Discipling By Jesus: Recent Episodes
Ernest Prabhakar, Jeff Hubing
The only real answer is Jesus. The only real problem is Sin. The only real work is the Cross. In the end, we only have Him.
Discipling by Jesus (DBJ) is a group "co-devotional" practice for encountering the crucified Christ. By working through His Word & Spirit, Body & Blood we explore greater depths of the Father’s love as we surrender to the Holy Spirit.
"Productive Vulnerability" as the narrative protocol to both unmask our own self-deception and reveal the power of Christ.
This is the redemptive alternative to either withdrawal or control
(as a way to cope with the dysphoria from encountering our mutual brokenness).
Those can be effective in reducing short-term pain,
but fail to confront the underlying brokenness
and are thus toxic to the authenticity required for healthy long-term relationships.
See also: Faith in two syllables
- Axiom 1. We are all broken
- Axiom 2. Christ is the cure
Childing -> Adulting -> Christing (like Jesus)
Is working through "brokenness" (versus information or skill) our greatest challenge?
Ernie struggles with broken audio to explain the joy of sharing/healing our brokenness (aka sin) with Jesus.
Poetry reading: 8/8 Tri-Limerick: Don’t Look Down
https://2transform.us/dbj/
The only real answer is Jesus. The only real problem is Sin. The only real work is the Cross. In the end, we only have Him.
What happens when the law meant to unite us ends up diving us?
Is God calling us to shift from Jehu to Elisha?
# Ernie
- Not wanting to incarnate into other peoples dysfunction
- Do I want to heal people from their brokenness so that I can identify with them? VS
- Am I willing to identify with people in their brokenness so that God can heal us
# Robby
- Jesus, how do I grow closer to You in such a way that Your Spirit most deeply shapes what I want and what I pursue?
- A common tension -- between pursuing the mission and caring for the members -- reflects the feelings among my own family that I “don’t care about them.”
- The most important question for me is “What does Jesus want?”
- My focus tends to then be on how I can pursue what I imagine He wants.
- However this overlooks the reality that the first thing He wants from me is intimacy with me.
# Reframing Offense
"Being versus Feeling Annoyed"
- Objective analysis (of their wrong)
- Self-awareness (of my "blaming" thought cycles)
- Emotional introspection (of the anger/frustration behind those cycles)
- Humble recognition (that my issues intersect with theirs)
- Conscious identification (that we both need the same grace)
How do we balance the tension between:
- Performance: getting the job done
- Conformance: getting along
Precisely by confronting those areas where we are unable to hold that tension,
in order to experience Christ's transformation
https://biblehub.com/luke/9-23.htm
Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
Decenter Civilization
- Civilization as we know it is endemically (widely? intrinsically?) corrupt
- This corruption is manifest in individuals caught up in a systemic web of toxic incentives
- We can't go back to "innocent" societies of autonomous villages
- God wants us to seek something better
What should be our response?
- our goal
- our role
- our soul
Systemic Corruption
- Societies become (imperial) civilizations to provide more of a scarce public good (typically military security vs long-term threats)
- Centralized systems are the easiest way to increase productivity for those scarce goods [also create an umbrella for "boutique" decentralized alternatives]
- Only when systems are sophisticated enough to have an "intent" can we have aligned versus mis-aligned incentives ("corruption")
- We have to go beyond that system to discuss whether such corruption is "evil"
Compare: The Logos Cycle
https://twitter.com/microurbanism/status/1667589489869590530
- Logos defines an identity
- Existence as homeostasis: compressible/durable
-
How local costs create global benefit
-
Sin is violation of that logos
- Without logos there is no sin
- Once there is logos, sin is inevitable
-
Adding new logos to fix the old sin creates complexity that causes more sin
-
To do better, we must crucify the old logos to birth a new one
- The best we can do is to get better at the cycle of crucifixion and new birth
https://www.youtube.com/@datocracy
What is the source of large-scale, structural evil?
Is it endemic to civilization?
Can civilization be reformed, or must it be transformed?
Decenter Civilization
- Civilization as we know it is endemically (intrinsically?) corrupt
- This corruption is manifest in individuals caught up in a systemic web of toxic incentives
- We can't go back to "innocent" societies of autonomous villages
- God wants us to seek something better
What should be our response?
- goal
- role
- soul
My birthday episode, recording from my car in a parking lot. Possibly after too much beer...
Prior conversations
- 2021-11-26 Zoasophy: Beyond Enlightenment w/Elijah Ware (THS YouTube)
- 2021-11-09 Does Religion see Questioning as Doubt? w/Elijah Ware (DBJ podcast, S2 E41)
- 2021-10-30 Zoasophy/Divine Metaphysics: Necessary Anxiety w/Elijah Ware (THS YouTube)
- 2021-10-28 GROMP: Reconciling Perspectives #zoasophywith guest Elijah Ware, Divine Metaphysicist(Twitter @stoosian)
Other references
- Zephyr on Apple Podcasts: Elijah Ware
- (Active) Listening to Part Of Me: Ernie's Two Questions
Luke 9:18-27 (Who is Jesus to Me?)
1 John 1The Incarnation of the Word of Life
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.
Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
https://www.bible.com/bible/100/rom.8.13-14.NASB1995
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.Someone just claimed that a) this is the only verse that explicitly talks about "being led by the Spirit" and b) it is focused primarily on "holiness" rather than "guidance."
This would be a significant shift from how I’ve thought about being Spirit-led. I’m curious whether it matches your understanding or experience!
What if… being led by the Spirit is a good practice, but bad theology, because it takes our focus away from obeying Christ’s commands?
Ernie pushes the importance of loving Jesus with more of our a) strength, b) mind, c) heart and d) soul
What Discipleship Is (and Isn’t)
TC-1d2: Defining Discipleship
Truth Bowl Beta 4: Alternative Models of Education (2019-08-29 Finale)
- What causes divisions among us?
