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What happened to the Latter Day Saint movement after it fractured? We discuss the fascination history on RLDS & Bickertonite views about temples. While Brigham Young led his followers West to build physical temples in Utah, multiple restoration branches took a completely different path—formally rejecting Nauvoo theology, secret endowments, and polygamy

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We dive into the fascinating, competitive, and highly diverse world of non-LDS temples. Discover how the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now Community of Christ) built the massive Auditorium in Independence, Missouri—which historian John Hamer argues was secretly designed as a Kirtland-style temple—before dedicating their famous spiral temple in 1984 under Wallace B. Smith.We also explore:RLDS & Bickertonite Views About Temples The Battle for the Temple Lot: How Granville Hedrick’s followers returned to Jackson County in 1867 and purchased the original plot where 24 temples were once planned. * The Great Depression’s Forgotten Temple: Why Otto Fetting’s attempt to construct a Greek-style temple on the Temple Lot in the 1930s left a massive excavation hole—and why former President Harry Truman asked to have it filled in. * The Bickertonite Chasm: Why William Bickerton abandoned Brigham Young’s church after polygamy was announced in 1852, choosing to reject physical temples entirely while embracing radical inclusivity—including ordaining deaconesses in the 1860s and calling an African-American apostle. * Tongues and the “Smith Corpus”:* A fascinating discussion on why groups that rejected Joseph Smith’s later revelations (like the Doctrine and Covenants) successfully preserved early Kirtland Pentecostal gifts like speaking in tongues, while the mainstream LDS Church largely phased them out.

Tune in for an incredible journey through the fractured history and competing temple visions of the Restoration!Support the show at patreon.com/gospeltangents to hear the entire uncut conversation!Copyright © 2026

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Many people think there aren’t non-LDS temples, but that’s not true. When Joseph Smith was assassinated in 1844, the restoration did not just fracture geographically—it shattered the unified theology of the temple. While the LDS Church went on to build a massive global network of private temples, several other branches of the restoration developed highly unique, surprising, and divergent temple traditions of their own.

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In this presentation to the Book of Mormon Perspectives Forum, Gospel Tangents host Rick Bennett explores the fascinating history of “Divergent Temples” across different restoration groups: The Wightites (Texas): Led by Apostle Lyman Wight, this group built the first temple west of the Mississippi in Zodiac, Texas, in 1849—nearly 30 years before the St. George Utah Temple. Shockingly, Wight’s temple endowments were completely open to the public. To secretly practice polygamy, women in the group used their maiden names on both the census and during proxy baptisms to avoid government detection. * The Strangites (Wisconsin & Michigan): Led by James Strang, who claimed an angel ordained him as Joseph’s successor on the day of the martyrdom. Strang established the “Order of the Illuminati,” which featured mysterious, phosphorus-anointed initiations that culminated in Strang being crowned as the “king in Zion.” * The Cutlerites (Missouri):* Founded by Alpheus Cutler, the seventh member of Joseph Smith’s original Quorum of the Anointed. Today, a dwindling number of Cutlerites in Independence, Missouri, still perform temple work on the private second floor of their building. Scholars believe their endowment ceremony is the most unchanged version since the 1840s. However, to distance themselves from polygamy, they reject sealings for the dead while continuing to perform sealings for the living.

Whether you are interested in historical mysteries, theological evolutions, or the Masonic roots of early endowment dramas, this episode offers an eye-opening look at how different restoration groups have sought to build holiness to the Lord.00:00 Introduction04:13 Nauvoo Temple Origins12:14 Groups That Kept Nauvoo-Style Temples

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Back in 2017, I sat down with Anne Wilde, one of the foremost experts on modern-day polygamy. While I like to call her the First Lady of Fundamentalism, she has lived an incredibly unique life as an Independent Fundamentalist. For 33 years, Anne lived as the secret second wife of Ogden Kraut, a prolific fundamentalist author whose 65 books she personally helped write and edit. From the secret history of Mormon schisms to her own spiritual journey, you won’t want to miss this fascinating conversation!

https://youtu.be/LH2zMt27kxM

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Raised in the mainstream LDS Church, Anne later became an “Independent Fundamentalist” and lived for 33 years as the secret second wife of prolific fundamentalist author Ogden Kraut. This sweeping conversation covers everything from the hidden history of Mormon schisms to controversial theology and modern civil rights.Hidden History of Post-Manifesto PolygamyMany believe plural marriage ended abruptly with the LDS Church’s 1890 Manifesto, but Anne explains it was more like a sunset: “when does it get dark? It’s just gradually.” She points to an uncanonized 1886 revelation received by Church President John Taylor, which fundamentalists believe declared plural marriage an everlasting covenant that could not be changed. Consequently, polygamy continued underground and in places like Mexico and Canada. It took the 1904 Second Manifesto and the 1933 Third Manifesto—which enforced excommunication for those practicing plural marriage—to create a permanent rift between the mainstream church and fundamentalist groups.Untangling the Polygamous SectsOne of Anne’s main goals is to dispel the myth that all polygamists are the same. She breaks down the diverse landscape of modern polygamy: The AUB (Apostolic United Brethren): With about 7,500 members, this group has a priesthood council and allows members more free agency in choosing their spouses. (Kody Brown of the TV show Sister Wives comes from this tradition.) * FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints): Notorious for the extreme one-man rule of Warren Jeffs, this group practices arranged marriages and strict dress codes. Anne notes that Jeffs’ oppressive control and habit of splitting up families has caused their numbers to plummet. Since he went to prison, the numbers are about 10% of what they were. * Centennial Park: A breakaway group of about 2,000 members who separated from the FLDS because they wanted a priesthood council rather than a one-man dictatorship. * Ervil LeBaron: Anne also discusses dangerous outliers like Ervil LeBaron, a militant polygamist who claimed his own priesthood authority and became an assassin responsible for roughly 20 deaths, including that of AUB leader Rulon Allred. * Independent Fundamentalists:* Anne identifies with this category—believers who adhere to early doctrines and plural marriage but choose not to affiliate with any centralized sect.

Surprising Stances on Gay MarriageDespite their conservative theology, Anne reveals that many fundamentalists support the legalization of gay marriage. Viewing it through the lens of civil rights, she argues that if polygamists want the government to decriminalize their own family structures, they must grant the same free agency to the LGBTQ+ community. She also expressed deep disappointment with the LDS Church’s 2015 policy that temporarily barred the children of gay parents from being baptized, feeling it wrongly punished children.Anne Wilde’s Controversial Theology: Was Jesus a Polygamist?Anne Wilde and her late husband, Ogden Kraut, authored numerous books, including a highly popular 1969 text arguing that Jesus Christ was a polygamist. She suggests that the wedding feast at Cana was actually Christ’s own wedding, and that he was married to at least Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene. She also tackles difficult aspects of Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, such as the “Law of Sarah,” which ideally requires a first wife’s consent for subsequent marriages. However, Anne notes that if a first wife adamantly refuses to consent to a priesthood law, the husband is exempt from her approval and can marry anyway. Furthermore, she interprets the scriptural mentions of “concubines” not as sex slaves, but as lesser, non-covenant wives permitted by the customs of the era.Advocacy and the 2002 OlympicsAfter living in secret for decades, Anne stepped into the public eye ahead of the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics. Tired of seeing only bitter ex-members defining the narrative around plural marriage, Anne co-founded an advocacy group called “Principle Voices“. During the Olympics, they provided hundreds of press packets and fielded interviews with global media to offer a positive perspective on the lifestyle and to clearly distinguish themselves from the abuses of the FLDS church. Ultimately, Anne’s story is a call for understanding. Whether you agree with her lifestyle or not, her experiences provide a rare, inside look at a marginalized community deeply woven into the fabric of Mormon history.Questions to ponder:1. In what ways do the civil rights struggles of polygamists align with those of the LGBTQ+ community?2. Why is it important to recognize the structural and cultural differences between various polygamous sects?3. How does the “Law of Sarah” impact the balance of agency and power within a plural marriage?4. What role does media representation play in shaping the narrative of marginalized or secretive religious communities?Don’t miss our other conversations Shannon: https://gospeltangents.com/people/shannon-flynnCopyright © 2026

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Shannon Flynn was a former close associate of the notorious Mormon forger and bomber, Mark Hofmann. Recorded before Flynn’s 2021 passing, this conversation provides a chilling, up-close look at Hofmann’s methods, his personality, and the desperate unraveling that led to two murders. We’ll get up close and personal and discuss this crazy chapter of Mormon History.https://youtu.be/9QcITtuSxLoDon’t miss our other conversations Shannon: https://gospeltangents.com/people/shannon-flynnCopyright © 2026

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Mark Hofmann’s Beginnings The Origins of a Forger (Early Life & Coins): Hofmann’s life of deception began long before he forged church documents; he started electroplating fake mint marks onto coins at just 12 years old. Flynn reveals that Mark Hofmann successfully fooled experts for years, though a simple block of dry ice would cause the forged mint marks to flake right off. * Fabricating Provenance (The “Oath of a Freeman”): Flynn details the ingenious ways Mark Hofmann established legitimate backstories for his fake documents. For the highly valuable “Oath of a Freeman,” Hofmann slipped a forged copy into a stack of pamphlets at a massive New York bookstore, took it to the register, and obtained a genuine receipt to prove where he “found” it. * Mastering the Art of Deception (Forgery Techniques): Mark Hofmann’s historical research and chemical techniques were unprecedented. He would steal blank flyleaves from 19th-century books at the University of Utah and BYU so the paper would pass carbon dating. To age the ink instantly, he placed documents in a fish tank with an old electric train motor, using the ozone (O3) to oxidize the ink. This technique eventually led to his downfall, as the rapid drying caused the ink to crack—a telltale sign investigators later used against him. * Beating the Polygraph: Despite murdering two people and fabricating dozens of documents, Mark Hofmann passed a polygraph test with a highly truthful score of +14. Flynn explains that Hofmann had a genius-level IQ of 137 and used intense self-hypnosis and biofeedback—skills he learned from a hypnotist at age 13—to suppress his physical stress responses. * Police Coercion and Flynn’s Arrest: Flynn was briefly caught up in the investigation and was arrested for possessing an unregistered automatic weapon that actually belonged to Hofmann. Flynn vividly recounts how the police lied to the media about finding a “bomb factory” in his storage unit, which initially made Flynn believe that the police were framing Hofmann for the bombings too. * The Murders and Mark Hofmann’s Unraveling: Hofmann operated heavily on a “forgery on demand” basis, constantly producing documents to put out financial fires. The pressure reached a breaking point when a $185,000 bank loan for the nonexistent “McLellin collection” came due. Hofmann built pipe bombs to kill Steve Christensen and Kathy Sheets purely to buy himself time and distract investigators. The third bomb, which injured Hofmann himself, was likely triggered in a moment of desperation as he realized his web of lies had trapped him. * Life in Prison & Church Fallout:* Flynn visited Mark Hofmann several times in prison during the early 1990s, noting that Hofmann had fully adapted to convict life and still practiced self-hypnosis daily. Flynn also addresses the faith crises many experienced over the Hofmann saga, arguing that it is unreasonable to leave the LDS Church just because its leaders failed to detect the forgeries, pointing out that general authorities “don’t have magic powers.”

00:00 Introduction
01:39 How Shannon Met Mark
02:32 Mark’s Early Forgery Career – Coins
09:07 Shannon’s Work with Mark
11:33 Oath of a Freeman Forgery
16:57 Mark’s Legitimate Collecting & Financial Dealings
20:31 McLellin Collection Scheme & First Interstate Bank Loan
25:12 Mark’s Personality
27:57 Beating the Polygraph
51:49 Shannon’s Arrest & Jail Time
1:02:09 The Bombings – Initial Response
1:32:03 Document Forgery Techniques – Paper & Ink
1:38:04 Advanced Forgery Methods – Oxidation & Cracking
1:23:16 Bombing Motives & Third Bomb
1:11:20 Mark’s Production to Demand Strategy
1:15:45 Impact on LDS Scholarship
1:43:40 Prison Life & Suicide Attempt
1:46:05 Shannon’s Prison Visits & Correspondence
1:57:28 Legal Strategy & Plea Agreement
1:40:03 Parole Hearing & Life Sentence
2:04:30 Closing Thoughts on Church Authority

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Evil Ervil LeBaron was a killer. He killed not only his brother Joel LeBaron, but had his wives kill rival Rulon Allred. He was known to have a hit list of others, including President Spencer Kimball of the LDS Church. Jacob Vidrine discusses these events and we’ll discuss the recent drug killings to a LeBaron family in Mexico. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/23RT8A5HEww

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God’s Executioner: How Ervil LeBaron’s Quest for Authority Led to Murder and StigmaWhen discussing Mormon fundamentalism, the name LeBaron often conjures images of violence and notoriety, largely due to the actions of Ervil LeBaron. Though the family’s original movement—the Church of the Firstborn—was rooted in unique priesthood claims tracing back to Nauvoo, Ervil’s descent into murder and extremism permanently attached a “stigma” to the LeBaron name.

Rise of the Violent TheologianErvil LeBaron was one of the younger sons of Alma Dayer LeBaron (Dayer) and was initially associated with the Mexico branch of the family, led by his brother Joel LeBaron. Ervil was recognized early on as a key figure in establishing Joel’s church, serving as a great theologian who authored the important pamphlet Priesthood Expounded. Joel rewarded his loyalty by appointing Ervil to the prestigious position of presiding patriarch over their Mexican church, the number two office under Joel.

However, Ervil’s rise was quickly marred by corruption. Reports indicated that Ervil began embezzling tithing funds and had a reputation for being predatory, attempting to get all the wives for himself and generally aggrandizing himself through his authority.

By 1970, the controversy surrounding Ervil’s financial and moral conduct grew so severe that many members and leaders within Joel’s church felt the need to curb his influence.

Schism and the Birth of ViolenceIn response to Ervil’s excesses, Joel made the drastic decision to strip Ervil of all authority in the church. Ervil, angered by the loss of his prestige and power, convinced himself that he was justified in killing Joel for taking away his authority. This marked the schism, leading Ervil to form his own group, the Church of the Lamb of God.

Ervil’s actions escalated quickly into violence. He claimed a radical, theocratic justification for his subsequent murders: he asserted that he held the civil authority over the earth as “God’s appointed agent”. Based on this claim, Ervil believed he could kill anyone who was “treasonous against his government”.

Ervil ordered Dan Jordan, one of his followers, to murder Joel LeBaron, which occurred in 1972. This assassination cut off the head of Joel’s organization, as Joel died without appointing a successor to his highest office.

Infamous Hit ListAfter murdering his brother, Ervil was determined to eliminate any remaining opposition. He began threatening other fundamentalists and created a massive hit list. He was reportedly concerned about Verlan LeBaron, who had been appointed by Joel to replace Ervil as the presiding patriarch. Verlan was forced to go into hiding for nearly a decade to avoid Ervil’s retribution.

To draw Verlan out of hiding, Ervil devised a calculated and shocking plan: he ordered the murder of Rulon Allred, the leader of the Allred Group (AUB). Ervil targeted Allred because Verlan had married into Rulon’s family, believing Verlan would attend the funeral.

Rulon Allred was assassinated in his doctor’s office in 1977. Ervil allegedly sent two of his wives to commit the crime, securing their commitment to his violent cause. Although Verlan was present at Allred’s funeral, the overwhelming police presence spooked Ervil’s followers, saving Verlan’s life.

Ervil LeBaron’s End and the Lingering TragedyErvil was eventually apprehended in Mexico, extradited, and convicted in 1980 for ordering Allred’s death, receiving a life sentence in Utah State Prison. However, the violence did not end there. Ervil died in prison in 1981 in an apparent suicide.

Tragically, just two days after Ervil’s death was discovered, Verlan LeBaron—the man Ervil had spent years trying to kill—died in an auto accident in Mexico City. Several family members and observers suspected that this was not a coincidence, believing it was a sabotage hit ordered by Ervil’s followers, who continued their deadly work even after Ervil’s incarceration.

Ervil’s actions permanently “soil[ed] the whole [LeBaron]” family, transforming a unique movement rooted in secret Nauvoo priesthood claims into one synonymous with a twisted quest for power and serial murder.

LeBarón and Langford Families Massacre

Tragedy continues in Mexico as recently as 2019. Nine people were killed with some burned alive in a car (three women and six children, all of whom held dual US–Mexican citizenship).[3][4] They were members of the LeBaron and Langford families. A drug cartel is believed to be behind the attack.[5][6] In January 2025, a federal judge in Mexico ordered the Attorney General’s Office to investigate the massacre as an act of terrorism in Mexico.

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1950s were a tumultuous time for Mormon polygamists. Not only did police jail many for polygamy, but there were Mormon Fundamentalist Schisms. Many groups including Joseph Musser and the LeBaron families split apart. Jacob Vidrine of the Church of the Firstborn gives more details. Check out our conversation…

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Dramatic 1955 Schism that Defined the LeBaron LegacyThe history of Mormon fundamentalism is filled with contested authority claims, but few are as immediate and dramatic as the split that occurred between Ross and Joel LeBaron in the mid-1950s. This schism not only severed the nascent Church of the Firstborn into two distinct movements but also cemented radically different interpretations of priesthood authority that traced back to Nauvoo.

From Mexico to Utah: Quest for the KingdomFollowing the death of their father, Alma Dayer LeBaron (Dayer), who had claimed a unique authority line through Benjamin F. Johnson, the family faced a succession crisis. Joel LeBaron and his brothers (including Verlin and Floren) were primarily based in Mexico and had initially affiliated themselves with the Allred Group (AUB), which was the Salt Lake-based faction of the larger Woolley fundamentalist movement after the 1950s split.

In 1955, Joel and his brothers traveled to Utah specifically to request funding from the Allred Council to establish a United Order in Mexico. While staying in Utah, they interacted with their brother, Ross Wesley LeBaron, the second oldest son, who had been ministering separately in the Utah area.

Ross’s Vision: The Higher ChurchRoss had received a commission from his father in 1950 to carry on the “patriarchal work”. His theology provided a unique perspective in the fundamentalist landscape, teaching that the Church of the Firstborn was not merely a holding pattern for the “out-of-order” LDS Church, but rather a “higher church above the Church of Jesus Christ”. Ross argued that the goal was not to “fall back into the church” but to “advance into the church of the firstborn,” emphasizing the higher principles of the patriarchal order restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in the Kirtland Temple.

Ross converted his visiting brothers, Joel and Floren, “back to believing in their father’s authority line” and the patriarchal priesthood. Excited, the brothers decided to formally organize a new church5.

The September Organization and Contested AuthorityOn September 21, 1955, Ross, Joel, and Floren gathered for an organizational meeting that established the Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times. The minutes of this meeting articulated the specific authority lineage claimed by the family: Joseph Smith passed patriarchal keys to Benjamin F. Johnson, who passed them to Alma LeBaron (Dayer), who conferred them on his sons.

In this initial organization:

Ross Wesley LeBaron was sustained as the head patriarch, holding the keys and calling received from their father. Ross emphasized that “the honor is in the work, not the title,” focusing on the substance of the calling rather than merely claiming specific offices.
Joel LeBaron was ordained to the office of president of the Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times.
Floren LeBaron was set apart as a counselor.

Ross claimed he ordained both Joel and Floren as patriarchs1012. However, this unity was fleeting.

Joel’s Claim to the One Mighty and StrongWithin approximately a week of the organization, Joel decided to split from Ross. Joel sought a higher, incontrovertible claim to authority to override Ross’s position as the patriarch holding the keys.

Joel traveled up Farmington Canyon and claimed to receive a revelation or a theophany. He claimed that “no fewer than… 17 or 18 different past prophets” appeared to him on the mountain.

Crucially, these messengers allegedly appointed Joel as “the one mighty and strong”.

This claim directly targeted Ross’s earlier teachings; Ross had claimed the birthright of Joseph Smith and described his own work as merely “preparatory work until the one mighty and strong came”. By claiming this specific title, Joel effectively trumped Ross’s foundational claim and secured his own undisputed position as the highest authority.

The dramatic revelation led to a swift separation, with Ross remaining in Utah and Joel returning to Mexico, where he would successfully grow his branch of the Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times to several thousand members, emphasizing a restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ structure (complete with a Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and a High Council), rather than Ross’s focus on the higher patriarchal order.

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In essence, the split between Ross and Joel LeBaron illustrates a fundamental tension in fundamentalist authority: the conflict between inheriting authority (Ross, the Birthright, the Patriarchal Keys) versus receiving new, definitive revelation (Joel, the Theophany, the One Mighty and Strong).

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Will there be polygamy in heaven? We’re diving into Ross LeBaron story with Jacob Vidrine of the Church of the Firstborn. I’ll also ask Jacob if polygamy a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom. Will it be monogamy or polygamy in heaven? His answer surprised me! We discuss Law of Adoption & the Manifesto ending polygamy in the LDS Church as well. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/m20kOKhSdLA

0:00 1st Successor: Ross LeBaron
13:57 Law of Adoption
22:03 Requirement for Polygamy in Heaven?
28:59 Manifesto

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Nauvoo Foundation: Priesthood Above ChurchTo understand the LeBaron claim, one must look back to Nauvoo Mormonism, where Joseph Smith introduced the concept of higher orders of priesthood. This “highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood” was often referred to as the “fullness of the priesthood” and involved making men and women “kings and priests” in temple ordinances.

Associated with this was the Council of 50, which Joseph Smith established just months before his death as the “literal government” or “political kingdom of God on the earth.” Historical evidence suggests that the Council of 50 was intended to be a presiding priesthood body that held authority no church tribunal could control.

Benjamin F. Johnson was one of the men added to the Council of 50 on March 26, 1844, just before Joseph Smith’s death. Johnson was a close friend of Joseph Smith and was taught directly about plural marriage, endowments, garments, and the Second Anointing. Johnson later asserted that he was authorized by Joseph Smith “to teach this to others when I’m was led to do so.”

After the Council of 50 ceased meeting (it became defunct after 1885/1911 when Joseph F. Smith denied the request to reconvene it), Johnson emphasized that he was the last living original member of the Council of 50.

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Transmission of the BirthrightThe LeBaron authority claim rests on Johnson passing this special, secret Nauvoo authority—which included the Fullness of the Priesthood and involvement in the Kingdom of God structure—to his grandson, Alma Dayer LeBaron (Dayer.)

This transfer of keys was unusual because it bypassed Dayer’s own father, Benjamin Franklin LeBaron. The LeBaron family justified this by drawing analogies to the Old Testament, such as Jacob appointing Ephraim the birthright over his older brother Manasseh.

The lineage runs: Joseph Smith à Benjamin F. Johnson à Alma Dayer LeBaron.

The family tradition holds that in the mid-1890s, when Dayer was about 10 years old, Johnson gave him a patriarchal blessing appointing him to hold the “birthright of Joseph Smith.” This “birthright” concept relates to special blessings given in the Nauvoo Temple, granting “special authority to authorize the temple… work for the dead” within a family context. Before Johnson died (around 1905), he reportedly charged Dayer to “carry on the kingdom” and conferred upon him all the priesthood that Johnson had received from Joseph Smith.

Dayer spent the remainder of his life establishing his family and practicing plural marriage in Mexico, having been excommunicated from the LDS Church. Because he was secretive about his authority claim, Dayer was sometimes called the “silent prophet” or “quiet heir of the kingdom.”

LeBaron Split: Ross’s Unique TheologyFollowing Dayer’s death in the early 1950s without naming a clear successor, a succession crisis ensued, leading to major schisms among his sons: Ben (who was mentally unwell), Ross Wesley LeBaron (second oldest), and Joel LeBaron (a younger son.)

Ross, who operated primarily in Utah, built his claim on a commission received from Dayer in 1950 to carry on the “patriarchal work.” Ross emphasized a cosmology that directly reflected the Nauvoo concepts:

Patriarchal Priesthood as Highest Authority: Ross taught that the Church of the Firstborn was a higher church above the Church of Jesus Christ. This was the priesthood restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in the Kirtland Temple.
Dissemination of Authority: Unlike the Woolley line, which concentrated power in a central “Council of Friends,” Ross’s theology focused on giving this highest authority (patriarchal keys) to many worthy men for their own family spheres, acting as a check and balance against the concentration of power.
Emphasis on Work over Title: Ross received a revelation that affirmed, “the honor is in the work, not the title,” which distinguished his ministry from other fundamentalists focused solely on claiming specific offices.

The distinct nature of this lineage—tracing independent temple and kingdom authority through a Council of 50 member rather than through the apostolic line—is why LeBaronism remains a peculiar and historically fascinating branch of Mormon fundamentalism.

Status of Monogamists in Celestial KingdomHistorically, leaders whose teachings form the basis of fundamentalist theology (such as Brigham Young and Lyman Wight) taught that monogamous people can go to the celestial kingdom.

Faithfulness, Not Numbers: The primary factor for achieving the celestial kingdom is how faithful you are to the gospel, not simply the number of wives one possesses.
A “Gallon Measure”: When questioned about whether a man could be exalted without plural wives, Brigham Young reportedly responded using an analogy: “you can’t put a gallon and a pint measure, but both can be made filled full.” He concluded that “If a man is faithful with one wife, he may grow to be a gallon measure.”
Requirement of Acceptance: The view held by those attempting to harmonize these teachings is that a faithful monogamist must accept plural marriage in their faith as being a true principle in order to qualify for the celestial kingdom.

Polygamy in Heaven: Attaining the Highest Glory and GodhoodWhile a monogamist can achieve the celestial kingdom, the practice of plural marriage is tied to the highest level of exaltation and becoming a God.

Greater Glory: Polygamists are understood to attain a greater glory in the celestial kingdom.
The Law of Godhood: The perspective is that if “we do not live the same law that our heavenly father lives then we cannot go where he is,” suggesting that plural marriage is part of the law of Godhood. Therefore, in order to be a god, you will have to eventually practice polygamy.
Priesthood Authority: The doctrine of John Taylor maintained that a man living a “lower law cannot preside over a man living a higher law.” The fulfillment of the “celestial law” (including plural marriage) is seen as a “stepping stone to exaltation” and to the “responsibility of godhood.”
Degrees of Glory (Specific Cosmologies): Within some fundamentalist cosmologies (like that articulated by Ross LeBaron, derived partially from Lorin Woolley), the degrees of the celestial kingdom are associated with plural marriage. One specific cosmology suggested that attaining the highest degree of the celestial kingdom might require seven or more wives, the middle degree five, and the bottom degree three. However, Ross LeBaron viewed these as “celestial patterns that aren’t necessarily attained on earth.”

In summary, fundamentalist theology generally holds that acceptance of plural marriage as a true principle is essential for celestial glory, and its eventual practice is considered necessary for the greatest glory and achieving Godhood. Ross LeBaron’s particular theology, however, often took plural marriage for granted and focused more heavily on the patriarchal priesthood and keys necessary for the “higher church” (the Church of the Firstborn.)

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Jacob Vidrine discusses LeBaron succession! You may have heard of Ervil, Joel, and Ross LeBaron. Who took charge after Alma Dayer LeBaron died? Check out our conversation….

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LeBaron Divide: Priesthood, Power, & Struggle for the BirthrightWhen the name LeBaron is mentioned in discussions of Mormon fundamentalism, often the first person who comes to mind is the notorious Ervil LeBaron, a murderer who had a hit list and was a murderer and died in jail. However, the complex history of the LeBaron family and their unique claims to priesthood authority—separate from most other fundamentalist groups like the FLDS, AUB, and Woolley-ites—reveals a fascinating succession crisis rooted deep in Nauvoo-era doctrine.

We will discuss how the LeBarons obtained their distinct authority and how their patriarch’s death fractured the family into multiple competing groups across Utah and Mexico.

Peculiar Lineage: Tracing Authority to Benjamin F. JohnsonUnlike the majority of fundamentalists who trace their authority back to the 1886 revelation received by John Taylor (the Woolley line), the LeBaron authority stems from a different source. This lineage is traced to Benjamin F. Johnson, a close friend of Joseph Smith and a member of the secretive Council of 50.

