off and try again, which my dad was not super happy about, but I just had my mindset. I was like, no, I'm going to take year off. And then I'm going to try it again. I'm going to audition again. And that's it. And it ended up being, you know, I think taking your off was a good thing for me. I auditioned again and I didn't get in again. And so, you know, it's funny, like listening to these stories of you guys, like, and all the struggles that you went through and it's like, well, you know, well, at least you, you got in what's true.
3 (39m 33s):
Like there are different struggles. Yeah. There are different struggles for sure. But then so, and I, when I didn't get in the second time, I was just, I don't know. I think I was just set on Chicago. I was kind of set on DePaul. They'd offered me a place in theater studies program. And so I took it and then I, I decided when I was there to do join the playwriting program, and this is 1996 or 1992. And I was like, at that point I was like, literally like the only person in the playwriting program. My first year, there was like one person who was like a sophomore.
3 (40m 14s):
I think it was like the second or third year that Dean Corrin was there. He had just been taken on to start this program. And so, yeah. And then as I went through like a few other people joined like Diane Herrera and I think Adam Matthias was also in the writing program. And so while I was there kind of grew a little bit. Yeah. So I, it was, you know, I mean, I don't know. You just want me to keep talking? I feel like
2 (40m 51s):
I was just ask a question about the theater studies program, because I don't know that we've ever really talked about that program and, and how you just described it, made it sound like that's where people can go to figure out what non-acting thing they want to do in theater.
3 (41m 9s):
I mean, I think I, to be honest, you know, I mean, let's not kid ourselves college is about making money. Right. For, for most people it's, for-profit, it's private school. I think that they wanted to build the program and yeah. I don't know what it was. I mean, I think I did pretty good on my SATs. My grades were decent and I don't know, maybe my audition was okay. And so it was sort of, yeah, like, you know, they offered it to people like, you know, if you want to come, you're not invited to the acting program, but if you want, you can come to the theater studies program. And so I said, no, the first year, and then the second year I was like, I'm ready to go to school. I mean, sometimes I think I probably would've been better off like going to like a smaller school that didn't necessarily require an audition or something like that, but say levee.
3 (41m 57s):
Right. And, and so, yeah, I was like, well, I guess I'll do playwriting. And I, I, I mean, I'm glad I did it for many reasons. It was not, it ended up being a really good choice for me. I mean, I think like listening to you guys talk about the competition and, you know, sort of like, I don't do well with rejection. You know, I think you really, I don't, I don't necessarily like love to be the center of attention. And I think like, as an actor or at least to be successful on some level, you have to want that attention.
3 (42m 42s):
I mean, you guys do, do you feel that you like being the center of attention? She does.
1 (42m 49s):
Like, I love, I am constantly and mine is, if you listen to the podcast, like we talk about the psychological stuff. Like, I, I still, you know, feel like I wasn't treated right as a kid. So I'm constantly, I'm so transparent about it. I'm constantly trying to get the approval of my mother. Who's dead by the way. So yeah, I, I can say that, like, I want to belong and I want someone to say you are special and I pick you. That's like my dark sort of shadow side. And it always will be for me. I think even if I work through it, I think we all have our shadow sides and that's, and that's mine. And I think it transformed into, oh, maybe if this school likes me, that will give me that sense, but I never got that from DePaul because, you know, one it's that set up for that too.
1 (43m 37s):
People are bitter and weird and three it's an inside job. Yeah.
3 (43m 41s):
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like part of it was, I am the youngest of four and so I think it was like that craving for attention. Like I totally get what you're saying there. So, I mean, I like to be on stage, but like, I don't necessarily like the auditioning part of it and I don't necessarily, you know, like have to be the center of attention to parties or any of those things. But I did, you know, I really did enjoy, I really do enjoy acting like I, I do like it, but so
1 (44m 12s):
You, you,
3 (44m 12s):
You were doing a playwriting BFA. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You did.
1 (44m 18s):
And your plays got workshopped.
3 (44m 21s):
Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the program was still very fledgling and I think because, you know, I wasn't in the acting program, you know, I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder, I think admitted,
1 (44m 43s):
Wait, I just have to say, like, there's something really fierce about auditioning twice for the program and then going to theater school, studying theater studies, look at your, at a young age to say, you know what? I fucking want to go to school. So I'm going to, I mean, talk about, I, I see it as, you know, I hate calling people brave, cause I think it's kind of sending, but I think it's fierce to say I'm still going to go to this school. I mean, of course you had, I would have a chip on my shoulder so big. I wouldn't go. Yeah. You went and got an education for God's sake in a degree.
3 (45m 16s):
Yeah. And I, I, I got a really good education, you know, that's part of what was really positive for me. And I'll go back to the question about workshopping in a second. But what was positive for me is that the theater school had this glitch in their, in their system in because the acting students had to take so many classes cause you guys had yoga and movement to music and scene study and whoever knows what else. So like as part of your tuition, you could take up to 24 credits. And so what I did is I then got a really great liberal arts education.
3 (45m 57s):
I took poetry writing classes. I took like performance of literature. I took video editing. I took intro to film. I took like,
1 (46m 10s):
We'll do you could do that Kate? Like, how did you figure out like, oh, I have 24 credits. I'm going to use these.
3 (46m 15s):
I really don't. I don't know that anybody told me, I think I just figured it out at some point. And I was like, okay, well I guess I'm going to get my money's worth and I'm going to go take these other classes and these other schools and learn how to write and learn how to make films and do intro to film and learn, you know? So like I really loved college. I don't, you know, the theater school was, I don't have anything negative to really say about the theater school either. I knew what I was getting into. Like I said, I sort of had that chip on my shoulder to begin with about being part of the theater school about feeling like Jen, like you said, like about feeling like an insider, but you know, all my friends were in the theater school.
3 (47m 2s):
I, I love theater people. I really enjoyed that experience. But, but part of my good college experience happened outside of it in many ways, just because I kind of took the reins and I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have some fun with this and get a good education and, and play. And I, I loved it. I loved school. I loved learning new things and try new things. I even, I even took like a leave of absence from the theater for theater school for one quarter. Cause I did a, an overseas, I went to Ireland for a quarter.
3 (47m 43s):
So, and to do that, I had to take a leave of absence from the theaters. Yeah. Does that seem familiar? Yeah, probably Kelly was crying because I was supposed to be her roommate, but I never got which Kelly Kelly and Mick Adams. I was when I came back from Ireland, we were supposed to be roommates, but I never called and she just got her own apartments. And then I was like, oh my God, I don't know where I'm going to live. But yeah. So I, you know, anyway, so back to my theater school experience, so was, was positive also for playwriting. I, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, Dean Corrin was great, you know, we took like dramatic criticism we had yeah.
3 (48m 30s):
You know, another, another theme that I have, you know, listening to your podcast and you guys talked about it a little bit is like self-sabotage or not taking advantage of the opportunities presented to you. I feel like, because I kind of had that chip and I wanted to be an actor. Like I didn't necessarily take advantage of the opportunities, like playwriting opportunities, which came easier of course, because cause that's the way it goes, because if you want something it's not going to be, you know, it's not going to be easy, but if you're kind of, sort of like, well maybe, maybe not then the opportunities roll in, but yeah, like we had a poetry or a playwriting workshop class with Sandy Shinar she worked at victory gardens at the time.
3 (49m 18s):
Yeah. And she was good friends with Dean and like he had her come in as like a guest teacher one day and we were going to work my play and he'd given it to her and she had read it and, and I was just, I don't know. I, I just was like, oh God, I hate that. I really don't want to work on it. Do we have to do this? Can we do something else? And like how we shoot ourselves in the foot, you know, like what an opportunity really? And because I was insecure and scared, I'm sure like whatever psychological, you know, thing you want to come up with that, that, that we, we do to why, why we do these things for ourselves.
3 (50m 1s):
So, you know, and I, I had other opportunities like that along the way that I didn't necessarily take advantage of. But
1 (50m 8s):
Did you pull your play or did you work
3 (50m 10s):
On it? We didn't work on it. No, because there was somebody else in the class who was much smarter than I was and was like, oh, well here's my play. We can do my play. We can work on mine today. Yeah. I know. That's really that's.
1 (50m 26s):
I mean, I totally relate. And I think it, it just speaks to many things, but like, you weren't ready for that and that's it. And I, I'm starting to look at things like ready versus not ready versus good and bad. So you just weren't ready to have that experience. And we can look back and, you know, I listened to Gina and I talk to people on and we're like, we blame ourselves for that, but you just simply didn't have the emotional resources to take in that experience. And that sucks. But,
2 (51m 1s):
And when you're not ready, it, people could say anything to you. That person could have said, we want you to be the new resident playwright, a victory gardens. You would've said, I don't think so.
1 (51m 13s):
I could've gotten the laryngitis again. Like it it's, we couldn't stop.
3 (51m 19s):
That's so interesting. I mean, I agree with you. I think you're, I think you're right. And that's, that's hearing it come from you. It, it, it's nice Rather than me saying it to myself or trying to figure out, like, why, why do I do these things to myself?
1 (51m 37s):
And it's interesting having done all these podcasts, Kate, we see it over and over again. So we have the data to tell you that people have, we've heard like so many people like with these ICTs being offered these things and being like, no, I'm not going to move to LA because you know, I have an apartment in Wrigleyville. Like I'm not going to be a movie star. And people are like, what's the D we all have that. I think that's part of growing up. And I also also think it's part of expecting young people to really handle a lot of things we cannot handle.
3 (52m 11s):
Yeah. They're one of the books that I, I teach my students is called outliers. Have you guys read it? It's Malcolm Gladwell. And he, you know, there's a section in where he talks about practical intelligence and you know, how some people, the people that are successful, you know, they grow up with a certain family life, or, you know, maybe it's about money. It's about education. It's about these things. But it's also just knowing how to handle yourself in certain situations and knowing how to take advantage of the opportunities that are presented to you. And I think if you aren't, if you don't have that, or you're not taught that it is hard sometimes to, you know?
2 (52m 50s):
Yeah. And what, I just heard you, I mean, when you said, it's good to hear that from us, that made me think, oh, you've been beating yourself up about this for 25 years to yourself. Why did I squander this opportunity? Which, I mean, whether or not you did it, it's completely human. That, that you might occasionally have that thought, but have you spent a lot of time in, in regret?
3 (53m 18s):
I mean, I don't think so. I think I don't spend a lot of time in regret. You know, I definitely had moments over the years. I, well, a few years back, I sort of had like a little bit of a, not a breakdown, but like, I think of my midlife crisis started and like my, you know, I have two kids and my daughter was, you know, eight and my son was four and it was just kind of like, you know, you know, when kids are babies, it's just baby, baby, baby, baby. You don't, you don't have time to think about yourself. So who cares? And then like when you start to get back to yourself a little bit, it's just like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm 42 or, you know, whatever, and what have I really done?
3 (54m 8s):
And you know, what am I doing? And you know, is this, this, this it, I mean, I, I was teaching yoga. So, I mean, that's also a part of my journey. I mean, like I, so when I got out of school, like I did acting for a while, like, I've done some very bad independent films. Do you guys know Sandra Delgado? Oh yeah. Yeah. She, I like, we did a really bad film together in the early two thousands. And, you know, like I did like a horror film and I was like, had some small parts as mother independent films.
3 (54m 52s):
And, you know, I, I was trying to act and auditioning and auditioning and auditioning and like I did a couple of plays, but it was just never, you know, I just could never get to a certain point. I really just, I would have done theater and crappy theater and whatever, but I just, I couldn't, you know, for whatever reason, you know, I have the, that decade that I called the, the bad boyfriend years, so which we can all relate to on some level, which I, you know, where we all waste a lot of energy on people who don't deserve it. Oh yeah. Yeah. And then, so, so then, yeah, like a few years back, so it was kind of not in a good place.
3 (55m 39s):
And I was like, okay, well, I guess it's now or never. And I, I finally finished the play, so I went back to writing. Yeah. That's huge. That's awesome. You know, I finally cause I, I was like, okay, I guess if I'm going to try, I guess I gotta try. And, you know, I, I really discovered a few things. I discovered that I like writing. I, I feel good when I'm doing it. You know, there's a lot of positives to it in that way. I finished the play. I, it got, it got into like the second round at the Austin film festival.
3 (56m 19s):
So that was, yeah, that was pretty cool. I guess, since it was just like my first foray out of doing anything in theater in quite some time, and I had a stage reading in Chicago and then it sort of, you know, petered out after that. I, I was sending it out, sending it out, but no, no, no hits after that. But so, you know, I'm kind of gearing up to write again. So, no, I don't, I don't have, I don't, I haven't been beating myself up about it. I think that, you know, life takes a course and you can only do what you are doing in the time that you're doing it.
3 (57m 0s):
You only have the information that you have. You only have the life skills that you have. You only have the resources that you have. And so I think regret, I don't waste a lot of time on regret. I have enjoyed listening to the podcast and sort of like you said, Jen, like everybody's story is the same, a little bit. And that, you know, a lot of people who, you know, I've looked up to and had a lot of respect for and were really good actors and good at what they did. It just didn't happen for them. And so that's, that's like, I, yeah.
2 (57m 37s):
So I'm still just trying to, I'm still trying to wrap my head around why I just remember you as being an acting student, maybe it had to do with that. You were friends with Kelly and maybe because of your friendship with Kelly.
3 (57m 54s):
Yeah, probably that was it. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was friends with all the apartment three crew. I, yeah.
1 (58m 2s):
So I mean, I like, I like that even like deeper in my brain, I was like, what if I was taking on your desire to be an actor? I saw you as an actor because it was so strong that you wanted to be an actor. Like, I literally have an image of you on stage, but I actually can't
3 (58m 22s):
Be somebody else. Yeah. I
1 (58m 25s):
It's your face. It's really weird. So, anyway,
3 (58m 27s):
I mean, I guess at one time, like I had a play that maybe I did a stage reading of with Darryl Dickerson at school and maybe some other actors, maybe Kelly was in it. I don't know. But that would have really been like in a classroom. Yeah, yeah, no, I not an actor or, I mean, I am an actor, but none of the theater school. Yeah.
2 (58m 54s):
So these days, I mean, when you're talking about the work of being an English teacher, it reminded me actually, ironically, just a few days ago, I ran across a notebook that I haven't opened since I was a teacher of social studies and drama. And I re remember that I used to take for social studies. I used to write my lesson like a monologue kind of, and sort of not memorize it exactly, but almost like repeatedly rehearse it because it was not information that I already knew. I was learning the lesson right before I taught it. And teaching is so performative that during that time I was doing theater at the time.
2 (59m 35s):
But even if I weren't, I think I would have felt fulfilled in a performance way. Do you have that feeling about being a teacher? That it feels like a performance?
3 (59m 50s):
I guess what I, I do like the exchange of energy, like, like you would get from say a live audience or something like that. I don't know that I necessarily look at it as a performance, but I do feel like, yeah, you, obviously you have to be ready. You have to know what you're going to say. You have to know the material. And like, even if it is you just learning it that day or getting, you know, I feel that exchange, like, I feel good after class, like after talking with the kids and being with the kids and talking at them and, and teaching them, it does feel that way, like a little bit like that exchange of energy that you get from an audience a little bit.
3 (1h 0m 35s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 0m 37s):
Do you otherwise feel a kind of a need to do, do you have a need for any other type of creative outlet or your guys you're doing it because you're kind of getting back into
3 (1h 0m 48s):
My goal is to, yeah. To start writing again, like, I, I don't know how, what your, how you guys write. Like, I don't know what if you're constantly writing all the time or for me it's, it's like, I tend to sort of get inspiration and then work on something, you know, in a, in, in a period of time. Or if I create the discipline, like when I finished this play, I was getting up at like four 30 every day. I was teaching yoga at the time and the kids were, you know, still pretty young. And so I knew that the only way it was ever going to work is if I was disciplined enough to, you know, set that time aside, this is my time, my time to write.
3 (1h 1m 33s):
And so now, you know, after, like you said, you know, that first year is so hard, so now I'm starting to get my legs again. And I'm hoping to, yeah. Maybe start working on something I have, I've like dabbled in screenwriting before a little bit. So I'm thinking about, maybe I'm getting too into that a little bit.
1 (1h 1m 57s):
I have a question for you when you took playwriting. So this is interesting because it was such a young program, right. Was there any actually teaching of writing at the theater school, Like how to write a play?
3 (1h 2m 12s):
You know, it's funny about that. It's funny because I mean, like, I, it feels like we would write and we give it the stuff to Dean and we had deadlines and things like that. And he would give us feedback on it. You know, it's the funny thing is, is like the only, I feel like the only piece of practical writing advice that I ever got, and I, this is nothing against Dean. It's just what I remember. So Dean was awesome. I loved him. Well, we had a visiting playwright from Nigeria all over TIMI. I don't know if you remember him being there. He was there for like one quarter and he basically just like, kind of taught me to, to write a bit, you know, he's like, he's like, you have this scene here.
3 (1h 2m 57s):
And the guy he's at the cafe and he wants his coffee, but the waitress isn't giving him his coffee. He has to keep asking for his coffee over and over again. And it was just like, oh, you mean, I have to create like a little bit of dramatic tension in the scene, what a revelation. Right?
2 (1h 3m 16s):
Like it just a Mo create
3 (1h 3m 17s):
A moment. I felt like, you know, he gave me some real practical advice. It was just like, okay, you just have to, you know, these two people are here and you have to kind of, he wants his coffee and she won't give him his coffee and that's where the comedy comes in. And so, yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know how much, you know, they taught me about writing. I feel like I could have used a little bit of more help, like in practical matters, you know, listening to Kate's thing when you guys all went out for your showcase and that kind of thing. Like if somebody had talked to me more about submitting my work, maybe that would have been helpful.
3 (1h 3m 58s):
I mean, it's so weird though, to think of it at that time. I mean, I was, we were sending out headshots through the mail. We were sending out work through the mail. I mean, you have to go
1 (1h 4m 14s):
You'd have to go to what was called Kinko's then print out your play and then, and then mail it in an envelope to theaters or drop it off in person.
3 (1h 4m 24s):
And there was like that, like one place where you could get your headshots downtown, like the one like photography place where you could go and get like your headshots in bulk and you'd have to go pick them up. And like the blue
2 (1h 4m 35s):
Box. I remember the blue box.
3 (1h 4m 37s):
Yes. I still box exactly. You know,
1 (1h 4m 44s):
I think, or
2 (1h 4m 45s):
Yeah, something like that. So. Okay. So then let's talk about the period between graduating and we're where you are now. So you, well, you said you were auditioning,
3 (1h 4m 57s):
So I graduated. Yeah. And then after that, I, I, you know, I would go in spurts of productivity, you know, where I would audition a lot. You know, I was always looking at performing, you know, once again, trying to, I took a lot of classes in Chicago. I, I took classes at the actor's center. They had a lot of Meisner there. I did Steven, Steven. I have a villages program. He had a studio in like Wicker park. And so he had like a, like a, I think it was like a nine month program or something. So you would, you know, go and you'd be with the same group.
3 (1h 5m 40s):
And I went through a program there. I took classes downtown at, I forget what it's called now, the audition studio, or, you know, and I remember taking like an on-camera class with Erica Daniels. And who was the other, who was the lady that she always worked with? The casting director. Do you remember she was blonde
1 (1h 6m 8s):
Phyllis at Steppenwolf?
3 (1h 6m 9s):
No. It was like a casting director. Her name began with an ass. I want to say it was like Sharon or Sally, or, I dunno, she was like a big casting director at the time. So I took like an on-camera class with them, you know, I, Yeah. I don't know. It's funny cause like you, you, there's these moments where you realize like you're trying to be funny and it just, isn't funny and it just ends up really awkward. And that was one of those moments with them, you know, you're trying to impress somebody and, and she, I was sort of like chubby in high school.
3 (1h 6m 57s):
And so I think that as with most women who have issues with body issues, like you, you have those body issues forever. It takes a long time to shake them off. And I remember they gave me the scene. It was, the character was played by Sarah rule. Yeah. So, you know, she was a little overweight at the time, you know, and I remember kind of making this off-color joke about how, oh, I guess I see you gave me the, the part of the fat girl or something like that. Like really like probably not appropriate, but I, I meant it to be self-deprecating, but I wasn't really fat at the time.
3 (1h 7m 37s):
So it was didn't come off as self-deprecating it was another one of those instances where it's just like, and the woman just like hated me after that, you know? And Erica was pretty cool. I think she kind of realized that I was just nervous and awkward. And with the other woman, I remember seeing her like outside after, and she crossed the street to like, not talk to me. And I was like, oh my God, I'm such an asshole. Like, why did I say that? I didn't mean it. You know? And so I'm even blushing now I think thinking about it,
1 (1h 8m 10s):
You said what probably a lot of people were thinking when they would get that.
2 (1h 8m 15s):
Honestly, you can rest assured that absolutely every person who was there was just in an internal monologue about their own body issues. I mean, that's, that's the thing that comes up over and over again, when we feel so much shame about something like that, it's like, those people would never remember it. A and if, even if they did, they'd say with the benefit of hindsight, they might say, oh yeah, well, that just brought up for me. You know, my feelings about myself. And
3 (1h 8m 44s):
I mean, you know, I think, yeah, it just, it, so I took classes all over the city. I auditioned a lot, like I said, I did some independent films and then, you know, like I was still auditioning kind of in spurts over time, I think. And then I discovered yoga. And so I started doing Bikram yoga. It's just the hot yoga. I hear you guys talking about cults and cult leaders a lot on here. He's, he's one of those guys. He's a, he's a cult leader, a guru now downfall on by sexual harassment.
3 (1h 9m 26s):
But I started doing the yoga and that was like 2007, I think. And, you know, I had a friend who really kind of pushed me to go do the training and I wasn't really sure, but I decided to go do it. And you know, it kind of, I think, I don't know if you guys have ever done yoga, but it is sort of, you know, it kind of, it gave me something that I had been missing in a way. I think, you know, it is that, that mind body connection, I think I had been very detached from my body for many reasons, you know, abuse and all that.
3 (1h 10m 7s):
Like not physical abuse, but other kinds of abuse. And, and so like, I think that people get detached from their bodies. And so I think I was really connected to it in a way, and I felt good, you know, in a way that I hadn't felt in a long time. And, you know, I think that's the hardest thing. Sometimes when it goes, when you go back to theater, it's like you put so much energy into it and so much time. And I took so many classes and, you know, I enjoyed the classes and, but I just, you know, I really wanted to get on stage and it was just like, I just couldn't get there. And I think like at a certain point, you're just kind of like, what positive am I getting from this thing that I'm giving all this time and energy and love to like, what's the positives that I'm getting out of this.
3 (1h 10m 55s):
And I'm not, I'm not really seeing it anymore. You know, you know, I, I would get calls from people. We loved your audition. It was lovely. Please come audition for us again. So, you know, there, there were positives, but it just could never, it just really came to fruition. And so then I started doing the yoga and I, I felt really connected to it and I felt really good and in a way that I hadn't felt. And so then I started teaching yoga and I did that for like 10 years while I was having babies and raising them. And then like, yeah.
3 (1h 11m 36s):
So then 27 16, I started writing again.
2 (1h 11m 40s):
I did, I did Bikram yoga for like two years and you're just making me re remember that part of what I liked about it. It was kind of like rehearsal. I mean, cause you just go and you do the same, whatever it is, 26 poses. And the set is the same and the smell the same. And it is kind of like, it's very rich of all the nuggets, like really ritualistic.
3 (1h 12m 8s):
It is very ritualistic and you know, I haven't been practicing here in Morocco. Sometimes I, you know, close all the doors to my kitchen and I turn on the oven and put a pot of water on the stove and try to make it super hot. And every time I do it, I feel so amazing after I'm like, I really need to do this more. There is something about, yeah. You know, the meditation of somebody talking at you and yeah. You know what you're supposed to do on some level. So you're, you can kind of tune out, but you're still listening to them and doing what they say. I mean, you know, that's me after years of teaching and practicing it, I w it's just like, I just want to go in a room and have somebody tell me what to do.
3 (1h 12m 54s):
And then I do it. And if, if you can go in the room and somebody tell you, you just do it then, like, I dunno your mind that meditation comes in in a whole other way and nothing else.
2 (1h 13m 5s):
And as a parent, especially of young kids, you really crave not being the one, having to do the telling what to do, but you know, to be the one who gets shepherded by somebody else.
3 (1h 13m 18s):
Yeah. That's a release. Yeah. I mean, it's, there's a lot of positives to it. And, and I I've recently started running actually in the last six months, I've become like a runner and I've never been a runner. Really. I was always a fast Walker, but never a runner.
1 (1h 13m 40s):
And there is a hot, like, I, I, I ran for a while and I still sometimes do. I ran yesterday for like 20 seconds. I was like, that's enough of that. But, but there is. So what it's interesting there, from what hearing you talk like with the yoga and with theater and stuff, there is a high from like an adrenaline high from doing something that you just do that someone tells you to do, or that is prescriptive and you just can, oh, maybe it is like collapsing into a known set formula. Like when you're running, like you just run, like, that's the job when you're in yoga, you're doing the poses.
1 (1h 14m 25s):
That's the job. There is no room for, you know, what it is. Maybe there is actually no room for like a lot of self doubt or like self talking yourself out of something, which I loved about running, which was like, once I got on the treadmill, I was like running. That was my job. So yeah. I just wonder if it had something to do for you of like collapsing into a set structure, you know,
3 (1h 14m 49s):
I mean, you know, the people who, people who like B grim are a very certain kind of people, there's a lot of a type personalities that go into it. They, yeah. They like the structure. They like the heat.
1 (1h 15m 3s):
You dream of a wait, do you dream of acting again? I could see, I, my hope for you is that you start acting again.
3 (1h 15m 10s):
We did. So right before we left Chicago, I did go on an audition for the first time in like 10 years. Yeah. And it went well. And of course it was the same old story. Like, wow, we really liked you. We really liked what you did. You're just not right for this part. And it was just like, you know, like, I mean, so, and then we left. And so, I mean, maybe, you know, I'm here, obviously I'm living in Morocco, so there's not a whole lot of auditioning or theater going on for me right now. I sometimes think about trying to find all the ex-pats. I can just get them in a room and have them do my play would be fun.
3 (1h 15m 55s):
I should absolutely. We'll see. Yeah. You know, the, I guess that's a nice thing about writing is I can do that on my own whenever I want to. Yeah. You know, maybe
1 (1h 16m 12s):
What prompted you to audition in Chicago after so long and, you know,
3 (1h 16m 19s):
I think it was, you know, I think when you're young, like you, you do feel like the opportunities that are gonna come, right? Like you feel like, okay, maybe this isn't the only opportunity. And then you're sort of hustling, hustling, hustling, hustling, hustling. And, but you, there's also that self, self doubt. I think that you're always dealing with, you know, not knowing who you are, not knowing where you fit. You know, I was reading your manifesto today, actually, just to kind of, you know, remind myself what you guys were, what you're doing.
3 (1h 17m 3s):
And it really was like that you're trying to fit into what you think they want for so long. Like, you know, I'm not skinny enough, you know, I'm not pretty enough. I'm not outgoing enough. I'm not funny enough. I'm not, you know, whatever, I'm not this, I'm not that I'm, whatever it is that they're looking for, I'm not it. And I think like you said, what you realize is like, well, the people that really do well know how to go in a room and be themselves, or they, they don't care if you liked them, they don't care if they fit into the role that you think that they're supposed to be.
3 (1h 17m 51s):
And I think I did not have that. Not caring thing. I didn't have any of that. I think I cared too much. I think I wanted it too much. I think. And I, I felt like I got positive feedback from people. Like I felt like I wasn't diluting myself, you know, that, I don't think that I don't think that I stopped. And like I was deluding myself that I was good or any of those things, you know, I felt like I was, I was like, I'm okay. Right. I'm at least at the very least, all right. But I just, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I couldn't be what they wanted. And so I think, you know, kind of having that sort of midlife moment and then writing my play and, and sort of, and getting positive energy from that.
3 (1h 18m 42s):
And, you know, it's the second round, whatever, but it was like better than nothing after 12 years, it was just kind of like, okay, so who am I now? Can I just go in and, and be myself and whatever that is and whether they like it or not, and whether I'm right for this part or that part or whatever, you know, I think I just, you know, I, I feel like it's important in life to not lose your spark. You know, it's important. I think like, it kind of goes back to what I was talking about at the very beginning. I don't want to become bitter. I don't want to have a lot of regret. I really don't have a lot of regret.
3 (1h 19m 23s):
And I feel like, well, why not try, you know, why not me at the end of the day,
2 (1h 19m 31s):
Be a guest blogger on our blog, little writers and write about this very thing. It would be so cool. Seriously, if you're interested in that, let me know.
3 (1h 19m 43s):
Yeah, sure. I'm definitely interested. I was reading over your blog again. The last one that you, I think is the last one that you wrote, I was wrong. Is that the, yeah. And I just appreciated it so much, like what you wrote, like, it, it is, it's just like, you know, but that's, everybody has their experiences and, and everybody, you know, I, and I, but it goes back to like, yeah, I don't, I don't want to have regrets. I don't, I don't want to feel like, and I think for me, what, what, I'm, where I'm at now, which is actually probably one of the more positive places that I've been is that I don't, I'm not really attached to the outcome anymore.
3 (1h 20m 28s):
I'm not really like, I don't, I'm not doing it for, for validation as like in the same way. I mean, I think, I think for me at this point, it's kind of like, well, have I really tried as hard as I could have and in many ways I know, I know for who I was at the time I did. Right. But I think for me now, it's almost like a personal challenge. Like how far can I take it? But not in, like, I need the money or I need your tension, or I need the validation, you know? And, and I think part of that too, is understanding that, you know, we all do need a little validation.
3 (1h 21m 13s):
I, yeah, I think we, especially when you're in a business where you have to communicate with other people and people have to watch you, you need to collaborate. Like you do need on some level of certain amount of validation. And I think for so long, I was like trying to deny like that, that was part of my experience. And it was just like, well, no, that's okay. You know, you don't, you don't have to live for it. You don't have to live your life by it. You don't have to cry, cry about it. But like, I think I just want to push myself to see what I can do.
4 (1h 21m 59s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina
Intro: buzzsaws and clean slates, rage, Where the Wild Things Are
Let Me Run This By You: Money
Interview: We talk to Carole Schweid about Juilliard, Phoebe Brand, John Lehne, Michael Brand, Midnight Cowboy, musical comedy performance, open dance calls, starring in the original cast of A Chorus Line, Bob Fosse, Pat Birch, Martha Graham, Minnie's Boys, Mervyn Nelson, playing Fastrada in the first national tour of Pippin, being a lone wolf in theatre, Lewis J. Stadlen, doing West Side Story at Bucks County Playhouse, Shelly Winters, Mary Hinkson, Nellie Forbush in South Pacific, playing Tzeitel in Fiddler on the Roof, Peppermint Lounge, Nick Dante, Michael Bennett, Marvin Hamlisch, Public Theater, Gerry Schoenfeld, The Shubert, the wish for a job vs. the real experience of working, Theda Bara & The Frontier Rabbi, Agnes de Mille, Play With Your Food, Staged Reading Magic, Albert Hague.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,
2 (16s):
We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense
1 (20s):
If at all we survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? As more space is actually a huge thing.
2 (36s):
Yeah. I have to apologize for the sound of buzz saws. What is going to be going the whole time I'm talking, doing well, you
1 (50s):
Took some trees down, right.
2 (53s):
You know, that's how it started. Yeah. It started with actually, you know, it all was a surprise to me, basically one we've been talking about taking down all the trees in the front of our house. And one day Aaron said, they're coming tomorrow to take down the trees. And I'm like, how much did that cost? Because you know, taking down trees is usually really expensive. And so he says, well, he's going to do everything in the front for whatever. It was $5,000.
1 (1m 22s):
Yeah. She was pretty good for more than one tree. Cause one tree we had removed was $5,000 at my mom's.
2 (1m 28s):
Well, and it's not like they have to extract the whole tree. It's just, you know, just chopping it down. Like it's not, I don't know if it's different when they have to take out the, yeah,
1 (1m 38s):
I think it is when they have to take the stump out the roots and all that.
2 (1m 43s):
So that was fine. Although I did think to myself, Hmm. We have $5,000 to spend and this is what we're spending it on.
1 (1m 54s):
I've been there. Oh, I've been there
2 (1m 56s):
So the morning, but I'm letting it go. And so the morning comes and he tells me to go outside so we can talk about the trees and, and, and I, anyway, we, we designate some trees and they're all in the lower part of the front of our house.
1 (2m 10s):
Yes. You, and by the way, for people that don't know, like you have a lot of land for, for, for, for not being in the super super country, you have a lot of courage. I mean, you got a lot of trees.
2 (2m 21s):
Well, yeah, we have an acre and it's a lot of trees and it's a lot of junk trees. What they call junk trees. Because the idea here is once upon a time, when everybody got their heat from wood, you had to have fast growing trees. So it's these skinny trees. Yeah. Anyway, so I thought we were sort of on the same page about what we were going down. This is where I'm getting with this. And I had a couple of meetings yesterday and I was hearing the sound pretty close, but it wasn't until I looked outside that I saw, they took everything out.
2 (3m 1s):
The, every living thing out in the, in the front, in front of our house, including the only tree I was really attached to was I have a beautiful lilac tree.
1 (3m 14s):
Okay. Oh shit. And everything out.
2 (3m 21s):
What's that? Why they
1 (3m 22s):
Take everything out? Is that the plant? I think,
2 (3m 25s):
I think what happened was for the first couple of days, the boss was here. And then I think yesterday, the boss was like, you guys just go and finish up. And I don't know that anyway, you know what, I'm just choosing it to be, I'm choosing to look at it like, okay, well we're getting to start over and it can be exactly how we want it to be. So yeah,
1 (3m 45s):
That is a great attitude because there's nothing you can do you really do about it? Absolutely. Zero. You can do about threes coming out.
2 (3m 53s):
The only bummer is that it sounds like buzz saws all day at my house and at my neighbor's house, I'm sure they're annoyed with us too. Well,
1 (4m 2s):
What are you going to put? It is. Okay. So, so, okay. The good, that's the sort of wonky news, but what the good news is, what are you going to put in? Like, is there going to be a whole new,
2 (4m 12s):
I think it's just going to GRA, I mean, I think it's just going to be grass, which is fine. I mean, my thing was actually, it does a little bit of a metaphor because when we first moved here, we loved how quiet and private and everything is. And part of why everything feels very private at our house is there's trees and bushes blocking our view of anything. I mean, all we can see is trees and bushes when we're laying on the front, which for a while seemed cozy. And then it started to seem like annoying that we could never see. And actually there's kind of a really beautiful view of the mountains behind us. So our mountains Hills.
1 (4m 51s):
Yeah. But I mean, small mountains, like small
2 (4m 53s):
Mountains. Yeah. So I realized that it does coincide with our psychological spelunking and trying to just be like more open about everything. Like totally. You know what I mean? Like this is just be open to people seeing our house. This is open to seeing out and let's have, and actually my kids were kind of like, oh, but it's just also open and we don't have any privacy. And I'm like, yeah, well you have your room and bathroom. I mean, there's, there's places to go if you don't want people to, to see you, but let's just be open.
1 (5m 31s):
There's like a whole, yeah. It's a great metaphor for being visible. Like I am all about lately. I have found a lot of comfort and refuge in the truth of the matter, even if it's not pretty, even if I don't actually like it. So like getting the facts of the matter and also sharing the, of the matter without a judgment. So I appreciate this, like wanting to be seen and then letting go of what people make of that, whether your house is this way or that way, or the neighbors think this or that, I'm also the, I I'm all about it.
1 (6m 15s):
I'm like, you know, this is, there's something about transparency. That's very comforting for me. It's also scary because people don't like it when they can see, or they can say whatever they want, but the hiding, I think I'm pretty convinced hiding from myself and from others leads to trouble.
2 (6m 37s):
It leads to trouble. And any time you're having to kind of keep track of what you're, you know, being open about and what you're not, and what you've said, you know, it just it's like it's T it's listen. If I only have a certain amount of real estate in my mind, I really don't want to allocate any of it too. Right. Hiding something and trying to remember. Right.
1 (7m 1s):
And it's interesting, the more that we do this podcast, the more I see that, like, you know what I thought gene, I thought when we're dead, this podcast is going to remain. And then our children's children's children. I mean, I don't have kids, but my nieces and nephew and your children's children's children will have a record of this. And, and I'd rather it be a record of the truth, the truth and transparency, then some show about pretending. So I think it's going to be good for them to be able to look back and be like, for me, it's like the, my crazy aunt, like, what was she doing? And what did she think? And, and, oh my God, it's a record of the times too.
1 (7m 43s):
Yeah.
2 (7m 43s):
I think about that kind of a lot. And I think about, of course I say all this and my kids are probably like going to be, have no interests unless the, until they get to a certain age, I mean, I'll put it to you this way. If I could listen to a podcast of my mother in her, you know, in the time that I don't really the time of life, certainly before I was born, but in my life where I still didn't see her as a person until, you know, I'd love to just things like what her voice sounded like then, and that kind of thing. I mean, it's interesting.
1 (8m 16s):
I have nothing of my mom, like we have a very few, it was interesting because we didn't, you know, we, there was not a lot of video of my mother and today's actually the 10th anniversary of her passing.
2 (8m 28s):
Oh, wow. Wow. That's hard.
1 (8m 31s):
It is hard. You know, it is hard. And I'm working through, I started therapy with a new therapist, like a regular LCSW lady. Who's not because my last guy was an Orthodox Jewish man who wanted me to have children. Like it was a whole new, I just got involved in all the Shannon Diego's of like weirdness. I attracted that weirdest and whatever. So this lady is like a legit, you know, therapist. And they only bummer is, and I totally understand she's on zoom, but like, I I'm so sick of like, I would love to be in a room with a therapist, but I get it. She's in, she's an older lady, which is also great. I was so sick of having like 28 year old therapists.
1 (9m 13s):
Yeah,
2 (9m 13s):
Yeah, yeah. For sure.
1 (9m 16s):
I don't even seem right. Unless clients are like, you know, fit seven to 17. So anyway, so, but all this to say about my mom, I was thinking about it and I think what's harder than right. My mom's death right now is that there's I just, you know, and this is something I wanted to bring up with you is just like, I have a lot of rage that's coming up lately about my childhood and we weren't allowed to feel rage. And my mom was the only one allowed to feel rage. And so this rage mixed with perimenopause slash menopause. I mean, like I still get a period, but like, it's, it's a matter of time before that's over.
1 (9m 58s):
So, but the rage, so I guess, right. I get, you know, people like to talk about rage as some or anger as something we need to process and we need to do this and that, but the truth of the matter is since we're being transparent, like rage can be really scary. Like sometimes the rage, I feel, it's not like I'm going to do anything. Why wonky? I hope, but it's more like a, I don't know what to do with it. That is my, and I was talking in therapy about that. Like, I'm not actually sure. Practically when the feelings come up, what to do with rage. And I feel like it speaks to in our culture of like, we're all about now, this sort of like, we talk about this fake positivity and shit like that.
1 (10m 41s):
And also like embracing all your feelings, but there's not really practical things that we learn what to do when you feel like you're going to take your laptop and literally take it and throw it across the room and then go to jail. Like you, you. So I have to like look up things on the internet with literally like what to do with my rage.
2 (11m 1s):
I think that's why that's part of my attraction to reality. Television shows is a, is a performance of rage. That's that I wouldn't do just because I don't think I could tolerate the consequences. I mean, an upwards interpretation is, oh, it's not my value, but it's really just like, I don't think I can manage the content of the consequences. I'm totally at having all these blown up
1 (11m 30s):
And people mad at me and legal consequences. I can't,
2 (11m 35s):
It's something very gratifying about watching people just give in to all of their rage impulses and it's yeah. I, it it's, it may be particularly true for women, but I think it's really just true for everybody that there's very few rage outlets, although I guess actually maybe sports. Well, when it turns, when it turns sideways, then that's also not acceptable.
1 (12m 3s):
Yeah. I mean, and maybe that's why I love all this true crime is like, these people act out their rage, but like lately to be honest, the true crime hasn't been doing it for me. It's interesting. That is interesting. Yeah. It's sort of like, well, I've watched so much of it that like now I'm watching stuff in different languages, true crime. And I'll start again. No, no, just stories. I haven't all been the only stories that I haven't heard really, really are the ones from other countries now. So I'm watching like, like true crime in new, in Delhi.
2 (12m 42s):
Do you need your fix? I actually was listening to some podcasts that I listened to. There's always an ad and it's exactly about this. It's like, we love true crime, but we've heard every story we know about every grisly murder, you know, detail. And it was touting itself as a podcast of, for next time I listened to it. I'll note the name of it so I can share it with you. You know, about this crimes. You haven't heard about
1 (13m 9s):
T the thing is a lot of them now, because I'm becoming more of a kind of sewer. Like a lot of it is just shittily made. So like the, the they're subtitled and dubbed in India, like India. So you've got like the, the they're speaking another language and then they're and if they don't match, so then I'm like, well, who's right. Like, is it the dubbing that's right. Or the subtitles that are right. And, and actually the words matter because I'm a writer. So it was like one anyway, it's poorly done is what I'm saying in my mind. And so it sort of scraped scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's like deli 9 1 1. I swear to God. That's what it, and, and it's, and also it's, it's horrifying because the, you know, the legal systems everywhere fucked, but India has quite a system.
2 (13m 57s):
I think that to the rage, like, tell me more about what comes up for you with rage and where you,
1 (14m 6s):
Yeah. Okay. So some of it is physiological, like where I feel literally like, and I think this is what my doctor's talking about. The menopause symptoms. I literally feel like a gnashing, my teeth. Like, I feel a tenseness in my jaw. Like, that's literally that. And she's like, that could also be your heart medication. So talk to your heart doctor. I mean, we're checking out all the things, but like, but it's tension. That's what it really feels like in my body is like tight tension where I feel earth like that. If I had to put a sound effect to it, it's like, ah, so I, I feel that is the first symptom of my rage. And then I feel like, and, and I say out loud, sometimes I hate my life.
1 (14m 54s):
That's what I say. And that is something I have never allowed myself to say before. Like I, I think unconsciously, I always told myself, like, you just, you have to be grateful and you know, those are the messages we receive, but sometimes life just fucking sucks. And sometimes my life, I just, I just can't stand. And, and in moments, you know, I never loved myself. So it's mostly a physical symptom followed by this is intolerable, what someone is doing. Sometimes my dog or my husband, but even, even if the coworking space, you know, like the lady was talking too loud and I was like, oh my God, this is intolerable.
1 (15m 34s):
She has to shut up. So agitation, that's what it is. And, and then it passes when I, if I, if I can say, oh my gosh, I am so fricking in Rouge right now. Then it passes.
2 (15m 52s):
Yeah. Well, it, it kind of sounds like from, from you and probably for most people, the only real option is to turn it in on yourself, you know, like you're not going to put it elsewhere. So you've, you know, you have, which is, so I guess maybe it's okay if you turn it on yourself, if you're doing, if you're working, if you're doing it with acceptance, which is the thing I'm gathering from you, as opposed to stewing and festering. And
1 (16m 21s):
I mean, it becomes, it's interesting. Yes, it is. So it's like, so red, hot, and so sudden, almost that the only thing I can do is say, okay, this is actually happening. Like, I can't pretend this isn't happening. I, it I'm like physically clenching my fists. And then I, yeah, there is a level of acceptance. I don't get panicked anymore. Now that I, that something is wrong. I just say, oh, this is rage. I name it. I'm like, I feel enraged and white, hot rage, and then it, and then it, and then I say, that's what this is.
1 (17m 3s):
I don't know why. I don't know where it's coming from. Right. In this moment. It's not proportionate to the lady, like literally talking on the phone at my coworking space that she's not shouting. So it's not that. And I don't want to miss that. I'm not like I can't fool myself to think that it's really, that lady's problem. That I feel like throwing my laptop at her head. And then, and then it passes. But, but, but it is, it is more and more. And, and I think a lot of it, not a lot of it, but you know, my doctor really does think that it's, it's hormonal. A lot of it just doesn't help the matter. I mean, it's not like, oh, great. It's hormonal. Everything's fine. But it, it does help to make me feel a little less bonkers.
2 (17m 45s):
Maybe you should have like a, a whole rage. Like what, like a rate. Well, first I was thinking you should have a range outfit. Like, oh, for me, if I, I noticed I pee in the winter anyway, I pick like my meanest boots and my leather jacket. When I'm feeling, you know, maybe say maybe kind of a rage outfit, when did Pierce?
1 (18m 9s):
No, I, I scratched myself in my sleep. Oh no, it's okay. It happens all the time. I do it in my sleep. It's a thing that it's like a little skin tag that I need to get removed. It's
2 (18m 23s):
So you could have a rage outfit and then you could have a rage playlist, And then you might even have like rage props. I'm just trying to think about a way that your ma you, you could write because if, if how you process something is artistically creatively, then maybe you needed a creative outlet that's specifically for, for race.
1 (18m 48s):
Yeah. And you know, the, I, I love that. And now I'm thinking about like, as a kid, we, because we, anger was so off limits to us. I used to violently chew gum. Like I would chew on the gum. That was a way, and my mom did the same thing, even though she also got her rage out, but it was like, you know, when people violently chew on their gum, like that was a way I could get my aggression out. That's so sad that that's like the only way.
2 (19m 16s):
Well, I mean, you find it wherever you can find me. It's like water looking for whatever that expression is, right? Yeah. Huh. Well, I have to get more in touch with my rage because I I'm told that I seem angry a lot.
1 (19m 33s):
You do.
2 (19m 35s):
I, I do get told that, but, but that sucks for me because I feel like I'm not expressing my anger and I'm, but I'm not. So I'm not, and I'm being seen as angry at certain times. So that means I didn't even get the benefit of like letting out the anger that somebody is.
1 (19m 56s):
Right. You didn't even get to act out the anger. It's like, yeah. So for me, miles tells me that all the time, like, he's like, you seem really in couples therapy. Also, I have to admit yesterday was a big day. We had couples therapy on zoom. Then I had individual therapy. And in between I had all kinds of like, just stuff happening. So, but yeah, I'm told I a miles is like, you seem so angry and he's not wrong. And, and we take it out on the people that we live in a two by four apartment with. So I also feel like this office space is helping with that, but yeah, I dunno, I'm going to have to keep exploring my, my rage and that's what it is.
1 (20m 37s):
And also it is like, I am the character in where the wild things are that kid, that is what I feel like. And it feels it's like the perfect cause he wants to gnash his teeth and, and he does, and a thrash, thrash, thrashing mash, or the words
2 (21m 6s):
Let me run this by you that I wanted to do when we're going to talk to Molly that we didn't get to do. And it was based on made, you know, and just about money and, and wondering like what your relationship is right now with money. And also, but when were you at your lowest with money? What do you remember as being your lowest moment? Sure, sure. With money with money.
1 (21m 40s):
Okay. I have moments of what first comes to mind was when right. I was at DePaul. So it's an apropos in college and there was obviously a sense. I had a sense of lack, always, even though based on whatever, but it was phone. Somehow my accounts were always negative, right? Like, and I would call the number, the banking number, incessantly to check, and it would always be negative. So I have this panic thoughts about that. Like being a time of like, and that's not the only time that happened like that.
1 (22m 23s):
Where, what is the feeling? The feeling was that, and this was in college where it started to happen, where I felt like there's never enough. No, one's going to help me. I'm irresponsible with money. Was the message I told myself and I probably was, I was in college, but I can't handle money. And literally that, that panic was also, I mean, it was true. I had no money, but my parents would have backed me, probably helped me out, but I was too scared to ask for help. So that's like, that's when, when you asked that question, that's where I go.
1 (23m 4s):
But, but that's also a college kind of me. So like in terms of an adult, me, that's a really great, great question. My lowest, I don't know. What about you?
2 (23m 22s):
Well, I've got a lot of Loma Loehmann's moments with money when I was in high school. The thing was, I lost my wallet all the time.
1 (23m 35s):
Oh, I remember this. I remember you talking about,
2 (23m 38s):
Yeah, that'd be still lose stuff all the time. That actually started at a young age with, you know, my mom would, she, my mom was really into jewelry and she would buy me destroyed. And there's nothing wrong with the fact that she brought me jewelry, but I lost it. You know, she buy me nice gold jewelry
1 (23m 59s):
Because she likes nice things. That's right. Yeah.
2 (24m 4s):
In college it was pretty bad. And the first time it was pretty bad. I had to move back in with my mom because I couldn't afford rent. And then the second time I just, I re I really, if I had more bravery, I probably would have signed up to be one of those girls in the back of the Chicago reader. Like, I, I, I just figured what ha how literally, how else? Because I had a job, but I only worked however much I could work given the fact that we were in rehearsals and like busy all day, so I never could make enough money. And then I just, I think I always have had a dysfunctional relationship with money.
1 (24m 51s):
Wait a minute, but I have to interrupt. Why, why didn't our parents fucking help us? Okay. Look, I know I sound like a spoiled asshole brat, but like, when I think of the anxiety that we were going through and I know your mom did, so I'm not going to talk shit about your mom or anything, but I'm just saying like, why did we feel so alone in this when we were so young, this is not right.
2 (25m 11s):
Yeah. Well, my mom did help me out as much as she possibly could, but I think part of it too, my dad certainly didn't think it was that. I mean, when my mom was 18 and my dad was 19, they bought a house and had a baby. So I think part of it is, has been like, what's the matter with you? Cause I didn't go to college, you know, that's the other thing. So, so then when I, then I had a period for like 10 years where I always had three jobs, me two, what
1 (25m 46s):
Did you have enough then? I mean like, could you make rapid enough?
2 (25m 49s):
I had enough then yeah, I had enough then. But then when Aaron decided he wants to go to medical school, it was really on me to, to bring in the income. I mean, his parents always gave him money. They helped, it was a lot more. I mean, and actually it's why he became a therapist because I thought, well, we're going to be living with no income because he's going to be a student. Right. So I better giddy up and get a job. So the whole time I was in social work school, I was bartending. I remember that. And then I went quickly into private practice so that I could make money.
2 (26m 29s):
And it turned out to be, it turned out to backfire on me. Tell
1 (26m 35s):
Me, tell me, tell me more.
2 (26m 37s):
It backfired in two ways. Number one, I was, I shouldn't have been operating a private practice without my LCSW. I had my MSW and I was working at the time in a psych hospital. And all of the psychiatrist said, you should start your private practice. You should start your private practice. And I remember saying at the beginning, I don't know if I'm allowed to oh yes, yes. You definitely can. I know tons of MSWs into plenty of people and it's true. I don't know if it's still true now in New York, but at that time you could walk around and see plenty of nameplates for offices where somebody in private practice and that just have an MSW.
2 (27m 18s):
They just had to have a supervisor
1 (27m 19s):
Or something.
2 (27m 22s):
I don't know. Okay. I dunno. Right. So that ended up coming to haunt me when a disgruntled patient. And they're all disgruntled in some way, a family who actually had been swindled by a con artist, like they, they were a blue blood, rich ass family and they got swindled by a con artist. And so they were talking about rage. They had a lot of rage about that. When this guy who was paying for his daughter's treatment, didn't think it was going where, you know, he wanted it to right.
2 (28m 4s):
He started pushing back about the fee and then he was submitting to his insurance company and they were not reimbursing because I didn't have the LCSW. So then he reported me to the New York state office of professional discipline or
1 (28m 21s):
Whatever yeah.
2 (28m 21s):
Regulation or whatever. Yeah. And I ha I had to go through a whole thing. I had to have a lawyer and I had to go, yeah, yeah. It was a nightmare. It was a complete and total nightmare. And I, and I said nothing, but like, yeah, I did that. I did do that. And I did it because I needed to make the money. I mean, in some ways I don't regret it because I did it worked for the time that it worked. And then by the time it stopped working, I was ready to leave private practice anyway. Oh my God. Yeah. But then it also backfired because we were taking in this money, which we desperately needed living in New York city with two kids.
2 (29m 3s):
And, and we were, we were spending it all and not hold withholding any for taxes. So then that started, that started, that started almost 10 year saga of just, I mean, I, it's embarrassing to even say how much money we've paid in just in fees, compounded fees. Nope. I'm sure. In the last 10 years we've given the government a million dollars.
1 (29m 29s):
That sounds, that sounds about right. And you know, I think the thing with money too, is the amount of forgiveness I've need to muster up for the financial decisions that I have made. So one of them that I'm super embarrassed about is that, and I, and I hear you when it's like, yeah, I, it, it's embarrassing. I, I, when I did my solo show, I inherited the year that my mom died. My great aunt also died, who I very barely knew. And I inherited like, like a lot of money. Well, to me, a lot, like 50 grand from her, and I spent 15,000 on a publicist for my solo show that did nothing.
1 (30m 14s):
So I was swindled. Oh,
2 (30m 17s):
I'm so sorry to hear that. That really did nothing.
1 (30m 22s):
I could have done it all on my own. I could have done it all on my own, on drugs, in a coma. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like, come on. So I have done made some questionable decisions. I did the best we did the best we could with, with the information that we all had at the time. I would never make that decision. I wouldn't, I will never make that mistake again. So yeah. Money is very, very, obviously this is so like kind of obvious to say, but it is, it is. So it is a way in which we really, really use it to either prize or shame ourselves. Right. And, and, and w I do it either way, like I do it.
1 (31m 2s):
Oh, I'm so fancy. I inherited this dough. And then I also do it. It's that thing that they talk about in program, which is like, you're the worm, but you're the best worm for the festival, special worms. And like, you're not a worker among workers. I'm just like the best idiot out there. It's like,
2 (31m 18s):
Dude. Yeah. And you're making me realize that money might be the only very quantifiable way of understanding your psychology list. The money is like, understanding your psychology through math. It's going okay. If you're a person like me who gets offered a credit card at age 20 totally signs up and, and immediately maxes it out at whatever, to get 27% interest rate. So whatever little thousand dollars of clothes I got, I probably paid $10 for it. And for the longest time. So, so that's me being afraid of the truth of my financial situation, being unwilling to sacrifice, having, you know, whatever, cute clothes being about the immediate gratification of it all and not thinking longterm.
2 (32m 15s):
Yeah.
1 (32m 16s):
Okay. Well, not asking for help either. Like, like, I don't know who I'd asked, but someone had to know more than me. I didn't ask my parents. They didn't really know what was happening at, or that just was their generation of like, not teaching us about money. It was sort of like, good luck. Get it together. We got it together. You get it together. Okay. Fine. But like unwillingness and fear to ask, to be taught something about money. Like, I didn't know, Jack shit about credit or interest Jack shit.
2 (32m 46s):
Yeah. And I recently realized that I'm basically redoing that with my kids, because we supposedly have this allowance. Only one of my kids ever remembers to ask for it because you know, only one of my kids is very, you know, very interested in money, but like, in a way I can understand why the others don't because it's like, well, anytime they want something, I pay for it. I never say sometimes I'll say recently, I've gotten better about saying, if we're going to go back to school shopping I'll especially if the oldest one, I'll say, this is your budget. If you, if you spend it all on one pair of sneakers, then I hope you're okay with your sweat pants that don't fit and wear them everyday for the rest of the school year.
2 (33m 31s):
Right. But it's, we've, we've just been extremely inconsistent in tying, like, for example, chores to your allowance,
1 (33m 42s):
It's fucking miserable and hard. And I have trouble doing that for myself. I wouldn't be able to do that for my children. If I had children, I can't not give the dog people food. What are you talking about? How am I going to bring it? Doesn't shock me. We didn't learn the skills and I'm not blaming. I mean, I'm blaming, of course my parents, but I'm also just saying, it's just the facts. If we're going to be that in the truth, like, I didn't learn, I didn't educate myself and nobody educated me. So I'm really learning through trial and error. Mostly error, how to be okay with money. And it is you're right. Like finances, romance, and finance teach us the most about our psychology.
2 (34m 24s):
Yeah. Yeah. Romance finance. I love that.
1 (34m 28s):
I think that my boss at Lutheran social services to say all the time, finance and romance, romance, and finance, that's what all these addictions are about is that's how you see them. I'm like, she's right. I mean, she was, I liked her. She was bonkers, but I liked her. She said some good. She, she also is famous for saying, and she didn't say it, but she would always quote, the, no one gets out of here alive. You know, none of us getting out of here life, we might as well start
2 (34m 54s):
2 (35m 34s):
And where did you go to theater school. Okay. First of all,
3 (35m 38s):
Let me just take my coffee, my extra coffee off of the stove and put it on my table. Cause it's gonna burn because we don't want that.
4 (35m 51s):
Okay. You're I am looking for a cop. If you have one, you know, this is ridiculous.
3 (36m 2s):
Hi there. Hi. This is a riot that you talk about surviving theater school. I think it's great. Okay. So this is working, right? You can hear me. Yeah, no, totally. A hundred percent. So this is my, I started college at Boston university. I was an acting major, which I loved. I really did, but I, what I loved more than anything was I loved the history of the theater. We had a great professor who told the tales of the gladiators and the, you know, the gladiators on the island and the fighting, and then the island, the survivors, and then the island would slowly sink into the water.
3 (36m 45s):
What is this? What did I miss? It was the early history of the theater. It was starting on the church steps. It was, you know, the second, whatever all of that history was, I found it really interesting. I also loved the station shop crew stuff. I liked learning about lighting. I was terrible at it. I, you know, I would fall off ladder, but I, I, I enjoyed the backstage stuff as much as I enjoy. I just, I liked it. I, we did the rose tattoo and my, and my first job was to take care of the goat. I was on the prop crew.
3 (37m 28s):
I took care of the goat. Was it a stuffed goat? No, it was a real goat. Wow. What can I tell you? The rose tattoo. There's a goat in the play. I didn't realize you could have livestock and colleges, college, whatever it was. I look like I have jaundice with is that something's wrong with the light jump I sent you stop your, where is the microphone part of your, do you want me to hold it up better? Because when you move, it hits your shirt and it makes like a scratching, right? That's right. I'll do it this way. I won't move around. When you look tan, you look, you don't like jaundice at all. Okay. Well then that's all right. Good. Thanks. Were the goat handlers.
3 (38m 8s):
Good to talk to you. I mean, that was, and I didn't mind, I didn't mind being an usher. All of those things, you know, I remember somebody sitting us down and saying, you're you are the first person. The audience we'll meet tonight as an usher. I took all of the stuff I did, but the acting business was very confusing to me. I didn't quite know. I had done a lot of theater and dancing and been in the shows and stuff, but I really, I was a little more of a dancer than an actor. I'd taken class in the city. I'd followed some cute guy from summer camp to his acting class. But half the time, I honestly didn't understand a word.
3 (38m 48s):
Anybody said, I just, nobody does. I really didn't get it so much at the time I loved it, but I didn't always get it. And for some reason, and I have no idea where this, why this happened. I had a boyfriend in summer stock whose mother worked at Barnard and her best friend was a woman named Martha Hill. Martha Hill ran the dance department at a school called Julliard. Nope. I had no idea. Cool. Just a little, nothing school. This is back in the day. It's a long time ago. It was just a plain old school. It wasn't like a school, you know, where you bow down. And I really was a very good dancer and always loved dancing.
3 (39m 33s):
You know, I've been dancing since I'm like a kid, a little five or six or whatever. So I was a little disenchanted with my successes at Boston U even though I had friends, I was having a great time. I mean, Boston in the late sixties was amazingly fun, but I felt like I wasn't getting it. I mean, it wasn't a school that was cutting people. Thank God, because that would have been torture. I don't know how anybody survives that, but I audition for this dance department in this school called Juilliard and got in and then told my parents that I was going to change colleges. I remember making up a dance in the basement of my dorm in Boston.
3 (40m 17s):
Cause you had a sort of take class and then you had to show something that you should have made up. And somebody else from college was leaving school to come to New York to be a singer. So we decided we were going to be roommates. And then we had a summer stock. Somebody at BU started some summer theaters. So I had a job or two, I think I had some friends from there. So I ended up moving, changing colleges and going to Juilliard. And I spent three years there. I was a modern dancer major. So we had the Limone company, including Jose Lamone wow teachers and the Graham company.
3 (40m 59s):
I mean, Martha, Martha Graham did not teach, but her company did as a winter and Helen, I was Helen McGee. One of the, they were maniacs. I mean, they're, they're like gods and goddesses and their whole life is about dance. And I was one of those demonstrators for her eight o'clock beginning class, my third year of school. I mean, I, it was all about technique. We had amazing ballet teachers. We had Fiorella Keane who, I mean, Anthony tutor taught class there and he was Anthony. I mean, so I got a out of being at that school that I have never lost. I mean, I can, I'm making up the answers for high school kids now really.
3 (41m 42s):
I'm just finishing up a production of grease, which is really kind of boring, but whatever I liked Greece, tell me more. Yeah. It's okay. If you hear it enough, you really get sick of it. Well, that's true. Yeah. I mean high school kids doing high school kids is like, Jesus, God, you just want to slit your throat. The moodiness when it comes to the girls. I mean, I love them. I really love them. I love the guys because puppies, they fall all over each other and they're fabulous, but that's a lie anyway. So I did something that I don't know why I did it and how it worked out. That way I left. I had a very best friend in college that was, you know, and I came to New York and made, made and shared an apartment with this slightly crazy woman.
3 (42m 32s):
And a year later I got myself a studio apartment on west end avenue and 71st street. And my mom co-signed the lease. And I spent three years dancing, honestly dancing almost every day. I wanted to take sights singing, but they wouldn't let me because I was in the dance department. And I didn't know, you could advocate for that. Sure. I didn't know. You could take classes at Columbia. I mean, who had time anyway, but was it a three-year program? It was a four year program, but I had taken a music class at BU that was like music appreciation one. Yeah. And for whatever reason, they gave me credit for that.
3 (43m 14s):
So I had a full year credit. Yep. Three years of Juilliard where I really worked my tail off. What's weird about it is that I am, you know, just a plain old Jewish girl from New Jersey, you know, a middle-class Jewish girlfriend. And to, to think that I could have a profession where people don't talk and don't eat, which is what the answers do is a riot to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's an absolute riot because you know, I mean, that should be basically the manual for dancers. Don't talk, don't eat, but I always knew that I was heading to Broadway. I really have always wanted to do that.
3 (43m 55s):
And I, and, and w was not really ever in question that I would, I somehow assumed if I worked hard and figured it out enough, I would find my way to working on Broadway. And I, and I made the right choice in the sense of switching colleges. Because in the seventies, if you look at your list of Broadway shows, all the directors were choreographers. They were all dancers, all of them Fauci, Michael Bennett champion, all of them. So I started working when I got out of school, you know, it was, and I had already done a couple of summers of summer stock and I did a summer Bushkill pencil, you know, these ridiculous, stupid theaters all over, but it was a blast.
3 (44m 36s):
It was fun. Where, what was your first job out of school? I was still, I was in school and it was the Mount Suttington Playhouse, which was like a tin shell in Connecticut. And I think it was still in college. Cause two guys from school had opened this theater at the skiing place, but it wasn't skiing. Then it was a sh it was like a tin shell. So couldn't really do a show when it was raining very well. And I believe it was stopped the world. I want to get off and I can still remember the Alto harmony to some of the songs. So you okay. Wait, so you don't consider, you didn't consider yourself a, an actor or did you?
3 (45m 20s):
Well, I did, but I think what happened was I had to audition for something. It'd be you like, they had grad programs and it wasn't that I was unsuccessful there, but somebody came and I didn't get cast. I didn't get hired. And I didn't understand, you know, like they give you all these acting exercises. We do sense memory. Well, I didn't know they were exercises. I didn't, they were they're like plea aids. Right. They're like learning things. I took this all very seriously. I would stand in a room and try to feel it was like that song from chorus line, you know, try to feel the emotion, feel the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
3 (46m 5s):
I did all of that. I didn't really understand the simple, what am I want here? And what's in my way of trying to get it. Yeah. It took me so long to find teachers that I really could understand and make me a better actor. So when did you find them? When did you start to find them? Oh, that's interesting. Well, I found a couple of good teachers in New York. I mean, honestly there was a woman named Mary Tarsa who had been in the group theater and an older lady. I mean, it's a long time ago anyway, you know, but I remember sitting in her class and she would talk about using imagery and th and I started to sort of understand a little bit, which is amazing to me because after I moved to Westport and I met, do you know the name Phoebe brand?
3 (46m 58s):
Yeah. Phoebe brand was in our theater workshop. Oh, taught a class. She was already up in her eighties and she taught a class, a Shakespeare class on Sunday mornings. And all of a sudden these things that I didn't understand from decades before. Hmm. It sort of pulled it all together. But for me, I went, I was in California after I got married and moved to LA for a couple of years, found a teacher named John LAN and Lee H N E and two years in his class. I started to really understand how to do it. And then when I came back to New York, he sent me to Michael Howard and Michael Howard, Michael Howard was a great teacher for me.
3 (47m 44s):
He's still a great, I don't know if he's still around if he's teaching or not, but he was a wonderful teacher. And I started to understand how to do it. Was Len the, did he teach the method or what was yes, he was, he was an actor studio teacher. And I started to understand about being present on the stage and being able to deal with people. All of it, it just changed dramatically. I mean, I started to understand what this was about and seeing other good actors and chipping away at it and finding people to rehearse with. And
1 (48m 22s):
You, you, from what I know, and what I'm gathering is that once you graduated Juilliard, you were cast in New York.
3 (48m 30s):
Well, you know, I did get my very, my V I I've. I mean, I, I remember going to see midnight cowboy, which was about the same time as I got out of college. And I remember going into a terrible panic of, oh my God. I mean, really scared about all of it. And I, I went, I joined a class that a friend of mine, somebody told me about this class, you know, I always follow somebody to a class. I'm always, I have good friends. And I, somebody says, oh, I love this guy come to class and I'd show up.
3 (49m 12s):
And this was a musical comedy singing class, kind of where there were writers in the class and actors in the class. And the writers in the class would work on a musical that they didn't have permission for. It wasn't like they were, we were doing this for money or for, for future. So my friend who I became friends with wrote her musical version of barefoot in the park and which has never been done, but I remember I was in it and this guy was in it. And we, it was the kind of a class where it was a very warm, funny group, funny group of wacko theater people. And I would go to open calls and I'd usually go to open dance calls because that was a door for me.
3 (49m 59s):
And also I used to have to sneak out of Jew, not sneak necessarily, but essentially sneak out to take my singing lessons. And I took singing lessons every, you know, every week for years, for three years, I would, you know, and I, and I was not really, I don't think a very good singer, but I became a good singer. I would sneak out of school and go to an acting class. I don't even know when I started that, but I know that I would find the time to do it and then talk about acting and find a teacher so that when I would audition for a musical and I would get through the dancing. Usually if I got through the first cut, I would make it to the end. I wouldn't always get the job, but if I made it through that first horrible, random cut, you know, where there's 200 people in your dancing across the stage and it's yes, no, yes, no.
3 (50m 47s):
Is it really?
1 (50m 48s):
Because I'm not a dancer. So I never had this. I, when my agents are like, oh, there's an open dance call. I'm like, ah, that's you sent the wrong person, the email. So it's really like that, like in, in chorus line where they say, you know,
3 (51m 1s):
Oh yeah. It's like all that jazz. It's really like that.
2 (51m 6s):
Wait, I have a question. I want to hear the re the rest of that. But I, I just, I've never asked anybody. What's the biggest difference between the people who got cut immediately. I mean, was it training or were there people that, in other words, were there people who were just walking in off the street with no training trying to audition? Yeah,
1 (51m 29s):
No, truly an open call.
3 (51m 31s):
No. And sometimes these were equity calls. Cause I, I, I did get my equity card on a summer. That one summer I worked for a non-union, you know, we were in either Bushkill Pennsylvania or Southern Eaton Connecticut, or I did a couple of those summers. And then the next summer, the choreographer from that show had an equity job. And he hired like three of us from our non-unions summer stock, because we were good enough. And
1 (52m 4s):
So when you went to these open calls, everyone, there was a bad-ass dancer. No one, there was like,
3 (52m 10s):
That's not true. That's not true. There were all different levels of dancers, but it was also a look await, you know, it was always, I was always like seven pounds overweight. It was like, the torture is thing of weight does enough to put anybody over the edge
1 (52m 26s):
That they literally
3 (52m 27s):
Weigh you, Carol. Oh God. No. Oh, but it's so look, and I will tell you there's one. There was one time when I remember auditioning for above Fossey show and there were a lot of people on the stage and we were whatever we were doing. And then at 1.3 Fossey dancers, it was their turn. And these three gals, okay. Their hair was perfect. Their makeup was fabulous. They had a little necklace, they had a black leotards, you know, cut up high, but not out of control. Good tights, no, no runs, nice shoes, nails done.
3 (53m 7s):
And they were fantastic. They were clean. They were technically, and we all sort of went, oh fuck.
1 (53m 16s):
Right.
3 (53m 18s):
Right. And I have friends who became Fossey dancers. I mean, I worked for Bob, but I have friends who did a lot of shows him. And they had that same experience where they saw other people, the way it should be. And then they would go back a month later and get the job because they knew what it took. It was all about knowing what it takes. But the thing about having studied acting and having slowly studied singing is that in the world of musical theater, I was ahead of the game because there's not that much time. So you have to be willing to spend all of your time.
3 (54m 0s):
Right.
1 (54m 1s):
There are some people I'm assuming Carol, that could dance wonderfully, but couldn't do the singing and the acting part. And that's where you were like, that's the triple threat newness of it all is like, you could do
3 (54m 12s):
Well, I could do them better than a lot of people. And I certainly could sing well, and I had, I could sing a short song and I knew that you sing a short song. I knew that you'd probably do an uptempo, you know? And also I tend to be a little angry when I go into an audition. It's like, why do I fuck? Do I have to audition? I better, duh. So I needed to find things that allowed me to be a little angry so I could be myself. And I could also be a little funny if I could figure out how to do that. So all of these things worked in my favor. And then of course, like everybody else in her, a lot of people, pat Birch, who was a choreographer, she had like a gazillion shows running, including Greece on Broadway. And now over here, I don't know if she did grease, but she did over here.
3 (54m 55s):
She did. She was very prolific choreographer. She had been a Martha Graham dancer and she had taught a couple of classes at Julliard. And when it came to my auditioning for her, she needed girls who could dance like boys. She didn't need tall leggy, chorus girls. We were doing the show she was working on, was a show called Minnie's boys. And it was a show about the Marx brothers and the last number of the show. We were all the whole chorus was dressed up like different Marx brothers. And she needed girls who could be low to the ground, who can, you could turn who and I was the right person.
3 (55m 36s):
And I remember being in that class, that wonderful musical theater class with a teacher named Mervin Nelson, who was just a great older guy who kind of worked in the business. I remember I had to go to my callback. I went to my class and the callback was at night. And I remember him walking me to the door, putting his arm around me and saying, go get the job. And if you don't get this one, we'll get you. The next one
1 (56m 4s):
That makes me want to
3 (56m 4s):
Cry. Well, it made me feel like part of the family, cause we all want to be part of that theater family. And so I tend to do that when I'm with an actor, who's going to go get a job or go get, you know, you want to feel like it's possible. Yeah. You feel like you can, you deserve it.
1 (56m 29s):
You said, you mentioned briefly that you worked for Bob
3 (56m 32s):
Fossey. I did.
1 (56m 35s):
Oh my gosh. Did you turn into one of those ladies that looked like a bossy dancer too? Like, did you then show up to those auditions? Like, oh
3 (56m 43s):
No, I don't think I, I couldn't, I didn't, I could not get into a chorus of Bob Fossey, but I did get to play for strata in Pippin in the, in the, in the first national tour. And he, Bob was the, he was the director and I, I knew I was the right person for that job. It was also a funny, kind of lovely circumstances that I was in some off-Broadway an off-Broadway show that had started as an awful off, off of a, that, that Bubba, that moved to an off-Broadway theater. I got some excellent reviews. And I think the day the review came out was the day I had my audition for Bob Fossey.
3 (57m 24s):
So I, and I played it. I had talked to people who knew him. I talked to, you know, I, I knew that I, I don't know, I just, I, I had done some work and I just, I don't know the right person at the right time, somebody, he needed it. That part required a good dancer. Who could, I don't know how I got the part. I just,
1 (57m 57s):
I'm kind of getting the impression that we're talking about being a strong dancer.
3 (58m 0s):
Well, let's strong dancer. And also being able to, being able to talk and sing was really the key. I'm not sure that I certainly, as a young person, I, I didn't do nearly as much comedy as I did when I got a little older, but, and also there were a lot of divisions. You sort of either did musicals or you did straight plays and it was hard to get into an audition even for a straight play. And the truth is I think that a lot of us who thought we were better than we were as you get better, you see when you really, wasn't a very strong actor.
1 (58m 43s):
Right. But there's something about that. What I'm noticing and what you're talking about is like, there's something about the confidence that you had by maybe thinking that you might've been a little better than you were that actually behooves young actors and performers that, you know, cause when Gina and I talked to these people were like, oh my God, they have a healthy ego, which actually helps them to not give up as where I was like, I'm terrible. I'm giving up at the first hour.
3 (59m 9s):
Exactly. Right. Right. And, and it, and it goes back and forth. It's like a CSO one day, you feel like, oh yeah, I'm good at this. I can walk it. I get, I'm like, I'm okay with this. And the next day you just to hide under the bed, I think that's sort of the way it goes. I didn't know that people who worked on Broadway even then all had coaches and teachers and support systems and you know, being kind of a little more of a lone Wolf, which I was, and still fight against in a way I come against that a lot, for whatever reasons, you know, whatever it doesn't work, what to be a lone Wolf.
3 (59m 54s):
Yeah. Yeah. You can't do this alone. You can't do it without a support system. It's just too hard because when I actually had the best opportunity I had, which was being part of a chorus line, it was harder than I thought to just be normal, come up with a good performance every night, you know, it was up and down and loaded and that you lost your voice and had nobody to talk to because you couldn't talk anyway. And we didn't have the internet yet. You know, there was so many, it was so much pressure and so much, and I hadn't really figured out how to create that support system up for myself.
3 (1h 0m 42s):
And it was harder, harder than it needed to be. Did you ultimately find it with the cast? No. Oh, not really where they mean, oh, none of the cast was fine. It wasn't that anybody was mean it's that I didn't take care of myself and I didn't know how I was supposed to take care of my shirt. How old were you when you were cast in a chorus line? 27? Maybe I was, I was young and, but I wasn't that young. I just, but it wasn't that C w it was a strange situation to, I was, I had already had one Broadway show, so I had done, and then I had gone out of town to bucks county Playhouse.
3 (1h 1m 25s):
And did west side story Romeo was your first Broadway show. I'm sorry. It was called Minnie's boys. Oh, that was it. That was my, I did. And it was a show about the Marx brothers. Right. And I don't know if you know who Louis. We would probably do Louis Stadol and Louis J Staglin who works with, he works with Nathan Lane a lot. Oh yeah. Yeah. He's like second bun and he's incredibly talented. He played Groucho. Okay. We were all 25 years old. We were kids. We were right out of college. And the weirdest part of all was that the mother was played by Shelley winters. And this was a musical. What a weird you've really. Okay. So then you went onto chorus line.
3 (1h 2m 6s):
Well then, well then in between that, this is like, you know, then, then I went out of town to bucks county. I love being in bucks county for a year. We did west side story. We did Romeo and Juliet during the week. We do them together, one in the morning, one in the afternoon for high school kids. And then on the weekends, we do one of the, and I was the only person in the cast who liked dancing at 10 o'clock in the morning. You know, I didn't mind doing west side at 10 in the morning. I'd been up at eight, being a demonstrator for Mary Hinkson, teaching people how to do a contraction. So I didn't care. I love working in the daytime. That's what I play with your food is such a nice success. My lunchtime theaters here, I get tired at night.
3 (1h 2m 47s):
I don't know.
2 (1h 2m 49s):
Most people do wait. So was the, was the audition process for chorus line?
3 (1h 2m 56s):
I have a great story. I can tell you what my story is. Okay. So I, I was in, I don't know what I was doing. I had done a lot of off-Broadway work. I had been doing, I had been working a lot. And then of course there were the year where I didn't work. And then I went off to south North Carolina and played Nellie Forbush in south Pacific, in the dinner theater for three months. And I loved that. Actually, I think it was one of those times I had a job and a boyfriend and it was like a relief. It was wonderful to have like a life and then do the show at night. You know, I, I enjoyed that a lot and I didn't, you know, it was a big part and I didn't panic about seeing it.
3 (1h 3m 37s):
And it was just, I learned a lot from doing a part like that. I was doing Fiddler on the roof at a dinner theater in New Jersey, down the street from where my folks lived. And occasionally my mom would stop by her rehearsal and watch the wedding scene. Honest to God. I'm not kidding. She's like, Carol, you ever gonna get married? Are you ever gonna? Okay. So I'm doing Fiddler on the roof, in New Jersey. And there's a guy in the cast, one of the bottle dancers who were dropping off at night on 55th street, because he's working on this little musical about dancers and he would bring in monologues and he'd asked me to read them at rehearsal because he wanted to hear them out loud.
3 (1h 4m 25s):
And there was some stuff about this place to ever hear the peppermint lounge back in the studio. Right. It was a disco thing, but it was also a place where there was something. I remember one the couch girls, girls who would just lie on the couches and the guys, I mean really crazy stuff that did not make it into the show, but some interesting stuff. And I was playing the eldest daughter sidle, and it's a terrific part for me. So I was good. Yeah. And Nick knew I was a dancer. Anyway, this little show called the chorus line was in its workshop. Second workshop. They had already done the I, cause I was not a Michael Bennett dancer. I didn't, you know, I, I, I had auditioned for my goal once for the tour of two for the Seesaw.
3 (1h 5m 10s):
And it was the leading part and I didn't get it. I auditioned, I sang and I read and I read and I sang and I didn't get the part. And I came home and I was like in hysterics for like five days. I just, you know, I, I didn't get the part year and a half later, I'm doing Fiddler on the roof with Nick, Dante in New Jersey. And somebody leaves the second workshop and Nick brings up my name because there's a job all of a sudden to cover, to be in the opening and to cover a couple of parts next, bring up my name. And Michael Bennett says, wait a minute. I know her. I know she's an actress and she's a singer. Can she dance?
3 (1h 5m 52s):
So I showed up the next morning and I danced for 10 minutes and I got the job. I mean, I think, wow. Yeah. That's a great story.
2 (1h 6m 1s):
No. So that means you didn't have to participate in
3 (1h 6m 4s):
Callbacks or nothing. Oh, I started that day. I mean, honestly, it was Fiddler on the roof, you know what, I don't remember whether, how it went. Cause we were already in performance tour or something, you know, I, I it's a long time ago, so I don't really remember, but I know that this particular story is the absolute truth. That's fantastic. That
2 (1h 6m 27s):
Was it a hit right away
3 (1h 6m 29s):
Chorus line. Well, it wasn't, we were in previews. I'm no, we weren't even previous the second workshop, which means it was still being figured out. And when I came to the first rehearsal and sat and watched what was going on, I could not believe what I was seeing because the truth of what was happening on stage and the way it was being built was astounding. It was absolutely astounding because something about it was so bizarre. Oh. And also, also Marvin Hamlisch was the rehearsal pianist on Minnie's boys.
3 (1h 7m 10s):
Wow. So I knew him a little bit, not well, you know, but he was the rehearsal pianist that nobody would listen to a show about the Marx brothers, Marvin would say, wait, this is the Marx brothers. You got to have a naked girl running out of the orchestra pit. You gotta, you gotta, and of course, nobody would listen to him. Wait a minute, just turn this off, stop, stop, turn off. Sorry. So I couldn't get over what I was seeing. And I, I knew from the beginning, of course, I think most of us did that. Something very, very unique was going on and it was always changing. Like Donna McKechnie came in late at the audition, all dressed up in like a fur thing.
3 (1h 7m 56s):
And it was like, I'm sorry, I'm late. I'm sorry. I'm late. And then Zach says, would you put on dance clothes? And she said, no, no, wait a minute. Anyway, you couldn't help. But know sort of, you just kind of put,
2 (1h 8m 8s):
I mean, I remember seeing it when I was a kid and not, not being able to relate as an actor, but now that I think back, it just must've felt so gratifying to be seen for all of the, you know, because like we w the Joe Montana episode, we
3 (1h 8m 28s):
Haven't listened to yet, but I'm looking forward to
2 (1h 8m 30s):
It here today. But he was saying, I love
3 (1h 8m 33s):
Him
2 (1h 8m 34s):
For you. You were saying that when he won the Tony and everybody would say, well, it's like to win the Tony, what's it? Like he said, it's like, you won the lottery, but you been buying tickets for 15 years. You know, that's the part of acting that people now, I think it's a pretty common knowledge that it's really difficult to be an actor, but I don't know how Hmm, how known that was then. And it just, must've been so gratifying for all of those people. I mean, who are living in their real life? The story of that musical. Yeah.
3 (1h 9m 9s):
I think that that's true. And also, I mean, it really did come out of people's experiences. Those stories are so, so to be part of something like that, and down at the public theater, which of course it was a vol place to be, you know, you, you knew that Meryl Streep was walking down the hallway and you knew that. I mean, talk about confidence. I mean, I don't know if you've read her new book, no book about her. No, it's worth the time I listened to it. Actually, I didn't read it. I listened to, it's quite wonderful because you see a very confident person who's working on creating who she is.
1 (1h 9m 47s):
Do you feel, I feel like you have a really strong sense of confidence about yourself too. Where did that come from? Would you agree? First of all, that you have, it sounds like you had some comps, some real chutzpah as a youngster and maybe now as well. Where'd that come from
3 (1h 10m 5s):
Beats me. I have it now because I, I, I, I've had a lot of, a lot of experience. And I, I think that, that, I, I think I know a lot about this, but I don't know that I had it. The trick was to have this kind of confidence when it really matters. Yes. And I think I had it, like if I was in an off-Broadway show, I could say, I don't think that's good enough. Could you restage this blah, blah, blah. Or if I'm in North Carolina, I'm not, I think we need to dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But when it comes down to the real nitty gritty of standing up for yourself, when it really, really matters, boy, that's harder than it looks.
3 (1h 10m 51s):
You know, even things like, I mean, my character, when I eventually took over the role of Miralis, which I under, you know, I was we've covered all these parts. There were nine of us. We sang in the little booth in the wings. We had microphones and little headsets. And the coolest part of all was Jerry Schoenfeld, who was the chairman of the Schubert organization would bring any visiting dignitary who was visiting the city that he was showing around his theaters. He would bring them into our little booth. And then we would watch the show from stage left in our little booth while we're singing, give me the ball, give him the ball. Cause half the dancers on the stage, cause stop singing because they had a solo coming up.
3 (1h 11m 31s):
So, you know, singing in a musical is not easy. You know, there's a lot of pressure and you got to hit high notes and you, you know, you just wake up in the middle of the night going torture, torture, and you have to work through that and finally go, fuck it. You know, fuck it. I don't care what I weigh. Fuck it. I don't care if I, if I can't hit the high note, but it, it takes a long time to get there. You know, I see people who do this all the time. I don't know how they live. I don't know how they sleep at night. There's no wonder people like to hire singers who have graduated from programs where they really understand their voice, know how to protect that, which you don't, you know, you have to learn, you have to learn how to really take.
3 (1h 12m 24s):
That's why, you know, it's wondering about ballet companies now have misuses and we didn't have any of that. You were hanging out there alone. I felt maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I felt. And if I was vulnerable or if I didn't feel well, and I was like, oh, what am I going to do? I can't tell anybody. I can't be, I can't be gone there. I can't be, they'll think less of me. They even think I can't play the part. So it was hard.
2 (1h 12m 54s):
I mean, I've heard you say a lot in this conversation about being alone Wolf, being in a family, having support, not having support. And actually, because I know you, you know, in a different context, I know you through the workshop, the story that you always tell about the workshop is that you were on outside of the building while they were having a Christmas party and you're looking in the window and you described yourself being a little puppy. Like you want it, you want it in. And how I always interpreted that is you just want it to be part of it. You just want it to be part of that group. And yes, friends, like, I'm not sure if that's the thing that has always drawn you to this or, or, or if wanting that and not getting it, like you didn't get it in chorus line.
2 (1h 13m 41s):
If that's been a big impediment in your career, like how do you see yourself in terms of being alone Wolf being supported, being part of a group.
3 (1h 13m 51s):
Interesting. Thank you for asking this. I think about this a lot. I don't like I'm a first of all, astounded that I was able to have a work on Broadway and have that, and then actually got to get married and have a family. I find that incredibly fabulous. That that was something I was able to because I, I, and, and I think as I've gotten older and a little less frightened of whatever life I've discovered that it's not so great to be a lone Wolf. It doesn't really work. It doesn't really work so much for me. Granted, if I want to, I work on a low enough alone because you know, all of us, when we produce theater, we do a lot of work alone.
3 (1h 14m 36s):
Even though we're we're group animals. It doesn't, it didn't work. It didn't work when it comes right down. I mean, I, for whatever the reason I had to do with that way, and I had some really good friends, I mean, God knows we'd sit in coffee shops and talk about acting until Jesus, God, I don't know how much you can talk about this, but that's all we did. And then there were bars downtown. There was the Haymarket and the Charlie's and Joe Allen's and you know, it was always fun to sit around with actors and talk about acting.
3 (1h 15m 17s):
And I loved that, but I somehow wasn't able to incorporate my real life with my work. It took me a longer time to figure that one out. That's all.
2 (1h 15m 27s):
Yeah. That makes sense. It's true. What you say about actors going on ad nauseum about acting and I love it. I still love it. I do too. I mean, I love it too. And I remember being in college and we had like a couple of friends in our close friend group who were not in the theater school. And I mean, they they're like, how are you still talking about this? This is all you talk about. And we're like, well, why, why wouldn't you find this? The most fascinating thing in the world is, is, and I think it's because it's so closely linked to just who you are as a person. So when you're talking about acting, you're also talking about yourself and your understanding of yourself as it changed.
3 (1h 16m 13s):
I think that that's right. And also we love, I love the writers. I have always loved the plays even before I learned anything about how to be a good actor or how to be an honest actor, really using, coming from myself, coming from a truthful place. When I used to go into New York and take Luigi dance classes in high school. Cause I grew up in New Jersey and we were an hour away from the city. I could hop on the bus and come in and take a class. I would stop it. There were bookstores all over times square and I would come in and I would pull out, you know, 31 act plays and I'd sit on the play on the floor and read the short place.
3 (1h 16m 54s):
Cause I, I love to read them. I loved the place and I loved the dancing. That was what I was good at. And it took me a lot longer to, to learn how to take the play. But I always like to reading them, maybe you'll take like the short ones. I don't remember. What did you do? I have no idea what you asked me, but things are better. Now the thing I was gonna ask you next is you mentioned being on a national tour. What is that like? Yeah, well, it was the first national tour of Pippin. We were in Boston for three months. We were in Chicago for five weeks.
3 (1h 17m 35s):
We were in Detroit for what was it like? I loved being at the theater. I loved doing the show. I love doing my part because it was a real dance role. And I, and, and FOSS, he's a good director. He very clear as one point, the character has to talk about her PIP in is her stepson. She's Pippin's wicked stepmother, but she also has another son that she wants to push on Charlemagne to make him the king. And he would just say, you know, sell Louis D you know, he at the symbolist direction, it was so helpful.
3 (1h 18m 18s):
I started to, you know, understand what a director, good direct images, but how was it? It was fun. Sometimes being on the road is a little strange. W what I like the most, believe it or not, there was the five weeks in Detroit. Why, why Detroit? Why we all lived at the same Howard Johnson, there was a pool. It was freezing. So you didn't go out almost ever except to the Saks fifth avenue, which was a block away in the other direction. The theater was in one direction and the other was the other other direction. And for me, that was the most fun somehow how the cast was pulled together.
3 (1h 18m 58s):
We were, I didn't love it when we were in cities, you know, you could find a dance class. You got, I kind of wouldn't know what to do with myself in the daytime. As much being on the road is a little, a little strange for me. It's how long, how long was that Pippin tour is a year. Wow. That's a long time was a year San Francisco. It was a long year. It was a long year. And you know, actually the real truth. If we're going to talk about the real truth here, why not? I had had a year of therapy before, and then I'm out on the road for an entire year. And there's nothing that tells you about your life, like being on the road. You have your cat. Maybe I don't even remember if I had a cat, but that's what you've got.
3 (1h 19m 40s):
Whatever you have with you is what you have. And for some reason, it had a huge effect on me because when I came home, I got a phone call from this fellow that I had met right before I left. And I was awful attitude. I was in an off Broadway show. I was, I was the main character I got, I somehow managed to get some good reviews. I met this guy and he said, you know, hi, how about I give you a call? I said, I'm sorry, I'm going on the road in a week. And I'm working with Bob Fossey and why don't you call me when I get home? Well, when I got home, I was a very different person actually, after a year on the road. And we went out and I think we got engaged three weeks later.
3 (1h 20m 20s):
I mean, I was a very, and that was me that had changed. It was just that it show business was lovely, but I got the message that it was a job, not a family. I got it on some level that I could understand it. And I was able to make up, you know, I mean, all of this is like real stuff. This is exactly what happened to me. I don't know if it happens to other people, but this is what happened to me.
2 (1h 20m 47s):
Is that the person that you married?
3 (1h 20m 50s):
Yeah, we were married for like 20, some odd years. So, and we're still friends.
2 (1h 20m 56s):
And would you say looking back the thing that you were most well or that you were also really in love with? I mean, you w you were really craving to have connection with another person. It sounds like you're really craving to have a reliable connection with another person, because that's, the other thing is theater. So transient, I mean, fast change at all on the tourists, but, you know, everybody tells the same experience. You get an show, you say, I love you so much. We are going to be best friends forever. And then you never ever speak to them again, unless you
3 (1h 21m 31s):
Isn't that awful. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you gather a friend or two and that's always a wonderful, but yeah, exactly.
1 (1h 21m 41s):
It's so intense for such a sh for a period of time. And it, and it's interesting because it sort of recreates this instant close family, and then you're just done. And then I never thought about that in a long time, because I don't do theater really anymore, but then it's over. And then you're alone
2 (1h 22m 1s):
And all your family trauma comes from Shrek. All your family should have kind of ramped up the surface.
3 (1h 22m 6s):
Well, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And even the, you know, with a show like, I, my experience, well, no, I mean, yes, we were a close company, but It was the year. It was the somehow the year, year. And, and I think I was enjoying it, but I wasn't really happy. Yeah. And it's hard to admit that, especially when you're doing something you've been preparing for your entire life,
1 (1h 22m 39s):
I forgot. I feel, I feel like that's a common thing that I noticed with actors as well is when we arrive and are supposed to be doing the thing that's supposed to make us happier than anything in the world, whether it's landing a lead or on a television show, and it doesn't quite work. Like it's not giving you what you thought. There's like a grieving process and the realization that like, oh, wait, I need something else. This enough for me, that's exactly right. Yeah. And our conservatory training a lot of time teaches us that, like, that should be all. We that's just, it, like, that's the goal. And then you realize, wait, what if I want a different goal?
1 (1h 23m 19s):
And I think it's really hard, you know, because without the dedication, you might not have landed on Broadway in a national tour, but it doesn't mean that it's enough. It's so interesting. It's like, you have to pretend that's all you want because you want to make it. And then once you've got the thing that you want, and it's not enough, there's a whole different process that habits think, gosh, you said yes, to going on a date with them, you might not have
3 (1h 23m 46s):
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And we were kind of in the same place cause he went to work for somebody at NBC. And so we were both like totally up to our ears in work. And then all of a sudden we turned around and went, wait a minute here, something's wrong with this is this, this picture. So, and you sort of rely on theater as the place to go for everything you need because we loved it. So I still sometimes read theater books. I read books about Balanchine. If I'm, you know, over the pandemic, I, you know, who reads books about the Dion go-live Russian dance company. But for some reason I found that.
3 (1h 24m 29s):
So did you
1 (1h 24m 30s):
Completely leave the
3 (1h 24m 32s):
Acting and performing? Okay. No, but we did go well, we got, we, we, we actually went to LA for a couple of years, right after like maybe six months after we got married, we just sort of went, you want to get out of here? Yeah. Let's get out of here. So we went to LA just that, that, you know, and found, you know, there's, there's work in LA for theater, but it's like the stepchild, you know, there was a S a sag strike. And I was doing, working the show, working in a million people. Yeah. We had a nice group. You know, the theater is fun. It's not like it's successful, but it's fun in California.
3 (1h 25m 11s):
So a lot of us got agents and stuff from doing that. I got on a little TV show for a couple of weeks and that it was canceled. It was kind of a running joke of, oh, so I worked, I think I sort of also saw that I needed a better acting teacher. And that's when I found John Len. And I went to that class Monday nights. Of course, I think I've spent every Monday night of my life at some theater thing. I wouldn't know what to do if we didn't have the workshop to tell you that truth, I would not know what to do on a Monday night. So I, I found a class that was also helpful and worked on acting again.
3 (1h 25m 51s):
It was a re this has been a lifetime pursuit for me, learning how to be a better actor. I find it absolutely fascinating. I really do. So you feel like you're still, you're still actively engaged in the process of wanting to be a benefactor. Totally. Do you have more big, big goals or dreams? I have no idea. You know, the, the, the, the shift, I mean, I was able to keep working, even having kids. We stayed in the city for a long time and I worked less, but I did work. I did one summer tour of chorus line. I took my son max, who was one I had to prove to myself, I could be an actress and a mother.
3 (1h 26m 35s):
I don't think I got much sleep that summer, but it was it's all. And then, I mean, as they got older and then we moved up to Connecticut and then I was still getting some jobs. I think I did a show called Theda Bara and the frontier rabbi, which was really fun because that Vivian Matalan directed it. And he's a good director. I don't know. You know, I just took jobs when they came along and we worked it out. You know, you got a babysitter who, you didn't even know their last name. It was tricky, but we moved up to Connecticut. And the best thing that I was able to find for myself was I was rereading some of my old books.
3 (1h 27m 17s):
And I found this book by Agnes de Mille called dance to the Piper. And I thought, oh, these are stages where these stories. And I wrote myself and performed a one woman play about Agnes de Mille, which was using my dance and love of dance. And I took three stories. I took the story of her getting to do rodeo and then getting to do Oklahoma and then carousel, and then having a life, you know, resolving. So I took five years out of her life. And I did that for six years. I did it at, oh, wow, that's a long run. Well, I worked at it on the ward at the workshop 20 minutes at a time, did at Fairfield university for the first time with a live piano player and, you know, and, and adding dance because it was a piece I went to theaters all over the east coast, you know, little theaters that hired me for two days or three days went to the national portrait gallery.
3 (1h 28m 16s):
That was a blast. And then I really did it at women's clubs, but it was something to focus on something, to work on, something to make better. It's great to have something, something, it doesn't matter what it is to be engaged in. I think. So that was really helpful to come out of the city and feel more creative. So that
1 (1h 28m 40s):
Tell, tell me about, I'm curious about your, your lunchtime plays. What's going on there.
3 (1h 28m 45s):
I'm getting, yeah. There. Okay. So eventually Agnes, the middle son took the rights back from me. Some other guy talked him into blah, blah, blah. So I, the six it ended, you know, and it took me a while to put down the website and I, I could not let go. I a Royal pain in the neck with him, but I finally just let it go. And then I had joined a committee of cultural arts committee in junior high school, whatever the kids were in. And I was sitting there with my friend Nancy diamond and, and the committee started to get taken over by MBAs who didn't have jobs. So we were sitting in the back row, being bad kids going, we've got to get out of this committee and go do something.
3 (1h 29m 25s):
What can we do? So we thought, what do we like? Well, we like theater and we like food. So we thought, gee, if we started to do a lunchtime theater thing, do you think anybody would come? And we invited our friends to the first one and we found some, one act plays and we did a little, whatever we did for lunch and people liked it. And it became a real thing. So I got to use my love of plays. I searched for wonderful one act plays, and we w w we, and then we started in Westport. Then we added Fairfield. Then we added Stanford. And that ended because they changed the building around then we went to Greenwich. So I'm still doing this 15 years later.
3 (1h 30m 6s):
And I've written a book about stage readings, which is, I think, amazing that Smith and crowds published my book about three years ago, it's called staged reading magic. And it's everything we learned about from that stage readings that play with your food. And it's, it's not that it's so great for professionals, although it's good for young professionals, because it's all about doing what people tell you you can't do, or you shouldn't do, but it's fabulous for people for community theaters and anybody who wants to get a group together and put on something. That's cool because the truth of that, see, it's all. Yes.
3 (1h 30m 46s):
And, and the fact that I'm going to show it to you, hold on. Well, I don't have to show it to you now. I'll, I'll, I'll get you copies of it or something, but it's a nice little small book, you know, and it's, it's Smith and cross is a huge, fabulous publisher. And I sold
2 (1h 31m 4s):
It and I love it. I mean, I'm definitely going to check it out.
3 (1h 31m 7s):
You sold it to where I, well, I mean, I sold it to them and I sold it without an agent. Oh, I did. It's all about everything they tell you, you can't do. Sure. People did give me people to contact. And I w and they all sort of turned me down or they worried whatever one, one or two. And it was a summer thing where I got more and more focused on what I was trying to communicate with this book and how I was trying to say it, that by the end of the summer, and I, and I wrote to Eric Kraus, I was so clear on what I was trying to do, that he bought the book. Wow.
2 (1h 31m 44s):
Oh, that is a very good, an inspirational story because we talk, we do talk a lot about, you just have to make your own stuff and you have to forge your own path. And maybe for some people doing it the way somebody else did it works, but most of the people have to figure it out on their own. Let's make it fresh
3 (1h 32m 5s):
Each time. I think that that's exactly right. And it's really about figuring it out, how there's always another door, you know, you can't. I used to, like, I, sometimes I think I enjoyed getting an audition more than I actually liked getting the job. I feel the exact
1 (1h 32m 24s):
Same way, really?
3 (1h 32m 27s):
How am I going to get into that room? Who am I going to call that? No. Who am I going to run into at an open call? And I went to open calls when I was older, like in my forties, because I wouldn't know the stage manager. I had no problem going to an open call if there was a part that I somehow couldn't, you know, cause I usually have an agent somewhere because I sometimes get jobs, but it's the, it's the negotiating. How am I gonna, I love that part of it. Isn't that? It's the art of the
2 (1h 33m 0s):
Deal.
1 (1h 33m 3s):
Something about the research and forensics and yes. Getting in there and yeah, it's fun. That's what it is. It's
3 (1h 33m 13s):
Fun. It's
2 (1h 33m 15s):
It should be fun. I mean, that's kind of, you know, right. Like it's a play there. I used to sit, one of our teachers used to say, it's called a play for a regional work.
3 (1h 33m 26s):
Well, yeah. That, but that's right. That's right. And, and, and that's part of what the book is about too, because you know, a million people do stage readings, you put up, music stands, you put bottles of water next to the chair, that's it. But if you're doing 10 of them, you can't do that. Right. So the whole purpose, the whole thing about the book is figuring out what each play might mix it up the best way to do each play. And it's all about thinking it through and thinking, what, what table would say suburban living room? How would you put to, to noble people, people who were, you know, status, how would you make them feel like they were going to the gallows?
3 (1h 34m 15s):
Well, you put them on low stools. Right? And also we have wonderful actors up here. So I was able to really tap into, which is why I admire the workshop is because I met so many good actors. You know, Brett summers was hilarious and Fred is Fred Strava was a playwright was hilarious. So we had a lot of that. That amazingly is still going on. I love this. So yeah.
2 (1h 34m 42s):
Well, this has been awesome, Carol Carol at the time.
3 (1h 34m 48s):
Well, thank you for letting me talk about this. You know, it, it,
1 (1h 34m 52s):
I feel like there's another book in your future. I just have to say,
2 (1h 34m 56s):
Can we show
3 (1h 34m 57s):
And what would that book be
5 (1h 34m 58s):
About? I don't know, but there's something about Carol's life in the theater and like what you've learned and
3 (1h 35m 5s):
How
2 (1h 35m 5s):
It could be about this issue of lone Wolf. And, you know, I don't know much has been written about the, the idea of how the actor needs to actively engage with a community.
3 (1h 35m 18s):
Oh, it's everything. That was one of the things about Michael Howard as a teacher. I mean, he would have a Christmas party every year and he would say, you know, some people are working, they'll just come for the party. And some people are cooking the Turkey, you felt like, you know, same way, like Albert Haig, who was a wonderful teacher as a composer. And you might know him because he plays Sher professor share. Roskies the last story I'll tell you on fame, the movie and the TV show, but he was never an actor. He was a composer. And he knew from sitting on the other side of the table, how you could get somebody's attention and get a job.
3 (1h 35m 58s):
Wow. And he taught a class boy, that was the best class I ever taught took because he taught, you had to get a fricking job, how to take what you do and put it in the window, like an expensive dress store. They don't have 20 dresses. They have one, right? It's all about putting it back in your own lap, putting it, what do you have to contribute? What do you contribute? If I cast you, what are you going to bring to this party? Right? Why should we hire you? You have to answer that question. You have to know who wrote the song. You're singing at this audition. You have to know who wrote the play.
3 (1h 36m 38s):
You have to know a key. You sing and you have to, all of this is because you're a response and they teach this now in college. But I found him younger. You would teach us somehow how to take a song and actually ruin it so that all of a sudden somebody has got your you've got somebody's attention. And then they'll say, wait a minute. What are you doing to that song? Could you sing it normal? And then if you're good, you've not only done well, but you've gotten somebody's attention and set yourself aside from the pack. I don't know what I have in the middle.
5 (1h 37m 15s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: Mummies vs. Zombies, cancer doulas
Let Me Run This By You: Gina has projection issues.
Interview: We talk to Joe Mantegna about Morton College, The Goodman School of Drama, Arthur Lessac, starting his career with HAIR, Dr. Charles McGaw, The Shubert Theater, Morton West High School, André De Shields, Jonathan Banks, Carrie Snodgrass, his close relationship with Bella Itkin, Geraldine Page, Eugenie Leontovich, Patrick Henry, playing Judas in Godspell, Organic Theater, the Grease premiere at Kingston Mines theater, Jack Wallace, Medusa Challenger, Stuart Gordon, the sci-fi play Warp!, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Dennis Franz, John Heard, Richard Gilliland, Meshach Taylor, The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit, Esai Morales, Edward James Olmos, Bleacher Bums, Robert Smigel, winning the Tony, Mandy Patinkin, his approach to ensemble acting, breaking news about Criminal Minds!, House of Games, dealing with David Mamet's language, American Buffalo, Sexual Perversity in Chicago, A Life in the Theatre, William H. Macy, going up on his lines on opening night of Glengarry Glen Ross, Lindsay Crause, Nan Cibula-Jenkins, Vincent Gardenia, and why JOE MANTEGNA PREFERS TALKING TO US OVER THE NEW YORK TIMES! Hopefully, next time we'll get into the Jim Clemente of it all, about Southern Italian miners migrating to the American Southwest, and Wait Until Spring Bandini
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina
1 (13s):
Survived it, but we
2 (14s):
Didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We
1 (21s):
Survived theater school and you will
2 (23s):
Too. Are we famous yet? Which is the horrible,
1 (32s):
Where's their costume. What did she wear? Who was she?
2 (35s):
Zombie cheerleader.
1 (36s):
Love it. Love it. Especially since I'm I'm I'm watching glee. I'm I'm for the first time. And there's the, all about the cheerleaders there. Zombie cheerleader. Perfect. Okay.
2 (47s):
So she's walking around and she's holding these pom-poms out and I'm like, what is she doing? And then I realized she was doing a zombie walk. She's
1 (56s):
Smart. Why
2 (57s):
Do some bees hold their arms out in front of her?
1 (60s):
Oh, that's a great, great question. If there's any zombie experts in his zombie historians in our listener pool, please write to us and tell us why that's great. Like I think it started with mummy's.
2 (1m 16s):
Well, Frank. Okay. Okay. That's what I was going to ask next. I was going to say if there are any zombie historians, please tell us what the origin of it was. So mummies
1 (1m 25s):
It's first in the old movies, old, old movies, the mummies walked like that. So I think the zombies are stealing that look from the mommies, so,
2 (1m 35s):
Okay. And you do something around this time of year. It does get, like I forget about, there's a difference between a zombie and a mummy and then,
1 (1m 43s):
And they're slow zombies. There's fat, some bees, I mean, zombies is a whole genre of everything. Oh yeah. Like, like if you, if you read screenwriting stuff, they talk a lot about not, not all books, but a lot of books when they're talking about genre, it's like the, the, to get really specific. You can't just say zombie, it has to be, are they slow or fast on B? So like in what is it like a world war Z. They're fast Sotheby's but like, I believe in the original day of the dead, Romero's their slows on me. So it's a whole thing. And I know, I only know this because I had a friend that was like a zombie nuts, so,
2 (2m 24s):
Okay. So picture you and I are sitting on a park bench in the apocalypse and we're just still our same normal self. Somehow we've avoided getting effected by the apocalypse. And then this zombie just goes, zipping the thing past us. And we say, yeah,
1 (2m 44s):
The past sappy and then a slow one comes with that's a slow zombie.
2 (2m 49s):
Can you tell, I can see already that's going to be a real slow. What about a medium speed zombie? That's what I would probably be. I'd probably ride,
1 (2m 59s):
I think I'd be on the slower end, but, but I, I think with some training we could maybe get to be fast zombies if we wanted, if we wanted to. Yeah. So did you get your self care in? I did I feel, how do I feel? How to say? Yeah. So it's interesting. I, I am in amongst my group of peers and people, a little younger I've become sort of the, my cousin called it the cancer doula. So when the exact term, yeah. And so I had a friend who was diagnosed on Tuesday with breast cancer and I sort of helped her navigate until she could.
1 (3m 43s):
Cause there's this weird period between when you're tested slash diagnosed the first, you know, I mean, there's a lot of weird periods, but the, the weirdest one from my, in my experience as an outsider, look, I've never had the disease in my body myself, but I've known many people who have, including my mom and my husband. And there is this weird period between when you're diagnosed and when your treatment starts. So, and that is like a no man's land where people's minds go crazy. Understandably that's our, what our mind does. So I was sort of there because she had, and she's younger, she's 33 and she's sort of a mentee in a lot of ways.
1 (4m 24s):
She's a writer of mine and I just was there to like field questions. And then when I didn't know them, I said, I have no idea, but you'll find out from the doctor, I have no choice, but to a question. And basically the question is that everybody asks is, am I going to die? So, which is obviously such a layered question because we all know that the answer is yes. I mean, that's part of the deal, when is another thing. And so it's like, I never say, well, we're all gonna die. So like calm down because that's just not helpful. And it's also not helpful to me when I'm in that situation at all.
1 (5m 4s):
So what I say is based on what the doctor said, because people never remember what the doctor says when the doctor calls. And luckily I was there to write it all down. I was there when she got the official confirmation and I immediately just started writing everything. The doctor said, because later you can go back and say, listen, based on what the doctor said out of the words out of her mouth, where this is treatable and curable type of cancer. So we have to go with what the experts said, say science and the expert, this lady is a bad-ass, this is what she has devoted her life to she's seen.
1 (5m 45s):
And so anyway, I, lot of what I did this week was regurgitating and, or like reiterating what the experts said so that this my friend could not lose her mind. Like, that's literally what I, you know, and, and, and it is a, yeah, the brain is a wild creature and it looks like my friend's going to be okay. However, nobody really knows because, you know, and then, and then the question is, will it come back? So like, it never ends, the questions will never end and it's best to stick with the data.
2 (6m 31s):
Kind of related to the thing I wanted to run by you, which is not anything that specific, but just generally about projection and like, I'm always, so it's actually always really amusing to me when I catch myself in a projection, which really you could make the argument that like, everything you do in life is as a projection. Cause that's just sort of how we're built psychically. But no, like I have a friend, a local friend who has a business and it's a business that I happen to drive by every, almost every day. And I noticed like, well, I first I thought during the pandemic, oh, I wonder if this business is going to close and it's sh she stayed there.
2 (7m 14s):
She stayed there. And then one day I drove by and I realized that there was no, it was empty inside. And I thought, okay, I got it. You know? And then I've been like debating, reaching out to her because, you know, it's, it's tricky. Like some people would welcome that and some people would feel ashamed or whatever. And I, and every day I drove by this thing and I feel bad that I hadn't called her. And I feel bad for her. And just imagining her, maybe she had to move. Maybe she had to leave the area. Maybe she can't afford to live here anymore. Or maybe she moved her business
1 (7m 48s):
To a new location,
2 (7m 49s):
To a new location.
1 (7m 52s):
My guess is what happened.
2 (7m 54s):
And that's exactly what happened. And it's just hilarious, the amount of, because of course it doesn't have anything to do with her and it has everything to do with me, but I just love catching myself in these moments and what you're talking about with the cancer. I mean, it's impossible for her not to project, whatever her knowledge or experiences of cancer onto her, this situation, it would be impossible. And in a good way for you not to project your experience, I mean, it turns out your projection was really helpful because you knew to write things down and you knew, and you could imagine her, you could, you, the freaking out was very familiar to you and yeah.
2 (8m 36s):
So it can be a good thing, but
1 (8m 38s):
Projection. Yeah. I think that you're right in that most things are projection and it doesn't mean that it isn't right also happening with the other person. So your projection could be spot on. So I guess then it's not really a projection, but it is, if you are a, you are giving the characteristics and the feeling and the tone of your own situation to their experience. But I definitely feel like the obvious projections for me are like, when, when I think, you know, someone's angry or upset with me, and really they're afraid that I'm upset with them.
1 (9m 21s):
Like that is the, if you ever, when people are like, what is projection? Like, look, dude, that's for me at its simplest form, it's like, oh, I'm projecting that onto you because, so anyway, but yeah, I, I think the, if we could harness the power of the brain doing its gymnastics, we could power the whole planet for, for decades in terms of the energy that is used. And I
2 (9m 51s):
Anxious energy
1 (9m 52s):
And just like going in, in the story, the narrative of whatever it is. And it, even if it's cause you can do. I mean, even though it's rare, like I can do a positive projection to like what I've talked about on this podcast of like thinking someone's gonna be my best friend or be projecting my hopes and dreams onto someone that I don't know that they're going to help me. They're going to, it's going to be awesome. And that usually doesn't happen just because it's a projection and you can't know, it usually is a different version of that. Even if it is a positive projection, but you know, my, my husband miles is always saying, you might as well project something positive, but you have to be careful. I have to be careful with that too, because then I get into situations where I'm like, why, why, why are, why, why aren't we best friends?
1 (10m 39s):
And why didn't you ask me to join your circus, whatever it is like. And then, so it's just a matter of like, for me, knowing that projection is part of the deal, but also eventually if I'm brave enough to check things out, like to, to figure out if the business just moved or like, yeah.
2 (11m 1s):
Yeah. That's what it, yeah. I think over time, as you know this about, as people know this about themselves and as their anger, maybe it's some of their anxiety decreases about these kinds of things. In any case, they learn to check the facts more. So this topic came up yesterday at my house because it just hasn't been a good week for Mike. It hasn't been a good week. Family-wise right. Kids. Aren't, we're just not doing that. Great. And so last night at dinner, I said, we're not doing that great. Like this one is, you're fighting with this one and this one is the bickering, blah, blah, blah. And we've had many, many, you know, cha children of two therapists.
2 (11m 44s):
We talk everything out or we try to talk everything out. We talking most things out it's to the point that my oldest is like, I can't to live in a family and in a house where we never have to talk about our feelings, he's he, he, he thinks this is all just such, which is understandable and fine. And we started talking about this issue of how every time you're having a fight, you're having every other fight that you've, you're, you're having all the other fights. Right? That is correct. And what we were trying to, or I was trying to convey, because one of the things that we're talking about is dishonesty and it was, and I, and I came up with an analogy that I'm pretty proud of.
2 (12m 30s):
So let's see what you think about it. If you think of the connection between relationships, trust, and honesty, really the relationship is the road long could stretch in any direction. The trust is the car and honesty is the gas. So you could have a beautiful car and a great road looks like it's going someplace fantastic. But if you don't have the honesty to put in the tank, your car is not going to go. You could have a great amount of honesty or get, or a truthfulness.
2 (13m 13s):
But if you don't have trust, if you have nothing, no gas, nothing to put the gas into, that's not going to help you get anywhere. And you can have an amazing road leading to these great vistas. But if you don't have the car, you know, I think that's great. Good. And how did I know it went over pretty great. And then one of my kids said, oh, I wish I could remember what it was. He said, well, you need this for a relationship. Oh, he said kindness. I said, okay, that could be the oil. Yeah. To refresh her kindness. Oh. And that was the other thing that came out of it. I said, let's, let's do a kindness campaign in our house. Let's do every day.
2 (13m 53s):
We try to say one pause and you know what? It was tricky for them. It was tricky for them to give each other a compliment that didn't have to do with themselves. Like the compliments started out as like, I like how you were. I like how you stopped saying this to me. I liked how you did something for me. And so then the challenge was, say a compliment that doesn't have anything to do with yourself. Anyway. So just as all, just to say you, if you really, if you want to make a difference in your life about these long held intractable beliefs, you just have to, you have to take an extremely active approach to do it.
2 (14m 33s):
You have to come up with like, not just thinking differently, but like actual steps.
1 (14m 39s):
I think that it's a constant, a constant work and it is right. It goes through phases. And it's interesting, you know, my dad was a child psychologist, but he was like super, super troubled. And so we never talked out anything. I think he was trying to get what he needed through his clients. Right. He was trying to get, he was projecting onto his clients, even though they're kids, we protect on the kids just the same. And he was also probably trying to get what he didn't get as a kid, through his clients. It's just a never ending.
1 (15m 19s):
But I think later in life, I hope, I hope that, that your kiddo can see that like the talking things out, as annoying as it probably gets, at least I think that right in there too, in the car, like maybe that the seatbelt could be like safety, right? In the relationship. We had no safety in our, in our family in terms of talking things out in term, you need it all. And I think that, that at least I hope kiddos who, who talked things out in their families learned that like it's safe to, it can be safe to express themselves. I think that's going to be who have kiddos as they get older in terms of not being super Uber people pleasers, but maybe you do all the work and you're just a people pleaser.
1 (16m 10s):
Anyway, I don't know. I don't have that experience. So I can't say
2 (16m 14s):
One little funny anecdote I'll share with you is I was driving with my daughter and I don't know how we got on the topic of if we weren't talking about self-esteem, but whatever we were talking about, she was asking me about something about me when I was a kid. And I said, well, probably not, because I didn't have very much self-esteem. And she said, what? And I said, you know, I just didn't like, have, I didn't think that highly of myself, I mean, the look on her face was just, she does, I have nothing, but self-esteem I say nice things to myself.
2 (17m 8s):
I think I'm, she's a say nice things to myself every morning. I, yeah. Yeah. Like she had this whole like, basically practice, like a spiritual practice of loving herself that I didn't even know. She had Aaron probably taught it to her. Aaron probably said, you know, you have to say nice things to yourself every day, but isn't that beautiful.
1 (17m 29s):
Awesome. That is, it gives me so much hope so. But yeah.
2 (17m 37s):
I wanted to ask you about how some games, which you mentioned. Okay. Did you say that's your favorite?
1 (17m 43s):
It's it's one of miles' favorite movies and it's a, it's a really interesting, weird, and it is, it's been a year since I've seen it, but it's wild it's. So
2 (17m 59s):
I saw it for the first time on you saying that. And did you hate it interviewing Joe Montana yet? No. Knowing it, it was, I liked it, but, and so maybe I was wondering if maybe we could ask our guests about this today, because what is it about me? Like sometimes that ratatat speaking style really works. Like, I think it really works in Glengarry Glen Ross and I, it just in this movie, it was so stilted. Every can came across the Stilton.
1 (18m 36s):
If I recall correctly, like one of the things that I liked about that was that the whole thing's a con right. So like fake. So like, I think this stilted for me was like, oh, this whole thing is like, everything's a con, that's how I interpreted it. Now it could just be dialogue that didn't work. But like, it, that's why it worked for me because I was like, oh my God, Metta on a metal level. Like it does seem stilted. And it seems weird. And even when, but I, for some reason, it like, w we like it really worked in miles is obsessed with the story. Like the way the story is told, you know, just in the acting, but you're right. The dialogue is odd.
2 (19m 17s):
So it would, do you think it's fair to say that the premise of the movie, as you've already said, is that everything is a con and that the psychiatrist is there, that's just a more legit and celebrated sort of con
1 (19m 35s):
Interested to see what, what Joseph thinks about that, you know, like about that take on that movie and then, yeah. Yeah. So house of games, and then the other one, you know, of his stuff is the criminal minds one. And then that, that, that I've watched, I mean, criminal minds is like, it just went off the air right. In 2020. And the other thing is my aunt made me tell him, said that I had to tell him that he gets better looking as he gets older. So we got to tell him that, but, and then my, and so criminal minds, and that I'm really interested.
1 (20m 15s):
He, he supports on his website. It says homeboy industries, which is about gang members. And I really want to see if he's, I'm assuming he's still affiliated with that since it's on his website. So I'd love to hear about that, but also just like, what was the Goodman school of drama? Like, what is the hell went on?
2 (20m 31s):
Yeah. Yeah. And I watched, I ended up watching a bunch of interviews with him. He really seems like the nicest guy in the world. He, he really does. And we have this weird sort of one. I only heard him mentioned this in one interview, but his Italian weren't from the same area as mine, but from the, from Sicily. And they came to the United States and settled in the Southwest because they were minors. And that's exactly what my dad's family did. And I never met any other Italians except for the people who lived in my dad's town, who did that. Cause every, you know, every other Italian goes to New York,
1 (21m 14s):
Sometimes Chicago later. But
2 (21m 16s):
Yeah,
3 (21m 26s):
Today on the podcast, we're talking with Joe Montana. Now, listen, if you don't know who he is, I don't know where you've been, but he's a star of stage. He's a Tony winner star of screen. You might have seen him on criminal minds, of course, but also the movie house games and godfather part three. I mean, the guy has done everything. He's, he's really a living legend. So please enjoy our conversation with Joe.
4 (21m 57s):
I'm an old man. I have a lot of stuff.
2 (22m 1s):
You are an Zadie is
4 (22m 6s):
Zadie. Nope. Oh,
2 (22m 8s):
It's like a term for like a hot dad.
4 (22m 13s):
Your daddy
2 (22m 14s):
Before.
1 (22m 14s):
Can we start just since we're being weird, my aunt, my Tia wanted me to tell you that you, as you get older, you the Mo the most, you get more and more handsome. So we'll just start by that thing
4 (22m 26s):
That I already love her.
1 (22m 29s):
I'll tell her, I'll tell her. Thank you for joining us. Yeah.
4 (22m 33s):
Oh, well, I mean you, are you, are you currently at the school now or past it?
1 (22m 40s):
I'm like a grandmother. Oh,
4 (22m 42s):
Okay. Got it. Okay. Okay. I wasn't sure that's what your alumni okay. That's
2 (22m 50s):
Yes. Okay, great. So we, we always start by saying, congratulations, Joe Montana, you survived theater school.
4 (22m 57s):
I did school.
2 (22m 59s):
Yeah. And you are our first Goodman person. And we want to hear all about it. I mean, cause you've stayed involved with the school. So, you know what it's like now, what are some of the main differences?
4 (23m 12s):
Well, I mean, it's hard for me to compare differences in terms of the academia of the school, because I would set an attendance once it moved to DePaul. But so that's, that's a tough question in terms of that. But all I can say is, I mean, I'm, I'm glad it was perpetuated. In other words, had to be a whole different ball game back when I was going, because first of all was the Goodman school of drama. We were located in the basement of the art Institute. So it was like being in a little underground or was no windows. It was a big deal when they made that little theater. So there wasn't even a theater that existed outside of the, the main stage, but students weren't even allowed to perform on that main stage.
4 (23m 58s):
I mean, until the second year, when you were eligible to do children's theater, which was kind of a moneymaker for the school, which was kind of cool. Cause every Saturday you do these performances, which I did. I did all four. I did all three children's shows. That's my second year. Plus they had a summer program where they actually paid you. It wasn't much but 50, you know, you can do the summer, the program. I don't even know if they still continued that. Did they do that at DePaul? That they have the children's theater program?
1 (24m 29s):
The children's theater program is actually still it's the moneymaker I believe.
4 (24m 34s):
Exactly. All right. Yeah. So, but it was good. I mean, it was a good experience. Oh fuck. They had a thing. I don't know if you knew this, but over the Mark Key of the theater at the Goodman theater was carved into the wood. It's probably, it has been there since the inception, when I don't know when that theater was built, it could have been the turn of the century, if not earlier, but it said you yourself must set flame to the fact it's what you have brought. We were aware of that. No, no. Well, that was carved into the, I mean, in other words, we were in the audience and it was a nice theater. It's like a 700 seat theater. You sit in that theater and then you saw this beautiful wood proceeded and carved in huge letters.
4 (25m 18s):
Was you and yourself much settling to the fact that faggot is a bundle of sticks. You know, obviously it had other kind of back in the sixties, a whole other kind of phenomenon. So the reason I bring it up is because at the end of the school year, they had the golden faggot award and it was these little, it was, it was, it was kind of cute. It would take these upside down plastic champagne cups and put these gold bundles of sticks and paint them gold. You know, it was, it was very like crap since, you know, it was like crafts arts and crafts and they, and they had this big ceremony at the end of the year and they gave out these golden bag of the words.
4 (26m 0s):
And I was very flattered because I won, I won, I won three that year. I won for all three of the shows that I had done at the Goodman for the summer. So I was, I was, I was, I was, I was a big ticket in the children's theater. I was a hot ticket in children's theater. But the one thing I could say is, and again, you would be best to tell me if it was somewhat similar in scope, but the theater school was run very much. Like maybe I can imagine maybe like a theater school would have been run in the 18 hundreds. I mean, it was very specific, very, I mean that first year you really didn't do anything.
4 (26m 43s):
You just classes, you took speech movement, this, that, and the other, but there was hardly any performance. It was, it was almost like they were trying to someone like the military. It's almost like let's get the ego out of you. I don't care what you did in high school or junior. I went, I went two years, junior college before I came to the Goodman. But it was like, all, all you did was you had an improv class maybe or stuff like that, but there was no performance outlet. There really was none. And they wanted it that way. And God forbid, if you told them, you know, maybe you had an addition, there was very little outside stuff like TV or film very little anyway. But if you even mentioned that, it'd be like, you know, what are you crazy? You know, you're a theater actor, the whole thing.
4 (27m 23s):
Yeah, go ahead. I went to Martin, Martin, Martin, junior college in Cicero, Illinois.
1 (27m 30s):
I'm from Chicago, I'm from Rogers park and then we moved to Evanston. So my mom taught at Oakton community college. So I was wondering if it was open.
4 (27m 37s):
No, it was Martin to the college. And then it was still in the same building as the high school. They have their own building now in Cicero, but it was back there. It was in the same building. So we used to put a piece of grass in the third floor. Paul called it the campus. I mean, I didn't have much in terms of education, past high school, but it worked out. But, but, but, but the classes were very, I mean, like there was the left. I don't know if they still taught the less SAC methods for speech.
2 (28m 9s):
They combined it with when we were there anyway with Linklater, it was less.
4 (28m 13s):
Okay. Well it was less sec then. And it was huge. I mean, you're walking around with a cork in your mouth and looking at mirrors and doing all that stuff. It was very, you know, rigid. I guess it'd be the best way to put it. And for a long time I thought, what the hell is this? Why is it, you know, this is bullshit. What am I doing? All this crazy stuff. And it really wasn't until later when I, and I mean, I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but after my two years, and I, and I paid my way through, I mean, back then tuition was like 800 bucks a year. And I, and I, I, we had no money. My parents, that's why I couldn't go to college, but I took student loans both years. In other words, back then they offered, you can, you could borrow $2,000 from the United States government each year for school.
4 (28m 60s):
And I did, and I would use 800 bucks to get into the school for the first year. And the rest I bought my parents for color TV. It wasn't a thing then. And I used it for rent because I lived with two other guys that went to the Goodman. And my second year I got a scholarship, but I still took the loan because I needed the money. So then I just used the two grand for, you know, whatever rent and things like that. What was funny? Wasn't so then my third year, I had a scholarship for my third year, and this was the summer of 1969, but they were doing the play hair was coming to Chicago and they were holding auditions and something like over 3000 people were going to audition for the play.
4 (29m 42s):
So it was like, I mean, it would be like Hamilton holding auditions for a Chicago company of Hamilton or something like that. So I thought, well, what the hell I had done? My, my background was musical comedy actually in high school and junior college for the most part. So I thought, oh, what the hell? I'll try out for it. Well, as it turned out, I got cast and it was like, no, I had to make a decision. Do I do my third year of Goodman? My third and final year of Goodman, school of drama or two here. So I remember meeting with Dr. Charles Mughal, who's running the school at the time. And I, I honestly think I would have been influenced by what he thought, because I thought, you know, I don't know, it's a Broadway musical.
4 (30m 24s):
It's my first job. I get to join equity and become a professional actor. But on the other hand, they're apparently looking at hair like, oh, you're doing so, but I went and met with them and I have to say, Dr. McCall is in his, whatever wisdom you want to call it, whatever. I, I explained to him what was going on. And I was like a month out of maybe starting school for my third and final year. And he said, listen, Joe, or Mr. Montagne or whatever you called me. He said, you came here to be an actor. They're offering you a job. Your third year's mainly going to be performance for whatever.
4 (31m 6s):
Maybe he understood me better than I understood myself. But he said, oh God, congratulations can carry on. And you know, live your life and you know, to make, start your path. And they did. And I never looked back.
1 (31m 22s):
Can you imagine if you hadn't done that, who knows would've happened? But that was, I love that. He said that and that he was not like, no, you must stay in school because who knows would've happened. You probably would have been still a mega talent, but you never know. And so you did have,
4 (31m 39s):
I did hair. I did here for a year and a half on bro. I mean, it was on the Shubert theater downtown, which is now the, I dunno, the American airlines theater. I don't know what it's called, but we were at the Schubert. And the fact that show was so successful, it ran there for a year and then it was already booked for, I'd never thought a play could run for a year in Belltown. So then we moved to the Blackstone, which ultimately got bought by theater school. But we moved into the Blackstone in 19, had to be done 19 sometime in 1970. And we ran there for quite a while. And then I joined the national tour and that's where my wife and I got together. She was, she, she we'd known each other from, I was in junior college.
4 (32m 20s):
She was in high school, but we used to do district wide musicals out in Cicero. She went to Morton west high school. I went to more needs. We did district wide music. She also got cast in here, but this is somebody I'd known known from that theater department. It's so tremendous. I have to say that from Morton east Martin west, the junior college, that of the four leads in hair, three of us were from that program of more, yeah. Out of 3000 people auditioning, they all came. Three of us came from that high school east or Morton west. Yeah. Incredible, incredible. The one guy who ran the department was to this day, I've been touch with him. He's like almost 90, but him and the people who worked with him, they ran that department.
4 (33m 6s):
Like I've looked, I've worked on Broadway now a few times. And each time I walk into a Broadway theater, I look around and go, well, it's just all right, but it's not more than these high school theater is not as first as big theater at Morton. These high schools built like in the twenties and thirties. And it's a, it's a landmark and it's like 2300 seats. I mean, it's, it's massive and it's beautiful. And, and we went to plays and they ran these auditions. Like my wife would, I've always, and we're still together. My wife, I mean, we've been together over 50 years, but we'll, we'll, we'll talk about how it was harder to audition for the plays at Morton east and Western. It was positioned for professionals.
4 (33m 46s):
That's neither here nor there, but anyway, that's what I left the Goodman 69 to Joe to go into the, the hair. But now to get back to my point being, you know, you know, why am I taking these classes, the movement, you know, we're going to run around with Tom. Do you remember who taught the movement at the time? And, and, and Sue and park, we did the less sex stuff. All of a sudden I get cast. Now, all of a sudden, I'm doing eight shows a week of a musical. This is a whole other ball game for anybody. Who's been a student, all of a sudden, I've seen other kids in the cast, like they're losing their voice, they're doing this and that.
4 (34m 26s):
And I'm realizing I'm having to do stuff like, you know, using the Y buzz and putting, you know, making sure when I'm singing and doing lines on the stage, as big as the Schubert, you know, it's a project in order to get it, you know, start to tap in to those things I learned. And the same thing would movement class. You know, I remember at my audition, I think that helped me get cast because they'd have you do some improv stuff. And a lot of people would just like, we're doing Dick, you know? And I'm, I I'm, I'm, I'm thinking I'm trying to be imaginative because I'd taken these movement classes. And it was like, so I had to say, in retrospect, I thought to myself, you know, what, as strict as it was, and as kind of our, as it, maybe it seemed, or, you know, serious minded as it was, it has kind of paid off because many of the cast ultimately got Tamo Horgan, who was the director, was a guy who was a great director.
4 (35m 22s):
He's got, he directed the original Broadway show. There was only four other, three other companies besides the New York of that. There was New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco and Tom O'Rourke and directed all of them. And he was just brilliant. You know, he was, he, he created, he made hair, what it was by, you know, making it imagine too, this was, there was the doom scene. It was all that little stuff to kind of piddling. The audiences will make them want to see it, you know, but it was so much more than that. The music was great. It was the Hamilton of its time. But, but all of that came into play. And a lot of the kids he hired Tom would hire like raw talent initially. Like when they cast the show, they thought this person thinks like, I'll give you an example.
4 (36m 5s):
When I went to audition, I, you know, I've been going to the Goodman for two years. I show up in a seersucker jacket with a tie and the music to Brigadoon because I'm thinking it's a musical, I'll sing, you know, you know, the heads are Underhill and, and I want to look presentable and I walk in and here's Jerome Ragaini and Jim righto and Tahmoh Oregon. And they looked like they stepped off, you know, like a rolling stones cover. And they're looking at me like I'm from Mars, dressed in a suit and tie. And I said, now I'm going to sing a song from Brigadoon. You want to go cast way to go walk?
4 (36m 47s):
And they were like, I can see, they were like in shock, but I guess I was in a rock band for like five years. I mean, I had a decent voice and yeah. Yeah. So they saw something in me and they said, look, we want you to come back. You know, this was the first callback it come back, but you dump the suit. You know, luckily my hand was a little long cause I was in a band that was still in the band. So my hair was actually longer than most people. It was like a kind of beat a look, you know, they said, get rid of all that stuff and can pick something a little, you know, pick a song that's, you know, and I realized, oh, this is not like, pretend, you know, you know, love rock musical.
4 (37m 27s):
These guys really are like that. Of course, I came in, I borrowed one of the student that I remember his name was Dan partner. He was like a hippie from, from Colorado. And he used to wear like a syrup to school, basically a rug with a hole in it. I borrowed that. I wore that to the next position. So I walked in with that and you know, maybe saying something from like blood, sweat, and tears or something like, yeah, here we go. And I wound up doing two or three more callbacks and got cast anyway. But my point being many of the students got, or not students, many of the cast members got dropped along the way. And not only that, when I got cast, I was cast what they called the tribe. I was a member of the tribe.
4 (38m 8s):
My one major number was the flag song. That was like my solo. But otherwise I did all, anything stuff. I wasn't one of initially one of the leads by my wife, Arlene for Morton west was she played genie. And then other kids were more nice. Ted Aliota was Claude, but he broke his leg actually early in rehearsals and they had to replace them. But that's what I meant. We had three of us that ultimately did delete in the show, but I quickly became the understudy because the guy was wasn't it who had to leave because he was like a rock and roll, not a rectum. He was like a Vegas kind of guy. He had a lot of flashes and stuff, but he couldn't hold up to eight shows a week going on. And then, yeah, I mean, once you, who've never done that, you know, it's a responsibility and a lot of them didn't take that seriously.
4 (38m 53s):
They'd be out partying every night and they come in, I can't talk. So bottom line once, once camo Horgan left and it became like, Hey, this, we got to do this as, this is a job. Then things started to fall into place like Andre de shields, who you may know who he is. We wanted to Tony a couple of years ago, he was in our company that cast Stan Shaw, not another guy when I took some notoriety from roots and other things, Elena Reed, anyway, but it started, it started to shake itself out. And people who really kind of had some, some element of knowing what they were doing, Jonathan Banks. So you may know from breaking bad and all that, he was our stage.
4 (39m 34s):
He was our stage manager. He tried out, he was, he tried out, but he couldn't sing well enough. So, but he lied and said he had some experience in stage managing. So they made them
2 (39m 45s):
Everything you're describing about your curriculum sounds actually exactly like what we did, the differences. We did it for four years and, and the law and you couldn't perform your first year. You only got to do something on a very small scale. Second year. You really didn't get into the casting pool till third and fourth year.
4 (40m 4s):
What's funny is I got, I got, I did something in my first year, totally by a fluke because I had, I was the only kid in school with hair, like down to here. The one of the main stage show they did one of the first main stage shows. They did my first year with Caesar and Cleopatra. But Carrie Snodgrass who wound up winning him, nominated for an Oscar later, married Neil young and passed away. But anyway, she was Cleopatra. And this guy, Marie Mathison was, was an actor that they used to bring in like names. He was somewhat of a name of theater. You know, they, they would bring in name people to play the leads, but no students, no first-year students could be a, well, they use third year students and stuff to play other parts, but first year, absolutely not.
4 (40m 48s):
But I remember the, the director, this guy named, I forget his name, but he sees me walking around school with his hair down to here. And he, he tells, you know, Mugu says, I need that guy in the place. The only person in the entire school who looks at gypsy, I'm going to have to put wigs on everybody. Cause everybody's, everyone has got short hair. Nobody was. And so they put me, so I just played like a spirit carrier, you know, that whole production. But I used to drive Carrie Snodgrass home every night because she happened to live near where I lived. I got to know her pretty well, but that was my, that was, that was the one. And only time I made it to the Goodman main stage because I left the school before I would have been eligible.
4 (41m 30s):
Otherwise,
2 (41m 31s):
Did they have the cut program then where they asked me to be invited back every year?
4 (41m 40s):
Well, it was, I'll tell you this. It was a little different back then in the sense that you didn't audition my first year, you, you had letters of recommendation and, and also, you know, the Vietnam war was going on and just be, sometimes there'll be military people coming in and out that wanted to become actors and they would get letters of recommendation. So we'd have some people in, there were like guys that were a little older that were, had done a couple of years in the army, whatever. So, but what they did is I'll give you an example. My, my freshmen class was 60, as I recall, like about 60 people. My second year class was 12 that's how many got cut or quit there was.
4 (42m 27s):
But I think it was kind of self immolating with over to word is turning yourself on fire, because what would happen is, I mean, there were literally a couple of people who were like certifiably insane. So I mean, all of a sudden you see you do an improv and all of a sudden they really wanted to kill you, you know, things like that. And so, so a lot of people fell along the wayside and got weeded out because they shouldn't have been there in the first place, but they'd had at least an audition process, which they started sometime after I left, they would have at least maybe seen that. I don't know. But, but, but, but just going on letters of recommendation, didn't quite cut it.
4 (43m 13s):
So, so there was a lot of people there who realized, well, no, what am I doing here? I don't want to do this. Especially with, with being as strict as it was. I think they thought it was going to be like, Hey, I can have fun and do this. You know, some people actually switched programs. They would call like, you know what? I don't want to be an actor. I want to be a second designer. Or they go into the lighting department, you know, something like that. So there was a big attrition. And the third year, as I said, if I would've stayed in my third year of the 12th, only five continued. So that third year class was only five that had done the previous two years. And like I said, some left for different reasons. Some just didn't want to like it anymore. Some got a job. Like I did some, you know, just went back home and some just couldn't cut it.
4 (43m 58s):
We might, may not have been asked to come back, but you would think they'd want the money. I mean, think, you know, I think a lot of it was more, they just, people just couldn't quite handle it. I was very, very close to Bella hick and probably I w I, you know, and I can't speak for the late Bella. It can, but she probably had to name maybe the five students. She was closest to her in her life. I think I would be one of them. And I don't mean that in a boastful way, because we got in a very personal way. She knew I was kind of like one of the broke kids, you know, that like was living off my loan and stuff.
4 (44m 39s):
So literally she met her husband, Frank, you know, while I was there, it was a carpenter at the school. At the time she hired me to paint their apartment when she got married. So after school, I would go to their apartment and painted, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't a painter, but she did it only because she knew I needed the money. And so we were very close. And even beyond after I left the good men that would come and visit her call her, I've been to her home. Her and Frank, we were very, very close. I might, my dear friend Renee I saw was, was another one she got very close to. And she used to talk about Geraldine, Paige.
4 (45m 21s):
She was always close to Geraldine page would have been married to rip torn a wonderful actress. Well, we didn't have a specific acting teacher. I mean, with the cat, the co the, the staff, I mean, there was, nobody was, there was no like one-on-one thing, but she was certainly, I would say she was my strongest influence. She and she directed. I know she directed the first of the children's shows I did there. I think maybe even two of them. And that was one of her. I mean, I could tell I was one of her favorites. You know what I mean with her? And I, we bonded. I mean, we just worked, she had a couple people that you can tell, and there was a leak you may have heard about Eugenie Leon, who was the teacher there.
4 (46m 2s):
She was from, she was something, she was Russian. And she was from the Moscow art theater and that whole thing. And she, she, she, she studied, you know, she, she knew Stanislavski. I mean, she was something, she had this heavy Russian accent. You can look her up because she she's, she was in a few movies. My name was Eugenia, Leon Povich, but she taught it this way. And she, I wasn't my Joseph, my Joseph, that's what she called me. She was actually wonderful because he was such a character. Patrick Henry was another one on the staff who taught the history class. And he was kind of, he started the St. Peter that became very prominent in Chicago, back in the sixties, late sixties, early seventies.
4 (46m 44s):
And so the staff then was like, Patrick, Henry and Leon to bitch Bella, Joe slowish. Those are the, those were the main ones. And then there were others that I could think of. Sue Ann Park taught voice.
2 (46m 59s):
Did Dr. Bella always have that a cervic wit we've had so many people on this podcast telling their Bella stories. I mean, she had the greatest one-liners my favorite one was she said to somebody you're standing in the middle of your costume.
1 (47m 21s):
The other one was, we had a friend who went to her and said, I really wanted to be in this play. Why, why wasn't I, I wasn't. I, and she said, because I didn't want you in my play.
4 (47m 36s):
Yeah. Bella would cut to the chase. I could. Yeah, no, she, she was, I loved her to death and yes, if I had to pick what was my favorite instructor or people on the staff, there would have definitely been Bella. Tom
4 (48m 20s):
It was a unique time in our history. That's okay. I just wanna make sure it's not the gate
2 (48m 31s):
Launched with hair. And then what did you, did you keep doing theater? When did you transition into television and film?
4 (48m 39s):
Oh yeah, I did theater for, well, I did theater for almost 15 years. In other words, after here, the next actually thing I did was Godspell in Chicago. I got cast in Godspell at the Studebaker theater over on Michigan avenue there. I think it's gone now. I got cast. I was Judas in that and I did that for a year. So I really thought that was my ticket. I thought, you know, I'm going to be a musical comedy guy. I'm going to be Jim Dale, hopefully something like that. But while I was at doing a Godspell, Andre de shields, who I mentioned to, I'd been in the hair cast with me, went back and started working with this group that he had worked with out of the university of Wisconsin, which was the organic theater company run by Stuart Gordon.
4 (49m 27s):
So they had come back from Wisconsin because they basically have been kind of kicked out because he had done this nude version of Peter pan up there, you know, which was very controversial. It was a completely new, I think Andre played tiger Lily, which gives you an idea of what the, you know, the imagination of that. But that's what was great about the organic theater at the time. So anyway, he comes back and he's working with organic theater. So of course, while I'm doing Godspell, he invites my wife. We weren't married yet, but we were still together. My mother, Arlene and I to come see him, do the show, work at the organic theater. This is like 1971, maybe 72, 72.
4 (50m 8s):
And we see it. And the show just knocked our socks off because it was done in three, they did 3, 3, 1 up in three parts that ran in Chicago for like over a year. It was tremendous. You got to also realize too Greece was playing at the Kingston minds theaters, a midnight show. We used to go see that. That was like
2 (50m 24s):
Theater. Like,
4 (50m 27s):
Yeah, it was a theater. It was called the Kingston
2 (50m 29s):
Mind. Oh, I used to work there when it was a blues bar. I didn't know it had been a theater.
4 (50m 34s):
Oh, it was a theater. And the reason it was called Kingston minds is because have you ever heard of the act of Jack Wallace? Well, Jack Jack recently passed away about a year ago, but Jack June Picasa who started the Kingston ones, she left Jacqueline at that time was a terrible alcoholic, but it was cleaning himself up and she let him live in the theater in exchange for cleaning up, sweeping up. And his father was a miner in Southern Illinois at the Kingston mines. So June decided to name the theater, Kingston, mines theater, and that whole complex because of Jack's father working in these mines. Cause she said she had such an affinity towards Jack because he was this incredible human beings and then wound up checking it, cleaned himself up and wound up between one flew over the Cuckoo's nest, Chicago Murphy and got all this acclaim.
4 (51m 21s):
And they made a documentary, which you should see called the portrait of an actor. He had been in prison, you know, Jack and I worked together many, many times after that, we did a movie for a Columbia student film called Medusa challenger and actually got a lot of play. He did the original, he was in Glengarry Glen Ross with me on Broadway. I mean, he was, he did a lot of Mamet movies. Jack went on, he did things he did up anyway. You can look them up with Jack was a force of nature. The apitomy of Chicago, raw talent ex-convict who becomes a Broadway actor type of thing. But anyway, Kingston, mines. Yeah, that was the midnight show at Kingston, mines, Greece.
4 (52m 2s):
And from there went to, went to New York and became one. And it wasn't really a musical at the Kingston money. It was a play with some music, but it was much more raw. I mean, there were stuff in like, fuck you. And you know, I mean, it was, it was, it actually had a lot more balls. It was more, I thought it was actually better than what it became, but of course it had to that to become commercial. But anyway, that's another story. So I don't even know how we got on that
2 (52m 34s):
Talking about what, between hair and
4 (52m 39s):
Right. So Godspell, we went to see work and I was so taken by the show. I thought it was so imaginative. It was kind of like what hair was to me. It was like this guy, Stuart, Gordon. I mean, he's like, wow. Cause the thing was, there were, they were using like goofy little props and stuff, but this thing was so explosions and things and lighting and scientist, little tiny theater, you know, up in uptown, you know, up on beacon street, there's a terrible neighborhood. It's terrible. And it was like, what did, what is this? You know, this is incredible. So anyway, that showed them went onto Broadway while I was doing Godspell.
4 (53m 19s):
But at flopped New York, wasn't kind of ready for it. Unfortunately, as it turned out that here's later star wars happened and all that, we could actually predated all that stuff. It just wasn't, it, it probably because they, they, they, they, they, they, their vision was too big. They should've kept it like an as an off-Broadway show. And I'm thinking of been huge, but they tried to expand it to Broadway. And you can't because what made it, it was camping and the camp didn't work on a giant Broadway stage anyway. So Stuart Gordon comes back to Chicago with the whole company. Some of the people left, John heard was got to be pretty well known. He left, but some of the original state court has heard a few others. It's not, they said, well, we're gonna come back and re restart the company, the organic.
4 (54m 3s):
And at this time though Godspell was ending. And I decided, I don't know if they still have it in Chicago. They used to have these equity showcases where you could, if you were an equity member, you could put together a scene and then they would invite agents.
1 (54m 18s):
They still have versions of it yet at the, at the theater building on Belmont. They had it for a long time.
4 (54m 22s):
Well, that year now I've Godspell had finished. And I thought, well, what am I doing? This equity showcasing, maybe, you know, that'll do something. So I, I, I used this one actor, Richard Gillilan, who was married to Jean smart, who became my dearest friend who actually just passed away last year. And Michelle Taylor, another pretty well known actor also passed away few years ago. But the three of us, myself, Richard and Michelle decided to do a play. And I said, you know, let me ask this director who did work, who worked for my friend, Andre de shields. See if he'd like to direct it, because you've just back from New York, maybe he's come, nothing to do. And I call and he did, he was looking at Stuart was like, be great.
4 (55m 3s):
So he directed us in this little showcasing and it was wonderful, you know, and nothing really. I mean, it didn't matter what came of it, but what came of it was he asked us the three of us to join his company, the new organic theater company. And I had nothing else going. And I thought I liked this guy. And I thought, yeah, I'll do it. Michelle said, he'll do it. Totally. The reason Richard do it, didn't do it. He got offered a job at ACP in San Francisco after Godspell. And he went off and did that. So Michelle and I joined the organic theater. The first play we did was the wonderful high school suit by Ray Bradbury, which actually turned out to be a huge hit. We toured Europe. We took it to Europe with 20, 25 years later.
4 (55m 45s):
I've made the movie that story, you know, for Disney, we actually made the movie with, I was the only one from that cast, but it was, he signed Miralis and Eddie almost Gregory Sierra. It was great. Anyway, the movie I thought I loved the movie came up. I thought pretty well, Disney doesn't push it pretty much, but at least it came out anyway. So I was that, that started my career with organic theater. I wound up staying five years less than doing a play that I conceived, which was Bleacher bums about people and the bleachers of the Chicago Cubs. I came in with this idea with the summertime. We had used all our money on our shows that year and storage said to the cast, but a company, anybody got an idea for a plane, it will cost us nothing.
4 (56m 31s):
And I said, well, I have this idea of a play of the people who sit in the bleachers. All we'd have to do is build somebody to wear what you wear to the ballpark. And that's what got Bleacher bums going in.
2 (56m 44s):
Is that what inspired their whole SNL thing with the bears?
4 (56m 51s):
No, no, no. I had, I D I mean, I didn't, I mean, you'd have to ask them. I mean, I didn't, they, Robert speical who came up with that bit, he, I think he just did it thinking I'm posting this and Elena I'm from Chicago. I'd be the guy to do this bit
1 (57m 7s):
Beliefs. Your bum is brilliant. It's like one of the first things I saw as someone from that area as like a teenager. And I thought, oh, this is like, this is Chicago. This is, you know, this is my town. It is so iconic. It is hilarious. And I didn't know that was the origin story, Joe.
4 (57m 29s):
No. And it came up and, and look, I mean, if you go to Samuel French and get the script that says conceived by Joel, Montanian written by, and the, my name is in there with the original cast as it should be, because we, once I pitched the idea, cause I used to sit in that section of the bleachers and solvers going around me and I said, hi wave. So I brought the company to the ball game. We went there for three days in a row, Wrigley. Felix said, am I right? Isn't this a play? And so we went back to the theater and did improv or improv and taped them. So we did like nine hours worth of improv. And from that cleaned the script and we, and we built it around a nine ending plate. That was, that was important. I remember going to Wrigley field with a Nagra recorder recording sounds just so it helps to sell it.
4 (58m 11s):
And when people walked into theater, we had a guy selling popcorn that was organic. Wasn't wanting it to be immersible like you were there. You know, we did the play. Cops was like that to like, you walked in, you thought you're walking into a diner. That's midnight in Chicago. So anyway, but I got lucky with that one. It was like, yeah, the idea was a good idea, but I couldn't have done it alone. And so collectively, and it became obviously to this day, they still do it. I mean, I get, you know, worldly checks for like 30 bucks, six months because we shared a royalties with all the original cast.
1 (58m 44s):
Do you feel like you're an insomnia, like an ensemble actor? Do you consider yourself like working in an ensemble is your jam?
4 (58m 52s):
Yeah, I would say it's my, it's my jam because that's what I know. I mean, like I said, as I said, when I finally, like I said, when Glen Gary finally happened in 1984, which kind of did change, like certainly changed my career plane. I remember after I won the Tony award that night, somebody came up to me and said, well, what's it like to win the Tony awards? I said, it's like winning the lottery, but I, but I've been buying tickets for 15 years. I've been doing theater from, from 1969 to 1984. No bang. This happened. So, I mean, all I knew was ensemble work, especially at the organic, but even in the musicals, it had to be me or will listen to work.
4 (59m 34s):
As soon as you're working with, even with one other actor, it's an ensemble, it's a one man show.
1 (59m 39s):
Right. Right. And I think it translates for me watching you on television. So I'm a true crime nut, like every other lady in this world. But I, so, so, and, and criminal minds is one of my, my favorite things of all time. And what I noticed about you on that show is that there is still an ensemble feel to that show for me, that it is not, it's like it's a family you're watching. And I think that's what makes it so amazing.
4 (1h 0m 5s):
Well, that's, I'll, I'll tell you this. When I joined the show, when it came to me, you know, Mandy Patinkin had been on the show when he left and he left kind of going, that's a whole story in itself. We just kind of, he just left the first day of shooting the third season. He just didn't come. You know, there's a lot of reasons and that's a whole other story. So anyway, now if you've watched the show, there was like three or four episodes that they kind of, they had to scramble because they wrote them out. And so there was nobody there so that I get the call saying, they're interested in you playing this part. You know, Mandy Patinkin left the show and they're looking for somebody to kind of fill that slot. And I didn't know anything about it. But the only thing I knew about criminal minds was that my dear friend, Michelle Taylor loved the show and told me, you gotta watch the show and I still didn't watch it.
4 (1h 0m 54s):
But now I'm being offered the role. I better see what this is. So I watched, they, they gave me the episodes. I watched like one or two of the very first episodes from season one, but I said, I want to see what they're doing now. So they sent me the episodes that they had just done without Mandy, you know, so I can see what it was going up. And I watched it. But I thought when, when Mandy was there, it was kind of like, he was like, you know, leading the parade. Right. But when I watched those episodes without him, I thought, this is no, this is not Magnum PI. This is not house.
4 (1h 1m 34s):
This is an ensemble. Everyone, actors are tremendous. And they have such a strong identity. You know, Dr. Ray, he was my favorite right away. This fucking character is unbelievable. I love this guy. And I don't even know. And same thing with Penelope Garcia and every single one of them, they had such a strong identity. And now it was really able to blossom because that's the guy who was kind of leading the parade. Isn't there now. And they all have to kind of pick up the slack. So I looked at it. So then I took the meeting with the no shit. I can't believe I'm spacing on his name. Ed Bernero, who was the show runner ex Chicago cop 10 years in Chicago.
4 (1h 2m 20s):
So, first thing, when I met him, I walked in his office and he had these white Sox things. I go, well, two out of three, eight bed is an Italian. You're Italian from Chicago, but you're a Sox fan. I said, but
1 (1h 2m 33s):
I'll
4 (1h 2m 33s):
Take the meeting. So then I said to him, we talked and I said, and it was a short meeting. And he even brought it up later. He says it was the shortest meeting I ever had. I expected all these questions, that things. And he says, I remember you coming and looking around saying, well, you're Italian, you're cop from Chicago. You're a Sox fan. I could live with that. I'll do it. And then he was like, you'll do it. I said, yeah, I'm in. And then I explained it. But what I said was, I said, but here's the condition. I said, you got to keep the ensemble that you have. Now. I said, don't put me at the front of the parade. I said, yeah, I'll accept being number one on the call sheet, which was important to me because I've been around long enough to realize it trickles down from number one.
4 (1h 3m 15s):
And if Mandy was number one and he's a little nuts, they don't need, I don't need to find out that somebody else is a little nuts and it's going to trickle down to me as number 2, 3, 4, or five. I gotta leave. I gotta be at least in terms of that, you know, I want to set the tone because I'm not going to be nuts. I know myself well enough to think it's going to be okay. We're gonna have a good time on this. Especially if everybody was still shook up, they thought maybe the show was going to go away. You know, when he left and I said, look, no, this show, I don't think it's going to go anywhere. I said, it's like a baseball team. I said, you lost the left fielder. I'll come in. I'll play left field. I said, but you know, it's not my show. I said, so I said, I, in fact I said, the analogy I made is I said, I want to be Dr.
4 (1h 3m 58s):
Smith from lost in space. I want to be the old Crump curmudgeon in the group. I said, but I don't want to be the captain. I said, no. I said, let's calm this Gibson. Be the, that guy. Let him see. Who's the likely guy he's running the team. Let me just be, you know what I am. I said, so they built this whole backstory. He and I, and then we, and then we even did the episode. We saw the young versions of us. And, but anyway, so it's right from the jump I felt this was a tremendous ensemble. That if you look at all the great shows, long running, especially television of all time, that's the reason we could go to Mary Tyler Moore. You go to, I love Lucy
1 (1h 4m 40s):
Reminds me of, so I'm a huge, I was a huge Barney Miller show fan growing up. And it has a similar vibe to me where everybody's, it just, it, it, you can sense the fact that everyone respects the other person's work and everyone does their jobs. So well that I cared about. I never cared about like, when I watch true crime, I'm like, eh, if they get off it it's okay. But like in criminal minds, I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Every one was essential to the whole show. It was brilliant.
4 (1h 5m 16s):
That's what keeps the show going because of course there's going to be changes as we did. You know, some people come and go, there was the cast changes to summit, but the nucleus always was still there. And some people filled in some didn't fill in maybe as well as others did. But I tell you where we wound up the final eight and it went everywhere from eight to seven, five to six, back to eight, we wound up with eight and boy that last two seasons. We got really tight that group. Cause I mean, I think we were all of a similar mind. It was for women for men. And we were all like all on the same track and you know, spoiler alert. There's a good chance. We'll come back.
4 (1h 6m 2s):
We'll see. All I can tell you is there there's strong interest from CaroMont plus because they're that new outlet and everything. And of course they, they realized they would like to have something what we do so well in syndication. We're still, I think one of the top five in the world, I get fan mail from China. It's ridiculous. I've been this year, I've been invited to about 150. You talk about girls, high school, girls graduation, some marriages, but mostly graduation, young girls. I get it. They're fascinated by this because they want to know what to avoid. I think
1 (1h 6m 42s):
I used to see myself am in the, because Gina, Gina and I were both therapists for many years and then, and now writers. And so I could see myself in those characters as a, as a woman, it usually true crime that the problem is it's all men all the time, but criminal minds had such compelling women characters that weren't just victims. Actually. It was amazing. So that's just my,
4 (1h 7m 9s):
Yeah, they're so strong. All four of them, the four we officially wound up with, I mean, Kiersten Padgett, AIJ Aisha. I mean, I can't think of for a stronger woman in EV and we all got along so well, there's no egos. There's no nothing. I mean, it's like, that's what, we're all, we're all in. I mean, we're all, you know, th th they're doing a lot of business in negotiations, but we, as a collective group have said, we would like nothing better than to get back together and play around for another whatever, how long. So we'll see what happens as soon as it'll happen would be probably spring of next year, but I'll, I'll let you know,
2 (1h 7m 46s):
And we will. So I want to respect your time and I know we're going to have to wrap up soon, but I've got to ask about David Mamet. Who's such a big part of your career. I actually hadn't seen house of games until a couple of days ago and it reminded me. So I always have the same experience watching a man at play, which is I can't get into it. I can't get into it. I'm all the way in. I never want to leave. That's always my journey. And it was the same with that movie. And I actually, before we were talking to you, I was asking BAAs what she makes of this sort of stilted language.
2 (1h 8m 25s):
And actually her answer for your movie is, well, it's all a con. So it, it plays because you know, everybody's pretending, but I was just curious how that was for you or how his language has been for you. Has it ever been something to kind of overcome,
4 (1h 8m 46s):
Well, first let me say this. Cause I think you'll find this interesting. I first met mammon on the steps of the Goodman theater. It was like 19. I think I was doing a wonderful ice cream suit at the time at the, at the organic. So it was like 19 72, 73. And I was going back to the Goodman probably to see Bella or somebody like that. And I was going down the stairs. Cause like I said, it was underground. I was going down the stairs and this gentleman's coming up the stairs and he's very Natalie dressed. I remember at the time and I'm dressed like a bomb ticking and he stops me. He goes, excuse me. I just want to let you where he was. My name is David Mamet. I'm a playwright. And I saw thing you've done recently at the organic.
4 (1h 9m 27s):
And I think he really wonderful actor someday. I would love you to perhaps work on one of my projects and I don't know who the hell this guy is. I'm like, yeah, great. Oh, that's cool. Nice to meet you. And that's how we met on the steps of the Goodman. And it was later that he then came to the, he started fighting, trying to fight. It's just a ride back from Vermont where he was teaching was going to start his own company, but he hadn't yet. And now he was trying to go without visiting all the local theaters and liked the organic. So he came to us with the script for American Buffalo, which had never been done at that point, just written. And he said, I'd like to hear it. Would you guys mind reading it? So I was the first person to repeat for him, Jack Wallace, read Donnie, read the owner of the pawn shop in this act of Brian Hickey, read the kit.
4 (1h 10m 12s):
And so we just read it for him. And it was like, you know, going home and asking our opinion. I'm saying, yeah, nice, Mr. Man, we're contemporaries for two weeks apart in age, I said, well, Dave, I think the ending is a little weird, but who knows? But bottom line, he started calling me, using me to do a little bit like, you know, reading stuff at the library, you know, he was starting to get stuff. Then they did sexual perversity in Chicago. Organic did it. We were the theaters to do it. As it turned out, I had, it was a summer thing. And I had already committed to doing the play Lenny. That was the show, the Broadway show Lenny. I was the understudy for Lenny and it was a big paying job, but I couldn't turn it down and it was in it.
4 (1h 10m 56s):
And we weren't obligated to do the summer show with organic because that's when the, the, the company would go their own way. But if you wanted to stay, you could. So I could have done the original production, the sexual perversity in Chicago, but I did, I was already committed that they wanted me to while I was supposed to play that part, the lead part. But it's one of those kinds of things could, would have, should I would've been better off doing that than putting the understudy of Lenny, which I never worked on. Anyway, it turns out because I wound up doing the world premiere of life in the theater for Mamet, a few other things, and then ultimately led to obviously led to Glengarry, which started for me, everything else, him and I, I mean to this day, we're very close and have a lot of fun things together.
4 (1h 11m 41s):
But going back to your question though, what was that thing about the language? Well, okay, well let me put it this way. It's difficult to memorize because he writes a Niambi contaminant. If you were to wear that, you are. No, I wasn't. I mean, because I'm like that stuff, you know, I don't even know how to spell that, but I'll say this as, as, as an acting student going up and reading plays, as you may well know, so many things were set in New York and it was everything was the Bronx this time square and everything was New York and jargon.
4 (1h 12m 22s):
And so many of your playwrights came from there. Or then there was the Southern thing and Tennessee Williams. And when I first read Mamet for me, it was like, oh, this guy writes kind of like I talk, you know what I mean? And he, his ear is kind of like that. It's almost like it's, it's not realistic. It's hyper-realistic he takes almost a vernacular of guys like myself guys, like Jack there's no, there's no, it's no accident. That speed. That speed that American Buffalo, if you get the original script is dedicated to JJ Johnson.
4 (1h 13m 2s):
JJ Johnson is an actor who was, did Glengarry with me on Broadway, all these other things. Again, ex-convict, you know, one of these doms, those guys like Jack Wallace, but these are the guys that Mamet channels, you know, he sees in them that grog, grit, pure talent that they have and re, but he spins it a little bit. These guys don't talk in my head, you know, but if you take that and spin it a little bit, that's what you get. And so for me, it's that vernacular. It's not, it's not unique to host the games, it's in everything he writes.
4 (1h 13m 45s):
And, and that's why you there's no, there's no, ad-libbing, there's no riffing. There's no improv improvising upon it. You play the notes. As they're written, you can twist the notes, you can play it like a jazz musician will take the music out frame. You can extend the thing and do this and that and the other. And that's the difference. That's the difference for me when I see somebody who does Mamet and they're doing it, like, it sounds like, like a typewriter income machine and then somebody else who can hopefully make it sing. And that's
2 (1h 14m 19s):
In
4 (1h 14m 19s):
A way exactly. Right. It's stylized realism. And I always tell acting students, and I'll say, sometimes I've seen guys do it. They'll add a fuck you or something. Cause they think it's cool. And I'll say, no, no, you can't do that. I think, well, yeah, but no, no, there's no button. I says you can't do that. I said, because you got to respect him for what he does. This is what he wrote that a certain way. I mean, in all the years, I've known, I've known him for 40 plus years and worked with many, many times. I think twice I've asked him for days. I think in the movie house, the games. In fact, there's a moment when we leave the Western union place after we con bill Macy out of his money.
2 (1h 15m 1s):
Yeah.
4 (1h 15m 2s):
So Lindsay cross and I are walking down the street and I say aligned to her and he, as he wrote it, it was don't trust anyone and all that. It was a one-time. I gave a suggestion to Dave, one of the few, maybe three times in my career. I said, Dave, I said, I just think Mike May CUSO would say don't trust nobody. Even if it makes no sense. And he stopped for a second and I could tell it was very difficult for him to do it, but he said, okay. So that was my one contribution. Like what contribution? But I think he probably went nobody, anyone, three syllables, two syllables.
4 (1h 15m 49s):
Okay. I guess it's okay. But that's what he was like, but he's, he is so brilliant in what he does, you know? And I'm not saying I, that I even love everything he couldn't or does, but that's okay. I don't love everything Shakespeare wrote either, but it's like, but when he's, when he's on, he's on. And it's like, like Glen, Gary, it took me the longest time to even understand what the hell I was saying and then play. Oh yeah. First of all, I'd never lived in a house. My parents had no money. We always lived in apartments. I didn't know what a lead was. I didn't know about real estate. It was like a foreign language. So once, but once I got into it, once I got on that train, once I, in fact, that's a mythical, not mythical kind of story.
4 (1h 16m 35s):
People know that the opening night of Glengarry in Chicago with the Goodman, I went up on the monologue. I totally went up and there was like a minute pause. And William Peterson was playing Lincoln at the time for Chicago production. And I can see he's trembling. He can't help me. He doesn't have a line. And all I wanted to do was lean over and say, it's okay, bill. It's only a play. Literally that speech was such, such a, you know, it's just a stream of consciousness and I was lost as long. And I only got, I, maybe it was a minute into it. And this is opening night. It's were there for me later.
4 (1h 17m 17s):
He said it was the most exciting moment that theater theaters had in his life because he said, that's when you realize this was the real deal. And I figured, so then I said to myself, fuck fucking. I said, I got to, we're going to be, I can't sit here all night and say nothing. The stage manager yelling the lines and it's still not helping because it's. And so I just cut to the end. I go, hi, my name is Richard Roman, what's yours. And so then I figured now intermission comes and I'm thinking, well, I spent been a nice career. You know, I'll chalk this up to experience. Mammut comes. Backstage runs up to me, hugs me, the director hugs me, Lindsay crosses. And she was, he was married to her. Then she hugs me and I'm thinking, well, fuck, I gotta do the second act. I guess, let me just do it. So, I mean, I blistered the second act.
4 (1h 17m 59s):
I noticed that connect is good. Cause I was so pissed at myself and I made a brief mention of it in the review the next day. And Bubba, thank God. The Boston globe had seen one of the previews and that I think which helped why he wanted the Pulitzer because that's how we won. He had wanted to pull it through before we even got the new Yorker. They knew that he was gonna win. But anyway, well that's the point because, and I use this when I speak to classes about, you can take your lowest moment and turn it into your greatest triumph. If you maybe apply yourself, because what happened is the next day Mamet and the director, Greg took me to lunch.
4 (1h 18m 39s):
Cause now they're a little worried, you know, opening night, the guy one southbound and they started St. Joe, how can we help you look at it? I said, look, boys and mammoth talks about, he always brings it up equals w at that lunch, how I went, look, don't worry about it. I got this. There's nothing you can do to help me. This is on me because I'm not used to, I've never gotten growing up. I was like, I'm cocky. You know, don't fuck with me this shit. So I went back to my hotel room and every night, not every night, but I would write out that monologue longhand just from, just write it out. No, that's how I knew that thing backwards and forwards and backwards because I thought to myself, I was cocky.
4 (1h 19m 22s):
What it was is I had gotten through previews and I still didn't quite understand what I was doing, but I kept thinking, it'll come to me, I'll get it. Like I'm playing the moments, but I don't really get it. And I thought, oh, well now all of a sudden I had to get it. Well, I worked on it, worked out, it worked out the rest of the run went fine. We get to New York. And my, you know, that was a whole other experience I felt, I know I've done it enough times in Chicago, I felt in control. And I knew what the first preview we did. The first preview. We had a lot of young people in the audience when I got to that line, after doing that whole model on, Hey, my name's Richard Roma, what's yours, fucking audience. It gave me such power.
4 (1h 20m 3s):
And that, and that character is that kind of guy anyway. And thank God even the Nan should be understood that Well, Nan was smart enough to make didn't. They didn't make me just look good. They bought me $2,000 suit. And so when I put that suit on a costumer, Ricky, Richard Roma, quickie Roma up in the dressing room, I felt like a Matador going to kill the bull. It was like, I am, you know, nobody's gonna fuck with me tonight. You know? And so when I hit that stage, that was that. And so, you know, winning the Tony, of course that's a whole other story. I mean, it was such a thrill because something I never would have imagined that would have happened, but, but when it did, it was like, again, taking it from the lowest moment I've ever had in the theater that opening night in Chicago to the greatest moment I'd have in the theater for this, with the same role.
1 (1h 20m 57s):
Can you imagine, like, I know we need to end, but I just want to say, like, if you had gone off stage at the end at intermission and said, I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore. It's too scary. I screwed it up. Can, I mean, it just, it's a moment. It's like a split second that separates people who are like, you know what, I'm going to get back up and do this shit again, versus people who let their fear and their whatever get them.
4 (1h 21m 23s):
Well, that's the point. I try to make the students when I talk to them or tell them that story. But for me, I had no plan B I go, what am I going to go, go back to Cicero access for you to become a cop, or you became a criminal. You know, you were wondering, those are your two big choices. There was no bookstores. There may still be for all. I know the only bookstore was in the high school. I mean, I'm not saying it's a stupid town, but it is what it is. It's a blue collar working class town. And so no, I had no alternative. This is, this has got to work or I don't know what, you know, I'm back to square one. And so work. I mean, you know, pans out.
2 (1h 22m 2s):
And it's an interesting thought that may be going up is the way that, cause I've, I'm actually remembering that a couple of times that I've gone up. That's when you end up dropping in more.
4 (1h 22m 14s):
I even learned something once one of the performances of Glengarry in New York. Now we're maybe nine months into the show. Prince and Gardenia was now playing Shelly Levine, wonderful actor, the guy from Mo great, tremendous actor. He's doing one of the Shelly Levine, big speeches. Of course, like this is performance number could be 280, you know? So I'm sitting there listening to him and all of a sudden he goes, then my sister, my sister bought a cow. And I remember when she brought that cow and it was like, I'm like looking at the other actors on stage and we're all like, oh yeah, I've seen, I don't remember any line about a sister in a cow, Gary, and he's going, he's going, yeah, my sister, she brought the cow and then we went out to the woods that he stopped anyway.
4 (1h 23m 9s):
And then he picked up right where we're supposed to continued. And we were all like, fuck we run. I mean, you know, we, we went from kind of lackadaisical, like, you know, this is where to groove to like, what is the world gonna explode anyway. So now we cut to the end of the play. Cause there's no way this was in the second act. It doesn't stop for the place I go, what the fuck? And he goes, oh yeah, well, I went up. But so, you know, the best thing to do when you go up, just go with it, you know, talk about what comes into your mind. And eventually he'll get, I don't like to think of is. I wish I had known that. I wish I had learned that trick in Chicago.
1 (1h 23m 52s):
It's amazing because it is. And we talk a lot about on our podcast, moments of greatest sort of fear or chaos can lead to like mirrors and clarity. And that is an amazing story. Thank you for sharing that with us. And thank
2 (1h 24m 8s):
You for being on this podcast.
4 (1h 24m 11s):
No, this is great. I mean, talking to people like yourselves is kind of, for me, I prefer doing this to talking to the New York times or you get it, you know what I mean? You've been on, we've done it similar paths
1 (1h 24m 24s):
And it sends you a letter that says, will you, will you come with me to my, my high school reunion? Because I'm not really going to do that.
4 (1h 24m 34s):
No, my assistant, my assistant's going to actually make a thing. My daughter convinced them to, to make this like a collage of these things. I literally have about 150. And then we, for all over the country, all over the world, I've been invited to graduations in like Germany and Spain and Holland. And that's great. I mean, it's so sweet, but I get it because often it's saying I'm studying criminology now, or I'm going to go, I want to become in the FBI. I want to do this. That's great. So, you know,
2 (1h 25m 3s):
We didn't even talk about Jim Clemente.
4 (1h 25m 6s):
We can do it again. Look, if you guys want to do it again,
2 (1h 25m 9s):
Let's do it again. Cause I didn't even get the chance to talk about our shared Southern Southern Italian family who moved to the Southwest for mining.
1 (1h 25m 17s):
That's exactly what my family did that. Yeah.
4 (1h 25m 22s):
Have you seen the movie? Wait until spring band Dany? No, it's a movie I did. It's a John. You know, John Fanta is the writer. John Fante well, he's pretty anyway, whatever. He's pretty good. At that time, back in the 1980s, he was really big on going to college kids, especially John font that he wrote the dust. Well, whatever Coppola was going to make one. Anyway, I did the first time they made one of his books into a movie it's called wait until spring band Deni. You ought to check it out because it was foreign produced. It was was myself or Nyla, booty and Faye Dunaway are the stars, but it's about the Southern Italian. I played a Southern Italian guy who moves to Rockland, Colorado to work in the coal mines.
4 (1h 26m 8s):
And then, but then I may a stone Mason. Anyway, you'll see it. It's just what you're talking about.
2 (1h 26m 15s):
I have to have you back.
4 (1h 26m 17s):
I'll be glad to do it again. I
2 (1h 26m 19s):
Really appreciate it. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina
Intro: Gina is co-hostless and doing her best. PLEASE SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and REVIEW you beautiful Survivors!
Interview: SUNY Geneseo, Boston University, Tisch, Juilliard, Playwriting MFAs, competition in writing programs, Marsha Norman, Cry It Out, MAID on Netflix, Hollywood sea changes, female-centered shows, domestic violence, emotional abuse, Hulu, theatre is behind, denial, making mistakes, bad reviews.
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (10s):
And I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school
2 (12s):
Together. We survived it.
1 (14s):
We didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
2 (21s):
Survived theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?
1 (34s):
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. This is Gina. This week. We are sons' cohost, just one host today. I'm missing my better half BAAs. His boss is actually attending to a friend who got terrible health news this week. And she is in her very boss like way being there for her friend and being the amazing person and friend that she is, which is why everybody loves buzz. Anyway, she'll be back next week if you're not. But today we have, honestly, you guys, this is the interview I have been waiting for.
1 (1m 19s):
Molly Smith. Metzler is a writer extraordinaire. You may have heard of her latest project made number three on Netflix entering its 28th day online, which has some very special meaning for Netflix that I hope to know more about one day and previous to me being the showrunner for maid, she also worked on shameless and several other successful television shows. And before that she was a playwright. And actually I got to know her work because I directed a play of hers called cry it out.
1 (1m 59s):
And it was a fantastic experience. And I started communicating with her over email when I was directing. And I was so impressed with the way that she responded to me. I mean, a that she responded to me at all that she was available to me at all. And not something you always get with a playwright and B that she really took her time with her responses and see that her responses ended up being pretty impactful for me, just not necessarily related to the play, but as a person. And I'm a little embarrassed that when I talked to her and I told her the way that she had impacted me, I just started seriously just crying, crying, crying.
1 (2m 45s):
And I was having this thought like, I, this is not a moment I want to be crying. And I'm generally in life. I, I welcomed here as, as a person who struggles to access their emotions. I do. I welcome a good cry, but it not want to be crying to Molly Smith Metzler in this great interview. But you know, it is what it is. If I'm going to be honest, I have to be honest. I can't be choicy about when I'm being myself. That's my, that's my mantra. Recently you have to be yourself in all the ways. Some of those ways are ugly and disgusting and you know, unsavory, and some of them are fine and some of them are be even beautiful.
1 (3m 31s):
So I'm working on embracing the, a mess that I am, but I really think you're going to enjoy this interview with Molly. She's fantastic. Even without the always wonderful presidents, presidents presence, maybe she should be president even without the always wonderful presence of BAAs. We still managed to have a great conversation and actually that whole experience of her at the last minute, not being able to do this and this being the first time we're doing this with one host, turns out to have been a good thing for us to go through, to learn that.
1 (4m 14s):
Yeah, sometimes we're not both going to be available and sometimes when I'm not available, she'll be doing an episode on her own. So, you know, whatever we're growing, changing learning, Hey, we're in 22 countries. Now, if you have a, not a subscribed to this podcast, please do. If you have not rated this podcast or given it a review, please, please, please, please, please, please do it seriously. Please do it, please. I'm begging you. Please do it, but okay. Anyway, here's Molly Smith message.
0 (4m 53s):
Well,
1 (5m 0s):
No problem whatsoever. Fortunately, my partner is Jen. Her very good friend just got diagnosed with cancer yesterday and she's with her right now helping. So she's not going to be able to join us. This is actually the first time we're doing an interview with just me. So we'll see how it goes.
3 (5m 23s):
Yeah,
1 (5m 24s):
It is. And she just, she has a lot of experience with, with cancer. So she's sort of like the first people, first person people call, which is like,
3 (5m 38s):
Yeah,
1 (5m 38s):
Exactly, exactly. But anyway, congratulations, Molly Smith. Metso you survived theater school and you're going to have to clarify for me because it looks like you went to four schools, but you didn't go to four theater schools. Did you?
3 (5m 52s):
I went to four schools. I did. They're not all theater schools, but I went to undergrad, SUNY Geneseo in Western New York and I was an English major. And then I went to Boston university and got a master's in creative writing with a concentration in playwriting. And then I went to Tisch and got an MFA in playwriting dramatic writing. And then I went to Juilliard, which is, you don't really get a degree there. It's called an artist diploma, but it's just finishing school basically.
1 (6m 20s):
Oh, okay. So the decision to, to do the MFA, were you thinking at that time that you, maybe you were going to be a teacher, I'm always curious about MFA's and writing because you know, if you learned what you needed to know and you know, why not just put yourself out there and be a writer?
3 (6m 40s):
I think it's very scary to take that jump. The thing about school that I got addicted to is that I'm actually way too social to be a writer. I like being around other writers and every, and every time you get a graduate program, you're with a bunch of writers and you have deadlines and you kind of, you know, it's a really public way to study writing versus alone in your apartment while way to say, you know, and I kept getting academic support to attend the programs. And so that was part of it. I'm not sure I would have gone deep into debt to get all those degrees, but I think giving me aid, I kept going. Yeah.
1 (7m 16s):
Okay, fantastic. And did you always know from day one that you, I mean, since you were in high school anyway, that you wanted to be a writer that you wanted to write dramatically?
3 (7m 26s):
I always loved writing. I had journals and I'm from a very young age. I love to write, but I had a sort of more academic feeling about it. I thought I was going to get a PhD in English and join the academy and be a professor. And I didn't know, I was creative in the sense of dramatic writing until my senior year of college. When I took a playwriting class, I didn't know I was a playwright. And I also didn't know. I was funny. Those two things emerged at the same time. Wow.
1 (7m 54s):
Oh, so you didn't have experience with theater before then?
3 (7m 58s):
Well, I grew up a ballerina, so I had a great sense of the stage and the relationship between an audience and someone onstage. I really like, I understood light and the power of an audience, but I, no, I didn't grow up a theater nerd at all. I grew up a nerd nerd, like an actual,
1 (8m 18s):
So that must've been like just a whole new, exciting world. Did you decide pretty much right away that you were going to be getting your MFA when you discovered that you liked to play with?
3 (8m 27s):
Yeah, I did. I took this introduction to play right in class and it was one of those things. People talk about this, like in a romantic relationship where you're just like, it changes your whole life. And I didn't have that in a romantic relationship, but I had that with playwriting. One-on-one where, you know, I just, I, it came, I don't want to say easily to me cause it was really easy to play it, but it came, it was like a big release in my life that I arrived at playwriting and loved doing it. And it's like a big jigsaw and you can stay up all night doing it. And I knew from the very first, basically from the first act of a play that I wrote that it's what I wanted to do. I'm very lucky. It was very clear.
1 (9m 5s):
Yeah. Yeah. That is really lucky. So we have talked to almost 60 people now, the majority of them have been actors. So we've really delved deep into like everything about being an actor, especially at the age of undergrad and what that's like to be growing up, you know, just growing up and then trying to figure out yourself well enough to be an actor and all the stuff that comes along with that, including, you know, the competitive best with your cohort. But I imagine that's what it, well, I don't want to imagine what it's like, what is it like with your cohort when you're all writers and you're presumably reading each other's work critiquing each other's work, does it get really competitive?
3 (9m 55s):
I suspect that it can, you know, I feel very lucky cause I have never experienced that directly in a graduate program situation. Part of it is I think I went to really great places where everyone had gotten in was incredibly talented and brought such a unique point of view and voice that none of us were trying to raise the same place. So it was really easy to just support each other. And also it's fun, you know, you're reading it aloud. So if something's in the south, you're trying an accent and it's super bad cause you're a playwright. So I found it, you know, I became close with the other writers and I mean, I'm married. One of them, I call him my husband, he and I were in the same graduate program at Tisch. And there is something beautiful about meeting someone in a writing workshop because you're just sort of naked.
3 (10m 41s):
It's all, you know, I imagine it's like, I understand my actors fall in love too. It's like, you're just so vulnerable and you know, each other in a deep way. But my experience has been that writers are pretty, pretty darn supportive of each other. And if you're not, you kind of don't fit in, like if you're a jerk, if you're competitive jerk, like you're not meant to be a playwright, playwrights need to love people. Cause that's what we do, you know? Yeah.
1 (11m 1s):
Yeah. That's a very good point. Actually, we talked to CISA Hutchinson yesterday and basically said, yeah, isn't she awesome?
3 (11m 8s):
She's in a beautiful inside and out like just, but yeah.
1 (11m 12s):
Yeah. She, and she echoed the same thing in what you're saying. So I guess we're going to stop asking this question about competition. It's just that it's so much of a part of like the act. And I think it's part of just how the program is structured. I mean, you're literally up for the same parts against each other and they PO posted on a wall and everybody shows up to
3 (11m 35s):
Absolutely. And you know, I was at Juilliard where they still cut people. You know, that system has changed a little bit, but I was at the, the version of Juilliard that was structured to drop 10% of the class out. And I feel like you don't get, I don't know. I learned a lot about that cause they cut playwrights as well. And I feel like that doesn't, that doesn't bring forth good creative work from anybody that pressure of, you know, is Sally going to get cut instead of me that's that's, that's not good skills. I don't think
1 (12m 5s):
It's true. And at the same time, like a lot of the people who were cut from our program went on to have better careers than the majority of us. So it's just like not a lot of rhyme or reason to it.
3 (12m 15s):
It's like SNL. Yeah. I mean, yes. It's not a predictor. You got it. Right.
1 (12m 20s):
Exactly. Okay. So you graduated or you've finally finished school with Julliard after doing it for, for a number of years then what happened next? You were, you were married or you're in a relationship and w how did, how do two writers figure out what their next steps are going to be when school's over?
3 (12m 40s):
Well, I don't know how to writers in general would do, but I can tell you how Colin and I did it, which is that we we've never been competitive because we write really different plays. Like I am talking to, you know, especially as a playwright, my, my work tends to, I mean, I've written Boulevard, comedy. It's like, I really like to laugh. My husband's play is everyone's on meth and they're an Appalachian. It's like, we are, we are really young and yang. And, but I think being, I really recommend being married to, or spending your life with another writer, if you are a writer because they get it and they get you in like a deep, deep way. So if you have to stay up to four o'clock in the morning, cause you're inspired and you have to finish the scene, you know, there's, there's just a, there's no jealousy about that.
3 (13m 25s):
There's an acceptance. And our, it really, I think I often say, I don't think I'd be a playwright. Certainly won't be any of the things that I am a mother, you know, like everything is because it's all. And I, I had someone who believed in me more than I believed in myself and at points that is everything because, you know, your play opens in New York, you get just the worst reviews in the world and you take, you know, you'd take to the bed and you don't think you're ever going to write again. And it's so important who you decided to spend your life with because, you know, con only saw me as a writer first and foremost. And you know, it's like at the same goes for him. So we, yeah, but just technically do we have money? You know, we lived in a apartment in Brooklyn that we got to kind of like a hookup.
3 (14m 9s):
My husband was, he managed the bar downstairs, so he knew the guy. And so we got this apartment that we could actually afford, but we both worked full time waiting tables and bartending. And then if I get into the O'Neil, for instance, he would do extra bartending support me being at the O'Neil. And you know, he went up to LA for a few months and did a bunch of meetings and screenwriting stuff. And I supported him with the Juilliard money. Like we just have always worked it out. And for the last handful of years, when we finally don't have to, we can both be working in. It's great.
1 (14m 39s):
Yeah. That's nice that, by the way, that makes so much sense about the difference in your writing because in watching made, you know, I remember getting to the end of the first episode that he wrote and not, not having known throughout the episode that he wrote it and being like, wow, this is really, really different than Molly's writing. And of course it, it was his, and I kind of tend towards that darker stuff too. So yeah. And by the way, the series is fantastic. It is so good. And how you were having such a moment, you're getting great reviews. People are loving. I saw even today, it's number three on Netflix. How are you doing with success? Because people assume that it's all great, but I'm guessing it's not.
1 (15m 23s):
And I'm guessing it's kind of scary too.
3 (15m 27s):
Oh, well this is all pretty, just great. You know, like I think there's probably two things that are tricky about it, which I'll tell you in a second, but the fact is, it's just, it's great. Especially because it's made, you know, made is the closest to play writing. I've done for the screen. I see the show as 10 individual plays and it's really just about cleaning and feelings. It's the most character driven thing I've seen on TV in a long time. There's no murder. There's no cool accents. We're not in Hawaii. It's just about one woman's cleaning and feelings. And every time we turned in an episode, I thought Netflix would call and be like, you know, this is too weird.
3 (16m 9s):
Like the couch can't eat her. That's just too weird, you know, but they let me make this like, you know, artistic, I think like they're beautiful thing. And I didn't really believe that they were going to air it. And then I didn't really believe that people were going, gonna watch it. And so the fact that the fact that it is exactly what I wanted it to be and people love it. It's very, I don't really, I think it's really exciting just as a writer, it's exciting. It's like, oh, maybe we can return to doing harder things on the screen and on the stage again, you know, I think audiences weren't deterred by the fact that it was difficult, you know, they leaned in. And so I feel like it's really, it's mostly just fantastic.
3 (16m 49s):
I am surprised that people love it this much, but no, I'm just, I'm so proud of it. So it feels great. That's all there is. Do it.
1 (16m 57s):
What were the, you said there you'll tell me about the two things that have been challenging.
3 (17m 1s):
Yes, it is challenging. I, and I know you'll relate to this, but coming up in the theater, there are so many of us that, that are just working hard and waiting tables and waiting for a break. And that was me as well. And you want to help every single one of those people and you want to help every single one of those people whose cousin is also in LA. So like, that's the part that's really hard for me is that I can't, I can't do for everyone. And I want to, and especially theater people, like if you, if someone sends me a cold email that the subject is like a MF playwright, like I read it and then I, you know, I, I can't help it.
3 (17m 42s):
So that's a little hard cause I want to be good to everyone. And, and can't so that's, that's hard for me. And the other thing that's just hard is, you know, I spend my life in sweatpants and now suddenly have to do a bunch of stuff where I look, I have to look very, you know, Like, you know, writers or writers were writers for a reason. And so, so suddenly I have to like I to buy lipstick. And so that part of it is a little being articulate. Like next to Margot, Robbie is very difficult for me, but
1 (18m 14s):
I didn't realize until just today that she was the producer. So she's, she's the person who optioned the book.
3 (18m 20s):
So she and John Wells got the book together. John Wells is a very famous producer. He did west wing ER, and shameless, which is how I know him. I worked in my last four seasons of shameless is a writer on the show. So when he and Margo got the book, LA had just done cry it out, it was cried out, was up like, like had just closed when they got the book and it's a play about moms. And I think they were like, oh, we know a person who writes about moms and they handed me the book. It was so kismet.
1 (18m 49s):
Wow. That's fantastic. And, but you had to, I mean, I read the book too. You had to create a whole narrative. That's not in the book. So how does that, I'm curious about that process and how it works. Is it that you kind of sit down as the show runner and hatch a basic idea that you, that you then have some writers help you with or do you have to outline all of the stories and everybody else just writes them? Or how does it work?
3 (19m 20s):
Well, it's a, it's a little bit different with every project. Oh, I'm with a story like made, you know, whenever the memoir I learned so much, like it was, it's really an educational tool and I didn't want to sacrifice any of that. On the other hand, when you go and sit down with your husband or wife and Saturday night to watch Netflix, you don't want to lecture and you don't want to like TV, shouldn't taste like TV, shouldn't taste like broccoli, right. It should taste like it should be a sneak attack. Kind of like my plate is like, I like to sneak people into learning something. So I knew kind of off the bat that that made was an incredible engine, the memoir, and that I wanted all the takeaway to be the same. But I also knew that we were going to have to create a lot of story to do that.
3 (20m 1s):
So to answer your question, when I first said I would do the book and when we were taking out and pitching it to Netflix, pitching it to HBO, you know, all the places I would have to say, this is what I'm going to do. You know, we're gonna, we're going to do 10 episodes. Her mom's going to be a huge character. Her dad's got a huge character. We're going to really build up. Sean. We're going to get to know some of the people in the houses we're going to get to know Regina, she's an invented character, but this is how she'll structure in the plot. And you really have to know the nuts and bolts of what you're going to do. And the tone of it, like it's kinda like giving a 45 minute presentation on what the show will be. And then hopefully someone like Netflix is like, okay, great. Here's, here's a green light and get your writer's room. So then you hire a handful.
3 (20m 42s):
If you're lucky, you know, I could, I didn't have any, no one told me what to do. I got to hire whoever I wanted. And I hired only four writers, three of whom are playwrights, three of whom. I'm sure. You know, cause it's Colin, Becca bronzer, Marcus Garley so really accomplished playwrights. And then Michelle, Denise Jackson, who is not a playwright, but should be like, she's an honorary playwright, you know? And so w and then the five of us sit down and we take what I've said, you know, about the show, the 45 minute presentation, and we flush it out. What are we doing in every episode? What does this look like? And that, that process in the writer's room is the closest, you'll get to a table read in the theater, you know, where you're just at the table, you're reading that play.
3 (21m 24s):
And then you talk about it for, you know, nine days. That's a writer's room is that every day. So it's very, very, very cool experience and everyone's sharing secrets and, and we disagree sometimes and we do puzzles and there's a lot of talk about lunch.
1 (21m 43s):
That's what everybody says.
3 (21m 47s):
But also what was cool that mean is that these five, these four writers and me, the five of us, we all really connected to different things in the memoir. And we also, all of us come from all of us can relate to the memoir in different ways. And so you get five different perspectives on something. And I think, you know, Becca brown center did so much of the writing of Regina, and I think she could really connect to Regina. And, you know, that character would not feel quite as beautifully drawn if Becca weren't in the writers room. Like, so, so much of it is it's a dinner party. And the result of that dinner party is character. You know? So it's really, it's the most important thing you do is those writers.
1 (22m 26s):
That is okay. So I also just learned that today that you didn't write that Regina monologue, because, and this is about my own projection that when I'm watching it, I'm going, oh my God, this is so similar to Claire, Claire. Is that the name of the character and cry it out. That lives up high, up on the hill.
3 (22m 45s):
Oh, Adrian. Adrian.
1 (22m 47s):
Yeah. Thank you. Sorry. I was thinking, I was thinking, it sounded like an Adrian, my likes. So that's fascinating that, that,
3 (22m 53s):
Well, let me explain one further thing, which is, so that's how the show gets written. And yes, Becca brown said, I wrote that monologue, but the other thing that the show runner does is it is my job to then go through all 10 episodes and make sure it sounds like one person wrote them. And, and so the showroom, so you kind of divide the writing in the room and then all funnels back to me and I rewrite it or fix things. Or sometimes, you know, sometimes you're doing a major rewrite sometimes you're just like with Regina monologue, it was so beautiful. You know, we, we had to cut a couple of things for production, but like, it's, it's back as work. And, but it's, that's what TV writing is. It's like, there'll be stuff that Becca wrote in episode seven that she didn't write, or, you know, like TV is very collaborative and then it all funnels through the showrunner who does a pass to make sure it's, it's up to the standard that I want.
3 (23m 44s):
It's totally what I want. You know, it is, it is a writing job as a group, and then it is ultimately one person's writing job it's book. Does that make sense?
1 (23m 51s):
Yeah, it does. And thank you so much for answering that question because I have always wondered. And also even on television shows that have, have a different director, every episode, I'm always thinking, how are they keeping true to the tone, but not now, now I understand it. Well, I have so many things to ask you. I want to talk to you about just one thing is that you have said that you love writing about class, which is a big part of made and your, and your place. But, so I want to talk a little bit about that, but I also kind of want to talk maybe first about the thing that you said you were surprised that people like to made, and I've heard a lot of female writers express, something like that.
1 (24m 36s):
I'm surprised. And maybe people just say it in a way as, as you know, not, not trying to try to be humble. Right. Okay. But I believe that you are surprised by it because it does seem like a kind of recent thing that the universe is allowing us to tell women's stories and having them at the forefront. I mean, it seems really pretty recent. And so are you, do you feel like this is you're part of a big sea change in terms of what's being represented on screen?
3 (25m 7s):
You know, absolutely. I was talking to Netflix yesterday and they said last year it was Bridgford, you know, these are a lot of things, but they were saying last year, people, the surprise was everyone loved Britain and love Queens gambit. And this year one loves squid game and loves made, which cracks me up. But, but they think to be in the same sentence as Queens gambit as the limited series. I mean, I think that's so exciting as a female writer, because she was an alcoholic kind of like piece of crap who was amazing at chess and went on this like beautiful arc that was not traditionally feminine. It was usually that's a man, like that's usually a male going through that and were riveted by his addiction and his dysfunction and made his, you know, I think we're continuing what Queens gambit did as well.
3 (25m 50s):
Like it's, you know, Alex has a lot of things, but she's not a woman. She is a character going through an arc and she makes a ton of mistakes and she, you know, is a product of where she comes from. And that is enough to carry a show. And I feel like that is it you're right. It's so recent. And I therefore assumed it would be treated like a, you know, like a niche, you know, maybe 500,000 people will watch it kind of like, cause we don't show up for those shows, but all of a sudden we really show up for those shows and we want to see a multidimensional and rich and layered woman at the story of her own dance story. It's really like exciting.
3 (26m 31s):
It's exciting.
1 (26m 33s):
That's what I think about stuff like this. I just imagine, you know, the people who are traditionally in charge of these things, I just mentioned it, but I imagine a bunch of guys sitting around being like, can you imagine people really want to hear about these dang? I mean, I feel like it must be a surprise to, to sort of the old guard that, you know, because of course everything does have to be motivated about what's going to be a return on your investment. And that, that that's understandable. It's I'm not saying anybody's bad for that, but it is curious to me that there was just this, there was an assumption that if you made a female centered show, nobody would want to watch it.
1 (27m 16s):
Except for every time they make a female centered, anything people want to watch it. Why is this keep being a surprise?
3 (27m 24s):
I think it's going to stopping a surprise pretty soon because this cracked me up. But my friend was doing a pitch yesterday at Hulu. And I guess like the conversation kind of organically came up with like, well, what's our main, you know, like what's the, you know, the producer was in it, but like, you know, people are starting to look for the, the queen scam, but you know, trying to look for the female, you know, the unconventional sort of what's the would be a surprising female story. We're starting to like, not only are we starting to have it at the table, that the market is the, market's starting to recognize that we're going to get eyes on the screen and it's, you know, I shouldn't be so surprised by made.
1 (28m 5s):
Right. Right. And it helps that we have people like Margot, Robbie and Reese Witherspoon and females who are having more of a say about what gets produced, you know, with what, what books get optioned and then what gets produced.
3 (28m 17s):
Absolutely. And, and more and more women are taking those jobs and taking those positions. And it's a good, it's a sea change. I also dare say, I think TV and film has ahead of it than theater. I have to say, I think
1 (28m 29s):
Girl, that's another thing I was going to say. Cause you had a quote in something I read theater is behind theater is so behind and this is, unfortunately it came as a surprise to me. Like when I woke up to the fact that theater is so behind, it was sad and it also doesn't make sense. It also, you know, it should be it's, it was 40 years ago. It was the most progressive part of art, I think.
3 (28m 55s):
Yeah. Well the theater doesn't treat women as, as minority voices and they have, and like that's, what's so crazy is we've, you know, I think we've carved out space for there's so much equality and, and like, it's exciting to see the programming in theaters change. And like it's not just white men anymore. That's all, that's very, very exciting. But heterosexual women stories that mother's stories about our struggles stories about, you know, me and my friends, there's no space for us on the New York stage. There's no space for my friends and I on the New York stage. And I feel like, and then, you know, you don't go up in New York, then you don't go all across the regions.
3 (29m 36s):
And I think a great example is actually cried out because that had a huge regional presence because I think people are starved for players like that, that are about women and just, you know, and not women on Mars and not, not necessarily, you know, like it just normal women, women having, you know, the Wendy Wasserstein plays of today are not produced in New York. And it's, it's a, it's a huge issue I think.
1 (30m 0s):
Yeah, yeah, it is. So, okay. So the other thing is that you love to write about class, which I find fascinating. I love to read about it in any case, what is your personal connection to your fascination with that issue?
3 (30m 17s):
Well, I think I grew a group of the Hudson valley, the daughter of two teachers. So, you know, I, I, I can't relate to made, for instance, in the sense of, I always had food and I always had a certain amount of like structure and S and security, but I, my parents were incredibly well educated and they kind of like my dad went to Cornell and it was sort of something we heard a lot about, even though we didn't kind of grow up in a moneyed area or money to house, there was a sense of, there was a sense of you could scholarship your way into the next strata. And I think that I find that fascinating because it's just not true. I, it's almost impossible.
3 (30m 59s):
It's almost impossible to change your class in America. And it's, it's, I feel like those walls are getting higher, not lower. And I watch people through everything they have at, at, at those chances to change, you know, change their stripes. And I just think the way we, we work in this country is we it's, we've made that harder and harder. There is no bootstrap narrative there. It does. There's no bootstraps it doesn't, it's not a thing in this country. So I find that fascinating because I felt very jipped. You know, I felt like I worked very, very hard and like I was always getting A's and being sophisticated and like, I couldn't graduate and get a, you know, a little studio in New York and intern at a publishing house.
3 (31m 42s):
You know, like a lot of my friends who came from money could, and there's just, it's so ingrained in our culture and it makes me mad and it's not, you know, it's not fair. Especially when I had a child and started thinking about cried out and just the way we treat that money directly affects maternity leave in this country too. And like, I can't compete with somebody who has a trust fund, you know, I had to put queer where I could afford her. And it's just bullshit that you can claw your way out of the class that you're born into. It's it's extremely rare. So I love that
1 (32m 16s):
It's bullshit and it's really dangerous cause it makes people feel so inadequate when they can't, you know, and that, that's also a great scene. I think it's in the first episode. Yeah. It's in the first episode when she goes and she's talking to the social worker and she's saying, so I can't get a job because I don't have a daycare and I can't get daycare cause I don't have a job. So I have to get a dog to prove that I didn't deserve daycare. I mean, it's, it's also
3 (32m 40s):
Backwards. Yeah. You're at a humongous disadvantage. If you are born into, you know, if you're born into poverty, you're at a humongous disadvantage in this country and it's like getting worse. That's the other thing is it's not, I mean, I have to leave. That's part of why made is, is touching so many people's sense of justice too. It's like, oh yeah, it's getting worse. Like, why aren't we talking about this? It's you know, Alex and I are, are not facing the same problems. And it's just by where I was born and where she was born and you know, you what family, your brand and who dictates so much of your struggle.
1 (33m 17s):
Yeah. And, and that, that the sort of historical narratives would have you believe that it's, it's the opposite of that and that, and that everybody left England to get away from that. But then yeah, just creative things I think here. So another thing that I heard or read that you said that really took my breath away is you said that when you became a mother, your, you didn't say your resolve for your career. You, the phrase that I that's sticking out to me, as you said, I went from being the secretary of my own company to the CEO. And it just, that just really like hit me in the center of my chest.
1 (33m 58s):
Can you just say a little bit more about it? What, what you meant by that?
3 (34m 3s):
Sure. I think that we'll probably like probably like many women when they become moms. I, I was frustrated that I had, I had this thing that I was good at, that I had studied for so many years that I've given so much time and love to my playwriting career and that it did not love me back in the sense that I could not afford to take core to a music class, you know? And it made me very, it made me very frustrated that, you know, I, I had devoted my, my self to this, this field that I had a passive relationship with. Like I was waiting for someone to call and tell me they were going to do a reading or, you know, or I was waiting for my career to start.
3 (34m 50s):
And I think what happened when I had, when I had Cora was I, I wanted to provide for her. And I also wanted to, I wanted to show her that you could be tough and you could be an active participant in your career like that. I didn't have to wait for it to happen. And so part of it was, I was, I just kind of said the things we all want to say out loud as a women, but I actually said them, which was like, Hey agents, what the F I am funny and talented. I want to work in TV. I want to take a music class with my daughter. What do I have to do to do that? And I you'd be shocked. I think how freeing and wonderful it is to just stand up for yourself and to make demands. And, you know, and I wanted to, I wanted to take an expensive music class with my daughter and I wanted to have a career.
3 (35m 32s):
And I was like, I'm not going to wait for it to happen because I know if someone gives me a chance I'm going to do, I'm going to go far in this field. Like, cause I don't know. Does that make sense? So I kind of like, wait, I said, waiting for the phone to ring and started making the calls.
1 (35m 45s):
Yeah. And also what I'm hearing is you stopped just blindly participating in the myth that everything can only work a certain way, which I feel like is something that we can all relate. I mean, it's something that boss and I talk a lot on this podcast about like just making so many assumptions about what, what we're definitely not entitled to have and what we're, you know, let's definitely for other people and not for us without ever once actually saying that out loud or asking for what we want. And actually yesterday chiefs have said the exact same thing. She said she, she was trying to be humble and say it's because she doesn't know how the system works. So she didn't know, she couldn't ask which you know. Okay. Maybe, but it's very inspiring to hear that.
1 (36m 29s):
Now you could just decide what you want to do with your life and your career. You could decide that you want to have a work-life balance and then have it.
3 (36m 37s):
Yeah. And you know, I think actors have this too. We are always waiting for the phone to ring. And at a certain point, I think that's a really tough way to be a mom because you can't count on anything and you're spread so thin. And I'm just kinda like, no, I'm going to generate, I'm going to generate this. And I can't really define the moment, but I will say for me it was emotional. I, I stopped, I stopped letting theater. Tell me how to feel about myself a little bit theater. I mean, it's a little bit like the terrible boyfriend that you just can't leave. Right. Like I would be like, I would be like, here's my new play. Do you love it? And they'd be like, maybe, you know, maybe we'll do a reading of it.
3 (37m 19s):
And I'd be like, let's my full heart. And I love you. And then, you know, and I finally like kind of broke up with that boyfriend in the sense that like, no, I'm really good at this. And like, I'm going to go where the love is. And I'm going to figure out how to pay my bills doing this and maybe you'll miss me and come back. You know, you know, it's hard as an artist, you can't let someone else tell you what your worth is. And theater is very conducive to that.
1 (37m 40s):
Yeah. Oh my God. That's so true. And that's, by the way, like a big part of the character of Alex, she does that too. I mean, she, with not that much to leverage did still find a way to just be very active about asking for what she wants. And I can see what you're saying about how, how having a kid makes that very clear. Whereas maybe you don't feel so I'm entitled to ask for what you want when it's just you, but when you know that it's somebody else who's depending on you, then it's that it doesn't feel like you're asking for yourself. It feels like you're asking for your family.
3 (38m 15s):
Yeah. And you see injustice with fresh eyes when you have a child, you know, because I don't know. I feel, I feel like certainly in my case, I w I would, I was so focused on being a good collaborator, being polite, being like, you know, you know, being grateful for the breadcrumbs that I got, you know, in my life. And I mean, honestly, it was a professional change, but it was primarily an emotional change. I was like, yeah, I don't want breadcrumbs anymore because my daughter deserves better than breadcrumbs. And so it just sort of filtered across all the fields, but yeah, another had does that.
1 (38m 50s):
Yeah, it does. It does well. So I don't know if I ever told you this, the reason I was looking through our emails earlier, as I wanted to see if I, I was sure I had said this thing to you, that I can not find in my email. So I'm going to say it to you now, which is that when I was directing your play, I wrote to you just about some things that I wondered if we could change. And you gave me the most thoughtful responses, which was, is to say you didn't invalidate that I was asking you, but you still stood up for what you, for the integrity of the play. I feel like I'm going to cry. I never saw anybody do that before.
1 (39m 36s):
And it was a really great, I wish I wasn't crying as I started to say this to you, but it was a great thing to, it was a, you were a great role model for me in that moment. And I always appreciate that. So thank you.
3 (39m 52s):
Oh, Tina, thank you. Well, you know what, thank you for wanting to have a conversation with me about it. Cause like I also think that's the sign of a fantastic director that you let me into your process and your thoughts about it. And I know you did a fantastic job with the play cause I had Scouts in that area who saw it and you know, so whatever you were, whatever you were working with, you artistically, you certainly landed that ship for you. You know, landed that plan beautifully.
1 (40m 15s):
Thank you. I had, and I had so much fun doing it. So tell me about some of your mentors. We had a nice discussion the other day about the power of mentors and some people go kind of through their whole training and never really feel like they connect with a mentor. Did you have mentors along the way?
3 (40m 35s):
Yes. I'm very lucky. Actually. I'm very lucky. I'm sure most people who go to Julliard and say this, but I, in my case, it's, it's really, really true that Marsha Norman was a wonderful mentor to me. I met her at Tisch and Tisha's a funny place because it's a larger program. You know, you don't have that. One-on-one with your professors that you do with Juilliard where there's just a handful of you, but, and I didn't stand out at Tisch. I sort of, my husband was, you know, my husband's sort of the star over player at, in class and I hadn't found my voice and I was sort of, I just wasn't like the star student and she was, she saw something in me and I don't think she saw like a Polish playwright yet, but she saw, I think there's just, she saw a way to help me find my voice.
3 (41m 18s):
And she hired me as her assistant coming out of that MFA program. And I always think like it was sort of charity work because she didn't need an assistant. She was so on top of her life. But I think she wanted to let me hang out with her and see how she conducted her business. So she was working on law and criminal intent. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was on set with her. I get to do research with her, for the scripts. She was doing the color purple and I got to go to rehearsal usually just to bring a coffee that I could watch. And it was, you know, she's also a mother and I don't know it was really, it, it was so generous of her because I got, I just got to see that you, what a woman in power looks like and, and a woman on her voice.
3 (41m 59s):
And she also says no a lot. And I grew to really respect that. Especially later when I became a mom, but you don't F with Marsha. I mean, she'll shut stuff down. She's really, I mean, she's such a generous person here. She did this thing for me, I'm a total stranger, but she's also like she knows her worth. So I was very grateful. It's been those years with her. And then, and then she invited me to Julliard. And then when I was ready really gave me, I mean, Juilliard is so much pressure. And the thing about Julia is you have to know what your voice is to go there. And so it's almost like she was helping me find my voice. And then when I found it gave me this incredible opportunity to go to Julliard. So sh honestly like very, very good to me in such a mentor in a very lucky.
3 (42m 41s):
And then on the west coast, I've had a wonderful mentor in John Wells because he, he's just one of the most terrific showrunners and producers, but it's funny cause I, everybody knows that that's not a secret in LA, but to work for him as a writer and to be in his writer's room. I learned so much from him about how to empower the people around you. How did it become like, you know, there's so many toxic writing rooms and toxic jobs with my friends, tell me, and it sounds terrible, but everyone at a John Wells show is thrilled to be there and very lucky to have that job. And they know it and like just that there's a way to do things gracefully. So he, and, and then he got this book and handed it to me and gave me my first chance to be a show runner.
3 (43m 23s):
So I had a, I've been very lucky to have him as a mentor on this coast
1 (43m 28s):
And the toxic. I've heard a lot of stories too, about toxic writers' rooms. And maybe that's also something that's going to get phased out because like so many of these things, you just, you just need more samples. You need, you know, you need more samples in your dataset so that, you know, I mean, if 99% of everything is run in one certain way, then there's little, there's little chance that it's going to change. But when, when the tide starts to shift, maybe there's a little, few more samples in your dataset that show, well, you can just be a regular nice person and still get the same, you know, get the same job done. That's that's nice to hear.
3 (44m 9s):
Yeah. Yeah.
1 (44m 12s):
So dah, dah, dah, oh, one, another favorite line from made is when Alex is talking to her dad about, I think this is, might be at the last episode or near then. And she says, she's trying to tell him that her or her, whatever boyfriend abused her and her, father's not taking it in. And she says, do you hear the words that are coming out of my mouth right now? That was another thing that really hit me because, you know, denial is really not a passive thing. Like you have to work pretty hard at defending your denial on something.
1 (44m 56s):
And I'm really familiar with saying something that feels, you know, that's a truth for me to people who, I mean, act as if you're, you know, like you're invisible and that turns out to be a really shaping force in a lot of people's lives. And you know, so anyway, I'm just curious about your own relationship and experience with denial.
3 (45m 22s):
Well, I love that you love that moment because I remember with that scene feeling like something was missing. And I remember, you know, I know a lot of it denial, but what I really know a lot about is gaslighting and denial is a form of gaslighting where you're just like, I'm, I'm not going to acknowledge a reality. And you know, I learned this tool a few years ago from a fantastic therapist that like, it's okay to just pause and be like, but you actually are hearing me, right? Like this is English. And you understand these words like, and I've, I've actually tried that tool in my life and steal at someone, not, not like, not be able to confirm that they're hearing the words.
3 (46m 3s):
And so it was when I, and then when I put it in the scene that it felt like, oh, that's what was missing is just this, like, how far are you going to take this denial? And he still can't write. I mean, I think Billy might nod, but he doesn't say anything. Like, I think gaslighting in denial and emotional abuse, I mean, I could write 40 Marsha was about this. I am fascinated by it. And the thing we don't talk about it as a form of abuse. And we should, it's like weirdly I think as well as violent, if not more violent than physical abuse, because you don't realize it's happening like Alex in the pilot, she doesn't know she's a victim of abuse and she is such an, a victim of abuse, which I hope we demonstrate in the show that you have to go on that ride with her, but you know, it's so corrosive and there's nothing worse than having someone tell you what what's real is not real day after day, year after year.
3 (46m 56s):
Like this is an area that I know a lot about I sent you do to
1 (47m 1s):
Yes. And actually my kind of where I put my energy in terms of recovery is with codependency and denial and codependency, or just, I mean, that's, that's the it's denial is the perfume of codependency. It's just, it's everywhere. And what I think really gets triggered for people who want to keep pretending, like they hear the words you're saying is because I find this in my family, like the way that denial really shows up in my family is if I acknowledge a truth, that's too true. I think what happens to other people is they feel that if they even just validate that that's my truth, that that somehow means that they have to acknowledge it for their own selves and their own lives.
1 (47m 51s):
And that's really like the forbidden thing that, you know, that people who don't want to go there can't do, they can't, it's like the Pandora's box. If I start to look at, you know, if I acknowledge that, what you're saying about this is true, then I can't help, but start to acknowledge all of the other things as well.
3 (48m 9s):
I think what you just said is, is brilliant because I think people think denial is just inactive, but it's aggressive. It's so aggressive. It's really violent, you know, intense denial that gaslighting of like, I will not even acknowledge. I hear the words you're saying it's, it's, it's so active. It's I mean, it's so aggressive. What you said was really, really smart really. Right. Yeah. And I love the people. I love the people are flipping out about Hank with me. Like how does he just sit there and let Sean treat her like that? And like, you know, and that's what I mean, I think she's mistreated throughout the show, but I think what Hank does to her in that moment with the denial is, is I think a lot of us recognize that.
1 (48m 49s):
Yeah. And I really appreciate the w the way you rolled out this whole concept of emotional abuse, because even I who feel like I've spent so much time working on this stuff, and I was a therapist, even I was found myself being like, oh, he didn't hit her. You know, she left, he didn't hit her. Hmm. I really had to check that in myself. And I was because one of the things that denial, I mean, in the absence of act, you know, saying you're wrong or whatever, and it's just, I don't hear you. You just assume that what you're saying, isn't valid, it's it becomes this thing that you do to yourself where you, you know, if somebody invalidates you enough, you start to invalidate yourself.
1 (49m 38s):
So I loved how you rolled that out in the series that are people talking to you a lot about that.
3 (49m 45s):
Yes they are. And how about in episode eight, where you are like, oh, Sean's changed and he's turned around and he's going to be a carpenter, you know? And like you it's in you, you find yourself. Or at least I did. And I assume it seems like audiences to just kind of like, oh, maybe this is a happy, love story. Like maybe he like, you know, and, and that, you know, that is all by calculated manipulative writing that I like my secret agenda with me. It was, you know, and I claimed 10 hours cause I wanted, I wanted the audience to go on the actual experience of that cycle and to get thrown off by it and caught up in it like, oh my gosh, I'm back, I'm back. And I'm in the pit, how did this happen?
3 (50m 26s):
And I wanted to show you how it happened. I also was like, I dare you to wash made and tell me that that's not domestic violence because it is emotional abuse is violent. It, what happens to her is violent. So that was like my secret mustache totally goal with the show.
1 (50m 43s):
Yeah, no, it, it hit, it totally played. And, and I think the other thing that's great about that is that when we have seen depictions of violence against women in film, I mean the best we could entail television, the best we could have hoped for is some woman who's abused who isn't a total idiot, because mostly what it is, how it's portrayed is some dumb person who doesn't, who's too dumb to know she's being abused. So therefore she goes back and also the various, the subtle, wow. I don't know if it's settled, but the, the subplot with the first roommate that she has when she goes to the, not roommate, but you know, the woman who lives in the shelter with her who introduces her to, you know, how, how to do life there.
1 (51m 31s):
I love I, that was heartbreaking her story of, because it is that you, you, you, yes, in the audience were saying, yeah, maybe sh maybe Sean is a good guy. Maybe, maybe all he really needed was to sober up and become the good person he was meant to team.
3 (51m 50s):
Yep. I mean, it's funny. I did an interview yesterday where this gentleman was like, is Sean okay? Like, does he end up okay. In life? And, and I, and I found myself sort of being like, I've never really thought of that cause he, you know, he's fictional, but I, I don't know. I'm not sure that that guy is ever going to make it out of that trailer, you know? And I'm not sure that he's going to get sober and be a great dad. I'm not. But I do feel like when he says at the end, I'm going to get sober and come see her all the time. I don't believe him. And, and I think that's his TV show, right? That's his cycle that he has to break. But my goal was to show that he's caught in his own cycle too.
3 (52m 29s):
Like, we are all kind of caught in our own cycles and it's so hard to break, you know, an Alex barely makes it out. And most women and men in her situation, the show ends in episode eight under the, in the pit. Most people don't get out of the pit and she is so smart and driven that she can, but she's the exception and not, she's a great exception. Yeah.
1 (52m 53s):
Yeah. Yeah. So we're, I want to be honoring your time. I told you we're only going to talk for an hour, but, but before we begin to wrap up, I just want to ask you, so since we've spent a lot of time talking about your success, let's hear about some of your failures. What have been some mistakes that you've made, maybe, maybe you maybe even like when you, when you made first, the transition from playwriting to writing and Hollywood, what were some of the mistakes that you made along the way?
3 (53m 23s):
Well, I, I think the, one of the great learning opportunities I've had as a human being, not just as a writer, was my first big production as a playwright in New York. And it was, you know, I was barely out of school and I felt I'm just so grateful for the opportunity. You know, it was a big production with stars in it and fancy director and everyone there was fancy except me and the process I have to say kind of went that way, like, like, huh, there's this element of it's actually, it's when I play close up space is about a dad and a daughter. It's about grief and pain and there's a lot of magical realism and I'm sure it's far from the perfect play, but it got obliterated by the press and squarely blamed on me the most inexperienced person in the production.
3 (54m 11s):
But what I learned from it is that I knew things about it were wrong. I knew immediately things about the production were wrong and I didn't use my voice. I didn't, you know, what happened with the play is my fault. I didn't, I didn't ring the bell. I didn't say, well, I didn't refuse the rewrites. Like I, you know, and everybody there had good intentions. Everybody wants to have a hit play, but people saw it a different way than I did. And, and it was wonderful people. There was no reason why I couldn't have said, Hey, yo, this isn't what I wrote. And I really, it was a crushing blow to have that play go so badly and to, to get such her, I mean, if you went for that and just Google it, it's the worst reviews. It's like, one of the, one of the reviews was like, is she sleeping with the director?
3 (54m 53s):
Like, why did she even get this product? You know, it's just straight on misogyny. I mean, it was, it was so mean, but what it taught me was I, since that moment I've really listened to my gut. And if my gut says this isn't right, I say it, and I don't worry about how it's going to come across. It sounds like I did that with you, but I have my sense of like, no, and, and it, and I learned the hard way in that moment that nothing is more important than your own gut. And so, and, you know, kind of re I had like a, kind of, a lot of momentum as a playwright really stop that momentum. It sent me into a deep depression. I mean, the, I lost so much because I didn't listen to my voice.
3 (55m 36s):
So that was my big theater lesson, which is applied to everything. But the big mistake I've made in TV to film, I've actually been really, really, really lucky and worked with fantastic people. But I think that stuff can go sideways here. It's a, it's a funny town, you know, and I've worked with wonderful people, but once in a while, you know, something's happening and then it just disappears. And so, you know, like that, you're gonna, you know, I, right before me and I came so close to having another job that I really wanted and was passionate about, it would have been my first time kosher running something, show running something, and, you know, we were all but celebrating.
3 (56m 21s):
And then the whole thing fell apart because the actress wanted her friend to write it and like bull, bull, crap. Like that happens all the time in LA. And so it's a hard time. It's a hard lesson the first time, you know, where I was like, oh, people don't, you know, like my agent sent me champagne. Like it was, it was happening. And then it very suddenly wasn't. And so I think it made me realize that don't pop the champagne until the contract is signed
1 (56m 51s):
And put that on a t-shirt.
3 (56m 57s):
That was a tough lesson to learn though, because I was like, wait, oh my God. Like, I went from like sky high to, and you know, nobody really, nobody apart, it was just very sobering. So,
1 (57m 7s):
And writing is so personal that it's really hard not to take both the criticisms to heart and then the, the opposite of the criticisms. And, you know, it's, it's hard not to make it. It's hard to stop making it about personal validation. You know, when, when somebody likes or doesn't like your stuff. Yeah. That's the journey I'm on right now. Not making it about, you know, like if somebody didn't like my play doesn't mean they don't, it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they like me.
3 (57m 40s):
Yeah. You know, that's, I'm glad you're learning that because I also can tell you, I just staffed a writing room for the first time. And so that experience was really opening because I read unbelievably fantastic things and I didn't meet with them because, you know, you're designing a dinner party with five people and you kind of have to, and like you, the truth is, like I said, I passed on a lot of wonderful writers whose work I freaking loved. And like, can't wait to read for the next thing and have mentioned and recommended to other people. And that's part of it is like, you don't know how people are experiencing your work and the fans that you're building along the way. And I think we quickly assume the worst. Right? I know I do. But like, but the fact is like, you don't, you don't know how close you got it.
3 (58m 24s):
My guess is you're getting close to stuff and you don't know. And aren't able to know that
1 (58m 29s):
At the end of the day, the only thing you have control over is whether or not you go back to your computer later that day and just keep writing.
3 (58m 36s):
Yeah. You got to run, run your own race, which is so hard to do. I mean, listen, it really, really is. But yeah. The only thing you, the only thing you can control is your output true. Which is horrible. I mean, I, I, for the first time, in two years that don't have anyone calling me today to be like, where are the pages? You know? Like, I mean, part of it too is it's, it's helpful when you have deadlines and pressure. That's why I love to grad school because I'm the second Monday of October, I was reading my play out loud. And so I had to go right. You know, make sure I write it. So I also feel like that's, without that, it's also, that's a hard thing about feeling like you're not moving forward too, is that lack of deadlines.
3 (59m 19s):
But again, you don't, you don't, you don't know how far your work is going and how who's reading it and what it will lead to the next time. And I mean, I've gotten, I've gotten rejected on so many things that have led to a meeting later, you know, like so many things that, so many jobs I wanted that I didn't get, but then later someone's like, oh, we read her for that. We should meet her for this. And I didn't get that job either, but, but it's like, it's just funny. So yeah,
1 (59m 48s):
Like leaving a whole blanket of your career and you never know, you know, w where this, where the threads are going to end up.
3 (59m 55s):
Absolutely. And every time I get bummed out, which is a lot, because I'm a writer, all writers gets on debt. I, I try to think about and visualize the stack of things. I'm going to write in my life. And when I get terrible notes or when I get clobbered with notes and I feel depressed, I also think about the stack of work that I'm going to do in my life and how this piece that I'm writing right now is just one of them, you know? And that, that's my, that's my real tombstone like that pile, you know?
1 (1h 0m 22s):
Oh, I love that. What a great image and what a great note to end on.
4 (1h 0m 37s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: Boz is in the clear!
Let Me Run This By You: secrets, scorched earth
Interview: We talk to Chisa Hutchinson about her new film The Subject, Vassar, being a high school English teacher, NYU Tisch, The Lark Play Development Center, New Dramatists, having a sleepover with Tina Howe, She Like Girls, Amerikin at the Alley Theatre, NYT reviews, 101 Reasons Not to Breed, Bad Art Friend, Haagen-Dazs, The Evansville Regional Airport, Three Women on Showtime, Lisa Taddeo, Playwrights as Screenwriters, Marsha Norman, Lynn Nottage, Tony Gerber, Richard Wesley, Stephanie Allain, Di Glazer, having an intentional career.
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (8s):
And Jen Bosworth
Gina Pulice (10s):
and I'm Gina
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
Gina Pulice (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
Gina Pulice (33s):
You don't have cancer.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (35s):
No, I do not have cancer right now. Do not have cancer at this moment. Who knows the next week. Yeah, no, it was, it's been quite a thing. Like I, I, you know, right. My cousin Dalia, who is what become one of my best friends in our adult lives, which is amazing. I never had any family that like, I truly liked as people know, that sounds so terrible, but I know exactly like good friends. And she says, you know, the brain is a problem making machine and it is that's, you know, it's also solves them, but it also creates them.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1m 17s):
And look, I'm not saying that that the ch that it wasn't possible that I had cancer, but like all the evidence pointed oh, right. The emotional evidence pointed to I had cancer. Like I made an emotional face based on my past and my parent, my mom's past and my dad's path. And I made a really strong case that I had cancer in my head and look, it's possible. So that's the other thing that is so, so compelling about the human condition. Is that like, and what Dr. Oltman used to say to me, it was like, look, you're not, you're not delusional. You're not psychotic. You're not, so you're not making up things that are like, aliens are going to come down and take you, your fears are based in, in things that have happened to you and other people and people you love.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (2m 6s):
So it's not as though this idea, this idea of like, you know, right. It can't happen. You know, like it, I know in my body of, you know, my body of work that I've done in my life, that people die all the time of cancer and get cancer all the time, as we all do, I have a more intimate knowledge is because I lost my mom from it and saw the actual process. But I'm here to say, like, if you're freaking out about things, most of the time they're things that have happened to you or other people. So they're valid freak freakouts. It's just that they don't actually happen to be true all the time.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (2m 47s):
So like weird.
Gina Pulice (2m 49s):
It's almost like you want to say, Thank you brain for protecting me because you know, you you've correctly picked up on the fact that when things are Sort of looking like this, it's, it means something bad, but you can relax now. Right. Because it's not that right.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (3m 7s):
And it's actually not while I appreciate you brain, you're not always dealing with, with, with what's the reality, the truth. You don't, you don't. Yeah. You don't get an unfortunately brain. You don't get to, you're not a psychic, like you're just not, you have evidence. And then, so, so I had, you know, for, for our listeners, you know, like I had, I've had pain and history of weirdness on my left ovary. And it's really interesting. The cyst that is most, this is so crazy. This is how, this is what the brain does. So I'm like, okay, left side. I'm sure I have cancer on my leftover.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (3m 48s):
Like, that's, what's going on. It turns out the right one, the cyst is bigger. I have one on my right. They didn't see me yesterday or two days. And the, and the, the right one is bigger and actually contains more blood and fluid. I feel nothing on my right side. So that is also to goes to show that even if you do have cancer, it could be in a place that I don't. But like, you don't know where it's coming from. So like, even your feelings are wrong, your pain body is wrong. So like, you really don't know. So it was so funny. She was like, yeah, your left side, even though it's more active, there are a lot of simple cysts. So, you know, for this is like a women's health thing. Like people don't do any Reese. I shouldn't say that there's not a ton of research done because it's a woman's issue.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (4m 32s):
So it's not like, unless it's breast cancer, like nobody gives a shit about like women's cancers usually. So, cause that that's what, you know, got all the funding. So, so, so cysts grow all the time, all the time and women, they come and they go, those are simple cysts. If you have endometrial cysts or complexes, that is not, they don't come and go. They just stay. So I have several on my left side that come and go one that stays. And one that stays on the right. They don't know what's actually causing the amount of pain, but they think it's probably the left one leaking. The other thing is like, I would have sworn I had a cyst, the size of a grapefruit. If you would've asked me, I would say, it's probably grapefruit size.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (5m 15s):
It's that? It's an inch on one of them. That's nothing. Well, I mean, it's not nothing cause the ovaries two inches, but like w it, you just can't always trust what your, what your feelings are. Like, it's valid, you're in pain. But like, you don't know what it looks like until, you know what it looks like. And I think that that's the whole thing I'm coming around to, which is just go to the freaking doctor, please, if you have the resource, even if you don't like find them create, I don't know, like ask somebody, but like, you know, and I've gone to plenty of free clinics and they're not glamorous and they're not exciting, but they, they, they still have an ultrasound machine, you know?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (5m 56s):
So like, get, get it, get shit checked out. If you can easier said than done. But if it's an emotional fear based response, that's stopping you and not a resource-based response, you got to work through it and go, even if it is resource-based, there are, you know, there are ways around that. But like, especially if it's, you have all the resources, but there is something internally in you that is going, I don't want to know, believe me, I get it. But you want to know, you really want to know it's the only way through anything is getting the data. It's so annoying, but it's true.
Gina Pulice (6m 35s):
I agree. 100% with what you're saying, and this is why people love to join cults because the fantasy, the thing that's being promised in a cult is there is a finite number of answers. I, the cult leader have, there is a clear path to the number of steps that you have to take to get, you know, it's, it's everything we wish life would be predictable or seemingly predictable controlled, highly structured, you know, without a concern like to be in a cult is to not be in a process of discovering what happens next.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (7m 24s):
Exactly, Exactly. And it's so compelling. It is so comforting to think, oh my gosh, this person and this entity knows everything. I never have to worry again. That's really what we're saying is I never have to worry about anything. Again, the problem is it's just make believe. And you actually do have to worry because the person is usually a sociopath or psychopath and it doesn't actually do the trick. They think, you think it's going to do the trick. And it usually does the trick for a while for people like our guests, Noel was talking about like, it serves a purpose until you start questioning and then you're in real trouble because then it's like, how the fuck do I get out?
Gina Pulice (8m 10s):
Yeah, exactly. Well, I am very happy that you, I mean, I'm sorry that you're been in pain, but I'm happy. It's not for some worse reasons.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (8m 19s):
The other thing I have to say that is so interesting that I just wanted to, to, to me anyway, that I wanted to bring up was like, okay, I may not have in the Hollywood right now in the Hollywood industry, a team of people that are like on my side, but I'm S I swear to God, my medical team has, is filling that hole. So I just got an email from my cardiologists. Who said, your, your gynecologist thought you were amazing, loves you. How did it go? Like, that's the kind of messages I get from my, of medical experts. And so I read and I like started crying and I realized like, oh, I'm not getting it from my career team.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 3s):
Like, I've talked about getting nasty emails from potential managers and stuff like that, but I am getting it from the medical team. They're like, amazing. They're like, you are the best. We love you. And I like,
Gina Pulice (9m 17s):
What if they gave awards for being a great patient?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 19s):
I would Get something for Shot.
Gina Pulice (9m 21s):
You would get like a gynie award. I'm
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 23s):
Like the best guy, knee, patient,
Gina Pulice (9m 26s):
And the, and the, and the statue is just like, you know, the uterus.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (9m 31s):
Yeah. I mean, anyway, so that was really interesting to me. Cause I was really touched this morning when she wrote me. I'm like, who, what doctor, what? It's, she's a, she thought you were amazing. I was like, Hey, that's cool. Well, at least somewhat, you know what I mean? Like, I'll take this. It's so funny.
Gina Pulice (9m 46s):
Well, the truth is you are amazing. And the difference is with between people who know you and people who don't know you, I mean, that's just what it is. Like when people get to know you, not 10 out of 10 people who know Foz agree. She's amazing. It's just, you know, you have to convince people to get in the door. That's
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 6s):
It?
Gina Pulice (10m 7s):
Yeah. All right.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 9s):
I'm with you, my friend. How do you feel about all the post?
Gina Pulice (10m 14s):
It's just, it goes on. It's done. It's just a saga. Yes, we should.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 22s):
We don't have to be explicit, but like you, you,
Gina Pulice (10m 24s):
I can be explicit because fuck those people,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (10m 27s):
Will you left an organization
Gina Pulice (10m 28s):
It's called Theatre Artists workshop. And I left them because aside from a handful of members and everybody that was on the board, it was one of the more toxic environments I've ever been a part of. And I quit. And I'm the only one who quit effective immediately. Everybody else is staying. Two people are staying on and then everybody else is staying through through 2021. But when I tell you the way that people are responding, we couldn't have crafted it better ourselves. If we said, let's, let's create, like, if we were making this movie and this whole conflict happened, we'd say now what's a way that people could respond.
Gina Pulice (11m 17s):
That would exactly prove the point of what they were saying toxic in the first place. And two, that the fact that most people are doing that and have zero awareness. So essentially what's happening is that people are reacting to our letter. That goes step-by-step and explains the ways in which we've been abused, right? People are responding to this with a combination of don't take things. So personally
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (11m 46s):
Sure. Of course, that's the number one abuser thing to do,
Gina Pulice (11m 49s):
And just completely invalidating ignoring what we've said about the abuse. They, everybody finds something that's in the letter to take issue with and makes their whole thing about that or, and says nothing of, and by the way, I'm sorry, you were abused. Or, and by the way, you know, and people are saying, thanks, but I'm into this thing recently. I hollow gratitude. Miss me with your hollow gratitude. I don't care. I do not care. I could wallpaper my bathroom with your thank you is right. It's not what I need. I need you to change your behavior.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (12m 28s):
Absolutely.
Gina Pulice (12m 29s):
Forgive me if I said this to you already, but I'm likening it to, you know, when COVID happened and everybody puts a sign in their front yard saying, thank you, frontline workers. Yeah. And they're banging pots and pans at 5:00 PM in New York city. Like, and the frontline workers are going, I don't think I don't need your sign, like get vaccinated and wear your mask. Right. And everybody's like, I know, I know the,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (12m 54s):
Without a mask on and like at their concert. Right.
Gina Pulice (12m 58s):
That's exactly it. That's exactly right. And, and, and I shouldn't be surprised. We all myself included are kind of in a way, programmed to not see our own bad behavior and to not want to take responsibility, but it just goes on anyway. So, but it goes on in a way that I can choose how much I want to engage with.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (13m 18s):
And also it's like it to me from the outside. It's so clear that you made the right choice. If this is the response, like they just proved, like you said, they proved the exact point there that's insane. And, and too, and you made the right choice. Like why would you stick around and be beaten down after you've made a stand? And then they continue to try to beat down that doesn't, that's insane if you stayed like that's insane.
Gina Pulice (13m 44s):
Yeah. Yeah. To give one just chef's kiss example. In our letter, we, we, one of the things that we said was when we tried to introduce our DEI policy, the very first thing we decided to introduce was content warnings. And we did it in the most careful way, like to, to hear about a content warning about something you're going to see presented at the workshop. You have to click down the email. Like you can choose not to see the content warning, right. Because everybody was complaining, it's art and we need to slap people in the face with it, whatever you can choose, whether or not.
Gina Pulice (14m 25s):
So it's literally like if I, if I'm allergic to peanuts, I'm going to read every nutrition label. Cause I want you to make sure that if I'm not allergic to peanuts, which I'm not, then I don't really need that information. It's no different than that. Right. That alone caused our first member to quit saying if he couldn't use, if he could, he could, if he could. I mean, it wasn't even related really to the content or if he couldn't use the N word, he couldn't theater and in that same evening.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (14m 57s):
Bye, bye. See you later. You're not going to make theater. We're all not here. You're not gonna do it here. Thank you.
Gina Pulice (15m 4s):
Oh yeah. Two of our members who are from marginalized, societal groups got stood up or, you know, spoke that night and said the ways in which they've been marginalized at TAW. And that, I mean, it was crickets, not one single person gave any support. And we had listed that in our, in our letter. So this email we received from one of our members last night opened with I'm a board member of a condo complex. And we recently oversaw a renovation that made our building double in value.
Gina Pulice (15m 44s):
We, as a board, had to sit and listen to a tenant or what resident, whatever. Talk about the color of the paint in the laundry room for 30 minutes. And he bolds and underlines 30 all caps, 30 minutes. Okay. It goes, it goes along with being on the board and I thought, okay, so you're comparing you pace. Exactly. You're comparing.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (16m 15s):
Bye bye, bye
Gina Pulice (16m 34s):
Name and saying it all is because the thing I wanted to run by you this week is about secrets. I am. I'm all the way done with secrets. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm not saying like, if you tell me something in confidence, I'm not saying I'm not going to keep that a secret seat. That's not the kind of secret I'm talking about. I'm talking about the kind of secrets where, you know, you know, so I, I have written personal essays that reference my family as personal essays do. And you know, and I'm sure a lot of it has rubbed people the wrong way. I in particular wrote an essay in which I compared somebody in my family to Scott Peterson and, and that person let me know in the creepiest possible way, which is to say this person that, yes, we just happened.
Gina Pulice (17m 32s):
We are not friends on Facebook. He's not even to my knowledge, this guy has zero social media presence. I receive, I open my phone. There's a notification. So-and-so liked your post. My heart skipped a beat. I mean, it was like my blood turned cold. I went, you had to scroll pretty far down on my timeline to find that post. And it's the only one he liked. Are you kidding me? Your face is exactly your face of surprise. That exactly. Thank you.
Gina Pulice (18m 13s):
Oh, I really appreciate you validating that. Okay.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (18m 15s):
That's so it's because two things you're super intelligent and also we like crime weirdness, but also it's fucking creepy.
Gina Pulice (18m 26s):
It's fucking creepy. That's weird by the way, about any post, if anybody who I'm not friends with on Facebook likes a post that's way down the feed.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (18m 38s):
Well, if that's something you're not friends with on,
Gina Pulice (18m 42s):
Yeah. The whole thing is creepy. The whole thing is 1000% creepy. So part of the thing that I struggle with in writing personal things is airing the dirty laundry, you know, telling the secrets. And I really do try to tell only the secrets that are mine. I really try not to tell anybody else's secrets, but in general, it's so exhausting to be in this perpetual state of protecting a bunch of people who would never protect.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (19m 16s):
There's the key. I mean, like, I think that's the kicker, right? It's like, and I think it speaks to a bigger issue. Like we're all protecting this in these institutional institutions and, and companies and things that are destroying us and we've been projecting them for years. And I think it speaks to why we started the podcast unknowingly is that to protect, we wanted to stop in our way and stop protecting institutions that harmed us whether some are assholes right out some aren't some are, but like institutions harm people. Like I just think that that's the way, right? That's just how it is. It's capitalism, it's democracy, whatever it is, they harm people.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (19m 58s):
So I think we're trying to shed some light on that and say, no, we're going to heal from that. And I don't think you can heal from it unless you really process it. And some of that is bringing the secrets into the light and no, and people don't like that.
Gina Pulice (20m 12s):
People don't like it. And you and I have had many conversations following interviews where we said, do we bleep this person's name? Do we cut this thing out? And with the exception of one person who we interviewed, who then said that they didn't want us to air the interview. Nobody has said, I regret saying that. Can you, and, and when they're here talking, I mean, we've encountered people feel such a freedom and a relief and they have no problem naming names. Right. And so it's been our thing of like, do we protect this person's identity? But the other thing is, here's the, here's the part in the whole dynamic that I'm trying to own for what I do in this, in this situation about the secrets and everything.
Gina Pulice (21m 1s):
I wrote something personal, I published it on our website. I promoted it on social media. Theoretically. I want everybody in the world to read it, except this one guy. Right? Like that's, that's my logic. There is, it's really flawed, right? Like if you're going to be brave, then you have to be brave. Right. You can't be brave only when it's convenient.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21m 31s):
Right. I totally agree. I mean, I think that, and I think it's really great to have the conversations about like, okay, like who are we bleeping and why? And someone on, you know, on this podcast who we, I don't think we've bleeped, but she gets a lot of bad press as Susan Leigh.
Gina Pulice (21m 50s):
She really does get a lot of bad press.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (21m 52s):
I mean, and, and, and, you know, I'm like, man, should we have been bleeping or out, but,
Gina Pulice (21m 59s):
But she did it. I mean, it's her, she is the person who should be carrying around the shame for her behavior. Not the people who she harmed the, you know, it's not there. And that's the other thing that we have usually all the way backwards is that we make the people who experienced the pain, shut up about it. Yeah. It to, to protect us. And who did the pain. Yeah. Right.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (22m 25s):
Yeah. Just, yeah, it's, it's all backwards. And again, it's like, you know, she works for, she worked for an institution and they, they, you know, they should, she grew up
Gina Pulice (22m 34s):
And a time and she's, and she's probably the victim of a lot of sexism. Like it's only, it's all of a piece, but the fact remains that at, at that time, maybe she's a completely different person now, but the fact remains that at that time, she did and said a lot of really racist things
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (22m 51s):
And hurtful and other ways, like, just, I mean, I think racism is hurtful, but like other types of hurtful besides racism, just like weird shit, you know, that hurt people. And I, I mean, it's just their truth. And I think it's actually up to, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's a co it's a, it's kind of a complicated issue and yet it's not complicated. It's like, you're right. We're just protecting the people that hurt us all the time. That's like when I got, when I got that very nasty email from, from that manager, my first response was in, this is interesting. My first response was to drag him through Twitter.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (23m 31s):
Like I was going to put his name and say, I got this. It was so hurtful. And I feel like as a woman, as a Latina, that to get this email about fucking formatting, when I'm trying to break into the business is the condescending. I wanted to drag him. And then I thought, okay, there's a difference between speaking your truth and dragging someone. I don't know the difference exactly. Like, I don't know where the nuances lie that make them different, but dragging someone in Twitter versus, and I don't blame people for dragging people on Twitter, either like that. I'm not saying like dragging people is wrong.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (24m 12s):
I think some people need to be dragged. I mean, we've talked about Louis C K's of the world and the Weinsteins do, who deserves to be dragged, who does it. And that's really what I wrote my pilot about, but like, I just didn't feel, I think every person has to decide if they're going to keep secrets, why, or if they're going to drag someone why, or like put it in on social media, straight up, this person did this. You have to be, I have to be prepared to deal with the full consequences if I do that. And I'm just not willing to deal with the full consequences of dragging this guy on Twitter. I'm just not, I'm just not, I don't feel certain.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (24m 51s):
Now there are people where if something happened, I would work it out and I might feel certain to drag their ass. But it was interesting. I think everyone has to decide for themselves where the line is of when I'm going to expose someone to the fullest, et cetera, or an institution to the fullest extent and leave the individual out of it. I don't know.
Gina Pulice (25m 12s):
Right. Well, and you, and you don't want to do anything. That's gonna harm you. I mean, if you, if you were in a certain place in your life and you did like people dragging that guy would never have hurt you, then you could've, you could've made that decision. Yeah. And I'll also just say for anybody listening, who knows me in real life and, and who've, I've hurt and misbehaved, I invite you not to keep that secret. You know, I, I invite you to drag me if it's something that, I mean, for the thing, for my, for the sins of my past, if anybody is, you know, holding on to that and never has told me, or whatever, like I'd rather hear about it, I'd rather know, and try to make amends and to party so that I I'll feel that I have the right to participate in this, keeping those secrets, telling the truth culture that I really try to, you know, I really try to stay within.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (26m 16s):
Right, right. So, wow. I forgot. I was going to say something else about That's a lot like that. I just feel like, yeah, this whole, this whole notion of keeping, keeping it, you know, and they say in program, like you're only as sick as your secrets. And I think it's really true. And I think there's a way of, of working through the secret that won't bring further harm to yourself versus versus versus doing something that exposes you further. You know what I mean? And brings, and bring, could bring more abuse or you have to look at, I mean, you know, like it's like, except when to do so would injure yourself for others.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (27m 3s):
But, but, but, but, but dragging is about sort of injuring others in a way. I don't know. It's like really interesting. I don't know,
Gina Pulice (27m 11s):
You know, that saying, or I think, I don't know if you call it, call it a saying, is it kind, is it truthful? Is it necessary? Well, I know you're supposed to aim for all three. Yeah. To my way of thinking, you really just need two out of a three. It can be truthful and necessary, like talking about Harvey Weinstein. It's not kind, but that's okay. It didn't need to be constant. So yeah. So that's, that's, that's that tends to be my barometer is if it can't be kind, at least it has to be truthful in this. Yes.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (27m 43s):
Agreed. Agreed. And I think that's, I think for me the necessary part, it's like, okay, well, can I, can I proceed to function as a, you know, trying healthy human being without doing this? Or do I need to do something about this to proceed and live my life and feel like I'm living in integrity and that I'm, I'm doing the right thing by, by me. And sometimes you just, and, and also also, right. Sometimes people, people get, they get hurt. Yeah. But they also didn't think about that when they were abusing others. So
Gina Pulice (28m 21s):
Yes. Oh yeah. That's the other thing that came out with this board thing, you know, when we were writing the letter, somebody said, okay, so this is, we acknowledge, this is scorched earth. You know, this is a scorched earth thing, which I'm very, that is how I think about things a lot. I, I tend to think about scorched earth, but I, it occurred to me when she said this, how come nobody's ever worried about skirts, scorching the earth with me, right? How come no one's ever worried about burning a bridge with me? You know, like, yeah. Maybe it is scorched earth. But if you, if your takeaway from what I've said to you is that I'm the asshole.
Gina Pulice (29m 4s):
That's fine. I don't care. That's completely fine. Go. I wish you well on your journey, right? It wasn't for you. I guess for this letter, it was for me to say to you, I mean, if you didn't want to receive it, that's your business. Right?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (29m 22s):
Well, Today on the podcast we're talking with CISA Hutchinson. She says a graduate from Vassar and NYU, and she's a teacher, she's a playwright. She writes for television and we found our conversation with her extremely focusing and motivating. So please enjoy our conversation with CISA Hutchinson. Hi, good morning. Good. Where are you? Which coast are you on? Are you on the east coast?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (30m 2s):
Okay.
Gina Pulice (30m 3s):
I guess what, I just had to pause, watching to come talk to you, your movie, your amazing movie. Yes. Oh my God. I'm in the scene with the mother right now and it's so good. It's so good.
Chisa Hutchinson (30m 23s):
Yeah. That's that? Yeah. You know, it's so funny because when I wrote, I wrote it as a play initially, and I was, when I was writing that part, I was like, this is why people don't like theater, just two people talking like whatever, we're going to be full board. But like, I don't know. Everybody seems to like really be engaged by that part. So,
Gina Pulice (30m 51s):
Oh no. Yeah. There's nothing boring about this movie. It's called the subject. Everybody go check it out. But before I forget, she's the Hutchinson. Congratulations. You survived hotter school. You survived theater school to fancy theater school.
Chisa Hutchinson (31m 7s):
Well, yeah, sort of. Okay. So I went to Vassar college for undergrad. Yeah. Which was interesting because I knew it was a good theater program, but I didn't know that it was mostly geared toward writers and directors. Because when I, when I sent him down, there was like literally one dramatic writing class taught by a screenwriter who was like, oh yeah, I guess you can write plays if you want. Really like, learned much about the craft of playwriting while I was there.
Chisa Hutchinson (31m 46s):
But, but I had a good time and I did a lot of independent studies in the English department and the Africana studies department, just to like, you know, learn about plays theater, you know, scripts plays that weren't, you know, Shakespeare or insulin or checkoff or whatever. Right. So that was undergrad. And then I worked for a few years as a high school English teacher.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (32m 21s):
My mom was a high school English teacher and it was, it was intense. Where did you teach?
Chisa Hutchinson (32m 28s):
I taught at Westtown school, which is a Quaker boarding school in Pennsylvania, like 45 minutes Southwest of Philadelphia. And then I taught at Sage hill school in Southern California, orange county, California, which was like a whole other planet. Okay. Like I felt like a whole ass in orange county, California and teaching there. Yeah.
Gina Pulice (32m 60s):
I feel like the, the cultural translation from the east coast to orange county might be one of the biggest riffs chasms that there is there. It's quiet.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (33m 13s):
I was just going to say, you're the first guests that we've had on. And we've had many that I've been like really sort of, no, not that I'm not excited to talk to everybody else, but your, your, I was telling Gina before this, that your bio is the greatest written bio I've ever read in my life. So I told her I'm the queen of queries. Like I write a bad-ass query letter, like, but you are the baddest ass of bios. Like, I, I love that stuff because for me they're usually so down boring, but you're, and same with queries.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (33m 54s):
Like, I, I love to write a good query cause it's kind of a challenge how that bio is. You write it like in a second. I mean, I know it's a little thing, but it's a really important thing to me because
Chisa Hutchinson (34m 7s):
So long ago I don't even remember, but I just wanted to, I was like, oh, well, you know, there's going to be plenty of chance to send the short, dry, you know, you know, like formal bio. So I was like, I want my website to be, you know, I went to bio on my website to be, you know, to give a sense of like who I am as a person.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (34m 30s):
I feel like I, I was like, I with, and it's an, it's the words are economic. It's not like, it's like this long thing, but it's really short. And it's also so compelling. Anyway, I just, I just that's like my just, just, yeah, I have from zone
Gina Pulice (34m 50s):
It's on her website, everybody, chisahutchinson.com. You can check it out for yourself. It's very
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (34m 54s):
Funny. Very good.
Gina Pulice (34m 56s):
Okay. So by the time you got to T I mean, so what I understand your grad school choice was rather intentional to be about play writing and you picked maybe probably the, one of the best schools did that. Oh. Or maybe you disagree,
Chisa Hutchinson (35m 16s):
Funny story about the no, no, I loved it. I knew I absolutely loved NYU. I'd probably learn more in one semester there than I did four years. That I'm sorry. I feel like I'm talking smack about vets. I'm really not trying to like smack talk Vassar. It's just, it's really, I think they're doing better now. They've hired a playwright that I really loved to teach playwriting there. So that's, I think progress
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (35m 47s):
We've had the thing where it's like, I I'm coming to the, the sort of realization that a lot of undergrads are kind of like, well, we'll give it a shot. We don't have a awesome, we're going to really do something good luck. And then you'll go to grad school and really learn. I mean, that's how I kind of feel. So I know you're not talking
Chisa Hutchinson (36m 8s):
Because I really had a wonderful time at the ribs of great, the great place. And I learned through experience, just not so much through the cracks. And then NYU, it was literally the only grad school I applied to. And that was because I had, I had a workshop production. It was my very first workshop production of a play ever at a professional theater company or not really the Lark play development center, which has since Closed.
Chisa Hutchinson (36m 49s):
And it makes me so sad because that police was like American idol for playwrights. And like, it was the place people knew to like go to the Lark, the Lark and new dramas are like the two places that everybody knows like, okay, you want to find the next half play. Right. And go to this place. Right. So I had my very first production of a, of a full length play at the Lark and they hooked me up. Oh, hardcore. I w at me, it was so many different people who I still work with to this day. Like, I, I love the LARC. Like everyone I met at the Lark, I have kept and I keep working with them. But the game changer was they set me up with Tina Howe as a mentor.
Gina Pulice (37m 33s):
Yeah, I did. I did one of her plays and theater school.
Chisa Hutchinson (37m 38s):
That woman is a genius as a wacky genius. Okay. First of all, she's like, I think back then she had to be in her late sixties, early seventies. I don't even know. Nobody knows how old you, how so? No. She is like this waspy, like proper wasp of a woman of a certain age, you know, who apparently responded like exuberantly to my, to my plate. She liked girls, which, which is about like, again, you know, teenage inner city lesbians, you know, like, so it was really weird to have her be like this, but what she responded to was like, I have like surreal elements in that play.
Chisa Hutchinson (38m 25s):
And she was, she knows what she's all about. That surreal stuff. So they sent me up with her. They were like, you should have dinner with her after, you know, your, your presentation. And I was like, yeah, yeah, cool. So I had dinner with Tina, how well we just like talked and talked and talked to this little gas so late that I was like, oh shit. Like, I'm about to miss my last train back to New Jersey. And she was like, oh, oh no, you will do no such thing. You will not, you are not taking the train back this late. You are coming home with me. And I was like, oh, okay. So you know how so I had a Latina, how, when we woke up and she made me breakfast and she's just talking, she's had you, do you have an MFA?
Chisa Hutchinson (39m 11s):
You need any of that say, and I was like, no. She was like, well, you have to not have to apply to grad programs. If you're going to apply, you should apply to some people at NYU. My best friend works at NYU and used to reply. And I'm going to write you a letter of recommendation and you're going to go to LA. So literally I put together like a found out that the down deadline for the application was literally the next day. So I application together in a day and like hand delivered it to the department of dramatic writing and I, and cross my fingers and was just like, all right, well, I'll tell me to apply.
Chisa Hutchinson (39m 55s):
So I applied and I got in, I got in with a full, a full ride and yeah, I had just an amazing, I love my professors there. They were so dope. And what they do is they make you write. So I concentrated in playwriting, which was a really smart move apparently, because playwrights are like the hot shit in Hollywood right now. But yeah, I concentrated and play writing, but they make you write in other mediums also, as you know, it's mandatory. You have to also take TV writing. You have to also take screenwriting. Yeah. And that is, turns out is a very smart way to structure your Germany.
Chisa Hutchinson (40m 39s):
We're all working everywhere now. You know, like if there's no, there's so much, you know, cross fertilization happening.
Gina Pulice (40m 50s):
Yeah. That's fantastic. So we only know about the playwriting program at, I think one other school. So at Tisch, did you, did you write stuff? They then got produced there by the students? I mean, like acting plays
Chisa Hutchinson (41m 6s):
Is the only thing that they don't, because they're not what they try to do. They do have like one collaboration class where they bring in, they try to bring in as many professionals as possible because they want like the one sort of student variable, like the one factor, you know, to be student and everything else to be professionals. So they would bring in professional directors and professional actors for it. Wasn't yeah, it was, it was a little bizarre because it felt like you were just siloed from these people that you should be probably, you know, it'd be making connections with.
Chisa Hutchinson (41m 49s):
So it was a little ad in that respect, but I see, I get the philosophy behind it. Like I get that. They're like, we want to minimize the minimize or maximize the professionalism.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (42m 4s):
Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's just sounds like a really like super bad-ass program that I have a friend, a playwright friend named Michael Allen Harris. I don't know. He just graduated from loved it, loved it, loved it. And now, and I have this thing of going to a lot of grad schools now I'm like, I have a master's in counseling psych. I started a screenwriting program then dropped out because they were assholes. And then I'm like, now I'm like NYU grad school. I, you know, but anyway, I, I love this idea that you okay. Cause I'm, I'm in LA right now. And there's a lot of people that are like, and playwrights are hot shit in Hollywood.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (42m 47s):
Right. But I love the idea that you didn't go into playwriting to try to be a hot shit in Hollywood, unless you did. And I'm just making that
Chisa Hutchinson (42m 57s):
Like live theater, it just fits a medium that just affords you so much nuance. And like, there's just so many idiosyncrasies, you know, like you can do things. And I literally teach a class at the university of Delaware. I call it writing in 3d. It's just a playwriting class. But what I do is I make them do small, you know, short writing assignments. And each assignment is focused on some aspect. Some, some topics, some themes, some something, right. Some element that just takes on a whole other texture when it's live.
Chisa Hutchinson (43m 40s):
So like the first assignment that they get is like nudity. Right. Which c'mon, you know, like it's D you know, we see cities all day long on the screen, like, and it's no, no big. Right. But like in a live theater, that's a whole other thing. Right? Like nudity, you suddenly, you're like forced to really think about the significance of the nudity when it's like right there in your face. Right. So nudity, silence, silence in a theater is different from silence anywhere else, you know, like you can't really do silence and I'm novel, you know, it's like, well, it's a blank page. Right.
Chisa Hutchinson (44m 19s):
So with audience participation, like you literally can't do that anywhere else. You know? So yeah. Each assignment, I really try to get my students thinking the possibilities that, you know, they can take advantage of those in, in theater that they can't really get anywhere else.
Gina Pulice (44m 41s):
You're just making me think of something that makes me so sad, which is that a lot of us do approach just anything performance-related through theater, because it is so singularly special. And then as you have this line in your bio, you write these plays that have more than five characters and deal with themes of race. So they're probably never going to get produced. And actually the way, the way I met you was at the national new play network in Sacramento. I mean, I met you like passing hello, where they did a staged reading of your play America, which looks amazing. Has that ever been produced?
Chisa Hutchinson (45m 19s):
That is literally, it has been postponed twice pandemic postpartum, but it's where I'm going to start rehearsing for that in January, at alley theater in Houston.
Gina Pulice (45m 30s):
Fantastic. I'm really happy to hear that. So, you know, so theater gives us all of these things that we can't find elsewhere, and then there's zero money spent on it so that people like you only end up getting to do, you know, bring their brilliance, not only, but you get paid by bringing your brilliance to film and television, it's just kind of sad. You know, that there's, it's not a viable option to really make your living as a playwright.
Chisa Hutchinson (46m 0s):
It is. It is. I I'm not, if I knew how to fix it. Right. I, I would, but you know, I think we just need to just do the best we can. And every day I wake up feeling great. I mean, even on a, even on a shitty day, and I've had some pretty shitty days, especially like this past week or so, where, I mean just where you just feel gutted and, you know, come out and, or whatever. And you're like, just want to crawl into a cave. But then I'm like, literally like sitting in a house that you bought with, wow, you're doing, you're doing will pay.
Chisa Hutchinson (46m 49s):
And the fact that I get to do what I like in whatever capacity really, right. Like, okay, theater doesn't pay me enough to live on, but please screen, you know, screen writing or I get to teach. Like I get to talk to sit around every week, just telling young people, like I hear is why words are cool. And then they get all excited. And then they like present their work in class and then they get all, like, they get attached to each other's characters and things know like when they're reading over beating and workshop and it just, it just like tickles my soul.
Chisa Hutchinson (47m 35s):
So like, why, you know, why, why would I be sad about really anything?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (47m 43s):
Can I ask you a question about the gutted nearness of, so did you say I, you sort of brushed over it, but like the governess of, did you say reviews like of your films? Okay. Okay. So here's my question. Here's my question. Because you're someone that's working in an industry that I am like, oh my God. You know, because I'm me, I'm like, they've got it made, you know, whatever it's garbage. I know. But when a review, cause we talk a lot about, on this podcast about resilience or, and I'm obsessed with the idea of resilience or bouncing back, whatever you want to call it. What happens inside you that you're able to say, bitch, keep going. Like, what is that moment for you?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (48m 24s):
Because I'm, I had a week where a asshole said some asshole you things as they do. And then I had to like regroup and keep on with my, my situation. So what did for you, how do you do that as someone, you know, how do you do it?
Chisa Hutchinson (48m 40s):
Okay. So this is a thing that comes with time. This writing shit, like it's a war of attrition is, is really, really only the people who stick around are the ones who get to succeed on any level really. Right. So if you stick around long enough, right. If you just don't let, when someone kicks you in the face, right. You just kind of have to be like, get up and keep walking. What, what, what did it for me? I think it was like the third or fourth, like mixed review that I got in the times for a play prediction.
Chisa Hutchinson (49m 28s):
And, and then I thought, bitch, this is, this is your fourth review. And the TA, one of them was like really good, you know, like of all the reviews that I've gotten and I'm picking on the times, because of course that's the one that everybody sees. Right. But like whenever, you know, the reviews come out and some of them are like really fuses and wonderful and that's like fuel and it's, it's awesome. They're usually on the, like really rinky-dink like platforms with like 300 followers. Right. But, but you're like, oh, somebody gets it.
Chisa Hutchinson (50m 8s):
You know, like somebody, somebody out there, guess what I'm trying to do too bad. Those somebodies they're not the ones with the giant platforms, but it's okay. And so you read those and you absorb them, but then like if you just sort of take a step back and like, I, you know, like I didn't realize, you know, these reviews aren't actually keeping me from getting work. I mean, it would certainly help to have a great review right. In some, you know, in the, whatever the Washington post, whatever, right. Like whatever, big, whatever big platform, it would certainly help to have a great review, but I'm still working.
Chisa Hutchinson (50m 49s):
Like I still get work, even if, you know, I haven't been anointed by the New York times. Right. Like, so it really is just a matter of like hanging in there. Like, I, I hate to say
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (51m 2s):
I love that because, because that is something that I, and we have control over is hanging in there versus having control over whether, whoever at whatever paper or whatever, whatever loves me. I have no control over that, but I can control whether I hang in there or whether it's worth it to hang in there or not. So that's actually something you can actually do. So I like that. It's like, I can do that
Chisa Hutchinson (51m 26s):
And I'll work on the next thing. Just be working on the next, keep writing happens that when I find that I like get over bad routes, the fastest when I'm already in the middle of the next project. Sure. So like right now I'm working at, so you mentioned the subject just got released this past week, last, last week. Oh my God. How's that week. We just had our premiere party a week ago already, but yeah. And the reviews have been mixed, you know, some people like really get it. And some people I'm like, you are completely missing the point. Like you're completely missing the point and it's very frustrating, but I don't even really have time to be too concerned about it because I'm like, I'm literally in a writer's room for a Hulu show right now.
Chisa Hutchinson (52m 16s):
So I'm really, I'm, I'm my revision actually is due today after like, I'm going to have to like, you know, I was right in that. I have like 10 more pages that I need to trim, but yeah, I, I can't, I don't, I don't have time to while I can just, you just gotta be like all up in the next thing, all that.
Gina Pulice (52m 35s):
And it does make sense that review, I mean, reviews are, people have feel all kinds of artists have feelings about reviews, but it really makes sense that a writer would have a hard time, you know, just for example, ignoring reviews because your life is about words and that's what that's, what's happening in a review is the people are assembling words to, to decide, you know, pass judgment on whether or not you have something interesting to say,
Chisa Hutchinson (53m 3s):
When you write about something personal or when you write about something about which you're passionate, that it feels, so it feels like they just took a knife to your heart, you know? Like it feels so like, yeah, let me just swallow my pride with a chaser of napalm, you know, just like BR like, it just burns you on the inside and you, you just, it feels like you're never going to get over it, but you will. You do, you do the next thing and yeah,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (53m 35s):
Really. I mean, ultimately it's like, you know, fuck you and goodbye and good luck and onward, but I love the idea of moving. I always be, cause people used to tell me like, just keep writing and I'd be like, go fuck yourself because I don't want to keep writing. I want someone to like my last project not, but it's true. Like if I can shut up and, and, and stop feeling, sorry for myself, I, I look, it feels good to feel sorry for myself for a little bit. But I feel like if I can actually do something rather than ruminate and create more work, then the steam comes out of it. Just because simply there's not enough space in my brain to keep thinking about what Joe Schmo said in his last email.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (54m 21s):
So it is that it's just like focus on the writing, you know, sounds so easy to do, but it's actually, for me, a self preservation thing to keep writing, instead of ruminating on all the things that went wrong with the last, the last project or whatever, you know?
Chisa Hutchinson (54m 38s):
Yeah. And I'm very lucky also to be doing this in a time where there's Instagram and TikTok because I have like, literally I have like a little collection of videos specifically that I just, that no matter what the hell is going on, like they always make me,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (54m 59s):
I love that made me laugh minus the stone guy shoveling. Have you seen, okay, so this is an old one, but it, if anyone out there has, there's a guy who's trying to shovel snow and he cannot get it together. And he keeps falling and it's sort of a metaphor for my life and he just keeps it at the end. He just goes, fuck it. And show that shovel. And there's someone filming his neighbors filming, cracking up, but quietly not trying to make fun, but like in a way that like, man, we have all been there. The dude cannot shovel to save his life. And I was like that. I relate to that shit because it's just like, you're just shoveling and falling in your own shit and falling and someone's bike going way to go.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (55m 44s):
I feel you. So with the Tik-toks, I, I, that's a really good thing to do. You keep them for when you feel bad, you watch them or just whenever.
Chisa Hutchinson (55m 52s):
And then when I'm just like to set for words, you know, I just need to watch a video of big fluffy dogs ripping down the stairs. No, with the voiceover that's like curse. It just, oh my God. It gets every
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (56m 7s):
Time,
Chisa Hutchinson (56m 9s):
Every time
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (56m 11s):
I love it, I want to see it. I'm gonna look it up. It's a dog cursing like a voiceover.
Chisa Hutchinson (56m 16s):
I really wish. Yeah. And he's like this, there are three, three big fluffy fucking dog. You just want to like squeeze them. They're so fucking big and fluffy, you know? And they're like, there are these concrete cores outdoors right there, like three or four stairs. And they're running along the top, the top stair, I'm about to make their way down. But because the coloring and the, you know, how shallow, because of the way the stairs are built on the color, you don't, if you have no depth perception, right. Which those dogs clear would be not.
Chisa Hutchinson (56m 57s):
It's hard to know that it's not just like grown, we'll go running along the stairs. And one of them that one in the front is like, oh, I can't wait to the, and then I can't wait to get to the, and then he goes Like tumbles down the,
Gina Pulice (57m 18s):
Okay, we're going to have to try to link to that in our show notes. So people can check it out.
Chisa Hutchinson (57m 23s):
I will, we send that to you because it cracks me up.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (57m 29s):
I'm obsessed. And you're making me see why fails are so important. Like, I love fail videos. I watch news bloopers all day long because what it is is people trying their best to be sincere and be like, I take themselves so serious. I'm going to do my job. And then all of a sudden, the chair falls out and they're like still trying to do their goddamn job. And they're like, and anyway, I'm the news. And you're like, I love it because I feel like that 90% of my fucking life, I feel like I'm like, I could still do this while my legs are being taken out from under me. So anyway, Tik Toks and fails. Yes. They're worth something. They're really good.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (58m 10s):
I'm sorry.
Gina Pulice (58m 12s):
No, no, no. That's okay. No, but that's how it was. No, but it's, I mean, it's germane it's on the topic of survival is we all have ways of surviving the everyday banalities and everyday horrors of life. So you, right before we talked, started talking to you for the podcast, we always do another section of just us talking before. And we were talking about secrets and we were talking about, you know, especially as it pertains to your profession and personal writing, the dangerous territory that you start navigating when it gets into the territory of like family secrets. And I don't mean, you know, so-and-so whatever cheated on his wife.
Gina Pulice (58m 57s):
I just mean maybe more like a thematic secret where we're protecting this abusive behavior. We're protecting this abusive personality. And I recently in my life made a decision to stop doing that in, in, in multiple arenas, but specifically in one and my awakening about it is all about, I'm not holding anybody else's secrets anymore. It's not me. If you don't want me, if you don't like that about me, then you probably need to reevaluate your relationship with me. I'm done holding on to other people's secrets and actually your movie touches on that a lot.
Gina Pulice (59m 42s):
And I'm just curious about your own relationship professionally speaking to secrets and how you navigate that test, the difference between say or the potential chasm between saying something that's really true for you and saying something that could somehow hurt you in the future.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 0m 7s):
Wow. That's that sounds serious. That's a serious question. I'm kind of with you as far as like, like my husband, for example, he knows he has known from year one when we first started dating that. Like, if it's happening to you while I know you, like, if it's happening between us, like that should it's part like, like that's like, that's, that's fatter. Like I'm gonna, I will use that. Like as an I don't care if it really sort of is a little unschooled, do you?
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 0m 47s):
Oh, okay. So for example, I wrote, I wrote a book called 101 reasons to not breed. Yes. Lemon. One of the reasons is like kids, if you miss me, like, they're just messy. It's shit. Right. So what I did was I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I'm very clear on this. Right. But I do have a husband who just doesn't even see mess anymore. Doesn't realize when he's like leaving stuff for, so I literally just spent a good few months just taking pictures and text messages that he left around her.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 1m 33s):
I mean, ridiculous fucking message. Like socks on the kitchen, counter, dirty socks on the kitchen. I'm like, fuck. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will take a picture of the toilet that you did not cross blew it up. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, I will put, I will literally put your shit on. I will put your shit out there for the world. See if you don't start cleaning up after yourself. Right. Like, so that's okay. Like that's a kind of a funny, you know, version of, of, of that. Right. But there are some other things, there are other things, I mean, in the same book, I actually talk about my mother and my biological mother who gave me away when I was three.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 2m 19s):
But like before that, I mean, some of my earliest memories are of her like beating the shit out of me, you know, her and my stepdad beating the crap out of me at three, you know? So yeah. I don't, I don't, I have never had qualms about putting I'm like, you didn't have qualms about putting your fist to my, my little face. Right. So I'm not going to have qualms about like, putting that out there and trying to turn it into a positive, in case there's someone else out there who is feeling some type of way about the fact that their mother abandoned them or whatever, you know, like, I just want to let you know, like, I'm connecting with you, right. You are not alone.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 2m 59s):
Right. And you know, you find your family where you can and that's sort of the message of the book is that you don't actually have to like grow grass root, right. Or, or even honor the fact that someone grew you right. In order to, to have family into it and to feel that that familial love. So that's what the book is, is supposed to do
Gina Pulice (1h 3m 28s):
Truett fruit. Oh crap. Okay.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 32s):
I love it. So yeah, I, I will, I don't, there's really no such thing as a secret with
Gina Pulice (1h 3m 40s):
You don't have a, a quandary about it. You just go straight .
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 47s):
I do. I will let people know though, because I don't want to, you don't want to be bad art friend. Right? Like
Gina Pulice (1h 3m 56s):
Our friends on this podcast,
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 3m 58s):
I will let you know. I'm like, Hey look, because I left my husband and I'm like, look, I'm putting, do you see these pictures? You know, you see all these shit, you left around the house. Yeah. I took pictures of all of it and it's going in the book. Right. Like he knows, you know, his step, I just, or I'll ask if there's something like, I'm like, ah, hi, how do you feel about me too? Because here's why I'm thinking it will serve the story really well. Or here's why I think it'll help other people connect with it. Or, you know what I mean? Like, I I'm, I'm very clear on like, why I need a particular thing why I need to expose dirty laundry. Right, right, right.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 4m 39s):
So, and as long as I can voice that, like most folks are okay with it. Well, what really cracks me up is when the people don't even recognize themselves in your
Gina Pulice (1h 4m 49s):
Oh, right. They'll or they'll, they'll tell, they'll tell you the character that they know you meant to be them. And it's not, it's like an admirable character and that's not who you are
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 4m 60s):
Now that ain't too.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 5m 2s):
I have a question as it relates to like, and I told you to, before this, I was going to ask you this. So I sent him a letter to someone, a query, and I said like, I'm a Latina, I'm a middle aged woman. I'm getting into television bubble. Anyway, I got a horrific, crazy response. And my initial response was to drag the motherfucker on Twitter, but I didn't do it. What, what do you think about, I don't even know if drags the right word out, whatever it is. It was a terrible situation that I felt. And my first response was, I'm going to get this motherfucker. I did not do it. I did not do it. But what do you feel about people that are go, go on social media or groups or whatever.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 5m 44s):
I just, what are your thoughts on saying on, on, on doing that? Cause people are doing it a lot, you know? And, and I don't, I don't necessarily Gina and I talked about like, I'm not sure it's a terrible thing. I just, it wasn't right for me to do in that moment also, because
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 6m 1s):
It's not a terrible thing, but it's not a great, I mean, it's not very everyone. Like, I, I don't really do it so much because I feel like it's giving them too much power or it's, it's that thing of like, okay, yeah. Dwell, dwell on it for five minutes and then move on like that, because that's, that's really how you can get back at those motherfuckers, right. Is to just like go on with your life and be happy and, you know, find joy elsewhere. Right? Like that's and, you know, to, to dignify their, their fuckery was, you know, you are strongly worded Facebook posts.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 6m 47s):
Right. Is what is it doing? You know? I mean, would you feel better? It might make you feel better just to kind of like, get it out there. It also might help you connect with, you know, other people who have experienced a similar thing. Right. And, you know, maybe they were feeling isolated or alone and they're in their failure or in their, whatever it is. Right. So, I mean, I'm not gonna say it doesn't have its uses. Right. But as far as like, is it getting back at that person
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 7m 18s):
And also, right.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 7m 22s):
I really I'm just, so this is a lesson that I'm really just now getting around to like learning in a, in a sort of visceral way. Is that like nobody cares? No, I literally just today was, well that's right. Post, because I saw on IMD be the subject. There are a couple of, and it's really just a couple, like, there are a couple of really awful, I mean, Pete, just users who were just like, you know, clearly expecting it to be a comedy because Jason business owner or something, Make movies fun again, you know? And I was just like, oh dude.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 8m 3s):
And they're the ones who, who will take the time to like post over review or post it's their, I can't even call them props because they would have to be thinking I would have to have brain. Right. But I did, like, I went on Facebook, like the closest I'll come is like, I went on Facebook and was like, Hey, y'all alert if you enjoy the movie, like, please rate it. Please post a review because these guys like their opinions, shouldn't be the stand in for everybody. Else's right. And that's, that's really about as close as I'll come. But even that I'm like, I was torn about doing that because I'm like, doesn't even, does it even matter?
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 8m 47s):
Like,
Gina Pulice (1h 8m 48s):
And it gets back to this whole thing about reviews because I saw your post and it's specifically men over 45 or something like that. And I thought, yeah, but who else is writing these things, but men over 45, like I'm guilty of loving something and then not writing it down anywhere that I love it because it's, so it's such an, it has become such an important part of art making, like how are people receiving it? And is it getting enough views? And is it getting enough, you know, clicks. And to me it's always just like the person who ha, who wants to take their time when it's not positive to tell you that you put your heart and soul into something and they didn't care for it.
Gina Pulice (1h 9m 31s):
And I don't understand the impulse, actually.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 9m 34s):
This is the biggest demographic of voters, by the way. I think too, like I I'm just saying like, these are people that like really when they feel something, they feel really entitled to just like trash it. Or I think the, the, maybe the rest of us are so busy surviving. We don't write nice reviews. I don't know. But I started to write good reviews because I realized that for people, for people in that are trying to make projects, whether it's in the arts or not that it actually matters that the rest of us speak up because those voices, like you're saying don't need to be the loudest. Cause they're not, they're not the only voices out there. There's this is people that take the time to click away. Same with the guy who ran the time to use his time to write me a nasty,
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 10m 17s):
You know, like they're, they, they have a sense of self-importance that I think the rest of us not. And I'm just like, ah,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 10m 27s):
Right, right. So I think the way to counter it is for the rest of us to start for me anyway. Cause I'm, I'm guilty too, of like not when something is great, not saying like, Hey, I love this product. Even if it's a candle, like we have a friend that makes candles, you know, and Gina, you posted about it. That matters. That's that? It's like, I got to take time out of my day, even though I'm busy hustling and all this stuff to like support the things that I do, like so that the loud, loud ass, old white dudes, don't just get to have the whole market cornered on reviews, like come on or whatever. So I think,
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 11m 7s):
You know, to bark the thing that I like out of existence, right? Like, because that is a thing that can happen too, when there's a perception that like, oh, well nobody wants this. Right. But the only people who have been, you know, it's
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 11m 22s):
And it's like, oh, this movie, this movie, or this project or whatever didn't do well, no, no, it actually did fine. It was just that the people that were screaming the loudest and felt entitled to scream, you know, people, we think that we give them importance. So it's like, we have to take back the, the importance of like, you know, the other voices it's just goes about like other voices in the room that aren't, aren't being heard.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 11m 45s):
People know when they're doing a good job. Yeah. I mean, I'm literally, okay. Places I've written to that include having dyes to let them know. And this was back before like email, you know, contact via email was like a good thing. I wrote them a letter. Okay. Like an actual letter to let them know that their green tea, ice cream is fucking delicious and that they should continue to make it. When they're you
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 12m 18s):
Wrote a letter, you got a stamp.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 12m 21s):
I wrote a letter and I wrote another letter to the Evansville regional airport
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 12m 27s):
In Indiana,
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 12m 29s):
In Evansville, Indiana, because I love that freaking airport because every time I go there, I have awesome experiences. I once left my laptop on a plane in the pocket there and they got it to me on Christmas. Like, oh, that is
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 12m 48s):
So cool. Shit.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 12m 51s):
There's always like the, the, the planes are always on top. The luggage is always like right there when granted like the friggen airport is bigger than my house. Right. Like, but like, then the luggage is always like waiting for you when you get off the plane already. And it's just, it's just like, and the people are so friendly and I just love it so much. So I've written them. I think I've read them twice actually to let them know like how awesome I think the airport is. But do you know what I mean? Like, you just want people to know that they're doing a good job. Yeah. Because then they will continue to do, especially when they know that somebody is noticing and you feel valued when you feel like your effort, like actually meant something to someone that's a beautiful thing, man.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 13m 39s):
And you know, I really try to yell because like my faith, because I'm just like, this is my famous,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 13m 46s):
I do the same thing. And people think I'm this bizarre. Like I love like my little massage place that doesn't get any, any, any excitement and Pasadena. And I like wrote like a three page essay on why Zoe the massage therapist was like my spirit, new spiritual advisor. And they gave me, you know, they were lovely and they gave me a free massage out of it. So it's like, win-win all the way around. And they're like, yeah. You know, Zoe, you know, anyway, so we appreciate that.
Gina Pulice (1h 14m 16s):
I'm going to get on, I'm going to get on Yelp later. You guys have really opened my eyes to, to do reviews, but I also have a question for you guys. I mean, is there a future in which we don't have to do reviews anymore? I mean, is, is there a universe in which we can find a different way to? I don't know. It's like, it's just, everything is so judgment based. Right. It gets tiresome. Even if it's positive judgment, it gets tired. So I'm like, why does everything everybody does have to be commented on in any way?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 14m 51s):
I think it probably comes down to end-stage capitalism in some way. Like I think like, I think it's about money at the end or like power. So, but you're right. I mean, we don't have good. We don't have other words or ways or means of saying, you know, valuing people other than quote reviewed. Can we talk just very briefly about the writer's room experience? Is that something that you'd be okay? Do is it was your first one? Scary? Do you love it? Is, are they all different? You've been on cause you've been in several, right. Even in a bun,
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 15m 24s):
This is only my second ride.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 15m 27s):
The play rat turned writer or turn television writer or turn, play, whatever would turn filmmaker. What is it like being in a writer's room?
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 15m 37s):
It is bizarre. It's also kind of on the one hand, it's kind of cool because you're like, oh, I don't have to carry this story by myself. Like I don't have, you know, like it's like having, you know, if there were five writers in the room, it's like having five brains, you know, like, you know, so you can get to think your way around an entire series really, or like at least a season with five brains. And that's just like, that's really cool because you feel like you're, you feel like you're cheating. You know, you feel like what'd you get one number for your time, but it, so that, that I think is really, really pretty awesome.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 16m 21s):
And it, it, I think swims very much upstream of this rugged American individualism, right? Like that whole narrative of wild, you know, you have to do it yourself and you have to, you know, you're only, you're the only person who could make this happen. Like, you know, it's not, it's a collaboration. Right. And it's, I dunno, you just, ah, it gives me one feels like it, it really does give me like, oh good. Like I'm not in this alone. Like we're, we're doing something together. We're all trying to serve this one goal of telling this story and telling it well.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 17m 5s):
And I think that's, that's really, that's really gorgeous. Like I really dig that this is not to say there isn't from like weird jockeying or like competitive in this, or, you know, like that happens in the room. But for the most part, it's like everyone trying to work together toward this common goal. And that, that the two rooms that I've been in, I feel like they could not be more different. First of all, I only got, I could only get into TV writing because ironically of the pandemic, because suddenly everyone was like, oh, we have to do zoom rooms.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 17m 50s):
So I didn't have to like LA or wherever, you know, like I didn't have to be in a particular place in order to make something happen. I also teach full-time like, I teach full time. So it would have been really difficult for me. And I teach two hours away from my home. So it would've been really difficult for me to like work in a writer's room, drive two hours to Delaware where I teach and then drive, like that would have been insane. Right. So like the fact that I can zoom to Delaware, teach my class and then zoom into the writer's room for three women with Showtime. Right. Like that's, that's dope.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 18m 30s):
So I'm like, great. It proved to be a blessing, you know? I dunno, what's it. Yeah. Right. Like it, it, that really worked. My first writer's room was run by a playwright. So that was pretty awesome. And there was three playwrights and then the novel it or not, it's not enough, but well she does now, but like she wrote the book that the series is based on and she's incredible. Lisa today is amazing. The, her book, three women, you know, we adapted it for a show time into a series for Showtime.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 19m 12s):
And it was just a very apparently, and I didn't know this at the time, but like, first of all, zoom rooms, so that's automatically different from like how it's normally done out there in Hollywood. Right. Then the fact that there were three playwrights and an author, you know, there weren't any like TV writers in the room written for TV, but she started out as a playwright. Right. So we all had that sensibility of like, let's talk about character. Like let's like really dig into their backstory. And like, if you write the backstories of that character, you write the backstory for this character and we'll all come together and we'll talk about blah, blah. But, you know, like, and it was just a very sort of like, let's get our hands in the clay and Mike Ryan, you know, and that feels very different from the room that I'm in right now, which is more literally like the early play right in the room.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 20m 6s):
The, actually there was one other who has a theater background, but she started out in TV professionally. Right. So everyone else is like TV. And so they're very fast talking. They're very like, and they like have a whole like system of boards. You know, we have board White boards and post-its Board, we have a pitch put on the board, blah, blah, blah. Right. And it's very sort of regimented and there's a calendar and, you know, you know, so it's, it's a little less, a little less loosey goosey and a little more like I really had to sort of get acclimated to like, oh, y'all are just talking over each other and shit. Okay. Well, let me just, let me try to get to this word.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 20m 47s):
It, let me try to get my wording. I'm agile. I'm not, I'm not quite great used to that, but, but it also, I think is a pretty, is a pretty cool way to go about like plotting out story. Like there it's very organized, you know? Yeah.