- Is totalitarianism ever part of God's plan?
- Aren't pornography and addictive drugs contrary to "Kingdom Values?"
- Has the mainstream narrative started to squelch alternatives?
- Is it important to restore what we have lost?
- Wouldn't we be better off with a more scientific approach?
References
- Dream: Gun Control (Dr. Ernie)
- Books that bust bubbles (DHH)
- Systemic Racism's Greatest Hits (The Glenn Show)
“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.”Romans 8:28-29 NIV
Shifting from "talking about practices" to "fostering a culture of growing closer to Jesus"
Previous Conversations between Elijah and Ernie
- 10/30/20201 Zoasophy/Divine Metaphysics: Necessary Anxiety (YouTube)
- 11/20/2021 What in the world is God Doing!!!! (Wisdom App)
- 11/26/2021 Zoasophy: Beyond Enlightenment (YouTube)
Bonus: my (indirect) response to Elijah's criticism:
Socrates Repents (An Alternative “Apology”)
Ernie argues the practice of "hearing and obeying Jesus" may be necessary, but not sufficient, for truly "making disciples" of Jesus
https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/product/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-update-revised-edition/
The [other] book is called, “In the Footsteps of Francis and Claire.” It was written by Roch Niemier, published by St. Anthony Messenger Press, ISBN 978-0-66716-793-1.
Ernie and Brent explore, confess, and repent of how their conditioning and reactions trigger each other
http://www.lifeandleadership.com/book-summaries/maxwell-and-parrott-25-ways-to-win-with-people.html
- Mine the Gold of Good Intentions
- Dream: Unmasking (Radically Happy)
- Beyond Personal Freedom (Radical Centrism)
Ernie argues that Satan actually has three plans:
- Plan A is to recruit people to oppose God directly
- Plan B is to subvert those who claim to support God
- Plan C is to lock those two in self-righteous combat with each other
While he may prefer A, and enjoys B, he is perfectly content with C...
- DBJ Agony Edition
- Lame Man John 5:2-9
- None is Good but God Mark 10:18
- Who appointed me a judge Luke 12:13-15
- General Grievous (Star Wars)
- Introducing the Generalized Kegan Maturity Model (GKMM)
- Romans 8:28-29
And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
How can we streamline DBJ to more efficiently engage people's vulnerable thoughts and feelings?
References
- Previously on the DJB Podcast: Finding Resonance (with Emiliana)
- A Slight Change of Plans: A Black Musician Takes on the KKK (Daryl Davis on Pushkin.fm)
- Discipling by Jesus, coming June 19th: Reconciling Redeemers
- Playlist DBJ-SHON: Shalome's Honor
Ernie and Ross wrestle with how God is reshaping them through suffering with those they love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mPtJHLSRBk
"He loves you just the way you are today,
But much too much to let you stay that way,
And once He has changed your heart
from what you were before,
He still won't love you one bit more."
Robby shares how Janet's DBJ shed new light on how Martha might see Jesus more clearly than Mary
Janet shares her struggles, with help from Robby, to integrate supporting content into her session of DBJ while keeping the focus on Jesus
Robby and Ernie explore how DBJ is shifting their perspectives on the work to be done, and vice versa
Ernie propose to Robby than they pivot from perfecting a format to co-founding a movement
Success Criteria:
Through your encouragement, questions, conversations and prayers, you have nudged me towards a growing closeness to Jesus. So that in my regular moments of life, he is more present and interacting.
1 Peter 4:10
Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God's grace in its various forms.
Ernie and Robby rejoice on the strong turnout and powerful connections from the first two sessions
New Crew member Brent Lindquist joins to learn how DBJ differs from traditional small groups, including the importance of communion
After a successful first pilot of "Discipling by Jesus", Ernie and Robby touch base to see if they are on the same page about what should happen next, and how best to position it. Robby suggests a focus on 'hearing and following Jesus", but Ernie propose "experience and respond to Jesus" as broader and more relational.
Robby shares his passion for ensuring movements are reaching people where they are -- especially their families -- rather than pulling them into an entirely new context. Ernie also agrees with the need for "redemptive incarnation," but prefers to make a family focus "exemplary" rather than "normative." He also talks about the initial DBJ workshop as onboarding onto a "missional social network," a platform where we build trust by seeing how people let Jesus deal with their weaknesses (not just their strengths).
References
- Automated Transcript (UberConference)
- IGWET.com: a fully open platform for empowering Transformational Communities that seek to create positive change in the world
- The Great Reset
Does Grace exist so we can fulfill the Law? Or does the Law exist to show us our need for Grace?
Is our greatest work to love the poor? Or simply to love Jesus? Are they ultimately the same? If so, does it matter which order?
As leaders, is our primary job to enroll followers in our vision? Expand our vision to incorporate theirs? Point them to Jesus? Help them find their own vision?
Ernie and Ted continue their quest to find common ground in loving more like Jesus, as they look towards a possible Jubilee Season of The Great Reset.
References
- Automated Transcript
- The Croods: A New Age
- Matthew 25
- Beyond Spiritual Fathering
- The Send (The Call)
- Discipling by Jesus
- First Love Design Summit
In this phone call recorded shortly before last Friday's "Finale" of The Great Reset, Eric questions Ernie about why he's ending The Great Reset, and what comes next.
Ernie argues that his "original sin" while co-founding The Great Reset was focusing on Ambition and Technique. While not bad in themselves, this led incurably to Arrogance and Law, rather than Humility and Grace. He believes the only solution is to start over (after a 3 week hiatus) with Something Different centered on the cross of Christ.