The LeBaron authority claim relies on the concept of the “fullness of the priesthood” or the “highest order of the priesthood,” authority that Joseph Smith introduced in Nauvoo. This highest order involved making men “kings and priests” and conferring the sealing power. Johnson, who emphasized his role as the “last living original member of the Council of 50,” taught that Joseph Smith authorized him to teach these keys—plural marriage, endowments, garments, and the second anointing—to others when led by the Holy Spirit.

This unique priesthood was considered “above the church,” creating an authority that “no tribunal in the church could control.” Johnson, near his death (circa 1903-1905), charged his grandson, Alma Dayer “Dayer” LeBaron Sr., to carry on this special family birthright and the work of the kingdom.Hesitant Patriarch and the Failed Succession

Dayer LeBaron Sr., born in 1886, entered into plural marriage in the 1920s and moved his family to Mexico to escape prosecution, spending the rest of his life carving out a homestead there. Due to his secretive nature (leading to the nickname “The Silent Prophet”) and the mental decline of his intended firstborn successor, Benjamin. Dayer was hesitant to teach his younger children about his specific authority claims.

By 1950, Dayer’s health was failing rapidly; he was bedridden, suffering from paralysis, and could barely communicate. This severe decline set the stage for a succession crisis, as Dayer maintained that he could not appoint a successor “until the Holy Ghost tells me who to appoint.”

The resulting conflict split the family authority claims into three main groups:

Benjamin (Ben): The oldest son, who had experienced mental episodes and claimed to be “the one mighty and strong,” attempted to coax a blessing from his dying father, causing distress among the family.
Joel LeBaron: One of the younger sons living in Mexico, Joel was told that the birthright was his “if I don’t give it to one of the other boys.” This vague pronouncement was hardly a solid foundation for leadership.
Ross Wesley LeBaron (Wesley): The second oldest son, who spent most of his life ministering in Utah, had already received a patriarchal blessing from his father in 1950, conferring keys of the patriarchal order of priesthood (the keys restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in Kirtland.) Ross was prevented from traveling to his father’s deathbed in Mexico because he was under bond in Utah related to polygamy.

Ross claimed he received a revelation urging him not to ask for the “birthright” title, but instead to ask for a “commission to carry on the patriarchal work.” This revelation emphasized a key tenet of his ministry: “the honor is in the work, not the title.”

The Split: Utah vs. Mexico LeBaron SuccessionDayer LeBaron ultimately died in 1951 without clearly naming a successor.

The lack of clear leadership led to an immediate schism:

Ross LeBaron in Utah: Ross stood on the independent authority he had been commissioned to carry on and began proclaiming himself as the successor, claiming he had received the voice of the spirit telling him the patriarchal work was now on his shoulders. He established his group simply as The Church of the Firstborn.
The Mexico LeBarons: Joel, Ervil, and Alma Jr. (the Mexico sons) initially failed to accept their father’s priesthood authority fully. They reached out to the broader fundamentalist community, inviting Margarito Bautista to come organize them. They sustained Bautista and accepted the leadership of Rulon Allred (the proto-AUB group) for several years, from 1951 up to 1955.
Joel’s Church: In 1955, Joel split off from the AUB/Woolley influence to found The Church of the Firstborn in the Fullness of Times in Mexico, which grew to a significant size, peaking at several thousand members.
The Violent End: Joel’s success was tragically cut short when Ervil LeBaron, who was Joel’s second-in-command, had a schism with Joel, leading to Ervil being excommunicated. Ervil went on to found the Church of the Lamb of God and committed the terrible acts of violence and murder that brought the LeBaron name infamy. Ervil was responsible for not only his brother Joel’s death, but Rulon Allred as well.

The history of the LeBarons illustrates how complex foundational priesthood claims, combined with vague successions and sibling rivalries, led to divergent paths—one emphasizing ministry (Ross) and others ending in notoriety and violence (Ervil.)

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Jacob Vidrine tells how authority transferred from Benjamin F Johnson in Nauvoo to Alma Dayer LeBaron and the LeBaron groups. Check out our conversation…

The LeBaron authority line, originating from Benjamin F. Johnson, is like a secret royal charter given directly by the king (Joseph Smith) to a trusted advisor, authorizing him to establish a new subsidiary branch of the kingdom. While other fundamentalist lines (Woolleyites) claim authority based on a later, more public decree (John Taylor’s revelation), the LeBaron claim bypasses that decree entirely, asserting that they hold the direct, foundational keys passed down in private, reserved councils from the original founder, allowing them to continue the highest work of the kingdom regardless of later organizational changes.

0:00 Succession Crisis
11:15 End of Council of 50
19:45 Ben Johnson Ordains Grandsons
25:56 Ervil, Joel, Ross, & Dayer LeBaron
37:38 Woolley-ite Split

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When most people, particularly those familiar with the history of the Latter-day Saint (LDS) Church, think of Mormon fundamentalism, their minds often drift immediately to groups like the FLDS or the AUB, tracing their origins back to the Lorin Woolley story. These groups represent 80 to 90% of fundamentalists who trace their authority back to the story of John Taylor receiving an 1886 revelation to keep plural marriage alive.

However, the history of fundamentalism is far more complex, encompassing groups like the Kingstons and the LeBarons, who assert a distinct and separate line of authority. The LeBaron family lineage, from which the Church of the Firstborn descends, presents one of the most peculiar and historically rich claims in fundamentalist Mormonism, tracing its authority back to the Nauvoo period of Joseph Smith’s ministry.

The LeBaron name often carries stigma due to Ervil LeBaron, who led the Church of the Lamb of God and was a convicted murderer. This historical exploration focuses on the lineage claimed by the Ross LeBaron line, or “Firstborners,” who are not associated with Ervil’s violence.

Roots of LeBaron Authority: Nauvoo PriesthoodTo understand the LeBaron claim, one must examine the higher orders of priesthood introduced by Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. This era saw the introduction of new temple rituals, doctrines pertaining to godhood, and work for the dead. Central to this was the concept of the “fullness of the priesthood” or “highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood,” associated with making men and women kings and priests and queens and priestesses.

Joseph Smith taught that this authority derived from keys restored in the Kirtland Temple by Moses, Elias, and Elijah. Statements from the time suggest that those who received this highest authority—such as the second anointing—held the potential to restore the entire church and kingdom, possessing power to officiate in any office from the lowest to the highest. This higher authority was sometimes referred to as patriarchal priesthood.

This higher order was perceived as priesthood above the church. During the trial of Sidney Rigdon, for example, Heber C. Kimball stated that Rigdon, despite being a member of the First Presidency, did not hold the same “higher authority” possessed by more than 30 other men. This higher authority may have referred to members of the Anointed Quorum or the Council of Fifty.

Council of Fifty & Sealing PowerThe Council of Fifty, established in the last months before Joseph Smith’s death, was intended to be the political kingdom of God on earth, functioning as a literal government. However, historical sources suggest it was viewed by many, including Lyman Wight and critical “Brewster-ites,” as a presiding priesthood body that held authority no church tribunal could control. Brigham Young himself stated that the Council of Fifty would be the “governing and presiding body of this kingdom,” defying anyone to draw a dividing line between its spiritual and temporal affairs.

This Council of Fifty was also the setting for Joseph Smith’s “last charge” speech, where he is traditionally recorded as rolling the responsibility of establishing the kingdom onto the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. However, some accounts, including a statement from Brigham Young in the 1845 Council of Fifty minutes, corrected the notion that the charge was solely to the Twelve, asserting that it was a charge to the entire Council of Fifty to “bear off the kingdom to all the world.”

Benjamin F Johnson: The Claim HolderThe LeBaron authority traces directly to a specific member of the Council of Fifty and an intimate friend of Joseph Smith: Benjamin F Johnson.

Johnson was among the men added to the Council of Fifty on March 26, 1844, during a meeting where Joseph Smith “continued his instructions on heavenly matter[s].” Johnson was also the last living original member of the Council of Fifty, a fact he repeatedly emphasized in his later writings. Johnson was taught by Joseph Smith about temple ordinances, plural marriage, endowments, garments, and the second anointing from the beginning.

Crucially, Johnson claimed that Joseph Smith authorized him “to teach this to others when I was led to do so.” In a 1903 letter to the First Presidency, Johnson referred to other things that Joseph taught to us in this council that I am not at liberty to write, emphasizing that Joseph had told him: Benjamin, those things that have been committed to you, you are authorized to commit them to others when you are led to do so by the… Holy Spirit. Johnson was claiming exclusive secret knowledge and independent authority stemming from his temple experience and Joseph Smith’s charge.

LeBaron Lineage: Dayer’s ClaimThe distinct LeBaron fundamentalist claim arises because Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. (Dayer), the family patriarch, was Benjamin F. Johnson’s grandson.

Dayer received a patriarchal blessing from Johnson in the mid-1890s when Dayer was about ten years old, which family tradition holds appointed him to be the birthright of Joseph Smith. This connection was bolstered by the family tradition that the LeBarons were spiritually Joseph Smith’s posterity, drawing on the Nauvoo/early Utah concept of leverite marriage where children born after a sealing to Joseph would be considered his eternal seed. The blessing record itself mentioned holding the “birthright in… thy father’s house,” using the exact verbiage John Taylor had used for appointing family birthrights in the Nauvoo Temple.

According to the LeBaron family, Johnson charged Dayer near his death (1903–1905) to “carry on the kingdom” and conferred upon him all the priesthood that Johnson had received from Joseph Smith. Dayer spent his life attempting to establish a colony in Mexico and entered plural marriage in the 1920s, which led to his excommunication from the LDS Church.

Dayer was generally secretive about his authority claim, often referred to by his daughter as “The Silent Prophet.” However, antagonist witnesses, such as Margarito Bautista, recalled Dayer speaking of receiving a special authority claim as early as 1910–1913, only five years after Johnson’s death.

LeBaron Succession Crisis: Utah vs. MexicoDayer’s secrecy contributed to a succession crisis upon his death around 1951, mirroring the succession crisis that followed Joseph Smith’s death. Dayer had been hesitant to appoint a successor, stating he could not do so unless the Holy Ghost directed him.

The two most prominent sons in the authority claim were Benjamin (Ben), the oldest, and Ross Wesley LeBaron (the second oldest.) Unfortunately, Ben suffered from mental illness after being ordained by his father, claiming to be “the one mighty and strong”8788. Dayer’s reluctance to teach his younger children about his claim was partially linked to Ben’s mental demise.

The crisis culminated with the three primary contenders:

Ben (oldest): Sketchy claims of receiving a blessing on Dayer’s deathbed, though sources indicate Dayer was coerced and barely able to communicate due to his failing health.
Joel LeBaron (younger son): Joel started the main “Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times” in Mexico in 1955, but his claim was initially vague, based on Dayer saying the “birthright is yours if I don’t give it to one of the other boys.”
Ross Wesley LeBaron (second oldest): Ross, who primarily lived in Utah, asserted his claim based on a 1950 patriarchal blessing from Dayer that conferred upon him “all the keys rights and authority of the patriarchal order of priesthood” (the keys restored in Kirtland.) Ross was not formally appointed the “successor” or given the “birthright.” Instead, he received a revelation instructing him to ask his father for a commission to carry on the patriarchal work, with the principle that “the honor is in the work, not the title.” Ross subsequently founded his own group, the Church of the Firstborn, in Utah in 1955.

The unique authority claim of the Ross LeBaron line, and the Church of the Firstborn today, rests on this direct, non-Woolley lineage stemming from Joseph Smith’s highest priesthood orders in Nauvoo, passed through Benjamin F. Johnson, and ultimately commissioned to Ross Wesley LeBaron to carry on the patriarchal work of the kingdom.

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Let’s look into the unique authority claims of the Church of the Firstborn, also often referred to by the term Ross LeBaron-ite. They claim authority through the Council of 50 in Nauvoo! This group represents an interesting fundamentalist branch because its line of authority is distinct from the majority of other fundamentalist groups, such as the FLDS and AUB, who primarily trace their authority through the Lorin Woolley story.

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Three Lines of Fundamentalist AuthorityMost Mormon fundamentalists—around 80% to 90%—trace their priesthood origin story back to the Lorin Woolley story. This story holds that John Taylor received an 1886 revelation telling him that plural marriage was never to be taken from the earth, leading him to set apart men (including Woolley) to keep the practice alive separate from the church911.

The LeBarons, along with the Kingston group, represent authority claims that are separate from this dominant Woolley line. While the Kingstons claim a “new dispensation” or visitation by messengers to confer authority, the LeBarons trace their authority back to Benjamin F. Johnson and the Nauvoo era, which often sounds like “probably the most peculiar out of any fundamentalist claim.”

Peculiar Priesthood Claim: Nauvoo Roots & Council of 50To understand the LeBaron claim, one must examine the “higher orders of priesthood” introduced by Joseph Smith during the Nauvoo period.

This higher authority was often referred to as the fullness of the priesthood or the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, which entailed being ordained a king and a priest. This authority was conferred through temple ordinances administered to select close followers, initially in the Anointed Quorum (or Holy Order) and later related to the Council of 50.

Key points regarding this Nauvoo priesthood include: Authority Above the Church: Some interpretations of this higher priesthood held that it constituted an authority that “no tribunal in the church could control.” Heber C. Kimball noted that there were “more than 30 men who have got higher authority” than Sidney Rigdon, a member of the First Presidency. * Independent Sealing Power: Joseph Smith’s brother, William Smith, claimed that because of his ordinations as a priest and king, he held “as many sealing keys as could possibly belong to Brigham Young.” This concept suggests that individuals with this “fullness” received the sealing power and could exercise it independent of the presiding keyholder, a view that contrasts with the one-man doctrine articulated by Brigham Young. * The Council of 50:* Joseph Smith organized this body shortly before his death. While often viewed as a political body, historical sources suggest it was intended to be a presiding priesthood/governmental body. Benjamin F. Johnson, the link in the LeBaron lineage, was one of the men added to the Council of 50 in March 1844.

From Johnson to LeBaronThe LeBaron authority is rooted in the claims of Benjamin F. Johnson, who was a close friend of Joseph Smith. Johnson claimed that Joseph taught him about plural marriage, endowments, garments, and the second anointing, and authorized him “to teach it to others when I’m led to when I’m led to do so.” Johnson emphasized in his later writings that he was the “last living original member of the Council of 50.”

Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. (often called Dayer) was a grandson of Benjamin F. Johnson. The LeBaron family tradition claims that in the mid-1890s, Johnson gave Dayer a patriarchal blessing appointing him to be the birthright of Joseph Smith to hold a special family position. The family claims that Johnson charged Dayer to carry on the kingdom and conferred upon him all the priesthood authority that Johnson himself had received from Joseph Smith.

LeBaron Succession CrisisAlma Dayer LeBaron Sr. spent most of his life in Mexico, trying to establish a colony and living plural marriage after being excommunicated from the LDS Church. He maintained a distinct priesthood claim but kept it secretive for much of his life.

Upon Dayer’s death (c. 1951), the LeBaron family faced a succession crisis, similar to the tension seen in the Nauvoo period or the contemporaneous split happening in the Woolley group.

Dayer had several sons who became prominent, notably:

Benjamin F. LeBaron (Ben): The oldest son, initially ordained by Dayer, began to suffer from mental episodes and claimed to be “the one mighty and strong.” Dayer’s hesitation about Ben’s mental state made him cautious about teaching the other children about his authority claim.
Ross Wesley LeBaron (Ross): The second oldest son, who spent most of his life and ministry in Utah. Ross’s group is known as the Church of the Firstborn. Ross claimed that his father conferred upon him the keys and authority of the patriarchal order of priesthood in 1950, which Ross understood to be the keys restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah. Ross was given a commission to carry on the patriarchal work, with the guidance that the “honor is in the work, not the title.”
Joel LeBaron: A younger son who founded the Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times in Mexico in 1955. After Dayer’s death, Joel (along with his younger brother Ervil) initially affiliated with the Woolley/AUB line before establishing his own church.
Ervil LeBaron: Known for violence, murder, and having a “hit list”. He split off from Joel’s church in the 1970s and called his faction the Church of the Lamb of God. The violence associated with Ervil has attached significant stigma to the name LeBaron.

Because Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. died without clearly appointing a successor, the LeBarons broke into different factions, each claiming the authority Dayer had passed down. Ross’s specific brand of LeBaronism focuses on the direct transfer of temple keys and the charge to continue the patriarchal work in Utah, separate from the tragedies and violence that plagued the Mexico-based groups.

What do you think of these claims?

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I’m excited to introduce Jacob Vidrine, a member of Church of the Firstborn. This is a group that is part of the LeBaron fundamentalist group. Jacob is a human encyclopedia of Mormn fundamentalism, and we’re going to dive deep into how the LeBaron group cross-pollinates with other fundamentalist groups. Check it out!

0:00 Intro LeBaron Family
4:16 Lorin Woolley Authority Claims
15:20 Kingston & LeBaron Claims
19:18 High Priest Apostles
21:05 Sidney Rigdon Trial
23:53 2nd Anointing-Patriarchal Succession

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When discussing Mormon Fundamentalism, most people—especially members of the LDS Church—immediately think of the FLDS or AUB (Apostolic United Brethren). These groups largely trace their origin back to the authority line popularized by Lorin Woolley. However, there is a fascinating and often misunderstood branch of fundamentalism that descends from a completely different line of authority: the LeBarons. As a helpful overview of this distinctive lineage, we spoke with Jacob Vidrine of the Church of the Firstborn, sometimes colloquially referred to as Ross LeBaron-ites.

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The LeBaron Divide: Ross vs. ErvilThe name LeBaron often carries a dark stigma, primarily due to the terrible acts committed by Ervil LeBaron, who was a murderer and died in jail. It is important to note that Vidrine is not associated with Ervil’s group6….

The LeBaron family, descending from patriarch Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. (“Dayer”), primarily split into two main groups:

The Mexico LeBarons: Started by younger son Joel LeBaron in 1955 as the “Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times.” Joel’s church grew significantly before the violent schism with Ervil.
The Ross LeBaron Line (Church of the Firstborn): Ross LeBaron, the second oldest son, separated and spent his ministry largely in the Utah area, minimizing affiliation with the strife and violence that occurred down in Mexico. Ross’s movement is the one Jacob Vidrine is associated with.

Authority: Woolley’s 1886 Revelation vs. The LeBaron LineageApproximately 80% to 90% of fundamentalists trace their priesthood authority back to the Lorin Woolley story. This claim rests on the assertion that John Taylor received a revelation in 1886 confirming that plural marriage should never be removed from the earth, after which he set apart men (including Woolley) to keep the practice alive.

Historically, however, the LeBarons and Kingstons maintain a distinct authority claim. The LeBaron claim is deemed by some to be “the most peculiar out of any fundamentalist claim”, as it bypasses the 1886 revelation entirely and goes straight back to the Nauvoo era through Benjamin F. Johnson.

Johnson Connection & BirthrightBenjamin F. Johnson was a close friend of Joseph Smith and was one of the men added to the Council of 50 in March 1844. Johnson was heavily invested in the secretive Nauvoo doctrines and claimed that Joseph Smith taught him about plural marriage, the endowment, garments, and the second anointing. Crucially, Johnson claimed that Joseph Smith authorized him “to teach this to others when I’m was led to when I’m led to do” by the Holy Spirit.

Alma Dayer LeBaron, the patriarch of the LeBaron family, was Benjamin F. Johnson’s grandson. Family tradition holds that Johnson conferred upon Dayer a patriarchal blessing in the mid-1890s, appointing him to the “birthright of Joseph Smith” to preside over the family. Near his death (1905), Johnson allegedly charged Dayer to carry on the kingdom and conferred all the priesthood authority that Johnson had received from Joseph Smith.

Alma Dayer LeBaron was secretive about this authority claim for much of his life (earning him the nickname “The Silent Prophet” by his daughter.) However, his son, Ross LeBaron, claimed that in 1950, his father conferred upon him “all the keys, rights, and authority of the patriarchal order of priesthood,” which Ross understood to be the temple keys restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in Kirtland.

Highest Order of Priesthood: Nauvoo Temple AuthorityThe entire foundation of the LeBaron claim rests on the idea that Joseph Smith established a higher order of priesthood in Nauvoo that operates independently of the mainstream church structure.

Joseph Smith taught that this higher authority was the “fullness of the priesthood” or the “highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood”. This fullness, Joseph and Brigham Young taught, was the authority required “to be a king and a priest”.

This authority was conferred through select temple ordinances and included the sealing power.

The Second Anointing and Sealing Power: Joseph was conferring the authority of being a king and a priest in the temple ordinances, though later the apostles changed this to be merely preparatory. For fundamentalists, if a person receives the second anointing and the sealing power, “excommunication just doesn’t matter” because it is a “higher authority”.
The Council of 50: The LeBaron focus on Benjamin F. Johnson ties directly to the Council of 50, which was organized by Joseph Smith shortly before his death. While some historians argue it was only a political body, critics and members like William Smith argued that the Council of 50 was ordained as kings and priests, constituting authority that “no tribunal in the church could control”.

The authority claim for the Church of the Firstborn is therefore rooted in this secretive, independent, and higher-level authority that they believe Joseph Smith conferred outside of the church’s main organizational structure, passing from Joseph Smith to Benjamin F. Johnson, and eventually down to the LeBaron family.

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Joseph Fielding Smith is the architect of controversial LDS orthodoxy. He has some controversial writings about Blacks and Ezra Taft Benson. We’ll also delve into his role with Lowell Bennion, a BYU professor who was fired. Was JFS responsible or was it someone else? Matthew Bowman answers. We’ll also dive into his role in shaping orthodoxy in the 20th century. Don’t forget to check out Matt’s amazing biography on Joseph Fielding Smith! Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/_aBWPp4i1OY

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Joseph Fielding Smith: Architect of Controversial LDS OrthodoxyJoseph Fielding Smith described as a “lightning rod” due to some views considered politically incorrect today, particularly regarding race. Dr. Matt Bowman, author of “Joseph Fielding Smith, a Mormon Theologian,” sheds light on Smith’s impact on the church.

One of the most uncomfortable aspects of Smith’s legacy is his writings about Black individuals, especially concerning the priesthood. In his work, The Way to Perfection, Smith explicitly stated his subscription to the theory that people of African descent were less righteous in the pre-existence. He used language suggesting they were “not entitled to be born white.” Smith was a staunch “defender of the racial restrictions” in the Church and became a major exponent of the idea, which the source traces back to Orson Hyde, that Black people possessed souls less righteous in the pre-existence. This stance led to prominent public clashes, notably with church educator Lowell Bennion at a symposium in the early 1950s. Their argument over the ban contributed to Bennion’s eventual dismissal by Ernest Wilkinson, who was president of BYU and commissioner of church education. Wilkinson viewed Bennion as too liberal on race and saw Smith as an ally in this regard. While Wilkinson was the person who carried out the dismissal, the collision with Fielding Smith helped instigate the decision.

Disagreement with BensonSmith also had complex relationships, even with those seen as ideologically sympathetic. Despite being viewed as a fellow conservative, Smith had significant disagreements with Ezra Taft Benson. A letter from Smith exists in which he hoped Benson’s “blood will be purified” upon his return from a mission in Europe in the 1960s. Smith was skeptical of the Church becoming heavily involved in American politics, viewing Benson’s fascination with politics as distasteful and inappropriate for an apostle. He considered it “unseemly” and “disreputable.” Smith also saw Benson as a conspiracy theorist, distinguishing standard conservative politics (like that of Dwight Eisenhower or David McKay) from conspiracy theory. Smith hoped Benson’s time away would rid him of these inclinations, allowing him to return as an apostle rather than an aspiring amateur politician. This highlights that “real deep divides” can exist even within the conservative camp.

Controversial LDS OrthodoxyPerhaps Smith’s most enduring theological contribution was his role in developing the idea of orthodoxy within the Latter-day Saint tradition. Orthodoxy, an older Protestant concept particularly associated with John Calvin, posits that being a faithful member requires believing certain things and that incorrect beliefs can jeopardize salvation. This was not a central idea in the early Christian Church’s first century. Smith, possibly influenced by Protestant fundamentalism, began insisting in the mid-20th century that belief is actually really important and that believing “the correct ideas” were crucial because incorrect beliefs could “ruin your salvation.” He defended this notion vigorously. Historically, while early Christianity saw debates over ideas like the Trinity, and Roman Catholicism emphasized sacraments and art for teaching, the strong push for average members to understand and adhere to correct doctrine emerged from the Reformed Protestant tradition.

Smith’s emphasis on orthodoxy gained significant traction in the church. When he became President, many members of the Quorum of the Twelve were individuals he had mentored and who shared his views, such as Harold B. Lee, Mark Peterson, and Marion G. Romney. These leaders became “movers and shakers” who believed in Smith’s ideas. There was an explicit push for institutions like BYU to teach Smith’s works, placing his ideas “at the center of what it meant to be a member of the church.” The correlation movement and curriculum standardization were built upon Smith’s ideas and writings, influencing the church through the late 20th century.

Controversial LDS OrthodoxyHowever, the source suggests a shift began in the 1990s, moving away from this retrenchment orthodox position towards devotionalism. This newer emphasis highlights that being a good member is about living a good life, being ethical, attending church, and studying scriptures. The focus shifted from basing lessons on doctrinal works like Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” to emphasizing ethical behavior and community building. The discontinuation of “Mormon Doctrine” is seen as symbolic of this fading emphasis ozn strict orthodoxy. Bishops today are often more concerned with community involvement and service than with members’ theological positions on topics like evolution.

While the emphasis on “Smith style orthodoxy” may be waning, “Smith style defensiveness” is taking on new manifestations. Recent events at BYU and disciplinary actions are cited as examples. These issues are often framed not as theological disputes, but as centering around issues of gender, practice, and how people live. While related to moral issues Smith and McConkie addressed, the current focus is more on social organization and conduct. This reflects a renewed sense of being understood siege mentality and a need to “put up a fight” against secularization, reminiscent of Joseph Fielding Smith’s defensiveness, though applied more to issues of practice than abstract belief.

Do you think JFS’s influence is waning 50 years after his death, especially with regards to race ban, defensiveness, and controversial LDS orthodoxy?

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A key figure who accelerated the historical crisis for both the Tanners (who left the group in 1962) and Pauline’s church was Wes Walters, a Presbyterian minister from Marissa, Illinois.

Walters was asked to write an article on Mormons for Christianity Today. His detailed research focused on testing Joseph Smith’s claims against tangible historical records, particularly those surrounding the First Vision. Walters reasoned that while you couldn’t prove whether Smith spoke to God, you could prove whether he was standing in a given place on a given day.

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Walters used his expertise in church history (specifically Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian records in the New York area) to investigate Joseph Smith’s claim that the First Vision was prompted by an intense local revival where ministers were fighting over converts.

Walters’ findings: the great revival and the subsequent fighting over converts among the denominations did not happen in 1820. Instead, significant church growth (hundreds of converts) occurred between 1823, 1824, and 1825. This discovery forced a complete recalibration of the chronology, as it meant the First Vision and the subsequent Moroni visits leading up to the plates could not logically fit the existing timeline.

Walters’ small pamphlet, New Light on Mormon Origins, caused such a disruption that it “threw the Mormon Church into a tizzy,” forcing LDS historians to travel back East to conduct their own major studies. Walters is credited by Sandra Tanner as being a key factor in pushing the LDS Church into serious historical scholarship.

Magic Connection: A Bridge Too FarWhile Walters’ dating research was shocking, his discovery of the 1826 trial documents cemented the crisis.

Pauline’s group, following David Whitmer, already accepted the story that Joseph Smith used a “rock” in his “hat” to translate the Book of Mormon, aligning with the “seer stone” narrative. However, the 1826 trial confirmed Joseph Smith’s involvement in money digging, associating the seer stone with divination and magic practices—the occult that the Christians in Pauline’s group firmly rejected.