Gina Pulice (1h 21m 11s):
I don't know if this is what you're saying, but what it sounds like you're what, what occurs to me as you're talking about that is that maybe like, it's the difference between people who are approaching something as, and I don't want to say this with any value judgment, but people who are approaching something as a product, you know, versus, I mean, the, the impulse for the playwright is to uncover what it is while they're doing it. Right. And, and
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 21m 41s):
Not the destination. Right.
Gina Pulice (1h 21m 43s):
Right. The difference between yeah. That's what, it's the difference between and there's, and I have to imagine there's lots of need for both of those approaches to good writing. Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned Tina, how, what other mentors have made the surviving this life easier for you?
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 22m 3s):
Okay. Lynn Nottage, like so huge. Like she has been such a hurt and her husband, Tony Gerber, let me into their home. I was in, when I was at grad school, they, okay. So when I was at grad school, I had a masterclass that was being taught by Diana Sohn, who is like besties with Lynn Nottage. They lived two blocks from each other in Brooklyn. Like it's, you know, it's a crazy connection. Right. So when it came time to do an internship, as part of my curriculum, I was like, well, how on I have to like go and I'd make photocopies of some theater company that like, I may or may not be answering, you know, like the work that they do.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 22m 46s):
Like, I don't want to do that instead. How about I just follow a play? Right. I really respect around, you know, just shadow her and like assist her in like whatever she needs assistance with. Right. And I was like, I would love to follow Lynn Nottage around. And I wonder if I went to Diana and said, Hey, do you think Lynn would be interested in having an assistant for a semester that she would be into it? And she was like, yeah, I don't know, but I'll ask. And she did. And we want that. Meanwhile, I had to go clear it with, with the head of the department to be like, who was Richard Wesley at the time, by the way, who is another like, mentor like, oh, that man Richard Wesley isn't, he's just like such an incredible dude.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 23m 28s):
So him, I went to him and I was like, Hey Richard, listen, I don't want to go do this boring internship at whatever theater company. I really just want to follow. They're not around if I can make that happen. Can I, would that count? He's like, yeah, sure. Whatever. So I really wasn't able to make that experience what I wanted it to be like, what I felt would be beneficial to me. And when I met Lynn, it was just like a couple of weeks before she went her first Pulitzer. So yeah, it was a very busy semester as you know, like she's just such a warm, ah, just such a sweet, warm individual, you know?
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 24m 11s):
And she let me, I mean, I handled everything from like, oh, go shopping for my daughter's 10th birthday party. Right. Like, oh, help with my taxes. Oh, help me adapt this stage. Play for radio. Oh, hell. I mean, like I got to do like so many things with her. And then like when she felt she didn't have enough work for me to do, she let me tag along with her husband, Tony, who is a documentary, a documentarian. And he, you know, like gave me the little office space in his, you know, like a little desk and everything. And I got to, you know, I had, I just got to do so much with them. They exposed me to so much.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 24m 51s):
And then later on, like, it didn't just stop after this semester. It was like, you know, I could ask for a letter of recommendation for a thing. She, you know, nominated me for some award or other recommended me for this job. You know, I'm pretty sure I got the audible commission because of her and maybe David, who also is like a mentor of your stop, bragging and bragging, because they're just so much, and there's just so many, so many people, the traumas Guild has been like a huge, it does like kind of organization, like count as a mentor, hugely, hugely helpful to a lot of playwrights who are just like trying to get some traction.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 25m 39s):
Like, yeah. I mean like people like blessed with mentors. I mean, a glut, like an embarrassing, like an embarrassment of riches, like as far as, you know, mentors and people who helped me along Stephanie Alleyne was like, my film fairy godmother is that Stephanie Eileen is she's married to the Stephen Bray, but she is a, she is a, a producer, like a really bad ass producer, both in theater and in, yeah.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 26m 19s):
So she's produced, she did that streetcar named desire with Blair Underwood in the color, verbal. She was one of the producers on the color purple. Like, you know, just so that, and then on the other end of things, on the other side of the, of the country, she's doing, she, her first out of the gate, it was like boys in the hood. Oh shit. And then she did hustle and flow. She did dear white people, the movie, and now she's producing the series. She's just, she's just incredible. And she is another one of these people who is like, okay, I'm here.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 27m 0s):
Who can I bring with me now? I was like, all right, I'm here, I'm holding the gate open. And she just, I just, I just man, and my agent, my agent Di Glazer the, that she is a boss bitch. Okay. See,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 27m 22s):
I heard great things about Di
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 27m 25s):
That Glazer does not fuck about man. Like she, I remember when I was on the market for a new agent, because my last one wasn't really working out so well, I feel like they didn't really quite know what to do with me. And so I told my friends, you know, I told my bestie from grad school, man, I think I need a new agent. She was like, you have to meet my agent. You have to meet my age. And I was like, all right. And I had already met with another guy who, you know, was pretty cool. And I was like, yeah, maybe, maybe, but I wasn't quite sold because he was sort of using product language to describe my planes. And I was just like, ah, I don't know.
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 28m 3s):
So I met with di and the minute, the first thing she said to me, when I sat down was I read your place. I love them. I just want to find places that love them as much as, oh
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 28m 13s):
Shit. That's a beautiful thing to
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 28m 15s):
Say. It wasn't like it. Wasn't like, you know, well, I know what's hot on the market and I will tell you what to write so that you can get your plays done. It was like, no, you're already writing amazing shit. I'm going to find the perfect homes, you know, for, you know, where the people, the producers, whoever like where they get it. Right. And I was like, and that is the difference between a really, you know, like an, like a good agent and a great agent. Diane Glazer is a great agent. And like, I, I, I just want to hug
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 28m 50s):
Photo on your contact page. Is that her with a drink in her hand? Like a
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 28m 55s):
Drink?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 28m 57s):
I bet she loves her agents so much that that's a photo. It's a beautiful photo. That's so special that you did that. I don't know. I just liked the little touches so,
Gina Pulice (1h 29m 7s):
Well, Chisa, I want to honor your time. Cause I told you that we'd only be talking for an hour, but I, I feel like crying right now because I love the way that you're talking about having a intentional approach to your career. And I feel like what happens to maybe even most people is just like a frantic chasing of what's going to be the next thing without regard for whether or not it's going to be the right thing for that person. And I guess the reason it makes me tear up as the thought that you could do that, you know, you could just do that. You could have an intention for how you want your career to be not to say you have total control over it, but, and that you could,
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 29m 51s):
I'm swinging from vine to Ryan, but,
Gina Pulice (1h 29m 54s):
And then you could S that the whole idea of where you're going starts and ends with.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 30m 2s):
Yeah. And that like that for me, I totally agree, Gina. And what comes forward? Is there something in you and Gina and I we're both therapists, so we're like a little, well, I'll speak for myself. I'm a little like, I'm like, there's something in you, one that that knows how to navigate and, and find things that are going to be good for you. Whether you feel like you're swinging from the vine or not. There's a navigational, inner navigational system that you have. That is a very, very apparent. And it also brings collaborators to you. So there are people that are drawn to that and want to help you navigate. And that I think is intentional rather than someone which Gina and I talk about, pick me, choose me, love me, which never works anyway.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 30m 46s):
But you have the opp opposite of that. It's an inner navigational system that I don't think I'll speak for myself. A lot of people have maybe until way later in their, in their career or their life. So, wow. It's freaking inspirational. It's also a good study in being intentional and, and not being like, not chasing some, some version of what you think is going to be the shit. You know what I mean?
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 31m 14s):
I guess it just helps to be ignorant of
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 31m 18s):
Great
Chisa Hutchinson (1h 31m 22s):
I'm aware of what the proper protocol or like the proper channel or whatever, and just be like my little path.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (1h 31m 32s):
Yeah. Whatever it is. It's, it's inspirational and working out, you know? So anyway, it's been a pleasure.
Gina Pulice (1h 31m 50s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an Undeniable Ink Production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plea cheat, or the co-hosts this episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: Gina ordered her theatre school transcripts
Let Me Run This By You: knowing when to let go, moments of clarity
Interview: We talk to Ammar Daraiseh about being an MFA, homesickness, Joe Slowik and Bella Itkin, Joe Mantegna, type casting, being a middle eastern actor, Sweet Smell of Success, film noir.
www.ammardaraiseh.com - there is where you can watch Ammar's acting reel and my short films he produced
www.karenkanas.com - Ammar's wife's website
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina
1 (12s):
Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,
2 (16s):
We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (34s):
Frog into my, my morning frog out of my throat yet. How you doing? I am. Wow. I have a lot to talk to you about, oh, I
1 (45s):
Half expected you to have red hair this morning.
2 (49s):
Oh, do you think I should. I okay. But like, did you see the picture? I put a run Lola run. I mean, that might be a little hard to maintain.
1 (59s):
It's super hard to make, like you'll, you'll have to be the salon and read six weeks at least, or four weeks for root touch-up. But I mean, I personally think the routes coming in would look cool, but wow. Yeah,
2 (1m 13s):
The whole rally thing. Well, I'll keep you posted cause I, I definitely want to do something different, much different what's going on. Okay. So first thing I'll just get out of the way is for fun, because we're always trying to remember our classes and who taught and what gear we did, everything I ordered my transcript, which unfortunately does not have the names of your professors. Just, yeah, it just has the name of the class and my grades were fair, not great. Like I had a 3.5 or something like that, which I would have, I thought in my memory that I got really good grades in college, but they were really just pretty average.
2 (2m 1s):
But guess what my lowest grade was in
1 (2m 8s):
Was it, was it, well, the easy choice is add Colleen,
2 (2m 13s):
My C my, my one and only see mine was an intro to psychology. I was talking to my husband about it and he goes, yeah, I got a low grade too. He's like, we were just basically saying, this is all too real. We're not ready yet. I think
1 (2m 40s):
That's a great observation by him.
2 (2m 44s):
See my whole areas. It's just hilarious. And then in other classes where I was sure, you know, I was hated like an alcohol use class in that I got A's so my God isn't that it's also subjective, like our, our experiences, something as subjective and then our memory about something totally changing. Only subjective as the years go by. Right.
1 (3m 7s):
It's not just subjective. It's yeah. It's very like mutating subjects, right? Yeah. That's crazy. Oh my God. So you ordered your transcript. Okay. Now you have a transcript
2 (3m 21s):
And guess what? Anybody can, it's 25 cents. Like if you have, if you haven't ordered, like you have a certain number, you can get in a certain period of time. And so your first one is 25 cents. You,
1 (3m 33s):
Anybody else want to have a transcript? You
2 (3m 36s):
Could relive your, your grades. Oh my gosh. Might find some surprises. Do you think you would find some surprises in your
1 (3m 42s):
I'm? Sure. I mean, I know for a fact that I, that I, I was supposed to drop a class, a, a non, obviously non theater school class, and I never dropped it. So if you don't drop it, you get an F. So I got an F in, like, I want to say it was like sociology or something like that. And I almost didn't graduate because they thought, yeah. And so you can't, I knew it was like, I remember my last year, my senior year, I had to like, do all kinds of regular role. And the other thing is that I didn't do was one year, one quarter or something you had to like re up your financial aid and I didn't do that.
1 (4m 24s):
So I didn't pay for like a quarter. And they were like, yeah, you're, I'm so shocked. I graduated. I don't know what was happening. They were like, yeah, you have to pay.
2 (4m 35s):
I had to do some real tap dancing to my parents graduate.
1 (4m 39s):
Yeah, I remember that, but I don't. Yeah. I I'm sort of scared to look at the grades. I don't.
2 (4m 46s):
Yeah. I mean, whatever, it's like a grade and acting school is just kind of funny. It should probably be, and maybe at some schools it is pass, fail. It just should be pass, fail. Like you either got it. Or you didn't get it. You either write forth effort or you didn't. Right. So that's kind of, wow. Okay. And update on surprises. Because last week I was saying like, I'm open to surprise. And it worked, which is to say, I think pretty much not that like some big surprise came falling out of the sky, like is what, the thing that I was really after. But instead I did, I took my own advice and like pursued, doing something differently.
2 (5m 27s):
And on Saturday we ended up, I just on Friday night when Aaron came home, I said, I want to have fun tomorrow, but I've got to get out of this house. I've got to get out of this town. And so he searched up like fun things to do. And he found something which actually was terrible, but it didn't matter because it was different. And we, it was a car. It was, it, it was promoting itself as some like amazing fall festival with all this kind of stuff. And it was literally a carnival, like the Carney trucks. It's amazing.
1 (6m 7s):
Like, yeah. Right. Oh, well they had some good marketing.
2 (6m 11s):
Yeah, they sure did. Cause it was listed as the number one thing to do in my state this weekend, the state and the state and the state. But even, maybe it was a slow weekend and we had fun. Anyway, we had fun. We went to a town we've never been to, we spent time together. You know, it, it was fine. It was good. And more importantly, I feel like it, it just doing something like that and genders like, okay, what else can you do? What else? You know? So I think that, that was the important thing is that it opened me up to
1 (6m 43s):
Novelty. Did anyone else, did anyone get hurt on a ride?
2 (6m 48s):
No, but the whole time I was like, I bet this is going to be one of those times where one, we're one of these things just going to go flying off into the, so if you really want to call it,
1 (6m 58s):
If you really want to go down a crazy dark rabbit hole, like, okay, well I'm obsessed with fail videos fails. You know, if you watch carnival fails. Oh my God. And most of them are deadly. Thank God. But they're just like, where thing flies off. Or like, like a lot of times what you have is cell phones going crazy or birds like birds attacking people on rollercoasters is one of my favorite things to watch. It's not that the bird is attacking. It's at the bird is just trying to fucking fly. And it runs smack into a person on rollercoaster, the best thing you've ever seen.
1 (7m 38s):
But the sad thing is 90% of the time the bird dies, you know? But like, because the velocity, the force is so great, but it's pretty freaking funny. People are filming themselves usually like right then all of a sudden, a huge pigeon like common. So carnival fails is, is one thing where like someone's standing there like videotaping their friend on the tilt, a whirl or whatever the hell it is and a bolt or something goes with. And they're like, oh, that was a part of the ride. So
2 (8m 13s):
You're standing there as an adult. I mean, as a kid, you're just like, this is the most amazing thing ever. But as you're sitting there as an adult, you just can see like the hinges where things fold up into the, you know, and you're just like, this is just, we're just all hoping that nothing bad happens, right. Best you can do is cross your fingers and hope for the best. Right.
1 (8m 33s):
And the other thing is that I I'm obsessed with watching is those Slingshot videos. So some people pass out, pass out or like people's weaves fall, fly off and like, or, well, yeah, like people pass out, but I like when things fly off or when just people say really weird stuff or like, yeah. But those
2 (8m 55s):
Slingshots are horrible. They look horrible ever. I would never, of course, of course, where I'm sure many people have been slung right off into an alligator pit ever at the museum again. Oh, that's crazy. Okay. So the, the big O thing that changed for me since I last talked to you and I'm fighting the urge since yesterday to call you for the podcast, I haven't heard the podcast. Well, I wrote down the headline is I'm going to do this in a politic way organization on the brink of collapse, ALEKS new leadership to ensure its future spends next two years, undermining their, every effort says leadership.
2 (9m 40s):
We quit. I have quit the organization organization that I have dedicated a lot of hours to serving. And it happened. Yeah. It happened after a meeting last night that went left and it didn't even honestly, as these things, are, it didn't even go as left as it's gone. There's been times where it's gone so much further skew, but all of us just had it. And actually after our interview today, I have, we have an emergency meeting to talk about it, but my decision is made, I quit.
2 (10m 25s):
I fully quit. Like I'm, I'm happy to help transition or whatever. And yeah, that happened inside. Like how did you come to the, like what happened in, what have you? Yeah. So this is kind of like a combination, just like what I wanted to talk to you about. And then also what I want to run by you because, you know, I just wrote that blog post about like how I meant examining myself in relationships and how I sometimes in the past have just, you know, one day just up and left. And the first time I did that, that felt the way that actually this thing felt last night was when I broke up with my first boyfriend in high school, it was literally like I was asleep.
2 (11m 10s):
I shot up out of bed, like in a movie. And I said, I've got to break up with this guy. And I got my clothes on and I got in my car and I drove over to his house and I walked into his house. I didn't knock the door. I walked in the house, he was in the bathroom getting ready. I, I had a little box of his shit. I go here by, I walked, he's following help cheetah. What's the matter, what's the matter. And I left. I mean, we, we did speak after that. And actually I had a couple of really crazy incidents with him even like later in life when I ran into him as an adult. But, and you know, that was terrible of me to do that was terrible.
2 (11m 51s):
But now I understand that it was because I lacked the ability to say along the way I don't like this. And I don't like that. And just kind of kept putting up with it and putting up with it. And I think my big takeaway from how I conducted myself in this organization is that I put up with stuff and put up with stuff that I really should have found more backbone along the way to say, I don't like the way you're talking to me. I don't like the way you're treating me. And in fact, I had the group of people that I work with. It I'm basically the leader of, you know, they were constantly expressing to me that they felt really abused by this group. And I would validate that and listen to them and agree with them.
2 (12m 36s):
But then when it came time to going back to the group, I fell short of saying, this will not stand. You know what I mean? I never did that. I never put my foot down and said, this that's enough because I was trying to do it in this way that I feel you're kind of supposed to do as a leader of something you're supposed to keep a level head. And it's really, frankly, it's a lot like being a therapist, you take people's projections and you take their shit and you, and you're able to see, okay, this thing is about me. This thing is not about me. This is just you projecting your shit onto me and you try to like, keep it moving for.
2 (13m 17s):
Good. Great. And it's not that we never responded with, like, this is not a feedback. Yeah. But it, I mean, obviously it didn't work. It didn't get us to where we needed to go. So we ended the meeting yesterday. I stayed on and talked to my cohort. I said, you guys, I'm, I'm done. And there was seven of us and only four of us were, were talking after cause or five of us. So there was two people who had no idea, but, but four of us said, we're ready to, oh.
2 (13m 58s):
And I spent three hours last night writing a letter that just basically told the whole history and laid it out. Exactly why, you know? And I wrote it as like, we came to this decision. I don't know if we're coming to this decision because we have to have our meeting later and I just laid it all out. And I just said, you know, basically we're at cross purposes here. Like you asked us to do something that we are doing and you don't like the way we're doing it. So it's fundamentally not going to work out. Wow. I was all revved up. I stayed awake until two 30.
2 (14m 38s):
Sure. Yeah. I've been there got three hours of sleep. Holy shit. Feeling great.
1 (15m 0s):
Good for you. I mean, I think the other thing is like, yeah. I mean, I think that when things, something isn't working, yeah. I've always struggled with knowing when to, when to leave something and like when to, I never knew, okay. Like even stupid shit, like staying home, sick from school. So like, my mom always taught us, like, you never do that unless your like hand is falling off and even then you try to go. But so then in my adult life, when I never knew when was the time to listen to yourself?
1 (15m 43s):
Yeah. Or to call it quits. Yes. Right, right. To listen to myself or like, was that, and I always second guessed myself for a long time. And even like, like I remember having like a date, you know, with, with a friend or she was really like a mentor, like an authority figure. That's always when it gets really kicked up. And I didn't know, like if I was sick or just wasn't feeling off, should I cancel? Would they be mad at me? Would I, could I take care of myself? What did taking care of myself look like? Because sometimes, and people would say like, people would, I would ask for advice and they say, sometimes taking care of yourself means staying home. Sometimes it means pushed through a little bit.
1 (16m 25s):
I never knew what, how to do that. So I never had a gauge. So it sounds like you're learning finally to like, or like you're coming to the thing of like this, this is not right. This is not working for me. And, and, and I'm going to make a bold move and then I'm going to stick by that bold move. And also knowing that like, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a move that right. That you can back up that you feel done and that you don't need to ask for reassurance or like try to, but that you're done.
1 (17m 9s):
I mean, I think that's really great. I mean, I think it's part of being a self-actualized adult to know when something's over and, and why it's over and how to do it. Right. How to end it right by you for you versus like the right thing that people want you to do. Oh,
2 (17m 27s):
100% that, and that thing that you're describing about the way that we need to be able to differentiate when I'm just feeling avoidant versus when I really need to, that is such a crucial part of a person's development. And I can say, as a parent, it's pretty hard to teach because you're like, I don't know. Do you really feel sick or really just not want to go to school? Like it's, it's tricky.
1 (17m 56s):
I, I mean, I can't imagine doing that with someone else because I literally am just now learning at 46, how to do it with myself. So like, like I can't imagine being, because the second guessing it's so interesting. It's like, it's like my, my growing up, it was, yeah, it was literally like, you, you didn't ever, you always muscled through, but I guess the, the, the, and it's like, how do you know that muscling through is too much? What is the answer? Like, you're dead. Like, that's going to be how you found out. Like, I remember this and it wasn't just my parents.
1 (18m 38s):
Like I remember my aunts, my aunts had a cleaning business. Okay. My mom's sister and her and her wife, or at the time her girlfriend, they had a cleaning business. So they cleaned people's houses. And at the end of, I think it was, I don't know which some play I was in at the rescue. And it must have been, I think it had to be it wasn't yellow boat. So it had to be this other search for delicious. Anyway, I was really sick. And, you know, obviously we, we still do performances when we're sick. That's another thing that needs to change. Right. And they're trying to change people's trenches anyway, I'm sick as a dog and I I'm sick as a dog. And I, I had to schlep my shit from the Myrtle Ruskin.
1 (19m 19s):
And the next day I was supposed to clean houses with my aunt. Like I was helping her. She gave me like a part-time job, but I'm so sick. And the night before I call, I'm literally like, like I'm hacking up blood. It turned out I had pneumonia and I had to go to the, it, it was, it was crazy. But my aunt was so mad at me that I had to bail. She shamed me. She was like, I can't believe you let me down. I literally can't talk. And she's she? And you know, she was the adult and I was a young adult, but she was anyway, the point is it, wasn't just my parents. It's a whole thing of like, how could you leave us?
2 (19m 54s):
We're going to have to talk about this with Molly Smith, Metzler, who we're going to be talking to in like maybe next week or the week after who's the creator and showrunner of a major television series. That's based on a book because this theme comes up in that series. And it's, it's something related also to, I don't know. I don't really remember if you told me that your mom's family grew up with money or without money, but
1 (20m 21s):
Without with, with, and then without, so they, they had it in Columbia and they didn't have it here.
2 (20m 27s):
Yeah. So people without money, I mean, it's, it's true. The, the decision about muscling through it is really, usually one about survival. Like you don't have the option, but for people who are, you know, in our situation now, I mean, I think the only way you really learn that for yourself, whether you should stay in through or not is with experience of, well this time when I didn't feel like doing something, and then I did it, I felt better this time when I didn't feel like something doing something. And I did it, I felt worse. Like, and just trying to build up the data as to say, this is an example of a time, like just, just the ability to be able to at, at our age, we've had enough experience that we can think through almost any set of, you know, like, okay, well, if I go to this thing, like, I think you were talking about you, miles was at the hospital getting checked out for a possible recurrence of his cancer and you were doing a reading.
2 (21m 32s):
Oh, oh,
1 (21m 33s):
It was the worst. It was insane. I was in the chapel at the hospital trying to memorize lines for a fucking 10 minute play reading that was supposed to be on book. And then they told me it was off book. And then
2 (21m 46s):
You weren't getting paid for that. Wasn't going to advance your career in any way. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. This is, and so the, the thing I really want to run by you is about like moments of clarity and really you can't force a moment of clarity it to me, or maybe you can, I can't, it just comes to you, you know, it just, it just comes to you for me, it comes to me in a moment and it just feels like on ambivalent, there's no question. This is what I have to do. This is what I can't do. This is what I can do. And I think the only way you get there is with time.
1 (22m 25s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's time and I think you're right. I think it's like trying it out. Like I tried this, it went horribly wrong or I tried this and yeah. And also, yeah, I think right there was this thing too, of like, there's also this thing I feel, and maybe this also goes back to the, the working class. I don't know what it is, but it's like people wanting to end things the quote right. Way. So like my, my mom was always big on like, you know, and my dad about like, having a conversation, like having to sit down with people and say, Hey, this is how I feel.
1 (23m 11s):
And like, it was a cop-out to like send an email or a cop-out to, but that's also kind of, garbagy like, people am things the way they can end them in the moment. And they, I don't know, I don't hold it against people for ending things the way. Look, it, would it be great if we could have closure and like, stuff like that. But like, what if, I don't know, I'm just like all for now, people doing things the way that they feel like in the moment they need to do them. Like, I don't, like I used to get into, like, I remember like leaving a sponsor relationship and she was so she was not well in my view.
1 (23m 53s):
And she was, and I've sent her an email and she really wanted to have a sit down. And yes, there's two things are true. Like, I was really scared to sit down with her and tell her, like, I think you're fucked up and this isn't working for me or whatever, but I also didn't feel safe enough to do that.
2 (24m 10s):
Yeah. Yes. That's. The other thing is if we lived in a world where it was a given that everybody was being forthright and honest and was themselves in constant dialogue about their strengths and weaknesses, and was B you know, if we lived in a world where everybody was operating from a basic level of like honesty and good intentions, then this problem would be much easier to these types of problems would be much easier to resolve because you'd say, well, I mean, it just would be a given, like, of course nobody would want to see me suffering to do.
2 (24m 51s):
Of course, they'd rather, you know, but you can't, that's not the situation in most cases. So you literally can only rely on your own understanding of yourself. Right.
1 (25m 1s):
Different context. Right. And I know that there's, there's the there that looking back, I wish I had ended things differently in a lot of different ways, but I did what I, I did what I could, you know, I did really could, but I just remember it being like my, my dad being like, you know, you should really sit down with them and talk to them and being like, you know, why like, okay, I, I hear what you're saying. So when people, yeah. I think, I think being willing to have conversations and having hard will being willing and open and available to having hard conversations with people is so much more difficult than people make it out to be.
1 (25m 41s):
Because like you're saying, it takes, it has all it takes. It's all these things come into play. It's not just like, I'm going to be a mature adult and do this the right way. It's like, what am I willing to have? What can I handle? You know,
2 (25m 55s):
W what can I handle? And, you know, in some cases, if an issue is really contentious, it becomes, you know, if I sit down with this person and really try to, they might actually further harm me. Like, I I've already had that experience with some people in this group that where I've decided, okay, the approach is I have to call this person. Right. I have to say, Hey, we're, you know, not seeing eye to eye. And a couple of times when I did that, it turned out fine. Right. And a couple of times when I did that, I thought,
1 (26m 26s):
Why did I do that? Yeah.
2 (26m 28s):
Like, not just, that was bad for me, but that was bad for them. And I feel like, I, I feel like I took us several steps backwards just because this person's mentally unwell and I'm able to have like a reasonable back and forth in a conflict.
1 (26m 42s):
Right. So it's, it's, it's a lot more complicated, I think, than people people think. And also right when you're done, you're done. And when you're done, it's like, how can I extricate myself and not try to cause further harm to other people, but also not trying to cause further harm to myself.
2 (27m 3s):
Yeah. Yeah. Which is literally, you're the
1 (27m 6s):
Only person who can do that. Right. That's nobody else's job. Right. Somebody else's job. Holy shit. Well, congratulations.
2 (27m 14s):
Thank you. So how are you doing
1 (27m 16s):
Well, this is, I'm pretty good. I'm on, I'm so weird. I don't even know. I don't think I told you this last Wednesday. I had a zoom look. I haven't had any auditions in a long time. Last Wednesday. I had a zoom audition for a film being shot in Chicago. And of course, and now I'm on, I'm on hold for it. I'm on check avail for films in Chicago. And it's a big film. And it's, I'm like, what
2 (27m 43s):
If it's going to start filming, like on one, the one-year anniversary of the day you guys went there and then had to stay,
1 (27m 50s):
Well, the thing is, it starts filming Monday, but I oh yeah. For a month. But I, I, my part is super, super small. So I doubt I I'm thinking it's a one or two days shoot. If I book it and you know, the difference of, I mean, I feel like petrified of getting it because I'm, I'm just, I I'm, we're really, you know, that's my first go-to, but I also felt like it was the first time in an audition where I was like, you know, like, how can we talk about this on here? But like, how willing am I to treat myself? Like, shit, I'm not anymore as much. So like, no matter what happens if I, if I, you know, I'm not even sure I want to be an actor.
1 (28m 36s):
Right. So, so I, I have to get clear about that. I, so if I'm not really sure that this is my life's path, then, then, then the reason that I'm scared is definitely old stuff of being approved of and making a fool of myself and feeling like all is lost if I screw up, like, so that's what I'm working with. It's not so much that this is my dream. And I want so badly to be in this film that I'm so nervous. It is old stuff, which doesn't mean that it makes it easier, but it's just clear. So I'm getting clear. So I was like, all right, if that's the case, then how can I work with that? And I just, I just had, I was like, you know what?
1 (29m 17s):
I'm not going to pretend that I don't care because I do, but I'm also not going to, I just put my foot down in terms of beating, being, being cruel to myself, I put my foot down. I said, I am not, I am not willing to berate, belittle and hurt myself if I screw this up. Or if I don't get it, or if I do get it, I am not no longer willing. I'm just going to have to set some boundary with myself about my, my, how far am I willing to go with my, with my weirdness craziness and, and self abuse. And I just, so I didn't go there and now I'm on top of avail.
1 (29m 59s):
I mean, you know, it's like, it, I'm not saying they're totally related, but I'm just saying like, it makes sense to me.
2 (30m 5s):
Yeah. It makes sense. Because every time you go further and that's been the case like over the last year or the, we talked about this every time you you're like, I don't, I, you let it go. And all of a sudden,
1 (30m 17s):
Yeah. And like, no matter, I think the, for me, the freedom lies in no matter how badly I do or think I do, no matter how awful rotten, I may screw this up in my head, or even in real life screwed up because it happened, I am not willing to treat myself like a piece of shit. Like that's where I got to, because I thought that is the only thing I have control over really, really the evidence shows that I have control. And even that is questionable sometimes. But if I'm going to have control or ownership over anything, let it be about how I treat myself as I go through this experience or I'll still do it, or else not stop auditioning because this doesn't, this is not.
1 (31m 7s):
And so I thought, okay, okay, can I, can I, and I, and I, I really was like, I was like, breathe. You know, it's a zoom audition, it's weird breathe. And it was just me in casting. And then I just went right to check avail, but which is great, but two scenes and w and we'll see, but I think it just, it's all fodder for like, can I put, can I stop treating myself terribly well,
2 (31m 32s):
Well, you know, one thing for certain, you can never go wrong when that's your guiding principle, you can go wrong when your guiding principle is, will they like me? And is it okay at, am I good enough? You know, but you'll never go wrong with when you're trying to set when you're just trying to do something intentionally. I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about is like being extremely intentional, right. Instead of reactive about right. How do I want to wind my way through the situation? What do I want my, this is just a concept that I really am new to, what do I want out of the situation? How do I want to reflect back on how I conducted myself, forget about what I want them to do.
2 (32m 13s):
Right. Because that's what I've been focused on my whole life, the other person to do.
1 (32m 17s):
Right. I, I, how can I make, how can I, how can I yeah. Make this easier for them, better for them read their mind, do what they want me to do. And I'm like, oh my God, that, that, that not only forget, it's not, it can't happen because in my make-believe mind that that, that doesn't come into play, but it, it, it feels terrible. And it, and it increases my anxiety and depression because it's so, it's so unattainable. So at least if I, if, like you said, like, if I'm the, if I'm the problem, right. If I'm the problem, that means that I'm also inside of me is also the, when the solution, the success, you know, that, thank God.
2 (33m 7s):
Yeah. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. That's the best news. So I have, I actually was just a couple of days ago thinking about you and your career paths and, and, and like the things that you have described to me, like you, you basically pursued acting because of your relationship with this other person who you wanted to emulate. And then you basically, you know, got the job as the, as the Hollywood assistant when somebody else came. I mean, it was all kind of, you know, not, maybe not that intentional.
2 (33m 50s):
And I remember having like, kind of a aha thought about it. I should have written it down because it's not occurring to me right now, but it was something about like, maybe it was just that the further she goes in figuring out the basic questions about what she really likes and what she really wants, this is going to be less and less of a thing. Like, you're the thing that you you've said a lot. Like maybe I should work at seven 11. Maybe I should work at this bakery. I don't know. There's something to it that I feel maybe it's that I feel you're really changing for yourself right now.
2 (34m 35s):
I see you approaching things with a lot more intentionality
1 (34m 38s):
And you know, what was so crazy is that I think this podcast for us is a way of actually looking at all that stuff. So like, even if the POC, I mean, I hope it goes, goes a global. And, but even if it's just for you and I to look at what the hell am I doing? Who am I, how, how can I make things better for myself? And thus be a better like kinder human probably for everybody else. Then that was all worth it. Because it's like, I could not keep going the way I was going and expect to be happy, or even at peace or even do something fun. Like I had to look at like, wait, wait, wait, what is underneath all this?
1 (35m 20s):
Like, I should just work at seven 11. And, and I, you know, and we say, this we've said this before, but like, I want to be clear, seven 11 is not the problem. I am the problem. Right? So like you work at seven 11. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, like, for me, what using that is as an excuse and our tool to try to figure out like, okay, where do I belong? That's what it is like, where do I belong? Where do I want to belong? Where can I contribute? But also, like you say, like, what do I want, where do I want to belong?
2 (35m 54s):
It's actually the, are you my mother phenomenon? You know? But in this case regarding like, where's your place in the world instead of wandering around wondering like who's in charge of you or whatever, it's that it's, which actually they're both the same thing. They're both about belonging. Right. But instead of you making it about, I guess that's what it is just like, instead of you making about another person or another institution or another entity, you're figuring out where you're guiding your own self
1 (36m 21s):
And myself and like, yeah, that's just it. Where do I belong? And I don't know yet, but I I'm pretty sure it's not at the am PM. Do you know what I mean? I just don't know that that's going to do it for me.
2 (36m 35s):
No matter how good those hot dogs are, future, how,
1 (36m 41s):
How good the deal is, two for one veggie chips. You know what I mean? Like,
2 (36m 48s):
So then when I went to that amp, it was so like, it, no, it was like
1 (36m 55s):
Vibration whole. They it's like a club. It's like a club on the weekend.
2 (37m 1s):
That's what I felt like. I felt like I walked into a club with no music and the lights were really bright.
1 (37m 8s):
It's crazy. It's put the same vibe. Like, you're like, this is a whole scene here. There's a lot of back and forth.
2 (37m 19s):
Yeah. About that all the time at gas stations, by the way, because the people who work at gas stations, I think tend to be people who are in transition. And I just observed so much, like, I love the idea that at any place I am visiting in a transitory fashion, there's a whole entrenched, you know, rich, layered history and culture. And that I just don't have any idea about because how could I, it's fascinating to think about,
1 (37m 54s):
Well, that's why you're a good writer too. It's like you get in there and you can like observe and like create w like it's a whole world. That's there
2 (38m 3s):
To be curious. Fun to be
1 (38m 4s):
Curious about. Yeah.
2 (38m 17s):
Today on the podcast we talked to Amar derisory Amar is originally from Jordan, grew up in Michigan, got his BFA and his MFA, and is a fan of Shakespeare, has some great Shakespeare series that you can check out through his website. And we enjoy talking with him about what his lasting impressions are of attending theater school. So please enjoy. So Amar, congratulations. You survived theater
3 (38m 54s):
School. Thank you. Yes, I did. You
2 (38m 57s):
Survived it twice cause you got your BFA in Michigan, right? And then your MFA at DePaul. That's correct. So you must've been very committed to being an actor from high school or earlier.
3 (39m 9s):
Yes, that is correct. I think high school is where I got the bug. Some teacher encouraged me to be in the school play and I'm like, ah, no, no, no, you have a great personality. You can do a kid. You can do it. I'm like, all right. And as soon as I got on that stage, it was like, right there. It was
2 (39m 30s):
The feeling that you had.
3 (39m 32s):
It's it's, it's, it's it's excitement. And you get these, you know, these vibes like, oh my God, I'm doing something. This is fun. It's like an addiction. It really is. It's like anything else? I just, I just went crazy. I started eating the scenery because it was like, I'm enjoying, this could be another role. At one point I wanted to play like 5, 6, 7 roles, you know, because I just said, I want to do everything. It was that much excitement. So that's when I decided to really pursue this,
2 (40m 4s):
I think to do with, I don't know something about the way you just said that made me think you were set. You were keying into people are listening to me here. Was that something
3 (40m 15s):
People were looking at me, people were watching me. People were doing that. Yes. There to a certain degree. Yes. But you know, not to the point where I want attention, you know, like, look at me, look at me. But I wanted, I wanted to make people happy, laugh, cry, you know, do something. That was the thing. I think, I think what got me was when people reacted to your performance, people that then it's like, oh my God, I did that. I did that. And that is something that is just, you can't, you can't describe that feeling is, is, it's just, it's like a forest.
1 (40m 52s):
Something that you said that really sparked a memory of you for me was like that your you are, and look, this is not everyone. We're not a one-sided, but you are a people person. Like I remember that about you. Like, there are some people who just like people, I'm a people person too. But, and I, so I recognize that. And other people where I feel like from seeing you around in school and in plays, like you really had the ability to connect with a wide variety of different kinds of people. Do you know where that came from? If that's true, if you,
3 (41m 31s):
I identify with that. I, I make friends with people on the street, just I'll just say hi to anybody. You know, I that's just my nature, my personality. I believe if you say hi to someone, you, it just makes them feel better. I think, hi, how you doing? Oh, hi. Oh, kind of surprises them that, you know, I don't have any money to leave me alone. I think some people get, get pretty weird about it. When somebody like myself says hi, where it comes from. I can't tell you. I think it's just, I've always been an outgoing person since I was a kid. I remember my parents telling me that, you know, this kid is going to be something he likes to talk to people.
3 (42m 16s):
Just, I would just talk to people. Hi,
2 (42m 20s):
Do you have artists in your family?
3 (42m 23s):
No, I am the only artist. My brother, my brother's a doctor. My sister is a, is a teacher and an administrator at a school in Abu Dhabi and the Emirates. So I am the only performance.
2 (42m 39s):
It's always so interesting to think about. Like, of course, going back throughout your family's lineage, you're not the only artist you may have been. The only one who had the opportunity. Like this is the case for me, had the opportunity to pursue it. You know? Cause what I found after I decided that I really wanted to pursue this. It's like, oh, but then my aunt can kind of paint and this one can kind of write a little bit. It just feels like it's not something that they pursued for their, you know, for their regular career. But there it's a privilege, I guess that we, you know, got a chance in school and after to pursue it. And you had some great, you were in some great plays, Romeo and Juliet landscape of the body during the
3 (43m 21s):
That's right. Oh my God. I still have that picture of me and the golden matress that John Bridges, I'm going to send it to you. I got a whole bunch of pictures of sent to you today. So I was rummaging through the old photo albums and I found a whole bunch of DePaul pictures, but yeah. Yeah, that was, that was an interesting play. I landscape with the body. It was just a, a fun, a fun play, a fun.
1 (43m 45s):
Now did you, you said that you got the bug early on because the teacher sort of encouraged you then how did that grow into? Because I'm always interested in like, okay, so when you're in a play and I'm sure that, you know, you were magnificent and they, but how did it people loved you and you loved it, but how did that transform into like, I'm going to go to a conservatory because that place was, you know, DePaul, the conservatories are crazy. So how does,
3 (44m 13s):
Okay, this is a good story. I'm glad you asked this. No, I was, I was doing a play in Flint, Michigan and the lead actress, her and I were backstage and we were just chit chatting before our next it was, I think it was during intermission, but anyway, it doesn't matter. She actually, she goes, well, are you going to go to grad school? Are you going to continue your journey? And I said, I'm not sure. I thought I'd just stick around. Maybe do some theater around here. She goes, no, no, no, you should really go. There's this place called DePaul university. It's a great school. You should go and check it out. I said, really? I said, where's that Chicago? Okay. Well, you know, sure. I go to my, my professors that my undergrad school and they paid for the application fee.
3 (44m 56s):
I mailed it in. And I think within, I think within a few weeks I got my appointment to audition for the school. And it was in January, in the dead of winter, in Michigan, Nine feet of snow as we're driving to Chicago, I'm my friend and I, but yeah,
2 (45m 20s):
You applied. It was the only place you applied for grad school.
3 (45m 24s):
I applied at Purdue university as well. I got accepted at both, both places. The, and it was Purdue or Chicago, DePaul. But I think with Purdue, you're in the middle of nowhere. It's God's country out there. There's just the school. And that's it. Where you had the theater school in Chicago and a vibrant city. It was very infectious and scary at the same time. But that's when I met the infamous John Bridges. I thought I blew it to be totally honest with you. I thought I blew it. I did a, I did a classical and I did a contemporary, obviously Joe Slovak, John Bridges.
3 (46m 4s):
And I believe Betsy Hamilton where my, my auditioners, if you will. And I thought I did okay with the classical, the contemporary was kind of thing. I got an, I, you know, green to the business, didn't know how to actually present a monologue or, you know, my teachers back and undergraduate say, look, just put them together. Just stop and blah, blah, blah, or just, you know, they, you know, they told me what, what I had to do, but I just remember saying goodbye and thank you for the time. And Joe slow. It was, you know, okay, you got a good job, good job. You know, you have a great journey back home. And I said, okay. And my friend goes, how did it go?
3 (46m 46s):
And I'm like, ah, forget it. I'm going to Purdue. I'm going to Purdue. And then, and then shoot, I auditioned on a Saturday in January. I get the letter on a Tuesday. And I remember my friend goes, Hey, you got this letter from DePaul. Why don't you open it? I said, oh, it's BS. They're just telling me they're not going to accept me. Look, I'm going to open it. I was about to rip it. And I said, oh, but it just opened it. And I'm like, oh yeah, let me read it to you. You know, I'm going to decline. You have been formally accepted.
2 (47m 20s):
Oh my God, that's amazing. That's a side note. Do you guys know that in today's day and age, when kids get their acceptance, it's email obviously. And then a lot of schools or maybe even most schools when they open the email, if they got accepted, it's a confetti graphic. So like they know as soon as they open it, if there's confetti, that is so it's so wild, right? Like the things that they could never imagine having to wait in a letter to come in the mail,
3 (47m 52s):
But
2 (47m 52s):
You did BFA. So why, why are you saying you kind of were green? You knew about,
3 (48m 0s):
I mean, I knew about acting it's I, I didn't know the, the, what we call the business affairs of acting the mechanics of acting, I guess I think, you know, we all experienced this. I'm sure guilty is charged. You know, when you're young or you're an actor, you really don't pay attention to a lot of things. You just want to, you know, you want to act, you want to do a performance. You want to do the best you can, of course. But then you also want to party afterwards and do all the things that young people do. And I, and I think I was talking to one of my fellow actors the other day and he asked me if you were to go back to grad school, what would you change? Or what would you, what would have helped you? And I said, have a class that teaches the business of acting and okay, these actors are going into Hollywood.
3 (48m 47s):
They're going to New York. They're going, whatever, teach them the basics of what the business of acting is. They got to know what a contract looks like. They got to know what business affairs mean. They got to know all this terminology. They got to know all that stuff. If I had known that that would have been a great tool for me coming to LA, coming to LA, I was green as green as a Shamrock, you know, just green. And I had to learn the hard way
1 (49m 10s):
And we'll get back to the LA part, but I'm not so curious about, okay, so you get into DePaul and then when, and usually being zest this, but I'll ask this, like when you get there, how did it match up to what you were thinking? Were you like, what the hell is going on? Why am I rolling on the floor to music or what?
3 (49m 29s):
I had no idea what was going on. And that I think scared, you know, on a side note, Chicago scared me. I was homesick for quite a bit of time before school started, I got to, I moved to Chicago, I think three weeks before school started. So there was three weeks where I did not know anybody did not know. I didn't know. Oh, I was in bad shape. And thank God for friends and family. Of course, you know, they call and man, you sound depressed, which is that dude. I'm by myself in Chicago. I don't know anybody. I don't know the city. It's a big city. It's like Flint times 20.
3 (50m 9s):
It's huge. But, but I think I, to answer your question about the school when the first day of school, wow. What up Betsy Hamilton's class. I'm like buoyancy. And I'm like, what the hell is she doing this buoyancy famously I ever done? And then it clicked it. Then I'm like, okay, I know what she's doing. All right. Okay. Joel, slow acting class. Woo. You can't do that. Okay. You got to do it this way. Okay. This little guy is running around this class and he inspired me.
3 (50m 55s):
I'm like, this is beautiful. This man in his seventies is running around like his, a guy in his twenties. He loves acting grub. Kowski all that stuff. And he was amazing, but
4 (51m 8s):
We didn't have him. So he's he was real. Hands-on
3 (51m 11s):
Like hands-on he was, I mean, I, I won the lottery with Joe slower. N not, not to say anything negative about Jim ocelot or anything like that, but he was just, he was on hands. And he really gave you when he gave you a note, he gave you a note. Okay. You know, he's like Amar, okay. Your legs. I don't know why your feet are doing that on the chair. It's like, it's not, it's not, that's an ism of yours. We gotta, you gotta, yeah. That's kinda like your feet, your feet, your body, your, your, your body is your instrument. And, you know, got to learn all this stuff.
3 (51m 52s):
And it's just woo. Graduate school. This is graduate school. So, yeah, that was a, a couple of experiences. I'm trying to think.
1 (52m 2s):
Did you feel like you fit in? Did you, did you, what was your, what was your vibe like there?
3 (52m 10s):
Unfortunately, my violet started to change in year two. That's when I started to feel, not that things weren't clicking for me or anything like that, but it just seemed like favorites started to appear. Oh, okay. You know, it's like, it happens. It's not something that, you know, it's done intentionally. It just happens. But if I, if you guys remember Eric Hayes, Eric, Michael Hayes,
4 (52m 43s):
Isabel. I haven't
3 (52m 44s):
Thought he was in Trojan women. I think he
1 (52m 50s):
Was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. So
3 (52m 52s):
He became a seminar. Yeah. Him and I don't know him and I beat we're we're unofficially the outcasts of the graduate class more or less. We weren't, we were not that, not that we were mistreated or anything. I'm not saying that we were mistreated by it just, it just seemed like we were known as the two actors that really didn't take things seriously. And I think that's a fallacy because I think I was taking it very seriously. I was just bored at times. I wanted to act, I didn't want to sit in a classroom all day and just sit. I wanted perform. I think, I think I understand the classroom format where you sit down, you watch your colleagues do their scenes, but I was getting fidgety, fidgeting, bored, bored.
3 (53m 39s):
And to the point where you dread going to school, it was like, oh, I've got to go to acting class and sit there for two and a half hours. And watch people act, you know, which I get. And again, that didn't sound right coming out. But I mean, it's just, I loved, I loved all my classmates. I loved all my classmates. I think from Derek smart to Eric Hayes, the niece Odom, Heather Ireland to name a few, you know, they, they were fantastic. Pat. Tiedemann Kendra. I mean, and one of my, let me aside. No, one of my favorite, favorite times on DePaul was with you. Gina.
3 (54m 19s):
Do you remember you? And I started a film. I, I did.
2 (54m 23s):
Oh, say what
3 (54m 27s):
You guys remember bill Burnett. The voice in nucleus. Okay. So for our, for my final exam, I wanted to film a short film about quitting smoking. And
2 (54m 38s):
Coming back to me, wait a minute,
3 (54m 40s):
You were asking me, I had to, I rented a camera from the video department on the campus and I walked into the lobby of the theater school and you were there and it's like, I need to shoot a scene. It's like, oh, let me be in it. And I said, okay, we'll just improv. We'll just talk about quitting. So we set the camera and you and I sat in the lobby and we filmed it and we did it. I think I still have it. I'll find it for you in 1994.
2 (55m 7s):
I have to tell you something, because I know you haven't been able to listen to the podcast because our website had a broken link. Okay. But what, what I should tell you is that boss and I have huge memory gaps about our time. There are many things we do not remember.
3 (55m 28s):
What
2 (55m 29s):
What's kind of weird is I sort of remembered this film that you really are hearing about it. Yeah. I mean, I believe you, I believe both of you. Okay. How exciting, you know, why I would really love that is because just last week I was saying to boss, wouldn't you like the opera? Because nothing was recorded. Really? Not even our showcase or if it was, it's not something I ever saw. No. Wouldn't you like to go back and just watch yourself? Because now we've spent basically a year and a half fully immersed. We have talked to 55 people about what their theater school experiences.
2 (56m 9s):
So we, we are getting back on board with what it was and we're slipping, you know, different people fill in like little bit of blanks. But now I like, now I'm just so curious about, you know, what, what, what was the experience of what was I like at that time? And a lot of people don't remember us, so we haven't really gotten this feedback from
3 (56m 29s):
Yeah. I mean, I remember boss. I remember all you guys. I do remember a lot of, and there's a lot of people I don't remember. I mean, I think when I was on your website the other day, you know, trying to figure out what you're like and it, which is congratulations to the both of you. I think it's awesome. I saw Tate Smith. I saw a picture of Pete Smith and I completely Like that. It was stuff like that. You know, you running into people that wow, amazing. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I interrupted you.
1 (56m 59s):
No, no, no. I was just going to ask, like, what was your, okay, so, so year two, you started getting itchy and like, but how did you feel? We talk a lot about like casting. How did you feel about your casting in shows? Which most people do? Like, there's been like one person that we've talked to. That was like, I loved my casting, but everyone else is like, I fucking hate it.
3 (57m 23s):
Nope. I haven't hated it. I hated it. And again, like I said, it happens. I think, I think a lot of the directors, the professors who are directing and all that stuff were just picking their favorites. They're not, if we're going to be in a learning environment, then you, you should take a risk with me, with somebody else with, with Heather. I think nobody was taking any risks. And everyone's like, Hey, I gotta put on a show and it's gotta be the best show I possibly can. And I'm going to use the best actors or that, you know, my opinion, the best actors. And it's like, you know, you know, if you're, you're not preparing us for the real world, you know, if you're going to do this, you know, this blind casting, whatever I thought I thought, Hey, it's a learning. I'm sure. I'm sure one of them, I'm sure Jim Ossoff will cast me.
3 (58m 3s):
Never did Joe slow cast me, you know, and his journey of the fifth horse. It was a great experience for me. That's when you learn, I didn't want to be the lead role. I want to learn. I want to learn, teach me, teach me what it like to perform on a stage that would typically be a stage from new in New York or a main stage in Chicago. That's where we got to learn. Right? Yeah.
2 (58m 29s):
That's another thing that we've really uncovered here and it, by the way, it makes perfect sense. I'm really not maligning anybody, but that the professors, you know they, they were also trying to express their own artistic desires through the projects that they were casting. And I'm sure nine times out of 10, they got carried away with their own ego about what they wanted to like, actually, we just heard this story from the episode that's airing today with Stephen Davis.
3 (58m 58s):
Oh, wow. Yeah.
2 (59m 1s):
That's a great episode. You listened to it. He re he begged the theater school to do Shakespeare. He begged them to do Romeo and Juliet, which they did. Yep. He, he really wanted to be Romeo. He didn't get cast. And he was told if I had cast you, I would had to gone with my fourth choice for Juliet of the height, because Karen mold is very tall. That's a perfect example of something that should be okay in theater school. I understand you don't want to do it when you're charging $400 a ticket on Broadway.
1 (59m 38s):
We're in a film where the camera's going to be jacked up, but like, but just cast. And sometimes, and sometimes I would think that, and maybe they do it now. Like sometimes you would say, why not? No. Cause it's obvious when someone wants a rule, right? So whoever wants this rule so badly, for whatever reason, they've never been cast and whatever, give them the role, let them do the role. Like maybe it's, maybe it's not, it's a long shot, but that's what school's about is long shots and learning. Right? It's like, let, let the person do this. You know, they're dying to play Romeo. Just let them play Romeo.
1 (1h 0m 19s):
Yeah.
3 (1h 0m 19s):
Yeah. Okay. And excuse me, the, if, if, if you don't mind, you know, now that you guys have you, of course, but I'm just saying the play was set in the middle east.
2 (1h 0m 31s):
Right. Very
3 (1h 0m 32s):
Last time I checked I'm Jordanian.
2 (1h 0m 35s):
Right?
3 (1h 0m 36s):
The play Romeo Lord Capulet he was Jewish. I'm sorry. He was the Jewish character, but yeah, I get it. I totally get it. I totally get it. And I agree with Steven on this one, because it just seemed like, it seemed like we are in a learning environment and let's learn. And if you're going to, if you're going to just cast people because whatever, then, then what's the point of going to the, to the fricking school and spending, spending $16,000 a year. I don't know what it is today, but
1 (1h 1m 10s):
It's like 48 or some craziness
3 (1h 1m 13s):
For paying student loans for three years, three years of, you know, every now and then some BS. Okay. Other than that, you know, the two best teachers that I had over there, arguably as Dr. Bella
1 (1h 1m 43s):
She did she help you? Do you feel like she helped you as a teacher?
3 (1h 1m 47s):
Oh, she was. She, she, she, I am in her debt, you know, when it comes to acting and stuff like that. I think, I think she finally, I think she was the one that I finally, I realized what it's like to feel the, you know, like with the apple and, you know, I didn't know. It's like the Pandora box thing that she was talking about. And then it just like a light bulb over my head. It's like, oh my God, the feel what it's like to be in winter, you know, even though you're on the stage and it's hot, you gotta like, as if it's 40 below zero, she really, that, that, that, that technique, that acting technique was just incredible.
3 (1h 2m 28s):
I am forever in her dad and she is awesome. She's an automation rest in peace. And I, a couple of great stories about her is one that when she would like to meet her students before class, so we will walk into her office and talk and I'm sitting there in the office, she's looking at the hair. She goes, okay. Oh yeah, that doesn't sound English. And I said, oh, well, it's, it's Jordanian. I'm from the police. It's Jordanian. She goes, oh, well, you know, I'm Jewish. And I remember talking to my dad, I said, dad, I, I have to talk to this Jewish professor.
3 (1h 3m 9s):
You just say we're cousins. Okay. Because we are just say that don't rock the boat. Okay. So when she said they're doing, you know, I'm Jewish. And I said, well, well, yeah, I do. I do. But you know, being Jordanian and you being Jewish, you know, we're, we're practically cousins. So, you know, it's great, right. Without a drop of a dime, she goes, well, we might be cousins over, not exactly kissing cousins.
2 (1h 3m 38s):
Oh, that's hilarious. By the way, in case you don't know, I might have mentioned this on the podcast. Once before there exists on the internet, a Hastick interview with Joseph Loic and Bella it kin, okay. Was it conducted by studs, Terkel? It might've been, or some radio project. And the two of them talking about their approaches to acting and to teaching acting is really, really good. Yeah. You got to check it out. Right. So she really helped me. W we didn't, neither one of us had either one of those teachers, unfortunately, but we love,
3 (1h 4m 13s):
She, she was great. And I would give her ride home, poor thing. You know, she, you know, her husband, Frank was very ill at the time and she was like, oh, muck. And you're giving me a ride home. And I'm like, yes. Yes. Ma'am. And I was like, oh, you'll cause kind of a mess there. What'd you just get in the car.
2 (1h 4m 34s):
We know you had a car. That's K that's it wasn't that useful for people in school? Did you, and you messed up, I guess all the MFA's probably lived in apartments or was there any dorm living for MFS?
3 (1h 4m 45s):
No, no, no. Don't limit for MFA. So we had to live in apartments and my first apartment was a studio. And then I think the second year I moved in with, with Eric, from school and then we had a former student. I don't know if you remember John Soldani by any chance familiar. He was first year grad. And then I think he was cut from the program after the first year, but he came back to Chicago. So we were roomies. And then I met my girlfriend who was also a student at DePaul, Alicia hall. Right. So we, we were together. So we moved in together, I think, mid third year, something like that.
3 (1h 5m 29s):
I'm not sure, but yeah. And then I stayed in Chicago after graduation. I just decided to stay in Chicago and did get quite a bit of theater in Chicago and then decided to do the LA thing. And,
1 (1h 5m 41s):
Okay. So, so I just have a question about what was your experience like of the warning system and the cutting system where you weren't?
3 (1h 5m 49s):
Oh, good question. Good question. Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's, I think it took the attention away from the program because I think all the students were more concerned about the warning, getting warned and getting caught than anything, and that affected their performance in class and it affected their performance on stage my opinion. I remember some friends of mine who were just scared and I admit I was very, very nervous, but when I didn't get warned, then all of a sudden I was able to concentrate on school. I was like classes where the people that were warned, all they can think about what I can do to not get kicked out of the class.
3 (1h 6m 31s):
And then next thing you know, it just, it just really, really was detrimental to their performance in my opinion.
2 (1h 6m 38s):
But it took the focus
3 (1h 6m 40s):
Away. Oh yeah. Never worn. I was the only, I was the only male that wasn't warrant. All the male actors were warned except for me. And we ended up having eight graduate students, three men and five women, which I mean Derek smart, Eric Hayes and myself, and then the five women, Denise home, Heather Ireland, pat Tiedemann Kendra. I forgot her last name. Thank you. And Alicia, Alicia, Alicia was in the other class. Lisa was in the other, but I remembered you guys remember a teacher named Susan Lee.
2 (1h 7m 24s):
Her name has come up at times on this podcast. Yes,
3 (1h 7m 30s):
She was my advisor. She was the one that told me whether I was warned or not, or kicked out or not. And she said the most procurator thing. And I'm not sure if it was from the professors, but she said, well, you're not cut. You're not warned. We just don't know what to do with you. I just looked at her. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, you're, you're, you know, I don't remember the conversation.
1 (1h 7m 55s):
Did she say that she raised, she say something about being a, from the middle east or
3 (1h 8m 3s):
Yeah, something like that. And I said, well, why don't you, why don't you and your professors just ask me and find out what you can do. Right? I mean, just I'm middle Eastern doesn't mean, I don't know how to act girl. You there.
1 (1h 8m 23s):
Wait a minute. So wait a minute.
3 (1h 8m 25s):
There's more than one professor that kind of, oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I'm not going to mention any names, but
2 (1h 8m 32s):
There was quite a few.
1 (1h 8m 35s):
Yeah. Right? To say that, that, that being from the middle east, my guesses, people were assholes about it. Like right. Like racist, racist, assholes.
3 (1h 8m 50s):
I mean, and that's what was going to be NASA, regardless of what race you are. So, you know, you're going to be an asshole. You're going to be an asshole. If you are a mean person, you are a mean person. It has nothing to do with your gender, your culture, where you come from, you're you, if you're a mean person, you're a mean person having said that there was quite a few people that said some things to me while I was in school, which was very offensive. But what do you want me to do? Fight every person. That's some kind of, you know, I was called many things. I was called camel jockey. I was called by students. Oh, somebody students. Yeah. Mostly by students. You know, I was called no, no, no. It's okay.
3 (1h 9m 31s):
Hey, that's you know, you, you grow from it. There was, there was one person that called me a word. I don't think I can say it on this podcast, but it's a, it's like, whoa.
2 (1h 9m 42s):
Well, well, we've heard so much about from every alum of color that we've talked to, is this thing that you're describing of maybe they even got selected for the program with the idea, oh, you know, we don't have anybody who looks like this in our program, but then it became, we can,
1 (1h 10m 2s):
We don't have any money.
2 (1h 10m 3s):
We can only find a role for that person. If it's clearly identified in the text that that person is that ethnicity. Meanwhile, all the white actors could be up for any role. Right. That, that was sort of the default. Like if you're white, then you can play anything. But if you're not white, then you, then you have to play a role that's written for whatever your ethnicity is.
3 (1h 10m 27s):
I agree with that. And yeah. And I think, I think Christina dare kind of broke the window on that with Romeo and Juliet, by casting Leonard Roberts as Romeo, you know, an African-American man. And he was great in the role. He was great. Absolutely. You know, she passed me as, you know, as a Jewish man, you know, even though I'm there, I like that. I I'm playing against type. This is, these are the rules that I would like to be challenged with. And unfortunately I wasn't challenged with over there. And I think the school to your saying, Gina, I think the school was just kinda like, eh, let's just bring this middle Eastern guy. See what happens. Let's get this African-American person. Let's see what happens. Let's get this Indian person. Let's see what happens. And nothing happened, nothing happened.
3 (1h 11m 8s):
And, and by the third year, by the third year, I was just, I was done. I was done. After, after Shakespeare, Susan Lee, I was done. I was done. She, she was a hard teacher. She was a hard teacher to deal with both academically. And you know, personally it's just, just was hard. It was hard to deal with her. I'm not, I know Bobby, some students have some harsher words for her, but again, I was going back to what I said earlier, Eric and I were pretty much marked by her that we were not serious about Shakespeare.
3 (1h 11m 48s):
And I was very serious about it. I just wanted, I remember students coming up to me, they tried to avoid being partners with us. And then I had one partner telling me, Hey, you better not fool around or do this. You know, you gotta be serious. I said, what the hell is wrong with you? And then when they find out the real me, and then it's like, wow, that's totally different than what I'm hearing about you. And I'm like,
2 (1h 12m 11s):
Yeah, this is serious. Is my lasting impression of you. I would never have said that you were anything but very serious.
3 (1h 12m 21s):
I appreciate that. I really do. I appreciate that. I was very serious about that. I wanted to go to LA and be a film and television actor. I want to work with these people. I put that in my head. I mean, theater is great and I love theater and I want to continue doing theater. And hopefully I am soon. I'll fill you in later, but I am ready. I, when I was in, I said, I'm ready to go to LA, okay, ready to do this. And 1999, I went there as a, for a visit. And I said, damn the habit. This is it. I'm not going to deal with with 20 below zero weather anymore. Number one.
3 (1h 13m 2s):
But that was my Mo, but the theater school, the theater school, I just couldn't wait for graduation day. I just couldn't wait. I just wanted to get out. I wanted to get out. It just, I don't know if you guys experienced it. I don't, I'm not sure about the four year program. Do you guys have a, an exit acting class that you guys take or Okay. We have Jane alderman too, but we also had bill brown. He was an actor that came in, did that. Yeah. And, and it just reached a point where the 30, I felt like the school gave up on us, on the flirt here. They were just bringing anybody in the fill in, just get them out of here, get on it.
3 (1h 13m 46s):
But Jane Jane alderman was one of my favorite classes because she cast the show. The TV shows, whatever that came in, the Chicago and all that stuff.
1 (1h 13m 59s):
No, I just was going to say, ask it. You stayed in Chicago. When did you graduate? In night?
3 (1h 14m 4s):
I graduated in 96 and I left three years. I left three years later.
1 (1h 14m 8s):
So you did theater in between, and then you came to
2 (1h 14m 11s):
LA for a visit and you
3 (1h 14m 13s):
Just straight upstate. Yeah, no, no. I went back to move cause I had to go back, pack everything I could put in my Honda accord and drove from Chicago to Los Angeles. I just packed everything I could possibly pack in that little car. And I, I remember Jane alderman. She, I would help her out with her auditions. And I asked her if I, you know, what do you think about, you know, me going to LA, I'd like to go. And she looked at me, she goes, oh mark. You're not going to make it. And I like, yeah. And I said, Jane, come on. That's not nice. She goes, no, no, no. I mean, not in full sincerity. It's a tough, it's a tough thing.
3 (1h 14m 53s):
Tough thing out there. And you know, it takes a lot of guts. And I said, well, I have the guts and I'm going to do it. And your discouragement is all the encouragement I need because now you challenged me. She wasn't being vicious about it. I mean, she wasn't being mean about, she was just being matter of fact. And that is Jane alderman. Jane Oldman is matter of fact, you know, she's not going to sugarcoat it for you. She's going to tell you straight out. And that's what I loved about her. I loved about her because she was straightforward.
2 (1h 15m 23s):
Yeah. You knew you that you didn't feel unclear about where?
3 (1h 15m 28s):
No, no, no, no. I, you know, to me, I think I made it. I've worked on television. I've done a lot of TV. I've done a lot of, oh, I did a movie with Anthony Hopkins called bad company. It was an action. Packed a thriller. Also with Chris rock, I've worked with Gary Sinise on criminal minds. I've worked with Tommy Lee Jones on the us marshals. I've worked with some elitist actors. I mean, people that you know that, Hey,
2 (1h 15m 58s):
Yes, what we're going to be interviewing Joe Montana. Pretty soon
3 (1h 16m 2s):
I told my son, he better remember me. My God. We were the two oldest people during the, you know, we do those alumni things. You know, when the students come for the showcases and we sit down, Joe and I are the oldest oldest two. They're Like, Hey man, thank God you're here because I was the oldest one too.
2 (1h 16m 25s):
You still do that. Do you still participate in
3 (1h 16m 27s):
This whenever they invite me?
2 (1h 16m 29s):
So what do you think of like the recent crop? Cause we we've talked to many, many people from our year and we've talked to a handful of people who just graduated or in their last year, but actually we've hardly talked to anybody in between like people who graduated 10 years ago. Anything you can share with us about what you observed about subsequent classes that came out to LA after our, after your year.
3 (1h 16m 54s):
Good question I did about, I think I did about a dozen of these alumni thing. Yeah, I did about a dozen. I always tell John Bridges. I said, if I'm available at any time, you know, I'm here to talk. Especially with me being an ethnic actor, you know, an actor of diversity would probably be helpful and useful to see somebody there. And the beginning of those alumni, you know, after I started doing was they were very attentive. They were very, you know, you know, really want asked genuine questions. The last one I did, They were on their phones, which was very, very disrespectful in my opinion, you know, we're, we're, we're taking the time out of our day to sit down and talk to you and tell, you know, what it's like to be in LA.
3 (1h 17m 42s):
What it's like to be in New York and half to three quarters of the students that were there were on their phones. You know, my wife noticed it. My wife comes to these. She's really good friends with John Bridges. They met years ago. And so it's a nice reunion, but she noticed and told me, she goes, you don't have to. I said, I know I was Joe and I were sitting there just like, you know, watching them. And it just that's, that's the,
1 (1h 18m 8s):
Are these students that were there for the showcase and that are like, oh, maybe they're like, so that's another thing it's like, I feel like people get so into like, oh my God, do I have any meetings? Does anyone want to see me do a bit of that? That we can't be present with like, oh my gosh, here's some people who are doing the job I want to do.
3 (1h 18m 28s):
Yup. Yup. And especially it's, it's a treat to have Joe Montana there too, because he is, I mean, he's on, you know, CSI the criminal minds, you know, series, which is extremely popular series. And you would want to talk to this, man. I want to talk to this man. And I'm sitting next to him. Hey Joe, I have some questions. Why don't you cast me so
2 (1h 18m 50s):
Well, there's two things. I mean, one thing is what's been probably true since the beginning of time is everybody who's at that showcase thinks I'm
2 (1h 19m 32s):
And even if you don't want to listen to Joe Montana speak act like you do, you don't want Joe Montana to think you're blowing him off because you and or, or Omar. I mean, anybody could be in any position in the future to hire you. You can't squander any chance.
3 (1h 19m 53s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 19m 54s):
I was just going to say, looking back like, and Gina, we've talked about this. It's like, I, I wish that I had not squandered, but I think it's every generation we have. We, because we don't yet know how precious these connections are. Like, like I thought, you know, like I've talked about it. I thought these people that were offering to help me were, were idiots and assholes. What? I mean, I could see myself watching Amar and Joe Montana and being like, I wonder how cute am I? I'm cute.
3 (1h 20m 32s):
Yeah. What did they say? Oh, I remember my showcase. And I ran the Joe asked him the question I want. I said, Joe, can you give me some insight as to what would it be like for an ethnic actor as myself to be successful in the business of acting in film and television here in LA today, you know, asking, you know? Yeah. And he goes, he goes, that's a very, I remember he was like, well, he was kind of fumbling a little bit. How do you answer a question like that? Right. I mean
1 (1h 21m 2s):
98 or
3 (1h 21m 2s):
Whatever, 1996. And I'm like, what's it like for a middle Eastern man, like myself, what? You know? And, but he answered me and I talked to him and it was great. It was awesome. And you know, he said all he said, I remember it. He said, look, you just have to go and audition and do the best, but be prepared, be prepared. And you know, you, it's important to have a good agent that sees your talent other than your look. But, you know, he goes, be, be prepared that your look is what they're going to cast too as well. So, you know, that's always good. And I took advantage of that. I took
2 (1h 21m 37s):
Well, so I've heard middle Eastern actors describe, you know, probably also before the turn of the millennium only, ever being called in for terrorists or thugs or whatever has that shifted at all.
3 (1h 21m 56s):
My, my, my casting has been much better in the latter years, but in the beginning it was pretty much my agent, my agent was very good, is very good. I'm still with him to this day, but he would send me out on a variety of rules, not just the Arab rules, but he would send me out on a variety and I would get called in for those. But if you look at my resume, most of it is middle Eastern characters and whatnot. And again, the turn of events, nine 11 and all that stuff, Hollywood was just, and I thought my career was over
2 (1h 22m 30s):
So soon into it. You must've been,
3 (1h 22m 33s):
I said, I'm done. They're not going to Cass Arabs right now. We're the enemy now. And next thing you know, I was auditioning eight, nine times a week for shows and all that stuff. They, they were casting all nine 11 things. You just look at all the shows that came out in the mid two thousands to 2010, pretty much every network had some show about some counterterrorism group going after terrorists. Hello door was knocking all the time. I was working a lot to say,
2 (1h 23m 3s):
Is there any kind of a professional of actors that are middle Eastern? Like, is there any kind of a group, you know, forum for sort of talking about this stuff? Yeah.
3 (1h 23m 15s):
I mean, there was at one point in the beginning, a friend of mine started a forum where we would discuss our casting and discuss, you know, what it's like. And, and it just got to the point where it was, everyone was complaining, not getting called in and it wasn't even, it, it shifted focus. And that's when I just said, okay, I want to talk about the diversity of acting and let's talk about what we can do. Y'all you just complaining about that game called in? And it's like, okay, that's not a core principle. That's so I do converse with some middle Eastern actors that I'm still friends with, you know, over the years. And you know, their casting is still there terrorists where I'm getting called in for other stuff.
3 (1h 23m 60s):
And I think that has a lot to do with my training from DePaul, from the conservatory. So the biggest positive note I could give about the theater school is that it did prepare me for auditions. And let me expand beyond my look, my ethnicity, you know, Shakespeare is a good example. I did a, I did two short films on Shakespeare, what they called Shakespeare's pawn. And what I did was I took these monologues and spice them up a little bit. And I had these oversized chess pieces and there they were the audience and they moved around throughout the whole thing. And it was just me doing monologues because I would watch Shakespearian actors go on stage with a white shirt, black slacks and recite Shakespeare.
3 (1h 24m 48s):
And I said, wouldn't it be great if I shot a short film and then I would shoot on location in different areas. I'll give you guys the website. If you guys want to watch it, we'll put it in our show notes, my wife directed both of them. And you know, but as you can see, my wife's an artist all for artworks on the wall. I'll put her website too as well. She's, she's amazing. Yeah.
1 (1h 25m 15s):
It's your dream like? I'm just curious, like, what's your dream roles, like some roles that you haven't played yet that you would love to, like, what's your jam? What would you love to do?
3 (1h 25m 24s):
Oh man. I mean, take your pick. I I'd love to play suspense, thrillers, you know, the film noir type of thing where you're wearing that fedora, but you know, modernize it a little bit. That's the role of a lifetime to play that role? I mean, there's a film called sweet smell of success, Burt, Lancaster and Tony Curtis. And that's the role I want to play the, the, the Burt Lancaster rule where he's, I don't know if you've seen the movie or not, but there's a scene. It's great. It's part of the film noir. It's on TCM. It's on at 10 o'clock Eastern standard time. Catch it if you can. There. I think, I think it's great.
3 (1h 26m 5s):
And film the war is what I love to do. The old films. Those are the films that you want to do. Those are the ones that true raw acting, none of this CGI crap and Marvel and stuff, you know, nothing against Marvel. Cause you know, I might get cast in one, but I'm just saying Marvel is great and that's wonderful. I'm old school film, camera, black and white. So the role of a lifetime needs to play a film noir type of character in a suspense thriller. Those types of roles are the roles.
2 (1h 26m 39s):
I love that tracks because another thing I really remember about you was your amazing leather motorcycle jacket, the leather black leather
3 (1h 26m 48s):
Jacket. I still have it.
2 (1h 26m 51s):
That's
3 (1h 26m 51s):
Fantastic.
2 (1h 26m 53s):
So that, that tracks that you would, you know, that you're you're you like mystery and intrigue.
3 (1h 26m 60s):
Oh wow. Very good. Gina. Very good.
5 (1h 27m 13s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: Is Mercury in retrograde?, thought ideation,
Let Me Run This By You: holding the hope for someone else when you're not feeling it yourself
Interview: Centenary university, Cedar Point, dyslexia, Ed Graczyk, stage combat, John Jenkins, B.K.S. Iyengar yoga, Burn This, movement to music, therapy, improvisation, Sean Gunn, Lee Kirk, Johnna Adams, No End of Blame, Paul Holmquist, Ben Nye, Tisch, Hot l Baltimore, Sharon Gopfert, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, Les Liaisons Dangereuses at Shattered Globe theatre, demons, Susan Bennett, Agamemnon at European Repertory Theatre, Leonard Roberts, vanity, the Wolf Pack Production Company, Zach Helm, Bridget Quebodeaux, Jimmy McDermott, Rob Hess, Hunting Cockroaches, Paul Tei, cancer.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina
2 (31s):
Dumb ass. I'm sitting here for 10 minutes. I could have done all of this already. Hi friends. How are you?
1 (39s):
Oh, I don't know. Like I feel today, like just, I'm not feeling it, like, today's like, like shit keeps going wrong this morning. Like the dog woke up too early. Like, what are you doing up at three 15? Nobody likes that. Like go back to bed. So, and then I just, you know, it's interesting. I've seen a lot of people online lately talking about, and one of them was a scientist talking about how mercury in retrograde is not a thing it's like not a real thing and people blame it, but okay, fine. That's fine. But also we need something to blame Stefan. So I feel like blaming more Korea planet in retrograde is the least harmful thing we could do.
1 (1m 25s):
Absolutely. Like, fuck the planet. Like I'm going to blooper Korean record. Right. So anyway, I just really feel like if there is such a thing as we're curing Richard raid, I was feeling it this morning. Just like, like shit is not going, like my husband and I were not communicating right this morning. And like, I just over stupid stuff about him getting a burrito, breakfast burrito, like it doesn't matter. The point is like, I'm not, I just one of those days where I was like, okay, I gotta make sure, like before I came and talked to you, I was like, let me blow this candle out in the other room because it's one of those mornings where like I could see, I'm not going to set myself up for more, for more failure.
1 (2m 5s):
So that's how I feel. I feel like a little bit tired and, and PMSC, but I'm okay. I'm here. That's good.
2 (2m 15s):
That is a gift of being older. That when you can recognize you've just done it enough to be like, Hmm. When I start doing this, then it doesn't go too great for me. So I better do this other thing.
1 (2m 30s):
Right. It goes really badly if I, right. If I blame people instead of mercury in retrograde. And if I don't, don't make things easier on myself. So like today I have remind me, I just have to get off our call at night at eight fifty five, if that's okay. Can we end there not this one, but the next one, anyway, I have a thought, a thought ideation group. I told you how I do do I, did I tell you how to do these thought ideation groups? No, I've never heard of this whatsoever. Well, okay. So there's a company that hires creative thinkers to sort of join these, like those, you know, how you get tagged to do those marketing things and you get paid like, you know, like a focus group, right?
1 (3m 19s):
So we're like moles on the inside of the focus group that are hired to basically make the conversation more lively. Yeah. Wow. So, so, so it's me and a bunch of like, so, okay. It's a, it's a company in Chicago and my friend was like, you know, the, money's not, it's not steady, but it's good money when you do it, would you be interested in doing this thing called thought ideation? I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about, but okay. So it was a company that, that they put together groups of creatives and then charge companies a lot of money to bring us in.
1 (4m 5s):
And we make some of the money to get their market research going on a certain product or item. And so a lot of times when you have those focus groups, like nobody talks, there's no, you know, average Joe and Betty Schmoe are there for the money. Of course they're not there. You know, th th th their jam is not thinking like that's not anyway. So they hire us to sort of go in and be the, and sometimes it's only create like ideators or whatever we're called. And sometimes we're mixed with the general consumer. And I don't know what that one is, what what's happening today, but you can't be like, oh, I'm special.
1 (4m 46s):
You know what I mean? So you have to sort of blend in, so you can just like performative Performante of performative, but you also have to like, sort of be engaging. It's interesting work. It's also right. As I get older, I'm like, oh, I want to be the people running the, the group. Like whenever I ran these groups, I look at the marketing cause it's the marketing department of whatever product. And I'm like, this, this is a cool job. I just missed my calling as one of these market research. Like people that are probably making more than I'm making, but I'm yet I haven't done that. So, so that's what I'm doing at nine, 9:00 AM on zoom. Now they're all on zoom for, you know, a couple hours, you make a couple hundred bucks.
1 (5m 26s):
Okay. What's the product today. It's the some kind of fitness situation talking about fitness equipment. So the questions for the panel is like, would you be likely to use this? Or like, how could you make this product better? It's usually like, how could this be better? Like what speaks to you? They're really into it's fascinating. Cause they're really into like story to like, what kind of story does this, this product tell? Or like, it's interesting. They're really looking at like ways to make things better are things practical and user-friendly and right.
1 (6m 10s):
And like what feelings do these evokes this candle evoke or whatever the thing is. And, and then there's also like these exercises you do sometimes that are just seemingly unrelated, but somehow tie back into products, whatever.
2 (6m 25s):
So you're just behaving as another person on the panel. You're just, you're answering the same questions as everybody else, but you're your liveliness has meant to be infectious.
1 (6m 37s):
Got it. Okay. Well,
2 (6m 39s):
That's a perfect job for you.
1 (6m 40s):
Well, thank you. Thank you. I, you know, I liked doing it and also it's really it's yeah, you can't make a living at it, but you could. I asked, you know, like, oh, could I join the actual organization? And that they're like, this is like a one, two man operation. We don't have money for, you know, whatever. But so anyway, that's what I'm doing at nine. And so anyway, that's what I, I just got like back to back stuff, which is great. And it's also like we have a dog and miles started this new job and we're in a fucking fucking one bedroom apartment.
1 (7m 24s):
And it hasn't been a problem because none of us had real jobs. So like, or like permanent jobs. And when miles did contract work, they don't give a fuck where you do it, how you do it, who's in your room. If you're in your bed, they treat you like, like, you know, commodity and you do your thing and you're done. But now there's like a real situation. So I'm like, oh my God. So it's the first time in our marriage that I'm like, oh, we need more space. And I, I see how that happens. Like, it's the same as your life changes. It's just happening later for us where you're like, oh, our life is expanding. We actually need a container. That's going to sort of stretch instead of like, make us insane. So that's, so that's all, that's all feeding into my retrograding minus
2 (8m 8s):
I wonder how that idea about mercury in retrograde first ever even came to be a thing. Like, I guess it has something
1 (8m 15s):
To do with astrology. It's going with Paltrow
2 (8m 18s):
Probably. Well, as for me, I'm ready today, woke up saying I am open it. Dear universe. I am pending a letter to the universe. I am open to an exciting and positive surprise today. I haven't had an exciting and positive surprise since I can't. I can't remember the last time I had an exciting, positive surprise. Okay. So yeah. Bring it on Merck.
2 (8m 59s):
If it's mercury fine, you can bring it on mercury, Saturn Pluto. I'll take anything. I'll take any planet, Uranus, Uranus, as long as it's a gift. As long as it's a gift,
1 (9m 16s):
I'm gonna say your anus. It could be a gift. You know,
2 (9m 20s):
I love situation. I love that. I just it's like a lot of same disease over here. Same disease, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, same these people at the breakfast, lunch and dinner table. Same these conversations about what we have to do today saying these chores seems as close. I'm folding, same Zs emails I'm responding to. So yeah, I mean, to be honest, I could probably engender some more novelty if I just did something different, you know, like it probably would only take me doing something different to have a different or novel sort of experience.
2 (10m 0s):
But one of the thing, one of the characteristics about being in like this Groundhog day, if at all, is that you've sort of are uninclined to do something different. Cause it's just like it, you know, it perpetuates itself, whatever. So, so maybe that's my, maybe that's my task for the day is to try to, I mean, in gender, some change,
1 (10m 20s):
It's an interesting concept because if you look at television, like that's where people get into a lot of weird shit is when they're in the same disease, I'm just thinking of like desperate Housewives and those so like, and a lot of shows breaking bad. Like it's all about the same disease humdrum that we all get into. And then either nature, you know, throws us either benevolent or not so benevolent or a surprise, or we create a situation so that we're not in the same disease anymore, which is why, you know, people have do all kinds of stuff. It's interesting as humans we need, we need variety. I think some, you know, to mix it up a little bit, you know?
2 (11m 4s):
Absolutely. Did I ever tell you the story about when we first moved to this town, the little town newspaper used to have this, what I thought was the best part of the whole newspaper they've since gotten rid of it where they'd say they pick a day in history of what they were running in the newspaper, because the newspaper had been around for whatever. It was like a hundred years. And they'd say, you know, on this day in history and it was, but it was always something like really local to our town, which was kind of cute. I think it was like the first or second week we lived here. I was pregnant with my daughter. We were driving to the city every single day because the boys were not, it was dry at the end of their school year.
2 (11m 54s):
So I wanted them to finish their school year in the city. So we, I had to get up at like four 30 in the morning in order to like, get everything ready to get them to school. And they would like sleep in the car on the way there. It was totally crazy. But so I was feeling very trapped at that time. And the thing in the newspaper was a story about a woman who had gone missing. She was last seen, she had gone next door to her friends to play cards. And that's where her son, I guess when he came home, that's where he usually expected her to be this time when he came home, there was KA ketchup all over the floor and the door was open and the woman was never seen again.
2 (12m 54s):
So the idea was she had pretended to that there was blood she'd had, I don't know why she thought that that would be a convincing thing, I guess. And also why she didn't think it would be traumatizing for her child, but, and she, and somebody had reported seeing her walking down some road, like she just walked away from her life. And I w my reaction to reading that was this mixture of like fear and ex and glee and shame that I was having. That that was a gleeful thought to me, it made such an indelible impression, but there are so many times in my life as a mom where I'm like, I could just see myself what I'd never do it obviously.
2 (13m 43s):
And she was probably very mentally ill, but still just the fantasy of opening the door and walking away and just being like, this is no longer my responsibility. It's just like, still, it gives me a little thrill, something small.
1 (14m 1s):
I can, I don't have, obviously, you know, I don't have children, but I can totally relate. So I have this fantasy when things get too much, I have this very specific, weird fantasy, and it brings me such joy and I tell miles about it. So I pack up the car. I mean, I have no belong. I mean, what am I packing? I pack up my Volvo, my little Volvo Volvo. I pack it up. I take all my money that my mom left me. I buy a fear, a small goat farm in Nashville. This is so crazy. And I go to Nashville and I just live on this goat farm.
1 (14m 41s):
And I just like the neighbors come and visit me. And I don't know anybody. And I start over and I have this new life in this small goat farm in Nashville. And it just feels like, oh my God, it just feels like freedom. It started because it started because Jack White lived in Nashville and I was having all these recurring things about Jack White. So I was like, oh, Hey, I could be there. And then I was like, okay, forget him. Like, who cares? I just want this small, yet interesting life in Nashville where I don't work. I don't know what I would do at the goats, but I, you know, that's the thing about fantasies. You never get,
2 (15m 22s):
You don't have to, you don't have to work out all the logistics, but
1 (15m 24s):
It just seems, it just seems like such a good time.
2 (15m 29s):
It seems like a relief. Well, do you think this is why back in the day, men used to so frequently, like have a second family, just three blocks away and maybe it was, maybe it was originally started because like, maybe this family will be better. Yeah.
1 (15m 44s):
You know, people do everything like maybe, I mean, maybe this job will be better. Maybe this town will be better. Maybe, you know? And I, I mean, because I'm who I am. I think like serial killers have the same thing where like, this kill will be the one that scratches the itch and I will no longer need to do this. Same with drug addicts. Maybe this will be better. It never works. But the fantasy is so seductive. It's like,
2 (16m 12s):
God, that's really interesting to think about a serial killer as also having just a mundane wish to like get relief.
1 (16m 20s):
Everyone is just trying to get relief. And I think that, I think the depression was really set in like, how many families can you have? How many victims, you know, then it becomes, oh, it's, it's, it's, it's really, it's a really seductive trap
2 (16m 36s):
Thinking about serial killers. I want to know what your thoughts are about the potential revelation of who the real Zodiac killer.
1 (16m 45s):
So I have this thing with the Zodiac where I'm just like now permanently annoyed at the whole investing. I'm like, okay, me too.
2 (16m 54s):
What is it? I don't get it.
1 (16m 57s):
I feel like right. It is the longest running terrible investigation that ever was. I mean, oh,
2 (17m 8s):
That could just really bungled, like,
1 (17m 10s):
But continues. It never, it just seems really, really poorly worked all the time. And also I've lost my inch thrill. I've lost the thrill. So now I just saw the thing and I didn't really, what are they saying? Are they saying,
2 (17m 26s):
They're saying, it's this guy named Gary post. I think it's P O S T E. I think that's the name. And I don't know if it's true or not, but the funniest thing was going around on Twitter that this guy who was this Gary posts best Ray died in 2018. This guy was his best friend, us significantly younger guy. And that he would have all these pictures of the two of them on Facebook. And he'd be like, you know, like, you know, fishing with Gary Zodiac question like that, he shot on several occasions. Had been like, never said, I think that's the Zodiac killer, but always be like, Zodiac question.
2 (18m 10s):
I don't know if it's true, but if it is Gary, sorry for the victims, whatever, but that's hilarious. I actually don't really know anything about this. I don't know who he killed or where it was or whenever is
1 (18m 22s):
This story is a creepy one. It's a guy in the fifties, right? Who, late fifties, I believe, early sixties, something like that who definitely targeted couples making out. Right. And he had this burlap sack on his head and then he, so he killed all these, these couples on lover's lane. And then he started sending letters to the, at it's just long drawn out thing. And I just, yeah, I got to say, like, I just became weary of the whole Zodiac thing and it's been so many different people and there's been like 43 movies. I'm just like, oh, it's, I don't know why. It's just, I was a family member.
1 (19m 3s):
You bet your ass. I'd be interested obviously. But I just feel like it's
2 (19m 17s):
I want to run by you as a therapist. You were probably in this position, but I wonder if you've been in this position in other ways, when you have to hold the hope for somebody, when you don't really have it yourself, you're like I'm having this conversation with one of my kids who is basically having the exact same problem that I have, which is he doesn't have any friends because he doesn't relate to anybody in our town.
2 (19m 57s):
And I'm really trying so hard to figure out the way in which this problem as it relates to me, I'm not trying. I mean, I am trying to figure it out related to him, but I'm not going to talk about that on the, on the podcast. Sure. I'm trying really hard to figure out the way in which I know it has something to do with myself centered fear, this inability to relate to other people, but I haven't worked it out yet. And so I'm trying to help him. And I'm basically giving platitudes that I don't even really believe in because I don't know what else to say. I feel it's. I feel it's.
2 (20m 38s):
I feel, I cannot say, yeah, you're right. Everybody here sucks. And nobody's interesting. And you'll probably never have any friends until you move away, which is the feeling that I actually have. And so what I could always go back to as a therapist is like, okay, so, so, so you don't have any friends. So, so then what, what do you, so then how can you find joy in your life? Or so then how can you make meaning out of what you're doing? And, and actually one of the things I was telling him was to try to find a way to be of service, because that's usually a way to get you, you know, a person outside of themselves.
2 (21m 19s):
This concept though is sort of advanced, I think, in a way for somebody his age. But do you know what I'm talking about when you're trying to hold the hope for somebody and how do you manage it and how do you deal with that?
1 (21m 35s):
Well, I'm trying to think of, like, I definitely know this feeling and I also, I'm thinking back to, I remember trying to counsel people are therapize with people when really stuck hard stuff was happening in my own life. It sort of right. It, I know that we don't want to say like, listen, I'm having the same problem too, to your, what I'm understanding is you don't want to say that, but I think you kind of have to say to him, or I have to say to whoever, like I gotta be honest and transparent here.
1 (22m 17s):
Like I I'm actually working with similar things in my life and you don't have to get into them and stuff because I think part of the problem right. Is feeling so isolated. And maybe you guys can turn it. I mean, it sounds kind of crazy, but like maybe you guys could turn it into a project together to try to investigate this town and see what things you could do together. Whether it's like, I don't know what kind of volunteer as stuff, but like maybe you could use it as a bonding experience rather than a, because this is a really good idea. Well, we talk about this on the, on the podcast where it's like, the truth is the truth. Like you feel like in this town, you G not have trouble relating to people.
1 (23m 1s):
And so that's just the truth. It's doesn't mean anyone's doing anything wrong either. You were them. It's just the truth, right? It, same thing with your kiddo. So I think it's like, make it a way, meet, try to make it a way where you guys can team together. So like what I would say to my client or something, it was like, listen, let's talk about ways in which we can work with grief for you. And maybe I'll pick up some because I'm a human. Maybe I'll pick up some tips on the way, but like what has worked in the past or like, so I think you have to join rather than separate, further
2 (23m 35s):
That's right. I just don't know
1 (23m 36s):
Any other way. Right. Because then you've got two people isolated in their own mess
2 (23m 44s):
And otherwise it's me pretending like you
1 (23m 47s):
Don't eat and pretending leads to depression and anxiety for everybody. Like it just does. So when I pretended with clients that everything was fine, like, look, I'm not telling them all my problems. I still have boundaries. I hope I had boundaries, but I definitely did not pretend that like I was, everything was normal. I would be like, yeah, I'm going through a really hard time. My mom is sick, but that doesn't mean I'm not still your therapist and let's go forward. So it's like, yeah, you're the mom, but you also are humanly. And I think that's one of the things that probably, you know, makes parents good. Parents is like being able to, it's a fine line, but being able to be like transparent and say like, man, you're not alone in this problem.
1 (24m 28s):
I have this too. How can we make it better together? My parents never did that by the way. So I always felt isolated and I felt like they felt isolated. So you've got two isolated people in the same roof, which makes for a real shit show.
2 (24m 41s):
Do you think then? And my parents never did that either. Do you think they never did it because nobody ever did it for them and they, and a lot of the times when you were coming to them or you had a problem, your problem mirrored, something in their lives and they felt scared by that. So they tried to tell you the same platitude that their parents tried to tell them that didn't work for them either. Right? My God, why would we do this?
1 (25m 5s):
Because we don't know any
2 (25m 6s):
Rational Daisy chain of like, let's pretend that something, we all know doesn't work works.
1 (25m 12s):
It's like, it's like, because of feet, like you said, fear, it's just fear. It's fear of having to look at, oh my God, I moved like for my parents, it was like, oh my God, the fear of, let me look at how I entered this marriage and what am I doing in this marriage? And what am I doing in my career, whatever it is. Those are really hard things to look at and really could lead to some, maybe having to make changes. And my mom, I can tell you right now did not want to deal with that. And neither did my dad, like it's a lot of work. And on top of, you know, at that time, both having full-time jobs and two children. So like,
2 (25m 50s):
Yeah. And honestly that's also usually, always the answer when something is painful. Not always, but it's often the answer that you just have to go deeper into the pain of it. So you can get to the other side, like I've had that experience in my, you know, primary relationships. Like something feels like it's on the brink of ending it's or, or my perception because of my history is if it's this bad, the only thing that is possible as an outcome is that this relationship will end it and, and I've ended many relationships that way. But then I've had a couple and I drew me in like a couple of experiences where things were so bad and I was convinced and doing the whole morning and everything like being in the real grief of this thing has before it's even ended, because I assume that that's the only answer.
2 (26m 49s):
And then fortunately, you know, the other person, not just making the decision to end things like I would, but saying no, no, no, no. Let's just have this pain and keep doing it and see what's on the other side that was never modeled for me. So it, it always felt like death, like, okay, well, so you and, and maybe my son is going through this too. Like you just, as you're talking about you, just people pleasing people pleasing, you try to figure out the thing that's going to make that, that you think the other person wants until you literally can't take it anymore. And then you just explode leave, catch on the floor, walk down, lock down the road.
2 (27m 32s):
Never to be heard from again, like I feel so many of us, myself included at certain times have, have truly believed. There is no hope on the other side, if something is really bad, then there, then it's only got one final common pathway, which is death and termination over. And so many of these things would be better for us if we would say, but what if it wasn't, what if it was, we just kept going deeper into the pain of it.
1 (28m 5s):
Right. And so I always think of, I always think of like right of my two things of my mentor, Dr. Altman, who would say like, but it could've worked, but like it's possible. Like what if it does work? Like what if this med works or what, like it's possible. And I'd be like, really, this is crazy, but okay. You seem to think it, I don't believe it, but I believe that you believe it because you're real insistent and that we have a good track record. So I always remember that. And I always think of this article. I read about starting off real happy on this Tuesday. But this article I read about people who jumped off the golden gate bridge, the ones who survived every single one, not, not 90%, 100% of people who jumped and lived the first thought out of their mind and they continued to hold onto it.
1 (28m 59s):
And sir, after they survived was I've made a horrible mistake. Things weren't as bad as all this. They never said this was a great idea. So it just reminds me that like it, and I was like, what? So everyone they interviewed now, they didn't have an interview, but I was like shocked that their research showed that, that, that I shouldn't have done this. I've made a horrible mistake is the number one thought that happens upon that jump, that people who lived. So I'm like, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. If that is true, if I'm going to hold that to be true, and these people have lived this shit obviously, and that survived and speaking of survival, right.
1 (29m 44s):
And then I'm going to see what's on the other side. I can see whether it's a small pain or a large pain, like it's uncomfortable. It feels intolerable, but is it really intolerable? And that's something that you probably, you know, tolerate,
2 (29m 58s):
Is it really intolerable? Or am I just telling myself that because I've never actually tested the hypothesis? Like, because actually what is intolerable? Right? I mean, like, we were very adoptable as humans, we can learn to tolerate a lot of things
1 (30m 15s):
It's uncomfortable and it feels horrible and feels terrible and painful, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure not seeing it through actually feels better or doing something else. I just don't have the data that, that is true. Although when someone's going through it, they it's like, especially the, you know, like I was thinking about clients that have borderline personality disorder that who the tolerance for, for uncomfortable feelings is excruciating and small and has to be grown right. To, to show like, you can do it, you have resilience, but you ha they never learned that. So it's like learning and it's so painful to grow and learn.
1 (30m 56s):
It is so fucking painful. Yeah.
2 (30m 59s):
It literally feels like, oh, trying to go grow a new skin and you know, and shed out of your old one, which, you know, when you just say it like that, it sounds like it would be something like very pleasant, but really, no, it feels like, you know, it feels like you're going to explode or it feels like, yeah,
1 (31m 18s):
It's violent. If you watch a butterfly transition or a caterpillar, but transitioning to a butterfly it's violent and gross and dark and disgusting. And
2 (31m 31s):
Then it's beautiful and it looks
1 (31m 32s):
Like they're going to die, but they don't. So I guess we got to keep going here as well.
2 (31m 37s):
Keep going, keep going,
1 (31m 39s):
Keep,
0 (31m 41s):
Well
1 (31m 50s):
Today on the podcast we're talking with Steven Davis, Steven Davis went to the theater school at DePaul university with us, and then he went on to do so many things. He's an actor, a stage combat pro. He's been a makeup artist and now he's an educator. He's a lovely storyteller and a kind human. So please enjoy our conversation with Stephen Davis.
3 (32m 20s):
Not to say that I was part of that.
2 (32m 23s):
Steven Davis, congratulations. You survived theater
1 (32m 27s):
School.
3 (32m 28s):
Did I did. And I work at one now. So you know,
2 (32m 32s):
So yeah. So you're on, you've been on both sides of the equation. Now you're in New Jersey. Are you from New Jersey? No,
3 (32m 39s):
Actually I was born in Santa Barbara, California, where boss sends people to leave her house when they can't sleep on the couch anymore. So I was born in Santa Barbara. My dad was a professor at Ohio state at Santa UCFB. And then he got a full time tenured position at Ohio state university. And so when I was living in Columbus, Ohio, we either went to Cedar point, right? Gina, Cedar point or King's island for, for our trips. Those who either went to dusty.
1 (33m 10s):
How old were you when you moved from Santa
3 (33m 11s):
Barbara? For my, my parents. So I was four. When we moved from Santa Barbara to Columbus, I'm a Buckeye. I, I I've always been a Buckeye. So I grew up with my dad being a professor there. And it's, it's a good place to grow up, but I wouldn't want to live there.
1 (33m 31s):
Is that why you went into higher education? Probably because of your dad?
3 (33m 35s):
The crazy thing is my dad always says like having, having understood what higher education is like from my experience, why would you want to do that? Right? It's it's, I, I, I think that at an early age, I discovered that I, because I'm, I'm dyslexic, I have a different way of learning. I don't learn a, to B I learned five different ways of going from a to B. And because of that and having some awful experiences with teachers growing up that, you know, Mrs. Grimmer telling me in fourth grade that I was gonna amount to nothing.
3 (34m 16s):
You know, things like that, that the power that you've expressed in this podcast about the power of teachers and the ways in which, what they say has lasting impressions on us. What I discovered in my time at the theater school and my time after the theater school, I really enjoyed helping other people and to learn. I was a makeup assistant under Nancy Brisky. You guys did the makeup work for, into the woods. I worked with that. I helped supply, oh my gosh, all my benign makeup up there. That, Yeah. And, and, and here's a great example, Nancy Brisky.
3 (34m 57s):
I was a makeup assistant under her. I did that for two years. That was my work study job. And, you know, as I found out through these podcasts, my job was to provide pancake makeup to first-year students, to paint mussels on Leonard Roberts body, not need any pancakes.
1 (35m 15s):
2 (35m 38s):
Is what you're saying.
3 (35m 39s):
No, Leonard is a star because Leonard is a star. Leonard is Leonard. Leonard can make talk about storytelling. He can make a trip to quick check or seven 11, depending on where you live, sound like an event that everyone needs to be a part of. I mean, the man is one of the best storytellers I've ever seen, heard, been around. I love that man. And he is part of the reason I survived the theater school. He, oh yeah. Amy Farrow, Kevin Fox, John Adams, like these are the people Siler Thomas. These are the people that helped me get through what was at times and extremely difficult period in my life to, to that point.
3 (36m 24s):
And in terms of what you've had discussions with the students at the alums, I should say of student Justin Ross, amazing. I was blown away by his interview. I'm like, oh my gosh, this kid has it together. Like all the things that he was doing, I'm like, oh my gosh, the future looks bright. Holy cow. But you know, my, my parents divorced when I was six, my dad started acting in plays. I wanted to be a part of that. I got into a show when I was nine. I was, I played little Charlie in a production of flowers for Algernon that
2 (37m 2s):
Plant actually
3 (37m 3s):
Beautiful ed gray, sick, who wrote come back to the five and dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean. He wrote the play. I mean, he directed the play. He wrote come back to the five den on Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean. And it was my first instance with stage combat because in that show, the mother of little Charlie comes in and I'm touching my sister. And she smacks the, the, the kid and ed Gracyn told the actress, just do it. And so I'm sitting there leaning over the crib and the actors came in and locked and I'm nine years old and I'm like, ears ringing, jaw hurts and everything. And I'm like, and they're like, do it again. And I'm like, okay.
3 (37m 45s):
And I get smacked again. And already my first instance in theater, I'm discovering the importance of learning, how to do something for the stage versus reality. So, you know, that had a major impact in my studying on stage combat. And, and I'm a fight choreographer now and doing a lot of different things. So it was a major impact to me, but I did. I got,
2 (38m 9s):
We've never, we've never really talked that much about stage combat on here. And, you know, my, my kind of lasting impression is like, I feel we all, maybe didn't take it quite seriously enough when we were doing it. But actually it turns out to have been one of the most important parts of what we did just in terms of like awareness and, and, and also something that not necessarily people that age realize is the awareness of your impact on the other person when you're on stage, whether you're doing a fight scene or not just the impact of your body and your energy and space. And that has always been a gift of yours, I think, is being very aware of your
1 (38m 55s):
Very aware. Yeah. And I think, I think it's like really for, for me in the stage combat, like I actually got to know my classmates on a deeper level than I ever had before and the trust, because I was like, wait a second, you're going to do what
3 (39m 10s):
We're going to do. Second year, first intro, you know, I had Rick first year and then I had th David ass Kali second year, and I had Don Elko for my first intro. And it was hot L Baltimore. And we were working on Atlanta Wilson's play. And of course, which monologue did I do to get into the school? Jen, if I'm going to talk about Lanford Wilson, which play did I do? You did
1 (39m 36s):
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
3 (39m 43s):
Yeah, exactly. It's like every single podcast you're like, is it burn? This is it burden. So, but anyways, I was in Don
3 (40m 32s):
But here's the thing. You need to do something about this, because if you don't do something about this, it's going to hold you back. You said, you need to find a tutor. The next day I found a tutor. And I'm glad that I did because the reality is, is it would have held me back and it would have been an issue in the school if it continued to be an issue. And it also pointed the fact is I should have done that research. I should have spent that time before rehearsal to do the work. And I hadn't, my laziness had gotten that
2 (41m 8s):
Easiness is not a word that occurs to me when I think of you.
3 (41m 13s):
Well, it's the thing is, is like the work we, you know, laziness, we're not taught to be lazy in the theater school. You know, we're taught to work ourselves to the bone. Many of your, many of the people on the podcast that talked about, I remember Blake Hackler talking about like the fatigue factor and the reality is like, we're taught that, but in an area that is an issue for me, which I should address. I got timid and lazy. I'm doing a reading of the seagull this weekend and, and like Russian names. I'm like, oh, Zarik, Naya, and Constantine
3 (41m 56s):
And it, instead of sometimes facing it, I run away from it. And that I have the same,
1 (42m 2s):
Same thing with my health and doctors. I mean, it's the same, what I am afraid of. I can inadvertently or something side door laziness where I'm like, well, I don't want to deal with my blood pressure. So I'm just going to eat sodium. That's not the way it works. Like, and, and, but anyway, it's a, it's a specific kind of like self centered fear, laziness. It's like a, it's not like, oh, I'm just going to be lazy. It's like, I'm going to ignore the specific,
2 (42m 30s):
It's an intentional avoidance of something that's anyway, in point.
3 (42m 33s):
Yeah. Yeah. And so that's an area that I got lazy and he, he was gracious, but he was very specific. And the one thing is, is like, I took that note and I'm like, okay, Steven, you can either do something about this, or this can become an issue that can hold you back. And so I addressed it head on
2 (42m 57s):
And it
3 (42m 57s):
Helped them assuming, oh my gosh, the weekly sessions that I had with my tutor helped me immensely and, and, and getting more comfortable with texts and getting more comfortable and breathing. And then, you know, being able to address things ahead of time, finding the ways to address that ahead of time so that I could keep moving forward. So,
2 (43m 17s):
Wow. So then what w describe the distance between when you presumably left theater school and were planning to be a famous actor, and when you started working at theater school.
3 (43m 29s):
Okay. Well, right out of school, John Jenkins had gotten ill and he had needed someone to teach movement to music. So Sharon Gobert and myself, co-taught his class for him, which was awesome. And then I was brought in to be, I was brought in to teach the stage combat class, as well as a, as like an assistant. And those were both amazing experiences. And those jobs actually led to work later on because they were on my resume and they were like, oh, you you've taught stage combat. And so I ended up teaching stage combat for summer professional training program and all these different things. So those opportunities became greater opportunities.
3 (44m 14s):
When I think about the certification and SFD certification and the makeup assistant, being a makeup assistant led to me working at the lyric opera, I was a makeup artist. There was being paid $60 an hour to face paint people there. And I didn't go down the basement for an audition and feel what boss felt. But, you know, I, I went in and I went in and was, was hired as a makeup artist. And I'm doing all these face painting. You know, they, they bring all the extras and they, we just whip them out and they were broad strokes, but it was great to be making 120 bucks an
4 (44m 52s):
Hour. That's a lot of
3 (44m 53s):
Money, 120 bucks to do this. And that was great. And then working with Nick Sans, Patricia's husband, who did the fights for dangerous liaisons at shutter glow, which Sue Bennett talked about, who was brilliant in that. And I was in uncle Vanya with her, and she was brilliant in that. And then I saw her in house of blue leaves on Broadway and was like, waving like a theater geek. She's amazing. She's amazing. And her a Pele can impression was absolutely breathtaking, you know, to do those, to do that stage combat, I actually got hired and was hired as an African Baton for Romeo Julietta on the stage at the Lyrica with the 70 foot presidium.
3 (45m 38s):
And they, they had us fight and everything, and the assistant director came in and he said, he wanted to look at us fight. And he's like you center stage. So the curtain goes up for 4,500 people and I'm center stage as one of the Capulets fighting. And I'm just like, holy cow,
4 (45m 55s):
That's right out of
3 (45m 56s):
School. That was a couple of years out of school. That was also when I was in no end of blame with Paul Holquist, who I connected with just yesterday and PJ and timeline and great. And was in, was in four shows at the same time. Right. At the moment that I stopped acting.
4 (46m 16s):
Okay.
3 (46m 17s):
That's interesting. Yeah. And yeah, you could have been
4 (46m 22s):
Friends with me and being,
3 (46m 25s):
I, my makeup assistant position, I also worked the Halloween trade show for Ben Nye and Dana and I from Ben. I worked with him for three years at the Halloween trade show in March. And he said, if you want to come out to LA, I will give you a job. And I was at a point in my life in Chicago, where there were too many demons around every corner and I just,
2 (46m 51s):
Yeah. DePaul demons. And then
3 (46m 54s):
Yes, yes, like light bulbs going off when you're working on the lighting crew, reading demons around every corner where I basically decided I needed to make a change, but I also, there was a clear moment. I was in a restaurant bathroom, just down the street from where we were doing no one to blame for timeline. And I splashed some water on my face and I looked in the mirror and I said, you're an asshole. And if you don't change, you're going to die because of the way I was abusing alcohol and doing different things, I could not sustain what I was doing.
3 (47m 36s):
And it was tearing me up inside. And you know, you look at someone like Susan Bennett when, when I saw her work in that is on stage ruse and an uncle Vanya, she was building and building and building and sustaining and learning from the people around her. And she was building like this breadth of work that was just growing and growing and growing right out of school. I was cast in Agamemnon by Steven Berkoff at European rep, which was where timeline was before timeline took over that space. And that show ran for three years and become in and out of that show was awesome. Great impact on me. But if I backtrack to school two days before I graduated high school, my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and she passed away my senior year.
3 (48m 29s):
She passed away September 14th in 1994. And the whole time I was in school, I was dealing with a lot of that. My mom never wanted me to be an actor. She never wanted to be, to be in theater. She wanted me to be a CPA because I was good in math. She challenged it. She questioned it. A lot of things. She said, you, when I see you on stage, you're just like your father. That is not a compliment coming from her. So here are, my mom is sick. I went with Kevin Fox to a concert of pink Floyd concert over Memorial day weekend. When I went to go visit her and she was getting spinal taps and getting chemotherapy and directed it injected directly into her spine and she was struggling.
3 (49m 15s):
And she said, I can't pay for college anymore. You're going to have to find a way yourself and money had always been held over my head in that, in my relationship. Because when I turned 18, my mom had to turn over the money. My dad invested in the house back to my mom. So there was always this sense of you're a paycheck. You are the money that I'm going to lose. I'm gonna lose my house because of you. I'm gonna lose my I'm going to lose things because of you because of this money, I owe your father. And growing up with that, that weigh down on me, hence therapy. So, you know, and other reasons for therapy because therapy is amazing and it saved my life.
3 (49m 56s):
So you look at the fact that when I was in college, I had a difficult time processing that. And then I'm in school junior year, junior year, I'm in Betsy Hamilton's class. And we had these directing projects that we directed people in, in these projects. And, and I directed a piece and I made the most ridiculous statement in class. I said, I've learned who I want to work with and who I don't want to work with by doing this process. The next day, Betsy sat everybody down. And every single one of my classmates handed me and rightfully so my ass and rip me a new one of how arrogant and self-centered I was being.
3 (50m 47s):
And this was the same time I was in snow, white rose red. And I just kinda, you know, my first main stage show and, and I was like arrogant. And, but that arrogant was armor. That arrogance was, was this block. And so I changed my behavior. I changed my, I changed my behavior. I kind of like started to hold my hands up and sit in a corner. And I did that for a while. And one of my classmates finally came up to me and said, thank you for really listening to us, because I really appreciate the way you're behaving now, by comparison, the way you're behaving before. And I heard that and I was like, what the fuck? I'm like, that is not what I wanted to do.
3 (51m 29s):
I don't want to change everything. I was headed. I had a trajectory of where I was going. Yes, I was arrogant. I got handed my ass. Rightfully so. And I appreciate the fact that I appreciate that honesty. That's what I love. I love brutal honesty. I still, to this day, love brutal honesty. I like it. When people tell me what they truly think. I don't want anyone to hide behind something because that doesn't help anyone. So getting handed that by my classmates, it did change my behavior fast forward, senior year, September 14th, Jim Osstell Hoff's class. I'm sitting there in the, and everyone's like, you know, if you made all this money, what would you do?
3 (52m 9s):
And we're going around the class. And everybody starts talking about what they would do. And the class is over. And I, and I said, I have to go today because I don't think I'm going to be here next week. And they're like, what do you mean? I said, I wrote all this stuff. I did this assignment, but it's all bullshit because the fact of the matter is like, if I had money, I take care of my mom. I take care of my dad. I take care of my brother. I take care of the people closest to me. I wouldn't have my house in Santa Barbara and my apartment in New York and my other apartment in Chicago. I said, because that's not who I am, but that's what I did for this assignment. And when I hear everybody here, I know it's bullshit. The only thing I want to do is take care of my family.
3 (52m 51s):
I walked out of that room and Leonard was waiting there and he just put his arms around me and I lost my shit. And it was at that exact moment that my mom died. So the reality is the time of her death. And the time that that moment occurred was the exact same moment. When I, when I was in undergrad, when I was freshman year, I was in church. I was sitting in church and I was, I was praying. And all of a sudden I felt this overwhelming feeling hit me. And I immediately went home and I called my mom and said, mom, you didn't go to chemotherapy. Did you? And she said, no, I didn't. And I said, why?
3 (53m 31s):
She says, I've already lost my breasts. I don't want to lose my hair. And when we start to think about what we consider beauty to be, this was the thing that stopped her from going further with her treatment. And so you start looking at that, losing her my senior year, the monologue I picked to do at showcase was all about that. We were the first class to go to LA. I picked a monologue from long day's journey. And tonight I should have done Rick's monologue from six degrees of separation. That was the one that was killing it. I did it in John Jenkins class and his technique class and just kicked its butt.
3 (54m 13s):
And that would have done much better in LA. But I have learned from this podcast, it wouldn't have mattered because if I had, I didn't have any interviews because they told Leonard, they said, you know, you're a Chinese friend, your redheaded Chinese friend. He cause I, that was part of my bio. I'm the only quarter Chinese red-headed guy. I know you literally are Chinese. Okay. My mom is half Chinese and I'm quarter. And that was part of my bio, but they they're like, yeah, he did that very strange monologue. Eugene O'Neill was a strange monologue. Well to LA LA LA. It is. But if I had had, I didn't have any meetings, didn't want any meetings to be honest with you. But I went out there and I had no intent.
3 (54m 53s):
I didn't care that I didn't get any meetings because I got in the car and I drove to Santa Barbara and I drove right up to the doorstep of the house that we lived in. And I took my mom's ashes and I put it on the, at the, at the door. I put it outside the house because that I wanted to return her to that place. And that was the reason I went to LA. I didn't go to LA to be famous. I wanted to do theater in New York because of that's what we worked on in the theater in New York and in Chicago. Cause that's what we were taught at the theater school. We were taught to uphold that. And that's what I want. Right. And, and, you know, I said, when I lived, when I went there, I'm like, I'm never going to move. I live in LA, it's never going to happen.
3 (55m 35s):
And then you took the job with job. I worked for Ben Nye for, you know, three and a half years. This is the thing. Never tell the universe. Never because the universe is going to go. Right. Okay. So, so you know, all these different things happened right. In the moment I talked to Paul Hornquist about this yesterday, about how cause he was in knowing the blame and he thought I had it all together. And, and I'm like, no, that was it. Kevin Fox. And I met at the taco bell down the street from Wrigley field. And I said, I'm, I'm giving it up. And he was like, why your career is taking off?
3 (56m 16s):
I said, because I have to, my dad was pissed, but just this past year, my dad said, I understand now I understand why you gave it up because you wouldn't be here. If you had kept doing it. And
1 (56m 34s):
You, and you really feel like just to reiterate, like you feel like when you splash the water on your face, that was when you were in for shows and everything. And you thought that you, you just got a sense that like your life would end for destructive ways. If you stayed on the path you were on, right.
2 (56m 51s):
Like you were a runaway, I'm getting the image that you felt like you were a runaway train. Yeah.
3 (56m 56s):
Yeah. And I was not, you know, EV to everybody's outside viewpoint. They were like, why are you leaving? You're leaving right. When you're, you're getting somewhere. And I'm like, I felt a rhythm and a tempo inside of me that was dying. And I didn't want to fan the flames.
2 (57m 14s):
So would, would it be fair to say it worked, that you made that course correction at that point? Oh yeah.
3 (57m 20s):
Okay. Like the fact everything that's happened in my life since, you know, but I started the theater company and everything was going great. And then it really was my first year of grad school, because that was the beginning. I've maxed out my credit cards. I did this, we got non-profit status. And then the company was going in a direction that I didn't agree with. And the wolves turned and I walked away.
2 (57m 48s):
So when you, so the death of your mother happened at the beginning of your final year of school, did that, it sounds like what you're saying. And part of that, that had the effect of giving you a kind of perspective that you probably wouldn't have otherwise had. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Okay. And what, what's it like to be processing that at the same time is, I mean, because you're already processing so much to be in theater school and maybe even, especially to be in your final year to that on top of it, must've,
3 (58m 22s):
It was a lot, but here's the great thing about your podcast, listening to Jimmy McKernan, talking about his father's death when he was directing his piece, listening to, you know, Bridget, Cubito talking about trauma, listening to Rob Hess, talking about the trauma burritos. Oh my God. I just like so much that I didn't feel alone anymore. Listening to what Jimmy went through with that and that process and the ways that he felt that he transferred any displaced aggressions onto the people he was working with those elements. But the, the reverence that you have for him as a director, you know, it, it, it made me because originally I was like thinking, you know, I'm, I'm alone in this.
3 (59m 11s):
I no longer felt alone. That was huge, huge to not feel alone anymore in this process. You know, to me, it's like also listening Jen, to talk about, like, you lost your mom in 2011, and then what you discovered in 2015 at that picnic, you know, to me, it's like thinking about the fact that I lost my mom in 1994 and when with her death, I kind of elevated her status and she raised her up on a pedestal. My graduation day from DePaul was probably one of the most depressing days of my life, my brother and my father, weren't speaking to each other. My stepfather was there. He and my father, weren't talking to one another.
3 (59m 51s):
They, Tim Donovan was next to me. I'm sobbing. I'm absolutely sobbing. I go up on stage. There's a picture of me. You know, if you want to buy your graduation photos, walking on the stage, I looked like death. And because it was, it was not what it was supposed to be. I had written a letter to the school, my junior year of saying, it's been a long time since you've done Shakespeare, you need to do it again. Romeo and Juliet needs to be what you're doing. They pick Romeo and Juliet, Christina, Dara's directing. And I love that Christina dare she and I got along great. And I thought, Hey Romeo, I'm going to prove to my mom that I am not my father. And I'm going to play this part. She passes away.
3 (1h 0m 33s):
Castless comes out. I stopped going to the cast list. The night of posting my junior year, went into the woods, got posted because into the wood got posted. I looked at the list I saw I was in hunting, cockroaches directed by Paul Taylor, loved that play, saw Leonard's name as the Wolf and into the woods. So excited. I'm like, Hey Leonard, you got cast in a main stage show. And he's like, great. The only African-American in the entire casting pool gets cast as an animal, as an animal. Yeah. And he's like, it would be fine if I was also the prince, but I got asked as an animal.
3 (1h 1m 13s):
And my whole perception changed in that moment. And, and Leonard Leonard was my dear friend, the entire four years, Amy as well. She, she and Kevin, we called each other, the pig dogs. It's like Kevin pig, dog. And Amy picked up and she would always like push on my nose whenever I got too serious. She's like Steven, calm down. And you took on them. But the cast list goes up for Romeo and Juliet. And I walk up and Leonard walks up at the exact same time. It's the morning after. And I see that I'm listed as Tybalt and I had keys. Great part by the way. Great, great part. Yeah. But I'm sorry.
3 (1h 1m 54s):
I think so. And, and, and, and it was, and I was certified. I had all these things. It makes sense. I had the key to the makeup room. Lennon's there with me. I walk into the makeup room and I saw because I'm not going to be able to prove to my mom that I'm a good actor. I'm playing the angry young man. And this is exactly what she said about my acting. All. I had a meeting with Christine and she said, I would have had to have gone with my third choices. Juliet, if I cast you as Romeo. And I'm like, what do you mean? She, she says, Karen mold is taller than you. Karen was my roommate junior year.
3 (1h 2m 35s):
I, you know, loved her, got along with her, but she's like, yeah. And they have the thing. Leonard is Romeo. Of course, Leonard is Romeo. I got to play Romeo years later, I'm in Chicago. So I got that out of my system, but I see Leonard in class and he's just sitting in the corner. He's like, ah, and I just went up and gave him a hug. And I was like, I love you. I, you know, I love that. I love him. And Amy, I officiated their wedding.
2 (1h 3m 3s):
Oh, look at that beauty. He can't see, he's holding up a beautiful picture of Amy Farrow, Leonard Roberts, getting married and Steven.
3 (1h 3m 11s):
Yeah. In Santa Barbara, California. So, you know, so it's like crazy to go back there again. And then to be part of that joy,
2 (1h 3m 19s):
I have a question. I don't understand how you onstage reminded your mom of your dad. I think I missed something there.
3 (1h 3m 29s):
Cause my dad, okay. My dad was when we were in California, my dad did not get tenure. My mom did not want to leave set of Barbara. She also had had a relationship with one of my dad's graduate students. And I didn't find this out until two years after her death. And so just like what you find out at the pic, you find out this information and you're like, oh my gosh, what I've learned about this woman is completely different than the reality. My dad's response to that was to become very, like, we call them flaky.
3 (1h 4m 12s):
Jake. He always had this kind of exuberant energy that just went all over the place. He got involved in acting because it's something that he wanted to do, but he never pursued it. He started acting in shows. I'm nine years old going to see him in getting out, he's playing the pimp and getting out and I'm sitting in the audience and they're like, why is this nine-year-old kid here? You know? And you know, that show, which is not a ghetto show, just want to point that out. But is a, is an amazing show. I think Leslie ivory, I think, was talking about, about being in a production of it and whatnot, but it's like absolutely incredible. But to be in that, watching him in that, like he expressed himself, he, he let all these feelings out.
3 (1h 4m 54s):
When I discovered later on about my mom's situation, that helps to understand why my dad behaved the way that he did. I called my dad up and I'm like, talk to me about this. And my dad was like, you were never supposed to find that out. And then it was not until that moment that because I never saw my parents love each other. It was that moment that I saw that my dad loved my mom. And so it took all this time, but what that did and the seeking of truth, we read Oedipus. We we'd go on journeys of truth. I started on this journey of truth. I wanted to know things. I took my mom's old computer and I started looking through her files, big mistake.
3 (1h 5m 38s):
And I'm reading through her files and they're in her journal is Steven is my cancer.
2 (1h 5m 46s):
What
3 (1h 5m 49s):
Was it? The exact same time that I'm in four shows in Chicago and I'm drinking a lot and I'm doing all this stuff. And I read that and I realize something has to change. Oh my God. So you find out this information and you put the brakes. And I just discovered that everywhere I walked in Chicago, I was having, I was running into things that I couldn't hide from the blue demons in my closet. And I moved out to California and I start something new and I start a new, a new journey and, you know, having a kind of a fresh start. And I lived in Chicago.
3 (1h 6m 29s):
I lived in LA for four years before I went to grad school. So, you know,
2 (1h 6m 35s):
I have to say something that I hope it's okay to say, we always do the, let me run this by your thing. Right, right. Before we interview our guests and I was going to bring up as my, let me run this by you too boss, that I'm tired of my own vanity and I'm ready to let go of it. You know, I'm ready to figure out how to let go of it. I just keep thinking like your mother's vanity really killed her.
3 (1h 7m 5s):
Yeah. And this is where, you know, my, my, my dad later in life got alopecia totalis and lost all the hair on his entire body. And he lost all the hair. The month that his own father was that age when he died, I'm 48 years old. My mom died at 50, like I'm of the age that she was struggling with this stuff. And, and, and that's, that's crazy, but like, I've talked to people who have also have alopecia and that are losing their hair and it's very difficult. But I told, I said, I would shave my head in an instant, if it meant allowing someone to feel more confident about their journey or struggles with health.
3 (1h 7m 50s):
Now here's the crazy thing. I went to work at Northwestern university at the center for biotechnology. The year, the six months after my mom died, Tamoxifen came on the market. You know, the ways in which science does certain things and has certain advancements. And it's like, you start to think the, what if quality, not in a Marvel sense of what if Sean Gunn can talk more about that. But, you know, in, in, in the aspect of what, if, if she had held on longer, what if that drug could have changed, but, but she didn't lose her hair. But when she was on her death bed, she weighed 70 pounds.
3 (1h 8m 32s):
And I went home over, over labor day weekend, but I was still holding on hope that she was going to see Romeo and Juliet and that she was going to accept me as,
2 (1h 8m 43s):
And so like, it's not the same kind of vanity, but, but that was also what you were really contending with. The vanity of needing the people, pleasing the pick me, choose me, love me, then the need to be seen in a certain type of way by your mother was what created the runaway train that you then had to completely jump away from. So, Steven, when you were saying that you're making you're healing something now thinking that you weren't alone losing a parent going through this really difficult time in early life.
2 (1h 9m 23s):
I don't know why it's strikes me because I spent so much time talking about this exact thing, but somehow the way you are saying it is really, it's really touching me that like we hold on to these very active hurts like that. You could still feel alone now from 25 years ago. Like, I, I don't, that's so weird that the brain does that.
3 (1h 9m 54s):
Well. I mean, I mean, Bridget talked about trauma in the body. She talked about that in her Feldman Christ's work and everything. And when I was out in California, when I got fired from that job in November, on November 1st and I applied to grad school, the job that I went to next was to be the executive director of a massage therapy school. And I became a massage therapist. And during deep tissue work as part of our training, I was getting deep tissue work on the chest, in the intercostals in between the ribs and everything. And I lost it on the table because that's where my mom resides is right in the center of my chest. So you release that tension from the body.
3 (1h 10m 34s):
What that releasing did is it opened me up to the possibilities that came immediately following it. It opened me up to the love that I have with my wife. It opened me up to the possibility of grad school. It opened me up by releasing and letting that go. I was able to feel this huge weight, come off my shoulders by allowing it to really devastate me on the table as I was working with my, with my classmates through the, the training. And, and that's a good thing. I have always had a powerful, emotional response to that. I do.
3 (1h 11m 15s):
And oftentimes that powerful, emotional response pushes people away. And I regret that fact that happened in, under it happened during my training at theater school. And, and I don't like the fact that that is truth. But the reality is, is when I feel something, I feel it deeply. I feel it. I, you know, we, we are taught to open the channel through the link ladder training that we got and I opened the channel and it, it, it just kept flowing. And
2 (1h 11m 46s):
How does it drive people away? You're saying like, oh, it's too much. It's too intense people. Can't take it.
3 (1h 11m 51s):
Yeah. And I'll just use the theater school. As example, first year, our, our voice teacher was Peter
3 (1h 12m 31s):
And no one raised their hand. And I said, screw it I'll work. And I started doing queen MAB from Romeo and Juliet because I played Rakisha and Peter stopped me and was like, Nope, you're not working on that. You're going to work on the speech that you've been working on with me, which is the bastard speech from king Lear, the most overdone.
2 (1h 12m 51s):
But I love it.
3 (1h 12m 52s):
I love it. And I had a huge emotional uproar happen. He had me pounding on the mats. Everybody in the class went like, like to the backs of the walls. And I finished it and I got leveled by my classmates are there. And I'm like, they were like, we knew that you've always had this in you. And they connected it back to John. And I'm like, I'm my own person, John, that happened in another section. It didn't even happen in our section, but I'm my own person. And I'm feeling something and what happened, my junior and senior and junior, actually sophomore and junior year.
3 (1h 13m 37s):
I didn't care anymore. If I had an emotional response, I was just gonna let it out. We had to pick our first monologue from, for Christine said, pick a new, pick a new Shakespeare monologue. I'm reading a fellow to read, to find a Niagara monologue. And I come to Othello's, be-all the hold. I have a weapon, his speech after he's killed ghost Desdemona. And I'm like, I have to do this. And I lose it in class and everybody just stays away. And then grit from six degrees. I had just come from a mood team as a class. I had the rainbow shorts underneath my pants. And at the end of the speech, thinking about the given circumstances of that speech, Rick in the next thing we hear about him is that he's jumped out of a window and he's killed himself.
3 (1h 14m 20s):
So I'm in the classroom on the top level of the building. And I just strip all my clothes off except for my rainbow shorts and my leggings. And I go to the window and I throw up in the window and I lean out the window and I say the last line out the window. And I close the window and everyone is like backed off. And when I, when Jane Alderman's class came and we were picking which monologue to do, and I didn't do that one as the first one, I did the, the one from a long day's journey. And tonight my classmates were like, yeah, do that one, do that one. Because, and I was at that point trying to please them because I felt so lost having lost my mother, but the Rick monologue would have done me so much better, but it wouldn't have mattered because I wasn't going out to LA anyways.
2 (1h 15m 14s):
Right. But do you, I'm guessing that you see it now, the reaction of your classmates is it's too real. It's too honest. It make you doing this makes me feel like I have to do something about myself, right? Yeah,
3 (1h 15m 29s):
Totally, totally. And here's the thing about it. I'm a director now. I'm I, I do still act in things I'm, I'm in our production of Christmas, Carol on the adult, tiny Tim, who's the narrator talking through things. So I still act, but it's not my pursuit. And I try to navigate these issues and, and it's difficult, but you know that
2 (1h 15m 57s):
You're directing at the school.
3 (1h 15m 58s):
Yeah. I directly in the 13 years I've been here, I've done 25 productions in 10 years and then teach my acting classes and theater. And I've taught 22 different classes at the college level while I've been here from a WWE class, with the business professor to Enactus, to all these things. I mean, I've, I've been all over the map and this is Jen Ellison talking about teaching an ethics class. Like the fact of the matter is, is we adapt everybody adapts. And so theater we're taught to adapt and we can educate ourselves. So, you know, like people, like, we want you to teach this class. I'm like, okay, okay.
2 (1h 16m 36s):
I can do it. So, so being, so when it must be such an interesting experience to be with your students and have recollections and real, probably visceral even responses to like, okay, I know exactly the thing that you're going through. And you may even have people that you identify as being similar to you, you know, younger versions of yourself and the tricky part. I mean, that's such a wonderful gift, but it's something to be navigated so carefully because the tricky part is when you overly identify right with the person and then you, you like, you don't have enough perspective and that's to help them. But do you, do you think about that a lot? The,
3 (1h 17m 16s):
Yeah. John Jenkins, the aesthetic distance. How's your old man, you know, like, like when do we have the aesthetic distance? There've been challenges that I've had. I mean, there are adolescents growing up. They they're told they're adults, but they haven't taken responsibility for their own lives. So they're not adults. And, and you have this major challenge that these students have, and I've, I've gotten calls at home. I've taken students to the wellness center, I've done things to try to protect them and, and gone out of my way to do so and seeing them through difficult times, because the fact is, is that a lot of us are not talking about the conflicts that we have.
3 (1h 18m 2s):
We're not discussing it. And I might wait, awakened something in them and I have to be ready to catch them. And that's, that's that, that we awaken the spirit and we have to be able to realize that you might need a safety net.
2 (1h 18m 18s):
Oh yeah. You can't just bring it up. And then in St. Later.
3 (1h 18m 22s):
Yeah. And there've been, there've been times that I've succeeded in there have been times that I've failed. Blake hacker talked about that beautifully in his interview with you guys about the ways that, you know, you, you succeed and you fail in this profession, but you do the best you can.
5 (1h 18m 45s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina
Intro: rain in LA, Nine Perfect Strangers, we're worried about Nicole Kidman and Madonna, The Way Down documentary, The Plot Thickens podcast, Glee
Let Me Run This By You: antisemitism
Interview: Jen and Gina talk about survival, itself.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth wrote me this and I'm Gina
1 (50s):
Like I was like, is that thunder? What in the crazy thunderstorms, which we never obviously having the desert. So, or in LA the thing that's come, the episodes that's coming out today, you specifically referenced how there's never any vendor's derms in LA. That's really funny. So, yeah, so it was a very chill day. In a lot of ways. I spent a lot of time. My cousin came from San Francisco and she stays at the, she stayed at a Sheraton hotel and we, I woke up, I usually had Mondays, I take my, like a sunrise hike, but I just wasn't feeling it.
1 (1m 30s):
I was really tired. And so I just laid around and then I went to my favorite cafe that I recently discovered called superba. And then I like it. And then I hung out with my cousin and we literally like went to my favorite restaurant, which is tender greens. Do you guys have tender greens over there? No, it sounds, this sounds like a great salad place, salads and bowls. So my thing is like, I get really resentful. If I sometimes just eat a salad, I need like a grain to go with my salad. I'm like, I don't want just a salad. So they have these sort of grain and salad bowls with meat and say, or like salmon chicken or veggie or a steak.
1 (2m 18s):
And so I, it was delicious. It's like my favorite. So overpriced, it's so ridiculous for a fast food place, but whatever it's health, it's pretty healthy. And that was amazing. And then yeah, then around like four, the skies turned really dark and I was like, what is happening? I thought it was fires. And then it just burst out and I heard thunder and I was like, what? So it was a really good day. I got some really like lovely messages. And there was that huge Facebook outage. Right? Yeah. So it was interesting in blessing the blessing Facebook outage. So my cousin asked me, she's like, well, like how is it to have no Facebook messages on your birthday?
1 (3m 3s):
Cause that's when people really go for it. You know, it's an interesting thing. It is kind of like, oh, but then it's also like, oh, I'm missing out. But then it is also really interesting how, right? Like it's just like going to church on Christmas. Like you go one day a year and you're like, or some people do. And then you're like, oh, I'm good for them. And so that's the same with the like happy birthday, Facebook messages. So I thought, yeah, it's just a really good, interesting thing to like, not be able one to go on social media that we all probably experienced and then to not be able to get the fix of like happy birthday, happy, you know?
2 (3m 40s):
Yeah. Yeah.
1 (3m 41s):
It's an interesting psychological situation. So it was, it was, do they know why it went down?
2 (3m 48s):
Oh yes, girl. I read the most, I loved this. This is, I mean, I'm sorry to say it, but it's even psychological. This thing that happens. So face book now I I'm gonna say this in just the bleakest artful way. People like Bradley Walker are going to be listening to this being like, you're such a guy, but I'm going to say in a way that I would understand. So maybe other people understand too Facebook's infrastructure, their, their technological infrastructure and their servers or everything. It's all Facebook brand blitz say they don't interface really with other companies there.
2 (4m 31s):
They're what is that called vertical integration. It's like one stop shopping, everything that they do and produce and need and use it's all within Facebook. So that's fine, except for when there's a problem and the override. So the problem is also a Facebook entity and then the right. So they were even having the problem that they couldn't get into the server room because the key card that they needed to open the door to get into the server room was high.
1 (5m 7s):
Brilliant, brilliant. And it's, it does go to the same. It sort of speaks to the, the thing about pathology and addiction and stuff, which is you can't fix the problem with the same mind that created the problem or has the problem. And that's what they experienced. Oh my God.
2 (5m 27s):
You know, and it's like, don't be a closed loop. You know, like this is the problem with being a closed loop. I mean, I understand it like in an emotional way, I understand the desire to be a closed loop because you get into this thing of like, I can't rely on anybody else. You can only rely on myself and like, everybody else disappointed me. I'm that mark Zuckerberg has that written all over his face. Like he is such a hard on for the world. Like he has such a chip on his shoulder about like how everybody has wronged him. I feel, I mean, I don't know him, but that's just what it seems like. And so his desire to have everything be controlled by himself is understandable.
2 (6m 11s):
And it's, it is going to be the thing that leads to his downfall, whatever the case, whatever the downfall is, we can be sure that it has something to do with this desire to have everything, everything be within his control.
1 (6m 24s):
Yeah. And I think it is going to be his undoing. And I think it is like we saw yesterday and, and, and I mean, it just was such fodder for hilariousness. It was like, I literally saw a news headline that was, and I don't remember what it was some paper in London or something that said Facebook and Twitter and WhatsApp are down. Maybe you should take this opportunity to go down on someone else or something like that. It was like,
2 (6m 56s):
Public library said for everybody's information. We're not down. We're still open. By the way. The thing about the storms, you can always tell, you can instantly know it's raining in LA because 1 million pictures of rain it's like ever, it's such an event. Everybody's Instagramming it,
1 (7m 16s):
Everyone. It's so interesting. It's like weather is so like basic, like people that were so affected by weather, even if we pretend not to be like, it's just great unifier. Yeah. And we're just, it's just an, I like it. Cause it's the great thing that like no one can control, right? Like speaking of control, like he'll, I mean, one day Elon Musk will probably figure out how to control the weather, but until then nobody can. And it's fantastic.
2 (7m 43s):
Speaking of Elon Musk, did you see that picture of Grimes reading? Like I'm going to spend a Festo. I read that if that should have been, that photograph should have been in the museum of camp. Like, so for people who don't know Grimes was, is this singer a woman? It's was he Elon Musk's girlfriend? And they broke up and then she's got this very, you know, obviously staged photo of herself in head to toe, whatever crazy leather with her long ass nails and her makeup reading, Karl Marx, if you put it, you know, if you saw it in a museum, you'd be like, that is hilarious.
2 (8m 29s):
But it's really what she did. It's really what should,
1 (8m 33s):
Yeah. What goes through someone's mind to want to stage a photo like that? Or was it someone else or like what, what is it?
2 (8m 42s):
I think that these, that these millennials love to have their picture taken, reading a book. That's like the that's just such a, you know, did you watch, did you watch the white?
1 (8m 56s):
No, I saw, I started nine. Perfect strangers though. Oh girl.
2 (9m 1s):
Let's get into that.
1 (9m 2s):
How far does it go? I just literally started and I was like, what is, what is I, I, yeah, it's very it's it's it was very triggering for me. Like to see what is yeah. Like I just, I don't understand. Okay. Here's what happens to me. I get very overstimulated and I also get distracted by the way people look. Right. So like, I'm just like, you're going to say, well, Kidman, right? It's like, it's hard for me to not go into feeling afraid and feeling like that just frightens me when people change their appearance so much, because I wonder what it is.
1 (9m 50s):
Oh. Because I'm probably scared that I'll do it or people I love will feel the need to look a certain way and they look crazy. However, it's w I think it's, well-written, I don't understand what's happening yet, but I, I, yeah. Are they, is it similar to white Lotus or no?
2 (10m 9s):
It's similar to white load is just in the sense that it's, for the most part, it's, you know, people with money going to a, but they're going to this wellness retreat and it's this place that nobody that doesn't need to advertise it exists solely on word of mouth. And I don't, I'm not sure I haven't read if there's going to be a season two, this, this, whatever they did is six episodes or nine episodes. And it tells a pretty complete story. So yeah, I had the same feeling about Nicole Kidman. What it brings up for me is I feel so worried for her. I feel like she's gonna break.
2 (10m 50s):
She's so thin. And she's so altered. Her appearance is so altered that it just makes me worry about what's happening. And, you know,
1 (11m 3s):
People like her, and I have a similar thing with Joe Biden, even though they're not, they look translucent to me. And I think that you can almost see their insight. It's the weirdest thing. But like, you can kind of see the inner workings of their body. And it's just very, very disconcerting. It's very bizarre, but that is not so much. I, you know, I actually look plastic surgery and we've talked on this podcast before. I don't, I don't want to sh like, I really don't want to shame anyone for getting it because I feel like that doesn't help the problem.
2 (11m 41s):
Then you gotta do. When people have to do what works for them, it
1 (11m 44s):
Doesn't help to say no one should get plastic surgery. I mean, that is like, again, I'm always going back to saying, tell a crack addict, don't smoke crack. It's you don't, I'm not saying people are all addicts that do surgery, but what I'm saying is the shit doesn't help to shame people. It just does. It made hell for a hot second. And then, but it is like, right. It is just, it is just, I think you and I probably both see the, the underlying pathology that leads someone to think that that is what they need to do to stay something relevant, happy, whatever it is, it is a, we, I cannot help, but see it as a cry for help, even if it's, even if that's not what they're trying to do when it is that altering, there's gotta be a cry for something.
1 (12m 40s):
What is a cry for relevancy, a cry for youth, a cry for please don't change. Nothing can change. You know,
2 (12m 48s):
You know what it makes me think of. I wonder if we're also scared by the idea that you could be Nicole Kidman and still hate yourself. She is an amazing actor. She's truly talented. I don't agree with her being cast as Lucille ball. I feel that was, that was low down and dirty. But at the same time, she's a really good actor, but you can be her and have the money and have the life and whatever, and have the career. And you could still really, really hate yourself.
1 (13m 18s):
Yeah. Or like, feel that you have to change. I guess that's what it is. Like, feel that you have to take such drastic steps to change the outside or maintain what you think. See, the other thing is like to maintain what you think you looked like, which isn't what you looked like, because you can never look like what you looked like, because time changes you. So it is this weird, like, dude, you never looked like this and you looked young, but that's not the same as looking like this. So I, and it is very, what is it? It's scary to me.
1 (13m 58s):
It's it just takes me out of the, it's hard for me to get past it and say, because what I say is like, oh my God, there was a human in there that looked like the same as Madonna. I have the same, same thing. When I look at Madonna
2 (14m 13s):
Simply I simply cannot look at a picture of her. It is so grotesque. She, it's sad. It's really, really, really sad. Yeah. But, you know, I will just say about Nicole Kidman, she does such a good job in this. You'll get over in a couple of episodes. You'll kind of, you kind of get past it and it kind of in a way works for the character, even though it shouldn't, that's never something that gets addressed. It may, you can find a way that it makes sense.
1 (14m 43s):
I'm going to continue. Okay. So Madonna is starting to look like a tiger, like an animal. Like it looks
2 (14m 51s):
Like Jocelyn wild Dean or whatever that woman. Yeah. That's what she looks
1 (14m 56s):
Starting to look feline.
1 (15m 38s):
I don't necessarily want to do that. But what I want is, you know what, it's different. It's different for me, because I never have felt like at one point I would, if we had, if we had a Madonna on our show, I would love to ask, Hey, she went to U of M I think in a conservatory, but it was dance. I think she didn't finish. But anyway, I'd love to say like, okay, did you feel like at the height of maybe material, girl, staff, whatever, did you feel like the total shit? Like you were the shit, did you ever have a moment? Okay. I have. Now I have had so few of those moments where it's like on that level, you know, like what I imagined it is when you just know you're the shit at some point, and you are an icon, whether you, whether you, what direction you take from there.
1 (16m 30s):
That's but you must have a moment of being like, damn I am the boss ass bitch. Okay, fine. I've never experienced that. So I think ho wanting to hold on to that and people telling you, you can hold onto that feeling by altering this, your face must be really, really seductive. Now I have always been like a bigger human and a lot of ways for most of my life. Like, I don't have the same feeling that I was ever on top of the world, but, and it's just such a, it's a tricky thing because are they, do they feel like they're on top of the world or they feel less than, and that's why they're doing this. I don't know.
2 (17m 8s):
Well, I thought you were going to say that the reason it was upsetting to you is because you want to have role role models is not really the right word, but you want to have examples of older, powerful women who just, who just age that were so thirsty are I feel so thirsty for just more, I can't believe how many times on this podcast, I bring up Meryl Streep, but more Meryl. Streep's more people who are just like, yeah, I'm, I'm getting older. And I mean, maybe she's had some work done. I don't know. But she looks essentially like the same person, Glenn close looks essentially like the same person.
2 (17m 52s):
And certainly, you know, Angela Bassett and Halle Berry. Now they're, they're blessed with genes that make them not really seem to ever age, but still I'd love to see some people who say, yeah, I'm a bad-ass because I've had all of these experiences and because of,
1 (18m 14s):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think that is a part of me. That's like, wait a second. Why? Right. Is no one, no woman untouched by the pressure to be a certain way. Why, why and where are there? And there are them, but like, yeah. I mean, Madonna, I have to say, like, she, I had a poster on my wall. I dressed as her for Halloween. Like I just thought, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And, and now I'm, it is troubling to look at it. It's just troubling. It just looks troubling to me. It feels troubling.
1 (18m 55s):
So,
2 (18m 56s):
And it's also that it seems, you know, I think one thing that has been consistent with her and people like her is she's never satisfied. It's part of what makes her work ethic so strong. But it's the other thing, the other part of it is like, she's literally never satisfied it. You know, she, she can never look young enough. She can never look. So
1 (19m 13s):
With Michael Jackson, right? Like his, his drive, his, his perfectionism, his are the things that made him a mega star in part, I mean, talent too. But like talent is a lot of, for me made up of drive and so, and timing, but also drive and, and not giving up before the miracle happens for you, whatever that is. But like, but that's the same thing, right? Like you're saying that made him go over the edge of bonkers land, like bonkers land. And then you add all the money and nobody wants to tell them no, like working for, working for Nick cage, I experienced that all the time.
1 (19m 53s):
People were petrified to tell him no, don't buy that thing because it's going to be bad in the long run. People
2 (20m 2s):
Just fire them. Well, I think that was
1 (20m 4s):
The fear or the fear of getting in trouble or disappointing your boss, people pleasing, all that stuff. Oh, are you? You have a cold.
2 (20m 15s):
Yes. I press the mute button while I'm blowing my nose.
1 (20m 18s):
Sorry. I heard you. I just, oh, poor baby.
2 (20m 24s):
It's okay. And we, my whole family is sick. We, but we tested. Nobody has COVID
1 (20m 29s):
It's just a cold. It sounds like a straight up cold. It's a straight up cold anyway. So, so I, I just, I, you know, it just brings up a lot of stuff for me about like, how far am I willing to go to, to not change? That's the thing like we, we were trying not to change. I don't think when change is part of life. And then by doing that, we counteract it by doing all these changes that look crazy. It's just, it's just intense. And someone was asking me, how does it feel to be 46? And I said, here's the thing. I am taking better care of myself than I ever have my whole life.
1 (21m 11s):
If I was in a bad place with that, I think the age really would bother me. But I really acknowledge that I am not, I am not perfect, but I have a practice of how to take better care of myself than I did a year ago. So I'm going in the right direction. I'm also not famous with cameras in my face every two seconds. I don't know what that's like. That must be weird. So look, I'm not saying,
2 (21m 38s):
Yeah, that's the thing. It's everybody has their shit. Like it honestly doesn't matter what, what your situation is. Everybody has their shit and you're always going to have your shit. And you're never going to reach a point where you're like, oh, finally, free of all that. It's just the process. It's just the presence of letting go. So did you start watching the way down? Oh, she, I read that story has everything. It has cults. It has religion. It has anorexia, it has learner child abuse. And I was just like, wow. It has every conceivable storyline.
1 (22m 20s):
I was full transparency. I read the article and then I saw some YouTube, but I haven't watched the actual thing yet, but I, I don't believe it's hard to believe that this is real. So why don't you tell people what we're talking about?
2 (22m 35s):
Okay. So the way down is a documentary, a docu series on HBO max. And I have to say, it's not like the best documentary. It feels very rushed. I, you know, because it all just happened. It all literally just happened. Trying to
1 (22m 50s):
Get a jump on the
2 (22m 51s):
Whole, trying to get the jump on it. And it's beautifully photographed and everything like that. But it's like, but wait, there's so much left on set. It's like, they just gloss over certain, certain things that you were like, wait, but I want to know so much more about that. So, and what's crazy. The craziest thing is that I never heard of this story and it's such a big deal. Okay. So this woman named Gwen Shamblin was part of something called the church of Christ, which has been around for 200 years. It's a very, you know, fundamentalist Christian religion, where women can't hold positions of leadership and blah, blah, blah. She was a part of that church.
2 (23m 32s):
She started something in the eighties called way down, w E I G H down ministries. And she did weight loss for the Lord. Jesus, doesn't like you fat. And instead of down to the refrigerator, you bow down to him. And she made the tapes and she remembered the days where you'd like, get the cassette tapes. She made a ton of money. And then she started her own church because why wouldn't she, she, she was getting, you know, successful. And, and, and that allowed her to be the leader, but she never said that she was the leader.
2 (24m 12s):
She always said the leader was all these men behind her. But of course, if it was her church and it, it just became a really serious, serious cult that people had to get out of. And it's exactly like Scientology in that way. And people who left get followed by private investigators and lots of money gets funneled into legal defense whenever they get sued. And it has this tax exempt status because it's a church and it's just basically a scam. She got into a plane, crash and died. She had her husband and two other or three other leaders in the church were in a small plane in Smyrna, Georgia, that on takeoff, it crashed.
2 (24m 56s):
And so now one of the most interesting parts of the story is she had two children and the son was a guy is a guy who used music like that was his ministry, playing guitar and singing. And she really wanted him to take over the church, but he has a weight problem. He fluctuates, he goes up and down with his weight. So therefore he cannot be the leader of the church. And her daughter looks like a true and sincere skeleton. And that's, who's that's who has taken over the church. And this woman had the audacity on more than one occasion to say that in the death camps, the, the people lost weight because they didn't have food.
2 (25m 48s):
So that's like her role model, right? I mean like the daughter's role model or the lady, that's what Gwen said, God. So she's crazy. And a megalomaniac. And it's all about psychology because she was part of a church that wouldn't allow her to be a leader. And the guy she married is with some, after she dumped the husband who was fat, the guy she married second was a guy who played Tarzan on the TV movie of Tarzan, who was always looking for his next sugar mama and wanted to have a country music career. So he moved to tendons, all happens in Tennessee.
2 (26m 29s):
So he moved to Tennessee and met her and they became the power couple. Anyway, it's not that, like I say, it's not that it's an amazing documentary, but it's an amazing story. Yeah. I find on HBO max. And
1 (26m 43s):
I think that it is very, I mean, it just makes it, it makes perfect sense to me, the church of, you know, the church of weight loss,
2 (26m 55s):
Honestly, anorexia is the religion. That, that, that was my takeaway. Like, okay. So what all we've done here is we've turned a mental illness into a religion. Okay. All right. I mean, in some ways there's nothing more to, to be said about it, except there was a bunch of horrible shit that happened, including a child being murdered by his parents, because he was, they teach the parents to beat the children so that they are sit completely still during three hour church services, what go wacko wacko. So those, those are two of the things that, you know, being sick means like watch a lot of TV. So I watched nine perfect strangers.
2 (27m 36s):
I watched the way down. I started to watch the many saints of Newark, the Sopranos. I wasn't that into it. I didn't make it all the way.
1 (27m 43s):
I didn't, I didn't start it yet. It was boring too.
2 (27m 48s):
I mean, the thing I liked about it was drawing the lines like, oh, this is the young Paulie walnuts. Oh, this is, you know, that was kind of interesting. And there's nothing wrong with that per se, but it just, yeah, it just didn't grab me. And then the other thing I'm doing is I'm listening to a podcast called the plot thickens, which is hosted by Manco. It's his grandson. Oh yeah. And he just goes through like two, three of these Hollywood stories. So I'm listening to the story right now. The in-depth story of the making of the movie, the bonfire of the vanities, which I never saw, but it's an interesting podcast.
2 (28m 28s):
If anybody wants to check it out.
1 (28m 30s):
Oh, fantastic. You're busy. I'm I'm just doing, I'm doing, we're just obsessed with glee right now. Like I can't stop watching glee. No, we're, we're starting, we're starting from the beginning. It went from 2000. It was six years started in 2009 and miles stumbled upon it. And I started watching it and I thought, holy crap, this is so interesting to see the origins before. Right. Ryan Murphy did American horror story. Like what? That got what? So, but you can see inklings of it. It's I don't know if you saw it, the Barry dark show in some ways, all my, they tackled these subjects, abortion anorexia with song, but also they really straddle a line of all these kids don't look like they were in high school so they can get away with it's so crazy.
1 (29m 27s):
And some stuff would not go over now at all. You're like, that's not appropriate. But I think the genius is mixing the song with the crazy heavy subjects with the dancing and singing that is phenomenal. Like these singers are some of them, not all of them, but you're like, this is an example of a truly innovative television show. And it was, you know, and, and she was great Jane Lynch.
2 (29m 58s):
Oh yeah. Yeah. She's, she's
1 (30m 0s):
Phenomenal. And she's, she was great. And I, I, once I just shouldn't for her, she was, she was Phil. I have a special spot in my heart. First. She was directing a commercial and starring in it in Chicago for like Illinois tourism. And I got a call back and she was in the room for callbacks and she was hilarious and lovely. And I had the best time. And my favorite line that I said it was improv. Right. And at the end, I said, I said like, I'm supposed to, she's supposed to like, say something mean to me. And then I, you know, whatever she's like says like, oh, keep it moving lady. And I said, and I just turned to her. And I looked at her and I said, Jay, I said, why do you hate me Jane Lynch?
1 (30m 46s):
And we all laugh.
2 (30m 57s):
So two of my children have been the target of anti-Semitism in the last month. Yeah. One of them, it was a whole big deal where he told us immediately, which was great. He told his teacher immediately, which was great. And then when he came home and told us we really worked collaboratively and actually it was, I it's all due to my husband because he's been through this before he knew right away what we needed to do, which was get other kids who were in the room, who heard it to corroborate on Snapchat.
2 (31m 40s):
So we had our son basically reach out to these kids on staff and be like, Hey, remember that thing that kid said, blah, blah, blah. And he got like three kids to corroborate. I communicated with the mother and just said, I'm just letting you know that this happened. And we're going to be following up with the school. And then we wrote a kick-ass letter to the administration that was like, listen, you know, you have these policies that are great, but like, this is a racist town. And this is a big pro antisemitism is a big problem here. And like, basically, what are you going to do about it?
2 (32m 21s):
And, and also what can we do to help you? And it, it all had a very, mostly happy ending. The kid got suspended and dealt with and there, the school has already been working closely with the Anti-Defamation league. And we had a very productive with the principal and we all, it all felt great. The only downside was like that the kid who did it was popular. So, so kids were coming up to my son being like, why'd you get so-and-so suspended, but you know, I mean, nothing terrible. So I dinner on Sunday night and we're talking about something. And then I bring up like, how, how great I felt like the school handled that, that issue.
2 (33m 6s):
And then my other son goes, oh yeah, that reminds me. And then he tells us the story that last week on Thursday, he's in this class and this kid as a quote, unquote joke just starts being like ju ju ju ju ju, and then wrote a swastika on my son's water, water bottle. And he's telling us the story, like a, such an aside. And oh, and actually it got brought up because when I was talking about the first story I said, and I'm sure there's a bunch of other incidents that have happened like this, that you've never told us about. And then that's when my 13 year old pipes up and he goes, oh yeah, it happened to me on Thursday.
2 (33m 49s):
Well, it's significant because it's significant. But B because the very next day he, I got a phone call from the principal because they couldn't locate him right there called it was during our, she called me up and she said, we cannot locate your child. And it, and it turns out he was hiding in the bathroom and he, you know, and I thought it was because he just wanted to, you know, watch TV, which is what he did. He was watching TV on his phone and we had a whole constantly talk about it and consequences. And it was a whole thing. But then, and we're trying to ask him, what was it motivated by?
2 (34m 31s):
What was it motivated by? And he kept saying like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And then he tells us the story and it was that class, the class that he's left, that he skipped out on was the class that the day before this kid had done that job and we're going, honey, don't you think there's any relationship, but I understand why he teases. I understand why he keeps it separate in his mind, because if you really see it's too painful, right. So he's like, he kept saying like, but it really didn't affect me. And I said, okay, you know what, that's fine. It doesn't have to have affected you. And we're not going to pursue it in the same way that we pursued. The other thing, I mean, I did let the principal know, but we're not like asking for a meeting and asking for no punishment for this other kid.
2 (35m 17s):
We're just saying like, Hey, FYI, this is going on. And you know, the thing that I wanted to run by you is just like, as, as parents, we have to do a lot of balancing, standing up for our kids and doing the right thing with their desire. That's a very understandable to not be ostracized further for, for having said something. And it's just this untenable position where like, you're damned if you do. And you're damned if you don't, if you don't say anything and you go along, that's why this, this stuff persists. And if you do say something, then they say, why did you make such a big deal out of it?
2 (35m 58s):
Like we just can't win. And I actually don't even really know what I want to say about it, except for that it happened.
1 (36m 7s):
Yeah. Maybe you just need to say that it happened out loud. And like, also to know that one, it's a really, you're right. It's a, it's a, it's a unwinnable position and it is as a parents and it is a not there really that those kids and that, you know, this, this is happening to put you in that position. And it's really disturbing that it's happening. It's not altogether shocking, but it's disturbing. And I think it's like, yeah, what, what, when do we want to, what hill are we willing to die on in terms of, and you did make a stand with, with there, there, my guess is it's different schools or different schools.
1 (37m 1s):
So you took a stand with the high school, right? Yeah. Which I think is really important because high school is. So it's like, when you learn all this stuff about, oh my God, what is happening in the world? That's when I started to be like, oh my gosh, really? Knowing like, what's what is right? What is wrong and why, why? And social stuff. So I think, but I think that by, right, I think by doing that, you set a tone for the family and the town and that you, it, just, to me, it's like, it's not even pick your battles.
1 (37m 41s):
It's like pick where it's going to be painful. Right. So like, where does the pain, where am I focusing the pain body? And you can't focus it on too many things at one time, right. Or you'll die. I mean, everyone would have it. So you're doing what you're doing is like meeting of the minds of the parenting. I mean, I think you handled this situation impeccably in terms of not ignoring it, which is what God bless my parents, you know, probably would have done not getting completely hysterical and calling 9 1 1 and the news, because that that's like very reactionary and that's also would have been fine reaction, but I'm not sure that it helps the kid.
1 (38m 27s):
And you're so you did you, what I'm hearing is that you did, like, you did a concerted effort to like triage the situation in a way that was going to be the least amount of pain possible without sweeping it under the rug. And something was, cannot get swept under the rug because they just, as we know, come back bigger and batter and uglier.
2 (38m 50s):
And actually I had this very conversation with my son because he, he, he kept being like, it's not that big of a deal. And I said, listen, this is the thing that people don't realize when, when they think about genocide of any kind, it doesn't start with one day. Some tyrant comes in and starts killing everybody. It starts with like, don't you think those people are pretty lame. Don't you think those people are pretty disgusting? Don't you think those people are pretty evil? Let's kill them all. I mean, it's just like, it's just a series of steps that, you know,
1 (39m 23s):
You're readily.
2 (39m 24s):
If you could interject at steps one and two, maybe we don't get to step four. Maybe we do either way, but that's exactly what is that, that is the sort of creeping crud of our country right now.
1 (39m 39s):
It also ties, it ties into like Tim, for me, if I had a kid, I would say, listen, my people pleasing to sweep things under the rug has caused so much damage to myself and other people. And that by sweeping this under the rug or pretending and being that it didn't happen and not taking steps to protect you and our family and the rest of the world, what I'm doing is actually super harmful to us and is very dangerous in a way, my people pleasing desire to not follow through on this, which I can totally relate to. You know, if you might have that as a kid, I would say is going to kill us one day.
1 (40m 20s):
So like, I can't, you know, and it becomes like a, it's like a life and death, like dangerous health issue. You know what I mean? Like to ignore shit like this, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a health crisis, really, if you don't and I don't want to be a part of that anymore. And, and, but it's also like, yeah, it's going to be really uncomfortable. It's going to be really uncomfortable for everybody involved
2 (40m 45s):
Pretty much.
1 (40m 46s):
Wow. Wow. Okay. Get it together, get it together. Schools scattered to get it together, towns, get it together. And also it shouldn't just be, and I, I, I it's, it's interesting, you know, I will one final thing. It's like, get it together, allies. That's what I will say. We as allies that I, you know, I am not a Jewish person, but I had to, you know, it's like, I have to call myself out and say, okay, if I was in that classroom, what would I do? What would I say? Because it's going to happen in some contexts some way. And I am not Jewish. It doesn't matter that I'm not like, that's the thing.
1 (41m 27s):
You know
2 (41m 33s):
That,
3 (41m 37s):
Well, those survivors, this week we are guest lists or another way of saying it is we are the guests we are talking about on the essentially one year anniversary of our starting this endeavor, what our thoughts are now, after all these conversations, what we think now about survival, please enjoy.
1 (42m 4s):
I thought, I thought, you know, I thought that if you were right black and white thinking, like if someone said, no, that meant many things, but it meant no forever, no one, you know, on the core of who you are no forever, like you're done. And I'm realizing as I get this past year and a half as we've lived through this time, and as I've moved and as I, I, I just have realizing like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, things are a lot more loosey goosey than I would have predicted in my life in terms of everything is nothing.
1 (42m 49s):
Nothing, nothing seems linear anymore. Like, because of the pandemic and time doesn't seem linear anymore. And like, because the pandemic, all this and, and, and the aftermath and the election, nothing seems right. Predictable steps. Right. So I always thought that there were predictable steps in life. It's, couldn't be further from the truth. I, I, I'm just seeing it in front of my face with my life and other people's lives. So I wanted to share this response because when I shared about it online, people like messaged me and were like, oh my gosh, I so needed this. And I think the thing they needed is the idea that, right, right.
1 (43m 33s):
Someone could genuinely want to help you, but think that their help may harm you or not help you. Like, it's just not a right fit. And it does it. And, and, and look, they could be bullshitting too. It doesn't even, but like the thing is that their people aren't bad when they say no. And I think that comes down to, to, to my, you know, obviously my people pleasing and stuff like that. But I thought if someone told, you know, either you were bad or they were bad, someone had to be bad and oh, yeah. That's not true. I'm just like, oh, that's not the case. So like, anyway, I'm just having all these realizations this morning.
1 (44m 13s):
So I just wanted to share this letter because I think it's really important to put it out there to people that like you can be told. No, but it can also be a good thing. Like I just had no idea that this was possible, so, okay. I'm going to write, I'm going to read it. Cause it's so hopeful. So background is, I sent a query about my writing to a woman that I had followed and followed her clients and wanted just thought she's she's in New York city, but I thought, what the heck I'll reach out? She seems really cool. She has like, she, she puts on her Twitter profile that she's an advocate. So I was like, okay, I will totally, totally, totally reach out to this lady, which I did.
1 (44m 56s):
And I wrote a really kick ass letter. But the point is, I want to read this. Okay. Hi Jen. Well, thank you for one of the best query letters I've ever received. The next time I speaking to a class and telling them how to communicate by email, I should perform this. I couldn't agree more that you have all the makings of a future bad-ass TV writer. I know this is the perpetual AEA membership slash chicken and egg equation, but I don't think it would be helpful for me to introduce you cold to someone in my TV department. They are too overwhelmed with chasing the people, their clients and buyers are putting in their path and looking to NAB people out of the CAA ICM merger.
1 (45m 38s):
So I'll say this, if a showrunner meeting turns into a job offer and you're taking agency meetings, please circle back and I'll hook you up with someone in LA. In the meantime, know that you delighted an agent who gets terrible query emails all day long and wonders why anyone would waste their time writing them, which tells me someone with your savvy and Moxy and hustle is going to get their break and tear the walls down to remake Hollywood love.
2 (46m 8s):
Oh my goodness. Great.
1 (46m 13s):
So, so, so it's just, it's a case in point of like, this lady does not run at this moment to do the thing I want her to do, right. She does not want to have to introduce me to her lit team, but
2 (46m 27s):
She did a very important reason, a
1 (46m 30s):
Specific, important reason. She also took the time. What I'm saying is we can take the time to, if we are called to, to write or to respond in a way, even with a no, that is helpful for gosh. Even if she hadn't said it would have been enough, if she had said, thank you for your query. I don't think I can actually help you at this point. But she went further and all that stuff is lovely and it gives me hope and, and it, and it sort of speaks to me about survival. It's what helps me to survive is that kind of the kindness, but it's also just, it's just response. It just felt like a really responsible response.
2 (47m 13s):
Yes. And for people who have never had the privilege of reading of buzzes query letters, what you are is radically genuine. You, you get across information that everybody has to get across, like who you are and what you're asking for and what your background is and what you bring to the table. But you're not doing it in a boiler plate way. And I think that probably, maybe not a high percentage, but maybe the majority of people writing these letters, they've, they've looked online, they've looked for an example of a query letter. They've modified it, you know, to, with their particulars and called it a day. And your thing is like, no, no, let me tell you who I am.
2 (47m 55s):
And I, I couldn't agree with her more, first of all, and it's so amazing that she got to the scent, you know, she got, well, I mean, it's not so amazing because you told her exactly who you were. She knew exactly who you were and she saw the goodness in you.
1 (48m 15s):
I just was shocked. And I, and I celebrated as if she had said the thing I wanted her to say, it was crazy. And I've never done that in my life. Never. It was always like, oh yeah, she could say, or they could say all that stuff, but they didn't give me what I wanted. They didn't do the thing I wanted them to do, or I think I want them to do so I throw the baby out with the bath water and F that, or F me is more, more, but I just, this time, I thought I'm not going to do that
2 (48m 47s):
When I'm casting something and I have people to call backs and then I don't cast them. I write them all individual emails. And I say, listen, this, I don't maybe necessarily say like, this is what you don't have, but I say, this is what you do have. And I'm sorry, it didn't work out for this. And to a person. They all wrote me back like, oh my God, I can't believe you took the time to, and granted I'm not like some big wig, so I have more time, but still put putting just a little goes a long way. And this is, this is the thing that I'm hearing kind of in the zeitgeists right now, apropos of, you know, Broadway being back and people on theater, Twitter are saying, listen, we're not going to return to just these work 24 hours a day and make $5 like that, that, that has to be over.
2 (49m 43s):
And this is that classic thing of like, is, does one grain of whatever it was one drop of water, make a difference. No, but an ocean can kill the entire population. So if people band together, well, if people identify who they are, identify what they want, figure out the boundaries that, that, that they have, and then stick to them. That is undeniable. You can't have a bunch of executives or people in charge hiring people.
2 (50m 23s):
If all of those people say, I refuse to be treated badly. Right. It's got to start somewhere. Yeah. It's got to start somewhere and it's, and so I really feel a sea change. And I think it is another, you know, silver lining of the pandemic because people have really, re-evaluated, what's important to them. And a lot of people are saying, I don't need to stand for this, you know, mistreatment anymore. So good for you. That's awesome. And that is atta boys and girls. That is one of the things that helps you survive. Yeah. So I just wanted to start out with that because I just really that's fantastic.
2 (51m 6s):
So today we are without a guest, but today we're, it's been a year since we started this podcast. And w I think that when we started it, we, we thought, or I'll speak for myself when we started it. I thought, oh, this'll be a fun way to kind of put ourselves out there so that we can then go on and do the next thing. And what I've come to is this is, yeah, it is fun, but this is turns out to be an important thing on its own. Even if it's only for the, you know, 200 people who are directly affected, you know, by the stories that we've been telling about their theater school experience.
2 (51m 55s):
Because the thing that I've been coming to in this last year and a half, I mean, and I'll preface this to say, like, if you don't like to hear about touchy, feely things, maybe this isn't going to be the episode for you. I have changed and learned so much in these last months, years. I mean, it's like a toe, it's nothing short of a total transformation in terms of what's important. And, and I previously would've thought of a transformation as only being something that happened to me externally, how I looked okay.
2 (52m 38s):
But the transformation that really needed to happen this whole time, it was an internal transformation. It was started by, I mean, it was started by a lot of things. It was, it was accelerated by the pandemic and by my sister's death. And by this podcast, having the opportunity to reflect, to help people reflect on their time and then to in turn, reflect on my time. And I've really like, pretty much answered all of the questions about why, what happened, happened in a way that I didn't know that I needed to do.
2 (53m 19s):
I didn't know when we started this, that I needed to process theater school. I had no idea when I decided to not pursue a career in this anymore. I shut the door and I pretended like it was over. And I pretended, like, I didn't need to think about it again. I also pretended like, I didn't need to have a creative outlet and that, you know, and it was problematic for that, but this has made me, yeah, just this isn't made me do something that I didn't know needed to be done. And we have heard the same thing from other yeah.
1 (54m 0s):
Over and over. I mean, I think it's just the idea. Yeah. It turned from sort of a, yeah, like a, I, I agree like a way of saying, Hey, here we are. What is the vehicle that we can sort of, that we have a common bond between us, a common shared experience in our past. And let's talk about that. And then let's bring on people that also like, let's make the circle bigger, but it really has turned into this, this, this healing opportunity for us big time. But also for other people that like, have never talked about their experience, going to a theater conservatory ever before.
1 (54m 44s):
And I mean, that's insane. So it, it, it, to me, if nothing else, the people, yeah. If nothing else you're right. Like even if, even if it was just for us, even if it was just for you and me, even if it was just for you, even if it was just for, but it's not. But even if it was, I think that's important because like you said, there, there, we never fully shut the door on anything. You can pretend good for you. If you can pretend maybe good for you. I dunno. But like, you, you can't, it doesn't work that way. Like, that's not how we're built as animals, right. It just, you can try good luck to you.
1 (55m 25s):
It comes back, it comes back, everything comes back. And it, it has to, because either it comes back and you deal with it, or it comes back and you keep trying to shut the door until you either, you know, whatever becomes harmful. It becomes a painful, harmful reminder that you're not looking at something and you can, you can deny it. I could deny it for the rest of my life, but let me tell you something. It's, it's, I, I, I'm going to have, I mean, it's not just the theater school, but any experience, then I'm going to have heart issues. Right. I know for me, if I don't deal with my rage and that's part of going to the whole theater school and becoming an actor and not being picked and all that shit that we talked about that, or talk about that, it turns into rage for me and sadness.
1 (56m 12s):
If I don't look at my rage and sadness, I get really sick. I'm not saying I cause it, I want it. I deserve it. But I'm saying that is my experience, that when I don't deal with my shit, I end up in trouble, trouble, like tangible trouble that I need medications for.
2 (56m 27s):
Yeah. And my experience when I don't deal with that stuff is that I am hard to love and, and hard to give love, you know, like that's where, that's where things go off the rails for me, because what I have also learned is my primary coping mechanism that I'm sure I've had since childhood is dissociation. It is too, which is why I feel like theater school was a fog, which is why I have about certain areas of my life. Just memory gaps, depression causes memory loss too, or affects your memory. But, but specifically I've realized for me, it's trauma.
2 (57m 8s):
It's my ability to rut, you know, float outside of my body and behave as though I'm not really there. Yeah. I mean, and I'm not really,
1 (57m 21s):
And it is, you know, I've been, I watched another documentary about did disorder, dissociative identity disorder, and the first case posts the whole like right around the Sibyl time and that, but anyway, but, but one thing, whether or not the guy's faking or not, one thing you cannot deny is that the trauma of a human being a so T is, so it is so undeniable. The trauma is so undeniable that whether or not the guy was faking did, or whether we dissociation, we know comes from pain.
1 (58m 2s):
So two, you can deny anything you want, but the guy, whether the pain is self caused or other people hurt us. It's the real deal.
2 (58m 9s):
By the way, I just like to say something about when people talk about, you know, faking mental illness, faking mental illness is just a different kind of mental illness. Exactly. You are in a position where you don't have a certain illness and you feel that you need to pretend that you do, then you just have a different, we're just looking at the wrong thing.
1 (58m 35s):
So brilliant. Because, because it's like, let's look at why these people are lying. Lying comes from another coping mechanism because the truth is so painful. So it's all you're right. It's all part of the same thing. It's just the way it comes out yet. So, and also, yeah, if someone, yeah, right. I also don't give a shit if someone's faking a mental illness, unless they're trying to extort something from me because they're in pain like pain. So I think that that's the thing is like whether the trauma of going to theater school was minor medium or major. I think people are really sort of craving opportunities to look at it in a safe way.
1 (59m 19s):
That's not like we're not going to judge them. We're also, we don't care about the party line. We're not like we're also not police. We're not doing investigations on who did what and who said what? That's not our job. Our job, I think is really just to hold a space. And like, like for me anyway, provide a space and with humor and compassion and, and, and some sort of maybe insights, we hadn't the person our guests may not have thought about before and asking some questions, but like, yeah, we're providing a space for people to look at some of the stuff that went down that maybe is still affecting them today and getting in the way maybe of like having a light.
2 (59m 58s):
Yeah. Yeah. So I wrote down some notes too, and I thought maybe I would just go through them and you can, you can jump in when something resonates with you. But so in the year, since we began the podcast, I've had several major internal shifts. I began the journey of returning to my artistic brain about three years ago. And prior to that, it had been a long and dark tunnel that I wasn't sure I would ever get out of truly. I, wasn't not sure I would ever get out of the, just completely dark. I mean, I don't want to go too far into it, but I was, I went through a dark time and I didn't think it was gonna end.
2 (1h 0m 44s):
And
1 (1h 0m 45s):
How did it, I just want to know, like, I, I'm curious about the, you said like a creative, I mean, it sounds like it was dark in general, but in specific, like what was the creativity part that got shut down? Like, do you know like,
2 (1h 0m 58s):
Ah, well, when, when I decided to become a therapist, it was in part, a decision to, to leave behind any kind of thought of acting or writing or directing or making a living in the theater. Got it. And I think I just dealt with it in the way of like, I just closed the door and I couldn't see plays. It was too painful for me to go to see a play. And I mean, I watched TV and movies and stuff like that, but I really divorced myself that I felt like I must've felt like that was the only safe way to do it, you know, just completely shut it down.
2 (1h 1m 50s):
And w I did this without knowing that that would hurt me,
1 (1h 1m 55s):
Of course. Right. You're not, you didn't try to hurt yourself. Right. Cause I,
2 (1h 1m 59s):
I thought this thing about being an artist or whatever, it was just a luxury, it's just a, you know, like I, I never thought, and I know people would disagree with this, but that's okay. I never thought that art was a very vital and I'm like, like you have to have it in humanity has to have it. And we know this because humanity has had it since cave paintings. Okay. We have an innate desire to make meaning of our lives, through the expression of art full stop. And if you're a person who, for whatever reason is born with this need to express yourself in an artistic way, you simply cannot ignore it.
2 (1h 2m 44s):
B B because it's like having a thirst or a hunger that, you know, it doesn't go away just because you're not feeding it. In fact, it creates depression. I think, I think it created a depression in me. Does that answer your question? That answers my question completely. Yeah. Very, very good. So being able to express myself and to find meaning where I had lost my way was crucial, has been crucial to my ability to flourish. And even though it's been almost two years of a pandemic, I've somehow found a kind of personal wellness. I wasn't sure I would ever return to thinking about my time at the theater school began as a heavy thick cloud. There was debris I needed to wait way through.
2 (1h 3m 26s):
This is informed somewhat by I just watched the nine 11 documentary and I had never, I never have gone to the museum or anything like that. I really never engaged with it. I, I I've seen those. I had seen those pictures of people covered in the dust, but I hadn't ever really walked myself through what happened when the, when the, when the buildings collapsed and how that created nothing short of, of like a volcano of debris. When I was watching it, I was thinking, okay, this is kind of what I was doing in the younger part of my life. Sort of walking through in this haze and this cloud.
2 (1h 4m 9s):
And I don't know, but I'm just going to keep walking. And so that, that informed this little image I have here. And so the, so my relationship to myself needed the greatest examination. And my relationship with others was both a thing that saved me in theater school. The biggest reason I think I survived in theater school was because of others, but it was the thing. So here's the thing. Life is with others. There's a good book by Donald Cohen called life is with others. You S maybe some people can have very select few people, but you have to live your life with other people.
2 (1h 4m 50s):
We're pack animals. And if you, if your ability to relate to other people is impaired. If your ability to re to relate to yourself as impaired, you feel you suffer, you feel isolated, you feel alone. And, and I think where I hurt myself, I also hurt other people, my, my inability to get, get out of my own self centered fear at times my made me not present for my friends who were the reason that I survived.
2 (1h 5m 33s):
Right? That's this tricky little thing that I'm trying to unpack right now. And you and I have said a lot like that, we feel guilty that there's people who we don't really remember and, and things that we don't really remember, but it's not because those people weren't important or memorable it's because we were too under the cloud of our own debris. Yeah.
1 (1h 5m 60s):
Yeah. That is such a good way to put it. And, and literally the level of immaturity because of my trauma and because of my pain and my self centered, and that turns into self centered fear I could not see is this it's as if I had blinders on to really see people and listen to them and be present. Like you said, like, yeah, it was not possible the way I was functioning. I think it was either. Yeah. I mean, I, for me, I, I, I'm pretty sure it was either like, sort of like put the blinders on or you're going to die. I mean, like, what, what are you going to do? So you put your, you just get covered in the stuff and you keep walking.
1 (1h 6m 41s):
I heard that
2 (1h 6m 42s):
This quote, one time on a podcast that was about a reality show. And this guy said, I think he was describing a person. I think she went on this Ray. I think she didn't know who she was. And so she went on a reality show hoping to find herself. And I think that's what a lot of people are drawn to theater school. And you don't know who I am. I mean, yeah. They like acting they're artists, whatever, but I don't know who I am. Maybe I'll find it out here and not just say you don't do that with other programs too. I'm sure you can do that with a variety of programs, but it really like, it really gets highlighted in theater school because we're being asked to access ourselves so much. I mean,
1 (1h 7m 21s):
It's so interesting. It's like, there is a mix of, and maybe this is how like conservatory trainings developed. And I've talked a little bit about this before, but there's like a, such a crazy mix of touchy, feely find yourself, but also no don't indulge yourself and do the hard work and be really professional. It's a very complicated task to merge those two. So like roll around on the floor and learn, learn who you are and express yourself freely, but not, but not too much. And also in this way, that is still going to create a good product that is still going to, you know, it, there are rules, you know, and, and I think it was like, I just didn't under, I didn't understand the rules.
1 (1h 8m 8s):
Like I couldn't, I couldn't say, oh, okay. Like, come as you are, but not, but don't take up too much time or space or energy from people. So it was a mixed, it's a mixed message. And I think that's just the nature of training and schooling and yeah. Yeah. So I felt like, oh yeah, I can find out who I am at this hippy-dippy place, but not really. Like, it's not really, that's not the point of it really.
2 (1h 8m 33s):
Yeah. Like you, and I think we weren't ready to. I mean, there, there's a reason that people don't come to this stuff until there are ages. There's a reason why this is always the part of people's lives, where they start to do reflection at you when you're in the middle of setting your life up and creating all the architecture and infrastructure for your life. Life is extremely fast paced and it's all, life is a lot more about the logistics when you're younger and my next job. And I have to move to my next apartment in my next relationship and dah, dah, dah, dah, that is very consuming.
2 (1h 9m 16s):
So most people by the time they're our age, a lot of that has settled down. They know what their partner is and they know where they're living. And, and then, and then it's time because even if we had had the greatest therapist, let's say, when we were in theater school, we would not have been capable of doing the work that we needed to do. Yeah. Okay. So Yeah. Memory gaps related to the trauma that I hadn't processed before theater school, that made me dissociate while I was there. What actually made me survive.
2 (1h 9m 58s):
I haven't been previously aware of the importance I have not previously. And this is germane of what I was saying about life is with others. I really think I have mostly taken relationships for granted in my life. Like relationships. It's not a thing you have to work on. It's not, you know, it's just, there's people in your life and therefore you have relationships with them. And if they leave your life, you know, maybe that's painful. But I had not really seen that. Our relationship is like a, I don't want to say it's like a job, but it's like a, it's a project having a relationship with somebody is a project that you have to have an intention for and you have to have skills to do it well, and you have to have the capacity to assess how you're doing with it.
2 (1h 10m 57s):
And, and, and not, not to make it seem like it's, I don't know, financial thing. I just mean if you're not treating your relationships, like they're a thing that you have to work on, then you should probably work on that. Yeah.
1 (1h 11m 13s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, yeah. I didn't know. I don't think what relationships were. I thought relationships were because, because I think my self esteem was so low. I thought it was like the only relationship that, that really mattered was the one with your parents. And then the one with your romantic interest. Right. Love interests. Right.
2 (1h 11m 37s):
1 (1h 11m 42s):
Right. Right. It's not relationships really. But that's what I thought it was. I thought it was that. And now I'm like, oh, I have to participate in my own life. Like I have to, I am part, I live here in this life. Like, I didn't think I lived here. You know, when people say, you know, I like her, but there's no, there, there, I never understood what that meant until I'm like, oh, because I felt like I can relate to that of not being a, their, their, you know, not being a there, there in my own life. And I'm like, oh, yes. There's no, there's no, there, there, you have to be there in your own life.
1 (1h 12m 24s):
Like fully present to show up. And I never knew, okay. Miles. We've got this situation going, oh, it got a little
2 (1h 12m 32s):
Doors.
1 (1h 12m 32s):
Hello, dog smiles. Can you get to her side of here? She came in. Dar she's a star. Doris is a star. What? Okay. I don't know. She opens the door. She's magic. All right. Sorry about that
2 (1h 12m 55s):
Retention. Thanks.
1 (1h 12m 57s):
Okay. Anyway, once your attention, if there. Yeah, she totally does. So if there's no, there, there you have no hope of ever getting better in getting, having better relationships. I didn't understand that. I thought, oh, you're pretty and skinny. And you, then you find someone that adores you and then you find relationships that are great because people hire you. I didn't get it. I, I didn't get it. And so when people are like, go back, come back to me and say, you know, I always thought you were, so you were so nice, but you were so like, oh, like even in grad school, these people were like, oh, you always left at lunch and went and got a manicure or like weren't available to us.
1 (1h 13m 39s):
And I was like, what? Because I spent the whole time thinking they didn't like me. They were all part of a thing. I lived in Chicago. They lived in LA and my school, my grad school. And I flew in, I didn't, I just totally separated myself. But believe me, it wasn't because I ha I had a choice. I felt I had a choice.
2 (1h 13m 58s):
Oh girl. I relate to that so much. That exact thing. I have left so many social situations with the assumption that the people didn't like me and that I needed to remove myself from them only to find out later that they were, they didn't like it. That I left
1 (1h 14m 14s):
My friend. Yes. My, I remember my friend. I met up with her later, Alexis, Alexa. And she was, and we met like 10 years after grad school tow so much had happened in both of our lives. And she was like, I always really wanted to be your friend, but you seemed so busy and preoccupied. I'm like, oh my God, that is the, I mean, I was preoccupied with my own stuff, but like, that's like the furthest thing. Yeah. I had nothing going on.
2 (1h 14m 44s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I really B because I, and by the way, I'm not saying that any 19 year old is amazing at having relationships. I'm not saying that I could, that I'm alone and being self-centered in my fear, but, but, but I'm just, it's significant to me that I'm now really able to own that. And so at the end of the day, the thing that helped me survive theater school was my friendships. My very first friend close friendship was with Whitney Powell.
2 (1h 15m 26s):
I haven't, I don't think I've ever really mentioned Whitney on the podcast. I don't even really necessarily remember how we became friends, but we were friends from like day one and we did everything together. And she was from the Chicago land area. So she like had a car and she introduced me to great things. And we did lots of drugs together, which even though, you know, I wouldn't do that now. It was very important to me at the time. It actually, drugs really did kind of open an important window for me or a door, whatever you want to call it in my life.
2 (1h 16m 6s):
And then I became friends with Russell and he was a steadfast friend through school, Russell harden. And then I became friends with you. And I was so sad when you left in third year, because I just missed you so much. TJ was, was a great support to me, Patrick Belton, Sean Spratt, JP Cabrera, Chris Gerber, Jeff Brown, Anthony LoCascio Dave to small shin, Libby, Scott, who did not go to the theater school, but who I lived with and Dan Alexander are all people who helped me learn about myself and helped me in my endeavor to, to make art.
2 (1h 16m 54s):
And I'm sorry to all of the people that I really ignored and that I really didn't make time for. And I can tell you that it was not about you, whoever you are. It was about whatever my weird ass ideas were about who, you know, whatever myself, what I needed, what I didn't need. I'm not saying I would do it all over again differently because it had to be the way that it was. But anyway, I feel so much gratitude for the people. Oh. And not to mention the professors, you know, even if, even when I've had negative things to say they also opened doors for me.
2 (1h 17m 36s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 17m 37s):
I, I, I think that's, it's just nice to hear that. Like, yeah. Like I feel supported that I was supported through that time and know that yes. I, I just wasn't able, I didn't have the capacity to be a better friend.
2 (1h 17m 58s):
Yeah. Yeah. It's
1 (1h 17m 60s):
Just the truth. And I've worked on myself and I've, I've, I figured some things out, but I think this has, this has been, it's interesting to also come back to this and have guests on and, and everyone that we've had on pretty much from at least from the, you know, from DePaul, hasn't been like, like people forgive, like people who've been moved on for the most part, even though we have these painful trauma spots and pain spots, people are really like, for the most part, like I have found in my life, like, people are really not even forgiving, but they're like, they're like open, they've done their own.
1 (1h 18m 45s):
They've tried in some way, most of us to do their own work in some shape or form. And nobody's like, you know, there's very few people I've met that were like, oh my God, you were, you were, you were a jerk to me and I'll never forgive you or whatever.
2 (1h 19m 0s):
Yeah, no, because by the way, they were all inside of their own self centered too. Right. They're remembering their experiences through the lens of like thinking that everybody didn't like them. Oh, I mean, I just, I would love if I, if I could be a witch and conjure, I would love to go back in time and just have, go to one class and sit there and just watch how we all were, how we all related to each other, what we were clearly focused on, what, you know, I, it would be fast and I would pay $1 million to do that.
1 (1h 19m 44s):
I think I would be so simultaneously like petrified and excited. And like, I hope that I wouldn't spend the whole time going, oh my God, I was so skinny. And I thought I was so fat. Like, that's my fear. But, but after I got over that, I would, I would hope that I would be, I think I would get over that and start watching everybody and be like, oh my gosh, we all such hilarious, precious, weird kids, kids that were just trying to get through. And some of us, you know, had more heads, more savvy in terms of getting through than others. And, but look, Hey, has anyone have you ever, this is a side note.
1 (1h 20m 29s):
Has anyone passed away that we know of from our
2 (1h 20m 32s):
Class, from our class?
1 (1h 20m 34s):
Isn't that,
2 (1h 20m 36s):
I'm the only person, the only person I ever think of as having died, like kind of close to that time or whatever was Michael Maggio, but not a students. I don't think so. Although there's some people I Just never heard, you know, I've never heard from,
1 (1h 20m 53s):
I just, I it's just weird. Cause you think we made it pretty far. If none of us really croaked, I mean, shit, the odds, you know, not good, but anyway, so yeah, I mean, I would love to go back as well. And I wish some of that, none of it was taped. Right. Cause this is pre
2 (1h 21m 11s):
Yeah. None of it. I know. That's what I was thinking too, watching that nine 11 documentary like, wow, there was enough people. I mean, I barely had a cell phone in 2001, there was enough people with cameras and it was before smartphones. So they weren't cameras on their phone. They had to have had a video camera.
1 (1h 21m 32s):
So I have a friend. Yeah. I have a friend that said as soon as, because her dad was an artist and I believe photographer and, and I believe instilled in her like always start taking pictures. So she was down there that day and she went into a bodega and bought like 10 disposable cameras and just started clicking, clicking, clicking, Clichy knew. But I would have been so scared. I mean, I wouldn't have the, for the insight to do that, but yet people started clicking. They started, I mean, people knew.
2 (1h 22m 2s):
Yeah. And because of that, they, you know, they were, they've been able to make these comprehensive, you know, putting together the story because that was the thing about that day is like, you know, on the news, they did not want to show the people jumping from the buildings. Thank you for that. But that means, I didn't know about that. And for, until like five years ago, right. I, I had some vague understanding. Did you sit there all day and watch the news?
1 (1h 22m 32s):
Yeah. So I, I did for like the first we had a TV, which is shocking, cause we don't know, but it would have been all on. Anyway, we had an actual TV, I didn't have a cell phone, but yes. I watched the news for the first three days straight. And then, and then my, my roommate at the time was like, we gotta stop. We can't, this is, this is name.
2 (1h 22m 56s):
Yeah. Yeah. It was insane, but it was okay. And here's another weird thing about processing stuff. I didn't have anything to do with nine 11. My closest connection to it was that I was supposed to have been working there. You know, when I was contemplating doing a graduate degree in that's something we've never talked about before I had a conversation for another time, I went through this period of trying to go to graduate school for some esoteric theater.
2 (1h 23m 36s):
I don't even, I say, I can't even remember. It was trying to get my PhD in theater, somehow theater, not like theater of the mind. I like abstract concepts of theater. It was just the wrong thing for me. But one of the programs that I was looking at was that NYU and I got into it. And the reason I did and I was working at Deloitte and Touche in San Francisco at the time. And I had met with, or talked with somebody from corporate and they said that I could work part-time at the one. And it was at, it was at one of the shorter world trade. And I also, and I already knew what my schedule was going to be because I was going to have class Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then I was going to work on Tuesdays and Thursday.
2 (1h 24m 17s):
So I know I would have been there. That's the only connection I have to it. But I still, it was a trauma for our oh yeah. You know, even if you didn't, if you weren't there, even if you don't know anybody who died and, and as it turns out, I needed to process that too. And I watched this documentary and for me, I think the processing was like, oh, now I just have the story. Like I didn't have the story turning point. I'm sorry. Is it called turning point? Oh no, it's a national geographic thing. And I have, there's a million documentaries about nine 11. I've never watched any of them. And I thought, you know, it's probably time for me to like revisit that.
2 (1h 25m 1s):
And I did what I remember the, the, the traumatic thing I was working as a teacher in, oh, I enrichment California. So it was six 30 in the morning in California. We didn't have a TV. My, I didn't have a cell phone. So my, our phone was ringing. We were asleep and my phone was, our phone was ringing. And it was the time where millennials, we used to get answering machines. And when people would call, you could hear it turn on you. It would be a tape. And I fucking can't believe we have to explain this, but yes, they, and my mom was calling and then my half asleep.
2 (1h 25m 47s):
I'm like, why is she calling me so earlier, so early? And I heard her say she was, I heard her crying saying, I think it's world war three. I don't. I'm like, well, my mom's being dramatic. I went back to sleep. My dad, my dad calls Punkin, are you okay? So I got up and I went, I'm like, how do we, there's no TV. How do you find it? I ran down to grand avenue and I went into a bunch of places. Like, do you have a TV? And they're like, no, no. So I went into a bakery that had the guy, the guy was playing a radio and I just sat there.
2 (1h 26m 33s):
And, but then I had to go to work. So I got dressed and I went to work. And when I got there, you know, the, the, the administration was kinda milling around and they had, we had, we started the day with an assembly and, and then the principal told us what was happening more than what I knew. I thought it was an accident by the w by the time I was at school, I thought it was an accident. And when he told us I just started crying and then my students were shocked. You know, they were really affected by that. And I felt like I had to lie to them about why I was crying.
2 (1h 27m 13s):
I said, oh, I know people in New York, because I had this idea that it wasn't acceptable for me to be upset. Right. A bunch of people I didn't know, were dying. So anyway, so if you haven't processed nine 11 and you need to, I recommend watching a documentary about it. It's funny to think about the things that you like. You'd really just have to work through it all.
1 (1h 27m 39s):
You just really do. There's no, there's no way around it. If you're committed to personal health, like inner and outer, you, you got to process stuff. It's really hard. And it sucks, but I don't know of a different way.
2 (1h 27m 54s):
Yeah. Yeah. So what is the overarching thing that helped you survive?
1 (1h 28m 5s):
I would say the overarching thing that has helped me survive. Well, I'll start first in the small term is like this, of this last right of this last couple of years, or I don't even know, like the pandemic seems to have gone on for like this weird time. So I can't even say, but I would say the last two years has been a year and a half due, literally doing the next right thing for me, because I feel like taking care of immediate needs, processing information and trying to take the next right step has been the only way to not get overwhelmed and want to revert to really old behaviors, meaning that, and the way I could do that is just support of a team of a team of a team.
1 (1h 29m 8s):
So I am a huge proponent of when I started my healing work, I would say was really when my dad died right at 30. And I thought, I, it was the first time in my life. I was 30 years old. It was 2006. I thought I cannot do this by myself. It was the first time in my life. I knew that I, I was out of my league in terms of I can handle this. I could do this. I can make this work. I can, I can cope first time of my life. And that lesson has saved me of knowing that I, I cannot do it on my own, has saved me through the pandemic, through all the hard things in my life, meaning assemble a team, but like a real team, meaning I don't even mean a business team.
1 (1h 29m 54s):
People are like, what are you talking? But like, get yourself a care team. I think we all need care teams. Now look easier said than done, but let me tell you something I've gone to clinics. I've gone to free shit. I've gone to, I knew I've gotten free acupuncture. Like I think what, how I survive is somehow an a, maybe it's being the sort of neglected child of two weirdos, that the amount of resources that I am able to gather in a short amount of time, despite being in tremendous pain, the resource gathering has helped me to survive. So like, who do I need to call? Who can I contact? What, where can I, and then I was able to do that with my clients as a therapist.
1 (1h 30m 37s):
And then when my mom died, I was able to do it again for myself. And then when the pandemic hit, same thing, I was like, okay, what do we need? So it's interesting. I'm extremely right. As scared as I feel a lot of times when push comes to shove, I'm extremely good at gathering resources in a crisis. So I think that has helped me. It has also not allowed me at times to process things as they're happening, which I don't think we can do really, but, but, but it is. And it has prolonged my, my PR like opening back the door, but in the moment, if I can say, Hey, right, how can I get through this?
1 (1h 31m 22s):
Who can I ask for help? How can I help? It has, that has been my saving, saving grace of like my whole life of resource resource gathering and asking for help, even though I don't want to, but when push comes to shove, I shove, I will, I will say, Hey, I'm really struggling. But I learned that at 30. And I think it's helped me extremely in the last 16 years. So I cannot tell you the, the, the humbling, horrific hell experience of literally when my dad died dropping, I remember being in miles old childhood home, which was falling apart and being like dropping to my knees at one point and saying, okay, I cannot do this.
1 (1h 32m 12s):
I don't know. Who's running the show here. People talk about God, people talk, but I literally am at my wit's end. And it was the first time in my life that I had ever felt like that. And as scary as it was, it sort of led me to, to being really open, to asking for help. So for me, survival is extremely linked, like true survival, like not just getting by true survival is linked to gathering resources and asking for help in any given situation. And that, that is just a team is so essential for when shit goes wrong, because it always goes wrong. Yeah.
2 (1h 32m 52s):
It takes a village.
1 (1h 32m 53s):
It literally does. I thought that was garbage. I thought that was complete. I thought that's what people say, who aren't strong enough, savvy enough. Cool. Enough, pretty enough. Thin enough, whatever enough. I thought that's garbage and it is truly not garbage. It is. It's not garbage because like the cave paintings, we've known about villages since the beginning of freaking humankind. So of course it takes a village
2 (1h 33m 19s):
And there's all, what makes me sad sometimes is to think about all the people like my sister, who are in their house right now, feeling alone, feeling isolated. And, and the thing is isolation because isolation, the more isolated you are, the less you can entertain the idea of ever reaching out to somebody or, or, or being with people. And I, I, I just, it pains me to think about how many people continue. Even with all the information that's available to all of us persist with the, with the false belief that nobody understands them.
2 (1h 34m 2s):
Nobody can help them, that they're unique in their suffering. It, that's why they call it in 12 step programs, terminal uniqueness, the more unique you think you are in your pain and your suffering, the likely you likely are, you are to die from that.
1 (1h 34m 23s):
The other thing I would say is like, if you are in pain, please wander into some kind of support group and you don't have to say anything. But that is, that is what saved me in terms of all kinds of groups, but like just wandering in and sitting down figuring and, and being like, I'm never coming back here again or whatever, but like just wander in and, and figure and sit down for a little bit, because if nothing else, so people are like, okay, but why did you end up, you know, in like, Alanon your dad, you know, your dad, wasn't a drinker. He was addicted to anyway, whatever it was literally like being, cause we don't have as adults, places to go to be babysat, right?
1 (1h 35m 8s):
Like we, we don't have that unless you check in somewhere, which is if you need to check in and check in, but I'm just saying like, I wasn't trying to hurt myself. I just didn't have anywhere to go. And so going to a 12 step group or any kind of support group, that's free, whatever your jam is. It was like, baby, I went to three meetings a day. Like I, because I had, what else was I doing? The other thing was I was going to be alone in my house, on my knees, crying and freaking out that I could not sustain because that would lead eventual to self harm. Because like, like we know like my father, like your sister that doesn't lead anywhere. That's good.
1 (1h 35m 49s):
So somewhere I must have known. And you know, I met people that were like, just come to this group. And I was like, I don't really belong here, but I have literally nothing else. In some ways I was blessed and encouraged that I had no job. I had no, nothing. I had nothing in my life other than a place to stay at my mother's house. Like, that's what I had. And so I was like, what do I do? Literally during the day, I don't know what to do. And I'm freaking out. And they were like, just go to a meeting. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm going to church. Okay. Whatever. And then I thought, oh my gosh, these people aren't. I mean, some of them are weird, but like, no one's saying to me, what's your problem. What's wrong with you. You don't belong here. You have to hold it together.
1 (1h 36m 30s):
So they were saying things that worked for me and it was free. And I had nothing else to do. Literally my mother was working, everyone else was like, we have a life. Like, I don't know what you're doing. PS.
2 (1h 36m 41s):
There's not a person in the world who can't find some 12 step group to relate to, like right. As I've said, many times, our world is riddled with co-dependence. Even if your parents didn't drink, if you relate to the things that we've been talking about, trust me, I always say this about somebody else so that I know. Yeah. Your parents didn't drink, but your, you grew up in an alcoholic family. I don't know how else to tell you, but that's what they did. They did all of the other behaviors, you know,
1 (1h 37m 11s):
Coda, like go to any, I don't care what it is. If you have nowhere to go, those people will take you. I telling you, they will take you. And the shit is free. That's what I always say.
2 (1h 37m 23s):
Yeah. And the, and the principles are universally applicable. Yeah. And it didn't have to be about alcohol
1 (1h 37m 28s):
And it, and it just gave me a plate. Literally. Like I had no place to go until I got a little better. And then I could say, okay, now I feel like I could make an NPS. I ended up going to a day program because I was like, okay, I think I need a higher level of care because I'm not, I'm not functioning. And these people are trained in mental health. So let me go there. And I have the resources insurance-wise thank you, Nicholas cage. And so let me just go. And I was able to, but if you need a place to land, that's not going to like judge you and like, and like B and be assholes, then find yourself a 12 step group. That's how I've survived. That's really, all I can say is like people that have helped me and groups and then resources just re finding resources.
2 (1h 38m 15s):
And they're all Mo almost every 12 step group is, has online options now, or even calling. They have the, you know, you can call in to a meeting and you don't even have to say anything. You've got a word on your walk and have your ear phones in and just be listening to people. It's, it's it never ceases to amaze me. I finally gotten to the point where I can tell myself if I'm feeling bad, Hey, you probably need to reach out to somebody, but it still never ceases to amaze me how much better I feel when I put myself out there and ask for somebody's help. And they're able to give it to me. I mean, the danger is for me, has always been.
2 (1h 38m 57s):
Sometimes they can't help you, but that doesn't mean it's, you're not worthy of the whole,
1 (1h 39m 3s):
Just for that. You don't mean you need to find someone else then, because, because you just go to the neck, like you, you can, I just, yeah, you, you, you just go, okay, that person not a good fit. I'm not going to, but I'm in so much pain and I need so much help that I'm willing to try someone else. You'll find someone that says something to you that is going to click with you eventually. And, and, you know, I remember, I mean, and it's just, I just don't want people to sit also in feeling misinformation in terms of like, when I started having panic attacks, this was even earlier when I, you know, at the chinos on my first panic attack ever was on epigenomes on Lincoln and Webster, right. Or somewhere around there.
1 (1h 39m 43s):
Yeah. Seinfeld was on. And I remember thinking, oh, I'm schizophrenia because I had no information about, so I walked around thinking I'm schizophrenia until I finally went to a doctor who said, no, you are, you have a panic disorder. And I was like, what is that? So, anyway, we need to know for me and all my struggles, too, what has survived helped me survive. Especially during the pandemic is get the data. And especially with my own health things, I'm like, get the data, get more information don't before you freak the F out, get some data. Everybody look at the data, helps have someone help you look at the data and then make a choice. That's what helps me survive. Because when I'm making choices from that place inside me, that is the really, really traumatized and neglected five-year-old.
1 (1h 40m 30s):
It is not a good, it never, it never works out well, like for me, you know, it's not like it even looks bad, it just feels really bad. So, yeah. Get the data is the other thing that's helped me survive. Like, what's the information here, by the
2 (1h 40m 44s):
Way, how's it going with your five-year-old
1 (1h 40m 46s):
Self? You know, it's going badly. I feel a little, so my five-year-old self I've sort of placed Doris. Oh, I love that. Yes, absolutely. When, because sometimes with my own self I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm doing this. This is ridiculous. I'm talking to my five. This is crazy. Blah, blah, blah. So I put it into my little puppy and I'm like, oh my God, would I tell her like, shut up, get it together. You piece of, you know, and I'm like, I would never say that if someone was saying that to Doris, I would literally throw them over a bridge. So like, I, I put it into Georgetown. I'm just like, okay, I patience. So then I'm like, can I have patients for myself? This, you know, the dog is learning where to pee and poo, am I going to berate the dog or I'm going to try to teach the dog.
1 (1h 41m 33s):
So that's what I, and then I'm like, can I show that compassion for myself? Sometimes they can. Sometimes they can't, but it's better than then. Like, cause I had closed, like we were talking about, I had tried to close the door on that inner child. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. She comes out in every way.
3 (1h 41m 50s):
Yeah. She will not be denied. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
3 (1h 42m 32s):
Thank you.
Intro: we are all different fruits in the same blender.
Let Me Run This By You: writing a bunch of stories with the same ending, Murder on Middle Beach
Interview: We talk to Caroline Uy about stage management for opera, the relationship between engineering and creativity, and the University of Michigan
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth and I'm
2 (10s):
Gina
1 (12s):
Together. We survived it.
2 (14s):
I didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? What is good in the hood? What is good in the HUD? Let's see what is happening to me. Wow. I'm okay. I'm hanging in and hanging out. You know what I, I realized this morning, I felt like, you know, I'm, I feel like I'm in trans transition, but like, I feel like we've, we've all been in transition for like five years, like five years or so,
2 (59s):
Honestly. It's like, when will the next part come?
1 (1m 2s):
I so like to say like, oh, I'm in transition. Just sounds kind of like, not really true at this point, but like it is, I do feel like I am in transition, but then the thing is, yeah, like when does the transition, how do you know when you're not in transition anymore? I guess is the thing.
2 (1m 22s):
Yeah. And honestly, I think everybody feels that way right now. I, I was in a meeting yesterday and somebody said, how are you doing? And I said, I mean, I'm fine question mark. Like it's every, and everybody's like, yeah, that's exactly how I feel like there's nothing wrong. Really. It's like, my life isn't even really that effected by the pandemic. And yet it feels completely affected by the pandemic. It's the weirdest thing. I just feel like everybody's holding their breath.
1 (1m 53s):
Yeah. I agree. And also like, right, we are looking, I am looking for milestones and markers that never come in a way like, oh, well there's a vaccine. Well, that didn't really work out to where we thought, oh, but now that you know, like the we're going to start recovering and we're going to be post pandemic, but that didn't really happen. Cause then Delta. So like what are we doing for the rest of our lives? Are we going to be like, oh, we're just kind of, and maybe so like maybe, maybe there's. Yeah. I don't know. I just feel like, because particularly like specifically, I'm like, okay, like I keep thinking, right.
1 (2m 35s):
I, I don't. I keep thinking like, okay, well maybe if I start to bring in income, like, that'll be like a mile marker. But like, I don't really think that is actually that true. I think that that'll just give me a sense of stability maybe, but really, I don't know. There is, there, there seems to be less and less stability, I guess, internally, but I am feeling like I'm sorry. Something just popped up said enjoying Microsoft word. Not at this moment and really not even Microsoft word. Does anyone say, oh, I really enjoy using that Microsoft.
1 (3m 18s):
I had a good Microsoft word session the other day. Brilliant. Anyways. So that's where I'm at. Where like, I'm like, okay, you know, I had this thing happen and we can cut out the specifics. Maybe here's, everything is a scam and everything's a cult, like even things that aren't a scam and a cult are a scam in a cult in my eyes now. And I just feel like, so what happened to me was, okay, so I won this thing I had this month of, of, of instruction, which, which was very helpful in some levels. Right. Okay. Fine. Then I said, well, okay.
1 (3m 59s):
I would like to know if you can help me get a rap. Like that's my, and that's their whole mission. Right. Okay. Fine. So then I talked to the head of the joint, right. And he said, okay, send me your script. Cause which means he didn't read it when it won the contest, which is interesting since he runs the joint. But okay. I think an intern Reddit. Okay. That that's okay. But an intern, I'm not sure an intern should be deciding contest results, but that's okay. I don't know that to be true for a fact, but okay. So then I sent it, I sent him the script and didn't hear hold my calls, which you know, is on draft 12.
1 (4m 39s):
Right. I didn't hear, I didn't hear. So I checked in and said, Hey, I just check it in. You said, you'd think about reps. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm eager to move forward. Also. I would like to know, like, what would your suggestions be for next steps with your company? Like in terms of what classes just curious, you know, never, he said, oh, I sent it to another of my colleagues to read and then we'll both compile our thoughts and get back to you. Well, okay. That didn't happen. So then yesterday though, I get an email from the colleague, lovely human, who I've met online briefly, who said your script is not ready for market.
1 (5m 20s):
It needs all these things. And, and I was like, okay, you know, Jen, you are not, your feedback thing is getting kicked up. So like, let's breathe. Let's not. So I said, okay. And all the things that he said, and here's how to fix them and no mention of like, if you fit, no, no, no message from the head of the place who originally said, he'd help me. Right. So from a colleague who said like, all these things need to be fixed and no mention of like, Hey, you know, if you fix these things, we'll help you find a right. Okay. So, no, like none of that, so that I said, whoa, what?
1 (6m 1s):
And one of them is like, glaring, typos. Now, listen, I I'm, I'm a human. Like everybody, 12 people have read this script and we found typos and found typos. If they're glaring, we're all fucking stupid and blind. Okay. So that was a little hard for me to I'm like, okay. So then I wrote and said, okay, thanks for the feedback. I don't have a lot of financial resources at this moment at my disposal to spend on classes, but what would you recommend next steps with roadmap? So what I was hoping, they would say, this is, this all comes down to Gina. The thing that I'm hoping that was said was not said, which is your script is great.
1 (6m 43s):
We'll help you find a rep. Okay. That is just the truth of what I was hoping. Okay. So when that didn't happen, I was bummed. Then I was hoping, I would say, Hey, what class? I don't have a resources. I was hoping they would say, we'll give you a discount or give you a free blahbity blah. That didn't happen. What he said was you should check out our free seminars. And I think you'd find, I think you'd find a formatting class, very insightful for 300 or $300 or whatever the class costs. I think it's like $200. I don't know what it's called. And then I was like, okay. So then I wrote the head and said, Hey, I just got so-and-so's notes. What are your thoughts? And he said, I think you should take the next step in the program, which is the,
2 (7m 31s):
Okay. So this is reminding me of is like, when you go to, you want to make a smoothie. And so you go to whole foods and you get the most beautiful organic produce and you get these beautiful bursting blue blueberries, and these Ruby red strawberries and these, and then you prepare them and you put them in the blender and then it's just one color. And then you just realize, actually everybody's just in the blender. Like we have this idea that there's, you know, oh, well this guy's a blueberry. And so he's got, I'm just a little lowly, whatever raspberry, but it's like, no, he also needs you for his next thing.
2 (8m 13s):
Like, that's the thing is that this level, everybody just needs to leverage whatever they have with everybody else to get to the next thing, which is fine. But if that's what the majority of people are doing, it's a lot of chasing our tail because
1 (8m 27s):
So, right. So my, my, yes, if it, lot of chasing tails and it's a lot of figuring out right. Who can help when to pay for help when not to pay for help. Right. When to move on and say, okay, thanks. Thanks so much. I'm going to, and also the ultimate thing I came to, it's so crazy for me that it, I really get pissed off that it comes down to spirituality because I'm like, oh my God. But it does. It comes down to do I trust and believe that the universe has more than one door and more than one way to get to the thing I want.
1 (9m 11s):
Because if I think this is the only way I'm going to get wrapped, the only way I'm in deep trouble is the more I, because they're just one thing. And they don't, they're just, like you said, they're just in the blender with everybody else. I have to somehow, and I would like to get to the point where I remember that there are many roads that, you know, lead to Mecca. Like there have to be, because if there is one, I will never I'm in deep trouble because one road, it gets clogged. It gets what if it's under construction? So I was talking to a friend who's pretty spiritual herself. And she was like, oh yeah, this is, you know, like basically saying whatever you believe in God, higher power, you, you got to believe that some force and that some part of the universe is benevolent enough to not just make this one avenue, your only hope for moving forward.
2 (10m 8s):
Absolutely. And, and if you think about it, you know, Hollywood and the whole industry is basically a decades long gold rush and companies like the one you're describing or like the Levi Strauss' like the Levi Strauss company made its money during the gold rush because it's sold the genes that the gold mine it's sold, the equipment that the gold miners needed to, you know, in the pursuit of looking for gold. And it's a completely reasonable career path. It's like, well, I mean, if we could unpack it, we might find that the company was started by a bunch of writers who were struggling to get. And so they just said, well, listen, you know, there's people out there willing to take our class and you know, so let's just make our money off of that.
2 (10m 54s):
And Hey, I'm not knocking out, like maybe we're going to do that someday. I it's. But it I'm just saying it to put it in the perspective of like, even if, even if you're talking to, you know, plan B pictures or Annapurna pictures, there's snow. There's no guarantee that anybody has an elixir or a panacea. And by the way, also like when you get your first writing job, you're not going to be rich.
1 (11m 21s):
Right. Which
2 (11m 23s):
Is, which is a big, real, like, I just realized that the other day, like I keep thinking in the back of my mind, I'm gonna sell this whatever, and then I'm going to be rich. It's like, no, I actually know a lot of people who make their living from writing.
1 (11m 38s):
Yeah, yeah. Right, right. There's also that right. There's also that it's not, I guess for me too, just hearing like nothing is a panacea because there is no panacea, like a panacea is a fallacy. It doesn't exist. It's a fantasy, but it's actually not based. So I, I do better. So what, what, what, yesterday, when I got this email saying all the things wrong with my script and look, my script has problems. I'm not saying it. Doesn't what I'm saying is right. I already paid an expert to help me with it. Right. Like someone I trust in love, who, who I trust implicitly, who said, this is ready to show to the industry.
1 (12m 23s):
Right. So now what I'm hearing is this is not ready. And I'm like, okay, okay. You have your opinion. And I guess that's just what I'm, I I'm realizing that even Levi's Strauss, even though they're really good at one thing, it doesn't mean that they know everything about genes, of all kinds. They know one thing. Right. They know their thing. So I'm just really, I mean, it it's, so entired up with like, for me, like, oh my God, like, who is gonna, who, who is going to champion my, my work and stuff like that. And really Tabitha brown, who I adore who's, you know, got her own she's baldness, which I love, but still she's.
1 (13m 8s):
But anyway, I watch her videos to have the brown America's mom. And she said yesterday, or two days ago, her message was like, listen, I don't know who needs to hear this, but really you may have to do this alone. And I'm not saying that you're going to be lonely or like, that's a bad thing. But I, what she's saying is basically what we know, which is you gotta be your own champion and also think outside the box. And also don't wait for other people to like, give you a pass and all that stuff. So it was a good reminder when I got this email yesterday that like, okay. Okay. All right. I got to open. I'm going to open more channels. I'm gonna, he like in my mind.
1 (13m 50s):
Yeah.
2 (13m 51s):
In your mind. Well, no, not your mind, even it's the whole thing is in your mind, I mean, in my mind to this whole idea that we're just mapping on to whatever situation, all of our, all of the stuff that we bring to every situation, will you pick me? And will you choose me? I mean, listen, like it takes a lot of work to undo that it takes a lot of naming it. It takes a lot of naming it. Again, it takes a lot of like, oh, wait, here, here, it's happening in this different way. It's wearing a different outfit, but this is still my same shit. It's life is if you're, if you're even doing it, it's a process of figuring out what, what your automatic patterns are that you, that you have to change.
2 (14m 39s):
I was coming up against this with, so I wrote my, my five minute play about the mafia meeting on zoom, which is a very cute concept, you know? And it was just a horrible, I just felt it was such a horrible script. Like I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to end it. Like I had the characters that I had the jargon and I had the, the, the concept, which is always the first three things that come to me so easily. And then it's like, okay, but then what happens? And as I was saying this to my husband, as I was saying, the words, I was realizing, the very thing that he then next said to me, which is, yeah, but that makes sense for you because having a plan and having a, an end goal and working towards it is not something you were ever taught to do, you know, say same reason that I will like get 95% of the way through any given task and leave like the last 5%.
2 (15m 42s):
Why I don't know, it doesn't make me feel good. It's not any hard. If I've already worked for three hours on something, why not work for three hours in 10 minutes? Because this is my thing. This is my thing. This is my difficulty. And identifying a goal and then creating a series of steps to getting to it and being able to see how it goes from a to Z. That is just a big, a hole in my cognitive ability that I literally have to now construct on my own. And that's your thing. You have to construct this, not just not waiting for somebody to pick you, but actively picking yourself and say, you know, and saying like, I'm going to have my own roadmap for how this is, and I'm going to have my own.
2 (16m 34s):
It's very hard. That's easier said than done,
1 (16m 35s):
Easier said than done. But I think that it, like you said, it is a process and it is, that is the work. Right. And figuring out like, oh, I got this email, these are my feelings. And I w what I wish I was like, okay, let's deal with like, what you're feeling like, what you wish would have happened versus what happened. Like, and I just, the truth is I wish they would have said, we love your script. There are some, we think there's some really fixable things. And then we have these suggestions for the people we would love to introduce you to, like, that's what I wish would have happened that did not happen. And that has just the truth.
1 (17m 17s):
Like that is the truth. So I had to like, start with the truth, right. Because if I didn't start with the truth of what I wanted to hear, versus what I heard, I would make it all about something out. Yeah. All about it.
2 (17m 30s):
I have a question though. Do, do you know that they do actually know? Yep.
1 (17m 39s):
I know that. Okay. Here's the other thing that I noticed, this is so interesting. And a friend pointed this out, who also knows them. They stay show the, the, the writers they've signed. And they're really proud of that. They're all super young. They're all in their twenties now. I don't know if that's because people don't, I don't know the reason, but it's just interesting data to look at. I'm not saying that they're like being an asshole to old people. I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is all the writers I've noticed, they're, they're helping to sign or intro introducing writers of color, which is fantastic. They all appear to be in their twenties and I'm like, oh, oh, okay.
1 (18m 21s):
That's also good to know. It's just good data. It's like, it's good data. I'm just gathering.
2 (18m 26s):
That's right. That's how you have to treat it all. Like, I'm just on a fact finding mission. And when I get a certain number of facts that leads me to go in a certain direction and yeah. And, and also, I mean, I'm also noticing that the person who's at the top of the food chain is some, some, I'm assuming it's some white guy. Yeah. Which, okay, whatever, like you have to work with the system that's in place, white guys do run most things. So you do have to, you know, like sometimes you just have to cast your lot with, with, you know, random white guy, but you know what I mean? Like what, what if we would have been 20 years, the story is, and that's when you started your own company, that champions writers and what, you know, like it's all, as you always say, it's all about finding the thing that you think is your weakness and making it your strength and making it your super power.
2 (19m 21s):
Because one thing we can be certain of is that you have a lot of really intense and powerful strengths. You have an amazing affinity with people. You are one of the best people, persons I have ever known. You're great at making connections. You're great. At being honest, even when it's hard to receive feedback, you know, you're not lying to yourself about, you know, what the truth of it is you you're psychologically minded, you're hardworking and you're talented. So it's just a matter of finding, like, how is this your little bag of ingredients here or your smoothie, you know, w what, what's the right vessel for you?
1 (20m 2s):
Yeah. I think you're right. Like, it all comes back to the manifesto of pick me, choose me, love me, is going to be the work for the rest of my life to work on feeling like you said, that cognitive development hole in my system, in my psyche and building that up from nothing and I'm doing it, but it takes freaking time. And I, yeah, I just, and I, I, I think it's, that's the truth. And I'm also like, really about like, yeah, I'm just also getting more comfortable with the truth. Like the truth can be really uncomfortable for me.
1 (20m 43s):
Like the truth is my relationship. You know, isn't what I would like with my sister. That is the truth. I can say all kinds of things about my sister. I could say all kinds of things about me. It's the truth. The truth is I'm afraid people won't like me. Like, I'm like, like now that I'm going sort of in the other direction of like, not wanting feedback, what I'm doing is trying to mix in just like say, okay, well, what is the truth of the situation? Whether it's like, because aroused, like we've talked about, and I think we're not alone. Like I will make up all kinds of shit. I will make up all like, like whole tones of stuff I will make up.
1 (21m 25s):
And I think that that is just a distraction from feeling what is the truth?
2 (21m 31s):
Oh, absolutely. It absolutely is. And not only that you'll make up all kinds of things that lead you to a very predictable place. It's like, you know, you'll, you'll go through all these machinations and you'll, you will unknowingly put all of these characters in your story and all these plots in your story that leads you to the exact same ending. It's like, if you're, if you were talking about these things as a series of short stories, you'd say, but every story has the same thing we gotta, we gotta think.
1 (21m 60s):
And like, and I think it's so easy to say like, oh, you know, if you're going to, and I do this, so I I'm trying not to do this anymore, just to see what happens. Like, you know, in my, my husband will say, if you're going to make something up, make something up good, but see, that's too easy. So that doesn't work for me. It's like telling a crack addict just to stop smoking crack. And that I know that doesn't work. Cause I've done it a million times with crack addicts, actual crack addicts doesn't work. So it's like, okay, that doesn't work saying just, just make up something good in your fantasy life. No, no, no. But what I have to say is, okay, what's the actual truth of the core of my being, not the truth about them or what they want or what it appears like, what am I feeling and what is the truth?
1 (22m 44s):
And I, it was really freeing yesterday to say, the truth is, this is what I wish they would have said that that is just the truth. They didn't say it. And I feel really bummed out.
2 (22m 56s):
And by the way, they, they could have said that, like, I mean, without knowing anything about how things work over there, I know that people, people tend towards laziness and, you know, it's just always really easy to say, oh, take our formatting class. It's $300. That's probably their best selling class. I mean, you know, P P when given the option, people will go for the easy way out. And frankly, I hate, I hate to say it, but if it's like, well, you're just some woman, you know, you're just some middle-aged woman, right. Who's who, why, why should I put my energy efforts? Right.
1 (23m 30s):
And so, you know, I think that it is, it is, I used to say, right, like finding a champion for your work. But like you're saying, we have to find the right vessel the right time, the right. A lot of things have to come together to, to happen. And some of those I can be working on, on my own, right. That don't have to do with anybody else and champion myself. And then when someone else comes along and they can maybe fit into the picture then great. But like, it's always comes down to, you know, like it always comes down to what the outlier say, which is, which is be your own champion. Do your own work, stay in your lane invite and be very selective who you've invited.
1 (24m 13s):
Right? Like, that's the other thing, like, that's the other thing it's like, right. I want to take help. One of my character defects is I want to take help from anyone who will give it. Right. Like, that's my people-pleasing right. So like, if anyone wants to help me, I'm like, yes, we're on board. And then I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I had to be discerning about the actual help I get. Because sometimes like, this is a case in point, my father, when I lived in an apartment in Bucktown was like, I wanted a second phone Jack put it right. And he was like, please let me put in the phone, Jack. I knew it was going to be, he doesn't know shit about, he didn't know shit about phone jacks. I could sense it was going to be a trauma.
1 (24m 56s):
He's a very large, he was large. He had to get down on the floor, which makes him angry. It's a whole, but I said, okay, because he wants to help me one he's my dad and all that. But still, it's kind of like that. It's like, someone wants to say, Hey, I want to be your plumber. And they're, they don't know that much about plumbing or there you are then inviting help in that may be very destructive. But for me, it's like, oh, but they, they, they have a flashy thing. And, and, and they, and they, they know all these cool, fancy people and money could be involved for me that I'm like, yes, help me. And then I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. So it's just,
2 (25m 36s):
I wonder if it would even be possible to just like temper one thing with the other. So like what, what if you, for every whatever day that you spent feeling some type of a way about how somebody else feels about you, what if you could intentionally spend one whole day, just being curious with yourself about how you, how you feel about yourself at a minimum, you'd be giving some more balance and at a maximum, you'd actually get some more of the insight that leads you to continually being the better.
1 (26m 11s):
And I think I'd get some work done. Like I made a lot of time thinking about other people, how other people are gonna could, or won't, or might help me. It takes a lot of work. Versus if I'm focused on, on what I want to be like, what am I feeling? What's the truth about me? What do I want to do? What I might actually get some fucking writing done, or at least have some meaningful conversations with myself versus predicting what Joe Schmo is going to. It's quite something
2 (26m 53s):
I might've mentioned this on the podcast once before, but there's a documentary called murder at middle beach murder on middle beach. And it's an on HBO. And if you tell me that you don't have HBO, I'm going to kill, I do I have your password. Thank you. So it is a documentary made by the son of a woman who was murdered actually here in Connecticut. Not, not far from where I live and his mom was murdered when he was like, I wanna like maybe 19 or 20 and three years after she died, he started making this documentary.
2 (27m 33s):
So she died in 2010. So he's been making it since 2013 and it's a four-part series. It's a four parter. And it it's really well made. And it goes through, you know, basically who, who the list of suspects is. And they're all pretty much in the family. The it's the sister and the, and, and then the divorced dad, the, the strange dad without coming out and saying it, he's pretty much saying like, yeah, my, I think it was my dad. I think my dad did it.
2 (28m 13s):
And one of the things that people in this story are always telling him is you're never going to get an answer to what happened to your mom. So you, you just have to let it go. And the tricky thing is I know from having a lot of experience with liars, that that is something that a liar says, because they want to preclude you from getting to the truth of what they've done. But PS, it's also something that is sometimes true. Sometimes you do have to let go of, which is extremely hard for me to do. And whenever I hear somebody saying it to me or to somebody else, I'm always like, yeah.
2 (28m 54s):
Okay. But, but how, how, what is that, what does that mean? And do you ever feel like, yes, I've let that go. Because for me, I could feel like I let something go. And then if I think long enough about it later on it, it just, it comes right back again. And so I thought maybe I'm not that good with forgiveness. And it was just curious that I was just curious about what your thoughts are about letting go and forgiveness and how you do think.
1 (29m 22s):
And every single human has to figure out for themselves when the letting go point is, and it could be, it takes a budget 10 years and it could be that you never let something go. And I find that, that there is okay. I want, you know, I was dating the same dude for years. That didn't love me, my friend, John, who I love in New York, the crazy guy with the nine 11 story that I've told where he's, he's just like super, just a crazy, weird new Yorker. But anyway, he said, you know, and after 15 years of me telling him about this love interest, that was unrequited, he said, you know, and everyone saying, you gotta stop.
1 (30m 6s):
You gotta stop. You, you deserve better. Blah-blah-blah. He said, you know what, Jen, you're going to stop. When you're going to stop, you're going to stop pursuing this. You're going to let go of this. When it is, you're either in enough pain or you've had enough healing and you'll let go. So I think for me, right, it takes what it takes to let go of something. The other thing is we would never have documentaries of people let go. We would never have crime. If people let go, we would also never have convictions overturned. If people let go, we wouldn't. So I think it's very, if someone feels really called to do something, I know that it's could be dangerous even to a point.
1 (30m 53s):
Some of these people research these documentaries stuff and they, they, they put themselves in harm's way. We would never have good journalism in Afghanistan if people let go. So like, I have a really hard time when people are like, you need to let go of something because here's the thing, everyone let go, let's go. When they let go. And I, if the tr if I, if the quest is so important that you need to hold on, then you're going to hold. Then you're going to hold on until you need to let go. And I, I, you know, there's something in, in 12 step land, which is let go and let God, or hang on and be dragged.
1 (31m 33s):
Here's the thing I have learned so much by being dragged. I don't, it's not pleasant, but like, it took me 15 years to let go of that dude. It took me another, like, and yeah, I learned a lot about myself. So I say, because I'm also a true crime nut go after the story, but know that it comes at a cost and it just, it does. But everything comes at a freaking cost. I don't know.
2 (32m 3s):
Yeah. And what you're making me realize is it happens when it happens, because it's, there's a need there. There's like, it's like an itch you have to scratch. And once it feels scratched in whatever way, cause I've also, by the way, had the experience of, you know, letting enough time pass or getting enough information, then I go, oh, okay. It was that, which is not to say that I never have any feelings about it anymore, but it doesn't consume me when I really have a burning question about something. It really consumes me. And like my, the thing about my sister's death being a great example, I was so like, almost crazy with wanting to know what happened to her.
2 (32m 44s):
And then when I found out, it's not like I have no curiosity about it, but I feel it's been put to bed. Now. I know what happened to her. She'd died from alcohol brightening. Like, I may still have questions about, you know, why her life went a certain way or why don't have relationship with her kids. But the, the thing that I was focused on fixated on for, for three months, but now that's been answered and now I can actually look up.
1 (33m 9s):
Yes. And, and because we're like thinking, and you you're like a really sort of inquisitive human being, we can also say like, oh, alcoholism in itself is a form of murder. Like it is like the disease is a murderer. The way we all treated her was sort of like, is it raining there?
2 (33m 32s):
Yes. It's beautiful.
1 (33m 36s):
Anyway, that's gorgeous. We don't, we don't have any of that shit here. So, so anyway, I guess what I'm saying too, is like the thing that we're, so look your instinct about what happened to your, to your sister on some levels was right. It just took a different form in a different way. And it's just, it's just, but yeah, I don't, I don't, I think, you know, you know, my, my mom a month after my dad died telling me I had to get over it and let it go, I was like, oh, okay.
2 (34m 9s):
Got it all. But also, I I'm so curious, these people who say that, do they find it so easy to let things go? I mean, it kind of feels like for generations and generations, that was the one. And only answer like something happened last and move on. And like, did anybody really feel like they must, there must be some people who feel they can genuinely just let something go the moment they put their mind to it. I've never had that experience myself. I mean, there's many people in my family who they, the way they tell me to let things go, I have to assume that they've led a lot of shit
1 (34m 49s):
For them, either that, or they're, you know, for me, it's either that, or you're in deep denial and you're drinking yourself to death. So there you go. But yeah, you know what I mean? You've let it go. But you're also consuming mass quantities of a poison. So there you go.
2 (35m 4s):
You think you've let it go because you've just done a workaround where you're, you know, numbing yourself in another way. Yeah. But in general, like, are you a very forgiving person? I feel like you are,
1 (35m 16s):
I am forgiving. I also can be right. I can also use, I can, I can forgive and then just still have resentments, but yeah, I'm a pretty forgiving person, a Libra. We tend to be forgiving. And also, I feel like, you know, of course sometimes I feel like I'm probably too forgiving and people are like, you should be really mad about this thing that happened to you. Other people take it on and I'm like, oh, they're probably right. And then years later I'm like, yes, they're right. So I'm, I happen to be really forgiving, but I think it can also be really a hindrance. Cause then I don't let my anger out, you know, so, right, right.
1 (36m 0s):
Yeah. You have to be careful of that. That you're not just swallowing something to, in the name of forgiveness really, really genuinely love human beings. And I definitely think we're stronger together, but the flip side of that is I really am really then scared when I don't love a human being or when I can't forgive a human being. And that's not, that's not awesome either, but yeah, no, that's not a good feeling. I have to say. Since you brought up being a Libra, shout out to Terry, my friend who listens to this podcast, I was talking to her yesterday. She opens a conversation by saying, by the way, I am a Scorpio woman.
1 (36m 42s):
Like it wasn't me. It was FAS. She said, I mean, she was being very good natured about it, but I think she was no, no. And I, yeah, actually what she said was how do you, how does a person just always know that somebody? And I said, no, it was like somebody she lived with and somebody she was close to. But it was funny. I didn't know that about her and I would not have guessed that that was her thing. Because to me, when I think of Scorpios, I think of people who are really like, like fiery, fiery, I mean, she's fiery, like she's, she's got a lot of energy and whatever, but I don't think of her as sometimes I think of Scorpios as being kind of out of control emotionally.
1 (37m 25s):
And I don't, she's not like that. So she's showing me a softer side. Yes. Thank you, Terry and Terry. Yes. And, and believe me, Libras are like totally people pleasing weirdos. So yeah, we got problem. Hard pal got problems.
0 (37m 46s):
Well,
3 (37m 51s):
Today on the podcast we're talking with Caroline, Caroline was a dramaturg and a stage manager and Caroline works in opera a lot. And that's something that we didn't know anything about really, and learned a lot about, had a very fun and insightful conversation. So please enjoy our talk with Caroline Illy.
4 (38m 26s):
It was reading coordinator slash dramateur, cause it was some kind of stage management work. And also some like I have creative thoughts about the play.
2 (38m 38s):
Yeah. Oh, so
4 (38m 42s):
Invites so much in his rooms.
2 (38m 44s):
Yeah. So is that all along the lines of what you want, what you're planning to do professionally?
4 (38m 53s):
Yes. At least some of the things that I'm doing. So I split my time between stage managing opera and doing like stage managing and dramaturgy or script coordinating like new plays that are being developed. And those are kind of the two extremes that I'm currently swinging through. Wow.
2 (39m 19s):
Wow. So you, you survived theater school?
4 (39m 23s):
I did. I went to the university of Michigan Ann Arbor. Yeah.
2 (39m 31s):
And what did you, what did you study? Did you study stage, but what did you
4 (39m 35s):
Officially the major there is called design and production. I always term call it theatrical design and production because that way people know what the scope is. So I studied that and then I concentrated in stage management. So there's nothing on my degree that officially says stage management on it, but kind of soft concentration in the department is stage management. And then they have a few others as well.
2 (40m 5s):
The way, the way you're describing it sounds so much more creative than I think I typically associate stage management as being like, for example, stage managing and opera, which by the way, sounds like a nightmare. I don't know why. It sounds very overwhelming just to hear it made my heart go pitter-patter but it seems to me like, you're, I don't know if it's unique to you or that's where the field is going, but it seems like you're more involved in like creating the thing than I would have imagined for stage management
4 (40m 44s):
A little bit. I think, I think it's a little weird in opera, especially because the role of stage management there overlaps so much with the role of assistant director, I think in a way that's more unique to the field, at least as part. So a lot of assistant directors do a lot of stage management work and then it kind of depends on what different opera houses and what level in you're at. But it's also interesting because a lot of operas are just restaging. Like it's the same production, but we've just gotten, you know, new people in it.
4 (41m 26s):
But it's the same thing we've done since 1999 or whatever,
2 (41m 31s):
Truly, truly the same thing sometimes. Yeah.
4 (41m 34s):
So the designs like at the metropolitan opera house, which I got to tour once, like sometimes they'll do new stagings with new blocking and new designs and things like that. But some of their rep is like the same show that was done 2, 5, 10 years ago. Like they have that set for Lebow, em, and they're just going to keep putting it on until it, even after it falls apart. They'll make it look the same again. They'll just rebuild it
1 (42m 6s):
Without, without thank gosh, the asparagus has gone, but that, first of all, I have so many questions about how you got into stage managing opera. How, why opera lends itself to people doing more Ady work and stage management work and why opera never changes what's going on.
4 (42m 26s):
It's a lot of things to answer your last one. I think it's partially because I think, I don't know my personal opinion is that a lot of the patronage for opera tends to be older people. And a lot of opera rep that gets done at different houses is like the same, mostly the same 10 most popular operas. So you'll have a, you know, you'll have
1 (42m 53s):
Butterfly Madenbaum Zack butterfly
4 (42m 55s):
And not a butterfly, which is maybe on people's top 10 lists. But like they're always, there's always a poem. There's always like a Rigoletto. There's always. So I think, I mean, part of it might also just be cost saving. I mean, it's, it's a lot cheaper to not have to do a full new restaging of a production. And I think also people just like it, people are like, this is, I like this concept that these people did. And so we're just going to keep doing it cause they don't, but one will always sell. And what's the point of restaging it, if it will sell with the same staging that you did five years ago.
1 (43m 36s):
Yeah. Here's my, my impression of people like having known people who love opera, those people love opera. I mean, there is no, I mean, and they, and I have never seen, and now that you're, that we're talking about it, it's like people don't like change. Right? You could just take this as people do not like change. And I feel like people who love opera have a very specific view of what opera should be. I know Jack squat about opera. Other than when I go, is it I'm like the newbie. That's like, oh wow, this is really long. And I have no idea. That's how I go. But my friends who love it, I mean, they're like season ticket holders for like generations in their family own the tickets.
1 (44m 22s):
And I'm like, whoa, it's sort of like, yeah, I'm sitting
4 (44m 26s):
Over here judging
1 (44m 27s):
People who want to see the same opera as a person who is on my fourth
2 (44m 32s):
Complete viewing of the Sopranos. It, I shouldn't be surprised like people like what they like, sorry, Carolyn, I interrupted.
4 (44m 40s):
No, you're fine. But yeah, I think it's definitely, it's a lot of it is that where, you know, and I think for the, like the met does shows like in rap and so it's also just easier. So there's always a mix of like, maybe there's a new staging, there's a couple of new stagings. And then there's a mix of like old stuff mixed in because they have all the sets built in and in a way it's really nice because it's not like some shows where you build the set and then you finish the show, you close the show and then you tear it down or you rebuild it or you throw it away. They're like, Nope, we'll keep the set forever until it doesn't work anymore.
4 (45m 23s):
Right.
1 (45m 24s):
Yeah. It's like old school style. It's like what I imagined, you know, way back in the day. But what about if you, like, you want to change the app? Do you have any voice in like, what if someone, an upstart comes along and is like, Hey, I like lab. And, but what if we made it, is there any room for that in
4 (45m 43s):
There? Is I know that there was a very interesting production of Labo actually. I think like in Paris a couple of years ago where it was set in space and like a very extremely non-traditional lob, I was like a set on the moon or something like that. And like, people either loved it or they hated it, but it was all the same music. It was all the same, you know, nothing really about the music had changed. And I think with a lot of opera buffs, like that's the thing that matters the most or like the concept is the concept is the concept, but it's the music. And I think maybe that's also part of it too. It's like, it's like, eh, as long as it looks nice and it's enjoyable and interesting to look at people are there to hear the music, which kind of makes sense.
4 (46m 31s):
It's such an, it's such a music driven field. Yeah.
2 (46m 35s):
Yeah, definitely. So I'm interested in also in this question, how did you get into working in opera?
4 (46m 43s):
I fell into opera really randomly, so I never seen opera before I went to school and my parents are not opera people. No one in my family is classical music. You know, background. I saw my first opera when I came to school, I was like, cool, interesting. I might've fallen asleep at part of it through part of it. Honestly, my sophomore year when I was doing my first assistant stage management work, I was put on the opera. I was like, cool, interesting. I'm willing to do it. And at my school at the university of Michigan, that's not always the case with the theater department and the stage management department.
4 (47m 26s):
And we can talk about that, but oh wait, wait, wait, can say more just now. Absolutely. So here at the university of Michigan, there is the theater school and the musical theater school, which are kind of the T in school of music, theater and drama or school music, theater dance. And then the operas are headed though by the school of music with production support, from the university productions, which is kind of separate from the school in some ways, but obviously like teaches the students in that school and things like that. So part of it is part of it's a skill level because in opera you have to be able to read music and not every stage manager can cause some of them just want to do plays or some of them just want to go into events management and you don't need to be able to follow a score in order to do those things.
4 (48m 19s):
And then the other thing is the culture between the music school and the theater school here. And I think at a lot of places, it's just very different. The music school is really formal. You know, here at the theater school, you know, you can call your professors nicknames. If you want to. As long as they're respectful, you're respectful at the musical. You call them professor last name or doctor whatever, or my strong you don't call you. Don't just casually be like, Hey Kirk, like, they're like, please don't call me anything else. But they're usually, it's like, hi, Dr. Siebert, like, or hi professor, hi my throat. So it's the end.
4 (49m 0s):
The cultures are just a little different. And the opera is definitely hard. It's a hard slot to do in school as a student. And so sometimes not a lot of stage managers or people either can or don't want to can't or don't want to work in opera, but I could read music. And my sophomore year, my stage management advisor who assigns the students to the shows that they're working on was like, cool, you'll do the opera. And I was like, cool, I've never done an opera. It'll be interesting. Kind of nervous. We'll figure it out. I did it. It was great.
4 (49m 41s):
I didn't really think about it then. And then my, What was it? My senior year, I was going to be doing my full, be the head stage manager on a show. And I had told my professor same professor, listen, I'm willing to do any of the shows, but I'm not ready for the big musical at the end of the year. I think I just, I can't do the musical in the biggest venue on campus, but I am willing to do the opera. And again, I was one of the only people who was like willing and interested to do the opera and she was cool. The opera is going to be candied. It'll be in that big venue.
4 (50m 21s):
But do you think you want to be, do you think you want to do full stage management or could hire a guest in and you could be a first assistant? And I was like, I think I can do it. I knew nothing about Candide at the time, but Candide is basically a musical. And so I basically did do a full musical in that big venue. And then I did the next opera in the next semester as well. And that one was a completely different kind of piece. It was a Baroque piece. There's a harpsichord, it's a whole deal. And I realized that
1 (50m 56s):
Caroline, do you, I have to interrupt you. Do you love do you, how do you know how to read music? That's like, not something I know how to do.
4 (51m 3s):
I learned how to read. I can read very rudimentary means like I'm not good at reading music. I wouldn't say I'm a musician by any sense. But I learned to read the basics of music and piano class, which my parents put me in when I was a child. So I can read notes and I can follow music. And I understand how music is organized, but I'm not like a singer or an instrumentalist who is like, I know this is a G. And I'm like, I have to kind of count a little bit sometimes, but, and I've learned a lot of reading music through doing opera. Cause you, I just picked up on how the musicians in the room referred to the music.
4 (51m 48s):
And I picked up on like, oh, that's a fermata. Got it.
2 (51m 53s):
I'm just picturing like, so we've, we've had a few stories on this show about, you know, people having to do parts where they didn't, you know, they had to go in last minute and didn't know the lines and stage manager was having to feed lines. You, you don't, you do, you can't do that in the opera. I liked her singing. And so
4 (52m 12s):
No. Well, the way opera is done here is the singers come knowing their part and anyone who comes in in the, I think the world of opera, if anyone wants to come in last minute, they don't call people who don't know the parts. Everyone it's part of the opera singers training is my understanding is a lot of them will study and have fully memorized. I could pick up from anywhere in the score, five to seven roles in their voice type basically. And they bop around the country, usually doing that. Yeah. Roles, sometimes learning new roles or as they get older and their voice matures, maybe changing, you know, suddenly you can't sing Cinderella anymore.
4 (52m 59s):
Cause you're, you don't look like a young Cinderella. So you learn, you know, a different role. But literally we had done a production. I didn't really work on it, but there, we had done a production of coasting on Tuesday and a production in Texas lost one of the members of their company to like illness or something like that. Not loss loss. He, I think he's right, but he couldn't do perform. And they literally flew the person who had sang the role in our production to Texas. Cause he knew the music and then they just teach him the staging really fast. Wow.
1 (53m 37s):
It's a small. So what you're saying is a small world operates a small.
4 (53m 41s):
Yeah. It's also weird though. Cause it's extremely, sometimes international. And so it's, it's it fluctuates between being small and obviously regional country stuff, you know, also plays into that. But yeah, like it, it really can be where it's like, man, we need someone to sing this role and we don't have them or we lost them or they can't make it anymore. And you just find someone else who can sing it the way you want it to be song and you fly them in and you teach them to do it. And then they go on and they do it. Like it's,
1 (54m 18s):
It's a system that works. I mean that's like a pretty great system. Yeah. And you know what? It must help too that the sets sometimes stay the same and everything is similar. So that way, if you're redoing, it might not look that different unless you're doing the one in Paris on the moon. Then the one you did in Texas could look like now, is it your job to, to teach that person when they come, the staging
4 (54m 42s):
Would either be someone in my position as a stage manager or an assistant director, depending on I think how the company is run and who exactly, and how those roles get divided. But yeah, it's usually something like that where it's almost like having like an understudy or a swing churn away.
1 (55m 5s):
Would you say that you work? You're the kind of person that does really well under pressure because that's what I'm getting from you. I could be totally making that up, but like, are you able to, and, and I worked with you a little in the reading Zach's reading and you, you seem to me like someone who's able to really pivot and do what is needed in a moment's notice. Is that, is that, would you you're laughing at me or you like this?
4 (55m 30s):
No, I think you're okay. I think, I mean, I think that's for me is the fun in opera is it's usually pretty fast and it's usually high pressure and I, and I, and I think that's the fun of it. I mean, it's also incredibly stressful and like not always that fun, but I think for me, I really enjoy the challenge of, oh gosh, there are like 60 to 80 people who have to get on stage and how do you manage getting them all on the stage and making sure you don't hit them with a piece of scenery, you know?
4 (56m 12s):
And it's kind of magical when it all comes together when you get through it. And you're like, wow, that worked,
1 (56m 18s):
It worked. We got
4 (56m 20s):
Them all on there and we got them all off and then we'll do it again tomorrow.
1 (56m 24s):
So are you, did you always want to do something in theater? What drew you to theater school?
4 (56m 34s):
I did not have the realization that theater school was a thing until my senior year in high school. I really have a distinct memory of realizing, oh crap, you can do this forever. You know what? I had received an email about design and production majors that were cropping up at a couple of colleges. So that was kind of the realization for me. And at the time I didn't do stage management, I was kind of interested in lighting. I'd done a little bit of lighting for my high school. And I was like, oh, people do this for their living. They studied lighting design, or you can study this in school and you can go do it professionally.
4 (57m 18s):
And this can be your job simultaneously to that. I was having my first stage management experience in high school. And so I was like, oh, interesting. So I applied to a couple schools that had theater design and product like theater design or production majors. But a lot of the other ones I applied as an engineer cause I was kind of what I thought I was going to be doing. And then what drew me eventually to Michigan specifically is Michigan had a dual degree acceptance program where you could apply to two schools simultaneously as an undergrad. And it's essentially like having a double major, but it's applying to those two schools from your first year and being a dual degree student, you know, right off the bat.
4 (58m 7s):
So that's what I did for Michigan is I applied as an engineer and I applied as a theater design and production person and I got into both.
1 (58m 16s):
So what you're saying is you're, you're a real slouch that you're really an underachiever. Like I'm so sorry for you. Okay. Because U of M is really in great schools and that's fantastic. So, so you're, you did that from day one. I mean, like I couldn't do drinking and acting at the same time. So like you were able to do you, you started day one as a double two majors. Okay. And did you, how did you find U of M how did you find the, the, like the theater kids versus the engineering kids? Cause we talk a lot about theater school culture, you know, like rolling around on the floor and doing was, I imagined that that was kind of different than the engineering.
4 (59m 1s):
And I will say I did eventually I changed my engineering major to a, to a different major cause I was like, I can't be here. I think for me, the difficulty was a lot of engineers that I knew at least knew that they wanted to be engineers and they had known their whole lives, that this was like, they took, you know, they're the type of people who like take apart their car with their parents or they build a computer or they build a small docket and that's like, what they do, you know, throughout their adolescents to teenager dumb. And I was, I kind of applied to engineering just on like, on a laugh. I was like, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do.
4 (59m 43s):
We'll figure it out. A lot of people had said to me like, oh, maybe you'd be good at engineering. And I was like, I don't know what is,
1 (59m 49s):
Yeah. I still don't know it's building things is what you're telling me something, if you're good at math and creative.
4 (59m 56s):
Yeah. It's a whole mix of things. Okay. That's okay. But I will say I really enjoy having two majors. I loved being in theater school and I love the friends that I had in theater school. And I enjoyed myself a lot and it was fun to be, you know, sometimes it's silly and it's art and it's a good time. And it's fun to walk through your school building and realize people are just having a staff fight, like are just practicing for stage combat in the lobby, or they're doing a clown show down there and you're like what's happening. But it was also good to be in a bigger school community in a way because the theater school at Michigan and I think at a lot of places tends to be really small and insular and chiller, whereas engineering schools or humanity programs, you know, are huge.
4 (1h 0m 52s):
That's where you get the big lecture halls and, you know, a million discussion groups and 300 people in a classroom versus in theater school it's like 10 or five or one, like, so it was good to be able to split between those two and to be able to go someplace when I was done doing my theater work or I was done with rehearsal and go do something else with other people who weren't still from that world to, to kind of split that work-life balance in a way, just with a different work-life balance.
1 (1h 1m 31s):
Can you tell us about the, the culture at the U of M theater school? Like what was that like? Like, I don't know if you've listened to the podcast, but we've got like, you know, we went to DePaul theater school and we talk about like the weirdnesses there, but I know nothing about U of M what is your take on it?
4 (1h 1m 49s):
I can speak about the, the program I was in and then kind of what I heard from my friends who were in like the acting programs, things like that. What I really liked about my, the design and production program was that it was very well-rounded. And so what I liked about not specifically majoring in stage management was that I, you know, got a little bit of lighting design experience and in costume design experience, not like at least in the classroom. And I think that that was really useful. And for the most part, the, the students in that group are very like close knit and they collaborate and they share studio space and people are willing to help each other, you know, pass on that institutional knowledge or try to figure out like, you know, how to navigate the school a little bit.
4 (1h 2m 51s):
And at the very least there, and maybe I floated above it, there wasn't any real crazy, like, I don't know, competitiveness or competition, at least between slots, maybe that's because I was taking the opera slot and everyone was like, you can have that. And then from the, the theater school side in more generally, I think it, it's making a lot of strides to be progressive and making a lot of strides to do, you know, to respond to the culture, you know, that we are living in that being said, it also messed up a lot of times trying to do those things.
4 (1h 3m 34s):
And it tried to do, you know, helpful things that were actually in a way weirdly hurtful. So there was like a one instance was there was a guest director who was on campus, who was giving a speech in this director is Asian-American. And so they had sent out a general email to the theater school students of like, Hey, this director is on campus, really cool. Giving a talk at, you know, on Friday at 12, you know, come by, there'll be pizza, whatever. And then the head of the department sent a separate email, but basically the same information just to the Asian American students in the program, which was understandable maybe, but was also super weird that like I asked the two emails and I was like, why maybe they sent it twice.
4 (1h 4m 27s):
Maybe they just messed up and I Snoop. And so I, I just went to go look at the census list or who was sending it. And I was like, every single person on this second email is Asian American. And that's a little weird to receive this email.
1 (1h 4m 45s):
Well, here's the thing I think it's really sort of, that's like a metaphor for, for America trying to get better and still doing weird shit. I feel like there is an awakening that is happening gradually and slowly. And I also feel like that comes with somehow what we're getting. I notice it a lot in, you know, in the Latino community where it's like, we're doing things that seem good, like a great idea. And also our, like you said, like weirdly oddly hurtful. So it's hard to be, it's hard to know what's helpful. And what is
4 (1h 5m 25s):
Yeah. And I think, I mean, it's a it's I will say it's, I think it's a difficult needle to thread of, you know, especially when you're telling, you're trying to tell diverse stories who is allowed to tell those stories and when is, when is it okay. Because at least from my opinion, I think it's also definitely weird to be like only Asian-American people can tell Asian American stories that feels
2 (1h 5m 53s):
You think, you think that's weird. You don't agree with that. I
4 (1h 5m 59s):
Worry about it a little bit, because I think it, it can weirdly pigeon hole people. Cause it's, it turns into what is an Asian-American story and what makes that story Asian or Asian-American right. Like I can, you know, I have an immigrant background, like my parents are immigrants, but is that the, that's not the only story that I ever want to work on or tell, like I'm interested in a lot of others. I find other things that touch me or move me from other backgrounds. Right. And, and I think glue because I also think it can be done well and it can be done respectfully.
4 (1h 6m 40s):
And I think it's good for people to try to learn and immerse themselves in other people's cultures. Like one example that I always think of is, I don't know how familiar you are with the show end flings, which is by Celine song. It's a, it's a Korean, Korean American Korean Canadian show. The director of that for the last couple of productions, same director is white. And I spoke to her about it once I was like, do you, do you get what, you know, do people get angry when they realize, you know, you're a white person directing this Korean Korean-American show.
4 (1h 7m 21s):
And she was like, not a lot, but the thing is, is that the, the agreement between her and the player has always been, if you wanted someone else to do it, like I w I will step off of it. Right. But she also did a lot of the work. She went to Korea, she visited the island that, that work is based on, you know, she collaborates really closely with the playwright who was Korean, you know, and they have these conversations. And I think the way she does it is really respectful. Right. And the playwright, most importantly, wants to work with her. Right. Specifically, there are things about her artistic vision and how she approaches story that are important to the playwright and how that story is told. So I think it's like, I don't want to say, like, you can never do the story because you're not Asian because yeah.
2 (1h 8m 7s):
I think I get what you're saying. Cause you're also kind of saying it that's good. That could be one of those things that could ultimately be hurtful if it gets so insular in some kind of a way that it actually, instead of creating a space for somebody to tell their story, it, it, it limits or hinders the ability of certain people to tell their own stories. That makes a lot of sense to me when you were talking about opera earlier, I was going to ask is the world of opera going through the same growing pains as the world of theater in terms of representation and, and trying to have more equity.
4 (1h 8m 46s):
I, yeah, it's definitely tricky with the opera world because the opera world is steeped in, you know, a lot of those top 10, most famous operas are written by white men. And to be fair, I like, you know, the music is beautiful and I understand that it's a tradition and everyone likes to go see Bo when I'm at Christmas and you know, that's like a thing. And, but also what do you do, you know, in trying to diversify the Canon and in trying to diversify the people who are on stage and, you know, and it's all about access and, you know, classical music training and, and things like that.
4 (1h 9m 33s):
I think the opera world is going through that reckoning a little bit. I think it's me in the least, in my perception, it feels like it's going through it. You know, maybe half a step behind where the theater world is going through it. Maybe just because again, a lot of the patronage of opera, at least in America is, you know, older and wider already. Right. It's very different. I feel like worldwide because America doesn't have as much a tradition in opera as like Europe does, you know, Europe, opera is the shit at Euro in Europe.
4 (1h 10m 13s):
Like people love it. And, and that's the main, that's one of the, you know, cause they have, you know, the composers are all from there and, and things like that. And so people are much, I find much more steeped in the culture there than they are here, where we have musicals and plays and you know, the movie to the musical to movie to musical pipeline is just like constantly turning. So yeah. It's, it's definitely interesting though.
2 (1h 10m 45s):
Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking, okay, so how, how would an institution make opera something that's more accessible to a wider variety of people? I mean, these things have to usually start in public education. It seems hard. It seems like a, a bridge too far, maybe that that would become part of American public education. Although, you know, I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened.
4 (1h 11m 16s):
I mean, I think what the question of access, I was speaking to someone here at school about it and you know, they're trying to look into, you know, doing operas by black composers or by composers of color, you know, but they also have their own curriculum and repertoire that they're trying to, to, to have their students move through. You know, you have to do, you know, they always do a French opera and then a German opera and an English language opera and an Italian opera. And so, you know, wanting students to get the experience of singing in those languages and learning that rep a little bit, but also trying to find work that is diverse.
4 (1h 11m 59s):
And then also trying to make sure that you have the students to actually support that work, which is a whole other thing, which, you know, they were talking about doing an opera by, I think, I think Afro German or African-American composer. And, but then I, you know, some, I mentioned this man, I was like, does the office school have enough people of color in the student populace to actually do that work because it's all well and good to do the work to, to play the music of those composers. But for an opera, you also need people who, you know, you need to do racially appropriate casting for some of the shows.
4 (1h 12m 42s):
And he's just like, I don't think they do. And I'm waiting for them to realize that, oh, you know, it's, it's,
1 (1h 12m 51s):
I mean, this is a systemic problem. Like this is a problem. Like they, I believe that the play, when we were at DePaul, if mark, if I'm there was done with white people, it was, or there was a white person. I mean, so there that's and look, this was 1990, whatever, but still that is a problem. It's a systemic. So the more we talk to, you know, people like yourself and other people like that that are younger, it's still a problem. It's like, it's still a problem. It's 19, you know, that was 1998. We're in 2021 and it's, we still got a problem. So, I mean, I think that, that it's,
2 (1h 13m 31s):
I will say, you know, that play Phyllis really wanted to do that play. She couldn't wait anymore, you know, to have more students of color, but then she did it again recently and she was able to have the cast that status.
1 (1h 13m 48s):
I want it to do you, you are correct. So there is progress being made. And also there is something to be said about a leader, you know, a leader wanting to do the couldn't wait any longer to do the place she wanted to do, you know, in an institution that maybe couldn't support it. You're right. You're right. Yeah. There's change, change looks different. Right? Small, big it's sideways, all kinds of stuff. So
2 (1h 14m 11s):
Boss and
4 (1h 14m 12s):
I are very particularly interested in this notion of the difficulty of the sometimes emotionally difficult aspect of going to college. But in our case, going to a conservatory, I don't know if it's the same, if you had an experience of it being emotionally a difficult thing to survive theater school, but can you tell us anything about how, how the process of being in a pro in, I guess, two programs that you, that you were in, how, how it was maybe difficult for you in a personal way? Hm.
4 (1h 14m 52s):
I mean, I think being, especially for me being in two programs, it was really difficult because the, the hours and the demands, I think of doing theater school are really challenging to do while also trying to like, get an education and go to class and write essays and do all of that thing. Or like do all of that. Like for me, because I feel like going to class is all well and good for theater school, but also there's, you don't learn in the classroom the way that you learn when you're actually doing the show.
4 (1h 15m 35s):
Right? And so you have to do a show that has to be part of the curriculum for people who are studying performance or are studying design. You know, you can sit in a light lab all day, but it's not going to be the same experience as lighting a stage and lighting a production and people as they are performing. And so then what ends up happening is you just end up trying to do you do both it's in, you're not trying to do it. You are doing it. And it's hard, right? Because like, when I started doing internships for theater, a lot of places would say, oh, it's fast paced.
4 (1h 16m 15s):
It's a lot of work. But in my insurance, I was like, this is so much easier because this is the only thing I'm doing when I'm doing an internship versus, oh, I'm also going to school 40 hours a week, and then trying to do a show for 40 hours a week. And I think at some point you just run out of hours in the day to do both of those things. Right? So like coming back to do the opera this year is extremely different than doing it as a student, if only because I'm not a student anymore. And you know, there are other weird things that happen with that. Right. Of just like being on campus when you're not a student anymore.
4 (1h 16m 57s):
But the opera was basically like a 40 hour a week job. Right. And I did that while taking 20 credits at the same time did sweat. You
1 (1h 17m 10s):
Said you switched out of the engineering to what, what is it?
4 (1h 17m 13s):
And I switched from engineering to studying cognitive science through the humanities school. Yeah.
1 (1h 17m 22s):
I don't even know what cognitive is that psychology.
4 (1h 17m 25s):
The few things I studied specifically, I focused on a track called the language and the mind. And so I studied a bit of linguistics and psychology and on some computation and things like that. And it was kind of about how language is represented in the brain and how it functions there. Wow.
1 (1h 17m 48s):
What drew you to that?
4 (1h 17m 51s):
I kinda, I, so I was in engineering school and I was doing, I was interested maybe in doing computer science, but I didn't want to take physics because I didn't think it was important for computer science. I realized in the midst of doing computer science, that I didn't care about like building artificial intelligence, but I wanted to like talk about the implications of artificial intelligence and like, that's all I wanted, like, or like, you know, artificial intelligence is example, but I was like, oh, I don't really care about some of the actual making of this here. I just want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it and figure out how it works, but I don't actually want to put like fingers to keyboard and type the code that actually has to make it run.
4 (1h 18m 41s):
Like someone else can do that and they can bang their head against the wall trying to do that. And I'll just, you know, talk about the theory of it.
2 (1h 18m 50s):
Yeah. From a lot of the things that you've said today, I get the impression that your brain is so capable of, you know, managing problems intellectually, but you have a, more of a desire to, to process things relationally. And maybe, maybe that's why you have this pole between, you know, like sort of heady, academic, theoretical study. And then, I mean, it doesn't get really any more visceral than opera. It doesn't, it's like it's all in emotion wise. I mean, not that I see a lot of it, but that's how it seems to me.
2 (1h 19m 31s):
Do you F do you identify with that tension between the, the relational and the theoretical?
4 (1h 19m 38s):
I never thought about it before, but I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. And I think, I think maybe part of why I was never interested in the, you know, fingers to keyboard work of, of creating code or anything was because I was already exercising, you know, some of the making parts of my brain in like making an opera happen and in managing that and then, and problem solving that. And so I, I didn't, I was not in like the trial and error of computer programming or engineering because I was kind of exercising those parts of my brain a little bit elsewhere.
4 (1h 20m 21s):
And, and I was, you know, doing all of that, like, you know, nowadays, like, you know, opera and theater at all has to be in personal. It doesn't have to be, there's really interesting virtual theater that's happening because of the pandemic, but, you know, it has to be with people and it has to do. And, you know, and I, then I also needed my breakaway from that of like, I'm just going to go sit here and read my books and think about my articles and think about language a little bit. And I kind of split between, you know, this very interpersonal world of, you know, logistics and relationships in opera and theater, and then, you know, being on my own and thinking my thoughts,
2 (1h 21m 12s):
Oh, that's what you meant by work-life balance really more it's really work, work balance. It's a little
4 (1h 21m 17s):
Bit maybe that. So
2 (1h 21m 19s):
I'm curious, I'm curious about something you said in the beginning where you said that the music program is pretty formal and the theater program is pretty informal. What about you? Do you like the formal more, or do you like the informal more?
4 (1h 21m 37s):
I I'm much more, I think comfortable with some of the informal, but it is, I have found that some of the formality at the music school is like helpful. And I have also found, I think this, in some ways it goes in my head, these things are related of, you know, the formality of the music school and the fact that, you know, it's, everyone knows the show and they come in knowing the show and everyone knows the story of M or whatever, in that the, the rules are much clearly or more clearly to find. I feel like, and then the actual rehearsal processes tend to just be very focused and like, cool.
4 (1h 22m 24s):
We know we got to stage the thing in two weeks or whatever, and we're just going to go, go, go. We're not like doing any table work or nearest discovery and there's artistry in it, but I find it it's very different than, you know, in theaters, in some of the theater rehearsal rooms I've been in where it's, like you said, at the table for, you know, three days, and then there's just like physical exercises for four days. And then eventually you actually start to set things. The example I always give of why I enjoy sometimes working in opera is opera. When you're taking like timings of a show, it's almost always exactly the same because the music and the tempo is exact.
4 (1h 23m 11s):
If you have a good conductor, it's the same every day, right? It they're going to conduct that thing the same way they've conducted at the last 20 times versus in theater. Sometimes I have found a two minute monologue turns into two and a half minute monologue turns into 30 seconds. I'm a monologue after you forgot half of your line, it turns into a five minute monologue. As you try to remember your lines, that's fun in its own way. But I also really enjoy the fact that an opera, everyone knows their lines and we're just seeing them write music. And the music is exactly what's written on the page.
1 (1h 23m 51s):
Well, yes. And I wonder too, because we talk a lot about boundary problems within acting program theater conservatory. And I'm wondering if the more, and maybe I, I could be totally off, but I just wonder if there's a correlation between the, in sort of the nebulous area of calling a teacher, Hey, Hey, you know, you know, whatever their nickname is, sort of lends itself to what are the rules here? Are we peers? Are you, are you, are you on my level? And really they're not, they're 25 years old or some cases, but there is. And so I'm imagining at the music school, the conservatory, as it was sort of meant to be back in the day, sort of maintains that sort of no, I'm the instructor.
1 (1h 24m 38s):
I have no feelings. I mean, this is what I make up. And you are the student and you, but it's less confusing in a way because people know who the boss is. And who's running the show as where my experience at theater school was like, oh, this is, this is sort of a peer. That's also not a peer. That's a father. And he can, he can cut us from the program, but he's also coming to our party on Friday night and drinking. I mean, it's, it's a little bit, it's a little, it's, it's very tricky to say the least. So it's interesting that the music school has maintained what I assumed and maybe I'm wrong to that. Back in the day, the acting school might've been more, but then it hit this sixties, seventies period, where everyone was just, I think it was okay to sleep with everybody.
1 (1h 25m 25s):
And that infiltrated the acting part and the music part never got that. Because I remember at DePaul, the music school was just like, you're saying that, that they, that was way more formal. Cause we have a friend whose father was a music professor and they called him Dr. Brown all the time. Jeff's dad, professor brown doctor. It was never like, you know, like it was more like, so I don't know. I think I might've used that. I could've used a little more formality. Yeah, me too. Cause I like rules, you know? But in any case, I'm coming to some new realizations based on what you're saying, which is really interesting. And then I just, can you both indulge me?
1 (1h 26m 5s):
I have an opera story. That's like one minute please. Okay. I get a call from my agent. You're going to the lyric opera to audition. I'm like, listen, I don't sing opera. And they are like, well, you're going to know they're looking for people that can just carry a tune, but are actors. I say, no problem. That's me. I go get a coach. I sing. I don't even remember what the opera was. I've I've totally blocked it out. But I get a coach and I sing the stepsister from Rogers and Hammerstein Cinderella. So why would I want my mom? Okay. So if I get a coach mine, I'm thinking, I'm feeling good about myself. I go downtown Chicago to the famed historic lyric opera.
1 (1h 26m 46s):
I go into the basement. There's no cell reception. I noticed I'm like, oh, that's okay. The basement of the bowels of the institution. And I'm, I sit there waiting for my spot to come sitting next to me are two other actors who also are opera singers and are singing operas as at the audition for the role I'm auditioning for. And I think I'm going to call my agency. This is a horrible mistake. I have no cell reception. I'm like, what do I do? Do I run away? Do I go? So I go to the bathroom, they're singing in the bathroom. Like, like doing there. I cannot. So I'm like, okay, I don't. And then they call me in, I walk in, it's a director from Broadway or from, from New York, some famous lady.
1 (1h 27m 28s):
I, the, the, the accompanist starts right away. And I, and I, I literally, it was one time in my life that I went into a blackout. Like I cannot remember. I don't know if I sang the song. I remember seeing the, not the director, but someone else in the room writing no letters on my, on my sheet. And I, I lost my, but you know what? And then I, and I, I just thought, and it was like all the costumes of all the lab, OEMs, where we were in the costume room. And I just remember thinking, this is the only time ever be in an, in a, in the opera as an auditioner.
1 (1h 28m 15s):
And it was true. But I, the respect I had for these people who could sing and, and we had to do a scene and we'd do the splits. So I have so much respect for people who can sing opera, not just carry a tune, sing opera, and do some acting and do physical stuff. I'm like, this is, it was the most terrifying. And the accompanist, I just remember looking, he looked at me like, oh my God, what, what happened to you? You're in trouble. That's my, I was in trouble, girl. I was in trouble.
1 (1h 29m 1s):
Please
5 (1h 29m 2s):
Give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina
We talk to Noelle Rath
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2
00:00:15
That's 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
1
00:00:21
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?
2
00:00:28
Hi, I haven't talked to you 10 years. Been 1000 years. How
1
00:00:35
They celebration? I mean, I know there wasn't a big celebration, but
2
00:00:39
It, it was great. It was a bit of a weekend though. Friday was great. I, yeah, I had a great day. We went out to dinner. We had a great Italian dinner and it was lovely and I got some nice presence and it was, it was great. And I, and I wrote a blog post about,
1
00:01:02
I just read it cause my friend left so good. I'm going to pimp it out today.
2
00:01:06
Oh, that's right. Your friend. Who's your friend that's there or was that
1
00:01:10
God gone? So that's something I want to run by you is like how to in our middle age to navigate friendships that I don't think she listens to this. So I don't, but that for me are very challenging and that's just the truth. So anyway, continue. Well, we'll talk about that.
2
00:01:29
Well, we'll get to that. Yeah. We'll get to that. So on Saturday I got the autopsy from my sister and she is no surprise. She died from alcohol intoxication. We already knew that or alcohol poisoning, but for some reason, my mom and I were both kind of fixated on like what her blood alcohol content was going to be. And I never really looked that much into it. You know, like I know 0.08 is the legal limit for driving, which I think ends up. Meaning like, even if you might even be in trouble, if you have one drink or two drinks
1
00:02:08
For most people's weight, but I don't. Right,
2
00:02:11
Right. Hers was 0.46. Yes. So I looked up on Wikipedia. Like there's actually a very handy little chart there that breaks down for you all the different levels and like what the impairments are and starting at 0.01. I mean, there's, there's observable differences, at least in terms of like, if you're hooked up to machines, I guess, and they're observing you, they may not be that noticeable to other people. But anyway, there's impairments that begin from drink one.
2
00:02:51
And by the time you get to 0.3 is complete blackout. And by the time you get to 0.4 it's onset of coma and respiratory failure, he was at 0.4, six. Yeah. And 0.5 is just death. Like no, no bones about it. If your alcohol is the blood in your alcoholic, if the alcohol in your blood gets to 0.5, you're definitely dead. So it was like surprisingly so upsetting. I don't mean it's surprising that I don't know what, what, I'm not totally sure what it was about that number that had me so rocked.
2
00:03:34
But I was talking to my mom and I was saying like, when I used to drink, when I was younger, I mean, I still drank. But like when I used to really drink for, for partying or whatever you wanna call it, if I got up to five drinks, I was definitely throwing up and I never measured my blood alcohol level. But I'm guessing it would have been, I mean, point, I don't know. I'm guessing it would have been up there. I don't know how you get, how you physically get don't you just start to throw up. And my mom said practice. Yeah. That's what I was going to say. It's tolerance and my blood turn cold when she said that just the chill went up my spine, like, okay.
2
00:04:22
So she had to have been drinking a lot for a long time. She did not have she had the beginnings of cirrhosis, but it wasn't even like, yeah, because it took my dad 11 years to die from, from alcoholism and he had hepatitis. So it was like, it wasn't making a sense to me. It must be. I, I don't, I really don't know how to understand it. Aaron says th I mean, this is suicide. This is not, not that she was intending. It necessarily all those, she might've been, but he was saying like, you have to he's does this hand gesture, you have to be glug, glug, glug, ING, basically to, to get to that blood alcohol level is not an easy thing to do.
2
00:05:12
And so here's what I want to say about it. She was the fifth person of my family to die from alcohol toxicity. And, you know, there was a member of my family that knew she was struggling with it knew she had gone to rehab and she went to rehab. I didn't know any of this. Oh yeah. She went to rehab. Yeah. And th and actually, until I told this family member that we got the, you know, cause of death, that person was telling me that person was not telling me that she was in rehab. That person was telling me that she went away for work.
2
00:05:55
Like she's dead. What's, what's the secret that you're hiding. And this person also hid in her bedroom was a book, the big book of alcoholics anonymous. And this person put, hid that. And, and, and the way they were saying it was like, and of course, should I put that away because that's nobody's business. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? First of all, I hope to God that her kids know that this is what she died from.
1
00:06:29
Not
2
00:06:30
One should know,
1
00:06:32
Oh one should know for so many reasons, if nothing else that, oh, this runs in our family and I should be really careful.
2
00:06:41
Exactly.
1
00:06:42
They don't. They might not know. I bet they don't know.
2
00:06:45
So this is the way that denial kills us, because we don't want to talk about what's really going on. And so, so, so that when somebody is suffering to the point that they want to drink that much, they assume that they're the only person who's suffering like that. They assume that there's no help. They assume that there's no hope for them. Which really, I mean, talking about this stuff only, ever in genders, hope in people, you know what I mean? Because you can't tame it until you name it. It's not the expression. Yeah. So like, how the fuck is anybody supposed to tame, you know, these sicknesses, these, unless they know what they are.
1
00:07:25
It's really, it's really unlike devastating to find out that like, you know, someone that you love. And even if you're, you know, whatever you're strange from them, it doesn't matter. It was suffering. That's the part I think right. Was suffering and felt alone. I mean, I think that's the devastating part. And that's what my father's suicide, the same thing. Like my dad, whether he did it on purpose or not the guy overdosed and my mother country and other family members continue to say that he died to something else. The fuck is wrong. It is insane.
1
00:08:06
That is the insanity of this, of the disease of addiction and mental illness that we at all costs
2
00:08:16
At all costs. I almost want, I almost want to say, and maybe I'll just say it here on this forum. I want to say that if you're somebody who is covering up for somebody else who is in, in, in harm's way with substance, you are a killer. Yep.
1
00:08:38
Yep. You are. You were helping too. You were like an accomplice to murder. Like really.
2
00:08:43
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that that is probably going to sound harsh to a lot of people, but it's just the truth. It's just the truth. Because, because, and the reason I it's the truth is because if you did the opposite of that, if you said, wow, you're really struggling. I want to help you. What can I do to help you? Or if you don't get help, I'm afraid I can't continue in this relationship. If you're not doing that, then you are. And also the last person you're doing a favor for is that person. Right? You know what I mean? Like I, I have this thought that people at my family think that if we say that this is what she died from that we're tarnishing her memory.
2
00:09:24
I mean, it's,
1
00:09:27
It has tarnished already because of the disease and the secrecy. So like, if anything, you'd be shining a light and, and, and, and helping her memory to be one of the person had a disease that wasn't there. It was a no fault illness.
2
00:09:43
Exactly. That's what I want to say too. It's it's not her fault. I mean, she was an alcoholic. It may have been her, it may have been her responsibility. I mean, it was her responsibility to do something about it, but yeah, nobody, nobody decides that they want to grow up one day and drink themselves to death. That's just not how it works.
1
00:10:06
Oh my God, that's intense. Oh my God.
2
00:10:10
It was intense. I, I, but you know, another win for me is that I totally dealt with it. I did not sweep it under the rug. I felt sad. I cried. I talked about it. I felt low, you know, that day and the next day. And, and, and I, you know, that's, all I can do is honor the feeling.
1
00:10:30
Right. And, and I think like breaking the cycle right. Of denial. And also, yeah, the way that you talk about it, you know, that's a huge step in a direction that is the opposite direction of the secrecy and the like, shame, right? Like I think that shame, like busting the shame, breaking the shame and saying, you know, this is the truth. This is what happened. And, and shining a light and not being willing to let whatever shame for me anyway, whatever shame keeps us quiet. It really does.
1
00:11:10
It really does allow other people to do the same. And I think that's the only way out of, of the hell, which is addiction and mental illness. And so you're doing that so good for you, but, oh, my Najah, that is like a hard weekend situation after you're. Okay. Okay.
2
00:11:32
So, but now I want to hear about your,
1
00:11:35
Okay. So I, it's interesting. I, as I, as I progress in age, I wonder, I noticing, and I wonder if you notice it, that things, what is it it's that they, they always say, oh, as you get older, you get stuck in your ways. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and it's not true, but I think it's really hard for me to change my routines to change my, I it's just so strange. So I had this friend come lovely human being, but I, but you know, but we have one bedroom and I think I stayed in your house.
1
00:12:23
Yeah. It was a terrible idea and no, and a no fault, again, a no fault situation. But what I need to do is say, Hey, the, the, this, this whole staying in our one bedroom on our sofa and our, our sleeper is not going to work unless you're a teenager and a small person. And don't mind being woken up at 5:00 AM, by a dog. And if any of those things are not true, you can't stay here. No, it has nothing to do with that. And it's interesting because it's like, it really brings up sort of like people pleasing stuff for me of like, well, if I ask someone to stay in a hotel, or if I, if I, if I do that, then that means I'm mean, or I'm not.
1
00:13:10
I mean, that has really come up for me. And someone said to, or I read people pleasing and it really hit home is a form of manipulation. So, wow. So it is not, it is, that is really like at the root. And I was like, okay, well, if I look at it like that, I don't want to manipulate others. I really don't because I don't like being manipulated. So if I see people pleasing as that, instead of just like we're talking about and like covering up for someone, if I see it as dangerous and not acceptable behavior and something that I wouldn't want happen to me, then that helps me to make choices and how I interact in my relationships.
1
00:13:53
So amazing reframe that's exactly what it is. And I could never put my finger on it before, because I think, well, people pleasing sounds nice, please. People sometimes, no, it's manipulation. It's total manipulation. And it, it, it it's, it's, it erodes the fabric of relationships and you can't have a real relationship. So like, right. I rely, I've also relied on other people like to say, oh, you know, they have a one bedroom. I'm not going to stay there, but people are going to do what they're going to do, whether it's for financial reasons, or it doesn't matter, they do their dance. That's not my responsibility.
1
00:14:34
My responsibility is to not manipulate through people pleasing because I'm afraid to, to say, Hey, our place is teeny. You cannot stay here. Cause we'll all lose our mind. And she wanted to stay five nights originally. And I said, no, no, no. I said three. And we left Santa Barbara for one, I took her away to Santa Barbara, which was the smartest thing I could have done just for space reasons. And, but anyway, but I'm just learning like, as I get older, like there are things that used to be negotiable for me that are non-negotiable in terms of like sleep. I need a certain amount of sleep for my mental health and physical health.
1
00:15:15
I need a certain amount of, I have to respect my husband's space and sleep, and I have a dog and it's a whole different thing. And the dog, I brought this dog into our lives. So to say to the dog, you have to behave differently because we have a guest and you're you're three months old, 3.5 months old is also not okay. I mean, look, the dog is fine. And I, but like learning that I have to take responsibility for my life. It all comes down like this is nobody else's life. This is nobody else's house. This is nobody else's journey.
1
00:15:55
And, and, and I'm going to stop manipu, being a manipulator. And by doing that, I have to really commit to, to not being a people pleaser. It's really interesting. It's really, it hit home so hard when I saw that quote, I was like, oh my God, that is the truth.
2
00:16:11
Yeah. That, that just changed me. I, it makes perfect sense because the way, the reason that we became people pleasers was for our own survival. It's not like we said, gosh, this person really needs are. I mean, it's really not altruistic in, in any way. It's, it's the opposite of that. It's just as selfish as the Eddy other behavior might be considered
1
00:16:37
Really interesting. And I think it, it, it, it for women and stuff, it sort of becomes second nature and like, like acceptable, you know, people pleasing does sound really great. And like, you're being very compassionate, but it's not that for me, it is definitely, I don't want to feel an uncomfortable feeling and I don't want to risk you being mad at me. So I'm gonna just do this and then be resentful and then nothing changes. And I reinforced the behavior.
2
00:17:08
You get the impression that that person also understood that it wasn't a great idea.