References
- Automated Transcript (UberConference)
- Bounded Sets versus Centered Sets (Western Seminary)
To start with, David and Ernie both agree that The Great Reset is:
- Too dominated by Ernie
- Lacks a clear sense of purpose
- Lacks consistency of format
- Lacks continuity of topics
The disagreement started when Ernie explained that this Friday (15 Jan 2021) is THE Finale of The Great Reset, and what came after would be Something Different. While Ernie saw this as an opportunity to re-found The Great Reset in a more inclusive and coherent fashion, David saw it as Ernie simply doing more of the same.
Perhaps surprisingly, David felt that this wasn't due to any sin on Ernie's part, but a simple matter of technique that should be easy for Ernie to fix. Ernie suggested two alternative interpretations, neither of which David liked very much:
- Ernie is simply incapable of making the changes required
- David is the one whose perspective is distorted by sin
After much wrangling about the history of their (and Bill's) relationships, Ernie latched on David's comment about wanting Ernie to share (not just acknowledge) David's perspective. Ernie claimed this made him feel David was trying to 'fix' him, not merely share constructive feedback and criticism. David apologized, and Ernie forgave him.
While they may not have resolved much of anything, they at least ended by praying for and affirming each other. Maybe next time, they should start there...
References
- Automated Transcript (UberConference)
- TGR-S6E7: Jubilee (The Great Reset)
- Christ-like Love (Twitter)
Ted and Ernie record what may be their last episode of The Great Reset podcast, as they plan for the finale on January 15th.
When Ted asks Ernie about working together afterwards on Something Different, Ernie expresses concern over what he perceived as Ted's dismissiveness of his feelings. This was aggravated (if not caused) by Ted not responding to a heartfelt email Ernie has shared over Christmas; which they just discovered Ted had not even seen!
In the end, Ernie shared his perspective on what he felt it would look like for Ted to love him more like Jesus:
- See him as he is, including his pain and sin
- Identity with him, especially his sin
- Invite him to come the cross to overcome that sin
Ernie acknowledged that this was a lot to ask, but Ted agreed that this was what he had sign-up for with Jesus.
Will this be enough to carry them beyond the end of The Great Reset? Watch this podcast feed for updates!
References
- Automated Transcript
David and Ernie appear to agree with the statement that "the problem is sin, and the cure is Jesus" -- but seem unable to agree about what those words mean, or even whether or not they agree.
David affirms how Ernie is fantastic at handling negative feedback, but confused why he appears incapable of incorporating constructive suggestions.
Ernie admires David's commitment and forthrightness, but wonders why he is focused on pointing out wrongs rather than providing grace.
Ernie pitches David on the idea of coming together around communion for the Season Finale. David likes the idea in theory, especially about getting right with one another before partaking of the Body of Christ, but is skeptical in practice because it is often used to merely paper over differences.
Robby and Ernie discuss:
- Possible limits to simply hearing and obeying Jesus
- Whether DBS emphasizes Law (obedience) at the expense of Grace (relationship)
- Whether there is a "performative" act that constitutes being a Christian (e.g., repentance, communion)
- The difference between "joining with Jesus in his work" (as servants, focused on productivity) versus "joining with Jesus through His work" (as friends or family, focused on intimacy)
- How "to seek and save that which is lost" might apply both internally and externally
- The end of The Great Reset
References
- Automated Transcript
To escape from a confused chat thread, David rephrased three concerns he had about Ernie's proposed topic for this coming Tuesday (1/5/2021) on The Great Reset:
- It does not provide continuity, or address open problems
- Ernie seems to be placing all the responsibility on David, rather than sharing it
- The goal should be to model (live out) discipleship, and Ernie's proposal doesn't seem to accomplish what his proposal attempted, i.e. establishing a baseline he can use to hold people's feet to the fire (and vice versa)
Ernie clarified that he did intend to address #1, apologized for #2, and expressed curiosity about how #3 interacted with what he would present. David then worried that Ernie was placing too much pressure on himself by attempting to address all of that!. Ernie blithely reassured him that this is how he does his best work -- by raising expectations he does yet know how to fulfill!
Will this work? Or come back to bite him? Stay tuned to find out!
References
- Automated Transcript (plus Chat Thread)
- Divided by a Common Language
Robby contacted Ernie to ensure he hadn't hurt his feelings during Tuesday's The Great Reset. He had agreed with Janet that he too would leave the group if it was true that Ernie was espousing non-scriptural foundations, but didn't think that was the case.
Ernie admitted that he had partly called out Robby's statement for dramatic effect; the emotional pain was minimal (and addressed). However, he would have preferred Robby to validate Janet's emotions without necessarily endorsing her reasoning (about leaving), even if he disagreed with her facts.
Surprisingly, Robby realized that he had actually lied in that statement. In reality he would not have left the group under such circumstances. However, he unconsciously said whatever seemed necessary to reduce tensions (as he had been trained to do by his family of origin).
This led to a discussion of abjection: the instinctual response to reject what is "not-self." Ernie's claimed this was behind Janet's desire to leave the group, Robby's subconscious attempts to reduce conflict, and even his conscious mind's rejection of the part of himself that lies to avoid conflict. Ernie suggested "communion" as the opposite of abjection, though they both identified weaknesses with that word.
This tied into a larger critique Ernie had of Robby's model of "hearing and following Jesus." While that is clearly a good thing, Ernie pointed out that the disciples (and many others) clearly heard and followed Jesus for three years, yet still fell away at the cross (except for John). He suggested the stronger term "Jesus lover", reflecting Jesus' challenge in John 21:15-17 for Peter to "love" (identify with, even in suffering) rather than merely "like" (enjoy for the sake of benefits) him.
He ended by arguing that in the end, the only thing that matters is relationships. And in particular, that if we focus in the right way on improving our relationship with our "selves", we will open ourselves to not just hear Jesus more clearly, but become a conduit of His grace to all our other relationships.