The group found this connection irreconcilable:

They questioned why God would use an instrument associated with magic.
They noted that Joseph Smith seemed to bypass the instruments God allegedly supplied (the plates) and continued using the same rock used in divination.
The transition from seeking treasure (magic) to seeking revelation (religion) looked too “fishy,” suggesting it was merely a “switching of what you’re using this stone for”.
The fact that the same individuals involved in drawing magic circles and searching for treasure were the same first converts to Mormonism was deeply troubling.

Pauline Hancock’s Church Voted to DisbandThe Church of Christ (Bible Book of Mormon), founded and led by Pauline Hancock, emerged as a unique splinter group focused on returning to what they believed was “1830 Mormonism”—a faith centered purely on the Bible and the Book of Mormon, devoid of later revelations (like the Doctrine and Covenants past 1830) and “Aaronic, Melchizedek Priesthood ideas”.

However, this small community, known for meeting in the “Basement church” in Independence, ultimately discovered that even their foundational scripture, the Book of Mormon, could not withstand intense historical scrutiny, leading to its dissolution years after Pauline Hancock’s death in 1962.

The Vote & DissolutionFaced with this overwhelming historical evidence, the Church of Christ had to make a choice regarding their “litmus test”—the Book of Mormon.

In 1972, approximately a decade after Pauline’s death (she died in the summer of 1962), the church took a formal vote on whether to retain the Book of Mormon as scripture.

The majority voted no, choosing to jettison the Book of Mormon.

The consequences were immediate:

Families who wanted to retain the Book of Mormon left and joined other smaller splinter groups, such as the Hedrickites.
The remaining members decided they would continue to meet as Christians studying only the Bible.
After a few more years, however, they concluded that since they were just Bible-believing Christians, they no longer had a purpose to stand independently from the rest of the Christian world. They decided to disband, sell the building, and disperse into various Christian churches.

The building, which had been the “Basement church,” was eventually purchased by another restoration group. Olive Wilcox, who led the group after Pauline, stated that she believed Pauline herself, had she lived to see the comprehensive research done by Walters, would also have chosen to give up the Book of Mormon.

What are your thoughts?

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Jerald and Sandra Tanner received an apostolic scolding by LeGrand Richards over the First Vision! By the early 1960s, Sandra and Jerald Tanner were deep into critical analysis of Mormon history, having transitioned from struggling Utah Mormons to committed followers of a Christ-focused faith centered on the Bible and the Book of Mormon. This new path led them to join Pauline Hancock’s “Basement Church” in Independence, Missouri, formally known as the Church of Christ (Bible & Book of Mormon).

https://youtu.be/uuMY1kq_k_M

0:00 Attending Pauline’s church
5:28 Pauline’s Cancer/Sandra’s baptism
17:02 Apostle LeGrand Richards

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While Jerald had previously traveled to Independence and was baptized, Sandra eventually went by train to meet the group. She was baptized by Pauline in the summer of 1960, making a profession of faith in Christ and affirming her belief in the Book of Mormon. Pauline, described as a lovely woman, was very convinced of her position and served as the preacher for the group, though she never claimed the title of prophet.

This period of adherence to the “Whitmerite” view—rejecting revelations past 1830 and scrapping “Aaronic & Melchizedek priesthood ideas”—was short-lived as the Tanners’ historical questions mounted. Their quest soon took a dramatic turn, involving a top church leader and a disputed document.

Letter to the BrethrenIn June 1960, just before moving from California to Salt Lake, Sandra sent a formal letter to all the apostles announcing that she was leaving the LDS Church. Her letter detailed several critical issues, including problems with the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants changes, differences in the doctrine of God over time, and the evolving narrative of the First Vision. She noted that earlier references to the First Vision seemed to speak of an “angel” or “messenger”, not the Father and the Son, suggesting the latter was a later change.

Apostle LeGrand Richards responded to Sandra’s letter, attempting to prove her wrong. He claimed that his great-grandfather, Joseph Lee Robinson, wrote in his diary in 1841 that Joseph Smith had told him he saw the Father and the Son. Richards reasoned that such an early reference would undermine Sandra’s claim of a shifting narrative.

Confrontation over Microfilm & Apostolic ScoldingThe Tanners arranged a meeting with Apostle Richards at the Church Office Building in Salt Lake City to see the original document. Richards was immediately “miffed” when Sandra brought Jerald, who he perceived as a “doubting Thomas.”

Instead of the original diary, Richards presented them with a typed extract containing the crucial two lines about the Father and Son. Jerald immediately pointed out that this was not the whole page and was not the actual diary. When Jerald asked to turn back the microfilm to check the date and context of the excerpt, Richards refused, accusing the Tanners of “questioning everything” he showed them.

The confrontation escalated dramatically in the genealogical building, where Richards had taken them to view the film. Richards seized the film from the reader, declaring to the staff: “These people are not to see this. If they come back in, you’re not to get this out to show it to them. They’re just troublemakers. They do not have authority to see this again.” Jerald and Richards stomped out of the room arguing, while everyone in the room watched the shocking spectacle of someone arguing with an apostle.

Unmasking the 1841 DiaryRichards’ efforts to suppress the film failed. After months of checking, Sandra eventually returned downtown. She filled out a call card using the film number she had previously written down. The girl at the desk noted the card had been pulled from the catalog but retrieved the film anyway, assuming Sandra was authorized since she had the number.

Sandra quickly turned to the relevant entry and discovered the truth: the document was not Joseph Lee Robinson’s 1841 diary, but rather his memoirs, written 40 years later in Utah in the 1880s. This discovery rendered the testimony unreliable as an early historical account, reinforcing the Tanners’ conclusion that the Church leadership was willing to suppress or misrepresent historical evidence to maintain the official narrative.

The End of the Church of ChristMeanwhile, the faith community that had baptized Sandra was facing its own crisis.

Pauline Hancock had suffered from breast cancer. During a trip to Salt Lake, she had shown Jerald and Sandra the open wound under her arm to ensure they would be witnesses that she truly had cancer. She was praying for healing, but prepared for either outcome, stating that if she didn’t get healed, it would be due to her own “lack of faith”, not a mark against God.

Pauline Hancock died of her cancer in the summer of 1962.Around the same time, the Tanners concluded they could no longer accept the Book of Mormon, based on their intensive studies of its internal structure, archaeology, and chronology, deciding that “historically it just doesn’t make it.” They ultimately set the book aside.

When the Tanners sent their material questioning the Book of Mormon to the Church of Christ leadership (the Wilcoxes had taken over after Pauline died), they did not realize Pauline had already passed away.

Following Pauline’s death, her “Basement Church” dissolved. Some families who wanted to hold onto the Book of Mormon joined other splinter groups, while others decided to “follow Christ and stick with the Bible.”

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Sandra Tanner discusses one of the most intriguing episodes in Mormon history: her early inquiry into the missing 1832 First Vision account. (She didn’t know it was missing at the time. The account was allegedly ripped out of the Joseph Smith journal by Church Historian Joseph Fielding Smith. This pursuit led Sandra directly into correspondence with Joseph Fielding Smith, then Church Historian, concerning what she believed was the original, definitive record of Joseph Smith’s earliest spiritual experience.

https://youtu.be/1pDKtA4RfmE

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0:00 Tanner’s Secret Polygamy
4:57 Sandra’s Teen LDS Experiences
19:06 Sandra’s Role in Missing First Vision Account?

The Path to Critical InquirySandra Tanner’s journey into questioning Mormon orthodoxy was significantly shaped by her mother, who was already deep into researching early Mormonism in the late 1950s. Sandra’s mother insisted on finding chapter and verse for religious claims, refusing to simply take the word of “the brethren” or rely solely on church manuals, often disrupting Sunday school classes with her inquisitive mind.

Sandra’s first met Jerald Tanner in the 1950s. He introduced her to David Whitmer’s thinking and the ideas of Pauline Hancock’s group, the Church of Christ-Bible & Book of Mormon). This set the stage for intense study.

A major focal point of this research was the nature of God and how the changing views of God affected the narrative of the First Vision. Sandra noted that the Book of Mormon, in its earliest form, presented a view of God that did not align with the current Mormon understanding of a separate Father and Son.

Conflicting First Vision NarrativesAs Sandra, Jerald, and her mother poured over available documents, they focused on inconsistencies surrounding the First Vision:

Fawn Brodie’s Observation: The first edition of No Man Knows My History had raised the issue that the earliest references to an experience before the 1823 angel Moroni visitation often seemed to refer only to an angel or messenger, not the Father and Son.
The Historical Record Change: Sandra’s aunt acquired a copy of Andrew Jensen’s Historical Record (from the 1880s), which contained an account where Joseph went into the woods to pray and a “messenger, an angel” appeared to him. However, her aunt’s copy was a later reprint (circa 1890 or 1891) that changed the text to say “the Christ appears to him,” raising questions about when the shift occurred and why the Father was excluded in that version.

Sandra and her associates reasoned that if the First Vision story was constantly evolving, they needed to see the genesis of the account.

The Letter & Missing 1832 First Vision AccountIn the early 1960s (circa 1961), Sandra, Jerald, and her mother formulated a letter outlining these historical questions to be sent to then-Church Historian, Joseph Fielding Smith. Sandra simply assumed that an initial written account must exist and requested a photocopy of the “original Joseph Smith handwritten account of the First Vision”.

Little did Sandra know that some people, like her friend Lamar Peterson, did know about a “strange account” (the 1832 version) that had been shown to him by Levi Edgar Young, who was sworn to secrecy by Joseph Fielding Smith.

Sandra’s request, though based on assumption, might have caused immediate alarm in the Church Historian’s Office. Sandra speculates that Joseph Fielding Smith had previously cut the 1832 account out of the ledger book because he realized it was problematic. When Smith received Sandra’s letter, he may have assumed she possessed insider knowledge. To get ahead of any arguments about hiding evidence, Smith subsequently taped the pages back into the ledger book.

“I think he cut it out back in the time of Levi Edgar Young. I mean, this is my assumption that at that time he cut it out because he realized it was problematic and he didn’t want anyone else coming across this.”

Joseph Fielding Smith’s RebukeJoseph Fielding Smith did not send Sandra the document she requested. Instead, he wrote back to her bishop (Bishop Warren Kennedy). When the bishop read the response to Sandra, the letter was highly critical, asserting that if the “young woman would stop listening to the enemies of the church and seek for a testimony instead, she wouldn’t have these kind of questions“. Smith went on to call Sandra out for her “apostate spirit”.

Crucially, Smith ended the letter with a curious line: ” if I showed her such a thing would that even convince her”.

Sandra realized later that this specific wording was used because Smith knew that the 1832 account—which primarily details Christ appearing to Joseph (not the Father and Son)—would not convince her to return to the mainstream narrative but would actually reinforce her argument about the shifting view of God.

The controversy over the 1832 account, however, did eventually enter official channels. Joseph Fielding Smith utilized Paul Cheesman’s BYU thesis in 1965 as the official mode for publication, allowing the church to place the account on the record and refute arguments that they were hiding history.

What do you think of Sandra’s recounting?

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No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith

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Will there be murderers in Celestial Kingdom? An Institute Teacher’s answer challenged Sandra Tanner’s faith back in the 1950s. We’ll talk about this unusual case and how it contributed to Sandra joining Pauline Hancock’s Basement Church (known as Church of Christ) in Independence Missouri. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/4c6tu0SYs6

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From Brigham Young Defender to Critic: Influences That Sparked Tanners’ JourneyThe history of early Mormonism and its subsequent splinter groups is complex, but few journeys into critical thinking are as personal and profound as that of Sandra Tanner. Raised defending the faith, her path to becoming a leading critic of Mormonism was catalyzed by several unexpected influences, including the work of a pioneering female Restoration leader and the startling discovery of historical documents.

The Vision of Pauline HancockSandra Tanner’s husband, Jerald Tanner, was deeply influenced by an obscure Restoration group led by Pauline Hancock. Pauline was a head of her group, called the Church of Christ (Bible Book of Mormon), serving as its minister and preacher. Though she never claimed to be a prophet, she was considered a “deliverer of the message”.

Crucially, Pauline did claim to have a vision of Christ before the group started meeting as a church. This vision occurred during a transition when she was trying to sort out what she believed, focusing on the “original kernel of Mormonism”. She told Christ she couldn’t fulfill the calling to tell the world what she had learned because she was a woman, but Christ responded, “I was a man, and they didn’t listen to me. So, it doesn’t matter that you’re a woman. You are called to go out and tell what you’ve learned”.

Pauline’s group focused on studying the Book of Mormon outside of various splinter groups. Their theology centered on the “oneness idea of God,” a modalistic model (though they would not have used the term “modalism”). They aimed for a rejuvenation of the David Whitmer flavor of Mormonism, seeking to go “back to original Mormonism” using just the Bible and Book of Mormon.

Jerald Tanner’s Cottage MeetingsJerald Tanner became converted to Pauline’s message after two visits to Missouri. At age 20 (around 1957 or 1958), Jerald returned to Salt Lake and began holding little cottage meetings at his parents’ house. He would play reel-to-reel tapes of Pauline’s different sermons or teachings. The purpose of these meetings was to discuss early Mormonism and explain where the Church “went off the track”.

Sandra’s grandmother, a relative by marriage to the Brigham Young family, received an invitation to one of these meetings via a postcard. Sandra, visiting from Southern California during spring break, drove her grandmother to the meeting. Grandmother claimed it was “sort of like a Mormon fireside”. Jerald, whom she found “nice looking” and “cute,” impressed her with his studies on Mormonism’s problems and the group’s focus on returning to the Book of Mormon.

From Defense to DoubtSandra’s journey of doubt had already been seeded by others.

First, her mother and aunt began studying Mormon history in the 1950s after reading Fawn Brodie’s book, No Man Knows My History. They were pouring over “apostate literature” and photocopies. Sandra, then in high school, was busy defending the faith, while her mother and aunt were “going into apostasy”. Sandra noted that her mother became known as being “too inquisitive” in Sunday school classes, often disrupting the class with questions.

Sandra’s mother and aunt found James Wardle’s barbershop, possibly through Sam Weller’s bookstore (which stocked anti-Mormon and polygamy literature). James Wardle was the link that put Sandra’s mother in contact with Pauline Hancock’s group.

Second, Sandra recounts her first challenge in Mormonism occurring in 8th grade when a Christian girl questioned her about what Mormons believed about God. Sandra proudly quoted the popular saying from the 1950s: ” as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” The girl called this “blasphemy” and walked away, leaving Sandra stunned.

Will there be Murderers in Celestial Kingdom?Third, while attending the Institute of Religion in Southern California in the late 1950s, Sandra was troubled by a conversation with her Institute teacher about an acquaintence convicted of murder. The teacher said that the person could never be baptized, receive the temple ordinances (endowments/sealings,) or reach the celestial kingdom. This answer shocked Sandra, who questioned how this system fit the “gospel of Jesus” if the “good news” meant, “Unfortunately, you don’t qualify”. (It is noted that current 2025 church policy allows a person convicted of murder to be baptized and go to the temple after completing their sentence, with First Presidency approval, but the practical difficulties for a prisoner remained. If he was on death row, he would never qualify.) It is unknown what official Church policy was in 1958.

The Deal Breaker: Brigham Young’s SermonsAfter meeting Jerald, their courtship centered on studying Mormon history. Sandra, who was raised to practically worship Brigham Young, told Jerald she was a “great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young”. Jerald challenged her to read his sermons.

Jerald brought copies of sermons addressing Adam-God theology, polygamy, and the Civil War. But the ultimate “real deal breaker” for Sandra was reading the blood atonement sermons. Specifically, she was horrified by the passage where Brigham Young discusses finding his brother in bed with his wife:

“I would immediately put a javelin through them both and this would save them… I would be justified and… this is loving your neighbor as yourself.”

This teaching, which claimed there were “certain sins you could commit [that] the blood of Christ won’t cover,” was entirely opposite to the benign image she had of Brigham Young. Sandra immediately rejected Brigham Young out of hand: “God did not tell Brigham Young to teach this sermon. This cannot be from God… That guy’s toast.”

After that moment, Sandra was ready to read anything Jerald had. She purchased a copy of the 1833 Book of Commandments and compared it against the current Doctrine and Covenants, confirming David Whitmer’s claim that Joseph Smith had changed revelations.

Despite her own mother’s severe worries that Sandra was being “sucked in” to a “fanatic cult group” in Missouri (even though her mother acknowledged church problems, she would not leave the role of a Mormon), Sandra and Jerald had a whirlwind romance and were married by a Protestant minister. Their partnership in critiquing Mormon history had begun.

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Before Stassi Cramm became the first woman to lead the Community of Christ, Pauline Hancock led the Church of Christ. Sandra Tanner was baptized in about 1960 into Pauline Hancock’s Church of Christ. We’ll discuss Pauline’s church, Sandra’s conversion and de-conversion, and more in this amazing conversation. Check it out!

https://youtu.be/3V-7stAyZ9w

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0:00 Updating Sandra Tanner
5:15 (In)Famous Sandra
9:39 Is Sandra Tanner Anti-Mormon?
12:05 Pauline Hancock’s Origins
24:48 How Jerald Joined Pauline
32:43 Book of Mormon Has Trinitarian Roots
34:22 Jerald Visits Pauline

Pioneers of Criticism: Sandra Tanner, Pauline Hancock, & Quest for the Original Church of ChristSandra Tanner is well-known today as a staunch critic and historian of Mormonism, chronicled recently in the biography Lighthouse: Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Despised and Beloved Mormon Critics of Mormonism. While Sandra is now enjoying life in a condominium in Sandy, Utah, having retired from the stresses of her old neighborhood in Salt Lake City, her journey as a critic began in the late 1950s alongside her husband, Jerald Tanner56.

This period of questioning led the newlywed Tanners to explore various splinter groups, resulting in Sandra becoming a temporary convert to a unique movement led by one of the earliest known female leaders in the Restoration: Pauline Hancock’s Church of Christ.

Critic, Not Anti-MormonBefore diving into her early faith experience, Sandra is careful to distinguish her identity. She notes that she is comfortable being labeled a “Mormon critic,” but strongly rejects the term “anti-Mormon.” This is because the “anti-Mormon” label often implies an animosity toward the people, which she does not feel. She condemns any violence against Mormon people. She sees herself as a critic of Mormonism—its doctrines and history—not its followers.

Jerald Tanner’s Search for the “Start”The Tanners’ joint investigation into Mormonism began around 1959. Jerald’s personal crisis was spurred around age 18 when his bishop suggested he go on a mission. Jerald began reading critical works, notably Fawn Brodie’s book (written in 1945), which was the standard critical source at the time.

His investigation led him to seek out local splinter groups, first visiting the Reorganized Church in Salt Lake City. There, he met a barber named James Wardle, who operated a shop that housed one of the largest collections of historic books on early Mormonism. Wardle provided Jerald with a key text that shaped his direction: David Whitmer’s pamphlet, An Address to All Believers in Christ (1887).

Whitmer’s position was that the Book of Mormon was the main thing and that Joseph Smith “got a big head, invented all this other stuff.” This idea became Jerald’s litmus test: if there was any truth to Mormonism, it had to be at the start, centered on the Book of Mormon. Jerald even took a trip to Independence, Missouri, to verify Whitmer’s claims that the revelations had been changed, specifically noting discrepancies between the current version of the Doctrine and Covenants and the early Book of Commandments.

Pauline Hancock and the “Luke-ite” Church of ChristJames Wardle also informed Jerald about Pauline Hancock’s small Church of Christ group, noting that they aligned more closely with David Whitmer’s views than other splinter groups.

Pauline Hancock was raised in the Reorganized (RLDS) Church, where her father had served as a pastor in Salt Lake City. She became disillusioned with both the RLDS and the Temple Lot Church. She, her husband, and others who went through similar struggles were deeply impacted by Whitmer’s pamphlet.

This group, sometimes referred to as “the Luke-ites” because they first met in the home of a Mr. Luke, established their own theological foundation:

Book of Mormon Fundamentalism: They adopted the Book of Mormon and the Bible as their core scriptures.
Rejection of Later Revelation: Crucially, they did not accept revelations past 1830. They threw out the Doctrine and Covenants, the Book of Commandments, and the associated priesthood ideas, believing Joseph Smith was only called to bring forth the Book of Mormon, not to set up a church.
Worship Space: They built a small “basement church” at the corner of Crysler and Lyndon in Independence, Missouri. The interior reportedly featured used movie theater chairs.

Jerald visited Pauline’s small group in Independence multiple times in the mid-1950s, staying for weeks at a time. He was deeply influenced by Pauline’s message that “all you really need is Jesus” and that they should scrap the institutional “stuff.” Jerald found a new personal relationship with Christ through reading the Bible and the Book of Mormon, moving away from institutional religion.

While Pauline’s church eventually folded, she was highly influential. The sources note that while she never claimed the title of prophet for her movement, she did claim to have had a vision of Christ before the group formally started meeting as a church.

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This is a throwback episode from 2018. Sandra & Jerald Tanner were the first to identify a Hofmann forgery. They were the first to claim the Salamander Letter was a forgery but they didn’t know it was a Hofmann forgery. Even though they didn’t suspect Mark Hofmann was the forger, they were eventually proved correct. Sandra tells how her husband Jerald came to that conclusion, his later illness & death from dementia, and whether she thinks some books in the Bible could be classified as forgeries. Plus at the end of the video, I’ll give a preview of my next interview with Sandra! Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/SK_6orYOYro

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“Man Bites Dog” Story: How Anti-Mormon Critics Jerald & Sandra Tanner Were the First to Expose Mark Hofmann ForgerySandra Tanner is a long-time critic and historian of Mormonism. She details her interactions with the notorious document forger and murderer, Mark Hofmann. The interviews reveal a profound paradox—what Sandra Tanner called the “man bite dog story”—where the very critics who might have benefited from anti-LDS documents were the ones who first proved them to be frauds.

Here is a breakdown of the shocking discoveries, clever manipulations, and institutional controversies surrounding Hofmann, as shared by Sandra Tanner:

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Shrewd Forger’s Credibility GambitMark Hofmann first approached Sandra Tanner and her husband, Jerald, in 1978 or 1979 after having read their book, Mormonism Shadow or Reality. At this time, Hofmann was an average-looking young man who did not stand out, which actually aided him in his forgery business.

Hofmann’s initial goal was to establish credibility for his future fakes. He visited the Tanners and handed Sandra a photocopy of a one-sheet document—a fraudulent Second Anointing Ceremony. This ritual is considered higher than celestial marriage and promises eternal life (short of murder) to select individuals.

Hofmann spun a detailed, manipulative story, claiming he found the document (purporting to be from the 1912 Salt Lake Temple period) while cleaning out his deceased grandfather’s attic. He insisted he couldn’t share his name because his family was prominent, thus giving the document an air of mystery and protected provenance.

Sandra Tanner realized that Hofmann was attempting to raise the document’s value by having her pass it around, creating a “trail of interest”. However, because the document lacked provenance, Sandra did not publish it, though she did give copies out to people who asked, cautioning them that she could not vouch for it. This established Hofmann’s pattern: planting evidence or information about documents, often having others “find” them (like Jeff Simmonds finding the Anthon transcript pasted in a Bible) to lend them credibility.

Jerald Tanner’s Analysis: Salamander Letter Is Too “Pat”When the Salamander Letter (a document critical of Joseph Smith, linking him to magic and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in a magic setting) was rumored and surfaced, Jerald Tanner was skeptical. Jerald insisted on seeing the whole typescript of the letter to properly evaluate it.

Jerald’s forensic methodology was based on a prior experience: years earlier, he had successfully argued that a document attributed to Oliver Cowdery was a forgery because it contained phrases lifted directly from Cowdery’s known letters, demonstrating a contrived writing style.

Applying this content analysis to the Salamander Letter, Jerald became convinced it was a fraud. He noted that the wording contained phrases lifted from earlier critical texts, specifically Ed Howe’s Mormonism Unveiled and the Joseph Knight letters. Jerald argued that the similarities in phrasing were “too much” and “too pat”.

Sandra, playing “devil’s advocate,” suggested that the repetitive phrasing could simply be Martin Harris’s standard way of telling his story. But Jerald was “absolutely convinced” that the Salamander Letter was “a product of someone studying Martin Harris”.

Jerald published a pamphlet challenging the letter’s wording, risking defamation lawsuits. He was willing to risk everything because he knew the document was forged. This happened despite the fact that Church historians, including Dean Jessee, had accepted the document as authentic after Hofmann supplied them with fake Martin Harris handwriting samples to verify the signature.

Hofmann’s success in fooling the Church historians was compounded by two factors:

Preparation: Hofmann had arranged for other innocuous documents to establish a verified Martin Harris handwriting sample for comparison.
Predisposition: The Church historians were “predisposed to believe such a document would be authentic” because they already knew about Joseph Smith’s early history involving money digging and magic circles.

Attempted Bribery and the Plea Bargain ControversyAfter Jerald published his concerns, Hofmann appeared at the Tanners’ store, accusing them of trying to hurt his business and stop him from acquiring crucial historical documents.

Hofmann tried to halt Jerald’s criticism by appealing to Sandra’s interest in Brigham Young’s commingled funds. Hofmann claimed he was in touch with a descendant of Thomas Bullock (Brigham Young’s secretary) who possessed the “Bullock collection,” which supposedly detailed Young’s misuse of Church money. Hofmann argued that if the Tanners continued challenging his work, the Bullock family would refuse to do business with him, and Sandra would “be the one that stops this acquiring of these important collection of Thomas Bullock”.

Jerald, upon hearing the story, was completely cynical and dismissed it as a lie: “I want to sell you a bridge in Brooklyn,” he responded.

Regarding the outcome of the Hofmann case, Sandra was disappointed that the prosecutors negotiated a plea bargain instead of taking the case to a full trial. She believes the prosecuting attorney, being a “good Mormon,” would have been reluctant to subpoena General Authorities (like Gordon B. Hinckley, who had personally done business with Hofmann) and reveal confidential Church finances in court—issues that would have arisen if they attempted to prove the financial motive behind the murder. Ultimately, the prosecution secured a settlement where Hofmann confessed to everything in exchange for a 15 years to life sentence (which became a life sentence when he attempted to hire a hitman to kill the parole board).

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You can get a Kindle or paperback transcript here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1718038240

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A presentation titled Pregnant Possibilities was given by Mark Tensmeyer, Joseph Stanford, Amanda Hendrix-Komoto, John Kidd, & myself (Rick Bennett.) This was similar to a presentation at Sunstone & John Whitmer Historical Association in August, September, & October 2025. We tackled the question on how many children Joseph Smith should have had with his plural wives. (It is a lot less than you think!) Mark gave a history, Joseph outlined the science behind calculating pregnancy, Rick did the calculations on expected number of children & probability Joseph Smith had no children from his plural wives. John ran 1,000,000 simulations of the scenario to randomize women’s cycles and coitus, and Amanda discussed birth control & abortion in the 19th century. It’s a fascinating presentation that we hope to publish soon. Check out our presentation from August & October. (You may want to view on Youtube to see the slides used in the presentations.)

https://youtu.be/gL0P5F5FZcc

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Pregnant PossibilitiesThe polygamous unions of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo present historians with a persistent and colorful mystery: the apparent lack of known children fathered by Smith with any of his wives other than Emma. Clearly, Joseph Smith was fertile, having fathered nine children with Emma. This question regarding the lack of progeny was the central focus of the 2025 Sunstone Symposium session, “Pregnant Possibilities: Sexuality and Early Mormon Polygamy,” which involved a multidisciplinary approach combining historical research, statistical modeling, and reproductive science.

The presentation drew on the expertise of historian Mark Tensmeyer, JD (focusing on historical claims and Joseph Smith’s movements), Dr. Amanda Hendrix-Komoto (discussing abortion and birth control history), Dr. Joseph Stanford (an MD specializing in fertility and the mechanics of pregnancy), Rick Bennett (a biostatistician who hosted the session and developed the mathematical models), and Dr John Kidd (who ran 1,000,000 simulations.)