1
00:17:16
No, because I get it. I think that that person is just in doing their own thing and isn't, and has a different, I don't know, like it is not a people, pleaser is more of a something else. And so that's why we attracted each other. And so, yeah, I just got the feeling that that person was just doing their thing and like, could not sense.
2
00:17:44
Yeah. And the other thing is when you live in LA New York, Chicago, or maybe even some of the other large cities, people are always coming into town and people are always wanting to stay with you and you always have the right to say is, it's just not going to work. I love to see you. I'd love to hang out with you. I can recommend a great hotel across the street. Right. But you just can't stay.
1
00:18:09
No, it just doesn't work. And it does, it really upset, upsets the, the, what is it? Homeostasis of the, of my whole vibe, my whole life, you know? And, and, and yeah, and that's just the truth.
2
00:18:22
I personally can't imagine at my age ever wanting to stay. I mean, I don't even want to stay with my own family. Like I do. I go and stay with my mom, but I, you know, if, if I had all the money in the world, I would always just stay in a hotel. Yeah. It's just, it ma it makes for a better time together when you're with the person, if there isn't any resentment about like, how, what you like the temperature to be when you're sleeping or how loud you can be, or what time you getting rid of that.
1
00:18:57
Yeah. And that's just the way to do it. So I'm learning, you know, I'm a learning and we're learning, what else is going on?
2
00:19:05
What else is going on? I do. I'm doing like some intense sort of writing exercises with my theater group, where we started this new thing of writing five minute plays. So you, so we have, we pick a, there's a word of the week. We pick up the word and then there, we pick a prop and we pick a line of dialogue that everybody has to use. And then we'd go away and write the little play and come back and present it the next Monday. So we just did it for the first time, this past weekend. And we presented last night and it was really fun. I ended up writing something that I don't know that I would have written otherwise, like, you know, because I had to incorporate these other things.
2
00:19:50
And it's, it's actually a really good way. Writing exercises are a very good way to get out of your own ruts. You know, like if you find yourself always writing the same character, always writing the same type of dialogue. If you get some externally imposed restrictions on what you can write, it leads you to think in a way that you might not otherwise. That's fantastic. And what else, what else have you got going on meetings or writing wise?
1
00:20:21
Nothing. Right now. It's interesting. It's sort of like a lull in between. People are supposedly reading my script. I'm the head of roadmap to see who he thinks might be a good rep, but he, but like life, like people forget about you. I mean, that is just the truth. It's not that you're forgettable. It is that we're all forgettable really. And that people have a big life. So I, I wrote him and said he was supposed to read it and pass it to another person at roadmap writers and say, Hey, which reps do you think that we know might fit this? And what, what do we think this pilot needs? And, and is she ready to be wrapped with this, with this pilot and then that, so I'm in a hole I'm sort of in a holding pattern, but the big news is my husband got a full-time job.
1
00:21:09
Praise, Jesus.
2
00:21:11
I know. Awesome.
1
00:21:13
He got a full-time regular
2
00:21:15
Waiting for that for the longest time. It was
1
00:21:17
Like two years in the making and the guy hasn't had a full-time permanent job in 20 years. He's been a contractor for 20 years. So this was like a huge step. He starts on my birthday, October four. And, and we were just relieved and so grateful. And it was, you know, it's also though a good reminder, like then I go into, because I'm a human I'm like, oh my God, well, he has to keep this job and he can't lose this job. I mean, it can get insane. So I'm really telling myself, like, stay in the day, the guy just got the job. Everything's a process nothing's permanent anyway, stay in the day, stay in the day. So that's really that's.
2
00:21:54
Yeah. That relates to the thing that I wanted to run by you, which is that tendency that urge, you felt to then want to control, like how he stays in the job, or that's very familiar to me. And I was talking to somebody about it recently, somebody who was complaining that in their family, any thing negative is never tolerated anything. You know, it's like any, any challenge or struggle you have is like, you have to stiff upper lip it to the point that this person doesn't feel like they can ever say, I mean, even something simple, like
1
00:22:42
I don't like this of like,
2
00:22:44
Yeah, I don't. Yeah. It's like, well, but you have food and you you're going to be grateful for it. So, and she was, she was telling me that, you know, there was this long period of time actually, where she hadn't had a job and then she got a job and she hated the job. I mean, she wasn't quitting it, but she, she hated the job. And whenever she would say anything to her family about it, they would say, yeah, but you're really grateful. You have the job. Right. And for a while, she was like, oh yeah, you know, she's feeling badly that she shouldn't have any bad feelings about it. The thing about feelings is you just don't get to decide what they are. I wish you could. I really wish you brought program.
2
00:23:27
And just say like, no, Siri, I don't want to have this feeling right now, but that's one thing we haven't outsourced yet. You simply can't control it. What the feelings you have are the feelings you have. The only thing you can control is the outcome. And it makes sense. Like, if you think of people who in past generations, we're in poverty, like there's no room for any, no thing, but you know, putting your nose down and doing the work. And I get that, but we're not living in an agrarian society anymore. And people have complaints. And, and by the way, generations ago, they had complaints to just the, the fact that they weren't allowed to say it out loud. Doesn't mean they lived happy.
1
00:24:05
Exactly. Well, I think it's, it's just comes back to exactly what we're saying is about addiction and mental illness and everything is like, just because you don't speak it out loud actually doesn't mean that there's not a whole torrent of storms inside of you. It's still there. It's just that you're not expressing it. And it has to go somewhere.
2
00:24:25
They go somewhere. And that makes a lot of sense too. Like if you think about how the body is processing trauma and, and it'll just go somewhere until you, you can deal with it. And same thing is true for frankly, every emotion, you know, the best, the best gift you can give yourself. And certainly the people who you love is the gift of acceptance that this thing has happened. Do you feel this type of way about it and it, and it's okay. It's not. And some people take it too far. It's so, okay. That you can do whatever you want because you have, you know, poor, you, you had to go through. It's not that it's simply just, okay. Yeah. I mean, my, my daughter is actually a good example.
2
00:25:06
My daughter, I'll say, she's going through what? I'll call a high, a hypochondria phase. She wants to come to you and say, it hurts when I do this, you know? And I'm like, okay, well, let's, don't do that for a few days. Then I, I mean, in any given day, she'll have seven elements. And my practice is, cause what happens to me inside is I feel, I feel like anxiety shoots up in me immediately. And it actually, it took me a long time to know that that was happening. And then it took me a little while to figure out why would I have that reaction of well, because that's how people reacted to me when I like we can't afford you.
2
00:25:53
Can't be sick. You can't have a problem. We can't deal with that. It, it, it, it doesn't work. So I'm practicing. I'll, I'll keep everybody posted on how it's going. I'm just practicing saying, I'm really sorry that you're feeling that way. Let me check it out. Okay. Let me know if it keeps, you know, if it persists,
1
00:26:13
Right? I mean, I think, yeah, it is. So it is so right. It is the first step is realizing what your reaction is. Right. And that is huge to say like, okay, like I, when, when, when a member of my family, you know, like get sick or something, I go to rage, like, how dare you be sick? How dare you allow yourself to have a need and inconvenience everybody. And that's because that's how I treated. But it took me a long time to say, why am I like enraged that my husband has a cold, like, this doesn't make any sense, but it does make sense because I wasn't allowed to have a cold.
1
00:26:53
Right. But this is now that was, then he's allowed to have a cold. It doesn't mean the end of the world, but it takes a while to figure out what the hell has he been going on? Yeah.
2
00:27:03
Yeah. And I think the other thing that comes up for me when I feel anxiety or rage, when somebody is low, I don't mean this word, but I'm being cheeky, like indulge in their needs. The anger is I didn't get to act like that when I was your age. So therefore you don't get to.
1
00:27:25
So it even goes to someone, a psychologist was talking about people who have, and this was me for a long time in public places. When an infant is crying, if you have that rage to shut that infant up a lot of times, it's because you were, you felt that you couldn't do that. Also. We feel, we can't do that as adults when we'd like to start screaming and crying and that, and that, that infant is expressing what we all wish we could. And nobody likes that because it's not there. And I was like, that's so true. And when I looked at it that way, look, I still don't like screaming, infants, who does? I mean, it's just annoying, but it wasn't, it didn't, it doesn't trigger me like on planes and stuff anymore as bad because I'm like, oh, that kid is doing that being is doing what we all wish we could.
1
00:28:13
And they're the only acceptable outlet for it. If an adult did that, they'd go right to jail and then they'd be checked in, you know? And, and, but that infant gets to express that and like, wow. You know? Yeah.
2
00:28:26
Yeah. So the only other thing I wanted to mention to you is that I, for some reason, my kids were like, mom, the Emmy's were on tonight. We've got to watch the Emmy's. They have never watched any award show to my knowledge. I don't. I think my daughter thought that her favorite YouTubers might be like getting awards. And I tried to say, I don't think they do those kind of, they will soon. Sure. I'm sure there's going to be YouTube awards. And I'm sure they're going to be injustice. I'm sure they're going to outpace the Oscar. Exactly. Cause
1
00:28:57
They're just, those influencers are on top of it. Yeah.
2
00:29:00
But so I started to watch it. Cause that's the thing I usually like is the clothes and I right away. Did you watch it? Nope. Okay. I right away noticed, wow. So many nominees are actors of color. This is, or not just actors, writers, whatever people of colored. This is great. Wow. Who the tightest is suddenly shifting. And then one after the other, it was like, but then the one white guy was in the one white girl, one like
1
00:29:28
I, that big thing that
2
00:29:30
Was the big, oh, is that what people are saying about
1
00:29:33
More? I believe it was more people of color were nominated than ever before and less one, the actual word than ever before. I mean,
2
00:29:41
My God it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like white folks saying you should just be happy just to be nominated. Look at that. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to let you win. Yeah. There needs to be some type of like in Hollywood. I wish sometimes I wish Hollywood was just like a company that everybody got like a company newsletter, you know? And then this week's newsletter is like, Hey, listen, we are white. Fragility was really showing, you know, you have to remind yourself that it's, you're not recognizing somebody whose work is not doing them a favor.
2
00:30:21
It's recognizing their work. It's not doing them a favor when it's your favorite white actress and it's not doing them a favor when it's your favorite blackout. Right. Right. It's recognizing the work it's about the work and all rising tide lifts all boats. And when you have better work, more better work comes out of it. Like, you know, this whole thing about the appetite. Like people always like, well, but it's the American appetite for whatever. Okay. Well guess what Americans, myself included, like the thing that you tell me it alike to somehow agree. And if you tell, and if you tell me that something that I know is shit, you know, is shit. Then, then I go, okay, good.
2
00:31:02
I I'm, I, I, that, that tracks with the belief that I already have, we could just make all pro content better. It could all be more interesting. Right. Did you see McKayla Kohl's and I watched, I thought that was brilliant. I thought that was brilliant. She she's brilliant. And that I watched because people kept reposting it and I'm like, oh, she said something brilliant. So let me watch. And I just really appreciated it. And I, I she's, you know, tells you to keep going. And for those of the people who are listening, who don't know the, the, her big thing was it's okay to, or actually you should, as a writer, an unplug because, you know, we get caught up in this web of re what was the word?
2
00:31:48
She is, it was not ref visibility, visibility. I think it was, we get caught up in our own visibility and how many people have seen this thing. And we don't, we don't feel like it's real or important until people have seen it, which, you know, there's understandable reasons for that too. But all the time you spend in vexation about whether or not you're being viewed is time that you're not spending, looking at yourself. Yeah. That's what it is. Honestly, we all are just, we want people to see us, but not really see us. Right. We need to see ourselves. So the answer is, as I used to say to my clients, well, the bad news is the problem is you.
2
00:32:28
And the good news is the solution is you.
0
00:32:33
Well today
3
00:32:39
On the podcast, we're talking with Noel wrath. Noel is someone who went to the dealer school for a time when we were there at DePaul university and she left, but wow, she was there. She was a part of what Gina and I have talked about as a spiritual movement or religious movement that kind of swept up the theater school for a time. And she tells us all about that. And she talks about her writing and what she's up to now. And it was very interesting. So please enjoy our conversation with Noel rap.
2
00:33:16
She got a French bulldog named Joris. We have a mutt named Wallace, Doris wallets. What's your dog's name?
4
00:33:26
Lucky. Lucky. He's a toy poodle. So he's seven pounds of anxiety.
2
00:33:35
That's funny. They say that about little jogs that they're nervous. Little suckers.
4
00:33:41
No, I know. I was really hoping that I don't know. Somehow we would look out and not have one of those Yippy dogs, but they just bark it everyday. They just are just high alert at all times.
2
00:33:54
It's literally their only defense, literally.
4
00:33:58
I know. And that's what I keep reminding myself is like, you know, he's just so little and vulnerable that he has to think he's big, but yeah.
2
00:34:08
So Noel wrath, congratulations. You survived theater school. Well,
4
00:34:13
Yeah, sorta. Yeah,
2
00:34:16
You did. You did it and sort of is like the, all for the most part, that's all of us, right. It's like we survived sort of, and we're here, you know? Yeah.
4
00:34:29
Well, I mean, I made my own choice to leave, so it's kind of a different scenario, I suppose. I don't think
2
00:34:36
I realized that. So yeah. Say the whole time,
4
00:34:40
Right? Yeah. I ended up, I ended up deciding to leave right before my senior year started.
2
00:34:48
Oh, wow. That was a bold move. What precipitated that
4
00:34:54
It, you know, which I suppose we'll get into, but it really was a pretty dramatic spiritual experience that happened while I was in school. And I remember going to Betsy's office to have a conversation with her because I knew a lot of people for whatever reason would take a leave of absence. And I really thought that's what I need to do. I need to kind of figure things out. And I was going in to have a conversation with her about taking a leave of absence. And it was through that conversation that she really kind of, I don't want to say she kind of coached out, but she helped me realize that maybe this wasn't the path for me right now, you know, because I would have to be compromising for, you know, for what I believed was compromising.
4
00:35:54
What, you know, what then I was, I was feeling was the sort of like new understanding of, of who I was and my reality. She was like, it's just going to be one compromise after another. And I'm not sure if this is, I mean, she wasn't like, I'm not sure if this is a good fit, but she helped me realize, like I had options. And that was actually really freeing to realize that yeah,
2
00:36:23
You said, we'll get into it. Let's get into it right now. I mean, so our, our experience, or I'll say my experience was w w one day a bunch of people seemed like they were all part of one specific group that was, that included the way people dressed, sort of like in long skirts and, and, and going to, I don't even know what the churches, but, but, but going to church, I'm sure. I'm sure it was, it didn't happen in one day, but you're the first person we're talking to who was sort of a part of this. So we'd love to hear what your experience was.
4
00:37:05
So well, I mean, just to put it in context, you know, I like coming to the theater school, I was one of those people where like I barely got in, you know, I, I, I did not, I was not as studious person. You know, actually I remember meeting with, I think it was what is her name, Melissa, Melissa Meltzer. And she was like, oh, we'd really love to have you, your, your act scores are a little low. Maybe you could try retaking that. So I actually did, I got a few points higher, but even getting in, I was like right away, sort of on an academic probation, you know, I was just more concerned with my social life than I was about studying, which was sort of what gravitated me towards acting because it's just fun and play and, you know, anyway, so, so as soon as I got to Chicago, I mean, coming from, you know, sort of a small town in Minnesota, I was just like, everything is at my fingertips, you know?
4
00:38:17
And I remember one night, you know, kind of innocently with a friend that was in my acting class saying, you know, let's go clubbing tonight. Let's like, see what that's all about. And man, that just opened up a whole kind of world to
1
00:38:35
Me that just sucked me in right away. I big world the clubbing. Oh, I did not. I did not. I was not a clubbing. So first of all, were you, were you in the class, did you start school the same time we did I'm con 93, 94 94.
4
00:38:56
Yep. So with ed and Erica Yancey who you've had on, I'm trying to think if there's oh, Paul home Quist. Yeah. Okay. And I don't know if, for some reason as I, I always gravitated towards the drug dealers too were like magnets for me. So I had my pick of whatever I wanted and it just really sucked me in big time. So I had a good experience at the theaters go in terms of like, I loved my teachers, I actually got decent roles. I just, as you know, it was always the case with Noel. I wasn't applying myself, you know, like I wasn't really in it.
4
00:39:42
I was just so scattered. So, so that was kind of, you know, that sort of like setting the stage or whatever for, I think what ended up being this kind of an awakening for me. So anyway, so it was my third year and I was cast in a two person show Danny and the deep blue sea. And it was, it was Barry was the director and Anthony LoCascio was the, was Danny. And it was really the first like major lead role that I'd ever had.
4
00:40:25
I mean, I'd done a lot of musical theater and then leads in that kind of thing, but a straight, you know, dramatic lead was, you know, it was a lot of, it was a lot of responsibility. And I remember Anthony and I taking that really serious. And, you know, we were kind of, you know, like you are, when you're 19, you're, you're exploring, you're having deep philosophical conversations, you know, and we would spend so much time drinking coffee and smoking at the golden app, just philosophizing about life. And we just really were interested in God.
4
00:41:06
We were just had a lot of conversations about what is God and what, you know, and in my own, in my own mind, I really thought that I had a clear understanding of who God was and what that meant to me. And I used to always say to him like, well, you're closer than you think. You know, like I really felt like for whatever, I'm like, I had it all too. Like I had it together, like I knew, and I had this close relationship with God because some experience that as I'd had, like as a teenager or whatever, but that's sort of the beauty too, like before you, you do get all indoctrinated is that you are having this experience and it's sort of unfolding as it needs to, instead of someone telling you, this is what you should be believing, or this is what you should be doing or whatever.
4
00:41:57
I mean, I really do believe that it's supposed to just sort of unfold and happen in its own time. Do you want to say more about, I'm curious about what happened to you as a teenager that, that sort of exposed you to, well, just, you know, I guess just going way back, I mean, I've just always, I've always been a real sensitive person when it comes to spiritual things and I've always had a deep longing for understanding, you know, what this all is and who I am. I mean, even now with my own kids, I love to talk to them, stuff like that, you know, and just to like, sort of try to pick apart, I mean, I'm always reading spiritual books and just, I don't know where I am.
4
00:42:50
Yeah, very much so I don't have any answers, but I just love to dig deep and figure out, you know, what's beyond and how this is all connected and how we're connected and, you know, so I grew up Catholic, but then I had, you know, I went to like some camps with friends, you know, and there you have kind of, you know, emotional experiences and then you feel really close to God for a while. And then about two weeks later, you know who you were. I mean, it was just always this cycle of that, you know, it was like having emotional experiences and, and feeling more in touch with my true self, but then I'm always kind of reverting back to, you know, behaviors that are typical, I guess, if a teen or whoever, but probably weren't the best choices, you know?
4
00:43:54
So yeah, so we would, so Anthony and I would, would have these amazing conversations and cliche as it is then of course we developed sort of a relationship, you know, during the show and it, it, you know, that show is very intense. I mean, it's like two hours in my underwear, swearing and slapping each other. It was like, that was the first show that my parents got to see me. Yeah. That's, that's a big one. Yeah. And I remember it was opening night and he comes to me, you know, in the green room or whatever, and he's all excited.
4
00:44:41
And he tells me, I went to church and I got baptized today and I was like, whoa, that's, that's awesome. You know, I was so excited for him. And then we go and we do the show and I don't even remember much about the show itself, you know, or truly having any sort of understanding about what we're doing there or who this character really was. But it was kind of after that, that I started going to this church with him and th this church was affiliated with his, his brother, his brother had, had a pretty, you know, again, dramatic conversion, you know, through this church, it's, it's a Pentecostal church.
4
00:45:33
And this older man had started a kind of what they call like a daughter work, you know, sort of a satellite church in Schomburg, which is a pretty far suburb outside of Chicago, but that's, that's where they were going. So we started doing a Bible study with Anthony and his brother and his, and his brother's wife. And I just kind of got, I don't want to say I got sucked in, you know, but it really did feel it, it just felt really pure and genuine.
4
00:46:17
And I think what's been so helpful for me listening to this podcast specifically is because I don't talk about the experience of, I mean, I don't want to say like joining a cult because I don't think it's a cult. I mean, it has ish tendencies, but I appreciate what you guys have talked about. That everything is sort of a cult. And especially when you're 18, 19 years old, I was always like, how did I let that happen? You know, like how did I let my life like completely go in an opposite direction?
4
00:46:58
How did I let myself get so sucked up into like these strangers? Like, I didn't know these people at all. Well, and it's because you are so young and you're completely taken away from your family, you know? I mean, you're, you're out there by yourself. And I think, you know, being in such a, being in such a dark place with the clubbing and the raving and the drugs and everything that goes along with that, I think like deep inside, I was really like longing for something that was more true to me. And, and I was really longing for family and just something that would be like a foundation and stabilize me.
4
00:47:45
And it certainly did. I mean, it was a lot of rules, right? You had to follow a lot of rules. It's, it's, it's definitely a more legalistic type of religion and they don't, you know, and it's not like, oh, now you're in like, do this, do that. I mean, they're very, like, I mean, I could tell from the beginning, it was like, no one wanted to talk about it. Like no one wanted to talk about the fact that women are wearing skirts and, you know, like all the other things like, you know, which eventually you start, but it really was more like me realizing it on my own.
4
00:48:26
And when I would bring it up, the women would be very like, hold well, but don't worry about that. You know, you just, just do what you're doing. Just, you know, keep coming. Like you could tell that they, they knew that once you are fully in it, typically women start to then have an issue with it, you know, because it's, it is so counter-cultural, and, and there's some pretty extreme things. One being is that you do not cut your hair because it's considered like a covering almost like a veil, like a physical Vale.
4
00:49:11
So there, I mean, there was one point where I had hair down to my calves. Like I had not cut my hair in like five, seven years. Yeah. Yeah. So it wasn't too long into the experience with, with Anthony in this church that I don't know, it's probably even just like three, four months that I started to realize like, oh, all these women are, you know, like they don't wear makeup and they're always wearing skirts. And so I started to ask questions and I really did it on my own. I was like, okay, well, that's, that's different, but that's not a big deal.
4
00:49:53
I mean, I could try that, you know? So I just, I would go to thrift stores and buy the most hideous, well, this is a long skirt. So that works. I mean, that's what I like is when you say we looked like we walked out of little house on the Prairie it's because we had like, no idea what we were doing, but it really was coming from a pure place. I mean,
1
00:50:17
One, I, I, what really sticks out to me, something that you resonate that resonates really deeply with me is the idea that you were looking for family and as someone who, as a former therapist for, you know, for gang members and for all, it's always that looking to belong. And I'm telling you, if I had been approached, I'm telling you right now, if I had been approached by anyone in your group and sat down and said, we love you. We want you to come do this. I would have done it too. I know I would have, I just wasn't in the it's like I wasn't exposed to it so I could see how
4
00:50:56
Well that's, why there were so many from our class. And even younger that for a while were pulled into it. Even Mary Kay cook was one Heather Callington Sarah Whitaker. I mean, she and I were, were best friends at the time. I mean, we all, and then there was, there was other, you know, other people too that, you know, came maybe to church once or twice with us, or, you know, I even remember, I mean, it was like this mini revival was breaking out within the theater school. I mean, it was like, you could tell people for so spiritually hungry.
4
00:51:38
I mean, they really, I remember one time, you know, we sort of like posted something on the board, like let's just get together and have a Bible study, like anyone that wants to come and we reserved some room I like in the annex or something. And there was there, I, I feel like there was like 20 to 30 people that showed up and there was such a buzz in the air and, you know, no organization or like, who's really leading this. And, but you could tell there was just such an excitement. People were really hungry for it. And I wish that, you know, the, the church and, you know, the philosophies around this particular denomination, weren't so dogmatic and absolute, because I think that we could have together had a bigger impact at that time.
4
00:52:34
But, you know, because certain people were, you know, were more about let's follow the church, then let's all have sort of like a, I don't know, just a more open-mindedness about it to honoring like everyone's perspectives and experiences and where they were coming from. But, you know, unfortunately that, that type of denomination was like, no, you know, it has to be this way. And this is, this is the truth. Like, if you don't see it that way, then, you know, I don't want to, we don't really have anything more to say kind of a thing.
4
00:53:14
So that's, that's unfortunate. Did you,
1
00:53:18
I just have a question. Did you feel that that buzz in the air that sort of yeah, that was like taking, I wanna know. Did, did they, did, did the teachers get involved? What, what went down like okay. Cause I'm really curious about that aspect and like how they handled it and also, yeah, just that, can you talk about like the culture, like, did the teachers say you have to stop this? Or what, how did it go? Cause I, I was so in my own world,
4
00:53:48
I would be, I would love to know what they thought, because I'm sure that they were like, what is going on? Like, it just seemed like they didn't really know what to do with us, which is probably why Betsy, you know, was probably the voice of the majority of the teachers saying, I think it's probably be best if you found a different path, you know, a different career or whatever. Right.
2
00:54:25
Because one of the, one
4
00:54:26
Of the, I mean, cause what do they do? You know? I mean
2
00:54:29
Limitations, if I remember correctly, it is the material. Like there was a L a lot of, I mean, it just, it, the things that people were willing to do, the things that the students were willing to do, the students who are part of this changed really quickly, and it became, I don't want to do material with cursing or sex or
4
00:54:55
Yeah. I mean, it was, it was crazy and yeah, exactly. Like, I didn't know. I remember having conversations with a couple of MFA actors and just saying like, what, is there out there for Christian actor? I mean, and of course we know it's like not much and really bad and it's already hard enough making it as a regular actor, you know, willing to do anything and then put all of these stipulations on it. I mean, I was fortunate where, you know, I was so I'm, I'm discovering who I am and I'm kind of transforming as a, as a person.
4
00:55:44
And I was still cast in some shows. I mean, I'm sure that was probably I'm sure that was probably intentional, you know, from the, from the faculty standpoint and things where I didn't feel compromised, you know, like I did bridge to Terabithia, which is a children's show. And, and then, you know, under milk wood, which is like, everybody was in that didn't get a main stage or something, you know? So I was able to sort of, I was able to sort of exit gracefully and not feel like I was put in a position where, but I do remember I was in bridge to Terabithia.
4
00:56:25
I had, I had really short hair. Cause I went through like the nineties pixie cut phase, you know, remember you with your hair on your little burette right here. Right, right. But I remember, and that was probably part of the reason why I got cast because I had this short hair and I was supposed to play this tomboy. And I remember going to the makeup room and I think it was Nan is her name and her saying now, you know, so we're going to have to keep up this short hair. So let me know when you are scheduling another hair cut. And I was like, oh, you know, actually I don't cut my hair anymore.
4
00:57:10
It's like, it's like a religious thing. And you know, that was one of the first things where, and she's looking at me and I'm looking at her like, and I think it was even in that moment that I'm starting to realize, oh, there's going to be a lot of this kind of thing. You know, there's going to be a lot of, oh, I can't do this. Or I don't know. I don't know. Looking back. I'm just, I think that's, what's strange now is that like, I'm listening to everyone's stories about either, you know, going on and being, working actors and coming to a place now where, what we're like 20, 25 years later.
4
00:57:53
And they're kind of like, wow, this has been a really interesting choice. It's like a very bizarre life, you know? And for me, I've always hung on to this idea, like, like the, what if, what if I hadn't left? What if I had stuck with it? And I'm always kind of, I don't want to say tortured by it, but there certainly is a part of me that's like, as I've never feel like I've found my place, you know, you still feel that I still feel that way. I've never feel like it's like ever since I left, I'm like now what, what am I doing?
4
00:58:37
You know, what did you, when I, right after you left, I left. And I immediately, I stayed at DePaul and I immediately enrolled in the English literature department. So I graduated with an English lit degree and I will say that. And I've always said that that leaving in terms of education-wise was one of the best things I ever did because, you know, at that point now I'm more of a straight and narrow. And I, I really got excited about learning and I finally figured out how to study.
4
00:59:19
And I was, I had an amazing liberal arts education at DePaul. You know, I was like introduced to so many amazing works and just classes and professors. So I ended up graduating in five years instead of four, you know, so it took me an extra two years or whatever, but that really kind of helped propel me on, you know, in terms of like my later sort of just love for continuous learning and reading. And, but, you know, I remember even standing in line at graduation and, you know, you kind of, with all of these other English lit people and they had a plan, you know, like they all knew what they were doing.
4
01:00:04
Or a lot of people knew that they were going to grad school right away. Or they, you know, they were going to be editors or work in publishing or journalism. And I was just like, I just had to pick something, you know, and something that sort of interested me, but I had no idea what I was going to do with it. You know? So I have been all over the map in terms of, you know, a career afterwards, but yeah.
2
01:00:30
So what, what are you doing now?
4
01:00:35
Actually, I'm a writer right now. I work for an architectural firm and I do technical writing for that.
2
01:00:44
Yeah. I mean, that's interesting though that you you're, that's a completely reasonable career choice and yet you feel like you don't, maybe you're not saying you don't belong to your career. Maybe you're saying you don't feel like you belong in a different way or you don't have your, you don't have your group, you don't have your people. I mean, first of all, did you, did you leave the church?
4
01:01:09
I did. Yeah. So let's see. I don't know. I had been graduated a couple of years and I was working as a, you know, like a administrative assistant for a window company. And, and I met my husband through mutual friends and he was, you know, he was part of the church. He had grown up in the UPC, but you know, there was always, I could tell right away, because even though I was in it, I always questioned, I was always questioning.
4
01:01:49
It's kind of, part of my nature too, is just to question everything and, and I was always like in it, but then I would backslide, you know, and I would not be in for a while. And then I would come back and backsliding. Or
2
01:02:06
Did you call it backsliding?
4
01:02:07
Yeah, they called it a, no, it was called, what do you
2
01:02:10
Mean? Like when you, when you went astray or something like
4
01:02:12
That? Yeah. Yeah. You would like go back to your old life ways, your old life. Yeah. Wow. Because you did that basically like stopped going to church. So you had periods of that. Oh yeah, for sure. Okay. Got it. And you know, there were, cause there was just a lot of, a lot of, a lot about it that I felt was very controlling, you know? I mean, because it is like, if you don't go to church, someone's going to call you and ask you where you were, you know, or, you know, it was just like serious business, your church life and your church, family is all encompassing and there really isn't room or time for anything else.
4
01:03:02
Was there any money? A lot of money? No, no, nothing like that. And then what did people do in terms of like jobs? Did they do all kinds of jobs. Cause you're saying it's all encompassing. Did you have to get a certain kind of job or? Oh no. No. I mean you, yeah. I mean, no, you, you know, you're living your life, but I'm saying it's like, you know, it's it's church on Wednesdays and then, you know, two services on Sunday, but then there's also all of these midweek things, like maybe you're doing two Bible studies, you know, on or you're involved in.
4
01:03:45
I don't know. You're just, there's always something I just felt like, you know, so there just isn't a lot of time for strain, right. Because you're just, it's, you know, you're always with the same people. But so anyway, when I met, when I met my husband, first of all, he, he was going to a different church, but within that same denomination and the church, you know, every church has its own kind of flavor and maybe rules too, you know, more strict or more lenient or whatever.
4
01:04:27
And I just felt like he was also like, he was an intellectual, he was okay with questioning things, you know? And so we sort of connected on that level. And even from the very beginning, I just felt like this is someone that I don't want to say, like we're gonna escape together. Like it wasn't that dramatic, please understand. But I just felt like this is someone that I'm like, I'm going to be safe with and that we're going to be going on this journey together.
4
01:05:12
Interesting. And that we, you know, I just had that deep sense from the very beginning. And we did, I mean, we did question a lot of things, but we, you know, we stayed in it for a long time, but yeah, we were living in, in Chicago, that's where he was born and raised. And when I was pregnant with my second child, we ended up moving to Minnesota. So back to my hometown and it was kind of there that we started to kind of break away. I mean, there was a church here that we could have gone to and we, and we did for a little while, but we just started to realize, you know, we're living two different lives and it's not, it's not who we really are or how we really believe anymore.
4
01:06:03
So yeah. So it's been a long journey.
2
01:06:06
Other people, I don't remember if other people cause like Heather Callington was an R year, she stayed all the way through. She graduated. Did other people leave the program that you know of?
4
01:06:17
Well, Anthony did. Yeah. Yeah. He and I left at the same time. Yeah. And he's
2
01:06:22
Still, I think he might still be a part of that church.
4
01:06:26
Yeah. Yeah. He pastors a church actually in the suburbs. Yeah. Okay.
2
01:06:31
So that, that does mean though, that there are people who stayed and presumably kept their faith, you know, and figured out a way to make it work at the theater school. Through, through graduation.
4
01:06:50
Yeah. Yeah. I suppose I think Heather really is the only one. Yeah.
2
01:06:56
Oh, because maybe what you're saying too is like, after you and Anthony left Anthony, by the way, so charismatic, it makes sense that he would have been kind of the leading the effort on this after he left, maybe it kind of died out at the theater school or do you know? I think
4
01:07:13
So. Wow.
1
01:07:16
I was there any, you know, it's from the little I know about that church that, and maybe I'm wrong. So please tell me, but like, it seems like it's theatrical in its own way. Is that, is that accurate? That there's like a theatrical vibe to it. So it's kind of interesting that you guys, that you were actors and then this church, it's not just like, you know, the, the Unitarian church or something, which is by the way I've, I've been to, and I fell asleep like six times, this is more like, right. It, it offered, it must have offered some kind of fix of the theatrical. Did it, or am I just totally?
4
01:07:57
Oh, for sure. I mean, it's a very emotional experience, you know, and that is part of that's part of what I think draws people in is there's, there's like an alter call you at the end of every service where it's designed to invoke a lot of emotion, you know? And if like, if everyone's not crying at the end, then it wasn't as successful, you know? And at some point,
1
01:08:32
Which by the way is like acting class, I'm just saying it's very similar to acting class. So a lot of times theater schools and the rehearsal processes are, if the people, if no one cries, did we really do good work that day? I'm just, there's a lot of similarities. So it makes sense to me that it's just like, it's sort of in the name of God versus in the name of the theater, but it's, it's a similar vibe, man. It's a similar, I've seen, you know, like from watching movies and there will be blood and things like that. Like watching, watching that kind of yeah. Emotional response. That's what we're all looking for, dude. Like that's the thing. So it happened to be in Schomburg with people, but it could be anywhere.
1
01:09:16
So I just, I really want to sort of emphasize and like say that like I, in the core of my being get how that I might have taken this path too, and that it is, it's just, I just, we're all looking for a home, like, okay, we're all looking for an emotional home where we can feel like we belong and this has happened to be in a church. But I mean, it's just, so anyway, that's what I want him to say. Cause I was like, oh, these are the there's similar. It's similar theatrical.
2
01:09:49
Yeah. And, and all, and we've talked to many times on this podcast about how people find theater school. Well, people go to college in general to, in part to find themselves, but there is something specific about theater school. And I think it might actually be for people who are going into acting. I don't know who I am. I don't know how I feel. Let me just go ahead and learn how to be somebody else, you know, for awhile, because maybe through, and it's a perfectly reasonable way to come to know yourself. Maybe you come to know yourself more through the, okay, well, I'm not that that's not who I am. It's not that I'm trying on all these different selves and you know, until I find the one that fits.
4
01:10:33
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think about too, you know, kind of like how you guys have talked about your are you're so raw at that point, right? Like I had been through two, two and a half years of that sort of stripping down process and now I'm so open to anything. And I think it was just the perfect scenario for me to get swept in, swept up into something like that, that, you know, touches on so many different senses. Right.
4
01:11:13
And especially that emotional component. I mean, it was just, yeah, but it's like, I was, I was hesitant honestly, to come on, like, and that's why I had not responded to your emails initially because I was like really humming and high and about whether or not I wanted to talk about it because it's like, although it was, it was, you know, it was sort of a bizarre experience. It was something that happened and it has shaped me and it, in a lot of ways it shaped me for the better, you know, I mean, it really helped me get my act together because I was out of control and, and I keep thinking too, even though there's always this, like what if in my head I'm like, yeah, but what did it prevent me also from experiencing?
4
01:12:07
Because if I had gone down that path and ended up in LA and I mean, I was just so naive and so willing to try anything that I'm just, I don't know. It sort of scares me even now when I think about how did I walk out of some of those situations I put myself in, you know, through my club years that I walked out like alive without major trauma or when you do it, a lot of drugs is that what was happening? A lot of drugs, a lot of guys, you know, I mean, it was just not a healthy situation
2
01:12:51
Becoming part of the church change any of the relationships with people that you had at the theater school.
4
01:12:59
Definitely. Yeah. You know, unfortunately, and, and now what, like looking back, I can understand it because I mean, jeez was like, it did seem like overnight, all of a sudden there was this like group of kids that was just all Jesus freaks, you know? But there were some people that I would've considered pretty close friends that just like cut us off. Like literally wouldn't speak to us. But then there were other people that, you know, just remained true friends and you know, didn't quite understand it, but we're like, whatever, you know, if it's good for you, then that's good.
4
01:13:45
You know, I think that's the one thing that I probably regret though, is that, you know, like people walk away from their college experience, like, like you too, you know, and you've known each other since you were 18. And because of the way that I left and, you know, the situation that I was in, I was, I really sort of like cut myself off from a lot of people. And so I just haven't had that same, like, you know, close people that I've known since college, or even been able to like rehash some of these things. That's, what's been so cool about listening to this podcast as a sort of putting pieces to the puzzle together, you know, that I haven't been able to talk about with anyone because I haven't kept in conversation with anybody, you know, over all those
2
01:14:39
Touch with anyone that was in the church. I mean, you said, you know, Anthony's is still the church. Do you keep in touch with any of like the Sarah Whitaker's or the,
4
01:14:50
You know, we've connected a little bit through social media, but, but not really. Not really, no.
2
01:14:58
I'm just sitting here trying to think about, I mean, you and I didn't have a friendship per se, but I, I w I guess the only person in that group that I had a friendship with was Anthony. I don't remember the timing. I wasn't a quasi relationship with him. I
4
01:15:19
Feel like I remember it
2
01:15:21
Must've been, maybe I, maybe I blame. But when I think about why I would, I was rejecting of people who had become part of that group, all the only thing I can come up with is fear. It's not like anybody started treating me differently. It's not like it was really no skin off my nose that people joined a church. I don't know why I had a problem with it. Actually. Maybe it just, I think it scared me. It seemed sudden, and I didn't really know if it was, I didn't know what kind of church it was.
2
01:16:02
I didn't know what it was asking people to do. So actually, you, you,
4
01:16:07
Well, I can't blame you for being, I mean, I would have been the same way, you know? I mean, and plus we were just, I think about some of the things that I did, you know, like, I remember we had this one assignment in some acting class where you were supposed to get up and it was just like, sort of like a comedic thing you were supposed to get up. And in one breath, like say all of the expletives that you could, you know, you know, like, like you see that in like a movie, you know, like a Chevy chase scene or something. And, and so I'm sitting there and I'm going, oh my gosh, what am I going to do?
4
01:16:47
You know? And I get up and I just, at the top of my lungs scream, I hate you devil What, you know, and actually looking back now, I'm just like, dang Noel. That was really bold of you. I can't imagine something like that now.
1
01:17:10
You know, the one thing
4
01:17:11
That, you know, but as another classmate, I'm sure they were just like, what?
1
01:17:17
Well, first of all, that's a dumb, dumb assignment. I just have to be honest like that. Okay. Let's just, but that's just my judgment about the assignment. But also then knowing that like, look, I think I remember I was away. I think I was not in school when this went down, I had taken a leave of absence, I think. Right. Cause it was right before
4
01:17:39
Ready with Nicholas cage. I remember that rumor
1
01:17:43
Mill. That's hilarious. You hear that's hilarious.
4
01:17:46
Yeah. You were like a unicorn. That's hilarious.
1
01:17:50
Meanwhile, I'm like drinking myself to jump over here. But anyway, that's funny,
4
01:17:55
Jen is a personal assistant to Nicholas cage. Like I was like the top, you know, like we couldn't believe
1
01:18:04
Meanwhile I was, I was miserable, but anyway, so all right. And we, we all were in some ways, but the other thing I'm realizing is that it does take a certain amount of chutzpah to be like, I am going to believe because I grew up in a family where it was like, religion is the opiate of the masses. Right. I was in this lefty sort of like religion is for dumb people, kind of a thing. Right. So I was afraid of that. And then to, for someone to say, no, we're taking a stand and we're taking it for God or Jesus or whatever it does take us. I mean, look, you get empowered when you're in a group, but it does in a, in a sort of liberal institution, even though it was like DePaul, which is a religious, but not really, but in a theater environment to say, actually, I'm not going to do the sex and drugs, actor thing.
1
01:18:49
I'm going to do the Jesus thing. It also takes a certain amount of balls. You know? Like, I don't know, it's weird and it's uncomfortable, but what I am looking back, I'm like, what I wish would have happened, which is how I spend a lot of my time thinking. But like at the theater schools, if the faculty had said, look, there's this thing going on, that we sense what is that? Its essence. And how can we support exploration in a way that maybe isn't limiting and what is happening here? Like, and Gina and I talked about this a lot is like, let's address the fucking elephant in the room. These people have found a spiritual path. Whether you think it's weird or let's look at what the need is there and why they're doing this instead of you think you should leave school.
1
01:19:34
Not that she said that, but I'm just saying like, you know, I always wish I wish I looked back and I think man, if an adult had just said, what is the essence of this spiritual revival and how can we talk about it and look at it and see if there's some way where we can include maybe not the religious part, but what's missing here. Hmm. Yeah. It is what it is.
4
01:19:59
Yeah. I mean, cause there certainly were a couple of times like town meetings like that, you know, around student issues.
2
01:20:11
I don't know town meetings. Yeah. Like right. When we'd all gather in the
4
01:20:17
Yeah, yeah.
1
01:20:21
Is what it is. I mean, I just look back and I think, wow, it could have been an opportunity to really bring us all together, but like
4
01:20:29
Whatever,
2
01:20:30
This is the thing that I've the tip I've been on recently about, you know, how, how theater has always prided itself on being so inclusive and it's completely not, you know, it it's its own called and, and if you didn't fit or conform to that, you know, you were on the outs. It makes me wonder since Heather did make it all the way through it makes me wonder, I don't really have a recollection of this. If she, I guess she must have performed for the showcase and everything without makeup and without her haircut. And yeah. So that's, that's interesting. So you said that the story of Noel is that you're not applying yourself,
4
01:21:19
Which is something
2
01:21:20
I, I can relate to a little bit. Do you, are you any further along and understanding what that's about than you once were like, what, why, why, why is that your problem?
4
01:21:34
Oh, and I wouldn't say it's my problem now, if anything, now I'm like, I'm the opposite where I need to just relax a bit, you know, and be more gentle with myself because I've taken on like, you know, the perfectionist persona. And I don't know if I feel like I'm, I do feel like some of that stays with me and maybe that's why I'm almost like a workaholic, you know, because I'm making up for lost time. Or I have this, I carry with me this, this idea in my head, like I'm in trouble.
4
01:22:15
You know, if I get an email or a call from someone I'm always like, Ugh, like my first instinct is to draw, like, what am I in? I'm in trouble, you know? And I'm never in trouble anymore. Like I'm always like getting so many kudos. Well, you knocked that out of the park. Like, but I just can't accept it for some reason. It's very strange.
1
01:22:38
4
01:23:01
I know
1
01:23:02
People. I mean, but anyway, so, but so you're, you're, you're applying yourself, but there is, it sounds like there is a part of you that feels like you're not doing enough or that you don't have it together or something. And I just want to say like, you're not alone in that. And you're also not alone in wondering here's the thing, everyone that we've talked to at the theater school graduated or not dropped out left, cut all say, what if about the other thing? Like I met someone like, no, I took the path that I have no questions about what I did and I'm glad I didn't get cut. And I everyone's like, what if I hadn't gone to theater school or whatever.
1
01:23:46
I think that is what I've learned from these 50 plus interviews is that like, we all have the, what if no, like it doesn't go away. And I think that's just part of, that's just the truth.
4
01:24:00
And then I just wonder too, if I was even, cause I think the people that are really successful at, at, at whether it's acting or whatever are just really in love with the craft of it. I mean, they find the personal satisfaction in the doing. And I think I was in the famous camp. I think I really just wanted to be famous. I, you know, I was like, I was good at it and I, I got, you know, good parts and I kept like moving up the ladder or whatever, but I don't think, I, I wasn't like, gosh, I just want to read all the scripts and like study these people and understand the psychology.
4
01:24:50
And I wasn't that person, I was just like rolling along like, yeah, man. Okay. If that's, if you like me great, okay, let's do that thing. But it wasn't like, wow, you know, this is my life, you know? So that's why I'm like, why do I hang onto this? What if, but it's like this stupid thing in my head where I'm like, I, I, I did all that training and it's just going for not, you know, I mean, that's, that's who I really am. You know, that that's who I started out being. And it's like, no, you know, actually you can evolve as a human being and you know, what you thought you were when you were 17, 18 is not who you are when you're 46, you know, it's okay to let go of, of those dreams.
4
01:25:40
I think it's okay because everyone's like, no, don't let go of your dreams. Like it's a, it's all possible. I mean, geez, you know, this Instagram culture where it's like, you know, it's, you know, sometimes you do have to let go. I think so. And just embrace the present moment and you know, just see what that has to deliver. You know, what that has to provide for you instead of holding onto the past, I guess.
2
01:26:05
Do you still have any type of a performing itch?
4
01:26:12
I do. And sometimes I do. And again, that's why sometimes I'm like, I wonder if it really is like a calling for me because I only want to do something if the situation and the context is like, perfect. You know, like I only want to do it if I really love that particular director or I love that show or it's like a meaty, juicy role. Like I just don't want to do anything. You know what I mean? Like I'm not doing every community theater play that's out there because it's like, you know, done that show a million times or I really can't stand that person or, you know, so it's like, it has to be the perfect storm for me to say.
4
01:27:04
Yeah. You know, but then I'm also just not, I don't create on my own either. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not, you know, some people are like starting little theater groups or like w a women's, you know, little ensemble and I'm like, I just don't, I don't pursue it. I don't know. So I don't know.
2
01:27:24
Well now, yeah. So maybe before you were applying yourself creatively, but not in other ways that are important for survival. And now you're totally applying yourself in all the ways that are important for your survival and for taking care of your family. And now you're wondering about, you know, the application you're applying yourself creatively, which, you know, I, I would, I would argue like that it's, that is not necessarily lose, use it or lose it. You're you, you have your creativity, you, you always have it. Sometimes you can't, sometimes you can't access it because of life.
2
01:28:06
And there may come a time in your life where you don't have to work as hard as you're working and you'll feel more free and open to.
4
01:28:16
Yeah. I mean, that's definitely part of it, like in this current season is that I just don't feel like I have anything more to give at the end of the day, you know, after working. And I do devote a lot of energy to my kids and my family, just making sure that they're in a really healthy place and that they're taking care of. So yeah, I just, that is definitely part of it is just my season of life right now. I did actually, I worked as an arts administrator for a lot of years here in Mankato, and that was somewhat, you know, fulfilling, I guess.
4
01:29:03
But again, I just found myself in this role where I kept questioning, am I really passionate about this? You know, like, do I really care about the arts that much? I don't know. You know, I kept telling myself that I did because that's who I used to be. So I must, you know, I must really care about this, but I'll tell you once the pandemic hit, I kind of went into a spiral and I just said, I can't do this anymore. I, I didn't really know how to lead an arts organization when everything was normal.
4
01:29:47
And I certainly don't feel qualified to lead an arts organization through a global pandemic. And the arts were like, basically, like, what is there? You know, like we can do anything. I dunno, it was so for my own mental health, I just had to get out of, I had to get out of the nonprofit sector and just get something that I wasn't in charge, you know, just like, tell me what to do and I'll do that thing. But I just, I just didn't have the capacity to, you know, to basically like forge some blazing new trail that hadn't been
1
01:30:29
Nobody's nobody really does. I mean, let me, let me,
4
01:30:33
And there has been so much transition during the, during the pandemic of people and, and that's why I haven't felt bad about it because I've seen so many people either say I'm retiring or I'm also like leaving the sector or whatever, for whatever reason, because it's just so stressful. It's so stressful
1
01:30:53
We have to wrap up. But I, I just want to know in terms of your spirituality and your journey, where are you still, is that still something that's or you do belong to a situation and organized situation? Where are you at? I'm the time situation? I like that. Yeah.
4
01:31:16
Well, it's so funny because because of the pandemic, we did sort of fall off the wagon of going to church every Sunday. Like I think a lot of people, and again, it's, it's sort of freed me and my husband up to exploring just, you know, other ways of worship or other ways of being it's still, my spiritual journey is still a huge part of my life. And I'm, you know, more excited and hungrier than ever, you know, the older I get. I don't know. I just, I, you know, I think it's like the big issues of like grappling with mortality.
4
01:31:57
And what does that mean? I mean, anyone that knows me knows that my favorite conversation is to talk about death and what me and you know, where do we go? And again, I just feel like we are all so connected and we're exactly where we need to be for the moment. And I'm just open to, to whatever you know, the universe is trying to tell me. I love that. I love that.
2
01:32:30
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina
We talk to Kate McKiernan
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina
1 (53s):
Yeah. Also Kelly McAdam's birthday and the same birthday. Same exact birthday. And Russell's is I think it's like on the 19th. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I love Virgos Libras and Virgos get along splendidly. Okay. Do you have any other Virgos in your life? My old boss used to be a Virgo that the one that I actually really liked at Lutheran social services and a lot of my work people have been Virgos just like coworkers and we get along really good. So Virgos to me are like, if Scorpios took their medication and Scorpios hate, I hate when, I mean like I've, I've gotten so much flack for like, I have such trouble with Scorpio women, such trouble.
1 (1m 45s):
I mean, doesn't everybody. Well, I don't know. Some people love them. A Scorpio. I Scorpio women are like, for me as if I would rather be trapped in an elevator with a monster than a Scorpio woman, you know what I'm saying? Like I just, my, my, my old roommate from way back was a Scorpio and she did some really crazy shit. Like the most aggressive shit I have ever seen in a human being in my life. And I was like, and then subsequently I've met Scorpio women who I'm like, oh, this is all the same.
1 (2m 30s):
You're all the same person. What is happening here? So like things that are just kryptonite to me and also things I need to work on, but like passive aggressiveness in terms of like dealing with a passive aggressive person, some people like don't take passive aggressive people. Seriously. They're able to be like, oh, that person's passive aggressive. I'm like, oh my God, they're gonna kill me. Yeah. Like I have to run for my life. And then their feedback is really hard for me to take. And yeah, I just, I have, I have a real fear and it's, and, and I remember I was in a play and we were talking about that and I said out loud, like, oh my God, I have not thinking someone.
1 (3m 17s):
Who's probably a Scorpio. I feel like I have such problem with Scorpio women. And this Scorpio woman goes, what's your problem? And I was like, oh, you're a Scorpio woman. This is, and I want it to be like, this is my problem. But I was just like, oh, I just, I really find you terrifying. She was like, what? Why? And I was like, well, there's the tone. That's the tone. That's what I'm talking about. So anyway, Virgos, not that. So Virgos have this for me. The same kind of, they're more okay. Like Scorpios, the control issue seems so great. And Ruggles, the control issue. They, in my, in my experience, they use the control issue to get organized rather than terrorize other people.
1 (4m 3s):
Right. So wait, was your mother? No, they were all my mom and dad were Aquarians and like, just know my mother might know, you would think my mother, she was maybe her rising or her moon was Scorpio because she was so Scorpio. She was not, they were neither of that. My dad was more of an Aquarian. But in any case, it's your birthday week? It's Virgo. It's Virgo season. It's my birthday week. The big four. Sick. Are you, are you? I always, I thought I've been for six. So there you go. What are you, are you going to do something, anything, a party like dinner with your family.
1 (4m 43s):
I'm going to do a party, but I'm sure we'll have dinner or something. I mean, Friday's a nice day and actually Aaron's taking the day off, so that'll be good. So we'll do something. I was going to ask you, how did your kiddos self-tape go? Oh, it went just fine. Yeah. Thank you for your help with that. Yeah. For those of you listening. Yeah. I called boss because we had to do a self-tape with no dialogue and not only no dialogue, he was supposed to be in a fist fight with a bunch of people. It just seems like really? I mean, my thing is like, why you could either just ask for a full body slate at which they did too, or have him read something else.
1 (5m 27s):
That's not for the part. I just don't understand. Like, everybody looks stupid punching the air. It's not, it you're so right. And I think all that is needed there. And this is just like my, you know, soap box about the industry. All that's needed is a little extra attention to detail. One sentence in there. Please give us a shot of facial reactions as if this person was watching or afraid or in a fight watching a fist fight. Because that's really what they're looking for is to, you said it a full body slate to see what their body looks like and their facial reactions. I mean, all that's needed is a sentence, like all that.
1 (6m 10s):
And I feel like that a lot about, I feel like I'm not an actor anymore, which is a whole nother, which is okay. But like, when I cause now talking about it, I'm like, I, I haven't had an audition a really long time, but like, I just, it's true. You have auditions all the time. Wow. I mean, you've had you had an audition couple of weeks ago, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I guess in my head, I sort of have like, I mean, when I talk to other actors, they're like, since the pandemic I've had too much. Oh, okay. Yeah. No, that's not my experience. Okay. So good perspective. Good perspective. But like, I, I, when I listened to, when I think about acting and casting and stuff like that, now I'm like, okay, like how can we make it easier for the actors?
1 (6m 54s):
And how can we, so when you and I are writing something that gets produced or when I'm doing something else, like, I don't know, writing in a writer's room or something, it's like, how can we make people's jobs easier and not harder and more, you know, because I guess what if you make anybody's job easier, everybody's job is easier, I think is so fundamentally true that we are just missing. And I think it's, end-stage capitalism again of like, no, no, no, no, no. Actually, if you, if, if you help one person, the whole, the whole team thrives, this is not what capitalism is, is based on.
1 (7m 35s):
So, so yeah. And, and miles was talking about, you know, my husband was talking about the like elections and things like that. And I, and, and global, we were talking about a global warming crisis. And I just said, you know, like, it always comes down to like, we tried, like some of us tried and some of us are trapped, but like humans on planet earth, especially in the west, gave it a shot. And maybe, maybe the, you know, the planet is kicking us off and we're how long can you stick around in a place and treat it so poorly on so many levels before you're kicked out of the club, you know, like we're getting kicked out of the club here. So, yeah.
1 (8m 14s):
Yeah. And this is the part of the whole Handmaid's tale story, which is so wild to think about because the premise, the conceit that they've adopted in the movie, which is not in the book or the television show, which is not in the book, is that all of this was done in part, in an effort to heal the planet. Like they did actually successfully reverse the impacts of climate change, at least from the Gilliad. Right. But at what cost, and I hope it's not trying to say, I hope it's trying to make that complicated and not say, Hey, if you want the climate to get better, everybody has to go into sexual servitude.
1 (9m 3s):
I don't think they're trying to say that, but I don't either, but it ends up feeling like that. It ends up feeling like in order for us pigs to stop behaving the way we're behaving, we'd have to do something. So outside of our comfort zone, which it's true. I mean, let's just hope it's not something that's also dehumanizing. Yeah. Let's hope it's electric vehicles across the board rather than sexual slavery. Yeah. Do you ever read, or do you follow on Twitter? Like any of the positive news accounts? No. I know. However, I have been watching a tremendous amount of dog rescue stories.
1 (9m 50s):
Like it really helps me well, now that I have a dog and I buy dog products, you know, the, the, the, the social media is no all that. So they send me all these stories and I really take comfort in the, and this was the same way actually, when my mom was dying, same thing of like the radical stories of change and, and healing that can occur in this happens to be within dogs. Cause that's what they're sending me videos of. But like, I love the idea of taking something that seems, what is it irredeemable? Or like, like you cannot save unsaveable and then it becomes this amazing creature.
1 (10m 31s):
So I find those really real, like the dog on the side of the road that you're like, oh, that dog is gonna die and gonna bite your face off in the process. And with patience and love that dog, what they don't show you is the countless sleepless nights and the craziness that they endure, the, the, the trainers and owners, but the dog becomes a very, very loving part of their pack, you know? So I've been watching that, but I, what are you talking about? News story? Like, there's feel good. Oh yeah. You can just, yeah. Yeah. You can follow, like, when they say this team of scientists have figured out how to, re-engineer a type of, what's otherwise a naturally occurring bacteria that eats carbon dioxide, that kind of stuff.
1 (11m 18s):
But actually, since you brought up the whole thing about the traumatized dog, I will just say that that speaks to the fact that dogs like people have neural plasticity. And so yes, you can be extremely abused and recover, but it's, it's such a concerted effort. It's it's, it takes no less than 100% of probably multiple people's time, love, caring, and attention, because it's just a learned, I mean, it's just a response to a learned, right? I mean, it's just a response to a habitual thing that has happened. So this the case of a dog, every time a human approaches me something as bad as it's going to happen, if that happened 1 million times and it would have to be 2 million, 2 million times that that the opposite happens.
1 (12m 10s):
Absolutely. It just comes down to being something that's yet more work, but it's really good news for humans that, that, you know, God, yeah. Even if you came from an extremely traumatized upbringing or experienced PTSD from combat or from whatever you it's terrible and you can recover, recover from it. And I think that's, yeah, that gives me a lot of hope for also for like, disorders that like, you treated like bipolar, you know what I mean? Borderline personality and by, but mostly I'm thinking personality disorders where they're like, there's no coming back from this was once the thought or people are like, they're lost causes.
1 (12m 50s):
And I think we need, I need any way stories now of like, oh yeah, we thought this was a lost cause. And, and actually it wasn't a lost cause, which is like crazy. Yes. Because isn't that at the core of when we, when we're worried about at this age, when we're worried that something is too late, that's what we're really saying is like, it's a lost cause there's no point in even trying because the window of opportunity has closed. First of all, I don't know why we think we know what the window of opportunity is. We could get hit by a bus tomorrow, you know, like there's really, no, it's not a good way to make decisions based on like, okay, well, if I'm 46, you know, the odds of me doing X, Y, and Z are slim.
1 (13m 43s):
So I just won't do it. That's not a good way to make it a no, it's really not. And, and, and it's all relative, you know, like, so I think that's why we need those stories of like that person that goes back to school at 78 and the person that, you know, those are important. And I, I think that's why I doom and gloom all the time is just so to me, it's just so attractive. Like, I, there are people that are just like the doom and gloom all the time that I cannot, it's just, yeah. Like you said, like, what is the point? What would then, what is the point then? What is the point? You know, and I, I think that there's always, there's always gotta be a glimmer of hope, you know?
1 (14m 28s):
But yeah. So his hope, there's always hope. There's hope. And I am also very actively this year. I think for the first time taking a real proactive approach to staving on tea staving off seasonal, effective disorder really plagues me. Yeah. Just making sure to get in my 30 minutes of exercise, trying to talk to myself about it. Like, cause I think the thing that has happened to me in the past is I don't want it to happen. I don't want it to happen. So I tell myself maybe it won't happen this year and then I feel completely underwater. And then when you're depressed is not a time where you can necessarily do a great job of helping yourself out of your depression.
1 (15m 12s):
It's much easier if you cope ahead or, you know, if you plan for these things, so whatever drinking my water, I bought this little, these little packets of I, you know what I hate, I love and hate vegetables. I really try to eat a lot of vegetables. Sometimes. I just feel like I'm a cow chewing its head. So I got these little, I don't know if it works. I'd love to hear from anybody who has a point of view about this, these little packets, like you put this little packet into your water and it's like, your it's like your greens is the equivalent of your greens. Nutrients. I say, try it. I mean, what, what is, I mean, I am making life easier in terms of that kind of stuff and it's not going to hurt and just do it.
1 (15m 55s):
Yeah. And the other thing is, you know, did I tell you I went and got all my labs done. Blood is perfect, except I am low on vitamin D. So, so have you had your labs done lately? No. And actually vitamin D that's the thing you have to be careful of. Yeah. So I think that part of my, I had been, I mean, look, I had a new dog and all this and I have, I had family in town that was like a tornado, but I also think that my fatigue, some of it was caused. I'm so quick to think that my stuff is emotional. Like so quick that it's your fault, my fault. I'm doing something wrong. I don't have boundaries. I'm a people pleaser. Like that's where my defaults, like that is where I go.
1 (16m 36s):
And I'm like, well, okay. But there's also this whole plethora of internal shit that's going on in our bodies that we have no control. Even if, you know, like I'm like taking really good care of my health, but my vitamin D is low and I'm out in the sun all the time, slathered in sunscreen. But I'm out in the sun. It's still low because of menopause. And because of life, I had to start taking an extra thousand mil, like a little pill a day. And she was like, this just happens to women as we get older. And I'm like, oh, that never would have crossed my mind. I would have thought I'm fatigued because I'm stiff. I'm not taking care of myself in some way. She's like stop. And you, you said something that really helped me, which was one of my fruit, my heart thing was first diagnosed. You're like a lot of this is genetic.
1 (17m 18s):
And I was like, oh my God, I am. So I am. So I, and I think this is a bootstrap SU you know, a meritocracy meritocracy, but that idea of like, no, no, it's not your levels in your body. It's something you're doing wrong. So for default in your character, right. And my doctor, and you have said like, okay, your dad and mom had like so many problems physically because they were human. And because they didn't take care of themselves because of their genetics, I never knew. And teeth are huge part of that, like teeth. And we play so much emphasis right on how we look and teeth in this, in our society, not in Britain, by the way, if you watch any of their television shows, but in any, especially their reality shows, I'm like, oh no, there needs to be reality show just about the fluoride problem.
1 (18m 11s):
Yeah. Right. There's no, there's no fluoride in their water. Yeah. It's not their fault. But man, I watched some British shows like crime shows and I'm like, oh, the true crime here is your teeth, my friend. But anyway, so, so, so yeah, so teeth and we, a lot of people have so much shame about their teeth, right? It's like my dentist was saying, it's like a 90% genetic with teeth and you can take the best care of your teeth and that shit could still fall out. And it's because your fucking parents and their parents' parents and their had shitty teeth. And I'm like, oh my God, we need to instill the, and also it's only been like one, maybe two generations that we've had this obsession with like perfect straight white teeth.
1 (19m 3s):
We need to let that go. We need to let that go. Let me run this by Talking about making assumptions that everything is your fault or that you're the cause of everything bad. I have a cute little story. So I listen to Sue Ollier's podcast, the strongly worded podcast, shout out Sue and Johnny, her co-host was Johnny. So she was telling the story, actually, she was only telling the story. She was just making like a casual reference. She said to him, you know, that podcast, I listened to blah, blah, blah.
1 (19m 47s):
I hate, I, I, I listened to it, but I hate listened to it because these ladies are talking and talking and they think they're doing this, you know, service to everybody, but they're not. And they're, and they're just these privileged and I'm listening to, oh my God, she's talking about us. That's hilarious. So I went through a whole thing. I felt embarrassed and angry and humil. I went through just this complete rollercoaster of emotions. I mean, in the 10 minutes that I'm sitting in my car, like write a memoir. Right. I thought I should call you.
1 (20m 28s):
And then I went, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. First of all, the chances that this is about me as if we're the only people, two women who have a podcast, right. As if we're the only one that she listens to. That's two as if, as if, as if, and I said, you know, I, I think the thing to do here is really to check the facts. Cause there was, I went, I tried to figure out what she was talking about from what she was saying, but I couldn't get the info. So I just messaged her on Facebook. And I was like, Hey, this is weird, but blah, blah, blah. And she goes, oh my God, did you think w she goes, did you really think I was talking about, you turns out she was talking about this podcast where people are talking about, it sounds like a little bit of a Gwyneth Paltrow thing.
1 (21m 23s):
Like, all you need is just $4,000 multivitamin and you'll be fine. And I just, it was progress because usually I don't check the facts used to be progress that I would even like, say it out loud. I used to just have this entire shame party just inside of myself and then be upset and act out. And then nobody could, you know, nobody who loves me know why I stopped doing that awhile ago. And I just recently started checking the facts and I recommend it highly because usually it's not about you. No, no. This is a great, great, great, great reminder.
1 (22m 3s):
I, I need this so much in my life of check the facts. Also take it to the nth degree, right. For me. And you've said this like, and then what, and then what on the podcast get to the truth. It's like, if someone is, and then what someone's mad at me, and then what I am ashamed and then what I feel nothing. And then what I don't exist. Okay. So your dad basically, or you don't exist or you're not important. You're not. So for me, that's where I go. Someone's mad at me. It's the end of the world. I have to get way better, way better at. And I think most, a lot of us do, I don't know at being okay if people don't like what we say, how I say it.
1 (22m 53s):
And, and if they really don't and they come to me with it, and then we can have a conversation about it. But if they don't come to me with it and I'm they making up that they hate me or like one, it's probably not about me, but even if it is about me, like, that's the thing, like, I'm going to, we're going to have meetings. I'm going to have meetings with people that are going to love me. I'm going to have a meeting with someone who's going to be like, not for me. She's a blankety blank. They can say anything, a space salient, a garbage truck. They can say anything. I gotta be able to carry on and soldier on and say, that doesn't mean that my w my work isn't good. That doesn't mean that I'm not good. That is the crux of my whole journey is like, and it's so obvious.
1 (23m 37s):
It's like, my mom would literally say to us, you don't exist to me. She would say that when she was mad at us. Oh yeah. When I would try, when my mom was mad at me, I would try to talk to her. And I'm talking, I'm like 10 years old. And I would be like, Hey, I'm sorry. I lost my jacket. Right. My J crew jacket that she spent, and it was a lot of money. I'm not saying it wasn't a lot of money, but I lost it. And I couldn't find it. And blah, blah, blah. And I would say, I'm so sorry that I lost my jacket. And she would say, I don't want to talk to you. You don't exist to me right now at 10. So that's where this comes from. It's not about complete, direct, cause it's not even like a euphemism, like she literally said, yeah, I literally said you don't exist.
1 (24m 17s):
And so, and so that is where I go immediately. And even if, even if someone says to me, you don't exist to me, which they, if they said, now I'd be like, oh, you're psychotic. But you know what I mean? Like, I'd be like, okay. But even if they say that, I have to be like, well, that's okay because I exist to me and I'm going to keep doing my thing. That's where I'm not there yet. But I think checking the facts is part of that process and saying, all right, all right, before you go there, let's check the facts. Okay. This person, they passed on your script. They don't want to work with you. They didn't hire you. You didn't pick you for the job. They don't want to be your friend. You know, they're not following the rules that you want them to follow.
1 (25m 0s):
Whatever it is. I gotta be. Okay. At least after 10 minutes, maybe it takes a half an hour. Maybe it takes a day to soldier on and do the thing that I need to do. Regardless of if someone publicly, like, let's say she did publicly shame us without saying our names, let's say someone does it. Like, it just goes online is like, this is a piece of shit that's going to happen. Probably if we put yourself out there. Right. Abs I mean, actually that's a sign that you're getting somewhere is that people who literally have no connection to you whatsoever listening to your, and so to see it, like that is a very adult sort of integrated way to see it.
1 (25m 42s):
And it's like, how can I get there? You know, to that place of, well, at least they're talking about us. At least you're talking about me. That's a good thing there. You know, it's really a mature, it's a mature point to get to versus I want to fix that. So they like it. Yeah. I mean, and you could just spin your wheels forever, trying to run around and convince everybody why they shouldn't eat you or why they should think you're great. It doesn't work. It's a waste of your time and it makes you feel bad. I worked it. Like I said, this to the manifesto. It would have worked.
1 (26m 22s):
If people pleasing worked, we'd be famous and rich and happy and thin and beautiful. And, and at peace in that world, in that world, it doesn't, I'm here to say, I've tried it my whole life, 45 years, almost 46. I can't tell you that. I can tell you that I've ever, ever, ever. When I come from a place of, please like me, please pick me. Please choose me out of desperation. The shit doesn't work. I wish it did. Ladies and gentlemen, you've done the research and your conclusion and your hypothesis that it would work, was wrong.
1 (27m 3s):
It's failed miserably. I can tell you more than I know anything on this planet. I know that that, that people pleasing and trying to fix managing control other people's reactions to me and my work and my life. And it's an absolute zero. And even when you think it works, it works temporarily. And the people never trust you because you're just doing it to get them to like you. Right? Exactly. Which people inherently don't have respect for it. In fact, it doesn't work so much that I'll tell you that the inverse is true. It better actually works. When you don't care about what anybody thinks to the point that your associate, that I'm listening to the cause Elizabeth Holmes they're in us trials.
1 (27m 49s):
You turned me on to that little thing. That is fantastic. Yes. Yes. So the podcast called the dropout that I listened to whatever it was like three years ago. I think when it came out, there are now publishing new episodes because of the trial and this bitch. I mean, she just waltzes around San Francisco. She's married. She married a rich guy. There's this great story in the podcast of a guy who used to work in the company, like a pretty high up guy who he and his entire family were completely devastated by the exposing of, of her and the company.
1 (28m 31s):
And he lost that. He, he had shares and he lost everything, whatever. And he's sitting out to dinner with his wife and he notices somebody looking at him and he looks up and it's her. And she, she didn't stand out to him at first because she wasn't wearing her black turtleneck and she was wearing like a hoodie or whatever. Anyway, she comes over just as casual as can be and says, Hey, oh my God, it's so great to see you. Hey, listen, I'd love to have coffee with you. I'd love for you guys to be back in my life. And the sky says, I'm so flabbergasted. You know, like, I don't know what to say. I could barely manage to just basically give her no response to, you know, do you want to have coffee with me?
1 (29m 13s):
And he just couldn't believe like to him, he's still sitting in the, actually in the shame and the devastation and for this other person to act like nothing happened. I mean, for the devastation, I mean, she's the evil chief evil force. And she just waltzes in and says, Hey, hi, she's not shameful. She's not hiding. She's not running screaming from the bar, hiding from him. She fucking approaches her. What is she? Like, cuts it off at the past. She's like, oh, you're going to, you think you're going to shame me? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going to just waltz in and swoop in and take you off guard.
1 (29m 55s):
And what in the hell and worse, she has no idea that anybody could feel any shame about this because she doesn't feel any shame about anything because she's a true sociopath. And this is why she got as far as she did. And frankly, this is why she will probably not go to jail, go to jail and serve a short sentence, go to jail and write a book and become a millionaire anyway. Like it's just, it's it never, it's so fascinating. I think part of why we love Colts and stuff is we really can't relate to the person that you have to be to make a cult work. Like it's, it's, it's just like a specimen. And we might as well be at the circus watching a specimen of like unbridled, lack of shame.
1 (30m 42s):
I think that that's yes, for me, that is the, yes, that is the opposite, right. Of who I am and how I grew up. And it is so tantalizing to think that that's possible. And it's like, they're doing on for me, I'll speak for myself. Like these cult leaders are doing with which a part of me wishes I could do. Right. Which is say, I'm going to do what I want to do. You're all going to follow me because I'm so curious Matic. And I'm going to feel no shame about anything and just fucking live my life and be rich. And there's a part of me that thinks that's so awesome. Now, of course, there's a part of me that knows that that's so horrific to other people, but we've swung in such the other.
1 (31m 26s):
I'll say for myself, I've swung in such the other people pleasing direction at times that it feels like freedom to run a call like a, not give a shit and tell people, no, no, no, this is what we're going to do. You're going to do this. I get to wear what I want. Look what I want. I'm going to, she changed her voice. I'm going to change my voice. And you're still going to buy into me. What in the fuck? So let's do a thought experiment. What? Okay, so the problem with most sociopath's, I mean, the ones that we hear about the notorious ones, they kill people. If they kill people and they ruin people's lives in the cases of like the Ted Bundy's of the world, it's because they experienced such severe trauma.
1 (32m 6s):
I don't think that was Elizabeth Holmes case. I think her case may, it may have been that she was kind of shunned socially and she was really smart. And her parents really gave her this idea that she could be anything she wanted to be. So, so she had like some, some actually pretty good protective factors. What would it take or what would it look like if you could know at birth at somebody has this sociopathy gene and how could you as caregivers, you know, harness it for some, because the, the thing that's really valuable is the charisma. I mean, we, as a society, do look to leaders of all stripes to tell us what to do.
1 (32m 54s):
And in fact, if in, in any given situation where there is no leader, we're a natural leader. Doesn't emerge. It makes people very anxious. So we have to always find a leader. We have to always find somebody to look toward. And there probably are people who exist in this world who are that? They're the good sociopath, like they're there because they don't care about what other people think of them. They're able to achieve a lot in the, they achieve something that's really helpful for society. But isn't that interesting to think about what would it, what could imagine, what good we could do? I mean, you'd get the, the more of the, I would say, like, you know, it's interesting.
1 (33m 36s):
Cause I, I keep thinking of these examples, like Martin Luther king Jr. Did it, and then you find out all, they beat their wives. I don't know if he did, but there's like rumor, you know, I cheated, he cheated a letter and then, then Picasso, same thing. Or like, I just mean, and the Dalai Lama apparently is, can be a giant asshole. I mean, cause he's human. Right. That's the problem is that they're also human. But if you could harness the yes, the drive to lead, I mean, I guess that's why they create all these fucking schools Waldorf than fucking whatever Steiner Rudolph, you know, like to try to get kids to harness that. It's just that I think as humans, it's, we're always going to live also in opposite land.
1 (34m 20s):
Right. So it's like you have this charismatic leader, they also happen to be a womanizer or whatever. I, I don't know. Yeah. It's a great, we need to go to camp camp when we're young and for a long time and just be like, okay, like leaders, you know, like people look to people at JFK, June, you know, not junior JFK as a leader, but he was also kind of, you know, such a narcissist. And so, so it's like, what in the hell? What in the hell? Well, I'll tell you something the way that science has progressed in terms of DNA sequencing. It's not long before.
1 (35m 0s):
If you want to, you can know this about your child in utero and that will breed some interesting. It really will. It will. It will. And no like, yeah, if you, if your child is more genetically predisposed to being a sociopath or even a psychopath, I mean, what do you do and where do they go to school and what kind of meds do they take? And is that, is that something we want to start regulating really young? And I don't know, man, I don't know, but you're right. I think we're gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna have be breed some real interesting shit. Yes. Real interesting shit.
0 (35m 37s):
Well,
2 (35m 42s):
Today on the podcast we're talking with Kate McKiernan. Kate is someone who went to the theater school at DePaul university with us. And we had a delightful time catching up with her. Kate is part of the Andrew CLIs and the lion final performance story. If you follow along with the podcast, you know this story and she's the missing piece, she's hilarious. She's a Reverend and she's a blast. So please enjoy our conversation with Kate McKinnon,
3 (36m 10s):
Such a weird guy.
1 (36m 11s):
Every time it comes out, we've heard it from, you'll be like the sixth person's perspective, which is cool
3 (36m 20s):
To get. I haven't heard it from other people too.
1 (36m 23s):
It's really interesting because we heard this from Stephanie who, the role that you had from pause, obviously from like at least one person who was on crew, who remembers that as a magical, you know, the person who brought it up, hadn't listened to any of our podcasts. It was just like, oh, and this one time was on crew and this crazy thing happened and we will get it. Congratulations. You survived theater school. No, you really did. And I love, I mean, obviously our listeners won't see this, but your background, like your house where you live, looks so cool.
3 (37m 7s):
I it's, it's curated so that everything cool is in like one vision spot.
1 (37m 13s):
It looks like you live in this pool, like crazy, like artists, studio, like huge lofty artists
3 (37m 22s):
Always put an easel behind you. It makes you look
1 (37m 30s):
Okay. Was it when you decided to go to a conservatory? Was that something that you, that you did intentionally? I mean, many of our guests kind of happened into a theater school experience. Some but some of some people had in mind from, from a young age, what about you?
3 (37m 50s):
Well, I was obsessed with going to a conservatory, but I had zero experience. I'd never taken an acting class. I'd never, you know, like I had nothing to base this obsession except for maybe episodes of
1 (38m 9s):
Jesse. Jesse was my jam. I was in love. Yeah.
3 (38m 12s):
Oh man, the keyboard is brutal, so I'm a nerd, but yeah, like I, I don't know. I, so I had to convince my parents that this was even a thing. And then like, and my mother was completely like, I don't, I think you should go to law school. And I was like, I feel like it's early for that. Yeah, exactly. My dad on the other hand, like kind of surprised me and had bought, bought me a ticket with him to Chicago for the big audition scenario. And I was like, oh my, oh, oh, okay. So I guess I should probably learn them all a log.
3 (38m 57s):
So yeah. So like I, like my dad kind of was like my secret, you know?
1 (39m 3s):
And there's a, there's a picture of you and him, right. That you posted from a post theater school show on Facebook. That's really quite beautiful. I hope you've sent it to us. Please send it to us if you have Really beautiful. Is your father still around? Yeah,
3 (39m 20s):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But yeah. It's like he, he was, I didn't believe I could do it. And I mom got on board, you know, it's just in case she's listening
1 (39m 36s):
In from Kate, where did you have to travel from, to go
3 (39m 38s):
To Colorado Springs, Colorado. So nobody went to theater school from Colorado Springs, Colorado,
1 (39m 47s):
But little, literally fame. But there had to be some origin story for your obsession. Was it fame or was there something else that made you want to act?
3 (39m 57s):
I had been in, I had been doing all of the shows in schools since the get like in third grade there was a talent show. And I said that I wanted to be the MC because I had more stage time. Like, so like I did forensics competitive speaking in high school, which the theater school did not enjoy competitiveness. Like everybody, because I talked about forensics a lot, the professors were kind of had it in their mind. Well, they had it in their mind that I was like that I was doing acting as like a competitive sports.
3 (40m 41s):
And they're like, and, and, and I'm sure that they probably saw something that I didn't, but I was like, I don't think I'm doing that.
1 (40m 50s):
But also there's like, like the, what I've noticed is that a lot of our guests have done forensics and it really propelled them to want to go to the theater school. And my understanding is that the conservatory teachers think that forensics is like less than in a way, not all of them, but like some, so like they have a whole like, well that was high school speech team. This is the big leagues. And you're like, okay. But yeah, so
3 (41m 21s):
I think that, but I think that forensics opened up my eyes to a national thing. You know what I mean? Like I'm like, oh, there's other people that like to do what I do. And so I bet you there's a school. So, but at the same time, we're also like if you're doing the humorous interp, you're doing the
1 (41m 51s):
I bet it opened up your eyes. Like I think a lot of people would not end up at DePaul theater school if they didn't do forensics. And so they actually should be real grateful for forensics and I, I should have done for like, I, when I hear people talk about forensics, I'm, I'm so longing. I should've participated. Cause it sounds like it was really fun for you.
3 (42m 12s):
Well, yeah, absolutely. And there's like part of me that's like, should I join Toastmasters as a 47 year old woman
1 (42m 20s):
Teach Toastmasters?
3 (42m 22s):
Right. I loved that whole scenario. I loved just like, like walking in and doing the stuff like winning the awards. So, which is exactly what the professors hated. So
1 (42m 38s):
It has been a one, a 180 that your experience of doing performance from that versus day one, lay on the floor and LOL your tongue around in your mouth.
3 (42m 52s):
I had no idea what I was in for. I had zero. I had gotten a coach for my audition. So like one of the local actors from the fine arts center or whatever helped me like put together Ella MAs and Arie. And my name is Alice, right? So like, like these old, old, like kind of cliche monologues. And, and so I show up at like, first of all, I get accepted, which is out of like out of left field. And, and I auditioned for like eight schools and applied to like 12 because that's me.
3 (43m 33s):
And so I got accepted and I was like, this is ridiculous. Nobody from air academy, high school has gone to theater conservatory ever. And so, and I showed up and I, I mean, like the first day I was attacked by saffron hanky and like, and she's just like such an artist. And I'm like, oh, I might've made a fear.
1 (44m 1s):
Well, wait, did we do, did you get it? Like, how did you choose DePaul?
3 (44m 6s):
I chose DePaul because two of my friends went to north central and Northwestern. So I was like, so I have people in Neighborville and Evanston, which turns out like, is far when, like you're 18 in Lincoln park in 1993 to whatever. So, so yeah, the like, but it was, I was like, they went to Chicago. So Chicago.
1 (44m 35s):
Yeah. That was smart. Yeah. That was smart. Like, I think, you know, you had,
3 (44m 38s):
Yeah. And if DACA was, was out in the boonies and I didn't want to be in the boonies, I wanted to be in a city and Pepperdine, like was another option. And, and part of me is like, I really missed the boat on Pepperdine
1 (44m 57s):
Because of LA,
3 (44m 58s):
Because I ended up in LA anyway. And like, it's, it's kind of like, and it was more like, it wasn't a conservatory, so it was much more like, which I could've maybe used.
1 (45m 11s):
I always say I had no idea where Afghanistan was when I graduated college. Like I could tell you where my soft palate could take me. But if you asked me about the middle east, you know, conflict, I'd be like middle east, Illinois.
3 (45m 26s):
I can buy base through the middle of my eyes.
1 (45m 30s):
If you asked me about the Israeli Palestinian conflict, we're in real trouble. So anyway,
3 (45m 36s):
No for sure, like real life, but also like also, like I could have worked and auditioned in LA and been going to school. You know what I mean? Like all of those things that I just anyway has not taken, but, but Chicago was this big city and this urban environment. And I was like, this is absolutely what I want to do. But did you do
1 (46m 0s):
12 auditions?
3 (46m 2s):
I did. Let's see six. I did. Yeah. I walked on to Carnegie Mellon. I did SMU. I did.
1 (46m 10s):
Oh my God. You didn't just apply to school schools. You auditioned for Covering melon intense, right?
3 (46m 18s):
Oh, for sure. Oh my God. It was like jumping through hoops and I didn't get into Carnegie Mellon because I think halfway through, I was just like exhausted and well was the first one to accept me too. So I was like,
1 (46m 32s):
And did you do your same two monologues for all the, all the places? Okay.
3 (46m 38s):
Yeah. I did some, I did a Shakespeare monologue and I, like, I had other stuff in my tool kit.
1 (46m 45s):
That was smart. You know, the smartest people I know have had more than two monologues. I did not. And so when art at Harvard asked me, do you have another something else we could see? I literally said no, but I could tell him to tell you some jokes. It did not. I did not get in there. Anyway. The point is you were prepared. You had it.
3 (47m 7s):
I was really, I was, I think possibly I've never been prepared for that.
1 (47m 13s):
You said that you that's, you, you applied to 12 schools that made me think that your misses go getter. Like we're always really prepared. Always.
3 (47m 23s):
No, I'm just, I'm just always building the next net. So I'm always,
1 (47m 30s):
There's, there's the backup plan and then the backup to the back to the backup plan. But, but it turns out that none of those work, so I don't recommend that as a lifestyle. Oh, say more about that. What do you mean?
3 (47m 45s):
Well, because like, I like the things, the big things that happen to you, you could never expect in your entire life, you know what I mean? Or the big things that you were a part of or the big things that, you know, like that they're going to come from behind and hit you in the back of the head. There there's no like planning,
1 (48m 4s):
I don't care. You can't really be prepared for a lot of the big stuff, but it was, you say you are a risk taker.
3 (48m 11s):
I think that, I think that I try to do the brave thing. You know what I mean? Like, I think that like, if I, if I were to think about it in my mind of like, let's take this risk, I probably be, Ooh, I don't think so. But Ooh, I'm going to be brave and do that.
1 (48m 32s):
I think of you. I, for some reason, my first thought is that you're like all about Shakespeare. Did I make that up? Or,
3 (48m 41s):
Oh no. Well, I mean, I was the cause I went to Shakespeare and company. One of you went to Shakespeare and company. Yeah. So, so like, so I was so Christine and thank God. Yeah. So I, and I know that like people have vastly differing opinions on Christine, but I was very lost at theater school. Like I never got cast correctly or not correctly. I never got cast. And like, I just felt like I didn't know where I was and I didn't know how to even like cast myself in, I couldn't figure out what I even wanted.
3 (49m 20s):
And, and I just got a wild hair and I asked Christine about, about Shakespeare company. And I went between my third and fourth year. And I think, God, I mean, it saved me from hating acting. Cause I just felt like a failure constantly. And so, but I went to Shakespeare and company and they're like, you are brilliant.
1 (49m 47s):
You do there. What shows did you do there?
3 (49m 49s):
So I only did the intensive, I, cause I didn't have enough money to stay. So I like, and like Christine had wheedled me into some sort of like financial aid deal. And so like, I, I like w I drove out there and like, it was, it was crazy. Yeah. Joseph drove me to Shakespeare and company and then I like was there for four weeks and you know, it's intense, the intensity intense. And like we had a running tally on the wall of who, like who had made it the longest amount of hours without crying.
3 (50m 31s):
But, but yeah, like, and then I ended up kind of hitching a ride with one of the other women that was with me back to Columbus and then like caught a train. Like I, like, I was literally on the cheap and then I had like three jobs when I got that. So I only did the intensive.
1 (50m 49s):
You say day one saffron charges. You you're saying, oh wow. This is maybe I'm not like enough of an artist for this place. Is that what it was? It felt too artsy for. Yeah.
3 (51m 0s):
Well I know it just felt like people had actually acted to perform. So it was very, very low bar and, and, but people had ideas and theories about acting. And I was like, oh, I memorize lines. So that's going to be a thing.
1 (51m 24s):
Luna we've had so many guests that have said the same thing that like they thought acting was like, literally, I don't remember who it was said. They thought it was just memorizing your lines and walking out on stage and remembering your blocking and then speaking the lines. And that was it. Like, that was the whole cry. I think both of us, I didn't know what I thought. I didn't know. But anyway, so you, you were in that
3 (51m 48s):
Maybe with some, maybe with some like, like spirit fingers, you know, and then throw me into, you know, improv first year and I'm like, oh, no space in hand. No, no, this is terrible. And I was surrounded by people who just were like, like flourishing, you know, like, and I mean, Kat Phillips is like one of the most talented in provers in the history of the world. And, and so like, I'll like, all of these people were like, this is my calling. And I'm like, oh, this is the worst thing I've ever done.
1 (52m 32s):
And you realize I've never asked anybody. Cause it does seem like there's those who loved improv and were good at it. And those who hated it because they weren't good at it, but I've never asked anybody, is it because you just didn't like improv? Is it because you just didn't see? What was everybody was so excited?
3 (52m 52s):
No, I think I loved improv, but I, but the failure, the constant like mess up and like I'm already somebody who doesn't like that feeling. And so that was very difficult for me that I've never had a class that I couldn't figure out. And so the challenge of something so ephemeral to something that you can't like pin down and do in a way to make it right. Quote unquote, like, so I don't think that I hated improv. In fact, I like, I went on to do improv and love stuff and like, but like that year was about me learning to fail.
3 (53m 43s):
And I think that that was scarier than anything
1 (53m 50s):
Or David or
3 (53m 51s):
No, it was ad college. It was David.
1 (53m 54s):
Okay. And did you feel like you got the hang of it? Like when did it shift or did you always
3 (54m 1s):
No. I mean, I think David, like, I, I think David finally acknowledged that I could do it in like, like when he, when we were working out in LA, like, like, like I, like, I think, I mean, I'm pretty sure that David was like on the front end of getting the cut, so, huh. No, no, I got, but I got warned that year. And so like, and so I'm pretty sure that it was that like, that was where I was the most at a loss. And so, and I, and the more that I stressed about it, the worst,
1 (54m 45s):
I remember thinking, how can I literally, how can I please Rick Murphy and do this improv in a way that's going to get me praise. And that would always, it never worked. It backfired. It was the weird, it's one of those things where like the less shits you give, the more praise you get in some ways.
3 (55m 3s):
And so, and I think that like, like there were a lot of people, like obviously there were, there were lovers and haters of David. And, but like for me, I, I got so frightened that all I wanted to do is just blend into the chalkboard. And so, and that's not helpful either. And so like, there were moments that I felt like I got it that were just enough to keep me going. And then my other classes, like other classes were so much better for me. And then, you know, and then second year I had Dawn who is like my person. So, so that like every single time I thought I was just about to leave or fall on my face or whatever it was, something would pick me up.
3 (55m 53s):
So it,
1 (55m 55s):
You said you, you didn't get cast in things. I mean, this is a evergreen.
3 (56m 1s):
Oh my God, everybody I'm sure.
1 (56m 3s):
What was the nature of D did you feel like you were just getting small parts or,
3 (56m 11s):
I mean, I was only in one main stage and, and, and I had like, and I had pretty good casting, but I was like the trooper. I was always like, oh, well don't do it. I mean, what have you was an orgasmic too, right? Yeah. Yeah. It was great. Wasn't it? It was the best.
1 (56m 34s):
I'd love to know what your memory of that was because I'm so stuck inside of the walls of my own memory,
3 (56m 41s):
Because we had no connection to each other. I mean, like, can you, I don't, I, the only reason I know that is, cause I think you've mentioned it, but I don't remember anybody in the cast. My 30 minute monologue where I had a baby, like I literally had a baby on stage wearing a unitard.
1 (57m 2s):
Wait, you were wearing a unit charter. The baby was wearing it. Yeah. Oh, okay.
3 (57m 7s):
Well had a mind baby onstage. It was horrific
1 (57m 13s):
And you're wearing unitards that's quite something.
3 (57m 17s):
Yup.
1 (57m 18s):
Okay. Y Y I,
3 (57m 22s):
I don't know whose choice I honestly very well could have been mine.
1 (57m 27s):
No, I bet it wasn't your choice. Nobody chooses to wear a unitard. Kate.
3 (57m 34s):
I don't know. It's just like, but we also it's like a memorizing hell because it was like these 40 minute monologues. And like, so I remember just like, I just remember running around maniacally around the stage, trying to remember the lines, trying to, and cause I basically the way that I, that, that it was Jay wasn't it J Skelton? No.
1 (58m 2s):
Oh
3 (58m 3s):
Yeah.
1 (58m 5s):
Did you get notes from him? Every single note from him?
3 (58m 12s):
No, no, no. I basically moved around the stage into so that I could remember my lines based on where I was on that. And so, yeah, like I, because I couldn't, I couldn't remember the lines and I always have issues with memorization anyway, because like, it's always a sign for me that I'm not in the role if I can't remember it. And, and, and, and, and if I find flow, then I will never forget the lines. But, but, but that show, I don't know if I, I mean,
1 (58m 48s):
So what would you have liked to have played? Like, do you remember like, oh my gosh. I would love to have been cast as,
3 (58m 59s):
I mean, it doesn't even have
1 (58m 60s):
To be specific plays, but like kinds of rules, like who are you dying? What kind of role were you dying to?
3 (59m 6s):
I don't even think that I don't even think that I understood that I, that like that fabulous is what I wanted to play until I graduated from school. Like, like, and so, and that those are impossible roles, but that's what, like, so I had this grain in my head that I, that I, that, that it was like glamour. I was, I was broken that I wasn't in the women. And because I was like, but this is my thing and old Hollywood and like this, but I didn't have the idea of what that meant.
3 (59m 46s):
Do you see, like, I didn't have the idea of what those characters actually did. And Shakespeare was the obvious choice for me because you get all of that, like deep drama and like, you know, screaming from the rafter.
1 (1h 0m 8s):
It sounds like you wanted like, intense visceral, like there's no holds barred kind of acting situation. Okay. Yeah.
3 (1h 0m 18s):
Yeah. But like, but I don't know, but not, I don't know. No. Well, and I had never had any experience whatsoever in life, let alone in, I mean, which showed in my social life, my like my, my college social life was nothing but drama. Like it was, Oh yeah.
1 (1h 0m 53s):
Like with relationships and stuff.
3 (1h 0m 58s):
So I really remember more about my social life in college than some of the like class stuff. For sure. That's
1 (1h 1m 5s):
How you survived it. Right. I mean,
3 (1h 1m 8s):
I mean like, yeah, I guess,
1 (1h 1m 11s):
Can you tell us, like, what kind, you don't have to talk about people if you don't want, but like what, what's the dynamic of the drama? Because that's fascinating because I, like,
3 (1h 1m 21s):
There was just a lot of, there was just a lot of cheating and relationship stuff and, and meetings where people had to talk about their feelings and yeah, it was, there was just a lot of drama. I would say that was if I had translated some of the drama that I reported that I built outside of the theaters into what I was doing in the theater school. I might've been more successful
1 (1h 1m 55s):
Zeroed drama buzz. Did you have any drugs? I like, no, I like, I like members, I stole this girl's pants. That was like the end of my, that was started on began like the Christine course, she had his pants, but like, I didn't have, you know what it, maybe you were really, I mean, wanted by, by in relationships. I was not wanting people desired you Kate. I think that was the,
3 (1h 2m 23s):
I don't think, I think that is, I think that's extremely,
1 (1h 2m 28s):
Like, it sounds like you were actually fun and like, people want it to be around you kind of a situation
3 (1h 2m 33s):
Maybe, maybe, but I also was like kind of willing to do anything and mess things up on purpose so that might've been magnetic and Yeah, like I'm like, Hey, I'll miss that up sugar. Absolutely.
1 (1h 2m 54s):
I wish you could say more about
3 (1h 2m 56s):
Offline.
1 (1h 2m 59s):
Is that a path like a pattern or like something you've had to work with of like trying to sabotage or create drama?
3 (1h 3m 6s):
I had to, I had to learn to stop that after theater school, like I had to, to, and that, and that in itself, I think was a personal process for sure. Like, I, I just, I worked out being unpopular in high school in theater school, you know? And so I like my, my, my nickname in high school was literally Kate, the dateless winder and I, I may have overcompensated.
1 (1h 3m 39s):
Got it, got it. Well, good. I mean, good. You have to go the other direction Or gas.
3 (1h 3m 50s):
So let's see. Sleeping beauty. That was the one. Yeah, that was the one main stage I did. And that was Dawn and yeah. And it was, and it was such a, it was a great show and Zach was prince charming and Gretchen was leaping beauty. And I was like for Tanya the bad. Yeah. Yeah. So the, so yeah, that was, that was a very, very fun show to do. I got to blow up, you know, 75 times or whatever, which was great. And yeah. And then let's see, what did you love
1 (1h 4m 26s):
About Don Elko? Oh,
3 (1h 4m 32s):
Well he taught me, first of all, he taught like, and I know that, that sounds so basic. Like he specific to me, he taught me about intention. He taught me about taking a script and pulling it apart and finding what you need. And like, like Barry wrote things that I could hold on to that, that, and he was kind of the old school acting teacher. He was very much the hit, hit your mark and be there on the night. And like, and I, that worked for me like that because he's his whole point was you can't find the authenticity without deep understanding of what you want.
3 (1h 5m 19s):
And for me, that made perfect sense. And, and he always was, I mean, he was just as mean as everybody else, you know, but, but like, and David never yelled at me. And, but, and, but everybody always felt that I was holding something back and like all, a lot of other professors, like all of the voice department,
1 (1h 5m 54s):
Everybody's holding shit back.
3 (1h 5m 57s):
I'm like, I don't think, I just don't think I have any shit, which is its own problem, but D but Don really had that, that way of speaking to me personally, that I felt supported and I felt like I was in on the joke. And I think that that was also something that was really important to me. I felt like that, that on the, that I, I didn't get it a lot of times. And he made me feel, I feel like I, that we communicated in a way that was funny and supportive in, even when he was telling me that what I was doing was terrible.
1 (1h 6m 39s):
Right. It worked for you. Like, I feel like what I'm hearing is that he gave you practical tools and a language to use that may made you feel a little less lost at the theater school. And I think that that's really, really important, really important so that you had something to work with.
3 (1h 6m 57s):
I mean, he, even in Lincoln park foods, after orgasm adulthood, he screamed across three aisles. He was like that naked play. You did really good job. Oh, Everybody in the grocery stores.
1 (1h 7m 16s):
Yeah. Did you do right after you graduated? What did you go to LA right away?
3 (1h 7m 24s):
Well, I mostly messed up, but I ended up staying here. I got a whole bunch of leads in Los Angeles and then I ended up staying here. And so, I mean, not like our class did really well. I mean, all of us were like, I was driving the car with Jen and Zach and Mike. And like every, like we were minute to minute going to meetings. We had to share meetings because we had to go so many places. So like, and I mean, I got to her two, I think, or something, but that was a lot.
3 (1h 8m 9s):
And, and, and the first thing that I did was like, cool, I'll be right. And waited six months, like an idiot. Why, why did you do that? I'm sure it had to do with a guy, but I didn't, I didn't know that you could do that. You could just move, you know, and I also thought that I, because I had this, I had this very early thought like that I was never going to make it until I was at least 35.
3 (1h 8m 50s):
Like the roles that I wanted, the things that I wanted to do were older roles were, were more mature and that I wasn't an ingenue. And so I had all this extra time, I don't know where this came from
1 (1h 9m 5s):
At. Right. Cause, cause what you experienced is you go to LA, right. And they're like, you're an ingenue. We want to cast you. We would love for you to be, you know, Kate Hudson. And so come on out and you're like, just a second. I'm going to just sit over here. That's fantastic.
3 (1h 9m 22s):
Really, really shitty,
1 (1h 9m 24s):
Amazing. I mean, I just stunned by, by that and it, and just because we all do it in different ways. It's like, you want me, you think that I'm going to be a millionaire and you're going to help me, you know what I'm going to do. I'm waiting for the dough in my garage for like six months and then I'll be back. Hold on.
3 (1h 9m 45s):
It'll be fine. It will be fine.
1 (1h 9m 47s):
Yeah. Like this is not on my sabotage timeline.
3 (1h 9m 54s):
Well, and I also wanted to be out of school, I think like so badly that I didn't want to rush to any did do anything because I had felt so like, I mean, it took me another year before I took another class and you need to take class right away. Like, and like, so I, I feel like I just, I took a vacation instead of tightening the bolts shit.
1 (1h 10m 27s):
I think that in the six months you, you squandered whatever opportunity you had going into it.
3 (1h 10m 33s):
I see. Yeah. I didn't, I mean, I like basically the manager that I met with and, and I, and I flew back out to LA at the end of June and met with the manager that I, that I liked. And, and he's like, we'll just put you on, ER, and get you your sad card. And I was like, fantastic. Didn't do it. I don't know I was in the, I was in an elevator with Tom Selleck. What could be more convincing? Well,
1 (1h 11m 1s):
How do you make sense of it now? I mean, is it, is it literally just, I was sabotaging something or do you, do you have,
3 (1h 11m 7s):
I think that, I think that I was, I, I had, like, I had no thought about it. Like it was something things kept happening like financially or whatever. What have you like, or, or like, I was just like, I'm just going to make a little bit more money and then I'm going to go here. And then like, it just, things just kept happening.
1 (1h 11m 32s):
Right. So Cisco, like life stuff came up that was like, I'll get to LA, I'll get to LA.
3 (1h 11m 38s):
But it like, but none of it looking back was important enough to stay in Chicago. Like, but it would, but at the time it seems like, oh, well I'll figure it out in a few.
1 (1h 11m 53s):
I totally can relate. And then looking back for me, like underneath was a profound terror of being special and wanted and famous. And I don't know if that if you have that at all.
3 (1h 12m 5s):
No, I think that, that was absolutely true. I think that, but I think that, that the, I think that fear of success also had a social aspect for me. Like, I didn't know where I fit in with the, the world as a whole. And, and especially like in my friend group. And I mean, because like my whole class was like, by the time I got there in January, like there were like 15 of us, holy shit.
1 (1h 12m 37s):
In LA,
3 (1h 12m 40s):
There were so many people. And
1 (1h 12m 46s):
Yeah, I got
3 (1h 12m 46s):
There in Jen. Yeah. I got there in January instead of June. And so literally it was six months, but, but yeah, and then it was, and then it was having a good time because success would have taken work and self-confidence that I didn't want to work on.
1 (1h 13m 9s):
So what did you end up doing? What being in your
3 (1h 13m 13s):
So I, I, I worked at the stinking Rose A. Little bit, but then I became, oddly enough, I worked at Bloomingdale's century, city, and somebody from the cosmetics department adopted me and I became a makeup artist. So like that I spent 10 years in cosmetics, more than that 12 years. And, and then doing theater on the side and writing on the side and like auditioning here and there getting an agent like then not committing to doing anything about it.
3 (1h 13m 55s):
And then losing set agent and then getting another one
1 (1h 13m 58s):
Is your thought of acting all done now? Or where are you at with it?
3 (1h 14m 2s):
Acting comes back to me whenever I need it kind of, I mean, when I separated from my husband and moved to Chicago, I a second city class and it fixed me, do you know what I mean? Like, it, like, it is like a SAB that I can always go to. I'm a writer now, but like, and I think that as you have posited a million times, why was I acting? But like, I think that writing is hard and acting is connection and ensemble, which makes, gets my extrovert all soothe. Sure. So
1 (1h 14m 43s):
Can I just pause and say, I know that you, you say, why was I acting? But just fascinated by having external people saying you're good, right? Because you came to LA, you did your monologues and people were like, you're fucking good. I want to meet with you and help you become an actor. But thinking that it wasn't, I guess I'm just wondering, like what didn't work for you about acting?
3 (1h 15m 7s):
Definitely. I just thought that it was going to be served on a plan.
1 (1h 15m 11s):
Oh, I can totally agree. Okay. I get, I understand that.
3 (1h 15m 16s):
I thought maybe I would show up and there was no work, right? Like, like that, all of a sudden, like it would just, somebody would call somebody and then I would get the phone call and like, and I'm like, that's, that is purely. Oh, but I like, I I'm one of those, I forget that you have to do make an effort, right. Sometimes. And I've had to learn that over. Especially in the last 10 years, I would say like, what do you want to do? You know, you have to make an effort to do it
1 (1h 15m 59s):
As the parent of two Leo children. I'm deeply frightened of what you've just told me. No,
3 (1h 16m 3s):
But is it true? I
1 (1h 16m 5s):
Mean, my God, okay, well this is giving me, okay, maybe this is why I'm having this problem. But I was going to say, it's also just, this is not a, I don't mean this as an insult, but it's also kind of an immaturity thing that we expected. We talked to so many people who say they had meetings and then the people would say, when are you moving to LA? And they'd say, when I have a reason to move to LA and then they'd say, okay, well, call us when you, when you, when you get here. And, and that so many people didn't know that you sh that what you should've said was I'm moving tomorrow.
3 (1h 16m 49s):
I'm selling my futon because we had nothing. Why we're moving now is a pain in the butt. Like,
1 (1h 16m 57s):
I mean, I, you know what, it's not that I, I I'm like theater schools evil, but I think it would have been really it'll be, would have behooved us to have someone say, Hey, here's the languaging because it's a really, it's a dance. It's a dating thing. If someone says, we love your work. When are you moving from Chicago? If you want to be a professional actor, you say, I move next week. Please start sending me out. Great. But we didn't know that. And like I was saying at Shakespeare and company, Carrie Grant's daughter, Jennifer Grant told me, I love your work. I would like you to meet my agent. You know what I told her, I'm not interested in meeting your agent because I do theater in Chicago.
1 (1h 17m 39s):
Now that is what I literally said to this woman who looked at me. She was a seasoned LA actress, her mom's Diane Cannon, and looked at me and said, okay. And walked away, what the fuck is wrong with me?
3 (1h 17m 55s):
Alicia Silverstone was in my, was in my intensive and was like, you can stay with me in LA any time.
1 (1h 18m 4s):
Right. I know. Look, I, I, I know we just didn't, we didn't get it, man. We didn't get it. And look, I don't know if you believe things happen for a reason, but you know, it, it may be, we would have, I would have overdosed on Carrie grant daughter's couch. I don't know. I don't know,
3 (1h 18m 25s):
But really, but really I like the amount of that. Can't be true also. Like, well, that can't be true, but again, and I think that the theater school set us up for, for general auditions for like theaters in Chicago. That's it like, th like in terms of, in terms of like training us to do anything outside of conservatory,
1 (1h 19m 5s):
We had, no, we, we, we really were, were behind the ball. Right. Like,
3 (1h 19m 10s):
But I worked in Jane's office. I knew what casting even looked like. Yeah. Yeah. Like she figured out that I knew how to do computers. Well, and so I was like redoing some stuff on computers and like teaching people how to like, like do stuff. Yeah. And like, this was in the dark age. And, and, and so I knew how casting works. Like, and even that, and I like, and I met with like the head of, of CBS blahdeblah in LA. And I was like, oh, I worked for, I worked for Jane sometimes.
3 (1h 19m 51s):
And she was like, you need to stop. Otherwise you'll be a casting agent. And meaning
1 (1h 19m 57s):
Like, that's all people will see you
3 (1h 19m 59s):
As, or what that's. But no, it just that like, then you're not an actor anymore. Like if you go to the casting thing, so I stopped working for Jane, but didn't act like,
1 (1h 20m 12s):
Right, look, you, you, it sounds like the parts of what, like I'm hearing, it's like, we have these parts of ourselves. Right. And you just hadn't like braided them together. So there was like the part that wanted to be an actor. And there was a part that didn't want to do the work. And there was a part that, that was really committed, but didn't look, you just didn't figure it out. You just hadn't figured it out.
3 (1h 20m 34s):
And we were, and also like, I, I was 21 when I graduated college. Like, I like, I, who am I? I was still just this pile of whatever. Right. So like, I, I don't, I think it's hilarious. I don't like, I don't sit up at night. Like, oh God, what have I done? But it is, but it is really funny how like, like I just literally waved at things as they passed me by what a great,
1 (1h 21m 10s):
What a great
3 (1h 21m 15s):
Love you too.
1 (1h 21m 16s):
You have to say, you have to tell us your, your version is in the lions.
3 (1h 21m 23s):
Okay. So this was, this was the craziest thing that had ever, and maybe to this day has ever happened to me. I saw my roommate was Chris Freberg, who was the stage manager of Andrew police in the lion. Okay. And, and Chris and I had like, had been best pals. So I got, I was in on a lot of like the tech side of things because of Chris, like, you know, I got to be like the, the, the person that hands out the trophies at, at the gala, things like that, because I was friends with all those people. And so, so I'm asleep and Chris blows into my room and is like, get on the phone.
3 (1h 22m 11s):
And I'm like, I don't where I don't even know Don is on the phone. And he goes, you're in, Andrew is in Elian today. And I'm like, no, I'm that? Oh, no, no. I don't think that's a great idea at all. And he's like, Stephanie is sick. You ha you have to, you you're playing the role.
1 (1h 22m 27s):
It's the last
3 (1h 22m 28s):
Show. It's the last show. It's the last show
1 (1h 22m 31s):
You literally had. Way, way I have this, I have this, you woke up out of asleep into the actor's nightmare.
3 (1h 22m 42s):
Yeah. We don't know the lines, Chris. Chris is like, I will be in your ear. I've never used it. I've never used a headset before in my life. I I'm like, okay, well, Chris is in my ear. I will figure this out. Like she throws the script on my bed and she's just like, start looking. And I'm like, I don't think that this is a great, but also I'm so flattered. Like my ego is on PI light. And so I'm like, okay. And Dawn is asking me personally to, okay, this can only go wrong.
3 (1h 23m 25s):
Right.
1 (1h 23m 26s):
So right. I have to say
3 (1h 23m 28s):
No, because it was the most. So I get out of bed. I look, the script is huge. It was like an hour and 20 minutes. Like it was not a short play. And luckily I was attached to someone for most of the show. Literally we
1 (1h 23m 49s):
Were handcuffed together
3 (1h 23m 52s):
On the ship. I mean, it's so I, I, I get out of bed. I, Chris and I get in the car, like immediately to go to the theater. Cause I'm going to get on the set and I'm going to like walk and Don is going to meet me there and he's going to walk me through. And as soon as the cast arrives, everybody's going to walk me through. And so, because, so everybody got a call I think, to come early. And also Stephanie is like, not my size. Like she's, she is like five foot 11.
3 (1h 24m 33s):
And like, so they they're taking huge clips and clipping me into this costume and around this headset that, so what was his name? What was, what was Andrew glazes name? He was a real jerk. He doesn't shock me. He was downstairs. We went downstairs into the lower lobby to run lines and he was like, I don't even know why we're doing this. I think we should cancel the show. You can't even keep up. You don't even know the lines. Like he, like, he ruined me and I was like, oh, I can't cry right now.
3 (1h 25m 21s):
Okay. So then Chris and I were practicing with the headset, even in the car. And what we figured out is that I could get, I could learn half the line. Like I would hear half the line and then I would have to start speaking. So the second half of the line was always going to be a little up in the air because it takes like years of practice to get the newscast, listen, understand. And then
1 (1h 25m 48s):
Yeah, people go to school for pate, teleprompter, ear prompter.
3 (1h 25m 54s):
Yeah. And so like, let's be, let's be clear. I'm not much of a listener. So I'm like, like it's all a blur. Everybody's super helpful. Pat Patrick Belton was in it, right? Yes. He was one
1 (1h 26m 11s):
Of the soldiers.
3 (1h 26m 13s):
Yeah. Cause he kept on going. You're good. Like I, like I said, there's all these like, like people and, and Don is basically like dope. Like he tells everybody that, that, that to come together basically like, and says, says, we're just going to do this show. And like, and it's ed, Kate is here to hold the place, but we're going to do the show. Nice. And I'm like, ACEs, that sounds like a deal to me. And we, and I mean, like, it was this, this the most invigorating, terrifying hour and a half of my life, somebody said later, I don't even remember the princess was just real stupid.
1 (1h 27m 13s):
That's right. They said that a kid said at the talk back, I was so dumb and it was,
3 (1h 27m 26s):
I'm like, perfect. Because I smiled a lot.
1 (1h 27m 30s):
I was very
3 (1h 27m 31s):
Funny. Remember I messed up the amount of the balloons or whatever. I don't know.
1 (1h 27m 39s):
I just remember you really being a fucking trooper. Like you said, man, like up blocking
3 (1h 27m 46s):
The amount of errors, dead attire seen when we are like lashed to the math of a shift, you did the both wines. You did, you might be thinking blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, my response would be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you might say like, you did both lines
1 (1h 28m 8s):
So much fun. Like I just, I just was like, okay, it's the last show? What? Let's just go for it. I had a blast. It's also bear heads involved, you know, like there's
3 (1h 28m 19s):
1200 kids of hacks. It
1 (1h 28m 20s):
Was a full
3 (1h 28m 22s):
Packed, packed.
1 (1h 28m 27s):
I thought it went really well. I just thought you did a really good job. I was like, this is like a Saturday night live is what it is like.
3 (1h 28m 34s):
I mean, thank God you were there. Like honestly, like what? I don't know what would have happened. And the second half of every line was like, don't
1 (1h 28m 47s):
Like, Yeah. And so it ends up being such an interesting, like really metaphor for the launch from theater school, into professional life. Because you know, at some point it's the training part is over and it's pushing you out on stage and saying, you, you just have to do it. And you know, and you, and, and you know, for awhile, I thought it was unfair of John to not cancel. But I understand a little bit more now about why he didn't a there's 1200 kids coming be it's the final performance.
1 (1h 29m 28s):
And that's apparently that's when all the faculty came to watch it and see like the show must go on. Everybody knows that you, you you've, you've got to, to go forward. And it turns out to have been in some ways, probably a really important exercise for everybody who was involved. Yeah. And I really think it showed for me, it showed you that he trusted you. Right. And then you could deal with adversity and do hard things and do it really well. And also, yeah, you just, you just went for it.
3 (1h 30m 7s):
Well, and I think that, that there is that like, there's that mental block where you've got this huge wall in front of you and like, and you, and you say, I'm not going to consider how to climate, I'm going to blast through it. And I never knew that I had that power to, to go through something terrifying and like, and do it anyway. And I didn't know that I was capable of that. And so that was a huge, huge deal for me.
3 (1h 30m 48s):
And, and I think that that is that, that is something that comes back in my, like in my life personally in my like, like just do it and we'll see how it goes.
1 (1h 31m 11s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: R.I.P. Michael K. Williams
Let Me Run This By You: Loyalty
Interview: We talk to Kelly McAdams
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? So that's the actual truth of the matter. So, but what it is bringing up is like these feelings and you must have, well, I don't know what I'm assuming you have these feelings when you're taking care of another being of like, I, especially a baby who can't talk. Right. I don't know what's wrong with you. There's something wrong with you.
1
00:00:50
You're not, something's off. You can't communicate to me because you don't have the language and doors can't communicate to me cause she's a dog. And, but I am responsible for you because you have no other person to guide you, my husband too, but he's like, you know, whatever, he doesn't know what's happening either. And so there's a lot of, there's a lot of like waiting and saying, okay, well, you know what, hopefully this doesn't kill you. You know what I mean? Like we're going to figure it out, but it, it is, it does bring up these, this issue of what to do in between the time. And this is what I experienced with my mom and tests and everything in tests.
1
00:01:33
And when you send a script off and you're waiting to hear what, how do I work with myself in the, in between times of not knowing of submitting the thing, whether it's a poop sample or right. Example and hearing the answer. Yeah. Well, so I hear you talking about two to at least two things. One being just the feeling that you get when you're taking care of somebody and there's something wrong. And what that usually raises for people is however, somebody treated them when there was something wrong with them and they were little. And my biggest flaw in that regard is I get scared.
1
00:02:14
And then that makes me angry. And I, and I want to be like, I want to invalidate it and say that there's nothing wrong with you or that the worst thing is wrong with you. And it just becomes this thing. And I think for us, it's been a lot that we don't have very much wiggle room in our system here. Like we sort of need everything to be functioning at all times because we don't have much of a safety net in terms of like people to help us or money to help us if there's a big problem. So we both really scared when there's a problem. We get scared of like, if it means somebody, you know, can't go to work or somebody, you know, is going to need a of our resource.
1
00:02:59
It just, it kind of triggers that. The other thing about waiting is also very painful. And I feel like there isn't any other way around it, but to say like, here I am waiting and here I am still waiting and are all like, you know, it w whatever will be, will be, and to try to have that sort of like not being attached to the outcome, which is hard. Yeah. And no, and knowing that, you know, for me, it's like, I've done what I w it's like, knowing did I do what I could do? Yes. I did all what we're doing. All that we can do, whether it's for this or that, the other thing.
1
00:03:40
And sometimes you, haven't done all you can do, and that makes the weighting worse. Cause you're like, I actually half-assed it. Or I, I fell short on this and we'll see, and then owning that part for me. And then you're right. There is absolutely nothing I can do. I can't, I can't fix this on my own. I am not a vet. And I am not a poop tech. I that's not in my skillset. And so I just have to boil the chicken and boil the right and make the rice and, and feed the dog. And she, her mood is fine. Everything is fine. It's just a shitty problem. It's a problem of shitting.
1
00:04:20
And, and I did not anticipate that's one of the things of having a puppy that I did not anticipate was the amount of fecal matter that I come in contact to on a daily basis. Right. And I'm coming in contact with, on a daily basis right now. And I couldn't have known that. And, and that it's so weird, but it does come back to writing in and everything. And that you can't know until, you know, and you, and, and my amazing mentor psychiatrist said to me, marriage, you cannot actually be that ready for marriage and childbearing and child rearing marriage makes you ready for marriage in some ways. And child rearing makes you ready for you. You cannot because I want it to be so prepared, like how to prepare, and you can do some of the work, but like you do, and writing.
1
00:05:09
So I talked to this amazing woman on Sunday who invited me to her house in Brentwood. I was like, oh, I'm getting fancy here. And she's a Chicago play Chicago playwright, who is a television writer. Oh, I'm I'm, my internet is funky too. But anyway, okay. So she's a Chicago playwright and I was in a play of hers in 1999. And now she writes big wig television, and she's about to be a show runner. And I just said, let me see if, yeah. And she's, she's always been lovely. And I said, let me see if we could just take a meeting and like, whatever.
1
00:05:51
And then she invited me to her house and, and she was just dropping so much wisdom. And I was like, soaking it all in. But she said the same thing, which is, cause I was like, okay, like, let's say, I, I, I get I into a writer's room. Like ho how do you, how do you do it? She goes, you just shit. Like anything else you just show up the first day and you try it out. And I was like, oh, like everything starts somewhere. Yeah. And, and actually everything is just a series of many, many steps. And like, that's the thing to do actually in both of these scenarios is like, okay, so, you know, what, what am I, what can I do right now?
1
00:06:34
What can't I do right now? What can I know right now? What can I not know right now? And developing some feeling that you're okay with the not knowing that's, that's the thing that I feel like gets triggered for people who are control freaks is just not knowing is really upsetting. And the pandemic is upsetting. And then not knowing with, you know, whatever you're gonna do with your career is upsetting. It's all. But it's really all unknowns because even something that you really know right now that you really feel too in your heart to be true, it may or may not continue in that vein. Right. Yeah. Right. In two seconds, like it is.
1
00:07:16
And I, you know, I was reflecting on the death of Michael K. Williams. You, you must be so sad about Omar. I burst into tears. And then I thought, if this is fucking an addiction, I'm going to cry. And it is, it was a heroin addiction. And I was like, wasn't he famously like in recovery during his, yeah, I think so. I think he, he had it's like, and, and it just, it's just so sad. And so I felt angry and like addiction, you know, it just triggers so much in my feeling about addiction, about suffering from a disease that we just don't understand or care enough to really look at as a, as a, as a national and international health crisis.
1
00:08:14
Like we weren't, a lot of people are not interested in looking at it as like, oh, this is like cancer. So my, so there was this period of time with my kids where we'd be listening to some music, you know, like anyone house and she's alive. No. Why did she die? Alcohol? Okay. Listening to watching a movie with Phillip Seymour Hoffman, is he still alive? No. What did he die from drugs? Listening to Whitney Houston. I mean, it's like every singer. And finally they get to like, is that what everybody dies from his drugs and alcohol.
1
00:08:57
And I'm like, not technically everybody, but I can see why you would think it's everybody, because so many people who die young, especially die from this it's stunning. I mean, it is, it is flat. I'm just flabbergasted. And I, I, I knew that when I saw it, I was like, oh, oh, we have really re he's someone that I felt we have really been robbed of a genius that could have, you know, he was so great in that show. I started, I helped to cast a little bit love Lovecraft country and, and he was in it.
1
00:09:38
And it he's a, he was a genius. Like there, there there's no way around it. And he was a huge philanthropist and helped black and brown youth in New York city. And it's like, we're just robbed, you know, Philip, Seymour Hoffman, same thing. We're robbed of like what could have been it's so fucked up. So that was really hard. I was like, oh, Omar's gone. Like Omar has gone. And that is, and apparently he was a really, really nice human being. So it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You could be nice. You could be evil. You could be, it'll take you, frankly. It tends to be the empathic people that, you know, it's part.
1
00:10:20
And I hate to say this because I really don't believe in this whole thing of like, you can't be a genius unless you're tortured. But I, I will just say there is a lot of co-occurrence of people who are deeply empathic and people who are great artists, because of course you have to be able to understand and, and, and talk about and portray pain. That's what everybody gets out of art anyway, as a resonance with their own pain. So, you know, so, and I don't know what the answer is, is the answer. Like, it seems like one of the answers is that everybody has to stop pretending like this isn't a problem. And Everett and everybody has to stop kowtowing to people who are famous and have money, and still be able to say, you can't do that here.
1
00:11:07
You know, I, we don't do that. Here is riding on you, but we can't do that here. And, you know, and the studios have to be willing to take a loss if it means saving somebody's life,
1
00:11:58
And I'm just finding, like, people don't have any loyalty. And like, for example, you know, the people who are closest to that actor, if they were really loyal to him and they saw that he was suffering, they would have had to be willing to overlook their own financial, you know, needs or desires long enough to actually be loyal to him because what it ends up being is that everybody's just loyal to what everybody else is. Can give them instead of about who, who they are. And like, I've noticed it in my children, they don't seem to have, they don't seem to even like, it's like an antiquated idea to them, you know, about being loyalty.
1
00:12:50
Yeah. And I was just wondering what your thoughts are about it and where, what place loyalty has in your life. Yeah. I mean, I think I really resonate with the fact that, like, I think there was a, a loyalty turned, you know, self sacrifice and self and, and like harm to self right. Of the original for me of my family of origin. Right. So loyal that it becomes people pleasing and then ultimately destruction and okay, fine. But I do think that there is such, like, there used to be right there. They're there you seem to be, and maybe this was an illusion, an idea that people were more important than things, you know, and I think that's gone by the wayside and I think things are now more important than people.
1
00:13:42
And we're seeing it in that. It's interesting, like companies like, like Amazon, right? So it, the horror stories, and yet it's so convenient. We all do. You don't, but other people just order from Amazon and shit. And then there's outliers that everyone it's interesting touts says like, oh my God, this guy who made the minimum salary for each employee, $70,000, right. And the company's doing great and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it takes a lot of work and nobody's following his lead. Right. But he's loyal, he's, he's loyal. And I think the people who are willing to take the hit and willing to take the hit financially in order to be truly loyal to people over things, we, we respect them.
1
00:14:32
We're all of them, but nobody follows suit because exactly what you said, everyone is out. There is a real desperation to take care of south capitalism. And nobody wants to risk losing the money, losing the deal, to be loyal to a human being it's really up. So we, I think that loyalty has gone from being loyal to people, humans, to being loyal, to, to a dollar and to a profit and to a machine. And yeah, that's why for me, when I hear stories about people who are like really loyal, you know, still to their, to their family, but a lot of times in business in Hollywood, when you hear the stories of like, no, no, no, my rep or my, whoever was stuck, you know, stuck by me when, when no one would buy my shit or when they believed in me, it's really touching.
1
00:15:26
And we all love those stories, alum, Moonlight. I love this. I love that. But nobody takes a risk to freaking do it. It's so bizarre. It's like everyone, then you celebrate it and give it an Oscar. But the, the horror story behind how it got made, or, or just the trauma about trying to get these pictures and these movies and these television shows made is like so brutal. It's like, we love a good loyalty story, but we're not willing to put our money where our mouth is. You know, it's in this weird way. It's almost, I think it must almost reflect like people's basic in ability to be loyal to their own values.
1
00:16:08
You know? I mean, I think that we all come to this earth with like an inherent set of values. Now, granted, if you grow up in a family where there is nothing where that's never enforced, you're not, maybe not likely to hold on to it, but most people have like some basic sort of values it's, but we you're. Right. We're willing to abandon them in a moment. If we think it's going to get us something. And what we don't realize is everything that we lose. And when we abandon our values and like, yeah. And the thing that I'm always trying to tell my kids is, you know, like an example would be, well, why should I do that?
1
00:16:53
If they don't do that, that's like a constant refrain in my house. And I'm always saying, because if it's your value to do that, then you do it no matter how the other person is receiving it, or no matter if you're the only person who's throwing this, it comes up a lot with like littering, you know? And my kids make fun of me because I'll carry trash in the car. If I can't find a place to put it in there, you know? And they're like, just throw it on the ground. And I like, especially if it's a place where there's a lot of trash mom, there's already a ton of trash on the ground. And I'm like, because that's not my value. My value is to throw things away.
1
00:17:34
And it doesn't matter if I'm in a pristine place where there's not a piece of trash or I'm in a trash, like I'm not going to contribute to the problem. And it's just really hard to instill in people. And I think if you look at it, I mean not to bring it back it well, but to bring it back to the internet, like if it, the culture of the social media culture is so fast. So just follow the trend. I mean, that's all that happens. You follow a trend, you get rich, you've jumped on a bandwagon early enough. You you're making millions. And so new values don't really, they don't have a monetary, you don't get paid to have good values.
1
00:18:16
Right. Right. Nobody gives a shit. So it's a thankless thing. But at the end of the day, I think it's true. I mean, it really, for me comes down to when I'm at the end of the day, whenever the big end of the day is how do I want to leave the planet in my soul, in my heart? Do I want to feel like I did what I could to contribute to helping? Or did I not, I cannot live with some and some are negotiable. Right. But then there are certain non-negotiables that I like living in denial versus living in truth about feelings and about what is actually happening in my life.
1
00:18:57
And then with my relationships. Okay. I would rather, that's a strong value of mine to look for the truth and to try to live from a place of authenticity. Don't always do it. Not easy, not always, but when I'm dying, whenever that is, whether it's quickly or slowly, I want to be able to say, look, yeah, I fucking tried. And I contributed to trying to live by this value. Did it always work? No. But did I try my best? Yes. Okay. I can say that versus what did I do? I just write. Yeah. I went and got a, you know, whatever it is. I, you know, I bought a Mercedes G wagon. Okay.
1
00:19:38
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And with the exception of the sociopath's of the world, like at the end of the day, you don't feel good if you're going to sleep in your Mercedes G wagon. And you've like, and you've like sold out all of your friends along the way. Now you don't actually know. And it, and it comes back to what that client said to him. And, you know, the client said to me the gangster, right. Did I tell you the mobster who, the old mobster, I saw this old mobster as a client who is semi-famous, you know, like in the world. And he said to me, he was like, he got out of federal prison. He was like 80 years old when he got out and he had to see me, he was mandated. And I saw him, he said, let me tell you something.
1
00:20:18
If you don't have your emotional and physical health, you've got nothing. Nothing I have had money. I've had this, I've had that. It doesn't mean anything. I'm miserable. I'm now bankrupt, emotionally and spiritually. And I would trade it all for that. And I really believed him because this is a guy who freaking had at all. And he was literally like, clutching my hand, pleading with me saying, take care of your emotional, physical health. Cause without it, and, and your S like center, because without it, nothing else matters. And then the guy died. Right? So like he passed away. Like I heard like five years later, whatever.
1
00:21:00
And he was, I don't know if he ever got to a place where he felt better, but Jesus, I was like, okay, dude, I would consider it an accomplishment that he even got to the place where he could say that to you, because I know people very well who have died without ever even, and who have lost everything while they were alive and still didn't get to the place of understanding that it's only about, you know, what's oh, it's so crazy. I'm not happy now, you know? Yeah. Okay.
0
00:21:35
Well
2
00:21:46
Today on the podcast, we're talking with Kelly, Mick Adams. Kelly is someone who went to the theater school at dusk, at DePaul university. And she is a business woman. She's a wedding planner that just sort of slays all things, wedding planning, and she's delightful and humble and sassy and funny. So please enjoy our conversation with Kelly, McDonalds,
1
00:22:10
Kelly McAdam, what'd you go in and get Kelly McAdams, congratulations. You survived theater school. And I have 1 million memories of you from that time, which, which we'll get into, but generally to start us off, what do you have enough to for the last 25 years ago?
3
00:22:39
Really method, not much, you know, I chill pina coladas. Yeah. That feels about right. I'm not doing the rat race at all of life and job and kids and family and yeah. So all, all of the above I'm, I'm living the dream living in Los Angeles, not the acting dream that got crushed years ago.
1
00:23:10
Wait, wait, this is exciting. This is so, but you do so many, I mean like you have, you have a thriving career, you have two children I believe, and right. And, and a husband, but why let's, let's go back a little bit. Cause we're, I'm all about hearing about dreams being resurrected and, and squashed and then resurrected again. So what first were you, were you a kid that acted? Were you a child actor?
3
00:23:41
I wasn't a child actor, but I did get into it about sixth grade. And then I, high school is when I dove in. So I'd say 15. I, I was, I was in it to win it. It was in Texas and Houston. And so if you know anything about Texas, we do everything on a bigger scale than anyone does. So our theater department was intense. We were like the five star we would travel, compete. It was very cutthroat, so to speak. So
1
00:24:16
Were you on the, the, the, was there like the, the team, the speech team or was it straight up acting? Oh, okay.
3
00:24:24
So we would do the speech competitions. You'd do a comedy or drama. And then we would also tour with the UIL shows. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. Basically. It was like a 45 minute show that you work on for three months and you travel and then you compete and you go to state and then you hopefully win state, but sometimes you'd come in second or third. Yeah, it was, it was, our school was pretty top-notch it was cool.
1
00:24:54
Was it an arts high school?
3
00:24:56
No, not by any means. It was just a public. I mean, football was everything. It was again, Texas. We just had an incredible theater teacher, miss Erlandson. And she, she wanted to win.
1
00:25:12
I love that. Honestly, we could do, I've said this before we could do a whole episode just about like inspiring high school. And for me it was actually junior high drama teachers. And we're like, what a great impact they had, even if, for people who didn't pursue it, just like the passion that those teachers have.
3
00:25:32
It just also kept me in such a straight line. You know, I was not hanging around the best kids and I still hung around that. Not best kids, but I still succeeded because I had to, I had to show up. I had to, you know, somebody held me accountable. So that was, she was quite quite important for sure. And then she was the one that honestly introduced me to theater schools, conservatories. So it was a big deal. The upperclassmen I'd watch them go through the process and look at different schools. And each year certain ones would be better than the others and kind of rank which ones you wanted to audition for.
3
00:26:13
And yeah, it was, it wasn't like it was out of the blue going to a conservatory. It was part of the program.
1
00:26:20
That's amazing. So you had, so she did she like, did she know about them and an educator self on them and then like show you brochures? Cause there's we have a whole string of podcasts where we talk about the colorful DePaul brochures and I still remember them too, but did she, did she like, w would she help you make like choices where you were? That is where is she? She's still with us.
3
00:26:46
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She is. She's still in the universe. I don't, I think she's retired. I don't think she's teaching anymore still in Texas. And it's, she's not Texas at all. Like, that's an interesting, like I don't consider myself Texas and I think she was also about that as well, but, but yeah, she would like the year before me, there was a super talented, late girl who was going to North Carolina school of the arts. And that was like a big deal. And I remember our teacher just being like so proud that she got in and she was going to go to like one of the best schools in the country.
3
00:27:29
And so when I approached her saying, I'd like to go to a conservatory, we, we discussed like the different ones and what we thought that like capabilities would be. And, you know, I still think I was at the level of North Carolina school of the arts. So we honed in on NYU and DePaul and, you know, prepared our pieces and it's it's yeah. Kind of grooms you to, so the audition process,
1
00:27:56
Do you remember your audition and what it was like for you,
3
00:27:59
You know, studying? So I'd been listening to the podcast and I love all by the way. It's so fun. I don't remember my pieces that I did, but I absolutely, it it's funny to listen to Jeffrey Brown because I feel like we were very similar with the NYU DePaul situation. I drove NYU was at Dallas, so we had to drive three hours. My mom and I, and it was, it was like this old man behind a desk. And he was just like doing monologue, do my monologue. And he's like another one do another one, one more. I was like, ah, thankfully I had all this like going.
3
00:28:41
And so I left, it was like 15 minutes. And my mom's like, that's it. I was like, yeah, I guess, I don't know. We drove three hours back home. And then I went to DePaul's, which was abusive. So I could just drive. Cause I lived outside of, he said, and it was Rick Murphy who has a very special place in my heart. And it was magical. Like I loved, I just remember loving every second. I mean, I was definitely like, you got a little weirded out, like what are we doing? But it was so fun. And, and, and then we, I feel like I changed for some reason. I don't know why I have memory, but yeah. I changed into like a nice dress and not a log.
3
00:29:22
Yeah. Right. Okay.
1
00:29:24
More people there's all this talk about. Like people wore like sweat pants, some people had jeans to do the movement part. Some people didn't know what the movement part was and were wearing like, you know, slacks and all that stuff. But then you, you changed. I remember, I remember people bringing sweats and stuff and then for their pieces, they, they, they like got back into their audition outfit. So you were addressed. Okay. But you don't remember your pieces, Kelly?
3
00:29:50
No, I don't. Which is a plumber, but we used to create our own, so we would cut scripts together. So it wouldn't necessarily be a traditional monologue and, and that was part of the speech part of it. So we would always, so we got really creative with our, with our item, which might've helped as well. So, but yeah. And then I got in both schools, which was exciting and, and again, very parallel to Jackie brown story. Basically my parents were like, NYU is ridiculous, really expensive. And you know, you could either work and go to college or you could have a full college experience and go to DePaul. So I chose the latter.
1
00:30:32
And so did you move to LA as soon as you graduated?
3
00:30:37
No. No. I stayed about four years in Chicago. I got zero by. Okay. So bad. I was so bad. Anyway. I mean, you guys have touched on that, but at the monologues were just terrible. I mean, I think two people in our class had a good monologue and that was it. So I was in the rough pile. So I came back to Chicago and, and yeah, I did, I did theater and did some commercials. I was in shaker group thing with Eric Slater. That was a real fun, crazy experience.
3
00:31:18
Worked on like some independent films, just kind of like, you know, I would wait tables, make some money and then do a show that would last two months, make no money, you know, burn through everything and I'd go wait tables and kind of did that for about four years. Yeah,
1
00:31:35
Go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, you know, taking it back a little bit, something that you said, so you, you no bites in LA, but do you remember those pieces or that monologue? Did you, did you, did you, oh, what was your showcase monologue?
3
00:31:51
He was so bad. It was, I don't remember where it was from and this is probably why. Cause it was so I was, I was a girl in a waiting room about to get an abortion.
1
00:32:03
Yes. This is ringing a bell. This is really about,
3
00:32:08
This is how you want to showcase yourself in front of Los Angeles, depressing re like it was just bad. And I remember Gina, oh my gosh. I like had a blue fancy t-shirt with like black pants. I mean, I couldn't be more nondescript and it was, it was just terrible. It was all sorts of terrible.
1
00:32:33
Sorry. I'm sorry to be laughing. I just, what I, what I'm just flashing on is this image of us all in the green room, you know, with our hair and our makeup and what, and I just want to look at us now and B and I would just want to yell. You're all a bunch of idiots, but I do work out. It did work out for some of us, just not all of us, or most of us are not the way, not the way we thought it would work out. Like the whole thing about this. Right. It's like the dream, right. To be a famous actor that most of us had. Not all of us, because some people we've interviewed had been like, you know what?
1
00:33:15
I just wanted to do theater and fuck the rest. But most of us thought I'm going to be a star. I'll speak for myself. And then it just didn't work out that way. Like when people, it just didn't work out that way. So, so when did you realize, like, fuck, well, maybe you didn't want to put your energy into the dream of being a famous actor anymore.
3
00:33:41
It was a slow, it wasn't a moment. It was kind of, I mean, I am a money driven person. I will say that I don't have a lot, which probably is why I'm driven is because I want more like most people and I was waiting tables and just, you know, on the, I didn't get the whole system, I would do some theater and that was terrible at LA parable. And then I would look a little something here or there, but I would make no money or barely any money and get an audition every few months.
3
00:34:23
I just, I didn't, I didn't get it like it wasn't fulfilling at all.
1
00:34:28
Okay. So that's the key, I think that's really important to know is that maybe there's something in pivoting about the fulfillment Quasha that we, that we're, we're like, we're like not if you're not fulfilled and you realize you're not fulfilled, you have a choice. We can keep doing the unfulfilling thing, which sounds, which I've done. But then it sounds like you pivoted and you did something else, many other things. Okay.
3
00:34:58
Well, yeah. I mean we can, so I, when I moved here, one of Patrick Belton, very good friend of mine, ours, he kind of took me under his wing after a couple of years and was like, cause he had the DJ business and he was like, Hey Kelly, why don't you come to this wedding? And I'm DJ. And I think you'd be a good wedding coordinator. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. You know, I thought, I, you know, it's just, yes. Ads like to say, so I went and I was, yeah, I could do this. So I booked a couple of weddings at some really great venues. And I guess I did a good job because then the venues just put me on their list.
3
00:35:39
And I created, I was like, oh, I guess I should have like a company. And I should do a website and did all the things. And just slowly started building this business while waiting tables while still had my toe in the acting world. I wasn't ready to say goodbye to that yet. And it was, it was an interesting, I finally realized the connection is that a wedding is theater. It's production, lighting sets costume. Every Saturday is opening night for me. So I'm the producer of the show.
3
00:36:21
I send them down the aisle and it's like, curtains open. Here we go. And it's for six, seven hours versus two hours. And then it ends and it gets all broken down and I move onto the next show. So to speak, you know,
1
00:36:36
You're like a PT Barnum, you set up in one town and they put it all back in your wagon. Wait, I have to ask, can you just tell us one terrible disastrous wedding story?
3
00:36:52
Oh, there's I feel like, well there, most of them, I walk away. I completely block out because they're, I shouldn't say there in case anybody listens to this, they're all wonderful. And people are amazing
1
00:37:09
And their marriages are all going to laugh.
3
00:37:11
Oh, so many laughs. It's just, it's such a heightened experience on so many levels that people, it tends to bring out some not great sides of humans. So I, I tend to block out one kind of favorite story is I married two cousins. That was yes. So
1
00:37:39
They didn't know they were cousins.
3
00:37:42
I did it now. So I had planned this whole wedding with the mother of the bride, which happens a lot. So sometimes the mother just comes in and we're just doing it. And she was lovely. And I liked her. She was a total Spitfire. She was from Texas had money. Definitely. She was like, just here's money. And I was like, I like you even more. And the wedding day, I'm going through my timeline. And she comes up to me and she's like, so let's do the grandfather's toast. And I was like, oh great. Yes. Oh, is it? Eric has grandfather. Right. And she goes, it's both their grandfather.
3
00:38:21
And I went, I'm sorry, what? Yes, my brother's kid. And I mean, I, my face probably turned and she comes whipping that she's like, it is legal in 25 states. And I was just like Wild. And I was like, oh, okay. The best, the best part is that these kids live at Louisiana. But in Louisiana you have to have a blood test to get married. So they couldn't get married there. They had to come to Los Angeles or to California to get married. I was like, Their last logon tonight is we are family.
1
00:39:05
Well, I mean, what else could it possibly have been? Oh my gosh, Kelly, that's fantastic.
3
00:39:14
My favorite that's always better than a disaster. You know, they happen. But like, yo, this is just like a family dynamic, like, and that I really get into, it's like listening to the toes. And how are you connected here? And Ooh, who really like, you know,
1
00:39:29
So you like, you like finding the story still. I mean, that's, that's the common thread is you're still telling stories or you're still drying out the, the stories aware, what is the state of weddings right now? Like did it, has it gone? The direction of everything is totally scaled down now because of the pandemic?
3
00:39:53
No, I did two back to back last weekend and nearly killed me. And it was about 140 people and then 180 people and just partied dancing to their benefit. It's a hundred percent of the guests were vaccinated and they did make sure of that. So, but I mean, we have a vendor staff of 30, 40 people, which they also said all are vaccinated and they were outdoors. So it's this and that. I mean, I, I COVID test once a week cause I've got two small kids can't get back, you know, they're two and four. So it's, it's, it's wild.
3
00:40:33
I'm, I'm basically doing a wedding every single weekend because the best way to explain it is normally in a year I do anywhere from like 15 to 18 weddings. And in four months, right now, from July through the beginning of November, I'm doing 15 weddings. So it's just like, okay.
1
00:40:53
Yeah. Because people, Pope people postponed before and now they want to get them in before it show if we shut down again. Okay.
3
00:41:02
Yeah. Yeah. They've been engaged since, or we've been working since 2019. I have one in next week. That's on their fourth date. We just like pushed and I, and you replant it cause you have to get all the vendors on board to the new date. Replant it.
1
00:41:19
Yes. This is insane. But you know, I had to point out one thing you said that you got into this by like weddings, just, you booked two weddings. So you don't just book two weddings. You know what you're doing? I always like to point out when people like, like undersell themselves. Like I couldn't just quote books. You weddings, you Patrick. It's interesting that Patrick was the connector here, which is awesome because he's such a connector, but also you have, what is it that you love about it? Like why, what makes you good at it? And what do you love about it?
3
00:41:54
I think just I'm a real, like Gina, I'm a Virgo, I'm logistics. I'm I'm schedule oriented. I like, I also like the control. I like being a producer. I like being top show runner. You know, I I'm everybody's boss, which is a position I enjoy, but at the same time it's harmonious. Like I'm not. And I, I say this out loud to my clients. I'm like, I'm not a power position person. I'm not an ego-driven person. I just like to get it done on the best possible level and have all of us do our best possible. You know, it's like the photographer's not going to succeed unless I set them up to succeed.
3
00:42:38
So we've got to all be this great team. And that is that the vendors are my favorite part of it to be really honest. You know, it's, it's, the clients are, you know, the main aspect and we're executing what they want, but having all these different personalities and, and putting it all together and then sending it off and it being done. And it's really nice. Cause then once I I'm done, I'm not so sure
1
00:43:05
There's no lingering, like there's no followup wedding, you know, like day seven of the wedding, you know? Yeah. I know exactly why Patrick thought of you because what the whole apartment three thing was basically just a bunch of bozos, but then you guys, mostly you, you and Stephanie, well, no, but the get, get it done person was you, you were the person who said, let's have a group picture. Let's do this outing together. Right. Isn't that true?
3
00:43:41
I guess, I don't know. I, that, I don't know if I have those memories of being, but I, it would make sense. I feel like that is just kind of who I am in a daily life, you know?
1
00:43:56
Yeah. Because you, you organized some facet of whatever we did for showcase, like you rented the car or just, I have a great picture of you and Judy sitting in the front and the convertible. Yeah. You, I feel like you did that. And then maybe you arranged when we went to the beach, I feel like I didn't do any of that. And I just tagged along with you. So you've had the skill for a long time. You're a planner. How was your experience at the theater school? I mean, that's a huge question, but like, why don't you tell us, I'm really curious about your perspective of what it was like to be in the nineties at the theater school.
3
00:44:36
Yeah. That, again, listening to this podcast is great. I know people have said it's so therapeutic and it's like, it's just an explosion of peeling off layers. Like all of a sudden a show will come back to me. And I hadn't thought about in 25 years because I will say in LA I am around a lot of theater school people. We never, we never talk about it. It's just, we just have this common bond that makes us friends, but we, but diving in this world. So I've been thinking a lot about it. And I kind of feel like I had two experiences at the theater school, which is kind of the first two and a half years.
3
00:45:18
I really loved. I mean, I, I just have really joyful memories. I again, loved Rick Murphy's class. I was so just open to it all. And again, yes. And, and I loved yoga and movement to music. I thought it was ridiculous, but on the most fun level, and then it shifted and I would say it's when we start, it was the casting process. It was just, I feel like they pitted us against each other in such a way that I th the, the enjoyment just fell out. And I started stepping away personally. I know, like I got a wedding table job between my third and fourth year that was in town.
3
00:46:03
I had a whole new world
1
00:46:07
Around
3
00:46:10
And I just, I, yeah. And, and, you know, to let you said to Jean, it's like, when you just get cast and these terrible role after role, and you're not like, what am I working towards? And then in the classroom. Yeah, I just, there was, I remember Christina dare, she did Shakespeare write or voice. And I always wanted to be the lady Macbeth, the power house, the, you know, I stopped the affiliates and, you know, Juliets were ridiculous and not worth my time. And I was very vocal about this. And so was, she kept me in, as my scene was romance Juliet and the balcony scene, the worst scene with Chris.
3
00:47:00
And I remember, oh my gosh, I was on a ladder, a 12 foot ladder. You remember those black like separators? I don't know what you,
1
00:47:12
Yes. The partition things. Those little flats. Yeah.
3
00:47:15
Well, I see an adverse reaction right now. They put that up. That was my balcony, but I couldn't touch it because it was like, if you sneeze, it would all over. Chris Grover was on the other side of it, tried to act up at me and I'm trying to woo. It was so sad. And I just remember city and seeing all like, like faculty and just being like, they're seeing me in this light, and this is not the light that I should have a voice in what I want to free myself to, for you to see, and to judge me on, because you're going to, you're going to grade that essentially.
3
00:47:56
And anyway, that's like one of my, I would say negative experiences. It just, I, I never, I don't understand why they, they didn't work with us and lift us up and really say, oh, you that's, that's what you want to be. You want to be a powerhouse, tell you want to be the powerful, what? Great. Let's do it. Let's work on that. Every single scene you do be that character. Why not?
1
00:48:27
Yeah. And the psycho, the ex therapist in me is like, my mind is wild at work here saying like, maybe, perhaps Christine felt so something in her own life that she couldn't stand like her power. She, I feel like this, a lot of teachers, their own power, they felt so stripped in whatever reason, for whatever. I don't know why, but then it was like, Anne, Jean. And I were just talking about this, about acting out. So their way of acting out these teachers across the board, I think, was to, to not allow students the, the sort of growth blooming, blossoming experience that really would have been a, such a beautiful thing.
1
00:49:11
Like why withhold it? There's a lot of withholding, a lot of like, we're not going to let you, we're going to hold you, hold you back. And it, I don't know if it was supposed to make us stronger, but really, it just led to a lot of rage, addictions of eating disorders and like, come on. I think you're right. Like we could've, if we could have joined with our teachers and be like, oh, you would have been in the offense. Did you ever get to play lady M because you would be fantastic.
3
00:49:41
I did too. Gosh. And now I can't believe how much I studied Shakespeare. Now. I know nothing. That's great. But I feel like I'm one of the Richard's wife. I forget which, who I did her one of her monologue. And it was probably one of my favorite moments and who knows if I was good at it, but I didn't, but I liked doing it. And that's the whole, you know, it's like I wasn't outside of myself, judge. I was in it and portrayed man.
1
00:50:10
Great example, by the way of the wit of the grass is always greener phenomenon, because I think I did play lady Macbeth for a scene, or I, I remember doing a monologue and, and I'm, it's not like I remember this specifically, but I'm 100% sure that I would have been sitting at the audience going, I would never get cast as Juliet Kelly. So lucky. So, you know, it sits, it's its own Flipout cage that we put ourselves into in terms of, you know, this, this sometimes for people, a huge disconnect between who, who they think they are and hurt or how, how they want to be perceived and then how other people tend to pigeonhole and, and perceive them.
1
00:50:55
So, and that's also just true of life, by the way. Like, there can be a lot of that too. Like a lot of people feeling misunderstood, but you know, that, that, that inside in their core, they feel they are this person that they're. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know why you just give it a shot. I mean, you said you wanted to play lady. And what is the harm in allowing a child, student the process of trying out lady Macbeth? What is the heart? That is my whole question about like a conservatory. Is this like, what is the harm in building someone up? What are you afraid? We're going to get so big for our britches, that we're gonna, our head's going to explode.
1
00:51:36
We're going to become fascist. I don't, I don't understand. But
3
00:51:41
The judge made me think about how the teachers and all of a sudden it, for me, it kind of clicked in that first two years. I feel like we're our most supportive teachers, you know, it was Betsy and it was John Jenkins and Rick Murphy and they, they just wanted Patrice. They just wanted to see us succeed. And to exactly, just to have these little minds just explode. And then we got in, we shifted into these academia. It felt like world. That just, I mean, I just felt, I felt beat up a lot. Those last, you know, that last year and a half, for sure.
3
00:52:25
I did not. I did not. So that was a little relief. That's probably why my first and second year, so much maybe, you know, that it wasn't nagging at the back of my head and I could just play, instead of theory, the end.
1
00:52:41
I remember reading the same, we're reading the same improv class for your, what I remember. Right? You were, you were hilarious. I remember some hilarious in prompts with you and thinking, oh, okay, this, this woman is going against type in that. I saw you as this really beautiful sort of demure. This is looks only, I didn't know. But then you were really funny is what I recall and really fierce and really I'm a Spitfire yourself. And so it just makes me what I'm finding when I hear stories like this as, and, and think about all of us is I wish I could go back and say, and be the teacher then. And you know, say like, oh my gosh, you're going to be put into this box of like a Southern Belle.
1
00:53:25
Don't just rebel. Like you can rebel, but we just didn't have that. I mean,
3
00:53:31
That's funny. Yeah. That, that's very kind. Thank you. Like I reflected on all of this as well. I, the exact same thoughts, especially that last quarter of like Jane alderman and tying it to coming out to LA, like I would meet with managers and agents and they're like, okay. So like, what are you? And I was like, oh, oh, I could do all. I could do all, do everything. I could do drama and I could do comedy. Well, I could do accents. Oh, I can do Shakespeare. I could put on makeup at the 80. And they looked at me like I was a crazy person because it, and I think about that. I'm like, why didn't anyone say, Hey, Kelly, you're red haired.
3
00:54:13
Freckled, you're kind of quirky run with that. Be the, the, you know, that type of actor hone in on it, look, some jobs, get some credits, you know, have some weights with your team and then go in for all the stuff that you want to do. That's different from that. But I feel like they never, they never gave us our strength. They never said, this is what I see in. You run with it.
1
00:54:44
But do you think if somebody had said, this is what we think your type is, would you have agreed?
3
00:54:51
Probably not. It's a good point.
1
00:54:54
I mean, that's the thing it's like, it was, it was all about, for most of us, it was all about who we wanted to be so much more than who we actually were. And, and, and by the way, there's nothing wrong with having aspirational self. Maybe we are now who we wanted to be in some way, shape or form, but it just like it. Then if we were probably impossible to talk to, you know, in terms of like with the adults, trying to tell us what our lives and our careers were going to be like, so you did have an agent and manager in LA, but you just didn't book enough.
3
00:55:29
I had a manager, didn't have an agent. I had an agent in Chicago. Yeah. I just sit in, nothing clicked. I mean, I go out, I, I also didn't have the trait, the TV, I would take classes, I would do commercial. I also developed which I had a little bit of in school, just a real, just fear stage. Right. And so It's crazy. Like I walk into any social situation as well, and it's just like, the nerves are over. And so you walk into a room with everybody just staring at you, not wanting you to succeed for whatever reason.
3
00:56:13
And it just, yeah. So I think the fear really, I didn't have that young, you know, fearlessness that I did as a child, like, as I got older, it just became more and more constructing. And then I just finally was like, yeah, I can't I'm, I, I do enjoy now being behind the scenes. I will say that is something I I'm not, I like being the puppet master.
1
00:56:40
Are you interested at all? Because I'm thinking I'm like, whoa, you would be, I mean, I don't know, but do you ever have aspirations to produce like film or TV or, no,
3
00:56:50
I don't because it's so foreign to me and things that I don't know, kind of, they scare me. My husband is a producer and in the producing world. So I, and it's really interesting because at the end of the day, we'll we talk about our lives. They're incredibly similar and paralleled. They're just at different levels. And I feel hard at this for him and how, you know, it's still, it's a rat race. It's job after job. There's no. So, you know, I think right now I'm just gonna kind of do my thing where I'm at and I enjoy, I still love, you know, I mean, television nowadays is beyond.
3
00:57:30
And, and I used to back in the day go to a movie a week, you know, I just walked down to the Vista theater when I lived in silver lake and which is plopped down in the middle of the day and just watch a movie and I still love everything about it. I'm just, it's not a place for me to be in front of the camera.
1
00:57:50
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I cut you off earlier when you were starting to talk about how you loved the first two years, and then you were starting to say that the last two years was very specialized. And did you have a moment of, wait, is this what we're doing here? I didn't know that this was what we were doing.
3
00:58:11
I don't think so. You mean in the first two years?
1
00:58:14
No. In the second, because, cause that's how it was for me. It was when I got into that camera class that I went, oh, is this what we're doing? And I I've said many times, I felt like I was the only person who didn't know that that was coming. But, but, but it sounds like also you're saying that the techniquey stuff about the last two years or no, or you said it was casting. I don't know. Tell me, tell me what it was about last year.
3
00:58:40
Exactly. Yeah. It was a lot of the cast stayed, you know, it's all just shows and you know, who kept getting the good roles and who just didn't and, and just feeling like, I just, again, just didn't have a voice, which was, you know, frustrating and not finding the joy that I was in the first two years of, of the, the fun side of it all I did, you know, I was through, through like seeing her, you know, I'm, I'm going to do this, but I do have to say when the Jane alderman class came up, I was like, oh, okay. I wish we would've done more.
3
00:59:21
That, I mean, I will concur with every single person that's come through on this. It's just like, that is a whole year. That would have been amazing. And it just didn't, it was so touched upon on such a, you know, glossy level where, you know, like the commercial world, I just no interest whatsoever except for the money, you know, it's like, yeah, that didn't click with me. I was trying to be a, a truest, I guess, of the theater. And, and then you do the theater and you make no money and it's just like this hamster wheel. And there's one thing that nobody's talking about, which is really funny.
3
01:00:04
The LA people is when I moved here, we were all frustrated and not auditioning and not working and blah, blah, blah. And so we created a group called the living room. I don't know if you've ever heard about this Jen or yeah,
1
01:00:18
Yes, yes. Was Larry Bates involved?
3
01:00:22
It was not Larry. It was Patrick Dalton, Jeffrey Brown, Brian Kemet, Ryan Ketley. There's so many people that were on here. It was so funny. Everybody giving it back to Stewart. You remember Stewart, Wendy, Wendy Carter. He liked Goodman Christian husband, but we would, every week we would meet and Patrick's rabbi Adler. He was one we'd meet in Patrick's living room and we would work. We would do scene work. We would, I bring in casting directors to give us other, yeah, it was really, it was a cool. And then we did a showcase.
3
01:01:05
We did it. I don't know if you remember the geisha house, super fancy Brian when it was a bartender there. And so we got their private room because I did all these casting directors and directors and whatnot. And we did, instead of doing monologues, we did scenes and the seed work and it was, it was a blast. There was definitely some moments of previous, you know, show work or, you know, that I was like, oh, this is bringing back PTSD from DePaul. But yeah. So,
1
01:01:38
You know, what's so weird. What year was this? I think I was at the showcase. I think I came with Judy, I think Judy and I went, this was what year? Like 2000 something.
3
01:01:51
It had to have been. Let's see, I moved to LA in 2001. So it had be three years. So 2000
1
01:01:57
I was there. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm telling you right now. I remember being very impressed by the level of professionalism and the sort of ingenuity of the showcase because it was the first showcase that I was doing scenes instead of monologues. Wait, I remember being cool. Did people calm? Did you get a good response
3
01:02:18
House? And we, I mean, and then one of the scenes was like a five-person it was like a CNC. Yeah, it was really, I mean, I think a couple people got some work out of it, but at the end of the day it just felt good to do something in LA, have people come and not be a theater production. Yeah. That's so funny. I love that you were there.
1
01:02:40
I remember it. And I remember thinking, man, they're doing something nobody else is doing. Like it was like a Steppenwolf of LA in the, in the sort of in showcase world. Like it felt really organic. That is I. So when I think about the way I imagine that you survived theater school, I imagine it was in large part due to your relationships. You had a really tight knit group of friends who all pretty much moved to LA. If I'm, if I'm right and, and do that's what a community will do for you when you're in this lonely, what can, it's ironic how lonely acting can be as a profession, especially if your friends are actors and everybody's up for the same role and there's lots of competition, but that is something that the community can do is help you stay engaged with what you're doing and stay engaged with what you loved about it.
1
01:03:41
And instead of all of this dog eat dog, you know, there's, there's only so much pie and I want a piece of it. Do you still, are you still with all of those people? Are you still, I mean, you mentioned Patrick, but are you still friends with everybody
3
01:03:58
And that's, that is again, kind of reflecting through all this, the friendships that I've kept and have from there is, were theater school a thousand times over, I would do it again and again and again, as torturous as it was at times, for sure. For sure. Like, I mean, Judy is my ride or die forever. She's a sister, you know, and that's pretty wonderful to have that special of a human being.
1
01:04:25
Have you ever struggled with, you know, okay, so you're you have your Judy is your ride or die friend. Judy's had a lot of success. Has that been hard for you ever
3
01:04:37
In the beginning? I would lie if I'd say no now it's just, absolutely not. You know, now it's, I want her to have all the successes in the world and I would say it's been this way for a while. And I think that's how we got so close is that the competition was removed. And not that we ever were, we, I feel like also we were such different actors that it never felt like we would see up against each other, you know, in that way. But I mean, I was her date at the golden Globes, which she was like, it's just there.
3
01:05:24
That's fun. It's really fun. She was, she was on a whole thing with, oh gosh, the movie with George Clooney.
1
01:05:32
Oh, the Hawaii one, the, the, the, the, the descendants, yeah.
3
01:05:37
Descendants. They were on this whole awards world. And I was like, just had nothing to do with life. And she, I, her husband at the time was super busy as she was just like, just be my date to everything. And I was like, yeah, you know, and we'd be at these weird little cocktail parties and, you know, like alpha Cheetos or Jason. Oh, funny. And, but, but yeah, so it's just, it's kind of like, yes, girls succeed at develops, you know, I mean, she's had a great career, but she deserves even more. I mean, I went back to the moon, but I'm sure in the beginning, you know, if I drug up all the memories, there was definitely like, why, why is one person be successful versus another,
1
01:06:28
Oh yeah, it's completely human. I mean, you can, and two things can be true simultaneously. You can want to raw your best friend and feel, find yourself, make this false equivalence that, you know, you're, you have to compare yourself to this person. And, and, and if I'm not doing what they're doing, then I'm not successful. And yeah.
3
01:06:52
And she'll say this a hundred times over, and I think this is a real point is she would not be who she is without the people that she has had behind her. I mean, right from the get go, she had that manager, Chuck in Chicago at champion Mike muni, Leonard Roberts. I mean, he fought for them to become who they are and they are some of the most successful in our class. So he was a real important part to get her where she is,
1
01:07:28
The support, the support, like the support. So, so I think what I'm hearing is, and we talked about Gina and I also were talking this morning earlier about support. It's like, and I think it's amazing that she acknowledges that because I think it's true that like support goes a long way, a long way. And it, and, and it's not always just magic that someone's touched. I mean, it's hard work. They work their ass off and there there's a bit of luck, but there's a lot of support behind the scenes. Champions, people champion us in whatever we're doing. We find our champions and some in our class were had in my class, your class, you know, whatever had had more championing than others.
1
01:08:14
And that's just how I feel like that's how the world is too. I think it's hard when you're young, right. When you're young, you're just like, why am I not being for me? I'll speak for myself. Why am I not being championed? And then you learn like, oh, I'll champion myself and stuff. And then it, you really also learned that shit is not there. Like shit is just not fair. Sometimes like casting at the theater school was a lesson in shit is the opposite of fair. Yeah,
3
01:08:42
Absolutely. And you know, one's chosen over another or whatnot.
1
01:08:48
Casting is not fair. Like casting in general is like, you know, working at, I worked at a casting office in Chicago, just like, as a freelancer and like noticing. And I'm like, oh my God, this is the most random. If people knew the, the arbitrary, it's such a bizarre thing. It's just, but at the theater school, it's college and we're children and we want it to be fair because that's, we're also paying. Right. So you're paying to not to get treated unfairly. It's crazy. It's a crazy system.
3
01:09:23
Absolutely.
1
01:09:25
But you did do, I think you did at least three main stage shows. Right? You did the visit and that was at victory gardens, all that stuff.
3
01:09:36
Yeah. Okay. But Gina, do you know what I was in the visit? I was at a twin unit with Judy. We walked around with, oh, we were just talking about this because I was like, do you, I mean, what two girls,
1
01:09:58
Girls.
3
01:09:59
And we just would walk around and follow that girl, Mary, whatever her name was. And I think we had like three lines and I mean, I remember Nick bullying and I love him. I love you. Dad would get so mad at Judy and I, cause we just were like, we would just took her out. And because it was,
1
01:10:20
You went bonkers, like you were doing bonkers, which I thought was hilarious.
3
01:10:25
Oh, well we definitely were doing our own side show. And he would just be like, you're skinny. And I was like, and then he wanted us to shave our heads. This was amazing. We were like, though, we're 20 years old and this is a show. And so then he got all flustered and mad and we, so Judy had that white blonde crazy. And then I had those weird, like stunk streaks that I had just, And he was like, well, I, you, you both have to have the same dire hair brown. We went to Walgreens and we got these box brown in my nasty little studio apartment, dyed her hair, it turned purple and gray and all these like horrible fried it off.
3
01:11:09
We flicked it back. I have pictures. I'll send you the pictures and we have these little polar caps. And That was fantastic. So yeah, I'm in this great show, the visit as,
1
01:11:25
Yeah, I gotcha. Wait, where are you in more of the grease paint, smell of the crowd. Okay. Tell us about that.
3
01:11:32
I loved that. You know, it got a lot, it got a lot of grief, which I understand, and I, you know, you put 20 women together. There's gotta be some, some stuff, but I, it was Betsy who, again, she's, she's one of my, my, my top just, you know, in my heart. And it was fun. It was fun. And that's when I would say that Judy and I pretty much like became in sync. Like we were, and then Darryl Dickerson, who was also a really good friend of mine, she was like the sidekick for, and we just had a blast. I, you know, we went into it like, this is so silly. Why not just lean in and say, yeah, so we did.
3
01:12:14
So I liked that one. I was also in the women.
1
01:12:22
Oh, was everybody hated being in that show, every single person
3
01:12:25
It was recently. And we all know exactly. And it was again, 20 women and you have like three stars and then there's 15 of us just at there. I mean, there's literally photos of us just at their feet. And again, we had a hair thing. I don't know what it was just me. I think it was my way of rebellion against, but I had God platinum blonde and this like Bob or whatever. And she was livid. She was like, I cast this rule as a redhead, three lines might do. And she was already again, judge, to your point, like she was yeah.
3
01:13:09
Something onto me. And I was like, no. And I was like, Whitney, I don't care. I'm not dying my hair back. So they got me this wig, I look like Joan Crawford. I would walk around backstage with like wire hangers and be like, ah, it was so bad that the opening night I went and I got my hair dyed back red because the ego inmate could not go on stage with this horrendous wig. It was so, yeah. And then she had a sleep over. I just like these. Oh yeah. You never heard about the sleepover. Oh, We had a cast sleepover.
3
01:13:50
So again, it was like 20 women. And to my memory, I didn't have a fond experience. I am sorry if other people did, but they were not my favorite humans and I rent whatever. And so I waited tables and I said, yeah, I can't attend this sleep over. I need to make money. And I mean, she, I just, from that on out was, Hey, she just like, I think she probably had a poster in her office. I was like, I will take down this girl at any chance. I, we just, I never attended the sleepover. So sorry, I don't have any fun, like juicy stuff.
1
01:14:28
You, you did the, you probably did the right thing. Like that was probably, you know what I mean? Like you had to do what you had to do. Well, that's what I remember about you is that you, you were a very independent person in terms of your thinking and your actions and you didn't you in my mind, my perception, you didn't just go along with the crowd. You weren't that kind of a, that kind of a gal, like you did your own thing. And I really respected that. I thought, oh, just because someone looked and it was a really good lesson for me. Like, just because someone looks a certain way and that's from Texas actually does it seriously doesn't mean that they fit a mold. And if you try to force people into molds, they rebel, you're a rebel.
1
01:15:11
You're kind of a rebel. And I thought that was cool.
3
01:15:14
I think it's Jayda, you'll maybe find this out with your three. I was the youngest of three and I'm a big believer in child sibling placement and who you become because of that. And so I definitely, most of it comes from being that third child, just trying to get the attention and have a voice and rebel against it all and you know,
1
01:15:43
Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense by the way, wig may, should be the name of your solo show. That's great. Yeah. We're almost going to have to wrap up, but any other things you want to make sure you talked about or like observations or things you've learned that you're like, I would never do this again, or I would, I mean, it's interesting to me that you said you would do it again and again, because of the relationship. So it's really clear to me that your relationships in your life are super, super, the most important thing in terms of, because that was pretty, that was hell on earth a lot of times. So to do it say you do it again and again, because of the relationships, that means a lot, you know?
3
01:16:26
Yeah. I am a relationship person that is, you know, we've all hit pretty low lows in life. And I will say when you hit those low lows and who is there for you as your, your people, your who picks you back up everything, it's, it's like, I can't imagine life without that. And if I didn't have that, where, how low would I have gone? What, you know, don't ever want to go down that, but at the same time, it's like those people. And even if, like I said, I don't talk to them, you know, daily or weekly or monthly, we all know we have each other, there's a phone, we're all a phone call away.
3
01:17:06
That's like, Hey, and then just this, like the reconnecting. And I love it. I, you know, it's of course we have certain things I would like, I, you know, but I would never Harbor anything odd or weird about times that we were from 18 to 22, you know, it's like, we were just surviving, literally surviving. And you know, for the most part, I think we all turned out pretty darn good as humans. So maybe we're not rich and famous.
0
01:17:41
Yeah.
1
01:17:47
Hey everyone, it's Gina, just jumping on at the end here to say, if you haven't already please subscribe to the podcast and also please leave us a five star review. If you feel so inclined, if you really love us, please write a review. Having those reviews, whether they're good or not helps us with our algorithm in the matrix of it all. So it would be greatly appreciated. I survived theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and
1
01:18:30
Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thanks.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina
1
00:00:15
It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense
0
00:00:20
Of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
1
00:00:31
Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. This is Gina. Welcome to our 50th five zero F episode. Today. We're going to listen back to some of our favorite interviews, some highlights from conversations that we've just adored having. Thank you to all of you who have been supporting us along the way. And I hope you enjoy a look back at some great highlight these coasts. Oh,
2
00:01:06
How are you doing? You know, so it's not like in your twenties, it's a wild ride, right? It's like a roller coaster. It's twists and turns and your stomach hurts and you feel like there's a liberated and you felt it. Okay. It's in middle age. It's like a, like, you're just riding one of those trolleys kind of slow and there's are like in San Francisco and there's still Hills. And sometimes it is very beautiful, but a lot of times you're just slowly crawling towards your own day. Oh, the problem is, well, to preface this, to say, this is, this is, did I ever tell you the story about how I ruined someone's surprise wedding?
2
00:02:01
So I cannot keep a secret like that. Like when the secret stakes are high, I, I, if you're ever, if never, so my friend, this is crazy. So my friend, my friend's Fiat boyfriend called me and said, hi, I am surprising Sarah in a wedding. She knows we're going on an adventure. We're going on a hot air balloon ride. And we're getting married in the hot air balloon. Oh God, can you come and be the witness? And I was at, first of all, I'm scared of any height. I said, okay. I said, fine.
2
00:02:41
So he, this was so crazy. So I kept it. I was like, okay, here it comes. And I was like, seeing her and you know, we're not friends anymore. Shockingly. So I, I were okay. Beans. So I made it, she's supposed to dress up. She doesn't know happening, but the guy who does the hot air balloon is the minister. So he also serves as the minister. It's a whole thing. People do. Okay, fine. But you need a witness. And so I'm the witness. I'm like, this is, this is terrible. So we make it, she's in a dress, like a fancy dress. I'm in a fancy whatever outfit we have to drive to the desert.
2
00:03:20
Right. So we're in the car. And I S I literally said, we're going. I remember it's, it's hot, it's windy. And she's excited. Nobody, you know, I sat in the backseat of her fiance or boyfriend sat in the front seat. Cause I don't know why she wanted to talk or something. I don't remember why we're both in the backseat. And I just go, I can't believe you're about to get married to the hotter. And she looked like this and he, we don't know if he I'm sure he, it was really windy. So I'm not sure if he heard, but she heard. And she looked at me and I was like, well, what the, yeah.
2
00:04:13
People really still think that you could be sitting at Schwab's drinking phosphate going to say, oh wow, this girl's got talent. You can tell by your sweater. That's amazing. Yeah. And then he gets into his Studebaker drives down to Mayberry and yeah. You know, it's the biggest, I mean, when I found out that that Kylie Jenner made billions of dollars from selling ugly ass lipstick, I was like, wait, what?
2
00:04:57
What's what's what did I do wrong? I guess that was important Kardashians. No, you weren't born a Kardashian in Calabasas, wherever the hell they live. But the other thing is my niece wanted to contribute to her. GoFund me to make her a billionaire. And I said, if you contribute to her, go fund me to put her over the billionaire mark. I will no longer speak to you. Hope you had a go fund. Me, go fund me to make her the first billionaire teenager or whatever that heck it was. Yes. She had piece of wood started GoFund me to put her over the edge. Oh, not she didn't start it.
2
00:05:37
Somebody started for her. Some crazy teenage girl started it to try to get, make her belly. I mean, this is what we're dealing with here. This is the, this is what we're up against. This is what we're up against. So are you shocked that that Mitch McConnell and whoever Dicky addicted are trying to know we've got this, we've this going on? Gina. Wait, I asked, sorry. I don't have to go back to this. Go fund me. Okay. So did it make money? It work? Yes. It put her over the edge, but did it go to the girl who made the GoFundMe? No. It went to Kylie Jenner, but how, if I wanted to start a GoFundMe for someone or for Meryl Streep?
2
00:06:24
Normally, hopefully Meryl Streep would say, you know what, I'm going to pass at. I'm going to donate the money. But I think, and I am not, I am not a hundred percent. We'd have to do the fact checking on this. I think that it put her over the edge and I'm not sure she don't look, I don't want to get sued by the Kardashians. But all I'm saying is it was like this fad thing that caught on make Kylie Jenner a billionaire. Yeah. But okay. You're living in the essential thing and essential thing that I can't wrap my brain around. It's probably really obvious to everybody, but me, if I wanted to start a fund, GoFund me from Streep.
2
00:07:05
How on earth would I ever tell Meryl Streep or get the money to her? I'm not going to like go to the white pages and look up Meryl Streep, and then be like, Hey, I I'm raising a bunch of cash for you. Could I have your bank account number? Or what? I mean, I don't know how GoFund me works, but right, right. I think it's because it's going to this girl, maybe it was, and I kind of hope it was, but, but it, but I think it went to her company. I think they, they, like, I don't know. I know is that it was a huge social movement about, I would say five years ago, maybe four years ago. I don't know.
2
00:07:46
And my niece was like, I'm going to donate. And I was like, oh my God, no, you're not. I will lay my body down in this Watertower place. We were in the water tower place in Chicago shopping. And I said, I will lay down on this floor and not leave it in front of American girl until you promise me you're not going to donate what has happened. I'm like, well, we've learned two things here at least. Right. Number one, Kylie Jenner is a cult leader. Oh yeah. Yeah. The cult of beauty. The cult of personality. Yes, yes. Yeah.
2
00:08:25
Yes. It could really just be the Cole about her lips. Cause it does seem to be kind of all about her lips. It is. It's true. It's true. And additionally, I am now realizing that probably what happened with that GoFund me is that Kylie Jenner paid somebody to start that she says, I'll give you 10% of whatever you raise, because I've read things about those people that they don't, they don't pay their nannies or they, they stiff. They're the kind of rich people who get rich because they're real cheap. Oh, with everybody else except themselves, you know, what are we doing?
2
00:09:08
I mean, I mean, that is, that is see, I, my logic, my logic train stops. I never, I never went the full mile of, oh my gosh. She probably did pay this person as a publicity stunt and to get the money, but like the whole thing, oh God, see you really go to the dark, dark, dark side, which I appreciate because I'm sort of like, well, whatever, it's just a bunch of kids having fun. It's kind of, it's, it's kind of jacked up, but like it's not the worst and you're not. I'm like, oh, it's the worst thing. What's the worst thing.
2
00:09:55
Okay. So I did my monologue. My monologue was from a Nicky silver play. I don't remember which one. And I don't, and I think it was totally inappropriate, but it's just crazy, like a crazy hysterical woman. I not good. So I do my monologue and I'm totally nervous and I feel totally less than, and just not, I don't feel right. I feel wrong. Everything feels wrong about me. So after, after that, I, what I, I just immediately start drinking profusely because that's the thing that you should really do when you're trying to really help your self esteem is just start drinking profusely.
2
00:10:36
And so I was drinking profusely and who walks up to me, but John C. Riley walks up to me. He, he went to the theater school and so he was being very supportive and very whatever. And he walks up to me and he said, I just want to say, I really liked your piece. Great. That would've been the opening to so many other people would have taken that as an opportunity to network with a movie, a buddy movie star at the time and a nice guy by the way. But what comes out of my mouth is I hated boogie nights that comes out of my mouth.
2
00:11:22
Gina cheetah. That's got the worst part about it. The worst part is Gina. I had never seen boogie nights. Wow. I lied. I lied about seeing bookie. I had never seen boogie nights. I had never seen it. I don't know what happened to me. I, I, I went crazy. I was so ashamed of myself that I just started saying lying, insults. I don't know. I'm trying to get the, get the scene here. You okay.
2
00:12:03
Well, I'm guessing that what happened for you, you felt badly about monologue. And so when he said that thing to you, you felt it wasn't genuine. And he was maybe even mocking you. So you wanted to say something nasty to him, but he was being sincere. It turns out yeah, he, he was and the guy, so I say, I hated boogie nights. And the guy says, John C. Riley says, what any nice person would say, which is why, but I hadn't seen it. Oh my God. So what am I going to say?
2
00:12:43
So what I said was, I think it was chauvinist stick. I'm so embarrassed. It was chauvinist. And didn't depict women in a good way. I have no idea if that was true or not, because I hadn't seen boogie nights. So then he says, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. And then he introduced me to his wife who was lovely and I scurried away. So, okay. So I was mortified. I felt like the one person who gave me any attention at that showcase, I spit in his face, lied to. I mean, it's unbelievable that the idiot that I was, I was so embarrassed.
2
00:13:29
And so I just carried that shame for soul so long. And one day I said, I'm going to find John C. Riley. This was like in 2007, eight after my dad died and I'm going to try to make immense. So I go online, I go on Facebook and I try to find him. And I find who I think is him, but who knows? I didn't know what I was doing. And I write this long apology about self esteem and my drinking. And I get a response back from him. But I don't know if it's him saying, I got your message. Of course. I remember you, your monologue was great. But now looking back, I don't know if it was him.
2
00:14:09
It was some Facebook account. It could have just been some, some person with a fan Facebook page writing me back, Gina. So I still am embarrassed and I don't know. Wow. Wow. Did you feel good after you wrote the apology? Yeah. I, and I wish that I might still have it somewhere. I'm going to look. It was just like, listen, you said all these things to me that were nice. And I lied. I came clean about the whole thing, but I don't think it was really John C. Riley because chance Riley's not going to have like a Facebook, definitely have to take screenshots of that. And we'll put it up on our Instagram. That's, that's beautiful. And okay.
2
00:14:49
But the others, my other for that is like, yeah, maybe it was regrettable, but at the same time, it seems like one of the things that has emerged is if you had gotten a lot of attention and probably moved to, I, I'm not certain that our story would have been one of the ones that went the right way. You know what I mean? Like I was actually just thinking about this this morning. I was thinking about how many female actors that I have loved over the years. And then every once in a while, I'm like, whatever happened to that person. A lot of it got revealed in the Harvey Weinstein of it all because we learned how many careers he ruined.
2
00:15:35
But I think, I think that there's a bit Jillian, other more like mundane reasons that, that, and it's things like that. I mean, not necessarily like embarrassing yourself, but you go down this path and it's like, it's, you're not ready for it. And then you blow it up in some kind of way. And I think if it, and then you blow it up, then you feel maybe inhibited from ever trying to return to it, which is not the position that we're in. So I guess, cool. No, that makes me feel better because really I was like, so ashamed that I blew, but I feel ashamed, but also looking at it now and hearing you, I am grateful that I happen sooner rather than later.
2
00:16:16
It's not like I was on set. And like, you know, I don't know it was shot someone or did something crazy or like overdosed on drugs and, and, you know, you know, whatever, but it was not. And apparently he's like the nicest person that's what hooks was saying is the night he said, you're the only person in America. Is that a bad interaction with John? Totally
0
00:16:41
My fault.
1
00:16:50
One of the questions that boss and I ask most often of our guests is what made you want to be an actor? What led you down this path? And we got some really great answers. So take a listen to Jeff Brown, Stephanie White, and Sean got and talk about this very
3
00:17:06
Thing you want to know. I was, I was yes, actor early, early on, which I think was detrimental to my work creatively as an actor personally. Why? Well, I decided, I mean, I remember being a kid and being like, everyone's like, you can be whatever you want when you grow up. And I was like, well, if I could be anything I want, why not be an actor? Like what, what's, what could be more fun than that? That sounds perfect. So
2
00:17:44
Fence mechanism, a survival tactic. And so the fortunate side of that is with that, I developed a, a very refined skill of observation and, you know, add activity. Is that a word, an ability to adapt? Because I had to, I had to, it was tough at the time, but looking back, I'm so glad because it's, it's, it's it's thread that, that, that ability is threaded itself through, through my whole life. But what I'm thinking about is having that many siblings has to be a big part of your sense of humor.
2
00:18:29
All of my memories about you from the theater school, all relate to hilarious things that you've said or did, are you the funny one in your sibling group? No, no, no. Nothing like,
3
00:18:44
Amen. We're all the funny ones in my family. I mean, I don't, I don't think, you know, I try, but w w we, we all jockey to be the funny one in one way or another, maybe a couple, maybe two or three of us, more than the others. A little bit, but like, we're, we're constantly the thing about being a big family that really helps and really helped my acting a lot is timing. You like, you learn that, like, you've got one narrow window to six people or eight people when my parents were there and you're all trying to like crack each other up, particularly world teenagers and stuff.
3
00:19:26
And we're trying to crack each other up. You've got about a quarter of a second to get your joke in, to maximize. If you're going to get laugh, to be able to say it before somebody else says it, if you miss it, it's gone. And so you, you learn timing that way. And that helped me immensely when I started doing, doing work on camera and like auditioning for, for sitcoms and, and, and a lot of commercial work and stuff like that, where, where comic timing was, was incredibly important. And it's one of it's, it's a, it's a massive strength of mine. And yet another strength that the theater school more or less didn't give a shit about.
3
00:20:07
I mean, they didn't, nobody was, nobody was like, patting you on the back saying you've got great comic timing. You know, like if anything, it was, it was the opposite. It was like, stop trying to go from the last stop trying to get, yeah, God forbid, we get laughs. Right.
1
00:20:29
We have found that a lot of people were motivated to go to a conservatory based on the level of engagement that they experienced with theater in their high school. Here's a great story from Rollo. Romig
3
00:20:46
The theater almost by default because it was the first thing that I really enjoy doing. And that I seem like I was good at both at the same time. And like, I was good at math, but I hated math. I didn't get it. And so, so that was just what I went for. But, you know, my school, my high school had like 300 students in it. And so yeah, I did really well in the high school that was, you know, very like big fish in a small pond scenario. And so, but then on the other hand, the weird thing was like the drama teacher at my high school was really gung ho and she treated us like professionals and she treated us, like we were all going to go into the theater, even though it was weird, it was not a performing arts school.
3
00:21:42
It was just like your normal sort of like Catholic high school. But she was like in her own universe where she was like, no, when you're in my shows, you are at a performing arts
2
00:21:52
High school. Wow. So wait, she was waiting for Guffman. She was Christopher guest.
3
00:21:59
Great. She was wonderful. You know, and she, and the funny thing is like, there were students from my school who became very successful in this tiny school. So like a couple of years older than me was Keegan Michael Key. And he said before that she was, and I knew him well at the time. And she said before that, that, I mean, he, he said before that she was like the formative influence, like she's the one who got him into music and drama teacher. And so, and he was really encouraging to me to, you know, like I remember like when he was already in drama school, I think at the university of Detroit.
3
00:22:41
And I remember like visiting him there, he showed me around and he was great. And like, you know, he kind of made me, I don't wanna blame him, but he did make me kind of feel like I could do it. One
1
00:22:52
Of the biggest obstacles to getting into theater school is the audition. Some of us were better prepared than others, both for what we were going to do, but also for what we were going to see when we were at these auditions, take a listen to Shayna from, and Larry Bates talking about auditioning.
2
00:23:09
You remember like Carnegie Mellon when you said Carnegie Mellon. Right. Do you remember that? Yeah, well I did musical theater there, so, which was very different. So I I'm a singer, so I, I didn't know what I wanted to do if I wanted to go to straight. I knew I wanted to be like a serious actor, which is funny now because I'm a comedian, which is like ridiculous, but I definitely auditioned for the music theater department at Carnegie Mellon. And I'll never forget, there was a ballet audition. Okay. So like, how are these kids? Like, weren't, you know, we weren't dancers, but you had to do the dance audition. And I just remember sitting there and like the, everyone was stretching, you know, like getting real serious and just stretching.
2
00:23:51
And there, some people were wearing like, like I was probably wearing sweat pants, but like this girl was wearing tights and a leotard and all of her pubes were out inside of her telling me she was like, stretching, like led up in the air, like, and just, and I just, you know, I was like 17, like, Ooh, like, oh my God, I probably didn't even have pubic hair like mortified, and I'll never forget it. And I had
3
00:24:20
To drive to new Orleans, which was like four hours away. And my speech teacher gave me two, two plays. One was my children, my Africa. And I think the other one was like, whose life is it anyway. But one of them was about a guy who was a quadriplegic is, is from neck down. Right. And pear. Okay. Yeah. So he's a quadriplegic. So that was also very full of myself. So I'm like, oh, I'm just going to do this. I'm going to, I'm going to do the monologue, the quadriplegic. And again, and again, I didn't, I didn't read
4
00:24:55
The play. I didn't read the play. I didn't have the concept of reading the play.
3
00:24:59
So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do that. I'm just going to sit there and just talk with my head and they're going to love, they're going to love me. They're going to love me. So I'm like, yeah. That's. So I work on that monologue for like two weeks, get in the car to drive to new Orleans. And I just go, you know what, Larry, maybe you should do something where you're a little more in the car ride. Yes. So I'm learning
4
00:25:24
The monologue from my children, my
3
00:25:26
Africa on the car ride to new Orleans. Okay. So Larry May have felt like
1
00:25:38
He could get away with doing that because he had a lot of experience in high school doing speech and drama, but let's take a listen to Ryan Ketley to learn about what his experience was like. Having literally, never done a play or audition for anything in his life before coming to his theater school audition.
3
00:25:58
But I never, I just asked so many people, I'm like, how do I do this? What do I do? You know, I was living with like my non-acting roommates and I would perform it for them. And they'd just be like, oh yeah, that's great. So how did you memorize, memorize all those lines? So I laugh about the, the audition because I walked in, it was the large movement room, John, I think John Jenkins was there. I know John Bridges was there, maybe Melissa Meltzer and Jim Mostel.
3
00:26:43
Right. And I had no idea what to expect. I walk, I walk in and you know, it's empty except for a chair in the middle of the room. And I kinda looked at the chair. I'm like, I've never done this monologue sitting down. I'm thinking to myself, like, what do I do with this chair? So, I mean, I didn't, yeah. I just didn't know. And I mean, I was so nervous and, you know, just picture those four, especially Austel hop, just sitting there staring at me. So I grabbed the chair to kind of move it. And Jim, from, you know, all the way at the other end of the room, he's just like, put the chair up stage.
3
00:27:26
I didn't know what that meant. Kidding you. I was like, I didn't, I was looking around and he's like, put the chair upstage. And so I kinda like I've moved. I don't, I don't remember what I did, but he literally had to say up by the other wall, you know? So I was like, okay, great. So, and you know, and I mean, they must've just been like you guys, like, are you kidding me? You didn't know it.
1
00:28:00
In contrast to Ryan's experience, we have also interviewed plenty of people who were acting ever since they can remember. And just because somebody is born, wanting to be an actor doesn't mean they come from a family of performers. In fact, sometimes they come from a family of rugby players, listen to this story by Amy Farrell, that
2
00:28:20
Annie thing was my dad who was that he was like a rugby player, construction worker, Irish motherfucker. And he was like, oh, what the fuck? What are you doing? What's his acting shit. He came to every rehearsal for Annie and sat in the back. He never said a thing like big. I just sit in there, never said a thing. And then one day we were driving home in the big suburban. He goes, Amy, that same with that with the dog, like I kid. And he got fucking love that dog. I don't believe it. I believe you don't love that dog. That dog is going to be everything to go into the backyard and we're going to practice. And we, Tony soprano acting coach before every performance of Annie, we did a complete rugby warmup in the backyard.
2
00:29:02
Cause that's all he knew
1
00:29:06
Was going to do a super cut of every time somebody brought up the marketing department on this podcast. We have many of us have said that the only way we ever found out about the school that we wanted to go to was because they sent us something in the mail and how there should be statues of the marketing department directed on the conservatory campuses. But let's hear a different kind of getting to know your school story from PJ powers feels
3
00:29:34
Authentic about this place. And I, and I loved Chicago. I grew up just outside Detroit. So I'm, you know, Midwestern boy. So it, it just felt, it felt right. And what's funny is so that, that weird experience I had standing in the lobby of like, oh, there's no one actually here for me happened again. When I came back to audition. Cause like I flew into town by myself. I'm like, thanks, mom and dad, I just, just, you know, good luck get on a plane and took a cab to the theater school, like on a Friday. And the audition was Saturday morning and they were supposed to have a student host me for the night. Oh yeah, yeah. Or, or in their apartment or something.
3
00:30:14
And so it was December. So, you know, people were on break. So there's not many people around the building. So again, I showed up and they're like, Ooh, yeah, we dropped the ball. There's no one to host. I'm 18 years old. I'm in Chicago. And I'm like, okay, where do I stay? Pull up the
2
00:30:31
Mat and room for three.
3
00:30:33
They just started like walking around the, the lounge there. And they're like, Hey, they might be willing to have this dude crash on his couch. And still Jessica, Jessica something I'm forgetting her last name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was like, yeah, I'll take you. So she, she took me to dinner at salt and pepper and I like crashed on her couch audition. The next,
1
00:31:06
We have also talked to people who really didn't know what to expect when they came to a big city and to a theater conservatory, listen to Tate Smith. As he talks about his first day at theater school,
3
00:31:19
Sean Spratt was from San Jose. And then you had like hunter, Andre from Florida, who is like 50 years old as a freshman, you know, and you had Joe Jonas who had, and some of these people had done like movies and commercials and stuff, and people from Texas and Detroit and dancers and, you know, people that were smoking and wearing leather vests and fedoras had pagers. And I'd like to what is going on
0
00:31:50
1
00:31:59
Made it into theater school. We've gotten past our first day. We've some of us have gotten acquainted with for the first time with things like voice and speech and movement to music and pelvic clock and Feldon Christ and Linklater. And what we all get really excited about almost universally is when we're first going to be cast in something, there's a lot of anticipation around getting cast. And there's a lot of unsurprisingly disappointment there to people who got cast and things that they did not want to be cast in people who did not get cast and things that they did take a listen to Jen Kober and Eric Slater talking about to such experiences.
2
00:32:39
Like I get that. I had a lot of tricks, you know, being when you do comedy there's tricks, there's, there's a little Rolodex of things you can do that are going to get a laugh, you know, repeating things and, and, and things like that. And, and I, I knew all of those tricks and I was very good at them and I understand them wanting to, you know, pull that back and get me into something that was more organic and more natural. But that's not what it felt like. It felt like they were just trying to like pull away everything. That was me and make me into this, this sort of neutral actress, which isn't what I wanted to do it. And they kept casting me in these 10. I was in a production of the birds in a workshop, in a fucking classroom.
2
00:33:22
It was like a Greek era. Stephanie's yes. Yeah. It was awful. It was painful. It was awful. And it was directed by Rob chambers who was one of the most incredibly talented directors that, that school ever fucking produced. He was fantastic. I still know that cat to this day, I hang out with him. He's a great fucking director, but, but, but we're doing the birds as, as like a fucking, the workshop. Like, you know, Bella is sitting in the fall asleep because the room was so hot with him because it was the middle of the fucking winter. And we're dressed in leotards like Burke, Dallas, like a beach, looks like a penis on my face and the show.
2
00:34:02
And I played, I was the king of the birds and I played it like Danny fucking Devita. I was like birds. Like they hated me. They hated me so much and anything I was doing and they weren't ready for me as a fucking bird, like who looks at me and says, yep. Bird. Like, I don't understand. So it was, it was annoying for me to be there because I didn't feel like they understood who I was. I didn't feel like they wanted to understand who I was. I don't feel like they wanted me to bring me to what I was doing. And that felt very stifling and confusing. And I wasn't a happy cat when I was there.
2
00:34:42
Well, so it's a good thing. You didn't stay. But
3
00:34:48
The adding machine was one of them. I really wanted to be in that one. And I really wanted to be in the seagull, like really bad. And I, that one hurt my feelings. I got my feelings that was Bella. And I, I remember talking to her, like go making an appointment and talking to her in her office after not getting it. And just, and I waited for the show to open and I saw it and I was just like, you know, can I talk to you about it? And she knew I was coming. Right. So I sit down and I was just like, so what's the problem. What's your problem with me? Why couldn't I be in that show? And her response was like, I didn't want you in it.
3
00:35:28
And I was like,
1
00:35:36
One of biggest memories from being at the theater school and being upset about casting is one I'm really not proud of, but in the spirit of trying to be truthful and owning it all, I will just say, yes, it was vandalism. Yes. The glass shattered. Actually there is no, but it was just bad, but I did
2
00:35:58
Three to six months anyway. So my point is what, what, in some ways was worse or as damaging as getting cut was getting these shit parts every single time. Every single time I just yellow boat was just like a fun experience. But I was like in the chorus essentially. So, so it all culminated for me. When I kicked in the door, right. The door I was away, I was away. But I heard about, you told me about it. And Russell told me about it. I had kids. Did anyone ever, did you ever get busted? Nope. And they're not even in that building anymore.
2
00:36:38
So I can't have the statute of limitations has expired. No, but it was the fi, remember how we used to go wait for the cast list? That's the worst? The worst. What was that bar? That Irish bar like a, a block away Kelly's was it called? Kelly is Navy Kelly's and wait for the cast list to come up. And then we go, so my very final term of my final year, I got another workshop and I kicked in the door.
1
00:37:10
Okay. That was bad. But in my defense, I will say, I am not the only person who gets this passionate about doing a play. Listen to another story from Rollo. Romig about his high school drama teacher and man, she made it.
3
00:37:24
So this teacher made it so exciting to like, you know, she made us feel like what we were doing was the most important thing in the world. And she had really high standards. Like I remember the first show that I was in with her when I was a sophomore was south Pacific. And it was like the night before we opened. And she was really unhappy with the level of focus coming from the chorus. She was enraged about it. And she started screaming. We were in the, like in the gym, which had been made in the auditorium. You know, it was all set up with folding chairs and everything already. We were ready to go and she just like lost it.
3
00:38:06
And she just started screaming at us in the gym, like screaming at the chorus in particular,
2
00:38:12
Like, what are you doing? This show starts
3
00:38:15
Tomorrow. And while she's yelling, she's picking up metal cores incurred over her head and just shucking them across the room,
2
00:38:26
Or they're flying into other folding chairs
3
00:38:29
And crashing if he does this over and over. And like, and I remember some of the parents were like, not happy about this
2
00:38:38
Fucking around.
1
00:38:46
There is one story about how somebody dealt with their casting situation, that tops, every other story we had to include it, take a listen to John Cabrera,
3
00:38:58
The lovers together. And, and we both again experienced the defeat of being in the, in the workshop pool. My reaction to that was a little different from Gina's. But, and, and so I, I approached, you know, it was like, Hey, I got an idea I want to do. I want to do this photo shoot where I want to sort of through a series of, of images. I want to recreate my experience, discovering that I was cast in merrily, we roll along.
4
00:39:41
And so we did this whole photo shoot with
3
00:39:44
Me, like auditioning then me like, yeah. Then be like walking up to the door, be looking to see where my name was, then me like falling into the door, sliding down the drone. And then, and then when I did that, I had those photos developed. And then I printed them all onto white crew, the loom t-shirts that I got from Kmart or wherever. And I put all of them on one after the other. And then I put like my main shirt over the top of it. And I showed up, you know, to that day. And people were looking at me like, what's, what's wrong with that guy? Like, there's something going on with JP as he put on some weight or, you know, cause I was like really puffy, you know?
3
00:40:27
And then everyone was going around the room, they were going around the room, doing their thing, you know, and everyone was looking at me like, because everybody's got like
3
00:41:08
And so they got to me and I stood up and I was like, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about this, you know, broken dreams thing. And you know, and I, I realize it's true that I do have a broken dream that I want to share with the class. And then I just proceeded to remove t-shirt after t-shirt and threw the t-shirts to people. And cause everyone was dying, laughing, including Betsy Hamilton. And they all wanted the t-shirts. Right. Like they, they were like, they were, you know, so I'd like toss in people t-shirts across the room. By the time we got to the end of it. And like Betsy was like on the floor. And of course she knew what I was saying, which was, I really, really, really don't want to buy, but she also couldn't deny that like brilliant.
3
00:41:58
I, you know, that I, that I, well, that she wanted that she, that she walked into that.
1
00:42:10
So let's say you're one of the people who was pretty happy with how you got cast and did it on a main stage show and did get a lead part that did not guarantee that there were not going to be any onstage calamities, take a listen to Sarah Shera par telling her story. Super funny. Okay. And, and,
2
00:42:30
And I was thinking about Lee Kirk, this, my cousin Lee Kirk was in it. Sean Gunn was in it. JP Cabrera was in it, Alex. I mean, and, and, and, and, and Bradley Walker and that, that play Kendra through. And that, that was, that play was epic. It was all I knew that was my favorite place for sure. That I did. Although, full of calamitous moments of, of outer tear and destruction. Did you get dizzy on that rake stage too? No, I got, I got sculled. I got to horrible things happen in the show I have to. Okay. So the first one was, there's always a show at the end of like one scene, there's like a coin toss. And then that determines what the next scene is going to be. And we had to run off stage. It was a rainstorm. We had to run back onstage wet.
2
00:43:13
So we got dunked with water off stage and ran back on. And I can't remember, Stan, I'm such a crumb. He was a lovely stage manager. He had long kind of Auburn hair and he was just adorable. Oh, yes.
1
00:43:30
It'll come to me.
2
00:43:33
Hair. You're with me. Okay. I can picture him, but I can't. So I remember he had told the, the, the kids, I say kids cause what other, th th th the kids working crew, make sure you put relief, warm water in at the top of the act, put hot water in the bucket at the top of the app so that when we dunk them in water, they aren't freezing. And, oh, no, whoever neglected to do this. So did it at the end of the act. And I ran off stage and literally had a giant bucket of scalding water poured on top of me. And I had to run immediately back on stage and finish a scene that was alarming,
1
00:44:17
Scott horrible. And how far along were you on stage? I was on stage
2
00:44:21
Then for another few minutes, and then we did the coin toss, but I just looked at Kendra and like, you're doing the next scene. I was like, this is not because I couldn't go on. I was like hyperventilating. I'm like, I mean, it's like burn cream and my line. And then I had, like, I had like a scene or two to recover, and then I had to go back on. But that, because it was like the potential to do like eight different plays or whatever, the way that play was set up. But that wasn't the most terrifying moment. I will, the most terrifying thing that happened that show. So there was a whole big picnic scene. We were all, I remember this all on that hill. And Gus, the whole thing is about the extra guy. I think it was Bradley's character. An extra guy shows up. So we were one short we're, one short of everything. And all of the dialogue in that scene revolves around the one shortness and goddammit.
2
00:45:07
If I didn't open that picnic basket and it was fucking empty, there was like a napkin and two plates, and I'll never forget. And this is what I was thinking of liquor. Cause like I was really, I was really tight with those guys at the time and, and I was running the picnic. So all the dialogue was motivated by me, motivated by prompts about the things and about the lack of things. And I remember opening it up and looking at it being like, there's nothing in here and this is that the reskin, like there's people out there. And I turned to Sean, Sean, and go, and he was playing my boyfriend staff and I'm like, Stafford, could you go to the car and see if there's a bank in the com.
2
00:45:48
And I just remember looking over and seeing Lee Kerr, cause he could tell him he just went and put his hands behind his head and lean back. Like I can't wait to see how Sarah gets out of this one. I'll never forget that fucker. It was so funny. I mean, it was like the most panicked and we just had to basically make up the entire like, and then I remember seeing that same stage manager whip off his headset go poking around, trying to find, and then like, you know, three minutes later Sean comes walking out. I was like, oh, this is what you're looking for. I'm like, oh, it's super, thank you so much.
1
00:46:31
If the presiding memory for Sarah was about getting scalded in the show, there is another person whose presiding memory is actually about Sarah. And so let's listen to Bradley Walker just
3
00:46:45
When we're on this park bench, she's sitting on the bench and I'm kneeling behind the bench, sort of with my arm over it, like leaning on it. And we're having this prelude to a kiss, a scene and we were in the mural rescue and we're not miked and that's a big house and she was just speaking, just speaking normally. And just for a minute, I was completely taken out of the scene because I could feel all the resonance of her voice in the wood. Like, I mean, like she was her voice was, and she wasn't screaming.
3
00:47:26
She wasn't booming or belting. She just had the resonance and that frequency. And she filled up that hall and you know, we all could, we could cheat it if we couldn't, if we couldn't do it legitimately, we had our tricks, but she was just making that bench vibrate. And I, for whatever reason, I've always remembered that just what an amazing voice
1
00:48:00
Actors are often tasked with playing roles that are so far outside of their own experience, that they can be unnerving. Let's listen to another story from Ryan Kelly, Nicky, Nicky, silver. I love that play. I love at play so much. I love that play
3
00:48:19
And I'll always love it. It was, it was, that was the first full play. Cause the intro we kind of did, like, I don't know, we did like a one act and then we switched roles and we did the second act. So the intro wasn't like a full play, but I did raise an, a captivity and I I'll never forget it. Sean Gunn was in it with me. I was in it with him and he was, he was so good in that play. I'll never forget. And he's such a great actor and such a cool guy, but I have a scene where I play a gay prostitute and I'm making out with Sean Gunn, like rolling around on the floor. And, but like one of the, I think it was probably, you know, one of the first shows where we had audience, I had my college buddies and an ex-girlfriend sitting in the first row, you know, first grade sitting in the, you know, in the classroom, in the room there.
3
00:49:14
And they had no idea what to expect. I didn't tell him anything. I mean, they they'd never seen me act. They, you know, they're couple of the guys were like, you know, X jocks or whatever. And they're just like, what was that? They were like, clearly, what was that?
0
00:49:34
You know, they didn't know what to say after the show.
1
00:49:42
Okay. We've talked a lot about acting and actors and acting training, but theater school has a lot more disciplines than that. Including directing and set making and lighting design and costume and makeup. Let's listen to a story from Nick Boling about one particularly ambitious project he did.
3
00:50:02
So we, we were given an assignment. We had this class called, you know, con fab or something like that, collaboration, which was directors and designers and how cool it would have been if there could have been actors in that as well. But then that would have been the entire school. And that would have been a whole, you know, an enormous thing. That was one of the challenges. But anyway, concept, we were given an assignment to kind of work on a play called an opera called Triston. And he's old, his old day, I think is what it's called. And you know, it's this very passionate Wagnerian opera. And I was working on it with Kevin. It was just the two of us. And we were given a room over in the annex to, to design an idea, right?
3
00:50:46
So we came up with this idea of this room, filled with water, where there would be two naked bodies, two naked bodies, and then a burning ice moon. We wanted a burning ice moon in the room. The entire room would be black and there'd be come crystals sparkling through the whole room. And then this ice moon, we Burnie and pieces of what turned out to be plastic. So many wrongs burning and dripping down into the water, hot burning plastic, stopping in the water.
3
00:51:26
And I'm talking eight over a foot of water in this room. Now let me tell you where this room was located directly above the computer lab while nobody told us we could do that. Nobody told us we couldn't do it, Kevin, you know, we've we leak, we put stuff down to leak-proof the room. This is where Kevin was really amazing. He just was like, we can do it. And we get, and then we build this ice moon out of such a I'm sure there was something very toxic about this out of, you know, the plastic things that go around a can of soda, the things that are killing the animals and the turtles are stuck.
3
00:52:11
So we put them to good use. We, we put them inside this ice cone. That was, I mean, seriously, maybe. Well, I'd probably it's figured in my head, but maybe it was like 15 inches in diameter, whatever it be. And we put tons of them in there. And then when we did it, we lit the thing and it burned into the middle slowly and this, and it burns these little things off and go take this moon was melting. This ice moon was burning and freezing cold and drinking at the same time. You know, it's funny. Let me just say this. There was other smells to be involved because the room, the water had been sitting there for a few days with a bit of a, and that there were naked bottles.
1
00:53:03
So we've talked a lot about what people did in theater school, but we haven't really talked about the point of our show, which is how people survived. Many people survived on account of their friendships, the relationships that they developed when they were in theater school. That's certainly true for me. And for many people that we've talked to, let's listen to a story that both talks about that. And a particularly interesting acting exercise with David
3
00:53:33
That you're in the ensemble family mode during rehearsal. And it felt like kind of during a production, but then it was right back to, you know, this really intensely bizarre, like John there's no better, I guess, adverb than mind fuckery of, and, and it was, it was, I'm very grateful and many great, true friendships came out of that time because when you go through something that intense and that trying, but we, we, we, I would love to tell a quick story if I can, because we were kind of, we weren't kind of, we were absolutely fuck ups. We were in trouble a lot because it's no mystery that I had a pretty intense substance abuse problem in college.
3
00:54:19
And John had a pretty serious attitude problem in college. And neither of us dealt well with authority, although we loved being directed, which has always been a paradox with us. Like we love great directors. They get in and like help guide us and shape things. But at the same time, we are the first people to, you know, get our backs up sometimes. And I, and I remember John and I were so frustrated that some of the people like he, he, there was this, this feeling of like posturing or presentation that always felt in authentic to us. And we wanted, you know, Chicago, we want to rub real dirt on our faces and smashed glass, and we're going to get in there. And, and we were doing a scene together from Glen Gary, Glen Ross for second year scene study work with Joe
3
00:55:07
It was the Moss era now seen at the Chinese restaurant. John is just needling into meta, like, you're going to, you're going to get in on this heist or I'm going to ruin your life. And we loved, like, we got into that so much. It was all space work. And we're in generally John and I were in, I was either in rave clothes or John was in some tight Bob Marley thing. And, and so we had this big, special guests coming to the theater school who was going to do a scene study workshop. And it was F Murray Abraham. And I'll never forget. We were all so excited, big fans. We go, they did it at a separate location on campus. And it was where it was where nobody cheated.
3
00:55:51
And he,
5
00:55:54
He goes, he blew through the fees
3
00:55:56
That he was working on so quickly. And he was getting frustrated, like stop with the bullshit, stop with the presentation. Like let's work these. No. So he was also like not giving, like he would give a really incisive note and then would be like, all right, now, fuck off and do better in life. You didn't want over preparation. He wanted this to be like a malleable Play-Doh eat kind of moment where we could. So we were part of that event, John and I were just sitting in the back row, probably like, just like, whoa, this is so cool, dude. Like that's every brand I'm doing seeds. And he looked to the crowd. He's like, is that all you got? Cause they had prepared. I don't remember four or five scenes for him.
3
00:56:39
Yeah. It was like, it looks like, well, it was like two from each classroom. And, and then we had like a break and the teachers were kind of looking around at each other like, well, that's all I had. And Dave, you went to it's Loic turn to me and John and slow. It goes,
5
00:56:56
You guys, can we do it, John? Can we do it? I was like, yeah, let's do it.
3
00:57:01
We had no prop prepper, everyone else's in costumes that they've got their props that John and I hopped up with. We, we may do right. We got a bottle that we brought from someone else's seen some cups and we jumped up there and we did this. We did the scene where F Murray had recently done the piece or he was familiar enough with it that he could kind of jump in and, and do with this. But I was so proud that day, even though I knew what F ups we were. And even though I knew that I was, I knew that the work we were putting into and the discipline and the, and the, and the love we were putting into building these characters together and how much we loved playing off one another was, I knew in that moment, this is something I'm going to do with this guy for the rest of my life.
3
00:57:44
And sure enough, we've gone on to do films, two films together, outside of school. We continue to collaborate. I knew in that moment though, I was like, this guy I'm holding onto him for the rest of my life. Dude, I to, I want to jump in because that was such a, that was, first of all, it was, it was an amazing experience that we were like, we were like greyhounds, just ready to run. And, and we were also, we didn't realize that. So I'm going to, we talk about surviving the theater school. I don't know where to start, but more importantly, I don't know where I should stop. So you guys got to shut me up. So, so I ran, I got that bottle from my roommate who drank Jamison, like all the time. So I ran across because we were in Seton hall, not Seton hall, but a sanctuary.
3
00:58:29
And I got the bottle on, it came back and Dave and I were getting ready and we do this, we do the scene. And I knew, we knew that F Murray was going to just like, give us a note and dismiss us. So he gave us this note. And the w the one thing was I had been breaking up this paragraph that I was given to Dave, you know, kind of feeling my way through it. And she kind of smacked him and he was like, you know, this David Mamet gives you all of the direction you need with the punctuation. It's like Shakespeare. And you need to just drive through without taking a break, because that's going to give you more payoff at the end of the, at the end of the scene. And Dave and I looked at each other and we just started doing the scene before he could dismiss us.
3
00:59:10
So we jumped right into it. And he had gone through all the people in our class that had been put forward. He had gone through upperclassmen, and that was the first group Dave and I were the first that had the audacity. Did you jump, take the note and jump back in that's when we finished, he was like, that is preparation, preparation, mother fuckers,
1
00:59:57
Any good theater school has professors and teachers who are characters themselves. And we have talked to so many people with so many wonderful and terrifying and horrible and funny and heartwarming stories of teachers and hear his boss talking about her encounters with her first year acting teacher. This is crazy.
2
01:00:24
Like he, my one, when I met with him and got a warning, the first, whenever the first warnings came out, we had to meet. And he was my teacher and we met, he literally said, what sign are you? I swear to God. And I said, I'm a Libra. And then he started talking about the problems that Libras had. I mean, it was crazy, but at the time, I didn't think it was crazy. Now, looking back, I'm like, what side? What did he literally was talking about astrology during?
0
01:00:53
What is
1
01:01:03
Some professors are truly legends and one of them is Dr. Bella at kin. We're going to have in the future a whole episode devoted to Dr. Bella. But in the meantime, here's a great story from Susan Bennett.
2
01:01:17
Yes. Like, so I had, so I had Dr. Bella and I was a very repressed, very rigid person when I entered the theater school. And naturally I thought it was very edgy, but really what I wasn't very rigid for me. So you understand? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I thought I was cool. Really? I was in a few repressed state. Yes. So we've all been there and maybe that's what the draw to theater school is, is like you have this, you, whatever it is that you need, it is, it is kind of based in this need to find out for yourself who you really are and that's the time of life, but it's definitely what theater school, at least for yacht for undergrad folks was about.
2
01:02:08
And so Dr. Bella's class was technique and, you know, the look, the bellows, very understated person, very, very serious person. And that for me was very, very threatening because I was very supercilious and very on the surface about things and kind of had this edge that I was putting out in the world. And Dr. Pella was not impressed and had seen 4 million students like me. And she was trying to impart something that perhaps that even a certain point, she realized like this kid isn't ready to understand, like when she would say like, you'll feel it in your six, put it there.
2
01:02:59
And I didn't understand what that meant. I didn't understand like, oh, I have memories in my body, in my organism that I can draw upon. If I merely imagine that sensation there, it will go there. If I imagine that I'm excited and tense and upset, it will go there. If I imagine that I'm really relaxed and I'm, you know, in an essential situation, then I can put it in my body and my body will communicate things that my face won't communicate that my, you know, that I intellectually can't communicate. Like I will just communicate those things I didn't get. I didn't understand that. When did you get it?
2
01:03:39
When I got a C I got a C in Texas big and believe me, I was like, I wanted to be edgy, but I also want to get good grades. I had been like a great girl. Like I got good grades, goddammit. And so I got the, well, you know what? I think I came to understand that I didn't know what I was doing when I got the C, but it wasn't until, so the correction, I got the C I realized like, I don't know what, I don't understand what the fuck is going on. And then I started acting. I got very lucky when I came out of school, I was in a production of Layla liaison DonJoy and then I did a production of uncle Vanya. And it was in those, it was in those situations where I was on stage with other people who are really skilled and wonderful actors that I S I started to understand, like, it was through observation.
2
01:04:28
It was through kind of understanding, like, why, how are they able to create this over and over and over again? And I think honestly, probably maybe four or five years out of school, I started to kind of understand like, oh, I think now I get, cause she would say things like you're in the desert is very hot. You're thirsty. You've been out there a long time. And the phone rings. I'm like what he does, I'm in the desert phone, can't ring the desert instead of, oh, I'm hot. Like you're, you should be able to imagine it to switch between these states.
2
01:05:09
Right? First of all, I have to just say, you know, your impressions are
1
01:05:14
Fully channel
2
01:05:15
Channel. It's not even impression channeling. And I, I shouldn't be surprised for all the work you do with your body and your voice. You clearly, you know what you're doing, but when you say that stuff about like, it took you four or five years, I don't think I still know that
1
01:05:47
Acting is one of those things that looks really easy, but it's actually really hard and it's hard to teach acting. It's hard to learn acting. It's hard to do acting. And it is especially hard for people who were in their late teens and early twenties who are meant to play in a conservatory experience. The compliment of roles that are out there in the cannon of theater, which include a lot of characters that are not 21 years old. Listen to this story from Lee Kirk,
3
01:06:21
21 or something, 22 playing. Okay. I remember playing father Jack in dancing at Luna, so right. Okay. This guy is like in his he's like 55, I guess. And he has malaria. I had no clue. I had no connection to that. So I played him like a shuffling old man. I played him like he was 85, 90 years
2
01:06:41
Old wheezing and all this. And I remember one
3
01:06:45
Day Phil said to me, you realize he's like 55. Right? She's
2
01:06:50
Like, he's like my age almost. So yes. And I had
3
01:06:52
No use for that. I was like, I don't know how to play 50, hold on. Play 55. Like, all I can do is you old guy or young guy. So I'm playing old guy right now, you know?
1
01:07:03
Right. That's hilarious. Among other things, conservatories are also meant to be colleges and offering the same college experience as you might otherwise have. And most people in college are really trying to find themselves. So let's listen to a story from Siler Thomas about finding himself. But I w so,
3
01:07:25
And so we, the show is Phaedra's. I was on the lighting crew, my job during the show. And do you remember, they used to do these shows and no one would see them because they were only in December, your, your classmates wouldn't see your show. Remember that at all? I don't remember that at all. Yeah, it was. I hope they don't do it anymore because it's, you know, like no one gets to experience what you, what you're doing,
1
01:07:48
Because are you saying th this was just an optional thing.
3
01:07:55
Quarter system, you know, everyone goes home at Thanksgiving. I was assigned to this particular play, which only played in the month of December, which was fader that year. So nobody saw it. My friends didn't see it. No. I mean, only people that were crew and then the handful of subscribers to
2
01:08:10
These bad marketing right there.
3
01:08:14
The show is amazing. I sat in, there was a anyway, but, but I, I, I sat at this, at this place in the basement, turned off a switch off and on that was, I touched the switch four times. That's all I did a big, a big light move from one side of the shore to the other designed by John Colbert, brilliant lighting design. Like it was this beautiful show that absolutely no one saw, but I sat down there and I read mere Christianity by CS Lewis and just little light bulbs, or just like, as I'm like in the basement of the then Blackstone theater. So it was just this kind of really man, I'm just, I am, I am figuring out what's my worldview. Who am I? What's what's what, how does this all work together?
3
01:08:56
And, yeah, so that was, that was great. How
1
01:08:59
About the poetry of your on lighting crew and you have these light bulbs? Oh my gosh.
4
01:09:08
I love that you can credit me. And when you use that
1
01:09:16
Most, if not all theater, conservatories and programs in the world have abandoned. If they ever had one in the first place they're cut system boss and I were in school and many of our guests were in school at a time where the cut system was still very much in effect. And we wanted to take a moment to listen back to some people who were cut, sharing their stories. First up is Blake Hackler. So what is your understanding about why you didn't get asked back after your second year?
3
01:09:47
Oh yeah. So this is kind of a long involved story. So I feel like can do it, do it. So I sort of knew that I knew that it was a possibility because so in our second year, you know, we do those like seen like showings, right? Like everyone comes and watches and it's like a test. Right? So my first one was with Paul home Quist and we did this great scene from a play called the Lisbon Traviata. And we did an amazing job if I do say so myself and no, it was, it was, it was really good.
3
01:10:31
Dawn was super excited about it. And after that, so I got a lot of like, the faculty really thought it was great. They thought I did an amazing job, all of that. And then Don came in like that next week and was like, well, just get ready. Cause you're going to get caught. And I was like, why? I just did an amazing job at this. He's like, I know he's like, but these people have no imagination. And he's like, you did a great job, but you did a great job because so many things in your life right now are conspiring to like make, you know, what that scene is about. And he's like, what it shows is that you can do that thing.
3
01:11:12
Like you can do that kind of work, but you don't know how to like, get there on a consistent, you know, it's going to take. And, and he, he, he said, but they will expect this kind of work every single time now. And if you don't do it, they will think that you, you know yeah. And he was 100%, right? Yes. And so my official note, my official warning, it only had one thing on it. It, it said that I had a physical hold between my shoulder blades and you're kidding. No, I am not.
3
01:11:52
No, I'm
1
01:11:54
Not saying that on your physical
3
01:11:56
Hold between my shoulder blades and that I needed to, to work on that. And so I, I think the, my third, my like my third, like show was with, it was the Norman conquests and it was with Patrice, I think. Yes. Yes. And so I spoke to her about it and I'm like, I need to work on this. And she's like, great. We will, you know, we will do that. But that was it. Like, that was the only thing. And my GPA was like, like a 3.8 or a 3.9. Like I had like super high grades. So the day that I found out was I, they, they had just had their like big faculty powwow.
3
01:12:41
And so Don calls me right after. And he's like, well, I told you, so he's like, you've been cut. And I was like, really? And he was like, yes. He's like, but you can have wide. He was like, it doesn't matter. He's like, you're an actor. You're going to be totally fine. And I was like, Dawn, what do I do? And he's like, go and he's like, go to work, start auditioning. And then when you're ready to go back to school, you're going to be fine. And you know what I mean? And I think I just chose to believe him.
1
01:13:22
If you haven't listened to Blake's episode and you just heard that clip, you probably don't know that Blake went on after being cut to go to several other theater programs from which he graduated and actually is now running a department at SMU. Next up is ed Ryan.
3
01:13:42
Cause when I got my letter, it said that I had three absences from voice and speech. And to this day I say, no, I didn't. I would have never done that. Like I was pretty committed. She, I had a full freedom, so I was born like tongue tied. And she was like, I want you to go. I never had any speech issues, but she's like, I want you to go see this doctor. So I went to see this doctor bastion and he was an ear nose, throat guy that worked with actors in Chicago. And he was like, oh my God, let me clip it. And he's like, I've never gotten to do it. I was like, it's a little thing underneath your tongue. So it's, it actually tells your tongue behind your bottom teeth.
3
01:14:24
Like everybody's develops that way when you're pouring it recedes. If you're not, they usually just clip it when you're born, but they never discovered mine. And so I wound up letting this doctor like do it. And then I had rehearsal for like my intro with Trudy. And I just remember meeting her in her office and her being like sticking her thumb in my mouth and being like, oh yeah, you have a significant overbite. Like, and just saying like, you know, you don't have a speech issue, but maybe if you got your tongue, you know, released, it would change your speech. You know, I would love to see what it does. You know, I just felt like I was pretty committed to it.
3
01:15:05
And David was my acting teacher second year. And in David's class, it was like, I could do no wrong. You know what I mean? I remember like almost hating it, like him being like some like, okay, you know, you critique each other's like scenes or improv or whatever you were doing. And he would say, so who saw what ed was doing? And somebody was critiquing it. And they were like, what are you? He was like, you know, what are you talking about? Like, he was like, he was fine. Like, he was like, my opinion is the only one that matters. So, you know, and just being like, okay, for now, they hate it. I have to say, I'm shocked
2
01:15:44
That, you know, usually the story is that the second year acting teacher hates your guts and then you get cut. Like, that was my experience. Cause I was cut and then asked back crazy, crazy. But, but it's interesting that David, that thought you could do no wrong in your, as your acting teacher?
3
01:16:06
Well, well, it was really weird because I had David and first quarter I was in David's intro and he gave me a better grade in my intro. Then he did an acting class and I remember him saying to me, do you know why I did that? And me being like, yeah, like, and really having no clue. But I remember, I remember getting into a fight with him in that rehearsal for that intro and him saying something to being able to like, okay, well what, what, what do you want? And he was like, I don't know, you know, just, you better try something else. Cause that's not working. Like he yelled at me and everybody was like, oh, and David and I used to take these walks around the block at the theater school and have these little chats. And he was like, you know, he, he, he gave me every indication that he thought I was talented.
3
01:16:50
And then I remember my second year him saying to me, do you really want to be here for another two years? And I was like, well, yeah, you know, I really want a degree. And he was like, what are you going to get out of Shakespeare classes? And I remember, and I was like, I don't know. And then I remember telling him about my issues, Trudy and him being like, you know, Trudy. And he's like, I'm the head of the voice and speech, which I didn't even didn't really even know at the time, you know, it was odd to me that he was and, and then, but then he gave me, but then he gave me a bad grade, like in acting class. And so it was sort of like this. I was like, what the fuck?
3
01:17:31
Like what, you know,
1
01:17:43
And very ugly fact about theater is that it tests historically been not diverse and not inclusive. That is only beginning to change. Very recently. The dial is shifting ever so slightly thanks to the hard work of change makers, one of whom we interviewed. So take a listen to Justin Ross
3
01:18:04
To that, that story. And it was just was, it was beautiful to see, you know, my class was the largest black acting class that the school has ever had in the history of the Goodman school of drama. Yeah. We have. How
1
01:18:18
Many, can you give us a sense of how many people
3
01:18:21
12 in my acting class
1
01:18:23
That's amazing. Isn't that crazy?
4
01:18:27
Isn't that crazy? It's like, whoa, you know, it's both
1
01:18:30
Crazy that they didn't have this before. I mean, I I'm sure you've heard basically from the, yeah, it was like one, it was almost like a, a system designed to have one or two people of color. I mean, as you know, and Phyllis was our only professor of color and, and that, to my knowledge, that lasted for quite some time and 12, by the way, out of a hundred, did your, did you start with a hundred in your class?
3
01:18:58
Then we have 32, 30, 2 of us. And so 12 out of the 32. And actually what you're saying during the, our lady of key bail process, you know, when I came in, I started an organization called the black artists of today, which is the first affinity group that the school has seen in its history as well. I was like, oh, he's black. And I'm from Atlanta, it's black and hell here. So I was just like, all these black people. I was like, no, we can't together. What are we doing? And we're stronger together. And you know, a lot of, and so we came together and for key bay, especially we saw a lot of the unconscious bias and a lot of the aloof racism within that process, black people learn differently.
3
01:19:50
It's the truth. We, when you bring, that was a, that was an all black cast except for one white actor. We were, we were warming up with a dance. We were warming up with a Jim bay drum. That's not a process that usually people in the theater school go through. And so they, they did not respect our process is the truth of it. We're stepping into this, Rondon dialect these and people. So we need to step into the Rwandan music. The Randan th the, the, the, the, the culture of community. That's what African, a lot of African cultures are about is that community creating rhythm in a dance. Like we had a whole dance that they would not allow us to do.
3
01:20:32
There were just a lot of things that they were like, we can't make time for that. We can't do this. And then Phyllis watching Phyllis like have to like surrender. All of the kids in our class were like, what the fuck is going on? Like, hell no. Like we, and we had a whole moment where we were like, Phyllis, has this been what you've been going through all of these years? Is this what you've been going through?
1
01:21:10
The climate? It was like in the late nineties, take a listen to Stephanie White
2
01:21:16
And then obviously material material, historically. There's nothing, you know what I know, Stephanie and I, for Don Elko found a scene, we were trying to find a scene for a Latina and a black woman. Okay. We found a scene. There were no scenes, right? Like, this is shit. This is shit, shit, shit. But we, but we found it. I mean, and then he, and then the play was not well-written. We were real, super contemporary.
2
01:21:57
And we tried to bring it, like, give it like a real fresh edge with like up-to-date music and say, you know what I mean? And, and we're just really trying to sincerely connect with what, who we were as people and express ourselves through something other than like old white men from the 18 hundreds or whatever these scripts, you know, I just remember crying. I was crying. We both were falling in that because he's, he was what I heard was your shit. Nothing exists for you and your type, what is garbage?
2
01:22:39
And that's too bad. Yeah. That's too bad for you. You're an actress. You're supposed to be able to act. And it's like, but Hey,
4
01:22:47
Right. He wouldn't have that relevant.
1
01:22:51
Right. He wouldn't have probably either been able to grasp this whole idea of like, it was his job to help you find material that both was, you know, an acting challenge for you, but that also, wasn't just completely outside of your experience and that you could bring something unique. I mean, it really, among other things, it's a missed opportunity to provide, not just you, but all of us with like anything too cutting edge,
2
01:23:19
You know, I mean, I understand we're talking about the fundamentals here, you know, from like a real basic building block way. And I, I appreciate that a hundred percent. You gotta have that in any game you're trying to play, you know, but, but there needs to be the more accessibility for creativity and celebrating different experiences, not just, you know, I don't know, April or whatever, really. It really broke my heart. And it also propelled me to see, and it also, I felt really a lot closer to you.
2
01:24:02
And then I felt like we were able to, then we worked together on a different scene. And then we worked together in a kid's show and the police and the lion both were expressive in that way. Both were expressed. And you know what? They both came from him. He picked that scene that we did. And he directed Andrew please. And the line. Yeah.
1
01:24:30
Any harmful effects of not having proper representation generally in theater and in theater school is that students of color and students who are represent other oppressed voices have largely had to do the work, be the agents of change for institutions, which means that those college kids let's say in this example are both having to struggle with the experience of going to college, learning how to be an actor and do all of this social work. That really is not their responsibility. Take a listen to a interesting story from Leslie ivory.
1
01:25:12
And I are very interested in like, what's happening with people emotionally and psychologically while they're in school. Do you, did you know any, like shifts for you in terms of your emotional, psychological wellbeing? Did it get challenged? Yeah. I
2
01:25:27
Had a really big shift. I probably in January, so this would've been when I was halfway through our course. I hope I had it out with a few people in my class because, so we were, we came into new semester and we had new projects. The project was that every year they put on, they take a screenplay. Right. And we'll do sections of the screenplay and we'll have costumes. We'll have a whole semester on just character analysis and we'll go take a nice deep dive. So we did the film bell. Have you seen that with, with Google and bought the wrong? So it's a P it's a period piece. And it's about it's set in like 1749 and it's in England and it's a black woman and she, you saw that, right?
2
01:26:07
So her father is white. And so her father brings her over to the family. And so she's going how to navigate this 18th century, you know, aristocracy as a black woman. And meanwhile, you know, there's like this big, her, her, her grandfather, he's like a Supreme court judge. And so he's having to deal with this new case of the slave ship that was being drowned and tends to be or not. So he's having to preside over this case. So there are all of these at the center of it is race. I mean, it's about her navigating this world. So this was a play we're going to do. There are two of us who are, who are black women in the course. So at the architectures, like great, there's two women. They can handle it. And then everyone else, you know, we'll divvy it up. You choose your character. We'll go from there. So how it started was actually a course lead was on vacation or this time.
2
01:26:51
So another teacher stepped in and he came to me, he said, okay, just for this project, we're actually going to open up this character of Dido, who was a black woman to the rest of your female counterparts who are not of color at all. Okay. Would you mind sharing your experiences as a black woman to your, to your classmates? And let me say this, the person that the teacher who was talking to me, I adore him and immediately I was like, yes, of course, of course, because he's a person that you just don't, you just do anything for, cause he's so genuine. And he, and I just really vibe in such a great level and then went home and then I was like, wait a minute, I'll call my dad.
2
01:27:35
And I was like, this isn't, something's not, this is not right. This is not okay. As soon as I was like going home, I was like screaming. Cause I was like this, because the thing about it is that sure I can share my experiences. They don't, they don't give a shit. Because what I learned was that they are more concerned with how many lines from the play who was the, or in the screen who was the lead, who, you know, who gets to have the lead. So, so w we went back to teacher and I said, no, you will not open it up to, to my, my peers who are not of color because this whole industry is built to exclude people of color. And if they feel excluded, then that's a, that's a lesson to be learned for them to take on as they go out in the world.
2
01:28:18
And so we said, okay, you know what? You're right. Let's, you're right. We'll close it off. So we closed it off and that's when shit hit the fan. So there were protests within our class of, well, well, why can I play the lead role? And as a matter that she's black, who cares it, isn't about race racism, doesn't matter. You know, why do you feel that? Why are you angry? Why don't you feel that what you do? And, and what really got me was the fact that, and explaining, I shouldn't have had to explain myself, but, and trying to explain to my classmates respectfully, why this is an issue instead of being heard, I was being, you know, pushed back and shouted at and not listened to. And that's, and that that's was the issue for me. There's one thing to, to, you know, to educate your, your peers or to have a conversation when you came in, let me speak about my own experiences as a black woman, that's an issue for me.
2
01:29:07
So it got to the point where we had another person and their employee at the school come into our classes. But at this point, our class was starting just a fracture. She comes through classes to talk about empathy and race relations, and what's okay. Was that okay? And it just blew up even further and in a discussion where you think people would be like, oh, okay, we understand it's hard for people of color in the world. No, it was well, it's unfair because I should be getting this. I mean, it was just privileged. It's all it was just privilege about. And, and so they try, we had several discussions or discussions and it just got worse and worse.
2
01:29:46
And to the point where teachers just gave up and then we just kept going. And so at the end, so, you know, we did the scenes and it was over and at the MRI at the end of the course, I had a talk with our course leader and she's like, so do you think, you know, the, the class has gotten better? It's gotten healed. I was like, no, I mean, we were so fractured after that. Absolutely not. Oh, I'm sorry. Right. By a week before that all that happened, we were filming a scene. So you get, you have a partner and you can choose what on camera scene. You're going to do someone decided to film a scene from Django. Oh, no, no.
2
01:30:29
Hi Jane, because you all know what's coming. So I just so happen to sit next to the other, the, for my fellow black woman, who's in the course, she just happened to sit by each other because I think we have partners in the scene or something. And, and she said, should the me, she said, just that. And I was like, you would have heard that. She was like, okay. So let me go on rehearsal life. And then we hear it. And she just looks at me and we just, and we just like stopped. And so finally they saw it, and this is a short scene. Granted, I, should you not, they set it at least like seven times and this yes, because in the whole movie, I mean, not that it's an excuse, but that's to be expected.
2
01:31:14
So they, in this scene and money, this is what their tutor. I mean, our instructor, you know, this is all the whole class is here. So they, and we were like, what just happened? And the response was, oh, well, it's just a movie. So one of the gentlemen was from Croatia and the other was from, I think, Columbia, but it was just, well, it's just a film. So what's the big deal. That was the first response to us saying, do you not see an issue with this? That was the very first thing to be said. So this is how it started. And then after all of that started was everything with the movie with bell. So, and so this had been several months of this class. And so, and I think that's probably why I also was grateful for us moving online, because that also meant that I normally had to be in the same room as all this toxic, toxic people who didn't value me as a person who asked me repeatedly to push away a fight my identity for sake of a class exercise.
2
01:32:09
You know, I'm like, if I can, if I had to
2
01:32:51
That was the class in itself. Right. And how I'm going to enter the world, especially in this industry. And that taught me all I needed to know. I was just going to say our guests, Bridgette
2
01:33:33
Right. And that really freed her up to then go on. She left DePaul, but then she went on to, to, you know, do mega Feldon Christ work and more acting. And now as a therapist that also, I believe integrates some, some of that stuff into her therapy when she's working with clients. So I it's interesting, like she, when she was talking about trauma stored in the body, like even I in my head was kind of not poo-pooing it, but I just, I, you know, people always talk about the body remembers, but I really get it now. Like I re after this last sort of thing with me, it's like, I can see how it, it, it is right.
2
01:34:20
We don't look at it maybe, or we're starting to, you know, with these books and people are saying all kinds of things now it's coming out. But like, you know, growing up there was no, there was no connection to the body. And I think at the theater school, they were trying to get us to do that. But it's like, how do you connect to your body when your body is so filled with trauma?
1
01:34:40
Right. And also like in a way, I have a slightly more nuanced understanding. We've spent a lot of time talking about, they should have done this and they should have done that. And there were so many people who were in so much psychological pain and that kind of stuff came out and, and speech and movement class. And, you know, we were talking about like, everybody should have had a therapist or there should, and all of that is true, but at the same time, if you, if you opened yourself up to that idea, then like, it's, it is like being in a residential treatment program and that's a full-time job. And that can't be what your theater school is. I mean, that's really not their job. So I'm saying this to say like as much time as I've spent lamenting how unsupported we all were.
1
01:35:28
I also deeply understand why, why that had to be the case in certain cases. Yes.
2
01:35:34
And I, I can as well. It's just, it's like, it is so challenging for me to get to the point they want us. It was so hard for me to get to the point where I think they wanted us to get, there were so many roadblocks in the way, emotionally and physically that it's almost at least for people with complicated trauma histories, an insurmountable task to become a great actor and a theater conservatory when you've got all these roadblocks and trauma that has nothing to do with the teachers. Right. But they just triggered it. So like, it's a landmine situation. And I think the people, the people who did really well were people who either can totally compartmentalize like a hundred percent, like, I'm not saying they didn't have trauma.
2
01:36:20
I'm saying they were able to say, okay, either consciously or probably unconsciously at 17, 18, I'm not going to go there because I, I, they, they recognize maybe. And they were just like, Nope, this is about get becoming a famous actor. That's what I'm doing here. And, or there are people like me and perhaps you who are like, just so checked out that we didn't even know the depths of trauma that, that was in our bodies and, or we did. And we just couldn't, or there were people that just freaked out and had to leave right. Or, or were asked to leave because of, because of those roadblocks. So I feel like there's like different paths you can take to get through an experience like that.
2
01:37:00
And, you know, the people who really were quote successful, I think were people that either a didn't, like I said, didn't have the trauma or were able to totally compartmentalize missing the path to it because you can't scare or shame somebody into developing a sense of self and you can't develop it for them. You know, it's an, it's an offer. Does anybody have that born with that? Does that get created? Like do, were we the only, I mean, I think, you know, gender thing, you know, I've talked to, and we'll kind of get to how all this played out, but I ended up talking to Phyllis. I, I ended up presenting at the Feldon Christ conference in Chicago about 10 years ago.
2
01:37:45
And Phyllis was in my class, which is so funny. And so she took me out and took me to a place she was directing and we talked a lot and then spoke since then, because I do, and I haven't prioritized it with just life and everything else I've prioritized, but I'm very, very interested in the psychological health of people in theater conservatory specifically, obviously, because I, you know, I'm invested in that. And I, I spoke with her a bit and, and I spoke with the head of acting at Cal arts a bit. And, and where I'm coming from and looking at this, when you say agendas, does everybody, does anybody have this?
2
01:38:29
My guests and I have nothing to base this on accepted. I feel educated guess that almost everybody in these theater programs has unresolved trauma. And what are we doing as a faculty, as an institution to address the unresolved trauma? I mean, I think more and more that's likely becoming part of programs. I don't know that I know DePaul stopped cutting people, which my goodness talk about like activating unresolved trauma for people threatened to kick them out. So, gosh, yes. So any, it is something I'm very interested in.
1
01:39:11
All right, after that deep discussion, I'm going to take a right turn here. I want to end the episode with a grab bag of fun, little highlights that didn't necessarily fit into the theme for, for this, for this episode, but that we wanted to include in any case. So please enjoy stories from Kevin Fox, Jen Ellison, Jonas Avery, and Dawn, Vanessa brown. It's really
6
01:39:38
Amazing. And that showcase, like I kind of, you know, destroyed the room with it. It was, it was everything you could ever want in terms of how it went. And lots of people wanted to talk to me. And I went to meetings with lots of people and my friends, I was, it was, it was a fun time. I was out there with my friends, PJ and Seiler and, and Amy, I mean, the whole class is out there, but, you know, we were all hanging out and they were all excited for me that I got to go to these meetings and I still remember kind of what I wore to most of them. And it was just an error. I wish someone had, I wish someone had been like, no, no, don't, don't, don't don't wear that. Don't wear that. But it was, you know, it was what I had and it seemed like a nice thing to wear.
6
01:40:23
I felt fancy in it, but all the meetings were, and sometimes I would, the meeting would be with the person who actually saw me. And other times it would be somebody who worked for that person, but almost all the meetings were like, so when are you coming out here? And I was like, I'm a theater actor in Chicago. Like, but you know, like, what do you want me to do? You know, like I'm here now. And I can, you know, I may come out of here again. And I, I don't know why I thought those meetings going to go any differently than they're like, okay, we'll give Scott when you come out here. And I remember writing postcards to all those people, like with my horrible handwriting, writing postcards and sending them to those people, none of whom interacted with me, of course.
6
01:41:08
Why would you, what is he gonna do? Write me a postcard back. I've been thinking about you, Kevin,
1
01:41:17
We're dying for you to move back to LA. We're short on.
6
01:41:20
Yeah, but I met in Chicago
1
01:41:26
Anyway. So yes, I teach. So I don't teach in the theater school at DePaul, which I think is really funny communications school. I teach screenwriting and in various forms for a while, for about seven years, I taught ethics in a video game and cinema until they realized I didn't have of moral philosophy degree.
2
01:42:00
Oops. Did we forget something? Well, it was funny cause I saw it for like seven years.
1
01:42:06
And then one day I got an email from them saying, by the way, we don't think you have a degree in this, do you and I went, no, I just was told to teach this class. So I did. And then, and I actually got really good at it. And then they were like, we can't sorry. And I was like, I get it. You want somebody who has a degree in the thing they're teaching and didn't just teach it to themselves in order to, yeah, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. What year, if I'm understanding what you're saying, you got
7
01:42:42
A job teaching something
1
01:42:46
That you knew you didn't have a degree to teach and then you just taught it to yourself.
2
01:42:53
That's amazing. That's brilliant. You should, they actually should have promoted you to the head of the ethics department
3
01:43:00
With what, with running on empty. So I was doing coastal disturbances at the time and we, all of us, I mean, our, everybody in that show was getting auditions that we had, they were coming out of. Everybody was coming to, they wanted us. We, we were, we were a hot ticket and like movie stars were coming to see us directors were coming to see us. People were like, okay. And obviously a net was the one who flew off the charts and started working gangbusters. But for me, I got an audition, I guess Sidney Lumet came and saw it and wanted me for this film. But they were still working out the other characters and they had hired a river, was like the first person hired.
3
01:43:42
And then Christine Lahti came later and they didn't want to, they wanted to hire me, but they didn't think that I looked enough like them. So they, they, they were sort of like, they kept bringing me back and finally my mother called and said, or Jed, the agent call and say, don't keep bringing Jonas Avery back in. If you're not going to offer it to him. And then we got a call that I didn't get it. And then I guess what happened that up happening was they got Judd to play the dad and they realized that I could be Judson. And that's when they were like, okay, we can bring Jonathan. And so I that's how that worked. And it was, it was a great experience, but he was just, you know, the thing, things were a lot, a lot of fun river was, was a great big brother.
3
01:44:22
I was, I was, I'm an only child. And he treated me like a big brother in good ways. And in bad ways, he treated me no different than his little sister or some or joy was there. And so she, he, he would, we would, I remember there was one point when he, Martha Plimpton and I were rehearsing over on 19th street and Broadway. And we would, I had these, someone would give me a costal, these water balloons that looked like grenades. And we were filling up water balloons and dropping them on people and especially river wanting to make sure that we were dropping them on people, wearing business suits out of, out
2
01:44:59
Of a black neighborhood. You know, I mean, it was like, where, where, where do I fit? So I did what any, any, any smart person would do. I sold all my possessions, tried to shore up some bills and I moved to the Caribbean. I moved to Saint John plot
1
01:45:20
Twist. I would, did not see that coming. I
2
01:45:23
Moved to St. John. I took a preliminary trip. Cause I thought that's what I, because I had taken a vacation and I had gotten to know some local people and I thought they do nothing all day. Their jobs are nothing. I have been working like a dog. I'm going to the Caribbean. It was as simple as that. And I quickly found out, cause I actually researched this and did do it any island. That's not the United States. You need to have a round trip ticket because they don't want anybody dropping out of society in their island. They got enough and which is exactly what I was going to do.
2
01:46:04
But I ended up going and, and finding that St. John was what I needed to do. I started out living in a tent on a, on a campground and you could live there for a month and then you could find another place to live for a week. And then you could go back to the campground for a month. And as long as I kept my, my clothes free of mildew, I was okay. I mean, I, I lived on right. A few steps from the beach. There were wild donkeys. There were land.
2
01:46:44
What are they called? Land crabs. If you ever heard land crabs, the huge, and I became friends with the guy who ran the place. Well, we, we, we, and, and I had the most ridiculous blissful time. I worked for a couple of crazy AA members who lived on St. Thomas, by the way, St. Thomas is extremely dangerous. Don't go there. And they lived on St. Thomas and they would come by, they would come by the theory and they would open up. They owned a string of, of t-shirt shops. And I worked with Caribbean women at the t-shirt shop.
2
01:47:26
And the first day I was like, then I grabbed what you're doing. Sit down, gotten to be here. He talked about us, and then he'll go with the dollar man. And then the other man would take him all around the island, go sit down what you're doing. And then they would steal.
1
01:47:46
And you're like, yes, finally, I'm getting a real education.
2
01:47:49
Like here you're, you're in a gift, a family take these. I supplied my family with a lot of sweatshirts. And St. John taught me a huge lesson that I thought I was escaping. And the bigotry, like bigotry never leaves. There was a huge, you had this wonderful island and they called it paradise. Everybody lived like a hippie. I finally found, oh God, another story. I finally found a roommate. Her name was Joycelyn and she's 50 years old. And I said, hi, Joycelyn what, what are you doing? She said, oh, I'm having a nervous breakdown here.
2
01:48:34
You want to share an apartment? And I'm so nice. I was like, yeah,
1
01:49:33
Everyone. It's Gina, just jumping on at the end here to say, if you haven't already please subscribe to the podcast. And also please give us a five star review. If you feel so inclined, if you really love us, please write a review. Having those reviews, whether they're good or not helps us with our algorithm in the matrix of it all. So it would be greatly appreciated. I survived theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina plegia. For more information about this podcast or any other goings on of undeniable, Inc.
1
01:50:16
Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thanks. So I've never asked any, I don't think we've ever had asked any, any of our guests this question. So I'm going to ask it to you. Is there anything you really miss about theater school about when you were there? Yeah,
2
01:50:38
I miss the feeling of only having one thing to do,
8
01:50:42
Which was go to school
2
01:50:44
And experience one thing at a time. There was a lot of freedom in that I was thinking about that today. I was like, what is the nostalgic like, why, why do I think? Because there's another part of it. That's really nostalgic for me of thinking about the theater school and like, what is that? I was thinking about this morning when I knew we were talking and I was like, that's it, it's like, it's like camp, the same thing I miss about camp, which is you, you, you show up at this one place, right. That building on Kenmore, and you're going to be there all day and all night, but then you go home, but you know, that it's contained in that space.
1
01:51:20
Yes. And, and we were still at the position where people were telling us what to do. And there is a certain kind of freedom in that as much as we re you know, would've probably railed against it at the time. There is, you don't know what you've got until it's gone. Like you did. I didn't know how I felt my life was as complicated as it would ever be then. And now I understand it was a simple, right, right.
2
01:51:47
And I just remember things that, you know, things that seemed so upsetting. Right. So upsetting. And they were upsetting at the time, but I'm like, okay, this is, but yeah, like, I'm just thinking of like, when a boy, you know, I liked didn't like me or when I didn't get a role, but even that, because my self-esteem was so low, I never expected to get any good roles. So, but when a boy I thought liked me, you know, didn't like me at the theater school or like liked someone else. I really thought that was going to be the worst pain I ever felt in my life.
1
01:52:24
Can you imagine, we were saying to ourselves, when I'm an adult, I'm not going to have any of these problems. I'm going to buy whatever I want and do it. Oh my God.
2
01:52:34
We were so dumb, you know? But like, I think everyone is that way. I, I don't know, in some ways, and in fact, if you're not that sort of dumb, you might be in trouble.
1
01:52:45
Yeah. Yeah. I'd be in trouble. Yeah. The thing that I miss the most, or one of the things that I miss the most about that time is I had so much time to sit around and laugh with people. I loved that. I, and I had that, you know, in my twenties to some degree, but I haven't had, it's been a long time since it was a part of my everyday life to be among peers and just sit down and have a good laugh.
2
01:53:19
I agree. I think that's fantastic. And the other thing I remember is this was so funny. And Alex, Scooby is someone who I've reached out to a bunch and just never responded back. But Alex Scooby, after movement to music ones, this is the best. So I was so thirsty and he had a seven up. I remember, and I, I say, can I have a sip? And I took it and I drank the whole thing. And he was so mad at me. He was so angry at me. I couldn't help myself. And he was like, it would became this big thing. But now looking back, I think it was kind of, you know, it was Alex, Scooby was like very dramatic. He was like, that is really not cool. Like Christine crocheted on the pants, you know?
1
01:54:06
Yeah. I, you're going to love just listening. Cause I've got a lot of these, you know, just really funny stories. I have Shayna's story about the P I have Larry's story about choosing to go to his hunt, choosing a different monologues. Wait, that is brilliant. That is amazing.
2
01:54:35
You're doing this. So
1
01:54:37
When Eric Slater went to Bella's office and she said, I didn't want it.
2
01:54:46
It's fantastic. Why, why didn't I get CA I didn't want
1
01:54:55
Thinking about that and talking about Bella. I mean, I think she was always a bad ass, but that is something I look forward to. And even later life feeling even more and more free to just say it extremely plainly. Exactly. Like it is without,
2
01:55:12
You know. Yeah. I have this feeling of like, I wish I had spent more time with her. Yeah. I didn't know shit about like, and I think that comes with age too. And just like, I thought she was an old stodgy lady that was mean and kind of grumpy and, and, oh yeah. She had some history, but who cares about that? I'm into now. I wish I had really taken full advantage of the, of her, of her brilliance. I just, I was scared. And also, I didn't really feel free at the theater school to approach teachers. I didn't have yeah. As an, as to talk to them. So, yeah.
1
01:55:51
So I want to that question about what do you miss? I want to ask that of our guests going forward, more people I'm thinking about the things that we didn't talk about with people. I want to ask people about if they remember their private moment extra.
2
01:56:06
Yeah. Did we all heard that or just Don's class?
1
01:56:09
Well, a lot of us had Dawn, so
2
01:56:12
That was great.
1
01:56:14
I want to ask people about, we've talked to many people about movement to music, but not everybody. I want to get everybody's temperature on that. And I want to talk about what people thought of the work, because we really haven't spent any time talking about, like, I mean, when we've had individual people on, we've said that they re we really liked certain things they did, but like, did people feel when they saw the work excited that they were going to this school or was it more not, or was it a mixed bag?
1
01:56:54
I mean, I'm sure for most people, it was a mixed bag, but I had several moments of like, wow, there's a lot of talent here. You know, I had several like inspirational moments. We don't talk to people very much about watching each other. Mm. You know,
2
01:57:14
That is a great thing to ask people. Great. I, I think that's very insightful that you thought of that because I did have those moments too. Like I remember watching, oh my God. It was the commitments was that it was no the road. I don't know. Some, some British situation that I remember Mike Dunn was in, in, in a, in the movement to music room. And it was a workshop. It was the greatest. And I can't remember what it was. It was some thing that they later made into a movie. So good. And it was a, his ensemble cast. So funny. I remember the accents being so good.
2
01:57:56
So I had those moments, mostly in workshops.
1
01:58:00
Me too, me too. The, the experience I had a lot more about main stage shows was the spectacle of it, how beautiful the costumes were and, you know, and, and mean not to say that there wasn't a lot of great performances, but you got a much better chance to have that real raw kind of emotional experience in the world, like in
2
01:58:18
Your face, you know, like right in your face. That was so, so great. So yeah. That's a great question to ask
1
01:58:26
Us. Yeah. Okay. Anything else you want to say about these last 50 episodes, but what you want to get out of the next 50?
2
01:58:36
I just really want to continue exploring how we end up where we end up and is there, what is the benefit of looking back and, and, and why, and just keep asking, like, for me, like, where does the healing come from? Like, is it from the reliving? The thing, is it from talking about it? But like, I am really, I, I love at first, my really big thing was about resilience. Right. But now I'm really interested in healing, like in a true sense, healing, not just putting a, band-aid, not just, but like, what does it mean to heal? So that's where I'm headed.
Intro: parenting puppies and kids
Let Me Run This By You: Why don't I like The Matrix?
Interview: We talk to Mia McCullough
SEE TRANSCRIPT (unedited)
Intro: outlet malls
Let Me Run This By You: reimagining Ferris Bueller's Day Off
Interview: We talk to Susan Bennett
SEE FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited)
Intro: Condragulations
Let Me Run This By You: The David Chase method
Interview: We talk to Blake Hackler about surviving multiple theatre schools on both sides of the equation.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
And Jen Bosworth wrote me this and I'm Gina
1
00:00:28
Good morning. Did you quit your hair? No,
0
00:00:31
It's just dirty and crumpled up.
1
00:00:35
Let's see a shirt. This is my, I always wear this. My RuPaul can dry. Do you know what? I've never seen that shirt on you. Oh really? I've never seen that shirt. It's amazing. Oh yeah. RuPaul is just like, yeah, I I'd love to have, you know, the dinner party question. Who would you have? Let's say five, five people living or dead. Okay. Your dinner party. Well, Frida Kahlo. Yeah, of course. Maya Angelou. Oh yeah. Prince. Although he would be so weird, like he's a good point. Good point. He'd have to prefer, okay. Frida Kahlo, Maya Angelou, prince James Baldwin.
1
00:01:17
And I don't know who the fifth one is. You know, you should probably, I guess somebody kind of dumb in there because that's such a smart group that it might be. I would be intimidated at night group. Okay. Not that she's dumb, but I was thinking maybe she's not dumb, but she would, she would definitely add levity is Joan Rivers. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh my God. That would be amazing. Might be the best answer to that question. I have
1
00:01:59
So, so I wrote an outline in two days, Monday and Tuesday was outline days. And then I had, and I, and I turned my outline into my mentor, who I love, but who, you know, because she's a mentor triggers me and I've had to work through like yesterday. I'll talk about what I had to work through with her, had nothing to do with her, of course, as we know nothing to do with her. So I wrote the outline in two days. So my outline was 11 pages and she wrote me back and said, you're in good shape, go to script. And I told you this yesterday, but she wrote back. And so she'll put notes on like a format, usually Adobe or Google docs.
1
00:02:39
There's one of those, but I didn't see the notes. So I thought I was in such good shape that I could take that I took none of her notes and just went to script. So it was a setback. So then I got, she wrote me and said, I feel like you didn't take any one of my notes. Is there a read? And I thought what notes it was a whole company situation. So then I wrote her and said, of course, Don, of course I would take your notes. I just didn't see them. And so then basically I had to start over and changed my outline and then re go back and do a second draft of the script. So I wrote, I've written two drafts in four days.
1
00:03:21
Yep. I mean, congratulations. That is quite a feat. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. Thank you, beans. And I, my question to you is, and I talked a little bit about it yesterday, but I want to get into it. I, and it's kind of like what we talk about with the theater school of phew state or blacking out or not. I, I have a hard time in the thing being present in the moment, and I know I'm not alone, but like during the writing, it's almost like I have to access a different part of my brain that has to not be present in order to get the work done because my brain will judge the shit out of it so hard.
1
00:04:06
And I was thinking maybe at the theater school, we couldn't take in all the things that were coming at us. So we had to shut off the part of the brain that remembers everything could be. I mean, I, I tend to think about it as, because the theater school was so much about reflecting you back to yourself and if you weren't ready to see that it was too overwhelming to you, you had to shut that part out. But yeah, I think that, I think that old thing about, you know, when the student is ready, the teacher appears, I think that's really true. You have to be all the, all the factors have to conspire to make you in a place to be able to face something a hundred percent.
1
00:04:55
Like, I think that mostly we don't face anything at a hundred percent in our lives. That's too overwhelming. Some we're lucky to get like 50% or 60%. So yeah, the judgment monster inside of us takes up a lot of space and you probably have to do some gymnastics to get yourself to put that month. Maybe that you give that monster another task while you're trying to. Right. What I w yes, exactly. And so what I did was I thought, okay, well, I also was on a deadline because I had set myself up for a situation where, you know, I just needed to get it done without getting too much into it.
1
00:05:36
So I don't look like a total ass, but I, but it's a good thing. It's all good things. But I, and, and this, we talk about, we've talked about too, how in Hollywood people probably pitch things that they don't have the full draft written. And that makes me feel better because I was like, okay, so the bottom line is I, I pitched something that I didn't have a script for duh, but that's what I'm, that's what I did. So I think the, the thing that, the way that I got it done was because I thought about it and I thought, okay, well, even if people had deadlines, they could choose to not get it done. Right? Like, just because you have a deadline, doesn't mean, you know, but I'm such a rule follower that I'm like, oh, there's a deadline. I'll do it. That helped. But the other thing that helped me was literally the structure of the process, trust the structure of the process of the David Chase method.
1
00:06:26
That is the big, big, huge outline. Then you get your outline approved, and then you can take, you can though each of those slug line paragraphs can stand alone, right? So you can move it anywhere in the script. So you literally cut it and paste it. So what that means is nothing is set in stone, which I love. And everything's a work in progress, which I also love as a psychological tactic for like living life work in progress, not perfect. And then it gives me freedom. And so then when I sat down, when I had the outline in the, in the order that I felt for the moment was really good.
1
00:07:09
When you sit down to write the actual quote script, all you really doing is shortening your, your outline and adding dialogue. That sounds great, by the way, is that also the Matthew Weiner way? Cause I know he worked for this apprentice. Okay. I'm sure. I'm sure I bet you there. Exactly. Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense to me because one of the things I really love about the Sopranos is that it's, it tells the story in perfect order, without it being linear in a way. And the same thing was true of madness. I mean, everything is taking place probably in an episode in one day yet it doesn't have this very predictable.
1
00:07:49
Now we're going to switch to the B story. Now we're going to switch to the C story. It could really like go in and out. That's so cool. And I agree with you, not that I've done it, but that, it sounds like that would be take away a lot of the pressure just to say, oh no, no. And actually it's the same thing. If you're writing an essay or term paper for school, like to do it, the work is to do the, yeah, I didn't know this. This is a totally new based on, you know, the last year of my, of my writing life is a totally new thing to me is that the outline is the work. And I was like, I always thought outlines were boring, restrictive. It's so funny. Everything I thought I knew, I, I don't know.
1
00:08:30
Or I, I just changed my mind. I thought they were it. Same thing with consistency, the idea of consistency I've I find it. I thought it was boring, restrictive, like a jail stifling, the creative process, if you outline too much. Oh no, no, no, no. What, what I'm doing is setting myself up to not lose my mind when I have to write a script in two days or three days, or that must, that must come from school because the outline was always the first thing you had to turn in to make sure that you didn't wait to do everything at the last minute, which is what I did. So me doing an outline was simply busy work to like, it's not, it wasn't necessarily the thing I was going to write the paper about, but it was the thing I had to turn in first.
1
00:09:14
So, and I remember just like going through the rubric, like, you know, part, one of your outline should have this. And I would just basically have the words that the teacher put in the rubric with like a little something added to it. That was for my eyes, you know, that is hilarious and make sense. And also it's just also strikes me as like, I'm I blocked out a lot of school too. Yeah, yeah. Right. Totally. So I don't remember, you know, the one thing I do remember about writing and I wanted to tell you about was that when I was in like fourth or fifth grade, we had to write a poem about, for like some holiday about what it meant to be an American.
1
00:09:56
And I wrote a poem and I, and I, and it was about my grandparents and my mom being from another country. And I wrote it. I was so proud of it. And the teacher pulled me aside and accused me of plagiarism. And she accused me of like getting help from an adult. And I got no good because it was good and she could not. And I said, I S I said, I read it to my grandma. I read it to her, but I didn't. And my grandmother didn't really speak English that well. And so she's not going to help me with a poem. I mean, but this lady was like, she did not believe me that, that, that, that I wrote it on my own. And I just, and that really hurt my hurt my feelings.
1
00:10:39
I sure I have about four memories of all of the English training I had. The first one was like, maybe in third grade where I was writing something. And I had constructed a sentence that included that, that, you know, and she was obviously just skimming it. Cause she circled the second that, you know, she thought I had just done a mistake. Right. And I remember thinking, oh, she didn't read it. If she read it, she would know that I used it correctly. Third grade, the next time after that was adults, adults, middle school.
1
00:11:21
I had one teacher. Remember, I think I told you like a teach for America type person. She was there for three months. She said, you're a good writer. I got all excited. And then she, she left and I, I forgot all about that. The third time was my sophomore year in high school and they were teaching diagramming sentences. And I was looking at this board going like, I will not, no matter how far I go in life, no matter how hard I study this, no matter what I do, I will never understand this diagramming sentences thing. To me, it felt like, and I felt angry. Like you put math into English. Yeah. Math because of how it was this formula of how you had to break things down. And same thing with grammar. I mean, I really blocked it out and it's like probably my biggest deficit as a writer is I, I, I don't, I'm not really, I know intuitively, but I don't, I never S right.
1
00:12:14
Cause it was little grammar at all cause oh, right, right. Right. So when I, I totally can. It's interesting because your writing is, so you would never know that like you would never be like, oh, Gina has a grandma. So how did you, it's just all instinct. It's from reading. I think it's just from reading a lot. Like, I, I intuitively understand how to use it, but if you asked me actually, when we were interviewing Dave
1
00:13:13
And who knows? If I went back to my sophomore year of high school, I would probably now with my adult eyes, be able to identify something that was happening in my life that made it impossible for me to, cause I'm not like stupid. I just, it was just something about the way, oh, actually I kind of do know what it's about now that I'm thinking of it. My sophomore year, I went to a new high school, which I was really excited to go to because it was where all my friends were in the first year I had gone to a high school that I didn't know anybody because of my test scores. I guess they put me in honors English. And I sat down the first day and I don't really know why this happened, but the teacher looked at me and said, are you supposed to be?
1
00:13:54
And I kind of looked around and all the kids were looking at me and I said, I think so. And she's like, I don't think you're supposed to be in this class. I still don't understand why that happened because I was brand new to the school. She didn't know me at all. I there, I don't know. And I, I literally walked out of the class and went to my counselor and said, I'm not supposed to be an honors English. And they were like, oh really? Cause I think, and I'm like, no, I can't, I can't be in that class. And then I went to the regular class and they were talking about diagramming sentences and I told myself, like, I can't possibly understand, oh my gosh, it's not weird. Adults are horrible.
1
00:14:35
I mean, really they say things that are horrible to children. And I mean, I think we keep coming back to this, on this, on our podcast, which is like the things we say matter to people and they stick around, they around, you cannot unsave them, especially to a child. You cannot unsafe.
0
00:15:07
What could have been an, a cautionary tale all at once, but also a wow. Maybe
1
00:15:13
I could have been an exact by this point if I had stuck it out in the first time. Yeah. Rush Amman type thing. You know, this is making me think of, it's making me think of how for so long, all, most majority of women's stories were told by men. So other than their history and cinema and television is full and place is full of these characters. That to the men, I think, seem very fleshed out to the women are like, well, but wait, so your option is, I'm a cool customer. Nothing really ruffles me. I'm, I'm a girl who can hang with the guy, like, which is just, okay, well, so that, that person is literally just a man's wildest dream, right?
1
00:15:54
Or I'm, I'm the, she's the frumpy. Yes. Disregarded funny Mrs. Poole type character or she's the Vixen sex pot, you know? So my, I have a fantasy of going back to some of my favorite classic movies and writing the story, writing the story from the perspective of one of these characters who I think was given, you know, just this once over treatment and not treated like a real person. And re-imagining the story. I love it. Yeah. Like what if in Ferris Bueller's day off, which I love that movie, but what if in Ferris Bueller's day off?
1
00:16:34
Cause she, that character of the girlfriend was exactly that the coolest, tough as nails, beautiful. Like what of her story was, I am surrounded by, you know, almost adult babies and my job is, and I can't, and I can't find my way to having my own life because I'm so beautiful that the only thing I've been told to do in life is like align myself with some yes, yes. I love it. I mean, I, and I also think that that, that a through line is probably going to be present in all of your work anyway.
1
00:17:19
So, you know, as, as you are, because that's where you write from. So that's why your characters are going to be so specific because you noticed in, you know, history of art that like, wait a second, we're not paying attention to the Simone's or whatever her name was of the Ferris Bueller's, you know, like we're yeah, Simone, that was her name or even something like all in the family. You know, my dad didn't know that that show was tongue in cheek. He just really liked the Archie bunker character. You love that show. And I've heard, I've heard Sally Struthers talk about her experience of being on that show.
1
00:18:00
And Norman Lear, who everybody hails is this like really progressive guy was really with her. Yeah. Like let CR Rob Reiner do things that he wouldn't let her do. And, and, and all of that. And she said, all of my lens were daddy and, you know, whatever, like it was all just in, she was extremely one dimensional and she feels very grateful for that character, for that story. But like, there was, it was boring. It was a boring character. And that'd be so fun to go back and rewrite all in the family from her perspective or from the mother's perspective. I mean, I have hardly any of that.
1
00:18:40
We don't, and, and, and the thing that's really sad also about it to me is that then we miss out on a huge chunks of history and how it affected women. So racism. So no wonder that women are like, you know, I don't know. It's like we don't have any, we didn't have any of the mom in our cheap bunkers on the families or the daughters. Like, what did they think about their, their father being a racist guy? Like what, or would they think about racism in general? Or would they think, you know, it's like we miss out on perspectives that really could have helped us. And that people could have identified with imagine how different, so many people's lives would be just to have that little bit more of a, of a, and this is the thing that people still don't seem to grasp about.
1
00:19:30
Like representation. Just, it, it, it it's P I think that people think about representation is like people who are under underrepresented are saying, we want it to have been the stars of everything. And no, it's like, no, we just literally like, if our is supposed to reflect our lives, and then we look at our, and we don't see ourselves in it, we think we're weird. And nobody there's nobody else who feels the way that we feel, nobody else who looks the way that we look. So we feel terrible about ourselves. That's the lack of representation. It's, it's not like we want to be the stars of everything. It's like, just, no, just have some basic understanding of like, yeah.
1
00:20:10
Of like where, where we fit in. And also that we exist, you know, like that people exist. And I think, and as being like, for me as a kid who felt like I did not exist in my mother's eyes, so taking it back to psychology, my mother made me feel whatever it just happened. And she, she was troubled in some ways, like, I didn't really exist. Right. So, or shouldn't exist or there was something wrong with my existence. So then it really screwed me for the rest of my life, because I was like, do I exist? Where do I exist? I don't see myself reflected in this woman. I don't, I don't hear myself. So where do I belong? I belong nowhere.
1
00:20:49
Great. Now I'm going to turn inward and hate myself and then have to spend my whole adult life, trying to figure out where I fit in trend. And just finding people who seem to feel confident in who they are and clinging onto them and saying like, okay, so what do you want me to do? Who do you want me to be? Which is teachers, teachers, bosses, friends, boyfriends would be boyfriends. They all became sort of who can I be? You know, and that's, and that I will credit the, the may he rest in peace. My, my last ex before miles who took me, took me. It was a weird, terrible relationship because mostly because I didn't know who I was and I was trying to be everything I thought he wanted me to be, which never works.
1
00:21:35
And he said, listen, I will never love you. No matter how skinny you are, how beautiful you become or that I think you are, or with you dye your hair, the guy laid it on the line. And I was devastated for like, I don't know, like a couple hours. And then I thought, somehow, praise be Jesus. I thought, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. If this dude is telling me that, no matter what I do, he's not going to love me. Then that means I don't have to try anymore and I can focus. I can do something else. Do you know what I mean? When, when I think about that, yes, I do know what you mean.
1
00:22:16
And when now that I'm, I've heard a little bit more about that experience of you. I actually kind of wonder, you know, maybe deep down inside, I know he was attractive or whatever, but maybe you also didn't really love him. You really, you really just needed him to validate you in some way. And so imagine if you could have gone back and known from the beginning that this was not going to be a romantic relationship and just how to measure a friend, which I eventually did have him as your friend. But if it could have been that way from the beginning, it could have been so much more. And we lost so much time because then he passed away.
1
00:22:56
So then we, I spent all my time trying to be something that I thought he wanted me to be. And he spent all his time trying to push me that away because I, and, and we, could've just been like the greatest friends and we should have been from the beginning. Yeah. He was attractive, but I didn't love him. You know? How could you, because he didn't love you. And
0
00:23:27
Today on the podcast, we're speaking with Blake Hackler. Blake is someone who went to the theater school at DePaul university and then left and then went on to go to two war theater schools. And now runs one. He's funny. He has wonderful insights about what it means to be a teacher and a leader. And he's quite entertaining. So please enjoy our conversation with Blake.
1
00:23:54
Oh my gosh. Now that I see your beautiful face, I totally remember you. And you're so young, how dare you? You look so, so young. How dare you show us? It's
2
00:24:06
It's all filters. It's all, you know, it's smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. Lots of lighting. Lots of intensity. That's
1
00:24:15
Good. That's good. Yeah. So lake Hackler, congratulations. Okay. You survived theater school on so many levels.
2
00:24:24
You survived through three times and now I run one. So I must be like, you know, for punishment or deepened to SMS.
1
00:24:33
Oh yeah. Well that could be too, but I think it's just amazing, like your, your not just your resume, your, your life experience history is glorious. You are by far one of the most interesting people that we've we've had on no pressure. Yeah.
2
00:24:52
You got Tim yet. Yes. Well, thank you very much for that. Thank you. Yeah.
1
00:24:55
For people listening, who don't know your resume, you're currently running a department of theater at SMU in Dallas. You did go to the theater school for two years, but then you went on to graduate from Roosevelt university and go to grad school at Yale school of drama. I mean, no big deal, no big deal. You really turn those lemons into lemonade. I have to say I tried. I tried. So tell us, tell us about your journey to ever decide to go to theater school in the first place. Oh yeah.
2
00:25:29
Well, you know what, I, so you'll probably hear it in the, in the interview. I am a stutterer and I I've said it since I was three years old and I was in speech therapy, you know, for probably 10 years when I was a kid. And, but, and so it's very strange that a stutter would be drawn to going into a field where they had to speak all the time. Right. But from the first time that I saw a show, like I knew that I wanted to be an actor. And so I was in children's theater when I was growing up. And, you know, I, I was trying to think about how I heard about the theater school.
2
00:26:11
And I think it was my best friend who sort of came in in high school and was like, we should go to this school. And I didn't know nothing about it at that point. But then I started to like research it and I found out the Geraldine page had
1
00:26:24
Gone there and
2
00:26:27
I was upset. You know, I was 16 and obsessed with, you know, a movie star from the fifties. But so I knew that she'd gone there. And then I started to do some research about it and, you know, I had growing up in and I wanted to go to hell like a big place. Right. So that's where I sort of set my sights on. I auditioned for a few more schools. I, and, and I addition for both music and theater. And so, and I was accepted to D to Paul for both things. What's the music
1
00:27:05
Like singing or you mean, oh, singing.
2
00:27:09
So, but I, I also knew that I would never be able to like, do what I really wanted to do in terms of like classical singing. Do you know? So, yeah. So I auditioned to DePaul, I auditioned a few other places where I auditioned at SUNY purchase B you where they were really mean. They were so mean at that audition.
1
00:27:30
Really? What do you mean? Like, just like behind the table, like yes.
2
00:27:35
Yeah. Like super stern. Like didn't like, you know, yeah. They were in fact. Yes. And I also addition that, oh, I auditioned at SMU and did not get accepted. Ha wow. You showed them one of the few schools that didn't get accepted that, and now I'm in charge of it. So, so yeah. So I went to Chicago to audition and, and I got in and, you know, came to the big city.
1
00:28:05
Is Dallas where you're from in Texas? No,
2
00:28:07
I'm from a smaller town up north called Amarillo. Oh yeah. You know? Yes.
1
00:28:19
I can see why you wanted to go to college elsewhere. Right.
2
00:28:22
She has put that out as soon as I possibly could. But why
1
00:28:26
SUNY purchase are they known for a great theater department? Yeah. What, at
2
00:28:30
That time, yes. Like they would want of that like top, top, top, you know? And, and you know, I think that they still are kind of up there, although you don't hear as much about them anymore. Yeah. But I think at that time, you know, it was like the theater school, Carnegie Mellon, SUNY purchase be you, what were the other like Julliard? Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Although I, you know, I didn't even like, even like dream like
1
00:29:00
Me neither. I was like Julliard that's for no way. Yeah. So what is your understanding about why you didn't get asked back after your second year?
2
00:29:16
Oh yeah. So this is kind of a long involved story. So I feel like can do it, do it second. So I sort of knew that I knew that it was a possibility because so in our second year, you know, we do those like seen like showings, right? Like, and everyone comes and watches and it's like a test. Right. So my first one was with Paul home quest and we did this great scene from a play called the Lisbon Traviata. And we did an amazing job if I do say so myself and no, it was, it was, it was really good.
2
00:30:00
Yeah. Dawn was super excited about it. And after that, so I got a lot of like, the faculty really thought it was great. They thought I did an amazing job, all of that. And then Dawn came in like that next week and was like, well, just get ready. Cause you're going to get cut. And I was like, why? I just did an amazing job at this. He's like, I know he's like, but these people have no imagination. And, and he's like, you did a great job, but you did a great job because so many things in your life right now are conspiring to like make, you know, what that scene is about. And he's like, what it shows is that you can do that thing.
2
00:30:42
Like you can do that kind of work, but you don't know how to like get there on a consistent. And, and he, he, he said, they will expect this kind of work every single time now. And if you don't do it, they will think that you, you know yeah. And he was 100%, right? Yeah. Yes. And so my official note, my official warning, it only had one thing on it. It, it said that I had a physical hold between my shoulder blades
1
00:31:19
And oh, you're kidding.
2
00:31:21
No, I am not. No, I
1
00:31:24
Did not say that on your physical
2
00:31:25
Hold between my shoulder blades. Yeah. That I needed to, to work on that. And so I think the, my third, my like my third, like show was with, it was the Norman conquests and it was with Patrice, I think. Yes. Yes. And so I spoke to her about it and I'm like, I need to work on this. And she's like, great. We will, you know, we will do that. But that was it. Like, that was the only thing. And my GPA was like, like a 3.8 or a 3.9. Like I had like super high grades. So the day that I found out was I, they, they had just had their like big faculty powwow.
2
00:32:10
And so Don calls me right after. And he's like, well, I told you, so he's like, you've been cut. And I was like, really? And he was like, yes. He's like, but you can have wide. He was like, it doesn't matter. He he's like, you're an actor. You're going to be totally fine. And I was like, Dawn, what do I do? And he's like, go and he's like, go to work, start auditioning. And then when you're ready to go back to school, you're going to be fine. And you know what I mean? And I think I just chose to believe him. I was like, okay,
1
00:32:45
This is the greatest story. Because one, because your impression of him is like, even like people can't see you, but you're doing this thing with that heat, which is, which is touching is anyway. I can tell you're such a fantastic actor, but also it's spot on. And we were just talking before you came on about mentorship, he really mentored you. Totally,
2
00:33:11
Totally. And we stayed friends for years and years after that, you know? I mean, he, he really, he, yeah, he was. So he, he believed so much in me. And I think he just realized, like, he sort of like recognize that I was sort of like an old timey, like, you know, like, I, I like, I love acting, I love talking about it. I love thinking about it. I love watching it. And he did too. Right. And oh yes,
1
00:33:42
Yes. Such a, he was such a true fan. And you're just actually making me realize why I liked him so much. Why he was my favorite teacher. He never bought, he never tried to promote this, the veil of theater school. He never tried to. I mean, he never said anything to me as directly, as he said to you, which was completely the right thing to say, it doesn't really matter. It's, you know? Yes. You want a degree. Yes. You hate to not be able to finish something that you started, but at the end of the day, nobody, nobody in an audition asks, you know, for where you went to school. But the idea that people like me in BAAs, as we talked about so much on here were totally bought into the veil.
1
00:34:26
The myth of it, the, this supposedly rumored implied greatness was supposed to come out of getting a degree there. So that was kind of actually a big favor. I
2
00:34:37
Think he did. No. Yeah. I mean, I think in, in, in so many ways it was really the best thing that could have happened. Do you know? And so I, I took a year off and I, I did children. I immediately auditioned, I got into a touring children's theater and I did the diary of Anne Frank and Charlotte's web like 200 times that next year. And then I also worked backstage at the Royal George theater and yeah. And, and like just started like, you know, that, and then after a year I was like, okay, I think I can go back to school.
2
00:35:18
And, you know, Roosevelt Roosevelt was a mess. I mean, it was a total mess, but it was a mess at that time in a really good way, because they had a lot of great things to offer. But you, as a student had to be super proactive about like, what do I want to learn? You know, how much am I? Because no one, unlike the theater school, no one was standing over you saying like, you will do these things. It was like, do them or don't. And so a lot of students were like, I am not going to do them, but I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. You know? And so it sort of sort of built up a way of being in the world that would stand me in good stead as an actor, you know, because it's like, no one cares no way, if you do your shit.
2
00:36:07
Right.
1
00:36:08
Which is so, it's so interesting. It's like, w what you both said, it's like never in an audition in my life has someone said, oh, you made it through the theater school. Oh, you were cut. And then it's not that it's the work. It's look at the work, look at the person, look at the work. And it's like, you went to Roosevelt knowing, I think who you were as an actor and wanted to make the most out of it. And it sounds like it really launched. You tell him that.
2
00:36:38
Yeah. I mean, there were great folks there. And, and what it also allowed me to do is that it allowed me to keep working in the city. So like, I, I would do shows at school, but then I also would do shows in the city. And my, my last year at Roosevelt, I did a show called the Irish and how they got that way, which was at the mercury theater. Yeah. Yeah. And it, it was, it wound up being, I think, like a 6, 16, 15 month run. Like I got to like do that, and that was paying my, you know, like my, my food and my rent and that got me my card as well. So that, that sort of like paved the way so that as soon as I graduated, I could go straight to New York and start auditioning, you know, and, and like that wouldn't have happened if, if, if we weren't allowed to work outside of school.
2
00:37:31
Right. Oh, yeah.
1
00:37:33
So then what, how did your experience at Yale compare to those other two programs?
2
00:37:40
Oh, yeah. I mean, so there was at Yale that was like theater school, right. I mean, you know, in terms of the intensity, you know, we were, we were in classes and, or in rehearsal from eight in the morning until 11 at night, sometimes to like one or two at night. And that was six days a week, you know, so yeah. It w it w it was hardcore and much like the theater school, you know, there were, most of the teachers were really amazing, but then, you know, there were classes that you would take and you'd be like, what, what is happening? Like, why, why do I need to know about Balinese masks and nothing, you know, is happening in this space?
2
00:38:28
Yeah.
1
00:38:29
Balinese masks are very cool, but
2
00:38:32
Yeah. Oh yes. Super, super cool. But I'm like, but I'm not sure what I'm learning, and I'm not sure why I'm paying for this and, you know, all of that. Right. But I mean, what, what was amazing about Yale was that, you know, when I was choosing a grad school, like, I, I, it was really, I had been accepted at Yale and at and at, at, at NYU. And so I was, and, you know, NYU was also an amazing school, but NYU is really about the making of an actor. Like it was super focused on the actor. And Yale was really about sort of making a collaborative sort of, you know, because the actors who were really in service to the playwrights, to the directors, and in, in many ways, they're, the actors were sort of low person on the totem pole, you know, I mean, like we were like low down, do you know?
2
00:39:27
And, and there was something appealing about that. And so what was great at Yale is that you really learned how to collaborate. I learned how to work really fast and really tired. So, you know, w and, and, and to not be precious about anything, it's like, I, the, we have, you know, two hours of rehearsal, we got to put this thing up. What, like, what are the necessities, like, what can I go to in my work and my technique that I can just pound, like, you know, like, yes, I want to have weeks to like, think about this and, you know, process it and all of that, but we don't have time, you know, let's get down to it.
2
00:40:11
And so Yale was really great about that. I mean, Yale's sort of worked, and, and in many ways, I think this was the theater school too, you know, with this sort of culture of exhaustion. And, you know, and now that I'm in charge of a theater school and can make sort of some choices about how the, you know, the, the environment is, you know, I go back and forth on this. I mean, it's not healthy to be exhausted all the time, you know, and, and, but there's something to be said for sort of being in that and that being so tired that you stop worrying about what you look like, what people are thinking about, you, like, you know, you just start to let go of those things.
1
00:41:03
That's true. For as much as we complain about the ways in which we could sometimes be treated at the theater school, there is something, there is a kind of resilience that Springs out of having no other choice, but to do it that way, whether you got one hour of sleep or 10 hours of sleep, I sometimes wish there was a better way to instill that.
2
00:41:28
Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. You know, but
1
00:41:32
I, I think it from it also is that the, when you say the culture or, you know, of exhaustion, it is, it is obviously bigger than just theater school. It's our country, it's the world, but it's, it does, it does force, it forced me anyway to dig deep. So then when I was out in the world and someone was like, actually, you have to do 17 things at once. I was like, okay, I can do it. I don't love it, but I can do it. If I could just ask you a question, you know, how you were able to look at theater schools for graduate school in a way that I have never heard before, which is that you were looking at the schools as, as how they looked at acting and the actor.
1
00:42:15
I think that's brilliant. I didn't look at anything that you were able to say, okay, Yale is this type of school and NYU is this type of school. How were you able to do that? You know
2
00:42:26
What I think? And like, and this is advice that I give to a lot of my students too. I'm like, you need to, like, after you are done with undergraduate, you need to take a few years off. Like, you need to take time off. You need to go and like, live work, do whatever you want so that you can come so that when you apply to graduate school, you've lived some, and you know what, you're actually like, you know, what you need. Right. And so after, after I graduated from Roosevelt, I moved to New York and I started to work, you know?