References
- Automated Transcript
- Immanuel Approach
- Abjection (Julia Kristeva)
- Being as Communion (John Zizioulas)
- Prelude to Reconciliation (Type 1 and 2)
"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice." -- John 10:3-4 (NKJV)"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." -- John 10:27
After an extended period of reconciliation, Steve and Ernie return to discuss questions of discipleship.
Ernie proposes the alternate term "spiritual fathering" to describe the relationship of Paul with Timothy. He affirms that this kind of authority-based model, built around implicit trust in the "father figure," is essential for new believers. However, he argues that:
- A group of mature believers like The Great Reset wouldn't accept an authority like that
- When it doesn't work, we blame individuals rather than the model
- When it does work, it is hard for people to transcend the limitations of the father figure
Steve was wiling to concede those points, but didn't see that as sufficient motivation for pursuing a new model. For his part, Ernie struggled to articulate what exactly he would do differently.
Will they be able to find an answer? Does it even matter?
References
- Automated Transcript
David was surprised that Ernie was so upbeat about Tuesday's conversation with Janet. Perhaps this is because Ernie was primarily hurt by Janet appearing to withdraw from the group relationship, then reaffirming that relationship (and Ernie's emotions) on Tuesday. David was less optimistic, because Ernie and Janet had not appeared to reach a common understanding, which implied such problems were likely to recur.
This was poignant for David because he felt frustrated in his attempt to encourage Janet to reconcile. Waiting until Ernie finished also did not seem a viable option, since he was scheduled to work with Janet on Apples of Gold.
When Ernie suggested David set those feelings aside, this led to an extended discussion of compartmentalization: whether there were healthy or unhealthy ways to do that, and how that related to authenticity. David shared his ongoing debate with Bill about whether churches are more like train-wrecks or ship-wrecks. Ernie suggested that churches are slightly better at showing grace for personal addictions (shipwrecks) than relational dysfunction (train-wrecks).
Stay tuned to find out if The Great Reset will be train-wrecks all the way down, or we might find a way out through the cross.
References
- Automated Transcript
- HeartSync Ministries
- Internal Family Systems
- Jungian Psychology
After a bruising (if surprisingly productive) episode last Tuesday, David shares frustrations about his relationship with Bill. He also has to remind Ernie that the reason he (David) didn't welcome Ernie's input was that Ernie didn't seem interested in understanding David. Ernie conceded the point, but argued it was wrong for David to bring Bill up if he didn't want Ernie's help. David immediately agreed, apologized and confessed.
[They had initially agreed to remove the offending section, but later decided to show it to Bill first. He surprisingly agreed to publish it, but wanted to discuss David's characterization of Bill's motives. They ended up resolving, or at least identifying, their core issues, and are in a much better place. Which will no doubt make for a much less stressful Christmas dinner!]
David then suggested a model for why we had trouble understanding each other: we are both original thinkers, and have therefore developed heuristics for dealing with "conventional" thinkers -- which backfire when used on each other! Ernie agreed, but felt the solution was to create shared experiences we could point to in order to develop a new vocabulary. David argue Ernie had already tried that, and that a better route was to find some common priors and extrapolate from those. Ernie was doubtful, but agreed to let David try next week, and they could alternate after that.
References
- Automated Transcript
- Two and a Half Men (IMDB)
- Shaka, When the Walls Fell (Star Trek: The Next Generation)
Ernie is surprised to discover that David:
- Has not been truly engaged with The Great Reset during Season 6
- Does not think Ernie shares his belief that The Great Reset should focus on relationships
- Feels obligated to conform to Ernie's values, as owner of the group
(David, for his part, was surprised that this wasn't obvious to Ernie).
Much of this seems to stem from Ernie's perspective that he is a "Steward" of the group. As such, his responsibility is not to impose his values, but create a safe space for everyone to express their values to better reflect Jesus' values.
This created a conflict in Season 5, when Ernie shut down David's questioning of Bill. Ernie chose "create a safe space" over David's "express his values."
Was that a false choice? Could Ernie have done better? Even if not, what should be done now?
Stay tuned for next Tuesday, to see if the group can help them find a better way forward.
- Automated Transcript
Ernie and David debrief The Great Reset (12/7). Should we primarily focus on being Discipled by Scripture? Or should we be figuring out a way to articulate and implement the vision of our Producer, Ted Hahs? Whose vision really counts, anyway? Will Bill ever come back? And what would it take for David to feel this has all been worth it?
References
- Automated Transcript (UberConference)
- What are User Stories? (Agile Alliance)
- The Little Prince (Antoine de Saint Exupery)
- Genius versus Crackpot (Twitter)
In this powerful follow-on to last Tuesday's episode of The Great Reset, Janet shares about the trauma she experienced as a child, and the struggle she faces between expressing her anger and trying to be "perfect." In particular, she confesses a deep desire to slap whoever dissed her, rather than having to show them compassion.
Ernie suggested naming that part of herself "Slappy", and asking what it wants -- and where it came from. Janet shared how she was required to be silent whenever she witnessed abuse at home, lest she make things worse. More, she was explicitly trained to either lie or freeze up when invited to share unpleasant truths.
Ernie encouraged Janet to visit a place where she had felt close to God, and invite Slappy to encounter Jesus there. Janet chose a tree she used to climb at Summer Bible Camp. Slappy, true to its name, just started slapping Jesus, over and over again. Jesus just stood there with smile on His face until Slappy was all tired out. Then Ernie suggested He would say: "Thank you [for being honest]. Now come, and follow me."