Does Marriage Equal Sex?The puzzle of the missing children was vividly encapsulated by Joseph Smith III, who found it “incomprehensible” that his “father should have had such a crew of lusty young women as wives, and not one of them had a baby by him. Not one, not a single baby”.

The presentation emphasized that while there are no identified or verified children from these plural unions, historians cannot definitively state that there were no children. Factors such as high infant mortality, stillbirth, or children who grew up under different names could account for unknown progeny.

Mark Tensmeyer examined the foundational question: Does the fact that Joseph Smith married these women mean that he was sexually active with them?. While there is direct testimony of consummation for some wives (such as Emily Partridge and Melissa Lott), for the majority, evidence is absent or scarce.

Arguments supporting consummation included the 19th-century societal norm where a marriage was often not considered complete if unconsummated. Conversely, arguments suggesting limited or no consummation centered on:

Smith’s lack of cohabitation with many plural wives.
Other motives for marriage, such as dynastic connections or integrating plural marriage into the community.
The fact that Smith and his immediate circle were not actively trying to conceive children with plural wives, contrasting with Brigham Young’s later efforts to “raise up seed to Joseph”.
The gradual rollout of polygamy, which was necessarily shrouded in secrecy and denial, particularly due to Emma Smith’s disapproval and limited knowledge of the full extent of the practice.

To address the historical ambiguity, the researchers focused on 33 “consensus wives”—those agreed upon by prominent historians—and developed various models based on different assumptions regarding sexual frequency.

Modeling the Probability of ConceptionThe statistical analysis required defining key reproductive terms. Fecundity refers to the biological capacity to conceive, while fecundability is the daily probability of pregnancy in a given menstrual cycle.

Dr. Stanford explained that calculating the probability of conception is complex, as the probability is highest in the couple of days prior to ovulation. The models used data from historical natural family planning users to estimate the day-specific probabilities of pregnancy, applying these estimates across the various historical interpretations of Joseph Smith’s sexual activity.

Biostatistician Rick Bennett developed four main models based on the estimated frequency of intercourse, accounting for Joseph Smith’s busy schedule, travel, and ongoing sexual relationship with Emma1:

The conclusions were stark: the Restricted, Low, and Consensus models show that the probability of zero pregnancies is not unusual. The High-Volume model suggests that if intercourse occurred that frequently, zero children would be “very unlikely to happen by chance,” necessitating an explanation through contraception or abortion.

A separate, high-volume model focusing on Fanny Alger alone (due to the length and nature of the relationship) suggested an expected 3.25 children, with a probability of zero children at about 0.03%, meaning it would be unlikely that Fanny should not have had a child in that model.

19th-Century Reproductive Agency and InterventionHistorian Amanda Hendrix-Komoto provided context on 19th-century sexuality, noting that non-academic conversations often overlook the long history of birth control and abortion. She highlighted that before the 20th century, people defined pregnancy differently:

The definitive moment of pregnancy was often considered quickening (when the woman first feels the baby move), which generally happens around 19–20 weeks.
Many people believed the soul enters the fetus at quickening.
Before quickening, interventions were often referred to as “restoring the menses” or “regulating the menses” rather than ending a pregnancy.
Women commonly used herbal teas, vaginal douches, and suppositories to reduce the number of children. While these methods were not perfect, they were somewhat effective.

There is limited direct evidence of early Mormon practices due to the secrecy surrounding polygamy. However, Heber C. Kimball, in an 1857 speech, acknowledged that he knew many women who used doctors to “kill the children,” stating that this practice was “just as common as it is for wheat to grow”. Furthermore, Brigham Young explicitly linked the spirit entering the body to the mother “feels life come into her infant” (quickening).

These findings suggest that early Mormon women would have encountered ideas about abortion and birth control before converting to the Church. Importantly, women possessed agency; they did not need external figures like Dr. J.C. Bennett to control their reproduction, as midwives and other doctors knew how to induce abortions.

In summary, the statistical data supports the conclusion that the lack of identified children is statistically expected if Joseph Smith’s sexual engagement with his plural wives was limited. However, if relations were more frequent, the historical context confirms that 19th-century women had the knowledge and means to utilize contraception or early abortifacients to prevent births.

Don’t miss our discussion of Dr Ugo Perego’s DNA test results on possible children of Joseph Smith.

What are your thoughts about the presentation?

Don’t miss our other conversations about Joseph Smith’s polygamy: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/polygamy/

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Today is Peggy Fletcher Stack’s 40th wedding anniversary. A few months ago, I asked Peggy Fletcher Stack’s opinions. Central to Peggy’s thirty-plus-year career is her unwavering commitment to journalistic ethics and objectivity. Peggy has been a religion reporter at the Salt Lake Tribune for decades, and she tells why she doesn’t like to share her opinions.

https://youtu.be/wJIVGj_2ywQ

Don’t miss our other conversations with Peggy: https://gospeltangents.com/people/peggy-fletcher-stack/

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Peggy Fletcher Stack’s OpinionShe is asked daily about her personal faith but maintains it is “not for public disclosure,” stating she is a “person of faith” who respects others but keeps her own private. She firmly believes a credible journalist cannot be an opinion writer. She actively avoids expressing personal opinions on politics or religion in her reporting or on social media. While her choice of stories and sources reveals focus, she strives for neutrality in her own voice. This commitment means she receives criticism from all sides, even noting she gets “more hate mail than our sports reporters.”

She highlights the challenge that some readers and even sources don’t grasp why journalists don’t simply adopt a specific viewpoint or give the LDS Church the “last word.” She explains her approach to sourcing often prioritizes current “stakeholders” within a faith community for present-day issues, while respecting former members’ perspectives on their personal journeys but finding them less ideal sources for current church affairs.

Dramatic Transformation in JournalismThe conversation also underscores the dramatic transformation in journalism brought by the internet. Contrasting with her early freelance days in Kenya where in-person interviews and library research were essential, online resources now make research significantly easier. However, this ease has contributed to journalism becoming a 24/7 job, with constant demands and potentially less emphasis on crucial in-person reporting. Peggy cautions that younger reporters can sometimes mistake online “buzz” for broad public concern, stressing the importance of understanding what “average believers in the pew” are discussing.

Peggy also touched on the dramatic transformation in journalism due to the internet, contrasting her early freelance days in Kenya with the 24/7 nature of reporting today. While online resources make research easier, the constant demand and decreased emphasis on in-person reporting present new challenges.

Despite these challenges and the constant criticism, Peggy finds her job exciting, enjoying the process of analyzing and connecting the dots. She has no immediate plans to retire, suggesting the 2034 Olympics as a potential bookend for her career since her first story coincided with Salt Lake’s losing the 1998 Olympic bid to Japan.

Why Her Faith is Off-LimitsStepping back into the conversation with Peggy Fletcher Stack of the Salt Lake Tribune, the discussion moved beyond her career origins to highlight the core principle for Peggy is journalistic ethics and objectivity. She firmly believes a credible journalist cannot be an opinion writer. She gets asked daily about her own faith but maintains it’s not for public disclosure, as her role is to report fairly on all faiths. She consciously avoids expressing her personal opinions on politics or religion in her reporting or on social media. While her choice of stories and sources reveals focus, she strives for neutrality in her own voice.

She illustrated the challenge of this by describing how people, including some within the LDS Churc don’t always understand why journalists don’t simply adopt a specific viewpoint or give one source the “last word.” This commitment to reporting on conflict, even when it’s sensitive, means she receives criticism from all sides, sometimes even more hate mail than sports reporters.

Do you agree with why Peggy Fletcher Stack’s opinion is not for public consumption. Do you think there is too much opinion by reporters? Do reporters and columnists confuse the line between journalism and opinion?

Don’t miss our other conversations with Peggy: https://gospeltangents.com/people/peggy-fletcher-stack/

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Community of Christ (CoC) President Stassi Cramm, the church’s first female prophet, addressed pointed questions regarding the role of the Book of Mormon, the pursuit of consensus and faithful disagreement, her prophetic vision for the church, and the ongoing debate over infant baptism.

https://youtu.be/M6kOcByONr8

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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Book of Mormon: Upholding ScripturePresident Cramm emphatically denied the accusation that the Community of Christ is “moving away from the Book of Mormon.”

Key points regarding the Book of Mormon’s status include:

Official Position: The church’s belief statement upholds the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as two additional books of scripture supporting the testimony of the Bible. Cramm noted that eliminating the Book of Mormon from scripture would require rewriting this belief statement, which is not currently on the World Church Leadership Council’s docket.
Non-Creedal Approach: The perception that the Book of Mormon plays a smaller role stems from the CoC being non-creedal; they do not require members to use specific scriptures when preaching or teaching. Therefore, some congregations in the United States may never use the Book of Mormon.
Historicity: The Community of Christ has not taken an absolute stance on the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Cramm suggested this lack of a firm requirement—unlike some who view belief in the Book of Mormon’s specific historical origins as a “test of faith”—is what causes the perception that the church has “pulled away from it.”
Translation Challenges: The CoC’s version of the Book of Mormon (chaptered and versed differently than the LDS version) is not available in French and Spanish. Cramm noted that French might be the dominant language spoken globally in Community of Christ on any given Sunday morning, meaning large segments of the church lack easy access to it. This unavailability was a factor cited in the defeat of a prior resolution to put the Book of Mormon online, primarily due to significant cost associated with translation and formatting.

Cramm emphasized that regardless of historical origins, the Book of Mormon contains important gospel lessons and “long-term stories” demonstrating the continuous cycle of reaching peace only to fall apart due to human tendencies like greed and power.

Navigating Baptism and Sacramental PracticeThe discussion shifted to the contentious issue of baptism. The Community of Christ practices believer’s baptism for those 8 years or older. Historically, they accept baptism from other denominations only if the person was 8 or older when baptized.

Infant Baptism Proposal: Multiple resolutions have come forward asking the President to give prayerful consideration to accepting infant baptism from other denominations for membership, followed by confirmation.
Divisive Issue: This issue elicits very strong feelings. While many members, particularly in Europe where infant baptism is common, wish to avoid re-baptism after joining from another denomination, lifelong members argue that the Doctrine and Covenants mandates the age-eight requirement.
Current Action: President Cramm confirmed that the church is currently engaged in an exploration process using reading material and an online survey to gather perspectives before the Presidency makes a determination.

Leadership, Consensus, & Prophetic VoiceCramm shared her perspective on her new leadership role, which she entered at an older age than some predecessors.

Role as Prophet: Cramm views her tenure as standing in a “liminal space” to help the church navigate current hurdles and prepare emerging leaders.
Empowerment: Her emphasis is on the empowerment of the prophetic voice of the people. Leaders are committed to engaging the imagination of the whole church on important theological questions.
Faithful Disagreement: Cramm agreed that the divisiveness following the 1984 priesthood revelation—which saw congregations leave and property debates ensue—led the church to focus on achieving greater consensus and creating a culture of faithful disagreement. This means that the process under which the church explores and grows together is considered as important as the actual decision itself.

When facing disagreements—such as those surrounding the acceptance of women in the priesthood or current theological issues—the principles of faithful disagreement ensure that people with differing opinions are not judged as unfaithful or immediately ostracized. Instead, they must cultivate Christlike love, which is a choice that requires respecting an opposing opinion even if it is not shared.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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In a recent candid conversation, Stassi Cramm, the first female prophet of the Community of Christ, discussed the Kirtland Temple sale & highly publicized sale of historic sites. She offered insights into the church’s current financial & addressed the complexities of continuing to lead a worldwide, diverse body on issues of inclusion and mission.

President Cramm, who was ordained in June 2025 and previously served nine years in the First Presidency, emphasized that her approach centers on faithful agility and discerning God’s ongoing call for the church.

https://youtu.be/blYLTxtHqVk

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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Navigating Finances and Faith: An Update from Community of Christ President Stassi CrammIn a recent candid conversation, Stassi Cramm, the first female prophet of the Community of Christ, offered insights into the church’s current financial reality following the highly publicized sale of historic sites, including the Kirtland Temple, and addressed the complexities of continuing to lead a worldwide, diverse body on issues of inclusion and mission.

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The $200 Million Kirtland Temple Sale Question: Financial StewardshipThe sale of the Kirtland Temple and associated properties to the LDS Church generated almost $200 million. This revenue was immediately invested into the church’s endowments, which are intended to provide some foundational income for the annual budget.

However, Cramm confirmed a widespread projection that this sale alone did not generate enough to fully endow the operations of the church into perpetuity. The current financial model still relies significantly on Worldwide Mission Tithes (tithing) as an essential element of discipleship.

Based on current trends, if the number of financial supporters continues to slowly decline, the Community of Christ will face additional financial questions around the year 2030.

Cramm noted that the church’s leaders, including the Council of 12 and the Presiding Bishopric, are focused on defining what the church “needs to be” in the future. The goal is not merely to keep the lights on, but to do so while faithfully being who God needs them to be in the world.

This strategy involves:

Fostering new communities of disciples committed to the church’s mission.
Engaging in social ministries and justice activities.
Empowering new forms of leadership from younger generations.
Innovating stewardship, including looking at different investment strategies and business ventures aligned with the church’s mission.

President Cramm concluded that success must be measured in faithfulness terms, rather than “worldly terms” like turning a profit or hitting a specific number of members in the pews.

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Inclusion, Ordination, and the Gay Apostle QuestionThe conversation also turned to the church’s approach to LGBTQ+ inclusion, a topic that remains widely discussed both in the U.S. and within the global church.

Community of Christ policy allows the World Conference to establish broad principles, while national or field conferences can weigh in on particulars based on local needs and discernment. This approach acknowledges that in some parts of the world, discussing inclusion topics can be life-threatening or illegal.

When asked whether an openly gay apostle might be called under her administration, President Cramm emphasized a key distinction regarding ordination policy:

Sexual Orientation is Not the Barrier: Cramm clarified that sexual orientation has never been a criteria for whether or not someone can be ordained in Community of Christ. Gay individuals were being ordained even before 2013.
Relationship Status Was the Issue: The barrier prior to 2013 was the relationship part. If a gay person was ordained and wanted to live with a partner in a committed relationship, policies related to cohabitation and lack of legal/covenant marriage mechanism meant they could not remain ordained. The 2013 changes in the U.S. addressed this injustice by allowing ordination for those in same-gender relationships.

Ultimately, when considering priesthood calls, including that of an apostle, the focus should not be on sexual orientation, but on “who is God calling”. However, political considerations in conservative areas do play a role in making assignments for all priesthood members, ensuring that their ministry will be well-received in that area.

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Doctrine of DisagreementThe ability to navigate complex and divisive issues is central to Community of Christ culture. Even following the acceptance of women’s priesthood in 1984, which caused some to walk out of conference, the church has learned to live in a space of faithful disagreement.

Cramm noted that she had received opposing votes against her call in June 2025 from individuals who still do not support women in the priesthood but remain committed to other aspects of the church’s mission.

The principles of faithful disagreement acknowledge that members are all trying to discern God’s will, but due to human imperfections, they do not always reach the same conclusion. This means:

People who disagree are not judged as unfaithful or immediately ostracized.
Members must cultivate Christlike love, which is a choice that comes from a deep understanding of God’s love for everyone, allowing them to respect an opposing opinion even if they do not share it.

Cramm observed that the divisive nature of decisions like the 1984 priesthood revelation and the recent sale of the Kirtland Temple underscore the need for the church to achieve a high degree of consensus on critical matters, often moving beyond a simple majority toward 80% agreement or more before adopting new policies that aim to be transformative.

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Role of ScriptureFinally, President Cramm addressed the recurring accusation that the Community of Christ is “moving away from the Book of Mormon”.

She emphatically denied this characterization, noting that the church’s belief statement upholds the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as two additional books of scripture supporting the testimony of the Bible. If the church were trying to move away from it, they would need to rewrite that statement.

Cramm explained that the perception of the Book of Mormon playing a smaller role stems from the church being non-creedal; they do not require members to use specific scriptures when preaching or teaching. Furthermore, Community of Christ has not taken an absolute stance on the historicity of the Book of Mormon, which sometimes causes concern among those who view it as a test of faith.

Cramm acknowledged a practical shortcoming: the church’s version of the Book of Mormon is not available in French and Spanish. Given that French may be the dominant language spoken in Community of Christ on a given Sunday morning globally, this unavailability means large segments of the church do not have easy access to it. Despite this, leadership currently has no plans to de-canonize the Book of Mormon.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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We’re discussing 2 controversial topics with Stassi Cramm, President of the Community of Christ. We’ll focus on the controversial sale of Kirtland Temple, as well as the schism that followed the 1984 revelation on women’s ordination. Which was more controversial? Check out our conversation…

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

https://youtu.be/CIv5kq-x648

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1984 Schism & Its AftermathThe 1984 revelation that allowed women to hold the priesthood led to an immediate schism within the church, which was then known as the RLDS Church. President Cramm, who was not present at the 1984 conference, describes the period as rancorous with hard feelings. Following the decision, there were significant conflicts, including debates over property ownership and padlocks being put on church doors as whole congregations pulled away from the main body of the church. The opposition was so strong that a resolution to rescind the 1984 revelation was brought forward at the 1986 conference, though it did not pass.

President Cramm contrasts this divisive experience with how the church handled the more recent, and also potentially divisive, issue of same-sex marriage in the early 2010s. Learning from the past, Church leadership approached the topic more slowly, with years of study and conversation. They developed “the principles of faithful disagreement,” which allow members to hold differing opinions on church decisions without being judged as unfaithful. While the church still lost members after implementing new policies on same-gender marriage in 2013, the schism was not as severe as in 1984. Today, there are still members who do not believe women should be ordained, and some voiced their opposition to President Cramm’s call at the most recent conference, which she notes is acceptable within the church’s framework.

Sale of Kirtland TempleA significant portion of the conversation addresses the recent sale of Kirtland Temple and other historic sites to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This decision was very difficult and emotional, comparable in some ways to the 1984 revelation.

Key points regarding the sale:* Lack of Conference Vote: The decision for the sale of Kirtland Temple was made by church leadership without a vote or formal input from the World Conference delegates. This was a major point of contention for members who felt the process contradicted the principle of common consent. A resolution was brought to the most recent conference demanding that future property sales receive conference approval, but it was ruled out of order. * Rationale for Bypassing Conference: President Cramm explained that the resolution was ruled out of order because it conflicted with the scriptural and bylaw authority granted to the First Presidency and the Presiding Bishopric to act in the church’s best overall interest. She also stated that giving 2,800 delegates enough information to make an informed recommendation was not feasible, and that leadership needed to be trusted to do their difficult job. * Negotiation Secrecy: The negotiations on sale of Kirtland Temple were conducted under a non-disclosure agreement (NDA), which President Cramm described as a mutual decision to manage how information was released. A public debate or vote would have weakened the church’s negotiating position, especially since it was determined that the LDS Church was the only entity capable of providing the necessary funds while ensuring the site’s continued maintenance and accessibility. * Financial Necessity: The sale was driven by a looming financial shortfall that threatened the church’s ability to function globally. Leadership had a legal and moral obligation to keep the church operating and to ensure they could be good stewards of their properties. When it became clear they could no longer afford to properly maintain the temple, selling it was seen as the best option to preserve it. * Response to “Revelation” Argument: When asked about the argument that the temple was given by revelation and should only be sold by revelation, President Cramm stated that she had not encountered that specific argument before and could not directly respond to it.

Common Consent and Church GovernanceThe discussion also highlighted the Community of Christ’s legislative-style World Conference, which differs significantly from the LDS Church’s General Conference. Members can speak directly to church leadership from podiums on the conference floor, expressing support or opposition for resolutions. President Cramm finds this process respectful, though it can be emotionally charged and uncomfortable as the presider, who feels the weight of the entire room’s emotions. The process is governed by Robert’s Rules of Order, which includes alternating between speakers for and against a motion.

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Stassi Cramm is the 1st female Prophet-President of the Community of Christ. I asked her to reflect back on the 1984 revelation that granted priesthood to women and her time as a lifelong member of Community of Christ. Was it hard? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/OjtLJ-FG988

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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0:00 Meet Stassi Cramm
4:32 Women Get Priesthood in 1984 Revelation
17:28 Diverse Agreement

1st Female ProphetStassi Cramm was ordained 1st female prophet of Community of Christ earlier this year in June 2025.

Look Back at 1984 Revelation on Women’s OrdinationStassi Cramm was a young adult just starting her career in Southern California when the Community of Christ (then the RLDS Church) experienced a pivotal moment in its history: a revelation was presented that, among other things, opened the door for women to be ordained to the priesthood. For many, it was a moment of profound rightness. For others, it was a deeply divisive decision that would reshape the church for years to come.

She recalls being “oblivious” to the years of study and conversation that led to this moment, as she had been busy with university and her new job. She wasn’t at the 1984 World Conference where this new scripture, now Section 156 of the Community of Christ Doctrine and Covenants, was approved. News traveled slowly back then, through weekly long-distance phone calls and reports from conference attendees returning home.

A Sense of Rightness Amidst DivisionWhen President Cramm finally read the new revelation, her reaction was immediate. “For me, there was this immediate sense of rightness to it and this sense of course! Why hadn’t I thought of this before?” she recalls. She expresses a retrospective sense of shame that, as a woman in the male-dominated field of flight test engineering, she hadn’t previously recognized the “lack of equal opportunity for leadership and service” in her own church.

However, she soon learned of the “divisive nature” of the decision. People had walked out of the conference in protest, and the revelation sparked a schism within the church. Congregations split. Padlocks were put on church doors, and debates raged over property ownership. President Cramm’s own congregation in Lancaster, California, handled the change well. But the wider church felt the strain.

Personal Cost of a CallingTwo years later, in 1986, Stassi Cramm received her first call to the priesthood. She remembers the vulnerability of that moment, standing before her stake conference as some members, including people she considered friends, raised their hands in opposition.

“It’s hard. You feel vulnerable anyways when you’re accepting a call. And so when there’s a group of people who raise their hand against you, intellectually you understand it. Emotionally you feel it”.

She credits the very first women who were ordained as her heroes, calling them “amazing path makers” who endured verbal criticism with humility and faithfulness. For herself, she chose to live in the difficult space of maintaining friendships with those who disagreed, recognizing that differing perspectives on whether the revelation was “of God” shouldn’t sever their ability to be friends. This, she notes, is where Christlike love becomes a conscious choice, not a feeling—a choice to respect others’ opinions even when you don’t share them.

Navigating Faithful DisagreementThis experience highlights a core aspect of the Community of Christ’s culture: navigating faithful disagreement. President Cramm later moved to a congregation in Las Vegas where a group remained opposed to women in the priesthood. The congregation found a way to coexist, making small accommodations for one another. For example, if a woman said the communion prayer, a male priesthood member would serve the sacrament to those who objected.

These were hard conversations, but they were necessary to stay in community together. President Cramm shares a poignant memory of a conversation with a woman who opposed her call as pastor. It ended with a mutual promise: “I will continue to pray for you.”

“And I will continue to pray for you.”

It was a moment of recognition that both were seeking God’s will and had to trust God to lead them forward together.

The 1984 revelation was more than just a policy change; it was a defining event that forced the church to confront deep divisions and learn how to live together amidst profound disagreement. The lessons learned from that difficult period continue to shape the Community of Christ’s approach to decision-making, emphasizing conversation, study, and seeking a higher degree of consensus on important issues.

She has come a long way since 1984, becoming the 1st female Prophet of Community of Christ!

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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Here is my JWHA recap 2025! I’ll show photos and give my reactions to the award winners! Check it out!

Don’t miss our other Tangent Trips! https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/

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https://youtu.be/NL_LkWQBApk

Fresh off the plane from Kansas City, I wanted to share a recap of my fantastic, albeit hectic, week at the John Whitmer Historical Association (JWHA) meetings in Independence. It’s been a whirlwind of travel lately—from Atlanta to Canada and then straight to JWHA—but the experience was absolutely worth it.

Honoring Legends and Celebrating New WorksThe awards ceremony was a major highlight, celebrating the brilliant minds in Mormon History. A truly special moment was seeing Mark Staker, this year’s JWHA president, present Grant McMurray with a Lifetime Achievement Award. Grant, a former president of the Community of Christ and one of the founders of JWHA 50 years ago, was in high spirits despite being in a wheelchair, which I hadn’t seen before. He joked that with a Lifetime Achievement Award, he didn’t need to do anything else in his life, which got a good laugh from everyone.

Congratulations are also in order for several other award winners:

Matt Harris, the incoming JWHA president, deservedly won the Best Book Award for his incredible book, Second Class Saints. It was great to see him presented with the award. His mother attended the conference too!
Jason Smith, who runs the JWHA podcast, received the Excellence in Leadership award.
Cristina Gagliano (formerly Rosetti) won Best Biography for her book on Mormon fundamentalist Joseph White Musser.
William Perez won for his article “Unholy Waters,” and Ryan Davis won for his work on Mormon missionaries and popular music in Spain.
Katie Rich and Heather Sundahl were recognized for their work on 50 Years of Exponent II. Katie Rich is clearly an impressive historian who has slipped under my radar, and I need to get her on the podcast soon!.

JWHA Recap: Presentations, Pictures, and PeopleThe conference was packed with fascinating people and presentations. I had the opportunity to present with Mark Tensmeyer and Amanda Hendrix-Komoto on Joseph Smith’s polygamy and the statistical question of how many children he should have had. We’re hoping to get a group together for a follow-up discussion soon.

Unfortunately, due to scheduling conflicts, I missed several presentations I was eager to see, including those by Kyle Beshears (my favorite Baptist pastor), my good friend Newell Bringhurst, Ganesh Cherian, and Jared Halverson. Kyle, an expert on James Strang, was even passing out hilarious Nintendo 64-style stickers of Strang.

It was a joy to reconnect with so many friends and colleagues, including:

My friend Matt Turner, who helped me with a walking tour of Independence a few years ago.
Historians and authors like Alex Baugh, Brian Hales, Craig Foster, and Mark Scherer.
Representatives from various restoration groups, which is what makes Whitmer so unique. I chatted with Wayne, a Seventy in the Bickertonite Church, and John Hajicek, who follows James Strang’s legacy.

Special Interview and a Look AheadOne of the most exciting parts of the trip was interviewing Stassi Cramm, the first female prophet of the Community of Christ. The interview took place this morning, and I’m hoping to edit and post it this weekend, so keep an eye out for that! I also had the pleasure of meeting other leaders from the Community of Christ, including Bunda Chibwe of the First Presidency.

We also took a fascinating tour led by Matt Harris to Topeka, Kansas, to visit the elementary school of Linda Brown from the landmark Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court case. Now a museum run by the National Park Service, it was a powerful experience to see the history firsthand.

For those planning ahead, next year’s JWHA conference will be in Council Bluffs, Iowa, home of Winter Quarters, so I expect we’ll have some great historical tours there as well.

It was an exhausting but incredibly rewarding week. Thanks to everyone who makes this community so vibrant and fun. I’m already looking forward to next year!

Don’t miss our other Tangent Trips! https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/

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Today marks 168 years since the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Following last year’s JWHA conference in St George, Utah, I drove by the 4 monuments to the tragedy. Here is an in-depth account of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, an “unspeakable tragedy” that occurred on September 11, 1857. This episode is a somber reflection on this event, along with a condemnation of political and gun violence.

https://youtu.be/5MQbBi2zhwI

Don’t miss our other Tangent Trips! https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/

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Context and Causes of Mountain Meadows Massacre:In 1857, Utah was considered in rebellion by President James Buchanan, who sent the U.S. Army to put down the “Mormon rebellion”. Mormons, having previously been expelled from Kirtland, Missouri, and Nauvoo, were on edge, determined not to be driven out again. Brigham Young, then a former governor, had directed Mormons not to sell supplies to immigrants because they were preparing for war. He also warned the federal government about the dangers on the immigration road if Mormons were attacked and had told Native Americans that it was “okay to steal from any immigrants”.

The victims were the Fancher- Baker party, a group of about 100-120 men, women, and children from Arkansas, traveling to California with many cattle. They were denied supplies in Utah and were in the “wrong place at the wrong time”.

