Misadventures in Digital Marketing: Recent Episodes
Michael Loban & Neil Hoyne
Want to learn how to do digital right? Join hosts Michael Loban and Neil Hoyne as they interview expert marketers and discuss all of the things that can and do go wrong with digital marketing. Follow along to learn from others' digital marketing misadventures.
Over the past few months, Michael has had a lot of questions about new regulations such as CCPA and GDPR. He wanted to invite someone on the podcast who is knowledgeable about the effects they can have on business, so Kristina Podnar joins him in this episode. She is a digital policy innovator, working with some of the most high-profile companies in the world over the past two decades.
The intersection of personalization and privacy certainly does exist, but Kristina believes that it’s different for every user. She reveals what the safest approach for companies to take towards personalization is, which involves creating a strong partnership with the user.
Michael and Kristina both think it’s important to explain digital privacy to children when they’re young, and both share anecdotes from their own life about this need. After some more discussion about privacy and the young, Kristina brings up what should be kept in mind by people developing organizational policies.
Kristina’s book, The Power of Digital Policy, was released in 2019 and took about two years to write. Technology can be difficult to write about because it is ever-changing, so Kristina talks about how she dealt with this and if we can expect a revised version any time soon.
When asked if digital privacy practices can translate into increased revenue for a business, Kristina says that it absolutely can. We hear about a small company she has been working with that wins contracts over giant companies because of their focus on privacy. This shows that privacy can go beyond just doing the right thing.
Our guest today is Eric Le, who has a diverse background in sales and marketing for consumer product companies. Currently, Eric is the Vice President of Marketing for O2 Natural Recovery, which is the world’s first oxygenated recovery drink for athletes. Prior to O2 he worked at Epic Provisions, a company which crafted high-protein meat snacks.
During his time at Epic, Eric was instrumental in creating and launching the Meatcast podcast. This podcast focused on the brand’s activities, so Eric tells us what inspired him to go behind the mic. The podcast still continues today, and even though Eric is no longer involved, it’s one of his proudest accomplishments from his time at epic.
As smaller brands, both Epic and O2 have had to persuade retailers such as convenience stores to carry their products. Eric tells us how the changing demographics of convenience store customers has made this task easier, even with a limited amount of shelf space available. He then speaks to how the Epic product was marketed from a place of empathy.
Michael asks how O2 Natural Recovery goes about marketing their product so that it will become a staple on shopping lists, and Eric answers that it’s about forming a relationship. He describes various channels that O2 uses to foster this connection, including social media and retail promotions.
Eric shares the stories behind a last-minute product launch at Epic and why O2 had to switch product processors when they wanted to launch their own new product. We hear about how unexpected issues could derail launches at larger companies, and how Eric turned these misadventures into opportunities.
Michael Mina is a business analytics and data science professional who has a proven record of creating solutions in banking, consulting, insurance, healthcare management, and academia. Currently, he is a VP of Decision Science and Analytics at PNC Bank as well as an Adjunct Professor of Analytics at Cleveland State University. He joins the podcast today to compare and contrast decision science and data science and discuss how analytics improve customer experience in the financial sector.
Michael has not yet found universally accepted definitions of “data science” or “decision science,” but he shares his perspective of what exactly they mean. He talks about where these sciences fit into the four segments of analytics. Michael further illustrates these terms by telling us about an exercise he plans to give his students.
To help professionals bridge the gap between what they see in data versus what they need to explain to their team members who aren’t as proficient, Michael says to focus on what the end users are after. He lists questions to ask ourselves to help with this before giving more presentation tips to allow for better comprehension.
Being involved in several misadventures throughout his career, Michael describes one in which he built a data mart without telling his manager, and another in which a company was $12,000,000 out of balance. He discusses what he has learned from these experiences and expresses that sometimes not every problem is even worth fixing.
Customer journey analytics is a growing area that Michael is excited about heading into 2020. He speaks to the importance of customer experience and explains the usefulness of Net Promotor Score. We also hear about the prospect of linking key performance indicators to the customer experience.
Whether you think it’s a good thing or not, artificial intelligence is being used by marketers - through our technology, through our phones, through our televisions, through our cars - every day. William Ammerman, author of “The Invisible Brand: Marketing in the Age of Automation, Big Data, and Machine Learning” joins Michael to discuss both the benefits and risks in AI .