References
- Automated Transcript
- Inner Healing Movement
- Parts of Personality
- Immanuel Approach
- HeartSync Ministries
David and Ernie both enjoyed Tuesday's episode of The Great Reset, but not in the same way. Ernie saw it as encouraging progress towards the group learning how to "Love More Like Jesus." But while David considered it a positive experience, he did not see it as any sort of real progress. He felt it was more like a random walk. Ernie conceded the apparent randomness, but claimed even that can generate forward progress, with the right filter (a la Maxwell's daemon).
To clarify his thinking, David claimed that relational problems are like speed bumps: there is usually one difficult part, after which it is "green pastures" (until the next bump). Some of these are minor problems that a "mature adult" can easily get over (or not even notice), whereas others are extremely difficult. That is why he didn't see Tuesday's call as progress: while we didn't do anything "wrong", we haven't yet overcome the truly hard part necessary to bring reconciliation.
Put another way, truly challenging speed bumps require a "miracle" to overcome. He has seen unexpected miracles like that in the group (e.g., Steve speaking up, Ernie submitting to criticism), but this Tuesday's encounter wasn't sufficient.
Ernie liked many aspects of David's framework, but wondered why David didn't seem particularly curious about Ernie's framework. David countered that he was in fact very curious about what was going on inside Ernie's head. However, it seemed obvious to him that Ernie's framework was (or at least should be) basically the same as his, since they were built around the same values.
Ernie countered by attempting to draw a distinction between "validity" and "effectiveness": multiple models may be equally valid (in the sense of well-formed), but differ greatly in how and where they are useful. David disagreed with that use of the word 'valid' -- but Ernie had to run off to a meeting, so they left with that unresolved.
References
- Automated Transcript
- Elephant Listening (The Great Reset, S6E1)
- Random Walk
- Maxwell's Daemon
- Activation Energy
- What are Leading and Lagging Indicators?
- Well-Formed Document
After several weeks of intense conversations, David and Ernie find themselves at loose ends. Ted has not only taken on the Producer role (with David as Director and Ernie as Writer), but proposed a new format to experiment with in Season 6. That, plus a relatively uneventful Season Finale, means that the Dynamic Duo have nothing urgent to argue about.
Rather that quit early, they take up David's suggestion to simply share about their lives. Ernie shares about his COVID utopia of being able to stay home with his family rather than driving 2.5 hours a day for school and work. David expresses his gratitude at spending Thanksgiving with Bill and Irene after an emotionally challenging November.
While there are still important and difficult questions that will eventually need to be addressed, perhaps this is an appropriate time to simply appreciate one another as human beings rather than focus on what divides us. Happy Thanksgiving!
References
- Automated Transcript
- TGR-S5E7 Jobs to Be Done
- Thanksgiving Special (The Great Reset, S5E7)
- "We are all losers" (Guardians of the Galaxy)
Ernie proposes a structure for The Great Reset with Ted as Producer, David as Director, and Ernie as the Writer. Unfortunately, David is not impressed with the part Ernie has written for him on the coming Tuesday. Ernie is frustrated that David isn't onboard with his creative vision. And everything is complicated by the unresolved questions from last week.
How will Ted make sense of it all? And what will they finally end up doing?
References
- Automated Transcript
- Episode 27: A Spiritual Issue, Part 1
- Episode 28: I Don't Understand (A Spiritual Issue, Part 2)
- TGR-S5E7 Jobs to Be Done
- Thanksgiving Special (The Great Reset, S5E7)
After 20 minutes of chatting and context, David and Ernie resume their discussion from Part 1 on Christ-like leadership, this time with Janet acting as moderator. The goal was not so much to reach agreement, but help them understand why exactly they disagreed.
While the conversation was often passionate and occasionally blunt, both parties expressed sincere appreciation for the other's sincerity, thoughtfulness, and commitment to working things out.
The dialogue covered some heavy ground, including the relationship between power and authority, the good and bad senses of "justifying sin", and whether it is fair to say Christ "fell on his sword" for the sins of others.
In the end, David summed it best with a honest, heartfelt acknowledgement that he still didn't understand. The other two participants were able to agree with that, and affirm their desire to keep walking through that lack of understanding together.
This week Ernie turns the tables and offers up a critique of David's style of leadership. David defends his approach based on its effectiveness, and the fact that he doesn't find Ernie's alternatives particularly compelling. This seems to mark the end of their two-week experiment of David leading the meetings, especially given how Ernie overrode David's decision to call out Bill's negativity last Tuesday.
In a surprise twist, though, Ernie invoked Matthew 18 and suggested they bring in Janet to mediate. David objected to characterizing their disagreement as "sin". Ernie acknowledged that most people didn't share his positive view of sin, but suggested (and David accepted) labeling it a "spiritual" issue -- to distinguish from a problem to be solved via merely human efforts.
Stay tuned to find out what happens next!
In this wide-ranging conversion, Ernie and Janet touch on:
- The upside and downside of having powerful mental frameworks
- Apples of Gold's Seeker/Helper model
- Concerns vs Needs
- Design vs Training
- Studying vs Assimilating Scripture
References
- Automated Transcript
- Apples of Gold (Hope and Change for Humpty Dumpty)
- There is no User Error, only Bad Design (Harry Stevens)
- What the Bible says about Assimilation/ Feeding Process (BibleTools)
After a long and winding road, David and Ernie were able to affirm:
- The most important thing is Loving More Like Jesus
- The next important thing is tools to help us Love More Like Jesus
- There aren't any great answers for what will do that
- The best way to develop such tools is iterating around Revelation, Reason, and Experience
Ernie then shared his belief that hierarchical authority structures are fatally flawed because they discourage the very authenticity and humility necessary for growing in love. David conceded those problems, but challenged Ernie's exclusive focus on non-hierarchical alternatives. Surprisingly, Ernie conceded the point, perhaps because he was excited about exploring a new model (building on David's moderation last week), and didn't really care whether it was hierarchical or not.