Mountain Meadows Massacre Events: The conflict began around September 7th when Mormons, who had enlisted Native Americans, attempted to raid the immigrants’ cattle. An initial scuffle resulted in a Mormon shooting and killing one immigrant. * The Baker-Fancher party circled their wagons, forming a defensive fortification. * To cover up the initial murder and prevent witnesses, local Mormon leaders decided to kill everyone. * The party was under siege for several days, running low on ammunition and food, and being shot at when they tried to get water from a spring. * John D. Lee, a Mormon, pretended to be a negotiator and came under a white flag of truce. He persuaded the immigrants to surrender their guns, promising safe passage. * The men were separated from the women, children, and sick. A signal, possibly “halt” followed by “do your duty,” was given. Mormon men shot the Fancher men next to them. The women and children were also killed, as they didn’t want any witnesses. * Approximately 96 to 120 men, women, and children were killed. Seventeen small children survived* because they were deemed too young to “tell tales”.

Aftermath and Memorials:The Mountain Meadows Massacre is considered the “worst chapter in LDS history”.

John D. Lee was the only person convicted (and executed) for his role in the massacre. He was tried in Beaver, Utah, in two trials (1875 and 1876), with the second resulting in his conviction by an all-Mormon jury. He was executed by firing squad at the massacre site on March 23, 1877, almost 20 years after the event.
The LDS Church later purchased the land and worked with the federal government to establish it as a National Historic Landmark.
The site includes several memorials:

◦ The Overlook Monument:The monument features a wall with the names of many victims. It also has lookout points to identify the Men and Boys’ Memorial, Women & Children’s Memorial, and the immigration campsite.

◦ The Gravesite Memorial:Patterned after an 1859 cairn built by U.S. Army soldiers. It contains stones from the original cairn and crypts where the bones of 29 victims were reinterred in 1999, wrapped in shrouds and placed in oak ossuaries on a thin layer of Arkansas soil. A child’s skull, removed by the U.S. Army in 1879, was reinterred by relatives in 2017. The memorial was dedicated on September 11, 1999, with a statement of regret from Henry B. Eyring on September 11, 2007.

◦ Memorial for Men and Older Boys:A smaller monument about two-thirds of a mile from the gravesite.

◦ Memorial for Women, Children, and Wounded:Located three-quarters of a mile beyond the men and boys’ memorial.

I also travelled to Beaver, Utah, where John D. Lee was tried. There is a historic courthouse there, although it may not be the exact building from the trials. Many of the miltia came from Parowan and Cedar City, where the “trouble started” andmany participants in the massacre were from there.

Have you seen the memorial before?

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Come along with me on a walking tour of Independence, Missouri! We’ll explore the historic Temple Lot Church (Hedrickites) and look at rare photographs from the Great Depression, when attempts were made to build the Jackson County Temple on the very cornerstones Joseph Smith laid in 1831. We’ll also stop by the Stone Church, the oldest church in Missouri, built by Joseph Smith III, and visit the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

As we walk, we’ll trace the same steps once taken by Harry Truman, stopping at the United Nations Peace Plaza and the Auditorium he frequented after returning home from the presidency. Our journey will also take us to the Cutlerite Church and Temple.

It’s a unique chance to experience history, faith, and legacy all in one walk—you won’t want to miss it!

https://youtu.be/E-z1dRBPzqw

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From Zion to TrumanJoin us on an extended walking tour through Independence, Missouri, a city rich with pivotal moments in both the Restoration movement and American political history. From the foundational sites of early Mormonism to the stomping grounds of President Harry S. Truman, Independence offers a unique blend of historical insights.

The Sacred Ground: Temple LotOur journey begins at the Temple Lot, a site dedicated by the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith and other Mormon leaders on August 3, 1831. This area was envisioned as the center of Zion, a grand temple complex. Today, it’s surrounded by several significant structures, including the Community of Christ Auditorium and Temple, the LDS Stake Center, and LDS Visitor Center.

The Temple Lot Church, sometimes known as the Hedrick-ites, stands prominently. This site has seen its share of trials; the first and second churches built here were both tragically destroyed by fire. A particularly heartbreaking incident in 1990 saw a former member reportedly burn down a church with the misguided belief that it would expedite the rebuilding of the temple. Plans for a larger temple with groundbreaking and footings were halted by the Great Depression, leaving a famous foundation hole. Interestingly, artifacts like stones, found by Otto Fetting, are on display, hinting at the never-realized Greek-style design. The envisioned temple’s footprint was surprisingly small, especially compared to later temples like Nauvoo or Salt Lake.

Inside the Temple Lot Visitor Center, you can see photographs of early leaders and even a display of the Book of Commandments, a precursor to the Doctrine and Covenants, which is apparently being phased out of print and may be de-canonized.

Architectural and Spiritual Diversity:Other Churches of Independence

Just a short distance away, we visit the Stone Church, which stands as the oldest church in Missouri built by Joseph Smith III. Its interior, with its large pipe organ, impressive stained-glass windows, and wooden pillars, might remind visitors of the Salt Lake Tabernacle, albeit on a smaller scale.

The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has its headquarters in the former Chrisman High School, a building that also operates a lunch program for the homeless.

A particularly unique stop is the Cutlerite Church, established by Alpheus Cutler in 1853. This small denomination, with fewer than a dozen members (most over 70), maintains a distinctive practice: they are one of the few churches outside the LDS Church and some polygamous groups that practice baptisms for the dead and endowments. Their building serves a dual purpose, with a chapel on the first floor and a “temple area” on the second, where sacred” temple work is conducted.

Early Mormon Footprints and ConflictsIndependence also holds the memory of early Mormon settlers and the tensions they faced. We visit the site of Edward Partridge’s home and the relocated Jones Flournoy Home, where Jones Flournoy lived in 1831 when he sold the Temple Lot to the Mormons. The Frederick Madison Smith Study, though moved from its original location five miles east, reminds us of the grandson of Joseph Smith who, as prophet of the RLDS Church, advocated for “supreme directional control”. This policy caused many members, including Otto Fetting, to leave and join other factions like the Hedrick-ites or Fettingites.

The Rathbun home, specifically the site of Robert and Hannah Rathbun’s blacksmith shop, recalls a violent incident on July 20, 1833, when their shop was broken into, leading to their forced departure from the county. The Printing Office of WW Phelps, where “The Evening and the Morning Star” newspaper was published, was destroyed in July 1833. This act of destruction was sparked by Phelps’s printing of “Free People of Color,” which local Missourians, in a pro-slavery state, perceived as an invitation for Black people to enter Missouri.

The Log Courthouse, erected in 1827, served as the temporary seat of Jackson County government and dates directly to the period when Mormons were in Jackson County. The original location of Governor Boggs’s home is now just an empty field. Governor Lilburn Boggs, initially friendly, later issued the infamous Extermination Order against the Mormons. The Noland House, a popular inn, was where Joseph Smith and other Mormon leaders were held under house arrest in 1838, occasionally visiting the desolate Temple Lot.

The site of an early jail is now the Truman National Historic Site Visitors Center. In 1833, it held prominent Mormons like Sydney Gilbert, William McLellin, John Corrill, and Isaac Morley, & Porter Rockwell.

Presidential Presence: Harry TrumanIndependence also celebrates its connection to President Harry S. Truman, who made his mark both before and after his presidency. The UN Peace Plaza commemorates the formal announcement by President Truman in the nearby Community of Christ Auditorium on June 27, 1945, that the U.S. was a signatory to the United Nations. At the Public Square, you’ll find a statue of General Andrew Jackson, presented by President Truman in 1949. The Log Courthouse holds an interesting personal connection, as Harry Truman served as a judge there. This building was still used as late as 1932.

The Truman Home is a private residence, though free tickets can be obtained at the museum. Interestingly, this historic home is located just around the corner from the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints headquarters. Truman was known for his daily habit of walking two miles before breakfast, and a famous false headline “Dewey Defeats Truman” is commemorated nearby.

Have you visited all these sites in Independence?

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Unannounced LiveGospel Tangents recently surprised viewers with an unannounced live stream including a JFS book giveaway. This is a “late night edition” that offers a whirlwind update on my extensive travels, upcoming interviews, and even some “breaking news” from the Temple Lot Church. Despite a busy travel schedule and a significant backlog of videos to edit, I managed to connect, give away a JFS book, and share exciting previews of what’s to come!

https://youtu.be/Jw_a2PA5jAU

Recent Travels and AdventuresI’ve been to several significant sites related to the Latter Day Saint movement:

Community of Christ Conference in Independence, Missouri: This “super fun trip” included reactions to Stassi Cramm being ordained the new prophet in the Community of Christ. While there, I also visited the Temple Lot Church, meeting a “Kiwi” (New Zealander) who hinted at a possible interview. I also updated my tour with video, experimenting with cell phone cameras, promising many unpublished videos from Independence.
Mormon History Association: Following Independence, he attended the Mormon History Association, where I toured several LDS churches, including a “really old” one in Ogden and Joseph Soderberg’s church, known for President Hinckley’s testimony story.
Strangites in Wisconsin: Instead of Houston, I visited the Strangites in Wisconsin, staying with former guest Bill Shepard. He also hung out with David Boice and Gary Weber, who gave me a tour of the Hill of Promise, which the Strangites consider akin to the Hill Cumorah.

◦ The Voree Plates and the Hill of Promise: Gary Weber explained that the Hill of Promise is where James Strang found the Voree record. An angel reportedly told Strang where the record was buried beneath a tree, and respected townsmen witnessed its excavation. The record, encased in stone, crumbled upon exposure to air but was translated by Strang, telling the story of the “people of Raja Ramor”. It described a great war, similar to the Hill Cumorah narrative, and a pictorial representation of priesthood structure mirroring that under Joseph Smith and James Strang.

◦ Prophetic Significance: The Hill of Promise is also sacred because Strang’s revelations state that Daniel from the Bible will appear there someday to teach the saints and announce Christ’s soon approaching second coming.

◦ Beaver Island Plans: David Boice & I visited Burlington (originally called Voree by Strang), where we saw several Strangite sites, including a plaque for a never-built temple. I’m planning a trip to Beaver Island, which was James Strang’s later settlement where he was crowned king and assassinated. Gary Weber noted that there’s “not a lot to see” on Beaver Island, mostly dirt roads, but a ferry or plane can take visitors there.

Calgary/Cardston, Alberta, Canada: I flew to Calgary for my son’s wedding and visited Cardston, Alberta, home to the first international temple for the LDS church. I received a book on Raymond, Alberta, a town settled by Raymond Knight (son of Newell Knight) and noted for being “practically Utah up in Canada” due to its 80% Mormon population. Cardston is compared to Manti due to its remote location and pioneer feel, with concerns about preserving its murals during an upcoming refurbishment when a new temple in Lethbridge opens.

Beyond church history, I also enjoyed a Brewers-Cardinals baseball game with my friend Walter Reade.

Upcoming Interviews and ContentViewers have much to look forward to from Gospel Tangents:

John Turner Interview and Book Giveaway: John Turner’s book, “Joseph Smith The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet,” was released on Amazon. I’ve already conducted an interview with Turner, and part one was released. An autographed copy of this book was given away in a contest.
Strangite Interviews: Interviews with Gary Weber and potentially other Strangite figures, including a man named Trevor, are in the pipeline.
Temple Lot Interviews: The host hopes to secure an interview with Stacy Cramm, the new prophet of the Community of Christ, Trevor from the Temple Lot, and Tom from a fundamentalist group.
Travel Videos: A significant backlog of travel videos, including the Mesa Temple and the Calgary/Cardston temples, are awaiting editing and released..

JFS Book Giveaways and “Breaking News”During the live stream, I gave away a copy of “Joseph Fielding Smith: a Mormon Theologian“ to Mark Francis from Wendell, Idaho.

In a surprising announcement, “breaking news” from the Temple Lot Church: they are going to quit selling the Book of Commandments. While Randy Sheldon hinted that this might lead to its “de-canonization”. For those unfamiliar, the Book of Commandments was the precursor to the Doctrine and Covenants, originally intended for publication in 1833 before a mob destroyed the printing press. Only a few rare copies were bound, making first editions extremely valuable.

I express gratitude for my “night owl” viewers and their support. Please support me here at Gospel Tangents by signing up at Patreon.

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This is a rebroadcast of my 2018 interview with John Hamer & Lachlan MacKay from the Community of Christ. They’ll bust some LDS myths about the Kirtland Temple, Word of Wisdom, Alice Cooper, and more! Check it out!

https://youtu.be/NjnkS1Y-tls

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A Journey Through Kirtland and BeyondThe early history of the Latter-day Saint movement is far richer and more complex than many realize, marked by vibrant architectural innovations, evolving theological understandings, and a dramatic succession crisis that led to the formation of numerous distinct traditions. Recent discussions with Community of Christ leaders, Apostle Lachlan MacKay and Seventy John Hamer, offer fascinating insights into this intricate past, shedding light on topics ranging from the Kirtland Temple‘s original appearance to the diverse interpretations of core doctrines.

John is the author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism.

Bust LDS Myths on Kirtland Temple: Kaleidoscope of Early WorshipThe Kirtland Temple, a pivotal edifice in early Latter-day Saint history, holds a storied past, not least because of its surprising original aesthetics and a tumultuous ownership saga. When first constructed, the building did not present the pristine white façade it does today. Rather, it was designed to emulate a grand, cut-stone look, achieved through an ingenious building technique introduced by Artemus Millet.

The walls, approximately two feet thick and 45 feet high, were constructed from rubble, primarily sandstone, held together with mortar. To create the desired elegant appearance, a hard plaster or stucco finish was immediately applied to the exterior. This stucco was mixed with crushed old crockery and glass, making the surface sparkle brilliantly when struck by sunlight. Mortar joints were then painted onto the walls, giving the illusion of large, meticulously cut stone blocks from a distance. Far from white, the temple was described as “blue” in the 1830s, likely a slate gray hue. Even the wooden shingles were dipped in red lead paint for preservation, and the front doors were olive green, presenting a far more colorful structure than we envision today. This vibrant exterior, sadly, was toned down over the years due to fading, extensive patching of cracks, rust streaks from iron in the sandstone, and eventually, the removal and replacement of stucco in the 1950s, leading to its brilliant white appearance only since the 1960s.

The temple’s initial function also differed significantly from modern Latter-day Saint temples. In Kirtland, it served as a public house for worship with a strong emphasis on spiritual and intellectual empowerment. Two-thirds of the temple was dedicated to classroom space, where people would attend worship on Sundays and school six days a week. It even housed the Kirtland High School, accommodating students from six years old through adulthood, making it the center of community life. This public access contrasted with the Nauvoo temple, where a tithe-payer’s receipt was required for the baptismal font, a precursor to the modern temple recommend concept.

The Kirtland Temple’s ownership history is equally complex, described as “a mess”. Joseph Smith sometimes owned it personally and at other times on behalf of the Church. Amid financial difficulties, it was signed over to William Marks to protect it from creditors. After Joseph Smith’s death, there were attempts by various groups, including Brigham Young’s followers, to sell or claim the temple. A particularly violent incident in 1838 saw dissenters storm the temple with guns and knives, aiming to take possession, only to be ejected by police amidst a chaotic scene involving a toppled stovepipe and soot. The Community of Christ’s “Kirtland temple suit” in the 1880s was primarily about establishing identity as Joseph Smith Jr.’s true church, rather than merely securing ownership, despite an initial favorable ruling being dismissed on procedural grounds.

Evolving Temple Worship and Theological InsightsThe sources highlight significant differences in temple worship and theology between the Kirtland era and later developments in Nauvoo and beyond. Notably, the Kirtland Temple had no baptismal font, and endowment ceremonies as understood later were not taking place there.

The concept of baptism for the dead seems to have its origins in Nauvoo, though rooted in Joseph Smith’s earlier concern for his unbaptized brother, Alvin. The vision of Alvin in the celestial kingdom in 1836 (LDS D&C 137) brought relief, but the idea of baptism by proxy didn’t fully materialize until Nauvoo, with early baptisms even occurring in the Mississippi River before the temple font was ready. Other traditions, like James Strang’s, also adopted this practice. The Community of Christ initially found the idea appealing but, lacking a temple to practice it, it eventually ceased to be part of their tradition.

The vision of Elijah on April 3, 1836, in the Kirtland Temple, is interpreted differently by various Latter-day Saint traditions. For the Community of Christ, a key insight is that this vision of the Risen Lord occurred on Easter Sunday, emphasizing the Christ-centered nature of the event. Modern LDS tradition often anachronistically reads the vision as the moment the sealing power for plural marriage was restored. However, historical context suggests the early Saints, a “millennial sect,” were focused on end-times theology and Elijah’s return to “turn the hearts of the children to the fathers” in preparation for the literal Second Coming, not plural marriage. The vision of Alvin in D&C 137 is also clarified as being about preaching in the spirit prison, not baptism for the dead, a later reinterpretation.

Endowment ceremonies in Kirtland also evolved. Initially, “endowment with power from on high” meant gathering to be empowered by the Holy Spirit for missionary outreach. Over time, ordinances were added, including ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood, feet washing, and a ritual cleansing with cinnamon whiskey and perfumed water. This purification ritual was performed just prior to entering the temple, followed by anointing with oil and sealing blessings on the third floor, a process that took weeks and was considered essential for missionaries going overseas.

Succession and Schisms: The Fragmented HeritageFollowing Joseph Smith’s assassination in 1844, a profound succession crisis emerged, creating a vacuum that led to numerous leadership claims and the formation of diverse Latter-day Saint traditions. The death of Hyrum Smith alongside Joseph, who held an “anomalous role” as assistant president, left the question of succession open.

Sidney Rigdon, as the last surviving member of the First Presidency, held a strong canonical claim to leadership, supported by the church’s incorporation documents which stipulated succession through the First Presidency. However, he was outmaneuvered by Brigham Young, who, as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, established the precedent of the senior apostle succeeding, a practice not found in early canon law but adopted to prevent Rigdon’s leadership. Rigdon subsequently attempted to reorganize the church in Pittsburgh, but his movement eventually atomized, leading to the formation of smaller groups like the Bickertonites.

Among the most influential rivals to Brigham Young was James Strang, a recent convert who rapidly gained a following. Strang claimed angelic ordination simultaneous with Joseph’s death and presented a contested letter purportedly appointing him as Joseph’s successor. He further bolstered his claims with new prophetic signs, including the translation of the “Voree plates,” physical artifacts seen by thousands, which foretold a refuge in Voree, Wisconsin, and the emergence of a great successor. Strang gathered followers, first in Voree and then on Beaver Island in Lake Michigan, where they built a thriving colony. His movement controversially adopted polygamy, which Strang claimed to discover through translating a separate set of “brass plates”. His opposition to selling whiskey to Native Americans also caused friction with neighbors. Strang was eventually martyred in 1856, and his followers were brutally dispersed, suffering severe persecution.

Other notable groups included:

Lyman Wight’s followers (Wightites): Wight, a senior member of the Council of Fifty, believed he was called to relocate to Texas and formed a successful colony there. Most Wightites eventually joined the Reorganization.
Alpheus Cutler’s followers (Cutlerites): Cutler, a mason of the Nauvoo Temple and a leader of the Council of Fifty, also believed Joseph Smith III would be the successor. His small group is known for maintaining a unique, longer, and secret Nauvoo-era endowment ceremony, making them a subject of great historical interest despite their dwindling numbers.
Hedrickites: This group, also known as the Church of Christ, focused on redeeming Zion in Jackson County, Missouri, acquiring portions of the original Temple Lot. They reject the Doctrine and Covenants, citing changes from the original Book of Commandments.

The Community of Christ (historically RLDS Church) emerged from various scattered branches in the Midwest that were dissatisfied with the leadership of Brigham Young and James Strang. These branches, praying for guidance, coalesced around the idea of lineal succession, eventually inviting Joseph Smith III to become their prophet-president in 1860. This “Josephite tradition” drew many dissenters from other groups, including those who had gone west to Utah but were disillusioned.

Bust LDS Myths on Word of WisdomThe Word of Wisdom, a key revelation in Mormonism, is another area where historical context significantly alters modern understanding. In the early 19th century, “strong drink” clearly referred to distilled spirits like whiskey and rum, not all alcohol. Wine, specifically redcurrant wine, was used for sacrament offerings, including at the Kirtland Temple dedication and even at Latter-day Saint weddings for wine and cake. “Mild barley drinks,” meaning beer, were considered “good for the body”.

Joseph Smith was a strong proponent of temperance, which at the time meant moderation, not prohibition. People were admonished for “overindulgence or drinking strong drink,” particularly those struggling with alcoholism, rather than for simply having a glass of beer. This historical understanding emphasizes avoiding addiction and promoting moderation, a principle still encouraged by the Community of Christ. Even practical uses of substances mentioned in the Word of Wisdom are noted, such as cinnamon whiskey for ritual cleansing prior to temple ordinances, and tobacco for poultices or to energize mules. The admonition to eat meat sparingly even led some to avoid meat between Easter and Thanksgiving. Understanding these contextual nuances reveals a much different daily practice and interpretation than often assumed today.

The rich tapestry of early Latter-day Saint history, as illuminated by these detailed discussions, reveals a period of dynamic evolution, diverse interpretations, and profound challenges that shaped a multitude of traditions. From the vibrant construction of the Kirtland Temple to the complex web of succession claims and evolving doctrines, this history offers a compelling narrative of faith, struggle, and the enduring quest for spiritual truth.

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History was made Sunday night in Independence, Missouri. The Community of Christ gathered for the election and ordination of the 1st female prophet president in Community of Christ. It was a a momentous occasion. The focus of the event was Stassi Cramm, who was anticipated to take on this significant leadership role, following Steven Veazey’s retirement. She became the 1st female prophet-president of Community of Christ, and just the 2nd female leader of a Restoration Church since Pauline Hancock.https://youtu.be/y63w2GfFc8YCopyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissionA New Era BeginsIndependence, MO – June 1st, 2025 marked a truly historic day for the Community of Christ, as Stassi Cramm was officially ordained as the new prophet-president. This momentous event, which occurred during the Community of Christ World Conference in Independence, not only signifies a new chapter for the church but also positions Cramm as the first female prophet-president of the Community of Christ. She is also recognized as one of the few female leaders in the broader Restoration movement, following Pauline Hancock.The atmosphere leading up to the ordination was charged with anticipation and excitement. The World Conference began with procedural matters, including a review of rules and the dissolution of the First Presidency. On May 31st, 2025, Stassi Cramm formally accepted her nomination for the role.Road to the VoteThroughout May 31st, caucus meetings were held to discuss the upcoming vote25. Reports from these meetings indicated strong support for Stassi Cramm. The evangelist quorum showed "full support," and in the high priest quorum, "nobody opposed," although some individuals did abstain from voting. While some anticipated that the vote might not be entirely unanimous, the overall sentiment suggested a "slam dunk.” The vote itself was scheduled for 2:00 PM Central time on June 1st, 2025.1st Female ProphetThe ordination service itself was described as "amazing" and "spirit-filled.” Attendees enthusiastically sang "The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning.” There was a palpable sense of "hope" and inspiration among the congregants. The anthem "We'll Rise and we’ll Shout!" was notably sung with great passion, with the organist deeply engaged. Deb Luce remarked on the excitement, expressing that Stassi Cramm had "sparked that [hope] a little bit more" and emphasized the importance of holding onto existing doctrines.For those who might harbor reservations about female ordination, the message was clear: "harden not your hearts" and "allow the spirit to speak.” It was also highlighted that "the voice of God is not a spirit of contention" and that "God won't divide us.”A Legacy of FirstsStassi Cramm's ordination as prophet-president on June 1st, 2025, is a significant milestone, making her the first woman to hold this top leadership position in the Community of Christ. This historic occasion was eagerly awaited, with many anticipating it would be a "history making day.” As one witness to the event noted, it was "awesome" to be there for this moment. Stassi went on to reorganize the Council of 12 Apostles. With some retiring and reassigning others, 6 new apostles were called; Mareva Tchong was reassigned from President of the Apostles to become the new Presiding Evangelist (what LDS would call the Presiding Patriarch.)It was awesome to attend World Conference and witness the 1st female prophet be ordained in the Community of Christ. I'm hoping to get Stassi Cramm on an interview in September. I hope it happens!Check out the video to witness the events of this historic event! What are your thoughts on the news?Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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The Community of Christ has sold the Kirtland Temple and several Nauvoo properties to the LDS Church for a jaw-dropping $200 million. But RLDS finances are still shaky! That money is only expected to keep the church afloat for about five years. Historian John Hamer joins us to explain why he thinks the deal could have been much better, why he’s disappointed there are still no openly gay apostles, and to share his brutally honest thoughts on Steven Veazey’s leadership. Stick around—this conversation pulls no punches.John is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism.https://youtu.be/F3sTvJCWD3cDon’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedDeep Dive into the Kirtland Temple Sale & Path ForwardThe recent sale of the Kirtland Temple sent shockwaves through the Latter Day Saint movement, and for the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS). It highlighted significant and ongoing financial challenges. John Hamer, a Community of Christ historian and Seventy, has offered candid insights into the church's financial state, the controversial temple sale, and his hopes for the future.Kirtland Temple Sale: A "Pittance" and a Crisis of LegitimacyThe sale of the Kirtland Temple to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) for less than $200 million was a deeply troubling event for many in the Community of Christ. John Hamer describes the price as a "pittance," emphasizing that the property's value, particularly in terms of "legitimacy" for the LDS Church, is "priceless" and far exceeds the sale amount. He provocatively suggests that the LDS Church, with its "hundreds of billions of dollars," would not sell the temple for even $200 billion.A major point of contention was the lack of transparency and consultation surrounding the sale. The decision was made "in secret," without any input from the World Conference, the church's "giant legislature". This went against historical precedent, as a previous General Conference had determined that a revelation would be necessary to sell the Kirtland Temple, which had originally been built by revelation.Hamer views the sale as a missed opportunity, stating that it was sold for "a third of what was necessary" for the church to achieve a "sustainable endowment for operations" (which he estimates would have required $600 million.) He suggested that a wealthy family foundation within the Community of Christ could have acquired the assets for the same price, held them as an investment, and then sold them to the LDS Church for a significantly higher amount later, but this option was not considered.Broader RLDS Financial Woes and Leadership AccountabilityThe Kirtland Temple sale is just one symptom of deeper financial struggles within the Community of Christ: Declining Tithing to Headquarters: Over the 20-year tenure of former prophet-president Steve Veazey, "tithing to headquarters... has gone down so precipitously," with only around 6,000 members in the United States and Canada contributing to the world church. Hamer attributes this partly to members feeling their input is ignored when resolutions from the World Conference are ruled "out of order" by the executive leadership. High Operating Costs: The Community of Christ headquarters apparatus costs approximately $2.5 million annually to operate, while its current income is less than $10 million. Unsustainable Endowment: The endowment established to perpetually fund the Independence Temple was, in Hamer's opinion, "invested not like a responsible investor would do" and became "not worth anything" during Veazey's leadership. Unfunded pension obligations also contributed to the financial crisis. Short-Term Fix: The $200 million from the Kirtland Temple sale is projected to sustain headquarters only until "up through 2030," after which "anything goes".