William starts by expressing why he wanted to write The Invisible Brand, along with why he chose this title. Michael questions if William’s opinion of artificial intelligence changed while writing this book, so we hear about the opportunities and concerns that he wrote about. He explains that there are many risks which people do not comprehend.
There is much profit to be made from changing people’s behaviors, and using personalized information is so effective that people are pouring billions of dollars into AI research. William says we’ll never run out of capacity to use this data but does reveal one of the most problematic opportunities. He gives an example of data collection outpacing its application.
Traditional forms of advertising still work, though they have adapted to the new marketing landscape. William talks about the evolving subscription model and its role in the major shift of media consumption. He then provides his suggestions on what traditional publishers should pursue regarding AI.
Trying to write a book? William instills that you don’t have to do it alone. You should get help by finding people who can support you and get you through the process. He reveals some discussions happening around The Invisible Brand and then shares a quick story about empathy.
Summer Crenshaw, COO, CMO, and Co-Founder of tilr, joins today's episode to discuss the changing landscape of recruiting and the use of algorithmic hiring processes to drive how companies and job seekers connect.
Michael starts by asking how tilr, which is a quickly-expanding technology platform that automates the matching of independent contractors with job offers, helps people looking for a job opportunity make the right decision. Summer delves into both the inspiration behind the company and the changing workforce. She talks about how what were once thought of as millennial values are actually values of the modern workplace as a whole. Summer also discusses how talent should be the driving force between how companies and individuals connect.
When tilr first launched, there was quite a gap between the people looking for jobs on the platform versus the jobs that were being posted. Summer shares that they had to shift their marketing to speak to the right audience and discusses how this was partly accomplished with empathy mapping.
Summer spends a good deal of time with fellow entrepreneurs, so she reveals to us the biggest pieces of advice that she hands out. With her other co-founders living in different cities, Summer knew she had to find her tribe and build a local support network and recommends that others do the same.
Though Summer was involved with marketing for a long time, she felt like she never budgeted enough for marketing expenses when starting tilr. She wishes she analyzed the numbers more so back then and tells young entrepreneurs to do way more testing if starting a business today.
Finally, Summer touches on the importance of following your energy and learning to reflect on – and focus on – what gives you energy and what doesn’t.
Today we are joined by AJ Wilcox, LinkedIn ads expert. He has scaled and managed some of the world’s most sophisticated LinkedIn accounts. In 2014 AJ founded B2Linked, which specializes in LinkedIn ads training, consulting, and account management. He recently became a certified LinkedIn ads partner and is able to educate us about what works and what doesn’t when advertising on the site.
Not initially attracted to LinkedIn, AJ tells us that he first started out as an SEO specialist. His interest in Google AdWords landed him a job as the Marketing Manager at a mid-sized software company. AJ shares the story of how this job introduced him to LinkedIn ads and the immediate success he enjoyed before we hear about what makes LinkedIn advertising unique.
Browsers have been waging war against cookies, which is causing the retargeting efforts of many advertisers to be defeated. Google and Facebook have taken steps to retarget through other means, and AJ reveals that LinkedIn is following suit. He then discusses another feature that LinkedIn is working on.
AJ often sees new advertisers who deal with search and social media think they can use the same advertising methods on LinkedIn. He says that most businesses that immediately send something to the bottom of the funnel fail and then gives advice on how to avoid this.
With so much knowledge sharing happening in marketing, AJ makes recommendations on the best places to learn. He also mentions that he has written a book about LinkedIn ads to be released soon and will also launch a podcast covering the topic.
Connect with AJ:
- B2Linked
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilcoxaj/
Named by Forbes Magazine as the “COO whisperer,” Cameron is the mastermind behind hundreds of companies’ exponential growth. This episode features a focus on his latest book, Free PR.
The new book is quite different from Cameron’s previous works, so he tells us why he decided to write about public relations this time. Methods of how publications gather stories to write about have changed over the years, and Cameron explains why this was an important consideration in Free PR.
Cameron initially shows up to his relationships asking for help. We learn about how this builds trust while he shares a story about the relationship Cameron has with a friend of his. He then speaks to the importance of thinking about the unique abilities of your people.