In this model:
- Ted is the Host, providing the Zoom and YouTube, plus the intro)
- Ernie is the Creative, curating the content and shaping topics
- David is the Moderator, ensuring everyone is heard and proposing topics
Intriguingly, this resembles the sort of Test-Driven Development both Ernie and David practice with software. And created a context where they were able to mutually affirm each other's value in this journey.
References
- Automated Transcript
- The Great Reset (S5E5)
- NP-Completeness (Wikipedia)
As a follow-on to yesterday's The Great Reset (and preparation for next week's), Ernie asked about Ted's concerns, which seemed to mirror those that Steve had. Ted identified two things that concerned him about Ernie, which he was surprised that Ernie didn't already see:
- How defensively Ernie reacted when Steve rebuked him
- Ernie's negativity towards authority
For the first, Ernie was initially surprised that Ted saw his reaction as defensive. Upon reflection, Ernie granted that it would have been better if he had simply acknowledged Steve's strong feelings and asked for clarification, rather than demanding follow-through. By the same token, though, Ernie pointed out Ted could have been more compassionate towards Ernie, rather than "piling on" (which Ted conceded).
For the second, Ernie validating Ted's concerns around issues of authority. However, he wanted to distinguish between his:
- Personal belief in (and practice of) submission to authority
- Philosophical critique of hierarchical authority systems
- Emotional reactions (not fully processed) towards those systems
One common thread in all these was the human desire to have our views validated, especially when we feel devalued. Ted acknowledged that part of his frustration with Ernie was that he had tried to raise this issue before, and felt Ernie blew him off. Ernie appreciated that, but pointed that it led him to make essentially the same mistake he accused Ernie of.
The point wasn't to cast blame, but to highlight how pervasive and subtle is the temptation to point out others flaws while overlooking our own, rather than coming alongside others in humility to help them do better. Ernie argued this is the main reason the world hates the church, because we expose their shame while hiding from our own. He then suggested that being able to cure ourselves of this tendency would be a huge step toward fulfilling Ted's passion to see "the Earth filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." (Habbakuk 2:14)
References
- Automated Transcript (and iMessage followup)
- ValueStorming S5E1 (The Great Reset)
- Better Next Time S5E5 (The Great Reset)
- Matthew 23:1-4 (Bible Gateway)
- Obria Medical Clinics (Real Options)
Ernie and Bill continue processing last week's discussion on The Great Reset. Ernie starts by confessing that he was so focused on working through his own reaction that he was blind to the fears and questions that many others in the group also had. Bill shares his own frustration that people seemed concerned about their own needs rather than those of the group.
Ernie pointed out that a lot of this is due to "WEIRD" culture (Western Educated Industrialized Rich Democracies), and the challenge is to evangelize (and redeem) that culture without first requiring people to give up those cultural norms. In particular, how do we create space for self-expression and questioning authority while still challenging people to live all out for Jesus and others?
References
- Automated Transcript
- S5E1 "ValueStorming" (The Great Reset)
- S5E4 "Lost Sheep" (The Great Reset)
- WEIRD societies
Ernie and Janet wrestle with the strong (if perhaps metaphorical) language Jesus uses about the dangers of human titles and authority. What is He trying to warn us against? Have we accidentally reinvented the systems Jesus condemned? And even if we agree with Him, how do we un-train ourselves from all the worldly habits we have acquired?
References
- Automated Transcript
- Matthew 23
At the end of this season's Episode 4 of "The Great Reset", David suggested the group dedicate time to processing The Incident from Episode 1. They both agree it would be ideal if Steve could be part of that. But even if not, Ernie acknowledged that there are larger issues that the group needs to discuss. And that David was right that we owe it to the group to acknowledge their concerns, rather than putting them off indefinitely.
However, Ernie admitted that part of his reluctance was that he didn't know how to host a frank yet constructive conversation if Steve wasn't present. David replied that if he were in charge, he'd start by sharing a perspective that defended each of the participants, even at the cost of consistency, in order to set the right tone.
Ernie immediately jumped on this to insist David take charge of next week's meeting. David was initially reluctant to commit to this, for a variety of reasons. Eventually he conceded that if we criticize someone, we should follow through with showing them how to do better. His last qualm was that he wanted to hear from Ted (who wasn't there at the end).
References
- Automated Transcript
- TGR Code of Conduct
Robby shares his evolving perspective on key terms for how we related to Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Scripture:
- follow
- apply
- obey
- abide
- figure out
References
- Automated Transcript
- Discipled by Scripture
- Pirate's Code (Disney Wiki)
- John 21:17 (TPT)
- John 21:17 (Interlinear)
This week Ernie and David go around and around on whether:
- To be worried about the recent drop-off in attendance on The Great Reset
- We need an explicit code of conduct
- It is more dangerous to study scripture with or without an agenda
- "Love More Like Jesus" is a sufficient statement of purpose
- Ernie is merely inarticulate or deliberately deceptive about his goals
David finally agreed to put that last point to the test by identifying "what your secret cows are, put them up as suggestions for the group, then watch you try to deny them." Or at least let us know if he decides not to follow through on that.
References
- Automated Transcript
- TGR-S4E7 Loving More Like Jesus
- Code of Conduct (Contributor Covenant)
- Response to "man cannot be trusted with the government of himself" (Thomas Jefferson)
- TGR Code of Conduct (new)
Ernie leads off by asking his three favorite questions:
- What do you want
- What do you fear
- What price are you wiling to pay
Janet's chief desire is to Love More Like Jesus (or equivalently to draw closer to Him). Her fear is self-sabotage, and she is willing to pay the price of discipline to overcome that.