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Changes in RLDS SuccessionLast Spring, John Hamer gave a monumental address about RLDS succession at the JWHA Meetings that literally changed RLDS History. Pres-prophet Steven Veazey had announced his pending retirement in 2 years and said he would choose a successor. John argued in his address that if Veazey did so, it would make his presidency illegitimate as well as whoever he picked. So, the process was changed as a result of his address. He'll give more details. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/2rQnCWIYxqEJohn is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism.Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedFrom Monarchical Tendencies to a "Prophetic People"Historically, leadership in the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS), now Community of Christ, was heavily influenced by the Joseph Smith lineage. Joseph Smith III's succession, recognized by the General Conference (World Conference), established two pillars of legitimacy: appointment by the predecessor and the "royal line" of Joseph Smith, which was seen as holy according to the Book of Mormon. William Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, actively promoted the idea of a Smith "royal seed," drawing parallels to James, the brother of Jesus, leading the early Christian church.However, this tradition soon saw shifts. Joseph III's son, Frederick M. Smith, introduced the concept of "supreme directional control," concentrating power in the First Presidency, which he led. This led to significant internal conflicts, including the resignation of the entire Presiding Bishopric and the departure of prominent figures like R.C. Evans, who felt sidelined despite his own aspirations for leadership.The Smith lineage continued through Joseph III's sons until Wallace B. Smith, a grandson, took the helm. He was a "progressive leader" who, in 1984, initiated the end of priesthood discrimination based on gender (D&C 156), a move that led to schism within the church as "restorationist" groups broke away. Importantly, Wallace B. Smith broke from the Smith lineage tradition by appointing a non-Smith, W. Grant McMurray, as his successor.Grant McMurray's tenure marked another pivotal shift. In D&C 162, he articulated a vision of the church as a "prophetic people, not just a people with a prophet," introducing a new pillar of legitimacy that emphasized discernment and input from the wider church body. This concept challenged the previous monarchical tendencies and opened the door for more democratic forms of leadership.Crisis and Controversy: The Kirtland Temple Sale and Succession PlansGrant McMurray's abrupt resignation in 2004, without appointing a successor, created a succession crisis, effectively breaking the chain of appointment. In response, a special World Conference was called, and the First Presidency assigned the Council of Twelve Apostles to choose the next prophet, who turned out to be Steve Veazey.Steve Veazey's 20-year presidency, however, was marked by significant financial struggles for the church, leading to an "unmitigated decline". This culminated in the controversial sale of the historic Kirtland Temple for less than $200 million. Critics, including historian John Hamer, argued that the sale was conducted "in secret" and for "a pittance," insufficient for the church's long-term financial sustainability. The World Conference had previously required a revelation to sell the Kirtland Temple, highlighting the lack of transparency in the recent transaction.Adding to the controversy, Steve Veazey announced a plan to personally select his successor. John Hamer publicly argued that this move would "retroactively completely delegitimize" Veazey's tenure and render his chosen successor illegitimate, as it contradicted the principle of a "prophetic people" and the broken chain of appo...

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John Hamer makes the surprising argument that the Auditorium is, in fact, a Community of Christ temple on the Temple Lot! This is a claim even many RLDS members have never heard. Why does he say this? It ties back to the unfinished temple project of the Church of Christ (Temple Lot), also known as the Hedrickites. For a time, the two churches were essentially constructing rival temples side by side on the historic temple lot. Join us as we dive into this fascinating story!https://youtu.be/eWnSy5Qeh9kJohn is the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism.Don’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedThe concept and construction of temples have been a central, yet often contentious, aspect of the Restoration movement. While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) is well-known for its extensive temple building, other branches of the Restoration tradition have also grappled with their own unique visions and challenges regarding sacred spaces. Historian John Hamer sheds light on the fascinating, and sometimes fraught, history of temple competition and diverse practices among groups like the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS), the Hedrickites, Strangites, and Cutlerites.The Community of Christ's Dual Temple VisionFor the Community of Christ, the idea of a "temple" has taken on multiple forms, leading to what some might see as competing sacred spaces. The Auditorium as a Temple: The Community of Christ Auditorium, located on the "greater Temple Lot" in Independence, Missouri, was envisioned by Fred M. Smith as a temple, though he used the modern term "auditorium". Construction began in 1929 during the Great Depression, incurring significant debt. This massive structure, designed for conferences, worship, training, learning, and church headquarters offices, aligned with Joseph Smith III's earlier vision for an Independence temple. Hamer explicitly states that the Auditorium is the temple for the reorganization, a fact often overlooked even within the Community of Christ itself. The Independence Temple: Despite the Auditorium's existence, Fred M. Smith's brother, W. Wallace Smith, who succeeded him as prophet, received revelations about the need to build a temple. This led to the construction of the architecturally magnificent "Spiral Temple," also known as the Community of Christ Temple. Its design incorporates the Fibonacci sequence, symbolizing divine ratios and connecting to ancient Greek civilization, and was a significant draw for Hamer to join the Community of Christ. Hamer suggests that the lack of institutional memory regarding the Auditorium's original purpose might have contributed to the decision to build a second temple.Hedrickites and the Battle for the Temple LotThe Church of Christ (Temple Lot), also know as the Hedrickites the earliest Restoration branch to return to Jackson County, Missouri. They hold a key portion of "the Temple Lot". This property was part of a much larger parcel Edward Partridge originally bought for a total of 24 temples. RLDS Aggression and Backfire: The RLDS Church made aggressive attempts to acquire this land through lawsuits and a "sneaky" plan for "free association". The idea was to absorb the tiny Temple Lot Church, which at the time had minimal active leadership. Otto Fetting/Competing Structures: This plan dramatically backfired when a thousand RLDS members, including Otto Fetting, transferred their membership to the Temple Lot Church. Otto Fetting then began receiving revelations to build a temple, which, strikingly, was designed as an Auditorium-like structure with assembly halls and offices, echoing the former RLDS members' understanding of temples. This created a direct architectural and spiritual competition with the Community of Christ's Auditorium. The Hedrickites believe they found cornerstones ...

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The struggle for leadership of the LDS Church between Sidney Rigdon and Brigham Young still echoes today. One lasting outcome is the practice of dissolving the First Presidency at the prophet’s death—a move meant to underscore that Rigdon was never recognized as Joseph Smith’s rightful successor. Historian John Hamer of the Community of Christ joins us to examine Rigdon’s claims, even arguing that Sidney may have had the strongest case for leadership. We’ll also explore the church Rigdon established, now the third-largest “Mormon” denomination. Don’t miss this fascinating discussion!https://youtu.be/jWzGoa9LXXQDon’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedWe delve deep into the complexities of LDS (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and RLDS (Community of Christ) succession after the death of Joseph Smith in 1844, and how this crisis shaped the leadership structures and beliefs of both churches.LDS Succession after Joseph Smith's Death (1844) Lack of a Defined System: There was no pre-existing system for succession written in the Doctrine and Covenants. The process that unfolded was largely shaped by the personalities and power dynamics of the time. Sidney Rigdon's Claim: Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith's counselor in the First Presidency, claimed the role of "guardian" of the church. This was akin to a regent in a monarchy, intended to lead until Joseph Smith III, who was then a child, could assume leadership. Brigham Young's Maneuver: Brigham Young argued that following the martyrdom, a prophet in the flesh was no longer needed, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles should act as the First Presidency. This led to the group initially being called "Twelve-ites" by other branches. Timeframe to Leadership: It took three years for Brigham Young to transition from the president of the Quorum of the Twelve to the official prophet of the church. During this period, he acted as "acting president".Elimination of Rivals and Decentralization of Power:◦ William Marks and the Standing High Council: William Marks, president of the Standing High Council, was seen as a rival to Brigham Young. The Standing High Council, which had previously held equal or even superior authority to the traveling Quorum of the Twelve, particularly in organized stakes, was effectively demoted into stake high councils. This move eliminated an institutional rival and concentrated power.◦ Presiding Bishopric: Similarly, the powerful role of the Presiding Bishop, who controlled temporalities and could act as a leadership rival, was demoted by Brigham Young, who created numerous bishops, reducing the role to a congregational position. Retroactive Legitimacy: The LDS Church's practice of dissolving the First Presidency upon the prophet's death and the automatic succession of the senior-most apostle were established to retroactively delegitimize Sidney Rigdon's claim and ensure the legitimacy of subsequent LDS presidents. This automatic succession became rapid over time, especially after Joseph F. Smith, as leaders realized the difficulty of running the church without a quick transition. Non-Apostolic First Presidency: In the early church, the First Presidency (including Hyrum Smith and Sidney Rigdon) was distinct from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.Sidney Rigdon's Church and the Bickertonites Rigdon's Failed Efforts: After excommunicating each other, Sidney Rigdon started his own church in Pittsburgh, which eventually atomized.. John Hamer's ancestor, William Winchester, briefly served as one of Rigdon's apostles. Emergence of the Bickertonites: The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonites) originated from a branch in Pittsburgh led by William Bickerton, who had been Rigdon's last apostle. This group reorganized after William Bickerton and his followers broke with Brigham Young's church when poly...

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We'll discuss controversial RLDS beliefs with John Hamer, a Seventy with the Community of Christ. We're focusing on the 1844 succession crisis, its lasting impact on both the LDS and Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) churches. He's the co-author of Scattering of the Saints: Schism Within Mormonism. Don’t miss this fascinating discussion!https://youtu.be/mscrLYLKZs000:00 How 1844 Succession Affects Us Today8:15 How Baptism For Dead Was De-canonized14:22 Will Book of Mormon Be De-canonized?24:10 Black Priesthood in Community of Christ36:37 3 Official Languages in CoCCopyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedSuccession Crisis and its Legacy:◦ The 1844 schism "froze" both churches into peculiar systems, as each justified its own succession to assert legitimacy.◦ LDS Church Succession: Brigham Young's claim relied on his position as the senior-most apostle, a concept that was not established doctrine in 1844 but emerged from the crisis.◦ Community of Christ (RLDS) Succession: Joseph Smith III's claim was supported by patriarchal blessings and prophecies. His acceptance of the prophet role in 1860 solidified the General Conference's (legislative) authority to choose the prophet. Sidney Rigdon also made a claim to leadership, presenting himself as a "guardian of the church.”◦ The Mark Hofmann forgery of Joseph Smith Jr.'s blessing to Joseph Smith III is discussed, noting its incorrect date caused dissonance Jerald & Sandra Tanner. It was acquired by the LDS Church, which then traded it to the RLDS Church for a copy of the Book of Commandments. The RLDS Church put it in the appendix of their version of the Doctrine & Covenants & then later removed this forgery from its historical appendix through a "historical appendectomy.”RLDS Doctrine and Covenants and De-canonization:◦ The Community of Christ's Doctrine and Covenants is an active scripture, with new sections added through votes by elected representatives at World Conferences. The conference also has the power to remove sections, which it has done several times.◦ Baptism for the Dead: This practice was removed from the RLDS Doctrine and Covenants, largely due to the church's desire to distance itself from associations with LDS temples and practices, particularly those perceived as "secret" or "embarrassing.” John Hamer expresses a nuanced view, considering it meaningless as a necessary saving ordinance for random names but "incredibly valid and amazing" as a spiritual practice for connecting with cherished ancestors (e.g., Jane Manning James).◦ Blacks in the Priesthood (RLDS): Joseph Smith III's 1860s revelation allowed black men to hold the priesthood but included a racist caveat to "be not hasty" in ordaining them, reflecting the prevailing societal racism of the 1860s. A recent World Conference resolution to remove this section was voted down, with John Hamer arguing against removal to avoid setting a precedent of "Jefferson Bible" editing scripture.◦ De-canonization of the Book of Mormon: There's a "dig" (and potential validity) that the Community of Christ "doesn't believe in the Book of Mormon" in the same way other groups do. Some leaders and members, traumatized by the "New Mormon History" and historical-literary criticism suggesting the Book of Mormon is a 19th-century construct, have proposed to "jettison all of this stuff.” However, others, especially older members, find it essential to their identity. John Hamer "firmly anticipates" a resolution to remove the Book of Mormon from the canon, though he personally opposes it.Controversial Beliefs: Understanding Scripture◦ John Hamer advocates for viewing scripture as "errant, not inerrant.” He believes scripture is a "human response to God's revelation," filled with the "biases and limitations of every prophet.”◦ He argues against treating scripture as a "perfect idol" or a "literalistic rule book,

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I’m excited to welcome John Hamer back to the show. John is a Seventy in the Community of Christ and a remarkable historian of Restoration Churches. Earlier this month, he was in Utah for the 50th Anniversary of Sunstone, and today we’ll be talking about the many ways to Mormon, including some of the Restoration Churches/schismatic groups that were represented at Sunstone. This episode will be part of a broader conversation about various Latter Day Saint schismatic movements. Join us for the discussion!https://youtu.be/1-hvle_929oDon’t miss our other episodes with John Hamer! https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-hamer/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExploring the "Multiple Ways to Mormon" at Sunstone's 50th AnniversaryThe recent 50th anniversary of the Sunstone Symposium in Utah provided a unique opportunity to delve into the rich and diverse landscape of the Mormon culture and restoration heritage. John Hamer is a three-time guest on Gospel Tangents and a Seventy with the Community of Christ. Sunstone serves as an "open diverse forum" that welcomes individuals from all backgrounds, whether they are orthodox LDS, fundamentalists, or members of the Community of Christ. This gathering truly embodies the idea that there is "more than one way to Mormon".There are various schismatic groups that emerged after the pivotal 1844 schism which Joseph Smith died. These groups form distinct branches of the restoration tradition, each with its own unique history and practices.Major Restoration Churches of the RestorationFollowing the 1844 schism, two primary branches emerged: The Brighamite Branch: This branch is by far the largest expression of the restoration tradition. It includes:◦ The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church).◦ All of the fundamentalist churches, such as the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) which is also called “The Work”, & the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS Church).◦ The "new emerging remnant movement" with Denver Snuffer. The Josephite Branch: Named for Joseph Smith III, this branch includes the Community of Christ, formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Within the Josephite tradition, there are also:◦ Independent expressions or "restorationists". These groups broke away from the mainline Community of Christ Church over issues like women in the priesthood and lineal succession. Some of these have grouped together in a confederacy of churches, like the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB. See our interview with apostle Patrick McKay.)◦ The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is considered a "restorationist church" by Josephites. Figures like Terry Patience, the new prophet-president, and Jim Vun Cannon have been prominent within this church. (Jim now leads a different church, the Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Day.) These "Josephite fundamentalists" are distinct from polygamists.Lesser-Known but Significant Restoration ChurchesSunstone also provides a platform for understanding smaller, yet historically significant, schismatic groups: The Bickertonites (Church of Jesus Christ with headquarters in Monongahela, Pennsylvania):◦ They are generally considered the third largest branch to emerge after the 1844 schism, with an estimated 25,000 members.◦ They see themselves as "the true one true church" and are noted for retaining spiritual gifts from the Kirtland era, including speaking in tongues and spontaneous services. Their services feature spontaneous talks and no pre-written bulletins, similar to practices found in the Centennial Park group.◦ Their heartlands are primarily in Pittsburgh and Detroit.◦ Notably, they have recently produced an academically trained historian, Daniel Stone, who has focused on William Bickerton and their own history.

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Following the dissolution of her marriage, Sonia Johnson came up with her own view of gender essentialism and had some lesbian relationships. Was she bisexual, or a political lesbian? Dr Chris Talbot explains. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/glgWdkMlcJ8Don’t miss our other episodes with Dr Chris Talbot! https://gospeltangents.com/people/chris-talbot/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Unpacking Sonia Johnson: Relationships, Radical Philosophy, & ERA's Shadowy PoliticsIn a fascinating deep dive with biographer Dr. Chris Talbot, we’ll dive into the life of Mormon feminist Sonia Johnson, particularly after her divorce and excommunication from the LDS Church, we gain intriguing insights into her evolving relationships, her radical philosophy, and the church's complex involvement in the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) debate.Sonia Johnson's Journey: From Excommunication to Political LesbianismOne of the most striking ironies discussed is how the church and conservatives worried that passing the ERA would lead to widespread lesbianism and homosexuality, only for Sonia Johnson herself to become a lesbian. This development, however, was framed less as a sexual reorientation in the conventional sense and more as a "political lesbianism." This phenomenon, as described by historians, involved a conscious choice to devote oneself to women as a collective or "species," building one's life around these devotions, which inherently meant avoiding intimate relationships with men. For Johnson, this commitment stemmed from her profound desire to reject male-centered, patriarchal societal structures; she declared, "No man will ever become the center of my life again".The nature of her sexuality is explored with nuance, acknowledging that sexuality is fluid and not always confined to "discrete categories". While Johnson had four children and didn't seem to have a history of sexual attraction to women prior to her excommunication, this attraction reportedly "grew in her as she moved along" after the traumatic experience. The question of whether she was a "fake lesbian" or "real lesbian" is dismissed as largely a matter of "socially constructed categories".Radical Critique of RelationshipsSonia Johnson's post-excommunication relationships were not without their challenges. Her first lesbian relationship, with her therapist, ended poorly due to ethical issues and her partner's managerial role. This experience profoundly shaped Johnson's philosophy on relationships, culminating in her fourth book, The Ship That Sailed into the Living Room.At the heart of her critique was the idea that relationships, by their very nature, are built around hierarchy. Johnson articulated a discomfort with the "driving and being driven" dynamic in sexual encounters, finding it personally, politically, and philosophically troubling. She argued that even in alternating roles, relationships inherently embed a power imbalance.This anti-hierarchy stance extended to her view on monogamy and marriage. She didn't want anyone to marry anyone, viewing monogamous commitments as inherently "restrictive and controlling" of one's sexuality and love. Interestingly, her critique resonated with a small polyamory community in Salt Lake City, who saw her work as a guide to why monogamy was problematic due to its inherent hierarchy.After another unsuccessful relationship, Johnson eventually found a long-term partner, Jade Deforest. Their relationship is built on a unique "touching experiment," detailed in her fifth book, Out of This World. The core principle is self-motivated touching – touching for the pleasure of the act itself, rather than to elicit a specific feeling in the other person. This approach aims to eliminate the perceived hierarchy, as "someone's driving and someone's being driven".

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This is a rebroadcast. The 1838 Mormon Missouri War remains a pivotal and often tragic chapter in Latter-day Saint history. We’re revisiting an interview with Steven LeSueur, an esteemed historian and author of what is considered by many to be the definitive book on the conflict, "The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri.” LeSueur, who sadly passed away in July 2025, was remembered for his significant contributions to understanding this complex period.https://youtu.be/YGlNLnA9RIAHistorian Behind the BookLeSueur, who lived in Arlington, Virginia, was not a full-time historian. He described his career primarily as a journalist, covering national defense issues, editing a technology magazine, and working as a freelance writer for businesses before his retirement. Despite this, his historical expertise was profound. His seminal book, published in 1987 by the University of Missouri Press, originated from his master's thesis in American history at George Mason University.His interest in Missouri history stemmed from early research work he did for Lamar Barrett at BYU in 1976-1977, immediately after graduating with his undergraduate history degree from BYU. This early work involved delving into diaries and letters to find references to "Adam's altar" (Adam-ondi-Ahman) and exploring various historical sites in Missouri. For his book, LeSueur conducted extensive research at the Library of Congress, Utah archives, and multiple trips to Missouri, even staying with prominent Community of Christ historian Bill Russell, who, along with Valeen Tippets Avery, reviewed his manuscript.LeSueur also lent his expertise to a documentary called "Trouble in Zion," where he was one of several "talking heads" discussing the Mormon experience in Missouri, sharing his interpretations of the events.Seeds of Conflict: Beyond Simple BlameLeSueur’s approach to the Mormon Missouri War focuses on understanding how events unfolded, emphasizing a snowball effect of reactions rather than a grand conspiracy. While recognizing the immense suffering of the Mormons, he seeks to explain why Missourians reacted as they did.Key events & LeSueur's interpretations include: Jackson County Expulsion (1832): The Mormons were unjustly driven from Jackson County, having done nothing wrong. While a newspaper article about "Free People of Color" was a point of contention, LeSueur suggests Missourians' misinterpretation was likely driven by their deep-seated fear of anything perceived as attacking slavery, rather than solely as an excuse to expel Mormons. The Caldwell County Compromise (1836): After Mormons were driven from Jackson and found refuge in Clay County, Joseph Smith's plans for another military expedition prompted fearful Clay County citizens to propose creating a county exclusively for Mormons – Caldwell County. This was shepherded by Alexander Doniphan. The "Broken Agreement": Missourians largely believed that, in exchange for Caldwell County, Mormons had implicitly agreed to settle only there. LeSueur found no such agreement in Mormon sources, but Missourians, including Doniphan, clearly perceived it. For about a year and a half (late 1836 into 1838), relations were relatively peaceful, resting on this perceived agreement. Joseph Smith's Arrival and Mormon Expansion (March 1838): When Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon moved from Kirtland to Missouri, Far West (in Caldwell County) became the new gathering place, and plans for expansion beyond Caldwell into Davies (Adam-ondi-Ahman) and Carroll (Dewitt) counties began. This expansion, especially large-scale settlements, was seen by Missourians as breaking the agreement and triggered renewed protests. The Danites: This paramilitary organization was formed in June 1838, primarily by Samson Avard and others. Initially, their purpose was internal regulation, enforcing orthodoxy and the law of consecration among Mormons. They notably drove dissenters like Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers from Fa...

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This is a re-broadcast of my 2023 interview with Steve LeSueur. Unfortunately Steve passed away from pancreatic cancer on July 1, 2025.Mormons were part of the untamed world of the Wild West—complete with outlaws, shootouts, and the kind of drama you'd expect straight out of a western film. In this episode, Steve LeSueur shares the gripping story of his great-uncle Frank LeSueur and his friend Gus Gibbons, who were murdered by the notorious outlaw gang known as The Wild Bunch. There’s even a surprising connection to the infamous Butch Cassidy. Join us as we explore the real dangers Mormons faced on the frontier. Don’t miss our conversation...https://youtu.be/QcPqQ7TQPrEDon’t miss our other conversations with Steve: https://gospeltangents.com/people/steve-lesueur/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Today, we're sharing a powerful story that highlights the often-overlooked human cost of the Wild West era, brought to life by a historian who deeply personal connection to the past. We're talking about Steve LeSueur, a wonderful historian and author who sadly passed away in July 2025 due to pancreatic cancer. This post is a tribute to his work and his last interview on Gospel Tangents, where he discussed his remarkable book, Life and Death on the Mormon Frontier: The Murders of Frank LeSueur and Gus Gibbons by The Wild Bunch, published by Greg Kofford Books.Steve LeSueur was driven to explore a piece of his own family history that had been shrouded in mystery for generations. His great-uncle, Frank LeSueur, was murdered by outlaws in 1900. While his family always knew Frank was killed, the details were scarce, and the killers were believed to have gotten away with little effort to capture them. His grandfather, Carl LeSueur, Frank's younger brother, was only five when Frank was killed and didn't have many details to share. For over a century, it was largely considered "some minor episode in western history".However, in recent years, historians and biographers specializing in outlaws like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid began to point fingers. These historians, some of whom had Mormon ties, suggested that Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch gang were the likely culprits behind Frank's death. This new information ignited Steve's interest, drawing him into a deeper investigation.What truly set Steve's work apart was his unique perspective: focusing on the victims. As he noted, historians often prioritize the outlaws, their daring heists, and exciting getaways, treating victims as mere "bit players" or "extras in a movie". Steve, however, looked at the events from the victim's point of view, reading journals, diaries, and reminiscences left behind by Latter-day Saints in the community. He discovered a compelling story that offered numerous insights into both the outlaws and the community itself. It turns out, not many people have an ancestor killed by a famous outlaw.Despite the year being 1900, which might sound somewhat modern, the setting for this tragedy was truly still the Wild West. Frank LeSueur's murder occurred just outside St. Johns, Arizona, a "dusty cattle and sheep town". In 1900, this town had no electricity and no running water. It was an era where cars and airplanes were not yet commonplace.Steve LeSueur's research has profoundly enhanced our understanding of this specific Wild West tragedy, shifting the narrative to those who suffered the most. His book stands as a vital contribution to history, reminding us that every "bit player" has a story worth telling. We miss Steve greatly, and our hearts go out to his family.Don’t miss our other conversations with Steve: https://gospeltangents.com/people/steve-lesueur/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Come see the site where James Strang was killed as we explore the captivating history of Beaver Island, a unique gem in Lake Michigan, especially its ties to James Strang and his Mormon community.https://youtu.be/xdnR28tTeEsDon’t miss our other conversations about Strangism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/strangites/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.3 Mormon Print Shop Arrival and Reign of King StrangJames Strang, a self-proclaimed prophet, settled on Beaver Island around 1848, having arrived in 1847. He led a group of Mormon dissenters who broke away from Brigham Young's leadership and settled on the island in 1846. By 1850, Strang was declared King of his community, which constituted the majority of the island's population. The main hub of the island is even named St. James, after him. Strang's influence extended to societal norms, where he apparently mandated that women wear bloomers or pants to prevent pneumonia, with husbands being whipped if their wives didn't comply. He also reportedly told non-Mormons (like the Irish settlers and original Ottawa/Ojibwe inhabitants) that they needed to convert, leave, or pay a tax.The Mormon Print ShopA pivotal location in Strang's community was the Old Mormon Printing House, erected in 1850 by Strang and his followers2. This building was significant as it published the Northern Islander, which was the first daily newspaper north of Grand Rapids. During the 1850s, Strang's group published religious works and two newspapers: the Northern Islander and the Daily Northern Islander. After Strang's assassination, the print shop was ransacked and later became a boarding house. Today, it stands as a museum and serves as the headquarters for the Beaver Island Historical Society.Tragic End of King StrangThe growing friction within Beaver Island's Mormon community reached a violent climax in 1856. James Jesse Strang was fatally shot and clubbed by two of his disgruntled followers while walking towards the dock to meet the captain of the USS Michigan. These assassins were reportedly hiding behind a woodpile near the Johnson McCulla store. It's notable that two of the assassins were husbands who had been whipped under Strang's controversial bloomers policy. Strang died from his wounds 23 days later. The assassins were taken to Mackinaw Island by the USS Michigan's captain, who refused to allow the Mormon police to arrest them. They were soon released by the Mackinaw sheriff, celebrated by Strang's enemies, and astonishingly, each was fined only 50 cents, though the exact charge is unknown.The Aftermath and Island LifeIn the wake of Strang's assassination, an angry mob from the mainland stormed Beaver Island, destroying buildings and forcing the Mormons to flee. Beaver Island is the only island in Lake Michigan inhabited year-round, with a population of 500 to 800 people that swells to 3,000 in the summer. The island has a strong Irish presence, with many historical inhabitants speaking Gaelic and even naming a local bay "Donegal Bay" after a place in Ireland. Historically, the island's primary industries were lumber and fishing. Overfishing, particularly using a now-outlawed net fishing method, led to severe depletion, prompting Michigan and other states to ban the practice. Today, tourism is the main industry. The island didn't even get electricity until around 1939.Beaver Island Townships CemeteryVisitors can also explore the Beaver Island Townships Cemetery, one of two cemeteries on the island (the other being a Catholic cemetery). The oldest grave dates back to 1853, within James Strang's era. An interesting feature of the cemetery is the presence of posts marking older graves where the original wooden crosses have long since deteriorated, indicating a body is buried there even if the identity is unknown. The second oldest grave,