There are five core story angles that a small-to-medium-sized business can utilize when it comes to public relations. Cameron discusses them through a real-life example before revealing some of his favorite PR tools.
After providing lots of valuable information about generating public relations, Cameron is asked to talk about a failure and the lessons he learned from it. He discusses a time when he was embarrassed during a campaign for 1-800-GOT-JUNK that he was involved in. Cameron then describes the hard work that goes into becoming an “overnight success story” and why persistence is needed.
David has helped companies such as Allstate, Airbnb, and Johnson & Johnson transform their marketing efforts into profit centers through meaningful and measurable business outcomes supported by analytics.
He begins by telling us what an average day at Google looks like. David focuses the majority of his energy on reducing whatever internal waste he possibly can in his own organization so he can spend that extra time with customers. We than hear about the several different industries David works across and the people he manages.
After David mentions waste multiple times, Michael asks for an explanation of how to manage waste in the digital space. David describes different ways it can manifest and how it can be reduced before talking about how measuring KPIs has changed over the past decade.
David is a big fan of experimentation and testing. There are many ways to segment a test marketing campaign, but David shares some advice that is relevant to all of them. He believes that unwillingness to take risks restricts innovation within companies.
The soft skills of doing business in overseas countries is an aspect that David often sees lacking in people. He reveals the four factors that are used when building trust with someone, which have varying importance in different countries. At the end of the episode, David shares tips for beginners in the data science space.
Digital transformation is a very hot topic right now, but everyone’s definition of it seems to be different. To start off the show, Michael asks for Tony’s definition to lay the foundation for today’s discussion.
Whenever Tony is invited to have a conversation with a company that finds itself falling behind, his first actions have little to do with technology. He determines what is happening in the industry, what the strengths of the company are, and how willing to change this company is. Tony then provides insight on where his analysis moves towards after covering these areas.
It’s hard to keep in-touch with the ever-changing landscape of technology, but Tony recommends three ways that we can stay up to date. Then, he shares the five stages of digital transformation as outlined in his book.
A lot of companies have created venture arms and external business development groups. Tony believes that this is a positive decision from them because it’s a good way to understand the external environment. However, though this behavior is necessary, Tony says that it is not sufficient and explains why. He then speaks to the importance of getting all employees involved in change.
With a lot of unknowns being at play regarding technological regulations, the advice Tony gives to companies is to do what is morally right for their customers. Tony finishes his interview by talking about what his plans are for the next few years.
Learn More
Transformant: http://transformant.io/
Tony on Twitter: https://twitter.com/tony_saldanha
Tony on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tony-saldanha-200591123
Email Tony: tonys@transformant.io
David Cost, Vice President of Ecommerce & Digital Marketing at Rainbow Apparel, joins the podcast today. Since joining the company in 2015, he has grown Rainbow Apparel's ecommerce business over 400% and has plenty of thoughts to share that led him to this success.
Michael asks David if he thinks the retail apocalypse is coming, and David explains why he doesn't think that it is. He talks about the shift he has seen in retail throughout his life and then gives an overview of the positive state that Rainbow is in. We hear about the conditioning that consumers have gone through in retail, which has taught them to never pay full price for an item.
When asked about omnichannel marketing, David shares his belief that terms like these have been made up by retail insiders. He states that thinking of stores and brands this way is not the way that consumers do, therefore causing a gap. David discusses what Rainbow is doing to eliminate any difference between their online and in-store experience.
David shares the metrics that Rainbow looks at on a monthly basis and says that he tries to determine if the value of a customer changes based on where advertising money is spent. He then provides details on the split between Rainbow's online and offline advertising and talks about an aspect that the company struggles with.
After briefly discussing the challenges of hiring digital marketers with the right combination of technical and marketing skills, the conversation comes back to the conditioning of customers, and David gives examples of how successful clothes retailers do business. He shares that offering promotions too often never ends well.
Today’s guest is Ahmed Zedan. He is a co-founder of Haute Hijab, a leading Modest Fashion brand and community that empowers women through leadership and community engagement. Before focusing full-time on Haute Hijab, he served as VP of Marketing of an online fashion marketplace.
Each member of the Haute Hijab team has a spirit produce, so Ahmed explains what this means and how he determined his. He talks further about the culture at his company and why he is passionate about maintaining authenticity. We are then provided with examples of industries that have several companies that are not authentic.