This led to an extended discussion on the apparent necessity of suffering for spiritual (and emotional) maturity. They identified three types of suffering (circumstantial, voluntary, and inflicted), as well as how those categories sometimes blur as we mature.
We wrap with Janet sharing her challenges with staying productive during this season. That nagging voice in our head can be a useful taskmaster, but ultimately (like the Law) we want to replace it with a nurture teacher. Perhaps next episode we can figure out how to be, have, and create more teachers like that...
References
- Automated Transcript
- Ernie's Rules of War
- C.S. Lewis on Pain
In his latest attempt to explain his vision of The Great Reset, Ernie lists three ways his vision differs from monastic (and by implication evangelical) spirituality:
- Decentralized vs Hierarchical
- Incarnate vs Extractive
- Practice vs Knowledge
David was very helpful in teasing out shared definition of words, to the point where they seemed to reach at least a basic level of understanding. Is this stable enough to form a foundation for future discussions? Stay tuned to find out!
References
- Automated Transcript
- Benedectine Order
- The Rule of Ernest the Sinner
Ernie is joined by two old friends from his Pasadena days who work in missions. They are both enthusiastic proponents and practitioners of Discovery Bible Study (DBS). DBS has been used successfully with hundreds of disciple-making movements, although (at least until recently) they have not had much success in a Western context.
Could this be the tool The Great Reset needs for "vulnerably encountering Jesus by obeying Scripture together?" Is this the tool Jesus wants to use to free us from Western intellectualism so we can read with our heart, soul, and strength, not just our mind? What will it take to get the rest of The Great Reset on board?
Stay tuned to find out!
Resources
- Automated Transcript
- Last Tuesday's The Great Reset (ValueStorming)
- Discovery Bible Study
- Disciple-making movements
- WEIRD: Western, Educated, Industriaized, Rich, Democratic
Ernie and David both share their excitement at the strong emotion shared during last week's episode of The Great Reset, though Ernie was more upbeat in his assessment of how well the group did (and would) handle the conflict. David reiterated his concern that both the conflict itself, and the difficulty the group has handling it, stem from a lack of clarity around the group's purpose.
After going around and around about the supposed difficulty of defining novel relational experiences, David joked that he could do better. When Ernie jumped on that, he conceded that it would be a lot of effort to get everyone on board. Instead, he offered to put together a draft combining elements we agreed on with traditional church mission statements, as a starting point for the two of us to discuss further.
Stay tuned to find out how it works out!
Resources
- Automated Transcript
- Last week's Great Reset: ValueStorming
- Mission Statement (Echo Church)
Ernie and Janet review recent discussions with The Great Reset, and Janet shares how transformational Scripture has been in her own life. Ernie confesses his uncertainty how to study the Bible in a way that leads to obedience, rather than mere knowledge. Janet pitches the Bible Project, which leads to a discussion of the ongoing transition from static linear curriculum to adaptive ad-hoc feeds.
How will this play out on Season 5 of The Great Reset? Stay tuned to find out!
Resources
- Automated Transcript
- Romans 12:1-2
- The Bible Project
- Walk through the Bible
- Bible Storying
Ernie and David finally manage to articulate a problem that they both care deeply about: helping larger groups of Jesus-followers practice the type of authenticity and accountability usually only seen in intimate fellowship groups. David wonders if this is hard because leaders see it as their job to preserve the integrity of the institution. He sees this as something requiring generational change, whereas Ernie claims this requires more structural reformation.
Can they build on this insight to come up with a Grand Solution for The Great Reset that will satisfy Ted? Or will they get mired down intheir inability to agree on basic terms. Come back next week to find out!
Resources
- Automated Transcript
- TGR-S4E7 Loving More Like Jesus
- Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy
Janet and Ernie discuss her attempts to adapt Dr. Gary Sweeten's Apples of Gold relational training during Season 4 of The Great Reset. They both agreed it was an incredible learning experience, but Ernie felt that one of the key learnings was that the "education" paradigm does not work well for a peer group of adults. Instead, he advocated re-integrating content around concrete problems the "user" cares about, rather than trying to aggregate users around a pre-defined curriculum.
References
- Automated Transcript
- Relational Practice (TGR-S4E3)
- FishBowl Dialogue (DJ+EP)
- Edutainment (Wikipedia)
- The Bible Project (Videos)
- TedEd (Youtube Channel)
- A Critical Review of Constructivist Theory and the Emergence of Constructionism (American Research Journal of Humanities and Social Sciences)
- Jobs to be Done in the Education Industry (JTBD Radio)
HeartSync is a powerful ministry that helps people bring their deepest pain into a transformational encounter with the person of Jesus Christ. Steve joins Ernie to discuss how he discovered HeartSync while writing his book, and how this fuels their shared passion for seeing Jesus bring unity to a fragmented world.
- Automated Transcript
- Seven Mountains (Generals International)
- Renewal Christian Counseling Center (Steve Fair)
- Journey into the Divided Heart Book (Amazon)
- HeartSync Ministries (Father Andrew Miller)
- Morningstar Ministries (Rick Joyner)
Bill and Ernie geek about how JavaScript's prototypical style of object inheritance is more adaptive and flexible than class-based inheritance (even if ECMAScript 6 gives in on that point). What would it take to move The Great Reset, and civilization, in that same non-hierarchical direction?
Ernie shares the "inconvenient truth" he has been wrestling with: Is caste, and seeking an advantage for our children, at the root of systemic racism? Are all our Christian institutions founded on the belief that "there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval?"
And if that is true, what path do we have to walk in order to bring the Body of Christ to repentance and unity? And can we do it without insisting on confession?
References
- It's More Than Racism: Isabel Wilkerson Explains America's 'Caste' System
- The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy
Ernie and Ted reflect on how The Great Reset is progressing against its (admittedly audacious) goal of ushering in the millennium, by prototyping new structures for bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth. Can we pull off a scalable Silicon Valley miracle through the power of the Holy Spirit, and good design?