2
00:43:09
And, and so I worked in New York for three years and I came up against like, what I was really good at, and then what I was not, you know, and I was really good at the kind of like Donta Donta. Like I'm, you know, I have like lots of energy and like, you know, I can like sell it and all of that, you know, and I was good at sort of being like, I knew who I was, I know what I brought into a room, but I wasn't great at being a collaborator. You know? And I also, I also knew that I had an ego that bordered on the unhealthy sometimes, you know, I mean, part of that is a necessity, right?
2
00:43:54
Like part of it, we have to, as actors, some part of us has to know, okay, I'm fucking good. Like, I am, I'm real good. We, we have to have that. Right. We have to have that sense, but, but then, you know, you also have to be able to have that. And then also be like, when I walk into this room, I am in service, I'm in service to the other actors, I'm in service to the director, I'm in service to the vision that we're all. And I knew that I needed that. Right. And so in New York, for those three years, I'd had, I had been able to, with people who had gone to NYU, to Yale, to, to art, to act, to like all of those places and all of the school look, all of those actors did have a particular kind of feel in the room.
2
00:44:48
Right. And the NYU actors were always so like alive and Sparky and, you know, like they really knew what they were worth and what they were bringing into the room, you know, and the Yale actors were. So again, like, just so sort of practical and kind of like, aha. Yeah, what's next. Cool, sure. We can do that. And I knew that I was more like the, the NYU actor and less like the Yale one. And I was like, okay. So I need more of that in my life. And, and you know, what the thing about Yale is is that it really taught me. And I think it teaches people how to be like a self sustaining hardest.
2
00:45:34
Do you know how you can make work even when you are not, you know, in a show or, you know, and in a film, you know, how you can live a life that is about being an artist, thinking like an artist. And, you know, that's one of my big sort of takeaway from my time there, that's
1
00:45:56
Hugely important a little bit ago, you mentioned preciousness, which is a topic we Rav really haven't talked about on this podcast before. And I'm not sure why we haven't, because it's such a big part of theater school and theater and actors, you know, actors are tend to be, and it's not even like good actors are not precious and bad actors are. It's just this thing that we're contending with is, and I think it's because we feel so we, we feel so much reverence for theater and acting as actors that we can't help, but sort of put that into what we're doing. And of course it becomes boring if that's all you can access as the preciousness of it.
1
00:46:36
And I love the idea that a pedagogy for teaching theater would include very explicitly, like this idea that let's, don't be precious about it. Did you, do you bring that to SMU? Do you kind of imbue your program with that?
2
00:46:51
You know what I think I tried to, and I think that we have a faculty that, that, that really tries to stay on the, you know, listen, there's, there's so much about acting that is, that is magical. Do you know, like when it really happens when it really takes off, when you're in the presence of great work, it's kind of magical, do you know? So I'm, you know, I've I've, and I think that's so important, but from a training standpoint, from like a technical standpoint, like, I, I want us to invest in, okay, what is in your power as an actor? Like, what can you control?
2
00:47:33
And then if you have a firm grasp of those things, then magical things can happen. Do you know? And again, this idea of being, of being in service to, like, I think that, that, that has saved me in my life so many times. Yes. And I always think like, you know, as actors, when we walk into the room, can I be of service to my partner? And if I am of service to my partner and get the more that I can get off of myself and be in service to them, the better my work is,
1
00:48:12
It's so true and the better, and the less afraid I am and the less afraid I am, the more powerful my work has the potential to be. So it's so great to hear you say that because it's the only thing I've had, like recent bouts of stage frame. And I, I, it's the only thing that saves me is, wait a minute, wait a minute. How can I be of service to the words that I'm saying, and my partner, who I'm saying them to, and the playwrighter, whoever it's the only thing. So I'm so grateful that, that you have brought that to, to your young actors. And that it's something that you, that you obviously feel is super important in a training program, because it is, and it sounds like Yale fostered that,
2
00:48:53
You know, and, and, and I think too, like when we are in service to the other, like what, what, what, what, what young actors come to, what they'll start to see in their classmates when that happens is that then we're able to actually see more of the human being that, you know, like they start to reveal more of themselves by thinking less of themselves, you know? And I think that, I think that something that is so important to me and I, you know, I really appreciated about Dawn too, is that Don was really interested, at least in my experience of bringing out each student's personhood, like, what is, you know, what is the thing that you have?
2
00:49:46
What is your mojo? What is your stuff? And it can be odd. It can be eccentric. It can be, you know, but w what do you have, let's bring your full and let's, and let's, let's honor the wonderful weirdness about you. You know? And, and I, I, I think I really try to bring that out in my students too, you know, that there's not one way an actor looks an actor talks and, you know, yeah.
1
00:50:19
That's, and that's, that's representation for you. I mean, the more you can get away from preciousness and to the authenticity of you are, and embracing all the ways in which you, you are different than other people, but with the same common human experience, I think the more powerful and meaningful the work is, but you are also a playwright. And so when did you start writing and how did that become a big part of what you do?
2
00:50:46
Yeah. Do you know what I, I mean, at Roosevelt, I took a playwriting class, and so I started to kind of write then, and, but I didn't think a lot about it, and it really wasn't until Yale and we have the cabaret there. And so that's like a student run theater. And in the cabaret, even if you're an actor you could write or, you know, you, you can do all kinds of things there. And, you know, we were actors. So we were always griping about our playwrights and being like, well, they don't know how to write a play. And, you know, I could do a better job. Meanwhile, the playwrights, my year, where Amy Herzog, TRL Tarell, Alvin McCraney, Sarah Treem.
2
00:51:34
I mean, so we, we knew nothing. We were stupid, you know? And so one of my friends was like, well, if we think that we can do a better job, we should do it. And so I was like, I wonder if I could actually write a play, you know? So I wrote a musical for the cabaret, and then we took that to the New York fringe. And then after that, I, so after I graduated from Yale, I enrolled, I was a part of the, there's a program in New York called the, the BMI layman angle, musical theater workshop. And so it's, it's, it's, it's free, it's two years long and you meet once a week and you learn how to write a musical and your teachers are people like, like, you know, Steven Schwartz and Bobby Lopez and yeah.
2
00:52:29
And I mean, totally free. So I did that. And then I started writing musicals, which was weird. And, and then, and then I just kind of stopped doing anything for a couple of years. I got really sick. And so I just sort of stopped doing anything except, you know, the essential things for a couple of years. And so then when I moved to Dallas, I started writing again. And so then, yeah. And so since then, I've written probably a couple of plays a year.
1
00:53:06
Why is writing musicals? It's weird. I mean,
2
00:53:09
It's just so writing a musical is so hard. It's like the hardest thing I've I've ever done. And, you know, the musical theater world is such a strange and interesting and yeah, I mean, it, it was just a weird time. Like I was, I was out of Yale. I was teaching full time, auditioning some, and then writing musicals that I don't know quite where, which way I'm going to go, you know, and my agents and my manager were like, you need to go this way, but I really, you know, I didn't, after I graduated from Yale, I didn't one, I sort of knew while we were doing showcase and I was taking, you know, like tons of meetings.
2
00:54:04
I was like, oh, I, I can do this, but I'm not built for this. I am not built. Like I don't have the equipment to go to Los Angeles and to really do what I need to do in terms of like, like I can act. And I'm good at that. I am not good at doing all of the other things that are necessary to build a career, you know, like say more about that going in and going into, into all of those rooms.
2
00:54:47
I'm super introverted. Right. So I can do those kinds of those kinds of things, but they cost me a lot. And I was thinking, oh, I, in order to build a career here, I'm going to have to do this all the time. And I'm also going to have to be content with, if, if I'm super lucky working three weeks a year, do you know what I mean? Like having, having like three or four guest spots and like that's a great year and I'm going to have to be okay with that too.
2
00:55:28
And I was like, I just am not. And also like knowing also the kinds of things I would have been cast in. Like I marketed, I marketed, I marketed myself in a really specific way that I knew that, you know, they would respond to and they did. And then I was like, well, Blake, you marketed herself in that way. That's what you're going to get cast. Right. That's not really what you're interested in doing, you know, so I had all these conflicting feelings. And so it was a period of not knowing. I was like, do I do I really just want to teach full time because that's what I really love.
2
00:56:08
Am I going to write, am I going to act on this? Like, what am I going to do? You know, one
1
00:56:13
Of the most sad things in life is when you're really good at something that you don't like doing. I hate that. I ha there's a few things. It's like, no, I want to good at doing this other thing. I don't care about being good at this thing. So I have a very sorry about that noise. I have a very complicated relationship with musicals. When I was a kid, I went to lots of them and I loved what I always love about theater with that, whether it's good or bad is the spectacle of it. The pageantry of it, I'm the person who will get focused on one chorus member and try to find them in every scene and like develop the whole story in my mind about when I would watch the garden variety musicals.
1
00:56:57
I, nah, I can't say that I ever felt moved by them. But then in high school I took a trip to New York and I saw Les Miz. And my story about lame is, is that I sat in the intermission. I couldn't stop crying, just sobbing and sobbing. And I couldn't believe how meaningful and beautiful this story was. So is it that musical theater is for us just to, there's just like a person who loves musical theater and then there's people who aren't that into it, or is it really that it's just so hard to craft a really compelling story. That's both, you know, musical and meaningful.
2
00:57:39
I think it's mostly the latter, right? I think that when a musical is good, it's the best thing ever. Right. And what musicals do better than any other art form is they are a container for the expression of just like overflowing joy. Like, you know, nothing can do joy, like a musical can. And so when that happens, like it lifts us out of our seat, but it's so rarely happens. Right? So that when you see an actor, who's brilliant in musicals, that person is a brilliant actor.
2
00:58:23
Like that's one of the, that's the hardest thing to make happen, you know? And so, so many things have to come together to make a musical really fly. And you know, a lot of times when we see things in New York, they've been, they've, they've been, they've been running for eight years, six years, four years. And the actors for the most part are tired. They're collecting a paycheck. You know, they're doing a job, but they don't have that thing anymore. But occasionally you'll go to see one and, you know, one that's new one that's only been running for a year and everyone in the company still has that feeling.
2
00:59:04
And, and, and when, and when that happens, it's, it's just it's overwhelming.
1
00:59:10
Or, or my thing was musicals is I used to be obsessed with watching high school news hall because the students had that same Bernadette Peters. I made like a tour of, of, of the Chicago land area of watching high school musicals. I saw, I saw which one was it. I saw an into the woods that was so earnest that I was like, I was the only one, but at the end I stood up and was giving a standing ovation. It's the same thing, that thing that like a Bernadette Peters had in, in into the woods that this, that this, you know, 14 year old had it was that, that love of the musical so much that I was like, I believe in you.
1
00:59:56
And it was so magic. So when it happens, it's magic and every other time it's sorta like, and by the way, that's a whole genre on YouTube high school musicals and people make these amazing compilations, like there's one called 29 rock seeds or something like that. And it's like 29 of the same, you know, the same part of the same show. And just, but I a hundred percent agree with you. It's when the actor feels in it. That's the magic of it is undeniable. And when they're not, it doesn't matter how good the whole production is. It's you're, it's, it's not, it's not taking you anywhere.
2
01:00:35
Right. It's just like Shakespeare, right? Like 94% of Shakespeare that I see sucks. It's bad news, but I keep going because every once in a while I'm like, oh my, oh my God, it's so good. You know? Yes. You know? And so when it really hits, there's nothing better. Yeah. I
1
01:00:59
Know in the last year what the answer is, but previous to COVID did you get to, do you get to see a lot of shows in Dallas?
2
01:01:05
You know, I, I don't see as many as I should because most of the time I'm doing the show. Right. So, and then like the last thing I want to do after I've been doing shows is to go see shows, but I will say that during COVID what I've done, which has been just the most amazing thing ever is. And I know it's not the same, but I've streamed tons and tons. And like, like this, these LA, this last week, I was streaming the, the I'm going to say it wrong, the Berlin theater FN. So each year they have a festival where they invite all the best shows of that year to Berlin and they show them over a period of two weeks.
2
01:01:48
So they've been streaming that, so those shows without going, I mean, like, you know, the wildest, weirdest theater ever, you know, so I've been streaming tons and tons and tons of shows.
1
01:02:02
That's cool. And I've been hearing that one of the good things that's coming out of the pandemic theater wise is that people have just been rethinking a bunch of stuff about accessibility. And I think it's Jeremy O. Harris who has this whole vision of like VR and being able to have a VR theater experience that you're sending to classrooms all over the country and world and something innovative and exciting. It's definitely going to be coming out of it.
2
01:02:29
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were just in a meeting, we were in a meeting yesterday talking about this and saying how, you know, even though we're going to go back to, you know, small in-person shows next year, that we're going to keep live stream as, as part of our thing, you know, just for that very reason for accessibility, you know? Yeah.
1
01:02:55
Are you on the, do you watch auditions for people to come into your school?
2
01:03:01
The undergraduate Edison's I do. I do graduate auditions.
1
01:03:07
Yes. Yes. What are you looking for? Can I ask what are you looking for in an actress?
2
01:03:12
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Because I'm thinking about this,
1
01:03:19
I really want to go to grad school. She's already done like three of them, different color. She came in to apply it to your school.
2
01:03:27
Cut off. You're cut off. I look. Okay. So one of the horrible things that we have to go through is that we have to, we have to do a lot of our recruitment at this thing called great and Erna is, is both great because it allows people to audition for tons of schools for one small fee. And it allows tons of schools to see tons of actors. Right. So that's wonderful. The bad thing about it is that every actor gets like three minutes and that's it. And it's like timed and you're on and you're off and it's super quick.
2
01:04:10
So it's the least conducive, the least friendly, the least caring, you know, I mean, there's no other way that they could really do it. Right. But that's, so when I watch auditions there, I concentrate a lot less on how good the actual like work is. And more on, I'm really interested in how they walk on how they say their name, how they transition between the two pieces and how they walk off. Because what I'm really interested in is in, in, in, in this terrible fraught time, these, these three minutes are they, am I able to see some of who they are?
2
01:04:55
Are they able to breathe? Are they able to be unguarded for a moment? Are they able to show what they're feeling right. You know, right then, or are they covered? And so a lot of times I'll call people back who have not done like amazing work, but walked on and said their name. And I can see some of who they are, you know? So that's the first thing. And yeah,
1
01:05:27
I have to say a side note here. That is the exact same. So I worked at PR casting for a while in Chicago. The same thing that I look at and that we looked at was how they opened the door, how they entered the room, how they slated their name, that's where you can tell so much. It's so interesting for theater. It's the same, even though the medium is different for Philadelphia and the way I want to know.
2
01:05:52
Yes. I mean, because it is, can they still be a person? Can they still be who they are even in this really, really tense moment. Do you know? And, and, and then when I talked to them afterwards and like work with them again, I'm not necessarily interested in how good or bad the work is. I'm interested in how flexible they are. And this thing that Ron, Ron van Lew, who taught us at Yale and who was who, who's just amazing, amazing, amazing. Ron would say, I want to actors who bounce, meaning that you can have a really bad day.
2
01:06:37
You can, you know, you can get raked over the coals. You can fall on your face and the next day you show up and you're like, okay, let's go. And I'm really interested in that too. I'm, I'm interested in resilience. And, and I think, I think, I, I think one can tell a little bit of that just by talking to people. Oh, a
1
01:07:06
Hundred percent. Or like, if you, if you give a note and then you ask them to incorporate, you're probably not doing that at auditions very much, but for, for the school that be more happening for shows. But you're also making me think about something in a way I've never thought about it before. Which is that when people are applying to your school, w we can assume that they want to learn how yes. Yes. And so that being equal, then the next thing is, can you teach them, are they a teachable person? Are they a person who's coming to you ready to learn? Or are they a person who's coming to you ready for you to appreciate how great they already are?
1
01:07:47
How terrible they already are. I mean, you know, it could go either way, but you want to be working with somebody who is implicitly and explicitly saying to you, yeah. Te tell me what you got. I'm ready. I'm ready to take it in. So true. And I just realized, yeah, like I've been doing this all wrong, but there is still hope. There is still hope, because I think I'm learning from this. And from talking to people on this podcast, that like, the thing that I think is not going to get me where I want to be is actually the thing that's going to get me where I want to be. So that's fantastic news.
2
01:08:24
It's like an, like everything that, how do I say this? Everything that we put on top of ourselves, because we think it is the thing that they want. I'm going to do it this way, because they want this. I'm going to do it this way, because they want this, oh, I should, you know, like, I should look like this. I should be like this, all of that, just conspires to hide the very thing that will get us hired. Very,
1
01:08:51
Very, that very, that much,
2
01:08:54
You know, because, okay, because not everyone wants to buy this. They don't, I am not for all markets, you know, and because I am five, four, and because I am clearly, you know, I, I am, I am queer and I don't hide it. And because I stutter, maybe my market of what I'm going to be right for, and what I'm going to be hireable for is smaller. Right. But I am these things, this is who I am. And so if you want to buy it, if it, if I'm right for it, I'm really right for it. And anything I do to cover that up is gonna keep me from, you know, keep you from seeing who I am and what I bring into the room.
2
01:09:40
Do you know? So I think that all of the things that people like, I see my students, like all of the things that they want to deemphasize, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Open that up, bring that out, allow that to come out and play in you, you know, easier
1
01:09:56
Said than done, but yeah, that's totally the goal.
2
01:09:59
It's a life's work, you know, it's, it's a life's work. But I mean, I, I think that an acting education is an education in personhood. It's an education in owning who you are as a human being and being okay with that. You're like, this is what I bring to the table and I can always improve if I want to, I can always change if I want to, but this is who I am. And I am proud of that.
1
01:10:28
Now that you're on this side of the, of things, theater school, any things evolved for you in terms of your impressions of your own teachers and administrators in the bed? I,
2
01:10:42
I thought a lot about the faculty at, at the theater school. And you know, what I would say is that for the most part I had, I had a great experience there and I've heard other folks talk about them. So, you know, my first year I had, I had David F Collie. Right. And like a couple of folks I listened, I mean is deeply problematic, deeply problematic. And I fucking loved that class. Do you know, like I loved him. And I like in, in our first year class, I think there were like 14, right around like 14.
2
01:11:26
And the only people that were not cut from my first year section with him were me and Scott. Ellingworth 12 people in my class were 12 of them. And I remember him saying once, so we were in class and it was towards the end. And actually Scott and I talked about this a couple of years ago, David turned to the class at, we had been, we'd been, you know, doing some kind of, you know, space improv, you know, whatever. And David turned to the class and was like, this class is like a runaway train. He's like, 12 of you are in the caboose and two are in the engine.
2
01:12:13
And sometimes you just have to pull the pins. Yes. I think, I think we're in the engine. I'm pretty sure. I think we're in the engine, right? Yeah. Also, also
1
01:12:27
Everybody probably thought they were in the engine, right? Yes.
2
01:12:31
We, there was another time in that class. We had a woman in the class who was an older student and I say older, I mean, she was probably like 25, but I was like, oh, she's a senior citizen. Right. You know, but I remember, and she, you know, she was, she should not have been at school. She should not have been accepted. It wasn't right for her. And I remember David saying to her, at one point she had just finished an improv and he said, I've been trying to teach you for two terms. And you've learned nothing. He said, we have, you know, eight weeks left. He said, let's make a deal.
2
01:13:12
I will pretend to teach you. And you will pretend to learn. I we'll get through it. And she just sort of smiled and nodded, and I don't think he ever spoke to her again in class.
1
01:13:26
Never. Oh, yes, yes.
2
01:13:28
Wow. But having said all of that, I, I did learn a ton in that class. I learned a ton and I, I remember early on, it was like, I had done a thing and he just laid into me. I mean, it was screaming at me and cursing at me and, you know, just tearing me apart. And I went to him after class was over. And I was like, I was like, I totally understand what you were saying. I'm like, but just, you don't have to talk to me like that. Like I get it. And I, you don't like, you can, you don't have to talk to me like that. And he was like, okay. And then he, he didn't, he never screamed at me again like that very like, you know, stone, because he was, you know, but he never attacked me like that again, which, which makes me think like, which makes me question, like, because what was that like, was that thing he did was that sort of rage in his conscious control because certainly some of it was, you know, right.
2
01:14:38
So, but, but I did have other, like, I mean, so I, again, I learned a ton from him, Ruth root Berg who taught me voice there. I mean, she really, in so many ways, she cha she saved my life. I mean, when I went to theater school, I stuttered much more and she pulled me aside and she was like, let's work privately. And so she worked with me all year and my speech and my stuttering was transformed after that year. And she just did that. Like, she just wanted to help me, you know?
1
01:15:14
Yeah. Was that, would you say that the thing that made it better was your ability to relax or what what's, what accounted for?
2
01:15:23
Yeah, I think, you know, stuttering is still in, in so many ways a mystery, but what the Linklater worked really worked on was finding a constant breath flow. And so that as a stutterer, when I am in a constant flow of breath, I don't stutter. And what starts to happen is when I do stutter a little bit, I start to hold my breath and then that just goes to multiply and multiply and multiply. And so what we were really working on with Ruth was just finding a consistent airflow. And I didn't know that at the time, do you know, but that's what was happening. And so I probably went from being 70% fluent to being like 95% fluent.
2
01:16:07
And so, I mean, she, she was, she was huge in my life and yeah. And, you know, Dawn was, was, was amazing. He was, you know, I really only had like, I mean, out of all the teachers I had there, I think I only had one that I thought was just like, and that I still think was just like sucked, you know? Yeah. Like Trudy Kessler sucked. She was terrible. This weekend. Agree. Yeah. She didn't want to be teaching voice. She wanted to be teaching acting. So she was bitter about that. She was so unhelpful. Like I did my first, those, I don't know what, what they were called, but like, you know, your, your year two intro.
2
01:16:51
Yes. I did my first intro with her. And it was the only class at my two years at Yale that I made less than an a N I made, I made a C in that, in that intro. And I, I, you mean at the theater, I was like, they let that lady you. And I'm like, and I remember struggling and like asking for like help. And she just kept telling me that what I was doing was wrong. And it was just like unbelievably unhelpful, unhelpful, negative sour. Yeah. I mean, so still to this day, I'm like, ah, she, she kinda sucked as a teacher and it's okay to say that because she should hear that.
2
01:17:37
Yeah.
1
01:17:37
And you can even have the compassion of like, okay, now that I'm her age, the age that she was, then I can understand the ways in which life can span. And it could have been very simple as like, there were only male acting teachers that she couldn't break in. But that said with wisdom comes the knowledge that you should, you know, that you have, do you have to check that at the door in certain moments in life and teaching students is death. Very, definitely one of those moments.
2
01:18:04
Oh my God. You know, it's such a, like I, and listen, I've made so many mistakes as a teacher and I've done so many things that I look back on and I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I did that. Or I can't believe I said that. Do you know? Because walking into a room is you're so responsible in, in, in, in, in a different way than you are when you're teaching an accounting class or an English class. Right. Because as an acting teacher, I'm working with the human being in front of me. And I gotta be so aware that anything I say, even offhanded, the smallest thing can lodge in someone's mind and mess them up for four years.
1
01:18:47
Right? Yes. We've seen that in the pot or have a lot of it. It has influenced people's one sentence has influenced 40 years Paul
2
01:18:58
Hearing that he didn't have a voice for what, what, and, you know, and she could have meant nothing by that. Right. No blood, he heard it, it lodged in him and it changed him. And, and so there's always such a balance between doing okay, how do I say the thing that needs to be said, what, when is the right time to save this thing? Because some days it's just not the right day to say the thing that needs to be said, you know? And so it's waiting on that day. Yes. And it's knowing that every other student in the class sees that thing and is like, why is it Blake saying X to this?
2
01:19:43
You know, like why?
1
01:19:44
Yeah. You have to, you have to treat tough love, like a semi-automatic weapon. You know, you have to be very aware of the power, the destructive power of it. Well, we all were just about having to wrap up, but I, I wish we could talk for hours and hours. I want you to be my act. You'll be hearing from me and also your, your, he thank you so much. You've been one of the most interesting people
2
01:20:14
We've listened. Thank you. Listen, I, this podcast is so amazing. I'm having my students listen to it, actually. Yeah. Cool. I just think it's so great to like, go back and like, think through that time, because it was such an intense, intense, formative time, and you all are doing such a service to like, let people relive it and kind of a safe, you know, nurturing way and to get to talk about it, you know, because yeah, because it transformed all of us and made all of us who we are in so many ways.
1
01:20:48
Oh, absolutely. So tell people where they can find you.
2
01:20:51
Oh, I'm not a big social media person. I do have a website. Great. tackler.com. Easy enough. I'm on Instagram, but I've never posted because I don't know how to yeah. We can help you through it. If you wanna look for me,
0
01:21:21
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: It's a loooooooooong con. Boz rocks it on #coverfly
Let Me Run This By You: Are #stans just modern day gladiator fans? Also, Bhutan.
Interview: We talk to Sean Gunn about
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I mean, nothing ever feel, I, sometimes I have the spotlight. I'm wonder if anybody ever
1
00:00:32
Feels just really chill. I think there are some people who they wake up and they're just like, yeah, I'm going to do this and this and this. And I'm going to, I just always feel like there's so much clamoring in the back of my brain for attention, you know, I guess it's really just anxiety. I guess that's what it is. I just have a lot of anxiety and I grew up having no idea about that. And I remember saying, you know, kind of early on in my relationship with Aaron like that, I didn't relate to anger and he just laughed and laughed.
1
00:01:12
He goes, are you kidding me? You were so anxious. I, it was news to me. I had no idea. And then it's like, oh yeah, that makes that's. That's why I do that. That makes sense. I don't know. Bottom line is I never feel chill, but sometimes I feel less anxious. I feel the same way. Like I don't ever feel, I think I, I think I'd have to be heavily drugged to feel really chill. And then it doesn't last. And also there's something to be said for like, you know, anxiety is a motivator too. So like yeah, all those things are motivators.
1
00:01:53
So I feel like my anxiety, it's so interesting when I've been like profoundly depressed. I would say twice, two episodes in my life. I've also been anxious and I'm sort of grateful for the anxiety because it course gets to going. I'm not a depressed person that stays in the bed. I may pay surround and look crazy, but I'm not someone who sleeps for 12 hours a day. And look, I'm not saying I'm, I just feel like my anxiety was a motivator it's course, me too. Like, it was so uncomfortable that I was like, okay, well I have to get help or get out of this house or get, do something different because this is intolerable, you know?
1
00:02:35
Yeah. You got to switch it up, but anyway, I'm so eager to hear about you. You made a brave, bold move and you set your amazing Nicholas stage. I don't think I said on this podcast, how much I love your pilot is so good. It's truly, it's so good. And, and what was especially fun for me considering that we are working on writing other things together is that I, I read it for the first time when the, that draft was already done. So I really got to experience it like an audience member the whole time. It was, it was such a page Turner anyway, so you sent it to Nicholas cage.
1
00:03:15
So, so, okay. So the, alright, I entered it. Okay. A long time ago, I entered it into this log line contest before it was written spoiler alert. And, and then they've said, we want to see a full script so that if you listen to the podcast, you know, like we may have put on here. Right. That I, anyway, I wrote the thing really short. And then I, I I've been working on subsequent drafts, like over and over with my mentor, Don. All right. So then that same company had a D a, a diversity initiative for women and people of color and all kinds of things to, to enter a script into you get like a free log line, class pitch class.
1
00:03:59
And if you win and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I love this company, roadmap, writers love them. I just find everyone I've met with has been amazing. And they're literally, their job is helping writers. And of course they have classes and stuff like that, but they actually seem to really give a shit, which is fantastic. So I entered hold my calls is my pilot into their contest. And by the time this airs it'll be common knowledge. So I got, I got second place. So they, I know, I know I so awesome out of a lot of scripts. And part of that is then I didn't realize any of this. So this is such a news. They start. And then I submitted through cover, fly to them, and then they rank your script.
1
00:04:44
I didn't know that. And so my script was in the top 9% out of 50,000 scripts on, on cover fly. Yeah. And I have to say it it's, it's, it's especially amazing because every contest does have, you know, there's so many writers out there who are just dying to, to be noticed. And, and there are so many opportunities for it, but a lot of them don't lead anywhere, but this was like a prestigious thing. And to be in the top 10, 9% is an unbelievable accomplishment.
1
00:05:26
Thank you. Thank you. And I feel like, what do I feel like? I feel like all it's a long con that's just what I keep saying. Like, people are like, people ask me too, and I've heard this before of other writers and people in the industry talking about this. People keep asking me that aren't in the industry, what's happening with your writing. And I'm like nothing. And a lot of things. And I, something like, I think in, we've said it on this podcast that I have to stop equating success with a paycheck because you need a paycheck to live. That is, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're not gonna, they don't go hand in hand. Like, it's not like I won prize money for this, but you win a further, like you said, noticing and further exposure and, and like, so that we can move forward in this industry.
1
00:06:17
And it, it doesn't always, it doesn't look like a paycheck. I just, yeah. And, and R I'll, I'll just put the caveat that I'm sure that there are lots of professions that this is true about, but I only know about this one. So in, in the artistic field, it's kind of, I mean, what's the norm for us would not be the norm for other fields that we could spend thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars in many years, investing in ourselves. And that's the whole concept of like the overnight success, because nobody's an overnight success. Everybody has already invested a lot of time, energy, money, et cetera into it.
1
00:07:00
And it's just that. And you know, and frankly, when people say actors get paid too much, I mean, sometimes I agree with it. And other times I'm like, yeah, but you don't know, you only see their successes. You don't see the 99% of the time that they're failing. I think it comes. That is exactly, exactly right on it. And I think even like influencer culture, look, those people have invested in. I'm not saying it's, if aliens come down and say, see, they're going to, it's going to make sense. What I'm saying is they have invested these, anytime you see someone who is in the public eye, or like doing something, someone who is being noticed for something, unless it's totally random has invested in what they're doing.
1
00:07:47
You may not agree with it. And you may not think it's art, but they look, I've never met someone who has found notoriety or gotten notice that hasn't put some amount of work into their cultivating, their even cultivating their brand, the Kardashians, a real Housewives, that's a whole cultivation situation. You know what I mean? It really is. It really is. And it takes as much work as anything else. And yeah, we have all these weird ideas about like what constitutes work. And I get caught in that sometimes too. Like, technically this is technically the thing that I spend all of my time that I'm not taking care of my family doing is my hobby, but it doesn't feel like a hobby.
1
00:08:30
It feels like I'm, you know, running as fast as I can to get a career online and that, and, and when I'm eventually paid for it, it'll be like, yeah, that's what I was doing this whole time. Right. And, and I feel like it there's the other thing of like, it, it could happen. It feels like you can go from, I was talking to a friend who's not in the industry last night. Like you can go from $0 to $600,000 in a night, but that's really back pay for all the work you've been doing and forward pay. Cause you may not get that $600,000 again.
1
00:09:12
Absolutely. So managing money,
0
00:09:16
Let me run this by you to run by you is
1
00:09:23
So I'm really interested in and fascinated by, in this, in a similar way as how I'm fascinated by influencer culture. I'm really fascinated by fandom or Stan culture. And, and I spend a lot of time hearing about it in my various cultural things that I consume. I kind of, I feel like I kind of know a lot about fandom, but what I'm wondering about is what is the basic human need that fandom fills? Because I know it's a basic Mead, I'm not sick.
1
00:10:07
I'm not sick. It's not that everybody's a hardcore fan of something. Although lots of people are, but the way in which people are fans of something and the meaning that it carries for them. And like nine times out of 10, it has actually very little to do with the thing that they're a fan of. Right. It's it's about them. And what did we do before there was mega stars? Like, what was the fandom? How did this need get met before that? Well, I, that's a great, that's a great topic. And I, I think what comes, what first comes to mind is like, I think you said it really well when you said it's about something else.
1
00:10:55
And I think it's about feeling a part of something. So like I'm thinking of the beehive or whatever they call the lambs that Miranda, Carrie calls her little lambs, there's like a sense of belonging to something like, and maybe gladiator culture had gladiators had huge fans back in the day. Wait, are you saying maybe they did or they did. They did, but I'm saying, yeah. So I'm, I'm thinking that it is, I think he is the, the innate universal desire to belong to a group that is, that can do things that are bigger than the one person or that are to not feel alone, but also to rally around an idea or a, I don't know.
1
00:11:45
It's a great question. It's a great question. Yeah. I think you're right. I think it has to do with wanting to feel part of it's it's a community, it's a tribe. And what I think are funny are stories of when, like, people you'll hear famous, people talk about encounters that they have with fat with fans. And I don't know if anybody's said it exactly this way, but in all the stories, I've heard that there is somewhat of a thread, which is like, I get the impression that, and I've never fanned out on somebody I've never like asked somebody for their autograph or, I mean, I've certainly been standing next to Kirstie alley in the grocery store of who I'm not really a big fan, but like being like, oh, wow, there she is.
1
00:12:30
It does, it does do something to you when you're in front of a famous person. It does do something. Yeah. We recently saw Jay Leno and I'm walking down the street and in where the hell were we Burbank and, and, and I don't care. I mean, I like Jayla. I know I have no opinion about Jay Leno as a comedian. Like I know he was he's famous and he has a lot of cars. Okay. And I F we all freaked out. It was miles myself and two other and another couple. And, and his mother, the mother of the Jay Leno was walking down the street. And we all simultaneously went as if we knew Jay Leno, Leno was lovely and said, hi guys.
1
00:13:16
And it was the weirdest thing. I don't care about Jay Leno as a, as a celebrity, but I got freaked out. Oh my gosh. And maybe it's because I feel like I've had a ton of celebrities living in New York. I saw Faye. I saw bill hater. I saw Samantha B, how many people? Maybe it's because I've never, actually, it's never been somebody that I'm the only person I can think of is, you know, like Meryl Streep. Like if I saw Meryl Streep, I think I might do that fan thing.
1
00:13:57
But regardless of whether or not, I'm a huge fan. It is something about like, I was sitting in an airport once with 50 cent and oh, like, he smelled so good. I felt like he was vibrating something special. It's so true. There is a it's its own thing. And, and I don't know if the fans create that thing or these people innately have that thing, and then it's cultivated more it's so chicken or egg, but I have the same thing I'm trying to think of like, yeah. I mean, I I've had that, you know, and working for Nick cage, I ran, I had celebrities running all the time and, and, and Lisa Marie, she was horrible to me.
1
00:14:47
She was horrible. So Nick married, Lisa Marie Presley for four months or something, but they were dating and she came to the office and she was the rudest. She, we weren't supposed to look her in the eye or something. I can't remember the rules, but I worked at the front desk. I was basically the secretary, you know, so I worked at the front desk and she, her, she had a potty mouth on her, but like, I don't give a shit about that, but it was like a directed and mean potty mouth, which I don't appreciate. So I, I think she said, where's the motherfucking bathroom in this or something. Well, that's what you told me. Where's the motherfucking bathroom in this place. And I was like, okay, okay, what is happening?
1
00:15:27
Unnecessary. I also just go to the bathroom. What do you care? I, I was so weird. It was unnecessarily rude. I couldn't understand why, but then I had, my favorite celebrity encounter was with Benjamin Bratt, who was the most, he was stunning. And he came in for, for a meeting and he was at the time dating Julia Roberts. And it was, it was around the time. I dunno, she had did an Oscar. She was at the Oscars and had hair under an armpits and everyone lost their mind. I don't know. Anyway, I was around that time. I don't know why I'm remembering that, but he was the nicest, most Hansen, most genuine.
1
00:16:09
I wanted to date him immediately. I was like, okay. I, how can I, this is this, I have the cute. And, and, and so our offices on sunset Boulevard overlook the Hills were on the ninth floor and, and there were houses and we went and we were waiting and waiting. And Nick was doing something with, I don't know what was on the phone or something. So we were waiting and I, we got to talking and then we got to going into the conference room, which was all glass. And it overlooked the Hills. And he said, which house do you want? And I said, oh, I want that one. And he said, I want that one. And then we can, we can attach a telephone wire, like a can on a wire. I was like, absolutely.
1
00:16:50
It was the most. We really, he said, you know, you really, that shirt, I had like a peasant blouse on. And he was like, it looks like my ex-girlfriend. She used to wear things like that. And his ex-girlfriend I knew was like Jennifer Esposito, who I really liked. And I was like, oh my, he was so kind. And so, and we talked about he's Peruvian. And I talked about being Colombian. And so, and his mom was a political activist. So anyway, I had some lovely, but he had that thing where I was just like, I want to be near him. I want to put a spell on you. They put a spell on you. I felt the first time I ever saw a real life celebrity was when I was a little kid.
1
00:17:30
We did one of those. Do they still have where you get a map and you drive and look at the stars. This is in LA. Okay. Well, we did that and we drove Lucille ball and Jimmy Stewart lived on the same street. And when we drove by, in retrospect, I think that they know what time the bus comes. And that's when they come outside because Jimmy Stewart was mowing his own grass. I mean like the most adorable thing and gave away, I mean, honestly, like, so in character and Lucille ball was going out to check her mail and, and gave a wave. And I remember seeing them and feeling really sort of starstruck. So, but the other thing that's sort of interesting about the whole fandom thing is this funny little dance between the adored and the adoring, where different times, they both don't want to own up to the fact that one loves to be adored and one loves to do the adoring, but they also, there's an exchange there.
1
00:18:32
Even people who acts, who really complain about fans, even that even Sean Penn, who famously, you know, was shooting guns at the helicopter that was taking pictures of his wedding to Madonna. Like he got something out of that he want, he wanted that in a way that was almost more showing how much he needed it than somebody who doesn't pay the paparazzi any mind. Right? Yeah. It has to be, they have the celebrities, especially ones who act out like that against the proper Etsy.
1
00:19:11
Granted it's probably so infuriating and maddening to have them, but also they ha they, the celebrity themselves must have an unmet need that is getting fulfilled through this, these inner, these crazy ass interactions with the press and their fans. Like they just must, or else they would, like you say, ignore it and be like, oh, whatever, let's go about our business. And we've had, you know, a couple of encounters with people who have some degree of fame who, what they're doing, the dance that they're doing with us is they want to be wanted. And then we go, okay, we want you, and then they don't respond.
1
00:19:53
You know? And it's like the thing, the thing that they're chasing is the being wanted. They want to be in the position of saying, no, I feel like there's a right. There's a thing they're like, I, I just want to be in the position where I can feel you wanting me so that I can. Yeah. And I think it's like, it's like I'm dating or anything else. The same thing. It's like, I guess it comes down to, we all really, really want to be wanted. And it reminds me of, of Bhutan the country where they don't, they ever, they have a rule where no one can be more famous than anybody else. I'm probably totally screwing that up.
1
00:20:34
There is, there is some kind of law, or I don't know, there's a cultural norm where they don't, they don't recognize fame. They don't, they don't, that's not a thing there. And it's interesting. I wonder how that culture is, but, but I hear, we love that. So I think you're right. It's a dance. And also people can't have celebrity without fans. Yeah. You can't have be a celebrity without the other people. You're not in a vacuum. And people are highly aware of that. Whether they, it manifests, it manifests in all kinds of ways, but like, you don't have the Kardashians without the people watching the Kardashians you don't have, you know, and also regarding the, the upset that people feel.
1
00:21:24
And I, I feel, I feel compassion for the people who, you know, the Brittany Spears of the world, who've just been so really targeted and stocked. And I have compassion for it, but this, and I don't like this phrase, oh, well, you signed up for it. Cause that makes it sound like you signed up to have stalkers or abused. Right. It's not quite that, but I'll say it to you like this bill Murray and other, I mean, actually he is maybe probably one of the, if I saw him, I think I would probably get really excited, but famously he doesn't have this problem.
1
00:22:06
Do you know what I mean? Like he doesn't, he encounters fans he's always has time for them. He'd never seems put out by it. It's also not a mob and he's also not being. So I feel like he creates a environment for himself and give, admits the vibe of like, yeah. You know, me, and I'm cool with that. And sometimes I feel like talking to you and sometimes they don't, but it's not a big deal. I feel like the people who get all exercised about it are professed to get all exercised about it. Aren't acknowledging the thing that they, they're just not acknowledging the thing that they need out of the situation. And that kind of bothers me.
1
00:22:47
Yeah. I mean, I think that's what it is. It's the transparency of like saying, yeah, this is a business. This is part of this business of being in the public eye is a, is a back and forth with, with fans who, who support me and sometimes are a little bonkers and sometimes mean, and, and yeah, like, lets it be transparent about the whole thing. What about when you're on set and there's somebody and there's this feeling where you can tell, they want you to make something out of them. You know? And when I first started going on sets with my son, I mean, not, not for myself, I just adopted the approach of like, don't look at anybody, don't talk to anybody, just kind of, but I find that people don't necessarily like that either like the times where I've truly ignored the celebrity in the room, they come, they, they, and they engage and encounter with me.
1
00:23:43
It's certainly, it's really, it's so true. We were vacationing and we happened to go to this fancy, fancy place that I adore called a Sensia in Mexico. And it's, it's amazing. And there was a fashion designer there named Jason. Woo. Yeah. Jason woo. And he kept staring at me. I, you know, I was very dressed up. I had a huge tattoo on my back and I could tell, he wanted me to talk to, I, I just, I got this vibe. I'm like, why does this guy? So I finally, and he had designed recently a plus size line for, for Eloquii, I think, which is a brand. And I had bought a piece. And so I went, I finally was like, you know what, I'm going to do it.
1
00:24:26
I'm going to, I fell into the thing. And I went over and he was lovely, but I just said, Hey, I love your stuff. And he's like, oh, I love your tattoos. So we got into a whole thing, but you could tell he, and I think because you and I are, we're our former therapists. And we're really into like in tune with people's. I did what he wanted me to do. And it was a lovely exchange. Yeah. Sometimes it's just a lovely exchange
0
00:24:58
Today on the podcast. We're talking with Sean Gunn, Sean Gunn went to the theater school at DePaul university with us and then graduated and went on to do amazing things and is still doing amazing things to this day. He is an actor and a writer and a producer, you know him from the Gilmore Girls and more recently from the Marvel movies. And he's a present authentic, hilarious human. So please enjoy our conversation with Sean
1
00:25:32
Up here in the Northeast. I also got to say, Sean, you look so good. How do you look amazing this glow?
2
00:25:42
I th I think first personal, the lighting is great. I'm in the garage where I am right now. And the lighting is great. So that helps. And, and I'm tan. I've been out in the sun like almost every day.
1
00:25:56
No, you have a great glow. Yeah. So everybody's Sean already apologize for the audio quality in his air, bud air, air pods. And I told him, it's fine because he is so amazing that anything he says will, will reverberate, no matter what, congratulations, Sean Gunn, you survived theater school. I made it us with us. And I, I was just revisiting the, the website. I, of course everybody and their mother who has been sisterly feelings who's been on this podcast has, has talked about like the phenomenon that was sisterly feelings. But you were also in which I had totally forgotten about hasn't come up yet on the podcast, the usual version loom by John Jenkins directed.
1
00:26:40
Did
3
00:26:41
You forget about it until just the second was I was a crew on that show.
1
00:26:45
Oh, you're on the website as cast.
3
00:26:49
Yes,
2
00:26:52
No, that was, we did, they did that in our first year. They did that in, oh, you know what? Right. I was even, you know how sometimes they would do that with the, like the crew members. Like I was up like a waiter. I came out in like how to cut a towel over my arm at one point and like serve somebody a drink. Do you remember the show itself? Yeah, I remember it was funny because I, I bumped into one of the leads in a dinner, like last, like a year and a half ago or pre COVID pre COVID a year ago.
2
00:27:39
And, and I didn't know who he was, like, I forget the actor's name, but he was one of the elite actors in that show. And I was like, holy Christmas. I was, I, that was my first crew was Bush squat gentlemen. And I remember doing, I didn't remember until just now that I walked on and was in the show. Oh yeah,
1
00:27:59
They do. They put everybody who, you know, and they're actually, you're not the first person that we've surprised with reminding us that they were in the show. I'm not in that show. And then they're like, yes, I was, I was guard number seven that like carried so-and-so off stage. Yeah.
2
00:28:13
Trying to remember. So I've been listening to your, to this podcast by the way, like a maniac. So I've, I've listened to a whole bunch of episodes. It's a little harrowing, sometimes cathartic. It's a little like having therapy at times, but, but it's, it's really cool, but I've been trying to remember, and I can only remember five of the six shows that I did, but so which ones
1
00:28:39
Do you remember besides a gentleman and
2
00:28:42
Well, yeah, well, I remember okay. In my third year I did print some, the popper on the mid stage with, with, with Eric w w no, he was a year ahead of us and he was Eric Conlan. And he was, and, you know, he's a full six inches shorter than I am. So in order to make us look the same, we had to either slouch during the whole performance, which was pretty funny. But that one was really, that was really fun because it was a show when we all got punchy after a while.
2
00:29:27
And we started just doing things to amuse ourselves a few weeks into the run. But I remember Jen Alison and Lorenzo Medrano, and they were all on that show and Joe Harrison. But so I did that. I did dangerous liaisons or directed by Nick bowling. And then I did something else in my third year that I don't remember that I'm sure was a workshop and was not, but that's, that's what I don't remember. And then my, my fourth year I did freedom of the city was Shauna Flanagan. Right. A really small part. And I was super bitter about it because I had a really small like, ensemble role.
2
00:30:11
Like that was when you got ensemble, your, that was the kiss of death is you remember? And then I did sister,
1
00:30:18
It's just many times by that death,
3
00:30:22
But
2
00:30:22
Then it was great feelings, which was awesome. And then up cast me and raised in captivity, which was the last show.
1
00:30:35
Yeah. We talk about it, but I always have the wrong information about it. I, I, you are, you are the person. I definitely remember because that bit about how you're teaching the baby and he's almost walking, I would literally peed my pants. I, I, it was so embarrassing to leave that room because I, I, and I don't know if you heard the episode where I said, I kept looking around everybody else who was laughing and being like, you're not, you don't get it. It's much funnier than you. It's so funny. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. It's so funny. And the other thing, the thing that I remember about you is that the things you said in the, in the in-between times, or in auditions or in like, I, the type of way, do you remember tap away, tap away.
1
00:31:20
Do you remember the Tupperware? Okay. No. This is when you had to audition for sisterly feelings, that the, the thing was make the director laugh. You had like 90 seconds to make him laugh. And we all did a terrible job and we didn't get any laughs. And your thing, I don't, I'm not sure if you've got any laughs or not, but you did get cast. So then it was in the middle of the stage has somebody's stage, right. Throwing Tupperware at you. And you said, tap away, tap away. It was the funniest. But the thing is like, I don't know how I heard about it because we weren't aiming for me. I remember it just, I didn't get to see it, but I remember what you told us what you were okay to do that to me was the funniest bit.
1
00:32:07
And I think the reason it's so funny is because it just is sort of like, it, it, you made it make sense. I don't know why, but I just think whenever I have a Tupperware, I say, tap away, it's up away. And I crack myself up. The other thing I remember about you that was really stunning to me was that you and your friends did the dumbwaiter right. As a side thing.
2
00:32:32
Yeah. We just did it on her own what we want to do a ceiling tile. And there was
1
00:32:41
A lever pulley system. And I remember thinking, I so remember thinking these people are going to do once they graduate, something is going to happen with these folks that is not going to happen with the rest of, because it was so I couldn't believe people were taking the time outside of the school to do this. And it was a great show. Do you remember that show? Sure. Yeah,
2
00:33:03
I directed it. So, yeah. And I kind of, oddly enough, I had sort of like started to drift into wanting to be a director more than an actor by my, by the time I was end of it. But I looked back at that as a deviation. And it was it's partly because the school kind of mess with your mind so much that I was like, oh, maybe I should be doing this other thing. And then I took Jim hostel hops, directing class. I hit, I liked just went to him and asked them if I could take his MFA directing class and cause search Harper and I were, were good, are good friends.
2
00:33:43
And she, and she was taking it as a, as an acting student that I was like, oh, you can do that. And I just went to Jim and asked him if he would, if he would take me in it, you know, I didn't get a grader. I was, you know, essentially auditing it, but, but took that class and I loved it. And I was really, really into that. And I was into directing. I started to really enjoy directing, but I do think that a part of that is what you guys have talked about. A lot of, part of that was like really lacking a lot of positive reinforcement about my acting and not feeling good about what was going on with my acting career, which I look back now. And I was like, I'm just like, what in the hell was that school doing?
2
00:34:27
And what
1
00:34:28
Are your big takeaways about what they were doing besides lack of positive reinforcement? I mean, were you getting messages that you're now revisiting and saying you don't agree? Yeah.
2
00:34:37
I mean, it's not just lack of positive reinforcement because the school's purpose it's function. I don't think it's the coddle, the people who are, who are in the classes, that's not the important thing, but what would I do really take a lot of issue with was this idea that, that we were all supposed to be setting ourselves up for this life. As, as I remember, Jim also helped put a life on the fringe. Life is like outsiders who were working our way in. And they were like setting us up to not, not make a living in this profession. That was that w w w you know, we're in a school that's supposed to be teaching us how to be professionals in, in this business.
2
00:35:21
And then by the time we graduate, they're kind of like, just so you know, you're probably not going to be a professional in this business.
3
00:35:29
They'll like, you know, or like
2
00:35:31
Just how much disdain they had for, for film and television acting where, like, it was like an add on at the end of four years. It's like, oh, and here's one quarter of acting on camera, even though that's where all of the jobs are in the industry that we're about to enter and, and how they would, you know, always, it was like, oh, you know, the theater is so great. And it's like, you're slumming it if you're doing TV jobs, but then you go into the offices of the, of the teachers and who do they have on their walls? You know, they have all of the film and television. So it's like, this is great. This is what, like, we kiss the asses of all of these people.
2
00:36:12
However, you're not probably going to be any one of them.
1
00:36:17
I think that's absolutely right. It's, crazy-making, that's a crazy-making way to teach something, because it's saying, it's saying, don't do this, but do this.
2
00:36:28
And they put all the, I mean, I could, I could just refer a while, but it's like, they, you know, they, they put all of this, all this import into the, the, what do you call it? The end of the year? The, the, the showcase, like, it's like, they set it up. So it's like, oh, by the way. Okay. So you've been working day in and day out for hours and hours and hours and hours a week for four years. But now these, these hundred and 20 seconds are going to determine whether or not you have a viable way of making it in this career, which was so messed up. It's like, I wish I could go back and I wish I could go back and speak to myself and my classmates before we did those showcases and give us some, some pieces of advice.
2
00:37:25
But you
1
00:37:25
Got, did you, you got an agent from that, didn't you? I
2
00:37:28
Did. I got an agent in, I got some agents agents in Chicago from that. And, and then in, you know, I had some, I had some pretty cool meetings in LA, but nothing came of it. I mean, it wasn't, you know, even though I had meetings and other people didn't, it wasn't any better for me than it didn't to him any more for me than the people who didn't have meetings, you know, like went on an audition. I met, I met the head of comedy casting, I think for CBS. And she was like, oh, are you moving to LA? And I very foolishly because nobody had prepared me.
2
00:38:11
I was like, well, if I have reason to move to LA, I'll move to LA. And so she was going to offer me a job. If I had known it would have been like, oh, you're moving to LA, let me, let me set you up with a couple of agents that I'm friends with. And I could have started right away. But instead I'm like, oh no, I'm going to start a theater company with my friends,
1
00:38:31
Sean, everybody we talked to that had meetings LA, I didn't have any, but people that did the number one question, they didn't tell us how to answer. Is, are you moving to LA? It's just told us to lie and say that I'm moving to LA doesn't make any sense. It could have changed. I mean, look, happy things happen for a reason, but it could have changed the course of like 10 people we've talked to his labs.
2
00:38:57
I would actually adjust that to say they should have pulled us to tell the truth and say, yes, I'm moving to LA. I don't know. It's like, I, I love, I love living in Chicago and I love the Chicago theater scene is great. But you know, like I said earlier, if you want a job, there's a lot, lot, lot more jobs in LA than there are in Chicago. And that was what we are. We're all kind of there for. Right.
1
00:39:30
How did you, how did you end up at the theater school? I'm really curious. Cause I know you're from St. Louis right here and I'm making that up.
2
00:39:37
No, I'm from St. Louis, but I was like, I was one of those weird kids who I knew I wanted to be a professional actor when I was five. You know, when I was old enough to know what a PR profession was, I'm like, I'm going to be an actor. And, and so I was always kind of on the path. I did plays in high school and I did some did my research of where the, the best sort of acting conservatories were. And I auditioned for Julliard and I auditioned for DePaul and I wanted to really get into one of those. And I got an DePaul. So that, that's where I went.
2
00:40:19
My backup schools were schools with really strong theater programs at the time, but I kind of knew what was in store for me. And I wanted to be, and I still feel in a lot of ways, like I was a very kind of angry and I, I was not the most pleasant person in college, like in those years of my life, which is funny. I, I have to, I have to make a joke about this, Jen, that I was listening to Lee Kirk's episode. And you said, the Lee, you go, you said, I remember you as being like the nice one out of your group of friends.
2
00:41:06
And I heard that. I was like, Hmm, I wonder then who she's implying that the main ones I always thought you guys were so cool. And like, so he always got credit for being that he was
3
00:41:22
A nice one, really the biggest
1
00:41:25
He would, if he was like the biggest asshole ever. And you were really the best you've ever been really wanting to be friends.
3
00:41:33
But I
2
00:41:34
Was also kind of, I was like so driven and I was very like, if I, if I'm, if I could go back, I know I would be a much nicer person, but I also cut myself a little slack because I was like, I was like very intense and very much like, I'm, I'm doing this. So every thing is everything we're doing is so incredibly important to me, at least at the time I thought, and I was in anybody that wasn't as serious about it, or wasn't as sure which of course they had every right to be, not as sure, but anyone who wasn't as sure I felt like I, like they were in the way or something or that they were taking time away from, from, from which is lame.
2
00:42:20
But, you know, whatever I was, you did
1
00:42:23
Seem to, you did seem like you seemed like a professional actor already. And I think that that's, there are some people that just are driven like that, that know what they're doing. And I think there is something to be said for that, because I do think it, it behooves you sometimes in a conservatory to have that attitude because you, you, it is a professional training program. The rest of us, I don't know what the hell we were doing there. I don't know. But, but the, the professional actors, they had a good attitude. They were like, we're professionals. This is what we do. And I was like, I drank Mickey's big mouth forties. That's what I do
2
00:42:59
So well, I drank plenty of Jamieson, but you know, I almost got cut though, even with that. And which now, yeah, yeah. I was on warning and then my second year, and it's funny, I did for our, for scenes, you know, you do those incredibly intense scenes at the end of your second year in front of the whole faculty and, and Jen and, and I did a scene from, from the Harold Pinter play. Yeah.
2
00:43:42
And, and, and it was, it went really, really well. Right. It was a really good scene. And I, I was on warning at the time, but for some reason I wasn't that nervous. I thought that they were like, warning me to just kinda like give me a little kick in the pants. And that I wasn't, I think, I just thought they're not really going to come in though, because I was, so I was such a, I felt like I was such a good student in terms of like, at least putting in giving all my effort all the time. And then a couple of years later I was having, I had a beer with Rick Murphy after some show that we, that we saw and, and it came up and he'd mentioned that he's like, yeah, I remember you did that, that scene with, with Jen.
2
00:44:29
And it was, it was so, and it was so good. It was like the first work that you had done that made the faculty really feel like, oh, this guy's really got something. And I said to them, I was like, they were, I said, oh yeah, I know. I w I was on warning. He said, I know. And I said, but they weren't really going to cut me. Were they? And his Rick Murphy's eyes got really wide and he went, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. You were going to be cut if you didn't perform well on that, in that scene. And it's weird how we think back on that now, you know, cause that's whatever, I mean, that would have been, gosh, you know, 20, almost 30 years ago, I guess.
2
00:45:13
And just of like how, how would that have changed my life? Like what if I wasn't on that day? Or what if I went up in my lines and that, and that the thing. And would it have, how would it have changed things? It does not give me a good feeling to think about that. I dunno.
1
00:45:30
I think you would have just moved to LA and been fine like you are, but I mean, I understand why you have that. I
2
00:45:37
Don't know. I might've quit. I was a pretty fried, a pretty fragile psyche at the time. I don't know. But I would like to think that I would have just moved to LA. Yeah.
1
00:45:46
Well, I mean, so we're talking about you, you took it very seriously from the beginning. I felt like you were an adult from, from the very beginning that, that, that, that's how it came across to me was like, and maybe that was just your defenses and Lord,
2
00:46:01
Like an adult. I had an older sibling, I'm the youngest. So I learned that I'm pretend
1
00:46:08
I see it. That makes sense. But your anger when you were talking about being angry, I mean, how, I mean, we weren't close or anything, but how I interpreted your anger was a F like what you already said, a frustration about people who didn't treat it. Like it was, you know, the most important thing that they were doing at the time, people who were treating it like college, instead of like, yeah. I didn't even know about DePaul and Julliard. Like, did you have teachers at your high school that were really like helpful? Or did you just learn all that stuff?
2
00:46:42
I learned it on my own. I went and got, you know, like again, I had older siblings, so they had like, they, they had college books about how to study for different types of programs and things like that. And, and, and I would, you know, I did research and looked up lists of, of what were the best acting training programs in the country. And then I did research, you know, and, and tried to find them.
1
00:47:12
You mentioned starting a theater company with your friends St. Ed. So you left when, so you directed the dumbwaiter that, that was sort of the beta test for that theater company.
2
00:47:26
Audio, is this audio killing you guys or is it okay? Oh, that's good. That's good. It's through my thing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
1
00:47:35
No problem. So you start this theater company at the time. I mean, I'm assuming you felt like this was going to be your thing. You were going to be in charge of this theater company and it was going to go on and be one of these long lasting theater companies. But my impression is that what started to happen is that you all just started to get work as actors. And that's why it disbanded is that right?
2
00:47:56
Yeah, kind of it was, it was twofold. It was like, first of all, we started this theater company at the same time, opened the coffee shop theater, which is still there at the, at the triangle at Ashlyn Milwaukee division. And we thought it would be very smart to, to have a full running coffee shop that was open every morning, rather than just opening during shows. You're doing like sort of a soft opening, which actually would have been wise. We're like, no, we're just gonna run this coffee shop. And it turned out that we were pretty good.
2
00:48:38
We were okay at running a theater company and very, very bad at running a coffee shop. And that was the coffee shop. We had other people who were helping us out, but that was me and Lee Kirk and Anaconda makos, and Nick and Anne was still in school, but, and she still had a year left, but, but me and Lee and Nate were running a coffee shop and, and Val was always around. Valentine was always around him. And Cabrera was always around because there were parts in the fear company, but they weren't, they weren't owners in the cop shop. Anyway, after a year the coffee shop, we ran it into the ground and we had to light it up and shut it down, which already put a damper on everything that we were doing.
2
00:49:25
And then I, I started getting a lot of, I started doing a bunch of commercials. I did like, I, I did something like I did like 10 commercials in four months or something crazy, like out of like whole bunch. And then I did this independent movie that Judy and and Tate Smith were in. I heard Ted talk about it. And, and I did this movie and became friends with, with Jamie Kennedy, who was one of the actors from LA, who was in the movie. And I remember it was a pivotal moment in my life.
2
00:50:06
We were out one night, we'd gone out to like shoot pool and get some drinks or something after work one day, which was like, we felt like such big shots. You know, like, like we had per diem, you know, staying in this hotel and to Nosha Wisconsin. And, and one night we came back after, after work, we came back to the hotel and on the way up to our rooms, the receptionist stopped Jamie and had an envelope that had a script in it for them and was like, was like, oh, this is, you know, this came for you. And it was, he was like, oh, it's a script that I, that I'm supposed to read that I might, you know, but they're interested in me for that.
2
00:50:51
I'm going to audition for, or whatever. And I saw that and I'm like, I want that. That's what I want, that I want to come home. And I want to have a script waiting for me that I'm going to look at and that's, and that was pretty much it. And then I went back to, I went back after that movie was done and, and Lee and I, who had lived together for a long time. And, and I told him, we had, we're trying to figure out what we were going to do next with the theater company and blah, blah, blah. And I went back and I'm like, I'm moving to LA, you know? And, and I had a brother there at the time whose couch I could crash on for a few months.
2
00:51:32
And, and yeah, yeah, it was, it was the right decision.
1
00:51:40
All of your siblings in the industry,
2
00:51:43
Five of the six are, I have four brothers and they're all in the entertainment industry. And my sister is, is, is an employment attorney. She, she fights the man for on behalf of, for gender equality issues. She's tougher than all of us combined, but she lives in LA too. Actually, I've got a brother in Brooklyn and then all of my other brothers have since moved out to California. And then of course, like, I don't know. I feel like my career is punctuated by a few, you know, like some of my career has some really smart decisions or are times when I, I capitalized on the opportunities and some have just some elements of incredible luck and involve involvement.
1
00:52:33
Give us an example. Yeah. Tell us, tell us the luck and versus the, I mean, you're not the first person, like people who have have, are working constantly and that are talk about luck, but I'd like to know some examples of luck.
2
00:52:48
Here's one example of luck that people don't think of a lot is that, and I was thinking about this earlier, when we were talking about the showcase is that when I, when I graduated in, in 1996, I was the very, very castable type. Like I was the, I would play this dorky sort of like it, like guys like me were getting all these roles of, you know, either like the goofy convenience store clerk or, you know, goofball best friend or whatever. And I just had a look. I mean, I don't think I was, I don't think I was any more extraordinarily talented than, than so many other people, but I looked perfect for that time.
2
00:53:37
Like, and it was like right in that pocket, which is one of the things, by the way, I wish we had been told when we did showcases, is that like, like this is not, this is, this is not a referendum on it. Your castability for the rest of your career, this is going to show you who's castable right this second, you know, but your career is going to be long anyway. So that was something very lucky, but it's something much more lucky than that is that then like later in my career, my brother James is one of the most gifted writer directors and in the world and you know, he's my brother. So we work together. Like, you know, he'd take me along on certain, you know, I, I don't, I, I already had a good television career before, before going to do Marvel movies with him.
2
00:54:28
But I don't, I think that I'm, I'm doing a lot of these big movies, you know, part, it, it helps to have, have these people as part of your sphere who are, who can help bring you along.
1
00:54:40
I have a question about that in terms of what do you think makes a family like that? Because let me just tell you something, my family is not that way. So my sister got God, lover is not making Marvel movies and I'm not many movies. No, not, not any movies. So what, what, what, what is it about the gun family I'm serious? Like, I'm curious what the hell, what happens there?
2
00:55:06
W we've all been attempting to answer that question for, for decades. And I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's some combination of, you know, my, my mother was very much, she, she read all the modern baby rearing stuff in the, in the sixties. Like she, she, she read Dr. Spock early and she, she like was very much about, she knew that fostering the imagination for young children was super important. So that's like a little piece of it. My dad's from a big Irish Catholic family and was very outgoing.
2
00:55:48
They're all lawyers, but they have this element of, of, of showmanship or show person ship, I guess the word would be now. And, and, and them, and a very brick area's personality. I also think that in my, in another life, my dad could have, would have been a magnificent performer, you know, and, and his parents actually, even though his dad was like a judge and stuff, his parents met doing, doing like summer stock theater on the Chautauqua circuit. And, and so I, I don't know, but there's also something about us being there's six of us, but less than eight years separates the six of us.
2
00:56:36
So we're relatively tight in age. And we were like a unit growing up and we w we entertained ourselves and we were all incredibly into pop culture. And we like listen to music and watch movies and watch TV shows and like created characters and stories and like influences. So
1
00:56:57
It's like you, your own troop of, yeah. Like you would have been involved Ville if it was a hundred years ago, you would say middle circuit. I have to say for the record. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
2
00:57:10
It's interesting. You bring that up because that's another thing you say that you're involved bill something that, that I feel like I, I naturally had an affection for that. They did not teach us enough of at the theater school. Was that, that yes, I loved, I loved theater and I loved art. I wanted to be an artist, but I also love show business, you know? And like, and that is such an element of it. You can't make art unless somebody buys it, you know, otherwise it's a hobby, but if you want to do it as a profession, somebody needs to buy it. So there, there has to be an element of, of, of show business to what, what it is that you're doing.
2
00:57:55
It took me a while to sort of sort through that as a creative entity. I think I was very low on it when I left the theater school, but it came back to me after a little bit, once I started, like, you know, I'm working on, on camera more than any way. Good, good. Go ahead.
1
00:58:12
Oh, I was just going to say for the record I've as a parent of three children, your mother deserves a metal for reading any books whatsoever, but especially reading a bunch of pioneering child development books. That it's a, it's a word to the wise do read the books because there is, there is parenting is not necessarily innate. I mean, maybe for a lucky few, but what I'm thinking about is having that many siblings has to be a big part of your sense of humor. All of my memories about you from the theater school, all relate to hilarious things that you said or did. Are you the funny one in your sibling group? No,
2
00:58:51
No, nothing. Like I am in, we're all the funny ones in my and my family. I mean, I don't, I, I don't think, you know, I try, but w w w we all jockey to be the funny one in one way or another, maybe a couple, maybe two or three of us more than the others. A little bit, but like, we're, we're constantly, th th the thing about being a big family that really helps and really helped my acting a lot is timing. You, like, you learn that, like, you've got one narrow window to six people or eight people when my parents were there and you're all trying to like, crack each other up, particularly world teenagers and stuff.
2
00:59:38
And we're trying to crack each other up. You've got about a quarter of a second to get your joke in, to maximize. If you're going to get laugh, to be able to say it before somebody else says it, if you miss it, it's gone. And so you, you learn timing that way. And that helped me immensely when I started doing, doing work on camera and like auditioning for sitcoms and, and, and a lot of commercial work and stuff like that, where, where comic timing was, was incredibly important. And it's one of it's, it's a, it's a massive strengths of mine. And yet another strength that the theater school more or less didn't give a shit about.
2
01:00:19
I mean, they didn't, nobody was, nobody was like patting you on the back saying you've got great comic timing. You know, like if anything, it was, it was the opposite. It was like, stop trying to go from the last stop trying to get. Yeah, God forbid, we get laughs. Right. What, how did that work out in improv though? Did you, did you slay? No, I'm not. I I'm, I I'm. I was able to kind of tread water and improv and, but I, I don't, even to this day, my improv skills pretty much extended to being available for my other actors that I'm doing a scene with so that when things go off script, I can stay with them, but I don't like, I like scripts.
2
01:01:06
I like lines. And like, and that that's an old kind of show business thing too. It's like, it's like, I, I like sticking more or less sticking to what to what's on the page. I was not because, because when we did improv, as you guys know in school was not, it had nothing to do with comedy. So it's all like, you know, the, the, the Spolin games and things like that, where it's all. And that was, that stuff was hard for me to wrap my brain around because I'm, that's another thing that's still now. It's like, I'm, I'm pretty cerebral in terms of how I analyze analyze work.
2
01:01:49
And so I like to be able to take a minute with it and think about it. And that's, you know, when you're playing Spolin games, the whole purpose is to take you out of that, which, which was good for me to learn, but was never my strength.
1
01:02:10
Well, I was just going to say, you know, something about the theater school that just it's, it's coming forward for me is that like date and, and look, we've been doing this podcast long time, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around. There are these huge gaps, right? And it's sort of like, Spolan stop thinking. Don't be funny. And then when we graduate, it's the exact opposite of how to make money. So there is this, I'm just, it's just shocking to me. It's like, it's like, there's a whole year missing of how to connect the showbiz part because people who liked showbiz did really well after they, not everybody, but after they graduated. So like you liked showbiz inherent in the theater, conservatory was a hatred of showbiz.
1
01:02:55
And yet those are the people that get paid their bills. It's. So it's just makes me think about conservatories and how to, how we can change them. Because like, if we came back and you had, you know, Sean Gunn teaching a class on why showbiz is important, it might work like it just, there was a gap, there was a huge gap. And most of us fell into the gap into the moat. We all fell into the mode, but there are people who did not fall into the mode or stay in the mode. And I think those people bridge the gap when they graduated, they bridged the gap. You were able to bridge the gap. Judy was able to bridge the gap to small shin bridge the gap. It's interesting. It's really interesting.
2
01:03:36
I think that there's, that, that the, the, the people who, who are really aware of what their strengths are, have such a leg up and the school could have done a heck of a lot more to help people find that stuff out on their own. And to like, to really kind of help people understand what their own w what their strengths are. And, and also just in general, this whole notion that like, that, that Hollywood, like only cares about people who are like pretty or beautiful. And that, that's the only way if you're like, whatever, it's, it's just nonsense.
2
01:04:18
And, and it's something that, that really should be fought against. It's like, like it's just not true. There's all kinds of different roles for all kinds of different people. It's like, I don't know. Yeah.
1
01:04:31
Yeah. And I'm wondering if growing up in the family that you did, you were, you were able to, and, and, and, or maybe had to identify, oh, these are my strengths. Like, my brother might be this and my, or this brother might be bad, but I, I can do this. Like, I don't know, like maybe it helped you somehow to individually, you know, become an individual amongst, amongst a crowd, you know, because you had to, right. I mean, like, I dunno, I'm just, I just, I'm always trying. I'm always trying to think, okay. Like, what is the secret sauce that makes people make it? And I think it's, and what I'm learning from talking to people like you is that it's a secret sauce is a combo platter of things.
1
01:05:13
It's not just one thing. Right. It's not just one thing that makes a yeah.
2
01:05:20
And I mean, first of all, I don't know. I mean, have I made it, I don't know. I, I still, no, I, I, that's not fair. I'm I'm I make my living doing it. And I think that that's a benchmark. That was always important to me. I remember when I was a kid and I told my parents, I wanted to be an actor. And they were like, well, you know, we'll support you if you want to do it. But you know, only 10% of actors make their, like, make their living doing it. I think the number is probably much lower than that actually. But that's what they told me. They were like doing it. I'm like, okay, well then that'll be my goal to be in that 10% of people who, who make their living.
2
01:06:05
And so I try to remind myself that now, whenever I get really down on like roles I don't get or things, things that aren't happening in my career that I want to be happening. I'm always like, well, look, I'm doing it. I'm paying, I'm making my living doing this thing. And I haven't been for a long time. So,
1
01:06:22
Well, let me say this. I w I wasn't gonna say this to you, but I I'm, but I will, I, before this interview, I was thinking about you. And I was thinking, I bet, okay. I am, my kids love all the Marvel stuff. I, I don't, I've never seen any of it. And it's not a slam on Marvel. It's just it's. So, when I told my kids, for example, that I knew you, they still don't believe me. So when this podcast comes out, I'll finally have proof. But what occurs to me is, okay, Sean Gunn, intellectual, very rarefied sense of humor, like smart as all get out.
1
01:07:07
Is it a prison to be doing one type of thing? Or maybe it's not, maybe it's maybe doing that gives you the opportunity to do the other things that you like when you have free time, but does it ever feel limiting the marvels? Oh
2
01:07:23
Gosh, no. I mean, not, not at all for, for, for a few reasons. Not the least of which is that like, like, I, I don't I'm, first of all, it's like, you know, it's not, not your thing. Like, nothing's no thing is for everyone. So like, there's nothing it's like, even though Marvel has a large net, it's like, if you're like, oh, that's not my thing. I'm not into it. There's no part of me. That's like, Ooh, how dare you? You know? No, it's like, okay, cool. It's not your thing that said, I think that, I think by and large, the quality of the work that we create, I can say we, but that they create the marble is very good.
2
01:08:10
I mean, I think that the movies in general, particularly compared against against what their competition is. So when you look in the realm of like, there's going to be a void where a large tent pole action films, that appeal to a wide audience, and those movies are getting made one way or the other. It's not like we're either going to do that, or we're going to do, like, those films are getting made. Right? So once you accept the fact that those films are getting made, I think the quality of the Marvel films is quite good. Like they're not all, they're not all great, but they're awesome.
1
01:08:51
Don't get me wrong. That's not what I meant. I w what I meant to say is you're, it's so all consuming, you've done like a hundred of these movies. It doesn't take up every single bit of your time.
2
01:09:02
No, I know. I do. I do other stuff, I guess. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am able to do other stuff too, also, but even if I weren't, it wouldn't be a bad, it wouldn't be a bad way to live, you know? It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, first of all, it's pretty cool to do something that so many people love and make so many people happy. Like that's, that's gratifying. Also. I still get, I mean, I get recognized for Gilmore girls, way more than Marvel movies. Yeah. About, about Gilmore girls.
2
01:09:44
And
3
01:10:18
Okay. I'm going to,
1
01:10:25
Oh, I'm sorry. I hope that wasn't insulting. I didn't mean it to be insulting.
2
01:10:31
No, no, not at all. Oh, not at all. I mean, really not at all. I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't, I'm not invested in like every person ever, you know, seeing whatever w whatever work it is. Like, I don't that's, I I'm just saying that, that, like, it's, it's mostly pretty cool, you know, and I've been able to do some, like recently I've done some cool smaller indie movies, and I'm also like, you know, I was telling you guys before we got on, I'm trying, I'm trying to, my wife and I are trying to get this movie made. And, and, and you were, I mean, something I've, I've known for a long time that you've learned that if you have actors that have a certain profile, you can raise money.
2
01:11:20
People won't give you money if you have an actor that's. And so, like, I don't, I don't want to be famous because I want to get a nice table on restaurants, or because, because it's fun for me to get, to get recognized when I'm in home Depot, but I do want to be famous. So that investors will say, yes, we'll give you money to make the movie that you want to make, because you're in it. You know, like that would be awesome for my, for, for what I wanted to do. I mean, I, I feel like there's still so much, so much like awesome work.
2
01:12:02
I
1
01:12:02
Don't know. Yeah. You're into the power. I mean, I, it seems, I I've always said I don't care. I wouldn't, I don't think I'd ever want to be famous, but I'd love to be powerful, which is to say, you know, to have influence, to be able to, to make a, you know, to be able to be a part of the conversation about what's influencing the culture is a huge gift. And I mean, it's a responsibility too, but it's a huge, huge gift. And, and I guess I'm pretty glad that it's, you know, F for, for all the people maybe who have that position, who aren't doing something that great with it, I'm grateful for people like you, who are, you know, who are, who are finding, you know, the smart
2
01:12:41
And I want to, you know, I want to make cool little movies and stuff too. Like, I want to, you know, the, in the, in the film that, you know, you, when you do theater and you want to do that, like little black box show that everybody loves and has this crazy long run, you know, there's, there's a parallel to that in films, you make a movie for a million dollars or $2 million or whatever, and people love it. And it's, it's really cool. And it does a bunch of awesome festivals and makes it make, makes it it's money back. So you can make another movie, you know, and like, that's, I chased that as much as, as much as anything else, you know, but you also, you got to work.
2
01:13:28
And the thing about the, about doing the bigger movies, isn't that, it's, it's great to have that, to know that you're employed is incredibly, you know, I, that was, I was talking about being lucky earlier. Like I was lucky that I got Gilmore girls. I was, I, I was, you know, they liked me and kept having me back. So part of that was, was good stuff that I did was part of that was skill. But also I understood that I understood the tone really well. I understood what type of television show that was. And so the creator to the show, when she saw me, I think she knew that I got and wanted me to keep coming back.
2
01:14:13
And then I ended up on that, on that show for seven years. And I didn't, and I didn't appreciate it as much as I should have, you know, like I was into it, but I was also like, oh, I'm really I'm killing it right now. I got cast. And, you know, I was like, like, I, I just thought, like, if I laughed, I thought I'd just go do another TV show. Like, it would be that easy, you know, and it wasn't. And then I left and I was like, oh, I, I miss that. I miss having a, having a, a regular job and having a knowing, knowing where my next employment is coming from.
1
01:14:55
So you said that there were, so, I mean, we've all identified so many things that we didn't get from the theater school, but what do you bring into a job? You know, you're, if you're going on set tomorrow, what's one thing, you know, that you are bringing from your education at
3
01:15:10
DePaul? Well,
2
01:15:16
That's an, that's an interesting question just because I have so many hours on set now that it's hard to, it's hard to parse through what's, what's what I know that I know that first of all, just the reverence for the profession itself, you know, I look at acting as a vocation and a job, you know, but the, the whole idea that it is that what we're doing isn't stupid or frivolous like that, that was really important. And I know, I know that I was a much better actor when I grew up graduated from the theater school than I was when I went in.
2
01:15:58
I know that all of the pieces help helped make me better. John Jenkins technique class really stands out as something that it made me sort of, sort of helped me realize when, when I was in it, w like when you're in the pocket, like you can feel it. And that class helped me sort of isolate that. And all of just the nuts and bolts of things like breaking down a script and understanding, you know, the boring stuff, like, like knowing where beat changes are and knowing what to be changes and knowing that your intention shifts or changes, it changes like just real nuts and bolts stuff was certainly all incredibly important.
2
01:16:51
But I will say that having that, just getting reps being in front of the camera a lot of times helped me more than being in school dead, you know? And that th that, that the idea that the being that when we graduated, I don't know if anybody felt this way, but, but I think sometimes there's this idea that like, we're supposed to be these fully baked, you know, artists that were, that were like complete beings when we graduated. And just knowing that that's not it at all. Like, if, like you always have to be getting sad, or like, I would like, to me, it's, it's, it's, it's as important now, you know, the, the jobs that I'm doing now, it's like, it's super important to me that my work is better this year than it was last year.
2
01:17:44
You know? Like, if you want to keep getting better all the time, it's, it's not, you know, it's not, I love what
1
01:17:56
You said about reps in front of the, in front of the camera. Like, I think there is no substitute for me for practicing the real deal. And that was something that we didn't even touch on at school. Really. We have that little class, but like, I, there, I really feel like my education in, in the entertainment industry started the first job I booked. And it's still, and it's hard because you, you, if you don't get booked, you can't practice. So that's why people say classes and stuff like that. But I love what you're saying about like, the reps in front of the camera are so important and to do that, oh, I just, I it's.
1
01:18:36
So doing the thing is what makes the thing
2
01:18:40
Do, I mean, the school should be teaching more of that. I think, I don't know. I have a little bit of a bone to pick with them. Cause they never, they never contact me about anything. And I'm like, I have, like, I have the same chip on my shoulder. Yeah. I'm the same chip on my shoulder now, as I have, when I was there and I was like, I was like, I feel like I'm busting my ass and nobody cares. And now I'm like, now I'm like, Hey guys, I have a pretty good career. How come nobody's like calling me and ask me to do anything or whatever. I was really
1
01:19:03
Surprised about that. I can tell you why it is. It is because they don't and I'm just going to speak. Honestly, they don't have their shit together. They don't have their shit together. I teach there, I teach there
3
01:19:15
And I love them. I love
1
01:19:17
Them. And I teach, who knows. I mean, I teach, I teach, I teach acting. No, I teach acting. But I also, it was weird in a pandemic, but they don't have, I want to run that school. I'm like, wait a minute, let's get these people like Sean, got it. Let's get these people. Like these people know what they're doing. And they can also teach like different things. It's, it's a conservatory situation. It's a real, it's a real clusterfuck sometimes. So anyway, I have a bone to pick with them too, and they have a bone to pick with themselves and they don't know what they're doing. So yeah, by
2
01:19:50
The way, I've had long talks about whether the cut system is, is good or not. And because I was kind of on the fence about it, but, you know, I dunno some of them, well, what's your point of view? Well, no. I mean, I I'll tell you that, like, I don't know if you know Michael Rucker, but he actually went to the theater school in the eighties and I've worked with him now. I haven't done a bunch of movies together playing sidekick and the guardians movies. And he always said that when I told them that they quit doing the cuts system, he's like, oh, that's, that's it that's downhill from here on, out for that school.
2
01:20:35
He's like the cuts are the only thing that, that accurately represent what it's like out there in the cutthroat entertainment industry, acting industry is like the cuts are the only thing that give you some sense of what that is actually like, I don't know. I'm less sure. I, I don't feel sure one way or the other, because I think of my, my 20 year old self. And I think that I was almost caught, as I said for like, maybe if I blown that scene, I would've gotten cut and I'd be pretty pissed if I had, I don't know.
1
01:21:10
Yeah. Well, there's, there's a corollary to the damage that the cut system can do. Like people like Joseph Quora who take it as their personal mission after getting cut to, to spite the theater school and then wow. And end up having a great,
2
01:21:26
Oh, I think, yeah. It's definitely true that the people who get cuts and then are like, like really press on like it's it's of course a great example because he, he, but he's a guy who was probably cut because people thought he was, you know, because of who, because of, for whatever reason, the person that he was at 20 years old rubbed people the wrong way. And so they decided that they were going to like, yeah, something like that. I dunno. Just a heck of a good idea.
1
01:21:59
He was sort of defiant though. He's a very good actor. Yeah. Well, we're going to have to wrap up, but any little last anecdotes or stories you want to make sure to include, like anything you would say, anything you would say to someone who's like, Hey Sean Gunn, I'm going to go to DePaul. No, just get in front of the camera.
2
01:22:25
Yeah. Now they're never gonna invite me to do anything now that I said that, I mean, anything I would say to any, any person who was, who is about to embark on that journey of trying to do it is that like, is essentially that what other people think of you is always going to seem incredibly important in one way or another and you'll make it important, but it isn't, you know, it isn't, it's about the work that you're doing and getting better. And I do think that there's something, you know, I'm, I'm an old softie that I do still think there's something kind of beautiful and magical about not just pretending to be another person, but to try to share their lived experience.
2
01:23:17
That's what actors do. We're trying to like share with other humans. What the idea of being a human is, you know, when you cut it to its core and that that's not, that that's, that that's not stupid and it's not, and it's not the most important work in the world, but it's also not, it's not stupid. You know, it's real
1
01:23:44
Work. I love that because I feel like when I hear actors interviewed, even still, people are always still apologizing for, I know I'm not curing cancer. I know. And I think, I think it contributes to, because we don't have much in the way of arts education in this country, it contributes to a general feeling of like, yeah, of course everybody relies on culture and media every single day of their lives, but they have this way of compartmentalizing. It like it's frivolous. No, it's completely necessary. As we learn during the pandemic, when the first thing everybody started to do was binge television shows and watch movies. Yeah. I mean it, yeah, it's actually quite essential.
2
01:24:24
Yeah. It's essential and it's hard. It's like, it's like, it's not, it's not, it's not hard in the way that maybe, you know, the certain other jobs are hard, but it's like, like creating stories and presenting them and delivering them in a compelling way for people to get wrapped up in and enjoy or be moved by or whatever. It's not, it's not easy work, you know,
3
01:24:54
Anyway.
1
01:24:56
All right, Sean, where can people find you? I think you're on Instagram, right? I'm on Instagram.
2
01:25:00
I'm the judge gone on Instagram, Sean Gunn on Twitter. I do as much social media as I kind of need to, to keep my career relevant. Just like everything. It's sort of like a, you kinda just have to do it. How's that for plug for my own social media, I have a, I did this really cool indie movie called Agnes that just premiered at the Tribeca film festival. And I don't know when that'll be available, but it's coming out before long.
2
01:25:42
And I did I'm in the suicide squad, which is out August six, theaters everywhere. I did a show for Amazon called the terminal list that I did a really cool role on that. And I don't know when that's coming probably later this year, early next year. And then I saw thunder coming out spring. I'm going to shoot guardians three guardians of the galaxy. That's fantastic. That's fantastic.
1
01:26:19
Thank you so much for doing this. Really appreciate
2
01:26:22
It. Thanks for having me and thanks for doing this podcast. It's really cool to hear people's stories and you know, whatever. Maybe we'll circle back and do it again. If you guys do a second round,
0
01:26:35
That would be fantastic. Actually, I I'm a for many people, I feel like if you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five-star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Piluchi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
0
01:27:15
Thank you.
Intro: Boz is getting an adorable dog, affairs and the ESPRIT outlet.
Let Me Run This By You: KNOW YOUR WORTH
Interview: We talk to Dawn Vanessa Brown about Syracuse, theatre outcasts, making it in New York City, and finding yourself in St. John.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina
1
00:00:34
I feel like it's still at the breeders. I forgot to tell you that. So they send us, they send us videos every week. We pick her up on the third. Yes. And you'll see her when you come, but she's pretty cute. So I have a dog. Everybody is, she's pretty cute. The thing is like, I, you know, I do have guilt about going through breeder. I do have guilt, but that's just the truth. I, my rescue dog, Peewee, Horton, bit me in the face. And, and, and, but my nephew and bit the mailman and was sick and it was a horrible experience.
1
00:01:14
Like, like I spent and also, you know, whatever money's money, but I spent a thousand dollars training him and it wasn't that it was that he had a tumor in his pancreas that was killing him and he was pissed off. So there you go,
2
00:01:28
Dog had cancer. I didn't realize the thing that, that he had cancer. You sends you all the cancer.
1
00:01:36
My husband had cancer, my mom the whole bit, the whole bit. How are you? What's going on on the east coast? How are you doing?
2
00:01:49
So it's not like in your twenties, it's a wild ride, right? It's like a rollercoaster it's twists and turns and your stomach hurts and you feel like there's elaborated and you felt it. Okay. It's in middle age. It's like a, like, you're just riding one of those trolleys kind of slow. And there are like in San Francisco and there's still Hills. And sometimes it is very beautiful, but a lot of times you're just slowly crawling towards your own death. Oh my God. I don't feel, I don't feel like, well, in terms of my own death, it's just that having to deal with death in my family, you know, just of course, makes me think about death and all, its various iterations that, and we don't know for certain cause autopsy is not finalized, but it does seem like she had a burgeoning medical condition that she did, not that she got maybe diagnosed for, but then didn't fill her prescriptions.
2
00:02:50
You know? And honestly like to me, this is how, the way, one of the many ways in which codependency is a killer, like she took care of everybody else. And she, she, there was somebody in her life that had had a stroke and she was taking care of that person and driving him around to make sure he got all of his medications and she didn't do her own. Then she didn't do her own thing. And, and like, it's, it's that, it's the stress of taking care of other people and not taking care of yourself. And it's also this thing that happens too. You know, one of the hallmarks of a traumatized child is that they're like hyper independent, independent to the point that it's not healthy.
1
00:03:34
No, that it's, it's super, actually super harmful and super debilitating and isolating. Yes.
2
00:03:42
And for a time in your life, especially when you're young, it's such a prized tendency, your parents love it about you. And you know, people are always are marveling. Like it's two things like, oh, you're so mature and you're so independent. And those are things that we both my sister and I were told for me, like I've made a very intentional choice to not, to become less independent, but to ask for help, which is, you know, hard for me to do or to, oh, I should say it's, it's not that I don't know how to ask for help. It's this. I don't know how to ask for it directly. I know how to, like, I know how to inspire other people's help, but not in a way that like me owning up to the fact that I need help.
2
00:04:26
And then being like, oh, sure, I'd love to help you. It's like me pretending, like I don't need help. And, and then, you know, basically making it such that the other person has to help me, then I never have to say I need help. So, so I'm trying to take it as a lesson. I'm trying to take it as, you know, like, even if you're not going a hundred miles an hour on the freeway with a motorcycle and no helmet, even if you're not doing drugs, even if you're not whatever, like you can still die from your inability to change.
1
00:04:58
Oh, that's very, very, very deep. I hear that loud E that is I believe. I mean, I believe that is what killed my father. I mean, he killed himself, but interpret that. That's what the root thing was. He could not change. And I it's very easy to like, it's I get it. Like, you know what? It changed sucks in a lot of ways. And it's scary as shit to be told. Here's the thing. If you don't do this, you're probably going to die. But doing this means changing your whole life and your whole paradigm and your whole belief system wants to do that.
2
00:05:39
Who wants to do that? And also there's this thing, this trope of like, you've changed as it's always something negative instead of. Yeah. Well of course you should definitely always be change.
1
00:05:51
Yeah, go ahead. No, no. I was gonna say you ha we it's changed your die. I mean like that and if you want me to die, like that's, it's interesting. Cause I have that no one in my life, because it's a pandemic and I don't see many people are like, oh, you don't eat Jack in the box anymore. And thank God I have a partner that's like, not like that, but I could see where people would be like, oh, come on, just come, come out to, you know, drink or come out to eat with us and you can do it. And I'm like, no, my heart will stop. Absolutely.
2
00:06:24
Absolutely. And another very close member of my family recently, you know, went to the doctor and got, you know, like a very young person, got a terrible report about cholesterol and triglycerides and psych, you know, you could be skinny and have high cholesterol. You could be fat and have local. I mean, it's just so, so you, you have to, we'll take care of it. And the
1
00:06:52
Thing is it's really, gosh, it's really hard to right. It's hard to say too. I was thinking like, okay, like you go to the doctor and they tell you, or you get any news, whether it's a psychiatrist or anyone saying, listen, this is a serious problem. You have. Okay. And they, and they tell you that it's scary and shocking. And, and I'm a bummer, a huge bummer. And like also pissed off. Like, can you imagine she took care of everybody. Else's stuff her whole life. And now they're like, PS, you've done it all wrong. Now you have to take care of you.
1
00:07:33
Like I did everything I was supposed to do. And now you're telling me I have to do one more thing and it's take care of myself. You go fuck yourself. So I get, I, I, that's how I might be. And I also can relate to being my, I can see that my sister was more the independent one. I was just like under the radar. And like didn't say, but my sister was really proactively independent. So I could, and she has, you know, she will tell you, she has hard time asking for any kind of guidance or help in any way. Like not even, you know, like subtle things, probably directions and shit like that.
1
00:08:14
She won't even ask for. And it's like, oh, why do we do this to ourselves? Well, we do this to ourselves because like you said, it's rewarded as children. Right.
2
00:08:22
Rewarded as children. And then there is also something about a woman like, oh, she's so independent, you know, that's like, you know, a valued trait. And yeah. So, so then the other thing I'm just meditating about is that, you know, the, actually I'm writing a blog post about the stories we tell ourselves and how we craft the narrative of our life. And in my case, what you do when there's just a, like a lot of missing information about story. And you know, one of the essential questions I have is like, what was the story?
2
00:09:02
She told her, what was her story? What was her own understanding of her life? Because another thing that happens in death is that you just learn how people have completely different experiences of growing up in the same household and people have. And then when somebody dies, you learn all the different contexts in which that person lived in all the different ways that people knew them. Like this happened to me so often when my dad died, people will come up and tell me things about him that just didn't track with my experience. And for a long time, I was like, okay, well that means you didn't really know him. And it took me a long time to realize, no, no, no. They just knew him in the context that they knew him because it was very self-centered of me to think like, oh no, if you, if you're not representing the same version of him, I knew then you didn't know him really
1
00:09:51
Challenging. It's because it's like same thing with my mom. So, you know, it's, and, and, and I can say this she's gone and it's the truth, you know, she had an affair. Right. And so, oh, you didn't know that. Okay. So I did neither until, until my aunt told me that. And, and, you know, and, and I just thought, I want to meet the guy who she had the affair with to know a part of my mom. I never knew, like, maybe he knew a really happy, awesome fulfilled lady. I don't know. Like, I want that, it's very challenging because it would totally butt up against my version of my mother, but I'm also craving that, but there's no way to, so yeah, it's, it's, we know one version of our loved one or our friend or whoever, and there's like a million versions of them.
1
00:10:46
Yeah.
2
00:10:47
A hundred percent. So w D was this a long,
1
00:10:51
Okay. So the, the, the, the craziness was in like 2015. I was, this is crazy. I was at a bar, a family reunion, barbecue in Chicago. And my aunt and my mom died in 2011. So she had been dead at some time, a couple of years or whatever. And one of her youngest sister said we were, we were all in the backyard and having a cookout. And she like said, you know how your mom had that affair for eight years in front of everybody for eight years. And I pretended that I knew because I was, I just said, oh yeah. And then I called, I was stunned.
1
00:11:31
And I called my other aunt after the party and said, who was in town? And I said, did you know? And she goes, yeah. I thought we all thought you knew, because you were so close to your mom at the end. I'm like, no, I had no idea. My dad knew apparently eight years she would go on. It was all, all in California, in California. She had, cause she go on a business trip to San Francisco and he was, he worked with my mother. I don't know. No one can remember his name. No one can remember what he looked like. They didn't never met him. So they didn't know that, but they didn't even my aunt who is my was close, probably closest to my mom of her siblings, as she was telling me that she was trying to rack her brain to think.
1
00:12:13
And she couldn't remember. So she worked with him. It was a big company though. And so when it all took place in California and, and so the, I don't know anything else. I don't know who to ask. I might ask, but she has some work friends that I could ask, but that's like a weird thing. It's like, Hey, did you know, my mom had an affair? And if you, so, can I get in touch with a guy? He had a family apparently too.
2
00:12:36
Oh, wow. So he worked for the educational testing company? Yes.
1
00:12:42
Yes. Interesting.
2
00:12:44
So do you know what? Eight years?
1
00:12:49
Yeah. Okay. So it was like in the, it was, it was, and this makes perfect sense. It was eight years and it was the most tumultuous time that my sister and my mother had together. So, cause I, I didn't, I was so whatever checked out that I didn't have any kind of relationship with her that was volatile. I just sort of disappeared, but my sister and my mom were going at it. I remember she took us to San Francisco once for the 4th of July when I was 12. So I was around 12. My sister was 13. They had a huge blowout in San Francisco and I couldn't, and I bet it was everyone projected my mom projecting onto her children, all kinds of shit.
1
00:13:29
I remember she left us at the spree member of spree. There was a huge outlet in San Francisco and she loved exactly.
2
00:13:38
She left
1
00:13:39
Us there all day once. And I think, yeah, like we were 12 and 13 and she dropped us off in the morning and we were there. I remember there was a restaurant in it too. It was crazy or like in the outlet, but like she'd left us there from like 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM. And I think there was some Shanana and shenanigans going on and my sister barely remembers it and she's dead. So what can we do
2
00:14:03
As a side note? The word shenanigans reminds me on this real house. I've shy. Watch this woman. Who's not a native English speaker. She is, she's talking about something. She's like, you know, I got up to my shit on this, my shit on the ocean. I'm going to start saying that. But the, okay. So what's interesting to me about the whole spree thing and, and you hanging out there. I mean, everybody is just in the middle of their own experience. So like, if that was me, I'd be like,
3
00:14:44
Oh my God, I love this out. I'm so
2
00:14:47
Happy. I get to spend so much time here at my, my memory of it would be all about like how I was experiencing the store and your sister's memory. Might've been, you know, about her thing. And, but what what's hilarious to me in some ways, even, even though a lot of times, this led to drama for the kids, the balls that our parents' generation had on them. Right. Like my mom told me that she remembers her father taking her to this lady's house. And then the kid, her kid would come out and they'd say, go play. And they'd be playing in the front yard for whatever. However long it was that the two of them were getting up to their stuff.
2
00:15:27
And I just, you know, not that I would ever have an affair, but if I did or I wanted to do anything secret, like I wouldn't ever take my kids because my kids notice everything. Like, why are you doing that? If you can't, I can not hide one same thing from them, I guess. It's just because the culture was like that the kids were not involved in things. Yeah. I
1
00:15:50
Think that's right. And I think also your, I a really aware and present parent. I'm not saying that you're perfect, but I'm saying that you have a good relationship with your kids in that there don't seem to be a tremendous amount of secrets. So our family, there were a lot of secrets, right? And so when you're in a culture of secrets, you just hold the secret. Cause your parents tell you to hold whatever secret it is. Even if you don't know you're holding the secret. Like we were at the esprit outlet. And I remember thinking it's interesting. I remember being really happy. Although I also remember thinking we were here a long time.
1
00:16:34
Like I was happy at first. And then I was like, why are we still here? It's like seven hours later. We're still at the spree or outlet in San Francisco. What are we doing here? And I, and my sister just, I did one of those things and she said, she kind of blacked it out, you know? So, but they had a big blow out in a store in San Francisco. I just totally remember.
2
00:16:53
Also the two of you made, I mean, just in the absence of information, we just also make up our own stories. And like, if your child mind thinks like, oh, this is what happened. I mean, I could see you saying something to yourself on to each other. Like, this is what happens in San Francisco. You know, you're expected to just be at the store all day long. San Francisco
1
00:17:13
Is all about you go to a spree for hours a day and eat there. There was like a restaurant in this spree. I don't,
2
00:17:21
I know, I remember the, I don't remember what was near it, but I have a feeling it was maybe like in Daly city or
1
00:17:28
Something. Yeah. It wasn't in San Francisco proper. It was fucking, it was out outlier. But I remember like a spree was so expensive and fancy, so expensive. And I remember it being a huge deal that she left us there. Like she was so, and she must've given us some money, but like I, yeah, it's just a bizarre thing. Like his spree always will have that connotation to me is that company,
2
00:17:55
By the way, should come back, that would be so popular right now. Given how eighties fashion is. So
1
00:18:01
That was some shit that was some, it
3
00:18:03
Was in fact, actually, I'm kind of thinking about a couple of sweatshirts. Yeah. It's
2
00:18:08
Free. And I'm thinking, yeah, that would look good right now. I could, I could. What's
1
00:18:11
Hilarious. Is that it sweaters because you're obsessed with sweatshirt. I'm
2
00:18:14
Obsessed with sweatshirts. And I just realized the other day, my daughter is obsessed with sweatshirts and my son and we'll wear a sweatshirt even when it's too warm because we just like feeling cozy.
1
00:18:24
That's fantastic. I mean, you might overheat, you might overheat, but, but it's
2
00:18:30
Been raining like the entire summer here. It's been cold and raining like more often than it's been anything else. And it's burning hot there and there's no water. We wish we could ship you. Some of our
1
00:18:43
It's like crazy over here. It's crazy. Oh, that's crazy.
2
00:18:48
Do you do, do you have restrictions on like your shower? We don't,
1
00:18:52
But we try to, I mean, there will, there should be, but we try to not. So, so I do this thing in California that I never would think about, which is I don't run the water while I brush my teeth. I don't. They say to actually wash the dishes with the dishwasher because it uses less. I thought that was stupid, but then it's true. Then just run it less. So we just use the dishwasher. We don't take long showers. I never really did. But, and then like sometimes the water I use leftover water. I don't know if it's any good, but leftover water from pasta and stuff to water my plants. It could be,
2
00:19:32
Think that's okay. We call that gray water. I grew up like that. Cause I grew up in California. I never have taken a long shower. I, my showers, everybody makes fun of me. My showers, unless I'm washing my
1
00:19:44
Hair. Yeah. Are like five minutes. Seven minutes. No like 90 seconds. That's amazing. I mean like you just have to scrub your parts a little bit. I don't get
2
00:19:54
What it is to me. It's like you get in, you do all the soap, you rinse off and you're done. I don't know what people are doing. My husband takes the longest shot. I showed his miles. Maybe period.
1
00:20:05
I don't know. They're just like hanging out. I don't know what they're doing. Let me run this by really obsessed with this idea of leveling up. And it sounds so like secret, like the secret or like some power of now bullshit. But here's what I found out. Oh my gosh. I found out what someone else was charging to write monologues. And I was like, Gina, Gina, Gina, Gina to this, I'm done. I'm done. I was like, I'm a ghost.
1
00:20:45
So I was talking to someone and she was like, how much do you charge for monologues? And I told her, I don't even want to say it out loud was very low. And she goes, you need to be charging five times that I charge five times what you charged to write one monologue? I said, what? I was deceased. And she said, and I have, and the reason, and it's one of these things where she said the reason she didn't say it in a mean way, but she said, the reason you don't have enough clients or that you're not is because you're not valuing your work. So like, what would you do with she's like you like luxury hotels. I'm like, yeah, I like a luxury hotel. She's like, what would you do if the four seasons charged a hundred dollars a night, I'd say, oh, there's something wrong with that four seasons.
1
00:21:29
And she said, that's what's going on with your work? And I said, oh my God. I said, I like stopped. We were walking. And I stopped. And I just, my mind was blown. And she said, you basically you're, you're like in a, you have a, like a little cup of water and there's the ocean is like behind you. You can't see it. And I, I, I, it clicked. And I was like, okay, okay. No, all right. I can't be my, my, well, anything's better than $0. Mentality is not helping me, which is why it ends up working at like the am PM. Do you know what I mean?
1
00:22:09
And why I like entertain working there? It doesn't. Or like, or like when I worked at the donut shop, like what, what in the what? And then it's nothing against it. It's nothing against the donut shop. It's my thinking. That is kind of screwy in terms of my intention for working at the donut shop, you know, that's the problem area.
2
00:22:30
So are you going to raise your rates?
1
00:22:33
So I, I, now she was like, someone wants a monologue. She told me, and I was like, Gina, this is I'm the daughter of an immigrant. We do not charge this. It was, she's like $500 per monologue. And I said, $500.
2
00:22:50
Oh my God, I thought you were going to say that you were charging $50. And she was saying, you should charge two 50, $500 a monologue.
1
00:22:59
Gina. I would just be honest. I had been charging $85 a monologue. And, and, and she said 500. She said, no less than 500. She's like, what are you doing? You're 40. What are you doing? And I was like I said, I can't at my, I was shaking. I was so UN and yesterday I had a similar experience with my mentor, where I finally finished the script, 11 drafts in 12 drafts and or something it's done. It's ready. Like, someone else will have notes. But I mean, like my work with my mentor on the script is done and I was talking to her and she's like I said, you know, I just really want to learn. So, so that Gina and I can write and change the industry and I can change the industry.
1
00:23:41
And she said, never get in a room and say, you want to learn. And I, what she goes, when you're meeting with people, you say what you bring to the table. This is not a learning experience. This is you are a bad ass, basically a bad ass, bringing, bringing your expertise to the table. There's no learning and you can keep that to yourself. And I was like, wow, because people, people, I didn't know the way people interpret the way you say things in a way that maybe in Hollywood. And look, I know that you can say, Hey, my vision is to like, really I'm an emerging writer. And I want to, I want to get an a writer's room and I want to meet people. And, and right. But to say like, my vision is to learn how to do television in a writer's room.
2
00:24:26
Okay. So we, now we have a project. You and me, we need to read the book by Mika Brzezinski, which I know she's maybe got problems with she's problematic in some way, she has a book called, know your worth. Oh, I never heard of this. I'm writing it down. And people have referenced it to me tons of times, and I've never read it, but this is what it's about. It's about women changing their mindset from being, you know, oh, I'll just take a handout of whatever you want to give me. I'll just, I'm just, and you know, and we, we shouldn't, I don't know why it takes us so long to learn this message because you and I have talked even on this podcast about like reading things that other people submit for contests that when, and you're just going, like, I would never even submit that because a woman is more likely to not submit something.
2
00:25:12
If it's not really, really good. Whereas Amanda is like, well, let's just give this a try. Let's just give this a try. Let's just try it. So, so I love this I'm yes. The $500. In fact, now that we've been talking about it, it's probably in increased in appreciation. You should probably be charging $600 for your mom, because also you are such a good listener and observer of people that I'm sure that the people you're writing these monologues for it's so perfect for them.
1
00:25:41
Right? Yeah. And they get agents, look, they use them and they get eight. So, and sometimes I was embarrassed to tell her, but I'll just say it because I'm sure other people have this problem too. Sometimes if I am doubting myself, when with my writing and monologues, I have given them for free to say, Hey, I'll just give you this for free. That way the bar is so low that they can't, I'm afraid of, as, as we know, we've talked on this podcast, like I'm afraid of negative or constructive feedback, or like people having a problem with something I've written or who I am or whatever. So, and I, instead of saying, no, I stand by this.
1
00:26:23
If you don't like it, that's fine. Like, but I'm still charging this. And then we can have a conversation afterwards about if you're disgruntled. I just would say, you know what? Just have this monologue. She's like, you will never do that again. You will never know. And I was like, okay. I just, I, it hit me like a ton of bricks is last week. I was like, maybe it was the week before. I, I couldn't believe it was going on. And my mind was blown blown. And I was like, you charge what, what? Oh,
2
00:26:56
That's amazing. That's amazing. You'll never go back. I'll never tell that because
1
00:27:01
Now I know that the truth is the truth. Like, I think that's what saved me. Like denial is not something that is not a skill. I have it, of course, but it's not like my specialty. So like, same with the doctor, shit. Like the doctor told me your heart is this. You got to lose this weight. You got to, I can't pretend that the cardiologists didn't say that to me as much as I want to. I it's in my head. And it's like, I heard it. I saw it. I was present. So I cannot deny it. I cannot same with this. I can't, I can't go back. You're right. I can't pretend.
2
00:27:41
And that's and you shouldn't. Cause you're, you're worth so much more. That is so interesting. I'm all about leveling up to man. I'm all about like, and with the money thing, it's so psychological. Somebody that somebody that I know is very close to me has his own business. And he charges what he charges and he got told by somebody else, you need to be charging twice that, and he started to say, if I try, if I charged twice that then I'll lose my business. And instead it's had the exact opposite effect. People are clamoring. He has a waiting list, you know, because especially, you know, people who have the money and actually even me, oftentimes when I'm trying to choose between things, I will make the assumption that the thing that's more expensive is better.
1
00:28:32
Yes. And I, I think also it's just, yes, I think that's human nature. I think that's human nature. I don't think that is like, I mean the value are we going to, and when am I going? And this is the same with my health. When am I going to value myself enough to do right by myself? You know, like when is the time? And if not at 45, about to be 46, when the hell am I going to do it and I don't see any other time to do it, but now, like I don't, it doesn't seem like, oh, next year I'll start.
0
00:29:08
That seems like a terrible idea at a time. Now, today in the podcast, we're talking with Dawn, Vanessa brown Dawn is an actress who lives on the east coast. And she told us all about her hilarious adventures and not so hilarious adventures and beautiful and messy and hard times being in bed, Syracuse university in the New York city and moving to an island. And she is a great way of telling stories. So please enjoy our conversation with Don, Vanessa brown and lesser
1
00:30:03
As my husband and my dad would say, dad bless you on your journey, you know, and goodbye and good luck. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, congratulations,
2
00:30:12
Don. You survived theater
3
00:30:14
School. Ooh, I did. I did. You survived
2
00:30:17
It Syracuse, right? Are you a New York? Are you have you, are you from New York?
3
00:30:23
No, I'm from New Jersey.
2
00:30:25
Okay. But like close. Close. Yeah. Yeah. So did, did you apply to a bunch of different schools?
3
00:30:31
I mean, honestly, that was back in the day when three was tops in terms of schools you applied to and I applied to Yale blindly, and that was about the time when they were, the Ivy league were doing, they were doing things first off, I mistakenly applied to Yale when I really should have applied, realized it was Yale drama I wanted, but I just, I was, it was a small, it's a Catholic, small Catholic school, you know, parents back in the day, she didn't, you didn't really get any help. And even though my dad was a teacher, I got no help.
3
00:31:12
So it was like a moot point to Yale. And I almost got in, but they had back in the day, they had a quota and they were like, listen, because I applied early decision. They were like, we can't take you because we have enough of you. But if you want to go to Princeton, we can make you, we can, we can possibly see if you could go there. And I was like, no. And then I applied to NYU and never, literally never heard back from them. Didn't apply, never got my application calls again, said, can I have an application sent me enough application, apply nothing.
3
00:31:54
And, and, and money, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't like today, like Olivia applied to, I don't know, 10 colleges money was an object. So I was like, okay. And then I was like, and I did my own research. And I thought, ah, fuck. All right, Syracuse, it looks okay. And, but did you have to audition? I did. I did in the city at Lubin house. What's that? It's a Syracuse university townhouse on the upper east. Oh, oh, I see. Like a satellite location. If you were for alumni, they had rooms. You could stay in if you were hanging out for the weekend. And so one of the drama professors was there over the weekend and I auditioned,
2
00:32:40
How did do you remember? I do. What did you do?
1
00:32:48
Listen, it's not going to be any worse or weirder than what we've heard. I'm telling you right now. I played, I was 18 and played a 49 year old woman who was raped and then tortured and killed the rapist at 1716. Right.
3
00:33:04
That was 17. You did that stuff. I could do it. Right. I did from a Lily Tomlin show something called sister boogie woman.
2
00:33:15
Okay. Is it from a man in the marigolds or? I
3
00:33:19
Have, no, I don't think we did a cabaret at school and I did sister boogie woman. She was supposed to be a preacher and it was one of a Lily Tomlin, standup act. And I did it. That is cool. Was it fun? It was fun. It was fun. But with the other kid who audition next to me, I never forget this. Oh my God. His name was Freddy. And he was so serious. Like, he'd already, he'd done. I hadn't done stock. I hadn't done anything. All I had done was like Catholic school plays Catholic high school plays.
3
00:34:02
And he was so serious. And, and, and, and he was like, you know, I, if you don't mind, I just need a minute to prepare. And I was like, okay, I didn't need, yeah.
1
00:34:14
That's those people that are like, I need to, and I was like, I want to talk to you and see where you're from. And they're like, lady back off. So yeah.
3
00:34:25
So I went in really, really blind. And then when I got there, it was, it was a huge shock in what way, Syracuse. And I don't know if they still do it, but they, their program is completely separate from the university. And Syracuse is a huge RA school. And it's, I mean, at the time it was, they called it, you know, the Jewish princess school, the lung guy, one school and rah school. It had, it had something for everybody.
3
00:35:07
And as an only child from a really closed Catholic school, I couldn't wait. But the culture shock was once I got there, we took classes at Syracuse stage across the street from a psychiatric center down on east Genesee street. And we had to take what you took was called common core. And you, it was like a nine to five job, nine to five freshman year down at the theater. Each part of the theater was, was where you did your classes, dance. Whether it was intro to acting theater history, it was literally costuming.
3
00:35:50
It literally stretched a whole day. And only by about two or three o'clock did you actually get up on campus? And that was wonderful and awful at the same time,
2
00:36:04
Because you didn't get to blend with the others. We told,
3
00:36:07
Oh my God. And we stuck out like sore thumbs. I worked very hard to stay on the edge as it were meaning most of my friends with the exception of two belts, the exception of Patsy sister sister-in-law. Oh, I never heard that. You didn't know that I went to Syracuse with Patsy sister-in-law in turn. And I missed her by like two or three days. Cause her brother and his wife came to visit and I never knew, but you had a place when you went up there, you were, we were like freaks out of water. Even the music department of the school was under the umbrella of VPA, visual, performing arts.
3
00:36:51
And they had a beautiful, beautiful, big Victorian castle up on the hill where all the music students took classes and anything to do with music. But the drama kids were a 15 minute walk off campus across from crazy. And they were walking around. And so, wow. Yeah. Well, I mean,
1
00:37:18
People probably couldn't tell the difference between the theater. Students said maybe that the people who are clients over there, cause we're where you mean like that you stuck out because of the dress and the smoking cigarettes and that kind of a situation
3
00:37:29
You stuck out because, oh my God. Okay. So there were two majors that, that you could take, you, you, you, you, you took, there was music theater, they had a music theater major and they had an acting major and I was an acting major, but you took classes with the music theater kids and the things I learned, I listened to kids vomit at lunchtime, the girls, because the directors of the music theater program way fat shamed you. I mean, I, you know, I got fat shamed and I was in the acting program and I was like, fuck you, there's nothing wrong with me. And you started to, I mean, we, we walked on campus and, and it was punk was big and we are wearing legwarmers like tights and legwarmers with sneakers.
3
00:38:21
And we just think we're so fucking unique.
3
00:39:06
Everybody went off campus, got an apartment to be close to the theater. Wow. And I was, and that was for a lot of girls that was their college experience. That was not, I was determined that wasn't going to happen. Well, one thing that strikes
2
00:39:24
Me about the way in which the school was such situated was it, then they really did treat it like a conservatory. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, cause that's the experience that we had to not being really a part of our university, unless, unless you lived in the dorms and mixed it up that way, but it's DePaul, the theater school at DePaul, Indiana,
3
00:39:46
Chicago, Chicago. Okay. Yeah.
2
00:39:48
So there was, and I think, you know, and you're what you're describing long hours. I think that has something to do with it. They want in a way they probably don't want the kids to have so much of a college experience because they don't want you to do anything that gets your focus off of, you know,
3
00:40:07
It's true, but you know, you're 18. I was 17. Mean your, your hormones are raging and straight guys were few and far between. And there were a lot, I don't know if I can say there are a lot of just like horny girls who, who, and a lot of young boys, they would not be confused in today's society. They could. I mean, cause you can be anything they could be. I can see now that some of the boys that we were like, what's up with them. They were probably non-binary and they, and, and, and, and, and they floated in and out, but there weren't enough what straight cis-gender boys to, to keep the drama department happy.
3
00:40:55
And it was also, it was also Lily white. Yeah. Me, I sense a pattern, another guy, Gary Brown, and two other girls from the city who left after sophomore year. So it was just me and Gary
1
00:41:19
Out of how many, how many did you, did you end up graduating with, do think,
3
00:41:24
Oh yeah. 50. Oh, that's big. Maybe I'm saying 50, but then no. Oh no.
1
00:41:37
- Yeah. But still only two people of color. That's insane. Yeah. Yeah.
2
00:41:44
It's consistent though with, with,
1
00:41:48
With the times and with the schools kind of situation with the theater program. Wow. So what about shows?
2
00:41:56
Did you do a show every term?
3
00:41:59
Well, they had a rule that freshmen could not audition. They were strictly common watch and learn, and I loved that. It took so much pressure off and then come sophomore year, you could audition. So I did sophomore year. I did getting out by Marsha. It's not Marsha Mason, Marsha Norman, Marsha, Norman junior year. I got cast in because the perk of being next to Syracuse stage or taking classes at Syracuse stage was that when they needed extras, they would call upon the students.
3
00:42:48
So I got cast in merchant of Venice, merchant of Venice. And then what did I do junior year? And I did something else which, which, which really escapes me senior year was the big year. And it really, I, I scarred as I am from Syracuse, I got my equity card right out of college. They had an agreement with equity that their senior year they would do a bus and truck touring thing, a children's show.
3
00:43:34
And they would cast it from the graduating seniors who all had to audition. And now when I think about it, I said 35. It's probably more like 20. I realized there weren't a lot of us. It seemed huge at the time. And I got cast and I got my card that way.
1
00:43:56
That's I think that's really smart. Oh,
3
00:43:59
I wouldn't, I don't think I would've ever been able to have gotten it. If it hadn't been that way. I
2
00:44:04
Was going to say doing a traveling children's show is about the best training you can get right out of college because you have all of the energy that is required for it. And you really learn about audiences, audiences who are psyched to see you, audiences who are not psyched to see you. People who feel really confident and comfortable just yelling things out while you're performing, you know, it's, it's a real trial by fire situation. Yeah.
1
00:44:33
Did you all have to put up the set and do that all
3
00:44:38
With the set in the back of the van? Yeah. I love that too. Nice. If we all got along that would've made it a lot easier, but we didn't. How long did you do it for, and, but we made it through. Okay. Why don't you do it for month and a half? Okay.
2
00:45:00
So is the curriculum there the same at other places does voice and speech component and acting component.
3
00:45:08
Mary Earl, Mary Earl bless her heart. She was Southern and she was the voice teacher. And she was, I mean, I was her pet cause I could, I can do, I could do dialects, but she was really passive aggressive mean. And then we had Dr. Compel who was theater history and they called him crampy and our acting teachers were, oh, they
2
00:45:37
Were really odd.
3
00:45:42
God. And really, and the men were really damaged. Oh yeah. That was the downside of everybody being around together is that you got to see. And we were, I think we were way too young to see the dysfunction. There was Victor who was, who was it? It is amazing. He was apparently a heavy man and he lost a lot of weight. So he decided to transfer his body issues onto the freshmen class. And it just the pressure, the pressure. And, and then he picked freshmen girls who he liked too educate further.
3
00:46:31
Oh,
1
00:46:33
Wow. I mean, it's not
2
00:46:35
Like an open secret kind of a situation.
3
00:46:39
And then man, who auditioned me, ended up leaving. He was so sweet. I'm sure he's not here now. Carlton Collier and his backstory. I mean, we, I shouldn't know this. Okay. I shouldn't know that he met this woman on an actress or something and she got, they got married, she got pregnant and she left him with the baby. So at the time this was a middle-aged man trying to raise a son. Wow. And I mean, he even came to one of our cast parties and it was, it was, it was just like, oh God.
3
00:47:25
And everybody's like, Carl's in the back bathroom getting high.
2
00:47:30
Oh, oh God. Oh God. It's all too real. It's all true. True.
3
00:47:35
It also sounds so
1
00:47:37
Similar to our experience. Like you really sounds. Yes. So we went to a conservatory, you went to a conservatory, basically. This is what you went to. And I mean, I don't, I'm just saying like, they're so similar. Like the exact same things went on and we probably went to school around the same time. And that time was just a hotbed for inappropriate. Like totally now would go to jail kind of suggestions.
3
00:48:05
Now I would go to jail.
2
00:48:07
One thing that comes up a lot on here when we have guests who are people of color is, is just, well, so w so we've had the range of ages, including somebody who's just, just now graduated from theater school and then people who are more our age. But so the, the just graduated person had a very different experience than the people who are our age. But a lot of people talk about these micro and not so micro aggressions coming from the other students, coming from the teachers. And one of the main ones is just the material. The material always being plays written by white people with white characters.
2
00:48:53
Was it like that as Syracuse?
3
00:48:55
It was to start. I think you have to understand the relationship white people have with a person, a black person who looks like me. Now, granted my hair, I showed you the picture. My hair was cut really short. That was my protest. I don't know why. And they don't know what to do with you. But I, I understood going in because I grew up, my Catholic school had three black people in it. I grew up in second grade. Somebody told me, you know, you need to go back to Africa.
3
00:49:36
And I thought, I'm going to get you suspended. You know, I had, I knew all of that. And I knew the inner workings of white people. And I happened to, to be quite honest, I, I went in and I did not expect them to, I mean, that wasn't even a thought that they would have people of color writing plays that wasn't, I didn't even think of that. And I stood out because I got cast every year because I was good. But I do remember when they did getting out three guys who were my, they were friends, but they weren't friends and frenemies.
3
00:50:22
Yes. Kind of, but we didn't hang out. They were, they were out at a time when it was a big deal to be out. And they were, they were kind of sarcastic and they were mean, and they were like, oh, Hey, congratulations. I said, you know, and something, I said, okay, thank you. And they said, well, we didn't audition. Cause we don't do ghetto theater.
1
00:50:45
Oh, that's just a straight up aggression.
3
00:50:48
And, and I said, it's not ghetto theater. It's poor people doing that. And they were like, well, we didn't. And they didn't have the, they didn't have the intellectual bandwidth to, to have a discussion about this. And I was always someone that I really believed. They knew I was black, but I wasn't too black. And I liked doing classical theater. I mean, we did, there was merchant of Venice. There were other things I liked to doing a lot of stuff. And I did not, I was outspoken, but I was not outspoken until about my senior year about race.
3
00:51:32
So I expected what I got. I was not expecting anything inclusive. They did have a traveling show of, for colored girls and to the other two girls that I told you and, and black women, which was the three of us were encouraged to audition. And that they also had an agreement that that show would go equity. And though those people would get their cards. So I obviously was not cast in that, but the other two girls were, they got their cards and never came back.
3
00:52:13
And it, you know, I, it was what I was used to. It was what I was used to any type of my true friends. Well, one was a social work major. And the other one, she was an acting major, but I knew she wasn't going to stick it through because she had so many other ideas and we lived, we lived on campus and I lived my life. You know, I was around brown people and white people. So when I came down there, I thought, oh, it's okay. I was used to it.
3
00:52:53
I grew up in an all white neighborhood where we were the only black family on the block. I knew the drill and that's sad to say, but I knew I knew the drill. I did not expect anything more.
2
00:53:04
And has theater have your theater experiences since then all been very similar?
3
00:53:09
Yes. Okay. Yeah.
2
00:53:12
Cause I know that's the situation you're in right now.
3
00:53:16
I think theater theaters is, is just so hypocritical. It is not inclusive. Anytime. Any, any person of color wanted to, to act, they had to form their own workshops. I remember there was a place called Frank Silveras workshop. There was God, and this is ancient. And when I knew them, they were, they were, they were, they were closing, it was Negro ensemble company. And they were huge back in the day. And there was a another place, but you know, one theater company for all the people of color in the city is not going to hit it.
3
00:54:01
And, and I understood that. And I, I mean, my experiences in the city were a Bismal. It was hard. I mean, it was horrible and I had to leave and I did leave. Wow.
1
00:54:16
Did you, did you have a showcase like we did where agents and all that stuff at the end?
3
00:54:22
No, just, just the children's show and the equity card. Yeah. Which is great, which is, which is great. But there was no, no Syracuse was too far for them to have,
2
00:54:33
But did, did the school do anything in terms of teaching you about the cause? One of our evergreen complaints is that the school did almost nothing to teach us about like the business. How are you going to make a living?
3
00:54:47
They tried, we had a, how do audition class? Well, if you knew the teacher, you can ACE that, you know, you would, how can you go in cold when you know that person? Because you're stuck with them all the time. You've had dinner at their house, you know, yet her husband is the dramaturg for Syracuse stage stop. We also had another woman who was an equity stage manager come and speak about living in New York. And that was possibly the best stuff I got because, oh, but, but not for the reason that you may be thinking, she started talking about neighborhoods where you could live in.
3
00:55:33
And I, of course was the only black person there. And I remember she said, and you should check out little Italy or Chinatown. And then she looked at me and, and, and the look on her face was like, not you, not you. And I knew I was like, and, and, and, and that, at that point, I mean, my city experiences is a whole other podcast. I mean, th the, the, the housing bigotry was, oh, God, it was rampant. Horrible, horrible. And
2
00:56:08
If you, if you feel comfortable, I mean, I'd love to hear a little bit about
3
00:56:12
It. I, you start out, I, you know, ads and stuff like that. And, and there were shares back in the day. It was, you can share them. I mean, I guess there are, I don't know. And this is how I sound. So you form a preconceived notion. And back in the day, when I showed up at the door, I think aside from the one guy that tried to have sex with me, when I was it's like, you know what? I got to go, even then being, being like 21, I was like, so are you still renting the room?
3
00:56:52
You were like all about the business. Can I still get the room? I can put a million locks on the door. Aye. Aye. By the third time, when I showed up and this happened to me at Syracuse too, with my first roommate, I showed up and they went you're Dawn. And I was like, yeah. And they were like, oh, good, come on. Okay. Come on in. And they would spend a quality five minutes with me and then go, you know what, I'm sorry, we just, we got an offer. And we just ran after that, I thought, okay.
3
00:57:34
And I had a friend from, from home who was, who was black. She come out of Yale and she was much darker than me. And because she was coming out of Yale with invests and with investment banking and investment banking degree, it took her twice as long as a white, as a white girl to get the apartment. But she got the apartment in Manhattan because she had Yale and she ended up going to Harvard. She had that behind her. And that's what it took to get a shit up. It was that the discrimination was so bad.
3
00:58:15
I ended up God taking a leap of faith and thought, all right, I'm going to move to Harlem. I don't know. I think it's going to be okay. It was horrible. But I lived there for five years. I mean, I had crack dealers across the street. I had half the block abandoned. I had a little old lady down the stairs named Ms. Green. May she rest in peace? Who used to look out for me when I came home and, and invite me in for a beer, she'd worked all her life as a domestic.
3
00:58:59
She didn't have a stitch of hair. She wore a wig and she was a domestic. And she would sit and I tell her I was an actress. And she would tell me stories about Lauren Bacall. Wow. That she wasn't as nice. She was not, not, not the nicest lady. Beauty does not seem nice. I don't think she was bitching and it's. And she said, it's a wonder, she's still alive. The way she smoked. It was like a chimney in there. Yes.
2
00:59:25
Because the spiteful people live the longest. Yeah. So did your parents, I mean, did they worry about you going to Syracuse and then living in the city? Did they have concerns about, I mean, you, you were expecting it I guess, but did they?
3
00:59:44
Well, my father, he was an odd dude. He was a high school history teacher and a really popular one. And, but he also, his, his love was he fancied himself an artist. He was going to be a jazz musician or this and that. And he and my parents, my mom divorced early. And he was so pissed off that he would only have sporadic visits with me in between. Like he loved Scandinavia, very strange parenting. And he did not, he honestly did not care.
3
01:00:25
He did not care because he had to pay college and child support and we had to go to court. So he could, he could give a fuck. My mother, as far as Syracuse was concerned, she didn't have a problem. She apparently told me much later. Cause I also lived in another place on the right off of west end avenue and 86th street. It's, it's a nice little building now. But at the time it was an SRO and they were trying to change them over. They had homeless people in them, but they were trying to get college students in. And it was 50 50. And I lived there, but I didn't live with any college.
3
01:01:08
We all had, we all shared a bathroom, but we all had like little studios. I live next door to a man who I thought was dead. But then the other people in our pod came to me one morning, desperate saying, do you realize what he's doing? I'm like, no, no, no. What's he doing? The man was crazy. He was, he was going to the bathroom in bags and throwing them in line, like garbage cans. So I, you know, and, and it was, it was so sad. That was, that was the best Manhattan had to offer me.
3
01:01:47
That's why I was like, let me see Harlem. So at least I had a whole apartment, but I was scared every minute of the day
2
01:01:56
Get like, was there, did you experience any crime yourself?
3
01:02:00
Hm. I didn't. It, it didn't happen. I was so naive. Somebody had told me, you need to have bars on the windows. I was like, fine. I put bars on the windows. I didn't know. I needed to get a lock for them. Oh, right, right. Cause they, they have chorea so you could get out and cause I was right on a fire escape and one of, and the fire escape window that locked, that didn't lock. So I assumed I was okay. It never occurred to me. I needed to get a lock. So I'm sleeping one night.
3
01:02:42
And it's a studio. And I, I know I saw the stop line, Dawn, you can't lie to yourself. I saw the window being opened, the great being opened and a foot about to come through. I woke up, screamed, threw stuff at the window and they left and I thought, oh, okay. And then I talked to somebody and they were like, you need a lock.
3
01:03:22
And I thought, oh my God, why didn't I know. And it turned out that then, then when I call the police and, and that was, that was wonderful. I called the police and they came and, and I wouldn't say they took their time, but they weren't there right away. But when they came and the operator wanted to stay on the phone with me, because I called 9 1 1, but the cops came and they were like, we didn't expect anybody like you to be here. I was like, okay. I mean, I, I had no illusions about the cops and there was absolutely nothing they can do.
3
01:04:06
I bought a, a padlock at that point. Then I learned that my next door neighbor's daughter was a crack addict. And it was probably one of her friends that was climbing in.
2
01:04:22
Oh, I thought you were going to say, and then I learned, you know, that there was a rapist looking for crimes of opportunity,
3
01:04:29
Nothing like that, nothing like that, because this may sound crazy as, as, as dangerous as that part of Harlem was, they knew everybody. I stuck out like a sore thumb. And, and I don't know if you can remember. No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, you wouldn't know the city in those days. It was a whole, when, when crack was really, really, really big, like late eighties, early nineties, there were lots of high school kids, young, young boys and girls driving around in Jeeps with stereos in the back.
3
01:05:13
And they were the runners for the big dealers. And my street was just, and they knew people. They just, you know, so there was, I never really had a fear of rape mugged shore by some crazy crack head. Yes. And that's enough to make you feel. Yeah, that's
1
01:05:37
That's enough this whole time. Are you acting, are you trying
3
01:05:41
To act, I want you to act, I am trying to ask, but what I also learned was I didn't know how to support myself and I had to draw. So I came out of school after the children's show I worked at, I thought I was going to work at home for a year and that didn't work. I was going to work. I had a job in the library and Princeton, which was very near my house and that didn't work out. It didn't work out with my mom. She was just my role. So I came to the city with like $500 in my pocket. And I had found a place with an older woman who ended up, I ended up leaving.
3
01:06:26
I ended up leaving in six months and going to the SRO and that, you know, things are bad
2
01:06:36
For people who don't know that single room occupancy. Yes. Like, it's like a, it's like a motel. Like, you know, it's
1
01:06:43
Like a motel mixed with the halfway house, kind of a field. Yeah.
3
01:06:47
May they rest in peace? So I, and then I was doing, I was just obviously strictly doing backstage. And that was around the time before everything changed, where if the audition started at nine o'clock, you had to get in line at seven to sign up and then go to your support job and take that lunch hour. Hope they weren't running late. I mean, it was a fuck up. And I fucked up, I saw it. I, it took me a long time to learn. I got to be there at seven. I thought there's no way. There's no way I'm not signing up at seven. And then what am I going to do?
3
01:07:27
I'm going to go all the way back up to Harlem and then come all the way back down to Midtown for my temperature job, because that's what I was doing. I was temping at offices around and it just didn't work. So I dropped out and I worked at an investment, a small investment firm for a year. And I took a computer classes, word, Prague, word processing, as it was back in the day I took all of those classes, had some money in the bank, still living in Harlem, but I was still doing, I was just doing a nine to five. I finally, after a year and a half, I was like, okay. I moved to temp agencies and started stuff.
3
01:08:11
And I got nothing, nothing. I didn't work for years, years, and years. And then I called in a favor after a while I called in a favor and then I moved to Brooklyn and that turned into be a nightmare. Oh my God. I didn't know. This is, it's almost like candied, like you're walking in innocent walking. Well, I moved to first off, I missed the whole park slope Revit. I missed it. I missed it.
3
01:08:50
Somebody somebody offered to you was like, and I mean, he had a crush on me, went to get my pants, but I, you know, it was an apartment and he was like, you should move to park slope. But then he had an end and I thought I can't do it because I heard him make an anti-Semitic slur because we had a, we had a support job and he made the most horrific slur. And I thought, I can't live with you. I, I, you know, and, and I couldn't, I didn't want to tell him, I just said, that's it. So I, I just ended things with him. I moved to crown Heights. Okay. I had no idea, literally, literally on the border line with the Caribbean neighborhood and the Hasidim literally, I took a walk like in that direction for two blocks.
3
01:09:40
And there were for hats and beautiful, beautiful homes, but just men in, in, in a few men walking around and for us, I lived in the Caribbean side. And then I had to run from that place because I didn't realize that because I had never dealt with Caribbean people. This is not good. This color is not good. And somebody told me as we were, I was walking down the street. I didn't stay long. I had to, I had to leave in the cover of night and break the lease. Somebody told me, you know, they're talking about you on this block, but they were using Patois because somebody was selling drugs and somebody was letting somebody in.
3
01:10:27
And I was being like, Susie, good American. And I called the cops. And they were like, you can't, you can't call the cops. And then another story I'm at the mailbox, a woman, a costs me. And she said, you're still here. And she was a sweet woman. She said, get out, get out. Now, this place is full of drugs. They, they, they, they, the real estate agents sold you a bill of goods and she was leaving and she was fearful. She said, they've already threatened me and my kid. And she left. I left within a month. Wow. My gosh acting was, I was still trying, but, and then I finally moved to the meat packing district.
3
01:11:14
And that was great.
2
01:11:20
By live, we get to, it's not an, it's not a nightmare, but I'm curious about the signup thing for audition. So is the idea that everything like it wasn't appointments, everything was open and you just had to go,
3
01:11:32
You signed up for your slot, but you still, you signed up for your slot. It opened up to sign up, opened up at eight o'clock. Everybody was in line to get their slots from like seven. You had to get there at like seven. All the good slots were taken. If you showed up at night, if there were any at all.
1
01:11:54
Well, and if your equity, right, because if your non-equity it's even crazier, it's like people try to get slots and it's still happening. As of five years ago in Chicago, same thing. People would show up three hours early, put their name on a list, coat, go do something, come back, wait on the staircase of the theater, sitting there just for their general audition for a theater. Sometimes it's not even a role.
3
01:12:17
And here's the thing. Somebody else somebody told me is that, pardon me? Those roles are already cast. Yeah. They're already cast not going to get the fucking job because they took all the people. And why shouldn't they with agents and managers? But by law, they have to open up CPAs. And I know who's was, this was this
2
01:12:43
Mostly for Broadway shows or everything. Broadway.
3
01:12:51
You had like second or third cast replacements. And, and, and I already knew that they were a joke because the Syracuse stage shows that I, that I was, that I was in. I saw them, ah, I saw the EPA was in backstage and they'd already been cast and we were already rehearsing. Wow.
1
01:13:14
Yeah. I mean, it's just so sad. And so it takes such advantage of, of, of actors and it it's demoralizing and it's all the things. So how did you end up leaving Manhattan or leaving New York? Were you like I'm outta here? Oh,
3
01:13:29
Wow. Well, that's another story. I, I, I finally had some freedom. I was in Manhattan, loving the meat packing district and my little hole of an apartment and was able to do the called in a favor and a friend. And I said, listen, do you have an agent? Can you get me? And can you do dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And he was moving toward music, but he said, here take my old agent. Her name was, she just recently passed. Her name was Toby Gibson from young talent week. I went to visit her. She, she literally had a caftan on, literally was leaning on her sofa with the, and a cigarette holder.
3
01:14:13
And her first saying, now I'm thinking I'm really cute. Now I'm going for the natural. She's like, you're very plain jawline. You're very, very plain. Wow. And I thought I snapped at her. I said, no, I'm not. I'm natural. Like I have to start wearing more makeup. And the quality of the auditions got was amazing. But the amount of women that had this hair and that looked like me and varying shades, it was like, oh, this must be the black version of what white girls go through. And it was, it was disheartening.
3
01:14:58
It was a little too late. I did get cast in something. I do remember going to five auditions for a pizza hut commercial only to see that girl later in, in the Woody Allen film, the one film where he actually cast a black person. I remember Hazel. I can't even think what that is. Oh, it's a horrible movie. He walks around and she's a prostitute. And I thought, of course she is. Of course. Yeah. And other than that, the, it was just a lot of good caliber auditions. And I'd finally cracked the whole backstage thing. Like I was up, I was doing this, I got this, I did that.
3
01:15:39
I did it all. And after like a year of everything and Toby, I was like, I got to go. I was exhausted. I was exhausted. I was lonely. New York city was a wash in police brutality. I was afraid I'd already been, I'd already run out of, out of a, a black neighborhood. You know? I mean, it was like, where, where, where do I fit? So I did what any, any, any smart person would do? I sold all my possessions, tried to shore up some bills.
3
01:16:22
And I moved to the Caribbean. I moved to Saint John plot twist.
2
01:16:26
I would, did not see that coming.
3
01:16:29
I moved to St. John. I took a preliminary trip. Cause I thought that's what I, because I had taken a vacation and I had gotten to know some local people. And I thought they do nothing all day. Their jobs are nothing. I have been working like a dog. I'm going to the Caribbean. It was as simple as that. And I quickly found out, cause I actually researched this and did do it any island. That's not the United States. You need to have a round trip ticket because they don't want anybody dropping out of society in their island. They got enough. And which is exactly what I was to do.
3
01:17:10
But I ended up going and, and finding that St. John was what I needed to do. I started out living in a tent on a, on a campground and you could live there for a month and then you could find another place to live for a week. And then you could go back to the campground for a month. And as long as I kept my clothes free of mildew, I was okay. I mean, I, I lived on right. A few steps from the beach. There were wild donkeys. There were land.
3
01:17:51
What are they called? Land crabs heard land crabs to huge. And I became friends with the guy who I ran the place. Well, we, we, we, and, and I, I had the most ridiculous blissful time. I worked for a couple of crazy AA members who lived on St. Thomas, by the way, St. Thomas is extremely dangerous. Don't go there. And they lived on St. Thomas and they would come by, they would come by the theory and they would open up. They owned a string of, of, of t-shirt shops. And I worked with Caribbean women at the t-shirt shop.
3
01:18:32
And the first day I was like, then I grabbed what you're doing. Sit down, gotten to be here. They took the bus and then he'll go with the dollar man. And then the other man will take them all around the island, go sit down what you're doing. And then they would steal.
2
01:18:52
And you're like, yes, finally, I'm getting a real education. I hear you.
3
01:18:56
You're you're in a gift. A family take these. And I supplied my face family with a lot of sweatshirts. And St. John taught me a huge lesson that I thought I was escaping. And the bigotry, like bigotry never leaves. There was a huge, huge, you had this wonderful island and they called it paradise. Everybody lived like a hippie. I finally found, oh God, another story. I finally found it. Roommate, her name was Joycelyn and she's 50 years old. And I said, hi, Joycelyn what, what are you doing? She said, oh, I'm having a nervous breakdown here.
3
01:19:40
You want to share an apartment? And I'm so nice. I was like, yeah. I was like,
3
01:20:26
But it got a little hand. And that was where I learned that most of the businesses, a Caribbean island, most of the businesses were white owned. Most of the white people were southerners. And they bought that particular brand of their particular brand of dealing with black people with them, the black people owned nothing. The Caribbean people owned nothing. The police were so corrupt. This is the police thing. I don't even know if it's changed. You could drive with a beer open, open beer drive around the island and everybody did. But if you didn't have your seatbelt on, it would lock you up.
3
01:21:07
Okay. And I was there and I sold t-shirts and I, I learned about kids young couple of years, younger than me dropping out of society. Wealthy, mommy got a new husband, wealthy husband, husband. Doesn't like you. I knew this girl. She was from Seattle and her mother gave her a one-way plane ticket to St. John. There was another woman and she, I heard her crying on the phone. Mommy, please, can I come back? And ma her mother was like, no, sweetie. You're having such a good time there.
3
01:21:50
And you know, bad stuff ended up happening to her. There was another woman Reeves. They were all lost. Reeves who something happened again, had kids did not have custody of the kids. Don't know what happened. She was a bartender. And her thing was, she went everywhere there, foot everywhere. She tended bar barefoot. She went to the bathroom. Bear, went into a bed. Oh, good, good. That was her. Fuck you to the man.
1
01:22:23
That's like some real white people's stuff.
3
01:22:28
I end, you were never to say Merry Christmas. And this is amongst the ex-pat community. This wasn't the Caribbean people. This wasn't the St John's. This was amongst the white people. And again, only one black person. And that you never said Merry Christmas. You never said happy Thanksgiving because that's when all their trauma was. And they all had trauma stories about, you know, it's the holidays. You drink too much. Daddy raped too. I mean, just messed up stuff. That's who I hung out with.
3
01:23:10
And I would get as a final tip, I would get the park Rangers. There was one, he was Latino. And then there was another black guy. And they were like, what are you doing here? You obviously, you have a degree. You have sense. You have, what are you doing? And I mean, even by telling them they were like, go back and be a yuppie. I was like, but you don't under. Okay. All right. How long were you there? Oh, only a year time.
2
01:23:47
It occurs to me that you, you said about being on the edge and in all of these stories, I mean, you were never in the center right? Of anything. What about that now? I mean, aside from our shared group, that we're a part of like in the rest of your life, do you feel that you're finally getting to be in the center of something instead of on the end?
3
01:24:10
Yes and no. I mean, after all of these experiences and in between all of that nonsense, I had met Jim and had continued dating back and forth. And then when I left, I left and I moved in with him to Westchester. And I, it was, which was like another culture shock. I'm just like, why are you keep putting yourself in these, these things? And I started to, to teach, I made it my own program, which is, you know, and, and, and I started to, to market it and to try to teach drama to schools.
3
01:24:50
And, and for awhile, I was actually an assistant nursery school teacher, which was a blast until a bunch of moms. A lot of whom were Italian, did not like the fact that a black woman was an authority figure to their little kids. And so they started what, I guess you'd say microaggression like Ms. Brown Berenson seemed to snap really hard at Connor today. I'm wondering if you could talk to her about that. And it would just amp up and amp up and amp up. And suddenly when we needed chaperones to take the kids somewhere, we had more chaperones than we needed.
3
01:25:33
And they were all watching me. The pressure was immense. And I ended up leaving there because I thought, please, you're not paying me enough to take this racism. And I was living with Jim and I will say this. I was very lucky not to have to worry about money. That's key. And we, I mean, everything happened in, in, in, in quick succession, buying a house, finding out you have infertility issues, getting married, fixing up the house. Oh, and you have infertility issues and infertility issues.
3
01:26:13
And it takes like years for you to have a baby and fixing up your house and being put in south Salem, which at the time was very much a live and let live type of community. I did not feel I must have stuck out, but I think because of my color and my hair, people were like, who knows what she is. I didn't care. And I was literally able to live peacefully, have a child, raise my child in like a very 1950s mode. I mean, I won't lie it the way being a stay at home mom in, in south Salem is kind of like being a stay at home mom in Richfield.
3
01:26:57
And then in 1950. Yeah, exactly. You know, mommy and me, and there was a whole group of women and was I entirely comfortable? No, because I got a little bit of anxiety and that's my own thing that I was working on. But also I'd never been in a group where it was okay to just be me. It was, I was Dawn the mom, and it was, it was a role that I could hide in and I could heal. I could heal from the business and I could grow internally.
3
01:27:37
And what I will say is one of the best things that the universe has ever done for me is to not have my career furthered during the, during my twenties, that would have been, I'd be dead. I would be dead because there is so much shaming of women, if there was some type of pill or something. Cause I w I mean, you saw the shit I was willing to do. It was all about the business. So if there was a pill that could make me center, I mean, that was the, you know, the time where, you know, size two was supposedly normal. I mean, it's all changed now, but I was, I mean, I was too huge.
3
01:28:18
I was only going to be able to get stage work. I was certainly too big for TV and I couldn't handle it because I had my own personal issues to deal with. So the best thing that happened to me was not having a career because I would have probably hurt myself because of, of what the business wanted you to do. And I was not strong enough, certainly not strong enough to counteract that. Yeah. Yeah.
2
01:28:48
And I think what boss and I both have essentially the same, I mean, for, not for the same reasons, but we had the same gratitude that we didn't kind of keep going full board at the time, because we wouldn't have been able to handle it if we had
3
01:29:03
Gotten success. Oh, yeah, yeah.
2
01:29:05
Yeah. When you hear about what
3
01:29:07
People have done, and one of the things I noticed, because I was going through infertility for a long time and operations and stuff is how many, how many women that quote unquote made it suddenly couldn't have kids because they, their, their, their, their whole thirties, their breeding time was eaten up with auditions and this and that. And, and, and, and whatever it is, the business calls for whatever level. Yeah.
1
01:29:37
It was a lot of like restricting and also treating their bodies really, really, really harshly. And then their body's like, Nope, we want a kid. Nope. Cause what, what, why would we participate in this? You know, but yeah, wow. I am the trauma, holy
2
01:29:57
The trauma. And just the, the way. And I mean, everybody probably could know the way that racism affects your ability to get cast. But what you're describing is just the whole life, just to be able to have a life living in a place where you'd have access to auditions was completely prohibited. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think people don't necessarily realize that about it is the way in which it's everywhere.
3
01:30:23
It's, it's horrible. And I don't know if it's, if it, if it opens up, I mean, now we have so many streaming services. There are so many opportunities for more people, but there, there seems to be just as much dysfunction. Oh, it's still garbagey still going. And it amazes me that anything ever gets done or anything ever gets produced. I can't imagine how, how it happens. There's just so much trash going on. And finally, thank God women are speaking up. It took a long time, a long time,
2
01:31:07
Seriously, a very long time. Well, we're going to have to end, but before we do, I want to say we, the three of us need to write a movie about this Toby caftan, Toby with, is that her name? Yeah.
1
01:31:25
Well, I also love the, the woman having an I'm having a nervous breakdown. Joycelyn Joycelyn
3
01:31:32
Bourbon mother turned meth runner turned drugs. Brilliant.
2
01:31:37
Actually you need to write a book. I mean, honestly, you just need to write a book because you've got such an amazing breadth of experience and it's all it's all about,
1
01:31:49
But acting in other ways and also also such a rich life filled with, but I don't know rich is the word, but I think a book is an order and should be called welcome to paradise. So
2
01:32:04
People can find you at Dawn, Vanessa brown.com, right?
3
01:32:07
Www dot Dawn, Vanessa brown.com.
2
01:32:20
If you liked what you heard today, please subscribe. Give us a five star rating and write a great review. I survived theater school. Is it undeniable and production of Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: Writing personally
Let Me Run This By You: What would you say to your inner child?
Interview: We talk to Ed Ryan about surviving two theatre schools, surviving 9/11, and interrupted grief.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? And I'm scared. Like, I think partially
1
00:00:34
This is this, the main character is based on me. Like all our character. I think every writer writes about themselves. I don't care what you say, aspects of themselves. So I'm like, man, would I do this stuff? Would I, how far would I go to people please? Like that? That is what I'm wrestling with. That is what is, is, how far do we go? And how far would I go to people please? Now I don't think I'd go that far, but people do go far.
2
00:00:59
People go far and feel like they're in a few state and feel like it wasn't them. That was making the choice. And, and I believe that I believe that that can happen. I also just think it's interesting in the lens of like, feeling, having felt for a long period of your life, that you weren't allowed to have certain emotions. It makes sense to me that you would be surprising yourself with where you can go in your imagination, but that would also lead to, you know, surprisingly like our, we had a conversation one time on here where I said, I don't feel like I've ever seen you angry. So, and you, you said you do get angry, but I just wonder if maybe there's just a lot of unexpressed anger and this is a great way to get it out.
1
00:01:42
Totally. And I, and I think you're right. I think you're right on. And so, and I also think, and I wonder how, you know, how you feel about the idea that writing, right? Somebody, I wonder if people write and I don't know how you write, but if people read, I mean, I know a little how you write, but if peop, if people can ever write fully devoid from their own person, you know, like, like where they don't put themselves in their characters or their, if they're writing, I guess maybe if you're writing non-fiction I don't know. But when you write, do you agree that like each part of you and every, oh yeah, 100%.
2
00:02:24
And I, I, in reading the Stephen King book about writing, you know, he, he realized like years after the fact about the way that he was writing himself in his stories, like, I guess famously and in misery, he is when he was at the height of drug addiction. And he, at the time he did not feel that he was writing the story about himself, but that's what it ended up being. Yeah. I mean, in part, just because like, how else would you do it? I mean, you only have your own as close as you can be to anybody else. What you really stuck with 24 7 is the ruminations in your own mind, the reactions to things, your worldview, your worldview is, is so people can recognize a lot of things about their worldview, but then there's all kinds of things about their own perspective that they would never think unless they had occasion to see it, contrast it with something else and say, oh, wow, I think about that really differently.
2
00:03:21
So anyway, I think it's cool. I think it's great that you're going there and I'm excited to see where it goes.
1
00:03:32
Let me run this by you. I started seeing, so I had a therapist that was this Orthodox Jewish man that I stopped seeing. It was just it. I always what I, you know, and it's so blatant at the time after, but during, during, I never see, like, I'm looking for like a father figure. And, and he started to say things that were, and it's all I'm on the phone, you know, but like he has six kids and he wanted to, he started saying things like, do you think that this is because you never had kids kind of like why my emotions?
2
00:04:13
And I said, you know,
1
00:04:15
I don't know it could be, but I, and you know, it was it's interesting. So I just had to say, you know what, I'm so-and-so, I think that I'm going to take a pause on this. I just don't feel that were, I was proud of myself. I said, I just don't feel like it's a good match right now for me, a good fit. I couldn't just say it's so funny. I have to qualify it. Like, I couldn't just say this isn't a good fit. I was like, not a fit right now for trying to soften that. Just ridiculous stuff, but that's how I did it. And yeah. And so I, I was like, okay, well, do I want to get another therapist? Or do I want to, so I do see like a coach, like, what do I want to do?
1
00:04:55
So I started seeing, I had a first session with a coach outside in a park. Who's a, she coaches, she does a lot of career coaching, but I just, like, I've known her for a while. And I liked her and we got to some interesting stuff like, you know, and you've said some stuff about like inner child stuff. Like I never really felt like I could connect with the idea of making peace or taking care of my inner child. And I couldn't understand why. And I think I got to the point where the reason I I'm afraid to things that my inner child will hurt me or that I will hurt it.
2
00:05:35
Her. Yeah.
1
00:05:37
So, so I thought I'd tell you about that.
2
00:05:41
Hurt you. Any idea what you mean by that? Like
1
00:05:44
Sabotage, like my inner child is so angry at the way that my parents, and then I have been treating her that she will fuck things up. Hm.
2
00:05:54
Yeah. By misbehaving. Yes.
1
00:05:57
Misbehaving sabotaging. So there's not a trust there. There's not a trust. And I wouldn't have ever, whenever I, in the various forms of therapy and schooling that I've done in this area, I always felt really, it's not even that I bristled with when we did inner child work. It's like, I thought, well, I don't even know this is weird. I don't even know what this is.
2
00:06:23
Yeah. I totally, I can totally relate. And I think I have had the same exact opinion, this very cynical sort of point of view. It all seems so I would just want to roll my eyes talking about inner child, but I think it's like that thing that I was telling you about when I did that thing on clubhouse and everybody was playing and I was just afraid of it. I think it's just that I think you learn to hide the parts of yourself that get you in trouble in the world for whatever reason. And then if there are parts of yourself that you first identify when you were very young, they're locked away. Good. They're locked away. Real good. And there's a real, I mean, just intense fear about going there.
2
00:07:07
And I guess like the best signal that I have about that is that every time I start to think about it or talking about it, I start to cry, which, okay, well, there's obviously a lot there. I, I don't believe, see my thing about it is like for a long time I did therapy. I did. I've I'll total in total. I've probably done therapy. I'm going to say for like 10 years between different therapists. I, it's not that I think I'm done. It's not, you know, it's not that I don't want to be in therapy. I, there are reasons that I'm not in it right now, but I just very quickly be talking about my childhood became like, okay, but I talked about it and now I'm just complaining.
2
00:07:56
Or, you know, now this is just, when are you going to get over? And that's the voice of like everybody in my family, like get over it. Everybody's everybody hurts. Like not even, not, not even everybody hurts, just like, get over it. You're your grownup. There's no time for that anymore. And I, that is the voice that I cannot quiet in my own head. So, whereas at one point in my life, I thought I had done all that. Cause I did 10 years of therapy. Now I realized I just never even approached it. I stuck with things that were more happening in my life now. Or like I would spend a lot of time like crying about my dad or whatever, but it wasn't like it's, you know, that was about him.
2
00:08:37
It was about me talking about him. It wasn't really about me talking about me because I think when I started talking about myself, that's when all the walls and defenses went up and I was like, you know, and I, and I couldn't do it. And Aaron has said to me, a number of times, like you've never really dealt with this stuff and I, and I've just been so incredulous, like, of course I have, I've done, I've dealt with it a ton, but I really haven't. I haven't, I've done like layers of it, but I haven't, I haven't done all the layers.
1
00:09:06
Yeah. And I, I could totally hear that and I can totally relate to not feeling, to feeling like I haven't really touched on it. And the reason I know that I haven't gotten to the core of sort of any inner child work is that yesterday when I was, when she had me doing an exercise outside in the park, like just trying to approach my inner child, the only way I could make contact with her was across a field with loud noise in the background with me yelling and her yelling back. So like not screaming at each other, but like there was, had to be a barrier. Like I couldn't the intimacy of approaching her straight on was too much.
1
00:09:46
So I was like, Hey, I'm over here. And she said, hi, I'm over there. And she was like, really suspicious of me and stuff. But I knew like, oh, I'm really having, I have a lot of trepidation about approaching this part of myself. And so I have to have a separation, like a barrier. It has to be, it has to be moderated. It can't be like, I can't just walk up to her. There's no way in hell. There's no way.
2
00:10:13
What's it. Like when you look at pictures of yourself, when you were really young, what did you think?
1
00:10:17
I feel like I don't even know who that person is. Yeah.
2
00:10:21
I have the same exact, whereas I know this just could be the difference between thinking about yourself and thinking about another person. When I look at even very, very young, young baby pictures of my kids, I think, oh yeah, their personality was there. You know, from the beginning, this is who they still are. And sometimes I'll share, I'll show them something and they'll say, you know, it seems like they kind of recognize. Yeah, that's me. Whereas I look at that person and I think, I mean, I've seen this picture before, but I, I have what, who is that per yeah, I've just have no idea. I think I, what I basically did, starting in theater school is just form a whole new set to start over.
2
00:11:05
I just formed a whole new identity. I was just like, not to the point that some people get like my sister where they tell everybody that our parents are dead. But to the point of just, yeah, I'm this person now. And you know, and I'm, and I'm done with that other person, whoever she was, I hated her no matter what. And of course the realization realization I have recently is no, but I still hate myself. So I really haven't a changed divorce. And I, and there's a, you can't walk away from who you are, you have, you have to.
1
00:11:37
Right. And, and, and I, I, my coach, Deanna, was like I said, I don't know who that person is. And she said, she's you, you just haven't integrated her yet. Like there it's you. And I was like, whole, I saw it as a separate sort of. So it's interesting. And she said, trauma, you know, we talked about neuroplasticity of the brain and trauma and, and how it's rewiring. Like, so, and she's like, I don't really believe in, well, I don't know if she said this, but I got, kind of got the feeling. She was like, she didn't really believe in mantras and all that, but she said, what happens? What do you start telling yourself when you are scared?
1
00:12:19
Or when you have an audition, that's scary. I say, I'm going to screw this up. That's my mantra. I'm going to somehow screw this up. I'm going to, she's like, all right, we have to cut that off immediately. She's like, I don't care what you say, but you can't say that to yourself anymore. So I was like, okay, what can I believe? Like, what can I get stand behind? Because I'm not going to say, oh, I'm the greatest actor and everything. No, no, no. I don't believe that. I don't believe that at all. But what I do believe it, I do have evidence to show in my heart and in my bones that things have that everything is happening at the time it's supposed to be happening. I do believe that I do. I can stand behind that. I can't say it's good. I can't say it's awesome, but I can say, so she said, all right, we're just going to go with that. So now, like, you know, I think, oh, what if I get a call back for this role I really want, and I know I'm going to fuck it up.
1
00:13:04
And I said, Nope, it's going to happen. If, if I do fuck it up, it's going to be, because it was the time to fuck it up. Like I have to believe in the timing of things, because I can't really believe in the goodness of things, is that, you know,
2
00:13:17
Right. And sort of similar to that is how I'm always just thinking in my mind that I'm just starting over at that. I'm always just putting the other the past behind me. It's, that's not you that you can't really do that. And, and it's all, it's every failure in every experience you go through every part and every iteration of yourself is a part of whatever it is now. It's not. So what's what this is making me think about is when I was in private practice, I became sort of known for treating really severe trauma cases. And so almost all of them had did.
2
00:13:58
And the technique for integration when a person has multiple selves and just for people who are listening, it's not like civil, civil, and bark, like a dog, whatever. It's really a lot more subtle than that. Now in severe cases, people have these few states where they go and they're just doing something else. I mean, I had, I had clients who would get themselves. They would go into a few state and then do terrible things that really dangerous, dangerous, terrible thing. But the technique is you have them all sit around a conference table.
2
00:14:38
You have, what's amazing to me is if, if you're talking to a person who suffers with us and they've never heard this technique before, they never go conference table, they go, okay. Yeah. They're, I mean, they're just immediately, oh, that's a good idea. They can all come together because of they're in their experience. They feel or see. And they all have very often, they all have different names and different ages and they have different things and they fight with each other about what they're doing. So I say, let's just do the conference table thing. Let's have everybody meet together and we can work on the agenda. But like the underwriting overriding thing has to be we, whatever we do, we want to do it United.
2
00:15:20
And what it gets tricky is when you're, you're not doing it United and everybody's, and that's the sabotage thing. That's what you get a lot of it. The sabotage thing is like this one is, and it's all because it was all a coping strategy for not being able to, you know, the parts of yourself that were rejected by whomever get shunned. They don't go away. They just get shunted off into another part of you. And it's funny because I really see a lot of my dysfunction feels splintered like that. Like I can say, I can click into a mode. That's happy, happy, and positive. And, but then if I'm not feeling happy and positive, then it's like, I'm not that person anymore.
2
00:16:03
I'm just this other sad, depressed person. Or sometimes I'm, you know, we all have it to some degree and I feel it a little too. It doesn't feel like different parts of me that have different names, but it still feels like it needs a lot more integrating.
1
00:16:18
Yes, I totally agree with that. And the other thing I worry about, and I think, and I, I don't know if you've ever worried. I worry that might the, that part of myself, the small, vulnerable, whatever, I would say five or six year old part of myself is going to disclose some, even more deep trauma happened.
2
00:16:38
Okay. There you go. That's probably exactly right.
1
00:16:41
And I don't want to, and I am like, I don't know if I can handle that. Like I, so she is the keeper of secrets of when I was young and who knows what the hell really went on. Like I could have been worse than I thought is the, is the, is the, is the overarching fear
2
00:16:59
I can see why you would be afraid then. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if I wonder if part of your way it is going to be instead of, or like in addition to fearing that is like, yeah, that's scary, but she needs help. She needs, yeah.
1
00:17:14
Yeah. That's what, that's what Deanna said too. It was like, yeah. She needs to be seen and heard. Yeah. And that's your way to freedom. And I was like, what? Because whenever someone says the way to freedom, like that interests me because freedom from such self doubt, freedom from such self-loathing or fear, you know, self like freedom from that seems amazing. So if someone tells me, you want to get free from this, you know, as long as they're not telling me some wackadoo stuff, but you, you want freedom from this thing, then it's going to take a certain amount of work. I'm like that, that I'm curious if I will do that word, which is just to say
2
00:17:58
To our listeners, that the experience of doing this podcast has people are always reporting to us. Oh, I've reconnected with people. I'm, I'm healing things and remembering things, but that's true for us too. And I have reconnected with people that I haven't spoken to in a number of years. And it's so gratifying. I mean, that, that's actually another piece of this disintegration thing is like the person I was when I was in theater school and the friends I had. And I just basically with the exception of you just moved on from that and never looked back and you know, these are people that I love that I loved then, and that, you know, as I'm reconnecting with them, I'm like, oh yeah, you're amazing.
2
00:18:48
And I'm just so grateful that we're having the opportunity to do this. I, this is what college reunions are meant to do, but they don't because it's kinda like one, you know, it's just, it's all because you just get through one layer of like, well, what do you look like? And what are you doing? As, you know, as an and, and I guess social media has changed that for people, like they get a better sense, but, but that's even, that is not the same as actually talking to somebody who you haven't talked to. And then now I'm like texting with people and it's fun. It's and then the other thing, which I've mentioned to you at least once before, but I'm still thinking about a lot is the people who I don't remember, but who remember me to me, that means I have just been so self absorbed that w that to, to a great degree.
2
00:19:43
When I think back about that time, I, I almost can only think about myself and how I felt about things and whether I was getting treated well, or, you know, instead of like the fact, I mean, I guess that's human, but I just feel like if there's somebody who remembers me, then there's a re then the reason that I don't remember them is not anything other than I was just paying only attention to myself. And I, and I have compassion for myself about it because I, you know, it was just doing the best I could, but I'm interested in going back and healing those riffs too, because I, I think that something happens that has happened to me over time is like, I was never the most popular or the least popular.
2
00:20:37
I was always in the middle, which meant that I ended up looking down on the people who were less popular than me and, and looking up to and resenting the people. So it was, I was just seeing everything in terms of like status status. Yeah. That's what it is. I have been entirely status obsessed in a way that is a complete surprise to me. I had no idea that I was status obsessed and it makes sense because that's how my parents are. That's how everybody, I mean, that's how a lot of people are. Why would I be unique? Why would I be exempt from
1
00:21:10
Them? Well, that's the thing. I mean, I think that we, that I get get, so I get so trapped in thinking I'm uniquely where I'm at, and that is garbage. I am a unique human because everyone is to a certain extent. And then we're all the freaking same. We're all worried about what we look like, what we sound like, who, what, what other people think of? What other people think of us and how we're coming off. And, you know, that's part of being human, but I think you're right. I think for me as well, when people remember things, I don't remember, people were like, yeah, we were friends and I'm thinking we were friends. And that is because I was too busy probably thinking about myself and what else I could do, or why it's, it's what they say in 12 step programs, really about self centered fear.
1
00:21:55
It's like, I'm so self-centered, and, and
2
00:21:59
She'll warm. I'm I'm shit, but I'm, but I'm
1
00:22:03
Yeah, shit. Or I'm the special warm and a, not a worker among workers, you know, like it's, it's, it's an interesting thing. And we come by and see the thing that's really also interesting to me is that we come by it, honestly, that is the part that I have to remember. It's that the people come by the shit, honestly, including me, I'm not so special that I don't come by it, honestly, it's not right. You know?
2
00:22:26
Yeah. I mean, right. Yeah. I think it is. It's completely amazing. I'm completely great. I, I'm an apropos of our conversation that we had a while ago about like constantly evaluating our progress. Like when I can get away from doing that, I'm just full of gratitude for, for, for what we're, what we've already done. Even if we never did it again after this, what we've already done has been so personally helpful. Yeah,
1
00:22:54
Me too. And I do see it as a way also as, as we move forward as artists, as a way of building allyship with people that I once looked at as not nemesis, maybe, but like as adversaries or doing better than me or doing worse than me, or now it's, it just seems more they're equal. Like I feel more equal with people and I think that's a better way to go, because the other way is like,
2
00:23:20
It's also just the truer way to go. Like, it's just a lie. We tell ourselves when we think we're so sped. It's like, okay. But I mean, among other things, it's simply a false,
1
00:23:31
Which is why, like, things like the like organized, like army and stuff works because you all get put in basic training and no one is better than the, there were, you're all lower, lowest on totem pole. And I think that builds some kind of comradery. And yeah. So anyway, I just, I just, I don't know why I was thinking about that, but I liked that idea.
2
00:23:55
I, I started to watch some of the showcase this year is DePaul theater school shows. I was just curious if you had seen any of them. I
1
00:24:07
Have seen it. And you know, it's interesting. I, the, the way that they filmed it, for the most part, it's the same camera shots, right. Of each I'm like, okay, okay. I think that we could have been a little more original with that, but I think they were trying to be equal to everybody and not quote you. And, and also
2
00:24:30
It's not a film school. I mean that, you know, I, I, for that reason, I give it a lot of credit because it's like, oh, wow. I wonder if somebody had been tasked doing that in our year. I'm, I'm not certain we would have gotten anywhere. It would've been
1
00:24:44
In video camera shaking and like, yeah, yeah,
2
00:24:47
Yeah. So it's cool. I'm happy for them that they have this. I mean, I'm happy for them that they have this access. It's probably has the same effect that it did when we did the in-person thing, which is like, not a lot, unless they're going to move to LA. But what I felt was interesting is looking at the acting and just remembering, like, talk about not being special. We all did bad acting in the same way, you know, which is to say not connected, not real, very, very self-monitoring of like, how is this coming across? You can see people thinking that, how is this coming across? Versus there was a few people who was like, oh no, they're in it.
2
00:25:29
They're totally there. They're there. It's just ed. And I say, this was so much compassion because I think probably the entire time I was just looking, I was just observing myself. I'm sure I did a terrible job. Yeah. And
1
00:25:41
I can see it too. And I, you, it sticks out when someone's really in it. And it is so hot. And we said this, and I, I think we've talked about this on the podcast. It's so hard to get there. It's hard to get, to stop the self-monitoring to be in the moment and just tell the story or be in the it's so hard. So what it happens and you see it, you're like, oh, that's gold, that's gold. And it's not to say that, you know, we all get there at different times and we have different moments of it, but yeah.
2
00:26:09
Yeah. What's hard to account for, I mean, you know, to a certain degree, there is only so much teaching that somebody can do of actors, because what you really need also is just these life experiences that either do, or don't lead you in the direction of really understanding yourself. And if you're a person who is not interested in understanding yourself, you're probably pretty limited as an actor or, or like, or maybe even very successful, but just that one, you know? Yeah. Right,
1
00:26:39
Right. You might, you might make a million dollars, but as we talked about it, that not equal being in the moment and being it truly like for me in an experience, just because you made a million dollars doing it does not. I, I is a recent, recent, recent discovery that worth and money are not necessarily the same. Oh my God. Oh my God.
2
00:27:04
Me too, girl. Me too. I'm just like, yeah, because actually there are other, I've heard the phrase. It's not always about money, but I really have never lived it. I have always been like, no, no, no. It's always
0
00:27:26
Today on the podcast, we're talking with Edward Ryan, Edward is someone who went to the theater school at DePaul university and then left and then went on to have many adventures and different incarnations as an artist and is still on that adventure. And he's thoughtful and kind. So please enjoy our conversation with Edward Ryan.
3
00:27:47
I was, I was a year below you guys. Okay. Okay. Okay. Edward,
2
00:27:52
Ryan, congratulations. You survived theater school. I did twice. Twice. Yeah, because you just went back a few years ago to get your degree. So tell us about
4
00:28:03
That. That was a very different, yeah. So you know what I did do some local theater, like a while ago I met a costumer and his name was Frank and he wound up teaching at a really small private school in Springfield, Massachusetts. And he's basically started a theater program there that's called American international college. And he said to me one day, like, how come you never finished your degree? He was like, give me your transcripts. And I, I, I got my transcripts. And he was like, you could be done in like a year and a half or two years and have a decree.
4
00:28:47
Well, I didn't know I was going to be so, you know, affected by, was it, it's a school that serves a lot of sort of underserved communities. So there's a lot of first-generation Americans, a lot of first-generation college students. And in contrast to a place like DePaul, although we complained about the building on north Kenmore, the facility, there's nothing. I mean, they have nothing, these kids and, but their like passion and their drive is really what you know is so inspirational, you know? And they're like, we can make theater out of anything, you know, out of nothing. And it was kind of a strange situation because Frank and I were very good friends, you know? So all of a sudden he was like my professor and I mostly had to do academic classes to graduate there.
4
00:29:33
You know, they took all my credits and I re I did a history of theater. I was like for like the third time, like all of, you know, this time I wasn't able to cheat. As I remember
2
00:29:46
Cheating, I did cheat, oh
4
00:29:48
My God. Anaconda make us, had every test that doc, whatever his name was, Jack O'Malley gave us. Oh, hilarious. And I've always been really studious, but like second year I was like, oh yeah. You know, give them up.
2
00:30:05
That's funny because I don't actually remember the cheating thing, but when Dave
4
00:30:20
Get the same test every year, year after year after year. And luckily I lived, I lived with second years. So it was like, and you know, and she had them all, like, she was a stage manager, dramaturgy, Jenna, all a file. I just had to go in every week and pull it out. Yeah.
2
00:30:35
I mean, are you the, one of the people who just got a brochure from DePaul and that's how you went
4
00:30:40
With, yeah. With this gesture on the front, I never went to visit the school. I auditioned in New York and it was, you know, I had applied to NYU and I had an audition set up, but their auditions for summer, I didn't audition at the same time. And it was like really late. And I applied to Providence college. That was, if I wanted to like go the more academic route, dammit. And I remember going for my audition and I, I like heard really quickly that I got into DePaul and I just decided I never even went on my audition for NYU.
4
00:31:21
I, I thought that the city would probably be a little too, you know, I was, I lived near the city. So it was like always my grandfather lived in the city and I thought that's going to be too much of a distraction, you know? And I really wanted to, you know, get an education. So I went to Chicago and I flew out and my parents drove all my stuff out.
2
00:31:42
What, like, what did you make of it? Day one. What was, where was your head at with it?
4
00:31:47
I was like, Chicago is so clean compared to New York. Yeah, it really is. I lived in Seton hall and I lived on the fourth floor in the corner room that was like ginormous with Cedric was Cedric steins was my roommate. And we had this other third roommate that we never liked. And then he got kicked out of the dorms, like halfway through the year. So we had this great big room and it was right above. I felt like the blues brothers, cause he looked at our window and they're like the El tracks by, but it was really close to taco burrito palace. Oh
2
00:32:24
My God. I forgot all about TVP. Okay. Well they have many, you know, there's like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. I think that one is actually still there.
4
00:32:39
That place like on a Friday or Saturday night was like, you couldn't get near it. And Rose's Tavern is like hole that the Mesopotamian woman who was like, let anybody drink. Okay. If you could walk, you choose giving
2
00:32:53
Toddlers shots of you guys
4
00:32:56
You'd be surprised. And there was some sort of characters in that joint. I mean, I remember like winding up at some apartment and being like, I shouldn't be here. What am I doing?
2
00:33:10
So, but you left, you left after your second year. Okay. And it was rough. You said you had a rough,
4
00:33:16
It was, I was, I was planning on living there. So I was living there for the summer. I was living with Cedric again and then Noel wrath. Yeah. And we were living like sort of west of everything, like up Armitage. It was like desolate. It was like this really weird apartment where I had the closet as my room. And I just remember like taking out the garbage, had to go out the back doors to this garage. And there was like this Harley biker who was always hanging out in there. I don't know if I was just like, this is where children get molested. I can't, you know, it was odd and Cedric left and he went to Africa, there was a trip to like Africa.
4
00:33:56
And I remember Susan Lee was on that trip because he was like, he called us and he was like, oh, I met Susan Lee and wait,
2
00:34:07
Susan Lee was just randomly in Africa with this girl. Don't you remember? That's when she came back and said to Erica, oh, I've got to teach you African dance. Okay.
4
00:34:18
But, you know, I really, I really want, I was like, you know, I was kind of shocked about it and you know, I think it was a lot for me to go there. You know, I'm the youngest of five. And then my mother had remarried and I have four step kids. So my parents had like nine kids under the age of like 30. And you know, financially that no matter how much money you make, I think it's, it's a burden. And I was really committed to like the theater school. And I didn't have a warning that was sort of, you know, productive. I remember going to Rick Murphy's office and not having any morning, my first year of going in and sitting down him being like, you're fine.
4
00:34:59
Get out of here. You know? And then my second year he was like, what the fuck is going on with you? You know? And he's like, what's up a tree Kessler. And I was like, I don't know if she hates me. And he was like, get your shit together or something like that, you know? But there was no like sort of actionable steps. And then when I left and asked back, I was like, wow. And you were talking about mushrooms. So for the first time I ate flushes and I wandered around Chicago and I found all these incredible places. I was like, oh my God, like a Paul said and all that. I was like input. And like I realized, I was like, in my own backyard, I thought I was lost. But I, you know, I have like some journal entries about Sundays are the best day in the world.
4
00:35:40
Everybody does what they want. Even God rested on Sunday. And it was so much fun. Yeah. All by myself, just wandering around the city. But you know, people were like, oh right. Speaking of that, I remember I was dying during Eric Slater's interview because we got a phone call at like 6:00 AM, one day at apartment two downstairs. And it was Eric and he was, he had been arrested. And it must've been when you guys were doing Andrew CLIs and the lion, because he was like walking home. It was really late. He was walking home from our house, I guess. And the cops stopped him and arrested him.
4
00:36:21
And we were like, he had to be like at the Merle reskin theater for this purport, like that morning. And I think we wound up calling John Bridges and it turns out they had just taken and he looked like a shady character.
3
00:36:38
I don't know. But I wanted to ask
2
00:36:43
Total digression, but I always thought in lineups, they got other criminal, like people that they know, they know and they can just random. Yeah. They get rent. I don't know about now. But you used to do this random ass people for lineups. Yeah. But the way you get them there is by arresting them. Well, I think you can, apparently in Chicago,
4
00:37:05
I think he was drunk. He was probably stumbling. Maybe he was like, had a few beers and they were just like, oh yeah, public drunkenness let's go. But that was like one of the funniest. And it was like the day that my mother called me late, it was like crisis. You know, we went into crisis mode and it was like, she got out her clipboard and like gave us all the assignments. And then my mother called me that morning and she was like, is everything all right? And I always thought, I was like, you know, my mom just says that like intuition, you know? And I was like, everything's fine. You know? Like, and I remember saying to her, I'm like, I think your psychic should always, so you're, you're saying, so
2
00:37:47
You didn't, it was, there was no, I mean, there was a warning without any information in it or
4
00:37:55
Yeah, there wasn't really anything specific, you know? And like I had truly Kessler my second year for voice and speech. And I had had Ruth's Rupert who you, she was there for a really short period of time. And then she left, she came back and she was like, oh, I got a contract. I'll be here next year. And then she came back like the next week and was like, I'm leaving. And she got a job at Yale and she went off to teach at Yale and she taught Christian Linklaters work. And then Trudy, our second year. And I was sort of excited to, I guess, first she taught LSAC and other things and was doing Linklater again.
4
00:38:37
So it was sort of like the same class again in a row. And I think Ruth was a really great Linklater teacher. And I don't know if I don't know Trudy and I just had something. I still tell, I, I S I'm still in contact with Ruth. She's my Alexander technique teacher now. And there was a 13 year gap in our relationship, but she'll always say like, oh, I'm going to this conference, Judy. I said, hi. You know, cause when I got my letter, it said that I had three absences from voice and speech.
4
00:39:18
And to this day I say, no, I didn't, I would have never done that. Like I was pretty committed. She, I had a full freedom, so I was born like tongue tie and she was like, I want you to go. I never had any speech issues, but she's like, I want you to go see this doctor. So I went to see this Dr. Bastion. And he was an ear nose and throat guy that worked with actors in Chicago. And he was like, oh my God, let me clip it. And he's like, I've never gotten to do it. And I was like, so it's a little thing underneath your tongue. So it's, it actually tells your tongue behind your bottom teeth. Like everybody's develops that way when you're pouring it recedes.
4
00:40:00
If you're not, they usually just clip it when you were born, but they never discovered mine. And so I wound up letting this doctor like do it. And then I had rehearsal for like my intro with Trudy. And I just remember meeting her in her office and her being like sticking her thumb in my mouth and being like, oh yeah, you have a significant overbite. Like, and just saying like, you know, you don't have a speech issue, but maybe if you got your tongue released, it would change your speech. You know, it's, I would love to see what it does. You know, I just felt like I was pretty committed to it. And David was my acting teacher second year.
4
00:40:40
And in David's class it was like, I could do no wrong. You know what I mean? I remember like almost hating it, like him being like some like, okay, you know, you critique each other's like scenes or improv or whatever you were doing. And he would say, so who saw what ed was doing? And somebody was critiquing it. And they were like, what are you? He was like, you know, what are you talking about? Like, he was like, he was fine. Like, he was like, my opinion is the only one that matters. So, you know, and just being like, okay, so now they hate,
3
00:41:14
I have to say I'm shocked that, you
2
00:41:16
Know, usually the story is that the second year acting teacher hates your guts and then you get cut. Like, that was my experience. Cause I was cut and then asked back crazy, crazy. But, but it's interesting that David, that thought you could do no wrong in your, as your acting teacher?
4
00:41:39
Well, it was really weird because I had David and first quarter I was in David's intro and he gave me a better grade in my intro. Then he did an acting class and I remember him saying to me, do you know why I did that? And me being like, yeah, like, and really having no clue. But I remember, I remember getting into a fight with him in that rehearsal for that intro and him saying something to being able to like, okay, well what, what, what do you want? And he was like, I don't know what, you know, just, you better try something else. Cause that's not working. Like he yelled at me and everybody was like, oh, and David and I used to take these, walks around the block at the theater school and have these little chats. And he was like, you know, he, he, he gave me every indication that he thought I was talented.
4
00:42:22
And then I remember my second year of him saying to me, do you really want to be here for another two years? And I was like, well, yeah, you know, I really want a degree. And he was like, what are you going to get out of us Shakespeare classes? And I remember, and I was like, oh. And then I remember telling him about my issues with Trudy and him being like, you know, Trudy he's like, I'm the head of the voice and speech, which I didn't even didn't really even know at the time, you know, it was odd to me that he was, and, and then, but then he gave me, but then he gave me a bad grade, like enacting class. And so it was sort of like this. I was like, what the fuck?
4
00:43:02
Like what, you know? And I just, you know, and then in my intros I was always like a middle-aged alcoholic. Like every single one, you know, or that I was like the alcoholic vicar in that horrible, a farce that thought it'll coat did where my, like I walked in the room in my pants, you know? And Corpus, yeah. It was like, first of all, farce is tough. You know, it's a tough, and for some reason they thought, you know, I heard this a lot about our class. Like, oh, these guys could do it. Like they could graph it. Well, guess what we couldn't and it fucking sucked. It was just like Riddick.
4
00:43:43
I was like, Betty Hill, is that what I'm doing? Like, it was just like, it, it,
2
00:43:50
It, it's hard to be funny care, but like the experience it makes you funny
4
00:43:59
Is that I remember seeing David's like intro second quarter. It was like bomb and Gilliad. And I was like, why don't I get to play one of these like transvestite hookers? Like I can do that. And then it just wasn't, it, it was like the autumn garden, my last one. And again, it was like, I mean, Eric Yancey, I drink so much peach tea my second year of, cause the dining room was my first one. And it was like all of these like waspy, you know, I played like one little boy, that's the scene. We, we, we sorta had a yelling match about, but it was so I don't know. I mean, I was, I was, I remember Noel being like I got in and you didn't.
4
00:44:43
I was just like, I didn't really, the thing was, I thought they stopped going to New York for the, I didn't ever have a desire to be on television or in the movies I wanted to be in the theater. And I went to the theater school and I sort of saw that transitioning transition happening. It was kind of like, I have no desire to live in LA. I just think it's like the new years and fake foods. Like, that's all I could think of when I'm thinking of LA. Like it was a desert, everything there is artificial. Like every, every blade of grass is like planted. I don't know. And I thought I was okay with it for a while. Cause when I moved home and my stepfather died kind of suddenly like that summer and you know, it was one of those things like, okay, everything happens for a reason, you know, it's really hard.
4
00:45:34
Yeah. My mom, my father had passed away, but he was sick for a really long time. And so I think she was like prepared for that and she wasn't really prepared for my stepfather dying. And so I was okay with it for a long time, but I really, till recently we realized like, I think it really, you know, I remember somebody calling me and asking me to do it a play and not wanting to do it because I had to a lot of musical theater. And I was like, when I did the first play, I was like, wow, musical series is so hard. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, you know, I sang a lot, but I was like, I hate singing.
4
00:46:14
You know, I really don't even like it. And I just, so I, you know, I never saw myself as any Shakespeare characters. Like I was like, you know, I had to read every male part in high school and English class. I read every like male part while the teacher read every female part. And I was like, I hate Shakespeare. Maybe this isn't the place for me. What was disappointing about it is that I wanted it to agree, you know? And I was a good student and I think that my circumstance, this is just sort of allowed me to sort of flounder a bit and not really have a, a footing, not really have any direction, you know?
4
00:47:01
So I had some great mentors and I did do some more things and, but very little. And then I moved to New York and it was really not about that. You know, it was about just see what else was out there. I just excited. I was like, okay, I'm moving to New York. And I had worked for J crew for a couple of years and I had left and I called them up. It was like a move to the city. I needed a job and they gave me a job and I started going out in the city. Somebody took me to a nightclub and it was like the first time ever. I was like, you know, we would go see, I, I saw the last grateful dead show in Chicago.
4
00:47:45
Like we went to fish, meaner Bana when we were out there. And when I went into this like sort of world of these nightclubs and sort of saw all of these like characters that were present, I sort of became one. You know, I was, it was like my job to go out and, and have fun in sort of a clown. And it was, it was an interesting time in my life. I like to call it the turn of the last century, but it was like from, so I guess I, I moved to the city from like 98 till 2000, or I guess it was 99 till 2003 is when I moved here.
4
00:48:37
So I was there for about four years, you know, I worked at the world trade center that was, you know, and I think that compounded things. And I think it sort of made me realize that I was having a lot of fun in New York. You know, I had this, I had great roommates. We had a great loft in Brooklyn, these crazy parties that were like before Brooklyn was cool. I say like, we've priced ourselves out of it. You know, we made it cool. And then, but it was nothing I could sustain or really even monetize.
4
00:49:20
You know, there was always like the job that I had to maintain to with, I really had no desire to do theater and I didn't for about another 10 years till I moved here. And, and I was okay with that, you know, I was sort of working in retail and I realized, you know, later that the whole going out and becoming this like character, which I didn't really think I was doing at the time, but I really was, you know, doing things that I'd never done before, or, you know, even these parties were like insane.
4
00:50:02
We would like wear like Russian military uniforms and have 200 people in a Japanese go-go band at our house and fill up, we would like fill up kiddie pools with water. We had a great space. And so we did, and I lived with a caricature artist and all these kids from Vassar and it was just, you know, we'd get like a sitar player and, and have like an opium den. And I just
2
00:50:40
Have a question I have to go back to, what was your character like? What was your, your nightclub character? Sure.
4
00:50:48
So I always joke that I looked like, like huckleberry Finn, you know, I was working for J crew, but I was, I was just myself, you know, I, I would, I had my baseball cap and I had this baseball cap that said ack, which is actually the three letter code for new work airport. And I'm sorry for Nantucket airport. My initials are the Newark airport and people. And so ack people. And I would like, have my pants rolled up different, you know, I worked for J crew. So I was like a walking, like, you know, the J crew like twist that, how it used to be pants rolled up at different lengths and like maybe, or I'd wear like a crusher hat or something.
4
00:51:29
And I'd get in line with these people who were like going to bang, bang, and buying their like, you know, tight leather pants and stuff. And it just became like this. I was, you know, I was kind of like a quirky, you know, I dressed, I danced a little funny. I, I attribute movement to music to that. You know, I sort of just followed these impulses that had me sort of stomping my feet a lot. And I danced with my face a lot and I would show up with like a big bunch of gerbera daisies and a couple inflatable sunshines.
4
00:52:08
And, you know, I had one friend Franco, who's the only person that I ever went out with. I could always go out by myself and, you know, leave by myself. And I would just, you know, do these fun things. Like, you know, I wrote like a Valentine to the world and like, you know, we put on red paper and pass it out to everybody. Or we would, we'd bring junior mints to junior, was the DJ and pass them out to everybody. Yeah. And people, you know, I was talking about the hat. People would say like, like, what does ack stand for? What does ack stand for? And I got, you know, and that goes to the three letter code for Newark airport.
4
00:52:52
And I got so sick of it. I started this thing, like the hairball remover that Cass asked for by name, you know, like, and I didn't really, I never, you know, I still sort of felt like I didn't belong there. You know, it was kind of like this secret thing, but you know, you cold places all the time. And then people start, you know, recognizing you and, you know, you start like getting in for free or, you know, and I found these places where it just seemed, I was appreciated, you know, people would, and I met a lot of such interesting people. I mean, everybody from people who were, you know, Sharman to, there was some pretty, you know, crazy shenanigans that went on, you know, at the time.
4
00:53:44
And some people that, I mean, everyone from Tonya Harding and then it comes out and she was interesting to me, but that's like the funniest story I ever time, I let her Newport cigarette for her. Like I do the Catholics, I would see it. Evan am, you know? Okay.
2
00:54:01
So I'm just, there's like a theme here, which is that you went to the theater school for two years, and then all of a sudden you had to leave while you might have otherwise been processing your grief about that. You had to go all of a sudden process with your mom because she lost her second husband. And then you moved to New York to get that life going. And then nine 11 happened and you were working at the world trade center. So you have had major Griffis interruptus.
4
00:54:36
It's true. Yeah. I, I think, and, and, and I've recognized in my life that I have a hard time, like getting things done that are in my normal routine. Like say, like getting my car inspected, you know, it's like once a year and it's like, whoa, you know, so when things like that happen, it takes me a long time to regroup. And you know, I'm not gonna, you know, sit here and say that I'm, that it, you know, these things like ruined my life in any way, shape or form, you know, I I'm, I'm so lucky that I, you know, I've been in the circumstances that I've been in and that I have a great family and that, you know, I always had a bit of a safety net.
4
00:55:25
Not like some people, like, I didn't really have a safety net. Like I felt like in New York, I couldn't do theater because I wasn't independently wealthy. And I, and there was just no place to, you know, you really, it just doesn't exist anymore. You know, if you notice people who go to New York and become directors and, you know, actors are either, you know, inherit that position. I have
2
00:55:52
Another way of making money, even though even this Celia Keenan Bolger's of the world. I mean, it is, you cannot, you cannot make a living, even if you're on Broadway.
4
00:56:04
Right. It's true. You know, and it's, and it just became, I just became disenchanted with it. You know, I was like, I mean, I still love the theater, you know? And I was, like I said, I was really lucky. I had, you guys were talking about those monologue books, know like Jocelyn Baird is the woman who edited all of those books, which I didn't know, but she was someone who I did theater with when I was like in high school, she's who she picked my audition monologues. And she, you know, I'm still in contact with her. She's a playwright. And she went to Yale. She coaches kids on how to get into programs now, stuff that I was like, what is my brand, that kind of thing.
4
00:56:54
But it's like, I, commercial theater I guess, was exciting to me in a certain way, but it was, you know, it was other theater that I liked too. And I don't think it was just theater. I think it was just art, you know? And I think it was like art in life is what I've discovered. You know, like everything is art, you can make anything artistic. And I think that's kind of what I do. I just haven't shaped it in a way, like, I need to write a book.
2
00:57:28
You haven't been able to shape it because you've had suspend a lot of time in reaction mode, you know, to various losses
4
00:57:35
That, yeah, like the whole nine 11 thing. I, you know, I remember, I didn't tell anyone that for years, you know, it was just something that, I mean, my friends knew there was, there was an Edward Ryan who died that day, who was from Westchester and star. And so there were people like my old boss, Alyssa, who was a harpist and a composer who I worked for as a personal assistant. And, you know, she just heard like names bred off. She knew that's where I worked. You know, we didn't have very few people had cell phones. I ran into one of her three sons and he was like, we got to call my mother.
4
00:58:16
I was like, she literally was, she was afraid to call my mom. She was like, that was the only contact number I had for you is your house phone. And I didn't want to upset her. And I was like, oh my God. I just thought I was Ted. I, I will, could been, you know, it was, yeah, it was, it was a rough, it was a rough day, you know, I've had better. And it was my first day back after like 10 days of vacation. And we opened, there was a mall in the building six where the big divot down to the path, trains wound up, you know, the, the second tower that fell.
4
00:58:58
And luckily, you know, we were really lucky. We, I, we locked ourselves in at first. I mean, we didn't have any sort of clue what was going on, you know, when you were sort of in it, even it wasn't until we got to the Seaport that we realized that there was planes being flown into the building. You know, I was like, we heard the second plane and we crossed the street and we saw the second building on fire. But at that point we thought somebody was like dropping bombs or shooting missile. You know, we couldn't, you know, come up with the, the idea of someone flying planes into the building. And, and I was like, you know, what do I, what do we do?
4
00:59:41
You know, I was like, we're dead. And I was all right with it actually, you know, it was a, it was a strange feeling, but I was like, I'm okay with that. Like, I'm not going to spend my last moments here, screaming, yelling, running, like, you know, there's like this peacefulness about it. And I remember my nephew had been born, my sister's second son who lives here and I had never met him. And so that was the only like little thing I thought about as a regret. And then luckily we were okay, you know, and it was a long, you know, process of sort of also from my loft, I could see this, you know, smoke stack for the next, you know, three weeks.
4
01:00:29
And I, even that day, I didn't really process anything until I got to a friend's house. And I, I, they were all there watching the news and I laid down behind them. They were like sitting in my futon and I like fell asleep. My adrenaline like finally ran out and then I woke up and I went home to my loft and the two girls that lived there, Lily and Rebecca were there and they just like grabbed me. And I don't think I stopped crying for like two days. Like I didn't leave the house. I didn't do anything. You know, I talked to my mother, but it was sort of like I was at work.
4
01:01:09
So it was like, you know, and I was responsible for other people. And I, I felt like I also have to advocate for those people in the moment, you know, where they were like, oh, you know, well, you can come work at, you know, fifth avenue that day. And I was like, yeah, they're not going to work anywhere today. You know? And it was so I didn't tell anybody because people's reactions were so strong and I didn't want to like tell the story all the time, you know? And so I just didn't tell anybody for a long time. And I realized when I did that, it was actually helpful, you know, to talk about it and to talk about the, the impact of it.
4
01:01:54
And I think that it, you know, made me a little more, maybe maybe careless or in a living, but also really living like really living, you know, in the moment, you know, and knowing what that meant, nothing like a little, you know, little flying a plane into your buildings to wake you up. Yeah. Yeah. So that was
2
01:02:22
Yet the third or the fourth thing, which is that you graduated from school three years ago. I don't know if you were what you were planning to do when you left, but then the pandemic happened.
4
01:02:34
Oh yeah. Not even three years ago. It was a year ago. Oh, that's when you were done was a year ago. Yeah, it was may. I went back to school in 2000, I guess it was 2019. I went for, so I got a bachelor's degree, but I went to Nepal for two years and I went there for a year and a half. So I somehow finished a four year degree in three and a half years, but yeah, I had enough credits. So I was like, bye. And yeah, I was stage managing for them a production. They were doing a little shop of horrors, which was really interesting stage managing and just sort of doing everything for them, for these kids. And I felt so terrible for them.
4
01:03:14
And I mean, everything is still there. Like all the props we made, everything is just, I keep thinking of the Titanic it's frozen in time because they decided that even in spring, they were going to be fully remote because they didn't, they didn't think it was fair to leave it to the last minute to decide they wanted people to be able to kiss those sort of ducks in a row and, and know what to expect. Cause I think that was really one of the hardest things on any students or kids during the whole pandemic was like every, you know, the, from month to month, they didn't know what was coming next. You know?
2
01:03:49
I mean, I kind of feel like that's how I had spent sort of the stopping and starting of Edward Ryan you've sort of stopped and started and stopped and started. And, and now you, you, you started school, you finished school and you were, and so the kids too, but also you stopping and starting. Yeah.
4
01:04:07
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that, you know, I have a little more, I have some more skills to deal with it. You know, I have a little more, it's like my work at school, you know, just cultivating creativity with this class that really affected me and sort of made me realize that I was more than just a theater artist probably. And do you remember those photographs in the like nineties of like different, like the Beastie boys are run DMC and they were on the rooftops of buildings. So this guy, John Nardell was that photographer. He worked for all these different it's, he's not the person you would expect to be taking photographs, but he was a teacher at the school and he taught this class and this class is so annoying.
4
01:04:55
Like it's going to really drive me crazy. And all the kids were really like, he railed against like every assignment does a lot of work and we weren't allowed to buy anything. We had to make everything. And, you know, he gave us a lot of art supplies, but we had to like build vessels to like carry them in and incorporate every handout somehow creatively into this, into this book. And I mean, it was a lot of work and I would, I stay up till three o'clock in the morning, like, you know, making these things and doing the stuff. And he was like, you know, your work is like, incredible it's so it's, it's so much beyond, you know, what were some of the kids are doing here?
4
01:05:36
And I was like, well, it shouldn't be, you know, like I have a little, few more resources than they have in their dorm and, you know, but, but the kids too, they were sometimes inspired in that to, you know, these kids to inspire them was like such a, a great thing because they were, so some of them were so disenchanted. And by the end of this class, you could just see that they had all found like what they were good at, like what sort of creative, artistic thing that they really connected with and that they loved and that they were just excelling in. And it was so exciting. Like it was really a, it was a great class.
4
01:06:18
I
2
01:06:18
Love that it was called cultivating creativity.
4
01:06:21
Yeah. Good class. And I mean, you know, we either studied artists or, or, or techniques from Zen, Zen, Zen doodle, or
2
01:06:35
Zen doodle. Yeah. There's
4
01:06:36
Dan tangles. Yeah. Like he was a Venn tangle instructor. So, you know, we started with that. We did, like, we studied like in Stein and like, it is like sort of pop flags. And we each took a, a country. We were assigned to country and their flag and we, you know, created, you know, work from that. It was a really a great class, but hard, you know, these kids were not used to being asked to do to actually like work. I mean, the school itself knows who their students are. I think a lot of them have, you know, different accommodations and different, you know, struggles or opportunities.
4
01:07:18
And, you know, they come from, like I said, an underserved communities and places, and it's like one of those places where, you know, if like Frank, the guy who ran the program was like, I couldn't let, just kidnapped graduate, you know, you know, like there's no way. And you know, whether it's paying his tuition bill or, you know, or raising money, whatever needs to happen. And, and, you know, he got me ready and Frank got me writing again. I directed, I took a directing class, which was a great read life, you know, so great books.
4
01:08:01
And it was fun. You know, I really sort of was inspired to just be creative. And I looked at some MFA programs and I auditioned at Yale and I, I think I realized I did not get in, but I realized before that, that I, and Ruth was like, do you really want to go there? And I was like, you know, it's yeah. You know, and she's like, Hmm. And when I went there, I realized what she meant it, like, first of all, it's a shithole about bad facilities, you know, while you're waiting in an old computer lab with like broken computers, stacked in the corner, going this girl from West Virginia, she was a young girls high. And from what I was like, oh, this is what you thought. Yeah. You know, and I sort of felt like they had given the keys, you know, it was like the opposite of the theater school.
4
01:08:48
It was like the kids were running that place. I mean, they held all the power and I think it's, it's sort of the way things are going these days, you know, with the me too movement teachers are one of the teachers at Yale said we are the only teachers that have to teach our students naked sometimes. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? We are the only teachers that have to teach their students naked. Sometimes
2
01:09:15
The students are naked or the teachers are the students. What for, for zoom? I mean, on zoom, they're naked.
4
01:09:21
No. I mean just different productions where, you know, they are directing a student who is nude and that's why there's intimacy coaches and all of that now, you know, to protect them. Because I mean, you can obviously see working in close proximity with a naked student that could open you up to problems, say like at the school, like what did Kat call it a spontaneous sex of study naps. I mean, there was a loud groping and touching going on that was like, you know, probably, you know, innocent, but you know, could certainly have been a trigger for some people. Sure. You know, like Trudy shoving her thumb in my mouth.
4
01:10:03
Yeah. Not good. Not good. Yeah. So that was the day I had three, sorry, three absences. And I was, and I, myself use was damaged by habitual use was the other thing on my letter when I got cut from the theater school, self use was debt is damaged by habitual. You understand what that means? Well, neither did I. I mean, but as I think at that age, I just thought, well, I'm damaged.
2
01:10:31
I also can tell you that Rick Murphy, when we were doing set, a very similar thing that David said to you, so I'm doing space work. Rick comes up to me, whispers in my ear. What are you doing? Drop out and go see the world.
4
01:10:48
Yeah.
2
01:10:49
And I'm like, I'm like doing work first year, second year. I don't remember. He whispered in my ear, why are you here? Go, go see the world or something. And I was like, what is happening?
4
01:11:02
You know, I loved Rick Murphy. I mean, he was just like magic, right? I mean, this is not a pipe dream was like, so in captivity it was called freewill and one lust back then. And that was the other thing I wanted to tell you
2
01:11:20
That it changed names. Oh no, no, no. But those are two different plays raised in captivity, but
4
01:11:26
They put the monologues from this act to of freewill and what, and less are in raising it. Yeah.
2
01:11:34
They are because I did, I think I did one, I did one for my showcase,
4
01:11:39
Those huge ass monologues about spitting on the sidewalk and about the conversations with his penis, you know, and like, don't touch me. Yeah. I was like watching that because I loved that show. Then Nick bowling did, and I took my stepfather to see it. He came into the theater school. It was like the only thing they ever at the theater school, you know, who was in the Tutu? Yes. Somebody like was there,
2
01:12:03
I think it was Susan Olier wasn't it. Or wait,
3
01:12:08
No,
2
01:12:09
Susan Bennett. It was Susan Bennett. Cause she, she we're sh we're going to be talking to her and she wrote me something. And it said something about the show.
4
01:12:19
Yeah. Yeah. I just remember her saying like after a while scotch tastes just like pudding, you know, and just being like, you know, that show is just a lot to digest, but I just thought like Nick bowling was so talented. I mean, I also, my other crew assignment was besides landscape of the body, which, I mean, I remember John, so that was a fuck. I have a funny story about that too, but was LaVey his own digital roots was his other workshop and Jason Beck and I were co stage managers and we had to wear like full power, you know, the white wigs with the curls and the high heels and like the fricking outfit.
4
01:13:02
And then he needed somebody to play the major Domo who doesn't really have any lines. And I just stood on that stage for the entire show, like just stood there and did nothing. But, but you know, I, it was, it was a great experience. I mean, that's where I really, Kat is somebody who was really nice to me. That's a theater school and like, you know, we sort of reconnected and, and Sarah Sharp, our too, I remember being like at a gala, how did you not go to one of the gals? You know? Yeah.
2
01:13:37
I never, I, I don't know anything about that.
4
01:13:40
Fuck that I'm not going. No, no, it was never
2
01:13:42
Invited. I mean, not everybody. When we had to go
3
01:13:46
To you,
2
01:13:47
You were invited to go, I think you were invited to chaperone a star, which is what I chaperoned Edward James almost. But then I don't remember anything else about that.
4
01:13:57
They made us go and we had to, we held like balloons or something where they wa when they left the Blackstone hotel and they went to the real rest in theater, we made like blind, like, I don't know we held balloons or something. They'd like they walked through or whatever, because I remember Sarah Sharp. I told her this too. I, after I saw her episode, I sent her a message. And she was like, yeah, I read that breakdown. And I was like, there was a bunch of older people. You guys were up to something and you were like, you're coming with us. And we were, you know, bad little kitty. She was like a real classy. But I remember sitting in the green room and getting somebody coming down and screaming at us because somebody was smoking marijuana. And like in cold storage, like they could smell the smoke. And we were all like, nobody did anything.
4
01:14:38
And I, I swear to God, it was Gregory.
3
01:14:42
Oh,
4
01:14:44
That's not like him coming out and be like, I heard you guys got in trouble. And we were like, he asked her to, I remember being so excited, so excited to see Melinda Dylan because of, you know, a Christmas story, the mother. And she came out and she was her character in print in prince of tides. Like, she was like, hi, I'm Linda Dylan. I took too much medication today. Like, it was just like being so in, in it realizing I'm like, oh, these people are just regular people, you know? So
2
01:15:18
Wait, so did the, Al has the Alexander technique helped you with healing or what's, what's your interest in it?
4
01:15:26
So I, you know, I, I contacted Ruth because I, when I decided to do theater again, I did a musical and the musical is Falsettos, which is a very small cast and a lot of singing. And I was like, I hadn't sang in a long time and I just wanted to get my voice in shape. So I think Linklater always, you know, helped with singing as well. And I found Ruth and I went, I always say she hijacked my lessons and turn them into Alexander technique lessons. And, you know, I certainly found it really useful. I remember working on the play abundance and, you know, I did a lot of character work and you move from a rehearsal space into a performance space.
4
01:16:13
And all of a sudden, you know, the soft spoken guy, they were like, yeah, it's not working in here. We can't hear you. And I, I just remember like him saying to me, coming out and doing whatever scene again, and him being like, that was great. What the hell did you do? You know? And I just remember like thinking, okay, you know, Alexander work and inhibiting and directing and sort of trusting that it would work. And I think that's some of the work, but she also did some workshops. And, you know, they had, Christine Stevens is another teacher who was teaching at brown Trinity rep.
4
01:16:54
And they asked me to do some Shakespeare texts. Her and her husband had found like a local Shakespeare, Shakespeare, a Hampshire Shakespeare. And they weren't really involved anymore, but they were like, oh, you should go to those auditions. And I was like, I hate Shakespeare, you know? And I've, I did, that's where I met Frank. He was the costumer and I take Trinculo and the Tempus there. And it was a part I really liked. And it was like a lot of fun. And I was like, oh, wow. I still am not sure what the 10th is about, but nobody really, I was like, did they help that the prosper would forget like paragraphs of his like lines in the show? And I was like, well, I can't play with this a lot, but yeah.
4
01:17:34
And there was a training center here. So Missy vineyard, who has written some really great books and she had a training center and that's where Ruth trained. And I was also, you know, I also worked with Missy some and was sometimes spotty at her lessons with Missy and yeah. You know, working in retail a lot, being on my feet all day. I had a lot of I'd get up in the morning and my heels would really hurt. I had a lot of lower back pain. A lot of that stuff has sort of gone away, you know, subsided. And I think a lot of it has to do with the Alexander technique.
4
01:18:14
I mean, it's just, it really can help in every aspect of your life. I just feel better. I always, you know, I always, when I'm late, you know, driving there, I was describing it as like going to my Alexander lesson and, you know, someone slams on the brakes in front of me and I'm like, oh God, you know? And like, on the way home, if somebody slams on their brakes in front of me, I'm like, all right, let's, you know, my brain can like keep going. You know? It's like, yeah, it just helps
2
01:18:39
Julie. We have to end. And I have a hard out cause I have a another meeting, but this is, I, I, I really hard stop. I so enjoy this conversation. I wish we could go on. Thank you so much for taking the time
4
01:18:56
You guys, your podcasts. I just have to say it's really, and I've heard other people say it too. It's really helped me like put things in perspective. Like, you know, validate a lot of things that I felt in, in. I really, really from the bottom of my heart, I thank you. It's been it's it's really been great
0
01:19:24
Next week on ICER by theater school, we talked to Don Vanessa brown. If you liked what you heard today, please subscribe. Give us a five star rating and write a great review. I survived theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina bleachy are the cohost. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Polizzi. For more information about us, you can go to our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thanks.
Intro: songwriting
Let Me Run This By You: The fatal weight of expectations, intentional mourning, Roadmap Writers,
Interview: We talk to Nasma Toukan
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I figured. I feel like I don't know what day it is. I
1
00:00:32
Know I'm sure. I'm sure I don't know what I'm doing yet.
2
00:00:39
And part
1
00:00:39
Of what's made it even weird is that for whatever reason, I, when I was setting up my kids a day camps for
2
00:00:49
The summer, I
1
00:00:51
Failed to realize that this week two of them are in opposite directions each one hour away from my house. So I've been spending like six hours a day driving.
3
00:01:07
Oh my God.
1
00:01:10
Yeah. Now the good part, because I was like trying to take advantage to the best of my ability of the time is I started to write
2
00:01:22
Some songs. I've always
1
00:01:26
Really been interested in writing songs and I've written a few, but I don't play music. I don't know anything about like writing music. So I'm like, so I'm trying to work with my family who are mostly all musicians to get like, to, to, to collaborate. So
3
00:01:50
Are you all writing songs while you drive the kids or is that what's happening?
1
00:01:55
Yeah. Well, I am just sort of like thinking through themes and, and ideas and how, what I really love about good songwriting, modern good song writing is how it can vary up the cadence. My tendency is to be like,
2
00:02:30
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's something new to try.
3
00:02:34
So speaking of songs, I went for the first time to a rock show in two years, yea. So Bexley was playing and I'm not managing them, which is good, which is good. They need, they need, I just think they need someone who knows and has a little bit more, well, one, they didn't really want me to, they were like, you're a, like, I am helping, I'm helping I'm being a helper, but, but anyways, so I went to their show and it was three bands and Bexley was playing last.
3
00:03:14
And so I haven't been out as past 10:00 PM in maybe, you know, out past 11 actually in like years. So anyway, we went to this venue and in LA, like the arts district kind of downtown and we help sell their t-shirts, which was really miles. My husband and I did, and which was really fun. But what I noticed was, you know, the amount of, I haven't performed in so long, so long. So I used to perform at like mostly reading my writing or in a play or whatever, like we know, but I haven't done that. So that was really interesting to watch.
3
00:03:54
I was like, oh, I missed that. I missed that. But the other thing, bringing it to the song stuff is that, like, I just have so much respect for artists that perform in front of other people that saying, and I mean, it is, I always, I forgot because I haven't because of the pandemic and I haven't seen it for so long and I haven't been to live music in so long, but I'm like, this is just like magic that this even can happen at all. That four people on a stage can, can come together, memorize play the same thing with a lot of energy it's loud, it's it was just really beautiful to watch, but it also was like, wow, this is I'm, I'm sort of become really interested in like, what does it take to, to have a good song, like, or a good writing or good whatever.
3
00:04:42
Like what makes, what is the magic that makes a song really work or a piece of writing really work, you know? And I don't know what that is, but I, you know, it when you see it, you know, it's undeniable
1
00:04:56
And my, my new barometer for everything is just based on this advice. I got, it was advice. I w it was not, if I, somebody was giving me advice, I absorbed somehow. Okay. Which is simply that I think I've said on the podcast before, if you have heard it before, then don't write that,
2
00:05:21
Write that thing that you
1
00:05:24
Haven't heard. Right. Because it's so easy, you've listened to 10 million songs in your life. It's so easy to sit down and be like, okay, well, songs usually go like this. I mean, I'm not talking about the structure. I just mean if it's, if it's, if there's too much, oh, this is like this song, this song, this song, and this song, then, then that means you don't really have something unique to say, and you, but there is something unique in there. You just have to figure out what it is. Well,
3
00:05:49
That's, I think you're right. I think that it is same with writing, right? It's like, what is your take on this theme? Like you were talking about themes. That is all, oh, and I was talking to someone else and saying like, why you, why now, why this? Right. So like, that's what really, what I'm asking myself about everything that I'm doing. And, and then when I talk to like younger people or people that I may be mentoring in some way, I'm like, we got to get really clear on why, why you, why now, why this piece, why this project, why this thing? And it's like, those are really important questions to ask. And I don't ask myself enough.
1
00:06:32
Yeah, for sure. It's yeah. It's hard because sometimes you just start writing something that means something to you personally, and something could be excellent Lee written and very personal to you. But if it's not providing something to the culture, then there may not be a place for it right
3
00:06:50
Now. Not right now, not right now. You know? And, and it's just interesting. Or, or take the, take the note too, for me of like really ho then honing it in. Why now? Why, what, and then tweaking it based on that. But then you, on the other hand, you have a lot of shit that gets made that shouldn't be made right now. So I, I mean, there's no steadfast rule, but I think, but I think when in doubt, ask those questions of myself and then it'll, it can only make, it can only make the thing better. Yeah,
1
00:07:23
Absolutely. Absolutely. I will have to say in case we have, I know we do have, you know, faithful listeners who listened to every episode. It has not been three years since you've been out that late. You were out that late recently when you went to your class reunion. Oh, you are right.
3
00:07:40
The faithful you're right. You're right. Yeah. I was
2
00:07:42
Out really late somebody. Cause that's what I do
1
00:07:45
When I listen to podcasts. If, when I find, when there's something that they're saying, Nope, that's not true. Let me run this by you. I mean, so last time we talked, I told, told you all about the, what's the word for it? The story of the saga, the epics, the long, the lifelong story that has a new chapter in it, which is the story of me and my family and my dad and my sister and my sister died unexpectedly on, I think she actually died a week ago yesterday, although pending autopsy.
1
00:08:27
Cause she was very young 50. She would have turned 55 day before yesterday. And it's very weird to be mourning somebody that you haven't spoken to in 17 years. But, and, but to feel it, I presume the same way I would be if I had, I mean, it's certainly, if we had been on the phone to each other every day, maybe it would have a, to be a different kind of hurt, but it's the same kind of hurt I felt with my dad, which is like, okay, well now it's over. And one thing that you always hope for when you have difficult relationships with family members is that you just hope for change.
1
00:09:10
You just hope that one day his circumstances are going to be different. And, and what was the impediment to your closeness is now gone. And then when they die, that's really, you really can't hope for that anymore.
3
00:09:24
Yeah. I mean, I think that it, it's a, it's a second kind of loss, right? So it's a loss of a dream, the loss of a hope. So you're dealing with two, probably many, but two definite losses, the loss of the life and the loss of the dream that you could reconnect. And that is real rough and it, and it, yeah. And, and the loss of the, that things could have been, you know, maybe been different. And now that there's no hope left and it's rough, it is a rough thing. And I think that's just what it is. It's hard.
1
00:10:01
That's just what it is. It's hard. And I have been, Hmm. Maybe because of my distance from her, I have had the, also the distance in grieving her to say to myself, what, what is it about her that I want to remember, because this has happened to me twice now. W when somebody who you had conflict with dies, one of the first things that happens is whatever anger you felt. It, it didn't, it didn't totally leave, but like it's 98% gone.
1
00:10:41
Right. You know? And, and instead I want to remember about, you know, who she was, but I don't think she was alone in being a person who was so bound by other people's expectations of her that I'm not totally, like, I don't know who she really was. And I think that's because she didn't know who she really was. And I think that's because she was always beautiful. And this is something I've really learned about beautiful people is they say, it's very limiting for them.
1
00:11:24
I feel, especially for women, it's extremely limiting. She was a gorgeous baby and child, and everybody has only ever mostly given her that feedback. So like, this has just been this continuous loop of you're beautiful. You're beautiful. You're beautiful. Which nobody realizes inherent in that is the absence of, oh, and you're a good person and you're smart and you're whatever. So I've been trying to figure out, okay, besides being beautiful, what was she? And I don't have the answers yet. I'm hoping to find out, but one way I'm, I'm learning a little bit about it as when I can look at old pictures, pictures of her and her childhood before all of the trauma.
1
00:12:12
And it's more clear. Do you ever see that you go, oh, that's that look in your eye? I didn't know that look because I was too young when you had that look, but that's, I don't totally know exactly, but who that person is, but I know that that's
3
00:12:27
Who you yeah. Yes, absolutely. And that's was who she was. I think this is, it's really interesting that you're talking about. Like, you can choose in a way and how to remember somebody that is fascinating to me and it's true. And, but like work through, cause it, you, right. It would be so easy to say, eh, for people and, and, and for, for her, like she was this, she was beautiful and she was troubled like that. Okay. And she had strained relationships, but that's not really who she was. That was what happened to her. Right. But like who she was you're right. Is that fire in the eye pre trauma.
3
00:13:08
It's really interesting. It's really interesting. So maybe it's helpful if any of our listeners are out there that, that are working with these issues, it's like maybe try to find a photo of the person pre whatever your, their trauma was and see if that could help, you know, or
1
00:13:27
Of yourself. I realized my, I think, I think it was okay to say my mom's sponsor when she was first getting sober, encouraged her to get photographs of herself from when she was a little girl and put them up. And I, to tell you the truth, I was at the time I was a teenager, I thought it was really weird. And I hadn't remembered it until just now, but that I bet that's it. I bet part of it is just reconnect with who you were, because you were born a perfect person and life, you know, shaped you in these various ways. It gives you a lot of compassion.
1
00:14:08
I mean, almost, I think anybody, almost anybody, but actually anybody comes into this life with no bad intentions with no, you know, just wanting to like, that's weird. You come into life wanting to be the fullest version of yourself. Not, not consciously, of course, but that's just, you're born with that tension. Like just be who you are. And then basically what you get is a series of messages about why you can't do that. Or you don't, or you have a great upbringing and you, you don't get told that, or you don't get told very much, but I feel like my sister told that exclusively, like, here's how you have to be, you know, and her whole life was just this whirling dervish of like trying to be that person and feeling resentful about it.
1
00:15:05
But then being in the cage of, I think she didn't even know why she had the cage that she had, but she was definitely in this prison of expectations. Wow. Other people's expectations of her. So my hope for her, if there's a great beyond is that she's free from people's expectations of her. And she can just be the beautiful spirit anyway, making a complete left turn or right.
1
00:15:50
Tell me about what's been going on with you. I normally we have so much more than we've had in the last couple of weeks,
3
00:15:58
So true. I am. Okay. So I finished, well, I'm out, I'm now on draft. I'm still working with my mentor, Don on, on hold my calls and I'm on draft seven, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and, and, and I talked a little bit about this, but so I entered that contest for log lines and they picked it and then they wanted to see a full script. So I was like, oh, okay. And then I had a meeting with the woman from that company who picked the script, who asked to see the script. And she's amazing her name. She's amazing. I will just put it out there that Nita at roadmap writers, just the coolest, most generous.
3
00:16:45
So their roadmap writers is like an organization that helps. Right. It helps screenwriters television writers and film writers to, to like get reps and, and get in the industry. It's like, that's theirs and they have classes and things like that. But she, it just was really, I gotta say, like I've had meetings where people where I really feel like people are lovely, but they just cannot help. Or they're not in a position to help she's in a position to help. And is me in the conversation. I walked away from the meeting feeling like it's possible to be writer at 45 going on 46.
3
00:17:25
It's possible too. So that was really lovely because inherent in a lot of the meetings that I've go on, which is, oh, and the meetings that I've go on are usually friends of friends or like connections that it's not the thing that I walk away feeling terrible. Although sometimes I do and that's my own shit and mixed with other shit. But mostly what it is, is like, oh, they can't really forward advance my cause as a writer or, or, or they're not available. They don't want to, whatever it is. But this really felt, she's just felt so genuine and hopeful about women writers, especially middle-aged women writers.
3
00:18:08
And I don't know it was a, that was a great meeting. So I don't know nothing has happened. Like it's so interesting in this industry. It's like, it's like, I think there's so many steps and then something hits, right. So many beings, like it is like, I thought it was like a couple of building blocks. And then you get there, there's probably a hundred hundreds of these little blocks is little stones. It's more like stepping stones than it is these blocks, you know? And so I feel like I'm really building towards something and that was a great meeting and I've had, and I had, yeah, I, that was last week.
3
00:18:48
And I
1
00:18:49
I've heard that, that by the way, so many times about in various ways, just you think that there's some, once somebody said, you think there's maybe 10 levels of success in this industry and really there's 10,000. I mean,
3
00:19:07
That's so true. And so I feel like where I am is now realizing that like, oh, okay. And there are 10,000 little, little stepping stones and I'm somewhere in the middle of all that. And there's different levels, right? So like, then you have a success here. And so I just am focusing on trying to get this script to the B the best to can, like, that's, that's my thing. Like, get it to be the best you can. And my mentor Don is just golden. She's just, she goes above and beyond, and she's so lovely. And I've never worked with someone who I'm not, and this speaks to me too, like, like I've never worked with someone who I haven't been either petrified of or the opposite didn't respect.
3
00:19:59
So, because I live in that world, I can live in that black and white thinking. So Don is the first mentor that I've had where I'm like, okay, I do, I do value her opinion. I do trust what she says. There is a level of admiration that leads to a little bit of, I don't know about fear, but it's like, I want to do good, but it's not because I'm afraid. She won't love me. If I it's more, it's like healthier. So that's what I'm saying. So I'm having a healthier relationship with my mentor also
1
00:20:32
Sounds like a difference from what you've previously experienced and what I've experienced a little bit too, is there's a lot of people in this industry who, when they off, when they purport to be offering something to you or hinting at offering something to you, it's really just the way that they're leveraging hoping you'll give them something. Right. You know what I mean? Or
3
00:21:00
Like, or like, right. They feel they don't really have anything
1
00:21:05
To offer, but th but they're faking it till they make it. Like, they're saying, well, if I, if I sort of pretend like I can open certain doors for you, then that will actually help me. And then you're going, I just know that I've been, I've had that experience many times of talking to somebody who's saying, yes, I'm, this is great. And I'm totally into you. And you being like, wow, somebody is really going to help me. And then them being like, so who do you know? Right, right,
3
00:21:30
Right, right. And, and, and it, and it feels, yeah, it does. It feels, it can feel desperate and like the blind leading, and then that's actually pretty abelist. But the, the, the loss leading the lost, you know, so I, I just feel like that is not happening, but nothing it's interesting. It's like, none of this has led to any money or any offers of anything, but I still just keep going beans. I mean, like, that's all I can do is keep writing and keep honing
1
00:22:01
That's right. That is all you can do. And that is in the same way that auditioning is the job of an actor. This is what you're doing right now is the job. I mean, writing plus this,
4
00:22:12
And you're doing well
0
00:22:22
Today on the podcast. We're speaking with NASA to con NASA is a delightful young actress who just graduated from school in New York city. And she tells us what her program was like. And she also tells us what it's like to graduate in a pandemic, as well as what it's like to be an international student. So please enjoy our conversation with NASA UConn. Congratulations, you survived theater school,
1
00:22:54
Be the second person, but I can't remember who the first person was from the American academy of dramatic art. Is that a very old school? Has that been around for a really long time? It
2
00:23:05
Has, it was opened up in the late 18 hundreds actually. And I think its original location was in Broadway. And then around the 1960s is when they moved to Midtown Manhattan around 30th street and Madison avenue, I think. And it's also a very old building. I remember classrooms. When you look at the ceiling, it's just very oriented, very intricate decorations. And you can see where chandelier's, might've hung.
1
00:23:34
That's cool. But no chandelier is when you were taking one home.
2
00:23:40
No, I mean the stairs though, I, there were a lot of stairs. It was kind of small, but very tall six floors. And you just have to walk up and down those stairs for all your classes. Oh man, no elevator. This is old school. There were some elevators, but they were tiny. One time I remember I needed to get in. Cause I had a suitcase for acting class and I can't bring that up the stairs. So I went in and maybe about four people can fit in this elevator, but seven others decided to shove themselves in there and we get stuck between the first and second floor.
2
00:24:20
And I'm just panicking. I'm like, no, this is too small. Thankfully we got out quickly. So I don't know if you've listened
1
00:24:32
At all to the podcast, but we, our range of knowledge is, you know, pretty heavily skewed towards the school that we went to. We've talked to people from other schools, but we always love to hear about the ways in which other programs are different. I'm assuming you did the basics, voice and speech and movement and acting. But is it anything like how, you know, at NYU you get assigned to a certain school, you do the experimental or you do that. So is it like that? Was it like that?
2
00:25:02
Not really at our school, it was a pretty small school. I would teach school. I think my graduating class was 120, 130 students. And I remember my first year I went in and you know, I felt like all college is like, oh, they're gonna let me choose what classes I want. And I got to build my schedule, but they do that for you. And you know, first day they send out your schedules. You're a part of a section. I was in the largest group, 14 people like that was the largest I've been in. And you do all your classes together, acting voice and speech Alexander. And it was very tight knit, like acting class. I remember we started off with some Eisner techniques, you know, doing repetition work and then move on to doing it.
2
00:25:48
As you're doing an activity like someone's coming to visit you and they need to tell you something and you're trying to get something done. That's urgent. Like, let's say you need a big cupcakes for your niece's birthday this afternoon. And you're not allowed to ask any questions. It's pure repetition, back and forth. And then we moved on to like some short scenes with each other then to group scenes in like the end of each semester as kind of a performance and rehearsal preparation.
1
00:26:18
Wow. And so you got to do that's when you did your show.
2
00:26:24
Second year I got to do two shows. The first one was major Barbara and the second one was comic relief.
1
00:26:33
Comic relief is that I don't know about that. Yes.
2
00:26:37
It's a very interesting one. It's taken in a futuristic world where acting profession is no longer done by humans, but by realistic robots that you can control everything for them. And they're used for all the soap operas, all like the stuff people are always watching.
1
00:26:56
Oh my gosh, is that where we're headed?
2
00:27:00
I want to have a job major Barbara. I remember
3
00:27:04
Major Barbara. We did that at, at the end, our theater school. And I remember, yeah, Jen. Yeah. Shine
1
00:27:11
Is tough, right? I mean, did you, did you like the play?
2
00:27:16
It was interesting. My director definitely made it all the better. His name is George. Heselin adore him. I remember first day of rehearsals sits downstairs that he's like, if you haven't done the work, get out, do the work, come back. You have been here. You have trained. You should know how to do things by now, which I agree with. We have done the training. No one should be slacking. No one should be just sitting to the side of playing around while we're doing our graduation plays. Those were major. And he gave such good advice and he made sure for us, you are here, you are on the stage.
2
00:27:56
It's your moment. Take it. You only got two lines. Make sure the audience doesn't forget it. Oh, so it's a two year program. Yes, it can be three, but in order to get into third year, you need to audition.
1
00:28:10
Okay. Okay. And you didn't want to do that or?
2
00:28:13
I kind of, I had already gotten my associates and I needed a break. I had jumped from high school here in Jordan where it's externals a levels and all of these exams right into an acting academy. Right. I spent two years in blood, sweat and tears building up my acting and I just wanted a break. So I decided I'll just graduate, you know, take a semester off. And then I actually applied to hunter college where I'm at now doing the theater program. Oh, oh, I missed that. Okay. Great. At hunter. Oh, I hear great
1
00:28:49
Things about that school. You like it?
2
00:28:51
I'm loving it so far. I got to tour it before the pandemic hit literally a month before COVID hits. I got to tour it and it's beautiful. It's really beautiful. Where are you right
3
00:29:03
Now? Are you in Jordan? Yes. I
2
00:29:05
Came in the end of August is when I arrived to visit my family and I got out of self isolation mid September,
1
00:29:14
But so, so you're doing Khan hunter completely. Yeah. Online
2
00:29:18
At the moment. Yes. But come fall semester. We're back to hybrid. So half of classes are going to be online and in person and theater majors, a majority are in person.
1
00:29:31
Okay, cool. So we're now we're dying to know about Jordan. Tell us what's the theater scene. Like if there is one, is
2
00:29:39
There is I started theater here in high school because we have these things called IGC, a CS, which are exams that we get from Cambridge or at XL in England. And we take them. So I decided to take drama as it. And that's actually what got me to realize I wanted to be an actor. It was interesting. I got to do a multi-year play in junior year and I got to do or write actually, and perform an absurd play in my senior year. Which recommendations
1
00:30:11
You wrote, you wrote the play that you then were in? Yes. Oh, wow. Brave. That's very cool. You said the
3
00:30:19
Recommendation was not to do what? Not
2
00:30:22
To write. It's hard writing one because absurd plays nothing makes sense. Right? Like you have married them made from the bald pre-Madonna Donald's little girl has one bread. I won what I, well, Elizabeth Little girl has won. What white I won. Red only difference is like they're switched and it's nothing makes sense and make it good. It's like
3
00:30:46
Would be like gobbledygook. Mine would be garbled. Digger is what it would be called.
2
00:30:52
I do kind of wonder. I mean, I actually sort
1
00:30:54
Of like absurd of stuff, but on the one hand, it's like, how do you even evaluate whether or not an absurdist play as good? I guess if it's absurd in the way that still somehow reminds you of your life, I
3
00:31:07
Think that's probably your best bet because, or else there's no way to judge it. Like Mary has one red eye, one blue eye that's I don't understand what's happening there.
2
00:31:16
Just three old women wearing their brawls outside of their clothes, talking about the best burgers in this Indian restaurant and how, oh, she's going to have such a lovely June wedding. It'll be spring weather and we can wear a winter coat.
3
00:31:51
It. I love it. It's like
2
00:31:54
You did a great job. I tried, I tried, I was lucky to have my drama teacher and she had given me all the absurd plays she had, so I could study them and kind of bring it all together for inspiration
3
00:32:09
And for, you know, forgive my ignorance. But I'm assuming Jordan, there's like a whole, you have your own team. Like there's probably a, a Hollywood of Jordan. Is there like kind of
2
00:32:21
Thing here isn't as big as you would find, for example, in Turkey or in Egypt or Lebanon. But we do have our acting scenes. We actually have a television show here that was put on Netflix called gin. Oh, I heard about it. Yeah, it was here. It was all the students were from a school here called Becca Lauria excuse me. And we were men. There was meant to be another TV show, but then COVID hit and everything was on a stand still. But we have here the Royal film commission and that's where like, that's kind of the center of acting here.
1
00:32:54
Fancy. What does that mean? The Royal, like, are you saying that it's just one centralized place that's making films.
2
00:33:02
It's it's a, it's kind of the headquarters, I guess for filmmaking here, it's called the Royal film commission because Jordan is a monarchy. We have a king and a queen and the Royal family. So a lot of things here tend to go for that. And I think when a lot of people like come to film here, for example, when they filmed Aladdin or star wars, I think that that is where they went like first the Royal film commission to everything. Right.
3
00:33:27
To get the permits, do this, do that. Yeah. That sounds really cool. So you, did you, you started acting in high school when you were taking these tests, like to try to, okay. So not as a child, like, well, you're still young, but I mean, you were like a kid, like a five-year-old, but it was more like when you were reached high school years that you did, what did, what did you love about it? Why did you love it?
2
00:33:49
So my, my junior year when I did the multi-year play was really when it settled in for me, I was set as the first stage manager, my drama teacher to ever had. She just, yeah, I was really happy about that. And I just adored watching this play, come on stage, come to life. I loved being on stage, you know, just being in the character, being to deliver someone else's story and seeing the audience's reactions to it, or when we write a comedic part, cause we edited the play a little bit to fit today's audience. And I adored just hearing their laughter their gasps, just all of their reactions and being really into this thing.
1
00:34:27
Hmm. So tell us about the experience of going from, from that and, and, and the world of, of acting that you knew from high school to, to the college setting. Was it very different? Was it a version of the same thing who is
2
00:34:45
On a completely different spectrum? Completely different because here it was also an examination. So, you know, yes, you need to focus on like some acting techniques, but the main focus was on us getting our grades because it is important. A lot of colleges here and in Europe are going to look at these exams. So when I went to the U S you know, what I had known for acting is memorize your lines, pretend to be this character. And you're good. And I got, yeah, you don't even know how to breathe. You don't know what you're doing.
3
00:35:18
I think that's most of us that's most of us, I, I feel like the, the, the same exact, I, I feel like I knew a little bit, but it was like memorize your lines. You're good. And that's what a lot of people on the podcast say, they thought acting was,
2
00:35:32
I knew there was emotion, but I just thought, pretend it. And then you, you go to a college, like when I went to audit and they're just like, yeah, no, you are the character. You're not pretending to be her. You are her. I was like, oh, was that
1
00:35:49
Overwhelming to you? Did you like it? I mean, cause I, I w w I personally felt really frustrated at the beginning, like, cause I was one of these point and click type actors to just memorize your lines and stand in your place. Did it feel overwhelming to you? It
2
00:36:05
Did, especially at first, I just remember the teachers being like move in class, for example, the teachers just being like, do what you want, move around, make whatever sound you want. I'm in a country where it's very unit where it's very, like, keep to yourself, stay quiet. Like you represent your family. So you got to always be respectful. So going into that, I'm just like, but you didn't give me any directions. Like, what do you want me to do? And I remember so many breakdowns, so many breakdowns and seeing other people acting wondering, am I good enough? Like, look at the other, doing it. And I'm just here, like, what's going on?
1
00:36:45
Did you have a moment where it, it, it clicked for you
2
00:36:49
In my second year, I had this amazing teachers then on for acting and he, for my scene, my, I think it was my first scene of the year. He set me in Rosemary and with ginger and it's, it's a very short play. My scene was I think around 10, 15 minutes, the play itself, maybe half an hour. And it's about these two sisters, Rosemary and ginger. And you know, Ginger's married. She has two kids and Rosemary was married, but she became an alcoholic and her and her husband are separated divorcing.
2
00:37:29
And she's in a custody battle with her children. And it's an emotional roller coaster. Like I remember I was Rosemary and there was a part where I was just drunk and my sister was getting on my nerves. So I made up a story to make her think that I pushed my kids off a cliff. And I remember at first having such a hard time with this character, like, what am I? I've never been the type of person. I'm more of the fun loving, like, I'm, I'm the innocent, like high schooler. I'm go to like, you need advice. That's going like unicorns. That's like
2
00:38:12
So to go to a mother, that's pretending she killed her kids and is just onstage drinking. I was lost. Yeah. And he was just there to encourage me. And I remember one day in a scene, I was just like, oh, this is kind of like my secondary, like breakthrough after bad Jews. I was just like, wait, I feel like character. I am the character. I'm not just pretending to live for life. I have. And I could just feel her. And after that, I've just felt every character I've played, just kind of stitch themselves into my, my, my own being my own identity and kind of have a part of each of them in me.
1
00:38:56
That's the best way. That's the best way just to bring the parts of the character that are, or just, yeah. The parts of the character that are like you and kind of, cause that's also what your unique take is on any given character. Yeah. So this is interesting to me that the idea that did you use the word proper and describing your co, you were saying that everybody needs to represent themselves, represent their FA your family. Does that mean it's very proper, like formal in Jordan
2
00:39:25
To a certain extent, for example, clothes you need to wear gotta be respectable and not too much skin, you know, the way you act around public, like, especially with the women. And especially if you go to the older parts of Jordan, it's, don't be so loud, be calm. And like, you gotta be respectable. Cause everyone knows your last name. And once they know your last name, they know your family. Like I can, I used to go up to my grandmother. If I had a crush on someone and be like, Hey, this is his last name. Tell me about his family. Okay. So you do want to bring disrespect to your parents. Do you want to show that you respect them and you've respected what they've taught you,
1
00:40:05
But you have to act like such a fool in acting school.
2
00:40:10
I mean,
1
00:40:11
That must've been a challenge.
2
00:40:13
It was, it really was. I remember first getting there, like I'm there sitting back straight shoulders back, which is really bad for you. I learned. And like, you know, I'm not to talk a lot, especially cause I've always been allowed and just in your face person when I talk, so I've kind of learned, I kind of had learned to them internalize that not to be as loud. And when I got there, my teacher's like make noise, like, come on. We're we're on our backs for babies, scoop gal roll down. And I'm just like, oh, what have, I don't want to make noise? And they're like force yourself. And I remember one day I had gone to bed, you know, my roommates across the room has been asleep.
2
00:40:58
I'm trying to fall asleep. And then suddenly I hear an exhale like ha and I pause. I'm like she's asleep. He could have done that. And then I realized it was me. My body was just like, yeah, we're releasing sound. You don't even got to think about it. We got you. I was
1
00:41:16
Like, whoa, cool. So it kind of sounds like you, it was, it was a relief to be able to access that side of you.
2
00:41:27
It was because I had internalized so much of it because, and I also don't want to disturb people, especially in society, not just Jordanian culture, but anywhere you are, you don't want to be allowed and disrupt other people with what they're doing. You don't want to annoy them. So I had always internalized most of that because, you know, I don't want to be a bother. Right. But then, and I always just like take as little space as possible. Like if I notice I'm talking too loud. Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. I'll, I'll quiet my voice. And when I went to that school, like I remember Zen on my act, one of my acting teachers being like, yeah, when you go to bed, lay on your back and spread out, take the room is your space. And all of my teachers, like if I'm loud, they encouraged it.
2
00:42:09
They're like, yeah. Be loud, make noise. And I was just like, wow. Like I can really just let loose in the acting world. Right. Oh, that's so
3
00:42:20
Good to hear. I mean, that's, so it must've been freeing in some way. And how is it then to return back to Jordan and after all the freeing this,
2
00:42:30
Oh my gosh, the story for this. So I ha I've been here since August and for a few months I had to it's bad, but I did not do any acting exercises. Any of like the things I've learned at school, I just kind of went on a standstill and I felt bad. So when they, my younger sister comes up to me with her, something she needs to read for school and she reads better when she's hearing it. She came up to me and she's like, can you record yourself reading this? So I'm like, sure. And I started reading it, but then, you know, my throat tightens and I'm feeling tired and I'm like, wait, I can just do like some voice and speech exercises. So I'm doing them. And I have this one where it's just like, let your voice out on a vibrate that by family describes as calling.
2
00:43:15
Oh, lost. So
3
00:43:29
Really SIG. And they're just laughing. They were calling all lost souls. I love that. I
1
00:43:35
Love that. That's gotta be the name of your podcast calling. So wait, so I'm getting the idea that maybe you're somewhat of a pioneer and your family, like you did. Nobody else has done this, gone into it. Nope. I'm
2
00:43:51
The first, my family is very like my older sister. She works at a software company that creates banking apps right now. And my younger sister is going into the business field. You know, my dad is in business. My uncle has like a PhD in two masters and my cousins are all in sciences. And then I'm just here. Like, I feel like a baby in the class today, Google, Google.
1
00:44:20
That's always rough to have to explain to your parents what they're spending their money on. And you're being a baby and doing yoga. They were, it sounds
3
00:44:28
Like they were, I mean, at least they'd let you go. I mean, so they were supportive in that way in terms of even letting you go so far away. Oh, my dad
2
00:44:38
Was so supportive when we'd like go out and he was with friends. He's like, yeah, my daughter, she's going to New York to be an actress. She got into like a really good school. And he even sent me at the time I needed to audition for school. He sent me to London during a school week. Just so I could I, how was your audition?
3
00:44:55
What did you do? Do you remember what you, the piece you did and how were you nervous and all that?
2
00:45:01
Oh my goodness. So I remember when I applied to the school, I wasn't originally going to apply. I saw like all the alumni, like Paul Rudd and Danny DeVito and Grace Kelly. And I was like, I'm not going to get in here, like skip. But then they sent me an application and I was like, oh, like, got to give this a try. And I went to London and my audition was in the prince of Wales. I think prince of Wales theater, the one that had the house, some more the book of Mormon. Oh, big deal. Yeah. And I'm sitting there and there are like 10 other people in the room and I'm just like, whew. Okay. It's all good. I'm like, everyone disappears upstairs then leaves.
2
00:45:44
And so I got upstairs and it was the cutest old man I had ever seen him just gritty. Obviously. It's so lovely to meet you. And he was so sweet. And then I performed for him a monologue, two monologues, one from a view from the bridge, a scan. The I'm not like when she's talking to her dolphin, she's like, I love Eddie. I want him to be happy, but I don't want to upset him. And I did for him marry the made from the bulk Pima, Donna. He absurd when we were talking about a little while ago and I just remember shaking a little while doing it. But then at the ball, premadonnas soon as I started, he started giggling and I was like, like we're getting there.
2
00:46:29
And I was like the nicest
3
00:46:31
Man in the world. He is, I
2
00:46:34
Loved him. And then I remember talking to him for a little bit. And then he's like, could you do a cold read for me? And I'm like, oh, like, sure. Then he just like, gives me a little monologue to do just like a quick cold read. And it doesn't always happen. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. And then two weeks later I got the news that I got in.
1
00:46:55
So that's also sort of unusual for us. Like the idea that, I mean, it's not that anybody was mean at our additions, but the feeling was very, you know, competitive and tough. And like you had to sort of be on your guard. Did you find that your teachers at that school were support equally supportive and caring? Very
2
00:47:17
Supportive, very caring. They, I never felt them being me and all I ever felt with them was I'm going to push you to be your best. And I remember my second for first year, my acting teacher, I was terrified of him at first because I had heard stories. He strict, like, you always got to like, listen. And if you like do something wrong, like he's going to be strict on you. And I was terrified, but I got there and he became my favorite. He was just, he was just, he was strict in our work. He was strict, but in a way that I felt that I wanted to make him proud. I wanted to, I didn't want to mess up.
2
00:47:57
Not because I was terrified of how he would scold me, but because I wanted him to see, I am taking in your teachings and I am using them because he was such an articulate teacher. And not just through words, but through movement. And at times if I felt lost, I knew I could go to him and he would tell me the truth of where I'm at, what I can do and once do something good. He will encourage you. It will be like, I loved that. Like you were energetic, you were doing great. I see you're working hard to keep at it. And it was great. Something that occurred
1
00:48:35
To me since we haven't really known each other. We've talked a couple of times, but it's not like we went to school together. Something that occurs to me about you is that you have such an openness and an honestness, which, which is the, are those are very good qualities for acting. Are you, are you being received the same way at hunter? Is it, are you having a equally positive experience? I know it's online. So my PRS,
2
00:49:01
I haven't started the acting classes yet. Any theater classes because ATA and hunter have kind of this program to transfer credits, but I ended up emailing the wrong advisor. So I wasn't able to get that done until now. So I can't quite talk about their theater department yet, but I've heard a lot of good things from other students. So
3
00:49:25
You'll go and get your undergrad. Will that be your, your BFA? Are you getting a BFA from hunter
2
00:49:32
At ATA? You just get your associates degree. That's the maximum you can go. I think, I don't know about when you enter third year, but at hunter, I'm going to be continuing for my bachelor's
1
00:49:43
2
00:49:50
I hope to stay, try to get into the acting world. That's all of our dreams, you know, get into the acting world, be in some big hit movie or television show, gets your name, know, get it to as many things as possible, but I know it's a competitive place. And I hope after being able to go into acting and doing all of these things to teach it, teach it everyone at my school would, I would help my drama teacher teach her younger classes. I remember this one group she gave me, they were doing, he who says, I think it was Brett. And it's a diff it's a difficult play because let's say you have the three students.
2
00:50:34
It's a monotone is play you all, all three of you got to talk at the same time, same tone, same sentence. And that can be difficult for some students. Not everyone can perfectly memorize. And I remember her setting me up the group having the most trouble. And she was like, please, you take this group. And that other group is fine. Just check on them. I'll be with a third in the theater and working with them for an hour. And the pride I felt when I saw them get it the way they should, when I saw them excited to do it was amazing. And once I'm done with my time in the acting world, I would love to help others get into it. Love to help others learn about it and just experience it.
2
00:51:17
That's beautiful is everyone
3
00:51:19
Is so beautiful. Is everyone in your family so positive?
2
00:51:23
Like how did you get this attitude? I'm serious. You're
3
00:51:26
So like, you're so positive. Where do you think that comes
2
00:51:29
From? I think I definitely got it from my mother. She was a teacher too. And she was just the sweetest soul you would have ever met. She was always smiling. She was always so kind and generous and I want to live up to be that I want to live up to be just like she was
1
00:51:50
So you'll have to get a math. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. She passed away. Yes. When I was 15. Wow. That's rough. That's a young age to have to lose your mom.
2
00:52:02
It is what, I'm not too upset. She's I'm a firm believer in my religion. I follow Islam. So I firmly believe she's at peace. She is happy. She is with her family, with like her parents and her aunts and her grandmother. And she's just happy. That's all I could ask
1
00:52:20
For. That's what they say. They say, we're the ones. Have they feel sorry for us living on the living on earth. Right.
2
00:52:27
I heard that quote once I forgot where exactly. But it said pity, the living, not the dead because the dead are arresting, but we're the ones that have to deal with it after.
1
00:52:38
Yeah. In a way. So you'll have to get your master's degree then if you want to be a teacher or are you saying you want to teach at the college level or you want to teach younger kids?
2
00:52:47
Sure. Yet I was planning on getting my bachelor's with a minor in education. Kind of see how things go. And if I really feel that teaching is my passion, go back for my masters. Cause I'd love to teach high school level because I feel a lot of high schoolers. When they go into an acting college, they don't know what to expect. Right. Because high school doesn't really prepare you for the big acting world. And I'd love to give them that stepping stone that I didn't have to make that transition easier.
1
00:53:18
Yeah, that's true. There's a big divide between, I would say maybe like 80% and states and in any case maybe 90% of high school drama programs are just, it's like the English teacher or it's like somebody that they just said here, teach acting. And it's not that they don't know anything. It's just, but then we interviewed somebody who is an actor and he teaches the high school and also junior high level. And he, he takes a ver he takes a conservatory style approach to teaching his students. And many of them have gone on to, to be actors.
1
00:53:58
Whereas, you know, it probably wouldn't have been that way otherwise. So there's a lot to be said for your high school experience being, you know, informed by somebody who really knows what they're talking about. Totally. Yeah.
3
00:54:12
I think that, there's a, if I think that if, if kids want to go to a conservatory, I think it would behoove them. Also. I was thinking to visit conservatories and see what is going on there. Cause it's not like memorize your lines and stand there. And I think, I wish I had, I wish I had done a lot of things differently, but one of them was do more research, research, research on what? And with the internet it's possible to see like, oh, I would like this approach. Oh, I would like, cause when I showed up at NYU, oh my gosh to audition. And they said, what school do you want to be in? And I said your school.
2
00:54:52
And they said, oh no.
3
00:54:56
Program at NYU. And I said, the one they said, you know, we have all these different schools. And I literally said something stupid. Like the one that's the most fun. I don't know what. And they were like, you haven't researched our schools. Like the Atlantic, the, this, the roundabout. I'm like, Nope. Oh God. But
1
00:55:17
At the same time, I think that was a helpful experience for you because you learn like, I mean, that was not. And people of all the things, good things I hear about NYU, I don't hear anybody saying it was fun. Yeah. People saying it was really intense. It was really, and the way that you get kind of put into, I hate that idea by the way that you just get put into a box and then that's all you learn because very few people anymore. Do you meet who say, I'm just the method or I'm just miser. Like everybody does an eclectic thing and that's what you can get if you go to it.
3
00:55:53
Yeah. I love the fact that you found joy in acting in high school and it continued at your college, you know, at your, at your program that the joy wasn't definitely sucked out in any way of acting that they didn't, it sounds like it was fun.
2
00:56:11
And there were times where there was some joy sucking. I mean, it's a very intense program to go into acting because you're very raw. You're very, like I remember one day I was doing a play. I think it was playground injuries. I was doing a scene and it was a funeral post funeral scene. And I had my partner, you know, we were doing our acting and I'm like, I'm supposed to be in the weight room where like my dead father's in his casket. And then I remember my teacher pausing us and being like, okay, where is your father's casket? And I'm like, it's the fourth wall where the audience is. And she's like, okay, grab some blocks, sets them up, points at it.
2
00:56:53
This is your dead father goes back. And you know, with like my past history of family loss, it brought out a lot. And you know, days like that, I was just like, do I want to continue ripping myself emotionally like this? But then it also helps so much because I remember also in some classes you had to be barefoot, like voice and speech had to be barefoot, get to it. And I remember seeing grown men from the military, sobbing their hearts out over a poem about their voices. And it's something that I feel like you need to make sure you're in the right place emotionally to go through and you need to make sure you have a good support system.
2
00:57:37
Like my teachers I'm so thankful there was such great supports. You know, they never, if they felt I was, I didn't fully express everything in a scene. They're like, scream, go ahead, scream here, throw this, get your emotions out, relax yourself. You need to bring yourself out of this after the scene to make sure you take care of yourself. Wow. Yeah. Mental health.
3
00:58:04
Are they mostly teachers at that school working actors still or do or some of them? Yeah, I think that makes a big difference. I think that's a huge difference because as much as I enjoyed some of our teachers and a lot of our teachers, none of them, as far as I know, were like working professionals in the field, still of acting like actors on stage or actors in movies. And it helps to have people that are still working teaching. Yeah.
1
00:58:32
Yeah. A lot of work teachers
2
00:58:34
Were still in the field or had just recently retired from the field. Like I remember one of my acting teachers, the one I had before we went into our place, second year was David Dean betrayal. And he actually has a book on acting. And I remember biggest the guys say to get people to be like, well, it was, he was on a card. This is how I knew people would like get the like, oh, your school was made like, and he wasn't. Other than we're just in the point of, yeah, you just got to do this, get a move on. They were at a point where they were sharing their own personal experience to connect with us.
2
00:59:17
You know, they see us having a hard time. They'll talk about one of their times. They'll talk like I get what you're coming from. Like my guess is this is how you feel. And here are some ways you can work through this. Or if you need to talk, like come to me after class, we can set up time. We can like, you can vent to me. I'm here for you I feel like that's very important in an acting school. Cause a lot of us, as we said earlier, coming in with no idea what's going on. And if we do, we are very, very lucky to have an idea because a lot of us are at a disadvantage. A lot of us are coming from small towns or at a place where we were expected to become lawyers or corporate people. And we're suddenly here in acting, right.
3
00:59:59
Would you teach in Georgia? Would you go to state in New York city to teach? Do you think, or Jordan or where, or are you just like the world's my oyster I'll teach anywhere.
2
01:00:10
I've definitely debated mainly teaching in the us. It's it's a place I want to say it it's a place where I feel like I can do a lot because there's more opportunity. I mean, as I say us, the place of opportunities, the land of opportunity. So I'd love to go there. But one day I would enjoy coming here or at least going to England because that's where we do all of our exams from that's where we get it and kind of see what I can do there to make it better, to get these people to actually act. Cause I remember a lot of students in my class were just in it because it's supposed to be an ECA. Like our teacher just tells me walk here, there, I'm going to get the name done.
2
01:00:53
I'd love to change it in a way that's, you're passionate about this. Cause I was the only one who stayed my senior year. I was the only person. And even for my play, I had to recruit two non drama students in order to get it done. They all left. Everyone left. They all dropped. As soon as we finished grade, grade 11, our junior play, they were just like, yeah, we're dropping. And I was the only one who stayed.
1
01:01:18
Wow. That's a unique experience. So is hunter to your knowledge going to spend any time sort of talking to you about what your post college career situation is going to be? Because one of the things that we talk about a lot on here is just all of us feeling like you didn't learn some of the most important parts about making a living as an actor until you were just forced trial by fire to do it after you graduated. So do you have a sense of what Hunter's approach is to that?
2
01:01:51
I'm not quite sure. I know my advisor. She's pretty good with keeping contact with me and being like, Hey, like, this is what's going on. This is what you need to do. But I'm personally not too worried. Cause they prepared at oughta. They told me like, this is what today's acting world is like they would give us mock auditions with stage met with like not stage managers, agencies and stuff like that. And I remember they they're the ones that are like, these are headshots. This is what she needs to do. We're going to like set up flyers, set up a fair. So you can find someone to get your head shots, be warned. These are the prices. If you change your haircut, like I've got bangs. Since my last head shots were taken, my head shops are now null and void.
2
01:02:34
I need to get new ones because they need to know what to expect. And you know, they helped us set up actor's access accounts, like how to build it up, help us with a resume. And we had career plan classes where they like taught us what your careers and actors going to be like, you know, they would tell us their own stories. And it was, it was really well preparing us. I like literally want to go to this school as a 45 year old just to just,
3
01:03:02
Just to get the experience. It's sort of like a corrective experience of like what it would be like to learn a lot. And it's only two years, right? Yeah. And you can
2
01:03:12
Go in at any age. I remember one of my cast mates in my, in my graduation place, she was 50 and nominal. Like I could do it for two years. Why not? And there were two campuses though. There's a New York campus and an LA campus. And I know each one does things a little differently.
1
01:03:32
Okay. Well she's in LA I'm in New York. We could, we can make something. So one of the major things that we didn't feel like we understood until many, many years after is, you know, marketing ourselves, like figuring out what our essence is, what sticking of ourselves, even though this is such a crude term, thinking of ourselves as a product that we have to try to sell. Do you have any sense of that for your own self? And like, what's going to separate you from the rest.
2
01:04:06
We were helped with that. We were, I remember our teachers were helping us figure out what is your cast type? Like when a person looks at you, what are they gonna cast your role as? And I remember we actually had an exercise in class, a homework where we have three papers that we had to give it out to people and they like kind of circle what they see us as. Wow. And the thing I got with most was girl, next door, you know, the sweet girl, a high schooler, the one that like is going to be baking cupcakes for you all. And it's just going to be hyper and like, hi everybody. Like let's all love each other. Let's like have a good time. We're all happy
1
01:04:46
Captain unicorn.
3
01:04:49
Maybe I should make, maybe
2
01:04:50
I should change that to my acting. Actor's name, captain unicorn, unicorn and roses.
3
01:04:58
So did you, did you agree with that? Did you feel like, yes, that is me. I can embrace this. This is my essence kind of a thing. Or how do you feel about that?
2
01:05:06
At first? I didn't, because at first I was like, I want the serious roles. I want to be taken seriously, which I feel all of us wanted because you know, you just hear these people being, wow, this like actor was in this serious movie, like any movie with Leonardo DiCaprio or just like, wow, it's such a serious movie. NIDA's great. Look at this phenomenal. And that's what I need to get into. But after time and seeing different forms of acting, I'm just like, no, like all acting is hard. And in my opinion, comedy is the hardest. Like if you're on a pedestal, in my opinion. So after some time and some, you know, going through the school and hearing the stories and doing it myself at school, I just realized that no, like this is something I can do easily.
2
01:05:57
And you know, plan is get my foot in the door first, then try to kind of expand kind of like, oh, what was his name? Comedy actor. Jim Carey Carey. Thank you, Jim Carey. How long has he done comedy? And he's just recently been in a drama film, put himself there for he's so good, but never something he would have been able to achieve 10 years ago. They would not have let him because comedy is your type. But once he got in there, yeah,
3
01:06:31
I think that that's a patience game, a long game, looking at this career as a long game. This is a long game and I never knew that. And so I think if there's a way to tell like young people in the end, you're like you feel, which is look, get your foot in the door and make some dough to pay your rent and then, and embrace what people see you as just totally embrace it. Don't fight against it if you fight against and then, and then, and then get some power and create your own situation. But like, I think, I think as, as, as sort of harsh, as it is to hand someone, a piece of paper and say, see how you see me.
3
01:07:13
Right. See it's, it's helpful because I, what I was doing was fighting against what people saw me as. It does not help you in this, in this commercial industry, in the film and TV and commercial world theater, maybe another story. But like, I feel like you feel like they did a good job at your school of combining the sort of theater actor and then how to make a living actor. Like they, they sh okay, that's great.
2
01:07:42
We may need, we were mainly trained in theater because one thing they taught us is it's very easy going from theater to film, but it's very difficult going from film to theater because in theater, you've got a project you're kind of using your body as an instrument and you're pushing it all the more while in film it's, you've got a mic stepped up to you. You can do this take multiple times. So it's okay if you mess up. And we had our, we had our camera times, you know, we had, what was the name of the class camera technique, where we would do self-tapes. They taught us how to self-tape and we would do like mid, like a one minute short movie where it's just like a quick scene of something going on.
2
01:08:23
And it was very helpful on kind of getting to know both worlds. And they told us like, while you're trying to get in, they taught us union non-union they taught us like, make sure you like, have a job on the side because you're, you're not getting money and acting, unless you're in something like friends or Harry Potter, you know, those, you keep on getting money, but other stuff, not as much. Right. So it's good to always have like that job and like backup money in case what you're doing right now. Isn't working out for a while. Yeah. I didn't
3
01:08:52
Feel prepared. I was like, I thought, I don't know what I thought. I just thought, okay, it's going to be fine. And there's here we go. It, it was not fine. And I learned from it, but it was, yeah, it sounds like you got, I mean, all this to say you got such a well-rounded education and I'm hoping that that hunter continues that
1
01:09:13
Yeah. Like talking to, so the difference, I'm going to say the major difference between sort of the generation that we came up with versus the generation now is I, I felt like with us, it was sort of, well, just roll the dice and just see the, a lot of odd says, you know, one of you is gonna win one time versus versus yeah, it there's, this there's this element of randomness to it. So you can't control everything, but the things that you can control, that's what you should be focused on.
1
01:09:54
Like, you know, how you use your, you know, make the best out of your instrument and how you make the best out of advertising yourself. That seems to be the main difference.
3
01:10:03
Go boldly in the direction of embracing who you are as a performer, like go boldly in that direction. You're the crazy neighbor, like just doing great. Do, be that CRE I wish someone had said, that's what you're going to be like the wacky crazy two liner neighbor. And I know you don't, you may not want to hear that, but that's your jam for a while. And I
2
01:10:26
Would be like, oh, maybe I
3
01:10:28
Can make, make, maybe I can make peace with that. And then really hone it and then be the best damn wacky neighbor and book every single wacky neighbor role as, until I can be like Jim Carrey and then do something else. But I, yeah, it's just a different way of looking at it. It's just a different way of looking at
2
01:10:45
It. It is if it's rough, because I feel like it's not just accepting you as what character you can be, but it also really helps you accepting you as yourself. Because I remember complaining to my friends. I look younger than I am. I remember coming back here at the airport, they thought I was 14 and I'm 21. So I know I'm going to be cast as someone younger for a really long time. And that was always difficult for me to accept because it just shows to me in real life too. No, one's going to take me seriously. Everyone's going to view me as this like cute little thing and that's it. But once you accept your typecast, I feel like it just brings a whole new level of accepting yourself to and loving yourself because wow, me looking and like acting younger is really going to get me like money one day in the industry.
2
01:11:35
Like I'm fine with it now. Absolutely. And also
1
01:11:38
Now, because something that people don't necessarily know is when they're casting for a late teenager high school age, they would, if they, if they have a trace between an actual 14 year old and a 18 or 19 or 25 year old, that looks 14, they're going to go away because there's no limits about the, how, how many hours you can work in a day and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah. Can I change
2
01:12:05
As much? I mean, look at stranger things, phenomenal show, show adore all of the actors, but the writers and you know, everyone doing the show is going to have a bit of a rough time, especially with COVID pause because they're growing, you know, the difference between season two and season three. I know he just crazy. Imagine what it's like with a whole year pause due to COVID and that's going to be rough on them. But when you're using older people, like I'm going to look the same for a couple of years. And that out of me, if I, if I, if I get some more wrinkles, they can just like, do some makeup or some like special effects trick to make that all disappear. Yes.
1
01:12:43
It's casting director for stranger things. If you are
2
01:12:45
Listening to this, it's available
3
01:12:49
Cuba. It's Carmen Cuba. She'd be great. You'd be great. I just, yeah. And I think that if I had, I went to war with myself when I graduated theater school and I went to war with the industry for getting angry that they were seeing me in a certain way, instead of just saying, right. Acceptance, acceptance really is the answer to so many things. And if you can't accept, if I couldn't accept it, I needed to do something else, which is what I did. And now I'm back because I've accepted. So it's interesting. It's just such an interesting thing. Are you, what about like agents and representation?
3
01:13:32
Are you waiting till you grow? Like till this COVID thing is over to try to get agents
2
01:13:36
Or how I it's been on my mind a lot ever since I came back here, cause I came back here hoping like I wouldn't be here too long. I'll be back for like spring semester. And then airports were shut down. We had like a week long, like pure locked down and like a lockdown every Friday, 7:00 PM curfews. And it was rough and it was rough seeing like everyone, I graduated with getting commercials, getting agencies, getting booked. And I'm hoping when I get back, kind of see how everything is. I kind of test the a little, see, am I ready to look for an agent now while I'm at school? Or do I want to take that time finished school finished like perfecting myself as much as I can and then going into it.
2
01:14:24
Yeah.
1
01:14:25
Not at the risk of giving advice that I shouldn't give. I would just say like your instinct to stick with forming yourself and learning yours and pushing the agent thing till after I think that's a good instinct because you ultimately, you really not bringing anything to the table until you've done all that work. I mean, not, not like you have to be fully fleshed out before you start working. Just like any bit more along that path, you can be you're, you're better off.
2
01:14:56
I hope so. You're ancient all the more, they know better how to market you basically how to like go to these casting directors or to these castings and be like, yeah, like she is perfect for this role. This is so she would be great for
3
01:15:09
This specificity. I love the idea of getting super specific things instead of this. Cause I had this general vague sense of like, oh, this is who I
2
01:15:20
Am. It was not good.
3
01:15:23
Is like the key, I think to a lot of happiness as well. Agreed, agreed.
1
01:15:29
So we're going to have to wrap up here, but if there was any thing else you wanted to talk to us about any story you've told us some great stories. If there's any other anecdotes you want to get in, now's the time.
2
01:15:42
Let me think. Oh wait, now you're pulling me up as fine. You can also, you can say I'm good. I have a funny story of when I was ushering at my school for a play. So I personally wasn't in the theater. I was out working, but during the break, one of my coworkers comes to me and just sits exasperated on the chair and I'm like, Hey, what's wrong? And she looks at me and she's like, so up in like this mm theater where it's like a circular theater. So if you get off your chair, you're onstage, there was this one woman passed out, like at the other end, from where the exit is passed out sleeping.
2
01:16:21
And she has so many bags on her and like shopping bags and like plastic bags and stuff. And then she just suddenly wakes up, gets up, walks on stage is they're asking. And it's like a kitchen set up. And she walks through that kitchen into backstage, goes back out and it's just standing in the middle of the stage is her real life. And not to mention you find people, like I once found someone with a whole cereal box and the audience eating during a bar. And then like during break, like during intermission, I was just like, I'm sorry.
2
01:17:03
Yeah, you have that.
1
01:17:08
People feel like they're at, I mean, you know, increasingly with entertainment being so available constantly, people just feel like they're at home when they're in any given situation. And they start to treat, I mean, people taking off their shoes, that's gross. I mean, keep your shoes on, eat your cereal at your house. Watch the show. You have to
3
01:17:28
Sleep, sleep, do it quietly. But don't like, don't like, yeah, don't bring your home into, into our theater please. Interesting
1
01:17:37
Stories. So that's true. That's true. Where would we be without them? Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. I appreciate your, I appreciate your energy. I appreciate your perspective and I will be watching you well, loving to see where you, where you go. Thank
2
01:17:54
You so much for having me here today. Of course,
0
01:18:01
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina Polizzi are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina
Intro: the coolest thing about crows, Bexley, fear of flying, Inattentive-type ADD
Let Me Run This By You: Avoidance, becoming conflict-curious
Interview: We talk to Jason Denuszek about Pinnacle Performance Company, theatrevolution, TimeLine Theatre, Grotowski and Poor Theatre, Woyzeck, Northwestern Cherubs, ComedySportz, Pirandello, Piven Theatre Workshop, Laughing Wild, Diary of Anne Frank, The Seagull, The Search for Delicious, Chicago Shakespeare, Rose Rage, The Actor's Gang,
Intro: bad news for Virgos, Are You My Mother?, when Forever Love goes too far
Let Me Run This By You: Influencer culture, Mr. Beast,
Interview: We talk to Kevin Fox about his podcast, Studs Terkel, and Edinburgh Fringe.
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 0 (0s): And Jenn Bosworth Remi this and I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theatre school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand at 20 years later, we're digging deep re talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? And might be on board we might see. Might be and where it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35s): So
Speaker 2 (36s): Anyway, I'm ha I, it was, it's a rough day for, I, I learned something very unsettling, which is that 30% of the most, the world's most notorious serial killers or Virgos,
Speaker 1 (57s): You know, I kinda knew that because they always have these Facebook posts about what serial killers are. They're Virgos. Well, that's because they're perfectionist.
Speaker 2 (1m 6s): Well, I'll say this I, on the one hand, I'm going to say, I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (1m 13s): That's you're not. And in
Speaker 2 (1m 16s): Fact, I haven't even killed one person, much less multiple. And you know, like I was trying to bring myself to like, what is it? And I think maybe perfectionism, but really what I think it is. I sometimes just have this feeling of like, I can't access my empathy. Sometimes
Speaker 1 (1m 39s): I actually have a similar thing.
Speaker 2 (1m 41s): Okay. Sometimes I'm just like, this is objectively terrible with this, you know? And I feel nothing. I feel like I don't care at all. It's not co or maybe that that's always there, but I tend to my, I don't really know what, what, and I don't exactly know the mechanism of it. I just know that in my worst moments, I, I find it difficult to access my empathy.
Speaker 1 (2m 10s): So I, I hear that. And, you know, in my worst moments, I take pleasure and other people's pain. And so it's a similar thing, but it's not a blank thing. It's more of a, it's more of an active aggression thing. So that's interesting. And people are gonna be listening and be like, you both need real help be locked up.
But not that like, yeah, it's weird. I, I can, I can, I can totally relate to feeling like I should have empathy and I just can't and accesses, but here are the thing. Here's the thing too. I think if you have a childhood right. That where you are, I, or whoever is not allowed, doesn't get a lot of empathy then why are, how are we expected to learn, to be super empathetic to other people's shit?
Like, it just doesn't make any sense. And we've tried, we've done a lot of work on ourselves to create that sort of, to, to work that muscle. But it's, it's hard. Also people are fucking annoying.
Speaker 2 (3m 28s): Well, and I, there's another part of it too, which is that my instinct or my intuition about dishonesty is so way probably too finely tuned. So even if somebody is expressing a real pain, but they're amping it up for whatever reason, I, I feel that I immediately just can feel that.
And therefore, I just don't have the like ch and my husband and, and two of my kids are such intense empaths. They're just constantly like, oh, this is terrible. And that, and they feel, but it's wonderful when they do it for each other, you know, they're really validating of each other's pain. Whereas me and the other one, who's kind of like me are sort of like, yeah. I mean, whatever you fell, you fell down big, like get up, which is a combination of, you know, how I was raised and just sort of fits with my temperament too.
And my dad was a Virgo. Oh,
Speaker 1 (4m 37s): That's right. Yeah. It's interesting to think about Dennis and Virgo.
Speaker 2 (4m 41s): Yeah. Your blog
Speaker 1 (4m 43s): Was so great beans. Oh, thank you. Everybody. Look at the blog. It's so good. It's so good. And it's, so your writing is, it's just getting it. I can see like leaps and bounds of like how much it's progressed and just how detailed it's really like detailed. Like,
Speaker 2 (5m 6s): That's the thing. I like the most about things I write in things I read is that level of specificity specificity.
Speaker 1 (5m 13s): That's it? Totes specificity. Yep. So,
Speaker 2 (5m 17s): Anyway, what's going on with you? Well,
Speaker 1 (5m 20s): So, you know, I'm, I'm reading about artists management, not just for my fantasy about my neighbor's, but, but more yes. And us as a, as a, because who knows what them, I mean, you know, God bless them. They're their kids. I'm not gonna, but I did get this book and it is teaching me, it's called, you know, it's literally called artists management for the music business, but it applies to any business. And it's just taught because it's like that quote, I think it speaks to me because it's like, I'm sick of waiting for someone else to manage me as a writer or to manage us as a writing duo and trying to hit people up.
And so it's wait a second. Wait a second. I think it's comes from a place of trying to take back ownership as well of like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I can manage myself. I can manage us as a duo. Like let me learn. There's some tricks and tips and things about business in there, but it's important. I think to take owner, I think this is for me a year of like taking ownership of all my shit and all the good stuff and all the wonky stuff and saying, no, man, I can, I can learn on my own.
You're not going to help me. Okay. Well, I'm going to help myself. So that's what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (6m 32s): And as I've continued watching, keeping up with the Kardashians, I can say you, you and Chris Jenner have something in common and it's this perfect blend of being so, so, so connected and, and empathic and kind of, and savvy just really savvy and sort of shrewd. Right? So,
Speaker 1 (6m 53s): So that's good as a manager. Well, I want to manage, thank you. I really, I really appreciate it. And I also hope that it, that it calms down the part of me that feels I need someone else to come in and save or fix me or help me in a way. And look, we all need help, but there is a there, and I had this as an actor at the theater school. It was like, if someone just discovered me, if someone just took me under their wing and made and championed me in a way.
But when I say championed, the sort of underdeveloped part of me means be my mother. I mean, like, let's be honest. Like that's what I'm really talking about when it gets to that intense needy, grabby kind of feeling. That's what I'm looking for. And my mother never was able to do that. And she's dead now. And it's never good if your mom's your manager anyway, as an adult. So like, let's put that to right. But that's when it comes from.
Speaker 2 (7m 50s): And since to me, just once and yeah, every, I mean that, that's the single hardest thing about having parents who aren't that mature is like, this need that you, what you have as a child is a real, very important need to be taken care of. You just never get that. You just never, ever get that. Because even when you're in a situation with a person who loves you and you're in a committed relationship, there is a part of you that never trusts anybody else to take care of you.
So you make, I mean, you know, that's fine and taking care of yourself, it's fine. But that there isn't a really innate need that people like us have, you know, just based just a very basic thing. Like you just really weren't cared for enough in your yeah.
Speaker 1 (8m 36s): And, and there's that book that's like, I remember even as a kid really relating to it, there's a key book about a duckling that goes up to every animal and says, Are
Speaker 2 (8m 46s): You My Mother? Yeah. And,
Speaker 1 (8m 49s): And that book touched me a deep on me and I still, I shouldn't take a look at it and like it and see how it still feels. But I remember being like, that's how I feel. What I felt like was that the mother, the mother, either it wasn't in the story or whatever, what didn't make a big enough deal about the little baby coming back.
Speaker 2 (9m 10s): That's true. That's true. Yeah. She was just like, oh, Hey.
Speaker 1 (9m 15s): Instead of like, I miss you, what are you doing? And of course that was missing. And that was what was missing in my life. This is getting deep with doctors. Did I ever tell you about
Speaker 2 (9m 28s): The, have we ever discussed on the podcast or otherwise, I guess the children's book, I love you forever. All right. There is a children's book and it's our real litmus test. If you ask somebody, if they know about this book, how they feel about it says a lot, it's a story of a little boy. And the mother is saying, and it goes from the time that child is a baby. Like, I'll love you forever. I'll never the message on every page. And I'll never stop loving you. Even when you do this, even when you do that.
And it goes all the way through to the, the son is an adult and he's living in his own house with his own family. And she comes to his house while he's sleeping in the middle of the night to cradle him.
Speaker 1 (10m 14s): Oh my God, that's the most beautiful thing I've ever witnessed, heard in my life. So, and so there
Speaker 2 (10m 21s): You go. Now I know how you feel about that and that story to that story to me. And it's so creepy,
Speaker 1 (10m 28s): Creepy, but the way you said it was kind of not creepy, like
Speaker 2 (10m 33s): Yeah. Maybe it should. Maybe it, maybe it's something about re no. Oh. And by the way, I, it's not a judgment either way, if you feel creeped out by it, or if you don't feel creeped out, it's just very interesting.
Speaker 1 (10m 45s): I also don't know why she's crying, getting in the bed. She gets in the bed. Yeah, no, no, that part I don't go for, but I like the Paul Simon part of, you know, in the song, there was a, a man, he had a son, he, he, you know, he travels all the way back to tell him all the things for the reasons, for the things he's done. And he gets there and then he sees the kids sleeping or the boys sleeping and just instead, just turns around and leaves basically. And that's basically, that is more sentimental to me.
But, but yeah, I think it's good that she, I feel like it is beautiful that she has the impulse to tell him, I don't think she should get in the bed, but okay.
Speaker 2 (11m 26s): Yeah. Right. Right. Well, you know what? It would be a gorgeous story if at the end. Yeah. Just like what you're saying. She, she, first of all, maybe if like he called call's, but also if she gets there and, and she says, okay, well he's in his house with his family. My, my job here is done. It's done
Speaker 1 (11m 48s): My job. My job
Speaker 2 (11m 51s): Of literally cradling you is, but more, or
Speaker 1 (11m 55s): The other thing is like, the way that story might be more beautiful to me is if I thought you were going to say, because of my experience with my mom, that the w that the mom gets sick and right before she dies, she says to the son, I will love you forever and then drops dead, because that would be
Speaker 2 (12m 12s): So, you know, that would, that would be very touching to me. It, I it's, it's fine until
Speaker 1 (12m 16s): You boundary it's the boundary
Speaker 2 (12m 19s): Issue. And that's, I think that's what it kicks off for me is like, that's bad, very funny. And by the way, speaking of my blog, I, I'm very nervous about whether or not a certain of my family members have read it and what they might think. This is a very tough thing about personal writing. You really have to trust, tread this very fine line, and I can see why people, you know, struggle with this and wait until people and their families to, you know, to write about, oh,
Speaker 1 (12m 51s): It's much easier to do a solo show about your family. Let me run this by you. So let me run this by you. Okay.
Speaker 2 (13m 6s): Okay. We had an experience with a friend who, you know, is going somewhere in their career and is being advised to, you know, boost themselves up by surrounding themselves with doing their work with influencers. Oh, yes. Which makes perfect sense to me. I'm I imagine that's probably in the artist management book, you know, you've got to, you've got to basically leverage people to level up yourself and that's just a good, bad or indifferent.
That's just what it is. And it's interesting because this person was saying to us, you know, we're, we're having to do all this work with influencers and it doesn't really feel like it's working and would, I mean, I don't know what they mean by that, but I just started thinking, yeah, things do start to fall apart in something that you love. That's creative when you have to alter it for the shirt, money and money of it all.
And then in a broader sense, it just made me wonder, like, where is Influencer culture going? You know, we can only have so many YouTube stars, right? Like fame and whatever has to be, you know, a very tiny subset of the population. Everybody can't be famous. So where is it go? I mean, is it just like, there's infinite room for influencers and there's infinite money.
I think
Speaker 1 (14m 45s): It's going to Peter out. I think what's going to happen is I do. I don't think we can sustain level of vapid newness. I just don't think it's sustainable. It can sustain for a while, but I think that Influencer culture is going to Peter out and it's going to be more of, it's going to, I think, watch we'll listen to this and be like, oh my God, Jen was ridiculously off, but that it's going to swing back to more organic, authentic culture. I think it has to, because we can't, this is, you know, it's, it's absurd to cater a whole business or a whole mission statement towards people that have no skill other than they're famous.
Speaker 2 (15m 33s): Honestly. And I, I really wonder about how these people get their money. Like the one my daughter's obsessed with is it's actually like a very lovely thing. It's a guy called Mr. Beast who gives away hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like his videos are all about giving away. Like I saw she was watching one where he had to give he, okay, now he sometimes it's that he gives away the money. And other times is that he makes it a challenge for somebody else to give something away.
And he only, and that person only wins a certain amount of money. If they like this one, he had this kid who was in high school, he had to give away, he had two hours to give away 300 cars. So he had to call and get 300 people to come and, and take these cars. And I'm like, yeah, but where did he get the money to do that? He's like 20. And he's in his early twenties. I don't know what the very beginning of it was, but it's YouTube. It's YouTube sponsorship. It's YouTube dollars that allow him to then give more money that allow him to get more money, you know?
So he's, he's making his bank off of, but things like he bought his brother a new house. And the way that he set that off as a surprise was the, he filled his brother's old house with elephant toothpaste. Like he had these machines that were Nvidia cameras linked up to watch that were shooting elephant toothpaste. So, and then it just expanded and it was just all this green foam coming out of the house
Speaker 1 (17m 8s): And everybody's laughing like,
Speaker 2 (17m 9s): Oh, this is so great. And then he got a new house and I'm thinking, yeah, but he just wasted this other house.
Speaker 1 (17m 14s): And he wasted Ellis elephant toothpaste. There could be a crisis, but yeah, no, I think that, it's interesting that he, that, that this, this guy, Mr. Beast, he is mixing like a do gooder thing with, with excess culture and Influencer culture. It's real weird, but I think we're swinging back towards helping. I hope maybe this is just wishful thinking of like swinging back. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17m 44s): Yeah. Well, and I, I also learned, forget something podcasts I was listening to. I heard the whole Kylie Jenner, billionaire thing talked about and have a little more clarity. I don't have all my questions answered, but it, it was a joke put out there by a comedian, a problematic comedian called the fat Jewish who apparently steals everybody. Oh yeah. I've heard that. What I still don't know is did he get money and what did he do with it?
So he's a shady guy. So maybe so it was kind of what I was saying. I had originally thought that whoever it was just got the money and then used it for, you know, for themselves. But yeah, it's, it's not sustainable. We can't keep going. And this direction,
Speaker 1 (18m 36s): We just can't. There's not, you said it. There's not, there's not
Speaker 2 (18m 39s): Enough resources. Yeah. Yeah. So, so kids, if you want to be an influencer tic TAC, no pun intended, but you have very little time left. I think on this influencer landscape before, and I'll
Speaker 1 (18m 55s): Get a job and job
Speaker 2 (18m 59s): Go to college, go to college, learn how to do something. Even if
Speaker 1 (19m 5s): You go to theater school, even if you go to freaking conservatory, go and get a degree or go learn something, go B weird and college and learn some social skills
Speaker 0 (19m 25s): Today. And the podcast we're talking with, Kevin Fox, Kevin Fox was an acting major at the theater school at DePaul university. And when he graduated, he went on to continue to do theater. And he's also a director and he has a solo show and it went to the French festival and he has a podcast. He does many things. He's one of which is incredible, incredible. And personations when people, he's just a delight to talk to. So please enjoy our conversation with Kevin Fox.
Speaker 2 (19m 55s): I have to start though. Congratulations, Kevin Fox, you survived theater
Speaker 3 (19m 59s): School and
Speaker 1 (20m 3s): Working your butt off. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20m 5s): You're working your whole entire, but off.
Speaker 4 (20m 9s): I'm always trying to work it off. It's really about management.
Speaker 1 (20m 16s): That was like a course. They taught later at the theater school. They started teaching, but management and I think it's called failed.
Speaker 2 (20m 22s): I failed that. I failed that class, but yeah. Okay. So wait, Kevin, right before you came on, I was just telling Bob and I was just listening, listening to your podcast.
Speaker 4 (20m 31s): Oh my God. And,
Speaker 2 (20m 33s): And I listened, I only heard the first 10 minutes of your interview with Otto and high school. But as you, you, you have to listen to this. Here's some choice quotes. I start my day off with astrophysics. I didn't, he was in high school when he plays. He says, I plays baritone sax. I feel like it's the most casual sex. That's fantastic. You interviewed
Speaker 4 (21m 3s): A high school. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21m 5s): He said,
Speaker 2 (21m 7s): I, this is the most laid back gym, Christian Slater. He has like a Christian Slater in Heather's Caden stone.
Speaker 4 (21m 20s): He's he's a very cool cat. Jen, do you know what this show is?
Speaker 1 (21m 26s): It's called w w and there's a swear word in it, right?
Speaker 4 (21m 30s): It is. Are we do we
And what is, what a weird way to what a weird way to spend your time to learn how to do that. And then I'm also interested in like, how does that, how does that form you as a person when you, when you do a thing for a while, how does that
Speaker 1 (22m 24s): It's fantastic. I can't wait to hear. And I saw it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22m 27s): So I was like, I want to know what's going on in the mind of a high school student today. Mmm. But
Speaker 2 (22m 33s): How did you pick that? I mean, do you know him? So
Speaker 4 (22m 37s): I had been doing my show for a while and I was at a, a rock concert at Metro and I know his mom and she's in the business. And his mom was there with her husband, who is his dad and him. They took him to the show and I was like, this is a cool fucking family. Oh my God, dude,
Speaker 2 (22m 59s): Anybody who names, their kid auto is already interesting. And I
Speaker 4 (23m 2s): Will tell you that Otto is not his name and his, his chosen pseudonym. There is a, there, there is. There's a reason why he, he chose that. That has to do with like a joke in their family, I guess. Oh, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23m 19s): Well, anyway, check out Kevin's podcast. How the fuck do you do that? Which is based. So, so you're like obsessed with Studs, Terkel or something. Is that why you have well, show with that? And that's about that. So
Speaker 4 (23m 33s): Is not maybe, maybe the word I would use. So, I mean, it's, it's sexual, definitely my interest in Studs, Terkel, but Mmm. But I think obsession is taking it too.
Speaker 1 (23m 48s): I was like, we are really going down a rabbit hole this morning. My obsession is sexual Studs. Terkel is something I never thought I'd hear in a million years, but I love it. Okay. Keep going. So you, Studs Terkel is, is the jam I wouldn't know about sexually, but yes.
Speaker 4 (24m 6s): So yeah, my first experience with I've I experienced is not the right word to use. It's too late. You're all in. And I saw I'm all in. So I saw Betsy Hamilton directed working, and that was my first exposure to Studs Terkel. And then I read, you know, I auditioned for adaptations of a book he did called race. And then I, I really got into listening to him on the radio and was really interested.