Having grown the business greatly since its inception, Ahmed is asked to explain how marketing was approached in the beginning compared to what it looks like now. The business focused on free forms of marketing initially, which were successful because of Ahmed’s knowledge of digital marketing. Ahmed created a closed Facebook group just for the company’s customers, and Michael asks for the thought process that went into this. The also discuss the important of using other types of social media, including Instagram, to cultivate one-on-one relationships with their customers.
Ahmed reveals some marketing methods that Haute Hijab has tried that did not find success. He shares a story about a Valentine’s Day campaign that they ran which caused some criticism from customers because of their religion.
Ahmed is very experienced in digital marketing, both as a consultant and now with his own brand. We learn about how his perception of marketing changed as his career progressed. After, Ahmed expresses his belief that research is extremely important before even experimenting with marketing. He then provides an example of a change that the company made after some research.
Today we welcome Cory Munchbach, SVP, Strategy at BlueConic. Cory's fascination with marketing technology and trends began with her time at Forrester and continues in her current role.
One way to look at marketing trends is with the potential impact of technology. There is an accelerated nature of the adoption of new kinds of tech; it keeps getting faster and faster with each introduction. For example, Cory points to QR codes. They were a big fad that businesses liked using, but consumers were not so into it. It is essential to understand the views of all stakeholders.
Next, she discusses the trend behind CDPs. While there has been a lot of hype and conversation around this category, Cory enumerates how a CDP liberates data and enables marketers to make informed decisions on things such as product innovation or marketing engagement.
After touching on privacy, including GDPR and the California Consumer Privacy Act, Cory explains the most effective ways to market an organization. She is a big believer in thought leadership, which means giving prospective buyers information that will help shape their thinking on a particular topic. It is challenging for two reasons. One, there is no instant gratification, it takes time to build up a voice and a body of work. Two, you have to work extremely hard to overcome the temptation to parrot your marketing proposition in your content. The product exists to solve a problem, the product exists in a broader context, and thought leadership should reflect that fact. That's not an easy thing.
Shannon has been part of the social media landscape for over ten years and shares that pretty much everything has changed since she began. She talks about why the attitude surrounding social media is one of the most prominent changes, comparing what her first social media job was like in 2008. Having started with handling the social media of the Detroit Red Wings, we hear about the differences of overseeing their activities and those of a bank.
There are eight people on Shannon’s team. She explains what each member does and reveals what helps her decide which type of content is needed. Shannon talks about one area that she has seen many social media programs fail in over the years. Michael adds in his own example of this mistake.
Neil asks Shannon for her thoughts on how she determines if a new marketing channel is worth getting involved with. A conversation ignites about Snapchat and Shannon’s fascination with influencers. Michael argues that the social media pendulum may swing back as more and more people are choosing to not use it at all.
Shannon talks about some of the statistics she sees regarding how different demographics do their banking. We learn about banking innovations that are happening in other countries and the responsibility of banks to protect consumer data. Neil brings up ways that some brands have been able to differentiate their business in revolutionary ways.
Anna Shutko, Product Marketing Manager at Supermetrics, is today's guest. We begin by hearing more about Supermetrics’ features and how it enables marketers to spend their time focusing on what matters - analysis. Michael asks Anna if she thinks people are equipped at analyzing data, leading her to talk about the difficulty in doing so and how tools can help.
Anna also shares more specifics about her role and Supermetrics and how A/B testing is an essential component in her marketing toolkit. She also discusses what performance metrics she focuses on and the importance of having a North Star metric.
After customer lifetime value comes up several times, Anna is asked for her thoughts on this and how companies can measure this value from their own customers. Neil then goes deep into customer lifetime value and predicts what will happen with customers in the future.
Large company executives always seem to bring up direct-to-consumer marketing to Michael and Neil. While Michael was researching which organizations are playing in the space, he came across WellPath, an ecommerce business in the wellness and technology space. Michael decided to invite Colin Darretta, CEO and Founder of WellPath as well as the co-founder of DojoMojo, a SaaS MarTech platform developed to enable businesses execute Partnership Marketing strategies at scale. to today's conversation.