References
- Automated Transcript
- TGR-S3E6: Re-Cognition of Discipleship
- Decentralized Networks
-
DecenterCivilization
- Permissionless Innovation
While debriefing on Steven McGgriff's sermon on his African-American heritage, Ernie was:
Struck by how much a) "white supremacy" is about cultural domination, not just race, b) when part of the dominant culture, we don't notice how much our heritage shapes our identity away from Christ, and c) class can be just as deadly a distortion as race, but (in America) is far less visible.Eric responded:
As a missionary I think aspects of culture can be shared generously with other cultures; not for domination. For example: antibiotics, university education, hospitals, better nutrition and sanitation technology. These are now in every country, not through the efforts of the exploiters, but through the efforts of 20th-century Christian missionaries, and now t because of “cultural domination,” but because of “cultural generosity.” They as Christians found themselves in possession of valuable and helpful things, which they naturally shared with their fellow human beings in less developed countries. There’s no going over there to repo those universities and hospitals, much less the knowledge and education that have been given away; they are gifts that were given as part and parcel of the Good News. This got Ernie all fired up, since he is explicitly targeting "universities and hospitals" as part of his efforts to #DecenterCivilization. They wisely agreed to move from chat onto a phone call, and kindly agreed to record it for our benefit.
- Automated Transcript
- Being as Communion: Studies in Personhood and the Church (John Zizioulas)
Bill shares his long-running frustration that most people and churches don't seem to ever seriously consider Paul's teaching in Romans 15:14:
I am fully convinced, my dear brothers and sisters, that you are full of goodness. You know these things so well you can teach each other all about them.In particular, he felt that we spend too much time focusing on "better leaders" as the solution for all our problems, versus at least trying to explore superior "leaderless" models.
Ernie challenged Bill to come up with a clearer critique that acknowledged that a) we are all dependent on one another, and b) we all have different roles and responsibilities within the Body of Christ. In particular, we need someone to take responsibility for the success of the context as a whole, not just their individual contribution.
Bill clarified that his real concern is that we get so caught up in roles and titles -- and the people who hold them -- that we lose sight of the larger purpose. This led to a helpful distinction between "healthy" groups where the roles and responsibilities line up with the stated purpose, and "toxic" groups where they do not.
We discussed our experience with models of shared leadership, program managers, and "Designated Responsible Individuals" at Apple. We eventually converged on the term Stewardship to describe having authority over a particular domain, perhaps even individuals, but explicitly accountable for serving a larger goal.
The larger problem, we both agreed, is that existing structures are explicitly designed to hide the shame of their leaders; though was willing to concede that was necessary for human institutions to survive. Which implies the great challenge before us is to demonstrate that it is possible to flourish with Christ as the center, and all of us owning our shame before Him through the cross -- while still doing what needs to be done.
https://2transform.us/2020/07/28/tgr-s3e4-systemic-redemption/
S3E4 was an unusually challenging episode, as we seemed unable to agree even on the appropriate terminology for what we were discussed. Ernie shared how a big part of our "experiment in public discipleship" is trying to find a middle path between "top-down bible teaching" and "unstructured social club." This arguably was a good example of having gone too far in the "unstructured" direction, and thus provides a great opportunity to clarify what we are about.
The most common request we have had is to move beyond talking to start working on something concrete. Ted shared his lifelong passion for helping "everyday" people see themselves as what we now call "Strategic Indigenous Missionaries." Ernie suggested we focus on "modeling relational practices for changing the world."
There were many ideas for helping people turn their God-given passions into viable Kingdom businesses. The challenge is coming up with something that both a) addressed why people came, even if they weren't 100% convinced yet, and b) could scale up to make a meaningful dent in the enormous scale of the crisis facing the body of Christ.
Any suggestions?
Ted and Ernie reflect on the raw authenticity of Season 1 and explore what is the right way pray for miracles. Can anything of practical value be accomplished in a one hour Zoom call? Is praying for urgent requests useful for people who might watch it on YouTube much later? How do we avoid getting bogged down in merely intellectual speculation?
This conversation took place after Season 2 of The Great Reset, where our discussion on Education was overshadowed by the killing of George Floyd. We both agree that systemic racism is a huge problem. But does that guarantee that the proposed political reforms will solve it? Or might they unintentionally make things worse for large swaths of the population, as arguably happened with previous reforms?
Ernie proposed Steven co-construct a spinoff of The Great Reset to provide a safe place to ask and attempt to answer these hard questions; ideally with a man from a more 'traditional' African-American background.
References
- The Great Reset: Education
- Online Reconciliation Circles
This episode was inspired by an energetic chat thread during a sermon from #Mosaic #ErwinMcManus #YouBelongHere:
THE POWER OF INFLUENCE - The Path To Inner Peace | Erwin McManus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdTQX249mm8
McManus challenged us to not worry about status or position: if we do what God puts in our hearts, He will provide the necessary resources.
This led to a discussion of Steve's desire ("need") to find a stable job in higher education, and Ernie's suggestion he "turn pro" with his desire to mentor young people in following Jesus Christ.
References
- Lean Startup
- Minimum Viable Product
- How Coronavirus Will Disrupt Future Colleges & Universities
This discussion took place soon after Steven joined The Great Reset YouTube channel, on Episode 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HhtfcR0E4Q&list=PLhywephDDhwY5XntaBDQDDDrR_m9ULNJV&index=3
The episode ends abruptly because -- during one of Ernie's monologues -- Steven's phone literally overheated so much, and crashed so hard, he literally had to place it in the freezer to cool it down.
References
- COVID-19 Pandemic
- Rule of St Benedict
- Monastic schools
- René Girard (mimetic desire)