I liked the idea that he wanted to talk to regular people and I've since always felt like, oh, talking to famous, people's kind of dumb. Like, it's really hard to hear an interview with a famous person, especially now where they're talking about anything other than fame. When was that? Like, what was that like being like, see, you got like this lead and that's like, when was that light? Like, wow,
Speaker 2 (25m 4s): How did you put that? Like I auditioned.
Speaker 4 (25m 12s): So I love the idea of talking to regular people and, and talking about jobs w you know, working as a is about that. And the idea of like creating characters from regular people's jobs was a seed for me. And then I directed this play called Hughie by Eugene O'Neill, which is a one act. And it was kind of inspired. He, he was gonna do a series of nine short plays that were all based on the idea of an occupation.
And he wanted them to be regular, regular people jobs. So this first one, Huey was a night clerk, and it was, it was centered on the idea of this night clerk and sort of a rundown used to be fancy hotel. And then there was going to be one about a may. There was a series of nine, but he passed away before he finished it. But I worked on that play and I loved the idea of getting in the mind of this character. Charlie, how loud is that noise for you guys? Don't worry.
You're going to hear a baby occasionally as well. Oh,
Speaker 1 (26m 18s): I hope it's your baby. It is. Okay.
Speaker 4 (26m 21s): People say he looks like me enough that I'm like, yeah, he's mine.
Speaker 1 (26m 25s): Okay, good. Okay. All right.
Speaker 4 (26m 27s): I'm glad I love getting in the mind of that character. There's all this, there's all this stillness in that play. And I loved as the director, I got to choose. Like, we're just spending time with you. You are completely out to lunch in moment, and that's all we're doing. You're looking out the window and you're thinking about how fucking boring your life is right now. And we're just going to sit with you and that for a minute. And I love that. And it's so neat, right?
Speaker 2 (26m 58s): Pardon the interruption. I Survived Theatre School listeners' and pardon the poor audio quality of this recording. I am making this recording from a room in a house where I do not live in a town where I do not live in a somewhat difficult circumstance. I am editing this episode of our podcast, and we had quite a lot of technical difficulties with Kevin's audio, which were not discovered in enough time to rerecord with Kevin.
And in any case, we had such a great conversation that we didn't want to rerecord, but that is why I am here and this random room without my good audio equipment pausing to tell you that the next part of this interview is going to sound disjointed, and there's no way to cover it up or make it sound better. Pretend like it didn't happen. And in a way, I guess that's okay because it did happen.
And lots of really weird things have happened to me and the last several days. So it makes sense to me that this would be the next one. Anyway, we'll be picking up this interview. It's still excellent. After this. It just may seem out of context.
Speaker 4 (28m 25s): You always have to go with, you know, w what, what, what are the words say? But if you're looking to really flesh out what the inner life of a character is, it's so fun. It's a fun inroad to think about. Well, what if, what if I was in a heavy machinery construction, six days a week for 20 years? How does it change my body? How does it change my mind and relationship to sound? You know, if you're constantly having to muffle sound like all those things are so interesting to me.
And so also in fucking theater school, I knew it was in Jim O's class and the last year, and I guess, was his class called exit? Or was his class called something else? I feel like Bill's was called exit. And GMO's was called making you feel, making you feel bad about yourself,
Speaker 2 (29m 18s): Cry. Cause he'd hit you if you did it on the
Speaker 4 (29m 24s): Awkward, awkward conversations with gender, but it was, there were some great questions ask and that class, and I, you know, not my favorite, maybe demeanor, always, but I really appreciated his conviction to like, answer this question for yourself. This is important. You think, you know everything, but really think about this. I like those questions. And one of the things I wrote down in some exercise was in his class was I have a one man show in me.
I don't really know what it is, but I know I'm going to do a one man show. I know I'm gonna write and perform a one man show one day and I don't know what it is, but it's a, it's something I know I'm gonna do. And I had a few things like, kind of is that when they come together with the rivers confluence yes.
Speaker 1 (30m 18s): Is that the wording virgins, maybe convergence
Speaker 4 (30m 21s): Confluence. It was a con of some kind, these, some things came together. And I had a story about a tour that I was on that I had already written about a couple of times. It is a bat shit crazy experience. And I knew I had so many details from it because I had already written about it, including in the moment and years later. And there was a moment in my life in 2018 where I realized, oh, this is the show.
And it was a connection between how my experience on that tour changed me and how being an actor. Like I had a, you know, kind of a different level of awareness of what doing this for so long has done to me, both positive and negative and, and also, and awareness of what somebody else's job who's close to me had done to them. And are you saying
Speaker 2 (31m 22s): It was a touring show or you went on a, like a tourist?
Speaker 4 (31m 26s): It was a Shakespeare. It was a Shakespeare tour. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It was a tour from hell. It was, I had horrendous.
Speaker 2 (31m 33s): Yeah. Okay. So, oh, all right. So, so you, so your one man show is about that.
Speaker 4 (31m 40s): It's about how jobs change people over time. So I created, I created the character of a sociologist and then the sociologist introduced the concept of what this is and about professional defamation. And then he talks about it as research. And then he presents, depending on which version of the show, 5, 6, 7 different people, all of them I played. And they were, some of them were based on direct interviews. Others were sort of calming. The people were combinations of that interview with this person.
And then it turns out that the characters insist that he has a relationship to this as well. And then he tells his own story. And that's the, that's the show and drinking and unemployment as a joke that the, that the actor makes. So the act one of the tent poles of the show is the story of this crazy fucking tour and his drinking unemployment is that anyway, the reason for the title gets revealed, gets revealed later in the show.
Speaker 2 (32m 47s): And this show is going to be in the fringe festival. Right. And
Speaker 4 (32m 50s): It was last year. And it's just still on my email tag because I never changed it because what else am I promoting? I just left
Speaker 1 (32m 58s): Last year meeting. It's happened in the pandemic in 2019. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Speaker 4 (33m 6s): And we're into we're well into 2021 now Kevin, and then we
Speaker 2 (33m 10s): Seriously, how, what, what, how was that experience? You went to Scotland and did your show, it
Speaker 4 (33m 15s): Was a dream come true. And like all dreams come true. There was all kinds of parts of it. I hadn't thought about it and thought like, oh, that would be an issue.
Speaker 2 (33m 29s): Like you don't like how, I guess very much
Speaker 4 (33m 32s): I did not have any haggis. I tried it once when I was there 20 years ago. And that was, I was, I was all set up. Yeah. What
Speaker 1 (33m 39s): Kind of things I'm and I had a one person show that went to New York and like, I, when I did that, so many things came up that I was like, oh, marketing, oh, people, I had a pillow. I had like that kind of thing going on. But, but tell me about your one person show and Scotland. Like the things that were like, oh, I didn't think of that. And so
Speaker 4 (34m 3s): I didn't think about how like strategy of venue. I was kind of late to getting my venues. So I didn't have the, the selection that I would have liked and where I should have been is what they call. Maybe they call it free fringe, or there's a couple different, there's a couple of different umbrellas that you can sort of be under. But basically people come to the show for free. You give a speech at the end and they, they tip you and you actually, you don't pay for the space and they don't pay to see your show.
And it for a one person show, many people will tell you like, dude, you have to do that. You will come out so much better in the end. And all those slots were gone. So I was like getting a slot. And what I didn't really understand was that the presenter that I was working with was except for me entirely presenting stand up. And so I was in a multi space venue as, as almost all of them are, there were stand-ups.
I was the first one of the day at four 40, but it was all stand-ups after me. There were standups going on around me. So I would have laughs wow. I room and peop when people saw the title of the show, the title was a big hit. People thought the title was really fucking funny. And over there, they don't know who Studs Terkel. And so over there it was called drinking and unemployment a play about work. What pretty funny.
So people love the title, but people would think it was stand up because of who the presenter was because it's a popular presenter has been there forever and they do stand up. And I just didn't, I wasn't quite clued into that. And they would show up drunk and I had four and 40. I thought if I'm before dinner, I'm going to be okay. And my thing wasn't stand up. Like it was a play and it was a full 70 minutes of one dude thing about a one person show is you're not going to surprise him with another person.
Speaker 1 (36m 10s): I surprised him when I say it again. And you're like, it's just me against
Speaker 4 (36m 15s): Me. Just the guy on the postcard there. I mean, I had lots of different dialects, which were super fun, but it really was just me. And then like, Ooh, a coat this time. Ooh. A different glass and where they heckling. But no, but like you could literally smell the alcohol sometimes or people would bring it and they would be drunk and have like fried food left-overs with them and the front row. But some people just love the show and we're totally tuned into it.
But the like the biggest surprise was, oh, this is the wrong venue. It was also a way to big room. Like I needed to be in a 40 seat room where it could be really intimate. I did the show 30 times in Chicago in different places, in different bars and art galleries. And it works really well when people are right there and I can really see people's eyes and this is a more cavernous room. So that, that, wasn't my favorite thing. And also like the press is so, so stupid.
People press starts soliciting you to pay them to come to your show. That's and that's a thing that was happening. And like it's so hard to get them to come. And then papers will send people who are totally unqualified summer pop music critic to see an avant-garde show. I mean, just stupid shit like that. That isn't ideal. But so those are the, like I would do this differently next time. The spirit of it is incredible. I love seeing the shows.
I saw some unforgettable shows. I loved being surrounded by like everybody was there for, for the love of the game. I mean, very few people are making money there. Everybody is there to celebrate something. And the weirder, it is the more at home that sort of feels they're. And I love Scottish dialects and I love dialects in general and being surrounded by people from all over the world. Really, really cool
Speaker 2 (38m 17s): That, I mean, that's a, that would be a dream come true. That would be a fantastic experience. I can imagine. I fun fact about Studs Terkel. He interviewed Dr. Bela and Joe slowish, and that interview is available through the what's it called the history museum in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (38m 38s): I forget what it's called. History of society. Custom circle. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38m 43s): Yeah, it was very good. I also saw a musical version of working that made me wish I had never been born. It was the, one of the worst things I've ever seen in my entire life. And it was very insulting somehow. I, I, I, I really couldn't make heads or tails of it, but I love the book. I went to see it because I loved the book in any case. And if about Studs, Terkel. So let's hear more about you and how you ended up at a conservatory, how you picked DePaul, where are you from?
Speaker 4 (39m 18s): Did you, and then high school level I'm from Asheville, North Carolina. I started doing, I broke my, I was a baseball player and I broke my wrist in a game and then ended up playing a role. Like somebody talked me into playing like a one line role and a play and then started doing plays and then got much more Intuit in high school. And then I started going to this, what do they call it? Like a magnet school, a drama class at a magnet school. And this teacher, like the way she talked about it.
And she was just like warm and inviting in terms of how, how much more there was in theater and in the art of acting. And I got really attached to it. And to that class, it became very important to me. And she was, she was really well-informed about how to, you know, if you want to pursue this in terms of a program in college, he was really well-informed about that.
And we kind of talked about goals and she took me to there's showcase that it was a ball state. It was some kind of conference. It was, I forget what the name of it was, but she took me one year just to, just to see it. I mean, there would be a group of kids that would go every year and they would sometimes be doing a show, but I went, I went along one year just to see it and see what the audition set up was like. Cause you could audition for a bunch of colleges at once. And then, but like I did a, a technical internship at a M and a summer theater just to, she was like, you should know this and programs might be interested that you wanted to expand your knowledge or you just want to act.
Yeah. Wow. What a great teacher. And I, I love, I thought it was really fascinating. It didn't make me want to go into tech, but I was really glad I had that time that I, that I spent real time on that side of things. So then I went and auditioned and I met John Bridges and Melissa Meltzer and oh my God, I can see her face. Jen and Jen. Hm, Hm Gen-X and she, and I had like something or some fun piercings.
Speaker 1 (41m 43s): Oh Jen, Jen Smith. Jen, I know when you talk about yet, but she had, she had crazy hair. And so I loved those people
Speaker 4 (41m 53s): And I met them. And so that was DePaul became one of the schools I was looking at and I literally took a bus to go to SUNY purchase and Otterbein and DePaul and then somewhere and Evansville, Indiana. I think I took a Greyhound from Asheville and like went to those places and auditioned and met with people. And, and I love the idea of like conservatory just seemed like it's, it's so crazy, but that sounds like it would be really fun.
I would, I would like the deep dive and there was, you know, some liberal arts requirements and my parents were, they were not, they weren't unsupportive, but they were very questioning. And, and my favorite question that every adult thing says original, but what are you going to fall back on? And my feeling then, and now is the more you flesh out your plan of what you're going to fall back on. The more sure you can be that that is where you're going to go.
And, and that was, that's why I wasn't really like, I didn't question it. I should've questioned it. It's it's what a silly, what a crazy choice to make.
Speaker 1 (43m 23s): Well, when a crazy choice to make is taking a gray house. And were you alone?
Speaker 4 (43m 31s): My 16 year old daughter, I did it when I was 16 and 17 and it was somewhere in there. I can't imagine letting my daughter do that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I did it. And you didn't, we're not interested in paying for it. We were lower middle-class and, and I, even one of the schools even like offered me actual money to go there. Like, you know, we're going to cover it. And I didn't think I'd be able to afford to POL, but I got, and I got zero talent scholarship money, and just want to make very clear.
I never benefited from that, but I got a full academic scholarship. So yeah.
Speaker 1 (44m 20s): I didn't even know that existed. I wouldn't because I wasn't an academically because I'm going to go do it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44m 30s): How cool. So you had done acting in high school, but how did that compare with what it was actually like in the training there? And we talked a lot about how doing plays in high school doesn't mean you have any idea what you're doing. Oh,
Speaker 4 (44m 47s): It was completely, completely different. I mean, it was in the magnet school and it was much, and the magnet school was much more, you know, interesting and like less kind of below the surface stuff. And then my high school program was, but none of it was close to what theater school was. It was all new.
Speaker 1 (45m 11s): So were you like the guy wearing jeans in yoga or were you more like, no, I can roll with it and I am gonna, and I know what this is and I'm going to go for it at DePaul. Okay. So the guy wearing jeans and yoga is like the guy who wears jeans and a belt in yoga because they have no idea what the hell yoga is. And they think yoga is some kind of middle Eastern food maybe. And they go, they show up, hung over smelling of beer or, or not necessarily, but could be hung over and, and maybe are wearing a flannel shirt in yoga.
And we're thinking of a very specific that I know the first one is, so I'm just wondering, were you that, or were you like me? Who's like, oh yeah, I've heard the term yoga. So I'm going to pretend like I know what yoga is and I'll wear some sweat pants. I still have no idea. And I'm still petrified or maybe when you're own brand. Let's see, we had our version
Speaker 4 (46m 10s): Of the jeans guy, but I mean, a couple of people like that, they didn't actually wear jeans, but, but now I understand what you mean by the jeans guy. I wasn't the jeans guy. I was, I had read somewhere. You need to have, like, in one of the syllabus, like, you know, you need to have movement appropriate, whatever. And I was like, well, I got to go get some movement pants. And at some store I got two, two pairs of pants, which I, I mean, I wore them completely out at school cause I wore them for any kind of class where they're there.
I mean, I wore them to voice class. Sometimes I wore them to all my movement classes and I wore them to yoga. If I dunno, like I would wear short, sometimes yoga and figured out like, oh, this pair of shorts is okay. But they were, they, I swear they weren't in the pajama section, but they were like thin and they were plaid and I became known for wearing them. Yes.
Speaker 1 (47m 12s): I think I remember you wearing, and I remember her wearing them. Oh my goodness. But you know, something, you're making
Speaker 2 (47m 23s): Me realize that men in the nineties, you did not have very many, it's not like it is today where there's a ton of like act athletes or jeans or shorts or pajamas, or like dance
Speaker 4 (47m 39s): Specialty where I could never afford it at the time. So it was like, whatever I can move and that's fine. But yeah.
Speaker 2 (47m 50s): What about the cultural differences between North Carolina?
Speaker 4 (47m 53s): So much like to live in the city? Uber Washington at the time was, I mean, now you, you can't get a house there, but at the time it was extremely conservative, extremely old money. And my drama teacher was literally chased out of town for directing the Lee blessing, play independence that had lesbians in it just because there were lesbians in it, they chased her out of town. It was ridiculous. So it was very that th there was, there was a, there was a small percentage of the town that was really into, there was a music scene and there was like a crystal scene.
People come from all over the world to go to this for Crystal's. And, but, but it was very small, small town and the city was totally overwhelming, but I did feel like this is all part of my education. Like just this, this is happening. And that is a guy and he is asking me for money and oh, no. Oh, this is how, this is the thing. Now that's a real thing. Oh my God, hi. Oh, you know, like, I, I had like full on panic.
Like, what am I saying? Like, am I endangering myself here? That person is really hurting and I am gonna cry and I am totally crying and I'm not giving him money because I don't have any money, but I'm just looking at this guy and I'm crying and saying, I'm so sorry. And I'll look for you again. And like, it was the emotional impact of that was a lot. And just like, you know, the kind of seedier side of this is literally 30 years ago now when I was here, like downtown, when, like when we were, we'd go to the Blackstone, like a, you know, it's different down there.
Like Lincoln park is real nice. And it was that it is now and downtown is different. And like being on the subway and being on the subway light very intense. I've never seen anything like it. And I don't think there are people who I now realize were gay in high school. I'm sure. I didn't know of anybody who was like definitely gay and out. Yeah, they were, but it wasn't talked about, and it was really cool to be in a place where there were, I loved, I've always wanted to be in a more diverse place.
And I loved being around more diversity. I love the, I know what it is now, but at the time DePaul's motto, like they made you go to a DePaul thing and it was like celebrate celebrating diversity. And like, we got a shirt with a rainbow on it before, like there were rainbows everywhere all the time. That was like the logo of their motto. And there was a, you know, like it was like a mission of the school day or workshop or whatever everybody had to go to. And I was like, this is great.
I love that. I don't, you know, I'm not into Catholicism in any way. I'm not into organized religion, but I don't have a problem being here. This seems like a pretty loving environment, you know, that's great. So I loved the diversity and I loved, and you know, of, of people from different places and also people who were definitely gay and definitely straight and definitely really old school and definitely like totally alternative lifestyle. That was fascinating to be around all that. And it was, it all my, my, I think what you're asking is like, when my, my approach to it was like, yes, this is education.
This is, this is a new world. I've experienced it here. Yeah. Yes. What
Speaker 1 (51m 38s): I, what I remember about you and your, besides your pants was like, was, was like a really earnest desire to learn and be a part of, and you, for me, we weren't, you know, we weren't necessarily friends, but I knew that you were a friendly person and also really, you seemed eager and open. And I, I still get that from you. And I think that that is that's really interesting, cause that's just, that's not my experience.
So how was the training for you? Like how did you feel the training in classes at the theater school was like, where you, like, I got this improv is my jam. Or like, no, or
Speaker 4 (52m 19s): First I just want to say thank you. That's very nice. I'm glad it came across that way. That, that is, that is how I've felt. And that's how I feel in general. And after being in the theater business for, for this long I'm way more jaded in some aspects of it. But I am, I am eager and I am open. Look, what, what his name was? John Ransford Watts was the Dean at the time. And he gave, he gave some speech on the first day and he was like, we're not, we're not promising you, that we're going to make you successful, but I am promising you that when you leave here, you will have the tools to do what you want to do.
And what happens when you leave is up to you, but we're going to give you the tools. And I, I appreciated that as a frame, I needed a frame and I, I tried to look at everything through that lens. Like, this is a part of, this is something I, I may not understand this upfront, but I got to go with it because it's kind of become tool, short story. Yeah. I got, I got exactly that short story. I accidentally picked the perfect program for myself.
I, I loved 90%. I love 95% of my teachers. And 95% of what I got from those classes. My improv teacher was extremely harsh. First year at the time was all improv. And basically, no, you didn't do, you were doing, you did improv, you did voice, you did movement and you did not do any kind of performance other than scenes in a classroom.
And improv was three days a week. And it was a long class and he was an extremely harsh t-shirt teacher and would say really hurtful things to people sometimes. And I had a bristling response to his approach initially. And I, and I think about it differently now, like the teacher would not exist now. He does exist. But like, he wouldn't be able to teach in that way now because people would just sort of, you know, collectively report things that he said, and he would be instantaneously fired, but you know, he wasn't, he wasn't ever physically abusive, but he was like verbally way over the top with people.
But there were also times when I would be like, she's a total fuck-up and she's not taking this class seriously and she's wasting our fucking time. And I'm so glad you said that to her because what, right, right.
Speaker 1 (55m 27s): Yeah. I mean, I think that, that's what I'm learning from listening to you and listening to other people. And as we do these interviews, it's like, there is there the gray area, and this is so dense. The gray area is like a huge country, you know? And it is sometimes the, the a-hole or the whatever says the right thing. Sometimes it works sometimes it's helpful. It's so crazy, which is think is what's so hard about being young and in a school like that.
And sometimes you get what you need. Right. Some but sometimes you don't anyway, so I can appreciate that. So, and
Speaker 5 (56m 8s): You were, you were also like, yeah.
Speaker 4 (56m 12s): He said things that made me laugh really, really hard. Sometimes I just didn't expect that he would say funny things. He had a very interesting sense of humor. I wanted his approval so badly. I wanted to tell me I was good so badly, and I did not think I was any good at this shit. I mean, it was real weird, those exercises and it, as, as many of the classes, they're not telling you, they don't give you the frame beforehand to explain what to look for.
They simply insist that you follow these directions and the learning is experiential. You process it for a short period of time and then you move on. And I now really appreciate that. I really appreciate not taking a lot of time beforehand to tell me what I was going to learn and what to watch for. Cause you, you learn differently in that environment. And that was new to me. I appreciated that. And I also, in retrospect, really appreciate having tried to teach some of this shit.
Do you, did either of you ever go back and do the, the non-majors that the class where you taught non-majors
Speaker 2 (57m 26s): No buzz teaches the BFA for us and sometimes,
Speaker 4 (57m 32s): And the city of language that he would use and setting up and giving the focus for the exercises. Like that's not easy. And he, he was so good at managing time. I also appreciated that he cares about treating us fairly. He was really hard on her just now, but he cares about treating us fairly. And he, he gives, he's not quick to praise, but gives, gives it when it's warranted. I love the, the voice stuff was so weird and wonderful.
You know, people are crying in class every day, crazy. Shit's coming out like doing vocal Jam's and Phyllis's class. I will never, never forget that it was so strange and so cool to be in a group and completely let go. Also something they probably don't do in class today that at some point she had to stop doing was everybody gives everybody a full body massage for 10 minutes at the top of every class. Just to guess, Jen, did you, oh, you don't, you think they don't do that anymore?
Speaker 1 (58m 33s): No, I don't think they do beans. I think it's no touchy. No. Well,
Speaker 2 (58m 41s): Yeah. I mean, listen, I always hate the person who says, listen, you know, and he can't do anything anymore, but at the same time, I, there is something to be said for just the, the way in which, despite the trauma that was inflicted on a lot of people, the way in which we could just cut to the chase and just get to the heart of something and like have to not, not have to filter it through so many different lenses. And just to be able to say like, you're full
Speaker 1 (59m 10s): Of shit, you're full of shit. I don't believe what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (59m 12s): This is bullshit. Why don't you go out and like, learn and figure out who you are and then come
Speaker 4 (59m 17s): Back and something like that. And it can be your experience like, oh my God, she taught us all how to give, like the kind of full body massage we're going to give, which definitely involves rubbing the butts of the person. And that was, that was intense, like, and doing it like, ah, Hey, and I know, and this is not, I am not enjoying this just, and is this okay?
Sorry. And then, and then later, later, and a year, and then like the class really like the trust, you know, some people is less and then maybe the trust wasn't as strong, but there was a lot of trust that developed. But the fact that you had all the classes with all the same people, like the, what do they call it? The sections like keeping the sections together. Like that's just invaluable and yoga. First year I loved my teacher so much.
I loved that. It was part of the curriculum. I kept thinking that like, it's so smart that we're doing this so smart. The movement classes were amazing. Like we had and trees and, and her first year at the school, she's still one of my favorite teachers. I learned so much from her and Don OCO was a huge favorite. I feel like I'm just running through teachers. Is this horrible? Is this okay? Okay. So Don was one of my no, see, that's great.
That's great. Fussy. He was so, so slow to give compliments and so quick to just fuss and muss and fuss. And it was so exciting to feel like, I think I figured out what you've been trying to get me to do for the last six months, which I felt like I got to at one point in his class and it meant so much to me.
And I always knew, I dunno, like it took a month if the first month was like, you just hate everything. He, why are you doing this? You just hate this. You hate us. You hate you. You hate the school, you hate theater. What? And it took them a month before I realized, like, you love it so much. It really makes you mad to see people suck like this, and you want us to get it. And you have a limited way of asking for what you need here.
And it feels like a puzzle to be, I mean, a really hard puzzle to solve. Like, what the fuck are you asking me for? I don't know. And I'd be sitting on the sidelines. Like she does not know what you want. I, I know what she's thinking right now. And she doesn't know what you want differently. She doesn't know what you're saying
Speaker 1 (1h 2m 15s): And the way that you behave and at the end, our, on this podcast, you're a terrific actor. And I don't know that I've seen you act the other than when we read. You must see. And it really is something. Who are you in? And Tiffany?
Speaker 4 (1h 2m 34s): Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I was the second the guard. Okay. Oh
Speaker 2 (1h 2m 42s): Yes. Very. I remember that second garb. Did you care? Did you carry
Speaker 1 (1h 2m 46s): Sierra chair power off the stage? No, that's a different show. Nevermind. Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (1h 2m 51s): Different show. My cannon was the first guard he had lines and then, oh, I haven't said my Cannon's name and long time. I love my cannon,
Speaker 2 (1h 3m 2s): Jim, Jim calm cam. But is that somebody that we knew? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sorry, just that name just popped into my head. Like it was, I literally hadn't thought it in 25 minutes and I had to make sure I knew when I was talking about, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (1h 3m 19s): He had lines and then the second and third, I don't remember. Oh, I can see his face. Wait a minute. Maybe, maybe it was Alex Scooby also.
Speaker 2 (1h 3m 30s): Yeah. Alex and I were in it.
Speaker 4 (1h 3m 33s): T T J. Did he go by T J? Yeah, I think we were guards together.
Speaker 1 (1h 3m 39s): Okay. Probably where they regards. I know that for sure.
Speaker 4 (1h 3m 43s): Well then we regards together. Yeah. I thought they were, maybe there were four guards total and he, and my cannon was the one who talked anyway. We had hardly any lines. I don't know. It was my only experience working with Rick. Cause I didn't have Rick for improv. And he said, you know, like, and I remember going into the, like, whatever the meeting was about, you know, progress and the show or something. Like, I can't wait to hear this because I don't fucking do anything on this play.
And he said like, you don't, you don't make much of an impression. And I, you know, I felt like my job at school was to hear those things and to try not to take them personally and like really consider like, huh. Okay. Well, why would you, why would you say that in it?
I don't want to suggest at all that I wasn't also crushed. I, you know, I want him to be like, I think you're probably one of the better actors I've ever seen in my, but he didn't say that. And then he gave me a book called the inner game of tennis, which is a fucking amazing book. And it's so that guy, like he is a, there would have been this to tell somebody something, and then there's like the way, way around like that, like he was his conversations with actors as a director were like up to says the wrong word.
They were, it was like, it was, you know, like he did.
Speaker 1 (1h 5m 33s): And he did a lot of astrology and like, like around, not even, it was like a secret code he was speaking and
Speaker 4 (1h 5m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. So I obviously remember him telling me that and that book was a great gift and, and I, I know what he, now I know exactly what he meant, but also like, I mean, you literally have me standing up left for the only CNM and, and I only have one line. So how could I make an impression? Do, how much did you want me to make have an impression.
And I, I remember there was lots of smoke and, and, and the, in that, and that show and then watching soci work was really interesting, so she could work. And it's great. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (1h 6m 24s): And you were in Trojan women and time of your life, or I think those were those all your main stage.
Speaker 4 (1h 6m 31s): Yes. Except I was also in landscape of the body. John was directing that. I think this is my senior year and the, where my workshop or where my other show had fallen. I was already done when that show happened. So I had basically, if I was free and at some point during the year I approached John and was like, Hey, I think I'm free. Can I be in your show? Can I play one of the little roles?
And he was like, Hmm. Alright. And so I played the, the drugs, I think he was called the drug king of long island and a bike messenger. And then there was a third thing and I'm forgetting what it is now, but I had like a cool monologue as a bike messenger and like 30 minutes of makeup to get into the drug king of long island pictures of that.
It is amazing. Okay.
Speaker 2 (1h 7m 34s): If you, do you have the pictures or are they on the website? Because,
Speaker 4 (1h 7m 37s): And I can find it, like, I have a picture of me and Kelly, Bernie backstage when I'm in that I'm in that makeup. Yeah. And you find it. Yeah. And the I've already lost it. What was your name and the other Trojan
Speaker 2 (1h 7m 55s): Women and a time of your life or the other Tricia
Speaker 4 (1h 7m 58s): Trojan women. Do you want to just hear like impressions of these shows? Absolutely. So Trojan women, I was in it with my best friend and roommate when, one of my best friend's and roommate at the time Amy Farel and that was, and she's still one of my best friends. Like, and Leonard was in that as well. It was so fun and it was such a dark, dark fucking play. I remember I had the line don't hate me and drama key and running lines with her.
And it was just like a running joke that I would say kind of hate me and drama. K. We would say that we would say lines to each other all the time. I mean, I, I think when I said that to her in the play, I was having just returned. Oh shit. Oh yeah. I had just returned from killing her baby by bashing his head. Yes. And
Speaker 2 (1h 8m 54s): How you don't hate me oopsie
Speaker 4 (1h 9m 2s): The baby. Yeah. That one. And so what happened is I accidentally what had happened was I do remember, I mean, I have a killer picture of this to show you guy, it used to be I'm in my daughter's room. It used to be on this desk under the cover. I'll find it. I'll send you both of these. They're great. Are amazing. There's a picture of all of us covered in blood and mud and dirt, just smiling in the curtain, which actually may be it, that may be a shot you can see, cause that was a John Schott.
But I remember like getting ready to go on stage before that, like we would, you know, put, you know, streaks of mud and stuff on us, but I had to put a lot of blood on me and like, like I would imagine like that, but it had like wipe across there as like doing a huge mass of blood. I'm rubbing my hand across my chest and, and really alluring way if you're listening to this with, with blood. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (1h 10m 11s): Wow. Well,
Speaker 1 (1h 10m 14s): You're so fascinating that like, I want to be mindful of our time and I have questions about showcasing what happened after. So could you tell me about showcase? Did you think you were going to go and tell, and maybe you did and become a big star and I just don't know.
Speaker 4 (1h 10m 30s): Yeah. I'm secretly and Norton randomly famous. My, my, I can obviously, and whenever you guys want my, my heart out is 1130 and, and like 40 minutes. So I'm happy to go, you know, up until that if you guys need, so showcase was, we just did Chicago and LA, I think they had done New York and they were doing LA, they hadn't done it that many times yet. And we did it at the, what was, what was then called the Westwood Playhouse.
And yeah. You know, I S I would have loved it if something had happened and I'd, you know, an opportunity out there and, and we'd be totally lying if I didn't say like, yeah, it'd be pretty cool. Like, I was kind of secretly hoping for that, but my mission for myself when I started this, when I left home and went to school, when I was 17 to go to conservatory is I just want to be a working actor and I'm going to be thrilled any year.
I make my living doing theater. I want to do live theater. That's what I want to do. That's why I went to that program. That program was a really good program for live theater training. That's what I wanted. And therefore I had this sort of, it was probably protecting myself against the likelihood that you ain't going to be on T V man, but it's just not, you know what I mean? Like probably protect myself against that saying like, that's not what I want, but I was very, I mean, I did follow that in terms of action.
Like, I was really only ever pursuing like theater hard. I had, I had one really, anyway, I'll go back. So LA I did a monologue that I, that I wrote Don suggested for one audition. I was like, no, and they're, they're asking for like three minute comedic, you know, like, what am I going to do? I don't know. And he's like, you're a writer at you. And she writes something. And I was like, okay. And I wrote this piece.
Okay. Wow.
Mmm. But the stupid and I was, I had a pseudonym and I said, Timothy, Andrews wrote it. And I, how did you pick the most boring,
Speaker 1 (1h 13m 43s): Possible
Speaker 4 (1h 13m 45s): Andrews? And Andrew is my brother's middle name. And then Timothy, I thought sounded British. I mean, you're not wrong, but
Speaker 2 (1h 14m 0s): I've been so hung up on the fact that it was when you were also the writer.
Speaker 4 (1h 14m 5s): And, you know, in the years immediately following me, I heard several people had instant success as writers in Hollywood because they said they wrote their piece, which they did. And like, and, but it did very, very well. Like, it, it felt really amazing in that showcase. Like I kind of, you know, destroyed the room and it was, it was everything you could ever want in terms of how it went. And lots of people wanted to talk to me.
And I went to meetings with lots of people and my friends saw it was, it was, it was a fun time. I was out there with my friends, PJ and Seiler and, and Amy, I mean, the whole class is out there, but, you know, we were all hanging out and they were all excited for me that I got to go to these meetings and I still remember kind of what I wore to most of them. And it was just an error. I wish someone had, I wish someone had been like, no, no, don't, don't, don't don't wear that. Don't wear that.
But it was, you know, it was what I had and it seemed like a nice thing to wear. I felt fancy in it, but all the meetings were, and sometimes I would, the meeting would be with the person who actually saw me. And other times it would be somebody who worked for that person, but almost all the meetings were like, so when are you coming out here? And I was like, I'm a theater actor in Chicago. Like, but you know, like, what do you want me to do? You know, like I'm here now. And I can, you know, I may come out here again.
And I, I don't know why I thought those meetings were going to go any differently. And they're like, okay, we'll give scope when you come out here. And I remember writing postcards to all those people, like with my horrible handwriting, writing postcards and sending them to those people, none of whom interacted with me, of course. Why would you, but in w what are they gonna do? Write me a postcard back. I've been thinking about you, dear Kevin, dying
Speaker 2 (1h 16m 6s): For you to move back to LA. We're short
Speaker 4 (1h 16m 8s): On, but yeah, but I met in Chicago. I met a really good agent, the only good agent I've ever had and spoiled me completely. And he really believed in me and sent me out all the time. I got to go into audition at great theatres and got close and lots of stuff. And, you know, some, some TV film stuff and some commercial stuff and got close on some stuff. And then he, one of his, one of his actors, what Leonard was with him.
And, and I was like, it's really good if I had the same agent as Leonard. That means I have a really good agent. And, and also Judy, now Judy Greer was with him and she came out to LA and he came out to LA with her. So there went, my agent, there went, the only good agent I've ever had. Every other one was just, I didn't know that such a disappointment. Oh my God. None of them were close. He us all, he cared about us all. He got us.
And when we were supposed to be seen for something, he got us in. Hmm. Yeah. So that was the showcase experience, but it it's immediately, I was auditioning for shows at theaters that would have been hard to get into and just, it was a nice way to land in Chicago. So
Speaker 2 (1h 17m 33s): We've heard we've had Siler and PJ and Nick. So we've heard about sort of the formation of timeline. Were you in it from the very beginning? I
Speaker 4 (1h 17m 42s): Was never in it officially in any way. I wasn't asked to awkward and you know, I'm awkward. Wait, why are you on the timeline website? And I did two shows for them, but, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm not in the club. The club was like a meeting that Nick had. I swear. I think he actually had the first meeting when he and I were fucking roommates. I don't mean we were having sex with each other.
I mean that we were, we were roommates when the clubs started, but I'm, but I'm not sure. Yeah. But also you were
Speaker 2 (1h 18m 19s): In a picture that somebody sent us about the, somebody sent us a picture of like all the founding members of Beilein. And that was me and I were not wrong BAAs for being confused and a picture of a timeline situation.
Speaker 4 (1h 18m 37s): I'm photograph because we have a lot because I went to school with them and I know them. And I worked there in 2007 and then 2016, I directed shows for them. And the second show, and they did was a Howard Barker play that I pitched. I met Howard Barker. I met the writer, Howard Barker. I learned about his plays through bill Burnett at school. And he did this wild play. He was a dialect teacher and he directed this wild play called women who were women. And I thought the author was really interesting and became a huge fan of this author.
And I was like, PJ, I think this is the show. And I think this is the next play. And they programmed the show and I really, really wanted to be in it. And there was this amazing lead role. I think he's called Bella, but I'm not sure Stephen Davis got that. And then I got cast as a different role in the show, but then I got offered. But the day that it was going to start was like, really not sure, cause we don't have the space yet. Like they auditioned for it before they had us.
So it was sort of unsure. And then I got a definite offer to do translations with
I got to do this translations thing. Oh,
Speaker 2 (1h 20m 15s): Okay. So I mean, to be fair to timeline, you turned them down. There was no start date. Well, nothing you're wrong for doing, and I'm saying, it's not, it's not as if you were always pioneering to be in there shows and they, and they wouldn't have you, you're a big way. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (1h 20m 33s): And I always wanted to be in and was, you know, sad not to be in, but it was an interesting, but you know, Nick, Nick brought those people together to do particular things. And it was just an interesting journey, being friends with both those guys as they were and, and Juliette as well. And, and Laura, who later was part of it. Like, I'm so happy for you guys. I wish I could be in the, in the car with you for this, but I, you know, always remain really happy for there success.
And I'm really proud of the shows that I did there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (1h 21m 14s): And it's still going. I mean, there's, there's still hope for next season. So these days you are, what are you working on these days? So
Speaker 4 (1h 21m 27s): The, the podcast started before, like the idea for it was, I guess I was sort of thinking about it as I was going through the process of the Edinburgh thing like that, that the, the writing and workshopping and performing of that show was kind of like nine months of my life. And I started working on the podcast pretty soon after I got back, I wanted to make that a thing. And the pandemic happened started after I think I'd gotten like two episodes in, so I kept doing that for awhile.
And, and then I feel like less than a month after the pandemic started, I don't know if you guys had heard about that. Do you know there was a pandemic? Oh yeah. There's, there's an article about it. And I, I learned, I think that that what we should have been using in Guantanamo and other prisons, black site prisons around the world, the whole time was just plays on zoom.
We didn't need, we didn't need any of these physical torture tactics. We just needed plays and just needed to say, I'm not turning it off until you, it preach,
Speaker 2 (1h 23m 1s): Preach. Yes. Watching. And this is a, of a new play.
Speaker 1 (1h 23m 10s): Yeah. And that that's
Speaker 2 (1h 23m 16s): And
Speaker 4 (1h 23m 17s): She has a microphone that is rubbing against her hair and his is rubbing against his beard.
Speaker 2 (1h 23m 25s): And that one has a newborn who only cries when she has her mines. I had
Speaker 4 (1h 23m 32s): The idea, like I wanted to, I've been, I had an idea of how I want to do, which was too takes over.
Whoever's talking, it says the name of whoever's talking. And I was like, oh, well then the visual element could just be the character. So when I start talking, it says Torvald. And so if my grandmother wants to watch this, she'll be like, huh, I guess it's Torvald cause that's his name that, oh, that's Nora mentor. So I thought that'll be the only part of the visual element and we'll do these completely live. And so I used, I use connections with composers.
Who'd written music for shows that I'd done. And I'd done a lot of audio editing for the podcast to be able to make my own sort of sound gestures if I was going to have any and did the shows where I worked primarily with people that I directed before, or who had been in, I did a lot of Shaw concert readings with Chicago over the years. People who had done that, who were really used to yet, but it's really just your voice.
And th to kind of make it easier. And I would adapt these plays. And I was doing primarily public domain stuff, adapt them to be clear, but otherwise not change the writing and not edit it for time. Miss Alliance, we did in three different nights. And the first act of it was like fucking 80 minutes. It was long, but it was really fun to try to achieve at a really high level. We would do very, it was like minimum rehearsals, maximum fun. I'm stacking the deck. We all know what we're doing and we're going to something great.
It's going to happen if we do this live. And so I started, I think I've done 10 or maybe 12 of those now some Shaw, one Shakespeare, which was fucking great. Like we did a mid-summer that had like a really beautiful music passage in it where I had recorded music, that there were like the fairies were talking over the recorded music, so great. And the cast was amazing. And then some newer plays. And then I started working with a theater peninsula players where I've directed and where my wife Erica has been an actor for a long time.
And they were outreach shows for them. Like we're creating content, that's free for you to watch, just to keep the doors of the community up. And basically, so we created some shows together with them. And one of my favorite actors who I saw all the time at Shakespeare rep on Dearborn, when I was in school named Greg Minkler, he's on one of the best Shakespeare actors in the, in the country. And one of my favorite actors, I've always enjoyed seeing him. He's been in every single one of these.
Yeah. And he, he kind of dug alive aspect of it in the same way that I did. And he also had a, a preference for this format. Greg's very positive. So I'll say he had a preference for this format over others. And, and, and then it started to be like, I just do shows where I get to like, hear Greg do something crazy in different. And I love, you know, having him do multiple characters and like somebody from a unusual place or whatever. And then I started writing like as a gift to the actors, I would write a curtain call, like kind of like a sportscaster narrate.
What happens in the curtain call in kind of a fun way. And I got really cute. One of them was at least seven or eight minutes long. It's pretty intense. And then for each one I got away from Kurt and calls and just sort of like writing a little bit of book-ending the world. Like, where are we when we're doing this live thing, I'm trying to sort of embrace the idea that people are listening to us and where, where are you and where are we now? And so I write stuff that's on either side.
So that's the biggest creative thing I've been doing. And of course I'm workshopping and a couple of different shows for the west end, but I didn't think it was, should talk about that. Where can people find you? Oh, so how the fuck do you do that? I used to, I used to know, what do I tell people to search? You can just search how the F do you do that? Or search. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (1h 28m 40s): But isn't it also on your website?
Speaker 4 (1h 28m 43s): I'm not going to promoting myself. Kevin Christopher, Kevin, Christopher fox.com has links to the podcast. It has links to Chicago. Radio theater is the name that I use for the radio shows. That's also on Facebook though, kind of moving away from that. A but the website has all that stuff. And then I've also written there's my one person play. And then there is an ensemble comedy called game nights, 2017, a period piece that I co-wrote with my wife.
And I wrote an adaptation of murders in the room work by Poe. That's a four person adaptation and all those are on the new play exchange. And after I get off of this podcast recording, I'm going to put a link to that. Why is there not a winter, none of my fucking website. And they're all really good. And I'm really proud of them. And can't wait for them to be done in front of humans.
Speaker 0 (1h 29m 52s): If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I Survived. Theatre School is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina
Intro: Boz is in a pickle.
Let Me Run This By You: Gina evaluates her relationship with curmudgeonry.
Interview: We talk to Leslie Ivery about loving online theatre school, the British drama school experience, preferring playing villains, sci-fi and fantasy, and going against the grain.
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez
10s
Gina Pulice
and I'm Gina Pulice.
11s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
We went to theatre school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
15s
Gina Pulice
20 years later, we're digging deep re talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
21s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
30s
Gina Pulice
Anyways? So I want to hear about your pilot.
36s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Well, I'm in a pickle because I'm in a real pickle. Gina. What happened was, see, what had happened was, was I entered, there is a, a contest. They said, okay, write a log line and your bio. And if, if people are interested and we'll - through this organization, I won't mention, but cause who knows. And if, if you write your bio in your log line and we'll send it to execs, and if execs are interested, they'll contact you about your project. And the deadline was last night and I entered a week ago and this weekend at 1:00 AM I get an email saying, send us the, the full script.
1m 26s
Gina Pulice
Oh my God, that is amazing. Oh but now you have to write it. I get it.
1m 35s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I started, it was like 1:00 AM and I'm never up, but I happened to be up and I, and there was an email and it was like, can we see the whole script for called my calls? And I was like, yes, I wrote back the next morning and said, good morning. And I, I said the truth. I said, I'm in between drafts. I'm incorporating notes from my mentor, which is true. And I will have it to you as I'm madly working on it and I'll have it to as soon as possible. But yeah. And so I, no, the log line is good. And I know that, okay, when Bridget Lopez - up and coming up and coming entertainment, executive and champion of the me too movement is blackmailed by her former boss - former disgrace boss.
2m 33s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
She hires him as her assistant so she can keep her part in the crimes secrets.
2m 40s
Gina Pulice
I love it. So jam packed, and it is so much information in such a pithy way to read it too. Yeah. So
2m 49s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
You will, you will win and win and I'll send it on over. But so what what's happening now with me and I'm just in, in, in total, like, oh, and, and I wrote to my mentor and told her what she's like, congratulations, you've set up quite a challenge for yourself. You can do it. And it's going to be hard. I was like, you are correct. She didn't say anything like, so I guess my question to you is, I don't know, or I just feel like this was happened and Hollywood where people pitch ideas and the thing isn't written, I would assume. No, I
3m 20s
Gina Pulice
Think that happens mostly 99% of the time, because I have heard so many stories from people who say they'll pitch 12 ideas, and then they'll the, whoever somebody will buy the idea that they literally thought of in the moment that they were sitting there in the meeting. And then they're like, oh shit. And I have to go write this. I think that, I think it's the norm really. I mean, and, and they didn't say to you send it to us immediately, Did they?
3m 46s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
No. They just said and send it over. And I said, I will. So that's what I'm doing, beans. I, you know, exciting, exciting. And it's, and it's, it's interesting to, to sit down I'm the, my balcony and actually do the work. And I find that I get really close, literally. Like I'm typing really close and I'm doing a thing. And then I have to step away. I have to get, I have to, it gets too much. And then I get up and go walk around and do some weird stuff. And then I go back and sit. So that's how I write, I don't know how you, right. But I get really into it. And then it's too much. And I'm like, oh, okay. I have to step back.
4m 28s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Right.
4m 29s
Gina Pulice
So tell me what the.... It literally just the mechanics of sitting down and making sure you have whatever it is, 45 pages, is it that you don't totally know where the story's going to be? Is it that you have one? You know, like what, what we found in our pilot is we have these really strong characters. We have a very strong setting and the plot was the heart is the harder part. And that's, that's definitely true for me. Plot is my weakest, which is kind of funny to say like, okay, well, the plot is sort of everything agreed, but I, and I feel
5m 12s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
The same way I have the same. I mean, I think I have. Yeah. So, so I know these characters inside and out. I like we did with, like we do with Kiki. Its like, but yeah. I don't know exactly how they're going to get to where they're going. I know where I know for the most part we're in the pilot, they end up, but it's it's for me, it's sitting down and doing an outline and, and getting it all and I had note cards. And so it's like, you know, it's just doing the thing sitting. It's two things. Plot meets sitting my butt down and doing the thing it feels. So, and I wonder underneath of its vulnerable vulnerability, but I'm the outsider.
5m 57s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
It feels so uncomfortable. Like I'm like literally trying to get dressed in a sweater that's a little too tight and sit down and, and just do the thing, like just do the thing. And you know, it's interesting. I, my sister in high school was someone who procrastinated. She was an, a student, but procrastinated. And then she would wait until the last minute and then scream and yell literally and start freaking out and then get it done. So I feel like that my version of that is like, okay, getting up, having to walk around, drinking some, drinking, something, a lot of seltzer water getting back out, you know, eating an almond.
6m 43s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And it's like it getting my butt in the chair for, and then, you know, it's, it's hard, it's hard. And I, I dance around it and I'm wrestling with it. And so yesterday I really just started pounding it out. The, the, the outline is pound pounded out and now I'll send it to my mentor and she'll look at it. And, but it's, it's wrestling. I saw this hashtag and it was wrestling with words doors. And that's how I feel about this, even though I'm on the balcony. So mine's wrestling, with words on the balcony and it, and Stephen King and his book we love, you know, On Writing says, make sure you have a door. And so my nook doesn't have a door.
7m 25s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
So the balcony does have a door. So like that is, that's where I find my spot. And since it's California, I can write out there all day. But like, whoa, Gina, whoa,
7m 34s
Gina Pulice
Patton Oswalt said a great thing about writing. He was talking about when his wife was writing, I'll be gone in the dark. And he, you know, he sounds like he was incredibly supportive of her and they have the child together. So they would make these arrangements when she was going to right. And he said, you know, you need whatever it is, she needed six hours, eight hours. Or maybe it was oh a week. And I actually should take over the weekend. Not because you're going to sit for 48 hours straight and right. But because of all the things you have to do to get into the frame of mind of writing, which is really, really true, because once it's there and once you are in the flow, you could pretty much do it all in one sitting, its but it's getting there and
8m 23s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
It's, and I think that's why it's good. You're coming because we'll be in a room and we'll have a set and we can just, and we'll do that. Or like if we set aside time, I think I do better with deadlines and parameters. So my, you know, my mentors, right? I did, I set up this challenge for myself because, and miles was like, was like, you know, my husband was like, you know, it may never have gotten done if you didn't set up this challenge for yourself knowingly or unknowingly, you know, to do that. And I said, all right, okay.
8m 54s
Gina Pulice
I have a very good point. I think. Yeah. I think it's going to, even if whatever comes on the other, by the way it was this, the whole contest, just the logline thing or send it to us.
9m 5s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
It was just, it was a logline. I I'm so ridiculous. And I thought it was literally just the logline contest. I didn't understand. Like I wasn't thinking that far ahead. I just loved the idea.
9m 20s
Gina Pulice
I know you don't want to say the name of who, but like, are you sending it to a production company? And,
9m 25s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And it's a, it's an organization that helps writers links, writers with management and with production companies. Got it. So I thought this in my head, I'm thinking, oh, they'll send my log line and that to execs down the line and other down the line and execs might say, oh, this sounds good. Let me email. But instead I got an email from the organization immediately saying, and I was like, oh, okay. So I guess the bottom line is to, for me to know and that like things don't always look like, you think they're going to look and, and, and it just that's how life is like I, I, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just know that things come out of the woodwork that you're like, oh, I didn't even think of that.
10m 7s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I literally was at a high school reunion type party on Saturday and I never stay up past nine 30 and I was up at one and I got it. And I, I was talking to someone and I was like, I just got a weird email. And they were like, oh. And then everyone was kind of drinking and stoned at this party except me. And anyway, the point is I was like, oh yeah, things don't look like, you think they're going to look at least
10m 28s
Gina Pulice
You went to an ETHS reunion?
10m 31s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And B in California. Yeah. So there are tons of Evanstonians in Los Angeles, apparently. And Jeffrey Brown was there, who we've had on this podcast. And other people were there who live in LA and I didn't want to go, but, but I thought, you know, because I'm so, and, and, and my reasons our so vain gene and they're so vain, they're not like I they're like, I look fat and I don't want anyone saying, oh my God, what happened to her? That is it. If I'm totally honest with you, it's not like, I feel ashamed about my career. It's none of that. But I was like, you know what, Jenn, you know, what, what the heck come on? And you're 45 and eight, and that's a valid, if you don't want to go, don't go. But is it really all that? Like we were saying about self-centered fear, is it really all that? Can you get out of the way, maybe you like these people now? Or like, yeah. So I went, I couldn't believe it. I went by myself. Miles was like, go ahead and went. I said, what can you do to make yourself feel better? What can I do to make myself feel better about it? So I dressed up and I was like, let me go. And let me see how these people are. And it was hilarious and fun. And other people look, you know, have put on weight or lost hair or whatever. It doesn't even matter. And even matter, I had a blast and I stayed up till 2:00 AM. I've never stayed up til 2:00 AM in years.
11m 58s
Gina Pulice
But I, I relate To your hesitate. I would have had the same exact hesitations about going and it's, yeah, I'm learning a lot about myself centered fear and it's, it's among other things. It's such a waste of my time and not to mention, it's like not great for the people who are in my, my life, you know, so,
12m 19s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Well, the other thing is like, people don't know for me, like what is going on? So, so it comes across as, oh, she doesn't want to come to this party because she's better than us or she's or whatever. They that's their dance, but I don't want to come across. That's not the reason. The reason is I'm embarrassed about the way I look and that I'm don't have a house. Right. I don't know. And a half, the things that come up are, I don't know what is going on with my career. Is there a career? We don't own a house and that's, and, and, and, and, you know, and I I'm, whatever size I am. So that's, that's it, you know, that's it, that's the truth. If you tell me the, ask me to tell the truth, the truth of this situation. But I went anyway and it was, it was fine and lovely. And also look, everyone's drinking and doing their own thing. They're not thinking about me, my waistline dude.
13m 11s
Gina Pulice
And I was just gonna say, they ought to have at the door. When you check in on your name tag, you just read it like the top three reasons. You didn't want to come to this re and then you, and then you'd pair off or get into subgroups of people who all had the exact same thing. Like, there's so many people who were saying, I don't have a house. I'm not anywhere in my career. I don't like the way I look at. And it's like, yeah, we have this thought that we're going to go. And they're all going to be exactly like they were at 17 and you're the only one who's aged. Right. Whatever.
13m 49s
Gina Pulice
But,
13m 51s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And also like, like we know with fear, everyone's thinking about their own waistline or the hairline or their, or their, their bottom line, whatever, there you go, waistline, Let Me Run This By.
14m 17s
Gina Pulice
Well, the thing I wanted to run by you is, you know, how, when people get older, there there's a stereotype that they're like more curmudgeonly. Yeah. Well, I'm already pretty curmudgeonly. And so I'm evaluating how far I want to go with this age. Like, I'm a bit of a misanthrope. I'm less of a misanthrope when I'm feeling better. Like just, you know, but my baseline is, I'm like cynical and, you know, I have all these faults. Okay.
14m 56s
Gina Pulice
I am just wondering, you know, I had a thought at one point, oh, I'm going to get real, like spiritual one day and I'm going to just become this nice person that I've never been. I don't think it's going to be the, I mean, and I might get spiritual, but it's not going to turn me into a nice person necessarily.
15m 14s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
You're more of the, and Annie Liebowitz. No. What sorts of and Fran Liebowitz type, you are the Fran Liebowitz type.
15m 20s
Gina Pulice
Yes. Not as hardcore as her, but yeah, I'm more like, let's, let's come over here and judge something. It's just, it's not great. I don't like it, but I also don't know
15m 34s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
What else to do. No, I think, I think that right. I think that that is part of who you are and I think it makes you who you are. I don't think it's dangerous. I think that it becomes like if you become like a, you know, like a Hobbit or I don't know, like a hermit or Herman. Yeah. Either one would probably not be good, not the greatest, but like a hermit, a hoarder hermit is probably not, but I don't think you're headed there. I just think that you have right. You have ingrained in you a certain kind of thing that I think the only way through, and it's not.
16m 13s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And so you're like, you know, you yell at people on the street and stuff, you know, like it's not that its internal curmudgeonly and then maybe your closest people C the curmudgeon, but I don't know. I always, and maybe this is why we're such good friends. I love a curmudgeon and I'm really good with curmudgeons. Like I don't, I don't, I think curmudgeons are hilarious. And, and also I'd rather be stuck in a room with a curmudgeon than good vibes. Only
16m 46s
Gina Pulice
A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Me too, for sure. And I'm the same way. I'm also very good with it and with a fellow curmudgeon and it actually, when I'm with another curmudgeonry it makes me like more positive.
16m 59s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Yeah. You're the more positive the curmudgeon. And I think that that's fine. And I also know that like, just knowing the work that you're doing in terms of your organizations with, with people that it can be difficult sometimes. And we're all in those relationships, that the way that you come at that work is not a way is a good way. Like you are working to me is a helpful way is you're you're you are interested in change. So I think if you weren't interested in change, Gina, I would be like, okay, yeah, this is going to be bad, but you are interested in change and you, and so I think that, that's the thing. Yeah.
17m 38s
Gina Pulice
I'm very interested in change. And part of what's the spring, this thought in me is because I have the occasion to work with so many elderly people. I w one of whom I got into quite a conflict with. Yeah. Yeah. I, I called somebody to try to, I said, let's, we're having a communication problem. Let's try to clear it up. And it started out like that. And I think this person is fundamentally and capable of accepting responsibility for anything. So just turns everything into a big victim sesh. And you know, it's really fascinating.
18m 21s
Gina Pulice
W when sometimes when other people are spinning out, I just feel like I feel more calm when, when, when the other person is spinning out. I think I used to get really spun out by a person who was spinning out. And now I just think, okay, so you're having a really hard time right now. And it gives me actually a lot more compassion than, you know, it might otherwise, if she, if she was holding it together, I might've gotten more spun out myself, but she was so off the rails. And I thought, you know, I, I, when I'm that age, I want to be in a place where no matter how upset I'm feeling, when somebody from a semi-professional organization calls me, I can keep my cool.
19m 12s
Gina Pulice
Do you know what I mean? Even if it's something that's really triggering to me, you know, you just gotta keep your cool man. I just
19m 22s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
She's done. No, she hasn't done the kind of work or it's not showing that, that she can regulate. She can't regulate.
19m 31s
Gina Pulice
Yeah. And you know, it's interesting, several times now she's raised this thing about like who her dad was and I'm like, oh my God, years in your sixties or whatever. And you're still talking about your dad. It's not a good look. It's not. And she brings it up so often I, she must think it means something like, oh, well, if your dad was that, then I guess I don't have a problem with,
20m 1s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And that just reeks. Cause I've done that. Not that my parents were any
20m 38s
Gina Pulice
Yeah. And I have to say like, this person's father is not anybody. I know. It's just like, you know, grasping at straws, it's grasping at straws.
20m 49s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I don't think you're going to become anything like that. I mean, who knows the time will tell, but I have a feeling that if you were going to be that sort of spun out, you would be, these are people that are spun out in their forties. They're just told spin out. I think you might do a different number on yourself, but I don't think it's going to be curmudgeonry oh,
21m 14s
Gina Pulice
Curmudgeons can be cute. And as far as U I think that is the thing that's going to happen. Ripen for you is you're going to be less and less controlled by your self-centered fear. Oh. And I think you're going to be able to relax into the beautiful eccentric
21m 33s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
That, that you really
21m 36s
Gina Pulice
Are, you know, and, and be able to not only go around and feel okay about yourself, but spread your joy to the world. Cause you're A joyful person. I really appreciate that
21m 55s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
today on the podcast, we're talking with the Leslie Ivery, Leslie, and someone who is from the U S but went to acting school in England. And she shares what it's like to be from another place, going to school and afford country and what their school system was like there. And also dealing with the pandemic and graduating and all of this madness and what she's doing now, she's super powerful. She's super strong. And she's someone who adores a good villain and that's someone we adore. So please enjoy our conversation with Leslie Ivery
22m 34s
Leslie Ivery
Apocalypse pantry. And I just converted into a sound booth.
22m 40s
Gina Pulice
Oh, that's perfect. I love that. Now. What do you use for your pantry?
22m 44s
Leslie Ivery
Oh no, it's still here. They're still shelf.
22m 48s
Gina Pulice
Good. Nice. Well, it's so nice to meet you, Leslie. I, I, You know, as I was telling Boz, she and her name is Jen, but I call her Boz that I'm, I've heard you speaking on Clubhouse. That's the extent of how I know you. So whatever you said must have really impressed me to reach out to you immediately. I'm so glad you did. So congratulations, Leslie, you survived theater school.
23m 19s
Leslie Ivery
Oh my God. I survived.
23m 21s
Gina Pulice
By the way, the fanciest theater school, we have ever had an alum, Royal Central School of Speech and Drama where like seriously, some of my- Judy Dench and Sir Lawrence Olivier and Harold Pinter my favorite playwright like, oh,
23m 39s
Leslie Ivery
Wow. There's some big wigs. I don't know why I was doing there. I'm sure
23m 44s
Gina Pulice
You were learning to be an amazing actor. So how did, how did you land over there?
23m 51s
Leslie Ivery
You know, I ha I knew I've always wanted to have go to school and the UK, I was the kid and I was seeing these British actors now. I was like, that's it that's the goal. There was something about the British style of training that I just knew I needed. I just, it connected with me. And so I, I set my heart on it, man. And I was going to get there one way or another. And so I, you know, I got my undergrad degree and I moved back home when I was like, alright, what's the next step what's happening. I needed something else to do. And I said, all right, it's England it's time. And so I just put a plan in place. I auditioned for three places. And that was it. I just decided just went for it.
24m 29s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Did you, you applied to three all overseas?
24m 33s
Leslie Ivery
Yeah. I applied to Oxford, a Royal conservatory of Scotland and then Royal Central.
24m 38s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
So you were not messing around.
24m 40s
Leslie Ivery
I was ready.
24m 43s
Gina Pulice
And how do they Handle, I guess you must've done your audition on, telepathically - not telepathically! land I would have been like, yeah. So, because You just graduated, right? Yeah.
24m 59s
Leslie Ivery
Probably about two or three years in between from, from central. Yes, I did. Yes. Yeah.
25m 3s
Gina Pulice
So, so you're somebody who can tell us more about what modern auditioning processes are like.
25m 10s
Leslie Ivery
Actually, I did all my auditions in person because I know I'm insane. I had never, I've never been there before. And I was like, well, I might as well go and see what it's like. And there's something to be said about auditioning in person. You feel the energy in the room and so much feedback. And I knew that was just, that was the key. So I went, I went over to all the places and my first round, my second rounds where we're over Skype. But, and then of course, the second half of my school ended up just being all over zoom. So that was right.
25m 42s
Gina Pulice
And what a bummer.
25m 43s
Leslie Ivery
And I loved it. I did. And here's why when I was in classes, we were also, it was like, what? 20 of us? We were all together in one room for like 12 hours straight with a 45 minute break in between. It's intense. It's a lot. There's no escape. You can't go have just a minute to yourself. It was just non-stop. But home, I could step away. I could breathe. I was in my living room. I could like leave the session if I need to just have a mental break. I mean, I loved it. It really is wonderful. Well, maybe you're highly adaptable. They're highly adaptable.
26m 20s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I was going to ask about the audition process itself for four schools. Did you, do, did you do, what did they have you do monologues scenes? How did it work?
26m 30s
Leslie Ivery
Yes. So Oxford, you need a Shakespeare monologue and then you needed a contemporary monologue. That was the weirdest audition I've ever been to. Well, first of all, it's the middle of nowhere. So they take you out in the shuttle bus. You go, it's like this farm, that's like an hour and a half outside of the city. And there were all these strange, the creme, it's a little bus. And actually my audition, no one could find the bus. So I'm with like a few other people and we're like, who's picking us up. Like none of us are smart. So once we actually found the bus that would already, so we entered the audition, just like freaking out. So we get there and there's about 40 of us they're and they hoard us and to this, you know, and this black box theater, and they're like, okay, we're gonna and warm up. And I want you to think about a scene from your favorite player and he's on stage. And I want you to paint the scene with your body. Pretend like you're an artist. And so we're like rolling around on the floor and wiggling and trying to make sense of it. Like it's actually going to get us into school. So that was awesome. If I wiggle just the right way a stop it and then explain it afterwards. And she was like, bullshit and your way, try and be like, oh yeah, I knew exactly what I was doing.
27m 45s
Gina Pulice
Yeah. I was, I did a good job of acting. Like I knew exactly what I was doing. So doing a Shakespeare monologue at Oxford. Okay. And the top 10 list of daunting things that, that seems to rank kind of high, just
27m 56s
Leslie Ivery
A bit and the whole time, and just kind of staring at, you know, emotion that you're staring and you're like, okay, okay. And do, what did you do? Do you remember what I, I did Henry the sixth. I didn't queen Margaret. So it misses her and like rallying her troops. She's right. If I had gone into battle, that's my kind of woman. So that's what I did. No. And the other hand roundish and at Scottland, it was just me and the room. And I also did Shakespeare. And can I tell you, they were cheering me on there's like two pants. They were screaming y'all oh my God. I had the best. I mean, they were just, it was the most supportive group. They were just wonderful. And that was, that was like stark contrast. So I'd much rather audition to Shakespeare in Scotland than an Oxford Shakespeare. Again, don't even, don't even go there. Yeah. But the, my audition for central was, it was just, it was just the monologue actually. And it could be anything you want contemporary or not just want to show us. And, and when I actually, I was on the audition panel and I was in the course, and there are a lot of Fleabag monologues. I'm just going to say, stay away from the Fleabag monologues because we have five out of the 20. And after a while, it's not, it's not going to, it's not going to go well, it's not cute and not cute. And like, it's such a particular voice that Phoebe Waller-Bridge has. And because she'd wrote for herself, she didn't write it for you. And so it's not going to sound authentic and genuine. So that's just, but just something to keep your, you know, keep your ear up to the floor.
29m 31s
Gina Pulice
So you said you Did a very, or the, the, the character Tracy picked a really bold character and on your website it's you said that that's what you're into. So you have, have you always known this about yourself? Like what your preference would be acting? And
29m 47s
Leslie Ivery
This pandemic has really been so enlightening because I've learned is how specific I need to be and how I put myself out there. I think when they, when in school they say, well, be adaptable, do anything, morph into any character and roll, and that's great, but it's not helpful when you need to be cast in and something are when you're working with the non directors and casting agent. And so this year has been really about solidify exactly who I want to be in the world, what characters, those are a set of along other people to put me in those places. But what I realized was that over time, yeah, I was playing those kind of bold, louder, and I'm five to, but you'll never know if I'm at the scene. You know? So I was, I was navigating toilets characters anyway, but the issue was a matter of taking control over who I was being when I'm on stage or on screen.
30m 37s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I think that is so brilliant that you got specific. We've talked about specificity this morning and Gina
30m 42s
Leslie Ivery
and I, and talking about just detail and knowing yourself well enough to know that this is who I am. This is because it specifically, you had the, what I was reading that villains are your jam. That is so specific. And I love a good villain to, but I don't know. I'm scared. It's like takes a bold person to play a villain and have a well-rounded villain. So why villains, why, why? And that's a great question. My mom asks you that everyday, every time I watch and move on, I'm trying to the village. And she's like, why, what what's drawing you to the dark side. I don't, I just find them so fascinating. I always have, I don't know. It could be because I found there is more dimension oftentimes when riding a villain.
31m 26s
Leslie Ivery
So perhaps that was just drawn to what I like when people are more than just face value. And perhaps it's villains that well-written villains that can show you that they show that there's more than one side to the story. You know, I just, I, I don't know, but something about the tech and it's about just having that dark side and not being afraid to show it, they never care what people think. Right. They have a principle, they have action and they do it and they don't, they don't care. You know, they're not living other people. They're just themselves. They're authentic. And that's it. It's just kind of in the story. I think I've always, always admired about that. And sometimes the protagonist always explaining their selves or the people explain their actions and their beliefs. And I don't, I don't have time for that. And no one should be forced to, you know, to do that every day and their life. No, but you have to explain their existence and villains never have to,
32m 16s
Gina Pulice
Oh, what a great point. And you're also making me realize that there's a greater chance that for a female part, and then there's going to be texture in a villain, you know, still, even now you see a lot
32m 28s
Leslie Ivery
Of really one time, cause you didn't expect women's to be angry or have vendettas. Right. We're supposed to smile and wave and move on. But when they're the villains, it cuts deep because it's unexpected, even though it shouldn't be.
32m 40s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And you know, what I love is a good, is a good like antihero to like the, and not someone that mixes all that stuff or who might appear to be. And maybe this is something that you could do as well as like who appears to be diminutive five to that. And then like unleashes a terror. That is, I think that's fascinating. I root for those people all the time.
33m 7s
Gina Pulice
So who are this? This conversation is really cool to me who are some of your favorite villains that we've already seen on stage and screen?
33m 15s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I'm a big Sci-fi and fantasy geek. So I'm automatically going to go straight. There. I am also a big star wars fan. So like I love Darth Maul. I mean, he's a straight villain. I just, I don't know. He's won and apologetic and it's just, it's wonderful. I love Bellatrix Lestrange because she is just a force of nature, Harry Potter.
33m 40s
Gina Pulice
Unfortunately we are out of the oldest. Yeah.
33m 47s
Leslie Ivery
Yeah. She's just, yeah. She's a force of nature. She's a powerhouse. And she's another one that I just, I take to, I don't know who else, but
33m 57s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
have you been, have you played straight up villains in school or in, in theater?
34m 2s
Leslie Ivery
Not straight up. I I've always played the ones like a hint of darkness or who are seemingly dark, but they're, they still have moral compass and their agenda is still for the greater good, which it's fine. But I have yet to get my, like really juicy
34m 24s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
there's the television show or the television show killing Eve. Yeah. And, and they, those are some, oh, talk about villains. Are you into like, like Gina said, like, would you love to play like a killer, like with, with like an assassin?
34m 39s
Leslie Ivery
Is that yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
34m 47s
Gina Pulice
I love that you put that out there on your website, you know, that just, this is what you're into. This is what you're good at. And your, your pictures show that too. So the lesson about, I mean, you said you listened to a couple of our episodes, so you've heard a little bit about, you know, what we're used to in terms of the theater training, is it pretty universal? I mean, you did S voice and I mean, it's called school, speech and drama, but so you could voice and speech and movement technique.
35m 13s
Leslie Ivery
Exactly. We had two different movement classes. There was the episode, I think you're talking to Nick about like the, the push and flick and like punch you the whole semester on that. And I was like, I was screaming. I was like, oh, that's the same everywhere. And so yeah, lots of move. And one was a movement focus and like stage comment and screen combat one was just breathing and those, you know, those types of Laban technique or something and what it's called the, we have, yeah, we have voice classes. We had dialect classes, which are really nice. Yeah. Those were fun. Which half it was learning American, which was unhelpful to me, but it was still fun. And then we had our own screen camera class and just our acting techniques and then the script analysis class.
35m 57s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And you're like a casting kind of mock casting sessions. My question about, I have this curiosity about dialects since you're in you're overseas, you're, you know, you're doing, and did you slip into a British accent ever? Did it happen because no, no, no.
36m 20s
Leslie Ivery
I picked up on the mannerisms first and they were like a few words they say here and there just, that's just constantly rotations. So that was the first and I picked up and there and put up at the accent for myself. I felt it was perhaps a bit easier to slip it to the accent because I was there if need be if called upon. But I'm the mannerisms definitely just like silly words or like, just like slang words. Absolutely.
36m 44s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Because that was just my side. Morbid curiosity. Didn't go back to, did you, you said you rolled around. We did too. A lot of rolling around and breathing on the floor.
36m 55s
Leslie Ivery
It was just semi supine, which I learnt for the other side. And it was, it, it would just lie on your back. Yeah. Just laying on your back with your knees up and just breathing. And everyone's from after class, our teacher was like, well, what did you learn? Anything from it? And I was like, I learned that I got nothing from this I get, and I don't know what I'm looking for. I don't understand because you're saying to relax and I'm laying in a state and I'm doing the officer blacks. I'm tensing because I'm trying to relax and I can't relax. And I don't know what the end goal is here. I don't know what I'm looking for. So me and the boys and movement lessons had a lot of push back and just, that was a place where just contention for me. I just, I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing.
37m 33s
Gina Pulice
Great. And something, I don't think we've really talked about, at least not very much on here is this, there's like a magical quotient in, in theater training. The, that it's this joint thing of like you as the student, you feel, you don't really know what's going on and you're guessing at it. And it seems like as the teacher, you feel like there, you're not going to spell it out there. You know, they're getting there is like this unaccounted for middle space in terms of yes. Getting it. And then
38m 2s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
There's also a part of me that looks back and thinks, and I'm glad you pushed back because it's like, I wish they would've just told us what they wanted from us specifically. Like, you know, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't for, for people who had certain parts to get boners. And that's what ended up happening and in the movement class, like if that's what you want then great, we accomplished that. But, but, but there is, I think there's a magic part of where, and, and, and maybe it's because it's so hard to quantify and qualify and, and compartmentalize it is to be an artist. And especially the actor that they're just great. It does feel like some classes are grasping at straws.
38m 42s
Leslie Ivery
Like it's not magic. It's just vagueness. It's just laziness. I think. I mean, cause when it's magic, we know it's magic. We don't question it and it happens. But if you're constantly like, what what's I, why am I doing this? And that's not magic, that's not clear, you know? And, and it's and helpful. And I think it, it really puts you back. And I understand that there's a sense that the teachers want you to grow and figure things out for yourself and you know, kind of let you grow up. But like I said, I can't grow up from that clear about what the rest and grew up about. Right. And you can do it for makes sense. Yeah.
39m 15s
Gina Pulice
Did you feel like The school did a good enough job preparing you for post-grads?
39m 23s
Leslie Ivery
No, no, no, no, no, no. I think of that and change. And I think about that all the time. I just it's so infuriating because acting in the modern age is so much more than how I look on screen or on stage. Right. It's how to run a business. It's how to network and, but relationships it's, what am I headshot? Like who am I as a person? This just as important because I can be the best impactor in the world. And if I can put myself out there and I'm going to sit here on my couch all day and just be unfulfilled and that's unhelpful. And a lot of the classes that we have, which like, and the latter half, well, it could, you know, and we were still living the same things or we're doing improv. It should have been business-related it should have been learning when to incorporate, you know, I mean just, just simple things. So I do not feel prepared. And a lot of this of, I am just learning as I go on, I am like on webinars galore. I mean, it's just every week's new webinar. I'm just, I'm really, and it is very disappointing, but, and in the day, you know, I'm always the independent, I've always had to kind of put it out for myself and I guess this is just no different. It's just important. Isn't it?
40m 30s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
It's unfortunate. And I think that it's totally, I think it'd be it's because of the conservatory mindset. That is the art. That is the thing. But the problem with that is what you just said, which is it's so much more now than just the art. If you are to make a living and pay your rent. Right. So we don't live in an old model where you, you know, it worked out that you could do theater if it ever did that, you could pay your rent. So yeah. It's unfortunate. I'm shocked that it hasn't changed to be honest with you, like,
41m 3s
Gina Pulice
Oh, well, but though let me ask you about the re so the school is very old. It's sort of, it's a hundred and something years old. Right. So we can assume that for the very, most of it, it's been all theater theater theater, but did you get cameras? Anything
41m 20s
Leslie Ivery
I did because my course was the only course that was acting for screen. So it was very specific. So every, and now we're in may. So every, or the course was all theater, musical theater voice, but we were only scraped. So yeah. So I mean, and we, a few courses that were just dedicated to just working on screen and even then I can push back because what there on the screen class did was we sat in chairs, he prepared scenes. We saw how he looked on camera, but when you're on set it's well, how do I go to my Mark without staring at my mark the whole time? Right. There's so how do I keep, you know, keep my face, so the camera without looking at the camera, like, how do I make sure it's constantly seeing me? How do I do my, but there's so many questions that I still had post-graduation so even that felt like it half measure, but yet, but it was in theory specifically, just the screen course.
42m 8s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I mean, at least you knew what a mark was for guys. Yeah, I got that.
42m 14s
Gina Pulice
So you're, so you're doing a bunch of webinars. Are they helpful? And what kind of webinars are
42m 19s
Leslie Ivery
You doing? No, I'm doing lots of branding webinars and pitching yourself out. So that's kind of what this project is like, rebranding, those, those have been quite helpful. What I've wonder the webinars is that people are always trying to sell you things. Right. But yet, but they're still nuggets of information. So the first 30 minutes will be great and you can leave after the last half, if you're not in the financial position. So then, you know, she's got the money. And so that's also been really helpful and it's been just self-tapes because even though we did self-tapes regularly because it's become just dominating in our field, there's still so much more to learn and things are changing. So lot of self-tape webinars have been helpful. Just character building over zoom since zoom auditions are also a thing. So how do you build a character from a, you know, a half, a page script over zoom and where to look and how do you kind of block yourself in there? And that's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I mean, like you said earlier, it's just about adapting is all new targets or, and the good things that we're all in the same boat. I don't feel like it's just me kind of a fish out of water. We're all kind of figuring out together.
43m 27s
Gina Pulice
So where did you grow up and did you always do theater acting that kind of thing? Yeah.
43m 32s
Leslie Ivery
I all over the place. So I was born in Georgia. My childhood was primarily in Philly though. And then I went to high school an and South Carolina. And then after that, I ran away at 17 and moved to New York, came back home and went to London. So I'm kind of all over the place. I don't really know where I'm from, like a nomad, but yeah, I, I think a for the most part I've always done theater. My first theater production was at the Jewish community center and we did Annie and I was cast as Pepper, who was the one main girl and the whole orphanage. And I was like, that's it. I will be a villain for the rest of my life. I will always be a bad guy.
44m 14s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Pepper's a bad-ass
44m 17s
Leslie Ivery
I loved it. I loved it. And what's funny is that, even though I was pepper in the extra Oddish or the actual play and our director had me sing tomorrow with Annie, don't know why she does, but she couldn't. And maybe they'll be distracted too bad.
44m 41s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Well, pepper is the only other memorable orphan. Right? Like, I don't remember any other orphan besides, and
44m 49s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
That's a very good point. Yeah.
44m 52s
Gina Pulice
I mean like Disney villain characters are the always the most interesting.
44m 55s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So did
45m 0s
Gina Pulice
You guys have a showcase for agents?
45m 5s
Leslie Ivery
Yeah. And we were supposed to, we were supposed to have a very large staircase. So we filmed these really wonderful short films. There were big projects they're outsourced, and they're supposed to be the showcase where we show all we know four or five short films at the score. I wouldn't comms this every year. And when get signed, that's the big party, et cetera. Well, at this point, you know, the pandemic got hit. So I did go back to shoot my film and to come back, you know, after once we were locked down, number three, but I, you know, we shot our films, but at that point we just could not schedule a showcase. And so we ended up having, cause you a online showcase where the films were shown like on YouTube and some people showed up. And so the agent and they're like, we're not coming to the online show. Okay. So some agents were like, we love it because you don't have the labor houses. Regardless. The signing rate was, it was a lot lower for this class. It's a shame, but you know, we move on, you got signed. I did, but now I'm stuck in the U S and my age is, and the UK and I can't get any work. There's no cross hire people who have to travel because of COVID.
46m 16s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
So where, where are you located in the universe? Right.
46m 20s
Leslie Ivery
Well, I'm, I'm in, back in South Carolina. I had to come back home. I moved back to London and I failed and I was trying to say there have few months left of my visa, but they went to lock down a good and it just, the way she was going to hit so hard. And I was like, you know, and by myself, all my friends kind of scattered it to the outskirts of England at that point. Cause everyone was kind of, you know, rushing and get home and, and be safe. And I was like, I'm just, I'm sitting here by myself paying all this rent and there's no point. So I end up coming back home a few months early, which is so heartbreaking, but I'm here and I'm comfortable and I'm like getting my shit together before I be into the world. And I'm wondering to be patient
46m 53s
Gina Pulice
Very smart. That's very smart. So do you have additional skills like you're into writing or directing anything like that? I
47m 2s
Leslie Ivery
Do all of that. Oh, well, but it's just gonna take time. I need to just hone those skills, but I do, I have all of these like unfinished stories that are just sitting on my laptop that I would love to just create content just for myself and for others just while we're here and I would love to do right. But I think I would love to direct theater before ever direct anything on screen, because that's my background. That's kind of my first love and I can just see it a bit more clearer. So maybe once everything starts back up, I'll do theater. I'm currently doing like an audio book and duration course as well. So the whole feed that'll be here. I love audio books.
47m 39s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Yeah. I mean it's, and, and it's a way, I mean, it's a way to, to do what you're doing and make money and during the pandemic. Yeah. It's a hustle. Let's talk about your New York years because that's really interesting to me. You, you ran away to New York and it said you spent, you're irresponsible drinking years in the city, which is I spent my, those years in Los Angeles, same thing. But, but, but, so tell me, how do you, how did you end up there and, and you ended up working at a theater off Broadway, a big theater.
48m 7s
Leslie Ivery
Did I, New York was like the UK. I was like, I want to go to New York. And so I went and my parents were like, great, go for it and do it. So I graduated high school and I maybe waited a month at the graduation. And I went up to New York, my, myself and I was ready to take it by storm. And, and so I knew I wanted to go get my undergrad degree there, but I did is I took a year off and get in-state tuition and, and so much cheaper. So I just worked for a year, got my in-state tuition. I went to school there and I'm the director that I was working with. Wasn't joining the theater program at school. He was already involved with off-Broadway. And so he was starting this, the point of this new company. He was the first year they're called masterworks theater company. And their, their goal was to revive classical theater, works with a diverse cast. So, and to make it affordable, accessible for students for New York city students. And I was like, that's everything that I am looking for in my lab. That's that those are all just, they just match my ethos. And so he brought me on board to work for the general manager that was there and I just kept that relationship. And so it was working with them and just learning so, so much just from being inside while in school, just, I don't know, and leave classes, go there and work. And over the years I just met people and was able to keep working back with them and just got hired for working shows and just in different positions. And I was able to kind of just built my way up. Just, just start from one person.
49m 37s
Gina Pulice
Your work ethic is amazing. And
49m 39s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Yeah. And, and how did you get, so where do you think your bravery or your boldness comes from? Like in terms of being like I'm going to freaking and go to New York city at 17 on my own.
49m 52s
Leslie Ivery
Yeah. My first one, my work ethic comes from my dad. Absolutely. He is the hardest worker. I know. And the only makes you work hard when he shows up, he's so generous and supportive with this his time. And I think that I saw growing up and I love it. I love how people just took to him. He's just so open and generous so that I definitely got that from him. And I think my bravery death of my mother, she's always buying the black sheep of the family. She just does what she wants to do. And she's always kind of going against the grain and that I've always admired as well. And I, yeah, I just, I just took to that and it helps because I have such a strong support system that when I've had these crazy ideas, like I'm going to go to New York 17 and then I'd go for it, do it, don't have back. We got, yeah. And that's actually the most surprising cause everyone around me, high school, you know, all my classmates were in South Carolina. All my classmates would go maybe as far as Georgia may be North Carolina, for the most part, everyone goes to the, the university is here, that's it. They don't leave. And I think at that point I was able to see that and say, no, but I am not proponent for conforming and be like, everyone else, that is not how I was raised. And so I had the same fit. You have the same thing, which is needing to just be different and just have my own just path and what I was seeing around me.
51m 8s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
So
51m 9s
Gina Pulice
Is there a theater in South Carolina? Is there a theater scene?
51m 12s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
There's a really small theater scene action. I moved back home right before London. I ended up got cast as an outsourcing at cast in the play that was part of university's graduate program, which was fantastic. It was so, so great. We did it, The Revolutionists and it was wonderful, but yeah, there's a small and there's like a, maybe two or three local community theaters that are here. They've got hit a little hard just because the pandemic's there as soon as the most local theaters have. So they're slowly starting to come back, but there is there, there's a good little scene here.
51m 44s
Gina Pulice
What's The Revolutionists I haven't heard of that before
51m 47s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Set during the French revolution. And it's based off of actual historical, just female figures at the time. And they're all just pushing for reform in a world where men are asking for caramel Ted's off. And one is the writer one and she's an activist. And so my character was actually from Haiti, from Santo may and she's pushing for the abolitionists and it's just these four women and we want them to Fasten. And this is for women who kind of banded together, who are like, you know, things need to change. I mean, it's still relevant to the day, right. But it's just thanks in the change. And we have to use our voices in our written work and our skill, whatever we have to, to help promote that change. It's yeah. It's wonderful.
52m 28s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
It's like required reading and okay. I'm going to read it. And what about, I have a question for both of you, I'm just sitting here thinking, because it's clear that your, how do you know when you're a good actor? This is such a weird question, but like it's clear, you're a good actor. Right. And it sort of, is it an internal thing that just feels like I'm on it? You know? Like how do you know when you're in the moment? It's the question for both of you? Because I don't know. It's a hard question, but I just thought of it. Cause it's, I bet you're good. I've never seen you. I've never seen you on film or on stage, but I would, I would guess that your great and part of that is that what I'm getting from you is the bravery and confidence. Right? So is it all just confidence, but no there's training too. I dunno what I'm asking. It's a crazy question. How do you know when you're good at something?
53m 23s
Leslie Ivery
Oh, Gina, you want to talk about this one?
53m 26s
Gina Pulice
Well, I, what I, what popped to my mind when you asked the question is just very personally, like when, when have I ever felt, when I'm doing it, like this is it. And it's weird for me because it it's a feeling that, I mean, I haven't acted very much lately, but it's a feeling that's elusive and it just, it does seem like there's no telling what's going to lead up. So I just re I have specific moments on stage where I feel totally dropped in. And I think, yeah, this is it. But I've had a lot more moments where I think, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not in my body. I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing next. This is terrible acting. So I like it. Maybe that speaks to more of the, the, you actually, Leslie, you mentioned earlier, and like everybody knows magic when they feel it. It does feel sort of magical when it happens. It's great. I just, I don't know. What I don't know is how people reliably feel like that most of the time. And that's not an,
54m 32s
Leslie Ivery
I agree. I don't know. That's a lot of self awareness, isn't it? And it's so tricky because this industry is almost built upon the foundation of other people telling you you're good or you candy. And if, and you can't do that. So it's a question of how do I know that I'm good at this without relying on external sources constantly validating you as whole time? I don't know. I, I like that. It's magic. I think that's great. I think it's so hard to, oh, the have that magic, but still kind of be out of it. I agree. I've had moments on stage. I'm like I was not present. I knew I was good, but I was not present. And I was sitting on my next line and that was most important and I wasn't connecting, but it was a good performance.
55m 17s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
So I don't know what that is either. And I think that's why the reason, the reason I bring it up is because I think we're trying to be trained at a conservatory for that magic. That is so elusive. So I'm just trying to see like, gosh, schooling for this craft is insane. It's insane. But I mean, it's important. I think it's so important. I just, yeah, and I, I too have had moments on stage or in an audition room where I'm like, I nailed it. And I'm like, okay, well, why did I nail it? How did I nail it? And to be honest with you and 90% of the time, I have no idea why none there. And I'm just wondering maybe, maybe, maybe the more you do it, the more you can know what that magic, special sauces in the room I had still have it, which is probably why I don't work all the time.
56m 7s
Gina Pulice
And one woman show did, did it feel, yeah, she has got a great, hilarious one woman show, but did it feel because you were playing yourself? Okay, so like T
56m 18s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
T E hello. So I did a one person show called a one woman show called Why Not Me? And it was, it was about love and cancer and my twenties and just, but it is my story about me. And so it didn't feel so immediately taking away the rigomarole role of saying the lines because who cares, that's done. So I was able to drop in to the story I wanted to tell. And I thought it was a very important story to tell, regardless of, but almost too. And it was my story to tell, but the story took on, maybe this is a story took on a greater meaning, emotionally, spiritually, and service wise to the universe. I really felt this was a story I needed to offer. So at that, and immediately took me out of the mode of, do I look cute? Am I saying my lines? Right? Because I didn't care. So maybe that's but for people. So that experience was so magnificent because it was true. It was undeniable, which is what we always say. It was undeniable because it was my thing coming from a very authentic place, but saying someone else's words, right. And still maintaining that on deniability seems like that is the magic, special sauce that some people can do. And I bet you can do it. And I'm sure we all can do it at times that there are some people who consistently have that magic, special sauce, whether they're saying their own words or whether they're saying pinchers words.
57m 50s
Leslie Ivery
And that to me is, whoa. Yeah. That's so interesting though, Jen, because think about it is I think when you know yourself fully, when you're, self-aware, when you're confident and grounded in yourself, then even if it's someone else's words, there's truth to that, you find what that truth is and you tap into that and then you, and then you tell the story for yourself. You know, it's not your story. You connect with some part of the character or the store, and you're telling you, take it in yourself and then you share it with the rest of the world. So I think that, I think you're perfectly right. I think that's, that's, that's brilliant. Yeah.
58m 25s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
And I think you should teach classes because you said it in a way that was really great. It's like, if you are authentic and dropped into yourself, then it almost, maybe doesn't matter whose words you're saying, because you're still the truth. The truth of what you are saying will come out. So maybe there's something about truth there. I think I always just felt like I wasn't telling the truth a lot of times when I'm saying, and also I go in a lot for like under fives, right? So under five lines and on and on TV shows and films, it's really hard to find the truth. And like, but you know, and like the salsa tastes great. Like that's my life. And so I can get their, but it is a different, it's a whole different film and TV
59m 9s
Gina Pulice
Is like, and you're at school. Did they do w for example, you know, NYU does different studios. You either learn the
59m 21s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Experiment.
59m 22s
Gina Pulice
What, who, what system or methods did you learn?
59m 25s
Leslie Ivery
I don't know
59m 28s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Either ours was a mish-mash. Yeah.
59m 32s
Leslie Ivery
Our course leader was very steeped into traditional, like Eastern Chinese medicine. And so a lot of her, which I thought was great in theory, but let me finish a lot of, it was very like you and Meridian pathway's and you're energy and your solar plexus and how it's connecting to your apart. And, and yes, I mean, it was, it was, it was great, I think about and very practical, practical, but it was, it was really great in theory. So it was almost like connecting your kind of higher self and your energy levels with your partner and the scene and that, and so, and because she was the course leader, all the people she hired under her for the most part were all pretty much in the same wavelength as her. And that was one of my gripes that I also mentioned when we, when we met on clubhouse was the fact that I was expecting to go to this school where there were, I was learning from teachers all around the world, and there are different techniques and practices and methods so that I could pull from all of them, forgot what works and throw and what doesn't work. And then I go and apply. But here there was kind of one way of working. And when it didn't work, I was kind of like shut up luck and I had to go fund fun for myself. So, I mean, there, there are pros and cons, it worked beautifully for some did not work for others. So it wasn't very adaptable, but that was kind of what it was seeped upon wishes.
1h 0m 50s
Gina Pulice
I've never heard of that. I've never heard of anybody learning from somebody who was, yeah. And
1h 0m 57s
Leslie Ivery
It's interesting. She has, the book is great. The energetic performer is her book by Amanda Brennon. And it's a really interesting read, but for me it was how do I apply this practically in the scene as I'm doing it when there are a million other things in my head that are going around as I'm, you know, performing whatever scene that I'm in I'm, but it's interesting perspective. And it's an interesting perspective.
1h 1m 19s
Gina Pulice
Did you learn like More just relating it to your own experiences or calling now?
1h 1m 30s
Leslie Ivery
Undergrad? I did. My undergrad was very, very steep in Meisner and, and I didn't know, it was nice there until someone pointed it out and was like, oh, okay, great. And then I realize, and all my training, the theater I had just happened to have been my summer training.
1h 1m 42s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Do you like Meisner? What's your thought on Meisner?
1h 1m 44s
Leslie Ivery
I mean, it's fine. I, I don't, I, I don't have much else to compare it to because it was all Meisner, so I don't really know our rest and this last game, I respect it, but I haven't put it into practice. So I'm not really sure how I feel about my, and it's worked thus far, so I guess I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1h 2m 3s
Gina Pulice
What about mentors? Did you have mentors?
1h 2m 7s
Leslie Ivery
Absolutely. So the one who I, my director and undergrad who ended up helping me get all the jobs off Broadway he's to this day 100%. And he's my best, bud. I love and to the desert. And it's Christopher Scott, if you're in New York, he's, he's just, he's so wonderful. Been like my rock just since day one. And actually, and I met him, I was the middle of having no become a quarter-life crisis. And so I was like, screw, acting, screw all of this. I was gonna transfer school was and go fight terrorism and the CIA, just, and a spur of the moment.
1h 2m 38s
Gina Pulice
Cause you were, you really loved Angelina Jolie's character in Salt.
1h 2m 44s
Leslie Ivery
And then I went to the site and I was really fired up and I was just determined to make a change. And then I met him and it just, I got back on track and it was fine, but yeah, because you just want it to play a CIA person and the scale. And then what, but I realized was that theater, especially with him, was that escape that I needed at the time of my life. And it just really worked out because I was going off from my grandpa passed away and he was my rock too. And so I think it was just a lot of emotions and not really knowing how to navigate those emotions in and regulate them and just understand them. So I was seeking this way out and, and, and I just ended up being, let them at him. So it just ended up being just channeling through theater.
1h 3m 25s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Did they cut people from your program or like, oh, okay.
1h 3m 30s
Leslie Ivery
They should've called us because a few people that I was like this, and this is toxic, but you know, yeah.
1h 3m 39s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
There is something to be said for, for what, whether you call it cutting or not taking people aside and saying, Hey, you might need to address X, Y, and Z. Before you look at becoming an actor, whether it's your mental health, whether it's whatever it is. So maybe not cutting people, but you're right there. I mean, in terms of some people, if it's toxic, you're not doing anyone any favors by keeping someone in a program. So now, cause I just thought, oh, cutting is terrible. It's all T but way the second, if someone's really not a fit and the program, there is a question of what to do with them.
1h 4m 16s
Leslie Ivery
And I don't know if it was a matter of, well, you know, the world is toxic and you had a lot to do with these personalities. I don't know if that was element well, I'm inclined to believe it was an element of I'm going to avoid confrontation. And so therefore I'm going to just kind of stay silent or I'm going to say, okay, sure. I hear you. And then do nothing. And, and I should not have been the one taking the initiative, pulling people aside and saying, you are toxic. It should have come from me. And, and even though it did it, wasn't heated because I've been in the day, I'm a peer, right. It's not coming from our course leader. So no matter how pissed off I get, it only goes so far.
1h 4m 53s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
So that toxicity remained. Yeah.
1h 4m 58s
Gina Pulice
We're very interested in like what's happening with people emotionally and psychologically while they're in school. Do you, did you know any, like shifts for you in terms of your emotional, psychological wellbeing? Did it get challenge?
1h 5m 12s
Leslie Ivery
Yeah. I had a really big shift. I probably in January, so sort of been on my way halfway through our course I, who I had it out with a few people in my class because, so we were, we came into new semester and we had a new project. The project was that every year they put on, they take a screenplay. Right. And we'll do sections or the screenplay and we'll have costumes, we'll have a whole semester and just character analysis and we'll go take a nice deep dive. So we did the film bell. Have you seen that with the Google and both the raw? So it's a P it's a period piece and it's about it's set and like 1749. And it's an England and it's a black woman and she, her father is why. And so her probably bringing her over to the families. And so she's going and how to navigate the, the 18th century. You, the aristocracy at the black woman. And meanwhile, you know, there's like this big, her, her and her grandfather and he's like a Supreme court judge. And so he's having to deal with this new case of the slave ship that was being drowned and tends to be or not, but he's having to preside over this case. So there are all of these it at the center of it is race. I mean, it's about her navigating this world. So this was the play we're going to do. There are two of us who are, who were black women in the course. So at the teachers like great, there's two women, men, they can handle it. And then everyone else, you know, we'll divvy it up. You choose your character and we'll go from there. So how it started was actually our course leader was on vacation or the time. So now the teachers stepped in and, and he came to me and he said, okay, just for this project, we're actually going to open up this character of Dido, who was a black woman, too, the rest of your female counterparts who are not of color at all. And, and would you mind sharing your experiences as a black woman to your, to your classmates? And, and, and let me say this, the person, the teacher who was talking to me, I adore him. And immediately I was like, yes, of course, of course, because he's the person that you just don't, you just do anything for. Cause he's so genuine. And he, and I just really vibe and super great level. And then at home, and then that was like, oh, wait a minute, come on, dad. And I was like, this isn't, something's not, this is not right. This is not okay. I was going home. I was like screaming. And I was like, 'cause the thing about it is that sure I can share my experiences. They don't, they don't give a shit. Because what I learned was that they are more concerned with how many lawns for the, the play who was on the screen, who was the lead, who, you know, who gets happy, the lead. So, so w we went back to teacher and I said, no, you will not open it up to, to my, my peers who are not of color, because this whole industry is built to exclude people of color. And if they feel excluded, then that's, that's the lesson to be learned for them to take on as they go out in the world. And so he said, okay, you know what? You're right. Let's, you're right. We'll close it off. So we close it off and that's when shit hit the fan. So there were protests within our class of, well, well, why can I play the lead role? And as a matter that she's black, who cares it, isn't about race racism, doesn't matter. You know, why do you feel that? Why are you angry? Why don't you feel that what you do? And what really got me was the fact that, and explaining, I shouldn't have had to explain myself, but, and trying to explain to my classmates respectfully, why this is an issue instead of being heard, I was being, you know, pushed back and shouted at and not listened to. And that's, and that's, that's what was the issue for me? There's one thing to, to, you know, educate your peers or to have a conversation when you came in and let me speak about my own experiences as a black woman, that's an issue for me. So it got to the point where we had another person and their employee at the school come into our classes. But at this point, our class was starting just the fracture. She comes for the classes to talk about empathy and race relations, and what's okay. Was that okay? And it just blew up even further. And the, and the discussion where you think people would be like, oh, okay. We understand it's hard for people of color in the world and know it was well, it's unfair because I should be getting this. I mean, it was just privilege. That's all the way, just privilege about. And, and so they try, we had several discussions and discussions and it just got worse and worse. And so the point where the teachers just gave up and then we just kept going. And so at the end, so, you know, he did the scenes and it was over and at the MRI at the end of the course, I had a talk with our course leader and she's like, so do you think, you know, the, the, the class has gotten better, it's gotten healed. I was like, no, I mean, we were so fractured after that. Absolutely. No. Oh, and I'm sorry, before, but by a week before that, all that happened, we were filming a scene. So you get, you have a partner and you can choose what on camera scene. You're going to do someone decided to film a scene from Django.
1h 10m 9s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
Oh, no, no, no.
1h 10m 14s
Leslie Ivery
So you're cringing because you all know what's coming. So I just don't have the same access to the other or the, for my fellow, you know, black woman who was on the court, if you just have, and just provide each other. And I think we have partnered in the scene or something and I'm, and she said she had the main, she said, did I just hear that? And I was like, who would have heard that? And she was like, okay, so we can go on and rehearse some lines. And then we hear her and she was like, send me. And we just, and we just like stopped. Oh my God. And so finally they saw it, and this is a short scene. And granted, I, should you not? They said it at least like seven times and this yes, because then the whole movie, I mean, not that that's an excuse, but that's to be expected. So, and the seen and money, this is with our tutor, our instructor are, you know, this was all the whole class here. And, and, and we were like, what just happened? And the response was, oh, well its just the movie. So one of the gentlemen was from Croatia and the other was from I think Columbia, but it was just war issues. The film's what's the big deal. That was the first response to us saying, do you not see an issue with this? That was the very first thing to be said, so this and how it started. And then after all of that started was everything was the movie with bell. So, and so this has been several months of this class. And so, and, and I think that's probably why I also was grateful for us moving online because that also meant that I no longer had to be in the same room as all this toxic, toxic people who didn't value me as a person who asked me repeatedly to push away a fight, my identity for sake of a class exercise, you know? And like I can, if I had to, no it's pandemic has been so, so hard and people will, but if it meant I could be home in a safe, I was, I was not safe. That's the thing. I was not in a safe place. Yeah. And I did not feel open. I didn't feel supported by my peers. So how could it be trained as a better actor if I don't even feel like I'm in a safe space and give my best self, the, of course I'm gonna shut out and close off because you, you, you all shown yourselves to me. But that being said that, and it self taught me so much because that was kind of the first real awakening that I've had about myself and my relationship, my racial identity and others. And I think, you know, screw, acting, training, screw movement, laying on the floor, that was a class in itself. Right. And how I'm going to enter the world, especially in this industry. And that taught me all I needed to know. And how did the handle it, how to go forward? I don't
1h 12m 47s
Gina Pulice
Know if you happen to listen to the episode we did with the only other person so far that we've talked to, who was he he's graduating like next month he is a black man who had to, he felt he had to come in and I think for good reasons, he had to come in to the program and say, you, you, this all needs to change. And he started at basically a movement S because the, the, the class constellation you're describing is, sounds familiar to like our class, which was 25 years ago, his class was, was it positive? He said it was half
1h 13m 24s
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
The time, half black people and half other. And they were, I think Latino's and stuff like that too. But, but, but he, but yes they are.
1h 13m 36s
Gina Pulice
Yeah. So it sounds like at your school, they hadn't had ma was this maybe the first time
1h 13m 42s
Leslie Ivery
Oh, interesting. Is that they did the same move and they did bell to years ago. And that's why the course leader was like, I'm so surprised we did this. And it went over perfectly looks. So you expect it that this is going to be every year you do this, it's going to be perfectly fine. Like, this is you, you didn't, you didn't foresee any issues with doing this with this class when you've already had several months of a class, we already know who's the people who are kind of, you know, have toxic, like quality kind of shown themselves. People who don't see color. God don't, it don't eat. So, yeah. So, so just the obliviousness or the refusal to acknowledge, you know, and like I said, does the whole time she was off on, off, on vacation, right. And her books. So she put this kind of in the lap of, you know, her, her the next line of succession and yeah. And, and, and went on her Merry way. No, that she would have done any health if she were their, but still the sheer action of choosing this screen and then bouncing and they come back like, oh my God, it is just so irresponsible. So sorry, that
1h 14m 57s
Gina Pulice
Character, but I guess, and that, that is probably, yeah, like you're saying that was a, such an important lesson that is shaping probably. I mean, that is introducing the experience that you're unfortunately bound to have
1h 15m 11s
Leslie Ivery
Some of the multiple, I've been fortunate enough to wear a fortunate, unfortunate, where I've never been aware, I've never had issue and there's never been any race issues with me. I've always just kind of gone through my life without ever having to validate my existence, which can not be set for many people of color, but that's just how I've been able to kind of get by. And I think it came at the right time because it came in a moment and the age where I was already kind of confident myself, I already have my batteries and still, I knew how to speak out and not just sit back and, and hold it up and take it. So I'm glad that it happened to me because I know that it, it can have a lot harsher effects and others, and it's just, it sucks. And it's just all about navigating these waters. And short times are changing that as a mean shit. I mean, you know, at least not right now, you, you still have to hold your own, you know, you said there's so much work doing yourself first.
1h 16m 8s
Gina Pulice
Have you seen that thing? I just saw it on social yesterday. The meter like is so it's like the red is segregate is slavery. And then the yellow is segregation. And then, you know, we're in this tiny little section, that's, you know, such a small representation of our nation's history. Well, I look at the risk of ending on a really heavy now. I still want people to know where
1h 16m 35s
Leslie Ivery
To find you. So I'm trying to be better with social media, because I think its just the worst thing and the world, but I'm, I'm having a turning point in my life. So I'm finding and Instagram, I suppose I'm just less. And Nicole ivory, your website, you have a website, every.com. It's all really easy to just type in my name and you'll find me.
1h 16m 56s
Gina Pulice
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I Survived Theatre School is an Undeniable Ink. Production. Jen Bosworth- Ramirez and Gina Pulice are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Pulice. for more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable, Ink. Please visit our website at undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: looking your best before death,
Let Me Run This By You: On the subject of grit.
Interview: We talk to P.J. Powers
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina Pulice. We went to theatre school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
1
00:00:29
We could do both at once. Yeah, exactly. Okay. That's what I need to hold out for. Just when I need a surgery for something that's. Can I just get the guy from plastics in here? Just give me a little, a little, a little lift. So my mom had this condition where she had her eyelids were drooping, you know, and it was like, and so did all my, all her sisters have the same thing. And so she wanted this surgery that was going to do that. You can't see on the podcast, but it's really funny. I looked insane, but the thing was my mom, and this is sad and funny when she was sort of dying of cancer, decided she wanted all these things done. It was so weird. And the doctors were like, like implants.
1
00:01:11
She got implants right before she died. Teeth implants. Oh, oh, whoops. Oh my God. Oh my God. That would be insane. That would be fantastic. Actually. I want to be the best looking on that fuckable Corp. Yeah, exactly. No boobs, but she wanted, she wanted, she got teeth. I mean, teeth is something you kind of need, so it's not, but I was like, mom, are you sure the ones in the back you need to be getting because you can't see them and you're going through chemo and this is insane, but she wanted it. So she had like 15 grand worth of teeth put in or 20 grand. And then she died two months later and I was like, can we get a refund two months?
1
00:01:51
It was rough. It was rough. But anyway, she wanted to meet St. Peter looking her best. And she wanted that eye surgery done. And they were like, listen, ma'am, you're like literally riddled with cancer. Like I not sure putting you under the knife to get your eyelids is, but she, she was in denial and she didn't want to, of course, who wants to really look at, oh yeah, all this is feudal. Cause I'm going to die soon. So she's like, okay. She was like trying to, she was buying the rebel. She was buying time. I know somebody who had that eyelid surgery done. And then they just look like their eyes are wide open. It's a little startling. It's a little startling. What's happening with your band.
1
00:02:32
So they're in Seattle playing some shows and I did not go with them clearly. And they're, they're doing fine. Their new single came out and they are they're okay. And, but meaning I want it to get into like, I'm really into the informational interview, even though I have to drag myself to go and I I'm the one who asked for it. I'm so dumb. But I went and she was, she was lovely. And gave me the ropes of like, this is what managers actually do. So I'm just educating myself because you know, I'm not going to grad school for music management. I'm not going to do that. And she was lovely. She's an amazing person.
1
00:03:13
And she's a friend of my cousins and she agreed to meet with me and yeah, nothing. I'm just in, I'm still, I guess all this to say, I'm still in the information gathering stage and I'm just seeing what's out there in the world. Jobs. People do like studs, Terkel. I'm just conducting your own research. Let Me Run This By
1
00:04:02
And, and it's kind of part of bootstraps culture and American blah, blah, blah. But I just looked up the definition to remind myself and it means courage and resolve strength of character. I feel like people when they talk about grit often mean, Hm, just muscling through something without, without acknowledging the complexity of it in any way, as opposed to what it really is, which is encourage has a lot to do with it. Oh, I find there's a real lack of courage.
1
00:04:45
I agree. I think that the, the epitome of grit to me is when I'm midway or three quarters of the way up the hill when I'm hiking. And I literally have to, while I'm gritting my teeth and I literally have to pull up from the depths of me, I do anything I can to hold on to just say, keep going up the hill because I want to turn around, like, everything in me wants to turn around. And the thing that keeps me going is encouragement from myself and others, like Gisa, my friend, even though I want to strangle her when she's doing it and a deep well of resolve that, I don't know where it comes from.
1
00:05:33
Like it is, it is, it is like when people talk about marathon running and they're like, I don't know that something kicks in and I, and I have this, it's this courage to just keep going. It is grit is excruciating. It is not like, you know, oh, just give it a try. It is like, it sounds, and I've obviously never, I mean, I've never given birth. So, but like that is to me when it sounds like when you're three quarters of the way pushing a baby out and you just want to die, but you, but you keep going because you have, that's where grit to me that's comes into play. You know, it's a more physiological thing that I think people realize, yes, I agree with you.
1
00:06:16
And also I think it is not so much taught, like explicitly taught behavior as it is people pick it up when other people are modeling it for them. Mostly I was talking to somebody recently who said, you know, I'm just not a soldier. Like this is one of my problems in life is I'm not, I'm not a soldier. And I thought about it and I thought, okay, well I am a soldier. I mean, I will just, I will keep going on, which is not. And it's not always great. No, but it just, that is, it doesn't occur to me a lot of the time to not do something. And I don't really question in the way that I feel like my kids, for example, question, why do I have to do that?
1
00:06:58
Or, you know, I'm back just as a side note, I recently started saying like, you know what, I don't have to give you a reason because I've gotten stuck in this thing of like rationalizing every decision because they, they I've shaped that behavior. And then they say, why, why, why do I have to do that? So if you're, if people in your life don't model grit for you, they don't model sticking things through to the end, having a career, adopting a courageous attitude and then strength of character. I don't know. I D I don't see a ton of it. I feel like represented just in our culture. And, but, or when it is, it's talked about in this like American military, it's a real sort of white dude, John Wayne kind of strengthened character.
1
00:07:52
Yes. A hundred percent. That's what it is. It's the John Wayne. It's the, it's the clinics. What thing? And sure. I mean, those people are, and we're probably gritty, but that's, and maybe also, because it often gets portrayed as like a male thing, the cowboy thing. And I really think that we all could benefit from having a little bit more in the way of the, especially the courage and the strength of character agreed a hundred percent. And it's interesting when I think of grit, I think of like sandpaper, you know? And so it, it, it can, it can create it. It shapes you, right?
1
00:08:33
So grit being happy, being gritty and being, and B having strength of character really shapes us. And I agree that we don't see models of it other than white dudes, you know, going to war, you know, like that, that doesn't, that's not a model I had that model of my mom, but it was, it, it was so she had hers turned into workaholism and this idea of the resentment projects whose that been projects. And, and, and I was going to say resentment projects. I was gonna say, it turned into like, yeah. Bootstrap mentality and an immigrant, and you have to do everything yourself.
1
00:09:13
So I think, again, you know, for me, it comes down to balance. It's like, I don't know, like we were talking about canceling plans, but like, I don't, I used to be really bad at knowing, like, what is an actual good reason to not go to work because I'd be sick and I'd go to work or I'd be sick and I'd whatever. And then the other side of me, it was like, well, I'm just going to cancel it. I'm just going to cancel. But it's balance of like, no, no, no, no. This is actually grit means staying home right now. Sure, sure. Cause sometimes that is what it means. I never learned when, like when, so I'm figuring that out, like checking in. Okay. She is the strength of character thing to do here.
1
00:09:53
Show up for this thing. I don't want to show up, I E the doctor to get my blood pressure checked and my weight checked or that's the route that is, or is the right thing to do, you know, this isn't this, you know, if it's something really not in, not feeling right. And it's not because of fear that I'm not going, or like, you know, or what's the self-care thing to do. And I, and I, I struggle with knowing what the self-care thing to do is, but I'm getting better at it. I'm getting better at it at 45. I'm getting better at saying no, no, no. The true grit thing here to do is actually stay home. But it's real hard. It's real tricky because you have people telling you, you sh you, you know, there's messages, like you said, like the do culture, the, the doing bootstrap culture will tell you just true grit is going to work sick.
1
00:10:38
Right, right, right. Yeah. I, yeah. I, yeah. And I think for my own personal sense of grit, if I asked, I think the, the money for me is more in like figuring out the thing that I'm not being courageous about because that's something, you know, I, I encountered that with conflict a lot. Like, I mean, I, I'm in a lot of positions in life that forced me to embrace conflict. And I guess that's been a good thing, but my default setting is still to, you know, not wanting to avoid conflict, want to kind of shrink into the background. And oftentimes that's because of, I mean, one of the main things that the black lives matter movement has exposed for me personally, is my lack of courage when it has come to participating in white supremacist culture, which usually for me ends up being like, not saying anything, when things are said that I know are wrong, that's pretty much the way that I feel like it's happened.
1
00:11:39
So, yeah. And I, you know, it was interesting. I think that that is, so this is so weird. It goes back to the theater school one time Peyton and I were visiting a theater school, friends' parents, and they started say really anti Latinex stuff, anti, and no one said anything. And, and then Peyton, and I can say his name. Cause it's the truth. Peyton said to me, why didn't you say anything as if it was my job only, he's like, that's your culture? Why don't you speak up? And I just felt ashamed, but now I'm thinking, why didn't you say anything you add? Oh, absolutely. Cause that's another part of the white supremacist culture is like FA always ferreting out the emotional labor to the person who's being oppressed.
1
00:12:25
It's so weird now I'm like, now I want to like have him on the podcast just to confront him about this, but I don't know how that would go. But, but, but it, I, it is exposed to me too. Like I do this, I do the same thing. So even in situations where I'm not the one being targeted, I sh I need to say things and you know what? Yeah, I totally get by what you're saying. I grit. True grit. What is true grit. Yeah. Well, what can we just follow up? What was your process like? We'd last time we talked, I just wanted to follow up on the, the, the, you had received an email and you worked with yourself and you responded to that email.
1
00:13:06
Yeah. So I, yes, I, and it, the result was that the person didn't respond to me after that, which I think is actually a good sign because there wasn't anything to say, like to refute what I was saying. I kind of, you know, sometimes you can really dead an issue by just being like, very matter of fact and unemotional, that's sort of a key for me. It's like, if I try to go back over something and take the emotion, you know, what is like my intention and in my emotion. And I just try to make it like, cause what I ended up saying to this person is I am setting a boundary with you. You don't like the boundary I am setting that's okay. I'm still going to set the boundary because it's not only you.
1
00:13:47
I have to think of it's it's part of a bigger picture. Oh, that's some good stuff right there. That's some true grit. I think that's some true grit. You know, one of the best DBT techniques is called broken record. And it's just exactly what it sounds like when you set a boundary with somebody and then they say, blah, blah, blah, blah. You just say, I am setting a boundary with you. I am setting a boundary with you. This is still an example of a boundary I'm setting. Yes. I see you. Don't like the boundary I'm setting. I mean, broken record because sometimes people don't hear it until you've said it 5,000. That is fantastic. You know what I need to do? Say it to myself, set the boundary like this. I want to go to McDonald's and I haven't, but I say it frequently.
1
00:14:29
And then I have to say, I'm setting a boundary with yourself. We're not going. I know you, you think you want to go, I hear that. You want to go, we're not going. So then that's, that's something I'm going to try to do with myself. Broken record, broken record. Yeah. Like it's just, it's it. This is it. There's not, you're not, no matter because I feel like where those things fall apart is in the re when people and I can, the example I gave with my kids, like when we're talking through the reason of it, it's like, no, no, no, you don't. We don't really even have to go there. It's just this, this is just the boundary. That's just, it. That's all you need to know about it. Oh, that's so great. That is so great. I'm going to try it with myself first and see how it goes.
1
00:15:10
And then I'm going to try it with others and see how that goes. I don't really have to. It's interesting. I think I haven't been in a situation, especially pandemic wise and since I don't have like a job job where I've had to practice that that much, but I'm sure they're coming. I'm sure because it's life that's right. It's coming. And so may you too, dear listeners know the power. I don't have to give you a reason
0
00:15:40
Today on the podcast from talking with PJ powers, PJ was an acting major at DePaul university at the theater school. He graduated and he went on to co-found timeline theater company in 1997, which is an amazing theater company in Chicago. And he became the artistic director there in 1999, where he still is the artistic director, quite an amazing feat. He's quite amazing guy. Let's enjoy our conversation with PJ powers, power what's happening. How are you guys doing
1
00:16:23
Nice to see you? I just realized we will look like IRA glass. You know, it's
3
00:16:28
Funny. I was, I was asked at a Starbucks once. If I was IRA glass, when I was like the, the, the barista was like, are you here for glass? I said, yes, I am.
1
00:16:39
You're actually, I would say you're a better looking. Yeah.
3
00:16:43
Well that's very generous. Thank you.
1
00:16:46
Hi, PJ powers. Congratulations. You survived. I was just looking at your resume and God damn. Did you theater school? Like you have done a lot since you graduated, including co-founding a theater company receiving all the types of awards, Geoff citations here, and they're coming out the wazoo. I mean, my God, have you always been this
3
00:17:13
Well, first of all, thank you. That's that's overly generous. I don't, I don't know if I've always been this driven. I mean, if you had told me any single day during my four years at the theater school, Hey dude, someday you'll start a theater company and then there'll be an artistic director. I w I mean, I would have laughed you out of the room. It was, it was so not even in the realm of, of ideas that, that I had. So I don't know. I mean, I, I, I like to say I sort of lucked into my dream job that I never knew was my dream job. And, and, and it happened kind of unexpectedly a couple years after getting out of school.
1
00:17:58
Yeah. So when you, when you got together with that group of people, which is Nick bowling and who else? Juliette Hart, D w were you just going to do the one play or D were you trying to start a theater? Well,
3
00:18:11
Nick was trying to start a theater company. I most definitely was not. I was, I was the naysayer at, at first. So he was, he was the grand visionary.
1
00:18:24
The story about meeting in the basement or someone's garden, apartment of Susan,
4
00:18:29
Susan
3
00:18:31
Basements. Why, why were we in basement? But it was
4
00:18:37
Like, Hey, I, I got this room for free.
1
00:18:40
Oh, and it was Lily or somebody who told him the world doesn't need that.
4
00:18:44
Right. That's true. Yeah. Lily was like,
3
00:18:46
I want no part of this dude. So she, like, she like planted a little seed in Nick's head of, you know, you should actually have a mission before you start a theater company. And Nick was like, oh right, let me work on that. But he, he pulled us together. This was in spring of, of 1997. So yeah, just actually two weeks ago today we celebrated our 24th birthday
4
00:19:13
Nuts,
3
00:19:14
Nuts. So he, he pulled us together late at night. I remember I, I went to see a show by like ushered for a show at Steppenwolf that night. And then I was like, oh, I got to go to some like late night meeting with bowling. I don't know what this is about and showed up late at night. And he like laid out this grand vision of, I think we should start a theater company. And, and I was the one who kind of peed in the Punchbowl that night, because he also said, and I think we should focus on exploring history. That's, that's what our theater companies should be. And I said, that sounds kinda kind of awful.
3
00:19:56
I don't know that I ever want to attend that theater, let alone run it. So, so I, I was kind of the stick in the mud, but wiser heads prevailed that night. And, and, and we started to talk about like, well, what does it mean to have a theater company that explores history? Like, is there a way that, that isn't lame and dusty? And, and so we, we had a great conversation that night. And at the end of the night, we all like had some assignments, some to do. And, you know, remember this is 1997. Like I think maybe I had just gotten an email address. Me, maybe so like to schedule a meeting was a thing.
3
00:20:42
So my, my assignment was schedule our second meeting a couple of weeks went by, I was not scheduling any meetings because I was, you know, I was two years out of school. I was on a path to be an actor, which is kind of why you go to a BFA acting conservatory. And I was starting to get some work. You know, I was not blazing a path to start them by any means, but I was, you know, working at some of the off loop theaters that I had really admired. And I thought, all right, I need to stay on this path. At the same time I was working at theaters that I really admired. And then once I got behind the curtain, I was like, this place is a hot mess.
3
00:21:25
Like, what is who's in charge here? What, what are these decisions being the art decisions being made. So I was kind of, you know, internally grappling with that, but I did not think, well, all right, buddy, then you do a better, so two weeks. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah.
1
00:21:41
Go. Oh, no. I was just going to ask, I just wanted to know, like that initial meeting that you all had, what made you not say no? What made you say I'll keep going with this?
3
00:21:53
I don't know if you've met Nick bowling, but he doesn't take no as an answer. That's true. Good point.
4
00:22:00
I have been in a room with, I mean, I've
3
00:22:03
Been working with this guy now for God, 27 years, 27 years. I can't, I can't can't quit you. And so, you know, he was persuasive and, and I, I, I loved this group of people and I, and I remembered like, oh yeah, we, we did something together at school two years ago and it was kind of magical. And I'm, I'm missing that collaboration in my solo work.
1
00:22:32
I, I feel, I do have to push back on this idea that you were always driven though, because I mean like my recollection of you was Mr. Go-go go. Like, I, I, I, not Mr. Laid back like smoke, do it. Let's see what happens, where we just let the night on for, you always seem like, no, you just always seem like a person who had a plan of action. And like, I'm doing this, and then I'm doing this. And like, you're not wasting any time. So maybe, maybe it didn't feel to you. Like you were super ambitious. Well, you weren't ambitious to start a theater company before you did, but you, you seem like you have always been highly
3
00:23:10
Mobile. That's very kind. I, you know, I do have one strange memory and I've, I've, I've heard other people on this podcast talk about like those brutal questions that GMO would like, you know, pose, pose to us. Like just before graduation, like, you know, the big life questions, like, all right, what do you actually want to do now? Like you, you've got, you've got your degree, what you're going to do. And I remember being like, just gobsmacked by those questions, like, I don't know, what does success look like? But I have this faint memory that one of the questions was, you know what, what's something that you think nobody knows or that you don't know about yours.
3
00:23:51
I said something like that, you know, what's, what's some characteristic of yours that, that most people don't know. And I remember answering it, I think I could be a leader of something, but I've never had the chance. And I, you know, in my, my infinite 21 year old wisdom, like there, there was some little part of me that thought like, okay, I think I can, I think I want to do something more than what I'm doing. But prior
1
00:24:17
To all of this, you were set to be an actor. Did you do acting? And yeah.
3
00:24:21
Yeah. I S I started when I was like five, so I did it. I did it a lot as, as a kid, I started doing some like professional children's theater as, as a teenager. So I, yeah, I was doing a ton, ironically though, I had no thought of going to a conservatory. I came to Chicago to tour Loyola, where my sister had gone to school. And, and one of my teachers through, I did a summer theater program called cherubs at, at Northwestern, you know, it's for it's for kids going into their senior year of high school. And one of the teachers at cherubs said, you should look at DePaul. I think that's a program that, and I was like, I'm not going to a conservatory.
3
00:25:02
I thought like, I need a liberal arts degree, even though I'd been acting. So I came to look at Loyola, it sort of didn't flip my skirt. And then I was like, all right, I'll begrudgingly, go look at DePaul and, and walked out of that building like two hours later. And my dad turned to me and he said, this is where I'm going to school. Right. And I said, yep. And I did. And I auditioned, like in December, I got in and it was like done,
1
00:25:25
Wait, I never did a tour. Did you do a tour specifically? Just of the theater? So it was a whole campus.
3
00:25:32
It was a bit of an ordeal. Like we had an appointment to meet with, I guess, Melissa, Melissa Meltzer. Who's director of admissions at the time. So we just like showed up and were like standing, you know, inside the entryway Kenmore. And like, nobody is there and no one's greeting us. And we're kind of like, did we screw something up? And so there was a lot of like weird looks between people. And finally someone was like, oh yeah, well, this is not here today. I think she's out sick. Let me see if we can get someone else to talk to you. So they went and found John Bridges. So me course, my parents like sat in Bridge's office for two hours.
3
00:26:15
And John Bridges sold me on the theater school. Like,
1
00:26:21
Wow, wait, the whole time you were just sitting in this office and that's what made you leave and say, I'm going to this theater school in John. I see you in John. Not telling us what's the, yeah.
4
00:26:33
That's how he works. The hidden hand. I don't even
3
00:26:36
Know if he ever knew that, but when, when he was finally retiring, I like wrote him a letter saying like, you're kind as the reason that my life ended up the way my life ended up. So
1
00:26:46
It was truly that meeting that's sitting in there that, that changed you from, I don't want to go to conservatory to,
3
00:26:51
Yeah. There was something about that, that dumpy old building on Kenmore that just seemed
4
00:26:57
Kind of exotic and attractive.
3
00:26:59
And I was like, I think these are my people. I, I don't need like fancy glitzy buildings and programs. And I was like, there's something that just feels authentic about this place. And I, and I loved Chicago. I grew up just outside Detroit. So I'm, you know, I'm Midwestern boy. So it, it just felt, it felt right. And what's funny is, so that, that weird experience I had standing in the lobby of like, oh, there's no one actually here for me happened again. When I came back to audition. Cause like I flew into town by myself. I'm like, thanks, mom and dad, I just, just, you know, good luck, get on a plane and, and took a cab to the theater school, like on a Friday. And the audition was Saturday morning and they were supposed to have a student host me for the night.
3
00:27:47
Oh yeah, yeah. Or, or in their apartment or something. And so it was December. So, you know, people were on break. So there's not many people around the building. So again, I showed up and they're like, Ooh, yeah, we dropped the ball. There's no one to host
4
00:28:01
80 years old. I'm
3
00:28:02
In Chicago. And I'm like, okay, where do I stay? Pull
1
00:28:06
Up the mat and room for three.
4
00:28:09
They just started like walking around
3
00:28:11
The lounge there. And they're like, Hey, I willing to have this dude crash out. And still Jess, Jessica something, I'm forgetting her last name.
1
00:28:25
Yeah. Yeah. She was like, yeah, I'll take you. So she, she took me to dinner at salt and
4
00:28:31
Pepper and I like crashed on her couch
3
00:28:34
Audition the next day. Okay. Okay.
1
00:28:35
Thank you, Jess. I see you too. You're you're pointing out all these fabulous people who have already been on our podcast
4
00:28:42
Previous episodes.
1
00:28:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jess was on it. Okay. So did you came from Michigan? Did you apply to any other
3
00:28:50
Schools? Huh? I think I still did apply to Loyola, but, but no, I was like laser-focused. I mean, I suppose the only place I auditions, the only conservatory I considered, I think I had like maybe a fallback, small liberal arts school or something, but I wasn't ever, but
1
00:29:07
Did somebody show up to watch you audition? Yeah. There, there
3
00:29:11
Were people there. I have, I have like close to no memory of that day. I remember sitting at salt and pepper the night before, just like staring out the window at the El tracks on Lincoln. And just thinking this place feels so exotic, but I have no memory of the actual auditions.
1
00:29:33
You don't know what you didn't do you have no memory of your monologues? Zilch, Zippo. I, I remember the like atmosphere or the environment that the people, but I don't remember what I did
3
00:29:47
And the large movement room. That's why I remember. And I was like, this room smells like wet socks.
1
00:29:57
And you didn't know that that was just the bottom. You didn't know where that room could go.
3
00:30:02
No. The type of inappropriate touching that would ensue for the next four years in that room, the sort of things that today would just never, ever, ever be allowed.
1
00:30:14
That was going to be my next question. I mean, did you find the whole thing, like much more touchy, feely, just odd than you expected it to be?
3
00:30:28
I guess not because I had done the cherub program, which was all sorts of touchy, feely, you know, it, it kind of, it's an intense, like five weeks sort of mini conservatory where, you know, from 9:00 AM, till 10:00 PM, you're doing classes and then you're rehearsing at night. I mean, it, it really is sort of a mini version, which I think is why one of my teachers there said, Hey, you seem into this, I know a program, you know, cross down that, that does this. So, and I think because I had done so much theater in, in Detroit, it, it felt, it felt natural. However, the big difference was once I got to DePaul, I was like, oh, I feel like I also found my people.
3
00:31:11
Like, I, I was used to sort of the, the work, but never felt like I had the right people surrounding me. But at DePaul, I don't know. I, I, I found some of them in 27 years still. You're still with them. I'm still attached to the hip to some of them.
1
00:31:29
So tell us about the life of an artistic director. I mean, I don't know. I think people who are, who have been part of starting theater companies know about it, but I don't think the greater population knows about the work that goes into being an artistic director. So tell us about your job there.
3
00:31:46
It's totally glamorous.
1
00:31:49
You make tons of money. Everyone loves me. No one questions,
4
00:31:55
You know, sit around swirling
3
00:31:57
Bourbon in my ass, got all day, you know, throwing scripts against the wall that I think are, are no, no, no, well, I, I guess I'll start by saying, and it took me a long time to figure this out. Cause I, I then, so 1997 we tried we'd we'd started the theater company, but then I didn't become artistic director until 99 after Nick had a job opportunity that he couldn't refuse. And so I sort of stepped into the role, not knowing what it was. And so, you know, I was 26 years old, you know, we had, we had a budget of like, you know, 12.
3
00:32:41
And so it took me a while to figure out not only what is the job of the artistic director, but more importantly, what, what is my version of being an artistic director? And I say that because I have an acting background, I'm not a director still to this day. I've never directed a play, which most, most artistic directors like that's their thing. And, and most of their companies are sort of defined by their directing imprint if you will. So I've always come at the job more as a producer from an acting background. So it, it took me a while to, to be cool with that in my own skin of, and Martha LaVey at Steppenwolf was a big influence on me because she, similarly, you know, wasn't a director, she was an actor in a, in a, in a producer and, and a mentor to me and in many, many ways.
3
00:33:42
But to, to your question, like w what's what's a day in the life, like, I guess I'll talk pre pandemic is day in the life now is just not. So what I, what I love about the job while why I do say that it's my dream job that I didn't know would be my dream job is that no two days are the same and no two hours in a day are the same. So, you know, it could be working on casting one minute and then I'm working on a fundraiser the next minute. And then I'm collaborating on some marketing thing or having to deal with some crappy HR problem or, you know, I'm, I'm out of my league on a daily basis in some form or fashion.
3
00:34:27
And that's, what's exciting because each day I'm like, wow, never been faced with this. All right. Got to figure it out. And then a week later I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, I figured that out. What's, what's, what's the next hurdle. So the things that were totally daunting 10 years ago now are like, oh, if only I can knock that out. So I love it because I'm just constantly learning.
1
00:34:53
Do you think that the, the longevity of the theater company has something to do with that ability? The way that it sounds like you solve problems? Like you're not, or I guess the question is how have you lasted so long? I mean, that's my first question. I know a lot of people are like 25, usually it's one year. And so what w why, why have you lasted so long as a company and why have you lasted so long as an artistic director? Do you think
3
00:35:21
Those are good questions? I, I think a couple of our secrets to endurance, if not success, for starters, we've always been a really collaborative body and from the outset, and this is something that, that Nick laid out on April 9th, 1997, he was like, let's, let's do something different from the norm in Chicago, which is like creating ensemble based companies. And, you know, Steppenwolf is obviously sort of like the, the Uber model of that of let's have a group of artists and do plays that feature these, these artists, which is great.
3
00:36:03
And they've got some pretty great artists. Nick said, let's do something different. Let's create like an artistic board. If you will. Let's let's have our company members be a collaborative body to set the artistic course and let's have a mission be our, our roadmap. So what that means more specifically, still to this day, me as artistic director, I'm not choosing the plays. We produce it. It is a democratic process. There are 17 company members now, and it's my job to lead us in discussion and decision-making, but I promise you there've been countless projects that I'm super excited about that the others just aren't on board with you.
3
00:36:47
You're not going to see those on our stage. So having, having that system of checks and balances, and we don't pick plays just to feature each, each other. And sometimes that's really hard and painful, but you know, we don't get in a room and say like, all right, here's a project for you. And here's a project for you. We say, you know, what are the stories we want to tell? How are we looking? I love that. That's, that's
1
00:37:11
It that's the special sauce. Cause I feel like the reason as bad as the saying like that most theater companies go fold quickly is because it's all these vanity projects that people are like, well, now I finally have my thing. I can, but that doesn't mean other people are going to want them watch it.
3
00:37:27
And I love it. You call it a vanity project. Cause cause pre starting timeline, Nick and I actually produced a vanity project in, in 1996. So a year after he got out of school, he and I just wanted to work together again. So we like self produced a play play called the subject was roses that had no reason to be done other than I wanted to play this part. And Nick wanted to direct and guess what? Nobody came and nobody cared. And so yeah, we, we learned like, okay, this didn't really have a purpose other than we think, we think the world needs to see her.
3
00:38:06
Right. Yeah. And I it's so tempting
1
00:38:08
To do that. It's so tempting to do that because I feel like in this, in this industry that people are told you can't do this, I'm going to choose what you do. So then when you have the chance, you're like, no, no, no. Now I'm going to show them the problem with that is it doesn't like, like, and Gina's is always talking about this is when you don't invite other people into the process. It becomes such an insular thing. And nobody really cares except the two people involved it's it's,
3
00:38:35
It's absolutely true. And, and that idea is ultimately what made me relent and say, say yes to, to Nick in 1997. So, so yeah, so we, we had our first meeting. I was supposed to schedule the second meeting. I didn't a couple of weeks went by Nick and I went to see a show together. And we were sitting at Moody's pub in, in Edgewater and, and he finally said, Hey, you ever going to schedule that meeting? And I was like, okay, here it comes to the breakup conversation. And I said, you know, I, I just don't think this is for me. I I'm so inspired by your vision, but I, I just don't, I don't see it.
3
00:39:19
And he, he just convinced me that night. And, and, and he was talking in these big lofty terms that I can't believe my 24 year old self cared about. But, you know, he said most artists by nature, you know, since we're guns for hire, have to think just about our own solo career. He said, what if we built a company and, and it became our legacy and, and making something that out lived us, became the thing that really drove us and became our, our, our, our purpose.
3
00:40:02
And I don't know why that sounded appealing, but it did. And I thought, okay, I can get on board with that. And I think it sounded appealing because I was already feeling frustrated in the life of an actor in, you know, I am waiting for someone to call me and I, I'm the type of person and Gina, maybe, maybe you saw this in me before I did. I, I'm the type of person who just needs to get up every day and have some goals and have a to-do list. And I'm, I'm truly flattered that you sensed that about me. Well, before I did, and the life of the actor is, you know, yes, there are things you can be doing every day to advance your career and hone your skills.
3
00:40:47
But at the end of the day, if your phone rings, you, you have, you have the ability to exercise that if the phone doesn't, you don't. And so I thought I want to be more in control of what I'm doing.
1
00:41:02
Well, it also sounds, you know, the life of an actor or a solo, whatever is so lonely. And it sounds like what you guys created was a real community. And, and that is appealing because we all want community. And this idea of leaving a legacy that has nothing to that is a community legacy versus a one-person stardom legacy is like a different thing. It feels to me from the outside, looking in, it just seems like comforting and being a solo actor is so lonely and waiting. And this was like, you had a family, that's the word? It's like a family. Yeah,
3
00:41:43
No, that's, that's a beautiful way to put it. And I mean, especially this past year where we are all are feeling so isolated and so like, okay, I'll shuffle down the hall at home, again, check my email. But, but I feel fortunate that I I've had plenty to do this past year of like, okay, how do we keep this organization alive? How do, how do we live to fight another day post pandemic? When so many of my friends who, who are just freelance artists, haven't known what their daily to do is, and it's just heartbreaking because the depth of talent and skill that doesn't have an outlet, you know, many people have, have hustled and created new outlets for themselves.
3
00:42:37
But, but I feel fortunate. I mean, believe me, there were days that I wish there was less on, on our plate to survive a pandemic, but I feel fortunate that I've had stuff to keep pushing.
1
00:42:53
So I know that there's at least a couple of books out there about, you know, starting a theater company, how to start a theater company. But I just had this vision that you're going to write a book about starting a theater company and, and using as the premise of the book, because it's been the premise of, of your company to think almost exclusively, at least at the beginning about the message or the intention of what you're trying to do, because that is the thing that's universal and that's the thing that's sustainable. And long-lasting, and the thing that's not sustainable that we all get caught up in is the thing that you just mentioned. Like everybody has to see my, everybody is going to be so amazed by my talent.
1
00:43:36
Okay. But so then the other thing that I'm thinking of is how, in addition to the pandemic, the entire theater world changed in this last year. So we see you white American theater movement, and you don't have to answer this question or we can cut it out later if you don't like it like it. But what is, I mean, how are you responding to that? How, how has the theater company responding to that side of things?
3
00:44:01
No, it's a great question. And you shouldn't cut it out cause I, I should have to answer that and I should be able to, to answer that it's, it's a complicated question, but you know, when we talk about 24 years of this company, I, we will be the first to admit that at least the first half of that existence, we were way too homogenous and, and insular. And you can see that in, in just the makeup of that group of company members and the makeup of staff, once we actually had staff and you can see it in the body of work, you know, it's a lot of white dude plays and we have been a work in progress.
3
00:44:46
I would say the, the latter half of our 24 years and making more progress in the past five to eight years in expanding those voices and welcoming more voices into that decision-making group of, of company members. And, you know, it's, like I said, it's 17 people now and with the variety of ages and points of view and races, we still got plenty of way to go. And similarly, the work on our stage is where it, where it has, has to start.
3
00:45:27
Like, you're, you're diluting yourself if you think, oh yeah, we can have a diverse board and a diverse audience. If, if the art that you're making, isn't speaking to and from a variety of, of voices, like why do you think that a variety of voices are going to show up to see it? So, so starting with the, with the art has been, you know, more, a more urgent focus for us in, in the past five years. But, but it's also about, and, and I, I think long and hard about this, my role as a leader of this organization, I don't say the leader because we're just not set up that way, but I, I think long and hard about, you know, how do I make space for other leaders and how do I, how do I give the next 24 year old who doesn't know that they're ready to be an artistic director, a platform to find their own leadership voice.
3
00:46:38
So that, to say that that has weighed on me a lot. This past year is, is a Supreme understatement at the same time, like I'm 47 years old. I still got some tread on the tires. I still got some stuff that I want to, to achieve. And I want to get this baby timeline, you know, to a place that I, I know it, it will sustain itself, you know, beyond my involvement.
1
00:47:09
Oh, I I'm just, so it's just a theme that's been coming up in my life, which is long game. Let's look at the favorite word. Okay. We're in the, we're in this together. Cause I it's my new favorite word. And it's like, what's the long game here because I feel like Ann and Gina and I were talking this morning about the instantaneous ness of internet. And, and, but I have to keep coming back to what's the long game. And it sounds like the other thing that makes timeline really work is the long game. Like you, you have a long game kind of a mission situation versus a short term. And I know you, everyone needs short-term goals, but I'm just impressed with the, with the long game kind of focus that you have.
1
00:47:55
And I'm wondering, like, I just am wondering where that comes from. Do you, as a kid, were you like, I'm looking at the long game or like it's probably, maybe it's maybe it's being with these people for so long and it evolves and change, right? Yeah.
3
00:48:10
I, God, I love that observation. And I truly do. I use the phrase long game all the time and I think that has been our Mo I don't, I honestly don't know where it came from. And, and Gina, to your point, I didn't read any of those books on how to start or run a theater company, which is the other crazy thing. And, you know, we all know we didn't have a single class in four years. That was like, here's how you budget. Here's how you fundraise. Here's how you market, here's how you produce. Here's what HR looks like. You know, like I didn't train a day in my life for what dominates my job at the same time.
3
00:48:51
Yeah. I trained every day of my life to, to be a theater artist and have taste and sensibility and, and just know what the theater world is like, but it's been a lot of learning on the fly, a lot of trial and error, but I would say the other secret sauce that we have had is that we've always been really honest with each other about what we're doing well and where we have to do better. And this comes back to a lot of discussions in the past year with we see you and et cetera, is like, okay, it's why I said like, no, don't cut this out.
3
00:49:34
Like I need to talk about where we're falling short and I need to be held accountable for that. And, and, and that was instilled early on and I don't take credit for it. And I don't know who should, who had the idea of, Hey, let's, let's operate like adults, but even our very first show that we did, we had a six hour post-mortem after closing the bad show where we're like, we are going to analyze every mother fucking detail of like, okay, now let's criticize the postcard and let's criticize the, the dip we served at opening night. And, and while now, thankfully, our postmortems are a little bit more expedient than six hours.
3
00:50:20
What it did is it just established a culture where we're like, okay, we're not going to pretend that we fucked this up. And, and that may hurt someone's feelings to say it out loud. We're not going to say it out loud because we're trying to point fingers or be malicious. We're just trying to be constructive and say like, we're going to fall in a lot of holes. Let's just not keep falling in the same hole. And the only way to not fall in the same hole is to say that was a whole, and, and we did a face plant there.
1
00:50:52
Yeah. Well, so I wish I had said this to Nick because I think I was thinking it when we were talking. So hopefully he'll listen to this, but
3
00:51:00
Well, I of course have a zoom with them in like an hour so I can tell them because I still can't shake that guy.
1
00:51:05
I mean, honestly, when I walked in to a Nick bowling production, it's like, I can't believe you did this to a classroom. I can't believe, I feel like I'm in the middle of the most opulent. Like he, he really has such vision. He really has. And I I'm, I'm thinking he, maybe after that conversation that he had with Lily really developed what his big picture. I mean, he's essentially his approach to creating this company is probably akin to his, his approach to filling a second floor classroom with four inches of water,
3
00:51:44
Putting naked people in it. I mean, the guy thinks the guy thinks
1
00:51:49
So, so let's get to the fun stuff about theater school, your, your experiences, your, your professors that you jelled with, ones that you didn't like, what, what w give us, give us some, some juicy.
3
00:52:03
So this is where I like list all the professors I slept with. And that's so, so, so did not happen. You know, I, I, I look back on my time at school with, with great fondness that said I was kind of an unremarkable student and I, I don't, I don't, I don't say that to, to like, be a martyr at all. Like, they kind of didn't know what to do with me, and I don't fault them for that. Like, I was just coming into my own and I think what I listened to Nick's podcast, I think there was some joking about that, of like, oh yeah, I was, I was like a boy trying to find so, so I, you know, I, I was like the king of the crappy workshop.
3
00:52:58
It was some really just questionable productions in, in, in, in classrooms. But there were some, some teachers who, who made just a lasting imprint, you know, bill brown is now one of my dearest friends and collaborators and, and like get to hire him at, at our theater. And he's an associate artist of our theater. And, and yet when he was my teacher know, I just revered him. So, you know, people like bill and David
3
00:53:49
And, and you guys have explored, you know, often some of those challenging relationships shall we say, but, but what was great about the theater school is it was kind of like a buffet and you could take what you wanted and leave behind what wasn't speaking to you. And in a course of a day, you know, you could have five different, different teachers with very different styles. And, and maybe three of those, you're like, okay, that's just not speaking to me, but, but then you, you find some of the things that, that do speak to you and you hold onto them.
1
00:54:30
What did you love about bill? Like, what are the things that, what drew you to the teachers that you loved? So what were the qualities?
3
00:54:37
Yeah, I mean, with, with, with bill, some of it also came to the back that I had seen him on stage while I was at school. And again, I don't know what pushed me to do this, but during my four years at school, I was going out and seeing a ton of theater, I would say, like, half of my education was seeing Chicago theater and my good pal, Kevin Fox was kind of the driver of that. He was, you know, the hustler and bargain hunter. And he'd be like, Hey, we're going to usher tonight at, at Steppenwolf. And then I, you know, I, I got as comps to a preview at this theater and this year. So I was going out, seeing a lot in that, that was informing what I wanted to do.
3
00:55:22
And so bill was someone that like I was seeing in shows around town. So then when I actually got to be in a classroom with him, and he was kind of the first one to bridge academia with professional life, because he was doing it, you know, we'd sit in his classroom at 11:00 AM talking to him, and then he'd be on stage at court, you know, that night. So that was just eye opening too. He was like, what are the only people doing that? Got it. Yeah. I mean, this school is very, very rare, different now, very different.
3
00:56:01
But, but he, he was, he was the only one doing that. So that, that was kind of eyeopening and, and inspiring of like, oh, I want, I want your life. So even
1
00:56:15
That was kind of ambitious because like, you're going to usher and at the, at Steppenwolf and see, see at the court, like while I was pulling bongs, like gusting apartment living room and I, which is not to say that I, I needed to do that for my, you know, for, for different reasons. I, everything is everything and I wouldn't change anything, but at the same time, like, so there's so many parts of my life where I look back and I think I wish I had just grabbed the bull by the horns a little bit more. I wish I had had kind of like, because it really honestly to make your living in a theater, you have to wake up at, like you say, I wake up every day with a list of things to do wake up every day, prepared to take the world by storm, because it is so much effort for really, I mean, we say it jokingly, but really like people who work in theater, even on Broadway, they don't make enough money like really, to, to live on.
1
00:57:14
So you, so if you're going to do it, you've got to have a very like structured approach to it, which
3
00:57:20
Well it's thank you. But it, it's, it's my number one piece of advice that I give to students. Now, when, you know, I have the privilege of getting to come in and talk to, to acting students. Now, I say, don't squander these four years. Like you are sitting in a gold mine of theater, and I know how all consuming the school can be and how overwhelming the schedule is. And it's, it's, it's, it's brutal. It's a, but when you do have that rare night off, if you're not going out to see something, you're, you're, you're going to just set yourself back once, once it's time that you're out of school, because once then you're out there auditioning, I promise you the other 10 people who all look like you sitting in the waiting room to audition, they've seen five productions that director has done.
3
00:58:17
They've they've seen a bunch of shows that that theater has done. They, they have a sense of, of maybe what the, the aesthetic is of that show. And, or the flip side of that is you may go see a lot of work at some theater or the work of a director and say, I don't want to work there. I don't want to work with that person that their work doesn't speak to me, or I find it bad, or, you know, off-putting. So you kinda gotta be in the driver's seat as an actor of, of knowing the landscape.
1
00:58:56
I did not. I knew the landscape of a Mickey's big mouth mountain malt liquor bottle. And then later on, I tried to catch up, but I that's fair. I, yeah, I have some regrets now about, and it was fine. I have regrets and yet I needed to do
3
00:59:14
And believe me, I wasn't like as nerdy as I'm coming across, I did plenty of really stupid shit, like any college student,
1
00:59:23
But I think it just speaks to, you know, that you get your crew, that you were, were hanging with. We're interested in expanding your brain about the theater arts in general. And it's no mistake that then you have a theater company that's lasted so long, I think. Yeah. And how did you, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, did you get warned and all that? Did you have the warning system going on when you were, was that a fear of yours learning
3
00:59:51
System? Yeah, I do. I do remember this a bit. Yes. I, I recall David ABV Kelly saying to me, I guess this is my second year. He was my first year acting teacher. And after he saw me in some intro in the second year, he said, you know, I, we didn't have questions about bringing you back, but after seeing that play, I then did have questions of like, do you really belong here? And it's like, wow, snap. And I think you guys heard in, in an expo say about, about Bella, that when I was in, in her class called technique, I got a C my first, first quarter and my report card came home.
3
01:00:39
My father called me and he said, what is technique? And why do you seem to not have any? And so I had to go, I had to go see Dr. Bella and you know, you'd go into her dark office and, and you stare at her. And then behind her head, she has all the pictures of incredibly famous people that, that she, she taught me, you know, it's just, it's like, you're going to be with the Godfather's wife. And, and she said like, you're just not progressing. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? And she's like, you're not progressing. She goes, you don't have to stand on your head, just act. And I was like, oh, that's a pretty good piece of advice, which I, I carry with me too to this day.
3
01:01:23
And wow. Yeah, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Just, just do your job. It's, it's become, it's become like vernacular with me and my wife and she's not part of the theater world at all, but you know, if we go see a play where there seems to be some overacting, shall we say, or poor acting, she she'll walk out and be like, there was a lot of standing on your head going on.
1
01:01:45
Oh my God. Well, you're really just making me remember and realize like, Chicago is really the theater place, like much more than New York, much more than any other place. And it's, and it stayed sort of steadfastly committed to some of those really like important. I mean, when I think of the things that drew me to theater to begin with, they innovation and they like very clear ensemble connection. Those are things that I feel like Chicago theater has really stayed with and why it's still so successful. So who are the timeline contemporaries, like who else has been besides the devil who else has been around for a couple of decades and is consistently producing good stuff?
1
01:02:36
Oh yeah,
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01:02:38
No, I know I say that because sadly, so many of our contemporaries have, have faded away or folded up or, or had to totally reinvent them themselves. We've, we've sort of joked that we feel like we're on a bit of an island of the, the slow death of the midsize theater. You know, there, we have a city that has these amazing mega institutions of Goodman and Steppenwolf in Chicago, Shakespeare, and, and, and other really notable, you know, mid-sized theaters like Cort and VG and, and, and Northlight, but in my now, dear God, 30 years of being in Chicago, I can count on a few fingers.
3
01:03:31
The theaters that have grown from like small to midsize, you know, look looking glass, did it, writer's theater, did it. And then it's hard to, you know, black ensemble theater did, but it's, it's, it's hard to come up with that list. So I, I feel like we're kind of on an island, like we're not that small scrappy storefront anymore, but we're sure as heck not the Goodman by, you know, by about $20 million a year. We're not bad. So it's, it's hard to look around and be like, oh yeah, we're on the same path and trajectory as, you know, one time, one time, it was like, oh yeah, next theater.
3
01:04:12
Okay. They're not around anymore and hypocrites. Okay. They're not around anymore. So that's, it's depressing.
1
01:04:20
Yeah. That is depressing. And where is the, where is the organization trying to go? I mean, you're, you said you're trying to pave the way at some point in the future for change in leadership to turn, turn things over, but yeah.
3
01:04:33
Yeah. Well, the thing that dominates most of my life these days is we're in the process of designing a new home for timeline and, and, and trying to raise $35 million to build a new home for timeline in, in uptown, at, at Broadway and Argyle. So most of the pandemic when we're not producing plays, you know, I'm on zoom with our, our architects designing a theater and trying to do fundraising, which is an amazing privilege even just to get, to spend time, time doing that. It's also a colossal challenge.
3
01:05:14
Cause you know, PS, there was capital campaign class, a theater school.
1
01:05:21
Yeah. I missed that with, with John Jenkins. Yeah. Well,
3
01:05:25
While Phyllis was teaching us how to do back rubs of each other, you know, it was like in here's how to do a capital campaign as you're rubbing, rubbing the lower back of your classmate. So, so yeah, so the, the, the big, the big nugget that, that we're, we're trying to achieve, and, and we've been working on this for many, many years, is to get this, this new home open and, and ensure that that the foundation is laid for, for timeline for, you know, years to come, how do
1
01:06:00
You raise $35 million? I mean, I know you, you, you, you go through the process that you've identified people who are stalwart supporters of you. You figure out who, who has deep pockets, but you have to also get like other organizational support, foundational support, right? So it's lot, lots of grant writing.
3
01:06:16
This is where my favorite phrase, the long game comes back into play. And you short answer and I, I, I'm not trying to be flip is you don't do it overnight. Like you build relationships over 10, 20, 24 years. And, and you have people who, who believe in the organization, not because you had one great pitch meeting, but because they've known you for 15 years and they're like, Hey, I've seen 50 of your shows. And, and I've seen that when I've contributed in the past, you've put that to good use.
3
01:06:56
So it's, it is all, all long game. Hmm. Which is really frustrating when you're an impatient person. Like I am and want to see results.
1
01:07:11
I feel like we haven't talked very much about the ways in which you survived your experience at the theater school. I I'm gleaning that. One of the ways was that you had great friends, you had good relationships with people, but what else
3
01:07:28
The relationships were were were kind of key, you know, friendships. I, I, I made there, I mentioned Kevin Fox and Seiler Thomas and Amy Farrell and Leonard Roberts and, and Nick bowling and, and Juliette Hart. Like those, those are, those are friends for, for life. And that's what, that's what kept me going. And, and even though I was, you know, kind of on misfit island in, in school without really finding my place, I, I did feel like, like I was growing. And so that, that is sort of what, what kept me going. But, you know, when I got to school, like, I didn't know what was going to happen.
3
01:08:11
You know, we were, we were the first class. So I graduated in 95. We were the first class. You might recall who to LA. Yeah. And so, so we were also the first class who didn't go to New York, you know, prior to us, they would do a showcase in New York. And with us, they're like no more in New York. And I was like, oh, that sucks. And they're like, we're going to LA. And Los Angeles had less than no interest in me. And, and the feeling was, you know, kind of mutual. I didn't have any thoughts of going out there, but, but it's also a little, a little disappointing when you're like, great. I'm introducing myself to LA and there's not a single human who wants to meet me.
3
01:08:53
So that's like, oh, that's a little,
0
01:08:58
You have to tell the prices. Right. Story.
3
01:09:03
My, my only memory of going to Los Angeles to, to launch my acting career had nothing to do with acting, but because no one had any interest in me in Los Angeles whatsoever. I, I had a few days of free time out there because no one wanted to have a meeting. So someone, I don't know who the ringleader was, but someone was like, Hey, we're all going to go to the braces. Right. So there was, I don't know, 12, 15 of us who went and I never, in my wildest dreams thought that I would get picked by the show to be on the show. But lo and behold, and, you know, come on down, you know, and, and you have to like, go through this just very, very quick.
3
01:09:51
I can't even call it an interview, but sort of like this cattle call is you're walking in and the producers are like, what's your name? Where are you from? And, and I was like the 10th in line, behind many of my classmates. So everybody was like, I'm, so-and-so, I'm from Chicago. So by the time they got to me, I was like, yup, I'm another one of them. And, and I didn't think that they looked twice at me, but the show started. And I was like one of the first names called. And because you have to use your, your legal name, it was Patrick Powers come on to, and nobody calls me, Patrick. I mean, people who have known me my whole life, who's Patrick. So I went and I got on stage and, and then it's time to spin the big wheel.
3
01:10:40
And, and I got up there and I was like, ah, right. I've seen old ladies spin this. We're like, surely I can spend this. Well, I underestimated the weight of the woman it's heavy. Huh? It's heavy. Or I was also like a man child. So I spun the wheel and it was like barely moving. And I was like, oh my God, if it doesn't go around once, you know, then you get booed off the stage and you have to spin again. It went around exactly once and on a dollar, like exactly once. And so I'm going nuts and I've got like 12, 15 friends there.
3
01:11:20
So they're, they're going, nah, I mean, like we just took over CBS that, that day. So I'm going nuts. And I was like, yeah, baby. And then the next verse, it comes up and they spend a dollar and I was like, wait, what's the, and then the third person comes up and they spend a dollar. And my buddy Bob Barker was like, I believe this is the first time we've ever had this happen. So now we have to spin again. And I was like, oh, here's where my joy ride comes to an end, but I, I somehow won. So yes, I made it all the way to, to the showcase showdown at the end. And, and, you know, because at age 22, I didn't know how much, well the washing machine, I'm the Panama, I shit.
3
01:12:08
You not like two, $200, like $5 million a cruise on the Panama canal. But I had my, my moment in the sun and I cracked up Bob Barker on, on TV. And, and we'd, it was, it was a wild ride. So that was my, did you put that in your reel?
1
01:12:32
Did you put that in your real, please tell me you put that.
3
01:12:36
I just, I just found it on, on VHS cassette, but we'll put
1
01:12:42
That in your reel. I'm going to come to Chicago. Wait, hang on. The irony of it being called the showcase showdown. I mean, my first, my first free idea was the book you're going to write. And my second free idea is that you've got to write a play or a movie called the showcase showdown. And it's about the group of people going to LA finding less than zero interest in them and having just Bob Barker, what does it smell like? Does this smell dead? He smells really bad. Like the, the layers of
3
01:13:22
Makeup and work, like when, when you get up close, you're like, am I in a wax museum? Because I feel like I'm at Ripley's. Are you, are you at actually
1
01:13:37
I thought, you know, cause that hair, that cloth was always,
3
01:13:41
If you had, if you had on your bingo card, that I would dish dirt about Bob Barker,
0
01:13:48
You are the winner, ladies and gentlemen, please
1
01:13:52
Spay and neuter your pets and say thank you to PJ powers for a lovely interview. Thank you so much.
0
01:14:11
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five-star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I Survived. Theatre School is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina
Intro: Salad bars, Sizzler, vaccine aftermath, resentful giving,
Let Me Run This By You: Mentorship, boundaries
Interview: We talk to Ryan Kitley about teaching theatre, coming to the work with a beginner's mind, and manifesting going "offer only".
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina Pulice. We
1
00:00:11
Went to theatre school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand
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00:00:15
It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of
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00:00:20
It all. We survived theater school and you will too, are we famous yet?
2
00:00:28
Probably. And very low profit margin on salads, but there used to be so many restaurants where it was that it was just like one enormous salad bar with everything you could possibly want and your sound and like really good little corn muffins.
0
00:00:44
You know, you know, I remember in the Midwest it was different because nobody eats salad really in the Midwest. I mean, when I was growing up, we didn't, and then there was a Sizzler salad bar and that mostly had like cheese Bleu, cheese, cheddar, cheese, and bacon and eggs, bacon bits crew times that was your salad and iceberg lettuce and some ice iceberg. If you're lucky and shredded carrots, like that was your salad. And I was just thinking of Sizzler. I actually really liked to Sizzler and go with my grandma and my great aunt and my freaking great aunt, Ruth, my grandma's sister would put popcorn shrimp in a napkin in her purse because it was all you can eat.
0
00:01:28
And she would take that shit home in a napkin, not even a Tupperware, not a napkin. She'd wrap all the popcorn shrimp in her bag. Oh my God. Bless her. That's awesome. And how you do it over there?
2
00:01:41
Well, I woke up in a fantastic mood. It's a beautiful sunny day. I think really that I, this is going to sound crazy, but I really think after my first vaccine, I think I was tired for one month because then I got my second one last week and I felt bad just for one day. And after that, I feel better than I have and like a month, I don't know what to make of that, but
0
00:02:07
I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I think that doesn't shock me. Like, I think you were probably fighting it off some form of the virus for
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00:02:16
A month. Yeah, I think I was. And today's my mom's birthday, so yes, yes. Very cool. I'll I'll call her when we're done here. And yeah, so it was, everyone was coming up roses and then I got an email and, you know, I saw the email come through it and I thought I'm in a good mood. I don't want to read this email because I have a feeling it's going to take me off, but I'm trying to be better about responding to people in a timely fashion, because this is not a strength of mine. I mean, I'm the type of person I either get back to you the second I get your thing or like, it takes me six years. Okay. So I decided to be, I'll feel even better if I feel like I've just handled this.
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00:03:00
And then of course I opened just this like Pandora's box of shit and Twinkies. It was terrible. And you know, that aside here's, here's where I'm at and my life. I'm trying to look at these S I'm, I'm trying to stop looking at these experiences and such a, like a micro fashion and think about like how this person is hurting my feelings or how their wrong and I'm right away. And instead I want to make it like a growing a learning moment, a teaching moment for myself about like what my tendencies are and why am I getting angry and resentful and keeping myself in check about like how I do things, which is good. And I mean,
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00:03:40
That's the only way to stay sane. I think, I think
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00:03:43
The only way to stay, stay. And so, and, and, and, you know, not that I never realized this before, but it's really hitting home. Like if you have clearly defined values and every decision you make is, is guided by that. I mean, not to say it's always so conscious. Mostly it's probably unconscious, but when there's a conflict or something like that, and somebody is questioning something that you did, if you check in with yourself and you say, wait, if I were in that person's shoes, like on the other side of this power dynamic, I think I would be fine with what I'm doing. I still think what I did is fine, but what happens?
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00:04:24
The, the flip side of people pleasing is resentment. Totally because this per hangar support, okay, take one too. And because this person who's giving me a hard time, what they don't know is that I'm, I've poisoned them. And that I, that I anonymously provided financial support to them. Oh, okay. So here's the thing that, that, so that's an example of, of people-pleasing and resentment. I, I, it's not like I loved this person, but I knew that this person needed a little help.
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00:05:09
And I found a way that I could do it anonymously that wasn't gonna be, make them feel ashamed. And so I did it. And, and now when I'm getting a hard time, my impulse is to say, I, after what I did after what I've done for you, and that's the phrase after what I've done for you, the miniature here that coming out of your mouth, no, you're doing something wrong.
0
00:05:35
Yes. I was just going to say, this is the epitome of how I, I spent probably most of my time until recently is saying like, I, my version of that is very similar to like I did so good. I tried so hard and you screwed me over. And mind borders goes then into feeling sorry for myself and resentful. But instead of it turns to like, I, this always happens to me. I always try and look what happened. So anyway, continue. So absolutely
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00:06:09
Everything you just said. I totally relate to, those are also things that I have said to myself and it's no good. It poisons the well of my own good vibes. And, and, you know, I've said many times in here, I don't think the answer is to only have good vibes, but I also don't think the only answer is to, you know, be a swishing about like a plastic bag and the wind based on who, how if somebody is accepting or rejecting you at any given moment. So yeah. So I'm guess you do. So I wrote a response this has to do with this organization that I'm a part of. And I wrote a re I wrote, I drafted something that I sent to the other, my cohort, you know, the other leaders and the group to, you know, to get feedback about S w which is good, because I didn't just send it so smart, which is what I wanted to do.
2
00:07:06
Yeah. And, and the thing about, yeah, so I showed, this is what, this is all it is. I'm just meditating about my desire. And also it's all very selfish of me. Like my desire to please people is for them to approve of me. Cause I crave their approval. It's not really about the other person, what I like to get to as a place when I do kind things for people, it's either, because that's my value to be kind, or it gives me joy to, you know, but never because I like want to have something over them.
2
00:07:46
I think that's how I've always viewed. My kindnesses is like th the sort of like quid pro quo, I did this for you. So therefore, like, you shouldn't have any problem with me, you know, it's silly. It's when, when I say it out loud, it's completely antithetical to it. No,
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00:08:00
But I get it. I get it. It is so complicated to even pause anywhere in there and say, okay, what, and it all coming, what am I really doing here? And it, for me, it all comes down to a lot of times, my, I hate that. I hate it, but it comes down to my inner child. Like not needing something that I'm not giving her. I mean that, it comes from me. It's an inside job. It's not about the other person. And I hate that because it doesn't feel like that. And the moment in the moment, it feels like it's about the idiot. Other person it's about them. But then if I pause, I'm like, oh, it's not,
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00:08:43
It's almost never about them. It's almost always about like what they, and by the way, the same thing is true for the other party. Like, I can, I can have this interaction with this person with that knowledge, that they're, they can't be this upset at the thing that I did. And this has to be a projection for them about a bunch of other things. And, and, and okay. And that's yet another realization, because one of my evolution's and this had got me to the point where I felt like I needed to go around telling everybody what their problems, you know, like, let me give you a little advice when you do this, blah, blah, blah, which is also not healthy and productive and helpful people. Don't usually take that very well.
2
00:09:24
And unsolicited advice. So it's like, no, my only job is right here. My only job is to check in with my values to make sure that what I'm doing reflects that to treat the other person, no matter what they're doing to me with kindness and keep it moving. Yeah.
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00:09:42
And I think, I think someone once said something super helpful to me, which blew my mind, which you, I mean, many people probably already got this like day five of kindergarten, but it was, it was, she was like, you have no control over the other person, but here's the flip side. They don't actually have control over you either. And I was like, what, what are you talking about? And she was like, it's a two way street, which is what you just said, which is not only do I have to look at, okay, this is this, what I'm doing this strong feeling is about an inside job something's going on with me. But then their email, like you said, is also not really about you.
0
00:10:25
It isn't, it isn't, but that there is so much operating that I don't understand. That has nothing to do with me, nothing, zero zilch.
2
00:10:34
And this is why fight club is such a brilliant movie, because at the end of the day, that's all we are always doing. It's just finding ourselves. And we, we will so believe that it's, if all of these other people would just stop, you know, doing what they're doing, that I could be happy. It's like, no, even if they stopped doing everything they're doing, you would still feel this way. If you haven't done the work on yourself.
0
00:10:56
And that brings us back to what we were talking about last time, which was about did, you know, dissociative identity disorder and, and the parts of us that fight. And then we can't the only way through is bringing them all to the table and saying, okay, parts, what is going on? What can we do here to, to come to some kind of agreement or at least sort out who's wanting what here, because there's a part of me that wants to revenge. There's a part of me that wants to be the victim. There's a part of me that wants to lash out and hurt, hurt, hurt. And yeah, it's, there's so many parts. There's so many parts, even if you don't have did, like you were saying, we all have that stuff, but I think it's all we can do is what you're doing, which is not respond right away.
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00:11:43
Check it out with somebody else who, who I trust S and not, not react from a place of, of like primal smallest.
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00:11:54
Yeah. That's exactly it. And I have to say, when I have these experiences with people who are much older than me, it makes me sad because, you know, I, I sometimes feel like I'm late to understanding all of this, even though people do say, oh, lots of people go their whole lives without ever. And I, and I know plenty of people like that. I still, I think before I was this age, I think I thought that everybody who was this age or older, you know, just had all of this wisdom and, and, and some people that's true, but I really know, and communicate with a lot of elderly people who are far from having, I mean, it's actually, honestly, not only is it not evolved communication, it, it feels like I'm stepping back to oh yes.
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00:12:48
To a much younger version of myself and, and other people, like the way that people in this one context interact with me is exactly the way I felt about how people interacted with me and in high school. And, and, and also the first time that I was president of an organization, which was in grad school, I had the same exact experience. I just really thought that mostly people, when they got to a certain age, they were, you know, just, they were over all of that. So it does make me kind of sad. Like, oh God, this is your life. Right. You just live in these reactions to other people and you just, th they are the plastic bags floating
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00:13:29
Around. Right. Right. And that's, that's what my, my psychiatrist said, don't be a mobile home. Right. He, he drew me a picture of a mobile home and it put a cross through it. And it's a really, I have it framed on my desk and it's, he's just a, don't be a mobile home. And I was like, what are you talking about? Dr. Altman? He was like, don't mobile homes get blown by the winds. Any which way the wind blows. And you can't live inside a mobile home without getting blown away. You need some kind of, you know, and I was like, oh my God, but it's true. We can't, it's a terrible life to just be blown this way and that way by, and I know, cause I lived this way a long time by other people's stuff, my own stuff, outside forces stuff.
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00:14:13
It's just too much. It's too much wind. You can't
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00:14:15
Do it short, get yourself a foundation or a tornado cellar, get yourself on solid ground.
0
00:14:30
Let Me Run This By. I have a writing mentor. I've never had a teacher or a mentor who I actually really like. And also who scares me, but is it mean, so my mentor Dawn and I'm her, it's not as though she's, you know, it's and it's, it's a business relationship, but she is, I yesterday I turned it into a bunch of work a couple of days ago. And I had a meeting with her yesterday and I was like, dreading it. I was like, oh, because I've had bad mentorship in the past. Not all their fault, either my fault too, but I just have had been involved in bad relationships that way.
0
00:15:16
She's not, she gave me hard feedback, but it was in this really nice, loving way, which not everybody can do. And it's a skill. She is. She gave me some great feedback about my pilot and we're proceeding. And it just was a really corrective experience because if you've listened to this podcast, you know, I have a real hard time with feedback or have I take it very personally, that part is underdeveloped at me and I'm trying to develop it, but she is able, she's not necessarily nice. It's more that she's kind underneath. It's not, it's not kit what kit, gloves, kid gloves, whatever it is, it's she trusts that I'll be able to take the feedback, but she also has really good ideas.
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00:16:00
So it's not just like, you need to fix this. This sucks, this sucks. She's like, what about, she's very curious about the scripts that she's at least in my experience that she's mentoring. And I know it's not just mine because I was in a group mentoring situation with her and everyone's script. She's like, I'm wondering, oh, it's such a pleasure to do business with someone like
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00:16:20
That. So that tells you that the whole reason you were ever in that program
0
00:16:26
Was to meet her, was to me.
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00:16:28
And that was the thing that you felt was lacking when you were actually in the program was just good mentorship.
0
00:16:33
Exactly. So now I have that and it's well worth the money and paying her like it is. And we'll see what happens, but I feel strongly about this pilot. It's gotten crazy and it's, I changed the title and I changed it back. And the title was me and it was hold my calls, which is a plan, hold my balls and home. And then I was like that. I want it to be called me three. And then now it's holding my calls again. It's perfect. It's great. Because she's like, she challenges me. She's like, I want to know what this means, because me three, I tells me nothing. And I was like, you're right. It's just a plan. Me too. And so she's just making it clear. She's just anyways.
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00:17:14
So I'm I'm yesterday. It was a very sort of unproductive weird day. And then I had this call with her and I felt like it reinvigorated me. So we all need mentors is my thing.
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00:17:25
If you can be a mentor and if you need get a mentor. Yeah. So
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00:17:31
Like in your, I was gonna ask you and your organizations that you're all a part of are there, like, cause we've talked a lot about sort of older generations being kind of hard. Is there anyone that's older because, well, I guess dad's not really older, but anyone in your organizations that his mentor mentoring the younger,
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00:17:57
Honestly it does feel like it's the reverse. It feels like it's the reverse because
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00:18:07
You're just kind of bringing them, you're trying to bring without talking shit about them. We're trying to bring people along. We're trying to, yeah. Yeah. I
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00:18:16
Like you until, until you have had Dawn. I, my mother is a mentor of mine. Sometimes my husband is a mentor of mine. Other than that, Donna, Nicole was a mentor of mine, but I, I haven't had anybody like really sort of take an interest in my career and kind of shepherd me very far in any given direction. So now that you're talking about this, maybe I'm going to be more on the lookout. Maybe I'm going to purposely intentionally invite mentorship. Well,
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00:18:53
What, yeah, what I'm noticing is all our guests, the ones that really sort of made the most out of their theater school experience had mentorship, you know, like ha I'm glad you had Don. I don't, I don't think,
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00:19:08
I mean, it does really seem from the people that we talk to. Yeah. Like a lot of the people who have S two struggled then and continue to struggle, didn't really have enough strong sort of figures leading them along the way. Yeah. And it's, it's a problem. So the thing I want to run by you is It's about boundaries. I believe that the tenants of codependency are so widespread that most people, if not that they're codependent, most people that I encounter in life have values that I feel are rooted in codependency.
2
00:20:02
Like if you really love somebody, you'll stick with them. No matter what, or if you really care for somebody, if you're a kind person then, I mean, not the people think about it this way, but what it ends up being, as people can walk all over you sure. And then the converse of that, or the corollary to that is when you put up boundaries, people say you're cold.
0
00:20:31
Yes. It's true. And people say,
2
00:20:33
You're a bitch. And people say you're difficult, difficult. Yeah. And honestly like the dial has not moved on this topic to my knowledge. I mean, not in my lifetime. I don't feel that the dial moved on this. I feel we are no closer as a society to embracing healthy boundaries. Then we, you know, I just, the number of times in my life, I encounter somebody who, who takes me the wrong way. Who takes me? Who takes my boundaries as a, an admonition or some, like I'm saying, you're doing something wrong instead of no, I'm just holding a boundary. I don't know how it gets to the point where I'm like, I feel like I explain this all the time.
2
00:21:16
I don't know how else
0
00:21:18
You can't. You know, I think it's a double bind, right? Because you're saying there are people tell us don't be a doormat. Don't get walked all over, stand up for yourself. You take pride in yourself. Even this whole movement of good vibes only it's like own your power, own your shit. Be it be a bad-ass. But it doesn't in practice in practical terms. What that does is if you set up boundaries, right? People think you're being mean. People, people think that you're, especially if you're a woman, people think you're cold ice queen, all that shit. So it's a bind it's we get put into a bind and it's really unfair. And I think, I think it's my job to do the work when someone puts up boundaries to check in with myself, but nobody wants to do the work.
0
00:22:04
So everyone's just like, oh, she's cold. She's you know, and I think of female pop stars all the time. This happens too. Like if you look at pink or Katy Perry or lady Gaga, it's like, people think they're a bitch because they're trying to protect their cells and their empire. It's like, and they're what they've done. They get judged and it's not there. And we need to, I think we've got to stop doing it. Yeah. And
2
00:22:28
I, I can't, I'd be hard pressed to come up with an example of somebody who lives a life that I would want to emulate. That doesn't have good boundaries, you know, or it's not, you can't, it's not possible to be boundaryless a doormat and have accomplished your hopes and dreams and goals. It's just really not. And if I'm taking my own advice from the conversation we had earlier, I'd have to say, yeah, well, that doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. These are. I've already decided this is what my values are and nobody has to like it. But that doesn't mean that I have to stop having boundaries.
0
00:23:09
No. And in fact, if, if, if, if I feel like if I stop having boundaries so that people like me, I'm gonna die and miserable death of, of, of like a mobile home death of being blown around. And then I think boundaries and doing the work of inner work is the only way to freedom. Because I feel like if we are constantly living in this codependent way, there is no hope for our future. It's, it's miserable to try to, to try to live in a codependent, really like relationship, or even like, just have in business, you can't do business.
0
00:23:51
That way. Business gets really screwy. And also
2
00:23:57
Nobody seems to be able to correlate the fact that boundarylessness in, exists in the same realm as drink wine, to solve all your problems. You know, it's like, well, yeah, if you spend your life, you know, fostering resentments, doing things for people that you don't really want to do, then the only thing you can do at the end of the day is drink. Right.
0
00:24:20
And the correlation between that. And, and for me, I'll take it a step further and say physical health. So like, I think that all my fear and resentments and people pleasing stuff, it's not, it's not a coincidence that my heart is kind of wonky. Like I think that all contributes it all. And I'm not saying people deserve it. I'm not saying I deserve to feel to have a heart issue. But what I'm saying is it's all part of the process. It's me, I'm the, what's the common denominator. Me. What's the of thing. Me it's like that. So I just, I hear you. And I think that we we've come up. We we've not come a long way. The needle has not moved. And I think that there's still so much, especially for women, there are so many traps because we're being told, you know, to be brave and bold and speak our truth.
0
00:25:12
But at the same time, be nice and kind, and still,
2
00:25:16
Yeah. And just platitudes, honestly. And, and a lot of the platitudes are really contradictory. And I feel like people echo the sentiments, especially on social media because they sound good or, you know, but I, I don't find as many people who are really living the platitudes as are spouting them. And I, and I'm not suggesting that I am living the Platte. And so I'm just saying like, there seems to be a big valley between, you know what we say, we're about a lot of people, what we say we're about, and then what we're actually doing. It's the reason that so many people, I think have unfulfilled lives because they have this on the one hand, this idea of what their life could be like, but they don't really have any skill.
2
00:26:00
They don't have all the skills required necessarily to get there. So, and, and other myth society is, you know, it's just a matter of working hard. I mean, yes, working hard is a part of it, but if you're just working hard in not effectively, then you're just spinning your wheels and burning out.
0
00:26:18
Yeah. And it's dangerous. And, and I think, and I was talking to this other woman who said, who said like, yeah, we were told we have to love ourselves, love our parts. And I'm like, well, but I need a roadmap to get there. How I have no, like you said, I have no evidence. I have no frame of reference. I have no teaching models for this. So it's like, we need teaching models of how to not be codependent is why, you know, 12 step programs work and therapy because it's the only sort of roadmap I know of how to get out of the cycle of co-dependence, you know,
2
00:26:52
That's right. And, and it's cycle boy, it's a cycle of that. Have you twisted and turned and tossing around and like the plastic bag,
0
00:27:01
Like the plastic bag and the mobile home. And I'm not saying if you live in a mobile home, you've got troubles. What I'm saying is get some bricks and tie the, sit down, somebody right now
2
00:27:10
In a mobile home, looking out their window and a floating plastic bag being like, fuck you.
0
00:27:18
No, you're not just get a brick Brix and tie that shit down.
2
00:27:21
That's right. And you two deserve grounded. Well,
1
00:27:38
Today on the podcast, we're talking with Ryan, Kitley Ryan. Kitley got his MFA from the theater school at DePaul. And after just started acting on stages and big screen with small screens, I'm still located in Chicago, still acting all these years later. And teaching now at DePaul, he's hilarious. He's a father, he's a voiceover actor. So please enjoy our conversation with Ryan. Kitley
4
00:28:10
We, I make it up kind of, as I go, don't tell
2
00:28:13
All that. Don't you think that's exactly what all of our teachers said. I mean, how, I mean maybe voice and speech. They had like an agenda and we have to do this, this and this. I mean, because it wasn't that the only one, we were really using a book for freeing the natural voice.
4
00:28:33
Oh, wait, are we, is this? And we started
2
00:28:36
Basically, no, congratulations, Ryan Kitley survived theater school and we have already been talking. So we're, we're just going to continue our conversation about Kristin Linklater, freeing the natural voice. I think that was the only textbook, I mean, history of dramatic literature, but like in acting and stuff and any acting books, books on acting. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I don't think we really, it wasn't like we had a test or anything either.
4
00:29:11
I remember getting a lot of handouts, you know, like photocopies of certain sections.
2
00:29:18
Yeah. That's that's also and feeling our teachers just they're like, wow, let's see. I mean, the day that we had to do the it's the last day you're alive go, you know, that was the John Jenkins. Did, did you have that Ryan where you went? It was a spring day and we went into class and John Jenkins said, it's your last day on earth now? I knew even then that that's what he did that day. Cause it was a gorgeous day. He didn't want to be inside teaching. He knew we didn't want to be inside learning and bothered. I have joked that what we did with our last day, we just went back to my house and the most boring.
2
00:30:00
And I think we draw, we drew, we draw
0
00:30:04
Things and then that was it. Oh, what a waste of a last.
4
00:30:09
And I do remember, I didn't have John and I didn't get that assignment, but I remember I was like, oh, that's so cool. You know? Like, and then I'm like, well, I could do this every day of my life if I want it. But I'm like, that's such a cool assignment. I'm like, I wonder what those guys are doing. You know? It's their last day. Yeah. I never had, I mean, I know I knew John really well, but I never had his, I don't think I ever had. I took him. I took his class. I mean, you took movement to music. I took me, but I did that with Jim Dunn. Yeah, I did. I did a couple, maybe like one or two sessions with John, but we did movement to music primarily with Jim.
2
00:30:56
That would have been interesting. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall. I wonder if it was the S S I mean, cause John told us when we interviewed him that it was Jim who, who introduced this curriculum to the theater school. But for me, it's such a John Jenkins thing. And it's weird to imagine Jim teaching that class. I'm sure it was a version of the same.
4
00:31:19
And that was one of my favorite. I love that. And as, yeah, I did, I loved it. I, as weird as it was, you know, just, I remember doing it at like 10 or 11 at night in that little, little movement room and the corner and with Jim and we did it for like four or five hours at a time and yeah, yeah. A minute. Were you in the sanctions?
0
00:31:49
Were you taking mushrooms? What's going on here? Did you did it was that night.
4
00:31:54
Yeah, we did it at night, like three or four times,
2
00:31:59
At least. Where are you saying that? That's when the class was, or Jim was like, let's just do it in the morning. Let's just do it. And yeah,
4
00:32:10
Maybe I don't remember, but I know it because I remember it was, it was almost pitch-black and it was, it was at night. I think he got like, he got like late access to the, the school, you know, to the building or whatever. And I just remember it was re it was really cool. It was, I, it was one of the strangest things that I remember doing, but it was really, it was really fun. And I was like, I want to do it again. Five hours we tweaked. It was, it was like a night. It was like a
2
00:32:50
That's crazy. And it sounds great.
4
00:32:53
It may, I may have been like two or three hours, but yeah,
0
00:32:57
It was a while. That was, I don't know what the MFAs were doing. And you guys had like a whole, and we were like 9:00 AM movement to music, sweaty, sweaty,
4
00:33:09
Anything at 9:00 AM was not good for me. And that building, we used to do yoga at like eight in the morning and I had never done yoga in my life. And I was like, why are we doing this? And why aren't we doing it so early? And what does this have to do with acting, you know, the amount of things times. And I said that, I was like, what does this have to do with acting? And they're like, shut up and do your downward dog or whatever.
2
00:33:38
Now how many MFA I can cost a small, right? Like how many people were in your class? We
4
00:33:45
S we started with two sections. There was a section, it was 10 and 10. And we ended with one section of 10. Okay. That's how it's been played out was for the, for
2
00:34:03
The BFAs too. So what did you study? Did you study theater in undergrad too?
4
00:34:12
I, my first audition was for the theater school. I never, I never acted like I it's, I it's really kinda weird and crazy how I, I even got in. I don't know. I still don't know, but yeah, I never acted in high school or undergrad. After, after undergrad, I moved to Chicago and I started, I took a class at second city and I, I fell in love with it.
4
00:34:55
I was like, this is amazing. This is awesome. I love this. And I wanted more of it and I wanted, you know, and to learn. And someone was like, oh, well, why don't you try to get your MFA? I was like, great. What is that I had? And I just, I had no clue and undergrad communications, like, like radio and TV production, you know, like, I think I wanted to, to like be a DJ or work and some kind of TV production or something like that. But yeah, so it was,
0
00:35:33
So they said, they said, go get your, maybe an MFA. You were like, sure. And then like, how did you say like, okay, well, I guess I need to learn model out. Did you just fall into it? Or it's just so strange.
4
00:35:45
I bugged, I bugged the hell out of my improv teacher and, you know, he was like, look, go get a monologue, memorize it, work on it. And I was like, all right. Do you remember what you did? Right? I do. I did a monologue from a play called breaking up by Michael Christopher. And I had, I couldn't find the play and I'm not kidding you. Like, I, I was just clueless. I couldn't find the play. I looked up Michael and Christopher and he lived in New York.
4
00:36:28
He's and he's an actor he was on. Did you ever see Mr. Robot? Yeah. Yeah. He's like a, a main character and Mr. Robot anyway. So I tried calling him in New York and I mean, this was like before this was, this was in 95, so it wasn't like her 94. And anyway, I couldn't find a play, so I just kinda, I winged it. I don't, I don't know, but I, I never, I just asked so many people. I'm like, how do I do this? What do I do? You know, I was living with like my non-acting roommates and I would perform it for them and they'd just be like, oh yeah, that's great.
4
00:37:10
That's great. You know, they had no, like, we're all just like, so like, how did you memorize that? So I, I laugh about the, the audition because I walked in, it was the, the large movement room, John, I think John Jenkins was there. I know John Bridges was there, maybe Melissa Meltzer and Jim Mostel off. Right. And I, and I had no idea what to expect. I walk, I walk in and, you know, it's empty except for a chair in the middle of the room.
4
00:37:53
And I kind of looked at the chair. I'm like, I've never done this monologue sitting down. I'm thinking to myself, like, what do I do with this chair? So, I mean, I had to sit down and I didn't. Yeah. I just didn't know. And I mean, I was so nervous and, you know, just picture those four, especially Osstell hop, just sitting there, you know, staring at me. So I grabbed the chair to kind of move it. And Jim, from, you know, all the way at the other end of the room and he's just like put the chair up stage and I didn't know what that meant. Kidding you. I was like, I didn't, I was looking around and he's like, put the chair upstage.
4
00:38:39
And so I kinda like I've moved. I don't, I don't remember what I did, but he literally had to say up by the other wall, you know, so I was like, okay, great. And you know, and I mean, they must've just been like you guys, like, are you kidding me? You didn't know what upstage meant. I did the monologue. And then, you know, I remember us having some kind of interview meeting. They were just asking about my background and stuff. And they're probably just like cracking up, like, like I was wearing like red sweat pants. Cause they said to, they, they said to like, get, you know, like movement clothes.
4
00:39:20
And I like just grabbed whatever was in my, I mean, I was like, yeah, I was wearing like red sweatpants for this like serious, no boyfriend, girlfriend monologue, or what the hell I was doing. I was, I was like, oh, I probably won't be able to change their, you know, little do I know, like at theater school, people just walk around and just taking clothes off where it was like, and to me, I had no idea
2
00:39:50
And say, this is something that I feel sad for younger people about, because nothing, you can live a life where nothing is a mystery. Like you can live a life where you just Google, how do I audition for the theater school? And like, you're going to know exactly what to wear and exist and that's too bad. And you know, people don't get, people don't get to have any moments of just not knowing about something and not knowing how to do something. Because if we, if we had Jim here and if he remembered it, I bet he would say like, it was really charming stage and that, and in some ways like acting teachers, like when they don't have to undo a bunch of bad habits, like you were truly being taught for the first time, it makes their job easier.
2
00:40:38
I mean, talk about beginner's mind.
4
00:40:41
Well, I mean, I do think that I got in like, Gino, like you were saying, that's such a good point there. They're like, oh, we can teach this kid anything because he knows nothing. But yeah. I mean, it took me a long time to like, like figure out what I just asked everybody all the time. I'm like, what's this, how do you do that? How do you do this? It was definitely a humble, humbling experience, but I, I, you know, like you guys just like, I loved it. You know, I loved, I loved being there. I loved everything about it.
4
00:41:22
It was so different to me, you know, the whole experience. And it was really, it was so exciting and creative and scary. And
0
00:41:33
Was your mom like what? Cause you're from Jersey, right? Was your mom like, what are you doing? And
4
00:41:39
They, they, I think they're still asking me that no, I remember calling home and I was just like, you know, they knew that I was out here taking like improv classes and I was bartending or whatever. And, you know, they just thought there was just kind of like a fun thing that I was doing. And I remember calling home and I was like, you know, I'm going to kind of audition to get into this, this MFA program. And it was like the shortest conversation. Cause they didn't know. They was like, oh, okay. I got to go. And they didn't, they just didn't get it. They were like, what are you talking about? Not that they didn't understand what it was. They didn't understand why I was doing that.
4
00:42:22
And I was there like, you're totally on your own financially. They're like good luck, which I are, you know, that was kind of our, our understanding, like after college, you know, my parents were like, all right, well you want any more education that's on you. Right. And so, so I pick a three-year MFA program that costs a little bit of money. Well,
2
00:42:43
It costs a lot of money, but then again, you've been a working actor ever since you graduated, like you're, you're, you're an example of that. You're you, you should be on the brochure, right? Like you could come to the school leave, and this is what you do for the rest of your life. I mean, you you're actually, I would say that people who do that are in the minority of people who graduate from theater school. So it's a huge accomplishment that you just went right to work. Yeah.
4
00:43:09
Well, yeah. And there've been many dry spells, but, but
0
00:43:14
You've maintained. I mean, you've worked, you've worked consistently you're and, and Gina's right. We don't speak to a lot of people for a myriad of reasons. One of which is just said, it's hard as shit, but that have stayed in the business even, you know, anyway, so this is, this is a cool thing.
4
00:43:33
Yeah. Well I appreciate it. Yeah. I mean like all of us and I always want to be working more and I'm thinking, oh, when is it going to happen? But, but yeah. I mean, I, I I've done my best to keep it going. And, and it hasn't been pretty the entire way, but you know, I, when I'm working, I feel like I'm the best version of myself, but when I'm not working, it is it's, it's pretty, it's pretty tough and depressing, but
2
00:44:05
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that's probably universally true. And so you, so you arrived, so you get into the theater school and it's day one and you're doing imp like warmup exercises. And this is the thing that my mind always goes to. Cause that was the thing that was so shocking to me is like space work and blah, blah, blah. So what were you thinking
4
00:44:30
At audition or no,
2
00:44:32
When you start, when you started and you started the training, I mean, you didn't have any frame of reference for what it was.
4
00:44:39
Yeah. I was, I was constantly nervous and scared and I felt like I felt RHA and like naked all the time. Like everybody knows that I don't know what I'm doing. I was afraid to speak up. I was, I was just like, until I got friendly with our group and that happened pretty quickly cause we had a great group, they were so supportive and they all had so much experience. So, but yeah, I was, I was willing to try anything.
4
00:45:21
I remember Barry. He was in, he was in my class, Barry Brunetti, one of my favorite human beings. I love him. I remember him saying like he was, I don't know, working on some show or exercise or something and he's like, he's like, well Kitley will do it. He doesn't know any better, so he'll do anything. And I was like, is that a compliment? Or, but I remember him saying that like, ah, Kitley, we'll do it. And he doesn't know, you know, and I kind of had that approach like, all right. And I'll try this.
0
00:45:56
That is where you like that as a kid. Were you someone that would just try things? Cause I I'm the opposite of that. So w w w where did that come from that like, no,
4
00:46:06
I mean, you know, like in high school you're like, no, I was like, and that's probably why I didn't go into acting in high school. Cause I was like, oh no. And I don't want to be, you know, and the theater group or whatever, I was like trying to be too cool. And then that didn't work out very well, but I don't know. I think it was just being immersed in, in classes and, and, you know, being around everybody that, you know, we were just being in that environment. I was like, all right, great. I, I felt, I felt like I was, I was allowed to take those risks with no repercussions, at least in, in that environment.
2
00:46:52
And I forget now do the MFA start doing, cause you have a shorter time. Do you start doing plays right away or do you have to wait until your second? Yeah,
4
00:47:03
We did an intro, I think at the end of the first year. And you know, it was just, it was really like low key. And then, yeah, I think my first, my first play full player or workshop was the first quarter of the second year, if that makes sense. So it was, I love that it was raised in captivity, Nikki, Nikki silver, you were in it. We,
2
00:47:40
I love that play. I love it play so much. I love
4
00:47:42
That play and I'll always love it. It was, it was, that was the first full play because the intro we kind of did, like, I don't know, we did like a one act and then we switched roles and we did the second act. So the intro wasn't like a full play, but I did raise an, a captivity and I I'll never forget it. And Sean Gunn was in it with me. I was in it with him and he was, he was so good in that place. I'll never forget it. And he's such a great actor and such a cool guy, but I have a scene where I play a gay prostitute and I'm making out with Sean Gunn. I'm like rolling around on the floor.
4
00:48:23
And, but like one of the, I think it was probably, you know, one of the first shows where we had audience, I had my college buddies and an ex-girlfriend sitting in the first row, you know, first grade sitting in the, you know, in the classroom, in the room there. And they had no idea what to expect. I didn't tell them anything. I mean, they they'd never seen me act. They, you know, they're couple of the guys were like, you know, X jocks or whatever. And they're just like, what was that? They're like Kitley w what was the, okay. You know, they didn't know what to say after the show,
2
00:49:00
Putting this into perspective that it was essentially the first real play you ever did not counting the workshop. And you're playing this complete, this character completely outside of your own experience. Did you take to it immediately? Did you have any of those feelings that your friends were echoing back to you? Like what the fuck?
4
00:49:21
Yeah, I, I was, I was so scared and nervous. Oh yeah. I didn't know how I was going to do it, you know, not only, not only like kissing another guy heterosexual, and that was kind of odd to me, but just acting, I was like, wait, people are going to come in and watch this thing. You know, I remember Shawna Flanagan, I believe was the director. And she, she was fantastic. And I felt so taken care of, you know, but yeah, it was looking back. I'm like, why?
4
00:50:03
Like, I don't know. I love the experience, but I do remember how, how scared and nervous I was almost every show, you know? Wow.
2
00:50:15
What else did you do? What were some of your other shows?
4
00:50:20
I did. One of my favorites was a one fleece spare. Oh, that's right.
0
00:50:25
And what's Kristen and Dave
4
00:50:29
And Matt Carter and Barry Brunetti directed it. And I remember being so excited because we did that show off campus at the old victory garden space, the upstairs small, small space with the pole in the middle of it was a pole in the middle of the stage. And that was a, oh God, that was such a great experience.
0
00:50:57
Why did you love it so much? Why was it so great?
4
00:51:02
I loved the play and, and the cast was so much fun and I loved working in that space. And Barry Barry's like, I learned so much from Barry just being around him, you know, in class for three years. But also as, as a director, he taught me a lot. I worked with him on, on another show as well, but I, I loved working in that space that it was, it's like a 50 seat black box and, and everybody, you know, it's just like people were right there. It was. So I don't know, it sounds kind of cheesy, but it was so like alive, you know, it was, it was, I remember some of the, some of the blocking, like I remember Dave kind of walking through the audience a little bit and I was like, oh, this is so cool.
4
00:51:52
You know, it's not like here's this stage and here's the audience. And we're going to put on a play. It was like the whole theater was, was involved. It was, it was really cool. And it was a lot of work that, and it was like, we had dialects
0
00:52:09
That tire lick was crazy too. It was, it was not a regular standard British situation.
3
00:52:15
I think it was like
4
00:52:17
Some kind of weird Cockney. I had to learn how to tie all these weird Knotts and stuff. And I remember Barry Barry saying to me, at one point we were hanging out, you know, in the lobby of the theater school, just channeling down on something. And he's just like, Hey, Kitley, you know, you're playing a sailor. That's been out at sea with no food for, for, for a couple months. I'm like, ah, he's like, you might want to try to, I mean, he was totally kidding, but I was, you know, cause we were good friends, but it was, it was really, and then I was like, oh yeah.
4
00:52:59
It's like, I'm like, like that method stuff. Right. Bear. You know? And but yeah, that was, that was a fun. That was fun show to work on. Yeah. Yeah. What was your experience of Jim GMO? Complete fear at the beginning. And, and after a while it was like, I, I loved, I loved learning from him. I, he was really tough. It was really tough on us. I'm and I'm glad that he was he and there was no, no bullshit. You know, he would call us out. I didn't, I don't believe that that's not true. You're faking it. Right.
4
00:53:41
But it was, it was a great experience, you know, and I had meetings with him and his and his office and talk about the, you know, doing reviews of whatever play or show I did or whatever. But yeah, I really enjoyed work. You know, I
0
00:53:57
Was thinking about, it's not typical of a response about Jim and also, but looking back, we had one class with him and, and at the time I didn't know who this person was. And he went around and told us who we were like, this is so crazy. I mean, it's a weird thing to do. And he said to me, you are Lenny Bruce. And I thought to myself, oh dude, and fuck you. I don't want him. And I didn't know who Lenny Bruce was years later, like maybe, I don't know. Only
4
00:54:29
About compliments
0
00:54:31
Five years ago. I thought he was insulting me. I thought he was pelting me and calling me. And I didn't even bother to look up who Lenny Bruce was. And I thought this guy is so full of shit. And then five years ago, I was like, wait a minute. This wasn't, this was actually, and I actually Lenny Bruce, someone I really, really connect with on a lot of levels. So anyway, I think it's just interesting how things come back. You know,
2
00:54:54
He he's a gentleman did a lot of this truth telling that I think was hard for many, if not all of us. And I also had a moment like that with him, he told me something, I completely disagreed with it. And many years later I understood it. It was exactly right. He told me, he was just talking about how about accessing real emotions and acting on like a very basic thing. And, and, and I remember pushing back and saying, but you can't always be accessing your own true emotions. And he was like, why not? And I said, because you'll go crazy. And he's like, no, you won't. And I come, I was so rigid and fixed in my idea that, that, that you had to Eric, like you weren't, I wasn't that, you know what I mean?
2
00:55:41
Like I wasn't using, I had just the completely wrong idea about it, but I think part of why he is, let's say controversial is he did a lot of that very direct truth-telling. And if you weren't ready to hear it, you know, you took it as an affront instead of you
0
00:56:01
Guys were old. I mean, MFA's were older a little bit, most of you. So maybe it like maybe he was more, you know, able to, I was just scared. And then I was upset and I think, did you keep in touch with him? Do you know what happened to him? Does anyone know what happened?
4
00:56:17
I think he's maybe in North Carolina. I don't, I, I don't keep in touch with,
3
00:56:24
Yeah.
2
00:56:26
We had three email addresses for him that all bounced.
0
00:56:29
We're trying to get them on the show. So if you're listening,
2
00:56:34
So tell us about what life was like for you when you first graduated and you stayed in Chicago. What was, what were the next steps right after graduation?
4
00:56:47
Well, I remember thinking all I need to do is book a national commercial and I'll be able to pay for most of my financial aid. And it didn't happen that did not happen. I, I got an agent from the showcase. I was with Linda Jack talent, I think now it's, it was Grossman Jack, but yeah, with Mickey Grossman at Linda Jack talent, and he was great sent me out and, you know, I auditioned as much as I could for anything I could for.
4
00:57:31
Yeah. I mean, just, you know, pounding the pavement in terms of auditioning for, for a lot of things, getting, getting a lot of rejection in terms of, you know, auditioning. You're not going to get most of what you audition for and coming out of the theater school, it's like, that's a tough thing to cause you're like, oh, I'm going to do a show every quarter. And that's not the reality when you come out of that really awesome, safe bubble. So, you know, it was a lot of hustling. Like I bartended, I was teaching, you know, as teaching up and pivot and I was teaching sat classes and prep classes at one point, just doing everything I could to kind of keep, keep money coming in
0
00:58:21
And taking it back a little bit. Did you guys have mornings just like we had warnings, did you get all that stuff? Like obviously there was a cut system because your class went from, went down to half. Did you get warned or were you a golden child? How did that work out for you?
4
00:58:37
I, I did not get warned. Yes. I I'll come on. No, I'm kidding. No, I'm, I'm serious there. Like I was like, like, I felt like they wanted all the teachers were like, all right, we can use him as kind of a mold, you know? Like I don't, I don't know, but no, I didn't, I didn't get a warning. I remember a couple of, you know, guy's in my group and our section and getting warnings and it was really stressful. Some people just quit. Some people left after the first year
2
00:59:16
When we talked to Jeff Brown and actually other people have said this to Jeff, but Jeff was telling us, you know, he feels like theater school did so much for him. He learned so much, but that he really didn't learn about the business of acting and, and like how to audition until he was in the workforce. Did you, did you have the same experience?
4
00:59:39
Yeah. Looking back. I think, I think we all, at least I'll just speak for myself. I could have gained a lot, a lot from learning more about the business, learning more about how to navigate, you know, your business. Cause we're all our own, you know, companies so to speak. And I, I didn't have that. I was like, oh, I'm an actor. You know, I'm an artist. And, and, and then it's like, no, you gotta, you gotta bring the business into it. And over the years, I think I've gotten better, but I wish I started, I wish I attacked the business part of it much sooner if not in school.
4
01:00:22
I mean, we, you know, we had Jane Alderman's class, which was fantastic and, and learned a lot about auditioning for, you know, for TV and film. And we talked about agency's and, you know, casting and stuff like that, but we didn't go too far into. Okay. How do you, how do you run your business? How do you market yourself? How do you, how do you make money and what do you do when you get that money? Like, I remember booking a couple of things. Like I booked some, some commercial by the grace of God. It was like this, it was my one, one of my few national commercials.
4
01:01:02
And that money just, I don't know where it went. I mean, and it was like a year or two out of school. And I was like, oh, I got all this money. It was, I mean, I'm like really? I spent all that money.
0
01:01:16
Yeah. Did you have a showcase experience that is worth, do you want to tell us about, because I'm so curious. I'm so curious about the showcase since I live in LA and everything. Tell me what your showcase was. What did you do? How did you feel? Did you get a million interviews? Tell me, yeah.
4
01:01:34
I remember stressing out about, I of course I'm like, oh, I have to find the perfect monologue. You know? Cause we, we were doing model at that time we were doing monologues and I, I think that was it. So I, for like weeks, I tried to find a monologue and I sat down with Jane aldermen and I was like, you got to help me. And she was like, let's write one. And I was like, oh, okay. So she, and I wrote this monologue and I don't remember Chicago showcase, but I'll just talk about LA cause this is kind of funny. So we do the, we do the showcase and you know, everybody's in the audience are a bunch of, you know, other grad's and the, in the audience, of course.
4
01:02:21
And after the show, Sean Gunn comes up to me and he's like, he's like, dude, great showcase. You guys looked awesome up there and congrats and all that stuff. And he's like, your, your performance was good, but your monologue was so bad, dude, where'd you get that? He's like, get that material for you. And Jane and I wrote it. I don't, I don't remember it was I and I don't. It was, and it was like, yeah, I, I don't know what it was about.
0
01:03:02
I was going to say, you know, one of my memories of you is in the, is sitting down in the pit or whatever that place was and the whatever and the, and the theater school. And, and I, I said, I S I think this was Hugh. And I think you were, you were, and this is what I learned. And it says on your website that you're sort of a, a leading man with a really dark comedic streak. And this is what you said to me. I said, I think this was you. I said, good morning, Ryan. And you said, let's not jump to conclusions, Bosworth. And I thought, okay, the funniest thing that I've ever heard, and I was like, oh, oh, okay.
0
01:03:42
And so what I think about you, I think about this sort of leading man type, but that has this dark sort of Glen, Gary, Glen Ross underpinning of like snarky, snarky racisms. And it's interesting. And, and I wanted to ask you about, you know, what Gina had brought up post-graduation and starting out as an actor. How did you, we talk a lot with my students about like, you know, the personal pitch and branding and stuff. How did you develop that? How did you do other people define you as an actor? Do you define yourself? I just, you know, I just have a question about that. Like the leading man with the, how did, how do you even figure that out, that your leading man with a darker sort of comedic undertone, how does that happen?
4
01:04:25
I think that's what I want to be. I mean, you know, like I love, I love playing the lead's and I love, I love dark comedy, but I don't think casting sees me, is that, I mean, how did they see you? Do you think? Well, as far as like TV and film, I think about the amount of times that I've worn, you know, a suit and tie to an audition, because that was the role that I was playing, you know?
4
01:05:06
And maybe it's just the market that we're in, you know, the Chicago PD and bed and fire where I, a lot of times we'll play a lawyer or a politician or a, and I'm like inside. I'm like, no, I want to play that. You know, I want to play that messed up, like serial killer, next X drug addict or whatever. Who's kind of funny, you know, but I mean, I, I think, and I think I mentioned this in our, in our class, Jen, that I feel like the industry kind of, you know, determines your type based on, based on the roles that you're getting called in for.
4
01:05:47
And then at some point, hopefully you have enough clout or enough, you know, credits or whatever you want to call it that you can say, oh, no, I'm going to turn down this lawyer role audition, whatever, because I want to focus on something else, but no, you got to take the jobs that are coming your way,
2
01:06:07
But yeah, yeah. That whole typecasting thing it's, it's still interesting to me. I mean, a person who comes to mind is David a smallish and who's constantly cast, you know, and these villainous fucked up roles. And he will tell you that, like, he can relate to that in some ways, but he's so positive and happy and fun that, and then I have a child who is an actor and he's a big kid and he, oh, only exclusively, exclusively. I can't think of a single time. He didn't get called in for the role of a bully. And he is the sweetest most kindhearted.
2
01:06:49
And he's always like, mom, I don't know how to pay. And you know, so, but, but this tends to be a very important part of being an actor is figure establishing what your essence is, which is often just reflected back to you by the roles that you get called in four, and then embracing it and just saying like, this is, I don't relate to this, but like, this is how they see me. So I'm gonna, you know, make it work for me, which I, I wish it was another thing I wish we had kind of learned a little bit more about and that theater school and how you see yourself almost, almost never matches up with how the casting sees you and, and make them make them believe there.
2
01:07:32
And, and
0
01:07:32
I think you said it right, and I really relate to what you said about like that it's, it's, it's embracing it and, and see saying, okay, if I'm going to be in this profession, and these are the people that are casting me instead of fighting against it, because I think we get into a lot of trouble. No, that's not who I am. That's not well, that's who they see you as. So either, either something's got to shift or you embrace it. And I think embracing it is the only way to go about it or pick another career because, because it is what it is. It is how they see you. Oh, it's so interesting. I'm like having all these Epiphanes down like, oh, I should just embrace the weird neighbor or like, whatever it is, I think accepting it.
4
01:08:16
Right. And, you know, and that's where the business comes in. And it's like, okay, you know, play all these, these roles, these typecast roles and make some money from it and then write your own project, or, you know, write your own, write your own short film or play or whatever, and put yourself in it the way you want it. In other words, give yourself the freedom to do that by I approaching, you know, all these, all these roles that are going to make you some money and, and, and embracing it, like you said, Jen, it's the business part of it. That,
2
01:08:49
And by the way, typecasting is not specific to the world of acting like CEOs tend to be tall, handsome white guys, and, you know, people who are, who, who, who are going for a profession where they don't necessarily look like the archetype of it struggle, struggled. They, they butt up against it, which is not to say that they shouldn't continue that struggle. But like typecasting is kind of a human nature flaw.
0
01:09:20
I think it's a psycho, a psychology thing. Right. And, and, and what's familiar to us and what makes us comforted and, and what we read in books and see on television. And then it just kind of perpetuates itself. But what I think is interesting as writers, that, that one of my goals is to yeah. Is to challenge those typecasts and say, wait a minute, what if the, you know, to pull a boo Radley kind of situation, or to pull a, to make the, the, the really, really beautiful woman, you know, a killer or a whatever. So it's, it's interesting. It's interesting. And I, I think it, DePaul, it would have behooved us. And that's what I'm trying to do at DePaul right now is to have this thing that says, listen, you are, you will yours, no one like you, but people are going to see you a certain way.
0
01:10:06
So, so can you reconcile that? And can you distill it down to a thing and create a sort of personal pitch that is like, Hey, I'm the body of the CU the cookie neighbor wrapped up in the, you know, Sophia Loren package or whoever, whatever you're going to say, but figure it out. And I think it was what I'm saying is take ownership, take ownership of what your career is in that way. Right?
2
01:10:33
So, Ryan, what do you want to do next? Like, do you have some dreams, you know, about the, where this next phase of your career is going to go?
4
01:10:44
I was actually just talking to a friend of mine about this. The other day, a goal of mine is to, and this is a big goal for an actor is to not, not have to audition anymore. I mean, that's, that's, I'm just gonna put it out. I want to get to a point where I can pick and choose, and people are coming to me and saying, Hey, we're considering you this for this. And, you know, as opposed, auditioning with hundreds of people for, for a small role, but that's, that's in a perfect world, but it can
0
01:11:23
Happen. I've seen it where, especially working for PR casting, seeing how some actors make the choice eventually to just be offer only, which means you have to come to me with an offer. And I always think, I know it's risky, but I always say those people are bad-ass that our offer only cause I'm like, they just, yeah. They say,
2
01:11:43
I was just sitting here thinking like, you need a vision board and it needs to say offer only, and you need to hang it in someplace that you see every day. Yep. And you, cause that's what it always did. This is what it always is. This is like one of my big learnings in life. I have the majority of my life felt one way about myself and then hoped that everybody else didn't feel that way about it. And then been angry when they, I get angry when sorry, but he sees me in the exact way. I am presenting myself the way, want to be received. So like, okay, I have to reverse engineer it. I have to just be that thing embody that thing that I'm hoping to get you like faking it until
4
01:12:27
I make it right. Yeah. There's
2
01:12:29
A lot to be said for faking it until you make it. Where can people find you?
4
01:12:33
My website, Ryan www Ryan Kitley dot com.
2
01:12:42
Hey guys, it's Gina popping on at the end here to say, thank you so much for listening. If you are a listener, but not a subscriber, please do subscribe. It really helps with the search engine optimization of it all. There's something like 2 million podcasts out there. So it's pretty hard to make a splash, but people writing reviews, rating, and subscribing and sharing that information with their friends does really help us. So please do that. I Survived Theatre School is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina
2
01:13:22
You can also follow us on social. Thanks.
Jen and Gina pay a small tribute to a complicated man who had a profound impact on them both.
Intro: major life realizations, writing personally, people think you are what you tell them you are
Let Me Run This By You: FOMO
Interview: We talk to Bridget Quebodeaux about Feldenkrais, Cal Arts, anxiety, DEFT, the unique mental health challenges of people who choose a conservatory education, unresolved trauma, trying to figure out who you are through acting, avant garde theatre, John Sarno's work, using her own experiences in theatre school as a tool for doing the therapeutic work she does now.
Intro: SAG insurance, returning to normal, Cedar Point, Disneyland tours, the mundane casualties of covid, conspiracy theories, 5G radiation.
Let Me Run This By You: How good are you at saying you're wrong?
Interview: We talk to Syler Thomas about finding his faith while at TTS, Christian media, and finding performance everywhere.
Intro: Is Boz becoming the next Rick Rubin? Also, fledgling bands, diversifying your anxieties, and
Let Me Run This By You: How do you feel about the concept of laziness?
Interview: We talk to Stefanee White about professional poker playing, microagressions, and proud dads.
Intro: Should Boz become a band manager?
Let Me Run This By You: When you ASSUME.
Interview: We talk to Sarah Charipar about playing old ladies when you're barely an adult.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez and I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
Before we begin this episode? Just a little note to say there were some audio problems with this. I did the best I could fixing it up. The content is still good, but you know, sometimes things work out that way. Mercury was in retrograde or something. I'm sure. Anyway, enjoy.
Speaker 2: (00:47)
Hi. How you doing? How you doing, babe?
I stayed up pretty late. You did. Okay. I have these neighbors. Do you know? Oh my God though, that gives me flashbacks. Um, no, no, I have these neighbors, right. I adore them. Okay. They are young, you know, mid, late twenties in a band that I adore and they're trying to get me to be their manager. I don't think that's a great idea just because I don't know how to manage bands. And I am trying to work on my own career, but, but I did give them some feedback, like about how to go about their there's a great band, great kids, you know, kids 20, 27. Yeah. But still kids to me. And, um, anyway, we stayed on the w we have balconies next to each other. So we just sat out there talking while miles, miles was as long asleep at like seven, but I stayed up until nine.
Speaker 2: (01:48)
So that's late for me. Oh my gosh. I thought all this was building up to like, you stayed up till three in the morning. You got two hours of 7:00 PM. 7:00 PM. Well, he gets up at four. So, um, he goes to bed. No, I shouldn't say last night he did go to bed a little earlier, but usually it's about eight 30, eight, eight 30. It's really quite does he get up at four? Because like, that's his natural body. He likes to do that. He does his burpees. He's Mr. Kind of healthy. He does all this workout stuff and I'm just jealous. That's the reason you didn't see it. But I did like a dismissive hand gestures only because I'm jealous. That's the only reason. So, so he, so anyway, his people were farmers that's. I mean, that's what they say. Like people who are night owls probably have ancestors who were on the night watch, you know, caveman style and people who just a mosquito and people who are early risers were, I mean, I've heard, Oh, I like that. Then that I like that. That means my dad was on the Nightwatch and, uh, or just very
Speaker 3: (03:00)
Depressed and couldn't go to sleep, but, or I'm going to choose the nightmare.
Speaker 4: (03:08)
Let me run this by you.
Speaker 5: (03:15)
I recently called to tell you about, uh, a experience I had with a friend of mine, who I felt like didn't like something I had suggested to them and wasn't responding to my text message and it's, I wasn't, uh, freaked out about it. That's a step forward. And I wasn't even very worried about it, but I thought, okay, well I suggested something to this person. They didn't write me back. My assumption was that they thought it was a terrible idea and didn't want to have any part of it. And I was completely wrong because I had another conversation with this person yesterday. And like, and of course they reason they didn't write me back was completely
Speaker 3: (03:56)
Had nothing to do logical. Right. And this is
Speaker 5: (03:59)
So lesson that I can't seem to grasp that. Like my first inclination is always to say, they're mad at me. I did something wrong.
Speaker 3: (04:13)
Sure. How do I get out of that? I don't know. It's the same. So I think I have the exact same thing. Mine goes mine. It's my first instinct. And I think it's practice of look, actually what I think it is is if you go to that first thing first, which you probably, I probably will, and you probably will, the rest of your life. It's just, just part of the DNA. All right. But the process of working through it right. And getting to the point of being like acceptance of, okay. So if they are mad, okay. So if they are, they hate my guts. Okay. What then, what am I going to, how am I going to take care of myself? If this person is upset or who doesn't want to be my friend or whatever, I think that's the real, um, when of the thing is working through, working with ourselves through that process is the process versus, you know what I'm saying? Like that's the reason it comes up is to, to be worked through and not necessarily that the first instinct will go away because I don't think it will. I just think that's the way we're wired. At least I know that's the way I'm wired. And I think I it's practice of working through so that it becomes less of a whole situation. Um, and more of a, Oh yeah, I did that thing again. Okay. Well, how can I work with myself? Okay. So let me talk it through with somebody, let me, but I, you know,
Speaker 5: (05:48)
Bernie in that, and I have, I guess now that we're talking about, I guess I have come some, what of a way? I mean, cause it used to just be that I would immediately respond to that person and say like, I'm sorry, I take it back. Or, or like, I know that I know you hate me now.
Speaker 3: (06:05)
Just start crying profusely, get on the phone and say, I'm sorry, I'm so terrible. Um, and please forgive me. Yeah. Like you said, it was a, be a whole play, a drama
Speaker 5: (06:18)
And then DBT, uh, I think it was in DBT, but anyway, as a therapist, I would always encourage my clients to check the facts about something, you know, because feelings aren't facts and you know, just because even if you have, even if this person really doesn't care for you, that doesn't mean that every interaction you have you're, you're doing something wrong. You're, you know, you should be put up on the cross.
Speaker 3: (06:40)
Yeah. It's just ownership of self. And of, I think it really, for me comes down to this core, core, deep, deep belief that I deserve to have my feelings. I deserve to have opinions about things. Um, I deserve to take, um, to take initiative on ideas and even if they're shot down or even if people think it's the stupidest idea in the world, I deserve to throw things out there and see, and you know, it's, it's a deep, deep core situation for me. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (07:14)
Yeah. It is. And, and I think I I'm really learning. It's there's a big part of it. That's generational too. I mean, you know, when we talk to younger people, they seem a lot less burdened by, I mean maybe sometimes going in the opposite direction. So that was the other thing I was just going to ask you about is now that you've been teaching at DePaul for a minute.
Speaker 3: (07:37)
Well, now I'm done. It's crazy. Well, I'm not done. I'm done, but yeah, it has been quite the journey. So they're just like us in some ways. It is amazing. So I had 13 individual one-on-ones with these students, um, at 10 minutes each. So I offered one-on-ones because they really wanted that. And they too
Speaker 5: (08:06)
Knew like her feedback about their
Speaker 3: (08:09)
Like, to do like therapy. Let's just be honest because they're struggling. And it was my suggestion. It turned into not therapy, but it did turn into a lot of coaching. Let's just say, but they're struggling just like we were, even though there's I would say, yeah, I would say a good 13 out of 24, right. Or 12 out of 24 half are struggling with the exact same thing. I don't have a rep. Other people have reps. Now they get reps before school ends because they they'd been auditioning for, um, agents, um, on zoom. They had like a class where they bring agents in. So half that sets up a dynamic where half the people now have reps and half don't. So the people that don't have acting reps obviously wanted to meet with me partially to say, how do I get a rep? And I'm like, listen, it takes time. You'll find your people. Let me, I, and I offered to help with, I say, send me your showcase link when you have it, your part, your monologue. I will send it to my peeps, but like, it's the same stuff we're dealing. We dealt with. I think they're not quite as quiet about it. Like they're pretty loud about it.
Speaker 5: (09:22)
They don't have their quiet shame that they'd have to wait 25 years to listen to somebody else on a podcast to go, Oh, I shouldn't have been ashamed about that at all. Everybody was feeling the same thing.
Speaker 3: (09:30)
Yeah. That they're loud, they're vocal about their issues. So that actually makes it somewhat easier to work with. But it also is. I'm jealous, you know, that they're able to be so vocal. Um, that brings up a lot. I have a lot of feelings of like man D but then at the root they're just as scared as, as we were, well, a lot of them and just as, um, petrified to fail. And just as a, I think it's just an age thing too. And it's also a competition thing. Like there's a lot of competition and within the school, right. Because you set it up, some have repped, some don't and that sets up this whole dynamic of some of these kids or these young people are going on auditions. And they're not like supposed to, but because it's a zoom world, it's a different situation
Speaker 5: (10:20)
Rule that they're not supposed to, but everybody took advantage of this time. Which of course they did. And I would have thought
Speaker 3: (10:26)
Of course. And so anyway, it has been, it was in very fascinating ride, but what I did find was, you know, after my 13 one-on-ones I was exhausted. Like I had to lay down, it was like 13 mini therapy sessions. And I was like, and then follow up, you know, I I'm sending certain people resources. So, but I do feel like it was, it didn't, it didn't feel, um, I don't feel resentful. I feel like they paid me really well. And this is part of my deal. And also one of my, one of my strong suits, one of my jams is connecting one-on-one and really listening and saying, Hey, like, you know, let's like you said, like, let's look at the facts here. You know, you haven't graduated yet, but you see, it doesn't matter because when you're that age, you feel like there is no time. And now you look, as we get older, I'm like, Oh my God, you had so much time girl.
Speaker 5: (11:23)
But the other day sitting at my rate, waitressing job, talking to this guy who was, you know, he was a good 30 years older than me. I was 20, I think. Um, I think it was like 24 and being like, I'm old, I'm at 24. I started thinking I'm almost 25. And then when you're 25, it's over like every, you have to have everything established by the time you're 25 because who, you know, becomes a person after that. Like, I really thought
Speaker 2: (11:54)
That way. And in part it was because, uh, not because I thought my parents were so emotionally mature because they'd be the first to say, or at least my mom would be the first to say that they weren't, but they own their first house when they were like, they got married at 18, they own their first house right away. Or I guess they rented. But then really soon they own their first house. And that kind of set the bar. Like I felt, I feel like a failure sort of before I even went to school, like, there's no way I'm going to be right. You know, right away. I felt the same. Like I think it's generation. Yeah. I, my parents had their, they didn't have their together emotionally, you know, and, but they definitely own the house and they definitely had job jobs. And, you know, so that, and also the, I guess that speaks to the difference of what kind of, what we culturally value we had.
Speaker 2: (12:47)
There was no room for valuing like personal growth and development at that time. Whereas that that's gotten much more of a stakehold in terms of our societal values and, and hopefully less and less about what you have and what you own and how much money you have. Oh, well, that's interesting. So if you're listening to this and you're, this is your final year of the theater school, it gets better, you know, it gets better and it's already good. Like there's this combination platter of the, the depth of despair that you may be feeling now that'll get better. Um, but also you are doing it. You are doing the career part. The training is part of the career. Everything that comes after that. Yeah. You'll, you'll, you'll build upon. I mean, that's what we've learned during this podcast. Like you build a PA, even if you leave in 10 years, you find yourself, you didn't do anything, thought what you thought you were going to be doing in this final year.
Speaker 6: (13:49)
You are using your skills and what you learned there, and you are applicable everywhere. This is your life, you're living it. And this is the life like it's all of
today on the podcast, we talked to Sarah charper. Sarah is one of those actresses that multiple people that we've talked to have described as a powerhouse. And she really is, and she's on stage and on screen. She's just so connected. She has such a presence. And, um, we talked to her and it was a lovely conversation. And I just she's has this outlook about the pandemic and about life. That's really inspiring. So I'm so glad we got to talk to Sarah charper on I survived theater school. Enjoy
fancy. I, I move your camera so I can see
Speaker 2: (14:52)
Your beautiful face. I want to see the bottom of your beautiful face there you okay. Oh, you're so you're so I know you're not supposed to say this, but Sarah, you, you have you, are you eating?
Speaker 6: (15:05)
What's going on? I I'm it's it's so funny. H I said the same thing. I mean, I, I, I don't. I have, I don't. I mean, yes, yes. I'm yes. I'm you look great. Thank you. Just checking that, you know what I did? I, um, I stopped drinking. It was weird. I mean, I haven't, I have not had any alcohol in like three months and all of a sudden, like I have a chin wall. I mean, just like, I think the puffy goat has gone away. Um, yeah. Regrettably, I guess. I, I it's, it's so nice to see your face and I still feel like such a crumb that I, I just think I had a pandemic stroke that last time, but, um, I'm so happy to see that something terrible had
Speaker 2: (15:47)
Happened. Um, Fred, this passed away.
Speaker 6: (15:50)
Oh, right. That's right. Yeah. One of the mini pandemic suicides. Um, Oh my God. Yeah. So sorry. Um, but this was super fun, but this is fun. What a. I am Jen before. So before I forget, you have to send me your address because I have something for you that I've had for over a year. And now I feel bad, Gina, because I don't have something for you, but I don't know what to get you, but I do. I'll share it. I do have something for you, Jen, that I've had for a very long time, and you're going to know what it is and when you see it, Oh my God. I can't wait. I can't wait. Well, welcome. And congratulations.
Speaker 2: (16:32)
You survived theater
Speaker 6: (16:33)
School. I did allegedly
Speaker 2: (16:36)
You in actual fact, you survived it and you are. I ha I probably shouldn't be starting this with such a gush, but you, you are such a fantastic actress. I mean, really everything you do now, everything you did in school is fantastic. You are so like deeply connected to everything you do. It's very admirable.
Speaker 6: (17:03)
Thanks. We hear it all the time.
Speaker 2: (17:09)
We've heard it from multiple people on the podcast about how much of a powerhouse or like in the, you know, in the Facebook chat situation, how much of a powerhouse. And I think that's the word that comes to mind when I think of your and your you and your acting is like powerhouse, but connected is also like Gina said, totally connected. And I've seen you, you know, in rooms, running casting sessions, and you're the same way you're connected as a reader. You're connected as a casting associates. So you're,
Speaker 6: (17:39)
You should see me weeping in corners on a regular basis.
Speaker 2: (17:43)
So, um, did you want to be an actor since you were a young lady? Um,
Speaker 6: (17:50)
I think, well, my mother always says th th th th my transformative moment, they took me to go. I grew up in upstate New York. So they took me to the Shaw festival and I saw Cyrano de Bergerac and Cyrano was played by this. I want to say, he'd let her know. His name is Heath Heath Lambert, a very diminutive, um, Canadian actor. Well, I say that only because he played Cyrano, who is such a heroic, huge character. Um, and the one we played Roslyn was so beautiful, but more importantly, her hat was amazing. Like she had one of those pointed princess hats with a gossamer hanging down, which I don't know if you it's like, that's the fabric that looks like fairy dust. And my mom is like she said, Sarah, you just sat at the edge of your seat and didn't breathe the entire time.
Speaker 6: (18:33)
And I still to this day, and I think I might, I think I might've been nine. I still, to this day, remember sitting in that theater, just being like now, granted I was mostly drawn to the fairy dust and the applause, but I, um, I don't think I ever recovered from that moment, but I really, it, it has taken me, um, I'll say I'm, I'm 50 now. I think I've just started to admit that I'm going to be an actor. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think I ever really wanted to own that. I don't think I ever wanted to, although I just said I was 50, but everyone knows that. Um, uh, I don't think I wanted to own that. So I did a lot of things to kind of be like, Oh, I'm going to be an academic. I'm going to, you know, um, so really what kind of academic did you think you might've studied theater?
Speaker 6: (19:15)
I mean, I got it, got my degree in theater studies and women's studies and religious studies. So really, I just liked studying people and motivation. So it's all the same thing, right? Like, Oh yeah, definitely all the same thing was when it, DePaul, I went to university of Toronto for my undergrad. So, um, they're in there, you know, they're a very rigorous academic school. Um, and it's a totally different than the American system. Like most of your classes are a year long, some are a half year. So it's a really like hardcore, like in some of the colleges they wear robes. It's very, um, not my school, but, um, so yeah, so I, I went there and got a BA in theater in women's studies and, and, um, religious studies, uh, and did have some performance. So that's why I went on to get my masters, um, w where I ended up at DePaul, uh, because I wanted to learn how to act.
Speaker 6: (20:09)
I mean, I knew what I thought was really great theater. And I worked with incredible people that I still haven't had the gift of working with people of that caliber ever again, but I didn't know how the to do anything. I just felt a lot. Yeah. Did you, did you act as a, in high school, did you say, Oh, golly. No, it wasn't. So it's funny. So I went to my high school, I went to a super urban high school and it was connected to the school of the arts, but again, this fight in me, I was like, I'm not going to go to school, the arts, I'm not going to be one of them. Um, and like, you know, I went to high school with Taye Diggs, whose name is Scott. Um, you know, uh, people who ended up having massive careers. And I sort of sat on the periphery. I did, however, was a part of
Speaker 7: (20:48)
An improvisational theater group called awareness theater, which is hilarious. And I think about it now. And we went around and did improv for like, doctors about how to deal with kids with like drug addiction or parental issues. And I think I was remembering the day. I think we actually did a performance at Attica, and I'm not even you. Like, I don't know who led us in these places, but we did these improv's about like, don't do the cocaine, but I want to do the cocaine. And like we got in a van and drove to schools. I mean, I had a little sweatshirt, I loved it so much. I loved it so much.
Speaker 5: (21:18)
So I love that. That's fantastic. So, um, in upstate New York, uh, you went to the shop festival. Did you get, did your parents also take you to Broadway Broadway?
Speaker 7: (21:29)
Um, I believe so. The first Broadway show I saw was the touring company of Annie. So I saw that in Rochester, the first Broadway show I saw was the tap dance kid. I think
Speaker 7: (21:42)
Alfonso, Roberto, the kid, yes. Right. He was the tap dance kid. Um, and you guys are, you're younger than me by a lot, but this was the time too, in my junior high, they had to band taps because in the, in the, um, the musical, there were all these great tap numbers where they had like converse sneakers with taps on the bottom. So everyone had to get taps. So as you can imagine, the halls of my high school were just says, coffin is insane. Those got manned along with the Michael Jackson belts. Cause everyone beat each other with them.
Speaker 5: (22:14)
It was a little aggressive with the spice,
Speaker 7: (22:18)
The ones with the big name, like the one where you could get them personally, not, you know what I mean? We weren't allowed to wear those as anything could be weaponized with a creative mind
Speaker 5: (22:28)
When I was in junior high, I got sent home for wearing, um, what I thought was just a cute little accessory in my hair, a bandana, it wasn't red or blue, but I got sent home because there was a no bandana, uh, gang violence in Sacramento at the time that I was in junior high was like real, real, real high. So, uh, anyway, so, okay. So you, uh, did your MFA at DePaul and, and then when you left or when you graduated, were you debating, staying in Chicago, moving to LA moving to New York?
Speaker 7: (23:06)
No. Um, I I'm realizing now in this pandemic time of reflection, like how much, and I've been thinking so much about this thinking about theater school and stuff. Um, no, I think I was lived with, I think I just lived in fear and waited for permission. So I was waiting for something to tell me where I had to go. Um, and I thought Chicago was a great place to get started. And I, um, I had friends of mine right out of school who had started a company. Um, so we were working together. So that seems like a great little launching pad and then they watched real careers. Um, and, um,
Speaker 6: (23:47)
Was that sad? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: (23:50)
Yeah. We were talking to Lee a little bit about it,
Speaker 6: (23:52)
Eric. I was thinking about him this morning. Um, yeah, so they, um, so I, no, I didn't. I mean, I did, did I think that that call was going to come where I was desperately needed elsewhere. Absolutely. But, um, shockingly, that hasn't arrived yet, but there's time
Speaker 2: (24:09)
Fair to be fair. You have had calls come for different things.
Speaker 6: (24:13)
I have, indeed. I have been very lucky. No, I have been very lucky, um,
Speaker 2: (24:17)
And hardworking. I just want to put that out there, that call comes and then we answer it and we try to show up the best we can and you've done.
Speaker 6: (24:25)
I appreciate that. And I, and I feel like
Speaker 2: (24:27)
Ciao hasn't called yet. Judd, Apatow has not called yet, but that doesn't
Speaker 6: (24:32)
No, and I, it's funny, I have been thinking a lot about, you know, when, when you're ready for things and when you're not. And, um, I don't know if the world is ready, but I kind of feel more ready now than I ever happened. So that's kind of exciting to not feel like your life is over in the midst of all this chaos and breaking down. It's sort of interesting to find, I'm trying to, I'm really trying to silver lining this whole pandemic, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: (24:56)
Yes, yes. There is the option. The alternatives are not good. Silver line.
Speaker 6: (25:02)
I know. Right. I mean, don't we all? So, um, yeah, so, no, I, I mean, I wanted to go and I did, I did spend some time in New York. Um, I went with a show, um, I did it, I ended up doing, um, Cuckoo's nest at Steppenwolf, and then we did it in London and then we did it in New York and then the world went to hell in a hand basket and I saw the world trade center fall down. I thought, well, I want to go back to Chicago. So anyway, blah, blah, blah, um, nine 11 Blomberg. Anyway, that happened back to me.
Speaker 2: (25:35)
I have a question. I have a question going back to the, so when you, when you decided, did you decide, um, were, were other schools in the running for you besides DePaul for your MFA?
Speaker 6: (25:44)
Well, so I had already gone to another program for a year. I went to SUNY Binghamton, um, in Binghamton New York, which is where rod Sterling's from, that gives you an indication. Um, and that program was actually rather astounding. It was run by this guy, gene lesser, God rest, his soul, who I can unequivocally say was a bit of a sociopath, but he was one of the people who started Julliard in the early days. So he was one of those Svengali kind of teachers that could get you to do work. You never thought you had access to, but you were completely dependent on him to do it, which is why he had these weird little acolytes following him around and stuff. So I spent a year kind of being brainwashed by him and then the program crumbled. So then I had to find somewhere, um, the program shut down and it was hell in a hand, basket was just total task. Um, so I left that program and then went through the process of desperately auditioning and, um, you know, when Tish and Julliard and everyone else to get that, but I will say this, this is an amazing story. So I went to New York for the IRDAs
Speaker 7: (26:44)
Or something to audition for DePaul. And, um, at the time I had just been recovering from an illness. All of us ladies are familiar with it, had a horrible UTI. And so I took sulfa and didn't know I was allergic to sulfa. Um, and if you're allergic to sulfa, it does something great. So I went into my audition. I, you not by face was swollen. You came out to here. Like I looked, I looked like a homeless person in the middle of a Chicago winter by that. I mean, my face was completely swollen and disbanded, dark purple when burned and insane. My lips were deformed. Um, I mean, I looked horrified and I remember standing like in this waiting pen room, like it was a dance studio and there are mirrors everywhere. And I was just kind of looking at myself going, are you me?
Speaker 7: (27:33)
And I was like, Oh, okay, here we go. And I went and did my pieces and was like, I remember Jim hostel help was there. And I think John Jenkins and all these people, and I finished my pieces and they're like, do you have any questions? And I just kind of stand there, look at them going seriously. We're not going to talk about that. I've ever been like, just in case any of you are wondering, I don't normally look like this. I'm like, I'm not a supermodel, but this is not what we're normally just to put that out there. Cause like, it was good. You were brave to do that. Oh my like, I mean, I was making children cry in the streets. I mean, I really, but it was just so funny that they didn't even acknowledge. I mean, I get it, but we weren't even politically correct then, but no one said a word and I'm like, we're going to pretend I don't look like a descendant of the elephant man. Okay. But anyway, they took me. I think they felt badly for me.
Speaker 5: (28:20)
No, no. They saw they saw your talent audition.
Speaker 7: (28:26)
I know, I think I know I had this piece. I have no idea of what it's from, but it was about green peppers, like about, do I not like green peppers? And I went to this diatribe. No. As a matter of fact, I hate it. Actually. I really hate it. Everyone else likes green peppers. They think it was highlighted in that it was this theory about grit, which is very close to me cause I tend to get furious about nonsense. Um, and I probably did something tragic, like from Troilus and Cressida. I think I did a Cassandra monologue control. I was impressed. I talk about overblown. Like I'm, I'm going to play a deeply connected sear. Um, but they felt,
Speaker 5: (29:02)
I bet you knocked it out of the park. So you weren't talking about, uh, your earlier experience in having a spin golly type figure. And I, I probably wouldn't go so far as to say the theater school head spin golly types, but we did have, and we talk about on this podcast a lot, you know, people with big personalities people w we, we got, um, labeled in a way by our section in a way. Uh, so I'm curious to know your thoughts about that, about the personalities among the faculty, how you related to it, then how you relate to it now, what
Speaker 2: (29:42)
Your thoughts are.
Speaker 8: (29:42)
Well, so it's interesting, again, like I've been really deliberating about this a lot, you know, cause I wanted to do a good podcast to help you get now I know there's a great at the end, I was in a very different position. You know, I'd already gone to undergrad for four years and I'd already done one year of, of theater training. So I came into it at a different place and it was interesting because, um, temperamentally, I was much more, I felt a greater kinship with, uh, the folks that were getting BFAs and my MFA class. I mean, I really just didn't, it's not that I didn't get along with them. I just didn't. I was in school with a lot. I'll never forget. I was auditioning. I wanted to go to, um, ATC elemental P whatever the Harvard school is and I'll forget it.
Speaker 8: (30:21)
They were audition. They were like, if you want to be a teacher, get the hell out of here. We don't want accuracy. We want to be teachers. We want actors who want to act. And I was like, yes. Um, and not in any way to be disparaging of the folks that were in my class, but I felt like a lot of people were like, this is my backup. I'm going to be a teacher. And I'm like, who's going to want you to teach if you don't actually do this. Right. So, um, there was a little, just a little bit of a disconnect. And I think, I thought I knew everything and I was more than likely a snapback. So I, um, I didn't have the same kind of, Oh my God, this is a whole new world for me. You know, I was 23 and worldly, you know, but I'd already had those aha moments.
Speaker 8: (31:02)
So, and I came out of a really, um, I don't want to say for me, but like a borderline abusive stage. I think, I mean, I think this teacher I had before was actually a predator. And I say this now, cause he's dead. Although I should say it out loud when he was alive, I think he was a predator. So, um, I came out of a very intense environment into something where I remember sitting with Jamal's to Hoff all the time and he'd be like, Sarah, I just feel like you want me to yell at you. And I was like, yes. And then I had a little PTSD. I was like, no, one's mean enough. No, one's hard enough. Um, and I was constantly asking for more in gym and it's funny. Cause like everyone was like Jim Austin, Hoff crusty guy. And I'm like, I want more crust.
Speaker 8: (31:39)
I um, and I think I was very much a victim of one of those people that convinced myself that it didn't hurt. And I wasn't an excruciating pain all the time. I wasn't doing enough. Um, and if people didn't tell me how much I sucked, then they thought I couldn't be better. And so I really had, I was stuck with that feeling for a very long time in DePaul, like, Oh, I guess this is as good as I'm gonna get. Cause no one seems to tell me what I need to fix. And again, no one can, no one can fix me other than me. Uh, but I think I a very much, um, I think it goes into the whole permission thing that I was really looking for someone to tell me what was wrong and tell me I was going to be okay and tell me I was gonna make it. And that I was one of the chosen ones so that I could go out and take chances, which I think is the biggest problem with theater school in general. But that's a customer question.
Speaker 2: (32:26)
It's interesting because we do have a lot of you're the first person that I've really is struck me as saying like I needed more crust, I wanted more crust. I needed that for whatever reason. And it's, there's no judgment on, but um, there
Speaker 5: (32:40)
Are those people and I think it's also the Julliard method. That kind of method of, you know, unless it hurts, you're not, you're not growing and you know, to be fair, there's something about that that works like when I'm in pain is when I make changes in my life. It's just that, uh, you seem a little, like you were a little more ready to make changes. I was just trying to figure out what's happening.
Speaker 8: (33:00)
Well, totally. I was in a different place. I mean, I had, I'd already left home. I lived, you know, in a university of Toronto, it's a totally different than the American system. Like you live on your own, you live in co-op housing. There's no doubt. I mean like I had already sort of lived a pseudo, I mean a wildly protected pseudo adult life for five years. So I wasn't in the same place of like, Holy crap, I get to smoke cigarettes in front of teachers. You know what I mean? Like I, uh, so I just, um, but again, like, I, I still very much, I mean, it's not a level of maturity that I'm, I'm super proud of because I still very much was desperately seeking for someone to say, Sarah, you can live the life you want to live. You can be who you want to be. And it's not about which role you get here. Cause it's, you know, that world is also as the three of us don't we, we were never fricking algae news. What the hell was I doing? Doing shows and theater school.
Speaker 5: (33:52)
Right, right. Yeah. So you, you are w when you talk about waiting for permission and, and being scared, um, that ties into something that boss and I talk about all the time, and we talked about it earlier today. Uh, those of us who, whose parent whose mothers were in the sixties generation of feminism, um, really experienced, horrible, horrible things. And so their impression that they taught to us and that became our impression is that it was all fixed and it was all better. And feminism worked and patriarchy was over, which is obviously less laughable,
Speaker 8: (34:43)
Just look at TV.
Speaker 5: (34:44)
Yeah, exactly. But we, I feel envious of young women growing up now, even at, even though they can still be in a patriarchal context, they can still be oppressed by somebody no longer. Is there just such a dearth of information about what, how it could be, or maybe even how it should be. Um, do you ever feel that envy wishing that you had been raised with, or maybe you were raised with a strong feminist bent? I don't know.
Speaker 8: (35:19)
Uh, well for sure, like I was raised in a tremendous matriarchy. I mean, everyone jokes, my, my late father, like my friends who, like, he just was a husk and a corner, which he wasn't, but like we just, I come from not surprisingly generations of really dominant women. Um, but I also, um, you know, my mother is the kind of woman she was getting her master's degree, worked a full-time job and raised two children and did everything all at the same time. So my mom didn't have time to about. I mean, so my parents were political and social idealists and they, they actually met in Chicago is this part of this Catholic youth, um, rebel organization. I mean, they were, as far as Catholics can be, but they were really about social justice and change. And so I grew up around all of that.
Speaker 8: (36:04)
Um, but I also think at a certain point, like what's funny is I, I noticed this particular last year at the beginning of the pandemic when things got cuckoo and, um, so many issues, so many social issues came to light. I realized how old and out of touch I was. Do you know what I mean? Like I had, I had lived this whole period thinking I am so enlightened. And then all of a sudden I was teaching these students and I was like, Laura. And I like literally vomiting on my own words and terrified of saying the wrong thing and not understanding, um, social codes anymore and thought, but I'm a good person. You know, I went through all that white guilt and fear and doubt. And so, um, yes, I, I, I, well, envious of these women, I'm, I'm envious for the time that they have.
Speaker 8: (36:48)
I'll say that I'm really envious of the time. And I try very much not to squander the time I have worrying about what I did with the time I wasted. Um, but I, uh, you get your lessons when you get them, I guess. Uh, but I think it's a really complicated place that people are in, but I'm very encouraged. And I was having this discussion recently with friends of mine, talking about the movies we grew up with. And again, like I thought me and my girlfriends, like nine years old going to see like nine to five or like we just thought we were a little budding feminists. And then I go back and I look at 16 candles and I'm like, I was obsessed with rape movies. You know what I mean? Like, um, coming, having those awakening moments of realizing I'm brainwashed too, um, or realizing that women cease to exist past 40.
Speaker 8: (37:32)
You know, when, when I was reading an interview with Reese, with this one recently where she was like, stop time up, Oh, this is a picture of me on set, playing Adam Sandler's mother. You know what I mean? Or like that new shell manque, that's out like Amanda, Seyfried's playing what's her butt's wife. And she's 78 years younger than him. And in real life, his wife was the same, you know, like just this horse shittery where like who's controlling the narrative of who women are is just especially as someone who's like, Oh wait, here I am, I'm 50. I'm ready to go. Now I'm like, well, I have to write it because you know what? These men are terrified to know that we exist.
Speaker 2: (38:08)
Right. That's absolutely true. And I, I just think, yeah, so that speaks of that thing of like, um, right. I don't know if you guys feel this, but it's like, I came of age thinking I was a feminist and that, that we, everything was possible that I was crushed right by the system. And now I'm coming of age again saying, and I am, I am, I wish I have this on this podcast all the time where I'm listening. I'm like, man, I wish I knew this when I was 18. And there's that thing where they say, you can't know what, you know, until you know it, but I hate that because I just, if I was armed with this, I listened to the stories of people that come on the podcast that are like, you know, I told so-and-so to F off that I was going to play this part or that, and I'm like, I wish I had had that, but you're right.
Speaker 2: (38:50)
You'd get, you'd get the lessons when you get them. But it sounds like you were able, there just seems to be a sense then about yourself, that when you were at the theater school, that you were able to step into your own, which is why you probably seemed so connected and were, was, was a good actor. And the rest of us were not terrible actors, but I can tell you, it wasn't that I was a terrible actor, is that I had no clue what was going on. You had a clue of what was going on, which is why your work probably seemed so connected because you knew
Speaker 7: (39:18)
I, maybe I just, I just had more of a chance to know who I was. And I think so much, I think so much of it. And again, like I think about Slack because I teach acting now and I teach at the university level a lot. And, um, I think so much of that environment is about a, tell me I can do this as there's a whole body of people that are gonna tell you just, just between you and me just to make it, am I going to make it like that feeling all the time of thinking someone can actually bestow your life upon you. Um, and then having someone to like, who are you? Who are, who am I do? Can you tell me who I am? And here I am going to school. And yes, I had, I had a pretty, I had a more, um, secure sense of self because I was older just by virtue of years.
Speaker 7: (39:58)
Um, and I w I was fortunate to be exposed to a lot of things in a very unique way, I think. Um, but still I went into theater school and I played old ladies, my entire career. I played old women. I played grandmothers and old women and the fat ferry. And then I got out of school and I played hookers for 20 years. Do you know what I mean? Like we, there's no sense of what, so theater school doesn't really help you find a truth. And that the hilarious irony is like, you get to be your senior year and you got to do the showcase, which is going to make or break your whole life. And they're like, how are you going to market yourself? And I'm like, are you kidding me? I have no idea of who I am, because I've been running around playing.
Speaker 7: (40:43)
I played women in theater school that I'm still too young to audition for. So it, it, it, it you up in terms of trying to figure out some way of being authentic and you know, how it is to, it's funny, I'm sure John, you saw it too. You know, our, our dear friend, Nick Whitcomb wrote something recently about like theater and what does theater mean? And I'm thinking, you know, gone are the days where we're all sitting around. I mean, hopefully not forever. We have to reimagine them, but like, I don't know how much me playing Cresseta in Troilus and Cressida is going to aluminate today's world. I don't know how much this can of things that we thought were really going to establish us as artists is going to move us forward anyway. And yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: (41:29)
I also feel like theater never really embraced me as a woman as a,
Speaker 5: (41:34)
As who I am. So I'm, I'm, I don't feel a loyalty to recreate the art form, which other people can, I just never found like my spot there. So when people are like, how are we going to reimagine theater? I'm like, because I, I never
Speaker 8: (41:50)
Theater that I liked in America, to be honest, I was spoiled. I was trained by a bunch of Europeans and undergrad and went, I mean, we went on school trips to Italy and Germany and Sasha, and that's the, still to this day, that theater, I, my favorite theater is Russians and Germans and stuff where it's like, I don't have to speak the language. Like to me, that's theater. I don't know a word you're saying. And I'm riveted. And that's, that's what I've never seen that really recreated here. Um,
Speaker 5: (42:14)
All right, well, gauntlet thrown America. You got to try to impress Sarah. I told boss this earlier, but, um, I just happened yesterday to be looking through the plays in my bookshelf. And, um, I was looking for, uh, to do something specific and I P I picked up a play that I haven't read in a long time called dead man's cell phone. And of course, I was delighted to see your name as having been one of the original, other, other woman, uh, characters. Can you tell us anything about your experience with that play?
Speaker 8: (42:53)
Yeah, that was great. That was super, super funny play. I mean, um, how do I talk about that? You know, it's so, so, so, so Pauli Noonan, um, who play gene and the play is sort of like Sarah rules muse. So it's very interesting to be in a play with the writers muse in there. And Polly's just one of these, she's just an other worldly being she's, she's a magnificent human being and creature, but like indescribable, I just use just this ephemeral sort of creature. Um, uh, and it was, you know, it's always interesting to work on new plays. It was, um, I find it really challenging. It was sort of one of those, and I'm in poly had done the show before. Cause I remember going like, you know, of course I'm trying to make my role really important and grounded. And sometimes, you know, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 8: (43:40)
So I think there were times where I was beating my head against a wall, trying to make my, to understand every, uh, every bit of minutia I could mind out of it. And, you know, I remember once Paul saying to me, yeah, you know, this part never worked in DC either like that. It's um, Oh, wow. That there were shortcomings, but it was, it was wonder, I mean, it was wonderful, you know, I, um, I never, you know, it's like, I think I went through a period. I was like, I'm going to keep working. And then you don't work for a long time. And you're like, I wish I appreciated those moments more. I mean, it was, it was, it was lovely. It was terrifying. I remember, I, of course I only really remember the moments I went up on my lines and didn't know what's happening and got Jeezy on a rake stage and was terrified. Um, please, anyone directing plays, don't put anyone on rage stage. It's just cruel. Um, especially anyone with anxiety vertigo. Forget it. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 6: (44:36)
You were on a rake stage at the theater school, in the one with the turf. What was that called?
Speaker 8: (44:42)
That was called systemly feelings, which for like six years, I still found AstroTurf in my underwear. Yeah. That
Speaker 6: (44:52)
You
Speaker 8: (44:52)
Were brilliant too. That was brilliantly. That was,
Speaker 6: (44:56)
That was the audition right. Where we had to be funny. Wasn't that the one where
Speaker 8: (45:01)
It was late and it was super funny. Okay. And, and I was thinking that Lee Kirk, this is my cousin Lee Kirk was in it. Sean Gunn was in it. JP Cabrera was in it Alex, but like, I mean, and, and, and, and, and, um, Bradley Walker and that, that play Kendra through. And that, that was, that play was F I was all, yeah, that was my favorite place for sure. That I did. Although, full of calamitous moments of, of utter tear and, and destruction.
Speaker 6: (45:28)
Did you get dizzy on that rake stage too?
Speaker 8: (45:30)
No, I got, I got sculled. I got to horrible things happen in this show. I have to. Okay. So the first one was, there's always a show at the end of like one scene, there's like a coin toss. And then that determines what the next scene is going to be. And we had to run off stage. It was a rainstorm. We had to run back on stage wet. So we got dunked with water off stage and ran back on. And I can't remember, Stan, I'm such a crumb. He was a lovely stage manager. We had long kind of Auburn hair and he was just adorable.
Speaker 6: (46:00)
Oh, yes. It'll come to me.
Speaker 8: (46:07)
Yeah. Reddish hair you're with me. Okay,
Speaker 6: (46:12)
Lovely.
Speaker 8: (46:12)
So I remember, um, he had told the, the, the kids, I say kids, because what other, th th th the kids working crew, um, make sure you put relief, um, warm water in, at the top of the act, put hot water in the bucket at the top of the app so that when we dunk them in water, they, um, aren't freezing. And, um, Oh no, whoever, uh, neglected to do this. So did it at the end of the act. And I ran off stage and literally had a giant bucket of scalding water poured on top of me. And I had to run immediately back on stage and finish a scene that was alarming.
Speaker 6: (46:51)
Oh, that's horrible. And how far along were you on?
Speaker 8: (46:55)
I was on stage then for another few minutes. And then we did the coin toss, but I just looked at Kendra and like, you're doing the next scene. I was like, this is not because I couldn't go. I was like hyperventilating. I'm like, I can't, I mean, it's like burn cream in my hair line. And then I had, like, I had like a scene or two to recover, and then I had to go back on, but that, because it was like the potential to do like eight different plays or whatever, the way that play was set up. Um, but that wasn't the most terrifying moment. I will, the most terrifying thing that happened that show. So there was a whole big picnic scene. We were all, I remember this all on that Hill. And Gus thing is about the extra guy. I think it was Bradley's an extra guy shows up.
Speaker 8: (47:31)
So we were one short we're, one short of everything. And all of the dialogue in that scene revolves around the one shortness, and God it. If I didn't open that picnic basket and it was empty, there was like a napkin and two plates. And I'll never forget this. I was thinking of Lee. Cause like I was really, I was really tight with those guys at the time and, and I was running the picnic. So all the dialogue was motivated by me, motivated by prompts about the things and about the lack of things. And I remember opening it up and looking at it being like, there's nothing in here. And this is that the reskin, like there's people out there. And I turned to Sean, Sean Gunn, he was playing my boyfriend Steph, and I'm like, Stafford, could you go to the car and see if there's a bank in the County?
Speaker 8: (48:23)
And I just remember looking over it and seeing Lee Kerr, cause he could tell him he just went and put his hands behind his head and lean back. Like I can't wait to see how Sarah gets out of this one. I'll never forget that. It was so funny. I mean, it was like the most panicked and we just had to basically make up the entire like, and then I remember seeing that same stage manager whip off his headset go poking around, trying to find, and then like, you know, three minutes later Sean comes walking out. I was like, Oh, is this what you're looking for? I'm like, Oh, was super,
Speaker 5: (48:49)
Thank you so much. Oh wow.
Speaker 8: (48:53)
Like I think of that moments where I'm like, Oh God, what if? And I'm like, I already dealt with a big one, if that's fine. And it was true. It was horrifying. Horrifying. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (49:03)
So, um, I, we have never talked in this podcast about this, but um, recently I was thinking about the actor's nightmare and what you experienced was, was a nightmare. But what we're typically referring to when we say the actor's nightmare is the dream you have that you're and there's variations on it, but like you're supposed to go on stage and you don't know any of your lines or you can't, for some reason you can't get all the way on stage. And I don't know why it took me so long because I would have the stream for the 25 years. I had never acted. Um, so it took me all this time to, to link the way that that is just tied to your own life and your feeling of like being an imposter or you're feeling that you're ill prepared. And I'm just wondering if you guys still have dreams like that.
Speaker 5: (49:56)
I have the same dream. I have the dream where, where I, I finally got to the point of the dream where I say, it in the dream. I'm just going to make the up. Because before I would try to cram cram, cram and lobby backstage and finding someone's script with the highlighted script and like I'm crying. And then finally about a month ago I had one where I was like, you know what, this. I'm going to make this up. And it was so my God I'm so inspired. Go back to the scary dream. Me too,
Speaker 2: (50:29)
Just, I said, it. I'm going to make it up. I can't go through this anymore. I can't go through this. Like I literally would. My dream was like, I took control because I had him all the time.
Speaker 8: (50:38)
I just had that. I'm not no word of a lie last week where I was like, can I just borrow? Like, and it was like the Shakespeare style where they just had their lie. And I was like, maybe that'll just, Oh, I have that dream. And I never have pants on, or I'm always missing either assertive. I find always like trying to take some kind of towel and yes,
Speaker 5: (50:58)
Boss that is very encouraging that you had that dream. And I am going to try to like take that in such that if I find myself in the middle of that dream, I might be able to give myself that same advice. But it, I wonder for you, I bet it is really linked to this idea that you're having to write for yourself and which yeah. Which Sarah mentioned, you know, you're, you're saying you, you, now that you are now that you're ready to embrace your greatness, um, and you're maybe not going to find a bunch of roles ready-made, you're going to have to make it for yourself. Are you already,
Speaker 8: (51:36)
Uh, I am eight pages in, I mean, so it's funny. I've been, I, um, like I said, I'm trying to use my downtime, my, this pen Demi time, um, effectively. And so part of what I'm trying to do is not break myself constantly. So, you know, I got my final draft, I got my ideas and I've had all sorts of interesting things pop up over the past few months. So have I done as much writing as I intended to know, but is it something that I'm thinking about and actively trying to not stop myself from doing every day? Yes. And I think that that's the biggest hurdle I have to get over is like the part of me that thinks, well, I've got to get it right from between here and my fingers. It's got to get right. Then instead of like, maybe I should just bark out some really bad and see what happens.
Speaker 8: (52:18)
Um, and not worry. Cause I tend to stop that. Well, what happens after that? it. I'm done. And shortbread and sourdough. So I, um, I'm trying to get over that hurdle, but I am quite excited and enthusiastic and, and I've had other interesting things. I've had great distractions pop up in the past little bit. So I have sort of like, all right, so I'm going to shelf that and work on. And I'm just really working on, um, not panicking. I'm just realizing, you know, in terms of the dream of like, um, not succumbing to panic and anxiety and fear of what's next and trying to be a bit more present in this weird timeless time. I'm trying to be just a little more mindful and slow.
Speaker 2: (53:01)
Well, you, you see, I gotta be honest. You seem, you seem pretty, you know, knowing, knowing you, you seem pretty much [inaudible]. I know I
Speaker 8: (53:12)
Thank you. I appreciate that. Cause I really have, um, and it's also been hard to do to realize like, wait, I it's, I think part of it leads into that. Like if it doesn't hurt, it's not work, um, trying to surrender to like Sarah, your life doesn't have to be excruciating all the time and you don't have to be miserable or suffering. You can just be, and that's a piece of the work. And so I'm really trying as I sit here watching icicles mouth outside of my house, I'm really trying to appreciate and sit with that time who knows what will happen. And again, like, Ooh, what's going to happen as soon as I have to, but I'm really trying to be okay.
Speaker 2: (53:44)
What did about Cuckoo's nest? Because people are going to ask, how did that come? How, how was that? I mean, that was, that was, that was like a big, huge deal for people that don't know it was Sarah was wasn't Cuckoo's nest.
Speaker 8: (53:58)
It was super easy, pretty fun. Um, although again, not without its challenges. I, um, I auditioned like every other woman between the ages of, you know, 20 and 32 for this little walk on part. Um, and uh, hilariously, it came down to me and this woman, Jennifer Inkstrom, who's a marvelous actress. Um, and we, at the time we're roommates, we work at the same restaurant. We had the same agent and Oh, my Gary Sinise and Terry Kenny could not choose which one of us to cast. So they cast both of us. So we were double cast in a role. And every other night, one of us went on is Sandy. And the other one played the electroshock tech. I. You not. Um, and that's how that run. It was bananas. It makes, I mean, and to this day, people are like, what the?
Speaker 8: (54:52)
It was really weird. And I don't really understand what transpired behind the scenes at the end of the day. I think it was a wildly unfair thing to do to Jennifer and I, because for years it really, really with our friendship, especially when I ended up going to Broadway and she did, and it was really unfair. Not that it's going to come back and bite me in the. It was a really unfair situation to put us in, um, horribly. So, um, especially when they're like, so Sarah, when are you leaving Broadway? When's Jen coming. And I'm like, this is up to me. I mean, it was really, really weird night anyway, but it was marvelous and wonderful. And I was very lucky to do a number of shows at Steppenwolf and, um, work with just astoundingly, uh, generous people and not realize it at the time.
Speaker 8: (55:35)
I just thought, I don't think I, you know, some youth is wasted on the young. I didn't realize how great it was. Um, but it was awesome. I mean, I, I looked out in the audience one night and Paul Newman was looking at me and I was like, that's Paul Newman. I mean, it was just, it was banana cakes. It was, it was, it was, it was wonderful. And it was a, a really fun show. And, um, I can't believe it was, you know, 20 years ago that it closed. Um, but it was a, it was a good time. It was a good time. Yeah.
Speaker 2: (56:02)
I got, I got, who played, who played first ratchet.
Speaker 8: (56:05)
Amy Morton. Oh, nice. Amy Morton. Um, yeah, we had a,
Speaker 2: (56:12)
Okay. I just love that. I love the stories about people. I know.
Speaker 8: (56:16)
Oh, it was super fun. I got paid to make out with Gary. Like it was like,
Speaker 2: (56:22)
You know, yeah. And you, you know,
Speaker 5: (56:24)
We, we, when the, by the time this is all over, you may be part of a bygone era of Broadway. I mean, I was just having this discussion with a bunch of theater people last night. Is it going to come back? Is it going to be, I mean, the whole model, the whole financial model of it, it was so unsustainable, um, with packed houses and, you know, charging $400 a ticket. I can't imagine trying to make this work with any type of social distancing protocols.
Speaker 8: (56:53)
Yeah. And who the hell are they going to put in those seats to fill? I mean, like, who's going to be on Broadway. Do you know what I mean? Like gone are the actors not to be a Dick, but you know,
Speaker 5: (57:05)
No, no, it's totally true. I, they interesting. So speaking of plays, um, probably my most memorable theater school watching experience was raised in captivity. Oh my God. And, and, uh, it made me, it made me a Nicky silver fan. Yes. I mean, that play is so funny. And I have the experience of watching it, that I was laughing so hard and so loud and people around me were laughing too, but I felt like, no, no, you don't. This is the most brilliant thing I've ever heard. John Gunn trying to say, I'm working with the baby, I'm teaching the baby. It's the baby's about to walk. Oh, such a great play. It was Nick directed that, right? Yeah. Do you remember that experience? I wasn't in it myself,
Speaker 8: (58:09)
Laughing in the audience. I wasn't in it.
Speaker 5: (58:12)
I've been telling myself you were in my favorite play at the theater school. Maybe I'm combining two plays. Did you do another Nikki that you were in you?
Speaker 8: (58:22)
I mean, I could be hallucinating. No, I cause Susan Bennett, PJ powers, um, was Juliette and that like I wait, was there someone that wasn't that on it?
Speaker 5: (58:33)
Wait in a Tutu.
Speaker 8: (58:35)
It's not about being passed around like a, like a, like a candy dish of nuts or something like there's I remember that, that awesome.
Speaker 5: (58:42)
Maybe we're thinking of a different name of the prompt. Maybe they did to Batman and skirts. Did you do any Nicky silver plays at the theater school? No,
Speaker 8: (58:50)
That's with Nicky silver too, because I love language play. Like I just, I, um,
Speaker 5: (58:55)
No, this is the problem
Speaker 8: (58:59)
That I wasn't in that show. Cause I was like, Oh, better to do Nicky silver then. Yeah. I mean, I was like, I grumbled, I think I was doing some Irish play at the time about, I don't know if I did some Declan.
Speaker 5: (59:10)
It's so funny. I believe I've used this to disparate things into one flatter.
Speaker 8: (59:17)
I thought it was me. Cause that play was awesome. And I, I can see
Speaker 7: (59:22)
Myself in that classroom watching it and just being gobsmacked. It was like, you know,
Speaker 6: (59:27)
Two little flats and like a light bulb on the floor. Maybe we were sitting next to each other. And I remember, okay. So I'll, I'll
Speaker 2: (59:36)
Share with everybody that, um, we are doing a part two with Sarah Shera par because, because my audio unfortunately lost. Yeah. So, so I went back and I just listened to the part where you can only hear you and I talking to, to remind us what we were talking about, but I just being transparent about it. The audience, I mean the audio quality will never sound the same. So if you're listening to this, well, yes, it was recorded in two separate days, but I'm going to do my best to bring us back to the point in the conversation that we were at when we were so rudely interrupted by squad cast. So, um, w we were, we were talking about the shows you did, and you were talking about a show that you did with Joe slowish. Um, and then, uh, a story that I loved talking about the show you did, where you had to be CA you were wearing a beautiful gown, I think. And you had to be carrying Helen of Troy, Helen of Troy. Yeah. Tell us that story.
Speaker 7: (01:00:37)
I just remember being devastated cause David decimal shin had to carry me and I was like, Oh my God, he's going to know how fast, I mean, you know,
Speaker 6: (01:00:47)
Like I,
Speaker 7: (01:00:48)
I mean, I had such a crush on him. Um, hi David, uh, as did everyone as did everyone now. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: (01:00:55)
Me and it precluded you.
Speaker 2: (01:00:58)
What we were talking about is how it precluded you and things like that, or can so easily preclude us from focusing on the thing that would actually make the memory good. And the experience enjoyable. Like I'm on stage at a beautiful venerated Chicago theater, and I am getting to play this amazing part and I'm getting to do something that I love instead. We're, we're focused on the thing that you worry about what you ate last night.
Speaker 7: (01:01:26)
It's not really being in the moment. That's not being in the essential moment there that's not the Colonel one wants to clean to, for sure.
Speaker 2: (01:01:34)
Definitely not. Definitely. If you were in that position today, how do you think you'd be?
Speaker 6: (01:01:40)
I think regrettably,
Speaker 7: (01:01:44)
Well, yeah, I'm a bit in that position every day. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm very, I, it's funny. I, um, uh, recently in this universe, uh, Oh, I apologize. There's some kind of siren happening. Um, recently in this universe of, um, zoom auditions, uh, has been a really eye-opening and a horrifying experience, but illuminating about certain things. And that is that, Oh, I am now back at a place where I'm have to relearn how to not focus on myself in an audition. Right. So because, um, all of a sudden you can see yourself in the corner can see that little piece and try not to be. So I, I thought mistakenly, um, as of late, I was in this groovy Headspace and I was ready to go and it's all about the work. And then the second I could, I was like, Oh God it.
Speaker 7: (01:02:31)
There you are. And right in front of you, are you and all of your insecurities. Um, and I was, uh, both reassured and disappointed by the fact that I still have the same, the same struggle as a performer to get out of my own way and to get out of my head and stop looking at myself in the moment. And I just had the same experience I had to watch myself. I was on, I saw myself on TV last week and everyone's gathered around the TV and it's like, Ooh, you're on that show. And how exciting. And all I saw were chins. All I saw were, and I remember the day I'm thinking, he looked great. You feel great. You should be confident now, focus on your work. And then I get to watch my work and all I'm all I'm seeing are, wow, that's a really bad sweater. And boy, you know, so it's hard. It's hard to not. Um, I think I focus on it. I try to actively focus on it less. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of like trying to, it's like trying to play a negative intention. I will not, not do.
Speaker 2: (01:03:25)
Right. Right. Right. Well, the, probably the biggest difference though, is that, you know, that you're doing that now and you know, that it robs you of something that's joyful and you're trying, and you, you know, I think having the desire to get to the place where you can like, just live your life and appreciation for it instead of monitoring your life or how other people are appreciating you. Yeah.
Speaker 7: (01:03:45)
Yes. And to appreciate the, I mean, so in a way back to that show, my, my goal doing when I shot that show was like, Sarah, you're going to enjoy this experience. You're not going to go home after three days of shooting going. I don't know what happened because I wasn't there. So do I feel like I was able to do that at least 60% of the time? Yes. Which is a big win, right? Like I was like, I was able to have fun being on set and working and focusing on the work rather than worrying about, are they going to fire me? Am I going to get kicked off? And I didn't lose 40 pounds last week. So that was good. That was good to be able to, what was the show? The, uh, the Chicago fire. Um,
Speaker 2: (01:04:26)
Okay. It's about the it's about the department.
Speaker 7: (01:04:29)
Is it, is the, it is the fire show of America. Yes, it was. Yes. It was really fun. It was actually super good to, and it was super rewarding because I got to work with a student who I, it was his first job on camera. We had our scene together, a female director that I had worked with before, and it was written by a woman and a woman of color. So it was like the most amazing, like I was so
Speaker 2: (01:04:51)
19 year old, you had seen that you would have been like, Whoa, what happens?
Speaker 7: (01:04:55)
It was so excited and happy. And while Chicago fire might not be the pinnacle of the acting I'd like to do, it was, I'm super proud that I was a part of that episode. That was,
Speaker 2: (01:05:04)
And it also sounds like, you know, I sounds like you've made progress in terms of how you're going to be with yourself while you're on set or while you're doing. And that's, for me, I'm like going for progress. Like,
Speaker 3: (01:05:18)
And so it's hearing that is very encouraging to me because it means that we can make progress. We may not. And, and, you know, I've heard people talk like bill Hader, from seminary, live talking about his anxiety and talking about how you may not make friends with your anxiety, but at least, you know how to exist with it in the same room without trying to actively strangle it all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 7: (01:05:39)
A thousand percent, a thousand percent. I mean, I was just talking about this very thing in therapy the other day about like my anxiety hasn't gone away, but I've made space for it where it doesn't overwhelm me. It doesn't consume the moment. It's like, Oh, we're going to be in the room together. Okay. Could you please stay over there for five minutes? And I, um, it is a very different experience is I, and I, you know, back to that, like zoom audition thing, I had a zoom call back the other day, which was of course, very heightened, stressful, blah, blah, blah thing. And the director was intimidating to say the least and difficult to understand. And it was like that exercise of in real time, looking at yourself in this camera, watching them, trying to separate myself from my anxiety, um, and, and participate in the moment without immediately leaping to, um, allowing myself to be triggered by, by, by situations, in a way that normally my anxiety would just take over, um, uh, is a very, and I think so much of it is about, I mean, you go back to like what you learned, but like breathing and taking a minute to be, I'm going to tell you that, that actor, impulse of like, they give you a note and go, yep.
Speaker 7: (01:06:46)
Yep, yep. Got it. Got it. Got it. Instead of being like, hold on, I'm going to take a breath. I'm going to think, and then I'm going to say, yes. You know, like let's forgo the impulse to say yes immediately. Let's take a second. And I, so I think, um, back to the point of learning, yeah. Like my progress is actually I think taking time to actually let myself get to the moment it's like so easy when I'm directing people to say like, don't rush the moment. Don't rush the moment arrive there. I'm trying to just arrive. I'm trying to get my time, my guys all the time to arrive a little more, which is hard. Right.
Speaker 3: (01:07:21)
Did you say it was a student like a DePaul?
Speaker 7: (01:07:24)
Um, he was from U of I U by Chicago. And I taught there, um, for a number of years, I taught like their on-camera their senior year, like prepping them for their showcase on camera class. So I had taught him a number of years ago and it was so he was so lovely and I was so thrilled for him. And he talked about his audition with me and he's like, I taped it with this other guy, Sam, who was in class. And he's like, I kept saying, Sam, Sarah would say, you know, find the texture in it, make it different. Like, so he was like, you got me this job. He's like, you helped me. It was so thrilling. And then I went to the director. I'm like, it's Hayden's first time on camera. Like it was so thrilling. It was so fun. And I, because I was so focused on taking care of him, I wasn't worried about myself. Like it was really like the universe conspired to make sure I got up
Speaker 3: (01:08:05)
Whenever I'm on a, whenever I'm on a plane and I hate to fly and I'm with someone that's more scared than I am next to me. I become the world's greatest flyer. Like we've got this, we got the test. Totally, totally.
Speaker 5: (01:08:20)
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Love that. So the other thing that we were talking about, um, was the showcase and you had started off by saying, and I think this is a good, this is a good way of saying no, you said, because we've had a lot of we've, we've talked a lot about our audition teacher on camera teacher and we usually bleep per name. Um, and you would, but you had said it in just the loveliest way, which is like, I just wasn't for her, you know, I just wasn't her cup of tea, whatever. Um, so that being said, you did have some interest when you went to LA in the showcases. So tell us about it.
Speaker 7: (01:09:08)
I mean, I, it's funny, I think I might've talked about this before. I'm currently doing the same thing where I'm T I'm teaching, I'm organizing and teaching another school's final class for their showcase. So I'm, I'm dealing with a lot of kids and it's not that I'm playing favorites, but there are a number of them where I'm like, I get it. I know you've been playing 50 your whole life and you're 21. So I feel very close to that moment of what am I going to do to show who I am? I'm like, I have no idea of who I am. I've been everyone's grandmother, my entire career, little dyno for the next 20 years. I'd just play horse. Cause that's what, you know, that's what 25 year old women do. Um, regrettably. But so there was that struggle, right? Like preparing for that, that exit moment.
Speaker 7: (01:09:54)
And then we went to the showcase and we all got a plane and went to LA and bought, you know, the right color blue shirt to make your eyes pop and thought you're going to change your life. And, and I did have, I was fortunate. I did have some interest, but I always felt like anytime I was in any of those rooms, whether it was meeting with agents here in Chicago or, um, doing the showcases in LA, it was this feeling of people looking at me like, huh, what am I going to do with you? Exactly. You know what I mean? So I remember, um, being on the plane, flying back, Chicago, just bawling my eyes out, thinking this is never going to happen. Wow. It was. And I had that reaction. I had that reaction, [inaudible]
Speaker 3: (01:10:40)
Say before, before we so rudely, what I wanted to say is that it is, um, things are stacked against us when we walk in that room. And I think it takes a very, um, special human or a human that is not 22 to say, I am what you want, even though you don't make me, don't know that you want it. I'm going to, it's a lot of work to do that. So it's a lot of work to internally. Do that work to say, no, no, I'm going to walk into a room that may be kind of hostile, but I'm to turn it around
Speaker 5: (01:11:14)
And make, you know, it's hard to do that.
Speaker 7: (01:11:17)
Yes, absolutely. And I always go back to like, why is it that so many models make good TV and film actors? And I don't think it's because they're dumb. And I don't think is because they're just pretty, I think, because they're so used to being like, this is what I look like, take it or leave it. Whereas I spent so many years going, this is what I look like. I'm sorry, this is what I look like, but I'm really good on the inside. And it's like, um,
Speaker 5: (01:11:40)
What if, what if like one major component of theater school could have been simply this like very intense work on radical self-acceptance and like, you know, like even to the exclusion of yoga, let's say even I love to doing yoga. And I think yoga is great, but like the idea being, if, what if we paid, we joke about it now I'm joking about it in a way. But like, what if we actually paid attention since we know that this is what happens and we're not treading any new territory or people in any of these episodes, we're talking about things that haven't been talked about a million times, that probably people have talked about it a million times, but they still need to be talked about because it's still not, it's still not quite synced up in the right way. What if there was a radical shift and people could anticipate that this is a problem.
Speaker 5: (01:12:35)
You, you, you, you said this last time, Sarah, that's one of the parts that we couldn't, it got caught off is that we choose this profession that will definitely not fill up the God-sized hole inside of us. But yet almost to a person who goes into this is somebody who has a God sized hole who is so sort of uniquely sensitive, sensitive is not the right word, but it's the only word I can come up with. Like, so uniquely primed to be destroyed emotionally by something that's going to happen to them in this business. We know this is not an unknown thing. Why can't they actively address that in theater training?
Speaker 7: (01:13:24)
Well, I think because I mean, to be perfectly honest, I think a lot of it is they've got to keep themselves in business, right? You have to believe there is a person in that building. Who's going to tell you your going to make it in order to shuck out 20 grand a year. I mean, I really, part of me really believes this kind of cynically, but I believe like you, I think every one of us to a certain degree, tried to find that teacher that made you feel like you were going to make it, to find that teacher that made you feel like you were enough that you, Oh, wait, it's this weird kind of corner of the room. Am I special? I just need one person to tell me I'm special. Do you know what I mean? And so I think that, um, it is a business and it is an, and who the hell are these people to tell us that we're enough.
Speaker 7: (01:14:08)
And at the end of the day, great, one person going to tell you are enough for that job. And then that job is done. And then what, so yes, I agree with what you're saying that you need to have. There should be a core of radical self acceptance because no job is going to sustain you. No job is going to take you through through enough or God forbid, you know, you're one of the, and I've got several friends that have had amazing careers and had great jobs and they're miserable because they got stuck playing a part, their whole life that wasn't fulfilling for them. You know? So it can't be about the job. It's gotta be about what you want to do in the work. And it is such a weird, um, unlike, and I would say, unlike any other profession, I'm not going to make that grandiose of a statement.
Speaker 7: (01:14:49)
I'm just too stoned to come up with a better word. But, um, you're so vulnerable in this craft because everyone has to give you permission to do it, right? So you are always asking for permission, but at the same time, you're asked to believe in yourself enough to keep going without needing that approval. You know what I mean? It's like this instant, like Jesus Christ when, and which is why, you know, which is why we're so lucky that we have these incredible people now that are creating shows that are unlike anything else. Um, you know, like Mikayla Cole or, Oh God, who's that crazy Australian guy that I love. I can't think of it now. Or you're Hannah, Gadsby's your people where it's like, no one was going to give them a platform before, until they gave themselves their own platform. And now we see these crazy, beautiful, authentic stories, which no one could grant permission to that other than them.
Speaker 7: (01:15:37)
Right. Cause they're singular voices. They're just incredible singular voices. Um, and so I think there's being there's space being made. But when I think of the world, that, that we came up in where it is like, who am I going to play in Midsummer night's dream in which checkoff play am I going to be in, in which you know, for, to make it really re reductive, but like which white man's story do I fit into to, to show that I'm good enough. Cause if I'm not knowledge new and I'm not someone's mother, then I don't have any place in this world. And I think that's how a lot of people end up feeling coming out of theater school or being in theater schools. Like I have no place in this world because of these 20 plays that we're doing in the four years that I'm here.
Speaker 7: (01:16:14)
I don't get to play, I don't get a juicy role, but you know what I'm saying? It just becomes, and that's one thing I didn't realize. It's funny. Cause we were talking a lot about how the past year has really influenced a lot of our thinking. It's like, that's one thing that I've really kind of had an eye-opening experience with like how small my education was in terms of the stories that you think, well, these nice stories we get to tell, so I better fit into them. You know, I think, um, it's been a great, uh, kind of, um, envelope opening or an explosion for us to think more, um, not even inclusively, but just, uh, I mean, not just inclusively, but like in this kind of like we can tell any stories we want. Yeah. You know, and we didn't have that before. I don't think
Speaker 2: (01:16:56)
It never ceases to amaze me that whenever my mind is opened to a new reality that I didn't know existed previously because of my small education and my small, my, you know, specific life. It never ceases to amaze me. Oh, still. I mean, and now I can say in my future, I'm going to have multiple more moments of, Oh, there's this thing I didn't understand about the world and the variety of stories. And then there's, you know, it's like the universe, the multi-verse is infinite. And so is the, um, so is the range of human experience. Yes. And I, I, and I agree that going back to, um, I think, you know, teaching radical self-acceptance is, is key and it, it probably wouldn't do enough, but it would at least start a conversation. And who knows, maybe they're starting it. I don't know. But I, I definitely agree that with that, what I'm seeing in my DePaul students now is that that is so needed in an, in an authentic way to, to, and yet at 22 radically accepted yourself is excrutiatingly hard to do
Speaker 7: (01:18:11)
Well. And it's also, I mean, I don't know, everyone's not the same. Right. But like, did I know who I was in claps when I was 22? I don't know. I mean, do I feel now at, for her, for whatever, do I feel now at 50? Like I'm any different than I was 15? No,
Speaker 6: (01:18:30)
God, this is like,
Speaker 7: (01:18:33)
I'm the same person I'm just accepted it. Right. So, um, I think, I think it is a weird time. I think it is, it is in people developing change and settle into themselves at very, very, very different times. And people have radically different experiences in terms of when they're allowed to accept themselves and let them let them let themselves into the room. Um, but I do think that teaching teaching that you're enough is really important in so much of school in general theater school. Any school is, uh, you know, um, if you go to med school, you take a test and know that you're enough. And in theater school, you don't really have that test, but you're still trying to find out that you're enough. So it is a very weird subjective world where you're still trying to prove yourself. Um, and it is hard to tell people to prove themselves while at the same time, just be you it's really hard. And you're just figuring out what you is, right. I mean,
Speaker 6: (01:19:31)
Sorry about that. Hey, I
Speaker 2: (01:19:34)
Was like, do I have a dog?
Speaker 7: (01:19:36)
Um, Lester is expressing himself as authentic. Um,
Speaker 2: (01:19:41)
So already believes in himself.
Speaker 7: (01:19:44)
He has never lacked ever, never lacked in that department. He knows he's he has seven pounds of me. He is mighty
Speaker 6: (01:19:53)
The last hole.
Speaker 7: (01:19:54)
Um, so you know what I mean? I just, it's, it's just very hard. I think it's, uh, but yeah, you've got to be willing. I, you know, that's the hard thing. It's the willingness you, you are, it is a demanded of you to bring your entire self to the job every single day in a way that other jobs don't ask you to and to ask someone, to learn and train at this and do that and figure out what your pelvic clock is and realize that you've been breathing wrong your entire life and find out what I am at pentameter is, and be your authentic self at 19 is a lot. So it's, it's, it's, it's no, I'm surprised that you're making a podcast now about that time, because it's a really ugly, gross pot stirring, triggering maelstrom of feelings. That was great. That's a great quote. So Sarah, um, where can people find you besides on Chicago fire? Are you on social media? I'm on the social medias. Um, found me sweet Tate, uh, um, Monash, but I am, um, at full lunch cause my mother has a Boston accent and it's a big joke in our family. What are you going to have full lunch
Speaker 1: (01:21:10)
On the social medias? Um, if you liked what you heard today, please rate, review and subscribe seriously. Please do those things. Cause it really helps. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc podcast. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina fleet are the cohost. This episode was produced, edited and sound mix by Gina Felicia. For more information about us, you can find us on social media or through our website@undeniablewriters.com. Thanks.
Intro: licking the ground to lose weight
Let Me Run This By You: spin class, check on your cheery friends, too
IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU LOVE IS STRUGGLING WITH ADDICTION, PLEASE CALL* 1-800-662-HELP (4357) OR VISIT THE SAMHSA WEBSITE
Interview**: We talk to Nik Whitcomb about Nebraska, the Rose Theatre, and working in a truly collaborative fashion.
Intro: tracking the weather, gardening, unhelpful aphorisms.