Having always been interested in self-optimization, Colin provides a background of how he started WellPath to fulfill this passion. He learned some tough entrepreneurial lessons in its early days and explains how he overcame them thanks to some other investments he had made.
Colin has found that email marketing is very effective for WellPath because it allows for ongoing conversation and is one of the last places where you truly own your audience. Though he insists that channels like search engines and social media are very important in building a successful business, he believes email marketing is a great precursor. Colin talks about the downfalls of social media and what he has discovered from email engagement with customers.
WellPath aims to launch a new product roughly every eight weeks, a process which relies heavily on the first-party data they collect. Colin is asked for the metrics which he looks at every day and then reveals what exactly they are, including one that he believes often gets overlooked. After, Colin discusses specific problems that he sees with the consumer behavior of WellPath’s customers.
With so many players in the supplement space, Michael asks Colin about what WellPath does to differentiate itself. We learn about what Colin’s biggest marketing mistake was and his advice for how to avoid making the same one.
The amount of time and effort that should be put into organic traffic versus paid traffic is a very common debate within organizations. Michael and Neil discuss this today alongside Will Critchlow, Founder & CEO of online marketing agency Distilled.
With a lot of any company’s organic search budget being allocated to SEO, Neil recalls a meeting he attended that involved a search engine builder and an advertiser. The action that the builder kept advocating was to build better content, so Neil shares his opinion that companies often minimize the value of creating new content that users want to see.
Will enters the podcast as Michael questions how to win organically in 2019. Will agrees that building better content is key, but also has a unique perspective on certain subtleties. He says that there are not generic best practices, but rather every industry has specific things that they should be doing.
To improve their optimization processes, Neil says that he wishes companies would run more tests. He reveals what two traits these tests should entail so that they aren’t done just for the sake of testing. Will agrees with this philosophy and is then questioned about a methodology issue that can occur when quick marketing decisions need to be made.
Michael believes that a lot of things will change in digital marketing over the next two or three years, so he asks Will what he thinks the biggest changes will be. Will discusses in-search widgets that discourage click-throughs to webpages and the uncertainty he sees surrounding Facebook. Despite these points, he is positive about the future.
About Will Critchlow
Will Critchlow is CEO of Distilled - a company he founded in 2005 with Duncan Morris. Distilled provides online marketing services from offices in London, New York and Seattle, hosts the SearchLoveconference series in the US and UK, produces the popular online training platform DistilledU, and runs the SEO split-testing platform DistilledODN.
Michael and Neil have been talking with each other recently about how they often get approached by students seeking advice on getting a job in analytics. Because of this, the guys want to talk about how students can better prepare themselves for a job in this space. To help them out, Jeff Camm has been invited to share his insights.
Jeff is the Associate Dean of Business Analytics, the Inmar Presidential Chair in Business Analytics, and the Executive Director of the Center for Analytics at Wake Forest University. The first topic he speaks about is how students need their technical and storytelling sides of analytics to work in synergy.
All students that enter Jeff’s faculty get interviewed, so he shares what criteria his team looks for during this process. He encourages enthusiasm, passion, and confidence. Building on this, Neil brings up some behaviors he has seen from students in interviews that he has conducted and Jeff comments on what skillets will be needed in the future.
Jeff discusses what he sees the market looking for from applicants, during which he mentions that he hasn’t seen a bias towards analytics but rather leadership and communication skills. This leads into his observations on the types of people he believes are currently in managerial roles and making the hiring decisions. We then hear about new positions that some firms have created.
The three proceed to talk about job titles that people give themselves in the analytics field that discredit the industry as a whole. After, Michael asks Jeff how employers can build a great experience for new graduates to learn and deliver results.
Today’s topic is omnichannel and direct-to-consumer marketing, areas that Michael has been hearing a lot about lately. He introduces the subject by sharing some statistics he learned from a recent leadership summit. Michael and Neil welcome Sean Lee, Vice President of Digital Marketing at Pure Romance, to bring his expertise in the space to the discussion.
Michael asks Neil about his thoughts on omnichannel marketing. Neil brings up the different visions between newer and older companies in implementing this type of channel before sharing his comments on the impact that younger digital marketers will have on established businesses.