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See what a local historian thinks about James Strang as we tour the town of St James on Beaver Island, Michigan. Check out the conversation!https://youtu.be/wBl1C55HoyYDon’t miss our other conversations about Strangism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/strangites/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Beaver Island: A Journey Through Time and Tyranny in Lake MichiganWelcome to Beaver Island, often called "America's Emerald Isle," a fascinating gem in Lake Michigan with a history as rich and diverse as its landscape. If you've ever wondered about year-round island life, a unique Mormon kingdom, or the rise of an Irish community, you're in the right place!Island Life: Year-Round Charm and Seasonal BustleBeaver Island is unique as the only island in Lake Michigan with a year-round population. While around 600-800 people call it home in the winter, the population swells to 3,000-4,000 during the summer months. Access to the island is primarily by private boat or air service, as ferries only run until mid-December.The main community, St. James, named after James Jesse Strang himself, is where most businesses are concentrated, including the year-round community center, taverns like the Shamrock bar and restaurant, a motel, and a hardware store that also houses a gift shop and vet clinic. Many other businesses, like some restaurants and a bicycle/boat rental shop, are open only in the summer.Historically, the island's economy relied heavily on commercial fishing, with fish being salted or iced down and sent via ferry to Charlevoix for further rail transport to cities like Indianapolis or Chicago. Hotels also played a main role in the economy for many years.Unforgettable Reign of King StrangA significant chapter in Beaver Island's history revolves around James Jesse Strang, a controversial figure who established a Mormon colony here. Strang arrived on the island around 1847-1848, with his colony reaching approximately 1,500 people by the time of his death in 1856.Strang was an ambitious leader, and his people surveyed Beaver Island for the first time in 1848. He named the town of St. James after himself and began building a highway, the King's Highway, also named after himself. His colony was so established that they even had a daily newspaper, the only one north of Grand Rapids at the time.However, Strang's rule was often described as tyrannical by the tour guide. He quickly made enemies with his policies: He mandated that anyone wishing to stay on the island had to become a Mormon or pay him a tax or leave. This drove many people off the island, though some reluctantly converted because they had nowhere else to go. He authorized his followers to steal fish from other fishermen's nets and even take items from the homes of fishermen who were out at sea, according to the guide. Initially, Strang was against plural marriages, but a couple of years after arriving, he embraced polygamy, taking four more wives after his first wife, Mary, left him and returned to Wisconsin. He was also known for peculiar practices, such as having his people build a dock just a few inches under the water in Font Lake (named for baptismal font) so he could appear to be "walking on water" when baptizing his followers.Strang also left a lasting mark on the island's geography by naming several places with biblical references. Examples include: Font Lake, where baptisms took place. Mount Pisgah, a hill named after the biblical Mount Pisgah from which Jesus preached. It became a popular spot for people to climb. A lake on the south side of the island was called Lake Jaz or Lake Galilee, corresponding to the Sea of Galilee in the Holy Land.Interestingly, Strang was a well-educated man who passed the Michigan bar exam and could practice law. This legal expertise proved useful,

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Come along on this journey to Beaver Island, where James Strang was crowned King! We'll learn more about this early Mormon prophet. I’m taking you on a journey to Beaver Island, Michigan, a place central to the intriguing story of James Strang and his followers. You don't want to miss this!https://youtu.be/MPrutzK6ljQDon’t miss our other conversations about Strangism: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/strangites/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. James Strang: From Convert to ContenderThe tale begins with James Strang, a relatively recent convert to Mormonism, having joined the church just a few months before Joseph Smith sent him on a mission to Wisconsin. After Joseph Smith was killed on June 27, 1844, James Strang made two significant claims to succeed Smith: Angelic Ordination: Strang claimed that the angel Moroni appeared to him and ordained him to be the next prophet1. Letter of Appointment: He also presented a letter, purportedly from Joseph Smith, dated June 18, with a postmark from Nauvoo, Illinois, on June 19.The authenticity of this "letter of appointment" has been a major point of contention. Brigham Young immediately deemed it a forgery. A peculiar postmark (due to a piece of lint in the Nauvoo stamp) was used at the Nauvoo post office. Young followers claimed this was evidence of a forgery. However, when it was shown to be on other letters, Strang used as proof of authenticity.Michael Quinn, a historian, believed the letter was a fraud or forgery. Quinn noted that the signature was written in block letters and Joseph Smith's signature did not match his usual signature, although he acknowledged Joseph often used scribes. Quinn speculated that Strang might have taken a genuine letter from Nauvoo and written on it himself, with the postmark appearing to be genuine. The letter itself was vague, not explicitly naming Strang as the new church president, but rather seeming to put him in charge of the church in Wisconsin, a role Strang might have "inflated".Despite the controversy, Strang attracted some notable converts, including Joseph Smith's brother, William Smith, as well as John Page, Martin Harris, and William Marks, with several members of the Smith family initially encouraging him.Kingdom on Beaver IslandStrang eventually received a revelation to move his community from Wisconsin to Beaver Island, Michigan before 1850. On Beaver Island, James Strang, much like Joseph Smith with the Council of 50, was ordained a king. This ambition, where Mormons attempted to take over the government, often led to conflict with surrounding communities.Tragedy and ScatteringThe Strangite community on Beaver Island ultimately faced a tragic end. In 1856, James Strang was assassinated on the dock by former Strangites. These individuals are referred to as "pseudos" or "pseudo-Mormons" by Strangites, distinguishing them from the LDS term "apostates". Strang was shot. Though not killed immediately, he succumbed to his wounds about three weeks later.Following his assassination, the US Navy, which was patrolling Lake Michigan for pirates, scattered all the people on Beaver Island. They were dropped off in various ports, often penniless and without food or money, a "terrible tragedy" that led to the scattering of Strangites. Today, while the largest congregation is believed to be in Burlington, Wisconsin (which James Strang called Voree), smaller groups exist in New Mexico, Colorado, and potentially West Virginia.Planning Your Visit to Beaver IslandFor those intrigued by this unique historical site, Beaver Island is accessible by ferry or plane. Travel from Grand Rapids: My journey started at Gerald R. Ford Airport in Grand Rapids, Michigan. From there, it's about a three-hour drive to Charlevoix, Michigan, the departure point for the ferry or small plane.

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Should BYU be renamed Over Slavery? Many argue that BYU should be renamed since slavery was legalized in Utah? Bishop Abraham Smoot also owned slaves and his name is on the Smoot Administration Building. What do BYU alumni Paul Reeve & Christopher Rich think of this proposal?https://youtu.be/L3pHOIv6DIsDon’t miss our other conversations with Paul Reeve! https://gospeltangents.com/people/paul-reeve/Copyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.What Do Critics Say?GT: Okay. Well, it’s only been out what, four days right now?Paul: People are starting to actually get their copies, yes. So, I know there’s a peer review process because clearly, the public hasn’t had a chance to push back on you guys. But have you guys gotten any pushback on your book that you can share?Paul: Well, I mean, there’s some skepticism on the interpretation of, is An Act in Relation to Service a form of gradual emancipation. Right?GT: Okay.Paul: Oxford has anonymous peer reviewers. Right? And so, I think we had really good peer reviewers who pressed us on some of the claims that we made. And I think we refined our arguments as a result. so I think what is published is more refined than the original draft. And we simply acknowledge they removed 18 words that we believe would’ve passed on the condition of servitude to the next generation, but they don’t replace those 18 words with “therefore you can’t pass on the condition to the next generation,” positive language that would have said, “we’re not passing on the condition.” So it’s left up to us to infer that their intent was that the condition not pass on to the next generation. We actually offer readers a scan of the original draft of the bill where they cross out those 18 words. And then we provide our own transcript. right? So you can read for yourself the original version of the bill with those 18 words included and then with those 18 words removed. What do you think the intent was? If you take out the clause that would’ve passed on the condition to the next generation, we think that means the intent of lawmakers was that it not pass on, and therefore, that creates a gradual form of emancipation. But that’s open for interpretation. right?GT: Well.Paul: They deliberately—well, we don’t know about deliberately. They draft the bill ambiguously and we don’t know if that’s because they’re just not great lawmakers, or if they’re doing it deliberately.GT: Well, and the question is, are we aware of any children born between say, 1852 and 1862 that slavery was passed onto them? Are you aware of that?Christopher: So, we tried to look at that, and there’s just not a whole lot of evidence. So, any of the children who were actually born in Utah, by 1862, if we use that as the basic end date, still would have been minors. So, they still would have been living with their parents in the homes of their masters. And we do find evidence that they are there. There is some evidence that some children were sold. Now, those children weren’t born in Utah. So, you can make the argument that the law didn’t cover them, but it was a very small number of children. By the 1860s, I think it was roughly 10. So, we try to make a case of, based on the language of the law, this is what should have happened, but we don’t know for sure what would have happened in practice had the law continued on for another 10, or 15, or 20 years.GT: So it’s just too short of a timeframe.Paul: Correct.GT: Okay.Paul: And we make the point that if you are a child, you arrive in Utah territory, you can die enslaved in Utah territory. Right? This only applied to those who would be born in Utah territory after arrival.GT: Right.Paul: That’s how the law is written. So, if you’re born in 1852, you’re only 10 years old by 1862. You’re still living with your parents.

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Recently, I had the fascinating opportunity to delve into the beliefs practices, and Strangite priesthood views with Gary Weber of the Strangite Church, a lesser-known branch of Mormonism. This discussion sheds light on many intriguing aspects of their faith, highlighting both commonalities and distinct differences from the more widely known LDS (Latter-day Saint) Church.https://youtu.be/GvLjkF8kqmsUnderstanding Strangite Priesthood: A Core DifferenceOne of the most significant distinctions discussed was the Strangite understanding of the priesthood and its associated "keys." While the Melchizedek priesthood holds specific keys related to office, it does not encompass all keys. According to Gary Weber, the Melchizedek priesthood cannot evolve to ordain a prophet. Instead, they believe a prophet can only be ordained by an angel, as was the case for Moses, Joseph Smith, and James J. Strang. The fundamental principle here is that "the lesser cannot ordain the greater".This leads to a critical differentiation of priesthood keys: Keys of Mysteries and Revelations: These keys are associated only with the prophet-lawgiver and can only be held by one person at a time. Gary Weber states that James J. Strang could not have been ordained by angels while Joseph Smith was alive but was ordained the moment Joseph Smith died. Keys of the Kingdom: These keys can be possessed by many people, as seen with the twelve apostles who were given these keys to spread the gospel to nations. They can also confer these keys to others, with hundreds potentially holding them.Gary noted that many members of the LDS Church often don't understand this distinction between the two types of keys.Sacrament Practices: Purity and PurposeThe Strangite Church observes the sacrament once a month, rather than weekly like the LDS Church. Their reasoning is that frequent observance could make it "mundane" and cause it to "lose its specialness and sacredness".The elements used for the sacrament also have specific requirements: Juice: Any edible fresh fruit juice is acceptable, as stated in their book of law under the Eucharist. Examples include orange juice, which was used when Gary grew up in Artesia, or fresh processed grape juice from their vineyard. If no juice is available, water can be used, emphasizing the focus on one's "eye singleness to God" and the purpose of remembering Christ's blood. Typically Strangites use some sort of fresh juice (not store-bought) for the sacrament. This assures the juice has not been adulterated. Bread: Must be made of any grain, prepared by the members themselves, not store-bought. This is to ensure its purity and prevent it from being "adulterated".Other Doctrines and Practices: Baptism: They baptize at age eight, aligning with the LDS Church, based on the Doctrine and Covenants and a belief that children at this age have scientifically reached a maturity level to understand right from wrong. Baptism can occur in a church font or natural bodies of water like the White River, depending on personal preference. Priesthood Recognition: The Strangite Church does not recognize the priesthood of other churches, including the LDS priesthood, as they trace their priesthood lineage back through Joseph Smith and James J. Strang. Communion: They practice a closed communion, meaning it is only served to those who have been baptized, taken upon Christ's name, and are deemed worthy, as stated in the Book of Mormon by Jesus to the Nephites. Missionary Work: Unlike the door-to-door approach of many LDS missionaries, Strangites engage in a more limited form of proselytization. They will travel to baptize individuals with whom they've corresponded and who show genuine interest, sometimes over many months. Interestingly, Gary expressed that the wider recognition of the "Mormon" name, largely due to the LDS Church's efforts, has made it easier for Strangites to teach Mormonism,

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Welcome to an exploration of one of the most distinctive branches of Mormonism: the Strangite Church. We will discuss Strangite women's role in priesthood. While many are familiar with the larger Latter-day Saint movements, the Strangites offer a fascinating glimpse into different interpretations and practices rooted in early Restorationism. Based primarily in Burlington, Wisconsin, the Strangite Church has a rich history, unique theological perspectives, and surprising elements that set it apart.https://youtu.be/61quRH-_glIResilient Community/Promised RefugeAccording to the revelations of James J. Strang, Voree was prophesied to be a refuge for the people, where "the Gentiles would treat you with kindness". Remarkably, the Strangites in Voree have never experienced the persecution that other Mormon settlements faced in places like Palmyra, Kirtland, Independence, or Nauvoo. This consistent respect and kind treatment from the wider community is seen by Strangites as a powerful sign that James A. Strang's revelations were true. Furthermore, families living there have prospered, owning homes and achieving financial stability, which they believe is a testament to the blessings promised for obedience to God.The congregation has seen periods of challenge and renewal. A spiritual movement led others to move to Voree, and gradually the church began to build up again. While the primary congregation is in Burlington, members also reside in various states, including Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, Florida, Michigan, and Minnesota, often attending services via Zoom.Women in the Aaronic PriesthoodPerhaps one of the most surprising and progressive aspects of the Strangite Church is its stance on women and the priesthood. Unlike many other Restorationist faiths, the Strangite Church ordains women to the Aaronic priesthood, specifically to the office of teacher. They believe that Emma Smith herself was the first teacher.These women teachers play an active and vital role in church services. They are permitted to lead meetings, often doing so in pairs, each taking half of the Sabbath service. While women hold the office of teacher, they are not ordained as deaconesses; deacons are exclusively boys.Priesthood ordination in the Strangite Church is not tied to age or seen as a "rite of passage.” Instead, individuals are called when a priesthood member receives inspiration that a particular person is ready and begins to excel.The Strangite priesthood structure includes: Melchizedek Priesthood: Elders and High Priests. Aaronic Priesthood: Priests, Teachers (including women), and Deacons. There are no Seventies currently, and they believe a prophet is needed to structure other offices.The leadership of the church has continued through a series of appointments. Lorenzo Hickey ordained Wingfield Watson as the head of the church and a high priest, who then served until his passing around 1920. Following Watson, subsequent presiding high priests have been appointed by their predecessors. Currently, David Flanders serves as the presiding high priest, a role of duty and responsibility to manage affairs, but not one that grants him higher authority than other high priests.Saturday Worship and the Nature of ChristA distinct practice of the Strangite Church is their worship on Saturday, the Sabbath day. This is based on their belief that God sanctified the seventh day during creation. They contend that the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday to honor the sun god and appease pagans, aiming to unite Christians and pagans into a single universal church.Their theological views also extend to the nature of Christ. The Strangite Church believes that Jesus was 100% mortal, and that Joseph was his biological father. This belief is critical to their understanding of Christ's lineage, as Joseph was of the tribe of Judah, which connects Jesus directly to the covenant line of Abraham and King David through the ma...

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Gary Weber, a member of the Strangite Church, shared unique insights into their doctrines, including polygamy, baptism for the dead, and their distinctive interpretation of the "stick of Judah" prophecy.https://youtu.be/_e1Zm605gtE 0:00 Distinctive Stance on Polygamy The Strangite Church believes that polygamy is an eternal principle and can be acceptable to God if commanded by Him, primarily "to build up seed unto [His] name," not for lustful purposes. This aligns with the Book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, which states one should have only one wife "unless I command you otherwise.” Historical figures like Abraham are cited as examples of righteous men who practiced it when commanded. Regarding their founder, James Strang, initially, he was against polygamy. However, he later embraced it, reportedly through inspiration from God on Beaver Island, allowing it as part of the "Book of the Law of the Lord.” It's notable that its practice was limited, with perhaps only five families out of thousands practicing it due to financial constraints and the crucial requirement that the wife must not object. Currently, the Strangite Church does not practice polygamy. This is primarily because they believe in keeping the laws of the land, and polygamy is against the law. They hold that God would not put people in a position to break the law and go to jail. Gary Weber noted that Joseph Smith also said, "We believe in keeping the laws of the land.” Furthermore, they believe that only a prophet can "usher in a dispensation for polygamy.” Interestingly, Gary mentioned that Joseph Smith allegedly cut off a Mr. Brown from the church for practicing and teaching polygamy three months before his death, suggesting an inconsistency in Joseph Smith's own stated position if he himself practiced it. 5:17 Baptism for the Dead Another unique doctrine discussed is baptism for the dead, which the Strangites believe requires a prophet to "usher in a dispensation" and obtain "the keys from Elijah.” They assert that both Joseph Smith and James A. Strang received these keys and therefore practiced it. The "Book of the Law of the Lord" includes a section on the doctrine of baptism for the dead, which is described as identical to the information Joseph Smith put out in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. A significant difference between the Strangite practice and that of the Utah Mormons (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is that the Strangites believe that the sex of the person does not matter; a woman could be baptized for her deceased father if he hadn't been baptized. In contrast, the Utah church generally practices that women baptize for women and men for men. However, the Strangite Church does not currently practice baptism for the dead. The reason, similar to polygamy, is the absence of a living prophet on the earth. 8:39 Waiting for the Prophet of the "Stick of Judah" The Strangite Church has a distinct eschatological belief tied to a prophecy in Genesis 49, where Jacob blesses his 12 sons. When speaking of Judah, it states, "the lawgiver shall not depart between the feet of Judah.” They interpret this to mean that after Joseph Smith, who they consider the prophet of the "stick of Ephraim," there was to be a prophet from the tribe of Judah who would "bring forth the book of the law.” This next prophet is expected to remain in the house of Judah, from the tribe of King David, and will take the gospel to the house of Israel. The Strangite Church is currently waiting for this prophet to come forth, as they believe there was meant to be an "indirect period of time" after James Strang, before the "house of Israel's dispensation to the Jews" began. 13:29 James Strang's Life & Beaver Island Community James Strang lived in the Voree/Burlington area, Wisconsin, from about 1842 until approximately 1849 or 1850. He then moved his community to Beaver Island around 1850,

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It’s always fun to talk to someone from the Strangite Church, officially known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) Based in Burlington, Wisconsin, this branch of the Latter-day Saint movement offers a distinctive perspective on the succession of Joseph Smith and the ongoing divine restoration.https://youtu.be/RUL8rF0hb4UStrangite Genesis in VoreeThe current headquarters of the Strangite Church is Burlington, Wisconsin. Interestingly, the area holds historical significance with multiple names. It was originally called Foxville. While today it's known as Burlington, a specific area on the west side of town where the Mormon settlement was located was called Voree by the early Strangites, a name associated with the significant "Voree record". James J. Strang led his followers to this location, believing God had instructed them to move from Nauvoo.James Strang was dispatched to the Burlington area by Joseph Smith, having been baptized and made an elder by Smith himself. Strang wrote back to Joseph Smith, suggesting Voree would be a "wonderful place for a gathering" due to its rich resources like fish, fresh water, great farmland, and good soil near the Great Lakes. Initially, Joseph Smith was hesitant, but after discussion with Hyrum Smith and a subsequent spiritual revelation, he concluded that Voree was indeed a good place for the Saints.James J. Strang: Joseph Smith's Chosen Successor?The Strangite Church believes that James J. Strang was divinely appointed as Joseph Smith's successor. This belief is rooted in two pivotal events: The Letter of Appointment: Joseph Smith penned a letter to James A. Strang, officially appointing him as his successor. This original letter is now preserved at Yale University in the Beineke Library, with copies available for members. The Angelic Ordination: On the very day Joseph Smith was assassinated, June 27, 1844, angels appeared to James J. Strang and ordained him a prophet. These were believed to be the same angels who ordained Joseph Smith – Peter, James, and John. Strang was aware of Joseph's death through this angelic visitation even before news arrived from Nauvoo. Furthermore, it's believed that Jesus also anointed Strang as the King of Israel for the gentile dispensation, an ordination attributed to his lineage from the royal line of King David.Sacred Texts and Prophetic InterpretationsThe Strangite Church embraces a unique canon of scripture beyond what is common in other Latter-day Saint traditions: The Voree Plates: These ancient plates were revealed to James Strang through a vision from the angel Moroni, known as the Hill of Promise. Strang gathered leading citizens to witness their excavation from beneath a tree, about four feet down, where roots had grown around them. The plates, housed in an earthen case, crumbled upon exposure to air due to their age. Witnesses, including a newspaper reporter from Kenosha, confirmed the ancient nature of the record and that the site had been undisturbed. Strang translated them using the Urim and Thummim given to him by the angel Moroni, much like Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon. The Voree Plates provide a brief history of a people who were "no more" and, most notably, contained a pictorial drawing depicting the true structure of the priesthood, including the prophet lawgiver, two viceroys, twelve apostles, high priests, and seventies. These plates were translated around 1844. The Book of the Law: This significant text is believed to be the "stick of Judah" spoken of in Ezekiel 37. According to Strangite belief, Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon (the stick of Ephraim), but was instructed not to touch the sealed record, which was the Book of the Law, meant for a future prophet. James J. Strang, being of the tribe of Judah with Jewish ancestry, translated the Book of the Law after receiving the plates of Laban from the angel Moroni.

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This is a re-broadcast of my 2023 interview with Lynne Whitesides. She passed away from pneumonia/leukemia on July 7, 2025. We miss her.Lynne Whitesides was the first person punished in the September Six. She shares her story of why she wasn't excommunicated, who was involved, and where she is on her spiritual journey. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/thV_CGqy3jYCopyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.First to Get PunishedInterviewGT 00:34 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm so excited to have one of the original members of the September Six. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where we are?Lynne 00:45 I am Lynne Whitesides, and I was the first of the September Six.GT 00:49 Okay.Lynne 00:50 We are at the Utah Valley University in Provo.GT 00:56 Right, Orem, actually.Lynne 00:57 Are we in Provo? We're in Orem.GT 01:00 Well, very good. I've been doing this podcast for eight years now. And this is our first time talking. You're hard to track down.Lynne 01:11 I don't know. I'm glad to be here.GT 01:14 Well, thanks. Well, as we look back on this, can you talk about the events? I don't know how far back it goes. Does it go back to the 80s? Or was it just really concentrated in the early 90s, that led you into trouble with Church authorities?Lynne 01:30 Well, I can go back a little farther, even in my own [story.] But I don't know that we want to go there. I'll start with from when I moved from Chicago to Salt Lake City. And when I did that, my friend, Lorie Stromberg; do you know Lorie?GT 01:48 A little bit. We're Facebook friends.Lynne 01:50 Lorie said, "Why don't you volunteer for Sunstone?" And I had three little kids and my husband was doing his residency and he had gotten his residency here in Salt Lake. And I so I went down, and I volunteered to just be one of the people who helps at Sunstone. And at the end of that symposium, so that was '84, or something like that.GT 02:12 Okay.Lynne 02:13 Then, I think Marti Bradley had a talk with Elbert Peck and said, "We think Lynne should be the new chair of the symposium." So, they invited me to be the chair of the symposium for the next year, which I did. I mean, I did it for four years. So whatever the four years were.GT 02:30 So, you were the leader of Sunstone?Lynne 02:31 I was the chair of the symposium. Elbert was the editor and Daniel Rector was the publisher. And then there are [others.] At the time, her name was Marti Esplin and now her name is Marti Ashby now. She was an editor. There was a really cool crew that worked there, Connie Disney.GT 02:49 So, this is after Peggy Fletcher's Stack.Lynne 02:51 Yes, just right after when Elbert took over. And it was so much fun working with Elbert and Daniel. Because I had no idea how to pull a Symposium together. But Elbert, in particular, was so gracious and helpful and just kind of showed me the ropes. And by the time I was done [with] four years, I could run a symposium, so it was great.GT 03:16 Well, it sounds like Sunstone and correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like it used to be a magazine. And it seems like Peggy was trying to get people to write for the magazine. And she started the symposium and now the symposium is the whole thing.Lynne 03:31 Yeah.GT 03:31 There's not that many people that read the magazine anymore.Lynne 03:33 I don't even know. I don't follow the magazine anymore at all. I haven't been to the symposium for years, since 10 years after, and then this year. Because I have been invited to speak. But, those four years were really kind of heady because Peggy, that's what she was trying to do. And we were getting a lot of professors from BYU and the University of Utah, but also just all kinds of really interesting people.

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Join us on a fascinating journey to Voree/Burlington, Wisconsin, to explore the unique history and beliefs of a Latter-day Saint group often referred to as the Strangites. This isn't the commonly known LDS Church; rather, it's a distinct branch founded by James Strang. He started a rival Mormon Church in Voree/Burlington, Wisconsin back in 1844 and the church still exists! We'll tour around the Trust Farm and see historic sites, including the Hill of Promise & the home where James Strang died. Gary Weber is a Strangite. He's our tour guide and we'll discuss their church and theology. You don't want to miss this conversation...https://youtu.be/uMh31ZwIZikCopyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Genesis of StrangismThe Strangite Church, formally known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Strangite), was founded in 1844. James Strang, who had been sent on a mission to Wisconsin by Joseph Smith, claimed that an angel ordained him on June 27, 1844, the very day Joseph Smith died. This divine ordination, he asserted, made him the rightful successor to the church's leadership.Trip to Voree/BurlingtonThe journey to this lesser-known Latter-day Saint community in Wisconsin involved a mix of trains, planes, and automobiles. Landing in Milwaukee, the trip continued towards Burlington, Wisconsin, where the Church is located. The group believes they are the original Mormon Church and refer to themselves as Mormons. The area around Burlington, known as Voree is the setting for much of Strangite history, especially concerning the "Voree record". The weather in Burlington on June 12th was surprisingly mild for summer, with a high of just 63 and low around 56 degrees Fahrenheit, a notable difference from Utah's typical June temperatures.Current Church Building and SurroundingsThe current Strangite church building, located on Spring Valley Road near what's called "Mormon Road," is smaller than I expected. According to Bill Shepard, a long-time resident & member, this building was constructed around 1965-1967 and marks the first time the Strangites have had a dedicated church building, as they were previously scattered. The lawn around the chapel is nicely manicured, and visitors are always welcome.Inside, or in their collections, the Strangites possess a wealth of historical documents, including 26 volumes of the Journal of Discourses, Times and Seasons, and Millennial Star. They also have Strang Manuscripts, which are copies of letters, and a publication called The Northern Islander, which was published at Beaver Island. Notably, the Strangites do use the Doctrine and Covenants.Sacred Hill of PromiseOne of the most significant sites for Strangites is the Hill of Promise. This is where James Strang is believed to have found his "Voree plates. The discovery was found under a small tree on the hill, under which Strang claimed a buried record lay. He gathered respected men from the town to witness the excavation, ensuring no prior disturbance of the soil. An angel reportedly appeared to Strang, revealing the record's location.Upon opening the stone casing, the ancient record crumbled due to exposure to air, a common occurrence with ancient artifacts according to Weber. Strang translated this record using the Urim and Thummim, which he said he received from the angel Moroni. The "Voree record" was a short account of a people named "Raja Ramor" who lived in the area and, similar to the Nephites on the Hill Cumorah, were largely destroyed in a great war. The record also depicted the priesthood structure, aligning precisely with the priesthood under Joseph Smith and James Strang, including prophet, viceroy, twelve apostles, and seventies.Beyond its historical significance, the Hill of Promise holds prophetic importance: James Strang's revelations indicate that Daniel from the Bible will someday app...