Let Me Run This By You: memory
Interview: We talk to Paul Holmquist about making a difference through teaching, learning Laban Movement Analysis, and making career moves in theatre. Plus, a truly horrifying story.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? How are you?
Speaker 2: (00:32)
Good. How are you? I'm pretty good. I mean, yeah. I'm I'm the Midwest is going snow. Are you getting snow today? Oh, don't. Oh God. Don't tell me good Lord above. Oh, hell Jesus. Um, I mean, I can not let me put it out into the universe. I cannot handle that. I cannot. Yeah, we're just going to put it out there. Nope, Nope. Nope. It's a big part path. I feel, I feel, um, I feel interested. I'm interested in that. You can, you can be. Yes. You can have a curiosity, curiosity, but I'm not, but I don't want it for the East coast, but just the Midwest, like a lot of stuff. I don't know, like wintery mix is how they put it.
Speaker 2: (01:33)
Okay. You keep tabs on the weather in Chicago. Yeah, because I'm, I'm really, I have to like really pump myself up that I moved. Like, it helps me to feel like I made the right choice. That's interesting. And um, my people in my family do that people in my family, like every once in a while, every once in a while my mom would call and she'll be like, she'll tell me, she'll say like, is it snowing there? And I'm like, what? She, yeah, every morning my family is obsessed with the weather. Yes I can. My cousin Roxie, she gets all the radars and she's tracking and she knows exactly what's coming this way. I mean, she should be a meteorologist frankly. She totally should have her own show on YouTube. She's a she's. So on top of the weather and my whole family is like that.
Speaker 2: (02:23)
I think it might be. I mean, it makes sense like that, that would have been handed down if, if it were from farmers, you know, like that would, it wouldn't be a big deal to like being to the weather. I that's like my favorite. Um, the only thing, well, not the only thing, but there was, when I went to, after my dad died, I went to the partial hospitalization program, um, in Highland park hospital. And um, in that time I had a bunch of therapists and some of them were horrible. And what, but one this one young and now looking
Speaker 3: (03:00)
Back, they were young as hell. There were young therapists and they were probably like, what? In the, uh, anyway, this one therapist said it was a gloomy day. It was a spring gloom or like summer gloomy day. And everyone was like, Oh, this weather. And he said, you know, I just have this story. You know, whenever I, whenever I have the glooms and I feel like, and at the time I thought he was a P an idiot, but he said, when it's I had planned to go to the beach today after our therapy. Right. But now I can't go to the beach and I was just thinking, it reminds me like somewhere I'm, I'm off and depressed and somewhere there's a farmer. That's rejoicing because his life is saved. Oh,
Speaker 2: (03:44)
Wow. Oh, wow. And
Speaker 3: (03:46)
I was like, it's great
Speaker 2: (03:48)
Perspective later.
Speaker 3: (03:51)
I was like, Oh my God, that is so deep. And this farmer is like dancing because his farm is saved. And I'm like, but you know, and it's not to diminish anyone's pain, but it's also just perspective. Like you said, like perspective somewhere, someone is happy and falling in love for the first time or somewhere, you know, like,
Speaker 2: (04:10)
Absolutely. And for some reason that also just reminds me of maybe just because talking about Chicago when I was an intern, social work school intern at Northwestern, inpatient, psychiatric, the thick people who worked that, I mean, people who work in psych hospitals are so interesting. Especially if they've been working there for a really long time and this, uh, OT, occupational therapist, guy, Fred Mahaffey. If you're out there, Fred, I love you. You taught me so much. Um, he, he's the person who introduced me to DBT. Um, and I was sitting in his group and he came in and he said, I just got a very upsetting, or I got a very troubling phone call, but I couldn't get into it because I have this group. And so right now, the thing I'm going to practice is, I can't know until I know
Speaker 3: (05:06)
Fred, you're amazing.
Speaker 2: (05:08)
Right? I mean, I think about that all the time. You can't know until, you know, which is really so much about worry and anxiety. It's all this worry about the things that we don't know. And sometimes that's appropriate sometimes. Yeah. You should be worried because something terrible is going to happen. And other times you just waste all of the in-between and then it turns out to be nothing. And you've just been tied up in knots for no reason.
Speaker 3: (05:32)
I am. The more, the older I get, the more I'm I sort of, um, am drawn to, um, Tibetan, Buddhism. And I am reading, I read it every couple years. I read Pema childrens when things fall apart, heart advice for hard times or difficult times. It's brilliant. It's it's saving me in terms of, it goes beyond just don't strangle your hustle. It goes beyond that into life. Has you licked life when life has you licked when you're licked, there is no hope. And that is truly where the new beginning begins. Oh, wow. I can get on board with that because when I, it reminds me of, and they talk a lot about, uh, she talks, Pema talks a lot about, and I'm sure she's not the only one, obviously in Buddhism. Groundlessness how we are. We are grasping for the ground at all times. And there is no ground.
Speaker 3: (06:33)
Now look, if you're in acute psychiatric distress, this is not a helpful book because it is, I'm not saying that, but if you have some perspective, like we're saying, if you have like, I have, I'm not in acute psychiatric distress, praise God. Um, but once, once you can get stepped back a little bit and see, Oh my, my addiction to hope my addiction to things are going to get better is actually, might not actually be helping me as much as I think that it is. Um, when I'm licked in my life, when I, when life has nailed me is true. And I can admit it is truly when I begin to settle in and good things happen in my life. It's just every time. Wow. Which is why 12 step programs work. Absolutely. Yeah. That's
Speaker 4: (07:28)
Notion of like clinging always to hope. That's very interesting. I remember this patient. I encountered also when I was in training, I think it was also at Northwestern. I think looking back, she had like low IQ, you know, if you have low IQ and personality disorder, that's a tough combo because a lot of the what's necessary for healing personality disorders, like a great understanding of what you're doing and how she's just so sweet in a way she'd come in. And she had all these aphorisms, she was, and I just got to keep the hope alive and I just got it. And I just got it's tomorrow's another day. And you know, and I w I always pictured her like a leaky bucket. Cause she'd get all filled up, you know, in this group with everything she needed. And then it's like, the minute she passed the threshold of the door, it all just leaked. Right.
Speaker 3: (08:28)
Oh my God.
Speaker 4: (08:29)
And I remember thinking like, maybe all these positive messages are actually really not helping her. Cause it's, it's, it's giving a, I don't want to say it's a false hope, but it's like, and I hate this and I've said this on the podcast before. So I apologize for repeating myself, but I hate the good vibes. Only no bad days crew, because it's so unrealistic. And it makes people paradoxically so much more.
Speaker 3: (08:57)
And I think it makes them enraged. So I think the under for me, what usually yeah, under and under rage is extreme for me is extreme sadness and hopelessness. And, but the rage that comes up w with, you know, life is good. Crew is like, when people don't jive with it, because it's like, if life is good, then dot, dot, dot, wired children murdered. If life is good, then why are police killing? You know, like what are you talking about? And I think that's a spiritual bypass people do.
Speaker 4: (09:32)
So if I'm going to make an inspirational mug, mine is going to say, life is good dot, dot dot sometimes because it is good sometimes. And then on the other side, life is bad dot, dot, dot. Sometimes like the point is you take the good, when you can get it,
Speaker 3: (09:51)
[inaudible] burn out. I loved that show. My God loved it.
Speaker 4: (10:02)
2d on roller skates. I lived and died by T I w I roller skated because her,
Speaker 3: (10:08)
I was going to say, is that part of your cause you're a roller skater. Yeah. Uh, I was a big Joe fan,
Speaker 4: (10:14)
Joe. Aha. Yeah, she was cool. She was cool. Hated Blair. Of course,
Speaker 3: (10:17)
Most people did, Natalie. I felt bad for her
Speaker 4: (10:22)
For Natalie too. I kind of felt like she wanted her to get off.
Speaker 3: (10:27)
She was a trope. You know, she was a sad, sad truck. Well, I have been accepted as, uh, an official member of the Myrtle tree climate action team. [inaudible]
Speaker 4: (10:41)
The name of the group that does your CSA or your, whatever, your
Speaker 3: (10:45)
It's, the Myrtle tree cafe. They that's where they used to meet before COVID Myrtle. I think put, forgive me. If I say this wrong, a Myrtle tree cafe, climate action team. It's amazing. We're superheroes. That's a crazy, like I'm an official member. So I get a key and an orientation Wednesday, I'm telling you that gardening has really changed and changed my life in terms of my health and, and feeling like I'm doing something for the planet, both it's crazy. It's just gardening. It's not like I'm, you know,
Speaker 4: (11:24)
But that's what they say. Little acts are revolutionary. Like just being responsible for like learn, learn, even just learning where all your food comes from. And like, that's, that's a smaller
Speaker 3: (11:36)
Food came from. McDonald's like, I literally thought that that McDonald's was the food source, you know, or Jack in the box. That's not actually what it is. I was going to ask you, what are you going to grow? That's my question for you. Uh, we have
Speaker 4: (11:54)
Some debates about the things to grow. And mostly I was doing this. I was picking things out with my oldest son and he, he was actually being quite logical about it. He, I wanted to get kale and co and he was like, mom, nobody likes kale, including you, which is really true. And you're the only person who likes Brussels sprouts. And you're the only person who likes cauliflower. Let's get broccoli and bell pepper. And he loves hot things. So we got some jalapenos. And so we got a broccoli, a jalapeno, a bell pepper. And then we have, um, uh, my daughter has, she was really into the seeds thing. She got like a lunch and I don't feel, I feel like none of them are gonna work out, but she got some flowers and
Speaker 3: (12:50)
Some flowers might they're super hearty. Some flowers might come up and last for about 45 years. So just sunflowers are hurting.
Speaker 4: (13:00)
You have a great spot for sunflower. So that'd be great. So anyway, so we're just starting like easy peasy because you know, we don't, we've never done it before and we're not sure how it's going to go. So that is one to invest a bunch of money in something
Speaker 3: (13:12)
We'll do that. And if you have pests that are non, uh, this is so interesting to me when you have like aphids or inch worms or stuff like that. A lot of times, not all the times, I'm learning a lot of times, it means that your soil health is in jeopardy, not the actual plant. This is crazy. So a lot of times pest the TAC plants that aren't doing so well. Anyway, it's so crazy. I never knew that. I thought, Oh, they attack it because they're. Well, no, they might be, there might be an occasional inchworm, you know, like a Trump worm. But, but, but a lot of times pest can tell when the plant, the soil,
Speaker 4: (13:55)
I'm carrying around a semi with a bit to pay or whatever,
Speaker 3: (14:02)
There's our chick there's McDonald's McFlurry in one hand. Um, there's our kids show right there. Let me run this by you.
Speaker 4: (14:23)
I have a thing to talk to you about that is, um, it's kind of a bummer and I'm feeling good. I'm not sure if I should bring it up, but maybe I'll try to have a new perspective about it. Okay. I've had a couple memory slips that have been troubling.
Speaker 3: (14:42)
Oh, tell me all about, it
Speaker 4: (14:45)
Was one moment. I just couldn't remember my passcode to my phone. Okay. It came to me a couple of hours later. Okay. But I thought it was this one thing, and then it was Aaron had my phone and he's like, what's your passcode? And I, and I give him this passcode that doesn't work in it. And I'm like, Oh, well, maybe it's. And then all of a sudden it just like vanished. And I really started freaking out, like, yes, I freaked freaking out because, and I think, I think this might be something I inherited from my mother is very concerned about losing her memory. This is like her biggest fear. So whenever she forgets something, she panics and to the point that I feel she doesn't allow for any just normal forgetting of things, which I haven't had that problem berating myself for the normal forgetting things.
Speaker 4: (15:44)
But that passcode thing freaking like, it just, it just was gone. It was there. And then it was gone. That was one. And the other thing I'm probably going to have a hard time remembering. Um, no, I think actually there, isn't another thing like that. It's just more that I, it's just more that I, you know, because kids have great memories and my kids are constantly telling me, remember when we, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, ah, thankfully I really did. We, did we do that? Is that normal? Or should I start my Gingko biloba? I do so many, a word puzzle. I should have good brains.
Speaker 3: (16:19)
So what, the first thing that comes to mind is that I know, okay, this podcast right. Is bringing up a lot of memories for people, for us and for people. Okay. I believe that sometimes trauma stored when it comes out or even, even, even all this we're, we're taking in other people's trauma too. Right. That's true. So your mind can only hold so much. So I'm wondering if that also is a response to an overload of other your, and you do all the editing. You do every, you listen and listen. So you're taking it in over and over again. And the, and people were traumatized, you know, not everybody, but a lot of people that we talked to have been traumatized by their experience. So, uh, in college and so, and subsequent and what it meant and all that. So I'm wondering if you're partially it is just a trauma re a response to a lot of information going into your brain. Um,
Speaker 4: (17:32)
It could be, and as a, as a mother, I do have to remember so many. I mean, honestly, the landscape of what I have to remember is it's astounding. Um, and, and people do say that there's like a fog of motherhood that, you know, you never, you never get it back, but you have an excellent memory. You have an excellent short-term memory. Well, your long-term though. You've struggled to remember things about
Speaker 3: (17:59)
I never, no, I also never remember your birthday to save my life. Now I have it in my phone. Like, it's just so weird. And it's not just your birthday. I don't remember people. People will tell me my birthday is September 22nd. And I'm like, no, no, it's not. I went so no. So my memory, my memory, I also don't have children, but also, um, I know that, okay. So when my, when my father was dying in the hospital, my memory, I couldn't remember where I parked ever. When I would go visit him at the hospital, I would be sobbing, wandering around the parking lot until one came to pick me up in a little cart and drove me. And he said, the guy said it happens all the time with people visiting loved ones in the hospital, because they're so traumatized. They never remember where they parked, even though I would re I would like, I didn't even write it down, you know? Cause I was so wigged out, but I would say C 14, C four, or whatever it is and no memory after I would visit my father in the ICU. So I just think trauma and, um, or just
Speaker 4: (19:10)
Even upsetting feelings can
Speaker 3: (19:13)
Overload, um, listening to other people's stuff. It's it's our brains are not that big. If you think about it's like we have a super, I mean, you know, there's a lot there's and we only use, they say part of it, but I would venture to say, we use more than they say. Um,
Speaker 4: (19:28)
Yes. I recently read that that's a myth. It's not true that we use 10% of our abuse, all of our brains. I mean, which is not to say that you can, I think what that myth comes from is like, you can expand your, you can flex your muscle, your, the muscle of your brain, you can strengthen it or weaken it. Um, which is why I'm like addicted to doing all these little puzzles.
Speaker 3: (19:51)
Yeah. I mean, I know that it's scary. So then it's scary. So I had a similar thing where when we came back from, I would have sworn that my code to the locker was we have a locker that has stores are male. It's like, it's really great package lacquer. And I just couldn't for the mine was more like, I just knew in my head it was a number. And so I kept entering it and it was like, no, no, no. And I was like, well, something must be wrong with this machine. I had the wrong number the whole time, but I was convinced that it was this one number. And I'm like, and anyway, I was dumbfounded when I found out it was really this other number. I was like,
Speaker 4: (20:29)
Yeah. I mean, I, I, now that we're talking about it, I, I do think it's normal, but it's also about aging. It's really hard to separate out. Oh, hang on. My phone is ringing. It's really hard to separate out the things that we should be worried versus the things that are normal. Right.
Speaker 3: (20:50)
Bought it with my ticker. I'm like, Oh my gosh. You know? And my, my cardiologist is not that worried, but then I get worried. It's just, um, you hit, this is what my in the hospital, what they told me, you hit 40, between 40 and 50. And the check engine light comes on 90% more than it ever does. And you're like, what is happening in what? And, and really what, we're, what I'm asking. Anyway, when I ask these questions of doctors and things is when am I going to die? Am I going to die? Is this going to kill me? And it's not, I'm not like we talk about, I'm not petrified of death. What I'm petrified of is losing control. Right? So I'm really asking, is this going to be something I have no control over? And like at any moment is some weird stuff going to happen to me. And the answer is maybe they don't know, but they, they know more than we do use because of all the schooling and the, and the research. But they, no one can tell you exactly when you're going to die.
Speaker 4: (21:50)
Dare I say, we can't know until we know always looking to land that plane right back and forth today,
Speaker 3: (22:03)
I'll tell you about my poop in the backyard story. All right. I was a latchkey kid, as a lot of us were. And my mom was a working mom who, who was very, very type a at times and mean at times. And, uh, woes talks about that. And Lee left my key, lost my key or left it at school or something came home. No key, no way. I was going to walk to my mom's office, which was only eight blocks away because I was petrified because I left my key. I was just going to wait until someone got home. Pretend I had just walked home. It was a whole orchestrated thing app. But then I had to go to the bathroom number two. And I was like, Oh no, what do you do? So a normal person might go to the neighbor's house. Who might, by the way, might've had a key and said, can I use your bathroom?
Speaker 3: (22:56)
But I was so embarrassed that I had to poop that I didn't. So then I'm waiting and I'm like, I got poop. So then I tried to break in the house by pulling screens out of the basement and I break a window and I'm like, Oh my God. Gosh. So it just, anyway, I ended up pooping in the backyard. Okay. This is rough pooping in the backyard doing my business. It was a whole situation. Uh, and then someone came home and I, I, my, I did my plan as a plan. Right. And did your scene, did my scene? It worked out, people were received really convinced. Don't ask me any of the technical stuff about the pooping, but anyway, so the point not that you were going to, but the, the, the point is then in the middle we're we're having, uh, a fine evening. And then I hear my mom's screaming in the basement. Oh no. She's like someone tried to break in and I don't say anything. This is the thing about fear and shame. I say nothing. They call the police.
Speaker 4: (24:03)
No. Oh dear. Uh, Oh, this is not good.
Speaker 3: (24:07)
He's come. And they're like, and I'm petrified. They're going to dust for prints. And then match as only a child who was obsessed with true crime. This was right around the time of America's most wanted and uncle mysteries. And I'm like, Oh my God, how do I get off my fingerprints? I didn't go down that road. I didn't cut myself or hurt myself in any way. Other than my pride and shame, the police are like, well, it, yeah, it looks like someone may have tried to break in, but so then, but they left, but then it didn't end there in the middle of the night, I set my alarm and I went down into the basement and I took the glass, the remaining glass, and I walked three blocks and put it in someone else's garbage so that they could never find my prints again.
Speaker 3: (25:03)
So I was telling this to a friend and they were like, Whoa, we were unpacking it. And I guess the thing is, I was so ashamed. It was so I was so ashamed of the mom thing, but it manifested in the poop thing. And like, just ashamed that I had needs of any kind or that I would make a mistake or forget something that I went to such lengths to cover it up. And I just, I think we do these things and it just reminds me of like, you know what we always say on this podcast, which is like, you know, it's better to just own up, but when you're a kid and you feel like you're going to die or something terrible is going to happen to you, if you, if you own up to your mistake, you go through such lengths. And I just am not willing to go through those lengths anymore. I just can't do it. I just, it's not worth it. And one of the things
Speaker 4: (25:56)
Is that we've learned from the people who have almost come on the podcast, but then ultimately said, I can't, it's too painful. Um, we've often had the experience that those people seemed perfectly happy, go lucky, et cetera. So, so, so we, as humans are constantly berating ourselves, like you say, for having needs, for having bad experiences, to the point that we won't share with anybody that we're having a bad experience, which of course makes us feel worse, more lonely, more isolated, more helpless, more hopeless. Um, so that,
Speaker 3: (26:37)
You know, it's almost like
Speaker 4: (26:39)
The dam, the dam breaks you, you, you can only shove or, or the image of the closet. You can only shove so many things in the closet. And one day you open up the closet and it just can't take it anymore. And it all comes spilling out. And it's understandable. I'm not saying that people should, you know, I'm not saying that it should be any other way than it is. I'm just saying, I guess what I'm really saying is if you're 25 and listening to this, and you're a person who's hiding all of your things, just ask yourself, what is it, what am I hiding? What am I really afraid of? And like, try to tease it out. Is this something you should really be ashamed about or afraid of sharing with other people? Because it's probably not that big of a deal.
Speaker 3: (27:24)
No, it's not worth it. It's not, usually it's not worth it now. I don't know. You know, for me, it has not been worth it. So I was thinking about that story, just the gymnastics. I went through the physical gymnastics. The, I could have cut myself on the glass, like what in the, but it just, it's a deep thing. And I was telling a friend that, and she was like, Whoa, this is so deep. So is it that you're
Speaker 4: (27:49)
Thinking because your mom is type a or you thinking she's, she's the kind of person who's definitely going to try to get to the bottom of this and would, would raise, would get to the point where she would be asking somebody to dust for fingerprints.
Speaker 3: (28:06)
It was more like, it was more like trying to put that floating Molly bolt shelf into the wall that, and the whole, it just, the story of my childhood was whenever I was doing the best I could. But whenever I, I would try to keep it all together. The whole would get bigger and bigger and no one would help me out of the hole. I think that's the other part is that I had to do everything by myself and that my mother would ultimately say, what is wrong with you? You should have X, Y, and Z. So instead of facing that shame, I just tried to do it on my own and it never worked ever, ever, never, ever. So I think, yeah, I think it's the fact of I was alone and I just kept making things worse because I didn't know. I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could share with anybody. So it's like at some point you got to step back from the hole in the wall and say, I'm licked. This has got me. I need to ask for a mechanic. A handy has, I don't even know a handyman to help, not a mechanic.
Speaker 4: (29:12)
The thing that also that, that tends to do in people, um, when they feel like they can never ask anybody for help is they can never develop intimate relationships with people because you, you, if you can never trust that. So when were you first in your life, was it with miles that you were first able to have real intimacy that you would just be yeah. Trust him too.
Speaker 3: (29:34)
Yeah. That needs to not go away to not leave, to not be like, Oh my God, you forgot your key. I'm never talking to you. You know, whatever it is. That was really, so I, that was, I was 30. I mean, come on. I mean, 30 years old, 30 years of not trusting. So it's really interesting. That takes a toll on your ticker. I'm telling you right now, you take a toll on your ticker. Um, yeah. So just, just a little, a light, poop story to wrap it up today. It's all, it's all, frankly, it's all poop stories. It's all food stories, right? At the end of the day, it's all, it's all shame
Speaker 5: (30:19)
Today on the podcast, we talk with Paul Holmquist Paul home quiz. We went to school with back in the day and after we graduated, he continued to be a theater actor for many years, and then transitioned into directing for the stage. At a couple of years ago, he felt he really wanted to make a difference. And he decided to become a high school English teacher, which is what he does now, in addition to being an artist he's thoughtful and kind his stories really were moving. And I'm so grateful that he decided to speak with us. So please enjoy our conversation with Paul home quit. This is my second year. I just joined the profile. Very new. You just became a teacher two years ago.
Speaker 3: (31:06)
Oh, that's cool. Where do you teach?
Speaker 6: (31:08)
Yeah, I teach at a South side, Chicago vocational high school called shop, uh, Chicago vocational career Academy. It's down by the Skyway. Like if you're driving down the Skyway, there's a giant, looks like a Batman villain, hideout. That's Chicago vocational.
Speaker 3: (31:25)
And so did you, um, how come you made that career shift? Yeah. Tell us all about it. Tell us all about it
Speaker 6: (31:34)
Is it's okay to talk politics. Sure. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, uh, you know, when Trump got elected, I was like, I gotta do something different and I don't quite know what it is, but maybe I could teach high school English because I have a background in theater, but it just seemed like maybe I need to do something because I was working a really great day job for like 15 years that had benefits in it, fairly decent salary, allowing me to do theater and stuff. But once the election hit, it was just felt like something I needed to change something. I was not very satisfied with. Um, you know, there was like no growth at my day job. What was that job? Uh, admin administrative assistant position at, at, uh, Columbia college. So I was still kind of close to the artistic community while I was working there.
Speaker 6: (32:23)
But, um, I had kind of a neurotic boss and I was there for 15 years and there was no, like, there was no growth. I'd kind of plateaued there. Um, and I wasn't making a difference anywhere, so it felt like I needed to do something. So I was like, I'm going to become a high school English teacher. Wow. Uh, so I went back to DePaul. I became a double demon and I that's what they call it. That's what they call it. Um, so I went to the college of education and got a master's, uh, there
Speaker 2: (32:54)
That's so great. Uh, education is a fantastic way to make a difference.
Speaker 6: (33:00)
Yeah. It's um, and it's, uh, a good segue from the, uh, from the theater work. I mean, there's, there's a lot of parallels
Speaker 2: (33:09)
Say, uh, beans. Didn't say her usual opening. Congratulations, Paul Holmquist you survived theater school.
Speaker 6: (33:17)
I'm still here to tell the tale.
Speaker 2: (33:18)
I want to be a double demon. I love this phrase. I think we should use it all ways. Even if you didn't get two degrees from DePaul, I feel I'm a double demon because I spent so much time talking about school.
Speaker 6: (33:31)
Right? You got a master's degree in the theater school after going to the funeral,
Speaker 2: (33:35)
By the way, I have masters in processing your theater school education.
Speaker 6: (33:40)
My I've been listening to your podcast now. And I had, I actually had to take a break before for the last week or else I'd be too neurotic about what I was going to say too, but I really find this podcast to be so personally helpful. Like I find it's like, it feels like a, like a group therapy kind of process, but protracted where Rouge taking turns, but hearing other alum, just talk about what they experienced. I was like, Holy cow, I'm not alone. I had similar experiences and wow. Wow.
Speaker 2: (34:14)
What's, what's an example of something that really resonated with you.
Speaker 6: (34:18)
Hm. Well, I guess I, I thought this is coming off of hearing, uh, interviews from, from friends like Bradley Walker and Eric Slater is I thought those upperclassmen guys had it all together. You know, Lee, Lee, Kirk, I thought these guys were like, just had just knew what they were going for and knew what they were doing. They just seemed so successful. And I was felt like, you know, like I was flailing along, trying to find my way. It's so great to hear that, um, to hear, uh, Bradley talk about his, uh, coin tricks with, with such despair, like as if it, but on my end, I thought he was the coolest dude. Like he had this cool thing and Slater was so awesome. Like, I didn't know he was insecure. Like all, I've just, all of that stuff is really, really great.
Speaker 2: (35:10)
I, I think that's, I mean, obviously that's part of why, why I think we do it is, is, is to, um, facilitate some kind of, if not healing, cause that's a kind of lofty word, but some kind of let's not go there, but, but, um, understanding or comradery in the fact that we all, um, went through this thing, it's true. And most people felt like an outsider. Most people. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I want to be like, if you're, if you're in theater score right now, spoiler alert, everybody look around you, the person on your right and bruise on your left. They also feel the same way you do. Uh, but unfortunately we cannot say that at the time because we're busy, like trying to seem like we have it all together. That's, that's a common thing. And there is also a little bit of like, you don't want to admit weakness in theater school, except at the exact moment you need to access it for a scene that you're in.
Speaker 6: (36:10)
Well, I, and it really it's. It strikes for me the difference between being an MFA and being a BFA is coming in as an adolescent. Like you're still in developmental processes that haven't resolved while you're going through this, you know, self-reflective, um, w all the body stuff, uh, that comes up, and that was so fascinating to hear that it came up for other people too. Like all of that stuff is part of while we're in the process of personality development to have to be under fire from these artists, from the seventies who have different politics and strange ideas, Bob Dylan taught us.
Speaker 2: (36:52)
Yeah, exactly. So, but when you were doing your day job, um, that you left work, you were doing theater at night. Is that what,
Speaker 6: (37:02)
Yeah. Um, I mean, for the past, like 20 years, I've, I've directed and acted in shows, um, pretty regularly. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: (37:12)
And w um, did you have like a, a place where you mostly hung out a theater company that you were a part of,
Speaker 6: (37:18)
Right? Yeah. So right after college, um, I didn't really hook up with a theater company, but that seemed to be the, the way for Chicago actors to go after graduation was to like either link up together or link up with another theater company to start. And I, I remember because the timeline was so new then, um, and I did a show with them, like their second show that Barry Burnett directed. And, um, and I had a feeling in my, I had like this investment in my heart, like, okay, I'm going to be a timeline guy regret. I'm going to join up with PJ. And, and we're, I'm going to be a part of that Juliet and be a part of that group. And it didn't pan out that way. I ended up, um, kind of gravitating up into Andersonville, working with the Griffin theater where another, uh, DePaul alumni and Rick Barletta was, uh, artistic director.
Speaker 6: (38:11)
Um, he was a good minimal director, Goodman train director. Um, so I still stuck with some DePaul people, um, kind of grew up with the Griffin theater. And then, uh, in 2006, I joined lifeline theater, which is up here in Rogers park, uh, where I live. So it comes through from where I live and I've been there since we do literary adaptations, um, all original plays. And, uh, so I've had the pleasure of directing amazing stuff, like the count of Monte Cristo and Frankenstein and the Island of Dr. Moreau and, um, you know, British murder mysteries and a wide range of really cool.
Speaker 2: (38:49)
Fantastic. How did you go? So you started directing then. So how did you bridge that situation?
Speaker 6: (38:55)
I, I, yeah, I kind of, well through my, a little bit of set up here. So through my day job, I got, um, trained in Laban's movement analysis, which is a movement theatrical, physical expressional, expressionistic movement, modality. It's kinda like, um, I don't know if you remember, Patrice did stuff with us about, uh, punch and float, like dad, that kind of stuff. So, um, through the department I was working for, I was able to get a graduate certificate in this modality for free, and I wanted to apply it to my own acting. And so I, I was doing, I was playing a cat in a, uh, in a, in a young adult show called Angus thongs. And full-frontal, snogging at, uh, at Griffin theater. I played, I played Angus. I had no lines, but I was a cat and I was doing all this physical stuff.
Speaker 6: (39:53)
And I was getting to know through that production, um, a lot of the, uh, uh, main players that lifeline, because they were doing a lot of the design on this show and kind of getting to know them and having a good rapport with them. They're designers not, um, are not, uh, acting, directing people. Um, but I've developed a good rapport with them. And that kind of started to introduce me to the people at lifeline. And eventually they invited me to direct a kid's show, um, just as an experiment. And I tried directing, uh, Ricky ticky TAVI, and that became a great success. Um, and then after that, my first, actually my first main stage show was, uh, the Island of Dr. Moreau, which was a 90 minute immersive, violent horror piece. So I like, I right away jumped into something that was really bizarre and, uh, unusual. And since then, it's been just a blast. I mean, I get to get a lot of creative freedom.
Speaker 2: (40:51)
I have to ask you a question. I recently have heard this term all over the place immersive. And I don't, if I knew what it was previously, I, it, it didn't drop in because when I think of immersive, I think like you go to a haunted house,
Speaker 6: (41:09)
Right? No. Right, right. I guess I think of immersive as be like a full sensory experience, as much as possible. And, um, you know, in storefront theaters, especially places like lifeline, where you can have entrances surround the audience, you can really have the sense of like an actor's right next to you that, and they're acting like an animal breathing in your ear and it creates a sort of sense of tension. I'm going back 20 years. And I'm thinking about this show, but that's what I think of an immersive theater. People might think of it as like you're wandering around from room to room. You're more interactive like that, I guess.
Speaker 2: (41:47)
Yeah. It's I saw cats on Broadway in the eighties. It was him. Cats came right next to me. So that was immersive. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that because, uh, I, I thought it was one of those things, like I felt it was, it was too dumb to ask about. Okay. So where you,
Speaker 6: (42:06)
Uh, I'm from upstate New York. I'm from the Rochester New York area, a little suburb called Webster.
Speaker 2: (42:12)
Okay. And, um, but you have not ever returned there after school. You stayed in Chicago. You've been in Chicago, stayed in Chicago. Okay. Yeah. Did you grow up acting?
Speaker 6: (42:22)
Uh, yeah, I thought of this, of course. Like, I think it was around fourth grade that I was in my first school play and it felt like, um, uh, people liked what I was doing and it was, it was one of those, like I'm coming into my own. I'm like 10 years old, starting to figure out, you know, think about who I might want to be identity wise. And that seemed to, um, to work for me now, then when I changed schools in seventh grade, I was shy. I was never really athletic or, um, I picked up the trumpet, but I wasn't a great musician, you know, but I got a lot of great response when I did theater work. And that just kind of, uh, that's what grew, you know, you gravitate towards those things where you get the positive feedback
Speaker 2: (43:12)
That is. Did you have, did you have one of those intense, uh, like high school drama? I know you said you've listened to some of the podcasts. You've probably heard tell if some character, uh, teachers from high school.
Speaker 6: (43:25)
I had a wonderful drama person who was not, we had no drama classes. We did not take any acting classes or have any, any sort of immersion like that. We just did two shows a year, a play and a musical. And, um, uh, so you just hung out at the club and, and picked up what you picked up. But my drama teacher, she knew that I was serious and there was a, uh, a guy who's a year ahead of me in college who ended up going to Tisch, um, a year ahead of me in high school. I ended up going and he and I were, we did a two man show called the greater tuna. Can I show you something real quick? Hold on. I was like, tuna is hilarious. That's from greater China. So this is Mark and I in costume playing all of our different characters in high school.
Speaker 2: (44:21)
Amazing. Wow. That's some production value.
Speaker 6: (44:28)
So that's a high school. It's a two man show. Uh, multicharacter, it's kind of like mystery of Irma VEP where, you know, you run off stage and you change costume real quick and come back on. So Mark and I, we took, uh, our acting kind of seriously. We took ourselves somewhat seriously as actors. Um, and, uh, Tish was definitely on my list when I was looking for colleges.
Speaker 2: (44:51)
Well, yeah. How'd you end up at DePaul. I love the, the choosing stories or how they choose.
Speaker 6: (44:57)
Um, yeah, totally. So, uh, Tish, uh, I was accepted at Tisch and I even got a little money at Tisch, but they accepted me into the experimental theater wing and I had no idea what that was and it didn't seem like me. I mean, I had grown up in kind of a cul-de-sac of a suburb, you know, with very limited exposure to what experimental theater might even be. So, but DePaul just felt like so nice. I came to DePaul after, uh, visiting New York city and then auditioning there. And, um, so I auditioned at DePaul in the theater school building with Dave [inaudible]. He wouldn't remember that he was in my audition group, but I remember him in his cutoff jeans and his Janice chocolate. T-shirt very well. I was so enamored with him because he seemed so, um, organic. Whereas I was at wearing a black mock turtleneck and black jeans and slicked back hair, and I was trying to be very artistic. I was also in the middle of playing Tevya in a Fiddler on the roof in high school, the most Arion Tevya
Speaker 2: (46:10)
Well, you probably didn't have any Jews in your high school
Speaker 6: (46:14)
If I, yeah. I don't know if we did. They probably weren't involved in the theater department as much as I want. Yeah. So it was like, uh, I was coming in there trying to be a serious artist and I saw David, um, and I didn't know him, you know, at all. I was just seeing him for the first time. And I was like, this is wild. This is what I want to get into. So part of what inspired me was John Jenkins leading the, uh, audition, which I thought he was just a brilliant guy and watching David and the audition made me feel like I want to be there.
Speaker 2: (46:46)
Does he know that now? You we'll have to tell him to listen to this one. You just remind, I guess we haven't really ever talked boss, correct me if I'm wrong. Have we ever talked about the fact that we did part of the audition all together in the same room? Is that what you're talking about? Like the thing,
Speaker 6: (47:07)
So John, I remember this so vividly, uh, John had us doing a scenario where we were, um, a Hunter in a forest and we were going to like walk along one side of the wall and the animal that we're hunting does a diagonal cross across the room. And we chase after it and halfway through crossing the room, we leak like the animal is supposed to mimic the animals. And part of the crossing, like the hunting, we were supposed to step on rocks in a stream or something like that to cross it. And I was just like, Oh, you know, I had everything planned out. I remember overthinking it very much, but also like being in line, waiting your turn, you're observing how other people are doing it. And this is, this is where David really comes in because when he left like that animal, he seemed to take air in the room, uh, because he was Unbound by his own, you know, insecurity or at least that's the way I interpret it. Wow. I'm really, do you find David kind of funny?
Speaker 2: (48:05)
That's okay. It's okay. So you said taking yourself seriously and overthinking ding, ding, ding. These are things I really relate to. These are near and dear to my heart. What is your journey then of taking yourself seriously? And, you know, like, has there been any
Speaker 6: (48:22)
Evolution or moving on that, like, you're going to think I'm nuts for saying this, but I swear that the show has helped in a little way. So I feel like I'm still in a process of recognizing what my expectations were, you know, for myself and my career. How did those change was and how w how was I influenced to change my ideas about that? And where am I now? Like, what do I want for myself now as an artist? And then how has that shifted, uh, that, so I've done a lot of processing on those because I am in therapy and I have been for a while, but also your show has really helped also turn some pages for me. So, thanks.
Speaker 2: (49:01)
So welcome believably. Wonderful. Thank you. That's very touching. I just want it. So in terms of taking yourself seriously, I feel like there that's a way to go. I took myself. It was like, I had such self-centered fear that I didn't take myself seriously, but I took my fear really seriously, of the, of, of being at school. You know, it was different. I wish I had taken myself seriously as an artist, but really what I did was just dive right into my shame and feeling. I just really did a deep dive into that. And so I'm wondering, how did you learn to take you're like, I know we're saying like, taking ourselves seriously can be kind of a, it can be, um, an Achilles heel, but also like, did you just, were you just born with like, yes, I'm an artist and here I am at school?
Speaker 6: (49:52)
No. I mean, I think that what started up school was using alcohol and drugs to keep myself from feeling that kind of fear and insecurity. So, um, you know, going at school, going to classes with kind of a boldness and an energy while also fighting a little bit of a hangover, or maybe still maybe, maybe coming to class a little high, you know, that helped a lot. Now, there you go. That makes, and then, and it all fit in with taking myself seriously as an artist because artists drink get high all the time. You would talk about apartment, what was it through your car? And like, you know, we're going to get high and we're going to do space out there at work. Like I'm a serious artist, you know, I can really feel the weight of my space objects when I am stone.
Speaker 2: (50:47)
You guys, do you ever wonder, like, is that, do you think that's still part of the college? I guess it probably is. It's probably still very much a part of the college experience,
Speaker 6: (50:57)
Right? Yeah. I don't think drugs will ever stop being or anything that's illegal is going to stop.
Speaker 2: (51:03)
It's just that we T we talked to somebody last week who is at the theater school now he's graduating this year and I didn't ask him, but I wanted to know, like, so, like, what's the, I mean, he's talked very wonderfully about the experience of, of being an actor at the school, but I also kind of wanted you to like, what's the whole social scene. I want it to be like, where you like me drinking Mickey's forties, big mouth and peeing on school property, but I didn't ask him, but I did not ask that because I thought, yeah, he probably, he might not have wanted to say in any case in it.
Speaker 6: (51:41)
Well, um, my wife is on faculty there now, so she teaches, she teaches movement there now. And I've been back a couple of times that directed an intro there, and I've done some guest lecturing there. So I've been back in the new building and the old building before it was torn down. So I've kind of maintained some ties to the theater school over the years. Um, and I don't think, I think the students, the student experience has changed just because the times have changed so much, you know, and the, the, um, but, and I think they're a little bit more savvy than perhaps we were, they don't do the God squad parties, but I think they still probably have some form of God squad, but it's not the like,
Speaker 2: (52:26)
Right. That's probably for the best, you know, I was going to say the person we interviewed that is at the theater school, talked about your wife and said that one of the reasons that he loved the audition process was, or when he went, he took, I think, a movement class with her and, and that he talked about her. So anyway, we're coming full circle here. It's real crazy.
Speaker 6: (52:47)
That's great. And it's so fun to hear these stories too, and to talk about them with Christina, because she's working with Phyllis and Patrice, uh, she worked with John, she worked with John Bridges. She's, you know, she knows these people, so they're, and so that history is still living, you know, sensory still. Yes.
Speaker 2: (53:03)
So what did you, so you got this movement training and Oh, and you with it, you taught that's, that's
Speaker 6: (53:10)
A little bit of teaching that way. Okay.
Speaker 2: (53:12)
Sorry. Did you say where you were teaching that
Speaker 6: (53:15)
Columbia at Columbia college, Chicago, but not in the theater department. It was through this other, uh, graduate, uh, arts therapy department that I was working. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2: (53:26)
So now that there's no more cuts system there, isn't this a direct connection between the theater school and Columbia, because yeah.
Speaker 6: (53:35)
You don't have a feeder college going into going into the code base. Right.
Speaker 2: (53:38)
Is it still a very robust acting program there?
Speaker 6: (53:41)
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, and still has that sort of scrappy energy, um, you know, Sheldon, I think really established, uh, um, um, uh, pathos around that place around that building and that program that still continues.
Speaker 2: (53:59)
Um, I was going to ask you while you were at the, the good old theater school, I remember you as being a musical theater guy. Am I making that up? Were you a big movie musical theater guy?
Speaker 6: (54:11)
I, yeah. I loved love to sing. Absolutely. And yeah, and Vanessa was more of the singer, but she and I would do, um, we were in that, uh, Michael Maggio, Keith redeem musical, the perpetual patient then Clemente was the lead in that, um, was that your final year? Maybe that was, yeah, it was after you got,
Speaker 2: (54:34)
But I was there. I remember. Yeah. Okay. So perpetual paste, that was a musical. Did you say Michael Maggio wrote it?
Speaker 6: (54:41)
Uh, Keith redeem wrote it. It was an adaptation of the imaginary invalid. So it was an adaptation of whole year made into a musical that, um, uh, um, Oh my gosh, Mike [inaudible], um, Mark Elliott Elliott wrote the music for Mark Elliot with the music for Keith redeem, did the script and the lyrics and Maggio directed. So Keith came to, uh, some of our rehearsals, um, because Keith and Michael had a relationship. So I got a lot of scripts autographed that day.
Speaker 2: (55:16)
How cool. So what are, what are some other roles that you loved or didn't
Speaker 6: (55:24)
Right, right. Um, well, working with Michael, I think were the two roles that really helped me understand myself as a character actor, I, where I did a missile Alliance, which Eric spoke about. Um, and I provided you one of the pictures of me, all the pictures of me have a mustache attached to them seem to be my go-to, but yeah, being, uh, being in an Ms Alliance and playing a character role in that with a kind of a goofy dialect and silly physicality and extreme stakes and working with like Tim Gregory and, uh, you know, Louise Rosette and Eric and all these Ellen and all these great people. Like I was, I was a junior and it was my, it was the fall of my junior year and I was on the main stage. And I remember that being like, that was pretty prestigious. That was pretty cool. Um, yeah, I'll, I'll probably forget that show so that one, and I would say perpetual patient were both really big for me in regards to embracing my character actor stuff.
Speaker 2: (56:32)
Anything, anything that you weren't so pleased about?
Speaker 6: (56:37)
Um, gosh, I mean, going, even going back to intros, I tried to, you know, you try to make the most out of everything, even when I had like, um, a, like a walk-on role in something you try to, you ever hear the story about, um, Betsy Hamilton said the story about Don Elko and she saw him on stage once he was the third speared carrier to the left. And she, that he was so memorable in that role with no minds. And I remember her saying this, like, you can make anything out of, you know, if you working with the director. So I always try to make something out of the roles I was in. I remember Jenkins saying to me, after we did bombing Gilliad as an intro, and he had Joseph Cora and I flipped roles halfway through the play where Joe played the lead, the first half of the play. And then I played a double lead, like seconds before he got shot. And like, it was so hard to get into that role and to like, try and feel like I'm that character in the moment that I know I'm about to die. And like, that was really hard. And John apologized for that, but that was, that's the only regret.
Speaker 2: (57:46)
Did he do that? Because it made sense for the player. He was just trying to get people more staged.
Speaker 6: (57:52)
Yeah. I think that's the, you know, the sort of unspoken rule of the intros. It's like, you want to give everyone some kind of equal some sort of equal, but I was happy playing the role of the coffee shop owner in the first half in the first act. I would've stuck with that. That was fine with me.
Speaker 2: (58:12)
What about, did you have, uh, or do you have, now I know you are very interested in movement, but like other tendencies then, or now writing, um, I guess directing, you've done some of w are there other areas of the craft that maybe you wish you could have explored more than?
Speaker 6: (58:34)
Yeah. So voiceover is something that I, I was interested in since I was an adolescent, since I was young. I really love voiceover. Do you remember when I was in college and we had a voiceover instructor, she was like a friend of Susan leaves who came in for a quarter. She said to me, uh, the age of radio is over. You don't really have a place in this business. She was, she was all about the kind of a raspy, vocal fry, female voice that was popular at the time. So she was really promoting those female voices and was basically like, you need to take a back seat. I'm sorry. The age of radio is over. You're not going to have a place in this business. And I took seriously because I was 19. I was like, Oh. And so since then, I, I have experienced the, uh, repercussions of that, even though I'm looking intellectually aware of it, like trying to get into the voiceover business, I'm hobbled. Like I can't push through the difficult first months of trying to establish something. I can't get through that point. So I, I just kinda gave up on that. I liked the sound of my voice.
Speaker 2: (59:52)
Oh, I'm so surprised. You're not a voiceover actor that I, in fact, back in my mind, I think I assumed that you did voiceover, but wait, what are you, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. You're saying that you, when you try to establish yourself, you find yourself like undoing it or, or, or you feel that the hurdles are insurmountable.
Speaker 6: (01:00:13)
Well, I, I w whenever I've tried to get started, I feel like there's, and this is the thing with being a white guy, I think is like, there's way too many of me. I don't think that I have that much uniqueness to offer, to upset the business and become something that I, you know, to add something to the community. So at this point, I feel like now at first I was hobbled with the age of radio was over. And now I feel like I'm feeling a little like, well, I guess I don't really have anything new to bring to voiceover. I would just be really impersonating the guys that came before me. Um, so maybe that's believing some of what was told to me when I was an adolescent a little bit, and also kind of reckoning with, you know, just where we're at as a society right now. And as a culture right now, maybe it's a mix of both, but it's really nice.
Speaker 2: (01:01:07)
So the age of radio has never been over. Right. Cause then, right.
Speaker 2: (01:01:16)
It's also not true. So, so what I, what, what sticks out to me is that when we're 19 and these people in power say things like that, the repercussions hear me. Now, if you are an instructor of some kind, they ripple out until you are 45 years old, and you are still dealing with them. Now, I'm not saying they did it on purpose. Maybe some people did, but it's harmful. And so I think, I think it's. And I also think that I want you to meet my voiceover agent. And I also think that, that I, um, I just didn't shocked at what we say. And Gina and I talk about this because Gina has kids. I don't, but just that what we say matters to people and you have kids, and what we say matters to people, um, more than we could ever know, it drives me insane when I hear stuff like that. Um, because I've heard it too stuff, and it's not fair. And we were 19 and you have a fantastic voice and you're kind, that's the other thing it's like, you can hear the kindness in your voice, and I'm so serious, and we need that in this industry. So that's all I'll say on that. Get off my box. But man,
Speaker 6: (01:02:28)
Thanks for saying that. But I want to say something too, about what you were saying with the messages. There was something that I'll say his name. You can edit it out later, said to me in his office one day and I'm surprised, I bet there's a lot of stories.
Speaker 2: (01:02:42)
Oh yes. We believe his name on the regular.
Speaker 6: (01:02:47)
So he had me in his office. Uh, I think it was like sophomore year, like second year and he's, and I was sitting in his office and he said, all right, get up. Mike stood up. And he said, turn around. I turned around in a circle and said, no, turn your back to me. I turned my back to him. He was still sitting down and I was standing and he slapped me on the, both cheeks. He said, this is getting too big, sit down. And I sat down. He said, if you're going to get anywhere, you have to lose some weight. Your is getting too big.
Speaker 2: (01:03:24)
Oh my God, I'm sorry. That happened to you.
Speaker 6: (01:03:32)
Well, you know what I feel like at that time, and I've talked about this story a lot, but after listening to your show, I've been thinking about it more. Like, I feel like what he was trying to do. I think what he was trying to do, if I assume the best is he thought that that was the form that I needed to fit in order to be successful. You know? Like, and I, and when I was looking at my headshot and said, that's your, uh, can I come move your casting couch for your headshot? I was like, yeah, awesome. This is cool. I'm going to be the sexy young guy. Right. Um, but that wasn't me. And I didn't know that that wasn't me. I wanted it to be me.
Speaker 2: (01:04:13)
Sure. Of course you did. You want it to be liked and loved and picked and worked and feel
Speaker 6: (01:04:17)
And sexy and cool and stuff, you know? So I want it to fit those molds. I want it to lose the weight. I want it to be the casting couch guy. I wanted to be, you know, I wore a leather jacket with the collar, pop to my hair, you know, the sideburns and the Urim and stuff. And I did the whole thing. Um, and I went to LA and I went to meetings, but my personality isn't that. So I didn't follow through on the expectation.
Speaker 2: (01:04:45)
You didn't know who you were because people were helping you to say, this is who you should be. And it really, probably somewhere inside you were like, no, no, I can't just like, if you're not. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. How can you show up at 21 or 22 at meetings with adult people that are trying to, that want you to sell certain things? And in your core, something about your being is like, this isn't, this isn't me. It's going to not work out.
Speaker 6: (01:05:12)
I spent money on a really slim fitting, nice suit, you know, good sunglasses walked into the meeting trying to feel like, yeah, I'm this, I'm the sexy guy. That's gonna solve all your Hollywood PR problems. But I couldn't hold a conversation because I didn't have the confidence, you know, despite the cost,
Speaker 2: (01:05:30)
I wouldn't even know why, how could you have confidence when people are telling you you're too fat, you need to do this and you're, or, or you're you're yes. You're headed in the right.
Speaker 6: (01:05:39)
Right.
Speaker 2: (01:05:40)
You guys, I just feel so sick to my stomach about that story. And I, I, part of what makes it, so, um, sickening is that, I mean, he touched it, but he also, he made you turn around something about that is like, it just really is hitting me right in the center of my chest, because how dare you? How dare you.
Speaker 6: (01:06:03)
It was so vulnerable. You know, it was a really vulnerable moment. And I feel like we, we put ourselves in vulnerability with our, with our teachers in that, in that Mel you right in the conservatory program, um, whatever, the modality of art that you're studying, you're in a really vulnerable place for experiments. And you're putting stuff out there that represents you.
Speaker 2: (01:06:26)
That's right. And, and, and so like for anybody in college, probably the experiences, uh, that child has had pretty much the same set of people, their whole life, reflecting back to them who they are. And then you don't know this, but part of why you go to college is to have other people reflect back to you who you are, so that you can figure it out and decide which one, and which is why we all do that. So many. And in high school too, like trying on personalities and trying to see what's going to fit. And then in theater, it's like, you're trying to do that. You are receiving messages from people about how you're perceived, but then you're also being asked to be open, to be anything new. It's just so tricky and dangerous. And, and, and there are so many billions of ways that, that self-image can be, uh, splintered, right? Some of them might be good, but a lot of them are really not
Speaker 6: (01:07:29)
Well in the highest value that we bring into the classroom is our vulnerability, right. Being, being as open and open, open, open, open, open, and neutral as possible, right. Ego lifts is try to be as equal as possible. So we're so receptive
Speaker 2: (01:07:45)
Were so receptive and were so fragile. You know, people are fragile. We're also fragile. It's like, I just, I I'm just always shocked at how quickly someone will, someone can, um, crumple a child. [inaudible] the episode that era's today is the one with Erica who mentioned you she's she's actually, when, when we interviewed her, she said, have you talked to Paul? Yeah. And also she's the reason that week. I think I called your email. You sorry, later that day. Um, but Oh my God, I just lost my train of thought something Erica said maybe about, about the theater school. She said a lot. Oh no. We were talking in today's episode in the first part about, Oh, victim impact statements. That's what it was. We were talking about victim impact statement. Ooh, we should w maybe we can't do it in real life, but we could write a play where students gave their victim impact statements to their teachers.
Speaker 2: (01:08:47)
Right? Like you had the opportunity kind of like in defending your life, you have this long, it's not really like fighting in life, but you have, you get this kind of council of teachers. And then everybody who was their student, if a toxic teachers can come in and say, this is what you did, probably you didn't mean to probably no teacher would say what I really wanted Paul to do was, uh, never consider voiceover, even though that's what he totally wanted to do. She wouldn't have said, she thought she was doing, you're such a favor.
Speaker 6: (01:09:18)
Right, right. You'll waste your time.
Speaker 2: (01:09:21)
That's what it is. They think they're saving you from the humiliation that then they're reflecting on the moment that they're second. They think they're saving you. And really they're, they're slowly killing you. I mean, like it's real in a way it's real.
Speaker 6: (01:09:36)
Hmm. This feels like a non-sequitur, but I want to follow it. So, Gina, I know that you directed under milkweed. Uh, I also directed under milk. Um, we, we rehearsed at the theater building in the courtyard and so really had a strong connection to production of that play in school so much so that I really wanted to recreate that experience for another audience. Was that your experience too? Yes. Yeah. So he can't all be the devil because that play was so beautiful that it touched me. I mean, it moved me for the rest of my life, you know, and that came from him and his heart. So there was something about like, I really trusted him because he was so earnest and passionate about the capital T truth. So I fed, I thought that I totally bought into that. And I believe that he believed it.
Speaker 2: (01:10:35)
Dude, if we could interview him, he would probably have stories that would, you know, make your hair stand on, end about what people said to him or what people did to him. I mean, that's what we find. Right. And then his teacher would say, they literally beat me on the side of the head when I did something wrong. It's just this thing. It's just like what the, the traumatization is almost like an absolute value. Hopefully, hopefully not forever. Um, just the only thing that changes is the way that it's inflicted. And I think what happens through generations, you think, well, if I'm not traumatizing somebody, the way I was traumatized and I'm doing good already, right? Like I'm not hitting them. I'm not literally spitting on them. I'm just telling them that they're pieces of. That's, that's fine. Right. Right. And I think that, that comes that's, it's my mom used to say, well, at least I don't beat you like my parents. And I thought, well, that's where we're coming from here. Well, no wonder this is what I work in with. So it's like, we're working with damaged people who are, who are ha probably have really good hearts, but made some awful awful choices when they open their mouth. Sometimes
Speaker 6: (01:11:42)
I remember, uh, Don Elko stepping into a scene with, um, Chris [inaudible] right
Speaker 2: (01:11:52)
In LA he's a fashion designer or he was
Speaker 6: (01:11:55)
Okay. He is, he is so close to him for a short time. I remember at [inaudible] class, uh, Elko stepped into a scene with Chris where he was, he put, like he stepped in, tagged an actor out to take over the role. And in playing the role in the scene, he whacked toe for up side of the head, really hard was a scene from, um, uh, Eugene on all the, uh, the act older actor, dad and his six son. Um, so he just smacks his son upside the head and Tofor like, totally broke. Character was like, Hey, like covered his head. Like, look back, is wrong with you right now. And, and Don seemed to like bristle a little bit and say like, you know, you need, this is the place you need to get to in this scene, you need to get to, like, he was really crying. It passionate, cared about this actor, right. Stepped into push the actor to this point because he felt like that was the right thing to do, but it was abusive.
Speaker 2: (01:12:56)
Right. And also it's abusive. And ages strikes me as these people were like our parents then. So like, they were, there was like such a parent thing. And it was like parents, but they weren't our parents and parents shouldn't be doing that anyway. But I'm just saying like, they were our teachers, but I think you're right. Like there must've been a different time or something because that wouldn't happen. Now you'd go right to jail. Right. When you think about those people as with your adult eyes, you, you, you can see them so much differently. You can see their trauma, their, the way that they, and, and, you know, I think now this is another thing that's different. But I think for when we were there, it was definitely a lot of people who were very frustrated, you know, actors really wanted nothing more. See, okay.
Speaker 2: (01:13:46)
So I'm just going to do a little thought experiment and try to put myself in their shoes. So we'll actually, it does. I don't have to think that hard. I actually had this experience. Um, so I want nothing more than to be an actor, how I want to be, how I can see myself being is not matching up with how I'm actually being. And certainly not with how people are perceiving me. I don't want to a D a J job. That's not related to this. So I choose to teach. And then I watched talented people who I think are definitely going to get somewhere, not, you know, not getting it in some way. And then I want to hit them on the head. I mean, I, I don't want to hit anybody on the head, but I'm just, I'm trying to like empathize with, with the frustration Frustration. Wow. Okay. Wow. We've covered a lot. Um, can you talk a little bit, cause I'm a little bit obsessed since I live in LA now of what the showcase experience did you feel? We talked a little bit about how you, so you got these meetings, so you, you, you, you dialed yourself up. Do you remember what model all you did for the showcase? Okay.
Speaker 6: (01:15:01)
Yeah. I don't remember what it was. It was a weird monologue. So the monologue was Satan. So I was saying, and I was talking about, um, uh, how to capture souls and how delightful it was to trick people into giving me the salts. So, and I wore, and I dress contemporary with my leather jacket and I mean, the leather jacket was like a Jean investment at the time. It was part of the persona. So I did this whole, like I'm of the cool devil. I'm going to get your soul. And I got to use my voice and be kind of creepy and, you know, [inaudible], um, yeah, that's the word I'm looking for. And, um, and so that was a blast and I felt like pretty cool. And so, yeah, I got a couple of meetings and not everyone did. And, uh, you know, you take a cab out to 100 millennium way or whatever, like the, this cluster of tall buildings in the middle of nowhere and yeah.
Speaker 6: (01:16:02)
Century city, right. Something like that. And I think I went to like three meetings, but each time, and I, and I had the one suit and the one dress shirt. And the one time though, like the whole outfit thing was starting, like by the end of the meetings was starting to feel uncomfortable and not as pressed, you know, really crumpled. And so was I a little crumpled, you know, and like, feeling like I'm not selling this, you know, each meeting would end with so well, when you decide to move to LA, because I wasn't ready to make that commitment.
Speaker 2: (01:16:35)
Right. Of course, man. I just thought what?
Speaker 6: (01:16:39)
So I left with a lot of business cards,
Speaker 2: (01:16:41)
By the way, that's everybody who we've talked to, who's had a meeting, that's what they said. The person said, well, are you going to move to LA? Uh, I don't know that we've found anybody who, who said, well, well, yeah, yeah. I am going to move to LA right now because also the I'm just trying to think, like what's even the, what was even the, um, fought about what would happen because you can't move to LA because an agent likes you. That doesn't mean you have a job. That just means they get 10% of whatever that you can get. So what was the thinking behind? It was a half, you know what, half, it was a half baked idea going to New York. Yeah. You could, uh, find out like whether or not people, you know, wanted you to, cause I think in New York it wasn't, or maybe it was agents in New York. I had this feeling like in New York it was more theater companies would come and, and then maybe even say that they wanted to cast you in something, but in LA it was never going to be that it was only going to be,
Speaker 6: (01:17:41)
We either didn't go to New York or I blocked them.
Speaker 2: (01:17:44)
No, no, no, we didn't. They, they that's what I'm saying is they shifted instead of going to New York to go to LA, but I'm not certain necessarily what the thinking about. It was, maybe it was literally just here's LA here. You know, here's like a very small glimpse of what the life is like here.
Speaker 6: (01:18:02)
It's part of the attraction, right? Like, I mean, I'm going to go to the theater school, but I actually, I'm going to be a movie.
Speaker 2: (01:18:07)
Right. Right. And then we talk a lot about on the podcast about the schism between being a theater actor and a theater artist, and then all of a sudden being expected to be famous as an ant on screens, when you have no idea how to do that, it's really quite something it's like, yeah.
Speaker 6: (01:18:24)
And the, uh, stinger that you have on these episodes are we saying like cracks me up every time because it's, so it's got that kind of sardonic sort of like, I don't even believe it. I'm saying
Speaker 2: (01:18:37)
Right. It's sort of like, wait, I think it did feel like the goal was we learned all these techniques for acting and movement and voice and how to take care of ourselves. And then it was like, kind of felt like, well, forget all that. You're really, your job is to be skinny and pretty and be famous. And so, which is a very hard thing to do. And so it's like, that's gives him his drives me bonkers. I'm like, you know, and I think it's gotten better and maybe your wife knows and you know that. And, and I, I actually teach BFA fours online. Um, and I think I'm trying to like, sort of help the schism, but it's like, when we went there, it felt like it was a million miles wide that, that crater in the ground between I'm a theater actor, but really I'm just supposed to be on friends. You know what I mean? Like what,
Speaker 6: (01:19:25)
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2: (01:19:28)
It's harder. People seem to other people I've said this on here before, but other people seem to have been totally prepared for that. Totally. I was like, what, what, what, what did you say? And also other people seem to know before we got there and I didn't know that you could get cut. Um, and other people seem to know that you should be trying early on to angle and, and kind of like figure out, you know what, anyway, I mean, it's, it's, it's almost beating a dead horse at this point. We didn't know what we didn't know and we're learning,
Speaker 6: (01:20:03)
Right? No, we started with, I think my class started with 80 students. If I remember correctly, we started by our class was, uh, an enrollment push. And I think 14 of us graduated. So some time between freshman year and senior year, uh, and, uh, John Bridges said very, um, smartly. I think, you know, some people leave, not because they're cut, but because they can't stick around and we certainly experienced some of that. But man, we've just, we've spent all those four years trying to please everybody and try to figure out our ourselves while demeanor.
Speaker 2: (01:20:37)
It doesn't work. It doesn't, here's the thing. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a fool's paradise. It's not real. And it's so crazy and I'm 45 and now I'm going, Oh, this was a different kind of confidence game this whole time. This was an inside job. They didn't, I didn't understand that. And I think it's, it's amazing the things we that I thought I wanted or that they thought other people wanted from me whenever I'm just myself and that real vulnerable, the true sort of my true champions want that from me and that's enough. And I'm like, what the hell? This is who taught. But again, and we're beating the dead horses now, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. But it's like, we didn't know. We didn't know what we didn't know. And, and we didn't always have the best guides.
Speaker 6: (01:21:26)
Yeah. It strikes me that, um, that dog, again, it strikes me that, uh, John Jim hostel said in class, right. Um, what do you, what do you want to do? Or what's your dream or where, how do you want it? Do you remember him asking this question? I remember us all being like, uh, I just want to make a living and being an actor like we had, no, there was no model for us to direct ourselves. We didn't have the people that came to visit us like angry F Murray Abraham, or, or, or, uh, rip torn or, you know, people coming to yell at us about being professionals.
Speaker 2: (01:22:02)
Were you in the room by the way, with the FMRI? Were you there when?
Speaker 6: (01:22:05)
Totally, totally. I remember that very distinctly. And, and I remember Rick Torin yelling at some girl about who was coughing, put a piece of ginger root in your cheek and shut up or something like that because she was coughing while he was talking, you know, like have these professionals come in and yell at us about, about being professionals, but that doesn't give us a clear vision of what's possible for us. I've had a lovely 20 year career directing and acting in plays in Chicago. I didn't make a dime off of doing it or, you know, very little. Um, but I made some great work and I had some great experiences and I'm not done. I'm going to go back to it eventually. And now I'm just taking a little step back.
Speaker 2: (01:22:46)
And I now mentioned him that thing about rip torn. And I was remembering, uh, Brian, Denny browse, were you there when Brandon and he came, he was our celebrity. And I don't, I don't remember much about it. He was so angry. I met him so angry. He was so angry. And, and what I'm realizing now is it was just the, it was the thing, as
Speaker 1: (01:23:06)
It was maybe with our professors only these were working actors. It's, it's just, it's this, it's this very bizarre inclination to see somebody to see a younger version of yourself, everyone of just punished, like you see the younger version of yourself. You want to just Shroyer them. You want to like, it's so weird. It's so crazy because we're trying to emulate those who came before us. Even if it's just subconscious, we're like, well, I got to give some tough love because the tough love is what got me. Meanwhile, never stopping to say, wait, was it the tough love?
Speaker 1: (01:23:43)
I'm the drunk that can't get it together. Maybe it wasn't a tough, actual love. That that is a good, that is a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Paul. Thank you for the actual love and thank you so much for doing this. You're thriving. You serve thrive. Great word. Amen. T-shirt if you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Janet [inaudible]. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Accountability, the power of speaking with certainty (i.e. Jen believed she was a different age because someone miswrote it on a medical report), false confessions.
Let Me Run This By You: We are always our essential selves, Soleil Moon Frye's new film Kid 90,
Interview: We talk to Sue O'Lear from The Strongly Worded Podcast about chafing in the theatre school environment, seeking art with a social justice bent, the little-discussed psychological trauma that can result in plumbing the depths of one's emotions for a character, and surviving with the help of the good people at Espial Bistro & Bar.
Intro: The cult(ure) of skiing. Shapewear. Let Me Run This By You: What is your emotional age? A parent's biggest job. Interview: We talk to Justen Ross about doing theatre school on zoom, being a multi-hyphenate, and forging a new path for Black students at TTS.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
(00:00:08):
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? So I was good, but it was, you know, is, uh,
(00:00:37):
It's like the, the culture is very snooty and exclusive and that kind of stuff is tiresome.
(00:00:47):
Yeah. I there's the culture. Right? So the culture around skiing is it's pretty hoity toity. I mean, if you think about it, it's like people are choosing to put two strips of wood on one foot in each strip and go down and snow. It's very, it's something you definitely choose to. Do you know what I mean?
(00:01:08):
It's a choice. It's a choice. So w when you were, was it your I'm guessing it was your dad? That was a skier.
(00:01:14):
So, uh, we had family, friends that were like, and we only did. We only did cross country skiing, but okay. But like, and my sister now, and her family did, they do some downhill skiing, but it was, so it was more, it was the culture around downhill skiing is so different than cross-country is dorky and downhill is like, cool. Right. So, but we, but I know the schlepping of the gear and the, and the, this, but the culture is so different. Like, it's really sort of a ragtag group that cross country ski versus downhill skiing.
(00:01:47):
Uh, see, I could see myself doing the cross country cause it's kind of like hiking, but just on skis, right? Yeah.
(00:01:52):
It's a great workout. It's a great workout. And it's also, you get to see, see the forest and see, see places, but it's, it's definitely kids are like, no, we want to go down. Like, what are you talking about?
(00:02:05):
But did you want to do that when you were a kid?
(00:02:09):
I was dragged into skiing and then I grew to like cross country skiing and I never have been downhill skiing.
(00:02:16):
Okay. But, um, I'm just saying like, did, were you one of the people who said to your parents, like, can we try downhill?
(00:02:24):
I think my sister might have, she was cooler in that way. I just didn't want it. I think I wanted to go ice skating. I wanted to, I did not. I did not say, Hey, let's try cross country skiing, but I definitely liked, I like my friends that went to like Vale for spring break or Christmas break from Evanston, they went to Vail, they went to Aspen. They went to, you know, I was jealous of that scene, but I think I was scared shitless to downhill ski. It's hard as hell.
(00:02:52):
Yeah. It looks really hard. It looks really hard. So when I was in sixth grade, um, we moved to a place where I was going to be in a different zone for my school district. Um, and so I did sixth grade in a different school than I had done first or kindergarten through fifth, which meant that I, and all those kids had been at that same school since kindergarten was. So it just meant that I didn't know any of those kids. And it was a rich school and one day I just remember them being like, so next week there's no school because it's ski week. And I probably just thought, I don't know. I don't know what I thought. So I went home on Friday and I said to my mom, there's no school next week. And she said, it's not because it was February or March was, it was too early for spring break.
(00:03:54):
She was like, it's not spring break. I said, it's ski week. And she goes, no, that's not a thing, mom. That's what all the kids are in. They're all going skiing. And she said for a whole week, we just had this back and forth because of course she was a single mom, like to, had to make, had to like quick. Right? Yeah. Just one of the many things. And you know, when we were there at this place, um, there was many a nanny with the younger kids. So you know that they paid to bring the nap. It just, wow. It's just a whole thing. And I don't, I'm not knocking it because I think if you can afford it and you like it, I think that's great. But it's just, I guess it's sort of still weird to me that, that, that there's just these rarefied pockets. Yeah.
(00:04:47):
Nothing has. I think that the, um, yeah, the, it hasn't changed. Like we've changed in some ways, but then there are these pockets of real classes sort of, um, look like good people, downhill ski. I'm not saying that, but the culture is one of, um, you know, elite it's elite. It's like skiing is not a thing. Like, like we said before that you have to do like walk, you know, like hiking, uh, you have to kind of walk so you can have, anyone can kind of hike, but skiing is a whole, you have to buy a lot of apparatus and the lab equipment or rent. And I remember my sister saying she took her, I think she took me and went, I forget, but it was like $200 a person just to get in.
(00:05:32):
Oh, just the lift. Oh yeah. And that's not counting. Uh, w you know, if you have to stay overnight, all that you have to buy, not only the skis and the boots and the poles, we rented them, but, you know, you have to pay to rent them too. Um, but also the pants and the jacket and the goggles and the, I mean, it's, but I will say it's very adorable that my seven year old is like, like a great, you know, she's a great skier.
(00:06:05):
That's cool. That is, it is cool.
(00:06:07):
I think it is cool too. And the thing I was saying to my husband is, you know, cause I have the same sort of feeling about tennis and we haven't done golf, but I'm sure that's in our future. And I said, you know, I, I th I'm disconnected from these sports because I didn't grow up with them. But at the same time, I think what a gift we're giving them, because a lot of industries, including our industry, uh, a lot of business happens on the tennis court, on the ski slopes, on the golf course. And they're going to be, they're going to know how to do all that,
(00:06:46):
All of those things. Yeah. And I think just on a base level, like Gina, the, um, the athleticism is important, even skates. It's hard. I wish I had, I think I would've had a better relationship with my body. Had my family done more outdoor activities. We did. I mean, we, we did some, but like, it wasn't encouraged as a family. We, we, when we were younger, we did, but like, we, weren't a real active family in that way. And I think that's a lot of eighties, nineties sort of sit in front of the television, but I wish I had done more of that. Like, or been forced to or something. I don't know. I just, yeah,
(00:07:24):
No, but being forced to, or being forced to take music lessons, I mean, there's all kinds of things that, yes, we would have probably railed against them as kids, but wouldn't, you love to be this age and be like, I haven't done it a long time, but I know how to play tennis. I haven't done a long time, but I know how to play the piano. Just all of these things that help to make you a more rounded person
(00:07:43):
And help you get jobs like in life, like people now, what I'm, you know, people are really going for that sort of, well, they say, and I think they are as well-rounded humans, like, Oh, you don't just do this. Like, like we talked to someone, you know, a hyphenate person, a multihyphenate person. They're like, yeah, I play tennis. Yeah. And, or, or, um, I think it also just, and everyone has always said this, but it helps with self esteem. The more activities that you feel like you, you know, how to do the more you're like, yeah, I can handle this life. I know things.
(00:08:14):
Yeah. And it's also kind of this thing about like, when, when, when, when areas of life are not closed off to you, you know, because when you don't have a great variety of things that you learn how to do outside of just going to school or whatever, you end up feeling like a lot of life is not available to you. And I know it is if I really wanted to learn how to do these things, I could, I just feel like I missed my window for those things. And it does, it does serve to make me feel on the outside.
(00:08:52):
Did you write while you were away? I wrote blog post.
(00:08:56):
I edited the episode and I did something else too.
(00:09:04):
That's enough. I mean, look,
(00:09:05):
Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to write a play for my group, a short play for my group. Um, and I didn't, you know, it was like, I kept trying to make an idea that wasn't that strong work and it just wasn't working.
(00:09:19):
And sometimes it just doesn't like I was thinking too, like, just because it's funny with writing, I think anyway, I don't know how you feel about this, but just because you have the time doesn't actually mean that something good is going to come out.
(00:09:31):
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah.
(00:09:34):
Don't have time something good comes out. Like I, I just wrote that. Well, yeah. That's an interesting thing. Yeah. And I was like, I was so mad because I was thinking about how, I don't know. I just got mad thinking about how, um, right. Um, the plus size world is such a weird world and we talked a little bit about how, you know, plus being a bigger human in this life and bigger means so many things to so many people like I'm, I'm reading all these posts of people that are qualifying for the vaccine because they're obese and they're not, they don't quote local bees, but their BMI. And so they get vaccine and other people are like, well, you know, the, the comments are like, you don't look fat. Why, how can you get the vaccine? You don't look fat. And it's like, well, first of all, BMI is a little crazy.
(00:10:27):
Second of all, be quiet. Third of all, we need to get the vaccine and that's gross. And you know that this is, but anyway, the point is, I got really mad about this sort of idea of like, you know, what, what is plus size? What is, um, who qualifies as that? And then I wrote this thing about this woman who just is sick of his shape, where, cause I thought about, and I like shape where like I wear it on, on sex. It feels kind of nice at a point, but it's like, at what point does it become like a prison shape where, you know, and I just couldn't take it. I just thought what if it was to the extreme? And some people must wear tons of it. Right? Like they have. Yes.
(00:11:07):
And even I, what I feel like I've heard of before is quite thin people wearing multiple sets. It's fast, very sad. That's all.
(00:11:16):
And the idea that like you literally, so when I was on empire, I was on the show empire. I had like, I had literally one line. Right. But they, I was in scrubs and they put me in shape where like apply in scrubs. Okay. So shape where you could wear your own. And I had some, but the kind I had had metal ribbing and metal boning to keep it up and to keep it in, to keep everything sucked in. But the problem was, this is crazy. So if you know how sets are, they're so long. And I was on there for 12 hours and the started coming out of the casing of the, and it started stabbing me. And I literally couldn't sit down because you can't go in half when you have the ribbing on. So I'm standing, trying not to ever look, do you want to see it?
(00:12:05):
I'm like literally embarrassed. Cause I can't say I cannot sit down because of the shape where, and I, I brought my own, so it was my, my shape where I hadn't tried it on. I hadn't done the anyway. I had a gash in my stomach from the shape where, when I got home that I had tend to a wound with like a wound care for it. And I just, I was thinking about that and I got so mad and I thought, who cares? I have a one line. And she was like, you're going to wear shapewear. Right. And I was like, Oh sure. I okay. Because I just really wanted to please the costume designer, but it was, it's like a scrubs. I played a nurse who cared. I had one line, blah, blah, blah. You're the doctor will see you now. You know, that was my line. And they, I had to do that anyway. I was very, it was like a gash. Like you can't see, but like half an inch, you know, that's insane. Completely insane. That got me thinking,
(00:12:57):
Yeah, let me run this by you still kind of emotional that you ever meet people.
(00:13:10):
And I play this game a lot. I talked to somebody and I get to know somebody and I think, okay, no matter what, by the way, what they have going on on the outside, no matter how mature adult looking, they sound, seem, act, I have this way of being like, okay, so you're eight years old emotionally. Like, and it's usually always under 15, right. For all of us. Cause we all have this trauma, we get traumatized, we get traumatized. And, and if so, I, I, I played that game with other people. And then I try to figure out on any given day where I'm at emotionally. Cause I don't think it's static. You know, I think it changes. And, and actually it's so helpful to do that, to try to remember what was happening for you in your life at that time. And then instead of, um, like how probably both of us want to do just shame ourselves or beat ourselves up, that we should have been better when we were that age just to have compassion and say, Oh, well I know what was going on then.
(00:14:15):
And, and I was feeling extremely insecure. So that's the part of my development that just stopped. And it's that age, you know, what's so weird is that I'm thinking now I have really regressed sometimes in my speaking to miles. So I'll say, Hey Maya, like a kid. And I realized it's like, I'm five years old, but it's because I think I'm trying to heal that part of myself. I it's not, but I can throw temper tantrums too. Especially at night. Like I got to go, I literally say, I gotta go night, night. I gotta go night night right now. And he's like, what in the hell? But I think that's, what's going on. I turned into, I regress emotionally. And I think it's because when I was five, my mom started traveling and leaving us with my dad who was severely depressed guy and I was stunted stunted. And so when, when, when I'm triggered in that way, I turned into a five-year-old. But the difference with me is I don't then get on the phone and start calling business associates and people like and saying, hi, help me. I got to go nine, nine. I mean, they'd be like, um, so we know enough to not do that.
(00:15:30):
Yeah. Um, and I hear enough, we're aware enough. Yeah. And, and playing this game and then having kids. Isn't interesting because I spent a lot of time thinking about like, am I helping them grow past this phase or this age or not? And, um, my daughter, because she's very smart and very capable and, and she grew up, you know, she's growing up in this, this house with this family. She, I can already see, she is the, um, she's like the peacekeeper I can tell. She really feels like she has to have it together all the time. So I'm work. Aaron and I are really working hard to figure out like how we can give her the message. I mean, cause like, clearly I know from having done this clearly the message that we've been giving her is that she needs to do this, that she needs to like completely take care of herself, which it makes sense to me why she would be doing that for reasons.
(00:16:34):
I won't say right now. Um, and on this trip, the end of our second day, or I was like, yeah, the end of our second day, we're at dinner. And we got down there too late in the kitchen was closed. And so Erin had to leave to go get food and we're, we're just in the hotel lobby hanging out. And she, she brought the stuff to color and we were coloring together. And then my, my son wanted to do it with us. And then he started like kind of trying to take it over and she just burst into tears. And she said, everybody puts so much pressure on me. Oh, I wanted to die. I just wanted to, I, I, but I, but at the same time, I'm so glad she could say it and we could validate it. All of us. They were like, yep, we do. We put too much pressure on you because if you're, if you're seemingly competent and you're in the context of others, then you have to be like, even more.
(00:17:40):
That is wild. But see here's the thing. You could use it as a, as like you, you were able to, to acknowledge it instead of what happened in my family, which was no, you're not no pressure on you. Of course. There's no pressure on you. What are you even talking about? I remember writing, Oh my gosh. At like maybe seven writing, uh, with crayons. I am always alone. Okay. Okay. And leaving it. I was home alone at seven watching television, my parrot, who knows where everybody was. So I leave that out of not shocking. I mean, I don't mean to, but of course I did. And my mom goes, Oh my God. I saw that note. That is that true. And I felt so bad that, of course I lied. I said, no, no, I was just kidding. She goes, okay, great. She'd never investigated any of it. So at least you're investigating what it means. The messages you're getting from her and from your children instead of dismissing squashing or denial, my mom was like, great. Okay. You were just joking. Oh good. Instead of like, let's really talk about this. Do you feel alone? Or when do you feel alone? No conversation, no conversation.
(00:18:46):
Right? Because it's just so threatening to the parent. Like if, if I take you seriously, then I have to admit that I've failed you in some ways as a parent. And that's the other thing. Why does any parent ever think that they're not going to fail their kids? I mean, I had a therapist one time who said, this is I had, this was like, I went to this person when I was very first a mom. And he said, it's so tempting to think you're going to do it perfectly. Isn't it? And I'm like, I didn't even know that that's how I was thinking of it. But that's exactly how I was thinking about it. And twice in the last couple of weeks, uh, I have basically forced myself to engage in a conversation with two of my separate times with two of my kids, about ways that I failed them.
(00:19:34):
And I just realized like, this is the conversation. This is basically your biggest job as a, as a parent to be open to this conversation. Because no matter how hard you try, you're going to fail your kids in innumerable ways because you're flawed and you can't be everything to your child when they need it. And the best thing you can do is when the day comes and they could be five, they could be 45 when they come to you and they say, Hey, you know, you did this. And it really didn't work out just to be able to say, I'm sorry. You're right. I did do that. And not say, well, it's not my fault. Cause that's how, uh, you know, my, my parents raised me. That was your father's fault. You were anything like that. It just has to be. Yes. I hear you. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. I'm open to talking to you about it at any time that you want to talk to me about.
(00:20:36):
That is so beautiful. I wish that had had the only time that happened with my mom was when she was dying.
(00:20:43):
That's usually when it is. And then it's like, and when she did that, you did you get
(00:20:48):
Angry? I got angry. I got angry because it was obviously such a bind to be in to say, but I did say, you know, you did the best you could, but it wasn't good enough. And I'm thank you for saying, but of course I got angry because I was like, you're going to wait until now when I'm taking care of you and you're dying. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about putting pressure on somebody to forgive. Right, right, right. I know. And also it's weird that you, that any of us could have so much clarity about the problems in the way that we were raised and still think that if we are raising children that we're somehow doing it exactly the right way. It's so it's, it's interesting. You know, the other thing that's interesting to me is like, I think it's a really good that she said, everyone always puts so much pressure on me.
(00:21:37):
I think it's a good thing to think about how we all put so much pressure on ourselves to like, as adults, like I used to hate hate children crying in restaurants. Right. I would like want to, I would, it would bring up so much rage in me that it was a problem area. And finally, a therapist said to me, can you just imagine that that child is screaming and yelling because you can't in a restaurant for us, it is expressing the thing that adults cannot do. And I was like, whew. It like opened up. It gave me so much more compassion. And also I was like, Oh, they're, I'm partly enraged because they're doing what I wish I could do sometimes. And they can do it. And I was like, I never was allowed to do that. Oh my gosh. So it, but like the fact that she was able to say that, Oh, how amazing, you know, because we do, we put pressure on ourselves. We put pressure on our children. Everyone's putting pressure on everything. And you know, and then you got the Pablo macaroni is of the world just making it worse.
(00:22:43):
Now here's a question to the Pablo macaronis of the world, put pressure on themselves. I think they do. I think the pressure is to keep up the lie. Right. And even that is a job. That's a job now. I don't know if they feel it as pressure. Right? It's not that sort of crusher. Like, I'm a good person. Why is this happening to me? It's more like, can I keep it up? Can I keep it up? But that's a different kind of pressure, but I don't think they put the, like the good, guilty pressure on them for like serial killers or they like, gosh, you know, my numbers have been really low. That's got to get my head in the game. Why is my head out of the cave? That's hilarious. Her head in the game
(00:23:28):
To the freezer podcast. We talk with Justin Ross. Justin Ross is the first person we've talked to. Who's currently a student right now at a theater conservatory. Um, he's, he's a fourth year BFA student met DePaul and we had a lovely conversation with him. He's a multihyphenate. He does it all. He's an actor. He's a writer. He's a filmmaker. He's a mover. He's a singer. He's just, he's full of life. He's effervescent. And he has his insights and his, um, just the amount of weirdness that he has about himself as an artist, as a human, um, as a student was, was glorious. So please enjoy our interview with Justin Roth. So
(00:24:23):
Justin, I don't know if you've ever listened to our podcast before, but we start every episode by telling people, congratulations, you survived theater school, but you actually haven't survived it yet.
(00:24:34):
Not yet. I'm almost there. I'm like
(00:24:38):
You are surviving a currently surviving. Justin, what year are you?
(00:24:45):
I'm in my last year. So I graduated in June.
(00:24:47):
Okay. So boss is going to be your teacher to be your teacher. Uh, I'm going to teach on camera too. Um, spring quarter on the 29th, starting on the 29th. Yeah.
(00:24:59):
Yeah. I'll see you there. It's going to be you there. We're going to love that.
(00:25:04):
We are just dying to know what this has been like to be doing this remotely. It must be just wild.
(00:25:14):
Oh yeah, definitely. It's it's it's it's like, and I'll tell you, let me turn that off. Um, so, you know, I was, I have an interesting story with, you know, my mom works for the CDC and I'm from Atlanta, Atlanta, Georgia, and Atlanta right now. And my mom works at the CDC headquarters here. She's been on the COVID response team. And so this time, last year, it really around January last year I got a call and my mom was like, Hey family, we're going to get on a call. I just want to let you know some things. Cause she was in New Jersey at the time. She was like, okay. So COVID is like a thing. And the country is probably going to go into shutdown in these next few weeks. And just knowing my mom, I'm like, Oh my God, you're being so dramatic. She works there and I'm still like, mom, like it's okay.
(00:26:05):
And she was absolutely right. Come March, everything shut down. And um, the world turned upside down in more ways than one. Um, and so for me, I think artistically, because I don't only act I do music, I dance and I do a lot of those things. I'm a multihyphenate artists. And so at the time I had just done my first, um, a group of artists and I had just done our first live concert for an EAP we dropped and it was, it was beautiful. It was so beautiful. I got nominated for a princess grace scholarship, which is like, which is a scholarship, you know? Yeah. Things were moving. I th I just felt like, wow, like God in the universe is finally seeing my work and I'm being rewarded for the work that I've put in. And just, and I'm, I'm getting somewhere. I feel, uh, I feel a momentum coming.
(00:26:59):
And as soon as that momentum came, it was like, like the rug got swept from under no more concerts, princess grace scholarship got canceled, which would have paid off a large portion of my loans. Um, and so, and so just as an artist, as a person, I realized in that mode, I was a little bit in a survival mode as an artist. I was living in this place of like, my art gives me meaning and my artists who I am. Um, and I think there's a spectrum of that, but like, it's not the whole thing. And so going to school on zoom, I just lost all motivation in the spring. I was like, Oh, I was, I was skipping class. I was like, Oh, this. Like, I'm not doing like, I'm just, I'm not doing it. Um, but I had to go through a, truly like a spiritual awakening in order to like really adapt and move and not resist how it's been happening. Like, wow. Cause I'm just a very, I, I love in person learning. I just love people. I love energy. I just, I love bodies as well. I'm a physical actor. So I just love playing with bodies and seeing what bodies can do in relationship to each other. And so taking that from me has been, it's been very difficult. Um, it's just been, it's been, it's, it's hard, but, um, can I know Justin?
(00:28:28):
How did my, first of all, my network is very bad, so forgive the delay, but, um, we talk about a lot, my very bad network. Um, but, um, how did you that spiritual awakening? Can you talk a little bit about how the, you moved through that? Like, how did you go from like, this to, you know what, I'm going to give it a shot.
(00:28:49):
Yeah. As you asked me that at 11, 11, um, I don't, I, Hey, I can't truly, I chose, wow. Where do I start everything I had? So I was in Chicago and everybody, we were forced to go home. So I came back home to Atlanta who chap I had to live. I live with, I had to stay with my parents. Um, I am. I came out of the closet in my freshman year of college, but you know, it's that thing of like, when I came out, I came to Atlanta, came out and I was like, okay, I just came here to come out and I'm going back to Chicago because I had to do it on my work. I stopped growing. And it was because there was a truth that I wasn't confronting. So I was like, Oh yeah. Well, if I'm here to do school, this is a part of the learning.
(00:29:42):
Like I got to go home and come out, come back and be who I am. And so it's that thing of like, okay, I came out, but I haven't been here long enough for my it's really sink in. And for me to like, have to learn how to be myself around my peoples, you know, friends, family, these people here knew me in my survival mode. They didn't know me and my thrival mode. And so coming home forced me to reckon with how, what I was running from. Um, and so being with my parents, I was running, I was running. I didn't feel like I could be creative around them. I didn't feel like I could be myself, my friends. I didn't feel like I could, the person that I had become in Chicago. I couldn't be that anymore. And I was like, so what's holding me back from that.
(00:30:25):
I know who I am, but for some reason, I'm in this depression. So I had to really awaken to like, okay, these are the factors in my life that aren't working anymore. So coming back home, I returned not only home, but to the habits that I picked up while I was at home. So the spiritual awakening people make it seem like it's more God. And all it really was, was me having to talk to God as I released the things that no longer served me. And it was hard because I was in this middle position of like, well, what, what, what, what do I run to now? What do I run to? And it was art. It was art. It had to be art. It saved my life. It saved me. I didn't, when I stopped smoking and drinking and I had to do art, it was the only thing left. Um,
(00:31:09):
That's amazing. That is, I love this story already. So if, but did you, do you performed, I'm assuming you've performed all your, all of your life. So I'm thinking to myself, you were having to perform being a performer right before you went to school and, and that must have been so hard. That's a hat on a hat, on a hat. How did you do how'd you survive that in high school?
(00:31:43):
What, what, what, what are we to say that I had on a hat on a hat and I survived it. It was about, so just to be transparent, art was about proving myself. At first, it was about having something that I have something to say, I wasn't, I was in, so a little bit of my ego was attached. A lot. A bit of my ego was attached to it. I was like, Oh, I just get to be on stage. And like, you get to see me and I get to be seen and you don't get to, and you get to, and not only that, you get to see how limitless I am. That's what it was about. It wasn't really about telling stories. I'm gonna be honest. Like it just wasn't, it was about my, just knowing that I was capable of getting in front of a thousand people, 500 people and being like, this, because I felt like I couldn't do that in real life.
(00:32:32):
And so navigating that, like, it's so crazy, like people would be like, you do all that on stage, but then off stage, you're like introvert. You're like the shy person. You're like, you know, so it's like, it was medicine for me. It was like, well, that's enough for me, for you to see me for that hour and 30 and see that that's what I'm capable of. People saw me differently. They did, they did. They treated me differently when they saw me perform. They did, it was almost like I had a sense of worth. Now I was worthy of something. I was worthy of people's communication. I was worthy of people's kindness now, you know, so it was, it was the way that I navigated it. It was, it was survival. Like it truly was. I felt like I was invisible. And then all of a sudden I wasn't.
(00:33:20):
And, but the work wasn't, you know, it was, it was there, it was therapy when it should have been therapeutic, the art wasn't therapeutic yet. It was just like a way to make friends and feel important. Um, um, but I'm blessed because through those hats on hats, on hats, I've developed a lot of skills now that I now with my different mindset come to with the D come to with a different energy and a different intention of like, okay, I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I have nothing to prove. This is something that I have now, and I can work it every day and I can find the flow in it. And now it heals me rather than me trying to like, I don't know. I don't really know how to describe it, but, you know, just put perform. It's not a performance anymore. It's, it's just me being, it's me existing within that craft.
(00:34:15):
That's I love that. But, so when you did come back home to be with people that you had known as a performer, when you were performing your performance itself, and how did did, was that a welcoming, I mean, did people welcome you? Was it all good? Or did you have, did you struggle with that with your, within your social life back home?
(00:34:37):
Not really. I struggled with it. I I'm I'm I have some, I had some people pleas, heavy people, pleasing tendencies. Um, I was, you know, as a child, I was emotionally neglected as a child. Um, just to be very Frank, um, I'm an emotional person. And so that emotional neglect just led me into a place where I just felt like I had to please everyone and perform for everyone to keep them in my life, to keep them present with me emotionally, to keep them, to show them that I'm worth investing in and emotionally and physically as well, like be here. And, and it was hard because I was not voicing what my problems were with anyone. And that was the thing it's like, I feel all these things, but I'm afraid to be emotional. I'm afraid to really be vulnerable and show you like, this is actually who I am now. This is what I need now for me, just because I was afraid that people were going to leave and they left anyway, they had to go anyway, but it wasn't one. So it's like,
(00:35:38):
Yeah.
(00:35:39):
And I wouldn't kick them out. Right. Cause you didn't want to be,
(00:35:44):
How did you, how did you end up at the theater school? I'm so curious how you picked the theater school or how it picked you.
(00:35:51):
It picked me, it definitely picks me. Um, my parents are from Chicago, so I'm the only one. I'm the only like ATL in like my parents everyone's in Chicago, aunts, uncles, grandmas, grandpas, cousins, everyone else's in Chicago. Um, literally my sister and I'm a little sister or the only ETLA. Um, but originally I wanted to go to Julliard because again, it was just about proving myself. If I get into this big name school, then everyone knows that I'm worthy. Um, but my mom, when I was a junior, it was like, you know, have you heard about DePaul? And I was like, no. And we went on a tour to DePaul once. And then I was just like, dang, this, it was the yellow staircase for me. I was like, I was like, wow, this is just a colorful build the energy. It was just the energy.
(00:36:35):
I was like, I don't know what it is about this building, but I just feel something it's something about it. I feel like I've been here before to be honest. And yeah, it was, it was kind of surreal. I was like, I just feel like I've been here. Um, and then I taught again at the end of that year and did a workshop with Christina fluidity movement workshop. And I was just like, Whoa, like I loved that. I was like, I'm still going to Julliard though. And if not Juilliard, Carnegie Mellon, you know, I know
(00:37:08):
Hyphen ed, those would probably be a more natural fit.
(00:37:12):
Right, right. You know? And so I auditioned, um, the day I auditioned for the TTS and then I, I, I taught a third time my senior year, just for the heck of it. I'm in Chicago all the time to see my family. So we were like, let's do another tour because we just loved the tour so much. Um, and so we just loved it. And, um, and so that third tour, I was like, I just felt comfortable now. Cause I'm like, I been here, y'all have seen my face over and over again. And so I, the day I auditioned, I auditioned in Atlanta for TTS. That was like the best day of my life. Just like the day was beautiful. I auditioned, it was a beautiful audition, a beautiful space audition with Claudia and a camera night. And, um, after that, I went to the movies by myself and I snuck my little Thai food in the movies.
(00:38:05):
It was an empty theater. It was just me. I was watching marijuana. It was just a beautiful day. I didn't like, I just was like, wow, like I feel so good. And so without me knowing then it was just a sign. It was just a sign. And then when I got in, I was like, Oh, I got in. Wow. But it was still like, no, I'm still waiting for Julliard. And I'm still waiting for Carnegie. Didn't get in there and get in. Didn't get in there. And then all my friends went to Howard. So I have a lot of friends in Atlanta. A lot of my friends went to Howard. I'm in DC. And I was like, Oh, I need to go to Howard. Like all my friends are going, it's going to be dope. But Howard didn't give me any money. And TTS gave me a hundred. It was almost like God being like, Oh my God here, I'm making it clear. Like here's a hundred thousand dollars a year. And I was like, okay, fine. Um, and when I went, Oh, it's the best decision I ever made. Yeah. Yeah.
(00:39:02):
So, but, but like literally, how are you doing movement and voice on zoom?
(00:39:13):
I, you know, voices, a little voices to be too, just to be Frank. When I was at TTS in person after class, I was going to movement studios from six o'clock and I'd be in the theater school building until 2:00 AM, like all the time, just naturally. I love the work and I come to the work. I'm not one of those people who go to class, go home and then wait to go to class to practice my art again. Like, no, I do it. You know? And so when zoom stuff doesn't work, zoom doesn't work for me. You know, I create my own curriculum and I've always done that. I've I create my own, like what works for me? I'm there I'm present. But sometimes that's not always true. I'm there, but I'm not always present. You know, I I'll turn my camera off. And I'm like, this is what I'm doing today.
(00:40:09):
I'm making music. So for my voice and speech, I'm working on my song right now, as classes go, that's my finesse, you know, and I'm still growing and I'm still, so that's how I that's like the secret of like how I do it. And I also, I think in this time I advocate for myself, I speak to the theater school and I go, this is not serving me. I need to do this. And they trust me enough because I built that relationship of communication where I can just be like, Hey, this class for this teacher or this we not jelling or it's just not, um, and I'm in Atlanta, everybody's in Chicago. I already feel kind of out of the mix. I got to take a different route and they respect that and they go, okay, we just need you to turn this in by the end of the quarter. And now I have an assignment. Now I have something to work on for that I feel like helps me. So that's how I've been doing it. Like, I've just been kind of creating my own curriculum,
(00:41:02):
The plan that it's, that you're not going to go back or are they going to try to get you back in the last months?
(00:41:10):
They, so something's something. So like we have an African dance class this last quarter that we'll be doing in the quad. So I'm trying to go back to Chicago. I might just finish out my last quarter in Chicago cause I need that in my life. Uh, I just need to be in person for that. Um, and so some things that are in person and then some things are, I think it's like a hybrid. Um, I think they're playing it by of DePaul students get the vaccine on the 29th, so,
(00:41:37):
Oh, that's good. Oh, that's a relief. I mean, because that's the other thing is you have to be closed. That's the whole point of theater school is bodies on bodies on bodies. So I just like, how is this even going to work? But you know, everything is possible if you, if, if you engineer it enough. So, but now you haven't been able to do a show, uh, this, right. So you just, did you, do you did your fall, uh, quarter show. Okay. What was that?
(00:42:03):
It was our lady of key Bay ho by, uh, couturier hall.
(00:42:07):
Ooh. How cool. Tell us about your experience?
(00:42:12):
Yes. It was directed by Phyllis Griffin.
(00:42:18):
Phyllis has everything. Phyllis is literally my, some students and I were working on making. Cause I think this is our last year before retirement. We're working on doing a documentary of her last year before she retired. Yeah. It's so, yeah, she's just phenomenal. It was beautiful. I played a Bishop [inaudible] and um, I come from a Catholic high school background and um, we had factions like our lady of Lords, our lady of key Bay, ho our lady of Fatima. And so I was already familiar with Cuba and the, the story of these three girls who were seeing apparitions and I'm a spiritual person. So I was very connected to that, that story. And it was just, it was beautiful, um, to see, you know, my class was the largest black acting class that the school has ever had in the history of the Goodman school of drama. Yeah, we have. How many,
(00:43:15):
Can you give us a sense of how many people
(00:43:18):
12 in my acting class that's amazing. Isn't that crazy? Isn't that crazy? It's like, Whoa,
(00:43:27):
It was crazy that they didn't have this before. I mean, I I'm sure you've heard. We have basically from the, yeah, it was like one, it was almost like a, a system designed to have one or two people of color. I mean, as you know, and Phyllis was our only professor of color and to my knowledge, that lasted for quite some time and 12, by the way, out of a hundred, did your, did you start with a hundred in your class,
(00:43:55):
Then we have 32, 30, two of us. And so 12 out of the 32. Um, and actually what you're saying during the, our lady of key bail process, you know, when I came in, I started, um, an organization called the black artists of today, which is the first affinity group the school has seen in its history as well. I was like, Oh, he's black. And I'm from Atlanta, it's black as hell here. So I was just like, all these black people. I was like, no, we can't together. What are we doing? And we're stronger together. Um, and you know, a lot of, and so we came together and for key Bay, especially we saw a lot of the unconscious bias and a lot of the, um, aloof racism within that process. Black people learn differently. It's the truth. We, when you bring, that was, uh, that was an all black cast except for one white actor.
(00:44:54):
We were, we were warming up with a dance. We were warming up with a Jim Bay drum. That's not a process that usually people in the theater school go through. And so they, they did not respect our process is the truth of it. We're stepping into this, Rondon dialect, these Rwandan people. So we need to step into the Rwandan music. The Rondon, the, the, the, the, the culture of community. That's what African, a lot of African cultures are about is that community creating rhythm in a dance. Like we had a whole dance that they would not allow us to do. There were just a lot of things that they were like, we can't make time for that. We can't do this. And then Phyllis watching Phyllis like have to like surrender all of the kids in our class. We're like, what the is going on?
(00:45:43):
Like, hell no. Like we, and we had a whole moment where we were like, Phyllis, has this been what you've been going through all of these years? Is this what you've been going through? Like just, they don't, they just, they don't respect you. They don't allow you to, they don't respect you. They don't respect your actors. They don't respect your process. And as actors, it's almost like people always like, well, actors don't respect designers and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. That is not who we were. It is not who we were. That it was just that, you know, cause sometimes in that moment, I just feel like production and artistry like actors, like it just clashed because production was like, well, this is my set. This is my lights. This is my sound. And we were like, okay, we don't give a about it.
(00:46:30):
We just want to make a shot. We could do this in a black box. Why are we making this about, um, flash? It's really not about that. Um, and so we weren't being heard and it took a lot of fighting. And so that the process taught me in the midst of like all of that struggle, like, okay, this is kind of what the real world is like a little bit, I'm getting a taste that like, it's not really about the story. It's about the money. It's about the production. I was like, okay, so now I'm getting an understanding because I wasn't understanding at first and we just, we weren't, we weren't seeing eye to eye. It was a lot of like, we had to have a whole discussion as an ensemble, like production team. And cause now actors and designers started to get into it because people started to disrespect Phyllis and we wasn't having it. It was just a lot of stuff. Um, but it ended up being a beautiful show. Um, in the midst of all of, through that chaos came something very beautiful and like, you know, and so at the school that like, yeah, this is something new, this is a different way of doing things. Like we have like, there's another way. And you've never seen this way cause you ain't never had this many black people in this space.
(00:47:45):
I'm thinking what it must be like for Phyllis to finally be able to do a play with an all-black cast. I mean, she may have been able to do it before this year, but I just remember our first year boss was at, before our first year that she did for colored girls or was that our first year? I think it was our first year she did for colored girls. And there was only like one or two black actors, one, one Dorcas. It was Dorcas. Right? Was that yeah. Yeah. Jordan Johnson. Yeah. So, Oh my gosh, by the way, just as an aside, if, if you are, uh, putting together a documentary about Phyllis, if we can contribute in any way, uh, especially the, the very few black actors that were in our four years, we can, they've been on this podcast and we can, um, hook you up with them. And we'll also by the way, tell, also tell Phyllis we really want her to do the podcast, but she hasn't responded to her yet.
(00:48:38):
You know, if I, if I, if I can get to her, then I'll definitely talk to her about it.
(00:48:45):
Okay, good, good, good. So that's so cool. Black artists of today. So what's the mission is the mission really just, um, trying to undo some of these conscious and unconscious bias.
(00:48:57):
Yeah. Just giving, giving black people a space within this white dominated conservatory group to, to have a vision and feel like it can be executed without resistance. That was the goal. It was really just our core values. We, uh, we value accountability, boldness performance. Um, um, what are our other values? Um, and just gall. I think that was our main thing. Just like having the balls to just be like, I want to do this thing. Cause a lot of the, the group felt like they just needed permission because a lot of the, some of the black actors that, you know, I come from a black dominated space, but a lot of the black actors come from white spaces come from white. Like their hometowns, just like they were the token they were. So like, I like, it was an awkward, there was an opportunity for us to be like, okay, like, no, we don't need anyone's permission.
(00:49:57):
You don't need anyone's permission to tell your story. Black girl, black boy, black, neither. Um, you, you CA you have freedom here. We can just, literally we would meet up in a black box and we, we, we broke up into groups, groups of four wrote pieces, the same way you would devise, like any other thing came back together. And we created a show called the monkey bar anthology, which is like this playground series of like the traumas that we all had gone through as like stuff we experienced on the playground that just really shaped us into like who we are. And it was beautiful. We put it up ourselves for the playwrights, uh, uh, show and people were telling us, they were like, wow, that's like the best show I've seen at the theater school. And we didn't have a set. We had like some blocks and each other.
(00:50:47):
And, um, also it was a space where we could open up to more than acting like we could. We create, we sang, we had singing pieces, we had spoken word pieces. We had dance pieces. We had comedic pieces all in one show. Um, because I think that just, it's not the theater schools fault, but sometimes conservatory training. When you even think about the theater school building, it's a box, it's like a, it's this boxy place. It's just this like very concrete, concrete floors. It's very like, you're doing this, you're in this show. This is where you, we want you to go this way, this it's, and it's not their fault. That's how conservatory just naturally is. So we wanted to create a space where there's not really boxes. There's a sphere that kind of just continues to expand. Um, so yeah,
(00:51:42):
Cool. Well, I, I, at the risk of sounding like, uh, one of these people who you hate, who I hate, um, the box would be preferable to the building that we had our theater school in, which is which it was an abandoned, uh, elementary school. I mean, it had its charm, but it was, uh, it was sorely needing, updating. Um, okay, so you did, so you did the couture hall show this year. What about last year? What shows did you do?
(00:52:12):
Oh, well that was the show last year, the key Bay hub. I didn't get to do any shows this year. Um, there were zoom shows, so we had zoom shows, um, this year, but we had an option. There's something that's called the student in the project endeavor that they started up because people didn't want to let people like myself refuse to do a zoom show. Um, so they were like, what do you want to do then? And so I decided I was like, I'm writing a short film, which I shoot in two weeks. Um, super exciting. Thank you so much. Um, so I, uh, a collaborator and a student in my class, Shelby, Renee, and I, we decided to, Oh, we're gonna develop this short film. And the school was like, okay, we'll give you $500 and this will be your credit. This will be your performance credit.
(00:53:03):
We're like dope. Um, and so that was our performance credit last quarter. And we submitted all of our packages. We said, even though the film won't get to you, we have the script, we can send you a zoom recording of the reading. We can send you our look, book, all that's being done. And then the next quarter, like I have a show as well that I had to cancel, but in replacement, I'm like, I'm dropping an EAP. I will give you a music video and that'll be my, that'll be my thing. Um, which honestly worked out beautifully because when I was in the building, music was something that they were definitely battling me on. Like, it was like, you know, they were just like, we need you here. It was a cohort of us because a lot of the students in CTS, we rap. And so we created a rap group and like we were fire. And so they, but they weren't really messing with it. I was just like, look, I'm hearing that y'all, aren't doing, we all collectively, like weren't doing homework. It was a mess. Cause we were in the studio every night. It was just a mess.
(00:54:00):
You weren't doing homework because you were doing the work
(00:54:05):
Well, this is our way, you know? And so they were like, well, we need to, to do this. We need you to do this because now we're seeing a pattern, it's you? Him, him and him. And I'm like, yeah, we all in the same rap group. Um, and so now, now that we are kind of remote, it's almost been liberating. It's like, okay, well now we can do it. And like make it our grade. Like that's kind of beautiful.
(00:54:28):
Standing out to me too, is that this idea of a conservatory is, um, probably really outdated and it needs to be modified and needs to be updated. And it sounds like from what I'm hearing from you is that you are one of those people that had the calling to lead the charge of sort of innovating that school, which is mind-blowing because if you ever listened to the podcast, Gina and I talk a lot about how we didn't really know who we were when we were at the theater school and I am so encouraged. And also in all that, you seem to know who the you are and what the you want to do. And that is glorious. I can't imagine it it's glorious and it's and the conservatory method and the methodology needs to change. Right. I mean, that's what I'm hearing.
(00:55:18):
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's I went in and after I came out an artist, um, as kind of what I say, like, I wouldn't, I didn't know I wanted to be an artist or a multihyphenate artist. I just knew that I kind of did these things and I, but I acted mainly am I getting actor who sayings and actor who dances an actor who raps. And when I got in the building with so many resources, I was like, wait, I have all these resources. And I can only act that don't make sense to me. You know? So yeah. What's your film about, so my film, right, it's called it's, uh, it's called sun and moon, a secret tragedy. And it's about two men. Uh, two black men who are, um, competing for compassion, who are ashamed about their sexuality. Um, one is out of the closet.
(00:56:06):
One is in the closet, um, and they share this like secret passion for one, another one is afraid to voice how he feels because he just values the friendship. Even though he knows, I desire you like I'm out of the closet, but like a gay man and a straight man can be friends it's possible. Um, and I will resist my desire to maintain a friendship with you and the others. Like I desire you to, but I'm going to beat around the Bush. I'm not going to say the truth. I want to see if I can have my cake and eat it too. Um, have this girlfriend on the side and be with you. And so it's a movement based film. A lot of the film is about how, when the spoken truth, isn't said how it manifests in bodies, you know, it's like, um, so a lot of it and it's, uh, we have a lot of contact improv kind of incorporation in it.
(00:56:53):
So it's like, if he's say like, he's like, Oh yeah, I love that. No homo though. And then there's a shot of like them next to each other and their legs intertwining though. There's still that, like, I can't say this, but like, I need to physically feel you. I need to be, I need to get as close to the truth as possible, even though I can't say it. So that's kind of what it's about. Um, and of course it's a secret tragedy because it's not really something people see because it's usually on the download. It's usually something that is not in the public eyes. So yeah.
(00:57:26):
Are you going to be filming it in Atlanta or are you going back to Chicago to do it?
(00:57:29):
We were filming in Chicago, but now we're filming it in Atlanta.
(00:57:33):
That's so cool. And so you're the star and the writer and you're directing it.
(00:57:38):
I'm not directing it. My Shelby's directing it. I, that would have been way too much writing and starring is already too much. Um, but it's been a beautiful, like the, both are going to be my debuts of being in a film, uh, and, um, screenwriting of film. And so it's been a beautiful experience. I am starring in, uh, in, uh, a friend of mine, Eric, who's a dancer is, is going to be opposite me. And so, um, it's just been such a fruitful experience because now it's like, it's not expansion. It's just like, Oh, okay. I can do this too. Let's try this out rather than like, you know, having all these expectations or like, I'm a Virgo. So sometimes I really, you know, there's that, there's that paralyzing perfectionism. Sometimes that comes up. It's just like, it needs to be this or it can't be anything. And it's like, no, it's like, it's not all or nothing. Like, yeah, I've never done this before, but I'm very capable. You're a beginner until you're not. Um, so it's just been fun to like expand and go through the process. The script has gone through like eight drafts and I'm like, Oh, this is this process. This is what it takes. Oh, wow. But it's been fun. It's been awesome.
(00:58:48):
As they say, writing is rewriting. Uh, so I'm trying to make sense of the curriculum now. I mean, you mentioned African dance, which is a class that we had, of course, a voice and speech of course movement. But did, did it, did it go the way of your first year, first of all, there are only two first-year acting teachers.
(00:59:12):
Mm, no, they did. They definitely, they change it every year now to be quite honest. Um, once I think once our class came in, we just shut up and they were like, okay, we don't know what to do with y'all. And then the next class came and they were a little anxious. They were like, okay, let's switch it up again. Then the next class, they were like, Oh my God, like, what are we like? Literally the theater school was in a cluster, right now they don't know really what to do. And they're starting to figure it out, anti-racism work and all this stuff. So the curriculum is very it's in this like metamorphosis period right now. Um, the, the class that comes to like this next freshmen class, they're a little bit blessed because I think they're figuring out a concrete, like, okay, this is how we should do it now. But um, to me, it should always be that thing to me, it should always be how you
(01:00:04):
Be always responding to the, to the students. I mean, that, that's, that's our big takeaway in thinking about this process that we went through and didn't know ourselves is, um, we didn't know how to advocate for ourselves. We didn't even know what we didn't know. We didn't know what we were missing. Um, and we certainly didn't possess the ability to say what you've referenced saying, this isn't working for me, whatever. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong. I'm just saying for me, it isn't working and I am paying a lot of money to go to school here. So maybe you should figure out a way for it to work for me. I mean, that was just, and it's a cultural thing too. I mean, like in our generation was just completely, I think, unused to say, especially women completely unused to saying, you know, advocating for ourselves in that, in that way, which is sad, but true.
(01:00:57):
Um, uh, what's going to ask you a question. I can ask you a question. Oh yeah. Go. So now that you're, you're, you're in Atlanta right now, and then you're, you're planning to go back to Chicago. What's what's the deal on how I'm just so curious on how you are your take on the whole showcased experience and how in your, in your, um, yeah. What is your take on that? Because that's such a big part of the fourth year. We've talked to so many people through the year. Okay. So tell us about your whole philosophy beyond that showcase.
(01:01:37):
Yeah. I mean, yeah. I want to answer your questions sometimes I can just word vomit
(01:01:47):
[inaudible].
(01:01:48):
So to me, it's the same philosophy that I share about zoom plays and digital, like, no one's watching it. Right. That's how I feel. No, one's watching it. Like just let's be real. Um, no, one's about to go on the theater school website and click through all the exam kids and watch eight minutes. No, one's doing that. Um, innovate and maybe I'm being a little pessimistic. I see myself being a realist in it though. I don't want to do that. Um, so
(01:02:20):
I don't know, but maybe, maybe someone out there,
(01:02:23):
There couldn't be me though, you know? But like, I think that through that, I love, I love traveling. I just love going to different places. I traveled my whole life. Both of my grandmothers worked for United airlines flights around my blood. Um, and so I thought, but you know, what's so crazy. Freshman year I came in, you know, everyone's talking about showcase. It's like, Oh, I'm coming to theater school because in the fourth year we get to showcase and the showcase gets me an agent. And then I'll launch me my freshman year. I knew, I was like, how are you putting all that pressure on showcase? I'm just not doing it. I'm not, I, I refuse to be disappointed because I get, you know, expectations lead to disappointment. And so sometimes, and so I was like, a lot of my classmates put all this expectation on this thing. And to me, I was like, I just want to go to LA and kick it. I want to go to New York and kick it. I'm not worried about an agent that's going to work itself out. You know? And so now the way that it's working, yeah. I have a partner, we have a scene, I have a solo thing, but my heart's not in it because also I already have representation. God is good. Uh, I've recently just signed with Stewart talent in Chicago. Congratulations. Thank you. And so it's also like, now I'm like,
(01:03:43):
Well, shoot. Like,
(01:03:44):
I mean, you know, it's kind of just too, and my partner has representation. She signed by gray. And so we're both in it kind of like, and also just the real, the reality of it is
(01:04:01):
I just feel, it has been more difficult. A lot of my white peers had their content or seep scenes ready it's because it's like, that's the content we've been doing throughout the four years is you are content and you feel like your voice. You've gotten to say what you need to say. I was a Rwandan I'm from Atlanta. I have two. So it's been a little more difficult for me to find a script that I feel like represents what I have to say. Um, so through that process, my partner and I, we were like, can we make an original piece? Like we just have so much more to present than Mike. And it's like, we fell into, we did like Tarell, Alvin McCraney. We found this. And it's like, those pieces are cool, but like, we're just on this cutting edge of like new work that we aren't really in tune with because the theater school is not in tune with it.
(01:04:55):
So we don't have the scripts because they don't have the scripts. So for showcase, it's just been this kind of like, okay, we know you think we're great, but like, we don't, you want us to choose this thing from these shows or these plays that just really don't represent us. Um, and so it's been kind of difficult to like find some things. And, but both my partner and I, we just got so overwhelmed and stressed out with it. Cause all of us are now looking forward. We're like, okay, post-graduation what is going to be the, so like we just settled. We were like, let's just do this little script for the showcase. Like, and have it be there. We signed already. It's cool. Like let's just do it. So it's that sucks. That breaks my heart, that we don't see it as something that's this pivotal moment. Cause it's theater school. That's like your Herat, that's your closure. Um, but to me, I was, I just looked forward to traveling with my class to New York and LA, like that was the fun, that was what was going to be in it for me, just that experience of traveling with your class. Um, and having that taken away, men, heart heartbreaking. Um, but you know, we, we, we, we make it through, we're finding a way
(01:06:05):
I feel like it is. So, um, the fact that you weren't placing so much pressure on the showcase is a huge gift because everyone, we talked to most people and myself included my showcase experience was a nightmare, a nightmare because I put so much pressure on myself and then self-sabotage, it was just were. So the idea that what I get from you is that you're focused on the work, doing the work, making the art versus getting somewhere. And it, it it's it's so it's in my 45 year old brain. I'm like, that's so going to serve you. That's so gonna serve you keep returning to the work and not the outcome of will someone love me when I stand up here and do this piece from whoever wrote it, you know? Oh, it's my,
(01:06:57):
Yeah. And can I speak to in, like we were talking about earlier, like it took my spiritual awakening too. Like I had an idea of that my freshman year. I was like I said, I've always been connected to spirit, but like when the pandemic happened, everything just says like all the things that were like unaligned became like, okay, like get aligned because there were still, I have, so I have self-sabotage tendencies as well, especially when I focus when I overthink it, when I just, when I'm in my head so much. And like, I truly think a lot of actors, we have to really be honest with ourselves about why we do what we do. And it's like, it's okay for you to say, I want to be famous. That is okay to be, that was my reason, but it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable. It's like, I just think transparency is key.
(01:07:48):
And I think a lot of times actors, we get into this, like I want to change the world with my Aria, blah, blah, blah. Okay. What is it? What do you really want? You want the applause? Okay, cool. That's what your focus is on. Now we do, you can still do this thing, but let's shift the focus and see if it still works. You know? So I feel like a lot of actors, a lot of times we got self-worth issues that throughout I've worked with so many artists and actors, we, I, I don't, I've met so many people. And what we share is like an anxiety about life, a self, like this, like void avoid that we're trying to fill this self-worth issue. And I'm like, that needs to be to me in curriculum a little bit, because we got a lot of you. We have a lot of broken artists.
(01:08:38):
I was a broken artist and I had to placement, literally glue myself together. And cause I don't think, you know, it's so much more fruitful when you're whole and you can come to the work. Then when the work makes you whole, I guess like, Oh my God, it's just so much more fruitful. And so, um, sometimes, um, I'm now in a place where like, because I was separated from all my Chicago friends and I was forced to be in alone mode and hermit mode. I go back to Chicago and I still see my friends kind of squirming a little bit like, Oh, like, cause their self-worth is still like a little like, and now I'm like, I don't, I don't know. Like you just, you got to love yourself. You just got to love yourself and you gotta trust. You know, you have to it's imperative.
(01:09:26):
And the thing that you said about pursuing fame, not being sustainable, not only is it not sustainable, but you have zero control over whether or not you're famous. You only have control over whether or not you're doing something that may or may not lead to you being famous down the line. And if you achieve fame and you don't have self self-worth, that is a recipe for early substance abuse problems. Yeah. Depression, anxiety, the whole, the whole kit and caboodle. So I have kind of a dumb question nowadays, if like you're signed with a Chicago agency, but does that mean you're planning to stay in Chicago or are you going to be kind of all over the place depending on where the work is?
(01:10:04):
Yeah. So I see myself and they told me that Stewart is in Chicago, Atlanta, LA in New York. And so we've kind of discussed because I think I want to stay in Atlanta. Um, and cause you know, everything's here, everything's filming here. Um, it's home. The weather's great. I just love Atlanta. Um, so I feel like it would be a good place for me to really start my stuff for the things that I want to do. Um, Chicago shoots maybe like seven shows there, you know, seven, eight, you know? And so we discussed, they were like, yeah, well, once we signed, we can introduce you to the office down there. But also we're going to find stuff for you everywhere. And they're like, we were going to look into Atlanta, LA Australia. And if we feel like you're good for it, we'll send it to you.
(01:10:53):
So they, we have, we have an understanding of, and I also have flight benefits. Like I said, both my grandmothers were to United so I can fly. Like literally if they texted me today and it was like being in Chicago, not only do I have a free flight, but I got somewhere to stay, I'll stay with my grandma. I don't have to pay for it. So, um, it's truly a blessing. God really has worked in my, um, and you know, um, moving on to this next chapter, like that's something that I think I, like I said, I love traveling. I don't mind, I love the plane. I will hop on, hop off. I'll I'll do it. Um, so they're open to that. They love that. I love that. Um, so I'm excited to see where it goes.
(01:11:35):
It's really so lovely to talk to somebody who's right in the thick of it. And your energy is infectious. And I have no doubt that you have so much to offer the world where can people find you?
(01:11:47):
Absolutely. They can follow me on Instagram at Justin, J U S S T E N as well as my YouTube, uh, Justin Ross, J U S T E N R O S S. But truly Instagram is the best way. If you go to Instagram as a link in my bio, there's a link treats all of my content, all of my Apple music stuff, all my Spotify stuff.
(01:12:09):
Thank you so much for doing this is fantastic. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina Polizzi are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina [inaudible] for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: The Villages, doing drugs late in life, people named Dennis.
Let Me Run This By You: Do you have evidence of the benefits of letting go? Seeing what the nets bring in.
Interview: We talk to John Cabrera about transitioning from art to theatre, auditioning at Juilliard and TTS with the dramatic monologue du jour (Equus), the casting pool, mushroom mishaps, Merrily We Roll Along, The Lovers.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1 (00:00:08):
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? People with problems, visibly proud with my heart and my eyes.
Speaker 2 (00:00:35):
Well, speaking of old people, you've got a watch. Tell me about this. I looked it up and I'm like, what is even happening here? Okay. Do you know what The Villages are? The Villages is a retirement community in Florida. It's the largest retirement community, definitely in the United States, maybe in the world. I'm not sure. And it has 130,000 people live there. Oh, dictated. Well, it's not technically gated, but it's considered a gated community and they made a documentary. Apparently the guy who made it, it's very young. He's not on social media. I can't find him. Lawrence Oppenheimer or Lance, Lance Oppenheimer, Oppenheimer, Oppenheimer anyway, beautifully shot documentary, but also just fascinating. It Chronicles these three or four people, including a couple where the, the husband decided, I guess maybe later in life that he wanted to start using drugs because he wanted to expand his mind.
Speaker 2 (00:01:38):
And they never got, they never really drilled down on the drugs that he was using, but he got arrested for having marijuana and a $5 worth of cocaine. Oh, he was doing drugs. He was really doing drugs. And, but he was my favorite because his whole thing is he just wanted to get to a spiritual place quickly. That is amazing. And so there's these amazing shots of him. One of them, everybody drives golf carts everywhere. And one of these shots, he's just screaming, driving headlong into a sprinkler in his, uh, golf cart. Cause he wanted the feeling of the sprinkler on his face. Um, I love him already. I love him. He's amazing. Although it did make me think twice because I've always said if I live to be 90 or 95, I'm going to start doing heroin because you know, I'm going to go out anyway and I would never do it otherwise, but this is making me rethink it because it really took a toll on his wife.
Speaker 2 (00:02:37):
She was really, you know, she said he was always eccentric, but then he, he became downright unusual. He became William S Burroughs William S Burroughs. Yeah. By the end of the documentary, he had stopped doing the drugs. You imagine if he's dead, he becomes a recovering addict. Like he's, he's like 85 years old. Um, so that was one couple. And then there was a, uh, uh, Oh my God, there's this man. Of course his name is dentist. Every, every dentists out there as a ne'er do well, this guy didn't live in the villages. He lived in his van and he was hoping to snag a rich lady so that his whole thing was about, and there's this scene and it's just so poetic. He's lying to, I dunno how this, uh, cinematographer got in the van lying down on the makeshift bed in his van, looking up, no shirt on, looking up at the ceiling saying, you know, I just want a good looking gal. Who's he must have said it three times a good looking gal. Who's easy on the eyes who won't embarrass me
Speaker 3 (00:03:49):
God. And I'm like. Call of you. You live in a van down by the river, in the van.
Speaker 2 (00:03:54):
And you're saying that you need a woman. I mean, you don't even have this woman. You don't even know this woman and you're already criticizing her for embarrassing. You, he, he finally finds one of these women that he had known before and she knows the deal. She knows he just wants a place to live. And he starts saying, it seems to be going right. And then he starts saying, listen, you can either have comfort or freedom. And I just don't know if I can be, uh, I don't, I don't know who to be tied down.
Speaker 3 (00:04:26):
Oh God, go get back in your van and get the hell out of here.
Speaker 2 (00:04:29):
Is that us go drive that van off of a short pier? I mean, the world does not need another
Speaker 3 (00:04:36):
Dennis. No, no. Dennis, Dennis is a great movie. I think you would really like it. I'm going to watch it. I was, I was, I'm going to watch it last night. And then I thought, Oh, I better write. So I did write something, but, but, but I love the idea and I love the idea of, and that's great fodder for scripts, right? Of, of a guy who lives in the he's a drug addict who decides to become a drug user at 84 or whatever, and decide, and then decides not so much like after he has some run-ins with the law, probably
Speaker 2 (00:05:11):
Friends with the law, they even had video of him in court. And the judge saying he was actually such a really nice guy, but he got real obstreperous in the court. And the judge said, you are the rudest person I have ever had to deal with because he decided that he was going to represent himself and just kept saying $5 worth of cookie. And it's only $5 for cocaine. And the judge is like, I don't care how many dollars it's it's a crime, sir. Anyway, it's worth watching. It's called it's for people who don't know it's called not just like heaven, not far from heaven, not heaven's gate,
Speaker 3 (00:05:52):
Some kind of having something like a little piece of heaven. It is called
Speaker 2 (00:05:59):
Some kind of heaven. So you had it
Speaker 4 (00:06:03):
Wonderful. Let me run this by you.
Speaker 3 (00:06:14):
So I was thinking about, um, this idea of letting go and seeing what the nets bring in. Okay. And I have done that for the last I've only done it for the last four days and the results are kind of astonishing. And like I was going to add, well yes, in terms of, so I said, you know what, I'm going to do that. And immediately my anxiety about not just writing, but acting started lessening. Cause I, you know, for, you know, this and listeners might, if they're, you know, whatever like that I have had struggled with, um, like, um, stage fright, you know? And, and as I said, I'm just going to let go and see what the nuts bring in. I've done a lot of work on myself and on my career, my anxiety about acting decreased in terms of my stage, thinking of negative fantasies about screwing up on set or something.
Speaker 3 (00:07:12):
Right. And then I got this audition for, um, a pilot that of course shoots in Chicago. And it's a recurrent character dude, crazy fun, but it really wants you to live in Chicago. And I'm not going to ladies and gentlemen, but I, but the character is this wild, crazy alcoholic mother. That is awesome. Anyway, the point is, do you have evidence in your life? So I have evidence now that when I quote, let go, and it's not even something I'm doing in the world, it's a mental shift. Do you have, uh, evidence for our listeners and for each other that when you have let go of the idea of something, something wonderful happens. That's my big, big question this morning. It's a big,
Speaker 2 (00:08:01):
It's a great question. And the, the automatic answer is yes. Although now I'm trying to comb my failing memory. That's another topic for another day for examples. Um, yeah, I mean, I just know that whenever I find myself with a stranglehold on something and I usually actually notice it physically, like I I'm physically tense trying to hold onto whatever it is that that's not where it is and I have to stop and I have to relax my shoulders and I have to take a deep breath. Um, so just in the overarching sense of even if I'm driving and I find myself, you know, it, it doesn't work and it's better just to, to, to relax and come back to your center. But it kind of does tie into the thing that I was going to run by you, which is about, can you cultivate? Because I, as we were you and I had an offline conversation about me feeling like I need to make up for lost time.
Speaker 2 (00:09:06):
And so I would say, I am not where you are with, with the, um, career stuff. I hope I, I hope I aspire to be where you are, because I think I'm still very much in the frame of mind of like, it's not happening fast enough. It's not going, it's not going, it's not shooting up in the right direction. It's not, it's not, it's not instead of what it is, which is going great. Actually, you know, like it was only one year. We only started this podcast like three months ago, four months ago, we only started writing together a year ago, a little over a year ago. So like why the rush? But I do feel, I do feel this pressure of rush. I think I mostly feel it because I feel guilty that I'm spending all of this time working on something that is not earning me any money. There you go. The same time as my husband is going to work every day, working as hard as he possibly can so that I can be at home working for no money. I feel a lot of guilt about it.
Speaker 3 (00:10:15):
That makes sense. I, that is a real thing. And I, that has to contribute right to the making up for lost time feeling. Um, I also think that it's interesting. I see the story that comes to mind and we can totally cut this if you're like, no way. Bosworth is the story of your was then your boyfriend. And now your husband's showing up in a fedora with a cigar in the rain. Once you had let go of the idea of being in a relationship with him. And he came back in the middle of the night. I have this, a story in my head about that because it's very combative.
Speaker 2 (00:11:03):
No, it's completely true. It was raining. He was wearing a fedora. He knocked on my door and the, there wasn't quite the middle of the night. It was really late at night unannounced. I had no idea. And I had been, yeah, he broke up with me. I was devastated for two weeks. And then I just went on a tear. I started dating left right. And center. And I think that's what he thought he was going to do. And instead he just started regretting his decision and yeah. And as soon as I let go of him, he showed up
Speaker 3 (00:11:36):
And then, and then there's the choice, right? So like when we let go of something and it shows back up, do we choose to let it in? Or do we say actually no I'm. And I think that that's also a very interesting thing. It's like when I do let go of my stranglehold on my, at an audition, a big audition or something, whatever comes back, do I, how do I am, do I embrace it? Do I, how do I approach it? And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this. Self-tape it's going to be super what it is. This character's really, really great in some ways. And I love it and I'm going to do it, but I could say, you know what, I'm going to choose not to. It's just interesting to see when the nets come back in, do we throw the fish back out to the sea or do we eat the fish
Speaker 2 (00:12:23):
Well, but wait a minute, why would you be seeing what the nets bring in and then be rejecting?
Speaker 3 (00:12:29):
I think that's also a product of fear. Like a lot of times I see I've seen with people around me and former clients and things like that, that the thing that they, if they haven't, if we haven't really worked on an issue, if I haven't really addressed the issue of why the fear's there in the first place or something, I'm, I'm apt to sabotage it. When the nets bring in good fish, I'm apt to say those fish aren't big enough. They're not good enough. They don't smell. Right. And instead, now I'm really at 46 taking me to 46 to be like, no, I like what this, you know, I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm going to accept the fish that comes back in my net. People are gonna be like, what is wrong with Jane? Why is she obsessed with fish? But the point is the stranglehold, right? The stranglehold is real tempting because we're a do-do society. And, um, especially as women, especially as all kinds of things you could say, especially for, but what I'm saying is for me and what you did too, you thought, Oh, well, when the, the fish came back in the middle of the night wearing a fedora, you were like, you, did you have to think about it? Or was it an immediate thing?
Speaker 2 (00:13:40):
Uh, Lauren collection is that he, I invited him inside to talk and I was just like, listen, whatever. I don't remember the content, but I said, here's what went wrong or, and here's, and I'm kind of moving on. Um, I think it came down to, he just said, will you give me another chance? I mean, I think he was very, uh, earnest about the fact that he was owning up to the fact that he let me go, not the other way around and that he,
Speaker 3 (00:14:13):
Yeah, he made a mistake. That's a great thing that he was able to do because can you imagine if pride or whatever had gotten in the way of that, try and look, you could have said no way. You could have said, I'm, I'm done with this, but it worked out and it, thank gosh it did, but I just, you know, it's being open, I guess, being open to things, looking a different way than I think they should look
Speaker 2 (00:14:37):
That for sure is I can really relate to my, my, having a tendency to reject some, that whole thing. I wouldn't be a part of any club that would have me as a member once somebody does accept me. I'm like, but why what's wrong with you that you want to accept me? And that's something I would very much like to get over me. I have the same thing. I don't have it to that degree with other things, but I can totally relate today on the podcast we have JP Cabrera, John Cabrera. John is a writer, a director, a performer, and a tech entrepreneur. And JP is just a near and dear old friend of mine. We had sort of lost touch over the last decade or two and we're, we've reconnected. And I think when you listen to this interview, you're going to know exactly why I think he's so hilarious and special and wonderful. So please enjoy our interview with John Cabrera. Oh, interesting. I loved how you tied monetization right there at the end. Very
Speaker 5 (00:15:55):
Good.
Speaker 2 (00:15:58):
Anyway, congratulations, John Cabrera, you survived theater school.
Speaker 5 (00:16:05):
I did. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:16:08):
So most, most people that we talked to really haven't thought very much about theater school in the last 20 years, but you are really close with a bunch of people who you went to school with. So that might not be the case for you.
Speaker 5 (00:16:23):
Oh, it is the case. I, I really haven't thought much about theater school at all. I mean, I don't think any of us do we're, we're all, we're all, you know, I mean, we're all really close friends still. We see each other all the time and like, might we might throw out a theater school reference like once every three or four years.
Speaker 2 (00:16:42):
Wow. Okay. All right. Yeah, because your relationship has totally evolved and it's it's. Yeah,
Speaker 5 (00:16:47):
Not really. No. I mean, even after theater school, we like, you know, we, we, a bunch of us started a theater company together and then everybody went off to Los Angeles and then that our identity kind of was shaped by. But the things that we were doing out here either individually, like, you know, the shows that we were trying to, that we were on or that we were, that we were working, um, yeah. That we were working on or the stuff that we were doing collectively, like, you know, making a short film or, or, uh, or you know, something doing a play. Um, well, we didn't really do any place, but you know, yeah. You got it.
Speaker 2 (00:17:24):
I get it. I get it. Did you audition for a bunch of schools? Did you always know you wanted to go to a conservatory? What was that whole?
Speaker 5 (00:17:31):
Okay, so I, so I went to a magnet school, uh, for commercial art. I auditioned for, uh, for, uh, uh, like odd to, I interviewed for magnet school in Miami for commercial art. That would take me away from my neck of woods. Um, and put me on the path to being an artist because as a kid, I liked to draw and, and, and all of that. And so I had like a little portfolio of stuff and we use that to get me into this magnet school. And I was there for ninth and 10th grade. Uh, my area of the city ninth grade actually was the last year of middle school. But in this other area of the city, it was the first year of high school. That was a little odd. So all my friends were still in middle school and I was like going to this high school.
Speaker 5 (00:18:22):
I was there for ninth and 10th grade. Um, and I found very, I, I discovered very quickly that I was, that I was not anywhere close to as good of an artist as every other kid there in the class with me. And so that kind of bugged me a lot, you know, I just, I felt, I just didn't feel, I just didn't feel good enough. And while I was, and then I also like, you know, really missing my friends a lot, you know, because I was going to this other school and, but then, you know, afterschool and on the weekends, I was hanging out with all the people from, and I was making new friends at the school, but it was just really, it was tough. And in my 10th grade, like in 10th grade, I took just randomly a drama class. Um, just as one of the electives, like a CRE, like in ninth grade I had taken a creative writing class and, um, really like the teacher.
Speaker 5 (00:19:19):
And then in ninth and 10th grade, she was teaching a drama class. So I took her drama class and I just really fell in love with it and felt like I was really good at it. So big thing. Right. Because I felt like I wasn't very good at this thing that I was there at there, or I, it wasn't that I didn't think I was very good. I just didn't think I was nearly as good as of these other people. So I just felt like I was at the back of the pack, but in this drama class, I really like, I felt like I was, I was good at it. And, um, and I really enjoyed it. My sister also sort of side note to it. My sister is, uh, is, uh, was well, he was a dancer and was up in ballet for very long time.
Speaker 5 (00:20:01):
So she, at this time was a little girl in ballet school and they were doing a production of the Nutcracker tracker and they needed boys to play townspeople. So I did that and then got my first taste of like a massive auditorium of people applauding you. Right. So that nixed with like this drama class that I was taking. And at the end of my S my 10th grade year, I was like, I don't want to go here anymore. Like, I want to go back to, I want to go back to like my real high school. And I, you know, I want to see all my friends and, and, and I kind of want to do theater now. And my mom, of course, we had pumped a lot of money into the whole art thing was disappointed, a little resistant at first, but then was like, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 5 (00:20:48):
So I moved back to, so I went back to my normal high school and I got really, really into that drama department there, which was like a really big, kind of big deal. Like the school won a lot of awards, went to these big theater conferences and all of that stuff. So it was actually really like suddenly really exciting. And I created, there was this little community that I, I, um, sort of was a part of there. And so by the end of high school, I was just so clear that that's what I wanted to do. And my, my, like I was set on Julliard, right. Like a lot of the, um, you know, the high school kids I'd like, that was my thing. My sister at that point was already not, uh, she was already living in New York and she was dancing at the school of American ballet, which is right next door to Juilliard.
Speaker 5 (00:21:38):
So in my mind it was kind of like, Oh my gosh, perfect. I'm going to like, go move to New York. And, and now my sister like will be like right next door or the dorm room next to me and all of this stuff, just like really like, imagine that. And so I, so I like audition so that, and then I also got started getting like, you know, uh, I got DePaul sent something in the mail and if the college sends something in the mail, and so there was a big, there was going to be like a big, uh, audition in New York city for all of those different schools. And so I, uh, and so, yeah, my mom, like, you know, we, we went to New York and, and, uh, and audition for all of them Juilliard included, which was like the one that I really wanted to get into. And yes, I do. That's why I'm laughing. Uh, so I, you know, for Juilliard, I had to, I had to prepare a Shakespeare piece and I think also a contemporary piece for DePaul and Ithaca. It was just a contemporary piece. And so the contemporary piece that I picked was from, was a monologue from that play Equis, um, which like, you know, back then was just like, Oh, that's super you're, you're like really cutting edge there. You, you know, doing Equis, like every, uh, every like third kid did Equis for,
Speaker 6 (00:23:10):
I think it's come up actually three times. So, so, so
Speaker 5 (00:23:14):
I did act with it, but then for my Shakespeare piece, um, I, I did Mark Anthony from Julius Caesar and, uh, I went into my Juilliard audition and I did it. And, um, I didn't, I didn't know, you know, British accent,
Speaker 6 (00:23:37):
Very, very,
Speaker 5 (00:23:38):
Very, and effective. And I mean, I'm going to just tell you right now, it was awesome. Like, I'm sorry, I'm like, I'm going to say it. It was a good monologue and it was awesome and I was in it to win it. And, and I w and it was a really thick British accent, and I finished it and they looked at me and they were like, um, very nice. Could you please do it again without the British accent?
Speaker 6 (00:24:13):
And that's exactly what they did today. That's so funny. That's exactly what they did.
Speaker 5 (00:24:19):
I did it again without the British accent, which of course I couldn't do. Like, like I, like I had practiced it so much with a British accent that suddenly I was 18 year old, John Cabrera insecure, nervous, John Cabrera as Mark Anthony. Like, you know, I can't even remember the actual Lord, but just imagine me, my voice, not doing anything Shakespearian in any way, delivering this. And it was just like, it was just disastrous, you know, I came out of there. I was like, you know, all of these months that I had been preparing and so excited and convinced that I'm going to Julliard my sister, I'm going to be right there. And, um, and I was just crushed. And then of course, like, you know, they put the list up on the wall. That's the first, you know, it was my first experience with a list up on the wall kind of thing, and did not see my name on there and was just like, just crushed. And, and then
Speaker 6 (00:25:23):
Was that callbacks, was that, so did they do callbacks?
Speaker 5 (00:25:28):
No. No. They did call backs within that audition. I wasn't on the list of callbacks even. Right. Like it was, it was really like, yeah, like the Brit, the British guy that I did, like that guy probably, yeah.
Speaker 6 (00:25:41):
That guy graduated,
Speaker 5 (00:25:45):
But, um, but John Cabrera was not on that list. And so, uh, so I was, you know, I mean, yeah, of course I, you know, I was
Speaker 6 (00:25:53):
Just sad and, um,
Speaker 5 (00:25:56):
You know, I, I like walked like, like back to the hotel where my mom was waiting and I was just like, got there. I think I like just broke down in tears, like immediately. Um, and then I think it was either the neck, I think it was the next day or something like that was the bigger audition that was like the consortium audition that was going to be like for all of these different schools, which ethical was one and DePaul was another Jim also Hoff was the, was the person auditioning me. And, um, I did Equis and, and it was good and I, you know, it was good and he, and I could tell that he really liked it. And, um, and, uh, I think he gave me a note, you know, to adjust it. And I took the note and I did it. And, you know, I mean that, that piece works really well for like an 18 year old, you know, like it just like, if I think that if you had any chops as an actor and you did a young monologue from some play, or you were playing your age, you probably had a really, really, really like a much higher chance of getting, um, getting into those schools.
Speaker 5 (00:27:00):
And if you tried to do well, Mark Anthony from, from Julius Caesar. Um, so, uh, and then, and then I got back and, you know, and then all of the, kind of like sadness of like the, the, the, um, of the Juilliard thing was replaced by like a real, a lot of excitement, because then I got an acceptance letter from, uh, from both Ethica and, um, and DePaul. And in fact, the person from Ethica was really pushing hard for me to go there. They really wanted me to go there. Um, but it was the difference between going to like a little small, like a small college town versus going to a city. And I went and I visited Chicago, and I was just like, it was sort of the closest thing to what I imagined my life would be if I was living in New York. And, and so I was just like, I want, I just, I want to go here. Like, this is great.
Speaker 2 (00:27:57):
When you were talking about saying that your audition was good and like you would, to this day, you, you really stand behind it. That just brought on this flood of memories of conversations that I would have with you were just be arguing with me about a note that somebody,
Speaker 5 (00:28:18):
Oh, yeah. That, well, that has not changed. That's me. That's me. That's like my life, that's my life. Not just, that's not even just a creative thing. That's like my life with my wife on, on, on issues, on domestic issues. Um, yeah, I mean, that's me, I'll never, I'll never change. I'll always be somebody that's constantly like pushing back.
Speaker 2 (00:28:44):
It's good to know who you are. It's good to just, you know, self be self-possessed. So then when you were, so you really, weren't the typical kid who like, wanted to be an actor your whole life and had a bunch of experience with it. So then what did you think day one week one, what did you think of the training
Speaker 5 (00:29:06):
Of the theater school? Yeah. Um, well, I guess when I first got there, I was really enamored by it all. Um, you know, I'd never really had that kind of training or that kind of, you know, that I'd never had that experience, but, you know, in a high school, it was like, you know, you do some, a little bit of like theater games stuff, but mostly you're like, mostly you're doing plays, you're getting ready for some big play, you know? So it just felt very, um, I don't know, I felt I was a part of some special club of people who were, who had this like, secret for how to become an artist. And, you know, all of these different, all these different teachers at the, at the school all had like one little, one little piece of that larger secret to give you, um, I was quite enamored by it, I'd say in that, in that first, uh, in that, well, let's just, let's say maybe that first trimester or two, um, then, then I'd say by the end of the, of the year, things start to get a little wacky, um, maybe even like by the second trimester, you're starting to, like, you're starting to get a little worn out by the repetition of it all.
Speaker 5 (00:30:29):
You're starting to get a little annoyed by the same tricks that you're seeing all of your, your fellow classmates doing. And then of course, I mean, I'm sure you've talked about this with everybody, but then when the warning aspect of them, and then, then things just start to really get walkie and people start really competing with one another, whether they're consciously competing or unconsciously competing, it just starts to get really, really weird. And that first year, I mean, you know, they cut like, you know, when we were there, they cut so many people. And a lot of those people were just like, you know, like they were part of the whackadoodle of it. All right. There were just some people there that were just like, what are, what is your, what are you doing here? Or like, not even from a talent right. Perspective, more like, like where do you come from?
Speaker 5 (00:31:22):
Um, and, and then, yeah, it's just like so much weirdness. And I think that, that, to me, it felt like a little bit like their am, their Mo for who they chose was like, kind of throwing a lot at the wall and seeing what sticks. And so you also start to feel like, gosh, am I, am I just like something that was thrown at the wall? And like, will I stick or not? Right. Rather than, rather than was I actually chosen because they thought I was truly, truly talented, you know? Um, so that kind of gets in your head a bit, um, you know, outside of the theater school and memory, we're also going to a university which had its own separate thing dynamic outside of the theater school. Right. Which is like the dormitories filled with like lots of people who are not theater school related and all of the community interaction that you have going there. Um, the proximity, the distance, the sheer distance from those dormitories to the theater school. Um, I came from my, I was from Miami, so I had never experienced a winter like that in my life. Um, so, and we should tell,
Speaker 2 (00:32:37):
We should tell our audience that winter, that we started theater school was the worst winter Chicago had had in 20 years. And there was multiple, multiple days where the news would say, don't go outside.
Speaker 5 (00:32:51):
I know that it's like hazardous for your health,
Speaker 2 (00:32:55):
Except separate trucking to muse music to move it to music with art, with like a, like a self portrait we had to bring in. And it was like snowing. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:33:07):
Well, I, haven't got, I developed this habit of like taking my showers in the morning before school, like all throughout high school. And, and, uh, and so I would always kind of arrive to school with like slightly wet hair and, and at the theater school, the distance you'd have to walk. I would arrive to the theater school, like with a helmet. Like my head was completely, completely frozen, you know? I mean, that's just one example of just like the weirdness that I was thrown into. Like I used to like walk in the school with like ice all over my head, which I never really experienced that before. Um, and, uh, and so, I mean, it was just all wild, you know, and, and like, I experimented with drugs for the first time in my life, uh, there that fresh that first year. Um, I had, uh, I had a mental breakdown, um, uh, in the LA in the second half, I guess, of, of that year.
Speaker 5 (00:34:17):
I, um, that was actually, um, that was actually inspired or it was jump-started I guess, by the drugs that I had been taking. Um, I, uh, I was, I was re like my roommate at the time who, uh, who just, I became really, really close to during my years at that the school, certainly during that first year. But, um, throughout most of my time at the school, um, he was not at the theater school. He was in the music school. Um, but he sort of opened me to so many like, like music, like I just like my whole, like music Renaissance began. Like, I I'm like some kid from Miami suburbs. Like all I listened to was top forties and suddenly I'm like listening to the Smith. So I'm listening to all of this, like apex twin and all of this, like new stuff. That's just like changing my world and start smoking pot. And then at a certain point, decide that I want to start doing mushroom. And I just like, just my first mushroom experience, I just shout out like a huge satchel of mushroom and
Speaker 2 (00:35:33):
He didn't have anybody telling you how to
Speaker 5 (00:35:35):
Do it. So suffice to say, I had a whole Rendez trip that then sort of broken, can we mentally for the rest of that year? I, I was, I had like high anxiety all year. I was really like, like, just having all of these, like new thoughts about like, just all these existential thoughts that I'd never had before, as it's like kid from the suburbs, like, you know, just all kinds of stuff. And, and it was also having a very difficult time, um, even incorporating any of this new stuff into my, into the education there at the school. Like I was actually having a hard time. I was having a hard time functioning really. And, and, um, and I was in the sh I should add, because I feel like this kind of is related somehow, but I was in Rick Murphy's, uh, improv class.
Speaker 5 (00:36:34):
Right. But you either have Kali or you had Murphy. And I had Murphy and Rick was a very intimidating man. I know that people who are, who have colleagues said something similar about him, but Rick was, was intimidating. I feel in a different way because I developed a relationship with Al colleague as well. Um, which was sort of related to, um, I CA I, I got to know him in my sat in the second year. I S w with Rick. I really felt a lot of those feelings that I mentioned that I was feeling when I was back at that commercial art school. A lot of that was coming back in my class. I felt like I wasn't good enough for him that I, you know, like, and it really was getting me down, like in a, in a bad way. And then I, you add to it as whole, like mental breakdown thing that I had.
Speaker 5 (00:37:28):
And I was just, I was just, I felt like I was just worthless, um, in regards to like the school and convinced that I would be caught, um, because I had gotten more. And, um, and I just couldn't find my stride at all. And then at the end of that year, you do your first, right? Because up until then, all you're doing is improv, which I just couldn't do. I couldn't get my head into it. You know, I just, I, I always was too, just thinking too much, you know? Um, yeah, yeah. That first year it gets better though. Um, so at the end of that year, we do scenes and I picked this scene, the Sam Shepard scene kind of small play, the smallest Sam Shepard play that. I can't remember what it was called right now, but it was this really weird abstract play.
Speaker 5 (00:38:21):
And me Eric's later and I did it, and it was super weird and super crazy. And partly maybe because of how sort of messed up I was mentally at the time, I just, I just clicked into it, like clicked into it in a way that was just like the first thing that I did there at the school and the full year that I've been there that I thought was like really impressive. And I felt it. And Rick was like, Whoa. And later he called me to his office and he basically told me like, no, like no subtle terms. He said like, I, I like you'd be gone if it wasn't for that scene. I did not think that you have that in you like, right. Which kind of was a little freaky to hear. Um, but that, you know, it was sorta, that was also, I learned Rick Murphy's way of complimenting people through, through like, you know, through a sort of strange, uh, I don't think he was trying to be mean, he's just, he's so Frank, he, on that stuff, I think he was, he was being honest. So the next year, uh, you know, that's the year of the scenes and Rick Murphy chose, like chose me to be in his, in his workshop. The one that, you know, in, in the one that he was doing, which was like also like, Oh my gosh, like I thought he, he didn't like me. And, you know, and it was really that scene that I did at the end of his first year that got me to do that. That was the adding machine.
Speaker 5 (00:39:58):
Right. And you remember, so the adding machine, and then I had that monologue that like that monologue, that big monologue there. And, um, and he, and, and he was really, really pleased with what I did there so much so that he in front of everybody, like kind of gushed at my performance with gummy, super embarrassed, you know, but I've colleagues saw the adding machine and then came up to me afterwards and was like, I want you to join my improv first year improv class and come in. Right. And of course, I'm thinking I'm not good at improv. Like I, like, I that's, that was the part that I sucked at, you know, it wasn't until the scene came in, they did, but I was so like, you know, excited that he, that he wanted me to be a part of that, that of course I did it. And it was an app colleagues' class that I understood that I started to understand what improv actually was. And I actually kind of like started doing like these really great, um, improv scenes and whatnot. I don't, I don't think I ever really loved, like, found a love for improv, but I certainly suddenly understood it that I, I didn't really understand it. Um, during that first year with Rick,
Speaker 2 (00:41:07):
Were you the husband and adding machine? The guys?
Speaker 5 (00:41:12):
Um, I w I was missed, I wasn't Mr. As well. We were all Mr. Zeros. Like, there were like five Mr. Z. Like he basically took Mr. Zero and he broke it into all these different things. And I got, I got Mr. Zero's big monologue, which, I mean, I'll be honest. Like I kind of lucked out there. Right. Because I got to, like, I got to just chew up scene. Right. Like I got to do, like, had any of the other guys there gotten a Jeff Brown, got a Mister zero. Like if they'd gotten that they would have also gotten to like, completely chew up the scene and like just, you know, made waves there. So that was like, I was sort of lucky there. I think that Rick gave me that largely because of the scene from the year before I also got the fixer, which was this other, like, weird, like character that appears in there. And that was also super fun and super stylized. Um, but yeah, uh, that,
Speaker 2 (00:42:07):
Can I just interject what I remember about your mystery zero? It was heartbreaking there was something breaking about it in the best part. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (00:42:15):
Because yeah, because it's the part of the play where Mr. Zero is like, is like begging he's, like, he's like begging for his existence really. Right. Because the adding machines about how, like, you know, sort of technologies coming in and taking away everybody's purpose and all that kind of stuff. So it's like, it's just like modeling and he's like begging for his existence. And, and, um, and I guess I was, I, I, I think I've always been able to like, tap into that, into that, um, sense of desperation and self-loathing
Speaker 2 (00:42:49):
Yeah. I have always wanted to do that play by the way. I, I, I stand in that place,
Speaker 5 (00:42:56):
Great time to do something like that. Right. Like the, the, the, the TA, like, I think that that play was written during the expressionists era, uh, period as a large response to industrialization and all of the effects that was having on society and the workforce. And we're seeing a, me, and that was like, turn of the century right now, we're turn of the new century. And we're seeing like, almost this, like, mirroring of what happened a hundred years, uh, ago happening with, with, um, information technology and the internet and, and, and, um, and how, once again, you know, what it means to what, what the workforce means is changing and what your place in the workforce is, and is changing and, and, and economic, um, disparity between, you know, classes and whatnot. So I feel like, I feel like somebody could do, well, you could do like a fateful rendition of it, but I think you could also probably do some sort of like interpretation, like new interpretation of it, or maybe there's even an opportunity for like a new revision of, of somebody that takes the old play and writes a new play where they just inject it, all of that, like adding machine stuff with like internet stuff instead, like tech, startups, and all.
Speaker 2 (00:44:13):
Hmm. Oh. And now it's in the public domain. Okay.
Speaker 5 (00:44:17):
Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. It's from the twenties. So it would be in the public domain. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:44:22):
That's very good. I appreciate that. Okay. So let's talk about show besides the adding machine, uh, other shows that you did, what your experiences good, good, and bad and ugly of the other shows.
Speaker 5 (00:44:39):
Uh, let's see. Um, I did detective story, which was w which was another workshop, um, that I thought that that was, uh, that was an enjoyable experience. I did, um, I did a Nick bowling piece, uh, which was the visit. Um, and I,
Speaker 2 (00:45:03):
Yeah,
Speaker 5 (00:45:04):
The visit was, I don't remember what I played in the visit. It was very ensemble show, but I really liked the show from like, uh, from just like, I like the writing. And I just liked the concept, everything about that show kind of keep me out, even though I don't think I had any role to play in it that was substantial. Like, I think, I want to say, like, Eric's later got like the lead role in that, or somebody got the lead role in that, that like, uh, like maybe Russell harden or something, and Anne Marie and Marie Welty had the main role. And then I think everybody else was just like town's person or something like that, which was a trend by the way, we all noticed. So it was a huge trend at the school. It was like two people who would get the actual role in the play and everyone else's beyond cycle.
Speaker 5 (00:45:47):
Um, problem. I think that was, that was a big problem that I think soured a lot of people. Um, uh, and that was, I think, a problem in choosing the plays, right? Like what plays were chosen and that goes down to like why the plays were chosen. And then, and then when you sort of like take you take that path down, it really leads to a professor who wanted to do that play, you know, perhaps perfect professionally and like, and so they've got this great little pool of Guinea pigs that they can use to, um, to, uh, justify their, their desire to do something, um, in a professional sense. That's, that's my sort of, uh, you know, in hindsight, looking back at it, my interpretation of that, Oh, whether I'm right or not, there's no question. It was a problem. I think that, um, that so many plates plays had these big ensembles with like two characters and even more so that a lot of the same people were playing those two characters.
Speaker 5 (00:46:47):
Right. Uh, people who had a look about them, you know, that really lended well to leading man or leading woman. Right. Um, so, uh, there was that, um, Molly Sweeney, that was a play that I did that I absolutely loved. Um, Colleen cos robe and I were in that show together and I forgot who the other person was, but it was, I want to say it was a three person play. It was just three people doing monologues. And the monologues themselves sort of tied the story together about a woman who, uh, who was having cataracts removed, who had cataracts removed from both of our eyes, had made her permanently blind her entire life. And this new, this new surgery would give her sight again and doing so, uh, essentially made her crazy, like made her crazy because she wasn't prepared for all of the visual stimuli that came with sight after not having had it, her entire life.
Speaker 5 (00:47:50):
And, um, and I, I want to say that I, my character, the character I played was the doctor who did it. So there was like a lot of, you know, a lot of similar like themes of regret and self-loathing and all of this stuff that like, I felt like, you know, maybe it was that, that crazy thing that happened to me in my freshman year of school that allowed me to really like, just tap into that stuff really, really well. So, um, and then again, you know, came out of that, that show feeling like I had done something, um, really impressive that, that, that, that affected people. And of course that made me feel good. Um, Gina, you and I were in a show together, which the name of it, I want to S it totally eludes me, but it was where you and I met, actually, it was like, it was where you and I really became friends.
Speaker 5 (00:48:41):
Um, it was called LA the lovers, I think, or it's that British? Yes. With exact, I can't remember her name. She was French. She was actually French and British. She, cause I remember she would speak French and she was, I mean, she was speaking English most of the times and it was very British, but like, but she also had her husband was French and, um, and she, and we, we did that together. Um, that was an interesting, that was an interesting play because, uh, that was, uh, that was a workshop. Um, so of course workshops were like, you know, they're a sec, they were second or third class plays. Right. They were like, they were what you did not want to get when you wake up to that, you know, to that, that list on the inside of the, of the door and they called it the workshop, the workshop pool, it was just absolutely awful. Even just calling it that. Right. Just awful.
Speaker 6 (00:49:43):
Yeah. And, uh, and, and I remember, you know,
Speaker 5 (00:49:48):
Like always coming up to getting up to the door, seeing that I wasn't on a main domain state show that I was in the workshop pool, that I was, it wasn't even going to be a workshop that was in the black box. It was going to be an elementary school classroom. And, uh, and it was called the lovers. And, you know, I was, so I just walked into that, into that, um, into that experience, just, you know, as bitter as I had been about any of the other ones that I did, but, um, that director was really infectious. She was such a sweet woman and the play was cute and quirky and I,
Speaker 6 (00:50:24):
And
Speaker 5 (00:50:24):
That's right, Anne, uh, shoot forgotten her last name. And
Speaker 6 (00:50:28):
She directed for timeline, I think, cause I, her name has actually come up once before and I Googled her after that. It's she? Yeah. She still lives in Chicago and direct place.
Speaker 5 (00:50:40):
She was wonderful. I remember that, that, that whole experience and Wakefield. Right, right, right, right. Um, uh, and anyway, um, she sort of turned this experience that like, you know, a lot, both of you and I came into like annoyed and bitter at right. Um, into the, into this just very, like, just very lovely, um, charming, little, little play that, that, um, that we were all really proud of and that got like really great, um, feedback from everybody who saw it and you and I became friends during that play at first, I think we kind of, we bonded, we bonded in, you know, from that like annoyance of the whole experience perspective. And then by the end we really loved the play and we really were having fun. We were like, you know, a lot of joking in the green room. Um, I remember, uh,
Speaker 6 (00:51:35):
I'm sorry to interrupt you. But the thing that made that it was all about her. It was all about the director and it was all about the way she really, and truly treated us like the children that we were who needed nurturing. Like it, that's what I really, when it came down to, I mean, I understand why the theater school had this very like tough love, whatever approach, but at the same time, we really flourished with the nurturing.
Speaker 5 (00:52:05):
Absolutely. Absolutely 100%, 100%. I'll never forget. I'll never forget. Her husband came to opening night and he gave us a standing ovation, just her husband, like everyone stood up. And, uh, and um, I forget the, uh, I forget the French, uh, term that they used, like to, to, to lodge you with, with praise from the audience, but he was, he was doing that and, and, and I'll just never forget that. And it all, it sort of seemed to like be a part of that whole experience and, and a part of that nurturing thing that you're talking about from her. And, uh, and I really came out of that experience, very surprised by, um, by it, because I came into it very angry, very, very upset. And I was gonna say, I think, I think that like some of the, of the faculty, you know, may have sort of may have sort of taken that like the, you know, that experience that some of us had, like where we came in, you know, sort of bitter about something, but then came out like, I think some faculty would say, well, that's, that was part of it.
Speaker 5 (00:53:18):
That was part of the, the tough love, you know, whatnot. I don't believe that that's true. Like, I, I actually think that it was an, you know, like I think that, that, that it was something that we didn't often see there. Um, uh, you know, a lot of those workshops were, we have to remember with MFA students, so they were students too. Right. Like, so you were, how could you expect to get that kind of a nurturing experience from somebody who was only a few years older than you? Right. So special people like Anne were not that common, uh, in, in, in, in the, in the, uh, at least they're in the nineties when we were there. Um, in terms of those shows. So I'll say that,
Speaker 2 (00:54:05):
Yeah. I was going to say, before you jumped on, uh, Gina, well, I was just saying that my experience of John is that he was so, so funny that I said when we were on crew together, that this gentleman is going to be on a Saturday night live. Like I li I never laughed so hard in my life. And crew was a miserable experience, miserable, but you made it tolerable because I knew every day. So I'm wondering, were you in shows where you got to showcase that later on? Like you should have been the star of the show?
Speaker 5 (00:54:39):
Not really. Not really. I mean, you know, first of all, like I only was on the main stage twice and one of those two times I wasn't cast on the main stage. I was given a little, a little like small bit role in a main stage show. Uh, so, uh, so my first day, my only main stage experience at that school was in the chorus of merrily. We roll along. That was my only one. Yeah. And that was the one where Jean, I don't know if you remember, that was the one where you and I did where you helped me do this photo shoot that I did because, because, uh, Betsy Hamilton was the director and she had, you know, in, in, in the first week we had an, like an assignment as a, as the cast we had to come in and do some sort of, uh, some sort of a presentation to the rest of the cast about dreams and shattered dreams as she had.
Speaker 5 (00:55:42):
She had been, she, I remember she said, like she was walking to, she was walking to the school one day and she looked over to the side and she saw a mirror that was shattered in the glass, in the grass. And, and that was the impetus for this assignment that we all have a broken dreams. And of course at that point I was, you know, I'm in my, my last year at the school. I haven't had any single chance to shine on the main stage. My last opportunity now here is in this merrily, we roll along thing as a chorus member, you know, which would literally with literally just person in the background, dancing and singing in the chorus. Uh, and so I was just like, um, like, okay, I'll give you broken dreams. I'm going to give you some books.
Speaker 5 (00:56:33):
So I approached Gina, I approached GW who now we were like that last friends, because we had like, you know, we had, we'd gone through, uh, the lovers together and, and, and, uh, we both again experienced the defeat of being in the, in the workshop pool. Um, my reaction to that was a little different from Gina, but that's okay. The cat's out of the bag. Um, and, uh, and so I, I was like, Hey, I got an idea I want to do, I want to do this photo shoot where I want to sort of, um, through a series of, of images, I want to recreate my experience discovering that I was cast in merrily, we roll along.
Speaker 5 (00:57:26):
And so we did this whole photo shoot with me, like auditioning then me, like, yeah. And then be like walking up to the door, be looking to see where my name was, then me like falling into the door, sliding down the drone. And then, and then when I did it, that I had those photos developed and then I, I printed them all onto white fruit of the loom t-shirts that I got from Kmart. And I put all of them on one app for the other. And then I put like my main shirt over the top, and I showed up, you know, to that day. And people were looking at me like, what's, what's wrong with that guy? Like, there's something going on with JP as he put on some weight or, you know, cause I was like really puffy, you know? And then everyone was going around the room, they were going around the room, doing their thing, you know, and everyone was looking at me like, because everybody's got like dire Ramesses and all that stuff.
Speaker 5 (00:58:25):
And JPS just sitting there twiddling his thumbs and they're thinking there's something up with JP and, and also they're all, also some of them are thinking JP didn't do it. Like he didn't do. He like, he, he, you know, once again, just didn't bring in his assignment and he's going to come up with some excuse for why he doesn't have his work, you know? Cause that was also another trend with me is that I just didn't like doing homework. Um, and so they got to me and I stood up and I was like, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about this, you know, broken dreams thing. And you know, and I, I realize it's true that I do have a broken dream that I want to share with the class. And then I just proceeded to remove t-shirt after t-shirt and through the t-shirts to people. And cause everyone was dying, laughing, including Betsy Hamilton and they all wanted the t-shirts. Right. Like they, they were like, they were amazing, you know? So I'd like toss in people t-shirts across the room. By the time we got to the end of it. And like Betsy was like on the floor and of course she knew what I was saying, which was, I really, really, really don't want to be.
Speaker 5 (00:59:40):
But she also couldn't deny that like brilliant. I, you know, that I, that I, well, that she wanted that she, that she walked into that house and she walked into that, right?
Speaker 6 (00:59:51):
Yes. Oh, this is amazing. This is the best I've ever. And I can't believe, I didn't remember anything. I mean, I wasn't there for the presentation, but I, I, now I remember taking the third.
Speaker 5 (01:00:03):
Yeah. Um, and so then, and then, and then that show was, you know, that show never, I would never say God, like, you know, I never had like any epiphany, like, Oh wow. I should have, I shouldn't have given this such a, you know, a bad rap early on given her such a hard time. Hey, you know, in the end it was like, you know, I was in the course of merely rural long. It was, it was, it was pretty dumb. I don't think that I got much from that performance, but, but I really enjoyed my time goofing around on that show, which it was my first main stage show. I would have to imagine that this happened in every main stage show, um, which was just like people like mooning each other from the, like, from like the wings, you know, you know, just all kinds of weird stuff past the penny. People like any across the stage, you know, things that you just didn't do, you didn't use just didn't do them in the workshops because it just, it was too small to
Speaker 6 (01:01:00):
Yeah. You were backstage.
Speaker 5 (01:01:03):
Yeah. So that was my first opportunity to experience all that fun. Theatery goofiness that you get to experience at the reskin. And that was very enjoyable. And I I'm glad that I at least got to experience that once. I think there were some people,
Speaker 6 (01:01:18):
Somebody told us a story about you being Bradley Walker told us where you in sisterly fields. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:01:24):
That's the other one, which I was not cast in. I was not casting. That's the other one that I said I've been on in two, but the only one I was cast in was merrily. We roll along. I was the only one that was like technically a part of my actual casting. Um, I played major ligit in system of feelings, which is just a character who they talk a lot about throughout the play. And then at a certain point in the play, because there's like one of the six or three different, you know, outcomes of, of this is that they go to this race that this big, like this big outdoor lawn race that they've been talking about in previous, in previous acts. And so if you happen to go in one of the directions, you actually get to see that race. And they've been talking about major ligit throughout the piece.
Speaker 5 (01:02:15):
And if you happen to see that one thing with the race major ligit has a very, very small like role where he just runs slowly. He's like an old man. He runs slowly across the stage while he's being taught. While they're asking him questions, he doesn't actually say anything. He just, he just runs little old man runs with his, like, you know, his Jersey on and his like, you know, marathon number. And he grok crosses the stage. And it's funny, you know, it's a funny moment because he's a little old guy and, and whatnot. And Sean, I auditioned for that. I auditioned for the, for the role and was called back to the role that Sean, um, gun God, uh, and you know, like all like all of the main stage show, you know, I was disappointed that I didn't get on a main stage show.
Speaker 5 (01:03:04):
And that was a sh I was a role that was sort of in my wheelhouse to play, but Sean was in, you know, he was an upperclassmen and he, you know, he, I put, Sean had also not gotten any, you know, really great casting. So it made sense that he got that. And Sean and I were already developing a pretty strong friendship. And so they actually petitioned bill Burnett. They actually said cast, JP has major religion. Like he, like, he would be great, you know, he's really good at characters that do in like, you know, like in prep, you know, all that kind of stuff, uh, which sort of goes back to what you were saying earlier about, uh, Jen or asking earlier, did I get a chance to play any of that kind of like charactery stuff that I had been doing that was a more cup comedian, this would probably be the best example of it and that, and it didn't even come from casting.
Speaker 5 (01:03:54):
I actually was in cast in another show that, that, um, that trimester and I was in that other show. And, um, and so it was that, and then I did this little small part as, as major ligit, which was fun because, you know, I got to, I got to be in a show with all my friends, like, you know, Lee was in that show and Sean was in it. I was Sean and I were in the same dressing room. So we got, you know, we, we put on the makeup together and unlike everybody else, I only had one particular app that I was in, which wasn't always going to be. Right. So I'd have to get all my makeup on, get ready and see whether or not the, the coin flip went my way. And if it did, then I'm on, if it didn't take off all the makeup, but there was something actually kind of fun about that too. So I, like, I actually got into the whole, I got into the, to the fun of just the whole theater experience there, mostly because it was my friends and we can all laugh about it. And if I didn't go on, that was part of the fund. And then afterwards we all went out to a bar and, and, and stuff. So that was actually, I would say that was a, that was definitely a highlight show, even though my role in it was, you know, it was basically nothing really
Speaker 6 (01:05:10):
You'll have to listen to the episode with Bradley Walker. He tells us a sweet story about you guys. Bradley was in that. I remember.
Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Yeah. He had to wear the short shorts for running. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:05:21):
Bradley was also in, in merrily. We roll along if I remember correctly. So it was like Brasfield Bradley, Bradley, Eric Slater and Louise Rosetta. That those were the three, like those were the, those were the three characters. Everybody, everybody else was just set dressing basically.
Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Right. Well, I want to be mindful of the time. I know you probably have to go, but just really quickly. I mean, you, we didn't even get to talk at all about what you've done since you graduated and it's so well, we'll put it in the show notes and everybody who's listened to this either knows you or knows you from television. Um, so, you know, we'll have to maybe have a part two for the conversation, but what are, tell us what you're doing now
Speaker 5 (01:06:08):
Right now? Uh, right now I'm actually working on a, um, I'm working on a tech startup. Um, I'm actually trying to, um, I'm building a tech product that, um, a platform for collective mythmaking. So I'm trying. Yeah. So I'm trying to build, I'm trying to build a platform where communities can come together and build their own star Wars sized universes together rather than like pump all of their creative energy into the IP. Yeah. The IP of Warner brothers and Disney, right? Like just like billions of dollars worth of value through memes and cosplay and fan fiction is basically like just going right into, into all of these, these, um, big, these big IP that, that the fans really have no control over. And certainly don't see any participation, you know, in, and so I, I, uh, several years ago I started getting obsessed with this idea that like that all of that energy could be focused towards them building their own, you know, their own star Wars, their own Lord of the rings, their own Harry Potter, and that they, that they, um, collectively, uh, you know, collectively control, you know, control the creative direction of it, its its evolution, but also can participate in, in it's a monetary success if it were to have that.
Speaker 5 (01:07:43):
And so I've been on this like multi-year journey to understand what that would look like, how you could ever incentivize a group of people to, um, to work together, um, on something like that. Um, you know, I mean a group I, I imagined that this platform could potentially have be, you know, it could potentially attract as many people as are on Twitter. Right. How would you ever incentivize and track everybody's contributions to understand like what everybody's value is? Um, that took me into the world of blockchain and into the world of cryptocurrency, which is, you know, a technology that I think has a lot of promise in that regard. And um, this past year I've learned a bunch of like, uh, learned a bunch of like coding languages and, and, and have actually built some actual tech, um, and, and some like prototypes and whatnot. Um,
Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
That's amazing. Is there a place where people can stay updated on what's happening with it?
Speaker 5 (01:08:45):
Not yet because I haven't really made it, um, really public yet, but once I start making it public, um, yeah, I mean, I have a website that I'm, that I'm, that's still behind the curtain that I'm going to be releasing that wall out people to like stay up to date through, through an email list. Um, I'm going to be doing a, um, I'm really into this idea of doing sort of a regular clubhouse room, um, in which the first starter world that we're going to be creating together, that I'm going to, um, use clubhouse to, um, to introduce that world through these like weekly, like kind of like his like fake history lessons of the world, like geeky, nerdy history lessons of the world. Um, and, um, and that hopefully will attract people who want to, um, to write, uh, create content in that world, join the community that will essentially be building that thing from the ground up.
Speaker 5 (01:09:35):
And, um, and then, uh, I'm working with, um, I'm working with a few really cool, talented people who I pitched the idea to that. Like he thought about it that have skills and everything from publicity to, um, to JavaScript. Um, and right now I'd say like 2021 I'm sort of dubbing as the team that is the year of team building. It's the year that I'm like looking for folks who like the idea who dig it and think that they can bring value in some way. And there's so many ways that people can bring value to this and kind of come in as a sort of team member from the ground up. Like I said, everything from like publicity and, you know, economic I'm looking for like, you know, right. I'm looking for somebody who's like an economist who wants to come in and be like, okay, you basically are building a little, a little, you know, in game economy, let me make sure that you are doing it right.
Speaker 5 (01:10:28):
And it doesn't collapse, you know, or you don't have overinflation or any of these, like, you know, I feel like I'm kind of having to figure all, all of this stuff out myself and become a sort of Jack of all trades. But as we know, a Jack of all trades is typically a master of no trades. And so at this point I want to, you know, I've been doing a lot of it, you know, getting it to where it is, I'm by myself. But at this point I'm going to need some masters to come in and own some parts of this. That's what I've been doing now. My, you know, you, yeah, you, you know that my, like my, uh, my past for, you know, like the last 20 years has been like a smattering of entertainment industry stuff from like, I was, I had a role on Gilmore girls for five years, and then I started writing, um, you know, uh, like for studios and television and did that for about six or seven years. And, um, and now I'm really obsessed with this and I'm trying to make this, this, this work
Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Obsessed is that this whole time we've been talking. Cause what, what I usually do when, when we talk to people that we know, which has been almost everybody, um, is I kind of like pull out a theme and I'm sitting here thinking like, I, when I encounter your spirit, I feel it so completely, but I was having a hard time naming it. And that's what it is. It's, it's obsession in a good way. It's obsession with, with your imagining of how the world can be. Um, your obsession with self betterment, your obsession with like a kind of a rigorous standard for how things should be. And, and your, um, you know, your obsession with telling people when it's not up to stare,
Speaker 5 (01:12:14):
You said to me, you said something to me a long time ago. I think it was during the lovers. You said that, that, um, that I was, uh, I was really, you said I'm a very, very perceptive person, but that it's not because I'm very perceptive of other people. It's because I'm a perceptive of myself that you said that it was sort of your way of saying, like, you don't really pay attention to other people, attention to yourself, but somehow through your constantly observing yourself and observing the problems in yourself, you sort of figure out how to engage.
Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
Yeah. Well, and I mean, you were 20, or if you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five-star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Polizzi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
Intro: Halter monitors, Boz moves back to LA
Let Me Run This By You: Philosophy. Do people who like to talk about philosophy also not like to talk about psychology?
Interview: We talk to Jimmy McDermott!
TRANSCRIPT
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:00:08):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez.
Gina Pulice (00:00:10):
and I'm Gina Pulice.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:00:11):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
Gina Pulice (00:00:15):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:00:20):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
New Speaker (00:00:28):
Went from one to three. So I put it on three. I don't even know it does, but okay. I'll keep it on
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:00:34):
Three. That's good. That's for sure. I'm sorry about all that. It's not your fault. Apparently I have it on three. I don't even know what one, two and three mean weird. I.
New Speaker (00:00:50):
'm good. How are you?
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:00:53):
Um, iron man, uh, what is that? That's a heart monitor that the, my new, um, cardiologist was, wants me to wear for a week to make sure everything's fine. They used to call called a halter. It used to be a whole situation. Now they just give you the stick on thing. And then it's like sending messages to my doctor and you press a button if you feel anything. But I never, I don't feel anything weird. Thank God. So, um, you sleep with it on too, and you can shower it's the technology is crazy. So it used to be this whole halter, like you'd have to wear like a, like a shirt with a, and now it's just a stick of iron man. Stick on. So what a time I love my new cardiologists love her. She's so awesome. It was the best appointment. Like I said, I think I told you so it was like, it just she's so nice. She was not shaming about anything. She was like, this is a lot of genetics and this is also, and you're doing everything in your power right now to take care of your heart. We're going to follow you. I think it was a one-off. Um, but because your father had heart issues, we're going to follow you and we're going to keep you on certain medicines for a little while, but she wasn't hysterical. So like, when I went in there, my, um, my blood pressure is always really high at the doctor's office. It's, you know,
Gina Pulice (00:02:21):
white coat fever,?
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:02:22):
white coat, hypertension, that's white coat hypertension. And so it was like really high. And, and the nurse was like, Oh, you know, and the people that, you know, I told you about how this is a concierge service and you have to pay $600 just to get in. Did I tell you, Oh my God, it's very LA LA. It is the worst. So, so the thing about Los Angeles is it's crazy, but also, um, so my doctor in, in Chicago referred me to this doctor that he went to, he did his residency with Dr. Weinberg. So I call and another doctor. So I call the first doctor at Cedar Sinai. Cause I figured Cedar Cedars-Sinai and I that's fancy go there. They have like a nine month waiting list unless you're having a heart attack. And I was like, no. Then I called Dr. Weinberg's office. They're like, yeah, she is taking new patients. But have you ever heard of we're concierge service? And I'm like, what, what, what are you talking about? They're like, it's a club. So you pay, you know about this, you know about this from just, Oh my gosh. So, and I, I never heard of anything like this through like there's different levels, so you could pay. And I said, what's the lowest level I could pay and still see Dr. Weinberg, who I love. And they're like $600 a year, a year. So it's not like, Oh a year. Not every time. It's not every time. So for $600 a year, you get in and you even just get an appointment with doctor with the doc, one of the doctors at the Pacific heart Institute. And so I was like, fine, fine. I can't be waiting eight months. Fine. Well, let me tell you something. I mean, it's not always true. You pay for what you get and get for what you pay. But sometimes it is like, there was no waiting. There was no, there was no, everyone was so nice. They was like, on time, she was, and she's just hysterical and funny. And like, but yeah, this concierge thing I had never heard about it in my life.
Gina Pulice (00:04:12):
Yeah. It's, it's unfortunate because like, well, what we need is universal healthcare and it's ridiculous that we don't have it, but we don't have it. And so, yeah. So it's just like, anything else, if you have money, you can have great healthcare.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:04:28):
It's so crazy. And it's so gross. And so a lot of my friends that I've told have been like, that's disgusting, dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, listen, you guys, I'm kind of in a hard place here because I need my heart tested. And I also happen to have the $600. So like, I'm going to do it. I'm not going to stand on principle and not get my heart treated because, because our is a racist classes, cesspool, I still need my heart to work. You know?
Gina Pulice (00:04:55):
And I was going to say, it's so important that you would find a cardiologist like this because they say that women, the reason that women die so frequently from heart attacks where there was no warning science supposedly is because, um, women are less likely to go to the doctor with any type of pain and there's, and it's just always been so associated with men. Heart disease has been so associated with men. So the fact that she's making you feel good and she's great at her job is amazing.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:05:29):
I was like in love. She was like, can you come back every day? I said, I'm not paying $600 every time. I'll tell you that right now, Dr. Weimer, she laughed. And she said, I know it's a weird thing. She's from the East coast. You know, she did her residency. She did, they did their residency in Philly. So she's not an Southern California gout. And I just, I felt so like, I, she was like, you're not going to freak out whatever your blood pressure's high. She's like blood pressure means at that moment in your arm, your pressure in your arm is high. Now, if we need X, Y, and she just explained things. And then she took my blood pressure in each arm and it was normal again. So I was like, yeah. So it's just the hysteria, the, um, the, or like the fear, the fear, the straight up fear of like, Oh my God, something's wrong. And I'm going to, I'm going to be in trouble for the thing being wrong. Like it's my thoughts was, was totally taken out. And also nobody they're scared of heart things because that's all they do all day. So they're not like, they're not like a GP that just doesn't know and is like, Oh my God, your blood pressure is one 60 over. You're going to have a stroke right. In my office. She's like, ah, nah. So fantastic. So I feel really, that feels really good. It feels really weird to be in Southern California. I'll tell you that. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm sort of like, where do I live? But I live here. I keep telling myself, you live here, you live here. This is your home. Right. And, and I started putting up art, more art and um, I just feel, I feel better. So I'm doing all right. I just feel a little like, okay, I gotta establish my life here again,
Gina Pulice (00:07:10):
Driving there. Did it feel like, did it feel like you were moving there all over?
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:07:14):
Yeah, it did. And it also felt like, what are we going to find? There will people remember us, but everyone in my apartment, I love my apartment complex. It's hilarious. And it's real weird. And everyone is really, I mean, it's nice, it's fine. But everyone is real odd, which I love, like everyone is a character. There's, you know, six, uh, in a 93 there's 93 units. And like there's seven French Bulldogs, which I find hysterical. I know. And I want to get one. I know we, we're thinking of getting one named Doris, a girl, Doris, the bull dog. So anyway, I love being here. It's just getting reestablished of like, Oh right. This is right. Okay. Oh yes. And also
Gina Pulice (00:07:57):
You had a major life event happened while you were away. So that's the other thing it's like, you haven't ever been in LA with whatever it is that you're dealing with now and you have to get used to whatever.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:08:10):
Yeah. And your new context. But I did, I lost, I've lost 13 pounds since I've been in the hospital. So that's yeah. And I'm doing it solely for the, for my heart. Like I don't, I mean, I'm doing it solely for health reasons, which is, I mean, look, I'd be, it would be great to, to feel a little better self-esteem wise, but literally I'm like, okay, well what can I do to make my organs feel better? Because that's why I'm here so that I can live past 65 and 67, which is when my parents died. So, um, yeah. I want, I don't want the, how old was your dad? 57. Oh my God. That is so young. So young. So miles is 54.
Gina Pulice (00:08:56):
Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well and miles has a much healthier lifestyle than fully ever does, but uh, Oh, well, I'm glad, I'm glad that everything is Oh, okay.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:09:09):
Um, talk about your blog. It was, it's so good. It's so well-written and I mean, obviously you're a good writer, but I mean, it's really well written and it is so touching a chord with people. How does it feel?
Gina Pulice (00:09:24):
Thank you for saying that. It feels great. And I was having this conversation with Erin last night. I said, I'm, I'm understanding something more deeply now about being a writer and basically what it is is that, um, every word you write has to be true if you're, if, especially if it's a personal sort of story, every single word has to be true. And then also like ring true as you're, as you're reading it as you're writing it. And um, if you're going to write, everybody writes personally these days, so everything is about people's take on things. Um, and so the world is saturated with takes on things. Um, which doesn't mean that one shouldn't write personally. It just means if you're going to do that and basically say, I have something to say here, you just have to be digging deep to figure out what the truth of something is for you.
Gina Pulice (00:10:31):
And I feel like 65% of the stuff that I read that's personal has at least some percentage of it. That's just a regurgitation of another take I've heard before. And I know what that's like too, because if you're writing and you, you start to find yourself like using turns of phrase or something like that, that you just know you've read someplace else. I understand why you would do that because you'd say, well, it worked there. So, but it doesn't, you just have to keep figuring, you have to keep winnowing down to figure out the thing that's unique to you. And you can't do that if you don't accept yourself
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:11:08):
Or no, I know yourself. Right. And that just comes back to like the theater school and, and co our college experience of like, how could we have been good actors? I mean, I'm speaking for myself. I, how could I have been a good actor? I didn't know anything. I wasn't digging deep because I, I was too, I wasn't, I didn't feel safe enough to dig deep. I was 18 years old. And so now we can really dig deep. So I think that that's, that's a Testament to that. You're really digging deep,
Gina Pulice (00:11:35):
Digging deep. And, you know, I probably said on the podcast before, but one of my favorite kind of quotes about art, and I don't even know if it's true, but it's always attributed to Michelangelo. And they asked Michelangelo, how did you, how do you sculpt David? And he said, you just take away the parts that aren't David, I think is just taking away the, by the way, I'm not comparing myself to like, just like, it's like an inspiration, inspiration. Uh, you, you have on any given subject, you have a million ideas. You just have to cut away all of the ideas that are particularly true or necessary or relevant or salient and, and just get, get to the heart of the matter. And writing is rewriting. And I told you, I started that in a completely different way. And, and I had to, I mean, I, I really did spend like quite a few hours on it because I just kept being, going back and be like, but that's not exactly how, what I mean by that. And anyway, so it was great. The great experience was great. I feel I'm getting stronger as a writer. And I feel, I love books of essays. Like Roxane gay is one of my writers. And I think, um, one of these days I'll have enough essays that, that w that can be my book.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:12:55):
Well, you could also, I mean, what I thought when I read your blog was that you could also just start submitting your, your essays to places. So to, to, to magazines and anthologies of, of essays. I mean, in the meantime, cause that's what a lot of people do. Like, you know, like, um, I went to high school, uh, and, and, and sort of friendly with Samantha Irby, who does the same thing and she, yeah. Yeah. And she, um, she likes, submits to the New York times. I mean, you know, she had this blog that did really well, but she's got to eat and it's still doing really well. And that's how that was her foray into a book of essays. But all I'm saying is I'm like of the point where I'm like, don't wait, start submitting the essays.
Gina Pulice (00:13:38):
All right. And I didn't, that would never have occurred to me. Okay.
Speaker 5 (00:13:42):
Magazines, let me run this by you.
Gina Pulice (00:13:55):
Um, what, how, when you hear people talking about philosophy or when you were in college or grad school and people were studying philosophy, just generally speaking, how does the concept of studying philosophy?
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:14:18):
I don't know what comes up for me is I don't know what philosophy is like, is it a re talking Aristotle and all that crap or, or, and okay. And he's one of them. Yeah. Okay. So it strikes me as, uh, I think at DePaul, I took philosophy and I'm pretty sure I fail or got a D and I had to switch classes. Um, I, it strikes me as something that, um, I would want to do if I was trapped in prison, I might want to study philosophy. Like I don't, I don't, I'm not, not naturally to that, but I know there are a lot of people that are, but I don't, um, I feel like it's crazy making a little bit.
Gina Pulice (00:15:00):
Yeah. I don't care for tell me why we don't care about it. And I don't care for it. Okay. Now I will preface this by saying it's probably because like you, I don't understand it. I don't, I don't, I vaguely, when people start talking, philosophically, just go, like my mind is going. Um, but I, but people love it. People love it. And people love to talk about it. I mean, on the song club house, I hear a lot of philosophical conversations and I kind of think You are interested in that if you're not interested in talking about psychology,
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:15:49):
I thought that's where you might be going. I really think that if you don't. Yes. I agree. If you don't like talking about feelings, you're going to go to philosophy. Yeah. Right?
Gina Pulice (00:16:01):
Yeah. Because I feel like when people start and I always, or maybe I will stop trying now, but in the past, I've always tried to like, I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm with you. And then I just feel like I'm a balloon. Like, I am not with you. I am not with anything. What is up? What is down? And I guess that's what people, I think people, people like that feeling. Right. Whereas I want the opposite. I want to feel like tethered to the ground. I don't want to feel like I'm up in the air at all. Right. And so, but interestingly, I think when people are really savvy and they know a lot about philosophy, everybody thinks of them as a genius. But when you're really savvy about feelings or, you know, a lot about feelings, I mean, certain people think that, Oh, that's good. And that's important. But I feel like there's a lot of people who are, who are
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:17:01):
Guiding your truck,
Gina Pulice (00:17:01):
Like, your feelings, right? Like, yeah,
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:17:04):
your feelings. your safe space. your feelings. There is no safe space or something. She'll take your safe space and shove it up your. That's what it was. Okay.
Gina Pulice (00:17:13):
I thought
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:17:15):
It was, it was your feelings. It was both. Oh no, it was both. He had a sign, a homemade sign. It wasn't even just a bumper sticker that said, your feelings and take your safe space and shove it up. Your was the tire. So anyway,
Gina Pulice (00:17:28):
Here's the thing. I feel like people who like, why would you have a bone to pick with feelings? People who say, your feelings are people who somebody said, your feelings too. And in the same way that I'm, I'm not scared by philosophy. I'm just like, not interested. I feel like maybe people who love philosophy are sort of, they got there because it wasn't as cool or good or important or safe. I'm sure. You know, talking about you, you, you can't talk about your feelings. So you talked about your thoughts,
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:18:11):
Right? So one is the brain and one is the heart, but it's not true. Those feelings are all about the brain too, but like, that's how they get lumped together. Right? And then it gets even further to feelings than our women and, and thoughts are men and it gets even more up because then it gets delineated. The, you know, women in the feelings and men and the thoughts. And I think you're right. I think it comes from people are really scared of feelings. Feelings are dangerous and they can lead to trouble. And if you just talk about your thoughts all the time that's Oh, as a therapist, if you talk about your thoughts all the time, you're safe, you know, quote safe. When I was a therapist, it drives, it would drive me crazy when people would intellectualize every single thing and come in and want to talk about their thoughts all the time. And I just kept thinking, this is such a bypass to what's really going on. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And
Gina Pulice (00:19:06):
I have this fantasy of going into one of these clubhouse rooms where they're talking about philosophy and just being like,
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:19:14):
Doesn't matter. Right.
Gina Pulice (00:19:16):
Feel right now, how do you feel about, or not that it doesn't matter, but like, I'm interested to know about how talking about philosophy. It makes you feel yes. Right. There is, there must be something that is, so it could, it could be satisfying, but it could also be maybe, maybe it is, this is here, me asking a philosophical question. Maybe it is somehow emotionally healing for people to talk about philosophy. Maybe it's a way maybe if we really paid attention to it and we felt like we could understand what was happening in these conversations. Maybe we would find direct correlation between certain ideas that are, that are discussed in philosophy. We'd be like, Oh yeah, that's just,
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:20:04):
Oh, that's yeah. That's just person centered, whatever. Yeah. Or like a modality that probably, and also I think that people are just scared, scared, scared, scared, scared, scared. Yeah. For sure. I just, it comes down to these like base feelings. I'm scared. So the other thing is I had to be, to be honest, I don't know the difference. What the hell is the difference in this is people are going to be like, Oh my God, turn this podcast off. What's the difference between really philosophy and sociology. Sociology is the study. Myles studied sociology at Northwestern. I don't know what that is. The study of people. I don't know what that is. Yeah.
Gina Pulice (00:20:39):
Well, I don't know either, but I'm just going to give my uninformed opinion that I think, I think sociology is more the study of, and like how, what happened, how, how, what happens in society determines, you know, other things. But
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:20:55):
Sounds good to me. That sounds good. Like a good definition. I also,
Gina Pulice (00:21:01):
I also feel about the study of philosophy. I listen, I'm people who do it. I'm sure they're really smart. And I'm sure it's great for what it is, but I'm like, what, what's the point of this? What did, what did we do? What are we doing here? Like I
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:21:18):
It's pontificating, it's pontificating, suffocating. Right.
Gina Pulice (00:21:22):
I find that so boring. Well,
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:21:24):
I also feel like in a day and age where the pontificating is, the time for that is probably over look at looking at our world. I mean, we need philosophers. Right. But we need them because they they're the basis of a lot of things. I'm sure. Whatever. I don't know. But, but they're important. I, I, you know, all philosophers matter and I'm such an, but I'm just trying to say, I'm just trying to say that I, I don't know what they do and I'm sure it's important. But what I feel is going back to feelings is that in this day and age where our world is on fire in so many ways we could sit around while the world is on fire and pontificate about how it got there. Or we could try to pick up a bucket like Paul home Quist is doing, you know, and like put out the fire, help put out. He was a guest. We had on a podcast who became a public school teacher, but from an actor. But like, so like we could try to put out the fires in whatever way. I'm not saying everyone has to pick up an actual bucket and put out a fire. I'm just saying, maybe do something that could contribute to making the world a better place rather than pontificating about it. But they probably would say we are doing something. I don't know, whatever
Gina Pulice (00:22:34):
They would probably say we're doing. So, so this came up for me yesterday on clubhouse that I love. That's the whole premise of it is that there's all these old music playing in the background. My people are just shooting the basically. And they started talking yesterday about, I guess, one of the, you know, about NFTs. Yeah. One of the things about NFTs often is like, people are saying, it's what it's, what is it? It's not, how is that art? And you can take a pre-existing piece of art. And like, for example, Banksy burned that picture and now it's worth more. So art is in the eye of the beholder and somebody was saying like, well, you could literally take an image of the Mona Lisa and chop it up in certain ways and put it back together and then say, this is my piece of art, which I guess Andy Warhol did that. Not with a MonaLisa necessarily, but like he, you know, he, he really explored that idea of like, what is art? And it's all in the eyes of the beholder. But the conversation they were having yesterday is who deserves. And they weren't saying illegally, this one guy kept saying, I'm not talking about legal. I just mean like
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:23:51):
Philosophically, who, who deserves
Gina Pulice (00:23:54):
Should be credited or paid or whatever. And, and they talked about it for like an hour and the whole time I'm like, who cares? I mean, if you're talking about piece of art that I made, then I have an opinion about whether or not I want you to use it. If you're talking about whether am I going to get sued from using another person's piece of art, then I care about that. But why do I care about it in some theoretical sense? I just don't know what the application sure. There is a beautiful application. I just don't know what it is.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:24:24):
Yeah. And I, I would feel the same way. And maybe at the core, these people are really, they, they, what they really may be. And now here I am pontificating, but maybe what they really want to say is I want to be an artist. I want to create art, but I don't have any good ideas. So I, what happens if I just take the Mona Lisa and I chop it. So they don't personalize. Like they, maybe they want to personalize, but they can't do it. So they talk in these really grandiose terms. Um, and it just, I keep going back to this image of my mother actually. So one day we're at a restaurant and she, it was right after my dad died and she, and she looked really sad. And I, I said, you look really sad. And she slammed her glass down on the table, almost breaking it and said, I am not sad.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:25:14):
I'm angry. And, and, and, but she was like really sad and angry. Like, she couldn't be both. Right. And then she stormed out at the restaurant. So all this to say like, would she really, she couldn't, a lot of us can not just say what's actually going on. So like, I'm off, I'm in this room, this clubhouse room, right? Like I'm imagining myself listening to this and it's saying, you know, I want to be an artist just blurting out in the clubhouse room. We're talking about this philosophically, but wait, I want to be an artist. I want to be paid for my work. That's what's really going on here. That's what, I'm the heart of the matter. I think you, and I want to get to the heart of the matter. And I think people want to stay around the atmosphere of the matter.
Gina Pulice (00:25:54):
Right. And, and so at the beginning of the conversation, I just said, since he was asking like, what's everybody's opinion, I just said, Oh, I just think the money should go to the artists, like the original artists. I don't, um, unless it's in the public domain, you know, something that's over a hundred years old. Um, I think you're right. I think if I was in charge of that conversation or whatever, I might, I might say the only reason we're talking about this is because we're all trying to figure out whether we, as the artists, you know, can be valued, deserve something, deserve credit. Like, to me, that would have been a fascinating discussion.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:26:36):
Right. But that's why you and I, you know, we're different. And that's how we have this podcast is kind of, because we're saying, wait, let's get to the, of what the hell happened here, or what is happening here? What is going on here? What, what taking a hard look at, at, at, um, at what happened in a cycle with a psychological lens, because that's a way to eventually maybe heal or at least move through and then move on and then be able to live your life and make art and get paid for it and have a good life and all that. But like a lot of people don't give a about that.
Gina Pulice (00:27:08):
A lot of people don't give a about that. And since you brought up Paul Holmquist, that's the other thing I've been meditating on this week is, I mean, that really touched me when he said that he was experiencing actual healing. And that is also something that, um, Rob has said, and we've heard it a few times now. We've heard people say, wow, I am just the process of listening to people, talk about their experiences and try and putting that in the context of my own experiences is making me let go of certain things or find grace for myself or other people about certain things. And I think in some cases, just deal with certain things that people have pushed to the side. And you have been saying, I wanted to give you this credit. You have been saying from the beginning, we are giving a service. We are doing a service. And when you would say that, I think, okay, I guess to me, it just feels like we're doing something that we like, and it feels fun, but you're totally right. People are receiving it, not everybody, but some people are receiving it as truly like a gift.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:28:20):
Yeah. It's it's. And I think that is, that is where we're picking up the bucket and putting out the fire, right? Like that is our version of that. And, and we are like giving and not, you know, whatever it is, what it is. I'm not trying to say that we're like the world's greatest fireman. But what I'm saying is that at least we're, we're creating something that also has the potential and people have Ms. Saying, it is like your blog and like other things, this is healing for me. Great, awesome. That way. It's actually having an effect in the real world, putting out a fire, you know, or helping people move through a fire. So, yay.
Gina Pulice (00:28:57):
Amen. And let the record reflect that if anybody wants to use this content for their own purposes in their art, it must, the dividends must stay with the original creator.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:29:10):
As my client, as my client used to say, Oh my God, I walked up. This client wants, and he had this huge tattoo on his neck. And, um, I said, Hey, you know, Jesse, what's your tattoo say? And he said, it says, you pay me. So. Okay, great. Good to know. So in the words of Jesse, you.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:29:35):
Yeah. Todd casts, we talked to Jamie McDermott. Jimmy McDermott is an awesome human being. He's a director. He was an actor. He's a consummate artists, strategic, thoughtful, he's engaging. He's so down to earth and humble and someone that we just really enjoyed talking to about life, about, about what it's like to go through, hard things about what gets you through hard things. And, um, it was just a delightful conversation. So please enjoy our conversation with Jimmy McDermott podcast. Interview is actually called.
Jimmy McDermott (00:30:25):
It was actually before the term existed. So I, the only other time I've done something like this was an internet radio show.
Gina Pulice (00:30:32):
Okay. All right. So you're, you're a pro congratulations, Jimmy, you survived theater school. And in my mind you did it with quite a great sense of humor. That's my lasting impression of you is how funny or,
Jimmy McDermott (00:30:47):
Oh, wow. That that's that's that's no, I'll take that. That's nice to hear it. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (00:30:52):
Did G now you graduated with a emphasis on directing, but that's not how you start,
Jimmy McDermott (00:30:59):
Right? That's correct. Yeah. W I did my first year as an actor in the MFA program.
Speaker 8 (00:31:04):
Okay. You got your BFA elsewhere.
Jimmy McDermott (00:31:10):
Yeah. Your undergraduate degree elsewhere. What was that? A Florida Atlantic university. And it was a, it was a BFA in acting slash directing. You got the directing credit, whether you directed anything there or not. I directed a few things there, but actually my, my directing experience was, uh, uh, uh, I worked for a children's theater company where I grew up and I probably had directed maybe six or seven productions by the time I moved to Chicago through them. And then a couple of things, a couple of one acts, uh, through my undergrad, but that was so, uh, you know, I had some experience directing and it was very interested in directing, but, uh, when I was about, but the criteria DePaul included for the directing programs that I was looking at in my final year of undergrad, uh, they all seem to require a production, you know, at least three productions where all artists were paid and that was kind of like a, a running theme in it. And I learned quickly after that, that that's totally a deterrent to, you know what I mean? Like, because if, if I had directed three productions where all artists were paid, I'd be well into a career. Do you know what I mean? And it took me, you know, nearly five years after directing, uh, after receiving a directing degree from the theater school to get in that, in that position. I know what I mean. So it was, uh, so those, those things are, it's a, it's a bunch of made up stuff,
Speaker 8 (00:32:37):
But so how, what,
Gina Pulice (00:32:40):
When you thought you were going there to the theater school for the acting MFA, um, I'm just curious about, cause we, we re to the Perth, the podcast is airing today has a person who, who got two acting degrees. And I never really got a chance to like, get to the bottom of why two acting degrees. You already knew how to act. Why did you have to go do it at the graduate level?
Jimmy McDermott (00:33:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's an excellent question. And, uh, I knew, I mean, I somehow knew, or at least I romanticized through like professors, I had that, that, you know, even if I did get and I wanted to be a director, that's, let's just put that out there. There weren't any illusions about that. But I thought like I, as I said before, I was clearly didn't meet whatever criteria was for a directing program. So either I just head out and try to do that on my own, but I really thought the way into it was going to be through acting. And then, and, you know, Joe Montana and ellos career was really big at the time. He is somebody who had transferred from being a really big actor on Broadway into a really formidable directing career. So like that path seemed like the most natural thing to me. And I always thought, you know, the kind of circuit of writer, director, actor, like that identity was really attractive to me. And I always thought that that was, uh, uh, uh, you know, I, I wanted to live like the, you know, a life of letters sorta in that respect, you know what I mean? And, um, so that was, uh, so that was all very interesting. And I, and I, and, uh, and I also knew kind of in the back of my mind that I would never be able to cobble together probably an entire, if I devoted myself to theater. And I was also very interested in film. I just had a very stupid way of going about that. And, and, you know, w that bore no fruit clearly because I was doing it very, very, uh, you know, in a very ill-informed way, but the, uh, uh, the, but, uh, sorry, I'm, I'm, I'm stammering, but the, uh, the, uh, so I, I, I knew that I was going to have to teach as a, as, as a component of that. And so, and the life of a professor was just very cool because, you know, they got to do what they wanted most of the time. And, and, you know, the workload seemed like it was, you know, every, everything has its administrative quotient, but it's, uh, but that seemed to be, you know, negligible and, and, and in that respect, uh, so getting a terminal degree and, and, and, and being able to have like a teaching credit, even if I knew that I wasn't gonna be able to cash in on that until till much later, uh, uh, it seemed like that that was a wise course of action. And, uh, and I will say in trying to get another acting degree, I really did kind of boil it down to a couple of schools. It like Carnegie Mellon, which I didn't have particular interest in, uh, art, which I didn't really Boston. Wasn't a draw, a draw for me, uh, Yale, which was number one, uh, for me. And then, uh, and the theater school, uh, in Chicago, because, uh, I was born in Chicago and I had extended family. There was a support system there. I like to the city already. I knew that, you know, I, I, it, it, it was in my bones. It was, you know, um, so that was attractive. And then, so the final year of my undergrad comes along and it was a densely packed year. I was really trying to finish, you know, it was really concentrated on that. And I knew I wanted to, to, to, uh, to kind of grew myself for a Yale audition. And I was like, I don't know that I'm going to make that happen this spring. You know what I mean? But DePaul was coming to Miami. I grew up in South Florida. Um, and I went to undergrad there. Um, DePaul was coming to Miami and I thought, okay, I'll go through the process because I don't want to audition for Yale, not having done graduate audition process yet, you know? And so I said, I'll do that this year, see how it goes, and then try to save up money to, and really, really concentrate on making that happen next year. So I went to the audition for the theater school and, um, and, uh, I did get in and it was, uh, and then, you know, it was faced with the prospect of, okay, do I live in South Florida, which I really, really did not enjoy being there. Um, do I live here for another year for the prospect of auditioning for Yale and then not get in, or, you know, uh, so th that, uh, that I didn't really savor that idea. So I decided I'll go check out the theater school and then, you know, uh, see if I like it. And then, and, and, you know, make this decision. And I went and visited it, and I fell much more in love with Chicago than I did necessarily the theater school, even though that doesn't really have any complaints about it. Other than the fact that when you walked into the building, it was this converted elementary school that was sort of disappointing because coming from my undergrad, we were really pretty well-equipped facility, you know, but the, like the idea of that, a city sort of grafting something inside of an existing older structure was charming in its way. I was also like, boy, this is a, you know, where's the lighting package in any of these rooms and Claire you lighting package. And she has, I mean, you know, obviously a different facility on a much, much more, you know, much more competent sort of draw. But, um, uh, so I was, so I, I left from that visit thinking like, well, I really, really want to move to Chicago. Never thinking to my mind that we'll just move to Chicago for God's sakes. Do you know? And, and, you know, and, and don't incur all of this debt. Uh, but I didn't, because I'd been a lifelong student of it at that point. I didn't have a gap year anywhere, you know what I mean? And so just conditioned under the auspices of like, I need to go in the guise of something, you know what I mean? I, I really felt like I didn't have any safety net or any purpose or any driver or anything to report to, unless I wasn't involved in a curriculum of some sort. And that was just because I know nothing else.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:38:59):
Were you, when you, when you went to came to DePaul?
Jimmy McDermott (00:39:04):
Uh, it would have been 21, so I was right. Super young. Yeah. Yeah.
Gina Pulice (00:39:09):
You must have, excuse me, just had a baby face. Cause we both thought you were our same age. Yeah. I was like, for sure, he's 17,
Jimmy McDermott (00:39:18):
But I wa I was, I mean, I, I was a year older than probably junior cause your last year was my first year. And, uh, and you would have been, you were not there at my first year as you. You're probably my contemporary
Gina Pulice (00:39:36):
Because I'm 45. I'm old. Yeah. She, she and I started in the same year. And then she did the thing is I, I didn't know any of this, about your acting you never talked about. So like, you must be a good actor. How did I not know this?
Jimmy McDermott (00:39:53):
Well, you didn't know it because I'm not, I got, I got cut from the acting program.
Gina Pulice (00:40:00):
So it was
Jimmy McDermott (00:40:02):
No, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, it was, uh, and it wasn't a huge surprise that I got cut from the acting program because I just, I was not jiving with the acting training there at all. You know, it was, it was, it was really, uh, you know, I mean, not, not because it was just, I, I couldn't give over to it. I could not give over to laying on the mat. I, it was, there was an, and this was, you know, I mean, everybody there was trying to make their living and I don't deny, you know, I don't begrudge them that, but, you know, there was a, there was a real kind of like with, of Charlotte aneurysm coming from some of the summer ends of the faculty that I was just like, I can't believe you have a dental plan, you know? And so, uh, and, and I won't name names because those people were heroes to others. Do you know what I mean? And, and that's completely legit in their experience of course, but there were just pockets of it that I was just like, I don't, I, you know, I, I, I know I'm not really pulling much from this. Do you know what I mean? And it's not like I'm thinking it wasn't a situation where like, uh, maybe I'll use this down the line. Like it really was. I, I really feel I'm being, you know, taken, you know, something, somebody magic rights. Do you know what I mean? I feel like
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:41:25):
One man's Jesus is another man or woman's charlatan. So that's to be said, and also Gina has a bit Of this sort of, um, well, I'm going to presume, like, there's this thing about not joining right? Where you just like, you, I'm not going to join because everyone's
Jimmy McDermott (00:41:44):
That's. That is my, I would say that that's, that's, that's my most prevailing symptom throughout life. Yes. I cannot cannot cannot use anyone. Else's hashtag I cannot, you know, where anybody else's t-shirt I just won't do it. I'm biologically averse to it. There's something in me that was, that really needs to create distance. When I see three people wearing the same Jersey, I'm like, get me the outta here.
Gina Pulice (00:42:13):
Well, let's try to unpack that a little bit more. You, you remember that since like your earliest memories in, in elementary school, you were feeling like there was a crowd that you didn't want to be a part of?
Jimmy McDermott (00:42:30):
Well, I mean, I think it was mutual for sure. You know? Uh, yeah. I mean, I never, I never really, uh, uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I started kindergarten when I was four and it was just too young, you know what I mean? Like, so I, with the speaking of contemporaries, like I never felt like, I, I always felt like everybody else knew something else that I didn't, you know what I mean? So I always had to try to create my own reality or my own thing, or my own little lane of, of whatever it was, because I just, I felt like I didn't get it. You know what I mean? And, and if I did get it, I didn't want it. It was, yeah. So there's a lot of sour grapes attached to that too, of course, but it's, but yeah, that, that fortified really early.
Gina Pulice (00:43:15):
And did you, when did you first want to pursue acting?
Jimmy McDermott (00:43:21):
Uh, I mean, you know, I think anything I ever wanted to be before I decided that I wanted to be an artist or a storyteller or, or, or, you know, take, you know, cut that path at all is, was, um, it was just like, I would always identify like the job that I wanted through a television show or a movie. Do you know what I mean? I, it was the conduit was always the, the actor somehow, you know what I mean? It was just like, I love what they're doing. I want to be that I want to be, you know, for a month. I remember actively, like in, in second, second or third grade, thinking like I wanted to be in the CIA, because that was the American version of what James Bond did. Do you know what I mean? It was just like, when I really wanted to be Roger Moore, it was, no, it wasn't, it wasn't the, the job, it was the sequence of events he gets to go through.
Jimmy McDermott (00:44:11):
You know what I mean? So at some point I was just like, okay, now what, yeah. I like playing these things and, and, you know, and I would, I was a type of kid that like, I'd go out in my backyard and I would walk around and create movies in my head and sort of act them out in this, like it, my neighbors thought I was touch, you know? And, and my dad used to, like, I had this in our, in our backyard. I had this pattern that I walked, where I wore out in the grass. And my dad was like, beside himself, he was like, what is wrong? You know, he's out there flailing his arms and sort of, you know, creating this path in the, in the, in the grass. And the neighbors were just, what, what are we doing with these? It should be institutionalized.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (00:44:57):
That's awesome. I love that. When I think about it, that's to me, what, like directors do. I know a lot of directors I've worked with they're like pacing and seeing and moving things and yeah.
Jimmy McDermott (00:45:10):
Yeah. It was, I mean, it is, yeah, I was, I was, you know, honing skill, I suppose, you know, but it was, you know, the, the, the, the, the just, you know, uh, like my, my, my muscles and my mind always took me to like, okay, uh, pretend this inflate, this, blow this up. You know what I mean? What w w create a world out of this somehow, that was always just fairly instinctive. Uh, so that it was, yeah. Yeah. That was so an idea of like, w w what can I do that just invites the most sense of play would be, and I wasn't good. And then when I finally started doing theater, like probably in middle school to a certain extent, it was the only thing I was ever any good at at all. So it was, it really felt like this is the only thing that I can pursue, because like, I, you know, I, I was a little bit above average student, but I was, you know, not, not, not sort of lazy, but I was like, I know, uh, prowess in sports or anything like that.
Jimmy McDermott (00:46:15):
And, and, you know, and I didn't think of myself as particularly smart. So I was just like, you know, I want to, you know, this feels good. This is fun. I seem to have some kind of knack for it, or at least I have a mimicry property that I've seen somewhere else that I can apply in what I'm doing and get by with that. And that was still fun to me. I didn't feel like I was cheating. I felt like I was drawing on the things that I loved, you know? So, um, so that was so, yeah, I really fell in love with just the idea of performing and, uh, and I always considered acting as just a, uh, as, as being a piece of that storytelling. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't taking place in a vacuum for me, it was, I love the idea of what it takes to, to, to bring an audience through a narrative.
Jimmy McDermott (00:47:04):
And, um, and, uh, and how you contribute to that as a, you know, and when you're doing children's theater too, you're like not, you're typically like playing like five roles throughout a thing too. So you don't get precious about one particular character or anything like that. You're you're, or the process of like, really building that character from the ground up is, is, you know, that's just going to get in the way of what you have th th th the task, you know what I mean? So you, you just have as much fun, you make as much delineation between those things, as you can. And, and, and, and you, you, you know, and at the end of the day, the kids see a story, you know, and I mean, and, and, or, you know, you go in and you try to do your, the clown routine. That's going to get the loudest, laugh out is a very simple transaction
Speaker 4 (00:47:52):
Pitted me of an ensemble member to me in a real world. But like, like you, you, the old, one of the only actors that we've talked to that, that, and I know maybe you had dreams, but most people and myself included were like, I was just going to be a famous actor. Cause that's the, what we're going to well, yeah. If you want that,
Jimmy McDermott (00:48:11):
I mean, I wanted that. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Because that, you know what, once you start doing that, and then you realize like, okay, what, you know, and, and the dream for me really always was, and, and to a certain extent, yeah. The ensemble is an attractive notion of that, but there's also like this, this, this great kind of scenery chewing, uh, you know, seizing of a moment too, is that, that I wanted to be on Saturday night live. Like that was, that was so part of when I was looking at, at, uh, at coming to Chicago is that I went to second city, uh, during that visit. And that was just after Adam McKay had wrote the pinata full of bees, which was like a really, really kind of Seminole, uh, golden era for, for, for a second city. Um, he was not in the cast anymore, but like Tina Fey had taken over his role.
Jimmy McDermott (00:48:59):
So I, I went there and I saw that production. And then when I moved to Chicago, I started working as a bus boy there. So I really, because I wanted, I wanted the proximity to that, but at the same time, I felt like I need to study something in an institution because the idea of that degree was still kind of hanging over me because there was a certain longevity in that pursuit, but I, what I want and what I want to, more than anything to be was like, when I was washing dishes back backstage, you know, have somebody come on and say like, Scott ads, it's stuck in traffic. You need to get on stage. You know what I mean? Like I know the whole show, you know, and I did, it really did. I had that fantasy of just like, I could step into any single one of these roles right now, and they're going to come into the kitchen in their gun and evening, you know, and Lauren Michaels will be in the audience that night. And that will, that will be my thing.
Speaker 4 (00:49:51):
I never get to. I mean, I'm guessing that nobody ever came and got you from your dishwashing and
Jimmy McDermott (00:49:57):
They didn't, they didn't strangely, there was a very deep bench of hungry performers who had been improvising for decades, uh, that were in intertwined,
Speaker 4 (00:50:06):
Explicably, more qualified than you. But did you, um, have a chance to hang out socially with any of them?
Jimmy McDermott (00:50:14):
Yeah, sure. I mean a little bit. I mean, like, I wouldn't say that I, that I, that I was, you know, particularly friends with them, but it was, uh, uh, but yeah, I got, you know, I, I, I, yeah. I mean, know, you'd say, hello, would you say, ask them how the show was going? You'd say, like, this thing that you're improvising towards a sketch tonight was really strong tonight. I hope that makes it into the next review. You know, I love to talking to them about what they were doing and they liked to talk about it too, because they were in the middle of writing something, you know what I mean? Or, or, or, or kind of adapting something, crafting something from the improv sets to, to, to, to make it into the next thing. And, you know, um, I mean, some of the people who are not like really famous who were kind of the nicest to me, or like, would, would talk to me the most frequently, uh, I mean the, the funniest person in the world that I ever ever saw on stage, there was a Brian stack and he's a head writer for Kohlberg.
Jimmy McDermott (00:51:09):
And, um, he was, yeah, he, he made it a point to make sure that he was on a first name basis with everybody on the staff, no matter what you do, he check in with you, but not in a way where, uh, but in a completely, totally genuine way was not perfunctory wasn't necessarily even small talk. He would just ask you an interesting question about your life, or like Horatio's sends, like, uh, would, would come back and you notice that I was like sad one day and he's like, you got lady problems. I'm like, yeah, right now you're really, really good to pick up.
Speaker 8 (00:51:43):
Cute. So getting back to this thing about not wanting to buy what they were trying to sell you in terms of, um, how did you say, you said, like there were certain phrases that the teachers were saying at the theater school that you were,
Jimmy McDermott (00:51:58):
I think it's a magic words. I mean, I really think that that, that, uh, conservatory training, it really is about like, what are the buzzwords of that five-year pocket? Do you know what I mean? 'cause, I've, I've noticed that I worked, uh, as quick as I did get to work at the theater school as like a guest artist directing like workshops and studio things in subsequent years. And I would realize that, you know, and, and I had one very good experience at one, one experience, which was unfortunate and it was, and, and I have to take a responsibility for it because I was just, I was not the adult in the room. I needed to be the entire time, um, nothing on toward happened or anything like that. But I was, you know, I mean, blurring the lines because these people feel like, even though you're, you, you have 15 years between you or something like that, it's easy to get back into an environment like that and feel like these people are your contemporaries and, and just learning that you absolutely have to create this, this, this brick wall there, uh, on, on so many, in so many aspects of that relationship is, uh, is important and that was hurt and it hurt to learn that.
Jimmy McDermott (00:53:13):
And it was, you know, it cost me an opportunity because it, it just didn't go well. And it was weird because I couldn't, um, it was, I was reading room very poorly. I didn't have any idea that that was necessarily going on, but it was very clear that when they left the room, I was the topic of conversation and it was, uh, you know, and it wasn't good. Um, so, uh, they were so, uh, you know, that, that was, that was a bit of a rude awakening. And, and, and it was so, but I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was just not using the same vocabulary as the instructors they currently had. I, my approach wasn't, you know, uh, it just, it wasn't concentrating on whatever the kind of [inaudible] technique that was taking place there. And I think it had mostly to do with language because there was a complaint, the most misrepresentative complaint in the, uh, uh, in the evaluations was that I wasn't ever talking about character or intention.
Jimmy McDermott (00:54:16):
I was like, that's. I'm just not giving you, you know, the, the, I'm just not phrasing it the way you're, you're, you're, you're used to hearing, or, or we are getting at it through how we're exploring the physical reality of what we're staging here now, you know, and also I'm in room three Oh two thrust with some 19 year olds that I have to figure out where they fit in this big play. Do you know what I mean? And while the cut system was not in effect, by that point, there was still this really strangely this prevailing anxiety of just being 19 in a conservatory that was as much anxiety as it was if they were, if the stakes were going to be cut, if that makes sense, but, you know, it was almost, it was almost like that, that was the most interesting thing to me is like getting rid of the cut system, didn't seem to relax the psyche at all of these, of these kids. It just, you know, I think that was cynically probably just because the lawsuits had mounted too far.
Speaker 8 (00:55:22):
Right. And
Jimmy McDermott (00:55:24):
I do think that there's something more humane about promising somebody that you're going to take them through a training institution that they've invested in at, at, at a certain, although there are certainly people in all of those experiences that you, that, that I looked at it in, in, in both of my experiences, uh, teaching there and some of my, both of my experiences directing there, and then some of my experiences teaching them, because I did teach a lecture class there for a couple of years too. But the, um, the, uh, uh, was that, you know, th there were sadly, there were some people that was like, you would have really been benefit. You really would have benefited by being cut in your first year, because you can't do, I'm not going to raise that Titanic here in this four weeks. We'd have, this is this isn't going to happen. You know,
Speaker 8 (00:56:11):
That's very interesting, this whole thing about going back literally to the same school, uh, and, and having to do, I mean, I, I had forgotten until just this moment that I, so I left college and I moved to California, and then I moved back to Chicago, um, some seven years later and I was so excited to be back. I wanted to go, not, I wasn't excited to be back in Chicago. I wanted to go back to movement to music. I was, I loved moving to music so much, and I knew that John let people, you know, graduates come in. But I see it now that what happened to me was that I hadn't done any of the processing of my experience. So I kind of just went back and then like, felt all of the same unresolved things that I had been feeling when I was there. And it led to this disgusting, like posturing on my part. And I was trying to I'm, this is all coming back to me. And I was like, trying to do this thing of, like, I really get you. And, and everybody was
Speaker 5 (00:57:18):
Like, I literally never laid eyes
Speaker 8 (00:57:21):
On you. What the are you talking about? I, I hadn't begun to look at soul section of my life.
Jimmy McDermott (00:57:31):
It's uh, yeah, no, I have, uh, there's a lot of harmonic recognition in what you're saying there. Yeah, absolutely. It's it, it, it is, it is, it is strange what environments can do to you when you return to that. You know what I mean? What, what it pulls out of you on like the cellular level and, um, it's, it is weird and, and I'm not a superstitious person at all. Like, in, in, in really much of any way, however, like there were room, like, I may be getting the room number wrong, but like three Oh two was a room that I had been assigned to several times. It was like, every class I had in that room was a class. I didn't like every rehearsal experience I had in that room was it experience that I thought was not strong. And, uh, and then I was back in this room again, which I knew I hated. And I thought, well, you know, that was forever ago. And it really did it, but, but the room made me feel like I, it was, uh, like just something wasn't right.
Speaker 5 (00:58:29):
I have that. I've had that. It's so weird.
Jimmy McDermott (00:58:32):
It's so weird. And, and, you know, and it's really tempting to like, blame the room and not my behavior. You know what I mean? But it's, but I guess that's how we cope.
Speaker 8 (00:58:44):
That was mentioned. The only other time somebody mentioned a room number was Tate, and he did say room three Oh two. So there is something about it. And I remember
Jimmy McDermott (00:58:53):
It's the room two 30, seven of the two 37 from the shining.
Speaker 8 (00:58:59):
Oh, right. Got it. Got it. Uh, I, my worst acting experience was also in that room now that I'm thinking of it. That's very funny. Orgasmic adults escapes from the zoo.
Speaker 5 (00:59:18):
Remember that girl? And you, the smell
Jimmy McDermott (00:59:23):
Was horrible. You were Ogawa Delta,
Speaker 8 (00:59:26):
The woman who, whatever, leaning out my window, talking for hours, I felt like it was the ring cycle. I felt.
Jimmy McDermott (00:59:35):
Yeah, it was horrible. Horrible doing the ring cycle in room three. Oh two. The name of my new solo show that had been my solo show is going to be called the ringside.
Speaker 8 (00:59:51):
Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. There's just a, did you ever have that, like returning to the theater school and feeling like you were your younger self? I,
Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
I teach BFA fours, but only since last year and it's all online. And so it's a different, it's something about the building I'm telling you right now. I had to go to the building for a meeting, right? The new building. I'm not, I've never been in the new building. And I immediately felt like, Oh my God, who are the cool people? Where are the pretty ones? Where are the ugly ones were? And I was like, Oh my God,
Speaker 8 (01:00:27):
This is horrible. This is horrible, horrible, horrible.
Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
I feel the same thing. If I was in the back, I am so grateful that I'm teaching online because it's a different, it's a totally different thing than being in. And you can't even, there's no scene. Right? There's no. See that. There's also no way of like doing the harm you can do when you're in a room with someone
Jimmy McDermott (01:00:50):
I don't know about that, but it's
Speaker 4 (01:00:53):
Finished. Right. It's diminished you, can't the energy can't be misconstrued in that specific way of like a physical weirdness, you know, or like yeah.
Jimmy McDermott (01:01:03):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Or the proximity or just like he's breathing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:01:09):
Or like, yeah. I think it's just the weirdness. My weirdness gets kind of like, there's a filter, so that's good. So anyway, but I, I remember going back after I had booked a TV show and right after, and feelings, what I wanted was every teacher to come out and say, we're so sorry. We did it better.
Speaker 8 (01:01:33):
We're so sorry.
Speaker 4 (01:01:35):
But we didn't cast you as the lead in every show. None of that happened. It was like, maybe John Bridges was like, yeah, you have too much makeup on. See you later. And I was like, Oh God.
Jimmy McDermott (01:01:46):
So, so
Speaker 8 (01:01:48):
They never give you what you really want.
Jimmy McDermott (01:01:53):
Yeah. I, you know, I, yeah, I, I, I don't know that. I would say that that's unique to the theater school at DePaul per se, but it's, uh, but it's, uh, it's done in a very incubated, concentrated way where you feel it in a really kind of acute fashion. So yes. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Beans
Speaker 8 (01:02:13):
Cut from the acting program. And did they, did they suggest, I mean, I know you, you say you already knew you wanted be a director, so was that just the natural thing or did they offer it to you? How does that work?
Jimmy McDermott (01:02:23):
Yeah, and it was in the same letter that they cut me in a subordinate paragraph. They said, but you can continue on as an MFA director. However, the stipulation was that I had to join the existing class because there are only three directors for any given year at that time. I don't know if it's different now, but, um, and the class below me was full. They had three directors for that. And the class that I was in the class of 99 had two directors, but the like right before school had started that year, the third one had dropped out. So there was a vacancy in that class. So the deal was that I had to finish the curriculum with those two, but I had to do the three years of the directing program in my remaining two years, however, a couple of the core classes and like maybe one or two of them were things that I had taken as the actor already. So there was a bit of a hybridization there, but the, it wasn't like, you can take your time and finish this whenever you want. They're like, you gotta, you, you gotta go with these guys as though weirdly I was the only person in that class to actually walk at the graduation ceremony because I was the only person to finish my thesis paper anyway.
Speaker 8 (01:03:36):
Wow. So what happened when you graduated? What'd you do next? Uh, I,
Jimmy McDermott (01:03:43):
Uh, I mean, you know, I tried to survive, nobody, nobody wants a 24 year old kid with a theater, uh, like an MFA in directing, like, not even in the theater, nobody, nobody is interested in you. You know what I mean? And I knew that I was, I was steeled for that. I didn't have real illusions about that. And, you know, and like rewinding even the decision about like, am I going to go into this directing program after being cut from this thing was, was, was one I had to make, because part of me was just like, thinking like, you know what I mean, in this past year, it's not that he didn't learn anything from the acting program at the theater school. I, I, I, I did, I would be lying if I said that I didn't. Um, but I learned more about what I really wanted to do while I was washing dishes at second city DNO.
Jimmy McDermott (01:04:35):
Um, so I was just like, do I just go that path? Because that was the thing that seemed to make the most sense to me and this past fiscal year, you know? And, uh, and so, uh, how do I approach this? And then ultimately there was some scholarship money involved with the offer of the, the, the directing program. And, um, and I was just like already like, well, I put the year in, I know the people, I they're, my friends are good actors and I want to work with them in a certain capacity. And I think I have, I have a watching plays in that building for a year or two. And, and, you know, and I have this sense of like, you know, th th this might be nifty DNO. I mean, or like, this is a work around for this, or this is a way to address the fact that we're in a classroom, you know, uh, watching a play that doesn't belong in here.
Jimmy McDermott (01:05:26):
You know what I mean? Like, so it was, uh, so those challenges became interesting to me. Um, when Jim also Hoffa was my acting teacher in that first year and the head of the directing program too, I had a rapport with him in some way. And he and I talked on several occasions throughout that first year where he would ask, do you think you're more of a director? And I was like, well, yes, absolutely. I am. And he was like, well, why are you in the acting program? It was just like, because I can't get into your program as a director, what the hell? You know what I mean? And he was just like, well, yeah, it'll read all of that stuff. I was like, well, you're telling me that now, you know, and it was, uh, so it was, uh, uh, so that was a bit of a strange conversation, but I thought, you know, I had my eggs, a lot of my eggs were already in that basket.
Jimmy McDermott (01:06:12):
So it was like, yeah, let's, let's see this through because I don't really have any other prospects. If I go the second study round, it's not like I'm returning to anything that like, you know, I would have to start a ground, you know, ground level go through all of that training. Not only do second city, I'd have to do EIO, I'd have to do annoyance because everybody who was on the stage there had been studying improv for 10 years with Napier, with Del close, with all, you know, all of those kind of heavyweights, really. And, and you're, you gotta get inside of that scene. You know what I mean? So it really wasn't badly do I trade one scene for another, you know? And, um, and I had made some really good friends at theater school by that point. Um, although I was not close with my classmates until really the last couple of months of, of, of, uh, of that, of that first year, uh, you know, uh, because I had been, yeah, I don't know.
Jimmy McDermott (01:07:03):
I, I tried to work as much as I could even just, you know, at second city, because I wanted to make money for the time that you were in the casting pool and you couldn't work anymore. And then you were, uh, uh, and it was just like that, that was my social life at that time. The people, the people I worked with there and the people I looked up to there, and I was like, yeah, I want to be around, I I'll go to work tonight so I can watch, uh, Rachel Dratch and Tina Fey do their little, uh, do their, uh, uh, uh, you know, they were honing those, those, those Boston characters, uh, UI, like watching them give birth to that. So those really exciting, you know, and you had a sense there working there that at that time, that it was like, this is like a goal. The people on these stages right now are going to be this next generation of, of comic sensibility in the United States. And they totally were, you know what I mean? That was no surprise to me when they became kind of the, you know, the, the, the, the, the great voices of our time, you know, great is relative, I suppose, but like, you know, the most powerful voices
Speaker 8 (01:08:11):
Do they have, uh, so I guess we've had two other directors on here, but I can't remember if we've asked them bus, tell me if I'm wrong. They don't have some equivalent of the showcase for directors, some way that they're
Jimmy McDermott (01:08:25):
Your, your thesis production was supposed to be that because, uh, and, uh, so that was it, but nobody came to see it, so it didn't matter,
Speaker 8 (01:08:35):
Right? Like, I mean, how, how, how has that comparable there, or did they, did they invite you to come see?
Jimmy McDermott (01:08:42):
Well, you know, th this was an education actually, uh, when I listened to, I listened to your interview with Alison Zell, who mentioned that Jim also has fought to get the thesis productions off campus and like into the victory gardens theater. And the year that I did it, we were at the Athenaeum theater. So him having to, so him taking it off campus and at least creating the potential for somebody to see it in a true theater space in Chicago, uh, I didn't realize he had full fought for that. And so that was a bigger deal. And so that, that actually, uh, he was my, my, my assessment of him was that he was tying to check it out when I, when I got there. And years later, uh, you know, Mt said that labor was a really, that he was a much more checked out than I thought, but I was pleased to learn that the year prior to me coming there, he at least fought for something like that and unmitigated disaster.
Jimmy McDermott (01:09:39):
Uh, no, it was, it was called, uh, slaughter city as a play by Naomi Wallace. Um, and, uh, it was, uh, it, uh, and, and it was, you know, I did everything very poorly and very wrong in it, and it was, uh, uh, uh, so it was, it was really hard. My context though, my dad got sick in the beginning of 1998 and died in November 98. And then the thesis, I started my rehearsals for my thesis on like January 2nd DNO. And it was, it was pretty much a lost cause. Although like I was fighting through it, I was getting up every day and, and doing it. And, and, but like in this very sluggish way, and, uh, the day I got back to Chicago in 99, the, there was this blizzard that was like really honest to God, like four feet of snow, and it didn't melt the entire winter Danno.
Jimmy McDermott (01:10:40):
So it was, it was just, it was as harsh as you could possibly think. Do you know what I mean? Just the whole experience of those months, that rehearsal period leading up to that production were just physical conditions were hard. And I was, I can't, I don't even know if I would say if this biggest mess that, that I've ever been in my life because I was, it, it was, you know, look, I was a 23, 24 year old kid, and I had not dealt with my dad's illness nor his death at all. And, and, you know, and so I was carrying a lot of unprocessed stuff and that obviously, you know, uh, brought itself out in self-flagellation and anger. And, um, and I had an actor in that production that was going through something herself, and it got to a point where I was just like, your grief is nowhere near, as exquisite as mine.
Jimmy McDermott (01:11:39):
And I am going to take this out on you right now, because I don't believe what you're suffering could be possibly any different than I am and I'm coming prepared and I keep showing up and I know what I'm doing, you know, and, and it was, and I knew better than to, you know, do grief comparisons or suffering comparisons or anything like that. But I chose in my righteous anger to like, you know, to say, I'm going to make, and now I'm creating a toxic relationship with somebody that I need to deliver for me to, you know, and it was, it was really and, and, and the product manifested itself exactly how you would think, because that's what it looked like, you know? And it was, uh, uh, yeah, it was a, it was a rough time. And, you know, and I had classmates that said to me, he was like, dude, take a year off.
Jimmy McDermott (01:12:25):
Do you know what I mean? Or, or, or ask if you could do your thesis in the spring instead, because you're not gonna be able to do this. And I was, and, and that was just the, you know, that, that cemented him. He was like, no, I got to do this. You know, my dad would roll over in his grave if I didn't do this, you know, that was, those were the justifications, but I was just no shape to, to see the biggest project that I had in my career at, as a student there. Uh, I was in no shape to see that through and, and, and, you know, and it, yeah, it's suffered greatly. It was, it was, you know, it was, I mean, it had a face, there were good moments. There were really strong performances in it, despite a lot of the stuff that I was very unhelpful with.
Jimmy McDermott (01:13:12):
Um, but, uh, yeah, but it was, you know, it was a mess. And, and one of the only reason, the reason that I w that I probably finished writing the thesis paper and was the only one in my class to do, because I was just like, I have to exercise this, you know what I mean? Exorcised this, you know? Um, and so, yeah, so luckily I did one last production, you know, in a movement room there, um, that I thought was my strongest work there so that it did feel like it ended on something that was, uh, hopeful, you know, but that was a very dark winter and, you know, in, in my life, in that year, and in the experience of being an artist and, and, and my kind of pursuit of that degree,
Speaker 4 (01:14:02):
Did you, did you, but you, you obviously directed after that, so you graduated and you tried, you said nobody wanted it, dude,
Jimmy McDermott (01:14:09):
But I didn't, I didn't direct for probably nearly three years after that I had to, you know, and this was the other thing too. Like the only re the only way I kind of got back into theater was both through, uh, acting and scenic design because people always needed a dude in their play. You know what I mean? And, and, uh, so I was like, yeah, I'll play a small role in this. And it was, you know, just these storefront theater companies, and one in particular called the side project that I did a lot of work with for a long time, um, where, you know, you, you go in as an actor and you just start to develop a relationship with the artistic director and you say, look, this is what I really do. And, uh, actually I found the scenic design, uh, elements, uh, kind of, uh, uh, a stronger way into directing because you're, you're, you're kind of creating the reality of the P you're creating the world of the piece. Do you know what I mean? So people would see your mind working much more in that way than they would you showing up to play a bit role in something, you know? Um, so yeah, but I, wasn't a trained scenic designer. I couldn't draft anything. I just had ideas of like, I, you know, and I wasn't a carpenter either, but I was like, I could build this, I could assemble this. And that's our concept.
Speaker 8 (01:15:27):
It's very spare. It's very open, very deconstructed. Yeah. So, um,
Jimmy McDermott (01:15:34):
But that's what they could afford anyway.
Speaker 8 (01:15:37):
So we obviously talk, talk about the things that actually help people to survive their theater school experience, and you having to grapple with a major loss. It sounds like the way that you, you kind of did the, you kind of did the white knuckling your way through it, version of survival, um, very much, but, but is there anything else you can point to as something that helped you survive? I was going to think it was your peers, but you said you had kind of not really connected with all of them necessarily until the last couple of months.
Jimmy McDermott (01:16:10):
That wasn't the first year by the time I was in my third year. Uh, you know, uh, I mean, you know, uh, absolutely. I mean, you know, really, really, really very close friends. Um, uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, uh, Shane affirm is one of my best friends in the world and she, she was very, uh, uh, you know, she didn't literally hold my hand through like that experience, but, uh, I knew I could always count on her and Jason, Dennis, Zach, and Chris Schultz, Kelly, Holden, uh, Kelly Ogden, uh, uh, those were, you know, those were the people in my life for sure. And, and, uh, so yeah, there were, they were, they were great. I did, yeah, I know by the time I was in my third year, I was completely in the incubator of the theater school. That was, you know, that was, that was, but it was a weird experience because most of you know, to have friends, my core group of friends were mostly undergrad actors, even though I friends with the guys in the MFA, uh, class, too.
Jimmy McDermott (01:17:13):
Um, but, but I lived with undergrad, uh, folks when I first moved there too. So, you know, that, that, that was, uh, and they were all there. The undergrad, we, we lived in an apartment that was apart from Tom Lemaire's coach house thing that he lived there was the closest department and the biggest closest apartment to the campus. So between classes, no matter what, everybody who was a, in the class of 99 was in our house all of the time, everybody. So it was, uh, so it really was just, it was like a stop gap is where you went between classes. You know what I mean? And it was, uh, so you were never alone ever in that house, uh, you know, exponentially in exponent of your roommates, I guess I should say. So, um, that was, and even when I had moved out of that house, I was there more often than I was at the apartment, you know, the studio for a minute lived in.
Jimmy McDermott (01:18:11):
So, uh, yeah, no, but, uh, yes, my, my, my, my, my, my friends and the people I trusted were the only thing that got me through it, although I did elect to spend a lot of that time alone too, because it was, uh, you know, it was, it was just, everything felt as messy as a commitment as it possibly could. And, you know, to a certain extent you were like, I want to spare everyone else, this, this just, you know, anger and frustration. And, and it wasn't even like I would wake up crying or anything like that. It wasn't a, and another thing that helped him, this was a very weird thing. Uh, but I do remember it, uh, there was, uh, uh, an album with one track on it that I would listen to every morning, because every morning I woke up and I was just like, I, I w I'd rather be dead.
Jimmy McDermott (01:19:06):
And, uh, and, but I'd play this one song. And it would, uh, uh, in explicable reasons would, would, would be the thing that would say, okay, soldier on again today. So that was that, it's a very, very, very obscure thing, uh, by, uh, uh, uh, the, the moniker that he went under, this was called Barry black, but he's, uh, he's a songwriter called Eric Bachman. He w he wrote for art. He was the front man for archers of loaf and crooked fingers, uh, was his kind of solo project after that. But he's also done, uh, albums under Eric Bachman, but he, this way was called Barry black was a side project of his, when he was in archers of loaf. Uh, it was a song called golden throat. And for the lyric content doesn't have anything to do with that time or anything, but it was just something about the tenor of his voice, the March of the song. And it was a, one of those songs on an album that Lee led another song that was just this kind of like punk fight song, but with horns, uh, so it was like listening to those two songs and it was in the middle of the album. So I just have to go to those two tracks. So I'd listened to that song and then it would bleed into the other thing. And the other thing was the thing that just made me feel like I could, you know, that like physically got me to my feet.
Speaker 8 (01:20:26):
I love that. I love that. We, I, I lived in an apartment in Chicago where my next door neighbor played the song. I will always love you. And every day, all, all day, all the time.
Jimmy McDermott (01:20:38):
Yeah, yeah. Four months,
Speaker 8 (01:20:42):
She was working through a breakup
Jimmy McDermott (01:20:45):
Where her body guard had just been
Speaker 8 (01:20:48):
Then could have been, she could have been deep into it with Kevin Costner, but, uh, I love that song and I really appreciated that she was going for something, but it is something about, yeah, the, I, I totally know what you're talking about. I can't think of a song I've done that with, but I know I've done that. And it's the repetition, and it becomes like the way that you sort of prep yourself for facing your next emotional journey.
Jimmy McDermott (01:21:13):
Yeah. I mean, I've never had anything quite like that since or anything like that, but, but that's, that's kind of why it particularly sticks out in my mind because it was, it became the ritual. It became like, I was like, yeah, this is, this was, this was, I don't know what the alchemy is there, but it's, it's it is, is, are you going to direct again? Probably not. No. Oh really? Why not? No, no, I haven't done anything for a very long time actually. And so, uh, uh, yeah, I haven't really. Yeah, no, I, I it's, it's it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's over, let's just say you don't want to do it anymore. Uh, I don't know what is on the other side of this, frankly, you know what I mean? And I also know for very good reasons, the professional landscape is gonna change, you know, and I don't solve anybody's PR problems in that respect.
Jimmy McDermott (01:22:18):
So, uh, the, and I've been very, I mean, I'm, I'm five years out of having directed anything professionally. Um, and, uh I've um, so no, I don't know what it is. I don't know what the medium is going to be. Uh, and, and I'm not sour grapes in that at all. Uh, I think it's, it's, uh, uh, and I don't, uh, and, and, you know, I don't live in the city anymore, actually. I live about an hour outside of the city, so, you know, I'm not part of like the, the geographic community really anymore. Um, and I, yeah, I, I don't know. I feel pretty outmoded as an artist, quite, quite, quite frankly, as a theater artist,
Speaker 4 (01:23:14):
Maybe, but like, one thing I've learned in these last five years is you can ignore it for a time and pretty soon it's going to come knocking on your door. So how are you going to get your artistic needs met if you're not,
Jimmy McDermott (01:23:31):
Uh, I think I'd have to, I'm really lazy about it, but I think if, if I'm doing anything, it's going to be about, uh, just kind of reentering short film and making that. And, and that's like, there's no career path in that for me either. It's just that that's, that's where I think I'd have to do it. And I like making film a lot. I haven't done very much of it, but, um, but I like it. And I think I have a knack for that vocabulary.
Speaker 4 (01:24:03):
So maybe you'll direct our, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna film the teaser of our, uh, pilot. So maybe you'll be at our director.
Jimmy McDermott (01:24:13):
I mean,
Speaker 4 (01:24:14):
Here's the thing, I still talk about Jimmy McDermott, German as my favorite theater director and people are like, they remember you, they remember you, I'm like you guys, Jamie McDermott, my favorite
Jimmy McDermott (01:24:28):
Theater director, and people are like
Speaker 4 (01:24:31):
That guy. And I'm like, I don't know, but I'm telling you right now.
Jimmy McDermott (01:24:35):
Exactly. He's asking himself the same question. Um, the, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, uh, I, I was the associate artistic director of an equity theater for a couple of years, too. And, and, you know, so I was, I lived that life, you know, to a certain extent. Um, and it, it was still really, really hard to get war, you know, it's the balance of like, if you commit yourself to an institution you're not available to freelance and the way that you build the resume, that's really exciting to people. Um, and then when you get out and freelance, you're hustling constantly for work. And then I had a very small child, which was one of the reasons I stopped working in an institution because it was like these 16 hour days on the regular are not going to jive with bath time. You know what I mean?
Jimmy McDermott (01:25:30):
So it's like the, uh, when I wanted to be a part of, of, of, of this kid's life, for sure. And, um, the, uh, so, uh, I found, I found parenting and trying to direct for theater in the model that we participate in to be really, uh, in congruent. And, um, although I did it for a while for sure. Uh, but it really was, it was about just chasing everything down. And the only things that were kind of worth pursuing after, while were gigs in academic institutions, because they, they, they paid not particularly well, but they, you know, you, you could at least look at your time and say, Oh, I'm making more than $3 an hour. You know what I mean? And, uh, so it, it did really become a matter of just like, look at the spreadsheet. You know what I mean?
Jimmy McDermott (01:26:25):
And, and, and th this is not yielding dividends. And the thing about a Chicago theater career, and I've heard this said before, is that like, you have to arrive about six or seven times before you arrive. And even when you've arrived, you're still hustling just on a different level. You know, and I had arrived maybe five of those seven times, and I was tapped out because it really, it did get to a point where it was, you know, and I, I, I, I would never throw this at my wife's feet, but, you know, you have a partner at home that's like, wondering, when is this going to pay off? Do you know what I mean? And I didn't have a clear answer for her. And it was deeply unfair for me to try to carry her along in that narrative. And, uh, so yeah, I'd start really opening myself up to other realities.
Jimmy McDermott (01:27:20):
And, and, and, you know, I'm saying this like, Oh yeah, one day I thought this, this was a painful, excruciating years, long extractive process, you know? And, um, yeah, and I, like, I still don't feel great about it necessarily, but, you know, I, I, I like my life a lot. I am very glad that whatever career pursuits I made, didn't jeopardize my family unit ultimately. And, um, so I'll take that, you know what I mean? And, and, and that's, that's, that's about it. And I, I have had an opportunity in the past couple of years to direct some things like at a community type level that we're not plays, but like performance issues, more or less kind of, uh, almost like in like staged concerts and things like that. And they've been fun and really fulfilling on their level. And, and, and, you know, one of the actors I worked on with that is like one of the greatest actors I've ever worked with in my life, and he's a lawyer, you know what I mean? Like, and it's just like, but he was like, you were so good. I can't like no notes, man. That's great. It's, uh, the, uh, uh, but even when you are equipped with everything, you need to make a production happen, it's still the hardest thing in the world. And to electively say, I'm going to do it on a level that's not equipped where everything needs a certain degree of review rehabilitation in order to like, hit the stage. Uh, it just, I'm just not up for that amount of work and inevitable disappointment understood,
Speaker 4 (01:29:02):
Understood. And I know we have to end soon, but boss, can you just tell people about your experience with Jimmy since you're in here? My experience is this, that is a subtle interplay between yes. Well, I happen to love people that refuse to join things. I think that they are, because, because I,
Jimmy McDermott (01:29:22):
I think that's that that's connected me with you too, that, that, that, that, and your, and your, uh, and your, uh, the first conversation you and I have was about the, yeah. The scene from a porno movie.
Speaker 4 (01:29:37):
So I, I just think that there was a way that a quiet way that you have of getting actors to be in the moment that is not abusive and not in your face. And yet you still get the get there and your Mo the way your mind works is a very meticulous without being precious. That's what I'll say. And I so appreciate that.
Jimmy McDermott (01:30:08):
Thank you. That's really great to hear. I, you know, that's, that's interesting. Uh, I, I, because I mean, I, I think people interpret, uh, I'm in a, no, I don't know about abuse, uh, as, as the term necessarily, but people interpret, you know, people draw different boundaries. Let's just simply say that, um, the, the, the, the unfortunate experience I had working at the theater school was such that I think I always knew this because I had an experience in undergrad where I saw this go a little sideways, a couple of times where the instructor was trying to get someone out of something by asking them to use an experience from their own lives, you know, and it was just like, always, well, you know, you got tears out of this person, but is, does that thing that you just made them do have legs and a production?
Jimmy McDermott (01:31:00):
Do you know what I mean? Is this repeatable? Is this just retraumatizing someone? Do you know what I mean? And I found, like I never wanted to work that way because I, it was none of my business. I'm not a licensed anything. And, you know, I, and I don't want to have a situation on my hands that I can't, that I wish I didn't like open that, that gene. Right. And so something that I, that I have used in the past, and I don't think I was using this when I was in a student at the theater school so much, but something that I kind of continued to use afterwards was that, you know, I don't want you, I don't want to ask you about your experience. This isn't a therapy session, but if we're not getting somewhere in a scene, uh, I'll say, look, something analogous to this scene happened to me.
Jimmy McDermott (01:31:51):
And it's a very unattractive thing that I did and said in a way that I behaved and a set of circumstances or an ultimatum that I gave somebody, and it was that dire, you know, and it's one of the most shameful experiences of my life, but that's what happened. And that's what this scene is. And if you're doing anything less than that, we don't have the motor of this thing, you know? Um, and that was very unappreciated by the theater school students. I can say that they, they thought that he shouldn't be exercised. You know, he shouldn't be, you know, using this as a therapy session. And I think that's right. But at the same time, I was like, some things are, you got to have some time. And what you're not telling of the person's story is that as soon as I shared that the scene was great, you actually deliver, you know what I mean?
Jimmy McDermott (01:32:44):
So even when you were trying to avoid an abusive situation or your drawing a boundary or respecting a boundary, or it can be interpreted as an infringement and, and, uh, and you just have to be really careful with that. And that's another reason why I think like, even after that, I, I thought even after that directing experience, I always felt like I walked away with that. And the thing that I learned from the litany of mistakes I made on that was also like, I think I also had to surrender something that was really vital to, you know, which kind of plays into like, why pursue this, if, you know, if, if we're, and particularly if, you know, we're we're, if, when theater re-establishes itself, there's going to be given the last several years, do you know there's going to be so many things in place and so many things that people are watching for.
Jimmy McDermott (01:33:39):
Do you know what I mean? That, like, when, I mean, I think a theater, any experience, any collective artistic experience should have a sense of safety and trust among the people, but we all pursued this in some way, because there was something dangerous about it too. Right? Right. Absolutely. And I don't know how to reconcile those two things. And as part of the reason that I feel like when I say outmoded, I was like, I don't know. I wouldn't know how to go back into it. Do you know, other than just trying to tell the story as, as, as clearly as you can. Uh, I, I, so to a certain extent I have this kind of relief that, like, I feel like I don't have to go back and try to navigate that because I would, I would, I would, uh, fail a lot. Yeah. Well,
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez (01:34:26):
Look for our phone call in 2022, when we we're making the pilot of Kiki, and we need an expert opinion. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Polizzi for information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
Speaker 5 (01:35:08):
Thank you.
Intro: Having the experience of listening and not talking.
Let Me Run This By You: I want to stop doing comparisons.
Interview: We talk to Erikka Yancy about developing an eating disorder, facing the not so nice qualities of her younger self, cutthroat environments, becoming a documentary film producer, going to grad school at AFI, One Flea Spare, being one of only a very few students of color, unlikely hikers.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina [inaudible]. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Multiple projects together? I, for some reason it just never hit me.
Speaker 2: (00:34)
We also had that same. I feel like it's because we never felt like, well, I'll speak for myself. I never felt like I fit in there. So, so if you, if I don't fit in somewhere, I'm not going to be like, Hey, so-and-so let's, but, but you're right. I mean, I think the, the resources and the, um, people available to us are the same people that were available to them. You're so right. I think it just, for me, it's psychology. It just comes down to not feeling worthy or, um, interesting or whatever enough to say to someone, Hey, let's do a project together or let's, you know? Absolutely. And it is sad. And, and I think I always it's through graduation, after graduate, I always had the feeling like I, it was a mistake that they let me stay there. It was a mistake that I was ever led in, in the first place I didn't really belong to, you know, so then you'd think, well, but everybody else did everybody, but me deserved to be there. And so they all get to reuse their cohorts. Right, right. Of, uh, of the school. I mean, I use their connections, reap the rewards. I definitely feel the same way. And I also, I also felt like, and I feel like this at grad school too, that I didn't fit in. And so I didn't use use my grad school connections when I was starting out as a therapist. Like, it's just, I didn't use any of my connections anywhere ever. I have never, I have never.
Speaker 1: (02:09)
Yeah. Even when I was a therapist too, Aaron would always be saying,
Speaker 2: (02:13)
Give me like, like an example was, this is a very, this is not related, but it's related. Ah, I remember when we were living in New York and he was in his residency and I needed a doctor's appointment or something like that. And I called and it, and I kind of needed to be seen urgently, but, um, they didn't have any appointments. And so I had to take one that was whatever, in two weeks, and I told them about it. And he was like, did you say that you were married to me? And I said, no, why, why would I do that? He's like, Gina, you have to say, you have to call back and say, I'm Dr. Krasner's wife. And it made me feel icky, but whatever it is, just the way it works, because sure enough, when I called back, they're like, Oh, why didn't you say something? Of course
Speaker 3: (03:03)
You can come in today.
Speaker 2: (03:06)
Just, I guess it just
Speaker 3: (03:09)
Really bothers me that that is the way that the world works. And, and I, and I have never been one to want to, I've never, I've really ushered like the whole schmoozy nature of this business, which is another one of my failings, like in terms of getting, getting what I wanted out of my career.
Speaker 2: (03:32)
Oh, I mean, I think I totally can relate to that. And I, all I can say is like, I totally relate. And also we're given a chance, thank gosh, now, to start over and to do it in a way that isn't smarmy, but it's also, it comes back to confidence, right? It's a confidence game of like, get in there and swing your Dick and, and own your. And so now I did something, um, like two, two weeks ago when I talked to somebody and I told you, you know, it was through a friend. And, but I did say my ask is that you would, I just to the person I just said, my ask is that you'd read my spec and then it's you. And then, and, and, and if you have any feedback on it, I would ask that you give it to me. And I would also ask that you read our original pilot. And if you have agents and managers in your world, that might like our, our work, please, if you would pass it along and no one was like, Oh my God, you know, she wasn't like, Oh, that's crazy. She was like, okay.
Speaker 3: (04:35)
Yeah. Right, right, exactly. Because everybody also knows before the conversation ever happens, if somebody is asking to chat with you, everybody already knows that there's going to be an ask in there. That that's how it works.
Speaker 2: (04:47)
The thing I was going to say is even when, so I was thinking about like, well, is it me? Is it still the common denominator? So I remember when, um, I had just moved to LA and actually someone said, Oh, I told my agent that there was a hot new Latina in town immediately. I felt terrible. Like, I didn't feel like I deserved that label. Right. Whatever the point is, she was trying to be super helpful. And she made an appointment with me, with her agent. And I went in beans and I bombed the meeting. I sabotaged myself, I sabotage the meeting. I downplayed all my, I had been on two TV shows at the time I downplayed the TV show. I ruined it. I ruined the meeting and I wasn't ready. I wasn't, I couldn't take it in. And now we're just starting to be able to be like, yeah, no, we want to do projects. We want to do this. We're worthy. But it took me to be 45. That's what it took.
Speaker 3: (05:45)
And it takes what it takes. I've been talking about this a lot on, in various rooms, on clubhouse recently. I, you know, it's, it's so fascinating. It's 20, 21 people who are on clubhouse for the most part are on the early adopter side of things. There are these innovators in tech and business and arts, and yet 97% of all rooms are moderated. Mostly by men have mostly men on stage. Many of these stages have a token woman who only gets called upon, like to fact check something, or even in the town hall. You know, it's founded by these two guys and they have these town hall meetings and there's a woman on there. But her job is to run the meeting and ask the question, you know, she's like, has an admin function. I don't know what her job job is, but on this town hall thing, she has an admin type function. And so many people use that. And it's, and let me tell you a few things I've seen recently, I've seen a room called let's talk about menstrual health run by two men. Oh my God.
Speaker 3: (06:59)
I heard a woman telling me yesterday about a group where, well, I don't know if this was in the title of the room, but when she went in there, she's a black woman. And when she went in there, it was two guys talking about what it's like to grow up. Black, two white guys. Um, Oh my God. I participated in a room called there is no such thing as patriarchy convinced me otherwise where I raised my hand and other women presumably raised their hand and were never called up on stage. And it was mostly just men on the stage. Yeah. So like, no, even in this sphere, we are still, still so woefully behind. And I think that they've, the founders have gotten feedback about the inherent racism and misogyny that exists on this app because of course it would because it exists in the world and how could it, how could this be any different? And it was okay.
Speaker 2: (08:02)
Graded by two guys, you know? So yeah, exactly. Hopefully we get, Oh, that leads me to, to the story of, um, speaking of tech and innovators of Elizabeth Holmes, the they know. Yes, I love so I'm behind on that story. So, um, Elizabeth Holmes is the, is the, the Stanford dropout, right? For people. Everyone probably knows this but me. But last night I watched a whole special on her, um, who started, uh, Theranose right. Therapy and diagnosis put together a blood testing machine and gonna gonna, um, just revolutionize lab testing while she was a fraud.
Speaker 3: (08:44)
But, but she was,
Speaker 2: (08:47)
It was fascinating. I mean, she changed her voice.
Speaker 3: (08:50)
Do you know this?
Speaker 2: (08:53)
Oh yeah, totally. Like, this is how she, she started talking. I mean, I'm fascinated by those things because of my therapist and true crime background. I mean, I get the fraud MIS and I it's, again like Pablo macaroni, whose name is in Pablo macaroni. We find out now forgive me Pablo macaroni. But like, it it's that mass delusion thing, but she was a woman who did it. And man, the black turtlenecks, the I'm fascinated by her fascinated. I think that she's amazing.
Speaker 3: (09:26)
Did you watch the HBO documentary about her or you watched it okay. 20, 20.
Speaker 2: (09:31)
I just watched the 2020, cause I don't have HBO, but yeah.
Speaker 3: (09:36)
What are you talking about? You have a whole profile on my HBO, max. I made a profile for you. I've given you my log in information to watch up in a watch. It's a, what is it? I forget what that one is called, but you'll see it under your documentaries. Yeah. It's so good. It's so good. And yeah, she's crazy. And whatever she deserves to be punished, but at the same time, it's like, she's just doing what every other, you know, guy who needed not, I mean, not, not to say that every guy has like in a scammer, but just to say, like she, she got over on the system in a way that so many men before her have done
Speaker 2: (10:21)
And the journalism, the telling of the story, of course they, you know, it's so skewed. They were like, and she was able to rap Kissinger and she'll and all her board members around her little finger, because with those sparkling penetrating blue eyes, I'm like, you've got, come
Speaker 3: (10:37)
On. Yeah. So gross.
Speaker 2: (10:39)
No, she was smart conniving. Um, brilliant. And, um, and had some serious, uh, personality problems going on. And she was, she used her, she, she got over on you stop. It's just because she's exactly blue eyes.
Speaker 3: (10:56)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That I forget. I feel like that documentary might have like four or five parts to it, so you'll, you'll enjoy it. Yeah. Um, wait, so what got us started talking about confidence
Speaker 2: (11:11)
About tech, like how she was on the cutting edge of tech and clubhouse and just Silicon Valley in general and how gross and male dominated. And she just walked in and was like, no, I'm here to take over. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (11:26)
Even there was a room that I went into called, um, men, something like men need to men need to, it wasn't this, but something on the order of like men need to be feminists too. And when I went into the room, it was all men in stage. And I thought, well, that makes sense. So, because they're talking about the role that men need to play, but there were so many in the audience and they weren't talking, they simply weren't talking. So here's my idea for an experiment. I want to figure out a way that I could have a room. And I don't know if I would want to say it in the title of the room or not where the idea is men would be encouraged to come into the room and not speak. So part of why these things perpetuate is because it's just what everybody's used to.
Speaker 3: (12:34)
Everybody just keeps doing the same thing. So it takes like a radical paradigm shift in order for literally literally ask every man, you know, how many times they've been in a situation where something important is being discussed, whether it's at school, in a professional setting, even in a social setting where it's, um, we're where people are talking about something, you know, important. How many times have you been in that setting? And it's only women talking and the men aren't listening. Yeah. Zero times, zero times. Zero times. 0.0, zero, zero times. Yeah. And so it makes sense that so many men have the experience of like, they can't hear, like they don't hear women when they're talking. It just sounds like noise to them because they have no experience with it because every, a system, every construct that exists is predicated on this thing. Like, don't worry, the men, men will tell you what, you know, like even feminists I'm sure suffer with this thing of wanting, you know, always wanting a, a male voice to be in the mix of this. So it would be, and I don't know how, if it said that in the title, I'm sure no men would come if it didn't say that in the title. But then it was just every time a man raised his hand to get on stage, he didn't get on stage. And then so he left. I don't know how to word it in such a way that men would want to come into the room and, and stay if they're not being called upon.
Speaker 2: (14:17)
Interesting. I it's such a, maybe someone, maybe if you said like, we need you to come in and, and we need you to listen and just listen. And I don't know if anyone would come and you, and you might, but I think, I think that it, it, it's a good experiment to be explicit in the title and see what happens because, and just be explicit like men, uh, women, a group for men to listen to. I don't know. But yeah, I think just be explicit and see what happens, maybe someone, but then my question is, would it be men who are already
Speaker 3: (14:52)
Semi-conscious and enlightened that would come and listen and the men who really need to listen? I don't know. But honestly, it's all men, even the conscious ones and the enlightened ones. I swear to God, men who I love all the men who I love in my life, who I think inherently have good values. I mean, that's what I'm saying. It's like, it's not even their fault. It's simply so foreign. This, the whole concept behind it is just so foreign that all of the men that I know who are great men would probably be really frustrated in a situation where they weren't allowed to talk. W not only are they not allowed to talk, because they're used to that, they're used to a group of women talking and then they just don't get involved. But they have zero experience with a group of women are talking and they're listening and they can't, or don't feel comfortable, you know, or maybe they have, if it's, you know, maybe if you grew up in a household of women and you were the only boy.
Speaker 3: (15:51)
Yeah, you got used to that. So those are probably the exceptions to the rule. But, um, for the most part, men have not had that experience. No. And I think that even if they, like you said, even if they do have the experience, they may be check out on purpose. So they're not really listening. Right. So that's right. That's not the point, right. To check out and go think about something else. Basically what you're saying is we need them to be in prison for a little bit to just before, before solicit, like they do impact victim impact statements, like when they, but it's sad, but it seems like the only way that, you know, sometimes it's like being forced, it's like retraining remind training, like the cult de deprogramming deprogramming is what it is. But I mean, I don't know how to do that without breaking laws really. But, but, uh, and in those victims, by the way, in those victim impact things, nine times out of nine, the guy's like, please, I CA this is, I can't take it anymore. This is torture. It's like, Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: (17:08)
Let me run this by you. I would like,
Speaker 3: (17:20)
I would like to try to eradicate or diminish, uh, comparisons in my life. So whether that's, I'm comparing myself to somebody else who has something that I want or who doesn't, and I feel better than them or worse than them, that is completely unhelpful. Even though I know it's humans and we all compare ourselves to each other, but I'm also talking about the kind of comparisons that we all end up and it, it may ultimately be for a good cause. So I don't, this is what I want to run by you. I'm not sure if we need to get rid of this type of comparison, but what I hear a lot of people say, when they're speaking their mind about something is something akin to, I know I haven't suffered like you, but I know what I have to deal with is nothing compared to what you have to deal with. I know it's not, not a great comparison because you had this and I have this, I think it's kind, and it's nice to be deferential and respectful. If you are talking about something that you feel like it's weird that you would be comparing these two things, but does it really serve no anything?
Speaker 2: (18:38)
Well, no, because with, with, with the, uh, what it is, is, and it's very, it's very meta. So what it is is even in the, in the art of doing that, there is a subtle, uh, comparison. That's obviously less than D a power play. So by saying, I know I haven't suffered like you, what you're really saying is actually I have suffered, but I'm pretending this is how I see it, but I'm pretending I haven't suffered. So it can be really kind. But I think a lot of times it serves to actually comparison, do more of a comparison and separate people from each other and breaks a connection that otherwise might be there. If you just said, this is my experience, and it's the truth for me without having to even bring the other person into it. But that's very challenging. It's a very challenge.
Speaker 3: (19:31)
Yes. Why, why isn't it just implicit that if I'm just telling you about an experience, I have, it is unique to me because it can't be anything other, just as your experience can only be unique to you. And, and if we're saying this, has this been coming up recently, it's been coming up in terms of yeah. Um, you know, or, or let's see here. Um, I want to tell you about, about this, like a particular topic. I don't think I should talk about on the podcast. Um,
Speaker 2: (20:11)
It's Arctic. Um, well, I can think about it in terms of when I used to do group therapy, um, both as a facilitator and I've been in group therapy, you get it a lot. So whose trauma is more important and who's the underlying thing is this is what I noticed. The underlying thing is people are basically saying, and I've done it too. And I, when I've done it, I've said my trauma is not being paid attention to. It's very important to me. I feel, again, always comes down to, for me, I feel less. I feel unheard. I feel disconnected and I want to be special. And, and that is the root of most of my problems. But I think, and I think that if people say right, cause if someone says to me, I mean, I know that I've only lost one parent and I know they're genuine. People are trying to be nice, but if people are like, I've only lost one parent, you lost two. Actually it makes me feel worse because I'm like, Oh yeah, I've lost two. I must be. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (21:15)
Right. Like they're saying, like, I know I'm not up as you. I know I'm not as pitiful as you are. Yeah. And like also the, the circumstance, this is under which people are usually having these conversations is as an, in an attempt to feel connected. Right. Or to like, to make some meaning out of their terrible experiences. So you telling me that you haven't had, yeah. It only serves to make me feel other, which isn't at cross purposes with feeling connected and, and healing. It really is at cross purposes with healing. If you're talking about something like people comparing each other's trauma people and, and it comes up for me when I'm talking about something related to feminism or misogyny. And then I think, well, but I don't have the experience of a person of color. Who's a woman. That's really the person who like, you know, it ends up being like, that's the only person who can really speak to them.
Speaker 2: (22:13)
That is such a great point. So that leads me to the point. That is so good because that leads me to this reading that I was in that imploded. And I can speak about it because it was the truth. It's what happened. But I can speak from my point of view, which was, I had to take a stand because I was sick of letting the person who I felt was being, um, unnecessarily targeted. I had to be an ally to that person because that's what I committed to do. And so I didn't want to leave it to her, the person, the black woman to have to speak up against something that, that she felt was going on in this reading that was really, really hurtful and, and, um, and not helpful and troubling. And, but I said, why am I leaving it to that person?
Speaker 2: (22:58)
So I think when we ha when we're trying to leave it to someone, it's two different things. I do think it comes from a good place of saying, uh, it can have, like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna speak for this person. But then I think what true allyship is saying, well, I'm not going to speak for this person, but I'm gonna speak for myself about watching what's going on and not feeling that it's okay. So I wrote a letter to the head of the company and said, this isn't okay. I don't, you know, it's not, it doesn't matter that it's not happening to me, but that's not an experience, but I'm witnessing something that is not okay. And I think that that serves to connect people rather than disconnect and say, well, I'm not going to speak for this person. I mean, I wasn't speaking for her anyway. But what I was doing is, was speaking myself as a witness and an ally to what I was witnessing. And I was like, no, not on my watch. That's where it comes down to, not on my watch. And I have to remember that because I think that right, there's a fine line between speaking for someone and speaking on behalf of them, but for yourself, it's really tricky in feminism or racism or any of the isms. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (24:11)
So what was the, so they just canceled it because, because
Speaker 2: (24:15)
It became totally unsafe. It became, and this is, this is, and it comes down to, and this is interesting because it's about theater and it can relate to the theater school and stuff like that. Where when you take on a project, I feel like it's essential that if you are the, and someone brought this up, we had a debriefing and someone brought this up in the debriefing with the company minus the director. Um, it's essential that you do the research on who is helping what project and why. So you can't just direct something. Well, you can, but as a company, you might want to say, like, who are we choosing to direct this piece of this piece of art that deals with racism, sexism, all the isms in the 1950s in the ninth, in 2015, that's when it took place in two different time arrows.
Speaker 2: (25:05)
And are we choosing someone to, to helm this, that we really feel can do it in a way that is very safe and respectful? Not everybody is meant to direct everything and not every actor is meant to be in every show. And so it was a huge learning for me. Is that like in that yeah, it's like, let's take care of who we're choosing to, to, um, bestow power on, because inherently the director has power, right. And so it's like, is this person equipped internally, um, to, to use that power in a, in a way for, you know, for the good of the play and it takes some digging and you can't just say, yeah, go ahead. Do it. You know, if you're a company, it blew up, it blew up. And I think it was like, people weren't equipped.
Speaker 3: (25:57)
And was this a mostly white theater company?
Speaker 2: (26:00)
I think so. I know the heads, I believe the heads are like the artistic director and the is, and then I think the other people are, I think they have a couple of people of color on the board maybe, but mostly it was yes. And the, and the, and the director was, was a white, was a white woman and there was one black, um, castmate. And she, and that was, it was, it was a mess. It was a mess. It was in the scope of the project got too big and it just became, it was like one of these things that blew up in a week. It was crazy. It was crazy.
Speaker 3: (26:36)
So that's an interesting thing about that. You had a debrief and the director wasn't there, and now that sounds appropriate because sounds like the director was the problem. And, but it was, do you know if there was a plan for the director to be debriefed about what they did?
Speaker 2: (26:52)
Yeah. I think someone asked and they said yes, that we're talking with her where, because I believe that she's also an artistic associate of the company. I don't think she's a member, but I, I'm not sure. So I know that they said they were going to, um, so hopefully that took place because if not, nobody knows what's going on and they just think, Oh, what happened? And I guess, onto the next, you know, you know, if they don't do
Speaker 3: (27:17)
Right, right, right. That's right. It just keeps prepaying if you don't debrief. And in some ways it's not really related to comparison, except for, I feel like what needs to be done with comparison is more integration and less separation. But, um, if you don't debrief, it just becomes everybody apologizing for a bad thing. And then just brushing it under the rug and moving on. That's like the people whose approach to dealing with conflict in life is just to apologize. And it ends there. And I feel like people really tell themselves that they did such a great job if they were just able to say, I'm sorry, and that is a part, but it's just step one. And then the next thing is like, let's unpack what happened here. Why did you have this urge? What, you know, because these systems like I'm describing the system that we're in most men have never had this experience of listening to women.
Speaker 3: (28:14)
There, we have a tendency to talk about them in these very theoretical ways. And what we need a lot more of is just, this is how we have to do it now. Like, you know what I'm saying? It needs this. It's like why we need reparations, because you're never going to get past all of this generational trauma, unless you re start by apologizing, which I think, I think that's the only thing that's been done so far as apologizing for slavery. Then you work, then you talk about how you're going to repay for all of this lost labor, you know, income and, and, and, and then setting up new systems whereby there's more equity anyway. So yeah, that sounds like it was the best that that thing got canceled.
Speaker 2: (29:13)
Yeah. Some projects just, you know, when I said I need to be canceled. And I did say to the artistic director, I said, listen, part of, um, uh, the trusting and being inclusive and is also knowing when to say, no, this isn't working. Like you call it at certain points. You call the project and you debrief about the emotional trauma that happens because of the project, but you still call the, you call it, you just say, that's it. So I said, sometimes being the most loving, responsible thing to do is say, no, we're not moving forward. Yeah. And that's just how I feel with certain things, because it's too, it's too much, you've gone too far. There's too much trauma. And so that's what happened. And you know, it's too, it's too bad, but it's also part of part of life. And we're knowing
Speaker 5: (30:07)
That's right. And it, and experience is still totally valid because if somebody learns something in the experience, then in a way, that's the job of art. Anyway, it's still today. The process we have Erica Yancey, the lovely Erica Yancey, who is a documentary and independent film producer. Yeah. She's a producer. She was an actor. She's still, she says she sometimes still acts here and there, but she's primarily a documentary producer and she loves it. She loves telling stories that way. And it was interesting to hear about it. It was. And also she, um, is an advocate for, um, embrace, uh, embracing outdoors and exercise for people who don't traditionally get associated with doing those behaviors, like people of color and people with different body shapes. And so you'll have to check her out on her Instagram, which I think we say it at the end of the episode,
Speaker 2: (31:06)
She's a tr I just had to do a cheesy joke. She's a trailblazer in more ways. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (31:11)
Oh yeah. I love it. I love it. Please enjoy our interview with Erica UNC. So congratulations. You survived theater school. And for that you deserve a medal as we all do.
Speaker 6: (31:33)
I've been reflecting on my time at theater school. And it's interesting. Cause I was listening to some of your past episodes and I was like, I don't know that I had that hard of a time at theater school, but then I was like, Oh wait. But all of the things I took up at theater school that were like negative and bad that followed me out. Um, yeah. So yeah.
Speaker 5: (31:59)
What does that mean that you, at the time that you were experiencing it, you didn't find it to be negative and so that, which has been kind of your story about it.
Speaker 6: (32:10)
And so, I mean, there's a couple of things when I think back about theater school that, yeah. I, first of all, I think I was, I don't think I know. I was like, Oh, like not very nice. Um, I was doing well, like all the teachers loved me and I thought I was doing, I was such a hot shot. Like by third and fourth year, I was pretty like, not even in second year cause I was doing well, I don't know part of the problem, like part of the competition and part of the, um, like we were like me and another person who I was friends with at the time would sit in class when cut system was still happening. And we would be like, this is great for your podcast years. But we would be like,
Speaker 5: (32:56)
Oh, she's doing, doing scissors with her fingers.
Speaker 6: (32:59)
Cause fingers showing like, Oh, this person's getting cut. And like, that's folded at theater school. That was not something that I was like before then. And then the other thing that sort of came up for me was when it got time for exit year, her exit classes and you know, everybody was printing out their resumes and putting their weight on their resumes. I became very fixated on, um, my weight and I lost a bunch of weight my senior year. And that was actually the beginning of my eating disorder, which I add, um, could be helping people would come up. I had teachers come up to me and be like, you know, it's so great. Um, and I wasn't getting tapped in good roles before I lost weight. And then I got cast in better roles after I lost weight. And I was like, well, this is, this just means, you know, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And they would be like, um, I had one teacher say, I'm so glad you lost weight because you were too heavy for your age. And I was like, who said that to a 19 year old? What is going on with you? Yeah, it was awful. And so I was like, okay, this is a, this is a good time. This is the thing I should be doing. And, and that, that kind of negative body image. And, um, I didn't have a super negative body image until theater school. And so, and then shortly after, so yeah.
Speaker 5: (34:28)
So how did you deal with that after you left? Um, I mean, you're, you're calling it an eating disorder, so I'm, I'm guessing that means you're, you've been in treatment for it at least at some point.
Speaker 6: (34:39)
Yes. I've been in, I was in therapy for a long time because I didn't really realize what was happening until I moved to LA and then somebody was like an eating disorder. Cause I didn't, I'm not, and I'm a, I was a binge eater and a compulsive over exerciser. I used to exercise a lot, uh, fourth year of school. And um, and even when I moved out to LA and was like this corner and I was like, no, I know. And it probably took me a good five years to finally be like, Oh, okay. So that's what this is. And um, really dismantling it is a years long. I can still dismantling it. Um, how many years out of theater school? And I'm still like, okay, this is not a real thing. Like I don't have to count calories every day. I don't have to do this every day. I'm not a bad person if I have a piece of cake, but that is the kind of thing that kind of ate away at me. And I was getting positive reinforcement at school. So it didn't seem like a bad thing at the time. It seems really positive
Speaker 5: (35:45)
By the way. So many eating disorders start with that, a person losing weight for whatever reason. And then everybody, I mean, like just wrapping their arms around them practically and, and just endless compliments. I, it took me a long time before I realized that it's not good to ever comment on somebody's weight loss or awake. Like it's just, it's none of your business. And so shut the up about it.
Speaker 6: (36:12)
Yeah. Cause you have no idea what's going on with that person. You know? Um, I gained weight recently, but it's recovery weight, you know, like if somebody were to say to me, Oh, you're putting on some pounds, but I'm, I'm healthy to like, you know, so it's, that's a good point, you know, like it's, you just never know what someone's going through and you really can't ever comment. It's just, it's literally none of anyone else's business.
Speaker 7: (36:40)
Yeah. And also the idea of putting our weights on our resume. I remember, I remember, um, leaving, obviously leaving the acting world and getting back into it and a casting director saying, don't put that on that's nobody's stop. No one does that anymore. Stop. That's crazy. And I was like, what? I just thought people did. And no, of course I never told the truth about it. It wasn't like I was putting the right one on anyway,
Speaker 5: (37:10)
Erica to have, I don't know if you've ever heard about this, but one of the things that we've learned in doing this podcast is that, um, at Carnegie Mellon and other conservatories, there was weigh ins, there were wins. No.
Speaker 6: (37:28)
So I've been thinking a lot about like conservatory education in general. And part of the reason why I was like trying to think back about theater school. And I was like, it wasn't that hard, but I think it was part of the problem. Um, but also I went to a film school for, uh, grad school that was a conservatory and that was insane. And I think the problem is conservatory. They feel like they have this license to pretty much say whatever they want to you to try to get the best work out of you. Um, and, and like for some reason, abusive and be in being able to withstand abuse is some like some badge of honor. And it's, it's completely unnecessary. You know, there are incredible actors and creators who weren't abused during their education. And, and um, I think it's probably part of the conservatory world. When you say that that happens at Carnegie Mellon and other schools, like I think that kind of cutthroat I hardness happens.
Speaker 5: (38:28)
That's a good point when, when anything is niche or, you know, small in some way it does, it does seem to engender type of an environment that leads to abuse
Speaker 7: (38:39)
Calls are the same way that we talk a lot about Colts on this podcast, but it's true. It's like, it's kind of like a cult, a conservatory. And, and I, I, you know, I just, I feel so sad that we, that that existed when we were so young, but clearly you survived and you're thriving. So I'm, I'm grateful for that. But man, that is I, did you feel competition like a lot of competition in theater school where you really,
Speaker 6: (39:09)
I don't remember second year. I don't know if somebody actually, I think somebody actually said this to me and they were like, well, you're not going to get cut because you know, my, my year, um, they want a hundred of us in first year, which is too many. And then they cut us in half, which is so awful. And then they cut us in half, again after second year. And so I'm like, that's just horrible. But people will be like, well, you'll be around because the casting pool means black people. And I was like, okay. So I remember having like a horrible, like trying to really prove myself, um, outside and being like, I'm a good actress. It's not just because I'm black that they're keeping me here. Um, that was, yeah. So I mean that kind of competition. Yes. I felt competition in like the casting, the casting, although I felt like by third year I wasn't getting what I really wanted anyway. And I was sort of being relegated to like roles. Um, I felt what I felt were poop roles. Um, but the, the competition was more along the lines of who could get the best comments from who got a good job in class that day. You know, you did, you did this really well. And I worked really hard to get those compliments and those pats on the back because I am a people pleaser. And so I will do whatever you want me to do to make sure that I'm staying in your good graces.
Speaker 5: (40:47)
I'm interested in this idea that you you're saying about you were part of the problem or you, you were mean, or, I mean, that, that thing about talking about getting cutting people while you're in class does sound pretty mean, but did it, I was going to ask if that came from this feeling of competition, if it felt like you needed to kill or be killed
Speaker 6: (41:07)
Absolutely. 100%. That was about me for calls about my own insecurities, but it was about me needing to stay on top and needing to have a gauge that I measured myself against like, Oh, that person's doing is not better than me. I'm definitely the best person in this class. I'm definitely one of the two, like we are near the good, we are the good class or we are the good, um, group of, of people. And yeah, it was all about the competition, but I'm, I'm a little bit competitive anyway, not to the point where I start, I mean, definitely in theater school, I was like I said, like not kind, um, most of the time, well, you know, when it came to things like competing and, and, and being better than somebody, and I feel like I'm not articulating this very well. Um, I, I really feel like, um, yeah, like the, the environment sort of bred that sort of cutthroat attitude to, um, be the best and all others. Right. And to make sure that other people knew where they stood in, um, yeah. In their play, in, in the place in the class.
Speaker 3: (42:31)
But to be honest, you guys did have a really good class. Like, you know, I I'm just sitting here thinking, okay, well, but, but, but, um, Dave and John, I mean, you, you had some like superstar, I guess I must have felt competition. I, it's not possible to not, but I, Steven yet don't really register it in that way. Um, it could be because I didn't possess certain attributes that other people did. So I like, wasn't like, I wasn't even in the race for, for a, for a certain type of role. Um, but I, I, it does seem like it's possible that the more talented your classes, the more, I mean, cause I, I, we haven't talked and talked to anybody yet about specifically competition among the men with Dave because, you know, Dave got like really, really, really great roles. I imagine people felt a certain type of way about that. You know,
Speaker 6: (43:39)
Dane was actually in the class, but Dave and John were in the class behind me, my class, I was in the class behind you with Jen joined at some point. And the only person from our class that's like really broken out, got cut. And that was just the Cora
Speaker 3: (44:06)
First look, deal with AMC, by the way, or something, pick up a cut. I thought he stayed. Okay. Yeah. That's the other thing is just the Erica, you were so freaking talented that the other thing is, I'm not sure what you were feeling was, was not, does that make sense?