Sean joins the conversation and says that omnichannel isn’t just a trend but that it’s here to stay. We then learn about the customer journey at Pure Romance, with Sean placing a heavy emphasis on communicating one-on-one with their customers. After, Neil gives advice on what a new company should do in their first few weeks online to test out a market. Sean shares a story from when he was involved in launching a brand.
Formerly part of P&G’s marketing team, Sean was there during the revival of Old Spice. He describes the risks that were taken when launching such an unconventional campaign. A discussion then begins around the questions that get asked in consumer surveys and how they should be constructed.
The customer lifetime value considerations at Pure Romance are crucial, leading Sean to tell us about the importance of having relevant, customized user data. We learn about the data aggregation he facilitated when he began working there and how it was utilized. Sean promotes running small tests to get the answer you’re looking for before scaling into bigger investments.
About Sean LeeSean is a classically trained marketing executive, with leadership experience in brand building innovation, digital marketing, e-commerce, and general management. Sean has an entrepreneurial mindset with experience working across diverse sectors and business environments (beauty, pet care, male grooming, insect control, direct sales, start-up brands, and a Fortune 100 company). Sean built out the Pure Romance Digital Marketing and eCommerce business unit from a strategic whitespace area to a high performing team leading a digital marketing transformation. Sean lives the “Lean Innovation” approach and is disciplined about testing hypotheses with clear measurements to either “pass, pivot, or persevere.”
We welcome Ned Calder, a Partner at Innosight and a leader of the Industrial & Technology Solutions practice, to today’s podcast. In over ten years with Innosight, he has partnered with the leadership teams of some of the world's top companies to navigate disruptive change. Ned has extensive experience helping companies develop high-potential growth opportunities across a wide range of industries.
First, Michael asks Ned about how organizations can get out of a standstill position and why they end up there in the first place. Ned continues on about the risk that is involved when traditional companies must change their business model to compete in a world driven by digital means. He then gives his opinion on the root cause of why this transition sometimes fails.
Michael observes that the digital transformation within a business is sometimes started by a certain person but is then left in the hands of others to maintain. Ned says the catalyst of this is the lack of a clear, long-term vision within the company and provides a solution for this problem. He adds that the organizational culture needs to be considered as well.
Both Ned and Neil give their takes on the future of retailing, with Neil beginning by citing the importance of an omnichannel experience and something he is discouraged by. Ned agrees with Neil’s opinion and adds in the differences between certain industries. Michael then starts a discussion about direct-to-consumer sales.
Ned says that before he started working in his current company, he wishes he appreciated the importance of top-down leadership and long-term vision as it relates to transformation. He then points out a common mistake that companies make when transforming.
About Ned Calder
Ned is a thought leader, speaker, and author on various topics related to technology-driven industries including the future of the automotive industry, R&D, Industrial IoT, and digital services and business models. His perspectives have appeared in Harvard Business Review, Sloan Management Review, and Forbes. Ned's work has enabled organizations to define and align on a unified strategy for long-term growth, develop new business models for products and services, and build the organizational enablers and capabilities required to support the transformation.
Ben Petersen joins Michael for an interview in this episode. Ben is the Head of Marketing at online retailer BladeHQ and has a background in journalism, radio, and film production. Some of the topics discussed today are community building, SEO, digital marketing, and analytics.
We begin with Michael asking Ben what his biggest realizations were when moving from the broadcasting world over to digital marketing. Ben proceeds to talk about how the storytelling skills he learned in broadcasting translated over to marketing nicely. He then speaks to how BladeHQ differentiates itself compared to other competing online retailers and how he approaches creative storytelling for the brand.
Having built a strong community for BladeHQ, Ben shares what his plan of action would entail if he had to do the same thing for a different company. This includes a look at how he would perform research about the company's customer base. We then learn about the key metrics that Ben analyzes daily from BladeHQ's social media channels and he reflects on what he has learned about content that goes viral.
Ben provides an overview of his marketing team and likens it to an in-house marketing agency. Because Michael often gets asked by marketing students about what skills they need to land a job, he invites Ben to talk about his answer to this question.
Ben recalls that the biggest mistake he made when starting in this industry was that he didn’t see digital marketing as being multi-faceted. When we are able to recognize this, Ben says that that's when the magic really happens. We finish by hearing about the additional resources Ben wishes he had available today in his marketing activities.