Speaker 7: (44:32)
Like I think people who were really good, like you, I remember seeing you in one flea spare, right. And you were, you were, you were the lead and once the spare and I was like, you, you were so talented. So I think it's interesting. Cause when we talk about this stuff, I think it's real that people who are talented, like, and beads brought this up a little bit, like people aren't going to be jealous. And so I think it feeds itself and then you have to kind of maintain this. I'm the best kind of thing, because someone wants to knock you off your it's just like you said, Erica, it's the conservatory itself feeds on that. It's a small cult. Right. So it that's exactly how cults operate. So I just want to point out that the, that the two things that you were very, very, very talented and that the cult feeds on that of sort of who's the best. Now who's the best now who's the best now, you know? So, but I don't want to take away the fact that you could act your butt off. You know what I mean? Like I just don't want to take away from that.
Speaker 6: (45:30)
You, I really appreciate that. Um, and I think that there's some validity to that, right? Like you, um, we all fought the fight to stay at the top. Why somebody can't do better than you in anything. Somebody can't get a better role than you getting. Once we spare, like, I felt the energy from people after getting cast in that, um, which is so weird, you know, when you look back, you're like, this is a college, like everybody chill out. This is not going to be what makes or breaks anyone, but it's hard to recognize that. And it's hard to see that. And there's definitely a, an element of fighting to stay on top. Um, yeah. And then, you know, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 7: (46:18)
No, I was just going to say, but I mean actually you say what you were going to say first,
Speaker 6: (46:24)
I haven't switched direction 100%. So you should say what you were going to say.
Speaker 7: (46:29)
Yeah, mine, mine is a little bit of that too, just to say that, um, I, I didn't get to see you in that much stuff, but I do remember you as being talented. So, but you left theater school, you did acting, and now you're a producer. So at some point you made an important career shift and I was just wondering what, what was entailed in that?
Speaker 6: (46:52)
It was, you know, it was, I was, um, asking here in Los Angeles that I had a manager. I was booking work, not a lot, not as much as I did in Chicago, but I still didn't want to move back. And, um, I started seeing a therapist for my eating disorder and I had, this is awful. This is not the God it's never happened at theater school. I had been a back three times for a commercial, for a national commercial. And they cast me and I showed up for the, um, fitting and I, and I, them, I was a size eight, but a curvy size eight and the clothes they had were junior size, eight or seven eight, and they didn't fit. And I lost the job. I got fired. They pulled me because I had been to three callbacks and they passed me and I didn't fit the clothes or whatever.
Speaker 6: (47:48)
And I was like, Oh my God, it's the first time that's ever happened to me. And then, um, they went and talked to my manager and was like, well, no, you got to lose, you have your, at the wounds. Um, you have to lose 20 or gain 50. And I was like, okay. And I saw my therapist shortly after that. And she was like, listen, you can be an actress or you can recover from your eating disorder. And I was like, okay, well, I was in GuideWell recover. And I luckily wasn't an in class out here at the time that was making us do our own short films. Um, and I really enjoyed it. And so I applied to go back to school. Um, I went to a con uh, film conservatory here called AFI American film Institute and, um, studied producing there. And that's how that happened.
Speaker 5: (48:39)
Okay. That's I mean, yeah, that, that really hit me in the middle of my soul soul. You can be in it, you can be an actress or you can recover from your eating disorder, just out of curiosity. I, when you said the thing about the clothes, the first thought that came to my mind was, and I bet this commercial wasn't, it didn't even matter, like whatever it was for.
Speaker 6: (49:02)
No, I don't even remember what it was for. It was like direct TV or it was something like, not what I could literally have just gotten me a size 10 pants. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (49:12)
And just go to target, just go to target and get some different pants. Right.
Speaker 6: (49:19)
It was mortifying. It was humiliating. And then on top of that, it was just infuriating because I did study, you know, um, classical theater, sorry, I'm going to bark one more time. That's enough. I did study classical theater. Sorry. Um, and then I'm being told that I am not worthy because I am not the right size. Yeah. So I was like, peace out. I will make things for myself. I mean, I would be lying. It's like me deciding to become a producer race. Wasn't also a large part of that. Like I wanted to see more representation and it's funny now because I'm not doing anything that would yield that I produce documentaries, but, um, yeah, I, I just found a way to still be creative and still be involved in the entertainment industry, which I love, um, by creating content instead of sort of being the piece that moves around. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (50:25)
But did you want to an actress when you were a child?
Speaker 6: (50:30)
I can't remember a time when I wasn't performing and wasn't acting, I used to do, um, Annie, my sister and I used to perform Annie for my grandparents and for my parents, we'd sing all the songs. We would do it all the time. Like I was always performing. I did, um, before, before theater school, I would, was in tons of community theater in Indiana. Um, and I knew that I wanted, I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to be an actress. And then the end, the business is just not as pure as my desire was. Um, and I still, I asked occasionally Rick Murphy and Rob Adler have a class here in LA. I took that class for several weeks. It was a lot of fun. I only stopped because I got too busy. Um, and then COVID happened. Um, but I still love to perform, I still love acting. I love talking to you guys right now, um, which is like kind of performing, but, um, there was just something for my own personal, um, health and my own mental health that I had to take a step back for.
Speaker 5: (51:40)
Definitely by the way, I just wrote down that quote, the business wasn't as pure as my desire. Wow. That's [inaudible] or you can recover. Yeah. And that makes me think you're a writer too.
Speaker 6: (51:59)
I write, I write, I haven't written in a long time, but I am a writer and of course writing is a large part of producing. Um, but, um, I used to, I used to write a lot about race and politics because I worked for a political, um, production company when I first got out of school, out of grad school. And, um, yeah. Right. Well,
Speaker 5: (52:23)
I don't think I knew that writing was a big part of producing. How, how is that?
Speaker 6: (52:28)
Well, it sort of depends. Okay. So it depends on what you're talking about as a producer. So for me as a direct, a documentary producer, finding story, pulling story together, um, maybe, um, even writing voiceover, you're all, you're sort of composing the story when you're producing like a feature narrative, like narrative film, it's different because you're just producers do like so many different things that it really depends on what kind of producer you are. So I'm like a, I'm a story producer. I'm a creative producer. Um, uh, more so than like a logistical producer, like figuring out where this goes and that goes, although I do that too, like it's one of those catch all term producers, like sort of a catch all term for a lot of things. Right.
Speaker 5: (53:14)
And how did you, uh, get involved? I mean, sounds like you exclusively do documentaries now, how did that happen?
Speaker 6: (53:21)
So I was a, um, uh, after I got out of grad school, I was an assistant. I was a really bad assistant for a celebrity, um, a guy who was an actor and turned director, which I was horrible. Um, but he was also pretty horrible. Um, he, uh, we, we had all of these projects that were just like spring break or another procedural and just like so boring. And I was like, I want to do things that are like making a difference that matter, that are changing minds about things. So I started working, I interned as a paid intern at this company called brave new films, which did the Walmart movie and outfoxed and Iraq for sale. And I worked, I was there for three years and then I was just like, I love this. I don't ever want to do anything else. I've documentaries where I want to be. I want to talk about real stories and real people and learn things as I work. So that's how I got there.
Speaker 7: (54:25)
No, that is interesting. And I, I, I just, I think it's, again, we talk a lot about how at the theater school, what would have maybe been helpful is if someone said, no, you were, you were appearing to thrive at the theater school. So this is, but we do talk about saying, like, to kids, Hey, have you ever thought about producing or writing or, or, or directing? I mean like why? Cause you clearly had that in you too. And it's like, let's, let's foster that. So it just would have been amazing. Maybe if they had said, Oh my God, you have your, your together in terms of this and this and this Erica, let's also turn you onto a producing situation instead of like, you know, pitfalls of just being, trying to be a, uh, a skinny actor, you know, it's like, Oh, but I'm glad you found it. I'm glad you found it. When you, when you did, how did you end up at AFI? Like, how did you say, okay, I'm going back to school.
Speaker 6: (55:22)
I felt I ended up, I ended up at ASI very similarly to how I ended up at DePaul. Um, I was like, what's the best school in my area for me to go to. Hmm. And then I just, I on a whim, like I applied and got it and got in, um, which is how I applied for DePaul. I was like, I want to go to acting school. And my parents were like, you can only go three hours away from us. And we live in Indianapolis. Um, so I applied early decisions to DePaul and, um, got in, even though my guidance counselor told me I was not going to get in that it was,
Speaker 7: (55:59)
Oh, that's great. That's great guy.
Speaker 6: (56:03)
And I got in and was like never talking to you again.
Speaker 7: (56:06)
Yes. Yeah. And did you know, by the way we had John Jenkins on, um, I had never heard this before. He said that when he was there and a part of the, um, audition to get in, uh,
Speaker 5: (56:24)
Side of things that they would have like 900 applicants,
Speaker 6: (56:30)
Are you serious?
Speaker 5: (56:32)
I'm serious. So if, if your class was narrowed down to 100 and then to 50 and to 25, which by the way, John Bridges told us that there was no number was no quota. It's just a big coincidence. But every single person says they went by half the first year and white half the second year. So that everybody's graduating class was one quarter of what they started with
Speaker 6: (56:58)
That is not a coincidence. And it's nice that you think it was,
Speaker 5: (57:03)
Do you remember your audition to get into the theater school?
Speaker 6: (57:07)
I do. I do. I remember. Um, Oh my gosh. So David ad Kali was one of the people remind me to come back to David was one of the people in the room. I don't remember who else was there, maybe Melissa Meltzer. And then, um, I did, I'm so embarrassed. I did a monologue from the wool gatherer, which they must've seen a million times, but the one where the birds are dying and there's blood like dramatic one. Um, and then there's, we did like an improv game where we were like washing your face and like doing all that. And I ha and I, and they were like, when we get to you sing a song and I sang, there are worst things I could do from,
Speaker 5: (57:53)
Oh, I love this. I love this so much. I love everything about that. It's a hard song to sing. Oh my God. It was really, really feel like a Rizzo. Did you identify with the, with the Rizzo character?
Speaker 6: (58:10)
I totally did. I was so cool. And this was in high school? Well, like it was so cool and like such a bad girl misunderstood. I'd like, that has nothing to do with the time it did. And so that's what I say. And somehow I got it.
Speaker 5: (58:34)
So you said to remind you back to David.
Speaker 6: (58:37)
Yeah. So David was a really, I know David is a divisive character. He was a really important part of my time at theater school. He was my first year teacher. He was, um, I found his outbursts, uh, funny where other people found them. Very scary. There were some things that he did in class that I can't believe he did in class. Um, I don't know if you're talking to like Paul Holmquist or anybody, but, um, but we'd like to, so there is, he tells the story better than I do, but, um, there's this guy in our class who was David, was trying to tell him who he was through some improv game and he wasn't picking it up and he picks up an actual chair. I think he's like, I've got a chair on a way insane. Like it was, he was, and then he would walk around with a stick in his hand and like hit the wall. And I wouldn't find that I was thought it was funny. Like, but of course that's terrifying. You can't do that to people. I was thinking about him yesterday. And I was like, at the time I was like, thinking that he must've been in his like 60, but definitely like in his forties. Right.
Speaker 6: (59:56)
Um, I was just like, uh, he's still funny. But he was, you know, he was very supportive of me and he was very, I used to work for him. I worked in his office. I took, um, I took Zach Holmes job actually that helm had that job before me. And I took it and we were very, um, we were, you know, we got along really well, but I know he was a big problem for a lot of people at theater school. And I think I just moved my way into escaping that, you know,
Speaker 7: (01:00:26)
The same, I have the same numbers, same exact thing where like I know he was, I know he was, he did rotten things, but I was such, for some reason, like, I feel the same. Like I'm a people pleaser and I'm, I did whatever he said, you know, to get on his good side. And then he sort of fell in love with me. And then that was it. But like, he, people did horrible things to students and just because they were nice to me, doesn't make it. Okay. Right. It's like, it's like,
Speaker 3: (01:00:57)
So, so Erica, one of the, I've never, we've never asked this question of anybody before, but one of the things that boss and I talk about all the time is how we just didn't know ourselves at all. And in fact, that pattern continued long after we graduated. Um, I think maybe dealing with something like an eating disorder does force a person to get to know themselves better because it's literally a matter of life and death. But did you feel, what was your experience of that while you were at the theater school? Did you felt feel you knew who you were
Speaker 6: (01:01:30)
Not even a little bit, not even a little bit. Um, I was very fixated on trying to be what other people wanted me to be. Um, to a, I think the first time when I stood up for myself at theater school was, and can we use people's names? Always David I'll call his name was, um, when casting came around fourth year, um, Susan Lee had decided that I was like her star and really wanted to cast me as tiger Lily, the hip hop, dancing, titer, Lily and Peter pan. And I couldn't dance. Like I couldn't dance. And she was like, listen, I really want to cast you with Tyra Lily. I auditioned for Wendy and she wouldn't even consider Wendy. And she was like, listen, I really want to catch you with Lily. But, um, you're going to have to take extra dance classes. Okay. But we'll, you could talk somebody who already can dance. Like, why aren't you making me do it? And we know why she wanted me to, I said, a day still can't dance. And, um, I remember, you know, they have that big meeting where they're like, decide who's going to be in what play
Speaker 5: (01:02:43)
Or whatever.
Speaker 6: (01:02:46)
And I remember I was like, this is not me. I can't do this. This is not a character I can even pretend to be. And I called David and I was like, Hey Susan, when he wants to cast me as pirate Lily, and I don't want to do it, I'm not, I can't do it. And it causes this whole kerfuffle, the casting meeting me and was like, what's going on? David said, you don't want to be tired. Really? And I was like, I don't. And that was the first time I actually ever stood up for myself probably as an adult. Um, so it was at theater school, but I, you know, just the fact that I got, I got bullied into it that far along was just like, just me not knowing who I was and me not having feet on the ground. And, um, me not sort of recognizing what was good for me
Speaker 5: (01:03:35)
And her being in her and Susan Lee being racist. I mean, that's awesome. I will say it out loud. I mean,
Speaker 6: (01:03:48)
Yes.
Speaker 5: (01:03:51)
I put my hand to my forehead, my phone, You know, I, I, I guess I didn't have her as a teacher. It's only been in this podcast. I feel like everybody's been making this person up. I can't picture who Susan Lee is. Blonde that guy. No, no, but Theresa's married to Nick, Nick, Nick, and I had Nick as my teacher. So I think, I didn't know either of those people in that car. Go ahead. No, I, we, our class, um, for whatever reason, we had a different teacher. We had Ruth route birth. So we didn't have,
Speaker 6: (01:04:52)
Oh you, because Susan was a tree nut. She is somebody who really hyped up like favorites and, um, competition and made things really. If she didn't like you, you knew she didn't like you. Right.
Speaker 5: (01:05:08)
And I believe that she called Stephanie White was in my class. So Gina, it's interesting that you didn't have her, but anyway, she, she wanted
Speaker 7: (01:05:18)
To say African-American ones and she couldn't say it. She couldn't figure out, she got tripped up on her words. And I, instead of African-American then she went to Negro and then she said, I swear. She said, and I looked at her and said that. She said, I'm sorry. And she look, I'm not saying all I'm saying is that's what happened? That's what I'm saying. Oh, you can say it. That's what happened. And that's what we're contending with. So when I, when I hear you say it was me, me, me, me, I, I do think being bullied takes, there has to be a bully. Do you know what I mean? Like for you to feel bullied. So I'm just, I want to make it clear that you were a child, almost basically a child, right? Cause you were what? 19, 19 or 20. So yeah. Anyway, I just, we gotta, you gotta make sure we're doing that. So this is making me think of something. Uh, um, Jen Kober told us that she was told that her year was the first year they let in fat girls. And that there was that Betsy had to basically campaign for this, um, that they had just, I mean, whether it was spoken or unspoken, they had never admitted a woman who would be considered fat. And now I'm thinking that in a F were there any other women of color in your class, Erica?
Speaker 6: (01:06:55)
Yes. There was one she got caught. Her name was Yvette Robinson. Um, I think she was the only other one. And I remember at theater school, everybody would always call me like the name of the black girl who was in the, like in classes ahead of me. And they would be like namby. And I'm like, no, my name is Erica, things like that. Um, there were two of us and there were, there was two, there were men. I think I was the only one that didn't get caught after second year. Um, there was a man, I forgot his name. I forgot his name. Um, and then the year behind me, there were no honey and Larry and Kevin. And that might be it.
Speaker 7: (01:07:44)
Yeah. What I'm, what I was getting at is I feel like it became a thing like, well, we can only have one per you know, per year or per right. Because that's, that was my recollection. Yeah.
Speaker 6: (01:07:56)
That's how it ended up. I was only, I was the only, by the time I graduated, I was the only black woman, um, in the casting. Well, no, I came in after, but so, and I think honey was the only black woman in her year. And um,
Speaker 7: (01:08:12)
I Asia Larry's, she wasn't
Speaker 6: (01:08:16)
Humming a year, but she got caught.
Speaker 7: (01:08:18)
Oh God, it's just so gross. I just can't even, it's just so it, yeah, I would, but I remember, I want to bring up one thing because you were, and I want to get your experience. So most people we've talked to about the showcase had a buffer of experience. Now you, if I recall were like a superstar going to every meeting with every, this is what I made up. So I I'm willing to be totally wrong about this, but in my head, you like slate it, like you were going to universal and Warner brothers, is that, did I make that up or is that accurate?
Speaker 6: (01:08:51)
That's no, that's accurate. I had three meetings at an agency meeting and two studio meetings, which, you know, it's great if I was going to move to LA like the next week, but I wasn't. And the thing that, that brought up was that peop you know, I had a really good friend who you weren't so great friends after that. Um, because she didn't, she got like one meeting or didn't get any meetings. And she was very like the competition and the, our conflict, our competitiveness turned on each other, or mine didn't, I felt really bad that she didn't get any meat or her parents were really upset with me. Cause they were like, you got all this great stuff in Iowa and you're sad because your friend didn't get anything. And I was like, I don't know, that's what theater teaches us that. Um, so, but yeah, I, I, my showcase experience was really positive.
Speaker 6: (01:09:40)
Um, I didn't move to LA, so it was kind of for not, um, I wish that we had also, I know that they're now they now go to New York also. I wish we'd gone to New York. Cause I feel like that would have actually been really beneficial for our class in general. Um, because we are at a theater school and, um, but yeah. Wow. And then I, and then I came back and uh, got it. I had a couple of agents and I know that there's been a lot of conversation about the audition teacher who, um, I had, again, I had great experience with, I was actually friends with her she's since passed. So I won't say her name, but, um, I know that she was, I know that she also had favorites and would call people in based on whether or not she likes them to be CA and I got past my first two things because of her. Um, but I know that there are people who she just didn't call in because she wasn't friends with them. She didn't like them. And that is, that's not. Okay.
Speaker 7: (01:10:49)
So, Erica, um, it's, you just mentioned your parents and it sounds like they were supportive of you. Do you have any other artists in your family? Did you come from theater people?
Speaker 6: (01:11:02)
Um, not really. My dad is a pediatrician. He's a doctor. My mom was a teacher. She, uh, desktop theater, but you know, we would do church plays. Um, nobody else is, uh, my cousin is an opera singer in Germany. Um, but artsy family, um, more science-based, although we are all in entertainment or art in the public eye. And my sister is, uh, a reporter for a network news station in DC and my brother until COVID was a DJ. Um, well he, he, he was a DJ for like, uh, some pretty big places in new Orleans and in South beach in Miami, um, and DJ for some big like athletes and things like that, but doesn't want to do it and he's getting older. Doesn't want to do it anymore and guess what he wants to do now, he wants to be an actor. He called me all the time asking me like, Hey, do you know what's? What is, do you know who you are? The Meisner technique.
Speaker 6: (01:12:12)
Yes I have. And be like, how do you do this? How do you do this? Very funny. And it's, it's funny. Cause I'm like I stopped asking because the industry is not great. But like I do remember this period that he's in and being in theater school and learning all these new things and feeling really confident about it being really interested in, then it changes how you watch television in terms of how you watch movies. And I know where he is. I know what place he's in, but at the same time I want to be like, don't do it.
Speaker 3: (01:12:45)
It's tough. It's a, it's a tough, yeah, it's I've everybody always says like, if you can do something else, you know, you, you really should. And so that's so great that the thing that you found to do is fulfilling. I, it sounds like it's not really much in the way of performing, but that it's fulfilling in terms of storytelling.
Speaker 6: (01:13:05)
It's totally fulfilling in terms of storytelling. Um, I, I love it. I feel like I'm good at it. Um, and I, and I'm freelance. So I get to work on three or four things every year, you know, nothing is ever the same, so are two or three things every other year. So nothing's ever the same and, and I enjoy it and the people I've met have been really great. Um, and yeah, honestly I think that part of what makes me good at my job is learning how to work with other people, learning the, the, the, um, idea of ensemble and collaboration. I find that people who in this industry who don't work well with others or who do work well with others have acting backgrounds because they're used to collaborating and building a whole lot of parts and things like that. Whereas other people sort of get sort of like tunnel vision and don't know how to collaborate and work with an ensemble.
Speaker 3: (01:14:02)
I have a question besides, um, obviously we talked a little bit about one fleet spare. Um, what were your other roles at the theater school that you, that you loved? Like
Speaker 7: (01:14:12)
What, what brought you joy there?
Speaker 6: (01:14:15)
My favorite, so I did it so second year you have to do a scene, right? Like, uh, um, my, I did a scene from born yesterday with Palm Holmquist Paul. Holmquist where I played the duty, um, Davis. Yeah. Or holidays Sunday, so much fun. And I wore flip and Paul was like this big guy and I was, and Don OCO directed it. I loved Don so much. And, um, um, yeah, it was really, that was a great, like a scene was great. The other really fun thing we did was this director, this guest director did a workshop fourth year. The role I ended up with when I backed out of tire really. Um, and I forget what the name of the player was, but it was Andrew [inaudible] and me, and I forget who everybody else was, but it was just like an exercise in like all the things we did first year.
Speaker 6: (01:15:19)
Right. So we're like space work on a, on a, on a subway and like, like little scenes that we were doing and making sounds. And it was just so much fun. Like I've, I haven't had that much fun performing to that point. It was a, it was like a game every night. Um, and then I think those were the most fun things. And then, you know, obviously once we spare with a lot of fun to do with small casts and really good people, but, um, yeah, those are, those are my favorites. Those are my highlights.
Speaker 7: (01:15:55)
The time of COVID. Are you able to work it, do D does the documentary world go forward?
Speaker 6: (01:16:02)
It does. Um, I have, I didn't have it. I didn't have a job from April to June, which was kind of scary, but, um, uh, we're, I'm working from home. Um, we do interviews. We can do them remotely, or we do them in a, you know, we're set up in such a way where we have all of these zones and people can be here and everybody has to get tested and you have masks and, um, it's very secure and safe, um, for documentary anyway, larger productions have a whole other behemoths to work with, but, um, documentary production is, is pretty easy because once you shoot, you're just in post and you're just, you know, working from home the whole time. So it's, it's a lot, it's, it's easy to do. As long as there are projects being made, which there are,
Speaker 7: (01:16:46)
Do you have like, uh, right now a passion project that you want to get made that you haven't made? Do you have a dream of a documentary that you're doing?
Speaker 6: (01:16:56)
I listened to this podcast called criminal, and I shouldn't be telling this because maybe somebody else will want to, um, go out and steal my idea, but they did a story on this woman called Sandy who used to run numbers. Um, yeah, so he was the first, like, she was the first black woman who had her own bank and like be their number running. And like, I want to do a documentary about her. I think she sounds incredible. It was in her book, her book and her daughter wrote it, but I want to start pitching this, um, at places to try to get it done either. That would be really cool. Um,
Speaker 5: (01:17:32)
So Erica, we have a character based on her and our pilot. We'll send it to, you know, yeah. She, she's a main character in our pilot, which is which people are reading. So it's yeah, yeah. She's, I will send it to you. Amazing. She's this she's the grandmother age, but, and she was reading her numbers business in new Orleans and some terrible things happened and she had to leave town and, and she's, uh, she's responsible for her grandson. And so they moved to Sacramento and she is re upping her business there and having to figure out like how it works differently there than what she's used to anyway. It's yeah. That's so funny that you bring that up. She's going to say Fannie. I know she's going to say this amazing. That's so cool. So you're going to, okay. So you're going to get that made. That's amazing. I know you will.
Speaker 6: (01:18:38)
I'm working on it. Um, that's probably the only thing I, I like to do things that are like fun, not fun, but like docu tainment, um, like, um, you know, teach an important lesson, but are also not just like eating spinach all day, right. Like, um, it's just like mobile spinach is good, but you know, it's fun. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (01:19:00)
Um, I was just going to ask you, I, I love your Instagram and, uh, you use these great hashtags and I was just hoping if you could tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker 6: (01:19:14)
Sure. So I am a big, um, probably two and a half to three years ago. I started hiking seriously. Um, so I do, and there's no better place to hike some Southern California, uh, or I mean, Colorado is probably better, but, um, I love hiking here. Um, so I do like longer hikes anywhere from probably not less than five, and haven't done more than 15
Speaker 5: (01:19:39)
Smiles you're talking,
Speaker 6: (01:19:43)
And there's not a lot of representation of larger bodies or, um, block people on the trail. So the hotspot is I use are black girls trucking, which is a group that I used to, um, hike with. Hasn't been hiking recently because of COVID, um, black girls, hiked fat girls, hiking, unlikely hikers, just things that really, um, diversity in race and body and all the other things outdoors. Um, you don't see a lot of size 14 black women hiking on the trail. You know, you just don't see that very often. And, um, I, I think it's important that we do see that and larger bodies and, and other and other ethnicities I'm off. I, um, was, you know, outdoors is a big deal and, and, um, unlikely hikers is for, is, um, inclusive of communities. So it's just important to me, that part of the reason why I started wanting to produce also is I wanted to see more of myself and more diversity and more of other types of people. Um, and so I want to see those things outdoors as well. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 5: (01:20:59)
I love that. And, and, and, and it's a great Testament to the fact that when we talk about how representation matters, we're not just saying in film and TV, we're saying in all aspects of enjoying one's life, and it's amazing, it never ceases to amaze me how you could completely out of your own awareness, be influenced and think, well, I might like to hike, but that's not for me only because you would never see that, you know, on somebody's Instagram or just in life. And that, that all it takes is somebody like, I was just having this conversation with my husband the other day, because when I watched the inauguration, I literally cried my eyes out for like seven hours. It was so intense. And when my husband got home, he was like, Whoa, what's going on? And I said, I did not plan to watch this.
Speaker 5: (01:21:52)
I sat, that's the making me emotional, just thinking about it, because if you're a, a U T, he, he is a white man, takes it for granted that he just sees versions of himself in all aspects of life. And I said, you know, it's not that there's no women in government and high positions of government, but the fact that it took us this long to get a woman in the second highest position in the land is sad, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm happy. We're finally getting there. And the moment when, um, was the Sonia Sotomayer Elena Kagan, and it was Elena Kagan, was it?
Speaker 5: (01:22:35)
It was her. Okay. So she's holding the Bible and calm less. I read just, it was so intense. And I thought, yeah, because growing up, you know, you, you hear about things that are happening in Congress and the Senate. And it's like, yeah, it's just a bunch of white guys. Right. And you don't, you know, not that I ever wanted to be in politics, but just the idea that it would, I wouldn't have ever asked myself if I wanted to be in politics, but I've never seen, really brings it also back to the theater school of like, look, we needed to say two, two,
Speaker 7: (01:23:06)
It could have been, it just could have been so great to say, Hey, Erica, you're a bad-ass actor, but also, you know, please consider directing because you have an eye for XYZ. It just brings it back to like representation in conservatories as well, like representation in general. Right. It's like, right. You could teach, you could, I'm like, wow,
Speaker 6: (01:23:29)
How many directors of color did we have at theater school? How many outside? Like, so somebody asked me like, when was the first time you had a black teacher? And it was college and it was Phyllis. And she was literally the only one, literally like, you know, you don't think, Oh, I can be. I mean, you do think, but you don't see yourself as a director. You don't see yourself as being able to educate people. You don't see, it's not reflected back at you. And it's so important, so important. And I hope they have more teachers of color.
Speaker 7: (01:24:02)
They do. They do. And I, I teach there occasionally and I, yeah. At fourth year BFA is I started teaching there and I'm going to teach there again. And it's, it's changed a lot. But when we went to school, there were some real problem areas, a real problem. We went to a school at a very specific time when everything was pretty rough in terms of,
Speaker 6: (01:24:30)
I remember sobbing in Phyllis's office. So it was also very important to me at theater school, because I wanted to be thin and not have big boobs and not look the way I looked. And, and she's the first aside from my mother, she was the first person I had told that I didn't want to look the way that I looked. And she was like, don't, you know, that women are out there injecting their lips and making their boobs bigger and making their butts bigger to look like you, like, don't, you know, that how is like, and I, she probably said something else that was more important than that. But I was like, Oh, so there were like moments that really sunk in and help. But I shouldn't, I shouldn't, um, overlook the fact that being a black student at theater school at the time was, was really hard, was hard because there weren't a lot of us. Um, and then they, they wanted us all to be in the same show together and play the same kind of part pop, hip hop tiger lilies.
Speaker 5: (01:25:32)
Right, right, right. Because everybody sees you as black, before they see you as an actor. So, right. So, so it's, and, and, and to think back to that time, and I'm sure people like the director of that show, you know, were really just patting themselves on the back like that they wanted to do whatever that production of Peter pan has come up in many times.
Speaker 7: (01:26:03)
Yes. Oh
Speaker 5: (01:26:04)
Yes.
Speaker 6: (01:26:05)
It doesn't surprise me because it was offensive. Yeah. Especially it was offensive back then, but looking at it through the days of, you know, 20, 21, um, like all the, whatever I can't.
Speaker 5: (01:26:21)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, we almost have to end, but I just, if there was any other anecdotes you wanted to, uh, get out there, I wanted to give you an opportunity to do that.
Speaker 6: (01:26:31)
If I did not bring this up, um, I remember, you know, how you have to do crew projects on your first year. And so I remember, I don't know why they would make a first year student do this, but as everyone probably knew, I had an enormous crush on Leonard Roberts. And,
Speaker 5: (01:26:52)
But you had a crush to it. Didn't you boss? I did. Everybody did. I was just scared. I didn't know.
Speaker 6: (01:27:00)
I was on makeup crew for children, women, which was real important, like pivotal. I learned all my music from Karen mold and whoever else was on the plane. I need to Franco that whole time. Um, I had to paint mussels on Leonard Roberts bear chats with a wet sponge every day before the show.
Speaker 5: (01:27:23)
She Oh,
Speaker 6: (01:27:25)
Was mortified. And I'm sure he was too, because I'm sure he knew I had a crush on him. I was mortified. It was the most embarrassing thing. And I'm like, why would you make, first of all, you can't even talk to him, drawing on muscles from the audience. I just have to do this for my own, whatever. And then, um, yeah, it was horrifying.
Speaker 5: (01:27:49)
Oh my God. That's, uh, we're going to have to have Leonard on and ask him what he remembers about that. About that came up a lot.
Speaker 6: (01:28:06)
He's like this weird, he'll be like this weird first year who like, couldn't stop staring at him. He came into my life, paint me with makeup. What was she doing?
Speaker 5: (01:28:22)
Find out what if you find out all these years later, he's like, I really liked this girl, but freaked out every time she was in front of me, she wasn't looking me in the face. Oh, that'd be fun. Thank you so much, Erica. This has been fantastic. And everybody should check you out on Instagram. What's your Instagram handle?
Speaker 6: (01:28:45)
It's Nancy. Pat. So it's Y a N C Y C a N T Z.
Speaker 5: (01:28:53)
Um,
Speaker 6: (01:28:55)
Yeah. So check me out on Instagram.
Speaker 8: (01:29:07)
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina [inaudible]. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
Speaker 1: (01:29:36)
Thank you.
Intro: The challenge of finishing things, Gina is finally facing herself, 20/20, Con Doctor Paolo Macchiarini WHOM JEN CALLS Pablo Macaroni, The Con Queen, sociopaths.
Let Me Run This By You: How you you cultivate and sustain your self confidence? Acceptance is the answer in so many cases. Seeing people in power as human and vulnerable when they accidentally drink sake and are also recovering alcoholics.
Interview: We talk to Jen Dede about being a shy kid, being an empath, and being on the Forensics team. Also, getting type cast, being a character actor, Warner Laughlin Studios, stepping into your own power.
CONTENT WARNING: Trauma, Suicide.
Intro: Do you know who your allies are? Boz is torqued. How big is the pie anyway?
Let Me Run This By You: Vulnerability on Clubhouse
Interview: We talk to Rob Hess about making ice cream in Michigan, suffering a huge trauma in high school, getting cut in his second year, feeling safe with Phyllis Griffin, when Carey Peters saved Rob's life, living alone in a rural Michigan cabin, writing screenplays, making films, finding human connectivity through ice cream, finding healing through the podcast, being told he was the next John Malkovich, Don Ilko, Wallace Shawn, thought experiments.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
sworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? So I just
Speaker 2: (00:34)
Obsessed with this idea of like, who you think are going to be allies aren't allies and who you've made our allies, our allies. I am. So it is my own making in my head that certain people should be loyal and other people shouldn't be loyal. Right. So, but that's not how the world works. I'm realizing because I think someone should be my ally. Does it mean they give two about me or, or just because I think someone is snarky and maybe they hate me. Doesn't mean they're not going to be an ally. So, okay. So at this point in the conversation, boss tells a story that we really can't air on the podcast, unfortunately, but we had a conversation afterward that we thought was worthwhile to share. So you're just going to have to know that things are going to be a bit out of context. And I'm sorry for that, but I hope you enjoy the conversation that follows in any case.
Speaker 2: (01:36)
Okay. Okay. So what, one of the pervasive myths and I also suffer from the delusion of this myth. It's so it must just be hardwired. Okay. Is the pie is very small. There's very few pieces. Keep everybody out of your pie. Okay. Which yeah, if you just think about it, like completely in a base way. Yeah. There's only so many berries. There's only so much elk. I get it, but we're not foraging for berries and we're not hunting elk. We're talking about a multi-billion dollar business that has tons and tons and tons of opportunities in which is always looking for the next best thing. And a rising tide lifts all boats. And if you extend yourself to people who are lower than you on the food chain, it only helps you. It never hurts you. I agree. A hundred percent. And then on the base level, especially as former therapists, the is so transparent and we will keep all of this in the is so transparent that it's like, I, you are not, I want to always say to people and except it sounds like I'm being a huge narcissist, but it's like, I want to say to people, you are talking to someone who studied human brain and emotions for years and worked with some of the biggest sort of sociopath and gang members like weird.
Speaker 3: (03:00)
I know what's happening here. Let's cut the. Just say to me, I don't feel ready to share my resources. Now look, will that hurt my feelings? Absolutely. But will it make me insane? No. Right, right. Yeah. Just don't share resources. Just say, I'm not going to share my research. Don't say let's zoom.
Speaker 2: (03:21)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, okay. So then the next thing that occurs to me is like this whole thing about California versus, okay. So we left California for a variety of reasons, but one of the reasons that it's really sticks with me is we were so tired of this fakery around kumbaya, this fake kumbaya stuff. It was always like the, it was always the people who told you that they were pacifists that were like gonna definitely Shiv you.
Speaker 2: (03:57)
And it was always the people who preach, you know, inclusivity and whatever who were so judgmental. And it was just so disavowed where in other places, and it's not like, I believe in the whole thing of people tell you, like it is in New York and people don't tell you, it's not really binary like that. It's just that you do encounter people who are more willing to say, like giving the example of Bella. It can telling Eric later, I just didn't want you in my play. Like I could tell you something else I could tell you. Oh, it was really tough to make the decision. I could tell you, you know, you were really great, but somebody else, but that's the truth of it is, and you came to me for the truth. So I'm going to tell you the truth. I did not want you in my play. And I think it would be hard to say I'm not ready to share my resources, but it wouldn't be hard to say. I wish I had time to talk to you, but I don't.
Speaker 3: (04:51)
Oh,
Speaker 2: (04:53)
I, and I guess it's not entirely true that the pie is infinite. I guess that's not a good way to say it, but, uh, what is true is that if you, okay, so maybe there's only five spots for writers that are in her demographic, whatever that is. And so maybe she doesn't, she doesn't want you to get her spot. Okay. Right. But there's more than five spots for something else about you. There's, you know what I'm saying? Like what if she even said she, yeah. What if she had even said to you, well, I don't know if you're willing to do this, but there's a lot of, you know, writing assistant positions open right now in, uh, you know, San Diego someplace that you don't want to, you know, but like, Hey, if I heard about this one opportunity, it just would take so little. Right. It would just take so little.
Speaker 3: (05:49)
And I think the thing that, that hurt that is frustrating the most is it's transparent. But I think that I don't, I think that that comes from having a very unique set of circumstances, like being an emotionally neglected child and then being, um, someone who's co-dependent and then being a therapist, I'm like, dude, this is like, this is like a no brainer what's going on here. Although you did open it up to, like, there was a little bit, that's the thing too, is there's a TV side dash or maybe not. So side, dash of passive aggressiveness that I, I, I noticed, I only noticed that part later, what I noticed in the, in the, the, the, the, during the interaction with people like this is that something feels off and like, and it feels like a waste of time. It debts, it immediately feels like a waste of time. Like, like the manager that we met with where it was like immediately, you're like, something is not legit. Something's off here. And I can't pretend that it's not off because I've, I could, but that, that leads to depression and anxiety. And I can't live like that anymore. So, but yeah, sort of stuck on the phone, like, okay, here we go.
Speaker 2: (07:08)
Yeah. And it goes back to hate hazing. So we can assume that this person has really felt either really had to, or at least felt like she had to claw her way from the very bottom. And sh and people did this kind of stuff to her, so she wants to do it to you. Okay. And then there's the thing of what I call the I'm closing my eyes. So you can't see me way approach to life, which I always was saying, like, people who put totally crazy stuff on the internet and, and then they're like running for office or that, and they have, and they think that if they just deleted the tweet or that it's gone, it's just a very, um, in a way it's kind of, I was going to say, sweet, that's not the right word, but there's something kind of awe about it. That when somebody thinks that they're concealing the fact that they're,
Speaker 3: (08:05)
But we don't, and this goes to a bigger thing of like the human race is we don't understand the imprint that we are leaving with every action we take myself included. There are, we are leaving imprints into the universe. I technically feel like this. And they matter. And they, and they add up or they don't, but like they they're there. And so it's like, we leave these chem trails everywhere we go emotionally. And it's like, yeah, people see it. People feel it. It's interesting. Cause it's actors, you think they'd be better at it. Actors are the worst. Like you're like, so that was an interesting, I was just thinking about that. Cause I was like, Oh, okay. And that is how a lot of networking stuff goes and, and, uh, goes back to just because someone is of your, your sexual preference, your, your, um, identity, your background does not make them an ally. I it's so interesting. Woman, whatever, whatever, whatever you, whatever I think is going on with people that is going to bind them to me in a positive way, I'm making that up.
Speaker 2: (09:20)
I'm making that up. It's not real. Oh, well, so let's unpack it a little bit. So you, is it, is it just simply that it's a wish, or do you have other reasons to think that a person who fits tick certain boxes would be your ally
Speaker 3: (09:40)
Variants of the narrative that come join us? If you're one of us and then trying to join, and then being told you're not enough of this. So especially being half Latina, half, not joining organizations that are, and look, I'm saying, I pass as a white person, I have privilege. I get, I am work. That is something that is on my radar and I'm, but the truth is that I am half of this thing and I'm half of this other thing. So I have gone to organizations that are like, we want to, it's so tricky. We want to embrace all people of the, you know, the, the spectrum of, of, uh, what is it, Latini that or whatever we, we, and that, and I show up and they're like, what the are you doing here? Basically? You know, like you, you look white and you don't, you're not fluent in Spanish. And then
Speaker 2: (10:36)
A part of me gets it. But a part of me is like, wait, potentially to say, everyone's welcome
Speaker 3: (10:40)
Of the, what is it? The diaspora that, is it everyone welcome? No, no, everyone is not welcome. And look, I'm not saying it has caused me, you know, heartbreak. Like I'll never recover, but it's, it's troubling. Yeah. But that is my experience. And then I think mixed with a wish you're right. Mixed with a wish to belong. Right. So together is like, my mind is blown when that just totally misses, you know, I'm like, Oh, wow.
Speaker 2: (11:10)
Oh also what let's let's imagine. And maybe this happened in the conversation and you just didn't share it with me, but let's imagine that this person had said to you, tell me what you've done so far. You know, tell me what you've done so far. Like this is a terrible comparative example, but it jumped into my head when my kids come to me and say, do you know where my blah-blah-blah is? I say, where have you looked so far? Cause I used to say, Oh, I dunno. And then I had, you know, do the whole thing with them. And then it turns out it was just some obvious place. And now I say, well, what, what have you done? And I can, and I can extrapolate that to more complex situations with them. Like when they're having a fight, what have you done to try to resolve this conflict before you're bringing me into it?
Speaker 2: (11:54)
So if, if what she felt, let's, let's say that what she felt was why are you coming for what I have? You've been at this for a lot less time than me, blah, blah, blah. She could've said, tell me what you have done to help yourself so far, because if you had said, well, you're my first phone call, then she could have said, all right, well, you have a lot of work to, do you have a lot of basic work to do before you can call somebody like me versus, well, I'm getting my masters. I've been doing this, I've mentored this many contests. I was a semi-finalist and two of them. I mean, if she had bothered to ask you that she would have known that you weren't, she was not your first phone call. She was your 1000 phones.
Speaker 3: (12:36)
Right. And I, I think that, yes, I think you're, and that's really good. Good
Speaker 2: (12:41)
To hear for when people come to me,
Speaker 3: (12:43)
Cause people come to me for like acting stuff or like, can I meet with your agent? And I'm like, what's going on in your life right now? Where are you at? And I think that that is super helpful. And it also, it also would have helped me feel that we are in a conversation together that matters. And also put an ed, put me on the spot in a good way to, to say, look, this is what I've done. And I, and I'm working my off and I just, I need a little boost. Can you boost, if not, if not, but like you're right. I think there's, I think there's a taking the time to ask the other person, what have you done and how can I be of service to get to the, or just don't take the meeting.
Speaker 2: (13:33)
Yes. And the other thing that's at play here is having to do, because I'm all about codependency these days. And for a last little while I have been it's all it's it's about this fear that you cannot establish a boundary because she might have also been thinking this person is just asking me for a job. I have the sense that a lot of people, that's their first reaction. You're gonna ask me to do a favor for you. When I barely have my footing, my footing, I barely have enough social capital or professional capital to get my own foot in the door, much less yours. Okay. So, but if that's the case that she could still have the conversation, if, if, if she wants, she could say, no, I am, I don't have the bandwidth for that. And she could say, yeah, let's talk. And then say, I see what you're really asking me for is an entree to my agency.
Speaker 2: (14:29)
Um, and yes, I do have a great agent, but I feel that it would be very bad for my reputation to offer that person to you because I don't really know you very well. That would be really good. That would be very honest. And then you'd be like, Oh yeah, I could see how you would feel that way. I haven't read any of my work. We only know each other a little bit. Like you have any reason to think you have every reason to think it would hurt you to help me instead of that, it would help you to help me. Right.
Speaker 3: (14:57)
Right. That makes sense too. Yeah. I think it's the art so, well, my husband miles is doing all this reading on the art of negotiation and the hostage negotiations just, we're just interested in like how that goes and how to approach hard conversations. I mean, hostage conversations are hard copies apparently, but like even salary negotiations and stuff like that, it's tricky stuff. And it, it, I think in some ways being empathic or, and then borderline and into codependency is not helpful in these, in these, um, interactions with people and just day-to-day negotiation. Sometimes it is helpful, but sometimes it's bad. And so that's why a lot of times, you know, people say, go into the negotiation with the confidence of a mediocre white dude and khakis, because it's like, they don't have that empathy for, they haven't had to develop that, you know, because they don't have to, they could just walk in and be, and people, they must know what they're doing.
Speaker 3: (16:02)
So it's just, it's such an interesting, it's an interesting period of like figuring out like, okay, what, and, and some things are just going to be a waste of time or seem like a waste of time and maybe something. And the other thing that I'm fully aware of is that maybe down the line, this person is going to help me in a way that I would never expect. That's the other part of this is that down the line, if I really believe nothing is for not then down the line, something could happen. But in the moment, I'll tell you, it just felt like a sh a small, like, what the.
Speaker 2: (16:38)
Right. Well, and then you're getting into like, what all of your, um, unconscious interpretations are, which is that because her, you know, because she behaved X, Y, and Z way, that means that she thinks you're crap or that she will never help you. And you, you, you don't know really the answer to all that, but I will say that when it comes to this kind of thing, everybody, and we talked about this, about the theater school, part of what gets established and perpetuated as this culture of fear. And like, because it's true, we are trying to enter into a business that millions of people want to enter into. And there are not millions of jobs. That's true. That's, that's true. It's not like if I said to you, I want to get into real estate. And it's like, well, literally anybody can study for their series seven exam and get their real estate license, like it's wide open market for you.
Speaker 2: (17:30)
Um, so I understand why this is a little bit more cagey, but another thing that somebody could always do that would be no skin off their teeth and would be honest and truthful without offering anybody help is to say, I'll tell you exactly what I did. I took this class. And then I talked to this person about how to get resume together. And then I submitted my writing sample to these three writing teachers. And then I applied for 17 internships. And then I applied for 100, uh, screenwriting competitions. And then my first entry came after I was six years into to it. You know, like what, what's wrong with that? How, yeah, that's something you could literally just post on your, you could have, or you could have, I feel a lot of people come to you with this. You could have a website and you could say, here's my story. And then when somebody asks you, you can say, go to my website and read my story. Like, there's just so many ways of handling this problem that don't require you to make the other person feel badly about themselves or to be hostile in any kind of way passive or otherwise.
Speaker 3: (18:32)
Yeah. And, and, and I think it, and then the other deeper thing is that, you know, we are told, I think in play of this is for me anyway, is that as women, you know, you, you, you, Oh, there's so much. Like, you have to be nice without being rude. You have to be this. You have to be that there's not enough. Especially in Hollywood, you know, there there's there, the pie is even smaller for women. The pie is even smaller for women that don't look a certain way, the pies. So I think we tell ourselves the pie and it's two things are true that we are told messages that are, but they're, they're, they're true in some way, they're. And yet the mat, like we always talk about the mass delusion and the systemic believing of this garbage then perpetuates the garbage. Right. So if you're a trailblazer, if you're, it's a rough,
Speaker 4: (19:23)
It's a rough road. [inaudible] so there's always that. Yeah. How are you, what's going on? Anything, uh,
Speaker 2: (19:44)
I let's see here. Um, I kind of wanted to talk to you about vulnerability because vulnerability has become a little bit of a buzz word. Um, which to me just means that people are talking about it, which is a great thing. And I think, um, you know, Brenae Brown did a huge service in terms of like really taking the concept of shame and making it something that's widely accessible to everybody, to, to ponder for themselves about their own shame. Um, as you know, I've been really a clubhouse rat. I'm going to call myself, sticking around clubhouse all the time. And one, I participated in this room that I was really, really drawn to, but they were doing, um, it was basically like improv, but it was this sort of improv that had an implied. Maybe it was even explicit. If you look at the description of this, I didn't, I didn't happen to read it, but this thing about we're doing this improv, and I don't even want to go so far as to say that they thought it was going to be therapeutic, but there was this tone about how they were conducting the improv.
Speaker 2: (21:01)
That was really very warm and welcoming. And like, how did, I mean, to say, I could tell that the leaders of this room were taking great care about people's state of being, you know, it wasn't just like, let's just play improv and you're either in or you're out. It was like, there was some things sort of touchy feely about it.
Speaker 3: (21:22)
It was like mindful improv, like curated, mindful imprint.
Speaker 2: (21:26)
Yes. And at one point it turned to, um, everybody was inhabiting of a younger version of themselves. Everybody was encouraged to be, and they didn't say specifically, like under the age of 15, but everybody was sort of going in and then you had to introduce yourself and then say how old you were. Right. And then they were all doing this improv as basically like their inner child. Right. Well, I didn't leave the room, but I was so afraid of, of having anything to do with this. And it was actually at the very beginning of, you know, I've only been on it for a week, but this was on maybe like day two. So I also was not familiar with speaking in rooms and they kept pushing the button, loved, like inviting me to be a speaker. And I kept saying, not right now, not right now. Right. Not right now. I was terrified, terrified at the thought of doing this. And other people shared very, very intense, deep, personal things. And I could see our, I could sense how everybody was benefiting from it. And it was this shared intimacy. And I was, I just, all I could think to myself was no way in hell, would I ever be my real self as a child in front of anybody? Strangers, my husband, my best friend, like nobody. So I've just been puzzling for the last week about like, okay, well, so what's, so why what's, what's the big deal? Like I, and I don't, I'm no farther to understanding it now than I was when I started pondering it a week ago. It just, it feels like a third rail for some reason, if yes, exactly like that,
Speaker 3: (23:27)
Not die, like, cause I know we're not really afraid of death, but you would see to, it would be a death by humiliation or death by death by, by, um, shame, death, but like, uh, annihilation. Right?
Speaker 2: (23:44)
Yeah. I think it must have something to do with, um, how hard I work consciously and unconsciously to separate too, to be a different person than I feel like I really am on the inside, which is, you know, I feel like I'm the special worm. I feel like I'm this horrible person that nobody could ever love. But, but I, but intellectually, I don't agree with that. So I'm always trying to work against that. So I'm always trying to deny like my, my essential rotten core that I feel that I have, I'm like trying to protect my rotten core from everybody and from myself. And so something about being vulnerable enough to, and some people were playing themselves at 12 and some people were playing themselves when they're, pre-verbal like it ran the, ran the gamut and both were equally frightening to me being myself at 12, being myself at three, they were also because when the, when the people who were doing the sort of the really young version of themselves, they were all talking about some, getting emotional. For me, they're all talking about something they like to play or like their favorite tool. And I,
Speaker 3: (24:59)
You didn't have it. You can't remember you can't. Right, right.
Speaker 2: (25:05)
No, I have no idea what that would even be. Yeah. I think that's probably what it was scary about. It was like, I, a child, I was not a child that was never not in trouble.
Speaker 3: (25:14)
Right. So, so this, this is making perfect sense because beans, you were probably, when those desires started sprouting out, they were bashed back in you weren't. So how many times do you get bashed before you're like, this, I'm never coming out again. A whack, you know, in real life, a kid doesn't do that kid. Doesn't keep poking their head out because it's the interest it's too scary. It's too. Um, it's like, it's like beyond scary it's it's Oh, it makes perfect sense. So like, it makes perfect sense to me why that would be so triggering in terms of, I mean, I, me too, like, I don't feel right. I feel like I would be scared and I might go along with it. Um, but I know the feeling of not, I think, I think I understand what you're talking about and I think it makes perfect sense. And also everyone is not brave at the same time. So like in the same ways, but I, yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know the was getting so deep on clubhouse. My gut.
Speaker 2: (26:30)
Yeah, man. I mean, it totally runs the gamut, but some of it is very deep [inaudible]
Speaker 4: (26:45)
We talked to Rob Hattie, who is a filmmaker, a writer. He creates all kinds of creative content and he's also an ice cream King. He owns an ice cream business and sells it. And I believe they deliver it now, especially during this pandemic era, um, Rob is so sweet and so open and I just totally enjoyed our conversation with him. So please welcome to the podcast. Rob heft,
Speaker 5: (27:18)
You look exactly the same. We just stepped back for, I love it. It's so nice to see both of your faces. I feel like a grandmother that you'd never call though. Behind you. Are you at your ice cream factory? I am. Yeah. This is the, um, well it looks like a factory now. This is what used to be the store. I'll kind of show you. I mean, it's like, it's a factory now, but that's kind of that whole thing. And that's our little soda fountain kind of action. So cute. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's, you know, we haven't had customers in here for, since March, right? So it's very like, uh, you know, a factory now, which is pretty funny. I didn't ever think I would be an ice cream factory, but here I am, people are buying it just in pints. Yeah, exactly. It's been actually, it's been one of the best things that's ever happened. I'm so distracted by loving seeing you guys right now.
Speaker 5: (28:27)
This is going to be a really podcast because I'm just gonna be like, Oh, look at you too. Really love your glasses glasses. Um, there's a place in like Ann Arbor is like the university of Michigan town, like near like one town over where, from where I live. Uh, there's a place called C there S in Chicago. Yeah. As well. Yeah. I love that place. Like all the coolest glasses and like my face is a weird glasses face, but they made me feel like I got very cool glasses. So thank you. I appreciate that. So, Rob, congratulations. You survived theater school.
Speaker 5: (29:12)
They say you live to tell the tale, but how long were you there? I was there for two years. I got cut after sophomore year. Okay. Was that like a devastation or what? Um, I mean, yeah, off and on kind of parts of it for a long time. I think, um, it's my theater school journey. Like I had other things going on outside of theater school while I was there. So I had pretty gnarly personal stuff that I was also dealing with. Well, not actually dealing with just kind of, I think my body was getting ready to deal with it. Um, so it was all kind of wrapped up in the same, like burrito of trauma, you know what I mean? Um, you know, just to start off with trauma burritos,
Speaker 6: (30:03)
I mean, I don't love it, but I love the analogy. Yeah,
Speaker 5: (30:07)
Yeah. I get it. I get it. Yeah. So it was, um, yeah, it was cut after sophomore year. The weird thing was, and I'm happy to talk about the trauma burrito. Like let's pull apart the lettuce and the beans and the rice of all that, for sure. But, um, the, um, yeah, w w when I was cut, I was living in Evanston with some friends for the summer, and I had done the, like, you know, stupid college kid thing of like, who needs to forward addresses for mail. Um, and so I never got my like letter that said either way, it sounds like checking in with people, like, did you get cut? And they're like, Oh yeah, so-and-so got cut. And so-and-so got cut. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I think it was like a couple of weeks before school started that I finally got a call, like I was calling the theater school and like, nobody wanted to talk to me about it.
Speaker 5: (30:55)
Cause they were like, Oh, we got to tell this kid, like, do you know, face over the phone or whatever. Um, at least that's how I interpret it. And then, um, yeah, I got a call from Don Elko, um, to, you know, to like tell me what the deal was. And, you know, I never found Don to be like the most, um, you know, sort of humane. He wasn't, it wasn't terribly concerned with like humaneness in dealing with me. I don't think he had some great warmth than some whatever, but, um, he was really nice about it. And, um, we had a very long conversation and he was just like, you know, we had a long talk about you in these reviews. He's like, I'm not really supposed to tell you this stuff, but, um, like we talked about you for a couple hours.
Speaker 5: (31:39)
I mean, who knows, like where are they running game on me? They could have been, who knows. I appreciated it at the time. And he was like, uh, ultimately we feel like you're great, you've got great whatever potential, but, um, your, we don't know how to reach you. Like, we don't know where what's going on with you. And so they were like, you're welcome to like, do play writing. Like we think play writing would be great for you. We think, you know, stage management theater studies will be awesome. And I was just like, no, that's not really what I signed up for. You know? Um, so yeah, so that was kind of where it was left.
Speaker 6: (32:16)
But did you, did, did it make sense for you? Did it resonate? The things that he was saying, could you see what they were talking about?
Speaker 5: (32:24)
Yeah. Cause I didn't know where I was and I think, you know, everything in my body was telling me, like, you got stuff going on, bro. Like things are happening. So my sort of theater school story is like, so my senior year of school, so I'm from Michigan. And I grew up in like some small town of Highland. Um, but I went to this like Catholic, you know, college prep school, which is actually where Carrie Peters went, who was also in our year two. Um, and so, uh, my senior year of high school, I was in a car accident. I was the driver and I was, um, we couldn't stop for a stop sign. And so we had to run the stop sign and we were broadsided by a full-sized van doing like 55 miles an hour. And the, my two best friends who were in the backseat, they were thrown from the car and they died in my arms that night.
Speaker 5: (33:18)
Um, and so I was post that in the way that, you know, my body reacted is I realized now I didn't have feelings for two full years or more. Um, I, and everybody was like, Whoa, how are you doing? Like, are you like, are you gonna like start a crazy drug habit? Are you just gonna fall apart? And I was like, I don't know. I'm like the lead in the school play, we were doing West side story. And like, that was like a great community for me. And, um, I just was like, no, if anything, I felt responsibility to live on for my friends who were dead. And for the other friend that had been injured in the car. And so I was like, no, that's not what I'm doing. And I didn't have any emotions anyways. And I didn't know. And I didn't know anybody who'd been through something like that.
Speaker 5: (34:12)
And I didn't know anybody who'd gone to see therapists. I didn't know any of that stuff. So for me, I was just like, I'm just going to keep doing it. And so, um, I, yeah, when I was thinking about college, like, I don't know. I think everybody was like, it's gravy where like I was kind of Harry Potter. I was the boy who lived, you know, so everybody was just like, cool. Yeah. Do whatever you want to do. And I got the, um, I got the brochure from the DePaul marketing department, which was like point those days. Like, yeah. I mean, I, the way I read the brochure was just like broad, don't go here. Like you can't handle it like that. What I read it as it was just like, if you want to be a serious actor. Sure. If you want no kid gloves, you know that you want to Paul.
Speaker 5: (34:59)
Yeah, man, no kid gloves. Let's do I want to be an actor right now? Like, um, and I was like, okay, well, cool. I got to audition for this thing. And like, definitely like my drama teachers and stuff like that at school were like, maybe not DePaul. Like we haven't heard great things. And there had been someone there. Yeah. We had, there had been somebody who went there who came back. It was like the dryness Derby straight. Cause they like talk to the whole cast or whatever of the show. And they were like, don't go to DePaul. Like they were just like, go somewhere else, go somewhere. That's going to be fun, get a college. And I was like, you mean, get beaten up like a real actor would write, like, that's what I should do. Um, yeah. So they tried to scare me straight and I was like, hell no.
Speaker 5: (35:47)
Like also I was like, I love a challenge. So I was like, yeah, I'm going to go for this. I'm going to, like, I did a monologue from, I don't even know the play at all, of course, but it was like, everybody was like, don't do this monologue because it's like an old man reflecting back on his life and you'll never be able to bring that range to it. So I was like radical. So I did this, um, monologue from, I'm not rapport and I'm going to go for it. And um, I've never been to a big city before, so I was just like, yeah, let's, let's do it. Let's go to Chicago and try this thing out. So that was kind of like in the background, my entire DePaul experience was, you know, just insane, you know, trauma, grief, you know? And I think my body was just in shock really the whole time, because first year I felt, you know, fine numb, you know, things were okay.
Speaker 5: (36:39)
Um, second year things started to fall apart for me personally, I remember a lot of nights laying in my bed, in my, um, uh, apartment that I had with Danielle Marinelli and just feeling like I was full of these like blood and emotions. And I just had these little tiny pinpricks in my skin. So it was just barely seeping out. And all I wanted to do was just let everything out of me, but I didn't, you know what I mean? I had no context for this. So I was just, you know, you're like a 20 year old, so you're like, this is embarrassing. I'm ashamed of it. I'm probably guilty, you know, all those things. So yeah, DePaul was a weird time. It was like a transitional time. Right.
Speaker 3: (37:20)
Did, did anyone know that this had happened to you in, at DePaul?
Speaker 5: (37:26)
Um, I didn't want to, I'd kind of been treated. I've been kind of, um, you know, living through that, suddenly everything in my life was totally different. So my friends looked at me differently. My I just, every thing in your social status, changes around. People greet you with like eyes rimmed with tears and they're like, how are you? Like, you know, inside you're like, I'm 18 and I just want to disappear. Like I don't, you know, talk to the guy next door. So I didn't really want to bring it into DePaul with me. I don't think it wasn't a conscious decision. There was one time in a Phyllis's class and I'm like, I loved that class freshman year. Like how could you not? She's the goddess walking amongst us. Um, and I remember she was like, okay, you know, today we're gonna start getting into emotions.
Speaker 5: (38:18)
And I remember there was this little shoot of fear that was like, Oh. Like, no, I'm like, I might go haywire. I don't know what's going to happen. So I took Phyllis on a walk and was like, and I told Phyllis what had gone on. Um, cause I felt really safe with her. She was great. She was like, I got you. Don't worry about it. I will either tell people or not tell people if you don't want me to, but I will keep an eye out for you if you start going off the rails. So she was the only one that knew. Wow,
Speaker 2: (38:47)
Well that's, that makes sense that, that, you know, voice class was where most people cried, but all of the physical stuff we did, I would imagine all of it would be, um, potentially an opportunity to like be reliving some of that trauma. So do you think that you were, uh, do you think that you were just closed off you weren't ready to deal with it, so you were closed off to it, so that kind of, it didn't really come out in, in the work and it waited until you were ready to deal with it.
Speaker 5: (39:21)
Yeah. The feeling I got was that my body literally just wouldn't let me access that it was like that feeling of shock when you first get burned and you don't feel it for a second or you like break your leg, you don't feel it for a second. And you're like, this is weird that I feel like I should be hurting. And then it like kicks in. That was mama. Cause it kicked in for me, um, a while later. And it was, yeah, it was intense. So
Speaker 2: (39:48)
When it did kick in, what w what were you, what was happening in your life at that time?
Speaker 5: (39:54)
So it was, um, so it was by the way, thank you guys for being awesome. And, and talking about this and being interested. I just, like, I want to say too, like, this podcast has been amazing for me. Like, it's been such a great tool to sort of like revisit this time and it hasn't, um, it's a time that I've thought through a lot, but I only had myself to pair it to. Right. So it's so great. I mean, it's horrifying to hear what other people went through, especially your stories and stuff. I feel so much kinship with you guys because of that. Um, and so I just want to say thank you for being awesome. And I just want you to know, like, this is, this is it's, the podcast has affected me personally greatly, so I appreciate what you're doing. Awesome. So, um, to your questions, when did it kick in and what did it look like?
Speaker 5: (40:45)
Um, it was, so I said after I was living in Evanston, got cut. And then I was like, I don't really want to leave Chicago. Um, the town that I had grown up in was, um, there were lots of, I felt at the time that there were a lot of rumors about me and there were people who did not like me in my hometown because these boys had died and I was the person responsible. I wasn't drinking. I wasn't anything. It was just a, it was like a traffic sign that I missed. Um, but I didn't want to go back to Highland. Um, so I got an appointment apartment, like up in like the, um, like Boystown area. And, um, it was like the best thing about that apartment all the time. Like two blocks from the Lake, like, was this like college kids doing living there?
Speaker 5: (41:35)
It was amazing. It was so good. And, uh, so I was living there and then it was like, okay, I'm going to take some classes. Um, so I took classes that first, like trimester or whatever, and I went home for, um, uh, like the holiday break or whatever. And it was, I think the day after Christmas, or a couple days after Christmas, I was kind of that like super quiet, chill time at home. Um, and everybody was gone for the day and, you know, I was just like at home chilling, like a total like pajamas kind of moment. And, um, I remember I went to like, I don't know, slice a bagel or something. And I pulled out the knife drawer and I was like, Whoa, you can slit your wrists with those knives. Like, wow, that's crazy. So I like shut the knife drawer.
Speaker 5: (42:22)
And I was like, never look at knives again. Okay. And then like, I like looked at where the toaster was plugged in and I was like, Oh, you could put your finger in that socket and kill yourself. And I was like, ah, microwave, you can put your head into microwave and kill yourself. You can put your head in the oven. And it's like, my brain wasn't responsible for my thoughts. It was, it just started taking over. And I was like, the only thing it could think of was everything. I looked at the different ways that it could kill you, that you could kill yourself. And I wasn't like, Hey, you know, death sounds great. Like, I would love to commit suicide right now. Like, it wasn't that I wasn't like, you know, it, wasn't walking around in like an emo funk. You ideally idealizing it or anything.
Speaker 5: (43:05)
Um, I literally, wasn't in control of my brain for the first time ever. And I was just freaked out and I didn't know what to do. Nobody was home. I couldn't talk, you know, like cell phones or anything at the time. So I was just like freaked out. Um, and I kind of spent the day like this. I think I like took a bath and just try to get away from everything. And I was like, ah, can you can drown yourself? Like, there's just no place that didn't have something that you could use to kill yourself. Um, and so I remember laying in bed underneath the covers and I called, um, Carrie Peters, who I was good friends with at the time. And, um, cause I'd given her a ride back home for the holidays. I don't know why, or maybe she called me. I think she called me because it felt so angelic that kind of Holy crap.
Speaker 5: (43:51)
I can't believe you're calling right now. And, um, so I believe she called me and I was just like freaking out. Like, I don't know. Like I just want to, like, I just keep thinking of all the different ways that I can kill myself. I don't want to. And thank God. I mean, Carrie Peters saved my life. Um, she was like, hang on, I know a therapist I'm gonna call them. And she was like, you're safe, right where you are, don't move a muscle. I want you to think about everybody who loves you. I want you to think about like all the people, you know, in your life that love you and support you, you are a hundred percent safe. Do not go anywhere. Cause I'm calling you back in three minutes and if you've moved, I'll be like mad. And so, um, she called a therapist in Chicago. She was like, I called a therapist. They want to see you tomorrow at two. Um, can you get to Chicago safely? Do you need to, do you need a ride? What do you need? Um, and so yeah, she set me up with an appointment. I drove myself to Chicago the next day.
Speaker 6: (44:49)
That's incredible. That's incredible. I mean, it just is such a Testament to a lot of things, but the one thing is that, you know, a connection that you had with somebody who really cared at the right moment at the right time, isn't that amazing. And how wonderful that you were able to, you know, tell her, tell someone what was going on.
Speaker 5: (45:14)
Yeah. I mean, I didn't, I literally did not know anybody who had dealt with this before, you know, so it was another experience of me feeling, you know, ostracized or alone or kicked out a little bit, you know, which is, I mean, I know now that's a common trauma effect. Right. Um, and yeah, and I mean, thank God like she, yeah. Carrie Peters saved my life. I will say it until the day I die. I've told her like she kicked in like hardcore and I don't even, you know what I mean? I don't know if it was even out of the norm for her or something, but like, yeah, she happened, she called at the right moment. I'm almost positive. She called me. And um, yeah, so that really started my, so I saw that therapist and that therapist was literally like, you need to not do school.
Speaker 5: (46:02)
Like we need you in here every day. Um, and like, I need to see you for a couple hours a day and we're going to get your meds. Right. Like we're going to focus on this super, super hard. Um, and yeah. So thank God she did. So that was like, what would have been, I guess like middle of my junior year was just me like walking through Chicago, being like, I guess my job is therapy now. Like I, you know, I was trying to deal with that. And you know, in like, you know, first blushes with what th what depression feels like, what's depression feels like, what does mania feel? Like all these things where it's like, I hadn't had emotions from 17 to 19 or 20 or whatever it was. And suddenly I am a wash in all the emotions, you know what I mean? Um, so that was, that was sort of, that, that was the end of, that was in the middle of my June, what would have been my junior year. Wow.
Speaker 6: (46:57)
But you went on to finish college elsewhere,
Speaker 5: (47:01)
Right? No, no. So what I did is Nope. So what I did is I hung out in Chicago for like, until like the summer, basically that junior year, what would've been my, you know, but somewhere between junior and senior year, and then Carrie and I, who were friends still, you know, and like hanging out buds all the time. Um, we, uh, took a trip to go to my like cabin, my family's cabin in like Northern Michigan. And like, I hadn't been there since I was a kid. And it's just like little cabin in the middle of the woods, no running water, no electricity, no phone. Like, but I, it was, it had been important to me growing up and I needed to get away from like the concrete of the city. It just felt, I felt so smothered and like, you know, all these things.
Speaker 5: (47:44)
So we went there, visited, and I came back the next week to Chicago and I called my parents and I was just like, I think I just need to go to the cabin. Like I need to go live there. And they were like, that sounds sketchy. And I was like, here's the deal? I will fix the place up. Like, I will renovate it top to bottom. And my dad was like, that sounds great. He understood the, like, you need a project. You want to work with your hands. Like whatever. So I literally, so I moved from like, it was, uh, August through October of that year, I like bought a portable typewriter. I've always been a writer since I was a little kid and I bought a portable typewriter. I stole some books from the Chicago public library. That meant a lot to me. Like the Raymond Carver short stories, all kinds of like American literary classics.
Speaker 5: (48:34)
But I was like, I don't care. I'm never come back. Life doesn't mean anything anyways. Like there's like with me and moved up there. And, um, yeah, I lived without running water, electricity, not seeing anybody like real Walden, you know, for, um, about three months just kind of rebuilding my life. And in the back of my brain was, I was so tired of the ups and downs of this, that there was a really misguided thought in the back of my brain that said, you're going to go up there and you're going to get yourself off of any depressants or you're going to kill yourself. And that will be the perfect place to kill yourself. Um, so I went there and it was like, yeah, I, like I said, I, I would go weeks without seeing a person. And it was just like diet Coke and cigarettes and playing guitar and writing short stories and sanding a floor by hand, um, for weeks at a time.
Speaker 5: (49:27)
Um, and, uh, yeah, towards the end of it, I was like, okay, now's the time? Like, you're either. I mean, I didn't, you know, I didn't have a really, I didn't feel at the time, like I had a way back into society. Like I'm not, I didn't feel like I wanted to go live with my parents. Like, I didn't really know a place to live. Like, you know what I mean? I just literally felt like, so I didn't have any structure around me. I didn't feel like at the time, you know, I'm, I'm sure from the outside, my parents were doing everything they could to give me a sense of structure. Right. Um, but, uh, so yeah, so I was like, okay, you're gonna, you know, today's the day you're going to think about it. Like you're gonna kill yourself and get it over with, um, because you just, what else are you going to do?
Speaker 5: (50:08)
And you heard everybody, you know, these things that are going through my mind were like, you're a cancer, you've killed people, like all of these things. And I just was so, you know, it was on that low end of that manic depressive cycle. Right. And so, um, yeah, so I was like fully prepped to do it. And the, that saved me. You know, the thing that popped into my brain was I saw all of these short stories that I had written in this typewriter. And I was just like, but I love those. Like, but I, that I want to do more of that and communicate more with people and that's important and that's worth being alive for, um, and if you're dead, you can't make that anymore. And I just like backed away from the Exacto set and was like, Oh. Like, ah, that was terrible. You know? Um, but that was the moment where I was like, okay, we start climbing the Hill again.
Speaker 2: (51:02)
Wow. Have you written this screenplay about, about this experience?
Speaker 5: (51:07)
No. I mean, I think it went into a lot of screenplays, you know what I mean? Like, not that specific thing, but, um, yeah, after that, I, I was, you know, living in Ann Arbor. Um, and I had a filmmaking partner who was a friend of mine who had gone to Northwestern. Um, and we started, I started teaching myself how to make movies and like, because I started writing screenplays and then I was like, yeah, but then they come out and the shots are wrong, you know what I mean? Or the performances aren't great or whatever. So I was like, okay, well now I think you should learn how to direct a movie. So it's like, okay, so I'm going to write this and I'm going to direct it. And I'd be like, yeah, but then the DP doesn't get the right thing or it's not the right color temperature, you know what I mean?
Speaker 5: (51:50)
So I was like, now you need to figure out how to shoot this. And then I was like, okay. But then the edit sucks. So now you have to go, you have to figure out how to edit, you know what I mean? So it just, I just, yeah. So I just sort of taught myself, um, all of those positions, um, and yeah. Started making like independent, um, shorts and feature films, um, with my production partner. Um, and, uh, yeah, I did that for, I don't know, 12 years, something like that. I'm not sure, but, you know, we ended up with a couple of feature films that, you know, I was proud of at the time perspective changes a little bit over time, you know, but you said goodbye to filmmaking or just you've put it on pause. Yeah. I don't think I said goodbye to it.
Speaker 5: (52:37)
Um, I think it was a process like any artistic process, I guess, um, of really refining what was at the heart of why I was doing it. So, you know, at first it was like, Oh, I want to write these scenes to give people these thoughts. And then I was like, Oh, I want to create these emotions with people and you know, all of this stuff. And then it was like, Oh, I want to create this experience as well for the CA for the cast and for the crew that, you know, and so it was all these sort of things where like, okay, why are you really doing it? And, um, you know, I'm in ice cream now, which would seem to be a million miles away from that. Um, but for me, ice cream is like, I came to realize, so I was making feature films.
Speaker 5: (53:22)
And then I got a job at the university of Michigan where was basically the instructional assistant for the film program. So like they would, the professors would teach the kids, like, here's the theory of lighting a scene with three point lighting and then I'd be like, yes, but here's how guy Richie does it. And here's how this person does it. And I would like help them figure out how to make their movies and like loaning me equipment and stuff. And it was amazing. Um, and then I had a job after that at the university of Michigan, where I got to actually make videos for the university, which sounds drier than what you would imagine. But I had access to these like brilliant minds, like literally one of the instructors who I had like a major professor crush on was like creating a map of the universe, the very first map of the universe.
Speaker 5: (54:06)
He was like, one of the team of people that's doing this. Right. And when I asked him, like, does that seem insane? He was like, yeah. But there was a point in time when making a map of the world seemed impossible, you know, it's like, you know, so, um, uh, so I realized as like, as I started getting, making shorter and shorter movies and videos and started doing, you know, basically everything about it on my own from top to bottom, I realized like, Oh, you're, this is what we're doing here is really sequencing emotional responses to things. Right? So it's like, you introduce the main character. It's like, Oh, I like her because her eyebrows are like mine. And then it's like, Oh no, but what if, what if the car door gets hit as she's getting out? Like, Oh, she's saying, you know, and so it was like sequencing these emotional responses and ice.
Speaker 5: (54:55)
And I started making ice cream as like a stress reliever. Um, and then as I was like feeding it to people at farmer's markets and stuff, I started to realize they would just have these very big emotional responses to the ice cream. And I was like, Oh, I can do the same thing with ice cream, but I can bypass the brain completely. Right. Like it's ice cream food, just go straight to your heart. And so I would have people and I still do to this day where they, like, they hug me or they start laughing. I had one woman who like, she like started laughing and then she started crying and then she hugged me and she did a little dance and turned around and she was like, that took me right back to my grandmother's, um, mint patch. Like, I, I like thank you for giving me that moment.
Speaker 5: (55:39)
You know what I mean? And like, I mean, I get chills talking about it. Like, that's the kind of stuff where I'm like, I love ice cream. I love being improved because you can just bypass all the that keeps people feeling disconnected from each other. And you can give them like a real experience. You know what I mean? You could give them a real feeling and you're right there with them. And you can create a sense of connection with people, which was, I think what I was maybe always going for with movies, you know what I mean? Whereas like a movie kind of stays up on the screen and you kind of connect to it, you know, but you feel the intent of the creators with this. It's like, you can be right there and you're like, now try this flavor. Now try this other flavor and you can give people such a wow,
Speaker 6: (56:26)
That's beautiful. And what you are is a really, um, more, well-rounded more empathic Willy Wonka. He's a little creepy, but you're not as creepy, but the same like cats, what he wanted to do in that movie was like give people the adventure of a lifetime through delicious status.
Speaker 5: (56:49)
Totally. Yeah. So thank you for that. I appreciate that.
Speaker 6: (56:56)
About since you mentioned doing a little bit of working through of your own experience by listening to other people, what are some specific moments you've had or, or, or emotional, maybe not apifany, but realizations that you've had from listening to other people about their theater school experience.
Speaker 5: (57:18)
I think the emotional manipulation, like it was emotional on psychological manipulation of a group of folks who are very suggestible. Right. Um, and I think that's been both heartbreaking and reassuring to realize, you know, I, I think I didn't realize the structure of what was going on around me and like, you know, I mean, sure, yes, I've watched every cult documentary that's out there right now. Sure. I might be biased towards that, but there's the grounds of a cult, you know, like there's the grounds of cult think going on there. And I don't think anybody was trying to do that. I think it's, you know, it's, um, artists who want to get a certain thing from you at a time when maybe you're not totally ready to be there working inside of, you know, the hierarchy of faculty positions, which is a nightmare inside of itself to navigate.
Speaker 5: (58:20)
If you're a woman, you're a person of color, you're, whatever, that's all, you know, so you've got all of those things going on, plus sort of like, you know, uh, artistic fulfillment, personal fulfillment. And sometimes people are just not having a good day, just bad at their jobs, but it's like a pivotal moment for the students. You know what I mean? Um, so I think really it's been just hearing that, that emotional manipulation was going on for, for everybody. Like, um, it's caused me to think back to like what my like, reviews or like, you know, the warnings first year and then like, versus the warning second year and all that stuff, which is like hilarious. Cause I haven't like really thought about that stuff in forever. Um, but I remember is this going where you want it to go, by the way, I don't want to just like ramble and you know, not give you guys usable stuff.
Speaker 5: (59:15)
Okay, good. Um, but I remember after I remember in freshman year, so I David and I think both of you for sure, Gina, you were in my section, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I had David and like that class was super fun. Dude was like, you know, I mean, especially for like straight white guy, right. Like I'm sure David's, you know, I'm in David's pocket. Um, and you know, I like, you know, was the kind of kid who realized early on like, Oh, if you give teachers what they want, you get what you want. And they're like, it's fine. Like that's you just please people and move through it and it's going to be fine. Right. And then, you know, you come up against theater school where that like not be economy there. Um, right. And um, so David was, you know, super easy, um, for me, like it was just play and I was kind of realizing like, Oh, you've got a pretty active imagination.
Speaker 5: (01:00:07)
Your brain moves kind of fast. Like this isn't really a thing. Like dude wants you to be a squirrel for an hour. Great. Um, you know, and so I, um, so like my first year I remember like my, like, I don't know you had meetings with people. It wasn't automatically like a warning, I don't think. Or maybe it was. Um, but I remember meeting with David and I think this would have been like your like warning thing. And I didn't get like a warning. I got like sunshine up my. Like he was just like, you're the top school for sure. And he said, here are the next job. And I was just like.
Speaker 5: (01:00:52)
Yeah, dude. I was like, I mean, maybe he said, you remind me of John Malcovich 18 year old. Rob was just like, um, John Malcovich, you know, um, which is like insane and embarrassing to even say a loud, you know what I mean? But like that movie out of it, so that's crazy. Exactly, exactly. And I was like, that's me, I'm one of those 40 Malcovich is, um, so yeah, like that was intense. Oh. And then I saw John Malcovich at the Athenian room as I was walking by like a couple days later and I was like, real it's real it's John Malcovich is right there. He's having a, you know, a hero. So that was like the first year. And like, as I look at it, I'm like, okay, that's you don't say that to a person unless you're like chuffing them up. You know what I mean?
Speaker 5: (01:01:47)
Maybe he thought I needed something like that. Or maybe he was just a very high, it was like, this'll be fun. Let's tell the kid he's John Malcovich, you know, like, you know, it's the theater school. We don't know. Um, so that was the first year and I was just like, like, this is great. I'm John Malcovich now. Everything's cool. So then I went into sophomore year and like coming back to sophomore year, I was just darker, like as a person, I was like, I just felt heavier emotionally. I was like, I don't know quite what's going on. Um, I had Trudy for voice and Don Elko, which I think did you have done Elko too? That's when we were in the class. Okay.
Speaker 6: (01:02:29)
He hated my guts and that's okay. But it broke my heart, but yeah, he was brutal that guy sometimes.
Speaker 5: (01:02:35)
Yeah. And he was, um, I mean, I kind of liked him in that he was such a caricature of like a theater professor, because he was like, I just remember him being twisted into pretzel shapes. You would finish something and dude would grunts and you'd be like, Oh God, it's the grudge. You know, he would spend like, literally that's what my professor told me today was
Speaker 6: (01:03:00)
I just remember I was so jealous because he really liked Gina. He really liked Gina
Speaker 5: (01:03:07)
With good reason. Cause gene is amazing. Look at him having great tastes, Darnell. Um, but yeah, so my review with Don Yoko is wildly different. Um, at the time I I've always liked wearing baseball caps. Like it's fun hats. I don't know. Or my thing, I guess I just like, as a little kid, I would wear the weirdest on my head. And at the time I was wearing this baseball cap that I literally never thought about, but it was like a maroon tap and it had the words bland or the word bland on it and like gold lettering. I word it all the time because I lived in Wrigleyville and walked to school 30 minutes, like, you know, not a lot of showering going on in those days. And so I remember going in and he was like, Hmm. You know, I was like, Ugh, this is not off to a good start.
Speaker 5: (01:03:59)
Like it started with a grunt and he was like, we need to talk about your hat. And I was just like, what? Like I had prepped for this review being like, okay, well, if he mentions my object work, I'll say this. And if he mentions this, you know what I mean? Cause like we didn't talk about your hat and he's like, you know, we've, we've been talking about it and feel, it represents how you feel about yourself inside. And I was like, no, no I don't. Um, no, it's just my, like, it's just a, it's a hat. And um, I was like, I think it's funny because I was just sound like it's explaining my like theory about nineties headwear to the guy, you know? Like I was like, you know, basketball, hats. They just have all these graphics on them. I think this is funny.
Speaker 5: (01:04:47)
I was like, I don't see myself as bland. It's ironic. And he was like, no, it's not irony. It's a deeper issue for you. And I just remember being like, Oh my God. And like I knew Trudy Kessler did not like me. I don't know. She probably didn't even think about me. I felt like I was Trudy. Cussler just hated my guts. Cause she had said some, some gnarly to me in, um, rehearsal one night, like just out of the blue. So I was like, Oh, this is a Trudy, Don they'll go like, then I'm in the middle of, and this is not good. And so he was just like, yeah, I don't know what your problem is. But like we think it's the hats. Um, and what you need to work on is kind of everything. Like your emotions are weird. We don't know where those are going most of the time.
Speaker 5: (01:05:36)
Like, and I just remember it was like this, like, I didn't know what to act on other than the hat. Like there wasn't really a way forward. And so I was like, Ooh. So I remember I walked out of there and I remember my body feeling so hot and like eruptive. Right? Like it was just, I could feel things boiling inside of me. And I think I had sort of my first dissociative kind of break there in that moment. And I'm only thinking about it, you know, thinking back on it now because you know, I lived kind of towards the Lake from the theater school and I remember being like, I can't go anywhere where anyone knows me. I can't be seen like I'm wigged out and there's no place safe for me to go. So I went left and just kind of started walking West.
Speaker 5: (01:06:21)
And I don't really remember. I remember I sort of came to like an hour and a half later and I, and I was just thinking about the hat the whole time I came to like an hour and a half later in the hat was like in shreds in my hand. And I like ripped up the hat and I was somewhere I had never been before. I was like, uh, I guess I'll walk. So I remember I just threw the hat in the garbage and I was like, well, that's a done deal. And I will walk towards the Lake now and find home. So that was my warning. It was, it was intense. It, my intense, I think I just, I didn't, I didn't know how to process emotions. Right? Like my body was like shut down at that point. And I just didn't know, I didn't know how to do emotions. And so my body was like, we're going to crack, we're going to crack this a little bit open for you. And we're going to, you're going to feel some of these things. And I think my brain just separated a little bit, you know, so
Speaker 2: (01:07:18)
If we did a thought experiment and we tried to reimagine those first couple of years without the emotional manipulation, like knowing yourself as you know yourself going back in time, crawling back, what could somebody have said to you that would have led to you not feeling like you had to retraumatize yourself or experience a different type of trauma or just, you know, tread up your hat, but that instead it could have been something that would have impelled you to move forward and become a better actor.
Speaker 5: (01:07:57)
Yeah. So first of all, I love a thought experiment, so thank you. Uh, and also this is a great question. Um, so I'm, I'm hyped right now. This is great. Um, what, how could they have handled it differently in a different system? Um, I honestly don't know. I don't know. Um, second year had just been about play and if it wasn't, I mean, the, the way that I've described my college experience to folks is like combat group therapy. Um, it's very competitive and there's landmines everywhere. And yet you're also being told, like, you know, these are the things that are wrong with your insides kind of thing. Like it was, you know,
Speaker 6: (01:08:48)
You're outside and you're outside. It wasn't just that. So that's, I just, I think it's a double whammy for most people because we're being told that our body is our instrument and our instrument is faulty on the inside and the outside. Most of us never. Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 5: (01:09:13)
And like, you know, say, I mean, saying that to anybody terrible saying it to women saying it to people of color saying it, you know what I mean? Not, I'm not that there was really, you know, they weren't real heavy on the people of color and the representation that's for sure at that time. Um, but they, um, yes, they, I once was told, I think it might, Trudy told me this, if I'm not mistaken, um, that I'll never be Brad Pitt's, but, uh, because I'm not attractive enough. And so I'll never get leading man roles. And so I should get used to that and not aim for that. Um, but I might get more sort of like character actor roles, like a Wallace Shawn type
Speaker 6: (01:09:56)
By the way. But 10 year old wants to be told, they look like Wallace, Sean, you know what I mean? Yeah.
Speaker 5: (01:10:05)
Now I'd be like, sweet. I look like, well, let's shop. This is amazing. But at the time, like the actors I really knew were like Leonardo DiCaprio, you know what I mean? Like I didn't really, you know, um, so that was, yeah, the body stuff is so insane what you would say to kids. But so I think how it could have maybe been handled differently in a different system would really be if second year was closer to what my experience of first year was, where if there was sort of less structure, less expectation for what level everyone would be at and meeting the students where they are not necessarily where you are expecting them to get or where you're maybe forecasting that you would like the students to be like, uh, not even experienced this at the university of Michigan. When I was in the film program, there's, um, a white washing in a funneling, a narrowing down that happens.
Speaker 5: (01:10:58)
So, you know, in the first year, even at the film program at the university of Michigan and certainly at DePaul, when I was there in both of those places, you know, they would have these classes that really open kids up. And I would see these first-year students do awesome work. And it was like personal experiences about their families and where they come from and like their narrative. And it was women. It was, you know what I mean? It was, I have regroup and, and people were like blossoming. And then by second year it was like, all of the women became producers because they could call for lunch. You know what I mean? And so if there was a woman who was like, I'm really into cinematography, like the boys would just take the cameras. Right. And there, and the system was designed to sort of narrow people down into what they thought this Hollywood model was at the time.
Speaker 5: (01:11:45)
Um, and I feel like DePaul was largely similar to that, um, where they started sort of saying like, Oh, well, we get that, you know, Rob has, we'll never be Brad Pitt. You know what I mean? And, but he doesn't have the stuff to be a Wallace Shawn. Um, so I think if it had been open to meeting students where they're at and, um, I mean, there's such a focus on sort of the you're, it's, it's an artistic field and it's an artistic endeavor and you're dealing with people who are artists, but then there's also sort of the business aspect of it. And that's a big part of it. Um, and I think not really contextualizing how those two things sit with each other and not, you know, um, I feel like they didn't do a good job of telling kids like this is the artistic part of it. This is the expression. This is the part that you will keep with you forever. Right. Um, but then this is also the business side of it. And those two things don't have to relate to each other in certain ways you can redefine how those things interact. So, um, I think that would've been really helpful. I mean, I, you know, and I, I think that takes care of the emotional, the emotional manipulation and all of that stuff, you know, does that answer your question? Does that, okay,
Speaker 6: (01:13:03)
Boss, I want to ask the same question of you knowing what you know now about
Speaker 5: (01:13:07)
Yourself and your experience,
Speaker 6: (01:13:09)
What, what might have been a better fit for you? So for, um, for starters, just letting me know, and this is what I try to do. So Rob, I teach at DePaul now as, um, in the spring I teach to BFA fours and what I let them
Speaker 5: (01:13:26)
I've listened to the podcast. I'm so excited. So yeah,
Speaker 6: (01:13:30)
Well, what I wish more than anything for me, of someone like me, a people pleasing body shame, um, mixed heritage human, or maybe Al of us, I don't know, saying to me, please fail, fail here, fail, fail, brilliantly, fail all the time here. So that when you get out of here, regardless of what you do, you have build resilience to know that it's okay. So to fail, whatever your fear is, the shame I needed a school that busted my shame down, not reinforced it. And so I found a school that reinforced every single one of my phobias about myself, and then just delayed it like years. Rob delayed, my travel was, was a different travel, but like delayed my trauma until I was 30 and then had to go into, you know, massive amounts of therapy. And it didn't, it just didn't help. It could have, and as a, as my favorite psychiatrist used to say, it could have worked like it worked for people.
Speaker 6: (01:14:32)
Look, they seem happy, healthy, and they're famous and doing whatever they're doing. It just wasn't didn't work for me. What about you, Gina? What about you? Well, I kind of like what Rob said about, you know, having more subtlety or variation or nuance in imagining the type of career that a variety of people could have. So, and, and by the way, I'll preface this by saying I'm not certain, this would, I'm not certain, it was incumbent upon the theater school to do this a and B uh, um, I'm not certain, it would have even been necessarily their place, but I'll just say it would have been great looking back if somebody had said, so, do you, uh, want to do theater or do you want to do film and TV? And I would have said, I want to do theater. And then they would said, great, are you independently wealthy?
Speaker 6: (01:15:23)
And I would've said no. And then I said, okay, so you're going to have to have it. You can be, you can be, you can have a whole career as a theater person, but there's a chance it won't pay your bills. So, so start thinking now about how, what the job is that you're going to have and whether or not that's going to feed you and whether or not you're going to be in this position that so many of us has been in, have you, you can't do theater or you can't practice your art because the demands of the job or, or overwhelming. Um, even if somebody had said to me, like, you know, a kind of an easy job to get, although I'm not a singer, but on a cruise ship, you know, they're always hiring people on the cruise ship or, or, or, or maybe you don't think you're right for film and TV, but you, you could make some easy money, like being an extra and then, and have some expo.
Speaker 6: (01:16:19)
Just anything that was like really looking at me and really evaluating my strengths and weaknesses, and then really creating a plan that was unique to me and the school, frankly, especially in the fourth year with 20 kids, it was small enough that they could have done that for everybody. I totally agree. And I think we needed guidance counselors in the theaters to sit down with us and say, Hey, I see you like to write, you should think about X. I just, if we had had personalized guidance career counselors that had said, you are not like your classmates in this way, check out this. And, and it would have been, I think the thing you said that really resonated with me, Gina too, was this just individualized, if a more of an individ look at, say, okay, Rob, you're a character actor, but you could also be a leading man. So, but let's look at, you know, anyway, let, let's have a little more nuance. Someone brought us at nuance and it's like, let's be a little more nuanced.
Speaker 5: (01:17:22)
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there was no attempt to help me associate my personal relationship with my art and where it came from and how that was the thing that was going to sustain me, you know, both personally and professionally throughout the rest of my time with it. Right. So it was like, you know, they took the worst parts of the industry, which is the judgment, the shame, the like making people small, the white washing. And they introduced that right away on like day one. Right. Um, and, and I think, you know, that's especially crushing when you're dealing with kids who are burgeoning as artists and they're figuring out who they want to be, how they want to carry that through the world, you know? Yeah. For sure. Definitely. Yeah. I'm just looking at the clock. I can't believe we're running low on time. So is our,
Speaker 6: (01:18:12)
I have to say, this is a story. This is a TD story that my psychiatrist told me that is, reminds me so much of you Rob, and what you've been through. It's very short. I'll tell you. I had the psychiatrist who saved my life when I was 30. And I, my father had died of a drug overdose and I went to him and Gina knows this. I was very suicidal, very, very not well. And, um, he told me and I was guilty. I thought, for sure, I could have saved my father, like, and he said, I'm going to tell you a story. And he was an old school psychiatrist back in the day when people could stay in hospitals, like for three months, four months. And he told me, I once had a patient and he was a soldier in the Polish resistance in world war II.
Speaker 6: (01:18:56)
Okay. And this soldier and he wouldn't talk, he wouldn't talk, his whole platoon had been killed. He wouldn't talk. He wouldn't talk. He was the only one that survived. And so, but he refused to talk about his experience. And so every day my psychiatrist would have him go to the woodworking shop in the, in the mental hospital and sand aboard. And it reminded me of your sanding and sand, the sport. And every night my psychiatrist would go down who smoked at the time and put out his cigarette on the board and say sanded again. So he had to sand. And this went on for a long time until finally the soldier, the ex-soldier got so enraged that he started screaming. This is an impossible task. You have given me an impossible task. And my psychiatrist, God love him said, and you were given the impossible task of running face first into a huge battle.
Speaker 6: (01:19:55)
And you chose to save yourself by turning the other way and running. He had run, he had left to save his life. And he said, you were set up from the beginning. So he recreated this thing. And from that day on, when the guy got really and cracked open at this board being sanded and being burned, and he finally started to heal it, it just totally reminds me of you of like the idea that right. We're ready when we're ready, but we did get help and teachers along the way, some are kinder than others, but you've managed to do the work and you've managed to do it in a way, and now you're using your experience. Um, and by the way, this guy went on to become a therapist, the, the Polish combat for combat vets. And so you're doing the same thing with your ice cream. So it's like, it's like, you're man, you're helping other people with, through your experience, through your sanding of the board. It just really reminded me of yeah.
Speaker 5: (01:20:55)
Yeah. Thank you. That's really. Yeah. And I really appreciate that and I appreciate you sharing that with me. And, um, I also see it as similar to what you guys are doing with the podcast, right? Like you're looking at your and you're sharing it with folks, you know? And, um, I mean, I think, you know, at DePaul, they did, you know, none of those folks knew, right? Like Trudy Kessler didn't know who I was on the inside and what was going on. So she's saying they snarky things, um, and she doesn't know how it's being received. Then again, that person wasn't adult at the time and could have, could have maybe chosen differently. Right. Um, so, you know, like you guys say, we do the best at the time. We all did the best at the time. And, um, yeah, DePaul taught me some amazing things about empathy and how to really see other people and what's going on in the situation.
Speaker 5: (01:21:47)
Um, it really taught me to be observant and it taught me different ways that people go through their lives. Um, and that has been, I think the thing that I've carried with me and that's impacted me more than anything has just been, being able to really see people and imagine what's going on for them and sort of embody that yourself. And that is such a rare gift. And so people say like, Oh, would you go back to theater school again, given how, you know, the of it? Um, and I, a hundred percent would I, I think it was exactly the right thing, even though it was so wrong at the right time for me, um, I really needed it. I think if I hadn't gotten those skills, if I had, you know, been an engineering student or something, how would I have processed all this stuff that was going on with me? Would I have been in touch with my body? Would I have turned to art, which is eventually the thing that kind of saved me. Right. Um, and made me decide to keep going. So it was, uh, yeah, it was a very traumatic time and there were some wrongs. Um, there, there are a lot of wrongs and a lot of situations. So it did teach me sort of that resiliency at an early, at an early age. So thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that.
Speaker 6: (01:22:58)
So Rob, tell us, tell everybody where they can find your fabulous ice cream, so you can find it at
Speaker 5: (01:23:06)
Go ice cream, go.com. Um, and, uh, yeah, we're gonna start shipping nationwide this coming year. Right now, we're a small handmade, small batch ice cream store in, you know, a small college town outside of Ann Arbor. Um, but the popularity keeps growing and, uh, yeah, we're going to start shipping nationwide coming soon.
Speaker 1: (01:23:26)
Will you be debuting trauma burrito, flavor, anytime
Speaker 5: (01:23:32)
They're all trauma burrito flavor. That's the spoiler. You know what I mean? It's like, I think about flavors based off of my experience and things that I want to say to people about things. Um, and so they always have stories, right? Like that's how I started with it. I would come up with a story, right? Like it would be about my relationship to my dad and masculinity. And that flavor was a black licorice flavor. And then I would write that story, take pictures of it, put it up on a blog. And that was how it all kind of started, was thinking about those stories and where food lives for me and sharing that with folks. So, yeah, it's all trauma burritos, baby.
Speaker 1: (01:24:11)
I love it. I love it. This is absolutely lovely to see you guys. It's been so healing and I survived theater school as an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plea cheat, or the co-hosts this episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.
Intro: Gina is totally over it. Performing chores, repetition, BOREDOM, the promise of Clubhouse.
Let Me Run This By You: Have you ever committed a crime unintentionally?
Interview: We talk to Jason Peck about studying at not one but two theatre schools - USC and Florida State University. Jason helps us compare the different conservatory experiences. Also, the trope of "breaking you down to build you up", studying alongside the likes of Leonardo DiCaprio and Maggie Gyllenhaal at the Young Actors Space as a child actor, what Jason has learned about teaching the craft of acting. Then, we talk about Eric Bogosian and the rewrites of SubUrbia that Jason was a part of.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Are you high going out?
Speaker 2: (00:33)
There's only so much playing in the snow you can do, right. I mean, there's,
Speaker 3: (00:37)
There's only so much playing in the snow. You can do. I think we're in the phase and maybe we've always been in or been at it for a while or we're returning to it. But the phase of the self isolation where it's like, we're all kind of low key, like nothing matters. There's no point to anything. This is all just, yes, this is all just like, like I'll be doing the dishes and I'll just think like, I'm just performing this dishes act, right. Just performing the trash act. I mean, it's all like, I'm not suggesting that it would be better if we just ignored that and lived in, uh, in squalor, but at the same time, right. It's just does feel like, what are we doing?
Speaker 2: (01:21)
Yeah, it is. It is, it does feel like it's never, um, for me, I just go back and forth to different houses that aren't my house. Uh, we just keep, we keep eating. We keep going, you know, to the bathroom, it's just the same. And it's just, it just there's, uh, we need a break. We all need a break and something fun to happen because this is, this is pretty, you know? Yes. It could be worse. Yes. We're healthy, relatively speaking. And, but it's real boring. I mean, I think what you're talking about is a real deep level border Bordeaux going on.
Speaker 3: (01:59)
One of the things, one of the States of being that I dislike the most is being bored, but ha but having a lot to do. Yeah. Like having a lot of tasks on my plate. Um, and I should say, I mean, I am finding things to keep me stimulated. I'm not entirely bored. I can say that there's was a good portion of my life since living here. Well, even, maybe before, uh, where I was extremely busy working really hard and just so bored because nothing was feeding me creatively, whatever intellectually. So thank God for this venture between us. Thank God for a clubhouse, which I'm addicted to.
Speaker 2: (02:56)
Okay. Close, cut. Cause everyone I'm seeing in all my forum, like all of the pages, I'm a part of online, like, right. Like I'm a part of some writer's groups. I'm a part of some women's Facebook thing. Everyone is going on clubhouse now. So I'm once our, after our interview today, I'm going to T-Mobile and get my, and get my iPhone. Good.
Speaker 4: (03:15)
Oh, I'm so excited for you. Yeah, you're gonna, I mean, it's like a blessing and a curse it's w if you're like me, you'll get on it and then it's hard to get, it's hard to get off of it. Um, but it's amazing because, and I've been saying this so much recently, but it's still true. It's amazing because it's talking about boring. Part of what's boring about social media is that you're just seeing so much of people's self curated self image, and you never know like what to believe about what the person is presenting to you. And in this case, I mean, I'm certain, there are ways that people can filter themselves on this app too. But for how it is for right now for me is it's only people's voices.
Speaker 4: (04:12)
So there's, to me, there's nothing to hide behind. I mean, you're hiding because you don't have to, we don't have to see your face, but, but to me, like the value of a person is not in their face, it's in their minds. And you know, not, not to say like they have to be intellectual or anything like that. I'm just saying like P people's perspective. People's thoughts about the world. That's, what's compelling to me about other people or not compelling to me about other people as the case may be and what you find on, on clubhouses people. And, and don't get me wrong. There's plenty of, I was saying to somebody last night, so far, I can identify a few different tiers or, or categories of people. And it's same thing as true on any other social media platform. But, um, there's the internet hustlers, the people who are trying to make a buck, the life coaches, the preneurs, the venture, you know, so there's that whole side of things. Then there's, you know, people who, and this may be a lot, a lot of, a lot of us people who are, have been so socially isolated, that they're just longing for human connection. Um, and I forgot where I was going.
Speaker 2: (05:25)
That's okay. But there's different tiers of people. So like, so there's different categories of like, who who's trying to do, what on there.
Speaker 4: (05:33)
Right. Who's trying to do what, and, and, and the, the, the category that I'm finding myself attracted to is something that I really have not done very much of in my life, which is trying to synthesize different worlds together. So like, there's a lot of tech people on there, and I don't know anything about tech and there's a lot of big thinkers
Speaker 3: (05:58)
On there, which I'm not a big thinker. So, so when the, when you were in a room and you hear the tech people talking to the, um, to, uh, some artistic type of person talking to some finance type of person, and they're all smart, you're hearing the way that they look at the world as much more integrated than I tend to think, and to think about things in silos, you know, like, there's like, like how I describe clubhouse. There are these three sections of people. Those people probably wouldn't say that they would probably say, there's the people who are talking about something real. And then the people who aren't, the people who are talking about something real are really like integrating, I've heard all kinds of terms. I've never heard of looking things up all the time. Yeah. It's very exciting. It's very cool. And last night, um, the person who got me onto this app is the sky.
Speaker 3: (06:53)
I know, even, not really, even that well, but I'm getting to know him so much better. Um, who's in theater and we want to do something on there. That's theater related. And we had a meeting last night to try to figure out what we should do. And I was thinking very simply, like, we should just read plays. We should, we should, um, bring back sort of like the radio play version of things, uh, which is fine. And we could do that, but who ended up coming into the room was this guy who has nothing to do with theater, except that he's a huge, he's a musician and he's a connoisseur of all the arts. And he started talking about it just started going off on this tangent about the opera. And I first, I was like, where is this going? And what he was really talking about was why he loves opera is it's this distilled like cauldron of passion. Oh, that is so undeniable. And, and it got me to thinking like, what else we could do besides just reading plays anyway, it's a whole lot thing, but it was fun and exciting and interesting and engaging. And I realized that if I feel engaged in that way, I can then go do the rest of my boring. I think that's so true.
Speaker 2: (08:11)
I, I can totally relate to that. There was a time when I was working in social services and I had zero creative, any, any fulfilling thing happening in my life. And I thought I can't do this. I literally felt, uh, it was, it was beyond depression. It wasn't, uh, it wasn't like a clinical depression. It was more like, Oh, I cannot sustain this. I have to make a change. It was active. I was like, Oh, I need something creative in my life. And that's when I started telling, writing and telling stories that these like open mic, you know, live lit storytelling nights because I was like, I need something. All I'm doing is, you know, doing therapy in groups with, with addicts all day. And I, this is not, and that was not fulfilling my creative, the creative needs. So it's interesting that you say that. Yeah, I agree. I can do the tasks, the taxes, the mundane tasks. If I have something in my life that is really exciting. And I think we're all reaching the point of the pandemic where it's like, what is exciting? And so I'm glad clubhouse has come along because now we have a new thing.
Speaker 3: (09:18)
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's something to get excited about. And that's an interesting point. I, I, I'm not certain how well this might've taken off. If it weren't for the pandemic, maybe it would have, because it's still, it's still fulfilling this need of the getting rid of the noise and garbage of the social media platforms as they us. And I'm sure it's only a matter of time before. There's a bunch of noise and garbage on this one too, but to be in the, and I, I, you know, it's been around, I guess since June, but most people like the earliest, I really see people having joined is October. Mostly people are like coming into it in the last month.
Speaker 2: (10:03)
It's really, and a lot of industry people like entertainment, industry talks and, and are doing all their stuff on clubhouse, like join counselors.
Speaker 3: (10:13)
Yes. There's a ton of that. Actors filmed. It. It's all, it's a lot of film and TV. I mean, when they have, um, industry stuff, but also a lot of stuff about podcasting. So I joined several podcasts and I got all that info that I was sharing them.
Speaker 2: (10:31)
Oh, good. So good. I really, I really, I'm really excited. I'm also excited to get an iPhone that way we can do all kinds of things. There's face-time miles and miles said, when I said, I'm getting an iPhone today, he said, will you FaceTime me? I'm like miles. We live together. We're always together. What are we FaceTiming? What am I? He has an iPhone. And he's, he has an iPhone fancy one. And I'm here with an Android from, you know, the Ford administration. I don't know.
Speaker 3: (10:59)
You go down the Android path
Speaker 2: (11:03)
Really. You know, I think it stems from my, um, okay. So, you know, all transparency when I left and I hope I don't go to jail, but when I left my, my big wig job in Hollywood, for me, it was a big wig job. Everyone else was like, ah, but when I left that job, I maintained a cell phone. That was not, that was being paid for by the company. And I, and that was, that was all Android based. And so then when there would have been a natural transition to like, Hey, just get an iPhone. Like everyone else. I just, I had already been like in entrenched in, in, in non iPhone phone situation. And now, and then it just got to be that thing where it's like too late. Like, I, I just felt like so behind that, I was just like, Oh, I'll just stay with my Samsung. And now I'm like, no, no, just, well,
Speaker 3: (11:57)
And that, that's what people who were really into blackberries. They had a hard time giving them their blackberries, but to, you know, to be honest, sometimes I really resent being, so co-opted into Apple that I like, I could never make a change now I am. So, you know, all in there. It's so entangles, um, and for the most part that that's fine. It's great. They're great applications. It's great technology, but at some point it's going to be terrible and get eclipsed by something else, and then we're going to be stuck with it.
Speaker 2: (12:35)
Yeah. I mean, there's the whole thinking of like one Facebook falls, you know, if face, because that's a matter of time because of so many problems and it's like, what are we, are we all gonna move to clubhouse and just do that? And then, or is there going to be another platform that's like Facebook that people I'm sure of developing madly and it just hasn't taken off yet. And they're probably all out there. So we're all just, you know what we're sheeple. I mean, it's, it's, that's what we are. That's okay. What else can we do? I mean, we're just yet, we're just, we can buy and we're just trying to get through. We're just trying to get through.
Speaker 5: (13:11)
Everybody is trying to get through, let me run this by you. Have you ever,
Speaker 2: (13:24)
Um, committed? This is, this is kind of crazy, but have you ever committed a crime inadvertently, meaning have you ever set a fire by accident? Have you ever, um, and I, have you ever not intentionally committed a crime? Okay. Now miles is chiming in about intent about crime. It doesn't matter miles, miles. He really wants to be a part of this. Like miles has the secret longing. I love it. Okay. But here it can be a part of it sometimes. Yeah. But not now. So, um, so, so here's why I'm saying that I, once this is, I once had a cigarette, I did not intend for this to happen. And I was outside in, uh, where was, I think it was somewhere on the East coast during my year off theater school times. And I, my cherry of my cigarette landed in a garbage can and it knighted, the whole garbage can outdoors. And then I walked away. So my question is like, have you ever done something where you're like, that could totally, I walked away. I didn't know what to do it, where something gets bigger than you. And then you have to just either choose, I'm going to call nine one one, or I'm going to walk away.
Speaker 3: (14:47)
Oh, wow. I mean, I I'm sure I have first thing that came to mind, two things came to mind when you first said that, that related to me, dry driving while stoned, which I do not endorse, I do not condone. I should have never done it. But my defense is that I was 23 or something like 22. When I did that, the garbage can incident. The first time was when Russell and I drove to see you from Chicago to, um, to Massachusetts. Do you remember that? And we got really stoned and then drove. And we were driving through Pennsylvania, you know, when you go through Pennsylvania and it's just like a long, straight line kind of thing. And we got pulled over and I was super freaked out. Cause I think we had quite a bit of marijuana on deck there. And I actually don't remember why we got pulled over. I don't think it was for speeding. It might've been for going too slow.
Speaker 3: (16:01)
Oh my gosh, that's brilliant. And so when the officer came up to the window, I just threw a hail Mary pass, trying to think of something. And I said, you know, something, this state has the most beautiful flower beds on the, um, median. And as if this was a IM improbable scene in a movie, he said, Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned that that's called purple vetch. And we're very proud of it in the state of Pennsylvania. And we proceeded to talk about this plant, you know, meanwhile, I'm thinking about the real plant that I don't want him to talk about for a good seven minutes before he let us go. Yeah. Yeah. He never, you never remember like the crime that you or the infraction you committed. It was probably driving too slow. I think it was driving too slow on the freeway the other time who was also in my purple bash.
Speaker 3: (17:10)
Okay. Oh my God. Yeah. The time was also in my twenties. I went to visit a guy that I was friends with in high school. And man, this kid, I love this kid, great guy. Um, but he was squatting in a house. Um, he had moved there legally and paid the rent and then something happened to his landlord. They just disappeared. So he just kept staying there and not paying the rent. And the way that he made his living was he grew marijuana and inside of his house, he had, um, you know, a special hydroponic. So that actually meant that, um, the entire house was covered in mold black, black mold, because there were so much moisture. And I was like, Hey, um, Matt, um, your wall, your walls are like real black. I mean, it was like why there were white? Well, he's like, yeah, it's from the, you know, it's, it's from the hydroponics.
Speaker 3: (18:22)
And I'm like, yeah, I, I think that's pretty bad for your, for your lungs. And he, he was unconcerned. Anyway, I got very stone and I left and then I was driving the wrong way down a one-way street. And once again, I, I was pulled over and this is my white privilege speaking, you know, of course like I, if I had been, if I had a different skin tone, I would, in both of these cases, I probably would have been arrested. I should have been arrested. Yeah. Driving the wrong way down a one way street. Um, but I, I got led off. Other than that, I feel I am so annoyingly rule-bound and, and, and, and very concerned about being in trouble with authority. I, I, I, when I was six years old, I stole a chapstick. I have never stolen anything since then stolen anything since then.
Speaker 3: (19:23)
Um, I, I'm very afraid of committing crimes, so I probably have, I mean, I've, you know, not anymore, but like when I first met Aaron, he, he thought nothing of, um, walking out of a store with something and it was never like, I'm going to steal this. It was like, he went up to the line, it was too long. So he just walked out, wow. Something, something got missed in the cart and he's like, Oh, whatever, it's no big deal. And he doesn't do that anymore because I'm like, Oh no, Oh, no, sir, this is, this is not ethical. So I, my, my, my sense of that is like probably, Oh, overdetermined because of my narrative.
Speaker 2: (20:04)
Yeah. Oh yeah. See, my ne'er do well, father too, I think, but I might more like more like misadventures. Like I didn't plan on it. And then like, okay, one time in, in New York city, I was there for Thanksgiving and this is not a crime, but it's like a mishap that goes horribly wrong. So in New York city, I was visiting my friend and we were making a Turkey and, um, for Thanksgiving, and it is small small apartment, and it was a Turkey, one of those disposable, aluminum, Turkey things, Turkey, roasting pants. So, you know, it has a lot of juices and stuff. And so as we're pulling with Turkey out the bottom scrapes off of the pan, and it becomes a huge Inferno in the oven, grease fire, a grease fire. So we didn't know what to do. So we go to the hallway and get, if you're not supposed to do this, but we get the, there's a firehose in the hallway and we get the fire hose. And we sprayed the Turkey in the oven with the firehose, which doesn't put out the fire, but creates the mental amount of wetness and smoke, which then pulls, sets up the whole sprinkler system in a whole building, Oh God, we didn't know what to do. So we lacked the doors. We put the hose back, we'd lock the doors. We pretended like, no one was home. We put towels under the doors so that we can't breathe because it's so smoky, but we don't want people. Oh, the police came, it was a whole situation.
Speaker 3: (21:35)
Oh man, I have inadvertently triggered several fire alarms at my house due to not knowing the nuances of owning a chimney. And, you know, because I live, I never had a chimney before I grew up in California. No flu the flu dude. It was that it was very that. So, uh, yeah, one, the, one of the times that the, um, fire department came was, um, we had some people staying at our house, uh, people who stressed me out quite a lot. And they finally went to bed and I was like, all I want is just to make this little fire and sit by it and have my little moment of peace and repose. And sure enough, just this billowing smoke. And it wasn't because I didn't open the flu. It was for some other reason. Oh, it was, you know, you have to do this thing where you like crack the window. So you get the, yeah. It just didn't have like proper ventilation, proper ventilation.
Speaker 2: (22:42)
The fire department had to come.
Speaker 3: (22:44)
Yes. Ma'am yes. Ma'am. And these people who stressed me out were really stressing me out after that. And it turned it into a whole thing of like, are you okay? Is there something, you know, it's just, we don't need to get into that. But yeah, no, I, I, I, I wish I had a, a nicer, a better, like, more exciting answer to your question. I wish I had inadvertently committed a crime and just watched it all on my crimes were probably all interpersonal, you know, um, real, I, by the way, I, so often every time I'm editing one of these episodes, I'm listening to myself say something that I know I did not intend to sound rude. And it sounds so rude. Oh, Oh, okay. There's just been a number of times where, you know, how it happens a lot is somebody says our guests will be saying something and I'll have in mind the next question I want to ask, which may or may not be related to that. And I feel like I have to put a button on what they said, acknowledging, you know, but it just comes out sounding insincere. So like, if you're the guest and you say, yeah. And, and so that I was so frightened of my audition and, and, you know, my knees were shaking the whole time and then they'll kind of trail off and I'll say, um, yeah, it was really scary anyway, you know, and I never need it.
Speaker 3: (24:35)
Maybe it's not coming across that way. And also today on the podcast, we have Jason Peck. Jason is a founder and the co-artistic director of Thrones stone theater company in Ridgefield, Connecticut. He's also an actor and a director and a teacher who teaches theater to high school students. And he is not a graduate of the theater school, but he is a graduate of two other theater schools. So please enjoy our interview with Jason Peck. So your action. So we might as well start, congratulations, you survived theater school, you survived it twice. You went to two different theater schools, which I, you, I think you're the first person I've ever known. Who's done that
Speaker 6: (25:32)
Blend for punishment and went back for more.
Speaker 3: (25:35)
And you are the first person we're talking to, who didn't go to our theater school. So we're very, very curious to know about the ways in which, um, these conservatories are the same and which there are different, um, having listened to a couple of episodes, ha ha has anything struck you as being like, Oh, we didn't do it that way at, at USC because you went to USC and then you went to MFA in Florida, right?
Speaker 6: (25:59)
Yeah. So I got my BFA from university of Southern California and my MFA from FSU in Sarasota. I, you know, I think the thing that the, the, the thread that connects, uh, between me your experience and my experience is that I feel like there was, um, a lot of, um, crossing the boundaries, um, of, uh, of what is considered appropriate in terms of like contact with students and, um, power trips, head trips, um, and people using their, um, their power, um, in, in, in a situation where they're working with very young kids, 18, 19, 18, 19 year olds and using their power to really kind of, um, Lord lorded over them. So I think that's something that I, that I recognize that that happened, um, in my BFA program, not so much my MFA program, although I think that I, I was an older student in my MFA program. I was like 30 years old. So I think it was like a little bit, uh, older and wiser to the shenanigans that went on. Um, and didn't really care so much about pleasing my professors, which I think like when you're 18, 19 years old, it's all those about like, trying to get that Pat on the head for sure. Um, yeah.
Speaker 7: (27:11)
So did you, Oh, go ahead, bus. Well, I was just going to say, you know, to take it even back further, cause I'm, I'm super curious about, were you a child, uh, actor, were you a child actor?
Speaker 6: (27:23)
I was, I lived in Los Angeles, so, um, I did primarily commercials and stuff like that, but I, uh, when I was nine years old, I started taking acting lessons at a place called young actors space, which is kind of like, um, the young acting studio for a lot of like up-and-coming TV stars, like, you know, uh, uh, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Jake Gyllenhaal went there and, uh, this, uh, Frank Zappa's kid, Ahmet, Zappa went there and, um, uh, Leonardo DiCaprio and people like that. So I was with them when they were, when they were kids. I'm gonna think about it as my, my parents were very, very, very clear that they didn't want to schlep me from audition to audition. So it was more along the lines of like they recognized I was never really good in sports. I always joke that like the position I played when I played on the field was left out,
Speaker 7: (28:14)
I would be left. I would be left behind.
Speaker 6: (28:19)
Um, so I think my, my parents were just thrilled that I like actually gravitated towards something that I was actually halfway decent at. So they kind of like tried to move me in that direction. So since I was nine years old, I was in kind of like an acting studio environment,
Speaker 7: (28:33)
But your parents are not in the industry. So you had to really truly find that on your own. Did you find it just when you were nine or were you looking for it before that? Um, I think, yeah.
Speaker 6: (28:43)
What was the spark that kind of lit? It is, I was in fourth grade and I'm not going to Dysport as I said, and I got cast as the scarecrow in a Halloween play, and I felt really, really good about my work. And my parents were like, wow, this is something that he can do. And they just, basically at that point, just opened the yellow pages and, you know, found like an acting studio and they, you know, did some reference checks and stuff like that. And then I started going there and it was a pretty intense program where, cause I was, I was nine years old and I was going twice a week for three hours every evening. So it was fairly intense. It was fairly intense. Um, uh, but uh, my parents, they, they saw that I was thriving. So they basically kind of encouraged it more than anything. Um,
Speaker 7: (29:28)
That's unbelievable. Do you think, do, does that program still exist in, does it still work that in that same way? It does
Speaker 6: (29:35)
Because, uh, the, the kids that go there usually are kids that are either series or not on series. And basically they're not in school, they're either homeschooled or something like that. So those are the kind of kids that go there. It was hardcore.
Speaker 7: (29:52)
It is. I can't, I mean, the commitment, the commitment you had as a, as a nine-year-old my Lord, I was like wearing fluorescent colors and trying not to get, you know, picked out and I, you, you were like a pro. Wow.
Speaker 6: (30:07)
But for me it wasn't like, it didn't feel like, you know, I'm like, I'm a serious artist, you know, studying. It was more, it was like, it was like summer camp. It was like fun, you know, a good play pretend. So it didn't really feel like, you know, working my craft and like all those things, it felt, it felt very much like fun.
Speaker 4: (30:22)
It's interesting that you make your living now teaching younger people acting it's been in the high school setting most. Oh no, I guess it's also middle school, middle school and high school,
Speaker 6: (30:32)
Middle school, high school. And, uh, for three years I was a visiting artist at North Carolina state university. So I've taught at the college level as well.
Speaker 4: (30:40)
So, so one thing I did that very, a little, very little bit. I taught middle school drama and the whole time I was just like, I, I don't know how to teach these sixth graders acting like, I, I kinda just treated it like, okay. So we're just, I'm just going to teach them how to learn their lines and just do this recital. So like you, you've clearly learned at a young age about acting that probably influenced your ability to teach younger people how to do it, but like, what are some of your ins with the very young person? Cause we talk so much about how acting requires a real knowledge of yourself. And I just don't know how you do that with kids.
Speaker 6: (31:15)
Well, I mean, a lot of it has to do with, I mean, uh, permission to fail and giving themselves a safe space where they feel like they're can express themselves. I tell all my kids from like, you know, when they're in middle school, even high schoolers, that it's a safe space and it's a place free of judgment. And I start all of my classes where basically it's kind of like a kind of a cheesy thing where basically I imagine that we're unzipping a curtain, we opened the curtain, we stepped through and closed the curtain behind us. And basically what happens in this room is a safe space and a place of not, uh, I'm not judging. Um, and so, I mean, I don't think like I have some like magic potion that like, you know, I had to work with the kids, but I will say that one of the things that, um, uh, that, you know, more than anything, I think when you're talking about high school or high schoolers and middle schoolers, it's developing a level of trust where they feel like you're not judging them. And they feel like it's, it's, it's really a safe space, more than anything. So there's a lot of improvisational games and stuff like that. A lot of, um, some scene work, but more than anything it's about like being comfortable in your own skin, um, and learning kind of what makes you tick? I mean, I think that's kind of like, you know, my guiding principle, um, of, of, of trying to find something for kids that, where they feel like this is a place where they can express themselves without fear of jail.
Speaker 7: (32:27)
Wow. Well, I, so I have a question, so that sounds awesome to me. And I want to, I want you to come over and let's do that as, as a performer and a writer. I really, I'm going to send you a plane ticket, but the other thing I want to know is so taking that, and then when we went to theater school was like the opposite of that. I mean, I won't think of what your experience was like, but for me it was like, I didn't feel a no judgment zone. I felt a high judgment zone. So what happens between, so in a conservatory setting, like where does that go? Why does that go out the window? Or like, does anyone have any idea because what you're talking about sounds awesome. And what I experienced was awesome in different ways, but definitely was a judgment zone. So like what happens in the conservatory do you think?
Speaker 6: (33:17)
I think, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the way that they market themselves as being a professional program. So they're basically, there's a sense of like when you walk in, there's a sense of, I'm so privileged to be here. Like, you know, that there's a sense of like I'm honored. I had to audition, it was really intense competition. So I think we immediately walk in with a sense of trying to prove ourselves, trying to actually make our Mark. And I think, you know, at least for me, when I, when I went into a conservatory, it was, it was like really hammered in my head that it's all about connections and who, you know, so it was really about almost ingratiating myself with all of the teachers that I had in at school. And, um, I think more than anything, I mean, yes, I will say that the structure of the conservatories and the kind of like the, the hierarchy of the, you know, the city in your ivory tower definitely exists in, in colleges.
Speaker 6: (34:04)
But I think a lot of us with the mindset of people going in, of wanting to be professional and wanting to make, at least make your Mark, you know, I want to like make a difference. And especially in schools, I don't know about DePaul, but schools that cut that basically where there's like, you know, kind of like, okay, you know, who's gonna make it this year. So I think that immediately sets up this level of competition that doesn't exist in the middle school or high school situation because, you know, kids are just doing it for fun. You know, I would say that on, on the whole, um, I would say in my 12 years of teaching, I probably have only had seven or eight kids gone on to BFA programs. Um, and a lot of them just for other various reasons, their parents, like, there's no way my hugs, my kids going to go to theater school from, you know, that, you know, they have other interests. Uh, but so I think that kind of takes the pressure off of, from kids to like, you know, uh, wanting to, uh, impress and, and make, make your Mark. I think it'd be different if it was like a performing arts high school or something a little bit different in my situation, I think
Speaker 4: (35:07)
Definitely. So we talk a lot about, uh, the phenomenon of cults of personality that happens in conservatories and, you know, it's partly partially just the kind of person who's drawn to acting and, you know, they're, they, they tend to be people with big, interesting personalities. Did that same cult of personality exists at this training program when you were very young.
Speaker 6: (35:31)
Um, you mean at the, in, in the young actor space or in the, or in the hospice? Yes, absolutely. I mean, the, there already were some celebrity kids, so I think basically it was a sense of, uh, they were already with their PR agents and their publicity being able to try to actually promote their personality and their quirks and all their kind of like interesting things that make them them. Yeah, that was, that was a huge part. Yeah.
Speaker 4: (35:57)
But what about the teachers I'm w w was there a sort of this thing of like, cause what we had a lot at our school was, well, if you are in this acting teacher section, you're this kind of person, and if you're this, you know, you know, like th the people who had Rick were always better at improv and the people who had David were considered, you know, more serious about acting acting, did they try it? Was that sort of, uh, they had it
Speaker 6: (36:23)
At the enactor space, a kind of like a beginning and intermediate group. And then when you got really, when you either one of two things, whether you spend enough money with this school, or when you, um, or when you were good enough, they invited you to be part of their advanced masters. Um, so the advanced masterclass, it took me up, I was there for like a year and then they invited me to be part of it. And I felt like all honored and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, there was a big, huge personality, and it was one of those. It w it, it felt, it feels so weird talking about it was one of those acting studios. And, you know, I had a great time there, but as soon as the professor or the teacher walked in the room, everyone would stand up and applaud. The teacher would come into the room and then we would all sit down and then the person and the teacher would always, they would take their bow saying, thank you so much. I'm kind of like, you know, I'm honored to be here. And I think they would like put their hands in prayer position and bow their head. Thank you so much. And then the class would begin.
Speaker 4: (37:23)
You got enough to write this movie about nine year olds coming into were all the teachers, men?
Speaker 6: (37:30)
Uh, no, no. They, they were not, there were, there were, uh, one, there were two men in the restaurant, the restaurant women,
Speaker 4: (37:37)
You then were always on the path starting at nine. You probably started when you started thinking about college, you knew this is what you were going to do from very early age and is USC very film and TV focused, or where you really learning theater, we were learning.
Speaker 6: (37:53)
But I mean, the it's interesting because each school within the university is in charge of raising their own funds and the film and TV program, which has the Spielberg and the Lucas wing was like in these really shiny buildings. And the theater school was in the old tennis, uh, Tennessee locker room.
Speaker 7: (38:10)
I mean, that's like a perfect metaphor for, for everything first for everything. Right?
Speaker 6: (38:17)
Yeah. So, um, I mean, I think they've had, they, they they've done a good job for themselves in terms of raising funds now, but it was, it, it felt very much like we were, the bastard stepchild on, on, on campus is what it felt like a lot of the time, but it was, it was, it was theater based, it was theater base. I mean, the, one of the cool things about being there is because it had such a really film program is I made a lot of great connections with like, you know, film directors and writers and stuff like that. And like I would say when I graduated my first few, like real gigs, like professional gigs were with people that I met at SC that were then working in the, in, in the industry.
Speaker 4: (38:52)
Did you look at other conservatories or were you like I'm going to USC so that I can have the connections of that place to launch?
Speaker 6: (39:00)
My, my dad was, uh, very, very clear that if he was going to pay for a private school, it would have to be local. Uh, I actually, I was, I was in, I got, I got, I wanted to go to Carnegie Mellon and I got into Carnegie and I, and I was desperately pleaded with my dad, but he said, no. So, uh, it was one of my top choices, but it wasn't like the, the top top choice. Um, uh, yeah.
Speaker 4: (39:26)
And how did your experience of, uh, USC match up with what you thought it was going to be? Um, you know what I think,
Speaker 6: (39:35)
Well, when I got there, I was just so excited that I was having, when I would have an opportunity to just act nonstop like that. Like, you know, Oh, I didn't have to take a Spanish class. I didn't have to take all these classes. I could actually just focus on theater. That, that was, that was kind of like a huge buzz. That was just like, for the first few years, that was really, really exciting. I would say that, um, the th the biggest let down in, in school was the movement program. It really didn't have a movement program. And I started school when they had a brand new Dean, so there was a lot of like turnover and it felt very, it felt very, very disorganized and discombobulated. And one of the things that kind of, I guess, kind of rubbed me wrong was they believe that the first year is they do in all these conservatives is about breaking you down, really like, you know, just making you like, you know, just so crushingly feel about yourself, that like, you know, question and then they do that, so they can then build you up.
Speaker 6: (40:29)
So that was, that was a hard thing. I mean, that was a hard thing. Luckily, I had a teacher that actually liked me quite a bit. So I w whether kids were whipping boys or whipping girls, I was like, I was actually lauded as like, you know, do what Jason's doing. So that was, that was kind of cool, but it, but it felt to be, see other people on the other side of that, because it felt, it felt kind of wrong. So I was not expecting that because in my high school situation, I had a really beloved high school teacher when I was in high school, who was just all about like praise and love and hugging you tight and really lifting you up and lauding you. And it felt very, very, it was so different than what I was expecting in that regard. Did
Speaker 4: (41:05)
You guys have a cut system?
Speaker 6: (41:07)
There was not, there was not a cut system, but I will say that because it was, we started with 32, but, uh, by the time we got to my senior year, we were at 12 because the kids couldn't hack it. W w because they were so broken down or they were told by the teachers, this really isn't the path. And then they decided to kind of, to step back. I think probably the best experience had at, at when I was at school was honestly, we had something very, very active, independent student production program, where basically the kids would have to, you have to raise your own money, but the school would give you a theater and we would do plays. And it wasn't part of like the school season or anything, but we could raid their prop closet and we could raid the, the costume shop. And I would say my most meaningful, impactful experiences were those shows, um, shows where we had like a lot of autonomy. And I actually, we started a small theater company when I was, when I was there. And I don't know that to me, that was the, probably the biggest learning experience that I had about really learning that in order to make it in the business, you have to kind of make your own way.
Speaker 7: (42:14)
That's a great lesson. I mean, I wish we would. That's fantastic. Did you, what were your, some of your favorite roles while you were, do you remember in college?
Speaker 6: (42:22)
I do. So I'm probably the most meaningful one. We, um, Eric Bogosian, uh, wrote a play called suburbia, um, and it had just premiered at Lincoln center. And, uh, we got the rights after it, premier Lincoln center, and we performed it and it was a role called buff who was kinda like fun, fun part. And then we got word that Eric was going to be in town, on a book, on a book signing tour, and he came and saw the show. And after seeing our show, he pulled the rights from the Mark taper forum West coast premiere, and gave us money and raised money for us, our independent school production to be the West coast premiere to school and edit at a theater in Hollywood. So, um,
Speaker 7: (43:04)
It
Speaker 6: (43:04)
Was a really, it was a really cool, really cool experience. And it was, I think probably because, you know, like most schools you're playing, you know, you're, you're doing the classics and stuff like that. So you're playing, you know, you're having 18 year olds playing 45 year olds or 72 year olds, which is like, you know, always hard suburbia is about kids playing their own age. So I think that more than anything, that's what I latched onto is someone that I got it. I understood it. So that was, that was kind of fun. That was a fun role. Um, I think, uh, I did a production of American Buffalo, which was a lot of fun. Um, I did, uh, I would say a cherry orchard, so it was a really fun, fun role with the cherry orchard. I was a little pocket
Speaker 7: (43:46)
Eric would go through and keep workshopping that play, or was it, yeah,
Speaker 6: (43:50)
He did. He, he did, he actually did rewrites with us. He came out and he, and he did rewrites. And so it was kind of cool to have him write, write for you, which was kind of, it was kind of a cool, cool feeling. And then, um, the, the, the theater group, we called ourselves the [inaudible] theater company, uh, kind of a pretentious name, but the Namaz state theater company. And we, we did this West coast premiere of suburbia and Eric in order to raise money, he actually did, came out and did his one man show pounding nails in the floor with my forehead, for our theater, for a theater company and Ray and all the money that went, that he made for the production he gave to our theater.
Speaker 7: (44:26)
You know, I love hearing stories like that. That is fantastic. Uh,
Speaker 4: (44:32)
I saw you on Facebook, you're watching succession. He's really good in succession.
Speaker 6: (44:37)
That show's amazing. Yeah. He's very good. Did you keep in touch with him after I do? Yeah, we still, we still email each other back and forth. Yep.
Speaker 4: (44:44)
Fantastic. Cool. What happened between, um, the BFA and the MFA? So between the BFA and M
Speaker 6: (44:52)
FAI, I was auditioning a lot. I mean, I, I, I graduated, um, and we had our showcase, which is a disaster.
Speaker 4: (45:02)
Tell me more, I love hearing the showcase. It was the teacher that had this brilliant
Speaker 6: (45:07)
Idea that what the casting directors would want to see would be scenes from Hitchcock movies.
Speaker 4: (45:16)
So we were doing these melodramatic
Speaker 6: (45:19)
Attic Hitchcock scenes for agents and, and for, for, for obvious reasons, the agents were like, thank you. But no, no. You know, so, so, but,
Speaker 4: (45:32)
So I didn't, I didn't book an agent from that, but from suburbia
Speaker 6: (45:34)
The year before, which was my junior year, um, I had some, um, agents in representation come out. So I was actually signed my senior year of college and I was able, I had an agent after that and that was auditioning a lot and stuff like that. Um, doing, doing the whole film TV thing, um, you know, doing guest spots, my, probably my biggest claim to fame is I was on, um, the show called Roswell, which was on the WB network. I did like 22 guest spots on that. It was a recurring guest star on that. Um, so I was just doing that for a long time, just film and TV and trying to do theater here and there when I could, um, as much as I could, I tried to, like at that point, try to do at least one play a year, um, and try to just stay active as much as I can.
Speaker 6: (46:18)
I got burned out really quickly of doing that. And then in 2000, and I think six, I was like, this, I'm tired of, you know, whoring myself out for really, really boring parts and parts that don't interest me. And then, you know, holding, you know, reaching for that nugget of like a roll. And I decided, you know what, I'm stepping back from theater school and I'm going to, you know, what I really like crime, uh, uh, film and, and lawyer shows like law and order. So I'm gonna become a lawyer is what I'm gonna do. Um, and I, uh, I took, I took, I took the LSAT and I enrolled at a school in Florida to get my, a lot of it to get my JD. And the reason why I went to Florida, my wife, my wife's parents live in Florida. And I, and I know how all encompassing would be.
Speaker 6: (47:07)
And I wanted to have like a support system there. And while I was there, it became very obvious that like the theater bug was not like escape for me because I was like, you know, auditioning for stuff in Orlando and stuff like that. Like, while I was trying to study for, uh, for, for my, for my logs AMS, I was still doing theater. And, um, I did great. I made the, the honor council in law school and stuff like that, but probably biggest kicker. And the reason why I stepped back as while it was a part-time program, and I was working in a law office while I was there and to see the collusion that was happening between doctors and lawyers, like the massaging that was happening between those two things made me feel so gross that I'm like, there's no way I want to be part of this. So, um, I was in Florida and I said to myself, I got to go back into theater. And I applied to the only MFA program that was within 20 miles of my house. And that was the Oslow acting conservatory. And that's the only reason why I ended up there. It's a great school. The only reason why it's the only reason I ended up there was because it was close to my house that I was already at, in Florida getting my law degree from,
Speaker 4: (48:09)
I thought you were going to say, I thought you were gonna say what it would've been for me, which is I realized when I got into law school that I wanted to play a lawyer.
Speaker 6: (48:20)
That's a big part. Yes. Yeah. It's like, I want to play one on TV, but I don't want to be one, basically. It's the idea. Yeah.
Speaker 4: (48:24)
It's so boring. There's so much reading it's so it's so much reading and it's, it just it's Oh yeah.
Speaker 6: (48:32)
It's exhausting. It's mind numbing and really, really exhausting. Uh, you know, so I couldn't, I couldn't do it.
Speaker 4: (48:37)
It's meaningful that you grew up near Hollywood and you went to USC and, and you, and you just keep coming back to theater. Is it mostly because of what you're saying about the quality of the roles? I mean, you know, because there's very low stakes, money-wise in theater, you get to get to choose what you want to do more than you can in film and TV,
Speaker 6: (48:59)
The satisfaction of going from beginning to end to something, the feeling of taking an art, something on an arc. I mean, as you know, you guys are both writers and you work in TV and stuff. So, uh, you know, that like, you know, it shoots out of order usually. So the satisfaction of doing that, isn't nearly as satisfying. I think for me as doing a fee is a theater piece. And there's something about being in a lot with a live audience, doing something, having a communal experience, I think is very exciting. I mean, that's, I mean, I love film. I love movies and I enjoy acting and film and TV and stuff like that. But if I would be honest with myself, just in terms of what I derive the most satisfaction is always been staged. Always.
Speaker 7: (49:38)
I do feel that, um, in how does your master's program differ in terms of, you said you talked a little bit about how you felt like you were less trying to sort of please the people around you. Do you feel like you really started getting acting training when you were in your master's program? Or did you,
Speaker 4: (49:59)
Yeah,
Speaker 6: (49:59)
I would say that I would say, well, two things. One is, I was probably the oldest student in my MFA program, so I don't think everyone had the same mindset that I did. There were a lot of kids that were like 22, 23, and they still had that kind of, I really got to please kind of vibe that was going on, but I, yeah, I do. I do think, I think, um, I think here's the thing about acting, acting training. I think, I think that acting training is about giving voice and giving, uh, awareness to something that probably people already subconsciously do good actors, subconsciously know how to break down a text. They know how to do it. They don't, they don't, they maybe they don't know exactly how to actually articulate the methodology of how they got there. But what I think this, this MFA program was really helpful in is really developing a systematic approach to something that when I feel like there isn't a natural way in for me, I mean, I, you know, I feel like, you know, I, there are certain plays where I read them.
Speaker 6: (50:57)
Like, you know, I know I could play that. Like, I, I just, I just, I know it, but I think where the master's program was helpful for me is it would, it would take, maybe it would allow me to read a role and take a role that I maybe feel a little bit alienated from that. I don't feel connecting a connection to and find a way in with that. And, uh, are, are, I would say that, you know, when I was, um, when I was probably a younger actor, I always worked very, um, uh, uh, inside out trying to figure out the psychology of a character and then like, let it manifest itself in kind of like a, a physical form where the MFA program was helpful is the, uh, the freshmen of the freshmen, there was three years. The first year teacher was really big into Michael checkoff.
Speaker 6: (51:40)
It was a Michael check of technique, which is really about, you know, outside in and using your imagination. It really isn't about like, you know, emotional memory or, you know, tapping into that time. Your dog died to re you know, have some kind of emotional release is about using your imagination and actually creating some kind of physical embodiment of something to feed your inner life. And I think that's, that's been really, really helpful to me and to recognize, I think that, you know, as an artist and as an actor, the way we work and approach roles is always going to change what works from what worked for me when I was 18, 19 years old is not gonna work for me now that I'm, you know, 45, you know, it's, uh, you have to constantly reinvent yourself, figure out exactly what are the triggers, the things that basically motivate you and find a way into the material. And I think more than anything, the master's program was, uh, really good at, um, giving me kind of a eclectic buffet of different techniques and ways in, I think
Speaker 4: (52:38)
That's so cool. Well, so you know that I was a therapist and actually boss was two PAs. Uh, and I did a similar thing between, between undergrad and now, which is that we became therapist. So we're very curious, always about the psychology of why people go into acting, but also how people incorporate their lack of understanding or their, or their understanding of their own psychology into their acting process. And when you just described this thing about Michael Chekhov, which I wasn't familiar with, and you're talking about the outside in approach, that seems to be me to be not very psychologically minded. Does that mean that you Fe you prefer to take this, you prefer not to pull from within your own like psychological experiences?
Speaker 6: (53:26)
No. No. What I'm, what I'm saying is that, um, I was so psychological base that I, I, I sometimes didn't recognize that there was this whole other way of working in terms of like, you know, that there is your body and the way you actually, your, the way you carry yourself and the way you, like, how you say on direct, if you, you know, how people concave and sometimes look, it's it's, I think they both get the same. They go the same way, basically, you know, there's studies that show that if you smile, you know, all day, you're going to feel happy. Right, right, right. So it's about putting on some kind of physical manifestation that then triggers some kind of psychological and emotional release in yourself. So I, I do always approach a role, you know, asking myself what, what are the more things that motivate this character?
Speaker 6: (54:12)
What are my objectives? What are my intentions? What are the obstacles, the standard like ABCs of, you know, of theater, all I'm saying is that, um, I think I found a more healthy way to do it for myself. So I'm not, um, I'm not, when, when I'm, when I'm not beating myself up or racking myself into getting myself in such a head trip on, on these roles. Right. I feel like it's, I create unhealthy boundaries for myself and my wife, my wife tells me, I take my roles home with me usually. And I try not, I'm really trying consciously not to do that, to, to, to take that I can leave it at the door. I think more working from the outside in.
Speaker 7: (54:50)
I also think that there's there's um, and it goes back to theater school about breaking you down and making you a, a clean slate for building stuff. I think what, what you're saying is really important in that, um, it's not either, or like, I, I, I think I never, I think it was a terrible actor because I didn't incorporate both those things into my repertoire. I just didn't even, it was like a mishmash, but the way you're saying is very clear is that there are different ways of working and maybe some work better for different roles, but that, um, it doesn't have to be either, or like I have to strip myself and become a mess. Like we talk a lot about that on the show of like, when you're 18, 17, 18, 19, you think I have to be a mess to be an actor. I have to be a mess to be a good actor. It's just not true. And I think as we get older, like I'm seeing, you know, like your wife was saying, you bring roles home with you. It's just a tendency that we have, but it doesn't mean you have to be a mess. Like you can also balance your checkbook and be a good actor. Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 6: (55:55)
I, I totally know what you're saying. And, but, but to your point that, you know, it, every role is different and every human being is different and where you are in your life is going to be different. Like, you know, I'm not, I'm not one to berate Daniel Day Lewis in his very, you know, intense way of working where you have to build a log cabin in the woods to play, you know, John Proctor in the crucible. I'm not, I'm not breeding that it worked for him. He can't does beautiful, beautiful work. But I think, I think there, I guess what I'm saying is there are different ways in, and really at the end of the day, when you're teaching acting, that's all, you're teaching, finding a way in,
Speaker 4: (56:26)
Into the material.
Speaker 6: (56:27)
I mean, eventually if you're good enough and you're talented, your subconscious is going to take care of the rest really more than anything, it's about what is the thing that's going to unlock it
Speaker 4: (56:35)
For you. And I'm going to try not to be rate Daniel Day-Lewis either, but it's probably hard to be married to him. [inaudible] father, my father, I have the pleasure of getting to see you perform. Uh, recently, you know, a few years ago we did a play and, um, so boss doesn't know anything about it, but he played a ma is a great play it's called where all good Rapids go. And it's a, it's a play about a world in which when you age and you grow old and, and, and your body gives out, you turn into a rabbit and, and, and the gray beyond is, you know, this place where it's, where it's a lot of rabbits. So he had to transform into a rabbit. Yeah. Like full on buddy ears, like the whole thing. And, and, uh, I, so I got to see the, the results of it, which, I mean, you were amazing in that play truly. And I don't, I really don't say that to people. You were really doesn't. Uh, what was your process talking about outside, in, inside out? What was your process for that play? Uh,
Speaker 6: (57:52)
Probably a little bit of both. I mean, like, I, I think probably, you know, I had to, at the very beginning understand what it felt like to feel like your body is giving out and losing yourself. And I feel like as a 45 year old man who is getting heavier and, and, and, you know, my body is changing. I had to tap into that. What, what, what, what, what are the things I'm having to reconcile in myself that I'm not, I'm not 18 anymore? And my body's not doing what it wants, did what I, or at least what it, why would I want it to do? So I felt like that was a way in for me to kind of like understand that the psychology of that, as far as the rabbit bit, I, you know, I found that was very, very helpful in terms of creating my inner tempo and the inner rhythms of creating the hop and all those things really kind of fed the internal tempo of the piece.
Speaker 6: (58:40)
Um, and then, you know, it just, it, you know, more than anything, you know, I think acting is just about, you know, listening and responding to your, your scene partners. So I, I think, you know, the luckily, you know, we had a really junior, you were great in the room and we had some really, really great actors to, to play off of. And the, one of the great things about the actress that I was playing off, a lot of my scenes, she was a really, really intuitive actress who, uh, never gave the same performance twice. So it kind of forced you to always be on your toes to never get locked into the line, reading that work last night, you know, to like always allow it to be fresh, um, and stuff like that. Um, so I can't point to any one thing to say, this was my methodology, but will say that, like, it was a mixture of definitely psychology and finding a way, how does a rabbit move, you know?
Speaker 4: (59:28)
Cool. So we talked to somebody last week who was on that movie, in that movie, manque with David Fincher. And she told us that he did hundreds of takes. And we, I don't know, boss, I don't know actually how you felt about that. I felt like what the, like a hundreds of takes that actually, can I ask you, Jen? What, what was your thought about when she says,
Speaker 7: (59:53)
Cause I'm such a scaredy pants. I was like, Oh, that would be good. Because like, I feel like I don't start relaxing until the fifth take on set, but after a while it becomes, to me, it would feel like, um, what are we doing here? What is the really like, what are we trying to, what, tell me what we're doing, because I know after the hundredth take, I may not know what I'm saying anymore. Like it becomes maybe some people work really great like that, but I think it's a little excessive, but you know, I guess when you're famous and fancy, you could do whatever the hell you want. Apparently. Yeah,
Speaker 6: (01:00:33)
I, yeah. Oops. I, I definitely, uh, what I think is, I mean, I don't know what you were asking me, but my, my, my take on it is it feels a bit like psychological warfare. I mean, I will say that in terms of like probably what he wanted to do, who knows what the performance he was getting. So it's kind of hard to talk about it, like in that kind of vacuum, but it's, I imagine that he wanted to get to the point where he wanted the actors to feel discombobulate.
Speaker 7: (01:00:57)
Oh. So it was like, maybe it was a, it was like a technique or a trick of some kind
Speaker 6: (01:01:02)
Probably, but it's a up technique. I mean, it really is. I mean,
Speaker 4: (01:01:07)
I dunno. I just,
Speaker 6: (01:01:07)
I, I just think it's, it's so abusive and there's other ways there are other ways to kind of skin that cat. I think I really, I mean,
Speaker 4: (01:01:15)
And I think it comes across to me as that whole thing we were talking about of breaking you down, which by the way is what they do in cults. That is the way that they get people to buy into what you're doing in a cult. Is they right? But that doesn't, but like you say, there's more than one way to do it.
Speaker 7: (01:01:34)
What about your, your, you do your career now? Um, obviously you're a teacher, but you still, it sounds like you still act, do you act, um, for, do you audition for film and TV or are you solely a theater? Oh,
Speaker 6: (01:01:47)
I'm solely a theater guy just with the teaching load that I have it doesn't, it's impossible for me to actually, you know, audition and stuff like that. I mean, I just, I've recently moved down to Florida to be teaching down here. And my intention is once we're in post COVID to get an agent in the, in, in Orlando and probably start submitting stuff. One of the cool things that I think COVID has taught a lot of casting directors is that they don't need so many face-to-face audition. So it will give that it does give me the luxury. Now, if I want to, to get representation and submit my stuff that way I'm, I'm considering it. I'm considering it, but it's not something that's on my burning right now.
Speaker 7: (01:02:23)
Okay. And how did you make the transition for, from like the hustle of being a theater actor in a film, a TV actor into I'm going to start teaching? Was it practical? Was it, what, how did how'd you get there?
Speaker 6: (01:02:35)
Well, I was, uh, when I was in Los Angeles pursuing career as an actor, the screen actors Guild had a program called book pals, which is an acronym for performing artists for literacy in schools. And basically, uh, actors and artists would go into low, very depressed socioeconomic areas in Los Angeles and read stories and do a drama lesson to kids. And, uh, I felt a, I did it and I was hooked and I just really, really loved connecting with the kids that way. And it felt really, really kind of magical and very, very special. And so I knew when I was, uh, I knew that when I was applying to ma uh, um, uh, to my MFA program, that the goal was always, always, always on the flip side of this, these three years to teach, I would make that might, you know, now that I think about it, that probably played a huge part of why I didn't give a so much with the teachers thought about me, that it wasn't about trying to like, you know, have a career afterwards. It was always about getting my MFA so I could actually teach, I don't, I'm not teaching. I teach a private school, so I'm not credentialed. So the kind of like the terminal degree that I need to actually teach in an independent school is, is the MFA. So that's why, uh, that's why I pursued it.
Speaker 7: (01:03:48)
Interesting. That makes sense. It's like you had a, you had a purpose. See, that's the thing when we're like 17, my purpose was to please people that's it and not, and not be made fun of in some way or not be paved. Okay. But if you have a greater purpose, right? If your purpose is to be of service to kids and young adults using this degree, then who gives a, what Mr. Joe blow thinks of your, your, you know, Shakespeare technique or whatever, you're there to gather tools to be of service and to be the best teacher you can. I think that that's like such a freedom, such a blessing that you went to school with that
Speaker 6: (01:04:26)
And your knee, but that, that, that what you just said, the freedom, I think more than anything, like freedom, my work honestly felt like I was doing like, you know, on my arm. I think I was doing some pretty decent work in my graduate program, probably because I felt that freedom to not really care about what people thought about me there wasn't, I didn't feel like every performance was a make or break thing. You know, that it was, I was doing it because like, I like liked it. Like, it was fun. Like I experienced in my MFA program, what I had probably in my program, um, when I was at young actor space, that kind of just pure sheer passion. And I love it and I just love it. Yeah.
Speaker 7: (01:05:00)
And it makes your work better. It makes the work better. So I guess my question then to both of you is, is there a way to have, there are people, there are people we've talked to that go into their BFA and have that resilience and that's that sense of freedom, um, that, that, but most of us didn't in the BFA program. So it's like, how do we do that for kids? How do we say to a 17 year old, there is no judgment here, but also, and then allow them to do the best work because it doesn't seem to work that way in a conservatory. I don't know.
Speaker 6: (01:05:30)
No, no, you're right. I think probably what would be helpful is to, at the very, very beginning, like, I don't know, for me, at least I feel like maybe this wouldn't solve what you're talking about, but I feel what was severely lacking was an understanding of the way the actual entertainment and the, and the world really worked on the flip side of graduating. And I think if I would have had some like, kind of like education on like just, you know, life's knocks like the heart hard knocks, I felt like, I don't know. I think that would have like freed me up a little bit. I noticed that like, the kids that like thrived in my BFA program were trust fund kids, kids that basically didn't have to worry about. Like, you know, like, you know, I have to, I have to work and what, what, you know, all these things, kids that basically had the freedom to basically it was a trust fund to basically when they graduated, they know that the funds would be there for them. And I think,
Speaker 4: (01:06:18)
And another way yet another way that income inequality, ruins, this is society in general. Well, so what's occurring to me is something I think I probably talked about before, but this, for one thing, I think some part of theater training or acting training is hazing that teacher who is doing it, it was done to them and they feel like this is part of what. And I think that the way that people justify it to themselves as well, this is how they're going to have. This is how it's going to be when they're trying to get a job in the real world is that people are going to, I mean, I don't know this personally, but I've heard stories that, you know, you're in the room for a television or film roll, and people are just talking about you. Like, you're not there. She's too, this she's too, that she's not enough that she's none of that.
Speaker 4: (01:07:06)
Okay. So I get it, like, you're, you're trying to ignore the actor to that, but for one thing that you really can't, and you are somebody to like being humiliated and for another thing, in order to be able to access all of this good stuff that we want actors to be able to access, they have to feel safe and secure. So it's just backwards. And maybe they don't do it at, at these training programs anymore. I hope they don't, but that's how it was done for us. And it had the effected me of making me feel like I couldn't do anything, not that I was in nor to people rejecting me, but that like, I couldn't do it the right way, which was unhealthy.
Speaker 6: (01:07:45)
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's. It is sad. I mean, I feel like, you know, that, and here's the thing about like, you know, kids when they come in, you know, to a, a BFA program, like, look, everyone has that magical epiphany at different times. And, you know, I think it's unfair to a 17 or 18 year old kid who might not actually have a full grasp on their instrument or the way, or, or, or, or, or how to play a beat or all these things to basically cast them off and like use them as a, as a whipping boy or whipping child as an example of like what not to do, just because I feel like we all have those Epiphanes later in life. And I will say that like that there, there are kids in my program that, you know, when they first came in, they maybe, you know, quote unquote work didn't seem all that quote unquote good.
Speaker 6: (01:08:33)
But they had a magical epiphany their, their, their, their junior year that caused them to basically a light bulb to go off. And I do agree with you that I feel like so much of it is, um, unfair, and I don't know how to solve it. I wonder if it's different now with social media. I do wonder if, if the teacher being fee, uh, fearful of like, you know, any of their being videotaped, like might change the way they actually carry themselves in a room. That might be the one thing. And I, and in the area of me too, I, I wonder if that changed too. I mean, my, my wife has just had, had, had a miserable experience, um, in, in her BF, in our BFA, but that's where I met my wife, Elena. And, you know, she was actually abused by a teacher, like actually, you know, during, you know, movement exercises, you know, hands, you know, rubbing against her chest, all of those things in the name of like, you know, loosening your body, you know?
Speaker 6: (01:09:22)
And I just, I, I feel like, you know, kids there, their mind is still growing 18. They're they're kids. They're they're, they are children. They're 18 year old kids. I mean, yes, they're adults, but they're kids really. And I think it's, it's, it's really, really unfair to, um, to expect kids, to have the guts, to step back and say, you know what, this isn't right. You know, that's just, I mean, I think that's, that's, that's a lot for an 18 to ask for an 18 and 19 year old. I would hope Gina, I would hope then in social media times and that, you know, kids getting more and more, um, um, advocated, you know, advocating for themselves that basically they recognize the boundaries. So there may be willing to step up. But I don't know. I mean, I I've heard stories, you know, from, I had, I had a student that, you know, graduated from, um, when I, uh, a school I taught in Los Angeles seven years ago and he went to Julliard and this was only five years ago. And he, he described like just a, really, just a, an abusive, deep down you suck, you know, what are you thinking about, you know, uh, a women that would have
Speaker 7: (01:10:25)
Yeah, they did that at Carnegie Mellon as well. Yeah.
Speaker 6: (01:10:28)
That still goes on. It's it does still go on. And I think, you know, the thing about it is it's so unfortunate is that I feel like, you know, teachers are like, have a convenient way of kind of explaining it away, you know? Well, you know, they, we, we need someone to have a malleable body. So when they, when they grew up, when they, when they graduate, they're, they're able to play a lot of different roles and stuff like that. There's a way to kind of describe it away, but it's, it's so it's so abusive. And so it, it just, I mean, my wife, Elena, I mean, she probably, when she graduated, probably was paralyzed to go on audition for five or six, she didn't go in addition for five or six years now,
Speaker 7: (01:11:02)
PTSD. I mean, she, she, so I think I hope it's changing and I think it is slowly changing, but I am just, um, yeah, I, some P and some people, some people thrive in that environment. Some people, uh, compensate in different ways. I mean, everyone gets through. And I think part of the reason we started this podcast was to say like, what was that? You know, and how did we get through it? And the other thing that makes me really happy is to know that people like you are teaching that don't do that. So I'm really grateful that you're teaching, because
Speaker 4: (01:11:38)
I think you're right too about the whole social media thing, because recently I discovered a Instagram account. That's somebody who's in theater school at DePaul right now. And it's just these eviscerations of teachers and stuff like that. I don't know if the teachers know about it, maybe they do, maybe they don't. But yes, I think what you're describing about what the internet has brought out is a lot more accountability for people who can't rely on, you know, being in the shadows. And one thing that we're experiencing as we talk to people that we went to school with is just all of these different perspectives about what was happening at that time, allowing us to put the picture together more clearly. And I'm not saying that necessarily anybody who's going to school right now is automatically having a clear picture because of social media, but it probably helps to have a variety of ways. I mean, the only ways that we had to check in with each other about what was happening, if we even acknowledged to ourselves what was happening was with our, you know, with our friend groups in, in, in intimate moments. And even then it didn't necessarily always come out, especially if a person felt ashamed that something that was happening to them was their fault.
Speaker 7: (01:12:47)
Right. Or how do you deal with your students with competitiveness? How do you do that? I guess I'm wondering,
Speaker 6: (01:12:54)
Uh, I always, and I, and I feel weird about doing this, but I it's been really helpful. I always have open auditions in the room. I never call people in individually. And the reason why I do that is that when people get a role, they see, they deserve that role like that. And that is really that's, that's, that's, that's been very, very helpful. It's also been helpful to always, in terms of like, in a way, when I audition, I usually have a panel of someone I have I'll have a parent, I will have a faculty member. That's not involved with the theater and myself, and maybe the music or from doing a musical. So they don't feel like that they have to get in good with me or impress me to get the role because that they feel like it's, it's a kind of like, it's an even playing field.
Speaker 7: (01:13:40)
Wow. How did you come about to do that?
Speaker 6: (01:13:43)
Uh, because, because, because the first few years I was teaching, it was just me and I felt, I felt the very thing that you're describing. And I felt like people were, the kids were really trying to especially come fasting time, you know, either butter me up or they would just shut it would shut them down because they were so nervous about having to audition. So I feel like, you know, more than anything beyond the panel, it's really having kids be present and see each other work. That's been a huge, huge, like relief valve. That's a fantastic,
Speaker 7: (01:14:12)
Because I would also as a, as an, uh, an auditioner, um, um, I would feel so good to learn about other people's process and say, Oh, they make mistakes too, in their audition. Oh, they tripped over their words. Oh, Oh, that to me is, Oh, I wish I had had it.
Speaker 6: (01:14:33)
Yeah. There's, there's, there's none of that. Listening your ear against the door. There's none of the, kind of like, Oh, he was in there for 30 minutes. I was only there for 15. What, you know, what does that mean? You know, there's none, there's none of that, you know, it's, it's transparent. It's like, we're all in the room together and let's read it. And then usually I think, you know, usually after the audition, people know how the cast, this is going to shake out. They usually do, you know, and they're, and they are not really surprised. Um, you know, that's not to say as a teacher, I don't get, you know, deal with like, you know, uh, emails from parents. Is it little, a little Susie deserved the role of like that, but that's been, that's been less and less, um, as, as the years have gone on. So that's been
Speaker 4: (01:15:16)
That anybody who's listening to this who, who is in a position of casting, especially with kids, I think you should definitely use this method. I L I love that so much. So of course, I'm, in my mind, I'm wanting to tick off the boxes about similarities and differences with USC. So you mentioned you did showcase and was that just in LA or did you go to New York?
Speaker 6: (01:15:37)
No, that was just in Los Angeles Hitchcock show.
Speaker 4: (01:15:42)
And what about the, um, the casting? Was it like each term you auditioned for all of the directors that were, you know, and you got put into a casting pool and the teachers hammered it out amongst themselves and put up the castle
Speaker 6: (01:15:57)
The way, the way it worked is, um, you, you couldn't be in a main stage show until you were a junior. The freshmen and sophomores had their own show, which was more like a workshop that was very, very, very low production values there. Some very, very little, and then come your junior year. You became part of the casting pool for the entire school they would have on, but while you were juniors here, you would still have your school show. You were still have your class show, but you could also audition for the main stage show. If you were cast in the main stage show, you would not be cast in your class show. Um, so that's, that's how they did it. And, um, you, uh, they, I think like, you know, usually they would have for their main stage show, they would have two, two plays in the fall. Uh, two plays in the winter, two plays in the spring, and then they would do a musical on top of that. And then on top of that, there would be the, the class show. So there'd be, it was a pretty robust, you know, product. It was a pretty robust, you know, a season for production.
Speaker 4: (01:17:00)
You have to also do crew.
Speaker 6: (01:17:02)
Yeah, my friend. Yeah. My freshman year, we had to take a, um, a, uh, a stagecraft pass and I had to, you had, you had serve on the crew of a show. So, uh, I was, yeah, I was, I think I was assistant stage managing, which was actually really kind of cool. It was a really cool, it was a mind opening experience. Cause like, you know, when I was in high school, I was just doing, you know, acting, acting, acting. So it was kind of cool to see how the flip side work and gain crazy respect for, uh, all the people that are involved backstage. Yeah,
Speaker 4: (01:17:27)
For sure. And you said you were kind of the golden voice that you got a lot of the good parts, but I'm guessing you probably had friendships with people who weren't the golden kids. And like I, because I would have been like on your friend's side of things, what was it like for you? Did you feel guilty sometimes about getting all these great roles?
Speaker 6: (01:17:48)
Yeah, I did actually, because I think there was a lot of resentment that began to breed towards my junior senior year that basically, Oh, Jason's getting, Oh, surprise, surprise, Jason got the lead again, you know, so it, it definitely had a lot, there was also, there was definitely a lot of resentment that I think was, was bred from it. But, um, uh, I felt like, um, I was pretty humble about it at the time, so I didn't really kind of let it go to my learning, let it go to my head. Uh, there were people that, you know, I feel bad that like, you know, they're, you know, USC, you're paying for an education, like, you know, it's in a $45,000 a year to go to the school and their kids that basically were like, you know, search server with a champagne server in the back.
Speaker 6: (01:18:29)
And that was all the roles they had their entire in their entire four years there. And it was just really, it was, it was really unfortunate. It was really unfortunate. I mean, I guess they're trying to do, they try to emulate like, you know, the, the competitive, you know, competitiveness of the, of the business, but you know, I feel like, you know that, you know, you, you can only, I'm a firm believer, look, I'm an, I'm a theater teacher. I love teaching theater, but I'm a firm believer that you learn through experience. Right? You learn through doing roles by taking on roles and, you know, no amount of like laboratory discussion about it or doing scene work is going to like supplant, actually working on a roll and taking it from start to finish. Right. It was not fair to those kids. It was not
Speaker 7: (01:19:06)
Needed a chance, you know, to set them up for success is to give them a chance to work. Yeah. You know, things got to change, but they sound like they're starting. I mean, you're giving me hope. Thank gosh. And I'm not saying, you know, I don't really know you, but from what I'm hearing is like, at least there's look if I had a kid, which I don't think God, but if I did sending them to your school, I would feel okay if my kid said, I want to go to school. If they said, you know, I would say, okay, I, I, like, I know this teacher, I have this, this, my kid would be all right. You know, versus, Oh my gosh, you're going to be broken down. And then you're going to get, you know, an eating disorder. That's well,
Speaker 6: (01:19:48)
I tried to really do with my, with my theater programs is, you know, I tell my kids all the time that theater can not just be about entertainment. The theater is about provoking thought, inspiring change, starting conversations. And there's a certain level of, of altruism that's involved with being, you know, a theater artist. And I feel like, I don't know. I think there's something to be said, you know, I do fun stuff. You know, like I'll do the farces and stuff like that. But usually the stuff I tend to do in, you know, at, at the high school level tends to be a little bit kind of envelope pushing in terms of like challenging the material, you know, not really worrying about language and stuff like that. And, and more than anything, it's about really doing material that basically the kids can relate to. That is actually about something. And I think in terms of like, when I think about it now, in terms of comp competitiveness, I think there's something to be said about the kids feeling like they're doing something for the greater good that they're actually a conversation starter on campus that it's not just about entertainment. I don't know. I think a lot of my kids have bought into that. And, and I think, you know, I think that's a big part of why the PR the, the, the programs have kind of thrived at this.
Speaker 1: (01:20:49)
Awesome. So we are going to have to wrap up, but do you have, before we go, do you have anything you want to plug anything you want to plug for us?
Speaker 6: (01:20:58)
Um, well, in COVID, it's kind of hard, hard, kind of hard to plug. I mean, I, I, um, well, w w we're gonna, we haven't really officially announced yet with thrown stones. I'm not going to actually like, say, say what it is yet, but there will be something down the line in September that will be very, very exciting.
Speaker 1: (01:21:16)
And you can check it out@thronestone.org,
Speaker 6: (01:21:19)
Correct? Yes.
Speaker 1: (01:21:21)
I didn't go to our school and also is making a difference in the world. I survived theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plea cheat are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.
Intro: Boz comes into some unexpected money, the "prudent reserve", validation, martyrs, King Babies, passive aggression vs aggressive aggression, Mommy Dead and Dearest, Munchausen by proxy
Let Me Run This By You: the pervasive and dangerous bias against medication.
Interview: We talk to Rollo Romig about a terrible one year theatre school experience, being inspired by his high school teacher (who also taught Keegan-Michael Key and Kristin Bell) stumbling around to find your talents, "beware the psychic vultures", the cult of youth and the myth of early success as being more common than it really is, finding his truth as a writer, wading through positive feedback to find the truth, Drama Club as a repository for misfits, writing about India.
TRANSCRIPT:
Speaker 1 (00:00:08):
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
I'm Jen Bosworth -Ramirez
Gina Pulice.
and I'm Gina Pulice.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
Gina Pulice.
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous Yet?
New Speaker (00:00:30):
Network is only good today.
Gina Pulice (00:00:33):
Your network is always good in my mind. You know, it could be because we got 18 inches of snow last night. Well, total, there's a total of, um, Oh my God. 18 inches at midway airport, which I'm not going to. So I don't care, but we're all just going to be crushed under the weight of, of like just our lives. I think that's very accurate, but you know, but on a good note, so, um, we came into, this is so crazy how this happens and I sh I won't say their names, but, um, we, we came anyway, someone said to us, where are you? A relative? Said, where are you? Are you still in the Midwest? Are you in California? Because we are, have, um, we're stakeholders in a company. And they said, because we sent you a check for $18,000, do you, would you like to get it? Wait, wait, wait.
Jen Bosworth (00:01:32):
So, so miles, the life is very random. It's so random. So miles we have a stake in, uh, what I believe is a timber company is a timber it's timber. So we have timber stocks or something. I look remember how you don't know how the stock market works. I don't know how this works. There's trees somewhere that I own, which is really bad because who owns the trees, but we do. And, um, or parts of trees, I suppose we own a certain branches anyway. Um, so we just got some kind of dividends situation and I just fell on the bed when I heard. Cause that's wonderful. That's amazing. But what, like, it's something that was willing to you. Oh, so family is miles, nothing to do with me. This is all miles, which is interesting because my, my mom passed away obviously and she left me some dough.
Jen Bosworth (00:02:28):
And so I always thought my family was the, was the high end, mighty family. And now miles is stepping in to say, he said, you didn't marry so bad. Did you? I said, so does he? And he had no, no idea, no clue. Oh. And they couldn't find you cause they're trying to send it to California. Oh my God. So wait. So, so we have a check coming to, um, how exciting, it's exciting. We're going to put it in our prudent reserve, which is our savings. We call our savings per reserve. Okay. That like a financial
Gina Pulice (00:03:00):
Term or is that just what you guys like?
Jen Bosworth (00:03:02):
I think that's like a, uh, actually a 12 step term so that we use that for within the prudent reserve. So we're putting it in the prudent reserve.
Gina Pulice (00:03:10):
Uh, so that's not as fun as life you're going to get to go buy something that you want. Yeah.
Jen Bosworth (00:03:14):
I mean that, you know, if we run into trouble, if I don't, I mean, I'm going to get a gig, we're going to get it. There's going to be money soon. But if I don't, yeah,
Gina Pulice (00:03:23):
Yeah. Reserved, you got to have a prude and reserved. I like that term a prudent reserve. So does that also apply like interpersonally, like you're supposed to have a prudent reserve. Okay. It's like a boundaries sort of thing.
Jen Bosworth (00:03:35):
It's like boundaries and it's like, um, um, make you feel solvent and like it, you, you can take care of yourself, kind of like that you're independently taking care of yourself self.
Gina Pulice (00:03:47):
Okay. That makes so much sense because I think a lot of what drives people's internal panic and hysteria and makes them turn to things like alcohol and drugs is this out of control, feeling this, you know, this feeling of lack of safety. And it's obviously ironic because like there's nothing that the thing that makes you safe about taking drugs or drinking, but yeah. People, yeah. That's, I love that proof reserve.
Jen Bosworth (00:04:15):
The other thing I always think about too, with drugs and alcohol and stuff and, and whenever, so, so, uh, I, I would say that, you know, I have issues with anxiety and whenever I would smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, it would make it worse. And yet that's what I would turn to. And so it is sort of like maybe we're sabotaging or I was sabotaging to create a crisis so that I could actually deal with the root anxiety. I mean, that's what I think when I have a panic attack, like if I'm on a plane and I, and I hate to fly and I, and I, and I really go for it and give, and I can really participate in my own panic. And if I choose to really go for it and participate and have a full panic attack, the result is always that I have to care for myself and an extreme level. So I become very, like, it forces me all hands on deck internal resources to really care for myself, meaning self-talk meaning. So it's like, Oh, if I do that on purpose, like on purpose so that I can get the care, right?
Gina Pulice (00:05:18):
Because otherwise you feel like it's indulgent and you don't do,
Jen Bosworth (00:05:21):
And I don't deserve it. And I think that in my house, just really starting in psychological this morning, uh, it, my house, you had to be definitely ill to stay home from school. And you had to have a huge crisis in order for my mother and father, but mostly my mom to pay attention and to say, Oh, something's wrong,
Gina Pulice (00:05:43):
Dude. That I, as a parent, I can say, I understand why that happens. It's something you really have to like actively work against, because I noticed my kids doing that know that certain physical things are certain. And so like, the trick is always like, okay, so I, right now you're telling me this, so I don't want to invalidate it, but I know that the reason you're telling me this is because I haven't validated you in some other way and you have to like backtrack and it's, it's very hard to do. And, and yeah. And because also when people are pressed and busy and whatever, it's only the current crisis that takes the attention.
Jen Bosworth (00:06:23):
It's so true to look at, like in retrospect and within therapy to look at what my mom was doing. Like she was managing a whole household because my father was an apt. I mean, he, he tried, but he was so limited. So she was managing the household a full-time job, two children that were like the same age and she couldn't ask for help. Cause she was, she felt like this immigrant thing of like, no way you asked for help. So of course she's not going to be like,
Gina Pulice (00:06:50):
Hey, how's everybody doing? I'm checking it. Right. Right. So I always kind of wondered something about your parents' relationship. Your mother was so capable and such a Dewar. I mean, maybe, maybe that's the whole answer. Why? But like, why did she marry somebody who you've referred to, which I love this term as a King bait.
Jen Bosworth (00:07:12):
Yeah. So he, my dad was like the definition, especially since he was six, six, nine, and like 300 pounds. So like it just the King baby. So I think she married him to get out of her family originally to get out of her parents' house. Okay. And she saw him as a capable American seriously, like a capable white dude and said, Oh, but that was not who he was, but that's what she projected onto him. I don't think my father was ever like someone who pretended to be something he wasn't. I think she wanted to see that. And then what happened was she really got off on taking him less than my mom. They did this dance where she felt so great. And I noticed I do this with miles too. Like I feel so I can feel so self-righteous when I can do something faster or better than he can that he's, he's staring at me. That's hilarious.
Gina Pulice (00:08:06):
What's love miles with love,
Jen Bosworth (00:08:09):
But that, that I can do the same thing where it's like, no, I'm the doer I'm so capable. I'm so awesome. And, and that makes another person less than, and I think in order, my mom sort of felt like in order to feel worthy, she had to make him feel less than worthy
Gina Pulice (00:08:25):
Was so was she kind of a murder? Yeah.
Jen Bosworth (00:08:29):
My mother was the martyr of all martyrs. She was like a silent martyr though. So she would be like, you know, muttering under her breath about how she had to do everything. Um, muttering about how, Oh, which to me, someone who is passive aggressive, it, it triggers in me a rage, like no other rage.
Gina Pulice (00:08:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Just, just be out with it. Just yeah. Yeah.
Jen Bosworth (00:08:57):
Aggressive is holding people hostage. And I find that so, so intolerable
Gina Pulice (00:09:03):
And what's so crazy about it is the PR person, because I have a passive aggressive streak in me, the, when you're doing it, you feel that you, you convince yourself that you are prevent, you are, um, protecting somebody from your rage when really you're just doing it in the like sneakiest most underhanded and therefore the most hard to, um, it's hard to name it, right? Like if somebody comes and slaps you in the face, it's like, okay, well, and everybody saw you slapped me in the face. This is an act of rage. When somebody, uh, as my mother would say drinks at you or, or, or does a nice thing for you at you, you know, with, with resentment, it's harder. It's much harder to tease apart. Like, wait, why don't, if you're doing this nice thing for me, why does it feel so bad?
Jen Bosworth (00:09:55):
I had a roommate who was a Scorpio. So I have a Scorpio problem. Like we've talked about astrology last time. And I do notice that Scorpio women, I have a very hard time with, I don't know what it is, but it happened to be that in LA my sec, third roommate was a Scorpio woman who I found to be the most biting, passive, aggressive, cold person. Now I was not in a good place either, so I'm not, but I did not do well with her. She was so passive aggressive that she would do this. This is, and I still clearly have a lot of rage and I would love to let her have it. I never said anything I would decorate. And she would take my stuff down. And that's because she didn't like the way it looked, but she would say,
Gina Pulice (00:10:42):
Is that a passive?
Jen Bosworth (00:10:44):
Well, she would never say anything about it. So, so she, so I would put up a mirror that I got in Mexico and I would notice that it would be taken down and put on my bed. Oh, wow.
Gina Pulice (00:10:57):
Yeah. I feel like that's not that passive though. I kind of feel like the passive aggressive thing would be, I mean, yeah. It would have been more truthful for her to just say like, I really don't like your mirror, but I feel like I'm more passive aggressive thing would be like, if she threw it, threw her body into the wall so that the mirror fell down and said, uh, I'm so sorry about your mirror broke. Yeah. Maybe this is just me being like Ninja level pass.
Jen Bosworth (00:11:23):
That is really intense because that also can inflict harm on oneself too, in order to not have to be
Gina Pulice (00:11:31):
Well, what a better, what better way is to be passive aggressive than to inflict harm on to yourself?
Jen Bosworth (00:11:36):
It's just aggressive. But she would also, she told me about, she told me about her Pat, her last roommate that she had before, or a couple of roommates before me, where he would never do the dishes, so his dishes. So she stopped stacked them up and put them under his bed.
Gina Pulice (00:11:51):
Okay. Well see. Yeah. Okay. I get what you're saying. Yeah. It's it's maybe we need a third designation. That's like, um, um, yeah. Yes. Snaky aggression, surreptitious aggression,
Jen Bosworth (00:12:08):
Like, like, like, like attacking a GRA like snaky and, but biting. It was so she was, I got to say she was horrible. And when, when I have so much, Oh, I want to write her a letter so bad when I left, when my father died and I left LA and I, and I, I, she was like, I'm sorry, your dad died, but I need to know if you're going to pay rent for the, this was like a week after he died. And I said, I don't give a what you do. Here's the money for the rest of the year, like Lee meal, that kind of thing. And so anyway, the point is she was a Scorpio. And since then, I, I do have a I'm afraid of Scorpio women.
Gina Pulice (00:12:48):
Okay. How come you never did feel like you could write her a letter or I think I was afraid
Jen Bosworth (00:12:57):
That like, the problem was me and that like, if I had been stronger or not, um, I thought that I had done something terribly wrong because I go into this. Oh, I I'm so, so terrible kind of a thing. At least back then, you know, I was 30 and it was times and things were really bad with my family and stuff. So I don't know, but I I'm, if I ever run into her, it's going to be interesting. Cause she lives, she still lives in the same apartment. We lived in with her husband and, and um, her husband had hurt and their child. And so she's still there and I'm secretly hoping I run into her so I can just let her have it.
Gina Pulice (00:13:37):
So that way you want, you want to let her have it versus, okay. Yeah. I just want to let her, have it be like, what was wrong with you? Yes. So cool than a horrible to me. Like
Jen Bosworth (00:13:49):
If I would hang a Halloween decoration beads, she would
Gina Pulice (00:13:52):
Say, well, I might not have done it that
Jen Bosworth (00:13:54):
Way. I might have done it this way.
Gina Pulice (00:13:57):
Oh my God. And it probably, it probably didn't even track with like, she didn't actually like it, it was probably just anything that you, whatever put up there,
Jen Bosworth (00:14:06):
You wanted to live alone. So she needed to live alone and do her own thing. She didn't need a roommate. She, she hated, she hated all roommates, apparently so, but I, I anyway, uh,
Gina Pulice (00:14:16):
Financially. And so then she just sort of took it out on you. She acted
Jen Bosworth (00:14:20):
Thus the passive aggressive slash really snaky aggressive.
Gina Pulice (00:14:25):
Yeah. We've got to think about what that third term could be. Cause there is like a middle ground between, because the thing about really good meeting, artful, whatever passive aggression is, it can take a long time to realize. And it took me a lot. I have a person in my life is extremely passive aggressive and it, and what would happen for years is like this person is doing and saying things that seem like they should be positive, but it always has the effect of making me feel terrible.
Jen Bosworth (00:15:02):
That is a real, that is the art form at its finest. Yes you are. You are
Gina Pulice (00:15:06):
Right. Yes. And so it took a great number of years for me to be like, okay, I'm not crazy when I feel bad when this person does this, it's not because I like just don't want to accept anything from them or I don't want to find any good in them because I actually really liked finding the good in people. And I prefer to have relationships with people that, that are positive and friends it's and it's, it's it, you, you just know it when you feel it, you just get around a certain type of person and you're like, huh, this feeling is familiar. You're handing me a plate of cookies, but it feels like what you're saying is why don't you eat some more cookies fatso.
Jen Bosworth (00:15:49):
Yeah. Right, right. It's that is, I think that's, I mean that the people that are the most sort of, um, uh, adapt and really, um, good at that are borderline people, right. Or no narcissist or something. And I think this woman that was just straight up cold and mean, and she was more of a surgical strike, passive aggressive. And it, it was very clear when it happened. She was obvious about it. And what you're talking about is a real subtle sort of pathology of like,
Gina Pulice (00:16:24):
I'm talking about the kind of thing that you say to your friend, let me run this by you and you tell them and they go, well, that sounds, I mean, that sounds nice. That doesn't, or that, that sounds neutral. Even validate it. I spend so many years being like, it's me, it's just me. There's something wrong with me. I cannot accept this person's love. But it was like clockwork. Every time I interacted with this person, it was the same exact feeling of like you're or sometimes not. Sometimes the feeling would be like, Oh, okay. Actually what it would often be is I'd be dreading having an interaction and then I'd have the interaction and it would be lovely. And I'd say to myself, you, why what's wrong with you? Why, why have you been, you know, in your mind, like really be rating this person or criticizing them and that it would go on like that for a bit.
Gina Pulice (00:17:19):
And then it would turn and then I would start to feel bad again. And I'd be like, okay, this is that old familiar feeling. But then oftentimes I only had one other person in my life who, who saw what I saw. Um, but mostly people were like, she, and I think it's just, you know, I think it's just, I think this person is being, I think this person is trying to show you. They care. I think this, and it never felt that way. And I, it took, I'm going to say 20 to get vindicated for at least one other person to say, Oh yeah, you're right. That's that's, that's, that's not good. That's good. Wow. That's an expert that is a unlocked expert level path. And that's, that's why it's hard for me to identify a lot of things as passive because I'm like, Oh no, no, no, no. I know the master of this, what you're talking about is just an. Barely concealed.
Jen Bosworth (00:18:20):
Assholery right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That is crazy sick. Yeah. And that is some like slow poisoning when people slow poison people, you know, and true crime. I watch a lot of that. Blue Prussian is a Prussian. Blue is a, is a kind of, um, poison. I just watched a special on it, um, where it takes forever to kill someone, but it's debilitating and longterm. Oh. And you gotta be a special kind of person to kill someone that way.
Gina Pulice (00:18:50):
Did you, did you get into the mommy dead and dearest documentary? No. What does that O M G I don't know. I've never even heard of that. Okay. It's, it's a, it was a case of Munchhausen's by proxy. This woman was, um, had her daughter in a wheelchair, had her getting chemotherapy. This is the part that I don't really understand. I don't understand how this person convinced doctors, that her daughter had chemotherapy and needed radiation when she didn't have cancer. I think, I think that's what she did. She, if it wasn't that it was like up close, just a host of, I want to say like surgeries and medical interventions and told this daughter that she had, the starter believed that she couldn't walk. And I wish, I wish it was more fresh in my mind. I didn't make a movie about it with Patricia Arquette. I don't know. I saw a documentary at that. They might've made a movie about it with pressure. Um, because what ended up happening is the daughter. Um, I think, I think became online friends with a boy who became her boyfriend who came to visit her in real life. And, uh, and the two of them together figured out that this was all a lie and they killed each other.
Jen Bosworth (00:20:16):
You have it with Patricia Arquette is the mom. And I didn't see that either, but it's supposedly, so they kill her. They, they fist, yeah.
Gina Pulice (00:20:23):
She be in jail right now for that. She'd be in jail, but she feels she's figured it all out. This daughter she's figure her name is something like Rose growers or Rose or gypsy, gypsy Rose, gypsy Rose, which is another crazy thing about gypsy RoseLee. But anyway, uh, yeah, she's still in jail. She's going to get out and she's, and it's all happy. Oh, the heartbreak of all heartbreaks too, to find out that your mother
Jen Bosworth (00:20:53):
It's trying to kill you by making one, making you crazy.
Gina Pulice (00:20:57):
She could have special treatment because it's the reason that people do that is that they get special treatment for being the caregiver. She had all these like, uh, you know, Make-A-Wish foundation. They, they got to whatever, go behind the scenes at Disney or meet Brad Pitt or whatever it was. I mean, it's so sad. And so then you want to go back and be like, okay, but what happened to her that made her feel that this was the only way that she could
Jen Bosworth (00:21:26):
Get love? We need a real flashback scene in there. Yeah,
Gina Pulice (00:21:29):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That is, Oh yeah. Oh, you got to watch it. Mommy. Dead and dearest. It's called. I'm sure you could see it on YouTube. I will watch it. And you never watched the Paris Hilton one, right? Oh, she's too skinny. Yeah. Okay. She's too skinny. And then I watched the, uh, Britney Spears, right. It was only an hour long. Um, favorite Britain. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not totally, I don't I'm I'm not taking sides in that because we don't, we can't know what she was going through, you know, in terms of her mental health. I mean, both things could be true. She could be, uh, quite mental ill, mentally ill and need, uh, a conservator and her dad could be trying to cheat her out of money.
Jen Bosworth (00:22:18):
That's what I think went on. And I, that happened in Amy Winehouse, this case too, where
Gina Pulice (00:22:23):
That was a scum bucket and she was out of control. So I think,
Jen Bosworth (00:22:28):
And situation with Brittany as well. Now, now, is there sexism and weirdness involved? Yes. And is it like if, if she was a boy, would that have, I don't know, but I can definitely say that there were S I remember when she did the whole shave her head and beat a car with an umbrella and thinking to myself in LA, I lived in LA at the time, I think. And I was like, Oh, she's, she's very mentally ill.
Gina Pulice (00:22:50):
She's very mentally ill. There's, there's, there's, there's no question about it. And one of the things that I can't remember, actually, if it was in this documentary, but it made me think in any case of something I want to run by you. Well, one of the things that you hear people say in situations like that a lot is, and they'd just had a medicated to the gills and, you know, there's this aspersion that gets cast about taking medication. And it seems to extend even to people who are so obviously in great need of taking medication and there's this, um, group, uh, consciousness aware, or I guess it's not really consciousness, but it think it thinks it's group consciousness about taking meds.
Jen Bosworth (00:23:36):
It's just like the illusion. It's a group delusion
Gina Pulice (00:23:39):
That the goal in life, no matter what your problem is, is to not take meds. And at first I thought, okay, well, this is just because people are anti psychiatry, but it's something more than that because it's like, well, what, what is the problem with taking meds? Like, I can understand it if it's, you don't want to take too many meds. If you have liver problems, you know, it's hard on your liver to take meds, but like for your average person, what's the D I don't get what the downside is.
Jen Bosworth (00:24:08):
And there is, I totally agree. And there is, especially since being on a heart med, people are like, well, will you get off the meds? And I'm like, let me explain something to you. I don't give a. If I ever get off the meds, they're the mentor helping my heart even talking is if it's a weakness to be on a med. And it's like, well, if you lose enough weight, you can get off your blood pressure meds, which, okay, that's fine. But you may still be skinny as hell and have high blood pressure, so that you're on your med. And then what do you do then? You feel terrible that you, you know, that you tried everything and you still on the blood pressure medication, or like, I it's, there's such a judgment about medication. It's really,
Gina Pulice (00:24:48):
There is such a judgment about it. And, and, and, and I want to say like, okay, well, we know what it's like when there's no meds, that, that, that was like, you know, 150 years ago, and people just died. People like you who had an, an event or an incident or whatever, they just started, you know? And, and people probably didn't even know what, what, what the cause of death was right there. Our age right now, 45 was considered like old, old. Um, the other thing is like, I find that a lot of the people who are anti meds, um, are really pro supplements, stuff like this. And it's like, okay, but that, you're just taking something for your, that's the same thing that you say that you're against,
Jen Bosworth (00:25:34):
Because there's a, it must be a whole consumerism and a, a thing where supplements is good meds, bad. And like, supplements could kill you. My doctor was telling me that, like, you can overdose so easily on a lot of these supplements and some Chinese herbs too, that people are like, it's just a Chinese herb. And they're like, yeah, but you take it in mass quantities and your heart's going to stop. And it's an upper or whatever it is, herbs are. So I know, you know, people that refuse to take an ibuprofen, but medicate the hell out of themselves with melatonin and weed. Now you're mixing things, your, but they will say, but it's natural. I'm like you're going to die a natural death, which is a death from too much melatonin and too much leave. So is that what you want on your tombstone? She died a natural death of melatonin and weed,
Gina Pulice (00:26:23):
But that's what it is. It does seem to be a, like a contest. It must tie into this whole frontier and American pull yourself up. Like, I think that must be the bootstraps phenomenon that people say, well, you, you know, you're, you're only really winning at life. If you're healthy and, and sane and balanced, and you didn't have to take a pill.
Jen Bosworth (00:26:46):
Yeah. And you live to 104 and you, you without medication. And, you know, and, but then we, at the same time, we really applaud there's something in the American spirit, too, that applauds 104 year olds that say, Oh, I got this old by drinking and by drinking and smoking cigarettes and take and smoking cigars and drinking tequila. And then we're like, awesome,
Gina Pulice (00:27:09):
Dude, it's just genetics. I mean, that, that, you know, that that's like the answer, the answer to so many of these things is talking to people who, who have these wacko points of view. It's like, okay, but you don't understand science. So if you understood science, you wouldn't have this point of view, a and B, it's just genetics. You're fat, you're ugly. You have heart problems. You have, uh, diabetes, you have it. That's just your genetics. It's not your fault. You ain't born this way.
Jen Bosworth (00:27:39):
I, I really loved how they were, like I said, like, look, if I were really skinny, would this be happening? And they're like, probably, but you know, it can't help to lose weight because we should all be around, you know, America's too, too fat for our organs. But so, but they weren't shaming in any way. So I think doctors are starting to get it where it's like, the shame doesn't even work. And so they're like a lot of it's genetics. That's what he said. He was like, you know, your dad had arrhythmia, okay. Your mom was anxious and probably had, you know, issues of okay. You know? So anyway, that makes you feel better because when, once you start shaming yourself, nothing will change. You'll just go and eat the Popeye's chicken and be like F it
Gina Pulice (00:28:23):
That's right. And the day that I learned this is well before Amazon bought whole foods. But the day that I learned that the whole foods, CEO was some terrible piece of guy who doesn't really care about you. He just found a way to make a buck off of the wellness groupies. I was like, okay. Yeah, you don't buy into an ideology of the, anything that's a one size fits all. Like nobody should be on meds or nobody should be
Jen Bosworth (00:28:50):
[inaudible] organics all the time. I mean, I'm like, you know, I don't know. It's anytime you're right. It's an all or nothing situation you're in real trouble because when that fails, or when you are the exception to that, then what do you do when you've eaten perfectly your whole life? And you dropped out of a heart attack and people don't like that, it's a control thing. Right? It's so grueling. It's like, if you just do the right thing and eat the right thing and are skinny and you look the right way, you're going to just, everything's going to be fine. And that's just not the truth. We're, we're, we're all going to go. And some of us are going to go at re in really weird, horrible, scary ways. And some of us will be 104. And just like, you know,
Gina Pulice (00:29:31):
Yeah, I'm interested. Do you know about this, uh, football player who just died yesterday? Um, one of the, um, one of the Tampa Buccaneers died and, um, they're saying his, the cause of death is being investigated, but he died in a hotel. So we know what he did. He either owed deed or he killed himself. Right. And the second I read this, I thought, Oh, I know exactly what I mean. We'll see. But I felt one possible version of this story. He works his whole life. He trains as an athlete. He makes it into the NFL. He becomes a successful wide receiver. He makes lots of money. He was a great philanthropist. He was a great, he was 38 years old. So kind of old for the NFL. He was a great mentor to many young football players. I bet you, his life's ambition was to win the super bowl and he did it.
Gina Pulice (00:30:24):
And then he won the super bowl and he said, I still feel like a piece of. Yup. Yup. And he died in a Homewood suites in some town in Florida. So I hope, I hope if this was a suicide or an ODI. I hope we don't find later that people were encouraging him to get off his psych meds. Right. Right. Because that's what, that's where these stories usually end up going. It's not this happy ending that people try to get you to believe that your life is going to be better if you just do everything in the natural way. No. Right. And I, I think like we talk about on this podcast a lot where like, if you and I had quote, made it big as youngsters, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, I would have been like, Oh, so now I've been reinforced that all is good. And I should be happy at 24 and I'm skinny and happy. And why am I so miserable? And let me go sabotage my life and kill myself. Like, absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (00:31:26):
Absolutely. So, uh, depending on the podcast, we had the lovely Rollo. Romig originally from Detroit and he lives in New York city and he left the theater school and he became a brilliant writer. Maybe he always was, but now he writes for the New York magazine, the new Yorker he teaches. So please welcome the very talented Rollo Romig sounds familiar. Congratulations.
Gina Pulice (00:32:11):
You survived theater school And, and, and I don't know your story, but I remember it as being not great.
Speaker 4 (00:32:27):
Yeah.
Gina Pulice (00:32:28):
So tell us about it. I want to hear
Speaker 4 (00:32:30):
About, I had fun with Jen. Yes. She's great.
Rollo Romig (00:32:41):
I was getting out of my misery, uh, sooner rather than later that, um, you know, it's funny. I don't know if any, do any other theater contributors even do that anymore? Uh, no. That was odd. Even for DePaul to do it, those kinds of unusual right. Going into it, like, I don't think I even fully registered that going into it, that this was a pretty hardcore restriction, you know? Like how many people did they cut? Like ha ha half the guys are left.
Gina Pulice (00:33:17):
Well, I can't figure out, I can't totally narrow in on how many people were there on day one, but we graduated with like 22
Rollo Romig (00:33:25):
With like 22. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. I can't remember how many people started off there, but the, um, uh, maybe they cut half, like by the end or was there only a cut after the end of the first year or
Gina Pulice (00:33:38):
Second year. And actually we've talked to somebody who strangely did get cut after the third year.
Rollo Romig (00:33:49):
I didn't really take into account that reality. I just figured it, that kind of like 18 year old way. That's just like, eh, I got it. It'll be fine. I'm going to, I'm going to swing and it's going to be great. And, um, I never really thought through like, uh, at least even being mentally prepared for the fact that it might not work, you know, and also just like my whole attitude towards going to a conservatory was just like, eh, this is what I want to do. So I should go to the best school and the best school equal conservatory. And, uh, and I, and I, it just wasn't like, definitely was not a great considered choice, you know, in retrospect. Um, but, um, but yeah, so, but for me, it was like, it was clear from the beginning I was out of my league and I was, and I didn't want that to be true.
Rollo Romig (00:34:39):
And I kept hoping that I was wrong, but like, you know, I got into theater like almost by default because it was the first thing that I really enjoy doing. And that I seem like I was good at, um, both at the same time. And, uh, like I was good at math, but I hated math. I didn't. Um, and, uh, so, so that was just what I went for, but you know, my school, my high school had like 300 students in it. And so, yeah, I did really well in the high school I bar, you know, was a very like big fish in a small pond scenario. And so, but then on the other hand, the weird thing was like the drama teacher at my high school was really gung ho and she treated us like professionals and she treated us, like we were all going to go into the theater, even though it was weird, it was not performing arts school. It was just like your normal sort of like Catholic high school. But she was like in her own universe where she was like, no, when you're in my shows, you are at a performing arts.
Speaker 4 (00:35:49):
Wow. She was waiting for Guffman. She was Christopher guest.
Rollo Romig (00:35:56):
She was wonderful, you know, and she, and the funny thing is like, there were students from my school who became very successful, um, in this tiny school. So like a, a couple of years older than me, uh, was, uh, Keegan Michael Key.
Speaker 4 (00:36:09):
Oh.
Rollo Romig (00:36:12):
He said before that she was, and I knew him well at the time. And she said before that, uh, that, uh, I mean, he, he said before that she was like the formative influence, like she's the one who got, Uh, uh, music and drama teacher. And so, and he was really encouraging to me too, you know, like I remember like when he was already in drama school, I think at the university of Detroit, and I remember like visiting him there, he showed me around and he was great. And like, you know, he kind of made me, I don't want to blame him, but he did make me kind of feel like,
Speaker 4 (00:36:47):
Could do it.
Rollo Romig (00:36:55):
And also, uh, uh, I, um, uh, let's see a few years after, uh, maybe four years after me in the same high school as Kristen bell. Um,
Speaker 4 (00:37:06):
Yeah, I'm in this
Rollo Romig (00:37:07):
Tiny high school. I don't know her not to be Mariah Carey about it, but like I never, I just never met her cause she's like younger enough that I, but, um, uh, but my sister, my younger sister knew her,
Speaker 4 (00:37:23):
But
Rollo Romig (00:37:23):
Anyway, so I went and man, she made it, so this teacher made it so exciting to like, um, you know, she made us feel like what we were doing was the most important thing in the world. And she had really high standards. Like I remember the first show that I was in with her when I was a sophomore was South Pacific. And it was like the night before we opened. And she was really unhappy with the level of focus coming from the chorus. She was enraged about it. And she started screaming. We were in the, like in the gym, which had been made in the auditorium, you know, it was all set up with folding chairs and everything already. We were ready to go and she just like lost it. And she just started screaming at us in the gym, like screaming at the chorus.
Speaker 4 (00:38:13):
So like, what are you doing? The show starts tomorrow.
Rollo Romig (00:38:17):
And while she's yelling, she's picking
Speaker 4 (00:38:20):
Up metal over her head and just shucking them across the room or they're flying into other folding chairs
Rollo Romig (00:38:32):
If he does this over and over. And like, yeah. And I remember some of the parents were like, not happy about this.
Speaker 4 (00:38:38):
He was not around. I was delighted. I was like, wow, this is showbiz.
Rollo Romig (00:38:53):
So, yeah. And, um, you know, I remember I auditioned for a couple of places. It's funny. I only, I only audition it like, uh, Midwestern schools. I was like, the coasts are kind of scary. That sounds too intense. I never would have imagined that I actually live in New York city now, but, um, uh, I was just a shy, Midwestern farm boy. Uh, no I'm from I'm from Detroit actually. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:39:20):
But, uh, uh, but yeah,
Rollo Romig (00:39:23):
The melon and I didn't get in there and then I auditioned for, um, uh, for DePaul and I did get it and then like, you know, right from the beginning, like it also threw me for a loop big time that, that first year is pretty much all improvisation, you know, like that, and that was another thing like I should have maybe found out before I am, like, what is, what is this, what is this school's particular approach? You know? But it didn't even occur to me, uh, to like try to find something like, I mean, did, did that surprise either of you that, that was kind of the approach?
Speaker 4 (00:39:59):
Yeah. I never, I didn't even know what improv was. I didn't know what school I was going to. I don't even know how I ended up at DuPont to figure out how that happened. We talk about it a lot and I more than just showed up and called it.
Rollo Romig (00:40:21):
We may never know. We may never know how we ended up there. Um, no matter how much we search, but the, um, uh, and I
Speaker 4 (00:40:29):
Was realizing you are ready. You are ready for improv.
Rollo Romig (00:40:32):
Oh my God. I'd never even thought about improv. I'd never done any form of improvisation in my life. And I was just like, it just really, I was not ready for it. I just wasn't. I was only used to ever working with a text and I still think that that's just like that. I was the kind of actor that, that was my strongest suit is working with the text. And so like maybe I would've done a little better, at least if I'd been to a school where that was the approach, but the, uh, but anyway, that's not where I went. And, uh, I also, I definitely feel in retrospect, like it was the wrong, uh, career move for me to go into acting that it was a premature decision and I would have been better off going to a school. I don't regret studying acting.
Rollo Romig (00:41:13):
I just wish I would have gone to a school where there wasn't a conservatory where I would've been exposed to a broader range of things, you know? Um, and you know, theater is still a part of my life. It's, uh, you know, I haven't like turned my back on it. I mean, I'll get back into that, but like, um, but you know, I just remember it like a really hard time. I thought the classes were, I just like was, I felt constantly, like I had no idea what I was doing. And then I was doing it badly, um, right from the first week. And, um, uh, and I also kind of, I, I want to, I want to ask you too. I kind of vaguely remember the atmosphere as being, um, really kind of hard, like even among our peers of it being really kind of like, um, cutthroat and not very nice, but I can't even, I can't remember any specifics, so I don't know if that's actually true. I remember like, like my best friend at the time, Mike Smith, who was also in the program and I think he left voluntarily after the first year. I don't think he was caught. Do you remember if Mike was cut?
Rollo Romig (00:42:20):
Yeah. And, uh, he got to lead the cool way, right? It's like, no, you don't fire me. I'll fire you. Um, but, uh, uh, but yeah, he, I remember he and I like bonding over that and complaining to each other a lot about how, like, uh, just what, just that it was like a caddy and like hyper competitive atmosphere. But I actually don't remember any specifics about that. So maybe it's not even true. Wait, what do you, what do you two think?
Gina Pulice (00:42:48):
Well, I think that the warning system member, that whole warning system that creates who's on warning and who's not on warning creates a whole level of like, who's good. And who's not, I think, um, where you were placed. Um, I, I just, yes, the answer is, I agree with you that there was an unspoken, um, competition that was inherent in the program that did, did not serve me. Well, that's what I've seen. Um, yeah. So a few things, I mean, one thing that you didn't get to experience, cause you just only did the first year when you started doing shows one person in particular who I won't name was constantly going around to people being like, so how's it going? How's your show going? Oh, is it going bad? It's going bad. And that, uh, prompted Don Elko to teach us his favorite saying which is be aware the psychic vultures.
Gina Pulice (00:43:54):
Yes. Yes. And he taught us to say, whenever anybody asked you when you were outside smoking or having your lunch on the pit, is that what it's called the pit coming along, coming along. That was, that's what you were supposed to say. Whenever anybody asks you how your show is going. And the other thing that I remember is, um, you know, I just, we had to do our final projects in front of all of the teachers and it really just, it became this thing of like right before, or right before additions are right. When your show is going up, it just, you would just find yourself suddenly not feeling connected to your classmates. Like there was this day where we were doing this thing and rolling around on the floor together and all feeling good and happy. And then there was the next day when we were out for the same role. And it was like, there was no relationship to those two.
Jen Bosworth (00:44:56):
Totally. It was disconnected. It was like, we're all supposed to be an ensemble until it comes to being picked, choose to loved. And then we're cutthroat. I remember just very quickly, I hated audition so much that I had a fantasy that I would get hit by a car on the way to understand
Rollo Romig (00:45:16):
That's it that's the best case scenario is you get hit by a company.
Gina Pulice (00:45:21):
Oh my God, awful. Wait. Um, we had somebody tell a story about you and Oh God, let's see if you remember terrifying. Well, the story doesn't feature you as much as Peyton, you were doing an improv with Peyton Take told us the story paint was as his, he was Zeus. He was playing the character. He said he was just running around the stage. Lightning bolts. You were, what was Rollo doing? Rolla was statue
Jen Bosworth (00:46:13):
Affected by, by Payton's lightning bolts. And we're were trying to understand what he was doing. And it was just like madness, but take tells it as like, it was his moment of being like, what the have I gotten myself? What am I I want? And Rollo and Peyton are Greek gods. And it went on. He said it went on for like half an hour.
Rollo Romig (00:46:37):
I bet I don't remember that one. But I imagine that being a statue was probably one of my, one of my strongest stronger. Um, wow. That's funny. But yeah, so potato, it was more like, what the hell is this place more than like, yeah, God, I remember that's interesting what you say about like the app that, that atmosphere among the students, because of course we were mostly nice to each other, but I, that rings a bell, even for me, even though I wasn't in the shows later, but just like this feeling of like superficially people are really nice to each other, but like not fully there for, yeah. I mean with obviously with exceptions, but like, but just the overall atmosphere place. I remember this is funny. I remember, um, there was one guy I don't remember his name or anything. He was older than us, like a couple of years probably.
Rollo Romig (00:47:27):
And I remember he was just a total bully to me. I don't even remember how this came up. Like just that like how we even happen interact. But I think just like in the, in the, uh, in the building, you know, and I remember he, I don't remember the specifics, but I remember he would just routinely say really mean to me, you know, and that, uh, and it was horrible, you know? And then a couple of years later, you know, after I left the school, I remember I was waiting for the train on that Al and it was on one of those L platforms where like the tracks are in between and there's a platform the other side. And he was on the platform the other side. And I remember him calling out to me and yell, he had to yell cause he was far away, you know, and yelling,
Speaker 4 (00:48:09):
Okay, ma'am Hey God. I said, bully, what's he going to say? And he was like, Hey, I'm really sorry. I was so mean to you. I was going through a really hard time. I think you're totally fine. That'd be
Rollo Romig (00:48:40):
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (00:48:43):
We should kind of near a new type of relationship therapy. That's based on that so that you have to be standing on opposite sides of the platform so that it's it's, it's like enough distance. So you, you feel safe right. Close enough. So you can really be there
Rollo Romig (00:49:01):
The distance, you know, but then it was also extremely public, which was, which was also gratifying
Speaker 4 (00:49:09):
Therapy. Yeah.
Rollo Romig (00:49:13):
I realized that you were a bully, uh, in an earlier stage of life. That's, it's actually a, an excellent way of handling it. Uh, I thought it was, it totally solved that problem for me. Um,
Speaker 4 (00:49:25):
So when did it start to fall apart for you in that first year? Well, I mean, yeah,
Rollo Romig (00:49:30):
It's clear that I was not doing well and I don't remember the specifics. I'm sure I got warned. Definitely. Um, and, and I, you know, I just remember like Rick Murphy smirking at me a lot in a, in a way that just clearly was not a good sign. Um, and, um, uh, and then, but yet, you know, I knew I was doing bad. I, I, I w I was miserable there. And yet when I got the letter saying I was cut, I just like, couldn't take it in. I remember that moment really vividly just like opening that letter. And I remember reading it and it was written, it was a short letter and it was written in very plain English. I remember reading it and thinking that I had gotten accepted to continue because I, my brain couldn't process it. I remember my roommates saying like, no, dude, you got cut.
Rollo Romig (00:50:17):
And I was like, Oh, um, uh, and, and I just, like, I had no plan B, you know, um, cause it's partly just being that age too. You, you don't have plan BS usually. Uh, and, uh, God, I remember, you know, um, so I went, you know, I went on to go to film school at Columbia college and, you know, kind of for a similar reason as to why I went to acting school, you know, I liked to movies. It was just like the Vegas reason, you know? And, um, uh, so I went to film school, but then, um, and graduated, but I conspicuously like never made films. So it clearly wasn't, it was not the, uh, the thing we're interested in filmmaking. I just, I also just felt like I w I just, it just didn't really click for me. I just didn't feel like I had a natural aptitude for it, you know?
Rollo Romig (00:51:12):
And, um, uh, and that went on for a long time where I felt like I kept trying things out and just like, felt like I'm just kind of crap at this. And like, I remember like reaching a point, like when I was in my late twenties and just feeling like I tried a lot of things and like, nothing was really like, I just wasn't really good at anything. Just feeling like, wow, maybe this is my life. Maybe I'm just like a permanent sidekick for the rest of my life. And I just won't really end up being good at anything. Um, and, uh, and it was a real blow because like, I mean, getting caught was like, I mean, no bones about it. It was a huge blow. And I was like, kind of just, I was very, you know, I was definitely depressed for a long time.
Rollo Romig (00:51:57):
And, uh, and, and I think part of the reason I didn't do well in the rest of the college was just like, I don't think I fully recognize that this was the reason at the time, because I was kind of in denial at like, what a big, what a big blow that was. And, and I didn't get like any therapy or anything. Um, but I did a lot of drugs, um, like, you know, uh, uh, like all through, and I don't want to blame it just on like getting cut from theater school. It was also just being young and dumb, but I remember like through, you know, what, like when I was like a teenager, I was very straight edge and kind of a goody-goody and like, AF like for the rest of my college years and into my twenties, like, I remember like if there was a drug, I was there, like, if anything, to like, you had something to snort or a pill to pop, I was on it.
Rollo Romig (00:52:46):
Like, I remember finding drugs after a party and just being like, I don't know what this is, but here we go. And just like, so like, like self-destructive definitely, and I, in retrospect, I feel sure that there's like a connection between that behavior and, um, and just like the end is blow, you know, that I never really processed. Um, uh, so it was rough, you know, because like, you know, I mean, acting is such a rough gig in general. I mean, as you obviously know that, it's just like, it's so personal and it's so like, you are just putting yourself out there. Everyone knows this, but like, you know, uh, but it's like, it's like a hard fall. Um, and I also don't, you know, this is how I interpret it in retrospect, but I'm also like suspicious of how I remember things too, because like, and kind of the stories that I tell myself about how things went down, because like, like one thing I remember is that like, uh, the thing I always remembered was that I didn't know what I wanted to do after getting cut from the program.
Rollo Romig (00:53:54):
Um, I wanted to take a year off from school just to figure things out, but that my parents pressured me to continue college. Cause I want, cause they wanted me to just get it done. And, and this was what I believed had happened for many years. And then like, just a few years ago, I came across like a letter that my father had written me at that time. And, um, uh, and he was like, well, you know, like your mother and I keep telling you, we really wish you'd take a year off to figure things out, but you seem determined to continue with school. So, you know, there's nothing we can do about it. I was like, what? Oh, so the exact opposite of the story that I told myself, I just blaming my father all this time or like, you know, but it was actually me. And it's like, but to, because of that, I thought it was such a great lesson though. Just like, wow. Like I was like, Jesus, how many other things do I, am I palliative went down a certain way and they, and they, and actually maybe the exact opposite is the truth.
Jen Bosworth (00:54:53):
It's fascinating because we talk about this. There is a few States that happens. You're not alone in this where at least for me, I had, I have thought for years that certain things happen. And then especially during that period between the period of like eight, 16 years old and 30 years old, where I have told myself stories about the way went down, starting at DePaul, that I don't think are true, but it felt true at the time. And that's the actual real thing, but it's a trip to look back and be like, wait, what happened? I, Oh my gosh. So it's, it's an interesting thing. It's a phenomenon.
Gina Pulice (00:55:37):
Yeah. Tell me Gina. Yeah. Oh, well, something that occurs to me, that's really interesting about your story is, and you can correct me if I'm getting this wrong. But my impression from what you're saying is, you know, in high school, you stumbled into this drama program with this very charismatic teacher, which caused you to stumble in to the decision to go to a conservatory, which caused you to get cut and then stumble into going to film school. But we're, we're burying the lead here. You're a very successful writer and writing is a set of skills for which you cannot be anything but intentional and aware, you know what I'm saying? So you made a real left turn somewhere.
Rollo Romig (00:56:28):
I did well, I'll tell you how that came about. You know, like I was, um, uh, I was, like I said, like when I was in my late twenties, I, I was starting to think like, maybe I won't be good at anything ever. And then just kind of, you know, I, out of the blue, I remember I was reading the New York times magazine and I was like, wow, this would be really cool to like to do this for a living, like write articles for this magazine. And, um, uh, and I just started thinking about like, and I had also started traveling a little more like world travel. I was thinking like, man, this is the best, how can I, how can I get paid to do this? And those kinds of things came together and like reading the New York times magazine and like the new Yorker magazine and, and thinking about traveling and thinking like, wow, maybe journalism is a way to do it.
Rollo Romig (00:57:17):
But the thing is I hadn't been doing any writing at all. Like, like I, you know, I grew up in a very bookish household. Like my father worked for a publishing company. My mother was a school librarian, but I, I did not have any practice of writing. And so, but, but I decided like, you know, I'm going to give this a shot. I'm going to try journalism. But I felt like since I was coming to it very late, I would be starting journalism school. I was like, I didn't start journalism school till I was after 30. I, but I felt like I should go to journalism, graduate school to kind of speed up the process and get a jumpstart, you know, in grads, the grad school program, just like a year and a half long, um, because I was coming to it so late, you know, and, uh, but I went into journalism school, never having published anything and really having no serious writing practice.
Rollo Romig (00:58:05):
So sort of way, like it was kind of, I didn't learn much from the theater school experience. Cause again, I just leaped into something without really knowing what I was doing. But this time it just really, it was the opposite in every way where I completely thrived in journalism school. And I was like, uh, like at the end of it, they gave me an award for best students in the class. And they said, and the teacher said never has there been such a unanimous decision among the teachers of who should get this award? And I mentioned that to brag, but just to like, say like, this was just such the opposite of the theater school experience, you know? And so it was like, wow, okay. I actually am good at something finally, you know, and then, you know, and it takes, and in a funny way, like, you know, journalism is kind of similar, like similarly difficult, uh, profession, uh, as acting cause like, you know, I'm a freelancer still and you're, you know, it's, you're always hustling.
Rollo Romig (00:59:05):
You're um, uh, you're always trying to get gigs. You're usually getting rejected. Um, you're, um, it's very precarious. It's highly competitive. You're putting like your very personal self on the line with everything you do. So it's actually really similar in a lot ways, but then I, I found like, because I feel like I'm just like competent at it. I've never felt freaked out about that. I've always felt like I will continue to make this work, you know? Uh, so, and I, I think that's such an important thing that like, I mean, we have such, like, I feel like that's not at all unusual that it takes people until their thirties, even later to figure out what is their thing and what they're going to do with their life, if ever if ever. Absolutely. And, and you don't even have to have like a thing that, you know, you know what I mean?
Rollo Romig (00:59:53):
It's like, but, but like, and maybe your thing is like, and maybe your thing isn't even like a career thing, but if some other aspect of life, that's just like, what your, what makes it, what makes it good for you? You know? And, um, uh, and you know, th there's such like a cult of youth in, in, uh, in our culture, in such a cult of, of, of professional success in this really like narrow sense that like, um, uh, you know, there's so much emphasis on early success. It's not how it typically happens. I mean, the reason why they have the reason why early success gets lauded so much is because it's, it's exceptional, you know, but we come with the message that so many of us taken, especially I think young people take away from that is that, uh, early success is the only right way to do it, or else you're just bad or slow, you know?
Rollo Romig (01:00:55):
And what I've learned from like working in news is that what gets, what gets the stories that gets published? Are they unusual ones? And then we come to think that they are typical because they get published. You know, it's actually the opposite. They get published because they're news because they're unusual, you know, and that, like, it's just as often, it's amazing how many, like writers I admire also started later than I did, you know, uh, at, at, at writing and doing it professionally. Um, uh, and I'm sure it's true in many professions. It doesn't stop for every profession. That's not true of gymnasts, but like, you know, but, uh, Yeah, it's hard to be a child star.
Gina Pulice (01:01:40):
I'm still hoping to be,
Rollo Romig (01:01:44):
I think you can do it. You've got that button nose and just those rosy red cheeks.
Gina Pulice (01:01:53):
Well, the two people who are coming to writing very late in life, this whole venture is, you know, we both stumbled around with performing and trying to make a living at, with what we went to school for. And we both found it very difficult and, uh, it, yeah, so it took us till 45, two or 44, I guess we were technically, but better, late than I know.
Rollo Romig (01:02:20):
And like, you know, you don't do one thing your whole life. That's not how it works. We, you know, we, you know, if you're lucky you live for a long time and you do different things, I don't think I'll do this. I don't want to do the same thing I'm doing now forever. I want to try other things too, you know? Um, yeah.
Gina Pulice (01:02:38):
Um, that is, uh, how did you stop doing, doing the drugs?
Rollo Romig (01:02:43):
Oh, God, it's just kind of gradual. I'm very lucky that I didn't get addicted to anything. I just, and now I'm like super sober, not even by choice. I just really lost interest in it. It wasn't even a conscious decision, but, um, I think just as my life improved, you know, I just like didn't want to anymore. Um, yeah. But that's, I feel very lucky for that, that I never had. I also just, I drank too like great access, you know? Uh, like I remember, I remember repeatedly in my twenties, like passing out in the bathrooms of bars, you know, um, uh, not good, not good stuff. Um, and, um, uh, and now like, it just, it just holds no interest for me and that's been for a while, but if it was really just to kind of a gradual thing. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I'm lucky that way. Like, I, I also kind of, I quit smoking that way to where I didn't even decide. I just kind of like tapered off, which is weird, you know? Like, I don't know,
Gina Pulice (01:03:41):
That's an anomaly. I think most people struggle with it a lot more. Thank goodness. But thank goodness you didn't have, you know, a near death experiences, what it usually takes for people to give up doing drugs.
Rollo Romig (01:03:52):
It could, it could have gone really bad. Yeah. So, so the purpose is to look, yeah,
Gina Pulice (01:03:58):
You went to Columbia, which a lot, we've talked to a lot of people who that's a very common pathway after leaving the theater school is to finish the degree at Columbia. And almost everybody we've talked to has said, you know, it was such a better fit for them. And they were so grateful that they got cut because Columbia was the right place. But it w it's not that it doesn't sound like it was the wrong place for you. It just wasn't the field that you really were meant to be in.
Rollo Romig (01:04:26):
I just, it was, Columbia was fine and my teachers were great and all that, but, you know, the whole thing happened to me. The whole rest of my college years occurred in a haze of marijuana smoke and like the, I just wasn't really engaged. And so the right place for me finally. And when I really kind of like, and I always regretted that I always regretted that I wasted my college years is how I saw it. And that I didn't really like have an actual college experience. Cause I was like, yeah, in high school, I was just like a straight a student in college. I got pretty, you know, at Columbia college, I actually got pretty poor grades and I, I could have easily gotten good grades if I had been engaged. And um, but like finally going to graduate school years later was kind of, that was when I belatedly found my thing. You know what I, I always, you know, recently I read, uh, this novel by a Summerset mom of human. It's a terrible title, but it's actually a really great book. I have, I think you read this book or anything.
Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
I started to read it about like 20 years ago. I don't think I finished.
Rollo Romig (01:05:30):
If it's, it might be the kind of book that hits you better when you're a little older. Cause it's like, it's like a coming of age story and he wrote the first draft of it. Um, it's very autobiographical. And he wrote the first draft of it. Um, when he was like right after the events had happened and it was really raw and he sent it around to many publishers and they all rejected it. And then he kind of stuck it in a drawer. And then like 20 years later pulled it out and totally rewrote it. But he had like all those raw emotions from that time, he got them down. Cause you forget all that stuff, you forget all the specifics and the way things actually felt. But then he had like the distance of experience and he re he rewrote it's very usual cause he liked to drafts 20 years apart and you can kind of feel how both are there.
Rollo Romig (01:06:16):
And like he tells the story of how like the main character of the book is, um, uh, what really wants to be an artist and is really fervent about it. And he goes to art school and studies with artists, but he's just not cut out for it. And, and, and then his life, he just kind of stumbles through life and, and uh, and it's not going well for him until finally he realized what he wants to do is be a doctor. And then he finally flourishes at that at the end. And I was like, wow, this really feels kind of like the story I really related to it a lot. Um, uh, the, uh, just kind of the, the journey of this character goes through there. Um, but yeah, you know, the, um, it's funny cause the, with the theater stuff, like,
Speaker 4 (01:06:56):
You know, I was thinking about, you know,
Rollo Romig (01:07:02):
Do I regret going, like going to the theater school period? Do I regret going to acting and all, I mean, I don't think, like I learned that much from trying to be an actor specifically and obviously like going to theater school and getting cut was a terrible experience. I'm glad I got cut in a weird way because like, I would've just continued. Of course. And then it, it just wouldn't have worked out in the long run I think at, um, uh, but even because I got through it, even that bad experience of getting caught and then dealing with it over years, I do think it kind of toughen me up, you know, I dunno, I dunno. Or
Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
Like, well, I I'll tell you one
Rollo Romig (01:07:48):
Thing that it helped me learn was like to, to really do things for myself, you know? Uh, and like, like, like I, I mean, in the sense of like do things because they bring me joy and not because, and not to try to like, uh, please an institution or please, um, uh, you know, uh, a professor or whatever, you know, and, and that was something I learned in a different, like one of the, one of the many things I tried in my twenties that I was not good at, was I playing in, uh, playing in bands. I played like keyboards and, and, um, mostly in bands, I was not good. That was another thing where like I tried to learn, uh, play piano for many years and just never got good at it. It was so annoying just like to put all those years of practice and playing the piano and just continue to suck, you know, like I was, I was such a bummer, but the, um, but anyway, I played in bands where, you know, the whole band sucked enough where it didn't really matter that I also sucked anyway, we were bad.
Rollo Romig (01:08:51):
I, in my, in my opinion, you know, we were not good bands, but you know how it is when you're a performer, you get off stage and people think that was amazing. That was incredible. You were great. And like, that's just how it is because people it's awkward, people know what fragile egos performers have. Uh, you know, they're right there in front of you. You don't want to insult. Um, so of course you're always going to say, and just having people say that to me over and over getting off stage from like, uh, a performance in the band, knowing it was bad, getting like praise to high heaven for it. I just like learned to just disregard praise or mission. You know what I mean? Just like this is that this is like not what you're, when people praise you. It's just, it's usually not even some sincere, authentic, so you better be doing it for a different reason, you know?
Rollo Romig (01:09:44):
And, um, and, and I think I, when I went into acting, I really was doing it for applause and I was doing it because of like, also just kind of like the cult of celebrity too. Like I remember fantasizing like what I was like in my late teens. I remember having extensive repeated fantasies of like what I would say on talk shows, but not, but not having fantasies about making things. Do you know what I mean? And that should have been a side, like you're like, you should be dreaming about the things you want to make, you know, and not about like, yeah. Talking to,
Jen Bosworth (01:10:23):
Yeah. It's the cultural celebrity, that's the cult of celebrity. I mean, that's just, you know, I, my mind was blown. We were talking to someone who was sharing just about being on stage and having this moment of, um, of really feeling the audience and feeling like this. This is the reason I do this. And I've never had that moment ever. I don't think I've ever had a moment. And I was like, Oh, I should be doing something else. Like, look, it doesn't mean I'm bad or she's good, but all it means is, Oh, this is not. And so what I hear from you is like, this is not the quality that I'm looking for in my life of hearing that I'm good at something that I don't feel I'm good at. But it sounds like with your writing, you've found that sort of, um, uh, I guess for lack of a better word, it's like an authentic thing that you're doing that feels
Gina Pulice (01:11:14):
Like you're on the right path. I just think that is so
Rollo Romig (01:11:17):
Wonderful that you found your writing. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, you know, and I, and that is how it feels, you know? And I think you, I think, you know, when you're doing it and it's not like, it's not like, um, all praise is meaningless to me. Of course, I like to be complimented and like, but it's like, it, it's only meaningful if like, like I find it meaningful when I, I read or overhear some praise that someone is saying, and I, and they didn't know I was going to hear it, you know, like that's meaningful. Or like, if someone writes me an email about something I wrote and it's clearly like really specifically, like, like this meant a lot to me, for whatever reason, you know, then that's really great, you know, and that is actually very encouraging, um, and meaningful. Uh, but not this kind of like odd, but like if a friend of mine says, Oh, I read your article. It was great. That means nothing, no loves everything. I've just, anytime, anytime I do anything. And my mother tells her that she was like, okay, mom. Yeah, I'm sure you loved it after everything my nine-year-old does, but
Gina Pulice (01:12:29):
I have this experience all the time. I'm part of this, uh, performance group. And, um, and I'll do something and I'll feel really proud of it. And I'll get all this praise and then somebody else will do something. That'll be crap. And they'll get all this praise. And I'm like, Oh, I was, I was shooting for the wrong thing here. But, you know, I want to go back to something about stumbling into acting, which is that I think, and I have a child in high school now I'm remembering it a little bit. But, um, I think what happens to a lot of people and maybe even, especially boys and men, if you aren't necessarily like fitting in with the thing that is the big thing at your school, if you go, you know, if it's sports or if it's, whatever it is, it it, and you don't like there, there's just this leftover category, which ends up being always the theater department, the drama group. And so socially, I mean, I went to high school with Jessica chestain she? But she was like the only person besides me that I know of, who's still pursuing this. Mostly. It was people who were being rejected socially in other spheres and found a home of their peers. And that turned into, I must like theater.
Rollo Romig (01:13:53):
Exactly. I think that's an excellent point. And theater is wonderful for kids like us who are in that category. I mean, it's an, it's an amazing thing. And that's what actually, that's what got me through high school. It's funny that it's what got me through high school. And then it's what ruined college, you know, the funny that way. Cause it like really, uh, cause I was, I was very, I was super miserable in middle school, you know, and like absolutely, uh, theater was my saving grace in high school. And so like what, you know, God, it's, it is such, it is such a gift to so many kids, but like, yeah, but not everyone should go, go into professionals.
Jen Bosworth (01:14:34):
There's an, I think about this with writing and other things like if, if you don't fit in theater should not be the only option for those of us. And then we shouldn't try to make a living at it just because it was a place that accepted us into it's like, let's give kids more options. Like, it's the story? Like, how about writing? How about directing? How about producing like, or, or other stuff? I mean, it just speaks to, um, the narrow, the narrowness that we have, like you were saying, this really narrow scope about what's successful and then what to do for college and what to do for a career. Just because, I mean, this is really crass, but just because I'm good at blow jobs doesn't mean I should be doing them all the time. Do you know what I'm saying? Or professionally? So, so I think there's like this broad spectrum and, and while theater is great to house us, us misfits, it doesn't mean we should go and try to go and beyond, you know, all my children. No, that's fine. But we didn't know.
Rollo Romig (01:15:37):
I, I met a lot of, I met a lot of kids in journalism school who like the school paper or the school year book actually was that thing for them. And it's funny, like, I, those things weren't even on my radar in high school, they had no interest for me, but like, um, uh, and then even now like, like the kind of journalism I do, like, I, I am a journalist, but like I'm not interested in news. Like I, you know, I don't really, I kind of hate news in a way, but I write, uh, like everything I read about is it's never news. Um, it's always just things that I, I I'm interested in writing about.
Jen Bosworth (01:16:14):
Do you write about theater? I saw on your website, you do some things about theater. Is that when you were at, when you said earlier, you're still involved in theater, is that what you're writing?
Rollo Romig (01:16:22):
Yeah, so, you know, I did, like, I kinda, I got back into theater in a couple of different ways were first after I moved to New York city. Um, I, for a few years I fell into stage managing for like downtown theater companies for, for, um, for just like weird downtown theater companies. And I loved it. It was really fun and it just happened. Like I went to some show by this group. They are they've unfortunately folded now, but this company called the national theater of the United States of America. And, and, uh, and they, yeah, they're not, they weren't the actual national theater that's historic, but the, um, they were amazing. They were so delightful and funny and, and inventive. And, uh, and, and I remember just seeing one of their shows and just being like, God, I just have to be a part of what these people are doing in some way.
Rollo Romig (01:17:09):
And I just dropped by their theater one day and said, is there anything you need help with because I just want to be a part of it. And they were like, we need a stage manager. And I was like, okay, great. What's that? Um, what does a stage manager do? And then they told me, and then I just like, um, uh, got, got it, got into that. And then, um, and, and did say managing for other shows for years, I loved it, but I knew I didn't want to do it professionally, but it was a lot of fun. I got to know a lot of, I got to know the theater scene here really well, especially kind of the downtown scene and, um, uh, doing the weird stuff and, um, and got to know a lot of, yeah, just theater professionals here. And then later when I started working at the new Yorker, I was working as a copy editor at the new Yorker magazine right after journalism school.
Rollo Romig (01:17:55):
And I overheard that, um, uh, that this one of the regular theater reviewers was leaving. It actually was, uh, uh, it happened to be Brandon Jacob Jenkins, who, um, who's gone on to become an enormous successful playwrights. He was, he was leaving in order to, uh, to kind of devote himself full time to play writing. And, um, uh, and he kind of focused on in his theater reviewing for, uh, on the, on the downtown stuff, you know, so they had this gap there. And, um, uh, and this is just like, this is just the little capsule reviews in the front of the magazine, in the section called, uh, goings on about town. And so I, I said, I just overheard that he was leaving. And so I went to the editor and I said, Hey, you know, I actually have some background theater and I actually know that scene pretty well.
Rollo Romig (01:18:44):
Um, w would you be interested in giving me a try? And she was like, sure, then I've been doing it for like 10 years, you know? And, uh, and it's so great. I love it. It's one of my favorite parts of life is like going to these, it's funny. I only ever write these little capsule reviews that are like 130 words long. I've never written a full length theater review. I wouldn't even know how to, I'm just for this format. I love this format because it's like, it's like kind of a game of like how much information can you fit into a paragraph, you know? And like, um, and so it's just so fun just to go, like, go, I see a couple shows or I did until the pandemic saw a couple of shows a weekend. And, uh, and just like, it's just such a great way to be engaged with New York city. And it's like a really fun writing practice. Uh, and so, yeah, obviously it never would have happened if I hadn't been in the theater beforehand. Um, so that in a roundabout way, you know, that, um, it paid off in his head. It's funny because like, no teenager is like, I want to be a theater critic.
Rollo Romig (01:19:50):
No, I wanna meet that kid who does want to be a theater critic, but it turns out that it's, that it's, uh, that it's actually extremely fun. Of course it is. It's great. It's a great,
Gina Pulice (01:20:03):
How did you get in, uh, looks like you've spent a lot of time in and written a lot about India. How did that come about
Rollo Romig (01:20:10):
My, uh, just through marriage, actually, my, um, uh, my, my wife is from India and we go every year for family trips and it was around the time when I was really kind of getting my freelance career going. I had to just, you know, when were going there, I just noticed that there were a lot of great things to write about. And then, so I started pitching stories to, uh, you know, especially the New York times magazine seeing if they could, they've taken, taken all the ideas. It's been great. I'm working on a book about it now. Exactly. So now I'm working on a book, so I'm just kind of deep into that right now. And it's kind of expanding on one of the stories that I did for the New York times magazine. It's a pretty grim story about the murder of a journalist, um, in, uh, in Bangalore a few years ago. Um, so it's a book-length version, but it's the books, not just grim, it's like, kind of about her whole world and like the kind of like a really vibrant, like literary world that she came out to. Um, so
Gina Pulice (01:21:10):
Yeah, I think your first time writing a book for
Rollo Romig (01:21:12):
Definitely first time writing a book and that's, um, and I always kind of wanted to get into that. So this is a, and I'm really enjoying the process. It's good. It's really hard work, but it's, um, uh, I like it. I like it a lot.
Gina Pulice (01:21:26):
It's do you have like a dedicated practice? I mean, a routine, the system for how you write
Rollo Romig (01:21:31):
Yeah. You know, it's really fallen off. Like I've been, you know, like everyone's so distracted this year that everything's kind of falling apart. I, I asked my editor for a, a year extension, um, and she said, no problem. Um, uh, and, but yeah, you know, I write every day and there's, and there's just a ton of research too. So I've just got mountains of books that I'm weeding through. It's kind of like, I think I meant like cooking, like, you know, like, like making, like reducing a stock, like you take all these vegetables and like, uh, you're just like cooking a doc, cooking it down and cooking it down until like, and so I feel like I have all these, like hundreds of books that I'm reading through, or at least reading apart and all these inter like countless interviews of like hundreds of thousands of words and all these are just all this reporting. I did all this stuff and it's just like cooking it down, cooking it down. Um, yeah. So it's a book, hopefully,
Gina Pulice (01:22:27):
Boz I don't think I told you this, but Rollo had written to us saying, you know, something about, if we ever wrote a book using cereal and I was like, Oh, what a good idea we should do that we should write a book using this material or something, something related to this that would be, but definitely have to call you up. If we, I mean, it's been such a pleasure to hear you and to see you and to know that like, if it does give me great hope to know that we can stumble through really, we were lucky. We're lucky in that we ha we can stumble through and still make it, but like that there's anyone
Jen Bosworth (01:23:06):
Out there that's listening. That's like, man, I am not good at anything that is not true. The thing is you just haven't found the thing and the thing has the thing, has it found you? And I think that's what I'm going to take from our talk is that, like, you don't know when the thing is going to find you and you'll find your thing. And the cult of youth is a myth and a lie and we got to get over it cause that's not right.
Rollo Romig (01:23:31):
Absolutely. And it's like, you know, I, I feel like this is the best time in my life. And, um, and no one, no one tells you that when you're a teenager or in your twenties, that like you actually, there's actually a good chance. You'll be love in your life when you're in your forties or even your fifties or whatever. You're, you're just like forties. Uh, but like, but I think it's true for a lot of people that they finish. Even if you are good at something, when you're younger, it's just such a period of like insecurity and just like, Oh God, I don't miss that time at all. Not just because the theater thing didn't work out just because it's such an awkward time, you know?
Gina Pulice (01:24:15):
Absolutely. So awkward. I'm what I'm going to take away related to what boss said is, you know, if you're finding that you aren't, you feel like you're not good. I think, uh, look at, take another look at the way you got to do the thing that you're doing, that you feel like you're not good at, you know, is it just because it can be something so fleeting? Like, you know, I remember at one, one time, at one point in my life, my dad said you should be a lawyer. And even though I wanted to be a, an actor since the time I was five years old, there was a brief moment when I wasn't doing well with this. I thought, well, I guess, I guess my own, I literally said to myself, I guess my only other choice is to be a lawyer.
Rollo Romig (01:25:01):
And
Gina Pulice (01:25:01):
The only thing that stopped me from doing it was the GRE I did not. And I knew I would not be able to pass the LSATs, but like, you know, examine, consider the source of where you, you know, the thing that you've been pursuing, why are you doing that? And maybe because maybe you need to pay more attention to, you know, what you like instead of what other people tell you. You're good.
Rollo Romig (01:25:24):
Yeah. And you know, there are so many things that people are doing now that did not exist when we were podcasting did not exist when it was far from existing. This was not like, yeah,
Jen Bosworth (01:25:38):
It wasn't a thing. And now it is, and now we can have people like you on which I'm. So I'm just so grateful that we had you on because it's like, it just gives me hope there.
Rollo Romig (01:25:51):
Wow. I was delighted to hear it from you because I felt like actually, I'm finally ready to talk about it.
Gina Pulice (01:25:58):
Right?
Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
[inaudible] theater school. It's an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plea cheat are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one that's undeniable, right? Without the [inaudible].
Intro: checking in on Boz's heart, atrial fibrillation, going to the doctor.
Interview: We talk to Kat Phillips about fire pet rescue, being a Commissioner on Human Rights in Sonoma County, coming to Chicago for the first time from Indiana, competition vs lifting each other up, seeing life as an improv game, almost not getting the role and working with Mel Gibson on Payback, subverting the dominant paradigm by playing punk rock Juliet, the Hothouse, gibberish operatic improv, the upcoming director's cut of But I'm A Cheerleader, and the lovely surprise of finding all kinds of people you know on TV!
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I mean, you know, it's all good, right? It's all,
Speaker 2: (00:34)
It's fine. As long as my heart keeps beating, you know, I'm fine. I know when you wake up in the morning, do you have that, like one of your first thoughts? Like is my heart. Okay. Yeah. It's more, it's interesting. So [inaudible] happens more at night when you lay down. If you're going to have it at that's the time, because your heart usually sends your brain sensing most to your heart, we're going to sleep calm down. And if you have a fib, it doesn't calm down. So I'm always like, is it? But I am okay. And I'm on medicine to slow it down. So, um, I know I'm covered and the other thing, but yes, the answer is yes to that question, but I also then can calm myself down because they did so many tests on my heart while I was there. That I, they know it's fine.
Speaker 2: (01:16)
There's no sign of heart disease. So it's more like, um, yeah, it's just anxiety. That's what it is. It's it's hard anxiety. All right. Well, since we S we tend to do so many, um, you know, public service announcements for our adoring public, tell us what it is like to get your heart tested. Like what do they do? Okay. So it's really, it's quite crazy. Um, so first of all, they just take tons of blood and you realize that it's true. What they say, that you could fill up three bathtubs with your blood, or to ask Aaron, ask Erin, I couldn't make that up, but my nurse said that, but, you know, she said, I guess it depends on how big you are. But she said that she said that, um, I think she said two or three bathtubs of blood. If you emptied out a person.
Speaker 2: (02:03)
And I was like, uh, cause, cause they took 10 vials of blood over two days, like big vials. And I was like, am I gonna bleed my going to bleed to death? And she was like, no, honey, but she may have been using what hyperbole or whatever. I don't know. But the point is we have a lot of blood in there, but anyway, so first they did a battery of blood tests and everything was fine. So that didn't freak me out. But what is freaky is the echo-cardiogram. So the echocardiogram is where it's basically an ultrasound of your heart. However, they shoot you with dye so they can see it. And you have to lay in these weird positions and they're literally like moving your ribs out of the way, moving your organs out of the way to get to the heart on the outside.
Speaker 2: (02:50)
So they don't go inside anywhere. Um, but it's like late lean here in, and at that time I was and puking. So I was like, lady, I was like, can we she's like, you're really sweaty. I'm like, no I've been, I'm like having some kind of problem here. And she's like, Oh, but she doesn't care. Her job is to get the tests done. She right. He was funny since she was doing a heart test, but she was literally the most caring one. And I understand she's got to get these pictures of the heart. And at one point I made the mistake. I should've never done this, but I said, how's it looking?
Speaker 2: (03:32)
She goes, I can't tell you that it will be read by your cardiologist. I'm not allowed to say anything. And I said, Oh, I don't know why it just came out of my mouth because I was so nervous. And I was like, what does she see? Is she seeing well, I, my only, I think I can relate to it. That is when you go to get your ultrasound, when you're having a baby, you know, you are kind of trying to read the person's face, but they do say, I mean, just to be, they always say like, well, you know, obviously everything has to be interpreted by your doctor, but it's like, it's looking good. It's looking good to me just to say like, they're not like, wow. Well, she goes, she, she did. She helped me out because I was like, Oh my God, she's not going to say anything.
Speaker 2: (04:15)
But then she goes, but you know, she goes, I can't say anything, but at the same time, I'm not running out of here. Call getting ICU on the phone or whatever, or like the heart doctor on the phone. So that made me feel better. And I did know already that my heart was beating irregularly. So I thought, well, maybe she's just talking about that, that it, but I thought, Oh, what if she see something else? Cause that's where they can really see if there's heart disease. If there's, um, valve problems, clogged arteries, they can see that with the, with the ultrasound. Um, um, and they take, I always forget with, with ultrasounds and with MRIs, I didn't have an MRI this time, but it's, it takes forever. They, they, they, because they're measuring each function of the heart, but so basically half naked on your side, but then being told to contort and then being told to hold your breath, when you feel nauseous and have to puke and you're sweating just to hold your breath.
Speaker 2: (05:07)
And I was like, Oh, I'm going to, this is not going to end well, like we, it is going to be, but I made it because you weren't sick. You had a virus. I had a virus and heart was beating. It re it was the worst. That was the low point of my stay was Monday morning when she was like, and hold your breath. I was like, Oh my God. She goes, how you doing? I said, I'm dripping with sweat. I have a fever. I don't feel well. And she would, and I didn't say it rudely, but I was just like, I'm not feeling well. And she goes, okay, we're almost done. And they say that, and they're never almost done. So, um, and she, then she had to inject more die, whatever. So the point is, it's a weird thing. And also I am so grateful.
Speaker 2: (05:45)
I I'm telling you, I don't. I consider myself a pretty positive person, but I I'm really grateful that it happened so that I know my baselines for my heart functioning. So another PSA for our listeners go to the Dr. Le listen, I know if you're shamed about, if you feel something's wrong, go, if you think they're going to shame you go anyway, it, they probably will shame you because our medical system is kind of screwy, but it doesn't matter go for you and go, if you feel there is a problem, and you're afraid to go bring someone with you, if, when it's not COVID times, or if you can have someone that support, but don't wait because it's, um, I feel like it's better to, I do feel like, and I felt like this was my mom with her cancer journey and everything. It's better to know what the heck is going on with yourself or who you love that way when it happens.
Speaker 2: (06:39)
If it happens again, you're like, no, no, no. I know what this is. I know how to, I have a team, get yourself a team that you trust and you can call your team and say, whether it's doctors and support people and say, Hey, my heart's doing that weird thing again. So just don't be alone in the thing. But do you go to the doctor? I hate going to the doctor, but you know, when you've heard that thing about the bathtub full blood, that reminds me of like, when they tell you, if you connected all your neurons or no, your, your nerve Synopsys, they would go around, but wait, no, that CA that's. How is that even? How is that, uh, how does something that fit inside your body that doesn't make any sense? Crazy? I mean, I, I, someone said our intestines are happening.
Speaker 2: (07:32)
Let's lay them out and find out they did that. They did that in torture times, but easy. So anyway, it was a weird experience. I feel really grateful. I, I, you know, I've changed my diet significantly. We'll see how it, how it works. Like I, I have, I'm just eating a tremendous amount of fish. It's unbelievable. Um, wow. Wow. Okay. That's pretty, that's a huge commitment because my thing with fish is I only ever order it in restaurants. Cause I hate cooking it in my house. They hate the way it smells. Do you have some cool tips, eating fish at home? The fish, yes. The fish you want to get is salmon or tilapia. Smell the least. And also you want to just crank your fan on, but also you want to keep, if you keep the lid on it, it doesn't smell as bad.
Speaker 2: (08:23)
So I don't bake it. I pan I pan sear it or I, and I have a lid on at all times. It's when it's in the oven or exposed that it like permeates everything. So that, but really, yeah, it just gets kind of, it does get kind of fishy, but it goes away. I, I, uh, I'm a weirdo and burn a tremendous amount of Sage in the house. So, so fishy Sage, but you know, whatever, I wouldn't do it. If it's saving your heart, like it can smell like whatever, whatever. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I'm really happy that, cause I think if I were in your position, I would find it really difficult to make so many changes. All of a sudden. Yes. I think it's easier when you don't have children to be on. Yeah. Yeah. Probably. But I am doing something in solidarity with you, which is that I realized that I, since the pandemic have been drinking alcohol every single night, so I stopped drinking alcohol.
Speaker 2: (09:27)
Yeah. And it's great. Like it's, I'm realizing like, Oh, this was just a terrible habit. One that doesn't negatively impacts your sleep. Um, actually weirdly I think creates more anxiety in a weird way. I don't, I don't really know how that works, but I feel less anxious. That's fantastic. What was the other thing I was noticing? That's really good. Um, how were you, how much were you drinking? Well, I would always have a glass of wine and then something else like before bed, like a whiskey or a, you know, like a spirits. Yeah. And it was, you know, you just talk yourself into like, this is fine. Everybody does this. This is totally fine. Uh, not to mention, like I have enormous family history for addiction, so it was never a smart idea for me to begin with. And, and you know, and as much as I'd like to say, Oh, I'll probably go to a point where I can drink.
Speaker 2: (10:38)
Occasionally. I'm not S I think what happens to me is that I just it's habits. It's like what? I do, something that I like, it could be eating cookies or drinking alcohol, or not that I would ever do this, but snorting cocaine, if I do it and I like it, then I just want to do it every day. Yeah. I think that that's so right. And then I just might get stuck in routines. I relate to that a hundred percent. And for me, um, since I don't really, I don't drink any, you know, I haven't, I don't really do that, that, but I, but McDonald's is the same thing. So people think, how can you, how can you eat? McDonald's it's so gross. Haven't you seen those haven't you seen those things where they leave the burger and the fries out. I don't care about any of that to me.
Speaker 2: (11:23)
It's good. It is a treat to be celebrated when you want to celebrate something or when you're in a hurry and you don't have time, you just want cramps something in it is all those things. So I, I, I, and I haven't obviously had that since I've, since I've been in the hospital, but I, um, I think it's delicious. I don't care what people say, filet of fish and people, and people are like, you, you know, and someone's like, well, after a while, it'll be gross. You I'm like, no, it won't, but I, I still won't do it because I know that the thing about McDonald's too is actually the thing that gets you is the sodium. So, so my doctor was like, it's, it's look, it's the, of course it's the fat and carbs and all that crap. But the thing that's really dangerous for your heart with McDonald's is the amount of sodium that's in it and your blood pressure here.
Speaker 2: (12:12)
So he's like, what they don't tell you is that is the secret things. That'll kill you from these fast food places. People are thinking, Oh, it's bad for you, but why is it bad? Well, it's bad because the amount of sodium in a, in a, uh, like a quarter pounder with cheese is your daily is your intake for two weeks. You're supposed to have yeah. And a quarter pounder. Yeah. So it's, it's, so you'd have to eat zero other salt for two weeks to make, to get it level again. And I'm like, well, that's crap. I can't do that. And he's like, right. So I don't eat at McDonald's and it's because of the sodium. And I'm like, Oh, you're a chair. He's like, no, I just see the effects of people. 22 year olds have had McDonald's every day who have the blood pressure of an 89 year old that has, you know, an 89 year old heart.
Speaker 2: (13:01)
And I'm like, did you ever watch that? And I, and I know this guy is like problematic or weird, whatever, that guy, Morgan Spurlock. And he did that thing that was so creepo that it's called supersize me. Right. Um, now there's an argument to be made for, like, you shouldn't eat the same thing every day, no matter what it is, unless it's like wheat, grass and salmon, I guess. Uh, but it was profound. He, he, he, he, you could see, it was only 30 days and you could see the way he looked. It was just like doughy and greasy and just pay and just gross. But it tastes at the time it tastes delicious. And you know, when I take comfort in for better or worse, is that the fact that, you know, we are a fast food nation and I am not the only one with this problem makes me feel like he's like, you know, which actually makes me feel better.
Speaker 2: (14:00)
Cause I'm like, okay. Yeah. He's like, I'm having this conversation that I'm having with you at least 10 times a day with patients. And I'm like, just talk to them about diet and food and the exercise and heart health. He's like, we don't learn about heart health. Nobody knows about heart health. It's just, we should all be on a heart healthy diet. We just aren't, you know, and I, and it made me feel less, um, less alone to know that like, well, clearly, you know, every, everyone is in this boat, you know, and it's just degrees. Yeah. And, and honestly, like you deserve so much credit for breaking a particular cycle, which is that you're w you learned after your father's death, that he was coping in a way that was unhealthy for him. He probably knew that it was unhealthy. He probably worried that it was going to kill him.
Speaker 2: (14:54)
He probably had shame about admitting that or going to the doctor. So he just suffered in silence, kept the secrets to himself and just died and left you and your sister and your mother, and like a lot to deal with the aftermath. So true. And he was afraid he didn't go to the dentist for 17 years. And then they had to pull all his teeth. I mean, he was that kind of a guy. I can't live like that. Mostly. I just, I mean, I could, but I choose not to cause my, I can't take the worrying. Like he was able to be in denial so much. I mean, he was probably very worried, like you say, but he was able, the worrying wasn't enough to drag his butt to the doctor. Also, my mother was totally, totally unsupportive of him. She was like, I don't care if you don't want to go on it.
Speaker 2: (15:44)
You know, like that's not right. That's not a good way. And it's you're you made your bed lie in it kind of a thing. So thank gosh, I, I have a partner too. That's like, Nope, let's go to the emergency room. Your heart's freaking out. Let's go. Um, so I don't feel, I don't feel alone, which is good. Um, that's wonderful. I'm, I'm happy. I couldn't be happier that you're here today on the podcast. We have the cat Phillips who, you know, from just a ton of TV shows too many to list here as well as one of my favorite movies called, but I'm a cheerleader with Natasha Leon, which is coming up on its anniversary and have a all new director's cut. Anyway, she's also a human rights advocate and a fire pet rescue angel and an all around lovely human being. So please enjoy our interview with cat Phillips. Congratulations. You survived theater school. I sure did. Yes, we all did. And that's, that's why we're all here. So it's great to see you pauses, right? You do sound exactly the same and I don't think I've spoken to you or seen you since the late nineties and you've been up to a lot you've, uh, right now your work is not acting related. I don't think,
Speaker 3: (17:21)
Um, or is it no, um, I've been writing poetry and then also, um, I'm a commissioner for human rights, Sonoma County, third district, and a member of the human trafficking task force. Wow. And, um, I've just been really involved in the community. Um, I'm also a fire pet rescue. Uh, Oh, wow. Person. It's been, um, crazy here with the fires, uh, ever since 2017 is when I joined, um, a month after the Tubbs fire, which was, it got up to about four minutes away. And that's the one that took out thousands of homes. And, um, I was on Facebook and I saw this picture come up and it was this woman going down a, a storm drain to get a cat. And I was like, these people need help.
Speaker 2: (18:35)
Yeah.
Speaker 3: (18:37)
And so, um, that's when I joined and we've been active in every single, um, fire incident since,
Speaker 2: (18:45)
Oh, is it dangerous? I mean, what do you put yourself in danger?
Speaker 3: (18:49)
Sure. Um, during the Kincade fire, we were going to be deputized to go behind the fire line, um, because they were like, if, if we can get in there sooner, we can actually save more animals, you know? And, um, because the hardest part is cats there, um, like a dog, you literally just throw some food down, a dog comes to you and you're like, okay, let's find your home. Right. Cats are like, bye. See ya. And, um, yeah, it was crazy. We found, I mean, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of, of animals, and most of them got returned to their owners.
Speaker 2: (19:34)
How did you end up at the theater school? I mean, that's a sort of a large question, but I mean, were you an actor as a kid? Did you,
Speaker 3: (19:44)
Um, I've been acting since I was about nine or 10 and, um, I had already been accepted at several different colleges. Um, one of them was a full ride scholarship to this day. I kicked myself. Yeah. Um, but uh, in high school in Indiana, we had took a trip to Chicago to go to the art museum in my senior year. And as we were driving into the city, I was like, wow, what a beautiful city. And so we had an assignment, I can't remember what the assignment was, but it was something like I had to go study a certain painting and then write a paper on it. So I went and I found the painting. I, I just like took notes real quick. And then I bolted, I, I left and I explore the by myself, um, got lost, got on. My owl was like eight hot dogs. And, um, I just fell in love with Chicago. And so I made it back to the bus just in time to get back to Indianapolis. All my friends were like, where the hell are we? Where are you? I was like, well, my goal, the studio.
Speaker 3: (21:11)
And, um, so then I just studied, it started studying schools in Chicago for, for acting. And the theater school came up as, as, uh, an amazing school. And so I auditioned and was so surprised that I got in and it was weird because I was one of the very few people from my high school that actually left the state. Wow. And I was like, I'm outta here,
Speaker 2: (21:44)
Surprising to me because usually you think in cities, I mean, you're from Indianapolis, right.
Speaker 3: (21:50)
Um, I went to high school there.
Speaker 2: (21:52)
Okay. You bet you're, you're from a more, a smaller place.
Speaker 3: (21:57)
Um, I'm army brat. So I was all over. I was actually born in Massachusetts and moved to New Zealand and moved to Germany and then moved to Indiana. Whoa.
Speaker 2: (22:12)
So did you, do you remember your audition at the theater school? Cause we've been asking, first of all, I want to just say that people have said similar things. Most people say I was shocked. I got in it's interesting and very talented people and I consider you very talented. I remember you as being very, and people have said, I'm shocked. I got in. And so do you remember your audition?
Speaker 3: (22:35)
Um, yeah, I was just so scared. Um, I remember my mother traveled to Chicago with me and that's when she learned that I, I smoked cigarettes because I was so nervous that I was like, I just, I can't even hide this from you. So, and she was like, give me one. And I just remember, well, as a lot of times when, when I would act, I don't really remember my actual performance. Um, I don't know if you guys have that experience too, where it's just kind of like this blank space and then all of a sudden you're like holding hands and bowing
Speaker 2: (23:30)
Out of body situation. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (23:32)
So I, I really don't. I remember just being really nervous, really scared. And then just being like, they're either going to say yes or they're going to say no, so go out there and do your, so
Speaker 2: (23:48)
Then get starting school there. I mean, we know you were really excited to be living in Chicago, but regarding the program, how did it match up with what you expected it to be?
Speaker 3: (24:01)
I was overwhelmed. Um, I didn't realize the program was going to be that intense. Um, I felt very alone. Um, you know, acting is a very, um, what do you call it? Everybody's trying to be the best. Everybody's trying to out shine the other person, um, competitive, very competitive. And it was, thank you. Um, I felt for quite a while, like how are we supposed to truly make something beautiful when we're always in competition with each other? That's yeah. You know, because for me the best amazing part about theater is the connection to the other people. That's the brilliance of, of theater, you know, like I remember, uh, yellow boat with the both of you and we, because of the way that we were, especially with the, um, the process of how we got there with alcohol. It, um, it was very natural. It was very firm. It was very, I know that I can lean on you guys and you guys could lean on me. Um, we had trust and that mainly I think in class was kind of missing because I don't know.
Speaker 2: (25:51)
Perfect. Yeah. That makes perfect sense to me. And how did you deal with that competitiveness? Cause we were talking to people and people do all kinds of things to get through. And I'm just wondering, how did you, how did you manage, how did you get through?
Speaker 3: (26:05)
Um, I just stayed in my own uniqueness. Um, I realized very early on that I was not in any way, shape or form to be compared to anybody in my class. And that is not a, a boastful thing. It has nothing to do with talent. It was, it was kind of like I had to find my own strength and um, and so I was like, we're, we're all completely different. And so I was, and I just tried to be as supportive as possible to my classmates and um, whether they were supportive of me or not.
Speaker 2: (26:47)
That's yeah. It's interesting. The whole thing about competition, because that comes up almost to everybody with everybody that we talk to. And I, so like in the rear view, I can say, yes, it was competitive or I felt competitive or, and my version of feeling competitive was always just feeling less than, so it was really just doing it kind of all inside, inside. But do we think that the school itself propagated this whole idea about competition or is it just inherent to this type of work where millions of people want to be an actor and there's only so many paid positions?
Speaker 3: (27:32)
Um, I, at first I thought it was the school at first. I thought, you know, wow, that was, that was really rough and it felt like bootcamp. And I don't think I've ever been so busy in my life. Um, except now that's weird. I'm really busy right now. Um, but the, the pressure they put on you, um, was exorbitant. And then when I left Chicago and went to Hollywood, I was very thankful for the training that I received because I was like, wow, this is competitive. And you know, and now I've got the six skin and, and I just, I wasn't scared at all. So the training that I received from the school was exactly what I needed because Hollywood is like, Oh my God, like swimming with sharks. It's crazy. You know, you could walk into an audition and see a friend of yours and be like, Hey, what's up? Never like, don't talk to me. I'm like, okay, we'll talk later. I guess, are you up for the same part as me? I'm like, Oh, break a leg.
Speaker 2: (29:17)
I bet that gave you a big, I bet your attitude about it gave you a competitive edge, ironically, you know what I mean? You're, you're, you're sort of refusal to participate in the, uh, you know, cause what it ends up being at that level at the entry level, let's say with the competition is it ends up being like something that cannibalizes itself and doesn't, doesn't really propel anybody to the next.
Speaker 4: (29:42)
But I imagine your approach probably did, uh, propel you.
Speaker 3: (29:46)
Um, I, I don't know. I always just try to be as supportive as possible because I mean, it doesn't matter. We're all still trying to get to the same goal and if I don't get it and I hope you get it,
Speaker 2: (30:03)
That's something that I remember about you is actually your, the attitude that you had, um, from my perception was one of common good and, and kindness and, um, yeah. And, and, and wanting the best for people. And I'm wondering, where do you think that came from?
Speaker 3: (30:27)
Uh, probably the way I grew up. Um, my dad used to always say like, when me and my siblings were fighting, he'd be like, Hey, stop it. Look at, look at each other. This is what, this is who you are. This is who you are. This is what you have. This is all you have. And so wherever I am in life, whoever's around me. I feel the same feel the same way. Like right now at this moment, this is what you have. This is all you have. Like, it's like living in the now, you know what I mean? Like I see, I see life as a, just one giant improv show. And so, you know, it's, it's always about saying yes and it's always about being there and supporting and helping. And if, you know, if I don't get the funniest line in, can I actually lead it up and let you get it? Yeah, because maybe tomorrow I'll get the funny line who cares. Right.
Speaker 4: (31:41)
A rising tide raises all ships. So did you go to LA right after you graduated?
Speaker 3: (31:47)
No, I was in Chicago for a couple of years. Um, I did a lot of theater. Um, I got my first movie there. Um, and that was a hilarious, hilarious audition. Um, immature cheerleader though. It was for payback. Oh, Oh, that's right. With Mel
Speaker 4: (32:11)
Gibson. Yeah. Yeah. Very little
Speaker 3: (32:13)
Role. But, but it was with Mel and the audition was hilarious because it was Jane alderman. And, uh, so I had, I had like six callbacks for, I mean this big of a role and I was like this
Speaker 3: (32:37)
And I go in for the final callback and Jane's like, well, Kat it's between you and one other person. And I'm like, Jane, don't, you have to say that, you know, I wasn't nervous now I'm nervous. She was like, just remember what I've taught. And I'm like, no, I can't remember anything. I didn't even remember my lines. She get up there, she's got the video, literally a video camera. And she's like, uh, when you slate, can you, can you please also add in how tall you are? And I'm like, sure. And I'm like, hello. My name is Katrina, Phillips slate. And as I'm turning around, I'm like, and I am, and it occurred to me why she asked me how tall I was because Mel Gibson's short. And I went, I am four foot nine and I bet my knees and James like Katrina, stop it.
Speaker 3: (33:50)
And I'm like, stop what? And she's like, Katrina, stand up. I'm like, I'm standing. Can we please just get along with this? And she was like, she was like, Katrina, you're embarrassing me. And you're embarrassing yourself. I'm like, I'm not embarrassed. So I don't know what you're talking about. Can we please be professional and just keep going? And she was like, fine action. And so would you the same? And I'm, I'm literally like squatting and, uh, we, we end the scene and she turns off the camera and she tells me, she's like, I can't believe that you just did that. You just blew it, blew it. And I was like, what? And she goes, do you know, who's getting the final, uh, answer who gives the final answer on every role? What, who Mel Gibson? And I was like, Oh, she was like, he's going to see this.
Speaker 3: (34:51)
And I was like, should we go again? She goes, no goodbye. I'm going to call your agent. And I was like, that's like, I'm going to call your dad. And my agent got called and I got chewed out. And I remember going to SBL and being like, guys, I messed up. And I told everyone that I worked with what happened. And they were like, here's a shot. And then all of a sudden, my pager goes off. It's my agent, my pager, a beeper. And, uh, and I, I call and they're like, we're sorry, we yelled at you. And you got the part. And so I had to meet him and I, I was just like, hello, Mr. Gibson. Hello. And he was like, where are you bending down? I was like, I was like, what do I do?
Speaker 4: (36:00)
Because you're quite tall. You're, you're like five 10 or something
Speaker 3: (36:03)
Like five, nine. Yeah. And, uh, it was really funny because I was the bank teller and they had me in a ditch and him on an Apple box,
Speaker 5: (36:16)
Of course, these things that you can solve. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: (36:20)
And so we would be doing the scene and, and he was he's really, he was really flat on set and we would just be joking around. And like, for that little tiny scene, it took eight hours because he just kept joking around. And then like, when they'd say like, okay, uh, let's take five minutes, a little break. He'd be like, Hey, I'm going to go outside. And then I'd be like, sure. And so we'd be walking, he's on one side of the, the bank thing and I'm on the other. And so he's like up here, I'm down here. And then as we're walking, it just slowly went like this.
Speaker 5: (37:02)
That's a great story.
Speaker 4: (37:04)
That's hilarious. I, I, you're the first person to, um, say something like that about Jane alderman. And yeah, I'm so happy to hear it because I, I hated Jane alderman, may she rest in peace? And I, uh, felt, uh, you know, very alone in that everybody else seemed to really love her, but she had a way, I mean, talk about competition. She was competing with all of us in this. It was so bizarre. I mean, since her I've experienced casting directors to be, they are your champions. They want you to do well. They want you to make the job of casting this role easier. Um, whereas I felt like Jane, if she didn't personally, like you, she really wanted you to fail.
Speaker 3: (37:54)
It was, yeah. They were, there were times, especially in that class where I just kind of, I don't know. I got this a lot though in different classes with different teachers of them wanting to make me something that I wasn't, and I really just wouldn't stand for it. And, um, I remember once in Shakespeare class, they're like, I can't remember her name, but teacher Susan Lee. No, not Susan.
Speaker 2: (38:38)
The red-headed one Trudy Kessler, not Trudy it's. I know who you're talking about. Chris, Christine, Christina Derry.
Speaker 3: (38:48)
Um, yes, she, she was like, you're gonna your, for your final, your final, the monologue you're doing is Juliet. And I was like, when would I ever be auditioning for Juliet? That's not me. And she was like, you need to, you need to find it in you. And I'm like, I would never get even cast as Juliet. I wouldn't even audition for Juliet. I would just wouldn't. And she was like, well, that's your final. And I was like, going out of my mind, I was like, how am I going to even do this? And so then she was like, and you have to wear a skirt and you have to, I was like, I don't do that. You know? And so I, I got the skirt that looked kind of like, um, camouflage and I wore combat boots.
Speaker 2: (39:52)
I think I remember this, I think I do too.
Speaker 3: (39:55)
And a tank top. And I was like, I was like, I was like the busiest Juliet in the world. I was like, Romeo, Romeo, what?
Speaker 2: (40:12)
No.
Speaker 3: (40:16)
And I look over and like, Christina, there's just like in the corner and this is the final. So like, all the professors are right there and, uh, yeah.
Speaker 2: (40:29)
Oh, yes. We had to do our finals in front of everybody. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (40:34)
Yes. Don Elko was like,
Speaker 2: (40:42)
He'll be doing in front of each other too. Or was it just the teacher? Oh my gosh. I remember John Jenkins had a, like a
Speaker 3: (40:50)
Don Jenkins. Loved it. He was like,
Speaker 2: (40:57)
He had like a code, how he took notes, because if you were sitting next to him, he, you know, so he had this certain way that he took notes where you couldn't read what he was saying until this moment. I completely forgot about doing finals and in front of the faculty. And was it that we always had to do a scene on a monologue? Or we had showcased, we had like a secret.
Speaker 3: (41:20)
Yeah, we had, sometimes it was scenes. Sometimes it was monologues. Um, and I know Christine wanted to fail me on that one. And I think that, uh, other faculty members were like, well, I thought that was very ingenious. No, no. As soon as you can feel me. And, um, but she was, she was quite upset with me, but I liked that. I was like, well, you're going to make me do Juliet. This is my Juliet. Yep.
Speaker 4: (41:54)
Yeah, no, that was, I mean, and another thing that's always been true about using you've always been very self-possessed and that comes up a lot in this podcast too. Like how, how the, how the school itself dealt with people who already knew themselves before they came into the school because a boss and I both feel that we didn't know ourselves at all until way, way, way after graduating. And that, that, um, quality in us worked for them because they liked supplicants. Um, and, but, but it didn't help us, you know, ultimately what wasn't, wasn't very helpful to us.
Speaker 3: (42:39)
That's interesting that you say that because what I remember of you too is especially you, Jen, uh, I mean, you would walk into a room and just be like, yeah, like you were like, do this and Gina, you were always like, I know what I'm doing. Wow. That's how I saw you guys. I thought you guys were very, very powerful people, which you are, Oh,
Speaker 4: (43:16)
It could be that you are a person who just sees right through to the middle of somebody, you know, whereas I think, um, and acting is not, not really about that. It's not really seeing right through to the middle of somebody. It's more absurd, you know, doing what what's being observable on the outside. Um, so yeah, maybe that's one of your special,
Speaker 2: (43:40)
I think that's your super power. I think you're able to see past the weirdness of the outside and to what is really happening with the person, which makes sense, based on the work you do now, and with both humans and animals, um, it's sort of seeing the essence of people and believing the, sort of the core goodness of them or the core power that they have, you know, the power inside that they have because yeah, yeah. That, that's your superpower, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (44:11)
Oh, wait. I used to work with, um, homeless teenagers, um, as a counselor and even with them, they you're, I'm talking like kids that have been living on the street five years, you know, um, been foster homes and abused and all this. And I think what I really loved about that job was to, was exactly that. So to find that peace inside of them, that was so brilliantly them and just bring that out and let them have something to shine because they, they didn't believe that they had anything. And I'm like, and it was like my competition with myself. Like, no, you're going to find it in every single one. Wow. And, um, even the ones that you don't like,
Speaker 4: (45:15)
It was very hard to do.
Speaker 3: (45:17)
And I was like, no, I will find the positive in you. And I try to do that with, with everyone is like, everyone's got something very, very special. And so if I can concentrate on what's special and beautiful and unique about you, then I can't help it. Like you.
Speaker 4: (45:37)
Yeah. I think I got you derailed viewer when you, because when you told the Mel Gibson story, I think you were going to tell us that was your first movie. That was your first experience. That, is that what led you to LA or how did that work?
Speaker 3: (45:53)
Yep. Um, well I did that and then, um, I had a breakup relationship breakup and, um, I just felt like it was, it was time to give it a shot because, um, I got scared when we did our showcase in LA, um, because I did get a lot of calls and, and then someone, someone made a very racist remark, um, someone in my class and, uh, it was, uh, I won't say any names, but she hadn't gotten any calls. And so like, we were all pitched in for a rental car and we were helping each other, you know, like, no, I'll drive you here and this and that and this and that. And I was going out a lot and she got very upset and she said, well, the only reason that she's getting so many calls is the same reason that she never got any warnings in school cause she's black.
Speaker 3: (47:09)
And I was like, okay. And then I got an offer that they said, we want to write you into this show. You're going to play the leads best friend. I was like, the part's not even, they're like, no we're writing you in. You don't have to audition. You don't have to do anything. I was like, well, what about what I really? And they were like, Nope, we're going to get you an apartment. And um, you know, give us all your contact information in Chicago. We'll have everything packed up for you and moved out. And I was just like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. And then the part of me that is not secure, made up a reason in my head to not take it. Totally. I was like, that's a stupid show and it's not going to last very long. Well, they went on for nine seasons. Again, another reason why, you know, when you have those things that you think back on and you're like, wow.
Speaker 4: (48:26)
Yes, yes I do.
Speaker 3: (48:29)
Yeah. So I did that.
Speaker 4: (48:32)
Would you have wanted to be on the show? I mean, did, did you really think it was stupid or yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (48:39)
I did think it was stupid. You know, that's not, that's not made up. I did think it was stupid. And so I look back on it and I either have days where I just want to kick myself, but then I also have other times when I look back on it and I'm really proud of myself because I don't think I would have been happy,
Speaker 4: (49:05)
But you did do a lot of TV. Right. And they, I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't know that you were a serious regular for nine years on anything, but you did, I've done a lot of, a lot of television. Do you still?
Speaker 3: (49:20)
No. No. I got really tired of television. Um, it's so bland, like in my opinion, um, it's all about, you know, hitting your Mark and finding your light and literally like a piece of tape down on the floor. And they're more concerned about that piece of tape then if you can actually act and, um, it's mainly about what something looks like versus what can you really bring to the script? Um, and again, it's so like cookie cutter, it has to be done the same way every single time that it dah, dah, dah. And, um, there's no, I just felt like there's not life in it. Um, much prefer the stage.
Speaker 4: (50:23)
Have you done theater in the, since since theater?
Speaker 3: (50:29)
Yeah, we, um,
Speaker 5: (50:33)
Okay.
Speaker 3: (50:34)
I did a lot of theater in Chicago and then I did a lot of theater in LA. Um, I did work at the hot house with app Callie and Rob Adler. And, um, I don't know what that is. What's the hot house the hot house was, or is, I don't know if it's still running. Probably no, it's still running. Um, so I've colleague actually, David F Collie flew out to Los Angeles. He moved to Los Angeles and he started an improv school called the hot house. And, um, I know Rob was one of the instructors. There was about five different levels. And he had me in there. He had me in there as a mole because he was like, I can't stand Los Angeles actors in their ego. And he was like, I need someone to go into the classes.
Speaker 3: (51:37)
Like you're like a new student. And when I say something like, okay, I need somebody to get up there and be a German giraffe, get, do, go up there and do it. And I was like, so you want me to be your dancing monkey? And he was like, I just need somebody to get in there and show people like, this is not about what you look like. This is not about, you know, he's like, I want, I want these actors to be better. And that's why he started the hothouse because in the Hollywood, as I said, that machine is about what you look like. And it's like, this was fun. And, um, I ended up doing like, at the end of your, your class, like your graduation, you get to do, uh, I think it was like two weekends of shows and, uh, the group that I ended up sticking with, um, I think we went for a year and a half.
Speaker 3: (52:48)
Wow. And it was, it was so much fun, so much fun. Um, I think that, that was by far, probably one of my favorite shows I've ever done. And it was all just the kind of improv that we learned at school, all organic, you know? And, um, we would just have the, the craziest times it was, it was awesome. And the, um, I think there was one show where we did the whole thing in jibberish and opera. Oh my God. And none of this was thought up beforehand. It just happened. And people were like, when you were singing about your dying grandmother and I'm like, I guess, okay, you can interpret whatever, you know, it was cheaper.
Speaker 2: (53:50)
That's great. I have to ask you about, um, but I'm a cheerleader. I love that movie. And I just wanted to hear about your experience working.
Speaker 3: (54:00)
Oh wow. Thank you. It's um, it was a lot of fun and we're actually coming up on the 20th anniversary, 20th year anniversary. And, um, it's going to be interesting to watch because they're putting in deleted scenes. Wow. Wait,
Speaker 2: (54:20)
So this is something that other people can see.
Speaker 3: (54:23)
Oh yeah. They're, they're coming out with a director's cut for that. That's awesome. So I was all excited and I was like telling my parents, I was like, they're coming out with the new version. And then they were like, Ooh, we want to see it. And I've thought about it. I was like, Oh wait. I know some of these deleted scenes that's the reason they were taken out was because they tried to give us a rated X. Oh, the sex scenes that got cut out. Not just that. So, um, so I'm, I'm going to be really interested to see it. And it's really funny because a group of my rescue friends are like, I think we should have a viewing party. And I'm like, I don't know. Maybe you should watch it on your own and then not talk to me for a little while, but that's still
Speaker 2: (55:30)
To have your youth, you know, captured for eternity. I'm, I'm envious of people who did film and their youth, because then you, you always have a reference point. I mean, one of the things that we're finding is that we forget so much about this time period. And one of the amazing things about talking to people is different. People have different little pieces of the puzzle and it's helped us reconstruct a lot of, because when we first started talking about this, basically we didn't remember anything about anything we remembered like this teacher and that play and graduating case. And that was kind of it still we're kind of,
Speaker 3: (56:14)
You don't know. Yeah. I have vague memories of being in that, in the Merle reskin
Speaker 2: (56:20)
The whole, but it was like a lot, it was like the, it wasn't just the theater school anyway. Yes. But we're getting talking to you like hearing that. Oh yes. We had to do it in front of teachers. We had to do our Shakespeare monologues. I remember in costume and Oh, so it's been so good to, to hear that you're providing answers for us. Yeah. You're filling in the blanks.
Speaker 3: (56:44)
So a lot about school. Um, a lot. I remember freezing my off. Um, and half of those classrooms, cause there was no heat. I remember, um, you know, movement to music. I used to call it spontaneous sex on sweaty mats.
Speaker 2: (57:06)
Right.
Speaker 3: (57:09)
I remember teachers that hated me and we're not in any way, shape or form afraid to show it. Um, I remember actually kind of wrestling one of them and flipping it, but like literally yeah.
Speaker 2: (57:32)
In what context
Speaker 3: (57:34)
And movement to music. Oh, Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Movement to music with teachers. Well, he joined in,
Speaker 2: (57:45)
Was it, I know who it was
Speaker 3: (57:47)
And he came after me like this and got on top of me. And I was like, I remember cause I, he was like pinning me down. And I, I remember looking over and the whole class was like, I remember KB Kiernan's face. She was like, Oh no, don't do that to Kat. And I just flipped SAS.
Speaker 2: (58:15)
Wow. That's amazing. What are some of the other shows that you remember fondly
Speaker 3: (58:27)
There's Marisol the love, the yellow boat that was so much fun. Um, and you guys were so supportive. Cause I remember my grandmother died and I was like, Oh wow. This is where the phrase, the show must go on. Really kicks into play. And you guys were just like, we got you and we're going to get through this. And so thank you again. And yeah, that was a good experience. All about. Yeah. Um, what other places did I do? The women you were in the women? Oh yes. I was in the women. That was hilarious. Like I was like, I was always like, Oh, I can't believe I have to the little short shorts that they made me wear as the physical fitness instructor. I was like, Oh my God. Um, yeah, the women, um, I can't remember. Okay. Now I'm losing my
Speaker 2: (59:41)
That's. Okay. It happens. I'm telling you, it happens. We're telling you, it happens. People are like once, once the door opens and people get into this conversation, it becomes this weird thing of remembering, not remembering things, memories coming in and out. It's like this strange dance that we've in store too, you know? So you had teachers who didn't appreciate you let's say, but then did you also have champions?
Speaker 3: (01:00:11)
Yes, definitely. Um, Phyllis is like, I just feel like she's somehow related to me. Um, it was amazing to have a teacher of color, um, in a very white school. Um, there was, I remember Dorcas Johnson. Um, I don't know if you guys ever met Dorcas. Um, sorry. I get sad every time I talked to her about her cause, um, but she did, uh, a play. She, um, and it was all done in poetry, different poets that she had masterminded different poems and put them together in a certain way that it made a play and it was for black history. Um, and it was all the black students in the school, like all six of us. And Phyllis actually was the one who, because I was a freshman at the time, so I wasn't supposed to be in any place. And um, she was like, no, it's, it's important for a few do this.
Speaker 3: (01:01:44)
And so I got to perform with some really amazing people and Phyllis was, um, extremely supportive and um, and strangely enough, David [inaudible] loved me. Yes. I remember that. And he was a hard-ass on me. The meanest thing he ever said to me was, uh, in class I had forgotten about a homework assignment. And so he called on me to get up and do the assignment and I just made it up on the spot and he, he went like this, stop the was that. And I was like, I don't know. And he's like, sit down, don't ever do that again. And I was like, okay. And so I was like, Oh, he's gonna, he's gonna ring me. Right. So I sat down in his office and he's like going through papers, writing notes and I'm sitting there and I'm like, and he goes, you're fine. Get out. And I was like, wow. Okay. I was like, what is that to me? Yeah.
Speaker 4: (01:03:17)
Was his jam. He really liked manipulating people into having extreme, emotional experience
Speaker 3: (01:03:25)
A little bit, just a little bit.
Speaker 4: (01:03:28)
But you and the end, it was a positive. I mean he,
Speaker 3: (01:03:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And then I got to work with him in LA and that was great. So many times like somebody will say, Oh, have you seen this TV show? It's so great. And they sh they put it on for me. Cause I don't have a TV. You put it on for me. And I'm like, Oh, that's my friend. Oh, that's my friend too. Oh, I worked with that person and it it's so cool too. I just feel so proud of everyone. Like I don't even, it doesn't matter if you're not acting anymore. Right. I love to see your lives.
Speaker 4: (01:04:09)
I have a funny story to tell, uh, my kids make fun of me because I'm always, like I went to college with that person. I went to college with that person and we were watching the super bowl. And I had just seen somebody in a commercial that I don't remember now who it was. And, and then the commercial changed and my son said, did you go to school with him too? And it was John Hogan acre doing the bare dilly dilly actually. Yes,
Speaker 3: (01:04:45)
Actually. Yes, yes I did. Yes I did. Yeah. There was one time that I started crying actually because, uh, somebody who's like never seen the show heroes and I was like, no, they're like, Oh, I think you would love that show. So we're watching it. And then the episode comes on where there was like three or four people that I knew in the same episode. And I was just like,
Speaker 4: (01:05:11)
Leonard, Leonard Roberts is in that show. Right.
Speaker 3: (01:05:16)
And, uh, Kim was in it, um, like all these people that I knew. And I was just, I mean, literally I, I felt like I wanted to jump into the TV and just play with them. And that was like, you know, it's like, um, I don't know. It made me really miss acting. And I don't know, but I mean, I guess we're always acting so
Speaker 1: (01:05:43)
In a way, yeah. I survived theater school,
Speaker 3: (01:05:57)
Undeniable in production, Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts this episode was
Speaker 1: (01:06:03)
Produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible]
Speaker 3: (01:06:06)
Follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter.
Speaker 1: (01:06:11)
W R I T Y that's undeniable. Right without the [inaudible]. Thanks.
program note: this episode was recorded two months ago and avid listeners of ISTS may note that we discuss things on the episode chronologically for the first time but that would be followed by subsequent conversations that are in episodes that have already aired (whew that was a confusing sentence to write)
Intro: Biopics are not for the living.
Let Me Run This By You: Love languages and a pharmacy apparel update.
Interview**: We talk to Mary Kay Cook about being a working child actor, not finding bliss in LA, helping Nick Bowling with his scenic project, Epsom Downs, The Roar of the Greasepaint the Smell of the Crowd, Desdemona, The Women, Macbeth, being the Tampax girl, Early Edition, Stir of Echoes, and making the transition to producing.
Intro: Jen gets co-dependent with the Superbowl, Boz as a 7th grade alternate cheerleader, waitlists, Birkin bags, working at 2 donut shops, Gina has had 37 jobs, the top floor bar and restaurant at the San Francisco Hilton, the horrors of being a cocktail waitress, Lord Jones.
Let Me Run This By You: Safe spaces. Gina wonders about the origins of the quote "The arc of history..." and it turns out it was first spoken by Theodore Parker and was paraphrased by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Then Barack Obama quoted MLK.
Interview: We talk to John Bridges, Emeritus Assistant Dean and Director of Admission and Alumni Relations at TTS about the different iterations of TTS, why he got into the line of work he did, DePaul's fiscal conservatism, his experiences sitting in on auditions and showcases, the tribute video he made starring as the James Lipton character in an interview with Dr. Bella Itkin and Ric Murphy, Bella's book, how John learned from being in an environment that valued the individual and the ensemble, and how he started planning his retirement at age 13.
Intro: Imitrex, Ambien, night eating, the job of a Hollywood assistant, studio execs and hazing, performative equity.
Let Me Run This By You: Jen wants to get to the bottom of stage fright.
Interview: We talk to John Jenkins about the San Quentin Drama Workshop, Alexander Technique, Martin Esslin, Krapp's Last Tape in Berlin, Patti Rocks, Oleanna, Harmless by Brett Neveu at Timeline Theatre Company, The Doctor in Spite of Himself, Woyzeck, Waiting for Godot, Six Degrees of Separation, the magic of children's theatre, the diagnostic capacity of evaluating students' development, John tells Gina to "get a clue", demystifying the casting and cut processes, Nan Cibula Jenkins, and David Mamet. Also, we get John's perspective on Showcase and a great story about Kevin O'Connor. Plus, John shares two great Bella stories!
Didn't have time to discuss: Jackie and Me, The Boxcar Children, One, Two, You Know What to Do!, Still Life with Iris, Jungalbook, The Secret Garden, The Death of Gaia Divine, Lizzie Bright and the Buckminster Boy, Holes, or Video Galaxy.
Intro: Gina and Jen make a list of embarrassing things and read them off in an attempt to reduce their unnecessary shame! Stories include John C. Reilly, Nicky Silver, and Norman Mailer.
Interview: We talk to Allison Zell about choosing directing over acting, Savage/Love, taking acting classes to overcome piano recital stage fright, Grotowski and Towards a Poor Theatre, casting from the vantage point of a directing student, Insignificance, Desdemona, Soul Monsters, Best plays of 1994, her one-woman show Come to Leave, James Urbaniak, The Public, Joe's Pub, Suzan Lori Parks, She Keeps Time, running out of patience in the unpaid theatre scene, editing for film, Tribeca Film Festival, user experience design, jewelry design, Casey Childs, The Secret Rapture, Specter, Regarding Electra, Harvey, and reflecting on gender dynamics.
Intro: Screen-free Sunday, Planning ahead in projects, the charm of a child asking you for presents.
Let Me Run This By You: Mementos: Marie Kondo it or....be a hoarder? Holding on to stuff or holding on to stuff?
Interview: We talk to Dave Dastmalchian and John Hoogenakker about a special moment with F. Murray Abraham, finding friendship in a cutthroat environment, having substance abuse and authority issues, mind-f***ery, the cloistered nature of conservatories, using skills gained at TTS on set, taking an eclectic approach to acting, the tricky dance of teaching an art form, PR Casting, Does a Tiger Wear a Necktie, when William Burroughs discovered a copy of the Fledgling Press, a zine which Dave created.
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:08):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:10):
and I'm Gina Pulice.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:11):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:15):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:20):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:29):
So they concocted this plan to make A shelf in our library, like right above the door frame, that goes all the way around the room. So I am not kidding you. So, so
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:49):
Pictures, pictures, put them on the website. Okay.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:00:53):
Here's the deal though? My son, my, my middle child is so smart. He has never helped us with these type of projects before, because he doesn't really like, he traditionally hasn't really liked working with his hands, but this time he wanted to, it was really his idea. He wanted to do it. And he's such a math brain that he insisted on doing heavy. Pre-planning like he made us model, not a, he's calling it a model. It's not really a model. he's like got a piece of paper. He drew plans for it. He did all kinds of measurements. He used. Yeah, it was great. And he goes, listen, if we don't plan it out like this, then we get halfway through and we run into a snag and then we stop working on it, which is exactly what the oldest one. And I have done on a number of projects, including building a full-sized Playhouse on our back -Yes ma'am yes. Ma'am. I spent thousands of dollars on wood and nails and power tools so that we could have this joint project of building a Playhouse. And we didn't think it through one single bit. We, we found some plans on the internet and we went through and we made it. I got, we got all the way to the roof and the roof is what did us in? We couldn't, we couldn't get up high enough on the thing. We didn't have a high enough ladder and it's not in a great enough position. We couldn't put the roof on it, sat there for a year. And then it was time for the bar mitzvah, which we were having the party at our house. So we had to, and we had to take the whole thing down and we never finished it. So the other one goes, listen, we're I don't want to do that. I don't want to go through all this work and give it up. So he planned it and boy did he plan it with an inch of his life and it's going up and it's looking great. And I will send you pictures
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:02:44):
That is done. Oh my gosh. Merry Christmas. [inaudible] freaking Christmas. That's fantastic.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:02:51):
I have one other cute little story to tell you.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:02:55):
I took, well, I told her, um, I told C's, um, hummus story is Sasha and Chrissy and Tilly. Oh. Saw them from afar. Um, we saw them outside. Uh, they're amazing. And they laughed so hard. It was. Yeah. So it's for people that don't know. I mean, we've probably said, I'd probably made you tell it like four times, but you, but my version, this is how I tell it is that, um, your daughter says, mom, what, what kind of stuff do they have to eat in prison? Do they have like bad food? And you're like, yeah, it's probably not that great. She goes like hummus? They cracked up anyway.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:03:37):
She's she's hilarious. So, um, I was sick yesterday and she came home from the bus. Oh, earlier in the day she had -I was taking her to school and this little girl had these really cute boots on these little there's some, some, Ugg, type boots. She's like, Oh, I love those boots. And I S and she had said something to me about it before. And I said, yeah, you know, I looked for those, but I couldn't, I don't see where they are. I, I, you know, I can't, I can't find any of the information for it. So she comes home yesterday. Oh, this is so sweet. She brings me a plate with sliced up bananas, um, something else, and the little container of yogurt that she got in her lunch that she brought home. Cause this is kind of sugary yogurt that I never buy for her Trix yogurt. And she covered it in saran wrap. And she wrote me a note. I get, well, note, and it's a picture of the two of us. And it said, mom, get, well soon. I love you. And you, and it says at the bottom turnover, turnover, they have such, she goes, I got the information about the boots!
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:04:53):
I'm telling you. She's genius.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:04:56):
She writes, You can get them at col that's Kohl's or you could get them at Kohl's or, um, uh, TRG I T get at target
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:05:12):
She's genius.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:05:14):
She followed up this morning. She goes, so did you, did you check out Kohl's
Speaker 4 (00:05:31):
[inaudible]?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:05:38):
Hm. We've moved a lot. I mean, not as much as you, but we've moved a lot in the time that we've been together. 20 whatever years we probably moved, I don't know, 15 times and, or maybe less than that, but, uh, between 10 and 15 times. And we, one of the things that we lug around from place to place is a lot of mementos. A box of mementos turned into two boxes, turned into two boxes each. Now we have kids, they have their boxes. So we're at the point where not only because of this for other reasons, but we have to store all the mementos in a storage facility. This is the dumbest possible thing. I mean, it also has furniture from, Oh, it has furniture. But like, anyway, we store boxes in boxes. Probably those plastic tubs, you know, the big plastic tubs would probably have like six plastic tubs that are of mementos.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:06:40):
Wow.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:06:41):
Aaron has, you know, the, the little plaque he got when he won a tennis tournament in eighth grade is it's like a lot of things. Okay. I've gotten better at paring things down. But then when you have kids, you feel like you shouldn't throw anything away because they're the ones who are going to be going through your stuff one day and who are going to be mad. If you didn't save all of their stuff. Now, of course you cannot save all of their stuff, but like, what's your stance on mementos? What do you keep? What do you toss? What's -do you feel guilty about it, et cetera?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:07:20):
It's a great, that's a great topic. I, um, feel mixed. We have, so, yes, we've moved so much and we too have mementos. Um, there's the Marie Kondo, you know, that if it doesn't spark joy, but I don't really believe that. Um, I think people should, uh, do what they want to do for the most part. I don't subscribe to a minimalist thing, but I definitely feel like for everything you keep, you should throw out one thing. So, so, so that goes with clothes that goes, and it is really hard. Now, mementos are different because they have sentimental, they have sentimental value, but I'm remembering having to go through, uh, both dead parents' stuff. And most of it is garbage. Like most of them, most of it is like a lighter that my dad had that was engraved with someone's initials. That weren't his, why he probably stole it from somebody. But, um, but I was like, what, what, what? No. And it was a tremendous amount of emotional work to go through this stuff. And, um, yeah, I say get rid of, most of it. I get rid of most of it.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:08:42):
I mean, I think what it's about is, cause what, what I did with my dad is so when he died, I was right before I got married and he, so he didn't know that I got married or about any of my kids. So I think I really held onto stuff for kind of a long time, because it just felt like I didn't have time to grieve or process or whatever it is. So there are certain things that I, you know, you have your stages, like things you get rid of, like when Aaron's dad died, he came home wearing all of his father's clothes. He had his, and they were all too big pants and his shoes, well, that stuff has started to, it's been about a year, that stuff is starting to go away. So I remember the phases of getting rid of stuff. And it is something about like, you hold onto the, the stuff is like a placeholder for you doing your grieving. So it's like the more you do the work of going through the grieving that's then you, then you feel okay to get rid of the stuff. And the thing about what the kids is, I know something that they don't know, which is that it feels so precious to them now is not going to feel so precious to them. For example, when they go to college or move out and I say, we need to go through this stuff. Now we need to go through and figure out, you know, what you want. And I'm sure that they're going to want to get rid of a lot of stuff, but they also want to keep like, both boys did TaeKwonDo and went through their black belt. And the trophy for a black belt is like, as tall as a person, that's like five feet tall. Those are in storage. We went to storage to get out the Christmas stuff. And my oldest son, he picks up, he goes, this thing was really like a piece of junk. Like it's, you know, cause trophies are just made of plastic cheap metal. Yeah. So I, that was like, okay, you're going to want to get rid of this. That's a good thing. But with the smaller things, like really precious sentimental notes, I feel like keeping, but listen, not every kid or not, every person writes a card that's worth keeping, I'm sorry to say, but
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:10:58):
Right. And what you don't and what, and I think what you're doing is by getting rid of the sub stuff is what you're actually doing is making your kids job easier when we all croak. So if you think about it that way, like I act, but they should be allowed maybe one tub each.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:11:18):
Right. And we shouldn't have to worry when it gets no, no, well, they don't, they only have one tub, but then they have things like the trophies or the other things that they don't want to get rid of. Yeah. I'm feeling like what we should do is it is a annual or at least every few years going through making sure this is still so, because it, it was only recently that the older two wanted to get rid of their schoolwork from kindergarten. Wow. Yeah. They really wanted to. And that's the other thing is like, if it is serving some emotional need, I cut it off. I don't want to cut off, but I also don't want to, I know how it is with the whole storage facility. We got a storage facility that's bigger than what we need. We're just going to fill it up like a goldfish, eating too much and filling up its bowl
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:12:05):
And then their stomach explodes. Uh, but I was going to say something that you might do too, is if you're into any kind of ritual is w miles will burn. Um, we will burn stuff in a, in a, like a goodbye stuff. Like, um, if it's sentimental letters and stuff, now it, you know, there's not burning a kindergarten paper on, you know, aardvark, but, but if there's anything have some kind of ritual saying goodbye situation. Um, my sister and I, Oh my gosh. When we went to through the attic, there was a, like a 10 year period where everyone died. Right. And so we had 10 people's ashes. I'm not kidding you. My mother, my father, both three grandparents migrating at Ruth. It was crazy. So we didn't know what to do with all these ashes. We just dumped them in the garden. We are like, and we had a parade of ashes. We just had a ritual. We were like, goodbye, goodbye, aunt, Ruth goodbye. Then they all got mixed together, but we literally headed those cremations of like, not, it was like nine people, but I was like, so you don't want, you don't want stuff to accumulate that, that P that the kiddos are going to have to just go through and be like, I mean, the ashes were fine, but there was so much stuff that I was like, Oh my God, like pictures of people that you cannot name, those got to go. Yeah.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:13:31):
Right. What about though? Have you ever thrown something away? And then been like, Oh, I wish I hadn't got it.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:13:39):
But you know what? They were, it was bigger items, actually. Wasn't sentimental stuff. It was like, my mom had this, a couple of chairs and furniture. It was more big stuff. And it doesn't sound like you have tons of big stuff. Um, it sounds like it's more sentimental stuff. Um, but I, I mostly felt like that chair, I should have hold it. It held onto the chair and some of her of dishes and stuff like that. But at the time I was like, no, it's gotta go. It's gotta go. Um, so the other thing that I would say is don't, um, for people is like, don't make any decisions when you're in a heightened, emotional state, because you will save weird and you will throw out stuff that you will. So like, it's good that you go through it once a year. Not in a crisis, not in a, not, you know, after a huge event, but at like when you like a regular checkup to the storage place,
Dave Dastmalchian (00:14:36):
I think too, I just had this thought what I should do, especially with papers, take pictures, just take pictures of papers. I can, I can even make a book for each of the kids. Like here is five images of all the crap you wanted me to save that I didn't, but I took a picture of it.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:14:58):
Brilliant. You just thought of that. Brilliant. Yeah. You're a Marie Kondo in your own, right?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:15:04):
Aye. Aye. Listen, pursuant to our conversation about my home decor. I'm like, let's get rid of it. Let's get rid of it all. Like I have a China cabinet. I mean, come on. I, I, I mean, I have China. I have, I have tried, but I don't need to, it doesn't need to be displayed. Like, it's my prize possession. You know what I mean? It can just go to shelf.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:15:22):
I guess that, that leads me to the question for you is, and it goes back to our other conversation, which is, um, do you think you just adopted that because it's what you thought you should do.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:15:33):
It's 100% that, because I, yeah, I, I learned at an early age, like I remember being on the younger side and, uh, going through something, I forget what it was, birthday, old birthday cards and throwing them away. And my mom being like, you're getting rid of them. You know, she keeps everything. She keeps her, yes, she keeps everything. But I, uh, my middle child is my, uh, icon in this way. At summer camp, you send cards, you know, you're in current and they like to receive mail. So I sent a lot of cards and he received a lot of cards. He comes home from camp. This is not this past summer. But the summary for her, I said, did you get all the cards I sent you? He said, yes, I did. And they were so great. And on my last day of camp, I looked through all the letters that you and Gran and I gave him a kiss through with the trash. And when he said it, I, I had this Pang of like, Oh, you throw them in the trash. But of course it served its purpose. The purpose was to give him something to remember us by while he was at camp it, then it was over. Then he was going to come home and be with us. He didn't need to hold onto it.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:16:53):
It's not sentimental that way. No. What about clothing? Do you hold onto clothing?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:16:58):
No, no. I get rid of, I mean, I have my, I have my, I kept my wedding dress and I CA I kept like a few of the kids. Very first ones. These remember the onesies that you made, that you, you, we made at your house. I have the, I have not all of them, but I have some of those, but yeah, I don't get sentimental about clothing. Aaron does. Aaron has his high school, varsity jacket and his first pair of scrubs and his first doctor coat and all this kind of stuff. Oh, wow.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:17:30):
Go through your clothing. And you're not a shopper. You don't like to shop for clothes.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:17:36):
Well, I like to have clothes. I just don't like to shop for them. Yeah, no, I go through, I, yeah, I'll have, did I forget if you were here, you saw my closet. We have, I've never seen your closet. It's technically a walk-in, but not really. It was a very small class. I have always had a very small closet. I've never, I know that if I had a huge closet, I would just collect a bunch of clothes. So it's kind of an and shoe. So it's kind of a good thing that I don't know. That's one thing we sort of keep under control. We, I throw out something maybe like once every week or once every two weeks I get rid of stuff. Really? It's the other stuff. It's the stuff that I feel like I'm supposed to have because I have kids or I'm supposed to have, because, because really a lot of the other people in my life are very sentimental errands. Very sentimental has. My mother is very sentimental. My kids are very sentimental. So I feel like I have to keep all this stuff for them. But I really don't.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:18:31):
That was a China cabinet. Was that a purchase that you thought I should have this because I'm an adult
Dave Dastmalchian (00:18:36):
Or did you inherit it? No, we were moving here from the city and we were just both like, well, we need a dining set. And we went to the furniture store was the first time I went to like a real furniture store and they had a matching dining table and chairs with the, with a China cabinet and a, uh, something else. We've got three big pieces. It's all crappy furniture. It was a waste. It was expensive. And it was a waste of money because all furniture that's made past bef you know, since 1950 is crappy furniture, um, dining table. Well, it's big, but it's, it's really like wobbly. It's crappy. It's crappy. So I, I think I'm going to, maybe after the holidays, get rid of the China cabinet, whole King thing. Like it doesn't give me any joy to look at it. It doesn't give, it's just like, here's where we put all the crap that we use on Thanksgiving.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:19:33):
Right? It's more of a storage. It's not a showcase for anything special. What you need to do is get so many snow Globes that then you've got you put those in there, maybe, but that's a huge, you don't really need maybe a different kind of case for the snow Globes.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:19:48):
Something like that would give me joy, some little bauble, something like that. It's just plates and vases and, and somebody who is in my family has started a collection of something for me that I don't care for. But it's like, you know how it is, the person really wants to collect something for you. And they pick something. They, they have something that they collect and then they go, well, would you like a different version of this thing? I collect it. And you know, and I remember saying once, like, Oh, that's pretty. And next thing I know I've got my, what she considers to be my version of her thing. This is not my mother. I have to feel like I have to say this because this is not my mother. And it's, it's stuff that I feel that I have to make sure is out for when this person comes to my house.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:20:43):
Understood, understood. I don't, you know, I think everyone like dead in my family. So I, I, I get free from some of that, like, but I do. There's a part of me that goes, Oh, someone is thinking about you that's collecting something for you. It just, maybe they would ask them if they could collect. You know, I don't know
Dave Dastmalchian (00:21:05):
To me that the collecting impulse, I don't relate to it. I mean, with the exception of maybe that I like these pretty snow gloves, I I'm not, I don't collect anything. And my mother collects everything. She does. She does. She collects, she has a China pattern. She does a crystal pattern. She collects, um, she's a big reader. So she collects books. She, yeah,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:21:35):
I remember I remember the house on Wayne, right? And it was a duplex. It was a two floor. She had a lot of nice stuff. She had a lot of nice stuff.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:21:44):
It is, it's all very nice, but it's, it's stuff. It's a lot of stuff. And I'm just finding that. I'm not as into stuff. As I thought I was,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:21:53):
Well, I think the pandemic has done that to people too. It has increased for me. Anyway. It has increased my awareness that like, all this stuff is not going to save us from certain things.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:22:06):
Not from nothing. It's not going to save you from anything and you have to clean it and you have to store it and you have to move it. And you have to, you feel, for some reason you have to replace it. If it gets broken, like it's just a yoke, it's a yoke. And Aaron and I fantasize. When the kids leave, we're going to get a studio apartment. We're going to have no possessions. And we're going to just do whatever we want. That doesn't have anything to do with buying, maintaining, or storing stuff of anything.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:22:38):
That's brilliant. I think that is a great plan. D my only caveat is please do it in California. That's all I have to say. Yes, yes.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:22:58):
Today on I Survived theater school. We have the fancy friends, Dave Dastmalchian and John Hoogenakker. I call them fancy friends because that's what they are. They are fancy. They work. And they work all the time and they're delightful human beings literally think,
Dave Dastmalchian (00:23:13):
and they have fancy last name. I was making the episode art. I'm like, Oh, this is, of course these two have to have the longest, last name so that they really do. I've ever had. We'll just call him Dave. You guys have seen. Yeah. And you guys have seen them. I mean, not necessarily together, but, um, uh, Dave was his first film role was in, uh, the dark night. So he, I would love to have him back Sometime and ask about Heath ledger, because I bet that he's got a lot to tell about that anyway. So Dave has a, mostly a film career. He's also a screenwriter. He has written a few films that are excellent, including, um, Animals and, uh, All Creatures Here Below two excellent films. And John is a lot on television.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:24:07):
Gotcha. Uh, he was on Jack Ryan as one of the big, big leads. And he, and they're in an outstanding film called Teacher together. So that's something
Dave Dastmalchian (00:24:18):
Right. And the two of them wanted to do the interview together because they're such close friends and they shared a lot of memories. And it was interesting to have as it's our first duo. It was interesting to explore their friendship as a way that they both survived theater school. So please enjoy Dave, the small shin and John who can anchor.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:24:40):
You got to call her up again and ask her to do all right.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:24:44):
I'm going to make a note of that right now. Anyway. Congratulations, John and Dave, you survived theater school. No, not barely. You guys. I think you both had excellent theater school careers, but I'd like to hear it from you.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:25:06):
Uh, w I'm so glad that you're our first duo that we've had on today. The fancy friends. And I wanted to know about your experience, like together as well as a part, but like my first question for you is, did you love each other right away?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:22):
I don't, I don't know. John, did you
Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:26):
Well, for sure,
Dave Dastmalchian (00:25:30):
Gina the longest and by the way, so good to see you. It's only been 20 years like this. I mean, we've, we've messaged and emailed a lot, but Jesus, this is amazing. Oh my God. Uh, so I was roommates with Gina and we were very close and then I left school for a year. And so the school moves forward. Jen, you and Gita were in the same grade. You guys all moved forward. And when I came back, it was a whole new group of people to get to know. And John, um, was one of the first people that I knew when I got back. So I felt very out of place. And, um, it was hard to come into because it's such a competitive environment and it's such a, um, intense environment. And I was both competitive and intense. So to jump into the fire with a whole new group of people, to kind of, it's hard, cause you're posturing, you're sizing up, but at the same time, you're looking for connection.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:26:27):
You're looking for support and it's, it's such a conflict. And John, I'm not going to get emotional today. I swear to God, but it was like one of the first people that extended such, uh, a kind generous since he's got that, that, that inimitable,
John Hoogenakker (00:26:46):
I'm a cuddler.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:26:47):
sincerity, which is what makes him such a brilliant actor. But he had that like, look me in the eyes in class and like, Hey, he has a little bit of a draw. Like I'm really excited. You're here. And I want to get to know you and I hope we get to work together. And then we went and hung out at his apartment soon after that and maybe smoke something. This is recorded, sorry, John. And then we watched star Wars stuff together and that was our bond. So that's my version of this story.
John Hoogenakker (00:27:16):
Um, no, God, we, we had a lot of fun. I have old pictures of you and I, and Iyisha and, uh, snuggling ghanaba, um, you snuggling and which I'm going to send you guys. Um, but, uh, yeah, we, uh, jeez, I just remember, uh, I remember Dave's, um, it bullions from day one, his like drive in his, in his positive energy. And I think, um, that is the thing that ha that has, that has been such a, um, such a driving force in Dave's career, um, is that he just never stops. It comes down to energy and positivity, and he's constantly pumping that into the world. And I think Dave has known for many, many years that it, you know, that that kind of stuff comes back to you. Um, and I think I was drawn to that in Dave, uh, yeah, from the giddy-up, but
Gina Pulice (00:28:10):
Also recognize somehow that he needed you to take on that stare you in the eye and tell him you want to get to know him vibe. Did you know that he felt overwhelmed coming back?
John Hoogenakker (00:28:23):
Uh, I D I think from my perspective, the thing that drew Dave and I, to one another was a sense that, you know, in the theater school at the time that we were all there was such a, um, there was so, uh, it was a lot of mind fuckery going on. And there was a lot of, um, I think a lot of us in the acting track, especially I know this was the case throughout the school wanted, um, positive reinforcement from teachers. And sometimes I think my perspective was that people were manufacturing emotions and things to achieve that positive reinforcement. And Dave, uh, just seemed to be Dave to me, which I really, really, uh, enjoyed and appreciated. And, um, yeah. And so I think that was, uh, that was, um, it was, it was Dave's, um, his, his sort of genuine vibe that I was
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:29:20):
Both of you when I've run into you. I mean, you know, I don't, I live in California now, but I've seen you like at PR and Dave ed ran into you, one set of Starbucks in Chicago, the genuineness is unbelievable. So I, I think you're both fancy and I'm sort of sorry, starstruck, I, but when I, but there is sort of, both of you have this sort of face to face, like, look you in the eye, I'm going to have an actual conversation with you. And I think that makes you not only great, great actors, but what's more important to me is great human beings. And I, um, I don't know. I'm just so glad you guys found each other and that you're friends. It's like, no, it's not. That's how I feel. Yeah. That's how I feel
Dave Dastmalchian (00:30:06):
The work and outside of our mutual, passionate love for the theater acting film, um, storytelling, character creation, cinema history, literature, like John. And I did kick it off immediately with a lot of, of, um, you know, kindred kind of passions for things which we all shared because we all were in that, that, that, that vortex. Um, and obviously we were drawn there because we had a passion for this stuff, but, um, you know, I've been through, uh, the ringer in my life outside of my acting career as well. And, and, and John was always one of the first people to show up and be there for me when I needed someone as well, which was you, you're not taught that in the, again, this is about surviving the theater school you're taught, um, that you're in the ensemble family mode during rehearsal. And it felt like kind of, um, during a production, but then it was right back to, you know, this really intensely bizarre, like John there's no better, I guess, adverb than mind fuckery of, um, and, and it was, it was, um, I'm very grateful, um, and, uh, many great, true friendships came out of that time because when you go through something that intense and that trying, but we, um, we, we, I would love to tell a quick story if I can, because we were kind of, we, weren't kind of, we were absolutely ups. We were in trouble a lot, um, because it's no mystery that I had a pretty intense substance abuse problem in college. And John had a pretty serious attitude problem in college. And, uh, neither of us dealt well with authority, although we loved being directed, which has always been a paradox with us. Like we love great directors that get in and like help guide us and shape things. But at the same time, we are the first people to, you know, get our backs up sometimes. And I, um, and I remember John and I were so frustrated that some of the people like he, he, there was this, this feeling of like posturing or presentation that always felt in authentic to us. And we wanted, you know, Chicago, we want to rub real dirt on our faces and smashed glass, and we're going to get in there. And, and we were doing a scene together from, um, uh, Glen Gary, Glen Ross for, um, second year, uh, scene study work with Joe [inaudible]. And it was so intense. It was the Moss era now seen at the Chinese restaurant. John is just needling into me to like, you're gonna, you're gonna get in on this heist, or I'm going to ruin your life. And we loved, like, we got into that so much. It was all space work. And we're in generally John and I were in, I was either in rave clothes or John was in some tide by Bob Marley thing. And, um, and so we had to speak special guests coming to the theater school who was going to do a scene study, uh, workshop. And it was F Murray Abraham. And, um, I'll never forget. We were all so excited, big fans. We go, they did it at a separate location on campus.
John Hoogenakker (00:33:07):
And it was where it was history of dramatic lit I think,
Dave Dastmalchian (00:33:12):
where nobody cheated. And he, um, he Through the fees that he was working on so quickly, and he was getting frustrated, like stop with the, stop with the presentation, like w Let's work these.
John Hoogenakker (00:33:28):
And he was also, he was also like not giving, like he would give a really incisive note and then would be like, all right, now, fuck off and do better in life!
Dave Dastmalchian (00:33:38):
He didn't want over preparation. He wanted this to be like a malleable Play-Doh Eve kind of moment where we could, so we were not part of that event, John and I were just sitting in the back row, probably like, just like, Whoa, this is so cool, dude. Like "that's F Murray Abraham!"]. And he looked to the crowd. He's like, is that all you got? Cause they had prepared. I don't remember four or five scenes.
John Hoogenakker (00:34:01):
Yeah. It was like, it looks like, well, it was like two from each classroom. And, and then we had like a break and the teachers were kind of looking around at each other, like, well, that's all I had. And that's all I got Dave, you went to
Dave Dastmalchian (00:34:15):
Slowik Turned to me and John and slowok. goes, "You guys!"
Speaker 7 (00:34:18):
You guys, can we do it, John? Can we do it here? And John's like, yeah, let's do it.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:34:25):
What else is in costumes that they've got their props that John and I hopped up with? Uh, we, we may do, right. We got a bottle that we brought from someone else's seen some cups. Um, and we jumped up there and we did this. We did the scene where F Murray had recently done the piece or he was familiar enough with it that he could kind of jump in and, and do with this. But I
Dave Dastmalchian (00:34:45):
Was so proud that day, even Though I knew what F ups we were. And even though I knew that I was, I knew that the work we were putting into and the discipline and the, and the, and the love we were putting into building these characters together and how much we loved playing off one another was, I knew in that moment, this is something I'm going to do with this guy for the rest of my life. And sure enough, we've gone on to do films, two films together, outside of school, we continue to collaborate. Um, I knew in that moment though, I was like, this guy I'm holding onto him for the rest of my life.
John Hoogenakker (00:35:18):
Dude, I wanna, I want to jump in because that was such, that was, first of all, it was, it was an amazing experience that we were like, we were like greyhounds, just ready to run. And, and we were also, we didn't realize that. So I'm going to, we talk about surviving the theater school. I don't know where to start, but more importantly, I don't know where I should stop. So you guys got to shut me up. Um, so, so, uh, I ran, I got that bottle from my roommate who drank Jamison, like all the time. So I ran across because we were in Seton hall, not Seton hall, but a sanctuary. And I got the bottle and I came back and Dave and I were getting ready and we do the, we do the scene and I knew, we knew that F Murray was going to just like, give us a note and dismiss us. So he gave us this note. And the w the one thing was I had been breaking up this paragraph that I was giving to Dave, you know, kind of feeling my way through it. And she kind of schmacting him and he was like, you know, this David Mamet gives you all of the direction you need with the punctuation, like Shakespeare. And you need to just drive through without taking a break, because that's going to give you more pay off at the end of the, at the end of the scene. And Dave and I looked at each other and we just started doing the scene before he could dismiss us. So we jumped right into it. And he had gone through all the people in our class that had been put forward. He had gone through upperclassmen, and that was the first group, Dave and I were the first two that had the audacity. Did you jump, take the note and jump back in? And we'll when we finished, he was like, that is preparation.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:37:01):
[inaudible] mother.
Gina Pulice (00:37:05):
I love that. I love that because what you're telling me in that is you each made a decision where our company is called Undeniable. So you made it, you made a decision to be undeniable. You made a decision to not let him, I'm sure everybody would. I, I'm not sure anybody else in that situation would have been willing to get up and go on and not let him deny you, not let him interrupt you. And you were like 18, 19 years old, which is like even more. So you, you both mentioned mind fuckery, which is a very evergreen theme on our podcast. And I would love to hear a little bit more about as you look back at this time in your life now, uh, and you imagine, cause some of our professors were probably the age then that we are now, what do you make of some of this? How have you reconciled some of what you now consider to be mind. Great. Did it feel like a mind fuckery then, or does it just look that way in the rear view,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:38:09):
I'm just going to add a caveat, a quick caveat in that I teach at the theater school. So, um, I, and, and I, um, I'm trying to change the culture there a little bit. And so, um, I, I just always am really hyper aware that like we want, um, say whatever you want, that's what I want to say, whatever
Dave Dastmalchian (00:38:36):
The Vincentian Brotehrs called in the legal team, man, they're coming, you're talking to John and Hey, don't worry. You go first because I know.
John Hoogenakker (00:38:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I have no idea what I'm going to say. We're on a journey of discovery. No. First of all, to your point, Jen, like I know John and I admire him greatly. I feel like there's gotta be five of him in the planet to achieve all this stuff that he's achieved. And the theater school of today bears little, if any, resemblance to the theater school that Dave and I and you guys, uh, attended. Um, and that said, I don't feel like, uh, the mind fuckery that I, um, felt I was, uh, that I received was the result of, uh, some jerk cadre of teachers sitting around in a circle and being like, who can we -? You know, who can we shit on today? I don't think that's how it was. I think the difference was there was a, a strong, a greater focus on academia. At that point. It was like just giving your life to an institution and, and a philosophy and an approach to doing theater that was, uh, at that time intensely cloistered. Um, didn't allow us to kind of step outside of the school. And we all, uh, to a certain extent kind of knew what we were signing up for. When we came on board, I had been in ROTC when I was in high school. Um, I had competed in debate, so I kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff at the beginning. And I just kind of felt like when I was at theater school, as Dave said, I had a real attitude problem because I was like, I had to take on a lot of debt to go to that school. Um, my family came together and did everything they could to help me, but I, I graduated with a lot of debt. Um, and I kind of felt like, you know what? This is, I'm paying you, but like, we get to have a conversation about this. I know you're the, I know you're the pro I know you've been doing this your entire adult life, but I have questions. And I feel like I'm due an answer and a considered answer. And you don't get to just shut me down because I asked a question and I'm 19 and you're 54. Um, cause I'm here taking on a lot of personal debt that I'm going to carry into my adult life. And you owe me answers. Um, th th that's just, let's just call that an opening, uh, Sally and Dave, you can share it for a little bit,
Dave Dastmalchian (00:41:03):
Like, you know, it was the perfect place for me to train. The culture was a utterly complicated, complex filled with nuance. Lots of gray area came from a tradition steeped in some really, uh, important and impressive theater movements that were more, um, militaristic and disciplinary and really, um, intense. I'll always be grateful for the tools that I picked up in the theater school to this day, saved me on an almost daily basis sets because the awareness it gave me of my body and my voice, and, you know, the depth of my psychology to be able to solve problems on the fly and repeat, you know, emotional recreations, um, was really important. I will say that there were conflicting philosophies and approaches, which is, I think very healthy. One of the things I loved was that nobody said this is the theater school way. It was like, here's the Joe Slowik way. Here's the Bella Itkin way. Here's the David Avcollie way, here's the Rick Murphy way. You go to these classes, you see what works for you. You see where you're doing the best work, and then you have to grow up quickly and you have to be prepared for this dog, eat dog world of the arts that you're going to be thrown into. Once you graduate here, there is no, you know, um, kind of kind or gentle or entirely psychologically easy way to prepare somebody for the, the, the, the meat grinder that is the show business. And so for all those reasons, I was incredibly grateful. I think there were, there was a lack of oversight when it came to, um, mental wellness with some of the faculty, and I'll always hold them responsible for the fact that they allowed sexual relationships between professors and students. I think it's entirely inappropriate for people in that kind of power, um, in there.
John Hoogenakker (00:42:53):
It's unbelievable when you look back on it.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:42:57):
When I think back on the fact that I knew there were teachers that we were meant to listen to and respect and regard and trust with our deepest parts of ourselves who were seduced and having sex with students that breaks my heart. And, and I, I would tell them that to their faces today, if I could see them, but I hope they'll watch. Um, and I also think that, uh, that there was some abusive behavior, um, that I'll never understand other than they were human beings who, um, you know, who were just people that, um, were, uh, that, that, that did, that did some things that may, I like to, I like to believe that they thought they might've been helping push us, or, but some of the things that were either said or done, I go, man, that was, I can remember sitting with Gina one time. And I mean, I I'm a pretty emotionally fragile guy, but I was like on the verge of, of tears, of, of something that had happened with one of the professors that we both really admired, but also we both really kind of feared and, um, and it was just like why, but, but in all, I'm grateful because I'm not one of those people I'll run into people from the theater school who are just carrying so much damage from that time. And I'm so grateful that when I look back on my time at the theater school, in all honesty, it's with a lot of positive, it is I really go, wow. That was an amazing experience. Yes. I have anger, frustration pains about certain things that happen that I can't believe, but I do feel, I feel like it really prepared me for the world in which I'm working now.
John Hoogenakker (00:44:37):
I totally agree. And I, I, you know, I look back on that time and I kind of feel like what, you know, when I look at things that had that I feel like have gone pear shaped and that I was a part of, I always try and think about what, what could I have done better? And for me, I look back on that period. And I think that I was not, uh, emotionally mature enough or perhaps mature enough in general, to take on board everything that I could have learned, uh, as an actor. And I'm talking about like, uh, technique wise in that program, because I was so emotionally just kind of bombarded with. So, so much of it is, is subjective in the, in the beginning. And we're going into a career where, um, you may go up against four other people in your type, or maybe not in your type who were phenomenal actors, and you may get that job, or you may not. Um, and there could be any number of reasons why you did or you didn't and kind of trying to prepare a child. And let's be honest, if you're not in the master's track, you're still a child, um, for the realities and the emotional rigors of, uh, of what could end up being a career in a full life, doing that stuff would be the greatest act of compassion that an educational center could impart to a child. And I feel like the theater school was like that wasn't even a thing. Um, and, um, you know, I mean, not understanding why, you know, everybody probably makes the case of like, Oh, gee whiz. I was so talented in my hometown. And then I went to the theater school and I was like, Oh my God, everybody's talented. What am I going to do? But you still in class with folks, uh, you know, all these hours a day, all these days a week. And some people are, uh, become darlings. Some people do not. Some people back then, um, were kept on after the first year, after the second year. And some people were not, and there were, there were there, there were like major head scratchers about that, like to go back and to have completed two years and to be respected in the eyes of your peers and presumably in the eyes of your teachers. And then to get that, that letter that, you know, maybe this isn't for you to be able to, to make that determination in another person's life. And in that way is just, it's, it's astounding. That that was what we signed up for. And I'll tell ya, uh, I remember I'll never forget. That was not really made clear. Um, prior to coming to the theater school, like actually sitting there on the first day, I remember sitting cross-legged on the floor and listening to kind of talking, this is the greatest city in the mind of God and His being like, you know, some of you will Graduate. Most of you will not. I remember like, wow, that's pretty intense. Like I was not so clear on the whole half of you are going to get cut the first year and then half the remaining are going to get cut. The second year, that to me was like deeply, uh, ingenuous disingenuous, because what was really happening. And again, the school is a completely different school. Now they've dealt with this stuff. What was happening was they were bringing in free labor that was actually paying them shitloads of money to be free labor, and then kicking them to the curb. They, I think had a pretty good idea at audition, which of these four kids were actually going to make it to graduation. And I think we had some idea of that, but we were literally pitted against one another. I'll give you one example and then I'll shut up and let Dave go again. Um, we did, uh, an intro in second year, lot called Laughing Wild, and it was by Christopher Durang and it's a two-person so two hander, it's a man and it's a woman. And what they did was they cast four males and something like nine females and the director never set the lines. So every night it was literally these kids who still had not been invited back for their third year and could still be cut in a fucking verbal knife fight every
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:49:11):
This is fucking crazy! Yeah.
John Hoogenakker (00:49:13):
And you know, it was the director. Like I still had really long hair at that point. Pier said Jason Pierce had really long hair. Uh, Bryan Sharp had really long hair. And I think it was Hunter, uh, Andre. Um, and it was kind of like Ilko didn't really like our long hair. So it was like, you guys all have to look the same. That's what I'm going for. So we all got our haircut and then we commenced to like fighting over these lines. And what we ultimately did was probably pretty cool to look at, but it was also a hot mess. Um, you know, cause he's
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:49:49):
Totally, no, I mean, I, I think it begs the, so I guess the bigger question here for me and I don't know what you guys think, but, um, th 17, should we be doing this? I, I really, I mean, I know for me, I'm, I'm grateful as hell I went there. I was, I was cut and then asked back, it was a weird thing. I got a letter and then another letter. And then, um, so as a 17 year old or sick, I was 16. Like, this is so much mind fuckery inherent in the system. And w when we went there, I mean, we're all glad we went, but like man kids, I don't know that we should be, if I would, if I had a kid, I don't know that I want my kid to be engaged in a verbal knife fight at 17 with Hunter, Andre. I I'm just, I don't know, but that's, that's a big question.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:50:41):
I wouldn't put my kids though on the track right now to be actors because of that. But the reality, the harsh reality is that the business of theater and the business of film and television needs 20, 21, 22 year old actors. So to throw them into the best training you can at 18, 19, 20, 21, it sucks. But it's also like it's an exceptional calling to choose the path of the artist. And it's, it's a, it's a, it's more, you know, not to be, you know, uh, whatever ridiculous about it, but it, it, it, it, it is like it's, it's, so it's such an unfair, the world is so unfair. As we know, Jesus Christ turn on the news right now, the world is an unfair place, but the arts are so unfair. And it's like, if someone's going to it's, it's such a complicated question. Cause I do think like right at like 18, maybe that's the earliest. If my kid said, dad, I want to do what you do. I'd say you do as much community theater in high school theater and drama, as you can speech debate, blah, blah, blah. I'm not taking them to a Hollywood audition until they're 18. Um, and if they want to pursue it, I would want them to go study and train somewhere. Like what the theater school is now, you know, at 18. But yeah, it's really complicated. It is. Yeah.
John Hoogenakker (00:52:09):
I will say that, you know, I was, I was just going to throw this in. When, when I graduated, I got a job working at Chicago Shakespeare, which was started like a couple months after graduation. And I got on stage with, um, Kevin Goodall, Lisa Dodson, Greg Finkler, Brad Armacost, um, all these amazing, uh, classic classic Chicago actors, um, stalwart Chicago actors. And it was the first, uh, it was the first show in the, in their new space. Um, so they had all these great people in the cast. So I got so lucky to be, you know, a messenger in that play. Um, but that was when my personal education in the theater like really started. And that was when I saw like these Titans, uh, kind of dealing with the humdrum rejection of, yeah, I went for another one at PR I didn't get it. Yeah. But it went to blah, blah, blah. And he's a great dude, which is a thing I've always loved about Chicago. It's like, you know, you get to a certain age, it's always the same folks in the room and you kind of are cheering for everybody. You sit in that waiting room, especially PR and it's, it's always a reunion of friends. Um, but I, I, so when I talk to people, parents of child, actors on sets who want to know what I would advise them to do, if these were my kids like Dave, I mean, I kind of, I'm kind of like, you know, if they are still interested in this, when they're 18, I would take all the money that you've saved for college. If you've saved any and just fund their apartment in Los Angeles or Chicago or New York, like start them off when they're that early, because they're four years ahead of the rest of the pack when they graduate. And they will have spent that four years learning at the feet of actual working professionals.
Gina Pulice (00:54:08):
Yeah. Well, the truth is when somebody wants to be this from the time they're five years old, which probably all of us did, there's no stopping them. I mean, we've heard stories of parents saying, please don't call, study theater, please do something else. And they're going to do what they're going to do, but so let's bring it back to when you guys decided you wanted to go to a conservatory for college. Was that something you knew all along? Did you figure it out later? How did you pick DePaul?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:54:37):
For me, it was, it was, uh, it was the, it was fate. It was, um, you know, it was truly fate. I mean, it was, it was like a miracle of God. And to me, God works through teachers. It was the power of teachers. I, um, my parents were a mess throughout my, you know, junior high and high school years where I was very much on my own in a lot of regards. And I was a high functioning, um, academically, you know, in the, in the, in the, in a good tier. Um, but I was really, uh, excelling in both speech and football. Those were kind of my two strengths coming through high school. And I didn't see the path towards, um, the academic dreams that I had for college, um, in, in speech or acting or drama for God's sake, but I did through football. So my dream was going into my senior year of high school. I was going to be as yoked as possible, play the best game I could play, get us to state, get a scholarship to go to a better school than I could go to that I knew was at my hands with the amount of money that my mom and I had. And with that scholarship, I was going to try and become a high school football coach who, who ran the drama club. That was my dream for myself, two teachers, my speech coach and our drama teacher said to sat down with me separately and said, you have something you, we will help you if you're, if you're afraid of applying to like arts programs or theater or following a track and drama and hearing that was mindblowing. And they did, they helped me do the research. I looked at SMU, NYU and DePaul. I did a regional audition and then ultimately up to Chicago and my audition was in front of John Jenkins and John Watts. I'll never forget. I was there in cutoff, Jean shorts, a tie dye, Janis Joplin t-shirt and my football socks. And there was a bunch of kids in leotards and jazz shoes who knew what they meant when they were saying things. I did it, my, my monologue was completely wrong. They said, don't do a dialect that I did, uh, a scene from Equis. And then they, we said, don't do a dialect. And I luckily remembered does a tiger wear a neck tie? And I just threw that out there. And it was fate. It was God, it was whatever you choose to believe. But then I got a letter, uh, very soon after that, that, and I was miserable thinking about playing four years of college football. That's important to note, I did not want to do that, but I knew it was a means to an end. My brother was a collegiate athlete and I knew the demands of that and that, that was going to be my life for four years. But for me to get the education I wanted, it was worth it. Um, and I got this letter that not only had I been invited to participate in the theater school program, but I had also been given this, um, this, this huge scholarship, uh, called the Stanley and
John Hoogenakker (00:57:35):
Good for you, Dave, we're all happy for you.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:57:39):
That's my story. I'm done as John, just going into the story about the buckets. Hey, I left school with a massive amount of Debt as well because my scholarship did not cover living expenses. That's why I had to leave theater school for a year to go
John Hoogenakker (00:57:58):
Dave. Yeah. Dave wanted to live in a four bedroom, three bathroom.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:03):
Gina can tell you where we lived on Lill. What was Our landlord's name?
Gina Pulice (00:58:11):
Earl Pionke!
John Hoogenakker (00:58:15):
was Lill, the place. It was like right around the corner from healing earth resources? Like, yeah, that's the one where like a couple like, or an adjacent building had the, uh, the deck collapsed right there. Yeah.
Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:31):
And the tanks? remember the Space Time tanks, John. The floating tanks?
John Hoogenakker (00:58:33):
what's that?
Dave Dastmalchian (00:58:33):
Didn't we go do that together? The tanks, the, that the, the deprivation. The sensory deprivation ones?
John Hoogenakker (00:58:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, right there. One of the oldest ones in the city is right there. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for a, no dude. I'm so happy. So that'd be for you for getting a scholarship to DePaul. That's great. Um, good for you. Um, I didn't get a scholarship. I, uh, no, we, no, I totally very similar story except I was not going to be an athlete, uh, ever. Um, I was in, uh, I was, uh, in speech and debate in high school. I had not done theater since I was a child, like a younger child, uh, because I got, um, braces and my dad who was a, a local actor in Charlotte, um, was like, there's no, there's no market for a kid with braces. So then I was, um, I think at about 10th grade, I started competing in humorous interpretation, which Dave? Yeah. Um, and, and I did really well in that. And so then when I got to, uh, senior year, the drama teacher and I'd never taken drama at the theater at the, uh, high school, you know, she would, uh, she would accompany the speech team on debate trips. She reached out and she was like, Hey, you know, if you want to take this class, you can take the senior level drama class. And she, and my speech coach, uh, Barbara Miller said, you know, you should, you should check out some theater schools, see where you can study. And we, I looked into like, uh, a Julliard I was really interested in because I knew that Robin Williams had gone there, but I think it was more expensive to audition there. And I somehow missed the whole boat on, you know, I think a lot of people, I know Kelly, my wife, um, auditioned at, uh, in Chicago, but for a bunch of schools all at once. Um, and I, uh, I came in like late January, early February, uh, and we stayed, it was going to be a big deal for my family. So we stayed at the Palmer house. Um, and I went and I, again like, like Dave, I was surrounded by all these kids that just seemed so focused. And so like tuned in to this world that all of a sudden seemed very foreign to me and completely unattainable. And like, I was just completely a fish out of water. And, um, and I did, uh, my, my drama teacher had given me a monologue that was, you know, gonna be probably like, does a tire tire wear a neck tie or something, you know, appropriate for the location for the venue. And I didn't, you know, I, we had done, um, a musical called runaways and there was a monologue and runaways that I thought, well, it just really spoke to me. It was about a, a young kid whose mother had passed away. And he was kind of like just mourning her. And I remembered my drama teacher being like, well, it's your life? Good luck. And, um, and I came, came to the school and we did the whole, like, they let us through warmups, which was bizarre. That was Patrice, I think. Um, and then I did my monologue for like Betsy, I believe, and maybe John and possibly bill Brown. Um, and, uh, and I left completely dejected and I told my dad, I was like, well, that's not going to happen. Um, you know,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:02:06):
So I have to interrupt and say that everyone we talk to, I am not kidding you. Every single human I've talked to says, I left that place after my audition feeling like, well, I don't, I think I bombed, But no one I've talked to has been like, I nailed that.
John Hoogenakker (01:02:26):
Well, that's, you know, I that's so, uh, indicative of the way, like the vibe at the time, the teachers weren't like, they weren't there to coddle you and be able to good job. You've really nailed it. I think you're going to go Places said, no DePaul teacher ever. No, no, no. They certainly, certainly they do now. But, uh, but yeah, so we left and I had forgotten my watch. Cause, you know, you had to like all of a sudden, like I don't, I think I just barely remembered to bring sweat pants or something like that. Um, and, uh, so I forgot my watch. So my dad was like, I'm sure you did find bud. And so like the next day or whatever, he calls Melissa Meltzer and he's like, Hey Melissa, I'm wondering, did you guys find a watch? Um, cause John, he lost a watch. You didn't, you didn't find a watch. Huh? Okay. All right. Well, uh, thank you. And then she was like, so how does John feel like he did? And my dad was like, Oh, well, he bombed it. He did very well. I just wanted to make sure we got that watch before we Charlie. And, uh, and she was like, yeah, he's one of you we're sending out a couple, uh, a couple letters of admission right now or whatever acceptance right now. And he's one of them and I just could not believe it. And, um, yeah, it was, it was really, really great. But again, I had no idea what I was signing up for, because if it wasn't DePaul, it was going to be Appalachian state, um, or community college in Charlotte because I mean, I had, I had, uh, I was in AP classes and I had done well on my SATs, but I was not a focused student otherwise. And, uh, didn't have the scores to get into state or Carolina or any of the vaunted, uh, universities in my home state.
Gina Pulice (01:04:18):
According to my research, you guys did at least two shows together. Uh, uh, yeah, right. Um, I got the Blues and Peter pan, Peter pan,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:04:33):
The, uh, we did the, um, uh, uh, Glengarry Glen Ross scene together. And then our senior year when we were all very frustrated with the, with the, with the, with the plays that had been mostly, there was some really cool plays that were selected for our fourth year, but we were, we were frustrated collectively John, his wife, Kelly, our friend, Dennis Zack, a whole group of us got together. And we put on our own production of white check. Uh, we worked together, uh, doing that, uh, outside of school and performed at a coffee shop nearby because we were determined to do challenging work that was going to actually give us a chance to do something. So, yeah. But while we were those first four years, and then in the year, since we've done three things together probably or four, yeah,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:05:25):
teacher was amazing. Teacher was a good,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:05:27):
thank you. Thank you. I was so excited when, um, we got John, uh, it's just putting him into anything is going to elevate it. As you guys know you watch any TV show, any movie, any play, you name it. John comes into something he's going to elevate it. But I knew that that relationship I needed that character that I played in teacher had nobody else to ground him. He had nobody else to clean too. He had nobody else to like tu tu tu, tu, tu tu, you know, make me feel any sense of, of my, the characters, much needed humanity for the audience to get on board with him in those moments that John and I got. And John did a lot of stuff that magically woke up. It was a great script, but man, John took it to the, a much, a greater level, but just which is the magic he does. He did the same thing in animals. When I said, we've got to please be in my movie, please. I knew what he would do and sure as he did it, he walked in and everybody was just like, I mean, it's one of the best scenes of a movie that I'm very proud of. It's a 90 minute film filled with scenes that I love, but that is the scene I've probably gone back to, uh, more than any. And I go, God, really proud of the writing I did there, but what he did with little nuanced moments, I've, I've learned a lot watching my friend onstage and on, on, on set and I will continue to, I also watch everything he does obviously because he is my friend, but also because he gets to do a lot of really cool stuff. And, um, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot from, from you, John.
John Hoogenakker (01:07:07):
I feel the same way about you, man. You, I got to say, Dave has always been an inspiration to me because of, as I mentioned at the beginning of our talk because of the positivity that he puts out into the world. And Dave, you know, as he mentioned earlier, uh, went through the ringer with substance abuse. And, um, I think it's less than 7% of people, uh, who, who have been where you were, uh, ever come back. Um, and so to be one of those people who not just survived, but who thrived in an already incredibly challenging industry, um, is just absolutely astounding. And to, and to continually go back to the well and create, be a force of creativity and, you know, your own engine and guiding your own ship, um, while being, uh, you know, a partner and a father is, um, I, I feel so lucky that I've gotten to lean on you for inspiration and to call you for advice
Dave Dastmalchian (01:08:17):
Or, you know, it's wonderful. Like it's, I'm so grateful and that's another thing I'm so I'll always thank God for the theater school because of John Hoogenakker, and so many people that have been instrumental in my life. And I think it's important to note too, as far as the friendships that were forged in that time, um, you asked earlier too, there was some, obviously there were some teachers that taught me some wonderful techniques and skills, but also really hurt my heart in some certain ways. But that was it wouldn't be fair to, to neglect and not point out that like I'll never forget it. If there was one person who actually did take time to try, I felt like in her way to teach us ways of coping was Phyllis for me, she talked to me a lot about meditation. She introduced me to some books that were really instrumental to my journey, um, and like really wacky, like psychedelic stuff that I was really invested in thinking about at the time and really cool ways of trying to process depression. I didn't, I wasn't diagnosed at that time and I wasn't getting the proper help that I needed for my depression, but that was really, I I'm so grateful, uh, as well as, you know, the encouragement that someone like her showed, she was a needed angel at the time for me, um, in a dark place. Um, and bridges, I mean, I know he wasn't, um, you know, uh, faculty, he was staff, but that guy, um, recognized and saw some stuff that no one else was willing to address in my self-destruction. And he showed up for me way outside and above and beyond the, the, the roll call of whatever his payroll was or required of him
John Hoogenakker (01:10:03):
And his door was Always open. And as a side note, he attended your wedding. I believe Danny. Yeah. He attended mine down in Alabama and Dave's was in California.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:10:12):
He's uh, he, he was he for all of his giving and making fun of, and, and sideways remarks. There was underneath that, this deep concern and love for the students that, um, when I needed it, most was there for me in his is a dear and close personal friend to this day. Um, Oh, I'm all over the place. Now guys, my brain is spinning the coffees. It did, I'm getting emotional. But I'm thinking too about, like you talked about when we first did plays together and I'm just having all these flashbacks of me and John, like I smoked cigarettes. John did, did not, but we would go out back sometimes when we were at, um, like on the fire escape at the, at the, at the victory gardens where we were doing, I got to blues and we'd we talk about this stuff. It's like, God, just doing the shows was actually you're right. That was probably the best education we ever got was just doing the work.
John Hoogenakker (01:11:10):
You can hear it so you can hear it in Dave now, like some of the exuberance, But he was this guy when we would go back and we would be out back and you know, he'd be smoking. It'd be talking about Johnny. I love you, brother. I tell you what, man, we're going to do this. And one day we'll be so big. It's all gonna happen, bro. It's all gonna happen. You just can't wait, man. I love you so much. It's gonna be so great. And I would just be like, I just want to survive. And then when he made like the dude has made it happen, he has,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:11:43):
Oh, wait, I have a question. Oh, go, you want to go beans? No, you go ahead. Okay. I have a question about that because I'm always fascinated by two things. The sh the show quote, showcased experience in Los Angeles for people. I don't know why. I just love that because the stories are, so mine was insane. I had a run-in with John C. Riley that did not go well. And then.
John Hoogenakker (01:12:11):
That was the ONE negative interaction with John C. Riley!
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:12:15):
And I had it. And then also resilience. Those are the two things I want to cover before we, before we get out. Um, but my, my question is about that showcase. What the hell was your experience like
Dave Dastmalchian (01:12:29):
Mine's quick and easy. I was so strung out by that point. You guys, I was literally scrambling to find methadone clinics in Los Angeles, in New York where I could go get doses. So I wouldn't get sick from withdrawals. That, that was the, my top concern. I did a scene with, uh, Whitney Snead at the time who was, we were doing this, this, this, this, this really fun horror scene together that I thought would be a good showcase for LA. But, um, I got no interest, no check marks from anybody. And then, and then luckily, uh, somebody invited me, I got to go over and, and go to universal studios for the day. And I got to go to Dreamworks, which was cool for a minute, but it was completely unrelated to my audition. It was because somebody had invited me to go over there. And that was, uh, that was my big, that was my big, that was like, it was, it was, it was terrible. And I was very close with John at the time, but we, nobody knew. So you guys got to understand, I didn't tell it wasn't like John or my friends. They knew something was wrong with me, but it wasn't like, Hey guys, I got to go score. I was very good at hiding my suffering and which is what made it was so devastating. I know for John and Kelly and my friends who immediately came, you know, like when I wound up in Kansas, after I bottomed out in Chicago and they would come see me, he was just like, would say things like, I'm sorry. I didn't know. And I'm like, how could you, I'm that guy?
Gina Pulice (01:13:56):
Yeah. I lived with them and I didn't know. Well, Oh, sorry.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:14:03):
That was my showcase experience, which is yours and mine. Similar.
Gina Pulice (01:14:10):
What about yours, John ?
Speaker 7 (01:14:12):
Yeah, it was Denuzak and I were scene partners. And, um, we, uh, no, no, no, no. I can't remember.
Gina Pulice (01:14:19):
You guys did scenes. We just did monologue monologues. Yeah.
John Hoogenakker (01:14:23):
Dennis Zack. And I went later for a separate, um, for a separate event when we were like young actors. Um, but, but yeah, when, when I got out there, I, you know, I did the thing, I didn't get any, like, there was no love, um, for me. And it was, you know, it was, uh, I mean it was nerve wracking to do the thing. Cause you just, you're telling yourself at that point, it's like, all right, well, if it doesn't happen here, Oh yes. Hack the pumping gas or, you know, whatever. And, um, Kelly and I had started kind of talking to each other. Um, I had like, literally had seen her, uh, outside of the theater school one morning while we were all gearing up for, uh, for showcase and was just admiring her. Uh, and Denuzak me admiring her. And then he w he got, he did this thing that only Denuzak does where he's like, And then Shayna, like around the same time was like, you know, I really liked John and I want him in my life, but I don't want to date him. One of you girls, you should be you Kelly. Cause I think, you know, Ogden was, uh, maybe with Lisa at this point. Um, but, uh, so somebody by our two close friends had kind of, you know, pushed us in that direction. And by the time we made it to Los Angeles, we went to a house party after, you know, the audition day or whatever the showcase and John C. Riley was at the party, which I remember distinctly thinking was super cool. Um, uh, although the party just felt like, like we had all told ourselves like what LA was,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:16:08):
Oh my God, Kelly. And I wrote up with those Russian girls. Do you remember that at all drug stuff? And I brought like two Russian girls to that party that didn't even speak English. Do you remember that at all?
Speaker 7 (01:16:25):
No, I didn't see because Kelly and I were there for like, I'm not joking for like,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:16:30):
When you took off, you go to the hotel,
John Hoogenakker (01:16:33):
We were like, this is not, this is whatever, this is gross. I don't want to do this. And so she and the girls had rented a, um, had rented some, uh, convertible and we'd went for a drive to see the Pacific ocean cause Kelly had never seen it at that point. And so we're standing there in the dark, overlooking the Pacific ocean and I'm like super like shy when it, you know, when I was dating back in the day and Kelly looked at me and was like, now is when you kill it. And so the best thing for me that came out of the theater school is my relationship with her, um,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:17:10):
No. your relationship with me.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:17:13):
Yes, that's too. Well, you know, Dave right here talking, Dave always liked her.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:17:22):
Oh, I did a lot of scene work with Kelly. We never got, she's not really right here. You guys can stop. Oh, I really like her. She's the best man.
Gina Pulice (01:17:31):
So Dave talking about our apartment, brought up a bunch of memories for me that I had forgotten about. And I'll just share one of them with you now that is really touching my heart. Um, so the thing about you is that you always possessed yourself as an artist from, I mean, despite it sounds like you were experiencing a lot of depression and despite problems that you had, you, one of your strengths in my mind has always been a complete, no conflict or ambivalence about being an artist. And you taught that to me. And I never did any type of visual art in my life. And so we lived at that apartment and all of a sudden I got into drying and you were so, um, supportive of getting emotional. You were so supportive of me. And, and I remember thinking, Oh, I'm an artist too. Oh, thank you for that.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:18:34):
I, the nights we would sit up doing like continuous, I was so fascinated. Do you remember? We, we got really into that trip on like trying to connect our thoughts and connect our creativity together and connect our imaginations together. And I was so, so like into that idea, when we would sit up late at night, we put a fire on sometimes and we get the big piece of paper and we do continuous drawings together. A you just start working. And we were, there was a creative thing that was going on with us that was so rewarding. And you contributed to the fledgling press, which I still have. We published our own little Xen out of our apartment, um, that I would use the DePaul copy machines to get free prints. And then I distribute them all over. Do you remember William Burroughs' editor found one? And we got, I got to go down and, and meet Burroughs and, and all of us people who were like, Oh, I don't write. And I was like, well, but we did. So I'm glad that you have that memory. I think about that stuff often. In fact, I was just, I still have it it's right in my filing cabinet right here, all those old fledgling presses. And I was thinking about those days. And I, it's hard when you're a survivor of, um, near, near death addiction and depression, because it's easy to just go. That was that time, but we know that it wasn't, and it wouldn't have been what it was if it had. And I'm, there were even in the midst of that abject suffering, which came much later, by the way, it was really into the fourth year. And that God, that year after I graduated, when I, the candle finally like caught up with itself and then melted. But, um, that stuff, uh, was so clutch man. And like the improv group that we would do at Finley's and like playing together, Gina, like, um, I forgot all the musicians come play like their bongos in our living room and Spontaneously create poetry who knows, like it was great.
Gina Pulice (01:20:46):
We had a party one time and it was so cold outside. And I guess maybe we had no heat that we hung blankets, like in front of our door to try to create warmth. And people came to our party and all they could do is sit down and be under jackets and play like one 80 degrees inside of that apartment.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:21:08):
We survived. And I, I think the, the resiliency factor, and I guess you've talked a little bit, each of you about, you know, maybe the, that you were in, was it, who's the ROTC and that you played sports too. Where does resilience come from that you guys kept keep going? And sometimes it's spiritual sometimes, but that I'm fascinated by resilience. So there are so many times in our lives where you each were, all of us could have been like, you know what, Nope, bye. I'm not going to be an artist anymore. I'm going to, or where does your resilience come from? Do you think
John Hoogenakker (01:21:42):
Stubbornness? Um, you know, I, it's, it's super hard. And, and, um, I look at my career and I think about that, how lucky I feel that I am, uh, and grateful I am that I've been able to cobble it together and to make a living. Um, but you know, there are times when things are slow. And for me, so much of, uh, so much of your, uh, sense of self-worth is tied to your ability to, uh, provide or contribute. Um, but I think at the end of the day, uh, it's seeing myself as an artist and as nothing else, um, and being stubborn to the extent that I'm, I'm not, I'm not willing to let that go in the way that I'm not willing to cut off my feet and try to learn to walk again, you know? Um, it's just, it's who I am. It's a part of me.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:22:39):
I, I feel the same. And I know John, you know, express this in John and Kelly met at such a young age, but when I met Eve, it was like, when for the ride, then it's there's years where we're going to make $12,000 there's years that we're going to make $2 million this years we're going to make no, you know, it's like, this is, and, and, and, and, and I'm grateful that I've got the partner who goes, Of course, or you know, John gets the call Monday. You have to go to, you know, uh, Quebec to shoot a movie for two months. And Kelly goes, okay, let's figure it out. This Eve does the same for me. So we're very, I have incredible partnership. I have the stubbornness, you know, John and I have that shared kind of like, there's no way I don't give it. If I got told 99 times, no, I always believed in my heart that that was getting me one step closer to the yes that I needed. And I always tried to look at every moment in opportunity as, and also I think the gratitude that for me personally, which is different than John, but having survived, nearly dying and coming back my tray, you know, when I got my life back, I said, you know, God, I I'm all I'm going to do for the rest of my life is smoke cigarettes and drink coffee. I promise, I, I, if I can have, and if I could just have an apartment and a, and a TV and a VCR, and I worked like regular jobs for a couple of years, I mean, I knew John at that time when I wasn't even acting again. And, um,
John Hoogenakker (01:24:08):
Let me tell a story about you real quick,
Dave Dastmalchian (01:24:11):
Please, because I'm going to start crying.
John Hoogenakker (01:24:13):
when, uh, Kelly and I, we had a lot of Dave's, uh, belongings. Like we had taken them on board when Dave, um, crashed and had to go home to Kansas, um, Missouri.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:24:26):
I was on the Kansas side, but I was right there at the
John Hoogenakker (01:24:29):
Yeah. Um, and, uh, we were going down there to see him and we went and we took his stuff and we only got to see him briefly and he was, uh, beaten, but he still smiled. And the next time I think we got to see Dave was at Webster place and he was working at Webster place. And what was your job you were doing there at that time? Popcorn?
Dave Dastmalchian (01:24:57):
I was every theater five. Can you clean the popcorn spill and theater five? I was at DePaul theater school graduate with a BFA in, in the polyester pants with the name tag grateful to be making $11 an hour.
Speaker 7 (01:25:12):
Yeah. And the guys, the, the energy and the positivity you see coming out of dude right now was the same when he was standing there with the little dust pan on the stick and the, and the, and the, you know, popcorn around his feet. Like that was, that was all there. Right then, um, such a powerful, powerful force, man. Thanks, man.
Dave Dastmalchian (01:25:34):
Um, gratitude is, um, just can't stop. And I'm so grateful for you guys. I'm John, you know, I'm all three of you guys. Um, Jen, you know, you were there because you knew personally outside of all the theater school stuff. My, my therapist and the, this, the psycho, the counselor who helped me when I was in the mental hospital, Gina and I were there when, uh, when I was a baby and John put my diaper on and cleaned my little bottom and pouted it up, Sue gratitude is the best is such a great fuel for art. Because even when we go to the darkest places that we have to, you know, inhabit really nasty skins or really creepy characters that you think, how am I gonna, how am I gonna find any love within this? I think for anybody to connect with them, um, love is still, it's so important and it's such an important part of storytelling. And so for me, that, that gratitude, um, it's fuel. Um, so thanks guys. I'm grateful for today.
Gina Pulice (01:26:36):
Boz What did that, I wouldn't know. I know we have to go, but what did that bring up for you just now,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:26:40):
just like the idea that when Gina and I talk about this a lot about the fact that our shame, the things that we think are so shameful and so ugly are the things that connect us to each other in such a deep way that if we can, if we can sort of, um, not deny the fact that we're all connected in this way, especially having gone through the theater school and stuff, but even just human beings that, um, we can take the shame and turn it into something beautiful is, is a huge gift.
Gina Pulice (01:27:19):
Amen. Closer for sure.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:27:21):
Well, thank you guys. This is the greatest thing I'm like now I'm like, wait, wait, our podcast has to be at first. I was like, our podcast is just Dave and John. And then I'm like, okay, that can't be forever. [inaudible]
Gina Pulice (01:27:43):
friends. We will have to have you back. We will have to do a part two and three and four, but thank you so much. It's totally wonderful. And, and, and everything that you write, you said at the beginning, John, that like the stuff comes back, it comes back. Maybe it's 20 years later, maybe it's 30 years later, maybe it's five minutes. But the things that you two have clearly put out into the world are coming back to you in a way that is just makes you shine. And so shine on. That's all I have to say.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:28:18):
Thank you so much. You guys, for allowing us to be here with you together. That's super, super cool. Thank you. Love you. Have a good day. Everybody.
Gina Pulice (01:28:30):
I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.
Intro: predicting the future, oh look! another example of income inequality!, would you want to live in a tiny house?, Pioneer House, Colonial House, Sherlock, Clementine Dimmerswitch, Fort Atkinson Wisconsin. Plus! Miles makes an appearance in his lumberjack cape!
Let Me Run This By You: cancel culture, reconciling the artist with the art, Louis CK, Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor, Patrice O'Neal, can people be funny without being offensive?, Sarah Silverman, Amy Schumer, Bill Cosby, our comic sensibility is determined by the narrative that already exists.
Interview: We talk to Bradley Walker about being a terrible student, auditioning on a lark, being the son of a flight attendant, navigating social life in college, sleight of hand, working at Six Flags Over Texas, magician meltdowns, Detective Story, Lou Contey, sick John Bridges burns, Merrily We Roll Along, Sisterly Feelings, crewing for Emerald City and Into the Woods, voiceover work, the importance of a good partner.
Intro: Do we have to be a mess? Representation matters. When you weren't there they day they told you how to pronounce cashew.
Let Me Run This By You: Are you afraid of death?
Interview: We talk to Jen Ellison about not only surviving theatre school but going on to teach there too, the ethical quandaries that can arise when teaching ethics, differences between students at different schools, the handling of gender issues in the Gen X drama school world, Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind, Oliver, playing boys, Asheville, If You Don't Dance They Beat You.
Intro: Are we joining a cult? Undeniable Writers.
Let Me Run This By You: Is anything a meritocracy? Recognizing your own privilege, AOC, combo platters, creation myths, what would your cult look like?
Interview: We talk to Patrick Belton about being the social glue, expectations of a conservatory from a kid from South Bend, The Clearing, Antigone, Diogenes the Dog, Spring's Awakening, BW3, Goose Island, Ed Debevic's, the character of the fun loving hippie, being a DJ, mixtape etiquette, Gina shares one of her cringiest moments, Camp Winnarainbow, a surprise Trey Anastasio connection, the Gamehendge puppet show, following Phish.
*program note: Unfortunately, we were unable to record the audio for this podcast in the usual way so you will notice diminished sound quality. Apologies for the annoyance.
Intro: Fenty, plastic surgery, self-acceptance, Wild Wild Country, Paris Hilton, the Donner Party, where do you stand on documentaries?, feeling trapped.
Let Me Run This By You: letting go of unnecessary shame
Interview: We talk to Lee Kirk. The power of TTS marketing department, not getting movement to music, juggling too many things mentally as an actor, being young and playing old, being stuck in your head, how Lee got into writing, writing teacher John Truby , John Cabrera and a certain Panasonic DVX, The Man Who Invented the Moon, the horrors of auditioning, writing his own showcase piece, Sean Gunn's The Dumbwaiter, learning life lessons at the Chopin Theatre, directing for film and TV, The Giant Mechanical Man, site-specific theatre, feeling the heat in Avcollie's class, Acting with a capital A, Black Box Academy, and well-intentioned G.O.D. Squad parties.
FULL TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1: (00:08)
And Jen Bosworth wrote me this and I'm Gina [inaudible]. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
Speaker 2: (00:36)
You know, I look at, I'm sure there's like rubbing alcohol in there and
Speaker 3: (00:40)
That's one of their tricks is they make everything look like it comes out of a doctor.
Speaker 2: (00:45)
So people are like, Ooh, I'm going to get no bow tie. You know, I was thinking like, my agents keeps sending me. They send everybody, it's not just me like injectable auditions, which I never take because I hate, I have these lines, you know, like right there. My uncle really has them too. And anyway, I got them from my mom and I was like, maybe a little Botox, but the problem with Botox is like anything it's addictive as hell. So like, clearly if you look at people, they start with one little thing. Right. And then they're like, Oh, Oh, but over here. Oh, but here. And then they ended up looking like that.
Speaker 3: (01:21)
You know what I, what I, I also think about that. Um, you do it. I think people do it because they, they want to look younger, whether it's injectables or fillers or, um, having surgery. I think what ends up happening even to people who profess that they really like that. Look in addition to the fact that people all start to look the same, um, P people stop looking like themselves. And it's very disconcerting to be interacting with somebody who you knew to look one way and now they don't look like themselves. So in a way, it doesn't matter how smooth your skin is or because if you don't look like you, then it hasn't worked. Right.
Speaker 2: (02:08)
Right. And then it, and then it's very hard to have normal interactions. I told you how my friend didn't recognize her own mother after. Oh my God. So my friend, my friend used to, she's not really my friend anymore, but anyway, and she, she went to her sister's wedding and her mother had, had so much, and she hadn't seen her mother in a year and her mother had, had so much plastic surgery. Then when her mother was walking her sister down the aisle, she didn't recognize she didn't, she couldn't tell if it was her own mother. Oh my God. Like, it's, it looks like, kind of like my mom, but can you imagine that I would have a panic attack and pass out if that, if I didn't recognize my own mother.
Speaker 3: (02:50)
Yeah. That's like invasion of the body snatcher.
Speaker 2: (02:53)
You said it was the me, I think that's my mom. Oh my God. That's horrible. We all really
Speaker 3: (03:00)
Just need to like work on self-acceptance. That's the most beautiful thing. I mean, not to sound cheesy, but like that, if you really, and this is true for me personally, if I feel good, I look good. If I don't feel good, I don't look good. It's very straightforward. Yeah.
Speaker 2: (03:16)
Yeah. And it's yeah. And it's, it's not, um, God, I think we are so it's so simple. And yet people, we, we, we loved like, like our guests, Shana was saying, we love to be a mess. We'd love to make things more complicated than they are. We'd love to really get in there. And it ha we have to be this huge ordeal instead of just saying, Oh, let me work on self-acceptance. Um, and that brings me to I've I just was watching wild, wild country.
Speaker 3: (03:46)
Yeah. Tell us. Okay.
Speaker 2: (03:48)
Okay. So I was trying to watch the Paris Hilton one, but I couldn't watch a skinny person. I just was like, I can't watch the skinny person. So let me watch.
Speaker 3: (03:56)
She is so skinny.
Speaker 2: (03:59)
It's quite something. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but anyway, so I've said, okay, let me and I had never seen wild wild country. And I thought that I had, but then I was like, Oh, I have not seen this. So, you know, it's this, it's this movie about this. Um, it, it, this cult, um, in, uh, India, Poona India, then they moved to Oregon and take over this in the eighties, take over this land. But what it really made me also think about was the idea of documentaries, right? So I'm not sure I'm a huge documentary fan because well, or a true documentary fan, because I like when people have a point of view. So, so, so what I found Howard, and I'm not done yet, but I binged it yesterday. But what I find hard about wild wild country is that it's really pretty openness to, is Sheila the mastermind or is OSHA or he used to be known as the Bhagwan. Did he, did he, is he the mastermind? So it goes back and forth in this really sort of, um, ambiguous way. And I'm like, wait, just tell me is Sheila. And I think that's my own problem with not with black and white thinking, right? It's like, just tell Sheila the bad guy here or Sheila, the good guy. Cause I can't be going back and forth with these ideas.
Speaker 3: (05:14)
Is it that is it that you want, you have, you do have your own opinion, but you don't, you don't consider it set unless you have the idea that somebody else shares your opinion.
Speaker 2: (05:26)
I think it's, I, I think that's probably part of it. And I also think that I like, yeah, I like when people say this is what I think, what do you think? I mean, I'm sure it goes back and speaks to my codependent nature, but I also think that it's like, which I, yeah, I like being told, like this person is bad and this person is, um, but I don't know. I just, I, I find it infuriating when right. There are two sides are more than two sides, but two sides sometimes presented in a documentary and it goes back and forth and then I get confused. Right. And they're doing that. They're playing with your emotions. I'm like, Oh, Sheila, Sheila was really, she was the one. And then I'm like, what is she though? Wasn't she just sort of a victim of a misogynistic guru then? I'm like, no, she was really evil. So I think I don't like being manipulated. And that's the purpose. Art does that lot.
Speaker 3: (06:22)
Right. And it's both, it's both everybody. I mean, maybe this isn't true, but I'll just say everybody who's a perpetrator is also a victim of something else. I mean, you just made that you don't maybe that you don't know what the, their victimhood surrounds, but you can guarantee that, you know, because nobody's born a monster.
Speaker 2: (06:41)
No, I don't believe that.
Speaker 3: (06:43)
Right. Everybody, everybody gets there, honestly. Yeah.
Speaker 2: (06:48)
Everyone has earned their stripes kind of a thing. Right. And I think the, for the weird thing is too, like, there are so many people that like, love Osho. Like I didn't realize the Bhagwan became Osho later after he died. So
Speaker 3: (07:05)
I did, I started watching a, but I didn't finish it. So you'll have to fill in the,
Speaker 2: (07:09)
The bottom line is this guy, it's the typical cult story. Right. So, um, but it's like Westerners came, discovered this guy that, that, that they all thought was amazing. Everyone's lacking inside. So we're so looking for a guru. And, um, this is 1960s through 1990 and it's like, it's a typical story. But what makes it interesting is that this woman, right? That this woman became his quote, secretary, Sheila. She was from India, but she sort of took them and I haven't finished it yet either. I have a couple more episodes, but she took the fall for everything of this cult and Osho that the Indian guru man who changed his name. And I don't know the origin story of why this name changed, but Osho remained intact and is like a, and it just goes to, it remains a guru like in death and his books are, you know, and actually funny enough, the girl, the woman who I just said didn't recognize her own mother was a huge Osho follower and. And I'm like, Oh man, people still, he came out unscathed basically. And Sheila, the woman became this pariah. And I think she went to jail.
Speaker 3: (08:22)
Oh, I mean, that's, that's figures that just figures, but what flavor of cult is it? Is it a sex cult, money drug? What kind of a,
Speaker 2: (08:33)
Where they it's weird because, well, I don't know about weird all culture kind of weird, but it is a culture where they literally, you really buy in. They wanted to create a society based on sharing and love, but it then creeped into, and it was no, not a sex cult. It was a religious cult. So they all, they all, but, and it was a, it was a religious culture. They worshiped this guru, um, who didn't have a specific religion. He was creating his own, the new man. He called it. And, um, they got into trouble because the interesting thing is that they decided to move to Oregon and try to take over all. They started slowly buying all this land and the white or Ghanians were like, Oh no, you guys are, you know, not, and a lot of the, a lot of the cult members were white, but the, the head who was Indian and a lot of, some of the disciples were Brown and blah, blah, blah. So the Oregonian. So it's really the story of like this town in Oregon, antelope, Oregon, that cannot stand this cult being on their land. And that was the real problem. And then Sheila and got a little crazy and started poisoning all the Oregonians.
Speaker 3: (09:49)
Oh, she started poising them because she wanted their money or
Speaker 2: (09:53)
No one wanted their language and they hated her. And Sheila became, and they became so irate at the white Oregonian, old people. They started poisoning them to like, not come off. She was off. I mean, clearly, but I mean, they were not nice to her. They would call their names. I mean, it was bad. So, and they won, they set up this whole town and we were too young, but they like won the, the cult one and, and change the name to Raj Nish from, from the Oregon town became Rajani.
Speaker 3: (10:28)
Yeah. Cause on the other side of the country, they're doing it in Clearwater, Florida. It, it it's, it's all about your, um, it's all about your ability to manipulate people, how much mass appeal and charm you have. I have something to say to all the ladies out there, a guru is a red flag and it may not necessarily be somebody who's calling themselves a group. But if you start to feel like, if you start to feel like your attraction to somebody is that you want them to tell you how to live your life. That should be your first sign, that this is not. And as history has born out, if it does get to a certain, um, level, you're going to be blamed in the end.
Speaker 2: (11:13)
Totally. You are the scapegoat, like just know going in. If goes wrong, it's going to fall on you. It's not going to fall on him usually. And it's, and it, and it happened to her and she, and I'm, I don't know what ends up. She's still alive. Cause she's the documentary just came out and Sheila is her name and she's still talking and she's talking so she's alive. But I think she went to jail. I think some crazy went down. So yeah, I think, and it was interesting. It wasn't um, uh, in that it goes back to what we're we always say about cults and cultive personality, which is just an extreme, inner, longing to feel. Okay. And to feel protected and to feel taken care of, which is why do we do that with doctors? Like, you know, everybody,
Speaker 3: (11:56)
I just want somebody to have the answers. We're just looking for somebody else to, and, and, and all the other person really has to do is behave as if they do have all of the answers, the last thing. And you know, this from being a therapist, your, your clients always want you to tell them what to do. Right. Because they, they either think, you know, or they want to think, you know, the answer that was always a reaction.
Speaker 2: (12:24)
It was like when people would ask you that, yeah, my clients would just basically be like, can you give me money, a clientele that was pretty down and out, but they, but that's an answer too. It's like, Kevin took care of me, you know, can you, can you, can you be my mom? Can you be my, my everything? And it's and it's, um, and it's real tricky. It's like, I was thinking too about those, um, sperm doctors that ended up putting their own sperm in the sperm banks. And so, so that's a call to that, that I want them to. Yeah. So it's just, it's very interesting. I was thinking about like how far people go to, I mean, that's just really disgusting obviously, but it's also the same thing of like, wanting to be the believing that you have the power wanting the power and, and abusing your power. So anyway, so all this to say, I'm watching wild, wild country and it's, and it's bringing up emotions of like, I don't, or just the thought of like, as a filmmaker, do you document or documentarian, do you have to have a point of view? Are you not supposed to have a point of view? It's just interesting to me, you know, like, I don't know.
Speaker 3: (13:40)
Hmm. Do you have to, I think, what do you think though? That I don't know. I, I, I don't think I've ever watched a documentary mentoree in which I didn't ultimately side with what I think is the documentarians point of view. I mean, they can go, it's really, it's really an art that they can go a long way of laying out all of the facts and then kind of diverting you in this direction or, well, actually the, the next thing was a good example of that, because one documentary had you believe, I mean, they both blamed the head guy, whatever, but one documentary had you believing one thing and another one had you believing something slightly different. So I, I mean, I think that pretty much, you're going to have the opinion of the documentarian, even if you don't know that that's what the opinion that the documentarian has, because they're usually leading you towards a certain conclusion. Don't anything
Speaker 2: (14:42)
I think so I can't put the, I think that's it. And I can't quite tell where wild wild country is going and maybe that's a Testament to their good skills, or I don't know, but I don't know what I'm supposed to think at this point. And that's okay. I'll still watch it. I'm going to watch that the rest of it. Cause it's, it's better than watching the show of the news. You know, my cardiologist do not watch the news.
Speaker 3: (15:04)
That was, that was very, that was very good advice. Um, what I think is interesting is what draws us to what media, at what time, like you were, you just said this documentary was bringing up certain feelings in you. I have real recently been getting really into the Donner party.
Speaker 2: (15:25)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: (15:30)
Yeah, man. Whew. That was rough. How was rough? And those people had money. Did you know that, that those people had, they were very well to do so basically they lived in Springfield, Illinois. And I think what happened is at a certain point, you know, America started getting a lot more inhabitants and people who had been used to having a lot of space to themselves and a lot of land, whatever started having neighbors and some people didn't like it. And that's what this was before the gold rush, they came out in like 1846. Um, and they had a whole crew that had like a staff. They brought all of their to China and whatever with them, uh, and their S and w the trip was supposed to take, I guess, maybe like three months going through the Oregon trail, or maybe it was more, more that. And they were basically stuck there for like a year in the Sierra. Nevada's the, you know, in the winter with no food. Oh God. It's. And I think the reason I'm attracted to that right now is not that I'm stuck without food, but that I, this feeling of, like, we don't know when we're going to get out of this. We don't know if anybody's coming to save us. You're trapped, trapped. It's the trapped thing.
Speaker 2: (16:49)
Um, did they, did they not have a good travel agent? I mean, I know that sounds crazy, but did they not have someone, someone say
Speaker 3: (16:58)
They, they tried to do a shortcut. They, they believe this guy who was like a snake oil salesman essentially was selling a book that purported to have a shortcut. Oh no. And in that situation, Mrs. Donner, whoever she was was like, I don't know. I don't think this is a good idea. I think we should go. And the husband said, no, we're going to go this way. And they went that way and it was bad, bad, bad, bad,
Speaker 2: (17:27)
The lifelong struggle of women to try to tell men you're lost, get directions. It stems from the Donner party. Did they all end up? Did it?
Speaker 3: (17:41)
No. There were several survivors. I think the entire party started out with 80 people. And I think might be like 11 people survive one or two of the survivors, I believe did kill themselves after that, you know, because they, right. It's such a trauma
Speaker 2: (18:00)
And the guilt and the, and you ate, right. They ate each other, right? Yeah,
Speaker 3: (18:05)
No, they ate each other. Well, they didn't eat their own family. That was their code of ethics. They, they, they did, they divvied up the meat so that this one didn't go to his own or her own God. Well, it's so sad. I'm sorry to be laughing. Is it is a very interesting story. Well, human beings are absurd, you know, like at our core, the way in which we, when, when we, whenever we're in a situation where we have to get down to basics, like for our survival and we just become animals, just like, I'm a squirrel, I'm a rat. Like, I'm nothing, you know, because if you get me tired enough or hungry enough or lonely enough or whatever, like I'm going to make the same. Some people feel comforted by that. I don't, I don't feel, yeah. Right, right.
Speaker 2: (19:00)
I feel like that's where you get. Yeah. That's where you get freaking really freaking crazy people going and doing crazy stuff. Is that there, they forget they have a, what is it an a, a mixed a lot or whatever. It doesn't work out. It like goes out the window. And that's when people make really horrible decisions to, you know, animalistic decisions. Wow.
Speaker 3: (19:23)
Yeah. The Donner party. Uh, but besides that, I am looking for, uh, media recommendations of all sorts. I bought David Sedaris, his new book. I don't really like it. Um, I, I, my mom got me Barack Obama's book for Christmas, which I do like, but it makes me fall asleep. Every time I read it.
Speaker 2: (19:41)
It's not bad. That could be a good thing. Um, I was going to ask you something I was going to before I forget. Um, so, you know, I was, I was thinking about the interview that we're going to do, and that we've done with people. And we've known that the tricky thing about interviewing people, and I was thinking about this and the showers that we've known people, most of these people were interviewing. And soon one day, you know, we won't know the people and that'll be different, but we've known these people before they've become who they wanted to become. So it's like a lot of people don't like being reminded of the past. And a lot of people know, and a lot of people are very cagey about you having information or me having information about them from the past. And they're, they weren't who they wanted to be. And must have some shame about that and then get weird about it. But I was thinking about that, like that we can't really take that personally because, or I can't cause I'm too apt to, you know, be like, you know, but it's like when you've seen people at their weirdest worst or what they think is their weirdest worst, you could even think who cares. I don't give a. Um, but they, they care and they don't, they don't, they don't like it like you or you,
Speaker 3: (21:06)
That what you just said about they, you don't care, but they care that I think that could be applied to almost everything that we as humans feel very, a lot of shame about, um, for the, not a 99.9% of the time. It's like, it's, it's, it's either, it's funny now. Or it's just not a big deal. I mean, we just accept it. We were, we were 20, we were 19. We may, you know, we talked about amygdala as our amygdala, you know, we, our brain wasn't done being formed yet. So yeah. I wish, I wish, I wish I could give, not just our guests, but I guess certainly our guests too, but everybody, I wish I could give everybody the freedom of understanding that your 99% of your deepest shames are just regular things that everybody has to deal with. I remember like about five years ago, I, I realized that I was still holding on to embarrassment from so many past things. And so I started making it like a mission to tell these stories to people as much as I possibly could to kind of like reduce the shame around it. And it works like for, uh, let's see here. I have one, I think.
Speaker 3: (22:24)
Yeah. Yeah. Let's hear. Let's hear.
Speaker 2: (22:25)
All right, listen to this story. This is like, and I've told this a couple times, but this is the craziest. So at Saturn films I had, before she was fired for gambling online all day, I had one of my bosses. She was my was w they were all my boss. So, but she was my boss and she, her personal calls, she would get a lot of personal calls. This was like pre kind of pre-cellphone right around cell phone time. Right. Her mother would call a lot. And I would, my job was to take a message. You know, if she didn't want to talk to her mom, I couldn't talk to her about, okay. So one day, this is crazy. What made her mother calls? And I forgot. And at the time we had something called the call tracker, and you enter the call.
Speaker 2: (23:12)
It may probably still have it enter the thing, and then you press, and then it's in there. And then the person sees their messages. All right. I didn't do that. I made a mistake. I made a mistake. She she's like, Hey, did my mom call? She said, she called. And she was so angry that I said, no, she didn't call. She called, she called. And I said, no, she didn't call. And she's like, are you sure? Cause she said, she talked to someone I'm like, she didn't talk to me. It got bigger and bigger. It became like an investigation. Then she's like, well, maybe we should talk to Kelly this other in the office. And Kelly's like, no, she didn't talk to me as a deeper in, I got beans. The more, the more I was like, I can't tell her because I can't tell you she's going to, it was more than firing. It was this shame level. That was so great. And it, the mom, like she wanted to hear voice comparisons from like me and Kelly.
Speaker 3: (24:09)
Wait, why were they taking it so seriously?
Speaker 2: (24:12)
I think they wanted to prove that one of us was lying and I never told her, I just, she goes, okay, well, and it was this huge thing. And I felt so much shame and it was so embarrassing and it was so, and I should have just said, yes, she called them. Sorry. That's I mean, but the Lord had happened. The war dug in, I got about, Oh my God. It was when they wanted, when I had to go, Oh God,
Speaker 3: (24:38)
Anyway, but dude, this, this is exactly speaking to this phenomenon that you, that you have given the gift of to me, which I love so much, which is that we're always having an emotional flashback, whenever something is high stakes. Because what, what, the thing that rings out to me about that story is that that woman had a lot of guilty feelings about whether or not she wanted to talk to her mom. And she was projecting it onto you. The whole desire to scapegoat. You had a lot more to do with her, wanting to say to her, I know I'm making this up, but I feel like it's, it must be true that she doesn't want to have to say to her mom, you know, don't, don't call me every day at work. Like I have gambling to do. She was ashamed that she was spending all of her time at work wasting. So she had to. Yeah, dude. So like she's got her thing, the mothers fighting for her, for her reason you're fighting for. And it's like, none of it has anything to do with the freaking culture.
Speaker 2: (25:46)
None of them has to do with the call tracker. But I was so embarrassed about that for years that I, then my response, if I add a work situation would just be to take the blame for everything. They'd be like, who broke the dishwasher? I did. They'd be like, you weren't here even
Speaker 3: (26:01)
Talking about who did I did. I did
Speaker 2: (26:04)
It. I've made a mistake. And they're like, no, you actually, this wasn't your, and then I overcompensated by saying, I'll I up. I think I really ought to go to someone and be like, I think I really this up. I didn't do this. And I'm like, no, it's not that big of a deal. But
Speaker 3: (26:18)
Yeah, that's that, that is a very good policy. Like just immediately or if possible, let them know before they ask you that you made a mistake that, you know, because it's always forgivable at that level. It's just not forgivable when it gets,
Speaker 2: (26:32)
It got crazy, crazy. It was like, I was like, this is going to be, I don't know what is happening here, but this is out of control and Kelly and I had this get on the phone, her mom and say Saturn,
Speaker 3: (26:46)
Oh God, Oh God. Oh, that's, that's disgusting that they made you do that.
Speaker 2: (26:50)
She was, she was a nightmare. I mean, she'd got fired and she did some other weird things, but you know, it was, it was Hollywood. And, and she said she was dealing with some weird.
Speaker 3: (27:00)
I love stories about how people like off their job and embezzled money and like all kinds of crazy things for years and years. And nobody found out about it. My mother worked for a big, big organization and the, um, the head honcho had a secretary who was very officious. Like she was always telling everybody like, that's against the rules and we don't do that here. And she found, they found out that like she had been embezzling money for like 15 years to the tune of multiple millions of dollars. I mean, and she got caught and I think she might've gone to jail, but like it went on for 15. So anyway, another thing, another public service announcement when somebody is, you know, like a little extra it's, uh, it's also a flag.
Speaker 2: (27:52)
So flag and you know, my first job was at Bennison bakery in Evanston. And, um, and I had a coworker that was on me all the time about my math. And she knew that I was like, and it was before they made change for you. And you had to make change in your head at the cash flow. There was old school cash register. She was always on me and always on me and always on me and just really rude and like, and they caught her one day literally taking the whole drawers out of the thing out of the bag.
Speaker 3: (28:25)
Didn't even just take the bills out, take the whole
Speaker 2: (28:28)
Course. They caught her with the dorms. I was like, okay, so you're right. If someone is like on your, like ridiculously or, uh, talking about the rules all the time, you got to think there is something going on with this person. So yeah.
Speaker 3: (28:44)
So, so yes. And then, so the other piece of advice is, uh, things that are, that you're holding in your heart as shameful try saying I'm even just to yourself out loud, because they're probably funny by now putting out my retainer. I was my mind is that my first biggest, my first big shame that I carried around for a long time, which was completely unnecessary, was in seventh grade. And I had a crush on this boy and it was recess. And you know how in junior high, like recess, you just, you don't play necessarily. You stand around in a circle and talk to your friends, standing in a circle, talking to my friends, trying to impress this boy was maybe like six of us. And I told, or I either I told a joke or somebody didn't, I was laughing and I threw my head back and laughed.
Speaker 3: (29:33)
And my friend Taylor shut out of my, this boy, I loved on the forehead. Mike David that's fantastic. Did you want to ask me when I was, I wanted to die? And if you had asked me when I was 20, if somebody had brought that story up, when I was 20 years old, I would have wanted to die of embarrassment all over again. And I don't remember when I first, you know, realized that the story was actually funny, but it was like, it was like a gateway to telling all of my, you know, and now it's like, for me, I hear that. And I'm like, Oh, that's going to happen to Kiki. That's going to happen going to do that.
Speaker 3: (30:19)
And I told, I told on this podcast on the Pat Belton episode, I told the story about that. It was embarrassing about him and the member. Would you guys dance? If I put this, you were like, Oh, we're going to do a show. I might as well have been. I might as well have thought I was being asked to be a solid gold dancer. In that moment, you were like getting a recording today on the show. We have Lee Kirk Lee Kirk is a writer. He's also a performer and a director. He is known for, um, the giant mechanical man, which is a film that he wrote and directed and started with his wife. I'm not sure if they were married at the time, Jennifer Fischer from the office, which is very near and dear to my heart. And anyway, he's a lovely gentlemen. We had such a great time chatting with him and I think you will find him just as charming as we do. So please enjoy our interview, taking it over now. Anyway. Congratulations. You survived theater school.
Speaker 4: (31:40)
I did. I did. I guess I did. I mean, I'm here to tell,
Speaker 3: (31:44)
Of course you did. Of course you did. You lived to tell the tale and so like, did you always know you were going to go to theater school?
Speaker 4: (31:54)
No, actually I, um, I, my first year of college, I went to university of Arizona because my girlfriend went there and I just was so smitten and I followed her out there and, and went there for a year. And after that, after about six months, I was like, what am I doing here? I think I need to go to, you know, some sort of theater school. So I went back home and I, and I, you know, saved money and I auditioned for schools. And my criteria was basically I wanted to go to a school that had a, um, it was in an old city. So like a New York or a Boston, Chicago, that was the one criteria. And I, and I'm assuming the other criteria was just like, they had to have a really good picture in the American theater magazine, because I think, I think that's how I ended up choosing the schools. You know what I mean? I just flipped through and be like, Hey, look at that guy. He's, he's like dressed old timey, Ipsen costume. I want that. You know, I mean, I, I'm assuming that's what I did cause I had no clue why I ended up auditioning for DePaul or I audition for Boston university and NYU. And I think it was just because they looked glossy and fun, you know,
Speaker 5: (33:00)
Talks about this being. So we talked to John Bridges about it. We talked to, um, a lot of Ballou set up, said advertising, the marketing for DePaul theater school was fam tasks.
Speaker 4: (33:12)
It worked, it worked for me, you know, so Texas, right. I'm from Dallas. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (33:18)
You're from Dallas. And did you, did those schools come to Dallas for your audition or did you have to go someplace else?
Speaker 4: (33:24)
No, I had to go. So I went to, I went to Boston and NYU in New York for those auditions and um, and then I went to, um, new Orleans for DePaul, um, which was kind of odd. I'd never been to Chicago. And, and so, you know, I went, I went to new Orleans and it was John Bridges and, um, Joe slick, we're, we're, we're the guys doing, holding auditions. And I remember, I remember I pretty much in the bed, in my audition because, because I remember as I was walking out, like I finished my monologue or whatever, and it clearly didn't, you know, wow. Them. So as I was walking out, I was like, Oh, man, I need a, I need a last ditch effort here. So I just stopped. And I said, Hey, can I just say something? And bridges was like, sure, what's up.
Speaker 4: (34:11)
And I said, I just really liked to Paul. And I just really hope to go there and opportunity. And so I walked out going, Oh, no. And about, and then I got in, right. So then later I, um, I was talking, talking to John when I was in the school and for some reason, auditions becoming came up and I, and I asked him about how was my audition? He says, I don't know. I just remember you, you seem to really want to go there. So go here. So we said, let's give this kid a shot, I guess. No, it works. Begging worked is the, is the moral of the story?
Speaker 5: (34:43)
Well, it may have worked, but my recollection. And so of course, you know, we run a hear your recollection, but my recollection is that you were like a fantastic actor. Everything you did was like your effort effortless. I that's, what I remember about you is like you made it all look very easy.
Speaker 4: (35:02)
Yep. That, that is, uh, a high compliment from you guys. And it's astounding, honestly, a hundred percent astounding to hear that because I felt like I was just always treading water man. And I, and I, and, and acting for me felt very hard. Like it felt like I had to work really hard to kind of get into the zone of, of whatever the character was. And I think a lot of that was just, there was so many things where we were thinking about, we're thinking about our movement, our voice, our posture, our what's beyond our filter that we're using our intention. And so, like, it was hard. It was hard to just get into the place of just like, ah, creativity. Let's just let this flow. So thank you for saying that, you know, I, I appreciate it, but, but it was, um, I didn't find, I found it. I found it difficult. I found it difficult.
Speaker 6: (35:58)
I remember that you were the nicest guy of the cool kids. Does that make sense? Like the, all the people that you hung with, I was so intimidated, but you were so nice to me that I was like that guy's really nice. And I'm telling you that goes a long way when you're 17 and have no self-esteem so like, that's all,
Speaker 4: (36:19)
Well, I'm glad to hear that. That's cool. I remember here's a, here's a story. I remember Phyllis Griffin, I think thought the same thing because her, um, her stepdaughter, I think when I was a junior, her stepdaughter was in high school. She was a senior and she was, had no one go to the prom. And so Phyllis said, you take her to the prom Lee. And I was like, okay. You know? And so, so I, so I like went to the high school prom when I was like 22 years old or something like that with Phyllis's uh step-daughter.
Speaker 6: (36:53)
That is so endearing and yes, that's high praise. I'm sure Phyllis would not have trusted just anybody with that. That's amazing.
Speaker 4: (37:04)
Yeah.
Speaker 6: (37:05)
So we have talked about Phyllis a lot as a champion. Like she she's one of the people who, and actually, unfortunately it ends up being kind of like a lot of the female teachers were the ones doing the emotional labor of supporting the students. And she, she was one of those people. I never had her as a teacher, but I could certainly see her as a champion. Would you consider her one of your theater school champions?
Speaker 4: (37:29)
Well, let's see, first year I, I, you know, I was in her class and I knew her well, and I remember the first, what a, what would you call it? Quarters were in quarters, trimester. I don't know what the hell we were on the first, first three, four months, whatever they were, whenever you call those. I, um, I was just like, not feeling it there. I was like, very, I felt like a fish out of water and it was such a culture shock to me and I just was not, and I wasn't getting the acting, I wasn't getting a whole thing. Um, so I did talk to Phyllis then. And I remember she said like, you know, she kinda talked me back from the ledge. Like it takes a while to feel like you're, you know, belong somewhere. Um, but really late in later years it was, it was the Feldon Christ teachers.
Speaker 4: (38:13)
Like bill Burnett was like a huge influence on me because he saw that, uh, I was, I was slouching a lot, I guess. And so he did like table work with me once a week and it was profound like that, that, that changed. Um, so much of my perspective on things like all the, all the movement work from the school and the, you know, yoga and the Feldon Christ and, and, um, the voice work, all that stuff was great. I do have a confession. I'll say I never got movement to music. I tried to get that. I pretended like I did, like John Jenkins had bring Steven Davidson and be like, this is how you do it. I'd watch him. I'd be like, okay, I can do that. And I get up there and I'd be just impulse, like crazy moving on. And I jumped Jenkins. It'd be like shaking his head. Like, no,
Speaker 5: (39:02)
God, I can't do this. You know what? I think you're not alone there. My friend. And also we've had stories of people that came, went to that class on mushrooms, I think should have done that. And they aced it. So sobriety was your problem. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 6: (39:21)
So, uh, you mentioned all of that, that wonderful list. Uh, keeping an intention, having a filter, where have I come from? Where am I going to? And that I felt that too, there was so much about acting about learning, acting, because I don't feel I really ever started learning, acting. And if I did at all, until I went to the theater school, even I had been doing it since, you know, junior high. Um, but for me, the biggest trap was just getting caught in my head because I'm thinking about all of those things that you mentioned, and I also perceive you to be a thinker. So would it be fair to say that that was like an obstacle for you?
Speaker 4: (40:02)
Oh, I would think absolutely. Yeah. I was not this like tactile, you know, actor who could just be raw and just bring it. I, I was, you know, much more in my head. And so I really had to think my ways into the character. I mean, I remember my, I guess it was an intro. I think it was, um, maybe it was my first workshop. I can't remember, but it was, um, around, around the garden. It was, um, uh, Alan, I wanna play. And, um, I was playing this role and I was not getting it. I was just like, not getting this character and it was not working. And then bill Burnett said to me play this guy, like, he's just has a lot of, he's always thinking, he's always thinking, like, he's always trying to think of the right thing to say. And when he said that to me, I was like, well, how do I interpret that?
Speaker 4: (40:51)
And I decided to use the filter of, I don't understand people. Like I just started to look at all the other character and just play the scene as if I don't understand anything. And that just unlocked something and it came to life. Like I remember doing it in like the dress rehearsal and being like, Holy, it's, I'm doing, I'm in this thing. I'm feeling this character, I'm doing the whole thing. And it worked. And unfortunately that was probably the highest moment of my acting at the theaters go. Cause I kept trying to replicate it every time and I could never, you know, replicate it, but you know, it's like, look, I was 21 or something, 22 playing. Okay. I remember playing father Jack in dancing at luminous at right. Okay. This guy is like in his, he's like 55, I guess. And he has malaria.
Speaker 4: (41:38)
I hadn't, no, I hadn't. I had no connection to that. So I played him like a shuffling old man. I played him like he was 85, 90 years old wheezing and all this. And I remember one day Phil has said to me, you realize he's like 55. Right? She's like, he's like my age almost. So yes. And I had no use for that. I was like, I don't know how to play 50. How would I play 55? Like, all I can do is either old guy or young guy. So I'm playing old guy right now. Right. That's hilarious. So, anyway,
Speaker 6: (42:14)
Uh, so, okay. So one of the things that occurs to me about that whole thing, cause I think maybe the three of us can relate to getting stuck in our heads, but we're also all three writers. And of course that's what, you know, I mean, like of course that would be your default position. So when did you know when you were at the theater school that you were also a writer?
Speaker 4: (42:35)
No, I had no, no clue that came much later. That came from desperation basically because, um, well I'll say this, first of all, I did write something at the theater school. I wrote my, my monologue for my showcase, which was an absolute show. Okay. This monologue was terrible and it was, it was awful. Like my showcases were a bomb. Okay. But what we can get to that, but, but, um, I didn't know how to write. Right. So the writing came later when I was in LA doing the occasional beer commercial, sitting around, waiting for a job and realized, well, dude, I can sit here while I'm sitting here. I can write like you can't act in your living room obviously because no, one's there. If no one's there to watch you it's doesn't make sense, but you can write in your living room alone and actually you have to write alone in your living room. So I was like, Hey, I'm going to try this. And so that was when that whole part of my life, my life began when I just started writing, um, to, to write basically to write myself an acting role, which then just doors open. And as you know, I just followed, you know, if a door opened, I went through it and that just turned into a whole new career for me.
Speaker 6: (43:48)
So did you start, uh, I mean, getting work as a writer at that same time, or did that take longer?
Speaker 4: (43:55)
Well, I'll tell you the story is what happens. So I, so John Cabrera and I were living together and, um, we both put 2,500 bucks into this new, the new camera it's called the Panasonic DVX 100 or whatever. It was $2,500 was everything to me. Like I put 2,500 bucks and that was a ton. I was only teaching acting at that point and I was doing the occasional commercial. Right. So that was a huge investment. So we bought it, we played with it. We were like, this is amazing. Look at the image of this thing. And then it just sat there. And I was like, well, man, I spent 2,500 bucks. I'm gonna try to write something for this. So I sat and I wrote this short, which is, it was called the man who invented the moon. I think John's got it on his, um, on his Vimeo page.
Speaker 4: (44:39)
I think if anybody wants to look at it, but, but I, I started reading a bunch of books, screenwriting. I found this one guy, John Truby, who, who taught a scene, a story structure that just completely resonated with me. And I just plugged that in. I plugged his structured into my story and it just, it worked. And I just felt so empowered all of a sudden like, wow, look at this man. I've been sitting here for years, like just trying to fit like a square peg into a round hole and now it's fits. And so I just decided to keep writing. Then I was like, I went to theater school for four years. I don't want to now go to creative writing school or film score or something. I'm just going to learn by doing right. So I just started writing as much as I could. And then, and then it would turn into, um, occasional job, but also it just turned into more, more than anything. It turned into me sort of finding what I like to write about and finding my, my sort of voice, you know, and led me to making some movies and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: (45:40)
Do you think that, I mean, cause I, I also think that people get attracted to an aspect of something like it could be that you're attracted to acting because acting is the only thing that's presented to you when, what you really like is performance of all types or what you really like is storytelling of all types. So w w would that be true for you that that acting was your in to what you really needed to get to, which is this essential part of you that as a writer?
Speaker 4: (46:08)
Honestly, not really. I mean, the reason I was re I had to write is because I couldn't get a job as an actor. I couldn't audition. I sucked at auditioning. I will say right now, I bet I hold the, the record for the worst eater. I would like to
Speaker 3: (46:25)
We'll do a run for isolated as Ben [inaudible]. Yeah.
Speaker 4: (46:33)
Oh, I've got some doozies. We can talk, we can, but, but, you know, I didn't, and, and this goes back to the theater school, um, man, there was so many great things that I learned at that school and so many great teachers and, uh, and, but I felt like, and I didn't realize this until years later, but I feel like there was an ingredient that just got left out. And that was me basically. I learned everything about my body and how to break it all down and how it all works. But when it came to filling it up then with me and my specificity of who I am that just got lost. And so, um, and so I got out into the world and I just like, I was, I was not getting work. I just couldn't audition. Well, I could not walk into a room and just like, bring it right.
Speaker 4: (47:22)
So because of that, I started writing, you know, and I enjoyed finally doing something. But to be honest with you, I would love to be asking right now. I mean, I like what I do, but I also miss acting tremendously, you know, especially theater, you know, acting on the stage. Do you ever, like, I mean, do you audition for things or you just let it go? I can't do the audition. That's the thing. So maybe I'll try again, but I just kind of feel like, you know what, maybe that will come back around sometime, but I don't want to get back into like getting a headshot and like going on a meeting. I just, I just never felt right for me. So I'm kind of holding, that's a very tough part of doing all of this. Yes.
Speaker 5: (48:08)
That's why I just, yeah. And I'm like, Oh, no problem. I'll just write something for Lee. That's a pretty easy write something for you. We'll put you on the thing. I mean, auditioning is not acting to me. It is a part of the business of making dollars as an actor. But I know so many people that are like that, that just there and Gina and I talk a lot about confidence, right. And the confidence at being easy to say, a trickier to manifest than anything on the planet and that's not acting, but it's part of the business. And so I just want to let you know that, that, like I talking to so many people and being an actor, myself and a writer, um, I just am the therapist in me. My former therapist self wants me to say to you that you are a good actor and then I'll just show you not your strong suit.
Speaker 4: (49:01)
That's it. Thank you. That's it? Well, it, it really is true that the audition is a very specific skill. And, um, and I, I do wish at the theater school that there was a lot more attention paid to that and a lot more, you know, more of a philosophy or a strategy about what it is. And, um, it's funny because we did audition all the time. Right? We were always auditioning for plays, but within that bubble, it's very different. You know, it's, it's a whole different thing when you get out into, in, into the world and you know, and I see it as a director when I'm auditioning and you can see it's very clear, like this is when it really became clear to me because you can have an actor walk in and they're, they're, they're who they are. They have their own rhythm, their own way of speech, their way, their, their thing, they're who they are.
Speaker 4: (49:46)
Right. And then you say, okay, action. And then that, that person does not disappear. They begin their audition and you still see that person. Right. And it's compelling. That's when you go, Oh, that's this, person's doing it the way that only they would do it is specific to them. Whereas if you have someone come in and you say, okay, action. And then they suddenly, they become acting and they're doing a character immediately. It's false. Right. I was always the guy who was doing the character. Right. I was never the guy who just was like, okay, here I am. And then I'm just gonna slightly adjust. And I'm still me just giving you this performance, you know? So, and I, I, that's just a weird thing and it's a specific thing. And I feel like there's a way to teach that. I wish it was taught.
Speaker 6: (50:33)
Yeah. And it just, it did just get like shoe horned at the end, in the, you know, in the fourth year it was like, okay, hurry up and learn how to, first of all, hurry up and transform all of your thinking from theater, into film and television. And it really blindsided me. I didn't really see that coming I should have, but I didn't see it coming. And, and then, yeah. And then you had, uh, uh, I feel like audition class was also one, was it once a week?
Speaker 4: (51:02)
Yeah. It wasn't a, it was once a week. Yeah.
Speaker 6: (51:04)
Once a week. So you did once a week for whatever. Like not that many weeks, not enough weeks come out of it and be a confident auditioner.
Speaker 4: (51:13)
No. And I think, I don't know what they're doing at the school now, but I feel like they should really be, um, take some time, think about that, think about the audition and get someone in there who can really teach it because there are people who teach it they're out in LA and, um, and it it's, it's, it's makes a huge difference. It really makes a difference. And, and it's like, you were saying, Jen, it's a different thing than acting. Oh, you know, it kind of goes to what you were saying. You know about me. I'm very thought intellectual. Right. So I can't just, I can't just be a character. Right. Which is always my fault with the audition, because you get a thing it's three days later, next day, you got to go on and just do this thing. And I needed, I always needed the whole rehearsal process in order to get there. Right. And so walking in, just showing it up and getting there, I, I just, but there's a way to do it, you know?
Speaker 6: (52:04)
Yeah. And it's, it's a knowable way. It's, it's not it's, I mean, it's a mystery to me, but it's not a mystery to people. Yeah. Go ahead, boss.
Speaker 5: (52:15)
I was just going to ask you, um, about your, um, process of you, you talked a little bit about the showcase process for you and I, I mean, I know it could be, it can be cringe-worthy and painful, but, um, what was that experience? Because we've, I it's just so fascinating because that was our coming out into the world. Mine wasn't so great. Either. I did a monologue that I should never have been doing. That was like a six year old lady. I mean, it was a mess, but, um, so what was that experience like for you going to, did you go to New York or just LA in Chicago.
Speaker 4: (52:46)
Okay. So we just did LA and Chicago and, um, well, okay. So in my fourth year I got an agent before I graduated. Okay. So, um, and Jane alderman said, I got someone you can meet. I met this guy and I, so I had an agent. I think that, that wasn't good for me because I think that's part of the reason I sort of blew off the showcase a little bit. I was like, I'll just write my own monologue. I already got an agent anyway, I'm not moving to LA, I'm going to be in Chicago. So, so I didn't consciously think that, but I just think the fire wasn't there. I wasn't feeling like, Oh man, this is my moment. And so I did the Chicago one and then we went to LA and when we went to LA and I stood up and I did my terrible monologue, I immediately, after I finished, I was like, Oh.
Speaker 4: (53:39)
I feel like I just really made a huge mistake. And I felt terrible because, you know, it's like, you're leading this. I felt like we're leading up to this four years of doing this. It's all leads up to this. And I felt like, Oh man, I just, I just lost my chance, you know? And, um, and I kind of did in a way, I mean, I didn't get any, I got a few little things, but I didn't get any attention from that showcase. And, and so, um, going, looking back, I would have obviously all much differently, but, um, so it wasn't great, but it's funny. I don't know what the showcase is like now I don't know if they're doing the same thing, but if they're not, I do feel like the LA showcase, it needs to be reinvented a little bit because, you know, I don't know you got all these film and TV people, you bring them into the theater and you send them to a monologue, but there's a screening room. Like next door, like create, uh, create, uh, a real, you know, create, take those monologues, get a camera and a cinematographer, something that looks very nice and just spend a day shooting everybody, doing their monologue, and then bring everybody to a screening room and play them on the big screen. And let people see them act in the medium that these people are used to seeing people acting right.
Speaker 5: (54:50)
That's brilliant. I never thought that that's brilliant. And also they could watch it at their leisure. They don't all have to go to you can, but it's also so much easier to send that to people via email, then making or asking film and TV people to watch 20 monologues on film. You know what I mean? Which is what they do. They did this year because of COVID. And I just thought if I'm a casting director watching 20 monologues times, however many schools versus watching scenes, like from either from stuff that exists or stuff that doesn't exist. I mean, that could be a whole, I'm just saying Lee, it's time to get on, got to get on the horn to whoever's running the show.
Speaker 4: (55:29)
Well, listen, I've learned from, from years in LA that you, it it's helpful if you do most of the heavy lifting for, for people who are behind the other side of the desk. Right. If you do most of the lifting for them, then they'll get it. But if you ask them to meet you halfway or, or to do more, you know, more of the lifting, it's not usually a good, a good outcome, but listen, the showcases work. It's not like it hasn't worked. I mean, many people did well in the showcase. So that might just be me saying, you know, correct.
Speaker 5: (56:03)
So, but you said you blew it off because you had an agent, but I, I gathered that the rest of that story was, and then it didn't go that great with that agent,
Speaker 4: (56:13)
Right? Yeah. No, I didn't go. But yeah, I mean, I did some auditions, but you know, like I could not addition, I mean, it just goes back to my own thing is that I just could not find it, find my comfort in the audition. So I got it. I got a little work in Chicago from, from that, but not very much, you know,
Speaker 5: (56:32)
What was the piece that you wrote for yourself? I mean, I know you said it was terrible, but what was it about?
Speaker 4: (56:38)
Oh gosh, it was about, I think it was, I hardly remember. I think it was about a guy who was heartbroken or something, but it was, I mean, I'm telling you guys it was horrible. It was, it was, I I'm surprised that that Jane alderman was like, yeah, do that. That's cool.
Speaker 5: (56:56)
That's what we've, we've talked about this before, where it's like that we didn't have, we didn't have someone saying, um, Hey, this may not be the best fit. So like, let me work with you to find something, you know, it was sort of like, and, and, you know, in fairness, John Bridges said that like, people were like, I have to do this, but we were kids. I mean, we were almost kids, basically. We were almost kids. And so it's like, it's like, we should've had some guidance of like, no, no, no, don't do. I mean, the stuff we're hearing people did for their show was insane. Some of it like hair Belichick's or whatever, I mean, whatever that was. And so, um, I'm just saying, I bet it's not, as I bet it wasn't just the right. Best bet. It didn't showcase you the right way.
Speaker 5: (57:43)
That's all I'm saying. And, and, and look, we were kids, man, it's supposed to do that's exactly what it was supposed to. I mean, that's the promise of the premise. There is you are going to be seeing people really at their best with the material that's right. For them. And, and, you know, almost to a person that we've talked to, people felt that they was age inappropriate or, or, or it was just inappropriate in the sense that you're auditioning with a piece that's not a role you would ever get cast for. Right. So like the bare minimum requirements should be. I evaluate you. I see. Okay. Lee, you're, you're a good looking guy. You got blonde hair, you got the slight Southern accent. Okay. This is the kind of role that you're, you're going to get cast in a Sam shepherd something. And so that's the piece that you should use.
Speaker 5: (58:37)
Right? I don't remember any of that. Well, I don't remember the piece I did at all. I have literally zero recollection of it, but I'm certain it wasn't anything related to like me and what I would've gotten cast as. Right. And so now Gina, Gina, and I both write monologues for people because I, I saw that whole and I thought, okay, this is bonkers. That, that we're expecting people to get cast in film and TV and having them do these monologues from burn this from 1989 or only Anna or something, that's not okay anymore. So I think, I think it's changing, but slowly. And I think, um, anyway, we could have benefited from a little bit more of the help making the transition into, into, um, film and TV world. So I, I just, I don't know. I have so much compassion for us. I just look back and I'm like, man, we really tried. And I don't know, you seem to have a good memory of the shows you did. Like, do you remember the show? The dumbwaiter that you did? Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. So for people, obviously it's a UNESCO show, right? Gina Penter. Okay. Yeah. So you guys took the ceiling off of the movement room and had some kind of police situation going, do you remember that?
Speaker 4: (59:56)
That was a little slight of hand. It made it look like we took the seat off. We actually didn't. But that was, yeah, that was so Sean directed that it was Val and, and myself and, uh, that was fun. That was cool. And we actually read it. So,
Speaker 5: (01:00:14)
Uh, workshop.
Speaker 4: (01:00:16)
No, no, this is just something we did on our own. We were like, we want to get a dumbwaiter. So we're just going to put on a production of the dumbwaiter.
Speaker 5: (01:00:22)
That's cool. I don't know how we found
Speaker 4: (01:00:24)
The time for that. I mean, where did we find the time to do that? Well, yeah, but we weren't working
Speaker 5: (01:00:30)
On your, you weren't working.
Speaker 4: (01:00:35)
Yeah. I was like, I don't need to do the showcase. Let's do the dumbwaiter guy.
Speaker 5: (01:00:39)
It was good. That was a good,
Speaker 4: (01:00:42)
Oh, that's so cool. You say that. So, yeah, so we did that. And then when we graduated, um, we formed a little theater company. Um, do you guys know that the Chopin cafe and course. Okay. So we met up with the owner of that building and he was like, the cafe at that time was empty and he was like, listen. And the theater and this, by the way, the feed in the basement, there was a big theater next door, but then it was a theater in the basement was beautiful, coolest space. And we were like, okay, listen, we will run. We will open up this coffee shop and run this coffee shop. We will open a business if then we can use that space downstairs to put on shows. And he was like deal because he wanted that coffee shop and he just wanted the traffic.
Speaker 4: (01:01:24)
Right. So we were like, okay, cool. So for like our graduation presence, we all got like some money from our parents. And we like opened a coffee shop. Like I'm talking like, met with like coffee distributors and in coffee cup distributed, all this kind of stuff, literally opened a coffee shop. Like every morning at 7:00 AM sweeping out the shop. It was like [inaudible] and myself and Sean Gunn. And, um, who else was involved with that? This collaboration? No, it wasn't collaboration, but like there was other people involved like Sarah chopper and Anaconda makeup. We were all kind of involved in this thing. So, um, so we did three. So we did let's see, we did a show called the hot house pincher play down in that basement. We did a cloud nine Caryl Churchill down in the basement. And then we also did, this is the dumbwaiter reference.
Speaker 4: (01:02:11)
We did that, um, play as well, but we didn't do it there, but we did it as a part of this little theater group. We did it at a festival. Um, what we found is that we had no business running a coffee shop because we just literally like our capital just slowly disappeared into, we had no money. And we were like, I guess we're shutting the coffee shop. And that was the end of that little era. But it was about, it was about nine months, maybe a year of, of just like doing theater and trying to sell coffee. You know, that was our, that was our first thing we did. And we got out of, out of school,
Speaker 6: (01:02:45)
God, the, the unending, um, ambition and, and, and wishful thinking or better way to say it was optimism of young people. I mean, it's both the thing, cause it could have gone either way. It could have totally taken off and it could have changed the course of all of the people's lives, who are, who are a part of it. So on the one hand you don't, if you don't have that, then you have people who never take any risks because they never, they, they find a way to always convince themselves that something won't work. Um, but it's cute to think back to that time, because we did that too. Uh, Eric Slater and, and, um, Russell and, and John was John, I forget, I'm sorry, John. I forget if you were a part of this or not, but anyway, we did that too. We formed a little theater company and I think it also, you, I personally needed that. I needed that transition out of the theater school in a way to prove to myself that I can still, I mean, not that I think became of that, but I can still do this outside of the confines of the theater school itself. It was, it turned out to be a really instrumental thing. So, so then, so you graduated and you stayed in Chicago for a bit, and then you lived
Speaker 4: (01:04:05)
Just, we did this theater thing for about a year and I stayed for that long. And then Sean had moved to LA, um, he got like a movie and he went to LA and he was like, dude, you need to move out here. And, um, and so, uh, at that point I was like, nothing was really happening for me. Uh, I still had the agent, but like, it wasn't really going anywhere. And I just kind of felt like, uh, I just felt like I needed a change. So I moved out to LA and, um, you know, and then struggled out there for, for a long time, you know? Um, but, but it was cool. Like, it was cool. Like I don't, I don't regret it. You know, I missed Chicago tremendously and I still miss miss Chicago. You know, there's just something about that city that, that is, is really, um, it's always going to be with me. It was a really formative time in my life. Like that, that time of the theater school was super important for me. And, uh, and part of it was just being in Chicago, just being in this really cool city. That was nothing like the suburbs of Dallas, right?
Speaker 6: (01:05:07)
Yeah. No, definitely. There's no comparison, no. Uh, lead, did you get warned or were you one of those people that never was on warning? Never worried about being
Speaker 5: (01:05:18)
Surprisingly,
Speaker 4: (01:05:19)
I never got a warning. I don't know how that happened. I can remember some things. I did that merited. Oh, it was very strong warning. Okay. But for some reason it never came. I always expected it, but you know what, here's the thing I have a question for you guys. Did you know that there was a cut system when you applied and went to DePaul? I didn't either. So I remember showing up the first day it was like a meeting. Like there was a meeting, like it was like a get together. Like everybody come together and, you know, a meet and greet kind of thing before the first day of school. And so I go to that and everyone's talking about the cut system and there's a quota and, and I was like, what? There's that I could get cut. I, I, I've gone through so much to get to the school from like leaving my other university of Arizona, taking a year off, finally getting my here. And you're telling me, it might last one year. I was like, terrified by that.
Speaker 5: (01:06:17)
Me too. I was a complete surprise to me too. I mean, it was, yeah. I, I, and I remember telling my mom that and she was like, that is, that, is that allowed? Is that apparently, apparently that's what they do here. And it was very, and it, and it created, I mean, I guess you're saying about the, the students were the ones that were talking about that, but, but it, it did create this, um, Paul over the first year experience of, it just felt very tenuous all the time. We did learn from John Bridges that there was no quota that when they admitted a class of students, they, you know, to themselves basically viewed it as a promise that if all of those students did well, they could all advance through the whole four years. But coincidentally, that never happened and always shrunk by 50%. I mean, it's hard to know.
Speaker 5: (01:07:18)
What's, what's the word I know it's not like that now, but when we went, I can definitely say, and, and the thing is, I didn't, you know, to be honest, I didn't bring this up with John, but I was cut and then not cut. So I was cut after my second year. And then a month later, got a letter saying, actually we made a mistake. I don't know, but it was the worst. Cause I was like, Oh, I guess I'll go to university of Madison now or whatever it is I was going to do. And then they're like, actually we want you back. So they had some problem areas. Let's just call it what it is. I mean, they had some problem areas. Yeah.
Speaker 4: (01:07:50)
That's, that's bizarre. That's, that's a lot to put you through.
Speaker 5: (01:07:52)
Yeah. You know,
Speaker 4: (01:07:54)
Come on back. Oh great. You guys really want me,
Speaker 5: (01:07:58)
It was really strange. It was really strange, but so can you, can you tell us, are you directing, what are you what's happening? Are you, I want to hear about good things that are happening for sure.
Speaker 4: (01:08:09)
Well, the same way that I just, you know, with writing, if the door opened, I went through it and the same thing happened with directing. So, um, I, yeah, I I'm directing, I've directed a few, you know, a couple of films and a little TV and music videos, stuff like that. But, um, but that's the same thing. Like I had this movie, um, that, uh, it's called the giant mechanical man that I had had written back in 2008 or nine or something. And actually that movie was, uh, was kind of based on what we're talking about in terms of Chicago and just how, you know, one thing I missed about Chicago so much, and I still miss this is I, I love the people who they're, the artists, the theater artists, who like our content to do great theater. They come up with really cool and they're content to do it for a room full of, you know, 50 people night after night and continue to do great stuff.
Speaker 4: (01:09:01)
And I just, I, when you're in LA and you don't see that, it, it, it meant a lot to me. You know, I remember, I remember a play that John Cabrera told me about that was, it was, uh, it was a car you would get in the car as the audience member get in the backseat of the car. And the two actors were in the front seat of the car and then they would drive around and they do the play as they're driving, they're having a conversation and you're just watching this now. That is so cool. Right. That's awesome. That's awesome. So I wrote this movie that was basically, I took that idea and it's like, what if it's just one person is the only person who gets your art. And that was this movie called the giant mechanical man. Anyway, that's just a segue about Chicago.
Speaker 4: (01:09:39)
But, um, I, um, what was I saying? Oh yeah. So that movie we had, uh, Jason Segel attached, it was going to be made for, you know, like who knows five to $10 million. And we had this British director and then the financial crash crisis hit and it all went away. And, um, Chris Messina had read it and, and had had a meeting with him and he was like, dude, you should just direct this movie. Let's make it for nothing. And you direct it. And again, it was one of those moments where I was like, okay, I'm going to just step up here. And just, I've never directed anything before, but I'm just going to go for it, you know, and, um, and learn as I do, you know, and, but be honest, the, the, all of the training I had at, at the theater school was instrumental in me being comfortable as a director.
Speaker 4: (01:10:29)
You know, I just focused on the actors. I just talked to the actors, made them feel comfortable and, um, let the cinematographer deal with lenses and all that kind of stuff. And that it was a really easy fit for me. And that would not have happened without the theater school. And the writing wouldn't have happened. You know, the, the ability to write sort of dialogue and structure out a scene a hundred percent came from just doing it so many times at the theater school, doing so many different scenes and thinking about thinking about all the things that we talked about what's beyond, or what the, you know, what what's, um, what's the, again, like the filter of this character and, you know, so it all came full circle and just a weird way. I think that's what it does for almost everybody. And to what you were saying about
Speaker 6: (01:11:14)
Directing and attending to the actors, to me, that's when I'm, cause I direct you for theater, it's 100% of the job is attending to your actors and which is why I never understood, um, people like Woody Allen, who I guess they never ever talked to the actor. They just, they figure that, you know, if they cast you that th you know, they feel you're really capable of doing it. And I mean, that sounds bizarro to me. I would, I would really, really, really hate that, that, that, that sounds like a, a recipe because, you know, we're all just so insecure and we just all really want somebody to say, w you know, periodically frequently, you're doing good.
Speaker 4: (01:11:53)
Yeah. That's great. Yeah, no kidding. I mean, that's, it's, I mean, and I think that that understanding of an actor, like we all have that because we've been through it and we are right. We are actors. And, and so that understanding of like what it takes, um, personally, to put yourself on the line to be the one that the camera's pointing at, and you've got to deliver a lot, there's a lot, you know? And, um, and so, yeah, th th to understand that from the other side of the camera, to be able to say, Hey, man, that's good. I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're nailing it. You're you got it. Yeah.
Speaker 6: (01:12:28)
Oh, that sounds great. You're an actor's director, which is fantastic when you,
Speaker 4: (01:12:33)
It's where I feel comfortable, you know, it's just what I latch on to. Um, and it's, it's what, whenever I feel a little bit confused, I just latch on to that, and then I feel much better.
Speaker 6: (01:12:44)
Yeah. I, and I honestly, we didn't get that at the theater school either. We didn't get very many attaboys. I mean, you know, I guess like you could say not getting cut is a version of, it's a version of that, but it's, it fails to really and encompass, I mean, more so, like in intros, I don't know if you remember your intros. That's what we did in our second year. Yeah. That was a little more of a caring environment, I think, because they knew we were little babies and needed that, but after that it was cold.
Speaker 4: (01:13:19)
Yeah. There wasn't, it's true. There was not a lot of, of, of attaboys. Um, uh, you know, it's funny because one of the things I really liked about the theater school, when I, especially when I first arrived there was, cause I was just coming from I'd done high school plays and stuff. Right. It was all just fun. Like in my mind, I think it's fun. You just have fun, you know, you just stand up there and have fun. And I, and I appreciated when I showed up that these teachers were like, this is hard work. The bar is high. Okay. And this is, you got to take this seriously. It's not just about having fun and you know, some more extreme than others, you know? I mean, David, Abby, Callie, he was like a hockey coach of mine. You know, he was like, if you don't, you know, I remember like Sean and I used to talk about, like, he told one kid, if you don't get up right now.
Speaker 4: (01:14:08)
Cause we were, it was a fear of feeling the heat exercise and there's one kid like way over dead. It you're just supposed to stand there and feel the heat. Right. He's like falling on the ground and he's so hot, he's sweating. And I've called, he's like, get up right now and feel the heat. And the kid's like, I am feeling the heat. And he said, he's like, if you don't get up right now and start feeling the heat, I'm going to do everything I can to get you out of this school. And the kids like, okay, you gotta stop it. But like, like I appreciate it. I've Callie kind of being a hard-ass like, I liked him. I remember him saying, you know what, guys theater is expensive. Tickets are very expensive. You have to go deep. You have to go hard. It has to be good. You gotta make it worth it. I needed to hear that. Like I just like liked, I liked thinking about the work as something that was important and that needed, you know, scrutiny. Maybe I overdid it, you know, maybe I got too into that. And maybe that's why I couldn't like audition. Maybe the fun was lost a little bit, but I don't know. I just liked,
Speaker 5: (01:15:15)
Oh, it's a, it's a good thing. It's a good thing to remind people of. And as you were talking, I was just thinking, yeah. Cause I had David too. He, he did have so many gems, so many wonderful things to say. I wish I had kept my notebooks from that time. Cause I, it would be so fun to go back now because I remember writing down some of these things for me though, it got all, you know, tangled up in, you know, I'll just say that what I felt was like the emotional terrorism of what he did that I don't really think I cared. I could carry any of it with me because being to be in his class for me was to be hypervigilant. Just so it became about like doing the thing that wouldn't make him say he was going to throw his shoe at you.
Speaker 7: (01:16:03)
Right. Which
Speaker 5: (01:16:05)
Is not the same thing as finding, you know, the objective in the scene. Yeah. And I think some people can, are equipped better for whatever reason. We're finding, it's like a research project. When we talk to people, some people have the resiliency inside or the something where they can process what the teachers are saying. And there's those of us who are, I couldn't even, I was like, uh, in a fugue state. So I don't even remember what they said, but I do know I was terrified and that works for some people. Like it's an act, it's an actual technique to be terrified. You produce like sports. If you're used to sports, like Mike Ditka is a real, but he had the best team that ever lived. And the bears, you know, so like, um, it works for some people I think
Speaker 4: (01:16:54)
So said that that was for me, like he reminded me of a coach of a, literally a hockey coach that I had, you know, and it was like, I understand this, man. I understand this lingo. I understand that I gotta go harder. And it's, it's about striving for something better. And, and uh, but I can also understand how you might be like, Hey man, I'm just like a kid trying to just smell
Speaker 5: (01:17:20)
And that's. And that just brings me back to like, it's a weird thing to go to a conservatory when you're 17 years old, because it's expecting a lot, um, from people whose brains are not developed and some people thrive, thrive, and look, we made it through. So I'm not saying, you know, like all his loss, but it's so fascinating to me to see what works for different people. You know what we're on onset. It's the same thing. So I have had directors that have been like super cuddly and I do great work. And then I've had directors that say, stop all that. What you're doing, don't do that and do something else. And I'm like, but I think that there are good lessons. You know, we learned by pain and we learned by, but it's it. We were just, you know, it was hard when you're a kid. It's just hard. It's hard when you're a kid. Yeah.
Speaker 4: (01:18:03)
Well, it's hard not to feel like, you know, this is the gospel, like you're in this school and it becomes your whole world. Right. It becomes acting. It becomes the acting world to you. And it's hard to not realize it's impossible actually to not think this is just a few opinions. This is like not, this is not the world of, of a career in acting and theater, whatever film and TV. This is just a few people like, you know, and this is just, and like, you look around at the other actors and there's all this, Oh, who's doing what? It doesn't matter. Like it like, but you don't, you can't, but you can't separate it when you're that age because you're in it, you're in the bubble. And like, w what else are you going to do? How do you, how do you have anything to compare it against? You have no life experience?
Speaker 6: (01:18:48)
No, that, that is so deep. It's just a few, it's a few people's opinions. And like, to somebody who's in theater school right now, who's in the middle of like this intense questioning of themselves. Whenever I would say that at the, not that you shouldn't take it to heart, you shouldn't try to integrate meaningful notes. You shouldn't take it seriously. But like, at the end of the day, you know, it's not as if there's a big caucus of all, you know, people who, who, who taken acting performances and they all say, yes, what David says is right. That is, that is what acting is. Or, you know, it's, it's, it's just sort of his idea. I wanted to hear just also a little bit more about, um, you know, I, it sounds like you did theater in high school, so you had some, some sense of, of it. It may or may not have been the kind of intense and rigorous theater that you ended up doing at the theater school, but like, how did your expectation of what you were going to experience there? Match up with the reality?
Speaker 4: (01:19:50)
Oh, that's a good question. Well, first of all, I don't know what I was expecting. I guess I was expecting, you know, I'm going to be that kid in the photo. Right. But the old timey costume on doing the theater. Right. So I guess I thought we were just going to put on costumes all day and do accents. I had no clue what I was getting into none. So like the first day. Okay. So the night before, the first day, some guys in the dorm were like, Hey, Lee, you want to go to, um, uh, a bar is called Kelsey's right. Kelsey, Kel. Maybe it was Kelly's. Yeah. I don't know what it was, but they were like, you buy a mug for five bucks and then for a quarter you get to fill it up all night with beer. Right. I was like, Oh, that sounds good.
Speaker 4: (01:20:36)
Let's go. Okay. Terrible, terrible. Okay. Because the next morning at eight 30 or whatever, I'm in yoga class and my jeans, by the way, not even this it's, cause I didn't know, I was supposed to wear sweats, hung over and I'm doing dog pose for the first time. I've never even knew this thing existed. You know, I'm like, what is this? And I'm not feeling good. And then the rest of the days like that, it's like pelvic clock and ha and all the. And then by the end of the day, it's like, you're eating thick space. And I'm just like, what have I gotten into, what is this place? It, I did no clue. Right. So kind of for the first quarter, like I, or trying whatever it is, I did not get, I was not getting it, but then it clicked, then something clicked and I totally got it and all that stuff.
Speaker 4: (01:21:24)
I was like, I was like, give me more of this. Like I loved once I understood having awareness of what that is, have awareness of your, you know, your body and the way you breathe and what you move and all that stuff. I was like kind of an addict. Like I wanted as much of that as I could get. Um, and, um, and it really worked. And again, I thought the teachers were great. Like, they, they really did a great job teaching that. Um, but I did not think that's what I was getting into in any way. And it made, you know, I'm sure for you guys to make conversations, you go home for Christmas, like, what are you studying? Studying yoga. People are like, what? Yoga? I think
Speaker 6: (01:22:03)
I made $30,000 a year
Speaker 4: (01:22:05)
Going to doing yoga. What do you, what? And I'd try to explain it, although I had no reference. Oh, because it's, um, you know, uh, acting is a, you I'd be like, I don't know why. I don't know.
Speaker 6: (01:22:17)
I mean, I think my mom said you're making yogurt. Like that was kind of along the lines. So I get ya. Yeah. So it's, it's um, bothered. I talk a lot about cults and the theater school is, is a, is a kind of a cult. Um, but mostly from the perspective that it's very hard to explain to anybody else what it is that you're doing there. And it's, um, and it's so all consuming. I mean, in part it's because of the schedule, because they had us busy from morning till night, but it's also being, learning, acting is, is so much about either changing or at least event valuating, like what's happening with you as a person. So if it's well for you,
Speaker 5: (01:23:06)
You're, you're, you're integrating these ideas and these new skills and these, but you're also like reconciling it with your understanding of who you are as a person. You're literally developing your identity as you are putting on other identities. It's just such a complete mind. Yeah,
Speaker 4: (01:23:25)
It is. It, it was, it was very, it was all very confusing and that, and that's kinda what I meant when I said, I feel like the fourth year should really be about, you've got all these things in your toolbox now, and then now we're gonna, we're gonna forget about all that stuff now. It's there, you got it. You know how to move and you know how to, you got great posture now and your voice is totally locked in. Okay. Now let's just, let's bring you to this. Let's bring you who you are to this. And let's focus on that because that is the art, that's where the art happens. That's you know, and so, I dunno, I don't know. I don't know what they could've done differently, but there, there are certainly exercises that you could do and just spend the whole year, just like filling up, filling it up, filling it up with your own. And just being, being that, you know, being, being a full actor.
Speaker 5: (01:24:18)
It's so interesting because I, the one note that I got from a director that changed my life, that I feel like could have saved my life in school was he said, the thing you think about yourself, that isn't going to get you cast is the exact thing that's going to get you cast. And I said, what eight? I thought I was good. I said, can I give you a million dollars? You just, and Andy, and he said, figure that out because when you figure that out, you're going to be unstoppable and you're going to be totally undeniable. And I thought, Oh my God. Oh my God. So I think that, that if that had sort of come into play in that fourth year, I think it would have been an easier transition, but I know it's hard to teach that, but you're right. People do teach it and people. And so, um, what I'm thinking is that the three of us are gonna open up a fourth year. Acting's just called the fourth year. And that's, you know, but I hear what you're saying. It's like bringing us. We're like, you're okay at a girl, you studied, you got all the three years now, we're going to bring you to the work and you're show you how to do your best. So you book stuff and don't end up living on your parents' couch for 10 years or whatever,
Speaker 4: (01:25:32)
Because th th the funny thing is, as I reflect back on, on the time there is that, you know, I would get a role. Right. I get cast in a role, even if it's a scene in class, whatever let's say it's, um, brick kind of is another guy who kind of Hudson riff. Okay. Yeah. I remember doing that right. In my mind, there was a way to do that role. And I was striving to find the way to do that role. Like, there was an ideal that I was striving find instead of how do you do this role? Right. I always felt like I was trying to like, do what the, the thing that they wanted me to do. Right. And it never, no one ever said, no, no, do it your way, man. Don't, don't do it. Don't try to do what Brando did or whoever played the role first, do it your way we want your way. And it, and if someone said that to me, I feel like a light would have gone off. That's it?
Speaker 6: (01:26:32)
Yeah. It's the difference between working from the outside, in, or the inside out it's much easier to work from the inside out. It's, there's so much less, um, it's like a hat on a hat when you're trying to do Brando doing brick, who is doing, you know, whatever, it's much easier, if you can say, well, we'll just, what are the ways in which brick is likely not whether the ways in which Lee is like Brando doing yeah. Toward himself to be something that he can never ever be. And I do listen, it could be that they really did say this to me, and I just couldn't hear it, but I, I do really feel like it would have been nice to hear. Um, you're just finding the parts of yourself that are in this character. You're not trying to put this, you know, you know, whatever layer of paint over yourself and hope that nobody will and hope because for me, it was like, and hope that nobody sees what you're really like, because that's completely uninteresting and wrong for this. You have to, you have to just be this, this other person that has no connection to you.
Speaker 4: (01:27:42)
Well, I think that it's funny because I can't fault anybody. Like, I feel like, again, I feel like the teachers were all teaching their discipline really well. And they're, you know, I don't fault anyone, but I do feel like there was an overall, it was lacking. The school was lacking sort of an oval or overall strategy or philosophy that, that, that included that, that included, listen, we got to keep reminding these kids that, you know, this is about them. And this is like, as we're asking them to hit this ideal, let's also remind them that, you know, that it's about them becoming their own actor person in this, you know, cause everyone's just saying, no, you gotta do better than that. Better. Not better than that, but like it's like, but w right, I'm only a kid. I don't know how to do better than that.
Speaker 5: (01:28:37)
Starting from the premise of, and there's a S there's a school in Chicago called Blackbox Academy that a friend of mine started that literally the one of their tenants is you are enough because, and you are enough let's people. So off the hook for tea, and you are enough, be better at this particular thing. Like, you're not great at your voice, but you are enough. And, and it gives you freedom to be like, Oh, Oh, I don't have to. So, but it's really hard. It's hard to teach that at the same time, not let people off the hook for their bad habits. So I think it becomes a way of trying to trick each, like, tease it out of what. So that's why, you know, it's a hard thing to have an acting school because such a bizarre thing to do to mix of psychology. It's a mix of, um, human behavior and body language. I mean, it's a whole, I, yeah.
Speaker 4: (01:29:31)
I reckon that there's a lot of challenges and there's a very fine line and it is true. Like, it's like you can't, you know, I'm looking at from their point of view and it's like, they, they can't become a parent to every kid there. They can't like expect every kid to just dump all their, all their out because that's becomes kind of dangerous and it crosses lines and stuff. So, so I recognize that there's a real challenge in trying to figure out, okay, how do you get, get these kids to go deeper and bring more of themselves, but also like not want it though, to like, you know, not have that, you know, it's challenge, it's challenging, challenging. It's challenging, you know?
Speaker 5: (01:30:09)
Yeah. And I said, yeah. And I always feel like I have to couch all these things and saying like, I, you know, of course everybody was doing their best. And, and, and it's not really a fault. It's more just like, it's not really, like, I'm trying to CA assign blame. It's more just as I get distance from this experience, I'm able to piece it together in such a way to figure out where the disconnects were. For me personally, it may have been different for other people and, you know, but, but it's important for me too, because even though I don't spend any time at all acting, I still am really fascinated with the craft of it. And it's still important for me. I feel like I still can reap the benefits of what I learned there, because I can think back to it without all of the anxiety about like, am I not enough? You know, look it through with adult eyes. It's better that way. Sure. The podcast. Yes. Funny story.
Speaker 4: (01:31:10)
This is, um, so you guys were both you're behind my year, right? Yeah. Okay. Do you remember your God squad party? Do you remember? Do you remember what it was that I was, uh, it was at our apartment. Do you remember that? Who's Val, Val and Sean and, and, uh, okay. So we decided, I think it was, I think it was my idea. It was a sort of a silly idea, but we decided for this year God's squad party, everybody must bring a can of, um, canned goods to be given to Chicago homeless. That was our way to like, turn this like drunken Fest something nice. Okay. So everyone bring a canned good. And that's your attendance to the party. Okay. So have this huge party. Everyone brings not just one bringing in handfuls of canned goods, right? So that we've got all these canned goods next morning, wake up, there are apartments filled with canned goods.
Speaker 4: (01:32:06)
We have boxes and boxes of them. And, um, so I'm like, okay, I'll call the homeless Chicago homeless authority or whatever, whoever it was, call them up and say, Hey, we had a party, we got a bunch of canned goods for you guys. Um, we want to donate them so you can come get them. And they're like, Oh, we don't come get, you got to bring them to us. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, I'll figure that one out. So we thought how we can't carry them. And we're poor. We can't even get a cab or whatever, but we'll get to it. We'll get, we'll get these Kangas in them. So a couple days later we're sitting there watching TV, Bao walks, and he's like, you guys mind if I have one of those chef Boyardee? And we're like, no, go ahead. And I'm thinking Jeff wired, he sounds pretty good. Right now we ended up eating every can good all the way down to like the only thing left was like cocktail, onions and stuff.
Speaker 1: (01:32:58)
It was basically, you had a rent party, but you, but, but instead of being honest about it,
Speaker 4: (01:33:08)
But the, it ended up, I saw your calls. You guys are the denti more bandits.
Speaker 1: (01:33:14)
[inaudible] Chicago Wrigley field. I survived theater school. It's an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.
Intro: We should all be paying more for food.
Let Me Run This By You: Who would you be if you were ONLY nature with no nurture. Also, Jack White, Fran Lebowitz, and introducing the flexapology.
Interview: We talk to Jonas Abry! Getting cut, Tisch, being a child actor, voiceovers, Joe Lieberman, Mother Night, figuring out your identity with fedoras and pipes, Westchester Broadway Theatre, playing the Scarecrow, playing Peter Pan, being a blond-haired blue-eyed King of Siam, playing Michael Banks, Costal Disturbances with Annette Benning, Running on Empty, Slaves of New York, Dorcas Johnson, Police Story, Journey of the Fifth Horse, Meisner Studio, Stella Adler, pivoting to teaching, the performance energy of teaching 9th grade, being Mr. Abry, teacher and Jonas Abry, dad. Also, actor schmactors, Sidney Lumet, being treated like a little brother by River Phoenix, Christine Lahti, Judd Hirsch, Martha Plimpton, rent parties, Apartment 3, smoking cigarettes, and clashing with the Scene Study teacher. Jonas closes by talking about being happy with his choices, leaving acting behind, and embracing family life.
Intro: Gina and Jen talk pitch decks, learning new skill sets, Circle of Confusion Fellowship, the conundrum of praise, query letters, literary management, and negging.
Let Me Run This By You: codependency, why is it always our job to protect assholes?, invalidation, fear of conflict. Also, Heaven's Gate, Wild Wild Country, post-pandemic travel plans, and LA Influencers.
Interview: We talk to Nick Bowling! Dreams of Gene Kelly, "determining your path", The Lesson, Free Will and Wanton Lust, Mother Courage and Her Children, Kevin Hagan, Tristan and Isolde, building an ice moon with hot burning plastic in a classroom filled with water directly above a computer lab, Mary Zimmerman, Timeline Theatre, The Killing Game, Glascott's, antiques, Pat Tiedemann, PJ Powers, Brock Goldberg. Juliet Hart, John Guare, playing head games as a director, mentorship, Conner Wilson, History Boys, Joe Slowik, and Jim Ostholthoff.
Intro: Boz leaves her MFA program. We talk about the Midwest approach to "sticking it out", the perils of mentorship, consolidating power and amassing fortunes, 2021 as the Year of Big Asks, hiding out at institutions of higher learning,
Let Me Run This By You: choosing not to cater to White Fragility, "progressives" and their art, 2021 as the Year of Is This a Waste of My Time?,
Interview: We talk to Jess Hanna! Making your living in theatre in LA, Ithaca, Cornell Savoyards, Trial By Jury, Showboat, The Hangar Theatre, You Never Can Tell, Bob Moss, Playwrights Horizons, Bob Fosse, Delroy Lindo in Joe Turner's Come and Gone, Gregory Hines in Jelly's Last Jam, Sarafina, Hofstra, Burn This, Bootleg Theater, Aubrey Payne, making changes at TTS, cast list traditions, SITI, theatre in LA, the importance of making sure your unions are representing your best interests, the realities of making a living as an artist, the importance of early mentorship, and being "in the ring".
Intro: Gina and Jen talk peasant DNA, jobs, the specific experience of being employed by the Catholic Church and how that convinced Nicolas Cage to hire Jen, making the quarterfinals of the CineStory TV writing contest.
Let Me Run This By You: on the topic of Woo Woo culture, does one have to buy in to the whole culture or can they just adopt the tenets? Also, having a finely tuned bullshit meter, the allure of MLMs, spending $90k at the Bodhi Tree, The Power of Now, The Secret, Oprah's podcast,
Interview: We talk to Larry Bates! The agony of clashing with your Audition class teacher, wanting to attend a "prestigious-sounding" school, almost becoming an aeronautical engineer, almost auditioning in New Orleans with a monologue by a quadriplegic character, My Children! My Africa!, the various factors that might play into choosing a school in Chicago (proximity to the Bears among them), living in U Hall, Sanctuary, the bliss of ignorance, choosing to transition away from being the class clown, having to maintain an academic scholarship in a setting where you're being graded on your art, charming your teachers, Antigone, Diary of Anne Frank, A Raisin in the Sun, being pre-cast in Six Degrees of Separation, Peter Pan, The Mountaintop, when people with unrealized artistic dreams are teachers who project their inadequacies on to you.
TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:08):
I'm Jen Bosworth-Ramirez.
Gina Pulice (00:00:09):
and I'm Gina Pulice.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:11):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
Gina Pulice (00:00:15):
20 years later, we're digging deep -talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:00:20):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
Gina Pulice (00:00:31):
Really? I actually, I started to write a blog post. I couldn't,
Gina Pulice (00:00:34):
I've been really like struggling to figure out what I would want a topic for a blog post to be. And, um, so I was looking through my notes folder, where I keep all my little ideas and, and I had always wanted to write an essay about how I've had 37 jobs. And I wanted to write about, yeah, I've had 37 jobs, but of course I don't want to just list all my jobs I have to, you know, and it has to be gearing up to a point, but it got me down a rabbit hole yesterday because I started the essay by talking about how my doing my own DNA revealed I'm 100% peasant. Like there is not one, you know, noble or even anybody living above the poverty line.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:01:24):
Really. Wow.
Gina Pulice (00:01:26):
And so it makes a lot of sense because when I have a big job, like Aaron is frequently commenting.
Gina Pulice (00:01:33):
Wow. You just, uh, you just keep working, you just, you know, put your head down and keep working. And I'm like, yeah, what's, what's the alternative. But in my family, I think I got my first official job. I mean, it was a babysitter, et cetera, but I think I got my first official job kind of late because I was 17 and my sister worked all the way through high school. She worked, started working at the dairy queen. I think she was just barely 14. And my dad started working early. And, uh, anyway, so it's like, work is like, the work ethic is really, that's the one thing I'll say about my, you know, my family that's unequivocally positive. Is that everybody works hard. Yeah. You know, I have no slackers in my family,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:02:17):
No slackers. And I think, you know, I, the guy I used to date that then died, he used to say, he used to say, um, loopy. That was my nickname. He would say, loopy, you are a worker, a worker, and a doer. You come from peoples that are workers and doers. You're a real doer. And that can be great. And that can also be a trap. Right. So doing, doing, as we know is, but it's gotten me. I've probably had, I probably haven't had 37, but I've had a lot. And you know that you and I had the same job.
Gina Pulice (00:02:51):
I just, you got to tell everybody the story about the job we had.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:02:55):
Well, you had at first, so there was a church. Um, I won't name it because I don't know. I guess it doesn't really matter, but there's a church, a Catholic church, a very large Catholic church, a very old Catholic church. I mean, Catholic old. Yeah. Um, in Chicago that had a rectory. It still does. I'm sure. And in the rectory, there was a secretary named Barb and she needed an assistant if I'm correct some kind of helper. And that was Gina and Gina was that helper. And when Gina moved on, Jen B became the helper. So we were assistants to the secretary at the rectory of a Catholic church, but
Gina Pulice (00:03:36):
That doesn't even give no greatest description of what the job is. So part of a big part of the job, maybe the biggest part of the job was answering the door when homeless people came because they had a policy of giving. Now, what did you think about the policy of giving cookies? I mean, you know, that's all, I think that's all it was, was cookies.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:03:55):
It was, it was here's your cookies and soap. Good luck. This soap might taste better than these cookies from 1988. No, it was ramen. We had to fill the, the ramen. It was a cup of noodles and we filled it and I burned myself every time and we, and we, it was new, but you're right. It was basically a cup of ramen cookies and something else. It might've been so something like that. And, um, and I just thought, I mean, people came, that's what we did. We answered the door and gave the food, answered the door, gave the food.
Gina Pulice (00:04:33):
My favorite part of that job was doing the counting, the take the weekly, the weekly money collection because my mom went to that church and I knew all of these people like through her. And I just got so much joy about like being in a setting with my mom and them and being like, I know exactly how much money
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:04:58):
That is. Fantastic. My favorite part was having these really weird lunches with the church staff. Oh,
Gina Pulice (00:05:06):
Oh, that was bizarre. So uncomfortable. So uncomfortable
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:05:11):
Go to the basement where there was a kitchen and we'd all have these, the weirdest meals ever. There was a cook who would cook, but we'd also order in on special days from like the Italian restaurant and the food was bizarre. It was like fish on Friday. It was just, and we're sitting there and like, you know, you and I are like, we'd like to fancy ourselves hipster, hipster. And we're seeing there was 65 year old people talking about, who's getting baptized, who who's, who died. Who's
Gina Pulice (00:05:48):
It was so awkward. And the priest would sit at the head of the table and it was this old Polish woman. And it was like, you better like the food that has served. And it was okay. I mean, it was, but it wasn't very predictable, but I am the reason that we started ordering out because I couldn't take it after a while. I was like, Hey, can we order out? And she's like, Oh, I remember she used to say, Oh, Gina, I have my money budgeted down to almost a penny. And I said, uh, my treat Barb. Um, but, but then when father, when the priest found out about it, he said, no, no, no, well, let's do that for everybody. And so that's how, and it was the restaurant that I worked at via Carducci, which I can't remember. Did I work at there? I think I worked there at the same time as I worked at the church and uh, Oh, and Barb delighted in ordering, she would just pore over the menu, try something different than every Friday
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:06:49):
That I remember about Barb. I remember a lot of things. She had huge hands. She had these big meat, sausage hands. She wasn't a big person, but she had like big limbs. Like she was loving, even though she wasn't like a person. And then she, and she, and she would pore over the menu. And also she had a very troubled son. God helped her. I don't know what happened to him would show up at church and I would have to field. She would be like, I don't want to see him. And so then of course, because I am who I am, I would get in the middle and like try to help him. And it was not good, but I had a blast there so I can thank you for that. I did have a blast. I learned so much and it got me hired. I never told you this. It got me how basically hired for Nicholas cage. Did I never told you this story? So, because that was your admin experience. And he looked at my resume and said, Oh, you worked for a Catholic church. Awesome. You're hired basically. So Gina got me my job in LA.
Gina Pulice (00:08:00):
Okay. I love that so much. Uh, did I ever tell you about when I tried to seduce the priest? Okay. That is the greatest thing I've ever heard. Okay. So we had this young priest. I don't really know what my deal was. He w he was fine. He was fine. He wasn't ugly, but he wasn't particularly attractive. I, I think what it was was he liked me. I mean, I, I think he just liked me, like, as a person, it wasn't like anything romantic, but I, I think at that point in my life, I interpreted any attention that I got from a man as like, okay, this is a potential romantic interests. And I think I just got really taken away by the idea that maybe I could get this guy to leave, to break his vows. Yes. And I'll tell you something. It felt like it almost happened. Uh, there was a moment. It happened in the church. I was doing something in the church and I was standing on a ladder and it was all, it was very like close. And guess what about two weeks after that? He moved to a different congregation. No way.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:09:18):
Fantastic. Right there. That's going in Agnes of fraud, somehow
Gina Pulice (00:09:24):
Putting a person
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:09:24):
That works in the office that, Oh my gosh, another woman that works in the opposite. It's also like a cult-y. Oh my gosh. That is brilliant.
Gina Pulice (00:09:35):
Yeah. Yeah. Right there. Yeah. It was a great job. It was a great job. But anyway, how do we get started talking about jobs?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:09:45):
So you said you had 37 jobs and you were talking about your book.
Gina Pulice (00:09:47):
That'd be cool. Right? Cause I was writing a blog post. Yeah. Finished it yet. I'll send it to you. So we made
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:09:53):
The quarter finals of the Cintas story, Really competitive, like, um, awesome. Been around forever. And I got the email and I was like, Oh, this is so great because I've been like mooching people too. I had to notice the two showrunners again and never heard back from them about like, Hey, and then, so this was, it was just, it was a much needed, um, no much needed when I think. Yeah, for sure. Final said semis and then finals, maybe.
Gina Pulice (00:10:25):
So, uh, do you know any, do you have any idea about how many submissions they get?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:10:31):
So I have a friend. Um, I'm going to ask her. I don't know if the answer is no, but I know it's a lot. And I know that if we get to, according to what I read, if we get to the semis, we're invited to the retreat, which you still have to pay for, but it's a virtual, it's all virtual this year. And, um, it's like my friend said the retreat changed her life. Like she met her agent and I think she met and she met producers and they bring in like top of the line people and it's, so I'm really hopeful. And I also, um, I'm grateful that it's all virtual. That way you can do it. It's not,
Gina Pulice (00:11:05):
It's fantastic. We'd
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:11:06):
Make it work anyway, but it's not, it's in Idlewild. I mean, it used to be in Idlewild, California. That's a schlep obviously with coven and whatever, so yay for, for it being virtual. But I just really, I, I liked that. My friend said it's a really good one and I've read really good things about it. So I'm happy about that.
Gina Pulice (00:11:23):
That's so cool. I'm grateful to you for doing all of the submitting to these various contests. It's a lot to keep track of.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:11:31):
Oh no, no. It's E I love it. That's like my jam. If I could enter contents all day, I would like raffles or like a submission. I like, you know,
Gina Pulice (00:11:40):
I think you probably can. I like you remember those people that made their living, like they figured out how to get their groceries for free by doing coupons. I bet you could make a living off of raffles, but you would have to work really hard at it.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:11:54):
Yeah. I feel like that's maybe what Barb did in retirement.
Speaker 5 (00:12:03):
Let me run this by you. Okay.
Gina Pulice (00:12:15):
Fundamentally believe in most of the woo stuff. Yeah. Like I don't really disagree with it. I agree with it, but I don't want to do the culture around it. I totally hear you. And I don't, and it just occurred to me today. Like maybe you don't, maybe if you don't want to do the culture around it, you don't, it's not really your, your belief. Do you really mean, like, I totally know what you mean. And I have a follow-up question for you, which is, is it, um, uh, the rebel nature in you that doesn't want to join? Or is it that you think the people that can be really annoying or what, what is the thing that really gets your goat? Well, it's not, it's not the thing that, that, it's not that it's often used in a scammy way, even though it is often used in a scammy way, but that doesn't bother me cause anything is used in a school.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:13:23):
Um, do you know what I think? Okay. I think this one is when I hear people talking about it. Yeah. So boring sounding. Okay. So that's it. So you are bored by the woundedness of the culture and maybe wondering too, if it, like, for me, what happens is it, it, it borders into really just being privileged talk. Yeah. Like recreate our abundance. Meaning if you're, if you, if you're unhoused, you've created that unhoused situation. I think for me, if you have any sort of social justice bone in your body, an alarm goes off and you start thinking, well, that's garbage because that means that, you know, people who are down on their luck or have created this whole situation or their cancers, I can't stand that as having lived through so many cancers. Yeah. So maybe it's that part of, part of it, but the essential message that we all deserve.
Gina Pulice (00:14:30):
Abundance, I think is a good one. It's just that we don't all have the same tools to get there. Yes. That, and also it's the same reason I'm I don't ever want to talk to anybody about being a mom, like ever, because people get this like glossy glazed, like aye, aye. And it's also feels somewhat superior. It has this always feeling superior. Like I was listening to somebody talk about like, you know, crystals and rocks and, and that's boring just talking about crystals and rock boring. But, but then like this, there's the subtext of like M and I, you know, thank God I figured it out. I just figure it out. I'm always cool. And I'm always serene and it just, it feels like a lie. I wish people could talk about it in a way where it's just really honest and direct. Like yeah.
Gina Pulice (00:15:31):
Sometimes the crystals don't work. Sometimes I think it just because I took my antidepressant that I felt better to do work and like, but it's also it's, it is a little, the joiner thing. I don't really like joining a joiner, which is not a joiner. Ooh. I like to be part of a community. I don't know. I'm a contradiction. I think.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:15:55):
Well, I think part of it too, is just that you, you have a very keen radar. And I also think that you're like the worst person to target for a multi-level marketing scheme, because is you, you can sense. And you also are able to say, I've really not interested in this as where I ended up with 40 million chotchkies or Rhodan and fields meets, meets, you know, neutral, this meets, uh, because, um, uh, Pete, my people pleasing problems. So I not into a multi-level marketing scheme before became a rep, but believe me, I have supported many of friends, vitamin juice or whatever.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:16:39):
I don't know all kinds of pills I did about it that you you're like, that's amazing. Wow. You, you, it like you're telling me changed your life. This lady who lives on my street, she's starting selling jewelry for one of these crappy things. And she's like, you know, and I'm like happier and I'm, and I'm, and I feel better. And I look, and I have more money and it's just like, Oh my God, that's amazing. Is that from selling this jewelry?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:17:08):
Yeah. That, and that goes back to what I texted you the other day, which is that hope and belief in oneself is contagious. That is the thing that people want. They don't want the crappy chatchki jewelry because I never wear it after I get it. I want that hope. That's what we're looking for. Yeah, that's right. That is what we're looking for.
Gina Pulice (00:17:30):
So, and it also maybe it's that like your options for that or religion or spirituality, right.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:17:40):
Or in cap or buying consuming, or like some kind of consuming, but you're right. It, you, the joining is limited. We don't have a lot of community. I mean, I think that speaks to a larger problem. We don't, so that we create these communities out of multilevel level marketing things or religion or whatever it is to feel like, yes, we could do this really. We're just, it's like, it always comes down to, for me, what we, you and I talk about, which is it's a confidence game. It's a, in the best way, I don't mean a scam, but I mean, like it's about that feeling of my life is good now. See, and it's because of this chatchki jewelry from the Czech Republic or whatever.
Gina Pulice (00:18:23):
Okay. What if there was a store that like the, like the Bodhi tree or like, and, and you work there, you owned it or whatever. And when people came in and said, like, I'm feeling, uh, you know, I want to, I want to have abundance when you, and you've got an abundance candle and you've got this and you see that the person look, I mean, really what this is. It's not the candle it's that you are choosing to focus on your own abundance. Like, so that, I mean, just FYI, like please buy the candle because otherwise business, but also know that it's really not about the CA I just, it was just the scene that seemingly like a little bit of a lack of honesty.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:19:12):
I agree. And I think the hard part is that the, that these people who did that talk like that at, for me, the madness is they are not aware that it's not about the candle or if they are, if they are, it's too hard to do the work about abundance or whatever the issue is, they'd much rather spend 10 99 on the candle because that's a quick, that's no one will, I guess it comes down to, nobody wants to do the freaking work.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:19:40):
He wants to do the work. When you worked at the Bodhi tree, did, were you expecting,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:19:46):
I really believed in the woo woo stuff, but I did not. I also had, I think the thing about both of us is that we have a sense of humor. So I also, because you know, being not from LA and B, I D I just thought some of it was hilarious. Like, like Madonna came in and, and bought, um, you know, people just buy hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise. And I was like, this is insane. And I just got off on it because I thought it was the, and look, I was 24. So I, I didn't, it didn't strike me as, this is so sad because everyone's starving. And this person is buying literally $300,000 worth. I mean, they would clean us out of, come on.
Gina Pulice (00:20:31):
Are you serious $300,000. ?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:20:32):
Well, like I remember the highest bill someone had, people would come in with, um, black American express cards, which have no limit or have some. And there was a, there was a Lantus Morissette came in and did some serious damage. The, uh, the music producer, Rick Rubin, who produced the Beastie boys and the chili peppers, and anyone who looks wears no shoes and looks like a monk. He came in and I think his total was, he had two different cards because he had to call and say, I'm not being scammed and all this stuff. But I think his total was something like $90,000. Uh, I mean, did your cash register to do it in sections? Like, but he had like truckloads. I mean, it was crazy. It was crazy. So I think I was just like in awe and I didn't realize that with that abundance of his comes, someone's paying the price somewhere.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:21:33):
Someone's not getting abundant that way. And I was making seven, 13, $7 and 13 cents.
Gina Pulice (00:21:39):
How about share some abundance this away?
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:21:42):
Right? How about tipping us? Well, we couldn't take tips, but, but meanwhile, yeah, it was crazy. And I just remember the big book that was really popular when I was, there was the Eckhart Tolles, uh, the power of now and the power of now my big joke was people would come in and be like, I need the power of now. And I'd be like, you need it right now. Don't you right now. And they'd be like, that is not funny. But I thought it was really funny and we'd always be out of the book and I'd be like, they did not think it was funny. Cause I was kind of being a jerk. I was like, Oh, you need a right now. Do you need the power of Now right now?
Gina Pulice (00:22:17):
Yep. You're on it. It's the humorlessness of it. I don't like any humorless situation. Like if you can't, you know, because there is something funny in like every situation and, and, and it's not just that you're not the other person isn't like making a joke of it it's that they don't, they don't, they're just taking themselves and every, and it all so seriously. I think that's the part.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:22:43):
That is the part that's probably from an outsider. You know, if we view as the crux of your, like your anger or your annoyance about it is that there is, there is no levity. There is no like, okay, we're literally talking about a crystal that has been charged in the sun and has special powers. And this is literally bonkers, but it might work. I mean, so that's, that's what you're saying is that there's no theory of there.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:23:14):
Everything is one note. So, and that's not funny when something's one and the one note is this is so serious. If I don't get these Kabbalah books, I'm going to, you know, I'm not the set of Kabbalah books for $1,600, special ordered, I'm gonna bad. Things are gonna happen and you know, they could happen. But I bet it's not because you didn't get the Kabbalah books. I bet it's because life is hard and people die and get cancer.
Gina Pulice (00:23:38):
Absolutely. So, um, what I find myself doing is I want to, I want to want to be this person because, because like I said, I there's so much basic, I think wisdom and so much of that stuff. Like I'm the kind of person who will download every episode of Oprah's podcast and never, I've never once listened to it for one second, listen to, but I want to want to listen to it. And I think, and maybe it's because I'm just saying to myself, like you should, you should really listen to it. You need serenity. Now you need whatever, like the secret. But I, I can't bring myself to do it. I just watchthe office again.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:24:25):
There you go. And I remember when the secret came out, we, I was at your house. Um, and in Chicago and I said, and I said, the secret they're like showing it at whatever, whatever, and both you and your husband are like, that's such garbage. And, but, but, and I remember thinking it is kind of garbagy and I'm still gonna watch it, but it's not the whole picture. Their secret is not the whole picture. It's, it's what they say, which is for me. Anyway, my, one of my mottoes is trust in God. I have to believe that I had higher power situation, but I say trust in God, but tie your camel to the pole, like take care of your business. And you can use all the crystals you want, but still do your dishes because you're going to get roaches, if you don't.
Gina Pulice (00:25:14):
Absolutely. And you know, when I think the reason that we had that reaction is our downstairs. When we lived there, our downstairs neighbor was really into the secret and it was literally the only thing she talked about. And every time it came up, I mean, I like was avoiding the laundry room. I was, I just didn't. And every time I came up, all I could think is, yeah, you live in like a tiny room. She was like 60 years old. And she lived in a tiny room in a apartment. I remember her, her apartment. Yeah. Her room. I just, I don't think you, this is not a secret!
Gina Pulice (00:26:02):
today on the podcast. We have Larry Bates, the talented Mr. Bates, you know him from so many things he's currently starring on, in strange woods. He's been an LA his finest cherish the day, uh, sunny side, miss Virginia, big little lies. N C I S uh, he's just been in a ton of stuff. He's a fantastic actor, a wonderful guy. And we had a great interview. So I hope you enjoy it. .
Gina Pulice (00:26:28):
Larry Bates. Congratulations. You survived theater school.
Larry Bates (00:26:34):
Thank you.
Gina Pulice (00:26:34):
How painful was it? Just get, just, let's get right to the nitty gritty.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:26:40):
Let's go right to it. How painful was it?
Larry Bates (00:26:42):
Uh, You know, there's Degrees of pain. I w I would say degrees of pain, but, You know, I don't know. I didn't, it wasn't, it, it Wasn't that painful For me really. That's good. Maybe first year, first year was definitely painful. And there were parts of fourth year, especially our like outgoing audition class was very painful. And like I said, there was, there was some very, there was some varying degrees of pain throughout, but overall, I mean, it was, I mean, it's, I mean, I got to do yoga and, and, and, and sleep. And Phyllis's class,
Gina Pulice (00:27:22):
You paid a pretty penny to do yoga.
Larry Bates (00:27:26):
That is true. Well, that's diff well, I'll tell you what those, uh, uh, student loans, that's definitely painful. That's that's definitely
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:27:32):
Curious. I just, I'm just really curious about this. Uh, I will just jump right into the fourth year and whatever someone's like, that was the really Pam, like, that's what I want to hear about.
Larry Bates (00:27:41):
Here's the thing I don't want to, I could, Jan, I could, I could, I could do it. I don't want, I don't want to, I don't want to trash, I don't want to trash this. It was just, it was just, it was just not, you know, here's the thing without, without, without trashing someone really bad. And, and you would think it's been 20, 20 some odd years. I've let it go. But, you know, you spend, I just feel like you spend four years there, you know, hopefully building up your confidence and then you get in this class. And I just felt like it was a lot of garbage. Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of like, uh, someone trying to pretend that they were bigger than who they were, and you're dealing with a lot of young kids who are like, anxious to know what's going to happen after they graduate. And they're looking at you, like you actually know. And, you know, so I just think it, I think it did a disservice to a lot of what we have learned going through, um, going through school and then to actually get out in the professional world and for it to be validated like, Oh, you really had no clue, really. Just,
Gina Pulice (00:28:47):
Just to make you feel better, that person gets trashed a lot on this podcast. So we cut it out. You know, we are way like, bleep the name, something like that, because the thing about it is like, you should be able to talk about your experience. And actually, this is a theme in my mind recently, like, why are we always having to protect like the really people? Why, you know, why, why can't we just call out people for who they are, but, you know, I know there's, you have to be political.
Larry Bates (00:29:16):
Well, I would say this, if I wasn't being, if I wasn't being recorded, I would on shot on the leash on. Cause I agree with that. I want, I want people to, I want people to know that people are people. You know,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:29:30):
The thing that I love about this podcast is that w well, that I'm finding is that, yeah, it's not, it's not even about trashing them. It's about like your experience, Larry Bates, as an actor, going through the school and then graduating and seeing how that looks at as Gina would say in the rear view mirror and, and the things you've learned and the things that were painful and also stuff that you would change. And, um, I just, do you think that the actual, um, schooling did not, uh, line up with what you then learned when you were on sets and stuff like that, or when you said, you know, how you said it was different than
Larry Bates (00:30:08):
Well, I mean, I, I, yes. I mean, I, I mean, I, nothing, most of what I, I got out of that audition class, I can't, none of that's really what I bring with me as an actor today, honestly, but to me it was more of kind of like, um, I don't know, you know, you spend four years. I mean, it's kinda hard to, you know, you know, you know, it's like even your pocket as I survived at theater school, cause it really is survival. And like these other, these other students who were studying other, other things don't understand don't necessarily understand what it's, what it, what it does to you to have to kind of deal with yourself daily. You know what I mean? And to deal with, you know, you're, you're in school, you have these, these, these hopes, these dreams, and like you're pursuing them and it's, uh, it's fiercely competitive, you know, and, and at that time we still had the cut system where you had to be asked back, you know, two years and then you get into casting pool and you're, you know, it's very competitive to, uh, it's very competitive for parts and, and, you know, you, you, you develop friendships, you kind of have like quasi enemies and all that stuff, ultimately, but ultimately, but ultimately you come through school together and you, and I, I mean, I will say even still to this day, some of the best theater that I've seen has been from like the people that I went to school with, you know what I mean? Like, and just, you know what I'm saying? So, so watching that, like us come from freshmen to becoming like, okay, man, like we're ready to go. We don't know what's going to happen, but we're ready to go out and, and do it. And then to have someone come there because they have their own egos. And they're trying to pretend like they're bigger than somebody on their phone. Oh. And don't do it to me. It's just like, you know, so, so I'll say I do want to trash the person I would love to. I wouldn't really love to. So it's not just, um, it's not just like, Oh, because that's just like, okay, like you, like, instead of, instead of like telling these people, Hey man, you just, you just spent a ton of time, a ton of money, a ton of energy and sacrifice to learn this discipline, like teach us to be confident and go out nothing. You know, it may not be easy. It may not be easy, but like go out instead of giving us scare tactics, doing little slick stuff behind the back saying horrible stuff to people, you know? So stuff like that, it just, it just bothered me, but I will say. And so on set. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I just, I just don't think a lot of it was useful and I, and I will, I will say to this day, to me, for me personally, as an actor, you know, confidence is everything. Confidence is everything. So to me that is, that is valuable. And that doesn't mean like, you know, lay a glaze over what's to come. You can be real, but I dunno, there was just some stuff that was going on in that. I just remember when we wrote our evaluation of that class. And man, I, I wrote, you know, you, you have that little box where it asks you at the bottom, um, you know, like, do you have any other comments? And I know it wasn't just me. I wrote so much, I turned the paper over. I mean, I feel the whole thing out.
Gina Pulice (00:33:20):
Fantastic. So you mentioned theater and you've done a lot of great theater. You worked at the Goodman and you've had some amazing roles. Were you always a theater person? Is that why you chose a theater conservatory?
Larry Bates (00:33:33):
No, man. I, you know, no. I mean it's so here's so here's, um, here's also why maybe the school wasn't as painful for me. Like I was very, I was very raw in a lot of ways. Like I, I think I did my first full length play at DePaul. Um, honestly, um, I, when I was in, in high school, I did a lot of, um, like, you know, monologue competitions and, you know, forensics, you know, like duet acting competitions and stuff. And I'll tell you, I was, so I was so naive that the concept of re this is terrible, the concept of reading a play to understand what a, what a monologue meant, you know what I mean? Or, or, or, or, or, or, or, you know, so you get the context of the monologue or the context of the scene. I, I didn't even have that context. My, my, um, my, I wanted to be a lawyer. And my, um, my mom said, you know, you should get in, in speech classes. So I took speech and drama and my speech teacher would be like, you really need to do these, um, forensic competitions. You need to come do these speech tournaments. And I'm like, I ain't speaking in front of nobody, nobody at all. And then, and then she gave me the scene. It was the sunshine boys from Neil Simon star by Neil Simon. And I played uncle Willie. And we went, we, we, and again, I didn't read the whole play. I just read the scene. And I was like, Oh, this is funny. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll have some fun with this. And it was just, it was just everything. I was just like, I L I love this, I love this. I mean, part, you know, part of it was, I, I, you know, I was, we found some success in it, so I just got obsessed with it. And, you know, I was an AF I was an athlete too. And I was so obsessed with, with it that I quit football my junior year and was like, I just want, I just want to focus on acting. But here's the thing. When I look, when I look back now, I've been doing plays my whole life. And, you know, it was always of quick with it. But, but to answer your question, I didn't do like a lot of, like, any type of real organized, uh, we say organized like sports, but I didn't do any real, like, organize, organize theater before, before DePaul. So I was really there soaking up everything. Like, you know, if, if a teacher said, you know, breathe with your toes, I was trying to breathe in my toes. You know what I mean? So
Gina Pulice (00:36:05):
That's, that's a big leap though, to go from. I mean, because most people were just like drama nerds from day one. So when it came time to pick a school, were you looking at other acting programs where you're looking at other non-acting programs?
Larry Bates (00:36:23):
Yeah. It's it's uh, so this is yes. Yes, but not because I have to tell you. So I, like, I was, when I think about it now I have, I have no clue how I ended up at the theater school. I have no clue how I'm even right here,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:36:39):
Larry. It is you, you have to know that this is a common thing for some of us, I have the same thing. And so does Gina where we're like, we know what was happening and we still, and we're talking to people that are like, dude, I just, I went because my friend told me to audition or whatever. So this is anyway, I'm super excited. So how did you end up,
Larry Bates (00:37:02):
Oh, this is great. This is great. So, so I was, this is some of this stuff just makes me want to think about it. I was like, what, what were you thinking? You know? So it was all I knew is this, all I knew is I wanted to go to,
Gina Pulice (00:37:21):
Okay,
Larry Bates (00:37:21):
I want it to go to a prestigious sounding school. Okay. Because yeah, so we were, I was, you know, I was like, that was kind of like, um, you know, like I said, I was a little, I don't want it's a little over overachieve, a little in high school. Like I was in like tons of clubs. I was like student body president. I was in student government. You know what I mean? Um, but, but, and it was, we were kind of academically competitive, although the people who were at the top were at the top and I was, you know, I would cut corners because I could, and because it was like, eh, I'm not that challenged, but anyway, I'm saying all that to say that I wanted to go to a prestigious sounding school. So it'd be like, Oh, you know, when we had our high school, uh, we had our high school audit there, there was this thing. I went to a school called DeRidder high school in Louisiana. And, you know, at the end of the year, you have this big kind of like, um, session in the auditorium where they announced all the scholarships and for all the graduating people. So I was like, I just wanna, I just wanna walk up on the stage and be like, Larry bakes DePaul university. I was at DePaul something. But anyway, at the time, I wasn't even thinking of at the time, I wasn't even thinking about DePaul. I was, I was thinking about going to do undergrad somewhere, probably LSU, um, and you know, do some kind of a major and then try to go to law school. Um, or I was going to go to, I was looking at Embry-Riddle in Florida, uh, for aeronautical engineering.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:38:48):
Wow.
Larry Bates (00:38:52):
These are just, these are just, these are just dreams of mine, but it was like, Oh, that's, that's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go be an engineer. But when I remember when I was taking the act and all that stuff, I remember checking how much I love performance. So one day I go to the mail and there's this thing in there that says DePaul university. I was like DePaul. And I looked at it and it said, Chicago. I was like, Oh, Chicago. And I'd heard DePaul before, probably because of the basketball team. I was like, DePaul, that sounds very prestigious. You know? And then I saw them as peers going to South Chicago. And you know, I'm originally from Chicago. I grew up in Louisiana, but my dad and his side of the family lived in Chicago. So I was like, Oh my God, my dad is in Chicago. And I was like, and I can see the bears. I can watch the Chicago bears play every Sunday. I am going to this School. So, Well here, here's the thing I had, no, I didn't know what a conservatory was. I had no clue. And like, I got other stuff in the mail from like Carnegie Mellon and stuff like that. But like, I was just like, I'm going to DePaul and you have to understand. I, uh,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:40:03):
Horrible.
Larry Bates (00:40:05):
It's the only school I applied to m.
Gina Pulice (00:40:07):
Me too.
Larry Bates (00:40:08):
Too, which is, which is crazy Though, because if I wouldn't have got in, if, if I went to, my mom would have killed me like this concept of you're not going to college, it's not a, it's not a thing. And I, um, so I just applied. I'm like, yeah, I'll go here. I applied. And I remember, I remember, I remember my audition was in new Orleans and I had to drive to new Orleans, which was like four hours away. And my speech teacher gave me two, two plays. One was my children, my Africa. And I think the other one was like, whose life is it anyway. But one of them was about a guy who was a quadriplegic is, is from neck down. Right. And pear. Okay. Yeah. So it was a quadriplegic. So I was also very full of myself. So I'm like, Oh, I'm just going to do this. I'm going to, I'm going to do the monologue, uh, the quadriplegic. And again, and again, I didn't, I didn't read the play. I didn't read the play. I didn't have the concept of reading the play. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do that. I'm just going to sit there and just talk with my head and they're going to love, they're going to love me. They're going to love me. So I'm like, yeah. That's. So I, I work on that monologue for like two weeks, get in the car to drive to new Orleans. And I just go, you know what, Larry, maybe you should do something where you're a little more. Yes. So I'm learning the monologue from my children, my Africa on the car ride to new Orleans, David, David Avcollie, and John Bridges are, are in there. I'm doing a monologue. I forget. I forget. I go up on the lines in the middle of it, but I'm but you have to understand. I am. So it's like the, um, you know, ignorance is bliss. Like I've, I've, I'm just like, I went up so much. So I like just dropped down to the ground, got silent. I did something physically until it came back. And then I, And then I remember, I remember walking out And my mom was like, how'd it go? I was like, eh, I'm fine. Yeah. But I, but I was like, I'm going to get in.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:42:24):
You knew you were so clear, but yeah.
Larry Bates (00:42:28):
Didn't know. I was just like, I was just like, I was great. I mean, I didn't know, like I said, I wasn't that experienced either to be like, Oh yeah. You're. I mean, I just was just like, yeah,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:42:38):
Gosh, two things, one you're so much funnier than I ever remember you being, which is fantastic. I like that too. Where do you think that came from? That comp? I know you said ignorance is bliss, but there must be something else like, Whoa, where did that come from? That? Like, I got this kind of a switch.
Larry Bates (00:43:02):
Well, I, you know, I mean, I just, I mean, I, I guess I'd give credit to my mom, you know, it was just like, you know, kind of partly just growing up, it was just like, you know, just no excuses. Like, it could be harder for you. You might have to do this, but this is what I expect and I need you to do it. So it was just like, okay, cool. You know? So it was just like, no matter what was going on, it was just like, you, you just, I was just, it was just like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it happen. You know what I mean? So I guess a little bit of that. Um, and again, I did not, I did not, I did not know that it was, you know, you know, doing quilts with my hand. I didn't know. It was, you know, like tough to get in there. Like, you know, a lot of people applied. I, I didn't, I didn't know any of that. So I was just like, yeah, it's in Chicago, my dad's up there. I get to watch the Chicago bears play football. And that was the, the, the biggest thing. Yeah.
Gina Pulice (00:44:03):
I'm guessing it was somewhat of a surprise to you then what the program was actually like, if you hadn't been so keyed into theater and what the whole theater school training thing was, it must have been a lot of a whole new world for you. Yes. But I was,
Larry Bates (00:44:22):
I was, I was just open to whatever was being thrown my way. Like I was just like, okay, cool. I'll take it. I mean, there definitely were, I mean, me and my home, but home, whatever. There were times where we sit in, in like, um, a speech class or a movement class and, you know, everybody's being, so, you know, like what the, what the hell are y'all talking about? Like, what the hell are you talking about? You know, like here's all these stories and me and my boy, uh, kids see, we like 'em. Yeah. Yeah. But here, but I'll tell you, here's the other thing too. I was like, when I was done, like when I was done with classes, like I was done, I was just like, okay, cool, cool. I'm up, I'm up. I'm going to enjoy college. Like the college experience, the rest, the rest of DePaul. For the most part, I would say specifically like the, my first year, 100% and maybe second half of second year, I started becoming more of a, you know, cause theater school is its own thing. You know what I mean? So I'd say kind of second year, more third year. But, but I remember I did, I was just like, I'm done. And I remember first year people were like, yeah, I had a meeting with, with, um, you know, Rick and I'm like, what do you mean? You had a meeting with your teacher? Why are you going to be with that person? You know, we had class, we're done what's up. And then I, and then I did, I said, okay, well maybe I should be having a meeting. Maybe I should have a meeting. And I remember, I remember I remember making a meeting and he was like, you don't need to come and meet with me. I was like, Oh, okay, cool. Well, I'm about to go to the CAF.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:45:52):
So you did, you totally had the full DePaul experience. You lived in the dorms and had friends that weren't in the theater school.
Larry Bates (00:45:58):
I lived, I lived in the door. Did you live with athletes? I did. Eventually. I lived in the dorms my entire four years. So I lived in U hall first, which was, you know, a dorm dorm, but here's what was great. And this is part of, well, part of the reason why I did is I got into sanctuary, which is like the athlete, um, dormitory. So I was in the townhouse. So we have like this dope townhouse with like, you know, it was, it was, it was dope. It was really dope. So, um, so I lived there for like the next, uh, three, three years. So it was kind of like, you know, having independent living or off campus, but steel, steel, it being a adult.
Gina Pulice (00:46:40):
How did you get to that? If you're weren't playing sports for DePaul?
Larry Bates (00:46:45):
Cause, cause again, I was, I was, my circle was more than theater school people. First, first year I was just, I was just cool with everybody. I played pool all the time, go, God would go, go hoop, go to the basketball courts, go do every, so my pool, my, my, my circle was bigger than just theater school. And uh, so I was the, most of the cats that were in my, uh, in my dorm were track guys. So they were all, they were all track athletes, you know? So yeah.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:47:18):
You're the only person from the theater school in your dorm.
Speaker 6 (00:47:21):
Me and, uh, me and Christian Anderson. I don't know if you remember small boy kids. Yeah. Christian. Yeah. Me and him were, were living. And then, uh, he left after second year and then one of my other homeboys. Who's not a theater school guy, you know, he just, he moved in with me.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:47:41):
Did you, so you were never afraid. Were you on warning? Never, right?
Larry Bates (00:47:46):
No, I never, I mean, no, I never got a warning, but I was, I mean, I was afraid. I mean like that first year is like that first year is crazy. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, you don't think it, but it's crazy, you know, you're in, you're in, you're in class and you're do something. Cause again, I hear you. Here's the thing that first year is a monster. You know what I mean? Like every, and every year, you know, you see these first years come out crying and sobbing and I understand it because I felt the same way. I remember breaking down to my mom. Like I want to say it was like the summer. It's just like, it's hard. I guess it's just hard. And it's, it's, it's a weird thing to like, to communicate to people. Cause they don't really understand it. But like, you know, you always say, you know, you and I, I will say, I think there's probably parallels in, in athletics. You know? Like you, you go, I don't know, you go, I go to this school and I'm thinking, Oh, I got into this school. Oh, I'm great. So I still have this kind of ignorant, arrogant bliss, you know? And then you go into class and you do something and Rick, Murphy's looking at you, like, what is that? That's garbage. And now you're all of a sudden, you're like, I don't know who I am anymore. You know what I'm saying? You know? And, and I can also remember I was the class clown through like all, all through like Ella, you know, elementary school, junior high, high school. And I remember at DePaul, like everybody was funny and it was this thing where it was like this competitive class clownish and this going on. And I was like, I'm not as good as that guy or that guy. I can remember making a, I can, I can remember making a decision 100% trying to try to do little jokes. And um, and I remember Jason, uh, Jason, Flynn, or Jason, Jason, because I think it goes on to explain now, uh, Jason plan or dismiss, I'm sorry, I may have it wrong. But, and John Hogan Aker, these guys were like the funniest guys I've ever seen in my life. And I can remember they were just doing their thing. And I remember, I remember making a decision. Okay. You are not the class clown here. Like making a decision stop, trying to be funny.
Gina Pulice (00:50:06):
That's why Boz doesn't remember you being this funny because you were, you were being, were being serious actor. Larry.
Larry Bates (00:50:12):
I was being very, very, very serious, but all my friends from high school, they don't think that like, they're like, Larry's going to be on, Larry's going to be on Saturday night. They're Like, Larry is crazy. He's going to be on Saturday night live. So I, so I don't, I'm just saying that I was, I never got a warning, but I was, I was 100% like terrified. Um, I mean, yeah. You know, like improvisation, I dunno. I didn't, I've never done that before. You know what I mean? And then to try to figure it out, you know, cause I'm the kind of guy that's like, what's the rules. Give me the rules and then I'll figure it out. If I get the rules, I can do it. But like, you know, there's no, what are the rules? You know, there's, there's a teacher looking at me saying, yeah, you're on focus. You're not on focus. Okay, cool.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:51:01):
Oh, that's right. They actually use that language. He re he used that language, right. 100% focused, not on focus. It's all coming back to me. And I remember being like, it was sort of this like nebulous, like what does that even mean? But, but he knew apparently he protect if he already,
Larry Bates (00:51:19):
Well, here's the thing. I know what it means now. I think. But at the time I, I was just like, I was just, I was just clueless. I was, I mean, that was really clueless and it's, that's disarming. And especially when, I mean, I was also like, I was on academic scholarship at DePaul too. So I had to keep a particular GPA, which is also kind of frustrating when you, it's not like you're just giving me, you know what I'm saying? Like I, how much am I really in control of the grade? You're giving me when I'm being evaluated.
Gina Pulice (00:51:56):
Yeah. So we talked about this a lot. It was so subjective at the end of the day, it was whether or not you were pleasing to your particular teacher at that particular time. And for, for us, this is not like, this is the case for you. For us. It ended up meaning that we just got really good at figuring out how to please these particular teachers that may or may not have been something that helped us get better at acting. Do you know what I'm saying?
Larry Bates (00:52:20):
Yeah. Well, well, well, well w w I, I think that's, I think that's a part of it to be, I mean, I honestly think that's a part of it, uh, a hundred percent. I mean, I D I mean, I did that in, and I did that in high school. I mean, I, that was, I remember learning that real quick. If the teacher, if the teacher likes you, she's not going to flunk you charming. Oh my God. I was pretty much that I, I would, Oh, listen, I, I would, hi. How you doing, miss? How are you, how was your day? I mean, I would, I would be that student that would bring, uh, some apples if I needed to. And listen, listen, I'll tell you though. There's been times where I've taken a test and a messed up or something. And like the teacher has pulled me aside privately and say, Hey, I'm gonna let you do this again.
Gina Pulice (00:53:08):
Yeah. So it's worked out very well for you. Oh,
Larry Bates (00:53:12):
Oh 100%. One crazy story. I was going to say something. Yeah.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:53:18):
I was just gonna say, um, favorite shows while you were there, that you did any failed that I did Or that I saw.
Larry Bates (00:53:31):
Our man, our second year, our second year, there was a series of shows that even still to this day, I, I it's, it's like been my best like theater experience. Not only being a part of stuff, but also just watching my, my classmates. And I want to believe, I think we, it was like this, there was like, we did Antigony. I think we did. Um, I wasn't in, and I'm just, I sure we did. Uh, I want to say it was, um, a diary of Anne Frank. We, we were in raising in the sun, um, would fill us with when we had like this, you know, crazy multi-device cast. Uh, uh, I, I played Walter in a third act and mama in the second act to Dave [inaudible] Walter. Second to the Dave Dastmalchian's, Walter in the second act. Um, t.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:54:38):
Phyllis was going for it, man. !
Larry Bates (00:54:40):
A man. Yeah. Uh, and then I want to say the other one was dark at the top of the stairs. I could be wrong. And I think Trudy might've directed it if I remember, but I remember that that year, just like just, I was just like, I, I am 100% in the right place. This is what I want to be consumed with for the rest of my life. I was just so inspired by, by the work we were doing and just seeing, just seeing what all, what, how just all my classmates, just like, I don't know. It just, it was just, it was just the most, it was, it was mad. It was magical to use it. I don't know to use it better.
Gina Pulice (00:55:25):
I love that. I love hearing about people's experience of feeling like just the mat, the magic gold nature of theater, which had always is it's even when you're doing something that you don't like, you don't like the play, you don't like your experience. There's always a moment, at least once on stage where you think, Oh yeah, this is legitimately magic right here.
Larry Bates (00:55:46):
And you know, and you know, I, uh, you know, saying like it wasn't until I was a high school that I started doing these tournaments and stuff, but I, but when I think about it now I've been an actor my whole life, and it's, I've always been drawn to it. Cause I can even remember being like I would do plays for, for church and for school. And I would always be picked to do it. And I was always really quick at learning the lines and doing it, but I never like thought of it as, Oh, this is a, this is something you can do. But I can remember being in elementary school and, uh, East Leesville elementary, uh, in Louisiana and the high school students came or we would, they would take us to the high school auditorium and we'd watch a play that the high schoolers were doing. And I remember, I think it was a Latin and I would love to go see this now having been in theater for as long as I've been here, because I bet you, it was probably just like, I mean, it probably wasn't the best production, but I was, I was mesmerized. I was just sitting there with my eyes wide mouth agape, just like this is. And I remember every year, just like, are we going to go back? Are we going to go back and see that again? Or are we going to go? I remember it was just so taken by it. I'm just like, Oh my God, I love this so much.
Gina Pulice (00:56:57):
Did you do kid shows at the theater school?
Larry Bates (00:57:02):
Oh, I did the kid show of all kids shows at the theater school. You'll understand. I did Peter pan. Peter pan was the one they did where they combined the showcase and the Playworks. And we did like, we did like this insane run where we, it was like longer than normal kid shows. Plus we did evening shows. It was, it was in sanitary.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:57:26):
Who did you play?
Larry Bates (00:57:31):
I mean, I was, I was, I was one of the, so, so Susan Lee's concept was we were all like, it took place in the city of Chicago. So, uh, so the lost boys were these preppy preppy kids, preppy like prep, school kids, the pirates where it's like, you know, this ragtag gang of folks. And we were this, uh, the Indians were this hip hop.
Gina Pulice (00:58:03):
Shana told us.
Larry Bates (00:58:05):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Cause if you were in that show, if you're in there, you remember it, but no. And um, so yeah, my, my character's name was Snickers
Gina Pulice (00:58:16):
Cause you're all named after candy. Shane that's all this not yet.
Larry Bates (00:58:18):
We were all named after candy. I wrote a skateboard across the stage when they, when I was, when I was introduced and then I jumped out and every now and then I'd say under what the wigwam of glug law. And that was,
Gina Pulice (00:58:33):
Yeah, we were talking about how, uh, hip hop Indians was, is probably not a choice that looks so great in the rear view. 20 years later. It's a little off,
Larry Bates (00:58:47):
Maybe not, maybe, maybe
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:58:51):
You were the lead in six degrees, right? I was, I was direct to that. What was that experience? I saw that you were very good.
Larry Bates (00:59:00):
Thank, thank you. Thank you. And it was, it was, it was a great experience. It was, it was, it was weird cause I was precast in it, which was a, a weird thing, you know, you're just like, which I didn't ask to be. I just, I just show up one day and I was like, Larry Bates is precast is Paul in six degrees of separation. So it was just a thing around school that I had to deal with for a little bit. But, um, but here's the also, I'll tell you, this was a good learning experience too. And again, I just find myself fortunate to be on this end because I was pre-cast. This is crazy. You might think this is crazy. You might think this is crazy. I got to S I got to sit in on the audition.
Gina Pulice (00:59:39):
Wow. That is crazy. I want to hear everything.
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (00:59:43):
Well, why didn't you cast me as the main lady?
Larry Bates (00:59:46):
Well, I didn't, he would, he would ask me, he would ask my opinion, but I don't think he was really listening to my opinion. And part of the reason why I was in there was, I mean, he might've been listened to my opinion, but I'm just saying, uh, part, I think part of the reason I was in there, cause sometimes he'd throw me up there and go, okay, Larry, go up there. So sometimes he would put me up there to work with someone to, um, but I will. It was, I, again, I think they should find a way to let actors do that in theater school, because it is, it is, uh, eye-opening um, experience as far as auditioning and that process, which, you know, for sometimes actors that's, I mean, not just sometimes I, you know, I, I still get, you know, a little bit of anxiety for auditions and stuff, but like the amount of times that I've been able to be on the other side and watch it, it just gives you a completely different perspective of it. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, and I, and I think there's a level of power that, um, I think there's a level of, of yeah. A power that is bestowed on the actor who who's able to have that experience because you look at it, you just look at it from a different perspective. Like there's nothing. Why am I nervous? Like everybody here wants you to be, I mean, you just really, you just really see it. You just really see it differently. And I, you know, I recently did it, um, on, um, on a play, a professional play out here. I was cast, uh, in couture Katori halls, uh, the mountain top where I was playing Martin Luther King and I was cast first. So I got to sit in on the, um, they wanted me to come in on the audition process and, and work with the ladies that came in. It's a two hander, it's a two person play and it's, and again, I still find, I still find it very invaluable because you can you realize that there's tons of reasons why you don't get picked that have, that have nothing to do with your, with your potential or your, your talent or any of that. I mean, literally I, when I did this thing out here, I'm seeing, I mean, there are women who are coming in here that are super prepared who were killing it. I mean, killing it. I'm like, this is there, there are talented, there are talented people here. And then, but the, the person who walked in who got it, it's, I don't know how to explain this. And you, you hear this, you know, in theater school and I kinda hate this kind of stuff because it gets actors and people in their heads. And I think that's not where you should be. But like we just knew, like she walked in, she started, it was like, Oh, that's, that's her. You just, you just knew it. So, and I hate, I, like I said, I hate that kind of stuff, because then you have actors trying to figure out how to, how to be that person. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's that because there were tons of super duper talented women that audition. But anyway, it's just always a nice thing as an actor, because to me, it frees me up a little bit to be like, I, I mean, I, I guess where my focus isn't so much on booking the job as much as I'm just going to go in here and play this scene the way I think the scene should be played. And if you cast me great, if you don't.
Gina Pulice (01:02:54):
Yeah, absolutely. It's such a trap to think you can always contort yourself into being the exact right person for a role, because really the reason that you got, if it's this case of a film or TV, where you got, where you got the audition at all is because you already met certain parameters that were needed for this role. And, and so, so you, you are supposed to be bringing yourself, but I, from my own experience, I can say I had no idea about that. I thought that my job was to always just be somebody else. And it wasn't until the first time I directed a play and I had auditions that I had the experience that you're describing, and yes, they should make people do that in theater school, they should have a direct thing.
Larry Bates (01:03:33):
Yeah, it was great. And because it's also better than, you know, and I'm not trying to go just to harp so much on like that exit class. Cause it's not just in that class, but you know, you, you know, everybody's always trying to give actors advice. Oh, and you don't want to do this and Ooh, you don't want to do that. You know, enough, look enough with all that stuff. Like it's not, I mean, look, it's hard. It's a hard business because it's a hard business, you know what I mean? But be your best self going in there and be fine with what happens, that's it, you know? Absolutely. It just makes it, I just get, I just get annoyed with all of the, because I can remember her going. Yeah. You want to be sure to do this because if not, they may cut the camera off on you. So now I'm like, I don't want them to cut the camera off. So now I'm obsessed. Now I'm obsessed with that, you know, or, or you get a scene and they go, well, in this, they gave you these two scenes. Cause in this scene, they want to see that you do this. And over here they want to see something. I ain't got time to be thinking all that, man, let me just read the same. How do I see the scene going? And then if they like me, they like me. If they don't, if they don't pick kick rocks, you know, come on, man.
Gina Pulice (01:04:41):
That that's something that we, we talked about a lot is the, the danger of teachers teaching something that they probably couldn't quite make a career for themselves because then it becomes about all of their insecurities about the ways in which they failed projected onto their students. And it does put everybody in a little bit of a flip out cage mentally. And it's, it's not a good, not a great way.
Larry Bates (01:05:04):
No, I agree. And I, and I actually think that was what was going on with, and again, with that particular yeah, exactly. Because I, and I think it was manifesting itself in other ways, or like trying to, you know, you, whatever her insecurities were or whatever, but, um, but yeah, no, I completely, I completely agree with you.
Gina Pulice (01:05:22):
So how did you find the whole showcase experience? Uh, I mean,
Larry Bates (01:05:28):
Nerve wracking crazy, you know, um, um, yeah, it, you know, it's, it's interesting to think about it in hindsight as opposed to, to being in it, but it's, it's so crazy. That can totally it's God, I mean, school was a while ago, but I can, I just, I can totally put myself back in that situation. I mean, it was, I mean, it was exciting because we were graduating and, and uh, for, for me, I mean, like I got to go to New York. That's cool. I've never, I'd never been to New York, California, so there's, there's, there's kind of something cool about the travel of it all, you know,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:06:11):
Larry, what did you do for showcase what monologue?
Larry Bates (01:06:14):
I did? Uh, I did, um, Toledo from my Rainey's black bottom by monologue steel. That monologue still, sir. Well, I haven't used it in a little while, but it served me a lot out here too. But, but yeah, but, but I was just saying it was, it was a little, it was a little nerve wracking, but you know, it was, it was great. It was great to do the travel and stuff. And, and I, I did, I did well in Chicago. I did well in LA um, New York. I did. Okay. I mean, I, I, I had some connections over there, but I was not feeling New York at all. So I was just, just too crazy for me, just too crazy. Um, and I'm already a little add, so it was just, I just feel like I'm like going crazy out there. Um, so, so yeah, and, and I, I, I stayed in Chicago initially because that's what they told you to do. Even though I had like really great contacts in LA and when I got off the plane, I was like, Oh, I want to move here. This is where I want to be. But I was like, Oh, you're supposed to stay in Chicago. Cause that's what they say to do. Stay here too. You can. And I met a manager in LA who would, would, um, get me auditions for my Chicago agents to put me on tape for. And I got close to, I want to say it was the West wing, I think, uh, when they were, uh, the Charlie care, I think his name was Charlie, Charlie character. And, um, yeah, he was like, you need to be out in LA man. Cause they, they wanted, the producers wanted to see me, but I was like, I can't fly out there tomorrow just for an audition. I can't do that. You know, it's like, what is why you need to be here? And I was like, well, why am I in Chicago waiting when I got people in LA? So I just went to LA and
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:08:00):
Why did they tell us it's Chicago? Why
Larry Bates (01:08:05):
No, it's part of this whole fear mongering thing they do at the end of school. Where do you want to be? Do you want to go to New York where you want to be in Chicago? Well, you don't want to go too early because you want to . Shut up. Like what have you, what did you want to move back to your hometown and started theater there? Like who cares? Yeah,
Gina Pulice (01:08:22):
I think they probably also were keen to have a bunch of graduates doing well in Chicago theater. I mean, that, that was probably a self-serving thing on their part.
Larry Bates (01:08:34):
Yeah. That does make sense. And that's a little annoying because I don't need you to be serving yourselves, help serve the students. Do you know what I mean?
Gina Pulice (01:08:42):
So have you stayed in touch with like what's all the changes that have happened at the theater school since you've left
Larry Bates (01:08:50):
A little bit, a little bit. I mean, I'll periodically, um, I mean I was in Chicago, like I was there at the Goodman doing a show a couple of years ago when I went to the new, um, the new building and my Lord it's it's, it's, it's fricking gorgeous. Um, and, uh, my buddy, uh, Bobby Z who graduated with me, teaches there now. So I'm always, always gets a chance to always, I always get a chance to talk to him and kinda, you know, I mean, I, I I'm, I'm proud of where I went to school, you know what I mean? Like, um, so I, I, I love like keeping up on what's what's going on over there. What are you working on now? Uh, I'm not doing it. I mean, I'm, I'm about to workshop, uh, a play for South coast, uh, in like a week or two. I just got done doing something at the Kirk Douglas. And before that I did, um, I, one of the first, uh, filmed stage productions under the whole COVID guidelines down at, um, San Diego rep, uh, this play called JQ a by Aaron Posner, which is pretty good
Gina Pulice (01:09:55):
Is he the one who wrote Stupid Fucking bird?
Larry Bates (01:09:58):
Yes. Yes he is. Yes. I think that is his play. Yeah.
Gina Pulice (01:10:01):
Was that, was that a good play, Jake JQL
Larry Bates (01:10:05):
Yeah, the play, the play is, the play is, is, is, is pretty fantastic. I mean, Ella just elevated language. I played there's, there's a, there's a four actor. There's four actors. We all play John Quincy Adams at one point or another. Um, but I played JQ way, Andrew Jackson and, um, Frederick Douglas. So, uh, and it's, I mean, it's just like each scene as a two hander. Um, it's, it's, it's a good play. It, it, it was it's, it's a, it's a challenging play just because it's, I mean, it's so it's so much to it and, uh, very language, uh, driven, like, you know, so it's just so much dialogue, so it's just a lot to, to kind of, to digest and make your own, but it was also just, you know, we were doing it under COVID guidelines, which is in, which is, which is in, which was insane. And especially for a play. And we were in, you know, in person rehearsing with masks on keeping distancing. It was just a lot going on. And I wouldn't say that so much the problem, But, you know, you're all you are on heightened alert because you, you know, you don't want to catch COVID. So it's like, you know, you have these protocols in place and then like, how well are they following the protocols? Like, who was that random person that just walked in here? Why don't they have, you know, stuff like that, you know, which, which is just adds a level of, uh, at least for me adds a level of stress.
Gina Pulice (01:11:35):
Yeah. In general, do you prefer working on theater or film or TV? Do you have a preference?
Larry Bates (01:11:44):
Um, I mean, I prefer to money from TV and film a hundred percent. I mean, it's just, it's just lovely. I love doing, I love doing plays. I love doing plays because to me, what I love most about, uh, theater is, is the process and the relationships. Like, I just love like that a group of people get together and for a desired amount of time, we just work on something, you know? And what's great. What I love about it is even if we don't see each, even if we don't talk all the time, cause it's not like we all have to become best friends, but when we do see each other, it's like, I mean, it's like, Hey, we have this, like, we have this like wonderful shared life experience. And it's, I mean, it really is pretty full too because you're, you're investigating life and what you're doing. So I just kind of that's, that's what I love. And I just, you know, TV, you go on your shoot something and you see somebody, they may not even remember you, you know what I'm saying? And I, I kinda liked the connections and I liked the human contact. I mean, that's, that's the reason why I love to do it. I love the relationships that I make. I love that even more than, than like, you know, I mean, it's nice when you do something and people say, Hey, good job. And they remember your work. So that, that stuff is appreciated. But I just, I just love the people that I've met and the experiences that we've had. And I, I mean that sincerely, I'm not, I mean, it really sucks.
Gina Pulice (01:13:18):
I think you it's. Uh, so we talked to Jess Hannah who lives in LA, who does all theater. I don't think she does anything, but yeah, but I haven't, we haven't really talked to too many people who kind of quickly went out to LA and have done film and television, but have continued to do both. Most people tend to go one way or the other.
Larry Bates (01:13:39):
Yeah. I, I feel very, I feel very fortunate. I mean, it's, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I'm fortunate enough to, to, to, to, um, to get, to do some stuff down at South coast, South coast repertory down in Costa Mesa. And I just, I just would say yes, I would just say yes to everything. I mean, it's a, it's a bit of a hike down there. I can remember. I think my first gig down there, it was like a reading. They were like, can you come and do this reading? It was like four day reading. Maybe it was like, maybe pay me like 400 bucks. I didn't have a car when I moved out to LA I didn't have a car either. Um, and I remember renting a car, which I think costs me $400 for the car. You know what I mean? Just to drive down there to make $400, but, you know, I just would do whatever I can it's so, so I will say it was nice to find a nice little home there and, and what's great is there's a lot of, um, You know, I mean, a lot of actors, a lot of new playwrights and directors kinda kinda come through there and, you know, I've, I've worked there pretty consistently, um, for, for the last like 20 years, you know what I mean? I've done a number of shows down there and what's nice now I would say, and I mean, knock on some wood that it continues is I've made enough relationships. There's enough people who were fans of my work there that like, you know, these people move on to other places, so I'll get a call going, Hey, uh, such and such at, uh, you know, Arizona theater company is interested in if you're interested in this or, um, you know, like, um, you know, I think the Goodman kinda worked that way and, and I've been able to do shows at Denver center, um, Cincinnati Playhouse, actually, that was where I got my equity card, but that was, that was, that was different than South coast, but steel. Um, so yeah, I feel, I feel, I feel, I feel fortunate. So it's been, it's been nice and opportunities for theater, um, continue to come up and, and also with the theaters in LA, like, um, and Taz company, you know, it's just, it just, it just kind of opens you up to that world. And I feel like when you really get in that, when you really get in that world, that kind of, you know, a lot of people say, LA doesn't have a theater scene and it really, really does. It really does. It's not to say that there's not, you know, you know, people putting up plays just to showcase themselves, but there is a, there is a theater scene here, and what's also great about that as a lot of the people that do that work in TV and film, and then that kind of leads to other
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:16:16):
Work and stuff. Do you ever want to direct or do you direct for theater?
Larry Bates (01:16:23):
Um, I have not. I mean, I, I don't, I don't know yet. I was thinking about, I was thinking about this the other day because, Um, Because I was working on something and I just had a lot of time of sitting there and watching and, and, um, people are doing stuff and I'm having ideas and stuff, but I, and I think, I don't think so. And here's why I say that because I, what I want to do was get up and do it not like it's, it's not fulfilling to me to go, Hey, cause I found myself going, Oh no, I feel like I would just continually get up and go here. This, this is what, this is what you should, you know, and that's a hard thing to ever come. Yay. Yeah. So I'm an actor. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, uh, I have like aspirations with that and I'm constantly working on projects and stuff like that. And in selling shows and stuff like that. So
Gina Pulice (01:17:19):
It's hard to get your foot in the door writing, isn't it,
Larry Bates (01:17:23):
It it's, it's hard. So I'm not, so let me, let me, let me, let me say this. I haven't, as far as writing goes, So, so, okay. So I've had some success out here. Like I did sell a show, I sold a show, but it was more unscripted stuff. So that was one of the things I did when I first moved out here because you know, when acting was slow, it was just coming up with concepts. And I had an uncle out here who was like crazy TV guy. And he's like, man, all of these ideas are or write them down, man. These are all shows. So I have like a production company. We've got some hooks in kind of the unscripted world. So I've sold several of those, those projects and, um, and scripted. Sure. I'm kinda moving toward that, that now. And yes, it is, it is difficult. It is difficult. It is difficult to get, get stuff in the right people's hands and to, to, to get things moving and so forth as well. But I mean, it's not my, I don't, it's, it's hard for me to say how difficult it is because I'm, it's not my number one goal. And I just, I, you know, I respect people who put the time and energy and that's their discipline, you know what I mean? To make it seem like, Oh yeah, it's hard. And I've, I've, you know, I like, I come up with concepts, we, you know, put together a nice little look book and be like, who can we shoot this to? You know what I mean? You know, my, my wife's a writer and I know I see the amount of time and energy that she puts into it. So I'm not, I'm not at that level at all. I will say that. Do I add that those aspirations? Yes. But my problem is I started working on a project and then some kind of acting project comes up. And then my, um, my focus is just brutal.
Speaker 7 (01:18:58):
You're an actor. You mean like that's, you're, you're an actor. I think it's fantastic that you are. Yeah. You're the only person we've talked to that has tons of theater credits and, uh, film, TV credits post-graduation and um, I know you said like, you know, you said yes to everything, but like if, if people want to do both, what would you say? Just say yes to everything in LA, like cook up with people. How do people do that?
Larry Bates (01:19:29):
Yeah. Well, I would say, Yeah, I would say yes to, I would say yes to the degree, but it just, it depends on where I at first, I just think you need to, I want to be careful cause I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, I, I respect everybody's hustle out here and I'm talking about actual theater companies and stuff, but I think there are, in my opinion, you learn out here, there are particular theater companies in LA that are worthwhile, that are worth your time, in my opinion. So find out what those, what those companies are because the people that work at those companies work everywhere. They work at taper Geffin, uh, South coast, you know what I mean? They work, they work at the big Apple. They work at the big equity houses. If that's what you're into. Cause some people, you know, you, you can, you can do theater, not at those big equity houses, but for me, I want to, I want to do work at those big equity houses, make some money, you know what I'm saying? Um, so what I would say is find out the theaters that are worthwhile because I feel like there are some out here that just really just exploit actors, their, their work for their own stuff. And no one's really interested in seeing you, you know, do more, but, but particularly what's, what's important is the relationships you make at those theater companies. Because I th I just having worked so much throughout it, there's so much crossover and, and, and, and that stuff also bleeds into TV and to film, you know what I mean? It's just, I think one of the, one of the challenges and the challenges in LA is, you know, there is the theater community here, but like the game in town is TV and film. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's, it's just hard. It's just hard because you know, if TV and film comes knocking, you know, you're not going to, you know, you got to go answer that. You gotta go answer the door. So it's just balancing that and finding, finding the right places where they really do care about the craft. And there are, there are them, I mean, impasse, a Dina, um, you know, as it did play out as Boston court, and if any place I'm leaving, I was just, cause I'm leaving now. It's not like, it's not that it's not, it's not there. Just, I can't name them all. But like, there's a lot of places where like, there are, you know, I feel like places that are, are, are worth your while. I mean, Pasadena Playhouse is an equity house. So that, um, that would be, yeah,
Jen Bosworth-Ramirez (01:21:59):
You're a man that knows how to keep relationships. That's right. That's right.
Gina Pulice (01:22:06):
Larry, this has been fantastic. Thank you.
Gina Pulice (01:22:15):
I survived theater school is an Undeniable, Ink. production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina Pulice are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Pulice. Follow us on Instagram at undeniablewriters or on Twitter at undeniablewrit1 that's undeniable, "write" without the e, one. Thanks!
Intro: Gina and Jen talk about what it means to be home, zero ICU bed availability in Los Angeles, clarifying the aim of this podcast, what it means to survive, surviving one's desire to be famous, and fame adjacency.
Let Me Run This By You: Hope in a Jar, putting too much stock in beauty products, wtf is a serum?, Noxzema, multi-level marketing schemes, the Kylie Jenner go fund me campaign (in which Gina was relieved to later learn it was not the conspiracy she thought it was), laying down your life at Water Tower Place, the activism of K-Pop Stans, tweens playing dress-up on IG video chat, finding unity and feeling seen via selfie filters, drinking Kleenex, and Veterinarian's Day.
Interview: We talk to Amie Farrell about Into the Woods, The Journey of the Fifth Horse, Joe Slowik, Snow White and Rose Red, Foy Flying, Kansas City children's theatre, Interlochen, singing Maybe from Annie, rugby warmups, being a healthy person as an actor, the implicit wish for actors to be "dark and twisty", getting people to cry in voice class, David Fincher, Mank, acting technique, a stellar scene from Superman II, storytelling, and Variant Artists.
We didn't talk Puss in Boots, , The Trojan Women, or the rest of Amie's EXTENSIVE credits!
This episode was recorded on Election Day, 2020
Intro: Gina bastardizes a beautiful e.e. cummings poem
Let Me Run This By You: Lack of acceptance, Japanese death philosophy, Unsolved Mysteries, tsunamis, personal responsibility, aggressively fearful flag waving, wearing your fear like a cloak of armor, more on NXVIM, channeling a lil' psychopathy, emotional felonies.
Interview: We talk to Tait Smith! Feldenkrais, feeling in over your head at TTS, Le Mars Iowa the Ice Cream Capital of the World, high school sweethearts, seeing Morgan Freeman and Q-Tip at the Michigan Avenue Bennigans, Brighton Beach Memoirs, crying in your dorm room, expanding your mind in college, smoking and wearing fedoras and pagers, the appearance of confidence, expectations of the college experience (football games and cutting class) as compared to the realities of conservatory life (classes all day and rehearsals or performances at night), viewing fellow alums as war buddies, clicking in Improv class, the fabled Apartment 3, waiting for your re-acceptance letter in the summer, work study, Lincoln Park Foods, Ed Debevic's, Lollapalooza 1994, the unreleased film "Stricken" starring Tait, Jamie Kennedy, Sean Gunn, and Judy Greer. Auditioning sucks. Finding a stage wherever you are and redefining performance and storytelling, life lessons from TTS, differing philosophies about rehearsal, wild improv moments with Peyton Myrick, the subjective nature of art and the imposed judgment of it that happens in drama school, Epsom Downs, the politics of the cut system, big laughs and good times with Alex Skuby, artists looking for acceptance and validation, Charlie's Ale House in Chicago, having Thai food for the first time with Eric Slater leading the way, paying hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to do yoga and Movement to Music, making enough money to say thanks to Mom and Dad, Antigone, the Adding Machine, Detective Story with Lou Contey, Merchant of Venice, Sisterly Feelings, and LSD.
Intro: Death Valley, camping, San Pedro, LSD, rageaholics, serial killers
Let Me Run This By You: the perils of not letting you be you, codependency is like an MLM because there is no end user
Interview: We talk to Jen Kober, who says she was "NOT a happy camper" while at TTS. Getting cut, knowing yourself, being among the first fat girls accepted into the program, being taken "back to neutral", comedy, terrible casting, The Birds, Rob Chambers, the value of knowing yourself, TTS then vs now, Columbia College, Second City, Improv Olympic, The Purge, Marty deMaat, Clinton v. Bush, Betsy Hamilton, Sinbad, Phyllis Griffin, San Francisco Comedy Competition, and Vidzu.
Intro: Meet Snoball.
Let Me Run This By You: clothes from Walgreens, coffins from Costco, the infernal unbreathabililty of polyester, shopping at Forever 21 vs Chico's vs Flax vs Eileen Fisher, the promise of the premise with Anthropologie, Mod
Interview: We talk to Eric Slater - talks the life of a struggling actor, Jon Berry and Shake Your Groove Thing, Around the Coyote, (side note: Eric says the first show he did after college was one thing, but it was actually The Big Funk with JABOA Theatre), almost becoming a professional soccer player instead of an actor, Fifth of July, North Carolina, being intimidated by New York City, Lancelot Gobbo's speech from Merchant of Venice, going to drama school in a fugue state, acting as an "unteachable art", whether or not everyone got a warning (Gina was wrong on this - not everyone was warned), Misalliance, Merrily We Roll Along, The Glory of Living, Androcles and the Lion, The Visit, being confrontational, the cut system, counting tiles as an acting exercise, resilience, what he would say to his daughter if she told him she wanted to go to theatre school, and Fargo.
We didn't get a chance to discuss Bridge to Terabithia or JABOA. Next time!
Let Me Run This By You: COVID, NXVIM, we are all in a cult because everything is a cult.
Interview: Jen and Gina unpack their own memories of and experience with The Theatre School.
Intro: Jen tells us about her Disney audition and a conversation about "getting discovered" myths ensues.
Let Me Run This By You: We talk home decor and what informs a person's personal style. Do you even know what your style is? When did you learn? Then we talk about decorating for the holidays and the potentially dangerous resentment trap that often comes along with it. Should we all just get Prince-themed Christmas decorations? Or what about a fully Anthropologie/Mexican Street Fair/Boho/Bruja vibe? Next: kids discovering the truth about Santa Claus, lazy parenting, and the pressures of creating a perfect childhood for your kids. Then Jen tells Gina a story she's never heard before about ruining an important surprise for a friend. Keeping a surprise is so much pressure! P.S. who gets married in a hot air balloon?
Interview: We talk to Shayna Ferm of The Pump and Dump show, Band of Mothers podcast, and Parentally Incorrect fame about getting into theatre school, audition competition power moves, Boy Gets Girl at the Goodman, Early Edition, Our Town, regrets about learning how to act as a teenager, musical theatre, Carnegie Mellon ballet auditions, Peter Pan, musicals at The Theatre School (wherein Gina erroneously states that TTS did musicals every year - it was actually every other year) The Grapes of Wrath, Michael Maggio, the importance of having a champion, sketch comedy at Invite Them Up, creating your own artistic opportunities, and the magic of The Theatre School relationships.
Opening: Jen and Gina discuss microphone woes, professional gamers, and taking pictures of the television.
Let Me Run This By You: Dolly Parton documentary, an idea for a new take on 9 to 5, and comforting watching in a pandemic.
Interview: Jeffrey Brown talks getting into The Theatre School, growing up in an elite musical family, inappropriate audition pieces, the pelvic clock, drumming, discipline, Ric Murphy, the legendary production of Frank Galati's The Grapes of Wrath at Steppenwolf in Chicago, learning acting anew with each project, True Blood, Henry Danger, playing at the Bop Shop, Blue Man Group, trusting yourself as an actor, fearing "getting cut" at theatre school, Don Ilko, and Camp Winnarainbow. We did not get a chance to discuss his film, Vicarious, or his inimitable turn on Doc McStuffins (plus so, so much more), so hopefully we'll have him back!
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Jeff Brown: (00:10)
And I'm Gina, Pulice.
Jeff Brown: (00:11)
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
Jeff Brown: (00:15)
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
Jeff Brown: (00:20)
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
Jeff Brown: (00:38)
Real nook, like window. Cause not. So my chair is high now.
Jeff Brown: (00:45)
Okay. Then we both have a new thing. So, uh, I'm having, I've been having microphone problems and I went online yesterday to find, I tried to get my microphone fixed. Um, I tried to, I'd watched YouTube videos about how to fix it. I figured out what was wrong with it. And when I was watching the video about the guy who fixed it during the video, he, he, he he's using a, um, thought solder, soldering iron. And he, he just like completely melts the motherboard. Okay. So you don't know how to do this either.
Jeff Brown: (01:24)
Brilliant though. That's kind of brilliant.
Jeff Brown: (01:26)
So I go to best buy.
Jeff Brown: (01:29)
Oh no. I went there to try and fix my printer. Go ahead.
Jeff Brown: (01:33)
They had, you know, they're these microphones all sold out because everybody and their mother has started test last month. So, so the one that was left is world of Warcraft.
Jeff Brown: (01:48)
Oh my God. I love it.
Jeff Brown: (01:51)
Get gaming microphone. I love it. Why do you need to make her from here gamer? I don't know what. Yes. I don't see. This is you have to run. I don't know, dude. I don't know if you want to be anywhere in this life as a game, right? You better have good quality headphones, good quality microphone. Because you might be one of the people who gets a serious living. She's just recording yourself, playing video games and having a YouTube channel. Right. That other sit and watch you play a video game. It is the single strangest thing about this generation. It's like the only thing that I, that I don't go, Oh, I get that, you know?
Jeff Brown: (02:43)
Okay. So I'm trying to like equate it to anything that we, I don't think there is
Jeff Brown: (02:49)
The closest I could come to it and it's really not close at all. Like I just remember my mom looking at me when I was, when I would be taping radio. Oh, Oh,
Jeff Brown: (03:03)
Oh, that is yes. Yes. I taped her and I also okay. Okay. That we're getting somewhere now. We're getting somewhere. You know what I did took pictures of the television with my Kodak, Kodak. This camera when Michael Jackson was on that's similar. So cute. I took my disc, my disc Kodak, disc man, this maker, whatever. And just whatever and Kodak disc and that I got for Christmas and I wouldn't, my Michael Jackson was on at the, Grammy's doing his moonwalk. I was taking pictures. The pictures I still have. I found, I think I found one, one. You it's,
Jeff Brown: (03:39)
You can barely tell why,
Jeff Brown: (03:42)
But that's what I did over and over. And I used all my film taking pictures of the telephone.
Speaker 4: (04:00)
Hey, Let Me Run This By You
Jeff Brown: (04:03)
Nah, I watched the Dolly Parton documentary.
Jeff Brown: (04:06)
Okay. That's on my list. It's
Jeff Brown: (04:08)
So good. She's crazy. But it's so good. I mean, she's bonkers. So, but the night, my nine to five idea, and I know like there's probably a million apps you sent me. I know, but I'm thinking of a television series nine to five, but it's called nine to 25 and it's they actually kill the guy. They killed their boss. Um, so, so yeah, like a true crime twist. So it's, it's a bunch of women and they kill their boss and then they have to spend the rest of the series trying to cover it up. And like, I just, I was like,
Jeff Brown: (04:41)
What a great title. I love that.
Jeff Brown: (04:46)
So anyway, I just thought of you because I was like, Oh my God, there hasn't been, there's probably a million remakes that have been optioned, but like I haven't seen that workplace comedy in television.
Jeff Brown: (05:00)
Well, okay. And actually you're reminding me of something. Um, they remake every single superhero movie, like 1000 times over. We, there's never a female equivalent for that. There's no like female superhero or just female story that we keep seeing over and over again. Meanwhile, not only the, um, the superheroes, but like also just these action franchises that they just, it's just the same thing over and over again. So why not write a nine to 25? That's fantastic.
Speaker 4: (05:39)
Okay.
Jeff Brown: (05:39)
Run by. You can run by your, let me run you by it say,
Jeff Brown: (05:44)
Well, I don't actually have that great of a one, but I'll, I'm going to go forward with one that I have anyway, I hang on. I think I've read it down. Oh, so like I'm I have just like, I just told you that I have Dolly Parton the documentary on my list. I have a long list of things that I want to watch books. I want to read TV shows and movies I want to watch. And when it comes time for me to consume my entertainment, I never watch one single thing. That's on my list. And instead I watch something that I have already seen. Oh,
Jeff Brown: (06:30)
Ooh. That's that's uh, that's really interesting.
Jeff Brown: (06:34)
So literally saying to myself, come on, Gina. You've been wanting to watch and there's no reason to, it's not like it's a, I have to read a book for school. It's not like I have to watch. I can even understand it. If it was my job to review films. And I was just so sick of having to watch. It's not even that it's literally just stuff that I think would be so good. People tell me it's so good. Oh, that's the worst. If you tell me something is good, I will set. I mean, I will watch the Dolly part thing, but like nine times out of 10, if somebody says you must, I'm like, okay, then that I'm definitely never going to watch it be just because you told me I shouldn't, it's so silly. It's a childish. I don't even understand what the impetus is.
Jeff Brown: (07:17)
No, I, I hear you. And I think there's two things go. I mean, there's many things going on, but one of them again, is that the, the, the latter issue, I think, is the joining issue, right? Is it someone, someone is really like, you've got to do this thing. I think from knowing you there's a part of you. That's like, no, I don't. And I won't, uh, but not blatantly, you know, like you're not an, so you're not going to be like, no, I want to their face, but maybe in your buried mind, you're like, well, I just, I'm not gonna do what you tell me. So maybe there's that going on. But then the first part about why you don't want the list of things, it's like, maybe those things don't, you, you, you clearly need comfort. Like we all do. So you're going to things that bring you comfort. And I say, it's better to rewatch, whatever it is you rewatch versus, you know, smoking crack cocaine over again. But what kind of stuff do you rewatch? Like what, is there a theme?
Jeff Brown: (08:21)
Yeah, I'm on probably my third complete watching of the office. I have. This is and, and okay. Yeah. It's an amazing show. It's probably one of the top five comedy shows it's ever been. But like, I know it, I I've seen it. I know every episode, like I've I think, I think maybe it feels like so, so I do occasionally watch something new. I watched, I may destroy you. And it was all amazing and inspiring, but that's a good example. I mean, that's a hard show to watch in some ways, because it's just like what it says in the title. It really might destroy you so I can understand that kind of thing. But I'm talking about like silly things that are things that people say like, Oh, you got to watch it. It's so hilarious. I it's. And half the time when I do cause Aaron isn't like, he always wants to see a new thing. So if I'm watching with him, but half the time when I'm into it, I'm like, Oh, this is great. Why didn't I want to watch this, but
Jeff Brown: (09:29)
Similar thing. Yeah, yeah. I have it with, um, yeah. Miles like miles. My husband will say, say, um, right. He has a list of Pulitzer prize, winning books, and he goes down the list and we'll read them. I that's never going to happen for me. I feel like I do what I want to do. And mostly what I want to do is watch weird videos of people getting surgery, you know, like that. I mean, I think we go at our base level, especially during a pandemic when our country is just gross in so many ways, we go to what is feels like we have control over because see, like, I need to stress to you that there's no control. I mean, it's, so it's a commitment and it is work. It is work to, to watch it and to read, you know, Pulitzer prize, winning novels about the Holocaust that's work.
Jeff Brown: (10:32)
Yeah. That's, it's, that's intense work and it's true. You know, I actually really do think it has a lot to do with where our country is. And I think it has to do with like the whole known versus the unknown thing. Everything is so unknown that in some ways I'd rather just watch something that I don't, that I don't have to do any work about. I, I it's so known the last time I was really going wild with consuming new stuff was when Obama was president. I, that those years I used to read a book like every week, every week I was constantly on a new book and, and, and it, and in a way I think it's probably because things were sort of status quo. It was, you know what I mean? Like everything was fine. More or less, not everything is never fine, but you know what I mean? Like for the most part, things were comparatively. I mean, and now what, and also, I don't like the fact that I start my, I think maybe it has something to do with the fact that I start my day by reading the news. So 30 minutes after I'm awake, I'm already like, this is bad. This is terrible. And then I do my work work during the day and my chore work. So by the time of the end of the day, I just, I want to be like, I wanna, I want to evaporate
Jeff Brown: (11:54)
My brain into something. That's just, yeah. I surprised to hear you. I think that, that makes perfect sense. And I, I think that for right now that, I mean, I think it's always okay, but for right now you stick with the office. I'm going to stick with, um, Dr. Pimple popper, Mr. Mr. Wilson's nose surgery.
Speaker 4: (12:17)
Oh, wait. Not, not a pimple, but it's the bit
Jeff Brown: (12:32)
Super exciting today. And I survived theater school. We have Jeffrey, Nicholas Brown, I a three names. Cause he's very, very important. Um, isn't he, he's just he's he's uh, when I think of like a Ray of sunshine, I think of, of Jeffrey Brown, I'm going to call him Jeff Brown. Uh, but he, I don't, you know, he goes by Jeffrey Brown, you know him from he's the dad and Henry danger, which just ended, uh, what else? Beans he's um,
Jeff Brown: (13:00)
he was a blue man for a really long time group. He's a, yep. He is one of the web series called Vicarious, that won awards. I believe he's a writer.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez: (13:13)
He said he's um, what else does he, do? You know what he does drums his arse off. He's a drummer. He's just, so he's a lovely Ray of sunshine that is funny and positive. And, um, he has a really interesting, I think, uh, upbringing story. Absolutely.
Jeff Brown: (13:31)
And by the way, he has always been a Ray of sunshine. Like he has always exuded that and that he's, I think he must have just been born that way. I think some people are just born like predator naturally positive. I think so too.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez: (13:46)
I think so, too. So we're so lucky to have him Jeffrey, Nicholas Brown
Jeff Brown: (13:58)
Theater school, and we are talking about the whole life cycle of the theater school thing, or like when you decide And did you want to, to go to theater school theater school that you picked how it looks in the rear view, how it met up with expectations, blah, blah, blah, right? Yeah. So yeah.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez: (14:20)
Have at it, tell us, tell us, I mean, I know I have the benefit of going to high school with you, but I also, but, but I want to know, like, when were you like yes. Actor for me,
Jeff Brown: (14:33)
you want to know? I was, I was yes, actor early, early on, which I think was detrimental to my work creatively as an actor personally.
Jeff Brown: (14:48)
Why?
Jeff Brown: (14:49)
Well, I decided, I mean, I being a kid And being like, everyone's like, you can be whatever you want when you grow up. And I was like, well, if I could be anything I want, why not be an actor? Like what what's, what could be more fun than that? That sounds perfect. So, um, my dad took me to a lot of plays, right? Like I was exposed. I was very fortunate to be exposed to theater at a very young age. I remember we would meet the actors at, at the, at the Goodman in Chicago. Like we would, we would go and you could, the actors would come out after the kid shows much. I think we did this at DePaul. Right. We, the actors would come out and you could meet them and get their autograph. And I think I had a birthday party at one of those shows. Like, I mean, I was dead set on being an actor from literally as far as I can remember, I cannot remember. I was like, I liked music, but I like acting. And then if you're, and then I was like, sorta like acting you're you're really there's music in acting. So you're kind of, you're kind of getting all everything if you're an actor. So I was just like, this is, this is my path. So from, from very early on. So.
Jeff Brown: (15:54)
did you, did you Pick it in part, I mean, cause your, your family is very musically elite and that was a big part of your life since birth I'm. Sure. So you don't seem like you're really that into classical music as a person. So maybe you - it sounded more fun to do acting.
Jeff Brown: (16:15)
I did. I grew up in a year, right? I grew up in a really classical, um, family. My brother is still to this day, a classical musician. And, uh, he, um, uh, my father taught classical music at DePaul and my mom was a music teacher and it was definitely a way of me rebelling and sort of being like, my path is going to be different. I am, this is because it was forced down my throat so much. You know, I remember my dad being like, Jeffery, you ha what, what opera do you want to see this year? And I'm like, I don't want it. I want to watch a Jackson five cartoon and call it a day. You don't want to be doing that because I remember coming to your house and just music, music, music all the time. My dad was teaching piano out of our house. I mean, it was just like, I don't know how many times I heard the entertainer. Like that was just the background of my childhood [inaudible] but so, um, to get back to your first question, the acting thing. Yeah. So I was dead set on doing acting, and I knew I was going to go to some sort of theater school. Now my father was a professor at DePaul. Right. I did not want to go to DePaul.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez: (17:37)
I remember this.
Jeff Brown: (17:38)
Of course not.
Jeff Brown: (17:39)
I was like, anything but that my dad would just be like, no, you're going to DePaul. It's one of the greatest acting schools in the country and it's free, which is now they were right. I was wrong. I did not see that at the moment I, within at NYU, I was like, I want to go to, and they're like, Jeffrey, do you realize if you go to NYU, you are going to come out with so much debt. And I was like, I don't, you know, you cannot understand what that means when you're 17. You have no, I D I know what that actually means. It's just weird. You're just convinced that you're going to be a movie star and the debt - that'll all get worked out. It's fine.
Jeff Brown: (18:23)
Yeah, for sure. So you did apply to a bunch of schools. Yeah.
Jeff Brown: (18:27)
I applied at four schools. I applied at Juilliard, NYU, DePaul, and U of I, and I got into everything, but Julliard
Jeff Brown: (18:38)
Did you have to do so you did auditions for all of them. Oh my God. Yeah.
Jeff Brown: (18:41)
Jeffrey Jeffrey. We went together to the auditions.
Jeff Brown: (18:46)
You, me and you, me and Heather, Heather go with us too, right? Yeah. Yeah, totally. I remember. I mean, it was terrifying. Terrifying.
Jeff Brown: (18:56)
Do you remember what you did? What your monologue?
Jeff Brown: (18:59)
God, I don't. Do you do that?
Jeff Brown: (19:04)
Just a monologue. I.
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez: (19:05)
t was a monologue. I think it was a model. I thought it was cheap. Maybe it was just one monologue because we're young and they had mercy on us. But I did, I did a monologue from like some play that was totally inappropriate about a rape.
Jeff Brown: (19:22)
I know that I know what I did in the DePaul showcase. That was a huge mistake.
Jeff Brown: (19:27)
What did you do at the showcase at the showcase?
Jeff Brown: (19:29)
I did Arnold Wiggins from the boys next door, which is a mentally challenged man now in today's world, that would be in today's world. I would hope someone would be like, do not do that. But back then, there were like, great. I thought it was like, sort of like, I'm thinking like, Oh, like it's like a sketch sort of thing, but it was so random and weird that everyone, I can only imagine people were like, Is he, is he really...? Right.
Jeff Brown: (20:07)
And we only got to do one thing. So that was your.
Jeff Brown: (20:11)
What? Uh, like you're thinking about all these people, like, who's cool. What do I need in my roster of actors? Hm. I do not need that.
Jeff Brown: (20:21)
That's like a, yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Brown: (20:25)
Told me that may change the poles in there. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Brown: (20:31)
But did you, um, did you get like, did anybody call you, did you get any agents interested?
Jeff Brown: (20:39)
I did get one or two phone calls from someone in Los Angeles, like one or two. And I remember they weren't, um, they weren't a big enough deal to like well to, um, to really move there for, so I, uh, um, didn't, I just, I just called them and was like, um, um, I'm just going to go.
Gina Pulice: (21:02)
So something I really admire about you is how seriously you take your work, whatever it is. And I remember, uh, when we, uh, lived together in that warehouse with Rob, that you would diligently get up every day and practice drums for what I remember to be like four hours at a stretch, maybe, maybe twice a day
Jeff Brown: (21:25)
Easily. I looked at that as like my own graduate school drumming course. Like I was taking lessons. I was, uh, I was, I mean, I would wake up with coffee and just sit there to pad for an hour every day, easily. Just [inaudible], you know, whatever.
Gina Pulice: (21:41)
I, I don't know how many people do that. I mean, at a young age, especially, I, I, I, I don't, I mean, I don't know that much about musicians necessarily, but most people don't take their craft.
Jeff Brown: (21:56)
I still To do that. Like if I get an audition these days, you know, I'm still like, okay, everything I have falls away and I'm like, this is top priority. Let's spend all, you know, let's get these lines down. Like I want to be memorized. I like to rehearse my auditions. Um, that's just how I like it. I've, I've, I've experimented in various levels of, of rehearsal. And I've found that, that I like to be pretty. Um, I don't th the, the acting, I want to be the last thing that I have to worry about. It's more about how am I going to get there? Where's the, where am I going to park? You know, all those logistics. Um,
Jen Bosworth- Ramirez: (22:31)
So I have a question about the, something that just came up for me is, um, asking about the theater school you got there. Did you feel as though you were, um, going there, you like caved in to your parents' request to go to DePaul
Jeff Brown: (22:50)
A hundred percent, a hundred percent. I was very much so, so basically, so my parents were like, look, we're not going to allow you to go to, and we're not going to give you any money to go to N like, you cannot go to NYU. You're going to DePaul. That is it. And I was not happy about that. I wanted to get out. It was also like the theater school was very classical theater, and it was sort of that same thing of like, I wanted to do, like, like at NYU, I was going to do the experimental program. Um, and so I really felt like I was sort of, yeah. Caving in to my, to my parents sort of deal. And like every summer, the deal that the way my parents sold the deal to me is they're like, look, if you go there, you don't have to work during the summers and you can do whatever you want.
Jeff Brown: (23:38)
Oh, Oh, the rainbow,
Jeff Brown: (23:43)
It was working. And I would come of there with a little bit of money, but it wasn't like, I think the first summer at DePaul, I went away every summer, like D like the day after graduation or that school ended, I was out the door the first year I went to glacier national park for three months and worked in the park there just to get out like, so that was sort of how they sold it to me. So that was my, that was my sort of saving grace. But, you know, when you think back to the training that we had, as far as acting goes, you really are not going to, it's probably the same. I would have gotten the same deal at NYU, you know? Yes. The experimental program, I would have focused on maybe doing different works and stuff like that. But I do feel like I got, as far as acting goes, I was exposed to a number of fundamental, um, uh, concepts that have stayed with me, like in terms of getting in touch with my body and my voice, and being able to control those, which today I use in voiceover, it it's weird.
Jeff Brown: (24:46)
I don't feel like I learned how to act so much as I learned how to deeply connect to myself, which is arguably acting. Right. So DePaul was working on some like deep, deeper levels. I felt like, but I didn't really learn how to act until I moved to LA. And I was like, okay, you want to do this? Right. Okay. Now go, okay, let's do that. And I was like, and I put myself in so many acting classes when I got here. I just, like, I continued studying for so long. When I first got out here,
Jeff Brown: (25:24)
I am still constantly saying to myself, when I see a really good performance, like, Oh, that's what acting is. Like, I feel like I'm still trying to learn what it's about.
Jeff Brown: (25:35)
Every time you have to relearn every chip, because everything is so different and everything is so like, well now is it this style? Or what's the tone? And what's, there's so many different things, you know, for every show, every show, every writer has a different vision that they're trying to, you know, find. And our job is to sort of, okay, what is use all the clues that they've given us to be like, I think this is what they, you know, and then how to connect to that is always a challenge. But, um, yeah, like, like, like the, the theater school at DePaul taught me much more sort of deeper, fundamental things than actually how to get a job as an actor, because it did not do that.
Jeff Brown: (26:20)
Right. No, but it's life thing. So it taught you life things, things, I mean, everybody should learn how to relate to their body and how to use their voice and how to be.
Jeff Brown: (26:29)
And, and that there's a clock somewhere in the small of your back, somehow
Jeff Brown: (26:34)
That's going on. I forgot about the pelvic clock, pelvic clock, the clock. Okay. Wait, I want ask you a question about auditions. Do you remember the, uh, if the auditions among the schools were similar or
Jeff Brown: (26:51)
They were, I w what we did when we auditioned for theater school is I remember going to some sort of hotel. And there were in each suite was a different school. And I did NYU Julliard and all of it in one day, like one fell swoop. You went in and you did your monologue three times in three different suites.
Jeff Brown: (27:10)
My, I only did one. I only auditioned for one school. I only applied to one school and the audition was mind blowing, because even though I did drama in high school, my teacher was like the English teacher. She didn't really know anything about theater. And so my audition was in San Francisco. So, you know, I, I drove from Sacramento and David have Callie was running it. And we had to do all of these warmups and do all of these space exercises. And I'll never forget, he, he said, no, this space between your legs. I was like, Oh my God, I was so freaked out. And I left. And I said to my mom, there's no way those people would ever, I didn't know, one single thing about that before I went to that audition,
Jeff Brown: (28:10)
Jeffrey, wasn't our DePaul edition at DePaul.
Jeff Brown: (28:13)
Yes. Now that I'm remembering it, it was in that room, in that movement room. I remember that. So I guess we did Jew in the hotel and then DePaul, because we lived in Chicago, we could go to the school and audition.
Jeff Brown: (28:25)
This was similar. We had all this warmups and Murphy for us. Right. It was Rick Murphy for us, probably because David F. Kelly was in California doing Gina's. But I remember the same thing of being like, and, and granted Evanston had like a, a, more of a program, but I still didn't know what space. Oh. The only reason I knew what space object was because of pivot theater workshop, Joyce pivot. And I still was like, what is this? This is, this is, what is this? You guys both did pivot.
Jeff Brown: (28:57)
Yeah.
Jeff Brown: (28:59)
And Jeff, you did, uh, you did it like a touring thing with second city.
Jeff Brown: (29:04)
So when I was in high school, they had a high school acting training group program, um, that I did, uh, in my sophomore, junior year. And then in junior year, I got into the high school touring company, which they had at the time, which we went around to, uh, high schools and did classic second city scenes and improv stuff. And, you know, who was in, it was Brett Gelman. Do you know that actor? He is in, um, Fleabag. He plays the horrible husband and Fleabag he's in stranger things, the crazy conspiracy theorist. He's, he's amazing. Yeah. He was in that. Um, and it was, yeah. So in, in both, both of those improv training groups, space objects, and space and space in hand and all that stuff was very much. Um, so you were not surprised by all of that, that didn't throw me so much. Um, yeah. That, because I had been exposed to the improv thing through pivot at a very early age.
Jeff Brown: (30:03)
What, so how did you get, um, grapes of wrath?
Jeff Brown: (30:07)
I got grapes of wrath. Um, we have the poster right there.
Jeff Brown: (30:16)
Nice. Um,
Jeff Brown: (30:16)
Greg got great to wrath because when I was in eighth grade, I wanted an agent and my parents were like, you can get an agent in eighth grade or something like that. And I got an agent, um, and the agent said, was that a plus talent? Does that even exist anymore? No, no, no. Right. But, um, they said a good thing to do is to send your headshot out to all the theater companies in town, just so they have it. And we did, and my headshot came across the desk of Randall, Arnie, Randall, Arnie now runs the Geffin out here in Los Angeles and was a real high up Steppenwolf, artistic director type guy. Um, and the day that they, uh, someone who looked similar to me, um, was leaving to go do a show in LA. Like they were like, I can do the opening night performance with the grapes of wrath.
Jeff Brown: (31:09)
And then I'm leaving after that night to go out to Los Angeles, to shoot a pilot, like a, got my, you know, dream LA pilot thing. And so he was leaving and they needed someone to fill it. It was a one-line part. And I looked very similar to this person and they, they, I think I went down and had a meeting with them and there was maybe like two or three other kids that they were looking at. It wasn't very, you know, it wasn't like a really strenuous process and they offered me the job, but I was like, and my parents were, I told my parents, I was like, no, I want to play tackle football. I really want to play tackle.
Jeff Brown: (31:44)
Yeah.
Jeff Brown: (31:47)
Okay. But this is a really big opportunity with some really big people. And I don't know that you really want to pass on this and I'll never forget this. I was like, no, I'm going to pass. And I called up to call, um, I think it was Randall Arnie or whoever was doing the casting. And I got on the phone with them while I was on the phone with them. I changed my mind cause they were just like Jeffrey. So we're so, you know, and I just, and it was like, yeah, I'll do it in an instant, just like that. And then, you know, to this day, like I was working at Nickelodeon and one of the, the, the showrunner actually had gone to Northwestern and studied with Mary Zimmerman and knew Frank Galatian had that show in his mind was a legend in his mind. And he found out that I was in that. And he was like, you were in that, Oh my God. Like still to tell you that
Jeff Brown: (32:40)
I've heard that show come up. A number of times in the last, like five years, it comes up frequently in all different kinds.
Jeff Brown: (32:47)
Yeah. It really was an influential, um, sort of moment that solidified Steppenwolf as a theater company for sure. Um, and just the Chicago theater scene and just, you know, being a part of that, it's lucky at such a young age. I mean, when we did it, it was so much fun. I mean, it was really, really cool to get dropped off. My, my poor, my mom, there was like a carpool, there was another Evanston kid that was in it and we would carpool down there and we would hang up there at the Royal George theater. And it was, it was a lot of, it was a lot of fun. I remember thinking you were very, it was very cool when I heard about it. It was a kid that I knew that had been in a real production. Yeah. Yeah. It was. And it was, you know, and, and at the time, none of those people were really famous yet. Uh, but John Riley left to go, do, I think it was casualties of war in the middle of that in the middle of that run.
Jeff Brown: (33:45)
What did you, uh, what was your, like, did you have a good relationship with the other, with the adults? Did the adults mix in with the kids or was it
Jeff Brown: (33:55)
Oh man. Absolutely. So there was an acronym skip Sudduth, who was on a show called third watch, uh, for many, many years. And he was sort of a Chicago, he was a Steppenwolf member and he was, he made each of the kids a stage makeup kit and taught us how to do latex things and make, he made me a, how we made a Halloween mask, like a latex really fancy Halloween mask that was painted. He was so nice. I remember Eric Simon son was so nice. Gary Sinise was, so everyone was the only person that I remember being a little afraid of was Nathan Davis, who was very old at the time. And, uh, just, I think he wasn't feeling that good cause he seemed pretty cranky. Um, but, but like Terry, Kenny, I mean, all those guys were just, it sounds a nice family, like a family situation. Like it was. Yeah. And I still I've run into, I saw Tom Arwin last year and it was just like, Oh my God. And he didn't recognize me of course. But I was like, do I love doing this? I've done it to a few of those guys being like, do you remember the little blonde kid with curly hair? And they're like, ah, kind of. I'm like, what the hell is me? It's, it's, it's really, it's really neat to a durable. Yeah.
Jeff Brown: (35:13)
What was it? Do you, do you know what it was on the phone? What made you change your mind?
Jeff Brown: (35:19)
I think as I, as, as, as I look back on it, I think the excitement in the voice of the casting director, cause they thought I was calling to say, yes, I'd love to do this. You know, they had called being like we're offering Jeffrey the part. And then I was calling back to accept the part and, and, and just their excitement. They were like, so we're so excited. And I don't know if it was that as a kid. I couldn't say no to that. Like, that's very powerful. And there was, I wasn't didn't have the strength to just be like, um, no I'm going to play tackle football. But for some probably it was probably just realistically, it was more my inability to socially say no to someone that wants me to say yes, so badly in a position of power. And I just said yes and, and um, uh, really, really, really glad that I did.
Jeff Brown: (36:11)
But it's true. There's no way you could have conceived of the impact that would have had or what kind of opportunity it was. My son is into acting and every once in a while, he's like, I don't want to go to this audition. And I'm like, no, so you don't have to be an actor, but if you want to be an actor, you have to go to the audition.
Jeff Brown: (36:31)
I had that exact conversation, like, like my, my son does a little bit of voiceover and stuff like that. And I'm always like, you don't have to do this, but if you don't want to do it, it's not, it's not gonna, it's not going to really, it doesn't work that way. It's hard when you feel like it. Yeah. Yeah. It's real. It's and that's the thing with kids and acting is, is I remember working with a kid and it was, I think we were shooting Trueblood and this little kid was, who was playing my son, the objectors, like, all right. Run around in the sprinkler and just sort of play in the sprinkler. Okay. And he's like directors, like action. And the kid just bolts just runs, runs away. And they're like, what happened? And he's like, there was a B. Okay. Okay. And I remember he was a really precocious, you know, kid with a lot of energy and I was watching his onset teacher trying to explain to him that this is work and we're working now. And this kid is like, no, I have no idea what you're talking about. Right. What are you doing? There is no work.
Jeff Brown: (37:34)
Most of the time when you're around a bunch of those kids, like I have been on sets with Isaac where the kids are like, I want to go to school. I don't want to be here. You know, a lot of parents pushing them
Jeff Brown: (37:47)
Into it. Yeah. I've seen that too. And it's really
Jeff Brown: (37:50)
Okay. So you be grudgingly accepted that you're going to go to DePaul. And then how did your experience of being there match up with what your expectation was going in?
Jeff Brown: (38:03)
That's a really good question. I X, okay. So my expected, I expected my I'm to, I expected to not like it as much as I did. Um, and I think that that has to do with the fact that the people that were there, um, I made really great lifelong friends there. Um, I didn't think that I would, I instantly sort of assumed that DePaul was going to be filled with all of these actors that were wearing all black and smoking cigarettes all the time, which there certainly were that that existed, but there were other types, um, of people there that I didn't quite expect. Um, and I still think theater school, its best asset is who you meet and who you go through those trials with, because those are lifelong bonds that you make. And that's the real, um, the real sort of the, the best thing I got out of DePaul where the people that I met there.
Jeff Brown: (39:06)
Um, so I would say my expectation was that it was going to be this very, um, you know, and I went in this very sort of, you know, like, like very actory situation, which it absolutely was, but there was more to it than that, which I connected with. And I started, I remember going in being like, I'm not going to socially hang out with actors, I'm going to just go to the classes and be, that'll be my major, but I want to hang out with people outside of the theater school. And that was sort of what I, how I went and be like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to hang out with Nick Thorpe as much as I can because he has nothing to do with the theater school. Um, so that was
Jeff Brown: (39:48)
It wasn't set up like that. You really could. That was that you would have to work very hard to do that.
Jeff Brown: (39:53)
Yes. Yes. Because your time is so much, you have no other, there's only 24 hours in the day, but I, that, that helped. But then I met people that I wanted to hang out with at the school. So, you know, I didn't quite expect that aspect.
Jeff Brown: (40:11)
And those are people that you're all like still in touch.
Jeff Brown: (40:14)
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff Brown: (40:17)
Did you make, did you hang, you hung out with people outside of the theater school though, too. Yes.
Jeff Brown: (40:22)
Yeah. I played in a band for junior year and senior year and we were playing shows all over Chicago all the time with, you know, with, and, and that was a completely different than the theater school social scene. Uh, I remember one time I had, I had a day in, in, in, in theater school where I had a show, um, I did, I had a 10:00 AM show, like for one of the plays that we were in and then another one at night and then a gig with the band after that, at like the, at the bop shop, starting at, you know, 11:00 PM or something like that.
Jeff Brown: (40:59)
You were moonlighting as a musician while you theater school
Jeff Brown: (41:03)
And that's and that's. And I thought, wow, what a great day? This is going to be filled with all of this artistic creation and still, I, I still, I still get to have those days like that. That's still how I try to, that's my goal still to make those days where I get to do everything I like to do in one day.
Jeff Brown: (41:23)
That's very cool. Did, did any, or any of the Henry danger kids going to go to theater school, you think? Um,
Jeff Brown: (41:31)
I don't think so. I don't think so. Um, some of them may go to college. Um, right now they're all, I think kind of just taking a breath because they've been working so hard already at their young ages. Um, but I wouldn't be, I, I don't think they would go for acting if they went to college. I think they would probably go for something else just to have the college experience. Yeah.
Jeff Brown: (41:54)
Because they don't have to. I mean, they, they have,
Jeff Brown: (41:59)
Yeah, right.
Jeff Brown: (42:00)
I could see him going to like film school directing kind of like a James Franco angle. Um, but I, but I, but I don't think that, yeah, I think if they went to theater school, it would be so strange for them to have the careers that they have and be around people that want what they want so badly. That's something that's. So, you know, in the acting world is so hard for everyone. And that's why people like don't talk about their work and you know, like, because there's this pervading, um, thing of everyone wants if you're working in, you're a very successful actor, everyone, all the other actors that you hang out with on some level is like, I w I want what you have. And I think that will be really in theater school that would be amplified to the 10th degree. It would be kind of strange
Jeff Brown: (42:50)
It already. What is that? There already was that at the theater school? That's my Donnell had that thing would be where the psychic vulture.
Jeff Brown: (42:57)
Yes. And we all looked at Jonah's Avery. Like this guy has been in movies before, like he's done it. Yeah. Oh, good. He's fantastic. Tell him to make some pizza. He's got to make some better pizza.
Jeff Brown: (43:13)
He's painted his pig pizza. Pictures on Facebook are no good.
Jeff Brown: (43:16)
They're so funny. They make me laugh so hard.
Jeff Brown: (43:19)
Can we talk a little bit about, um, blue man? Absolutely. Okay. So can you tell me that sort of process for you in terms of being like, this is what I'm going to do?
Jeff Brown: (43:33)
Blue man group I had, well, okay, sure. I had a friend of that. So I, after college, after I finished DePaul, I was like, I'm going to play drums. I just want to be a drummer. I wanna do everything I can to be a drummer. And with the band that I was in and we moved and got this warehouse that you lived in with us, Gina and, um, a friend that's a lead learner told me, I do you remember that? She, she was had, she's literally said to me, one day I had a dream last night that you became that you beat out Michael Jackson for the part of a blue man in blue man group. And I opened the paper today and I saw this and she shows me open call for blue man group auditions. Yeah. And I went to the open call and it went fine.
Jeff Brown: (44:23)
I didn't really think too much of it. And then I was staying at my girlfriend at the time I was at her house. And I remember I got a call from a roommate at like one in the morning. And he's like, Hey dude, blue man group, just call, call back for you. Cause they had forgotten to do their callback calls. This is classic blue man group, you know, at the time. Cause it was, it was, it was early in the company and it was, it was a lot of fun and out there, like he was like, you gotta be at your call back tomorrow at three or something like that. And I went to the call back and I did the call back. And again, it was, um, very, you know, like they had us tell a story with your eyes. The story was, um, what to look at, look at the camera and be like, what is that?
Jeff Brown: (45:08)
And then, you know, what, what is that to, uh, Oh, it's something good too. Oh, it's something bad. No, wait, it's something good. Like something really simple like that. And so I did that and I did some basic drumming. The drumming and blue man group is very simplistic. It's not complicated. So that was as a blue man. I should say, if you're in the band, that's a completely other, uh, other story. Um, and then I didn't hear anything for a month maybe. And then they called up and they were like, Hey Jeffrey, we'd like you to come to New York for a two week long audition sort of camp type thing. And this was right at the worst time possible because the band that I was in had just finished recording a record and we were all excited and we're like, we just made our first record.
Jeff Brown: (45:55)
Like here we are like, we're about to be on the, you know, we're taking this to the next level. Um, and that summer I was supposed to kind of run this kid's camp that I've been working at. And my mom was coming out to the camp during the, the two week audition period. So I had to tell the camp, I can't be there for this. I tell my mom, you're going to have to go to camp by herself, which she did and had probably more fun there. Cause they have a week of adult camp before the kids camp. And um, she probably had more fun than adult camp without me being there. And I had to tell the band that like, Hey, I'm going to go do this. And if this happens, I'm probably not coming back. And so it was a lot on the line and I went out to the two week audition and there were six or seven of us I think.
Jeff Brown: (46:43)
And we were learning parts of the show. I mean, back then the audition process was now it's very much more streamlined and much more pared down. Um, and we got into makeup and we performed a PVC piece. Um, the opening piece of the show with the paint on the drums and stuff. And we did a crunch, which is the captain crunch bit, which has a lot of acting in it or whatever. Um, and then they, yeah, they th as each, like every day, they'd be like, we're going to keep you, we're going to happen. You're seeing guys get cut. Oh, my reality show. It literally was a reality show in Brazil. Um, and they actually found a blue man and they just put it on TV. But, um, at the end of the two weeks, I made it through the end and they were like, we'd like to hire you into training and you're still, and then you're go to training and they're like, we're not going to fully hire you until you're in the show doing well. So then training was like two months of every week. We're keeping you here. We're going to keep you here. Yeah, it was, it was, it was really, really,
Jeff Brown: (47:46)
Really training for
Jeff Brown: (47:47)
That show. Yes, we were getting, I got paid for everything you got paid for the audition. That's what I didn't realize what a big deal. I thought blue man group was some rinky-dink little, you know, off-Broadway weird show I had when I got to New York and saw their massive spaces in their massive real estate that they owned. And, and they were like, we're going to pay you $800 a week to train. I was like, what?
Jeff Brown: (48:14)
Sign me up? You were like, yes, you are,
Jeff Brown: (48:17)
Man. I was like, that's more money than I've ever made in my life. I am in. And the training was really hard, really hard, um, psychologically. And just that show is there's no way to know what that's like until you're up there because you're reacting to the audience so much that there's, there's no way to do it until you're on stage. That's why they don't hire you until you're on stage in front of people. And you can handle because the audience is the fourth character in the show. Um, and
Jeff Brown: (48:48)
So how, how do you you're that? You're at like at a hotel or something?
Jeff Brown: (48:52)
They had a, they on 12th and third on the corner of 12th and third in the East village, they had an apartment that was all blue man group people. It was like animal house. It was insane, insane. Um, because they were hiring me to open the Vegas show. Cause what happened was, is they went to all of their performance and they're like, Hey, we're going to do a Vegas show who wants to move to Vegas. And every single one of them, I think there was one person that said I'll do it. And everyone else was like, no way. And they're like, we can't have, um, untrained newbies in our biggest show ever. So they, they pushed the show back, I think by a year and just hired eight new blue men and had us train and live at this house. And we would do shows in New York.
Jeff Brown: (49:42)
And then they'd say, go to Chicago for a week and do shows there. And then we'd come back to New York and do shows there and they'd be like, go to Boston. They need someone's injured and you'd go to Boston. And you were just doing the show as much as possible to, to, to get up and running for, for Vegas. But the, the, my first show as a blue man was very, very intense. And really like when you start so in the New York show, the way the show opens, you crawl onto the stage in the pitch black, and you find your, your hand finds this flashlight and you, and you're in this little tiny box. Cause the first thing is like a shadow piece, right? So you're in this little tiny box and you know that you have a certain amount of time, like one once this, cause they have a little sign that the audience is saying, all these things, right. They call it the second sign. Hey, hello, welcome to blue mat. I promise not to take photos. I promise you no to laugh or whatever the, they have all these little bits and you're hearing that and you're in the pitch black and you've got to set up all these props. Like you've got to make sure that your sticks are ready to grab and you're, you're wearing this welding helmet. I mean, it is terrifying.
Jeff Brown: (50:50)
Can I, uh, can I ask you a question about how, uh, I'm really, really fascinated by resilience and how people get through these kinds of things? So what do you attribute not losing your mind doing during this process too?
Jeff Brown: (51:05)
Um, that's a really good question. I'm going to say I did lose my mind. There were definitely moments where I was like, I am absolutely not going to get this job. Like I, like we watched other people get cut from training that had been doing it for a month and a half. We saw that happening and you're just like, Oh my God. Like, you know what? I, I don't really know, Jen. I don't know. I just kept, I just kept going and hoped for the best. Um, I didn't stop put it that way. It didn't stop.
Jeff Brown: (51:42)
He kept moving. I kept moving.
Jeff Brown: (51:44)
Did you form relationships with the other people who are auditioning?
Jeff Brown: (51:49)
Absolutely. Still one of my best friends in the world is the guy that I went through training with. I was at the very first audition with, we live together through training. We moved to Vegas together like, Oh yeah, it was another like, it's those, those that, that life bond where you go through these sort of amazing trials,
Jeff Brown: (52:08)
It's like the army. It sounds like the armed forces.
Jeff Brown: (52:11)
Absolutely. Because you're so scared together. You're so vulnerable. You're so scared. Like, and that was like training for blue man. They were really like trying to make you as, you know, cause the whole character is in this wildly uncomfortable state for an hour and a half. That's where it lives. Like that's normal, that's base for that character. Right. And um, you, yeah, you, you really, in those spaces where you're most vulnerable and most frightened is where you form the most, the greatest friends. And I think the same thing goes with theater school because theater school is terrifying. It's scary to a say that to yourself and to the world and to other people that want to be actors, that I am an actor too. I am going to do this. I am putting every, you know, a hundred percent of my being into this endeavor. It's scary.
Jeff Brown: (53:11)
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, mortifyingly scary. So we had this long conversation with Zack helm and he's, you know, very involved with the theater school he's on the board, et cetera, et cetera. So he gave us a lot of insight about everything changed since then. And one of the major changes that was news to me is that it's not a cut program anymore. I've heard this. So, um, do you, what was your whole experience with the cut situation? Were you ever on warning?
Jeff Brown: (53:37)
Well, yes I was on warning now. See, here's where, here's where I wonder about, uh, that's a really interesting question for me because originally I didn't want to go to DePaul. The cut thing was not a factor because I didn't, if I got cut out of it, like fantastic, I'm outta here. I'm sure that's how I felt going in. And certainly for the first year I think had I gotten cut in the second year, I would have, there would have been either year getting cut would have been a hard pill to swallow any way you cut it. There's no easy way to be told. You're not good enough that without question. But my defense was like, I, I had a, I had, again that God, I was so lucky to be, to be able to be not paying for it and to be cut and to be, have spent all that money on a school would be just horrific. Um, so the cut didn't have the, the, the weight of the weight that it did for other students. Um, I, I mean, I think some people that got cut did need to be told this might not be the right profession for you. I mean, there were people that got cut and went on and had successful careers, you know?
Jeff Brown: (55:00)
Yeah. There's, there's almost no equation there because you, and maybe there's like four people from our year that are making their living doing what we went to school for. And there's way more people than that, that were cut that are making their living, doing what we went to school for. So yeah, it's there, it's there to me, there seems to be very little rhyme or reason to the whole cut system. Yeah. It didn't, I mean, it seemed like it was, it depended on who your acting teacher was and how your personality clashed or didn't with your acting teacher, how much, how much of a scholarship you were getting or not. I mean, there was all these factors. And then also I think that there's maybe another piece, cause some of the people who got cut early were really, um, had a hard time with authority. Yes. But that doesn't mean they weren't like really talented
Jeff Brown: (55:57)
Or the way or the way people looked or the way they, you know, how they carry themselves. It was just, it was, it, it did seem to me like a, a bit of a random thing, but I also, and we've talked about this and I don't know what your feeling is about it Jeffrey, but like, it's like if it was, was it scary? It wasn't scary to you at all. So this is of different for you, but, but, um, could you have done, if you were cut, would you think that you still would have been an actor I guess is my question?
Jeff Brown: (56:34)
Yes, I do. I think I would still would have been an actor. I might've been more of a drummer. Had I been cut it would've, it would've depended on because I got back into, I got really into drumming my software, I stopped. So I was a drummer. And then when I got into high school, I started to be there. I was, it was, I could be an actor that we're placed to be in. And I was like, and I think junior year of high school, I was like, I'm going to be an actor. And I remember selling drums. I was like, I don't want to drum anymore. I'm just an actor. And then sophomore year of college, there was a drum set at the house that I lived at and I started playing it again. And I was like, Oh man, this is really fun. And um, I think I might've been maybe more of a drummer. I don't know, but I still would have pursued a career in the arts I think, because that's just what I was brought up.
Jeff Brown: (57:24)
Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that you said a while back was, um, that the theater school didn't necessarily prepare you for getting a job, which I think that's probably, that may be a universal feeling. I mean, I certainly had that. So how, how did you figure that out?
Jeff Brown: (57:44)
Um, well I left, so when I left the theater school, I went out to be in a band and we got out to San Francisco and I thought to myself, well, I should at least try to get an agent and see if I could book some acting work just to make some money, you know? And I act in the San Francisco market, I did not have a problem booking work, the industrials, just the theater training that I had. Um, it didn't like it wasn't. So the whole Hollywood, like when you get, you know, your first Holly, you know, real actual lines or sides or a script or whatever there's numbers and it just looks so confusing and so weird by going to San Francisco, um, it was a very, it was much easier to, to, to, to book work, uh, what I want to qualify, the statement that I made before.
Jeff Brown: (58:43)
So the theater school did prepare me to book work because I did work work when I, when I got out of there. But I think had I gone to Los Angeles, it would not have prepared me to book work in the, in, in a much more competitive, um, cutthroat scene. Does that make sense? Um, uh, you got your sea legs and the way that I learned when I did move to LA and started to really want to work out here is I took audition classes. I took from everyone. I was in acting class so much, like I was addicted to it. I remember I took a class where I took a class from Jeffrey Tambor actually, which was probably an a, which was an amazing class. And he was like, you need to stop going act in class.
Jeff Brown: (59:31)
She was like, you are addicted to acting class and you need to prove to yourself, you have this addiction that you're not good enough and you need to be in class to prove to yourself that you can do this constantly. And you need to get to another level of, I can do this and I don't need to prove it. And that's when you're going to start working. Um, so I, I just took classes specifically, the teach you how to audition, how to deal with action in the action lines that when you have no one to punch or what to do when there's five characters in the seat and, you know, just those technical things. Um, we didn't get told that really. I remember there was a class that was like, here's how to get a headshot and stuff. But, but also there's also this, when I was at DePaul, everything was sort of in a, like, it wasn't real, it was when real life starts, but you're still not needing that.
Jeff Brown: (01:00:35)
When I moved to LA, it was dire. It was learned to do this or find something else to do that simple. Right. It, what I really wanted to know how to do this really badly when I was at DePaul and in theater school, I didn't have that fire under me to like, want to learn. And it wasn't until I really wanted to learn that I really did learn really. There's something about where you're at, that needs to sort of, um, accept, you know, how seriously are you going to take, take stuff. And, and I, and I took it seriously, but not on the level of like, I have to, I have to learn this right now,
Jeff Brown: (01:01:16)
But did you do, I thought you were going to say, you did get on warning. I did get on warning.
Jeff Brown: (01:01:23)
Absolutely. Got on warning. David app called me, sat me down. And he was like, look, you're this long hair kind of whatever, who cares kind of a hippie, like you need to, you need to really start showing up a lot more and putting a lot more care into this, or you will be cut and you're now on warning. I was like, Oh, okay. And then Don Elka was like, I'm going to put you in a play and you're going to cut that hair. And he did, and I had this lovely. Was that, uh, it was
Jeff Brown: (01:02:02)
What's an Andrew please in the line? No,
Jeff Brown: (01:02:06)
It was, uh, it was a, um, it was, uh
Jeff Brown: (01:02:14)
That's. Okay. It wasn't a kid show. No, it
Jeff Brown: (01:02:17)
Was a workshop. It was a, that was, um, Sean Spratt was in it. Um, it was, it was like, um, Oh my God. Yes, yes. British or no, it wasn't, it wasn't um, that was Patrice. Yes. Patrice to the pitcher stuff. Um, it was, yeah, it was, uh, it was a British, there was a British workshop, um, importance of being earnest who ask something like that. It wasn't that, but something like that. Sure.
Jeff Brown: (01:02:53)
Uh, Oh God, I'm just going to ask you. Oh no, Don. I was just going to say God blessed on Elko. Uh, he seems to really see right to the center of people. And David did too. I mean, my warning conversation with him was very similar, which was, you know, the way you're approaching, like your, your style and your life. Like, it's like, you don't want to get your hands dirty and that's not gonna work here. You you're going to need to like wear sweat pants and put, not put makeup on and like roll, roll around on the floor. Yeah. So wait, how did, why were you talking to David if Rick was your teacher?
Jeff Brown: (01:03:36)
This was sophomore year, I think. Okay. I don't know how I ended up in his office, but because my acting teacher was Rick Murphy freshman year. I think I had David out Collie second year. No, I had Don Elko second year.
Jeff Brown: (01:03:53)
Yeah. Well, no, we had the same acting teacher for two years. Anyway.
Jeff Brown: (01:03:59)
Maybe we had Rick Murphy for two years. Is that right?
Jeff Brown: (01:04:02)
I think so. I don't know our sections. Yeah, because I never had David F. Kelly and I was with you first year. Yeah. I, we had a special interests.
Jeff Brown: (01:04:13)
Maybe that could have been it.
Jeff Brown: (01:04:17)
I, cause I think I don't really, I don't know Rick very much, but I doubt he would be delivering news like that. You know what I mean? Was he the kind of person who would sit you down and talk, talk about how you as a person were getting in the way of you as an actor?
Jeff Brown: (01:04:33)
No, Rick Murphy would sort of play with the light switch and go,
Jeff Brown: (01:04:36)
He did, that's what he did Jeffrey. He said what I, what to sit for my warning. And he said, what sign are you? And I was like, Oh no. I said, I'm a, I'm a Libra. And he's like, Oh, well, this makes perfect sense. And I'm like, I don't,
Jeff Brown: (01:04:51)
I think about it. And you see it from the perspective now it's so fascinating because it's so overwhelming and huge when you're there. And when you see it now in the context of, Oh, there's all these theater schools and there's so many people want to be actors. And there's so many actors that didn't even go to theater school. Like it's a very, you know, but, but they're training you for the stage. That's their thing is that they are training you for the, this. And they're about that. Like at most of the conservatories, they're like, we are giving you a theater stage training. Um, and I was certainly more prepared to go to an audition for a play than I was for a television show or movie or whatever. But I would like to do a play.
Jeff Brown: (01:05:37)
Yeah, you should. I think it will be really fun to go back and like figure out who you are now. I mean, that's one really interesting thing maybe about acting in general. I don't know. I never acted for the screen, but certainly acting in theater is you do have to check in with yourself about like, where are you at emotionally? Like how far have you grown compared to your character? Or where do you, where are you at with your life choices? I find it to be like an intensely psychological, you know, personally psychological experience.
Jeff Brown: (01:06:08)
Absolutely. I always felt like theater was like the greatest of the psychological adventures because you're really trying to, not only, you're trying to figure out who this person is, but then you're trying to be that person and transform yourself into that person. Um, which is really interesting on so many levels, because then it brings it to who you are and what similarities and differences that you have and all that.
Jeff Brown: (01:06:35)
Do you do that as much with like, did you do that on Henry danger? I was my dad. You just for your dad. Okay.
Jeff Brown: (01:06:42)
Yeah. I, I drew so much from my own father, um, because that character was, my dad was wacky and crazy and this character was wacky and crazy. Um, one thing that I did not learn at DePaul, uh, specifically was to use my, my, my real life as, um, fuel, you know, I learned that Jeffrey Tambor actually was the greatest teacher of that. Like you use your life, use your life. I remember teachers saying specifically it was, so it was confusing. I was so confused about all of the techniques and methods.
Jeff Brown: (01:07:20)
I agree to this day, if somebody says, you know, so did you guys study like ski? I'm like, yeah, we learn to shove space between our legs and other things. But like, I can't either. I can't say, Oh yeah, that's Spolin that's status last week.
Jeff Brown: (01:07:42)
I just remember being highly confused and not really understanding what an intention, what, like what, like, it seemed like so confusing where it's really not that confusing.
Jeff Brown: (01:07:56)
Well, you know, it's not confusing to you now though, because if I speak for myself just in my life, my head was so far up my at that page. I just had no idea about how are you, how am I going to learn intention for a character when I don't, I don't approach my own life with any intentionality, which is an argument for, you know, like in some theater schools, I've heard of people talk about going for theater school and being told you need to go into therapy because you, your psychology is really impeding your acting and like you have this potential, but you're all up in your head. Right. Um, I think that's actually illegal, so they don't do that anymore, but it makes sense why they would, because if you, if you can't and I guess that was the point of all the voice and body work was helping you try to integrate like yourself and who your self was. Our conversation with Zach was mind-blowing because he apparently came home to the theater school with all of that, like self-awareness. And because of that, he was able to like pan back and see what was going on and make decisions if he liked it or not.
Jeff Brown: (01:09:09)
Wow. Now that's yeah. Zach is highly intelligent, highly evolved. Uh, who, yeah, I mean, I mean, I remember thinking that he, like, he had something going on at the theater school that other people did not, he had just an awareness, he just did. He just, he sort of operated as like this outlaw on the outside of things. Um, and he really seemed to know himself and know who he was and what he wanted to do. Um, yeah, I did not have that again. That's why I think I learned more about acting when I was much older. And when I came to Los Angeles, when I was 28 and was like, okay, I really got to learn this. I learned so much more about it then. Um, when I was in, in, in, in theater school, because you are
Jeff Brown: (01:09:57)
Yeah, 17 years old, 18 years old. What the, I mean, I guess that also leads me to ask you, like, if, if I don't know if, if your son or if, if someone's comes to you and says, I want to go in there 16, you know, there say I want to go to theater school. What are you, what are you Jeffrey Brown? What are you saying to them?
Jeff Brown: (01:10:15)
Well, I, it's interesting because I, because as my son gets older, I, you know, I, I do think about like, I really do want him to go to college and study something just because I think it's really important to have that in-between land of child life and real life and being with other people going through that. I mean, can you imagine like graduating high school and being like, okay, you're on your own, go for it. No way you need that support. Um, you want to go through that with other people? Um, again, I really think college is about who you are with. Not so much what you're studying. That's why picking your school's important. Cause you want to pick the school. That's going to have the same people. You know, you want to find your people in college. That's what you want. Right. Um, I think that's the biggest takeaway.
Jeff Brown: (01:11:14)
So I would say to go to absolutely go to theater school, just go to some type of school. Don't try to be an actor straight out of the gate, unless you've been doing it already for 10 years. And that's, and that's a weird thing too, because I see how the only chance you can just walk into Hollywood and say, hi, I'd like to try is when you're 10 years old, that's the only time they go. Sure. What do you have? We'll we'll see it. We'll, we'll give you a shot. And as soon as you turn 18, it's like, well, what have you been doing for the past 15 years? How come? Because there's 5,000 other kids over here that already have resumes this long and
Jeff Brown: (01:11:56)
Insane.
Jeff Brown: (01:11:58)
I had that realization when I moved out here and I was like, Oh my God. Cause I looked at the people booking the jobs that I wanted to and I went, Oh, they've got 20 years under their belt at 27.
Jeff Brown: (01:12:11)
Right. That's so crazy. But that's the truth of it. Yeah. Yeah. So how are you, what are you doing now that there's nothing going on or you're doing your own thing? You're writing your own title.
Jeff Brown: (01:12:26)
Yeah. I've been writing, writing a lot. Um, uh, voiceover I've been doing, you know, continuing with voiceover auditions and booking jobs there when I can. Um, and that's it and playing drums every like every day, my day is like, get up, work out, do my voiceover auditions, right. For a couple hours, you know, play drums for an hour. And then dinner time. Like that's pretty much every single day. Um, uh, I really, I really miss the, the, the old, the old world. Um, but yeah, that's, I mean, work production starting to come back here. So auditions are coming back. Commercial auditions are coming back. Um, the ethical auditions are coming back, all that stuff. Uh,
Jeff Brown: (01:13:12)
You've been at the same time, as they're saying that aren't your numbers still real bad.
Jeff Brown: (01:13:17)
Yeah. But, but basically, um, I think that the major deal is that the unions and everyone has come together on the protocols and they've put together protocol sheets, and then they now have a system in place to deal with this, which has opened up the, um, the flood Gates for production to begin again. And I think there's a huge backlog of production that is going to explode, even if the numbers do go up, um, unless we go into a full on shutdown mode. Again, I don't see that production would end because I mean, their procedures are so stringent and so strict.
Jeff Brown: (01:13:59)
Like you have to get tested every day and stuff like that.
Jeff Brown: (01:14:01)
I think every, if not every day, a couple of times a week, there's masks everywhere. There's, you know, everything has, everything has a system, every department, wardrobe, makeup, actors, directors, everyone has this specific system that they must adhere to. Um, my wife actually is working this week and she was like, the stage was so warm because they're keeping the doors open. Whereas normally those soundstages are for reasons, but because she was rehearsing, um, they were keeping the doors. It's like all these weird things like, Oh yeah, I guess that's she had to print out her own script. They wouldn't print out a script, like all these little shifts to bring her own makeup. No, she doesn't have to bring her own makeup, but I guarantee you that the makeup person is very, as it's best for her has a system. Yup. Oh yeah. And everyone's because we all want to work. So everyone's just like fine, whatever we have to do to get through this. We don't want to be out of work anymore. We'll go through whatever hoops we have to, you know, run through. Wow.
Jeff Brown: (01:15:09)
Jeff, thanks. He's awesome for having me. It's so good to see you both. Yeah. I survived theater school. It's an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina bleachy are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable. W R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.