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I've visited some temples recently! "Gospel Tangents" recently hosted a surprise live session, a "late night unannounced edition," much to the delight of its "night owl" viewers. I shared a whirlwind of Temples, Travels, updates, upcoming content, and even some breaking news from various Restorationist traditions.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw_a2PA5jAUTemples, Travels, & Timely Insights!I've been traveling extensively, leading to a "boatload of pictures" and a significant backlog of videos waiting to be edited. Despite the busy schedule, i'm eager to share my experiences: Community of Christ World Conference in Independence: Rick attended and captured his reactions to Stassi Cramm being ordained the new prophet. While there, he met a man from New Zealand (a "Kiwi") and expressed hope for interviews with people from the Temple Lot Church, including Tom from a fundamentalist group and potentially Stassi Cramm herself. Mormon History Association (MHA): This event also proved fruitful, including tours of LDS churches, such as an old one in Ogden and Joseph Soderberg's church where President Hinckley reportedly gained his testimony. Exploring the Strangites in Wisconsin: This trip was a major highlight. I stayed with Bill Shepard, a former guest, and toured various Strangite sites with Gary Weber and David Boice.◦ A key stop was the Hill of Promise, which the Strangites consider akin to the Hill Cumorah. It's believed to be where James J. Strang found the Voree record, a "short record of the people of Raja Ramor." This record described a people similar to those in the Book of Mormon, with a priesthood structure mirroring Joseph and James's. The Hill of Promise also holds future significance, as Strangite revelations state that Daniel from the Bible will appear there to announce Christ's approaching second coming.◦ I also visited the site of the unbuilt Strangite temple in Burlington, which was planned to be "quite significant" in size.◦ Rick also drove by James Strang's house in Burlington, where Strang died three weeks after his assassination on the dock of Lake Michiga.◦ A fascinating piece of news is that David Boice is moving to Utah at the end of July. Rick plans to visit Beaver Island (Strangite Island) in July or August, noting that while Gary Weber says there's "not a lot to see," one can rent a golf cart for getting around. He also mentioned Vicki Speek is working on a census of the island.◦ For those unfamiliar, James J. Strang claimed an angelic ordination on the day Joseph Smith died (June 27, 1844). He translated the Voree plates and later the "plates of Laban" (published as the Book of the Law of the Lord). He settled in Burlington, then moved to Beaver Island, where he was crowned king and even served in the Michigan legislature. His efforts to stop Gentiles from selling liquor to Native Americans reportedly led to his assassination with the help of the U.S. Navy. Upcoming Trip to Calgary and Cardston, Alberta: Rick is flying to Calgary for his son's wedding. He plans to make a video about the Cardston Alberta Temple, which was the first international temple for the LDS Church. Some compare it to the Mesa Temple and notes its "pioneer feel" like the Manti Temple. The Cardston Temple's murals are darker, possibly due to varnish, and hopes for a refurbishment once a new temple opens in Lethbridge.Book Giveaways and Exciting New ReleasesThe live session included a book giveaway for "Joseph Fielding Smith a Mormon Theologian," won by Mark Francis. Looking ahead, the channel is celebrating the release of John Turner's new book, "Joseph Smith The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet," which launched in June on Amazon. (The contest is over now.) Rick gave away an autographed copy of this book.Potentially "Breaking News" from the Temple Lot ChurchI discovered some surprising news regarding the Temple Lot Church: they are "going to quit selling the Book of Commandme...

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Matt Harris told me that only 30% of his research went into his book "2nd Class Saints" due to space restrictions. What was left out? We'll find out and also get a preview of his upcoming biography of Hugh B Brown. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/fQBhV5kMdZ4Don't miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. What Was Left Out?GT 00:30 I think I've only asked you 1/20 of what I wanted to ask. I need to let you go, but the last question that I want to hit you on, I remember we had a conversation one time, and you said that when you write a book, you only put in about 30% of your research. Usually it's because of page limitations and that sort of a thing. Can you share a story or two of the 70% that's not in this book?Matt 01:07 Yeah.GT 01:09 I mean, I guess the Brown stuff, that's for your new book. But what are some things that due to space restrictions you just couldn't get in?Matt 01:21 Well, just a quick thought, the Brown stuff is in there, his activism and speaking to the press and getting Monroe Fleming ordained or trying to get him ordained, that's all in there in great detail. But the later stuff in the 1970s...GT 01:34 Daddy, the recording, I don't think that was in there.Matt 01:38 No, no, no. That will be in my Brown biography. And in full disclosure, I found some of this stuff after, later.GT 01:53 A book is never finished. Right?Matt 01:58 Oh, my goodness. Well, there are other details that I'll include about Brown and the ban, in particular, because it's so pivotal to his story, as is polygamy, weirdly enough. And also, the other story I'll just start with a teaser, is that Brown was told that he would be an apostle at the age of 15, if he lived righteous enough. He wasn't called in the Quorum of the Twelve until he was 78 years of age.GT 02:19 Wow.Matt 02:20 That is a problem, especially if you've been told...GT 02:24. We could have gotten rid of the ban sooner. Right? If he was only 20...Matt 02:29. The teaser I'll give you is it wasn't the ban that kept him out. It was something else. He was accused of doing something he did not do.GT 02:36 Did Newell Bringhurst share that story, or maybe you did. Was it with alcohol?Matt 02:43 Newell wouldn't have known this. Well, Newell knows it only for me. This is all new stuff that nobody knows about. And I've shared it with a few people.GT 02:47 Was it with the alcohol commission or something?Matt 02:52 Yeah. Some other time, I'll tell you more about the details of that. It's a fascinating thing. He was accused of taking bribes that he didn't take. But perception can be reality.GT 03:02. It doesn't matter when it's politics.Matt 03:04 That's right.GT 03:04. Accusation is good enough.Matt 03:05 That's right, and especially when people's income is at stake. So there's a lot of things I didn't talk about in this book. I couldn't because of space constraints, but some of it was--I'll give you a couple of examples. One deals with the activism. I talk a lot about the Church Education System and the BYU religion faculty and CES/Institute people, those who teach the young men and women of the Church, college age. I was shocked at the level of pushback from people who are paid to teach religion to the college-aged kids, how much they opposed the ban.GT 03:51 Oh wow.Matt 03:52 And you definitely get that in this book. You see it. I mean, I name some names, just the more high profile people like Lowell Bennion. But because of the length of the book, and they wanted to keep the price down, the press and all of that, I had to cut out a lot of details on that.GT 04:10. Can we get a sequel?Matt 04:14. And so I name names.

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We're discussing polygamy in John Turner's Joseph Smith Biography and giving away a book!https://youtube.com/live/09QmyE6WweUDon’t miss our other conversations with John: https://gospeltangents.com/people/john-turner/Copyright © 2025Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission Welcome, everyone, to Gospel Tangents Live! Sunday, we were live, giving away a copy of John Turner's acclaimed biography, "The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet." I just wrapped up an amazing interview with Turner. He is a super fun guy. It was certainly an engaging discussion, even touching on unexpected controversies like the gold plates.I’ll have a specific focus on the often-debated topic of polygamy. I’ll be tackling this subject for an upcoming presentation at Sunstone (University of Utah, Aug 1st) and the John Whitmer Historical Association (Independence, September 20th).Let's break down some of the key points discussed, looking at both the "problematic" and "overwhelming" evidence surrounding Joseph Smith's polygamy.Problematic Polygamy: Unflattering Episodes and Skeptical PointsThere are several challenging aspects of Joseph Smith's polygamy, as presented in Turner's book: Questioned Revelations: Turner raises questions about the 1831 revelations regarding polygamy to Native Americans. This is partly based on the reaction of Ezra Booth, an early church critic, who, according to Turner, would have made a "bigger deal about polygamy" if such a revelation had been widely known and accepted at the time. Obscurity of Activities: Joseph Smith took "great pains to obscure his polygamy activities," which Turner notes makes it difficult to ascertain the full scope and nature of these practices. Polygamy skeptics often don't acknowledge this challenge. Limited Sexual Relations: Turner believes that sexual relations with plural spouses were limited. I’m working on a probability model to explore how often Joseph and another wife besides Emma should have gotten pregnant. Joseph and Emma had nine children (eight pregnancies), proving Joseph's fertility. Skeptics often jump to extremes, either no sex or sex "every night," with "never a happy medium". Denouncing Adultery: Joseph Smith publicly denounced adulteryon pages 276-277 of Turner's book, a point skeptics often over emphasize. The Nancy Rigdon Incident: This incident, leading to the infamous "Happiness Letter," is discussed on pages 277, 286, and 287. Nancy Rigdon rejected Joseph's marriage proposal in April 1842. John C. Bennett later published the "Happiness Letter". Turner considers Sidney Rigdon's denial that Joseph wrotethe letter (as opposed to denying the allegationsthat Joseph propositioned Nancy) a "weak response," especially since Joseph typically used scribes to write almost everything. The Sarah Pratt and John C. Bennett Incident: Also on pages 286-287, this involves Sarah Pratt (married to Orson Hyde) and John C. Bennett. When Orson Hyde discovered a potential relationship between Sarah and Joseph, he wrote a suicide note. In a subsequent meeting, Orson Pratt (Sarah's husband) reportedly opposed Joseph Smith in a subsequent meeting due to the issue with Sarah Pratt, a well-documented story according to Turner and most historians. Brigham Young's Polygamy Rejection: Brigham Young's plural marriage proposal to Martha Brotherton was rejected, as noted on page 289. This isn’t a flattering portrayal of polygamy. These "problematic" cases often involve both pro-polygamy (like Brigham Young) and anti-polygamy (like John C. Bennett or Sarah Pratt) sources. Their agreement on key events "is pretty strong evidence that something happened".Overwhelming Evidence: "Prodigious" Polygamy PointsDespite the problematic aspects, John Turner consider "overwhelming evidence" for Joseph Smith's involvement in polygamy: Early Sealings:

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Rob Lauer left the LDS Church not once, but twice! He tells why he came back in between and why he finally decided to leave Mormons & become a Reform Mormon. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/j5YLcn_75k8

Don’t miss our other conversations with Rob! https://gospeltangents.com/people/rob-lauer/

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Rob Lauer is a Reform Mormon. Before that, however, he was converted to the LDS Church by none other than Fawn Brodie & the Tanners! He knew more about the Church as a teenager than most missionaries! Check out more in our conversation…

https://youtu.be/0I7fi-M7DP0

0:00 Intro to Reform Mormonism4:07 Methodist Schism6:11 Converted to LDS By Brodie & Tanners!21:11 BYU Culture Shock25:46 BYU DiggerDon’t miss our other conversations with Rob! https://gospeltangents.com/people/rob-lauer/

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What are the connections between freemasonry & the LDS Temple endowment? Cheryl Bruno discusses the latest findings in her book “Method Infinite.” Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/hq9qe90sirA

Don’t miss our other conversations with Chery! https://gospeltangents.com/people/cheryl-bruno/

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0:00 Is Freemasonry Tied to Polygamy? (Method Infinite)4:48 Did Joseph Rip off Freemasonry?15:26 Did Joseph Restore Something that Never Existed?18:20 Danites in Kirtland?20:45 Masonic Elements in Kirtland22:15 Too Much Masonry in Cheryl’s Book?23:54 Were Masons Mad That Joseph Let Women be Masons?30:54 Masonic Involvement in Joseph’s Murder35:01 Gallatin Election BattleCopyright © 2024

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Cheryl Bruno is making both mainstream Mormon historian & polygamy skeptics upset. On the one hand, she says polygamy skeptics are making good points about original documents questioning the traditional narrative about Joseph Smith’s polygamy. On the other hand, she upsets skeptics because she believes Joseph practiced polygamy. Should we be more careful about claims Joseph practiced polygamy? Check out our conversation…

Don’t miss our other conversations with Chery! https://gospeltangents.com/people/cheryl-bruno/

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0:00 Giving Polygamy Deniers Credibility?05:48 Why Cheryl is Convinced of Joseph’s Polygamy10:21 Reliability of Clayton Journals16:22 William Marks Accounts of Polygamy18:27 Cowdery Excommunication21:54 Religious vs Historical Arguments24:54 Is it ok to throw out late evidence?28:02 Why Temple Lot Case CAN be trustedCopyright © 2024

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What’s the reason Emma denied polygamy just before her death? Was Emma Smith bound to secrecy? Was it a trauma response? Cheryl Bruno answers that in our next conversation…

https://youtu.be/2PtSqgzcaOo

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0:00 Intro to Book Editing7:57 Emma’s Polygamy Denials9:37 Did Emma Agree to Partridge Sisters Polygamy22:01 Why Emma Denied Polygamy29:37 Emma’s Other Denials36:24 Strongest Case for Emma’s DenialsCopyright © 2024

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Did Joseph Smith Renounce Polygamy? William Marks said “Yes” on multiple occasions! We’ll find out more details from John Dinger & Cheryl Bruno, co-authors of the William Marks biography. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/-f6RAkcIUPM

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Emma wanted William Marks to be the next prophet. What happened when Brigham Young & Sidney Rigdon had other plans? William Marks was so trusted by the Smith family that he helped prepare Joseph’s body for burial. Cheryl Bruno & John Dinger, the biographers of William Marks answer. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/qC6f-U12Qys

0:00 Reactions to Polygamy19:16 Martyrdom of Joseph21:01 Defending Sidney Rigdontranscript to follow

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Did you know Emma Smith wanted William Marks to lead the Church following Joseph’s death? His is an “almost prophet.” Why has this important man been forgotten in both LDS & RLDS Churches? John Dinger & Cheryl Bruno are biographers of William Marks. Their book is titled, “Come Up Hither to Zion.” Check out more in our conversation…

https://youtu.be/ZgLLkdmnFsg

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In this GT Live, we’ll announce the contest winner and have a chat with Dr Amanda Hendrix-Komoto! Check it out!

https://youtube.com/live/c392p-_0La8

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Jim Lucas & Jonathan Neville explain why they think David Whitmer’s description of the translation process of Book of Mormon isn’t reliable. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/TYPzopAsWyM

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The Comstock Act of the 1800s is still affecting us today, especially Utah & Idaho abortion laws. Dr Amanda Hendrix-Komoto from Montana State University discusses current abortion fights in Utah and Idaho and how history influences us today. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/YBMowwjTbJ8

Don’t miss our other conversations with Amanda: https://gospeltangents.com/people/amanda-hendrix-komoto/

Comstock Act TodayIdaho’s Abortion FightUtah’s Abortion FightWidespread Agreement on AbortionTragic Late-Term Abortion StoryWhy Amanda Writes about Hard ThingsLast ThoughtsIna Coolbrith & Minerva TeichertCopyright © 2024

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We’re diving into the contentious issues of birth control & abortion. Should abortion be prevented at all costs, or do Americans support it in the life & health of the mother? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/9ZjjwNozUuo

Don’t miss our other conversations with Amanda: https://gospeltangents.com/people/amanda-hendrix-komoto/

Abortion & Reproductive RightsTrek & Menses19th Century Methods to Determine PregnancyMenses/Abortion in 19th CenturyLucy Stanton McCary’s Abortion KillingsComstock LawHomemade Birth ControlJohn C BennettCopyright © 2024

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“Imperial Zions” discusses how Mormon in Utah interacted with Native Americans there. There are good stories, and there are bad stories, just like the rest of America. We’ll dive in deeper with Dr Komoto. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/4yMZUNmdE8g

Don’t miss our other conversations with Amanda: https://gospeltangents.com/people/amanda-hendrix-komoto/

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We’ve talked about faith crisis and schism within the LDS Church, but we haven’t discussed Polynesian racism. Dr Amanda Hendrix-Komoto is a Methodist, and discusses those topics in the Methodist Community as well. We’ll also dive into the story of a Utah ghost town built for Polynesians an hour west of Salt Lake City. Plus Amanda will tell the story of the prophet Joseph F Smith killing a cat in Hawaii. Why did he do it? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/hUn7pcHhhoM

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We’re diving into the history of RLDS & LDS in Tahiti. I was surprised to learn that the Community of Christ has a large number of members in Tahiti. Why is this? Well it turns out the LDS missionaries were run off the island over polygamy, and the anti-polygamy RLDS were welcomed back with open arms! Find out more in our next conversation with Amanda…

https://youtu.be/j-cXVeW3EiM

Don’t miss our other conversations with Amanda: https://gospeltangents.com/people/amanda-hendrix-komoto/

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Here is a more than a top 10 list of things I didn’t have time to ask Dr Matt Harris about and his amazing book, “2nd Class Saints.” I’ll also announce the contest winner! Check out our conversation…

https://youtube.com/live/ehbp13IT_sQ

Don’t miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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Matt Harris told me that only 30% of his research went into his book “2nd Class Saints” due to space restrictions. What was left out? We’ll find out and also get a preview of his upcoming biography of Hugh B Brown. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/P1O2cPTJdZw

Don’t miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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Hugh B Brown risked literally everything to try to overturn the priesthood/temple ban in the LDS Church. For that he was dismissed from First Presidency. Dr Matt Harris discusses Brown’s attempts to end the ban just before Pres McKay’s death, which led to him being dropped from the First Presidency. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/G9C2No5bfVY

Don’t miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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Can you imagine being inside the room for 1978 revelation? The journals of Marion D Hanks take us there when the 1978 revelation was announced to the Quorum of 70.

We will also discuss the 1969 statement by the Apostles and most of the First Presidency affirming the ban. Dr Matt Harris takes us behind the scenes to discuss the statement affirms a ban from temple & priesthood for black members and claiming the reasons were known only to God. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/MY9DQdG-lA4

Don’t miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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Are there things Lester Bush missed? Lester Bush wrote a groundbreaking 1873 article blaming Brigham Young, rather than Joseph Smith, for instituting the priesthood & temple ban. I asked Matt Harris if there was a weakness in the article that didn’t address the racial theology behind the ban. He said there was, and found some interesting information in the Adam Bennion minutes that Lester didn’t know about. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/Rt9yJfxHzoc

Don’t miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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Is “white and delightsome” a racist scripture? Dr Matt Harris discusses the evolution of the priesthood/temple ban in the 19th century. He discusses black men who held the priesthood, and why Brigham Young removed their possibility of attending the temple. We’ll also discuss the controversial passages “white & delightsome” vs “pure & delightsome” in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation with Matt Harris…

https://youtu.be/OK5AeAAvrIY

Don’t miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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Dr Matt Harris from Colorado State University-Pueblo has an amazing book called 2nd Class Saints. It’s about the race ban from World War 2 to the present. It’s a best seller and sold out in about a month! I think it will win book of the year! We’ll discuss his cutting-edge scholarship, how he got access to some amazing diaries and meeting minutes, and the amazing discoveries that help describe the removal of the race ban in June 1978. We’ll dive in deep! Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/mk3_jVGW95U

Don’t miss our other conversations with Matt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/matt-harris/

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Have you ever wanted to visit Historic Kirtland? Come along with Rick Bennett as he visited some of the amazing sites in June 2024. Check it out!

https://youtu.be/6ZUDiRFzP0o

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In our latest GT Live, we’ll announce the contest winner for Cheryl Bruno’s book, “Secret Covenants.” I’ll also show you some pictures from my recent trip to Ireland. They had some cool churches there along with the Taylor Swift concert! We’ll also discuss my reactions to Cheryl’s book, “Secret Covenants.” I’ll share my reactions from the Clair Barrus & Mary Ann Clements interviews & chapters on polygamy, and preview Cheryl and John Dinger’s biography on William Marks, an early Church leader. Plus more! Check out our conversation…

https://youtube.com/live/V9Kj6ZEyn2U

Don’t miss our other GT Live meetings!

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What do Land Deeds in Nauvoo have to do with D&C 132? It turns out there is a controversy where an argument is made for and against 132 being legit vs forgery. Mary Ann Clements weighs in on the controversy. Check out our conversation, by signing up to our free newsletter! https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter

https://youtu.be/j0h-dwq6roQ

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Ann: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mary-ann-clements/

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Mary Clift was the 3rd sister to become a wife of Theodore Turley. Mary Ann Clements explains the unusual marraige. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/x2tecLiEY08

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Ann: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mary-ann-clements/

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Why did 3 Clift sisters marry Theodore Turley? Mary Ann Clements tells us more! Eliza never lived with Theodore. Was it a sham marriage, or just to fulfill spiritual polygamy? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/ngP_Gb4W-vg

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Ann: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mary-ann-clements/

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Was Sarah Clift in an affair or a surrogate motherhood arrangement in England in the 1830s? Mary Ann Clements is an amazing historian. She’s written a chapter in “Secret Covenants,” edited by Cheryl Bruno. We’ll dive into the story of Theodore Turley and the 3 sisters he married. We’ll find out more. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/zXDoK31TFSg

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Ann: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mary-ann-clements/

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Cheryl Bruno is the editor of “Secret Covenants: New Insights into Early Mormon Polygamy.” She has come up with some surprises to the polygamy narrative we’ve all been taught. Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/-C8dTYD0I7o

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cheryl: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cheryl-bruno/

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Dr Val Larsen concludes this conversation with a discussion of theosis in the Book of Mormon. We’ll also discuss his upcoming projects. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/2JKPnqMIDlc

Don’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/

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In our final conversation with Dr Margaret Toscano, we’ll discuss the chapter in Sara Patterson’s book, The Sept 6 & the Struggle for the Soul of Mormonism.” Margaret will discuss her and her husband Paul’s reaction to Sara’s descriptions of them in the book Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/M2F84YbczPg

Don’t miss our other conversations about the Sept Six: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/sept-six/

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Does Excommunication work? It seems to have shut down both the Ordain Women movement and the Feminist Movement in 1993. What can people learn from these episodes to effect change in the LDS Church? Dr Margaret Toscano discusses lessons learned. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/8PydVPNg9jI

Don’t miss our other conversations about the Sept Six: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/sept-six/

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Let’s Talk about the Sept 6. We’ll turn back the clock to 1993 and discuss the events that led up to the excommunication of 6 intellectuals in the LDS Church. Dr Margaret Toscano takes us through the important events of the Sept 6. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/qvjTdAs5uhU

Don’t miss our other conversations about the Sept Six: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/sept-six/

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Dr Margaret Toscano gives a review of “The Sept 6 & the Struggle for the Soul of Mormonism by Dr Sara Patterson. We’ll learn what Margaret likes and doesn’t like about the book. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/_ZgwEjJuzB8

Don’t miss our other conversations about the Sept Six: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/sept-six/

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We’ll recap the MHA 2024 Conference with the best historians on the planet from Kirtland, Ohio!

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It was a super fun week. I’ll share the fun times at the NT Wright Conference and Mormon History Assoc in Kirtland. NT Wright is one of the most renown New Testament Scholars. He is a British former Anglican Bishop.

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In our final conversation with Dan and Ann Hatch of Christ’s Church, we’ll get into whether they accept black Church members. Do they ordain blacks? (Many fundamentalists reject the 1978 revelation on priesthood from Spencer W Kimball in the mainstream LDS Church.) We’ll also discuss why outsiders can’t attend priesthood meetings, solemn assemblies, and other topics. To Check out our conversation, sign up at gospeltangents.com/newsletter and I’ll send you a secret link to the final part of our conversation!

https://youtu.be/HL9KXUMNWq8

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Christ’s Church claims to go back to the 1877 long endowment session that took hours to complete? Why are they so long? Do they do the Oath of Vengeance? Blood Atonement? We’ll dive in deep! Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/7Y7CIugiAAw

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ann & Dan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ann-hatch/

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In the early days of the LDS Church, people often were baptized multiple times, but the repeat baptisms practice was phased out. Christ’s Church is a fundamentalist Mormon group and they still practice repeat baptisms, including baptism for health. Dan & Ann Hatch are the pres and matron of the Nevada Temple, and will explain more about this practice. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/NhrcSyjK6jg

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ann & Dan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ann-hatch/

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When Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto banning polygamy in the LDS Church, supporters of polygamy called him a traitor. Is that how Christ’s Church feels? Dan & Ann Hatch are the pres and matron of the Nevada Temple and share their opinions about Woodruff. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/Eu_TuzaKI3A

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ann & Dan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ann-hatch/

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Who founded Christ’s Church (a polygamist group)? Ann & Dan Hatch are the matron and temple pres of Christ’s Church and detail how the church was founded by Gerald Peterson, Sr in 1978. We’ll discuss his priesthood claims and how they view other groups’ priesthood, including the LDS Church. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/MSeGDUXEb3U

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ann & Dan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ann-hatch/

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This is the first podcast inside a polygamist temple! Dan & Ann Hatch are the temple president & matron of the Nevada Temple for Christ’s Church. We’re meeting in their baptistry and will learn more about their temple ceremonies. We’ll also discuss their conversion from the LDS Church to Christ’s Church. Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/a30ueYi77cY

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ann & Dan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ann-hatch/

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Here is our 2nd Gospel Tangents Road Trip! We’re visiting 2 temples and even get to go inside temple with our camera! Dan & Ann Hatch are the temple president & matron of the Nevada Temple for Christ’s Church. We’ll also drive near Modena, Utah to visit the pyrmaid shaped temple with Quorum of 12 President David Patrick and John Peterson, uncle to the current prophet Michael Peterson of Christ’s Church. Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/ZY7_sU61dck

Don’t miss our other trips: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/

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Have the Sept Six & other intellectuals nfluenced LDS Church leaders with their arguments? Dr Sara Patterson weighs in on that question. If you’re not on our newsletter, sign up for free and I’ll send you a secret link to listen to the conclusion at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter

https://youtu.be/9NKgZfLUtgI

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0:00 Have Intellectuals Moved Church Leaders?Dr. Sarah Patterson discusses how her book on September 6 has influenced Mormon church leadership.

1:03 Sensitive TopicsOpenness to discussions of polygamy, magic, and seer stones has increased among church leaders, with some ideas becoming more mainstream.
Church leaders emphasize boundaries on historical topics, while discussing Heavenly Mother and women in priesthood.

5:12 Purity culture and its relation to excommunications in the LDS ChurchSara challenges the firm brackets around the September 6 event, arguing for a broader understanding of the purity system in the LDS church.
Church leaders implemented purity system to unify diverse members through excommunications.

9:09 Faith, theology, and intellectual freedom.Institutions should prioritize safety and allow for open questions and discussions to foster fulfilling faithful lives.
Dissident group within church argues for inclusive, egalitarian community focused on personal relationship with spirit.

15:03 Advice for LeadersDr. Sarah Patterson discusses her book “September 6: The Struggle for the Soul of Mormonism” and provides insights on the tension between individual conscience and institutional authority within the Mormon Church.
Patterson emphasizes the importance of seeking truth and individual relationships with the Spirit, rather than blindly following institutional rules and expectations.

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Have you every wanted to go on a road trip with Rick B? Now’s your chance! This is the first in a series of Tangent Trips we’ll go on: Gilgal Gardens. The idea is to visit various Mormon history sites, both obscure & famous, and take you along for the ride!

In this first Tangent Trip, we’ll visit Gilgal Garden, home of the Joseph Smith Sphinx! Why a sphinx? Why not! I’ll let my friend Clair Barrus tell you more!

Don’t miss our other trips: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

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In our final conversation we’ll talk about some other Fundamentalist Mormon groups and how the race ban & Word of Wisdom are viewed. To hear the final part of our conversation, sign up to our free newsletter at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter and I’ll send you a secret link for free.

https://youtu.be/W3Gdqso7ZAk

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

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Fundamentalist Mormon Theology has some interesting differences with the LDS Church. Dr Cristina Rosetti says Heavenly Mothers are named, as is the Holy Ghost. We’ll also talk about a specialized form of reincarnation and the economic order of heaven. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/HObl0iSTUqw

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1944 & 1953 saw Police Raids on polygamists. These were traumatic reminders that they couldn’t trust authorities. Dr Cristina Rosetti details more on these police raids and why fundamentalist Mormon communities became wary of outsiders. We’ll talk with Dr Cristina Rosetti about the schisms that happened following these raids. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/OoTaWOQja2I

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

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Joseph Musser has documented Mormon fundamentalism better than nearly any other person. Dr Cristina Rosetti will discuss his post-Manifesto polygamy and his theological innovations. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/huUeh2wCzmc

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

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We’re talking Mormon fundamentalism! Joseph Musser was the first fundamentalist Mormon who wrote down the unique theology (besides polygamy) that they believe. Dr. Cristina Rosetti has written a biography of this man and explains the founding members of the earliest fundamentalist communities. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/CC_AYvuZm94

Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti/

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Since its founding, the LDS Church has used the King James Version of the Bible. Is it time to dump KJV? Many people find the old English tough to read & understand. Is it time to upgrade to a more modern version? Will that cause ripple effects with the Book of Mormon? Dr Joseph Spencer weighs in on the issue. We’ll also discuss his other books and upcoming projects. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/a42mzBmr1cQ

Don’t miss our other conversations with Joseph: https://gospeltangents.com/people/joseph-spencer/

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Are there contradictions between Nephi & Abinadi? Dr Joseph Spencer says Yes! He also makes the case that when Jesus quotes Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, it is really different than Abinadi, who is really different than Nephi. We’ll also discuss why Joe isn’t interested in the multiple Isaiah problem in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/OJMIijxSXYQ

Don’t miss our other conversations with Joseph: https://gospeltangents.com/people/joseph-spencer/

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Is Abinadi trinitarian? Joseph Spencer is one of the leading experts on the Book of Mormon. He’ll tackle that question. He’s also the incoming president of Book of Mormon Studies Association, and he’s written a new book, “A Word in Season,” which discusses the Book of Mormon’s treatment of Isaiah. As LDS, we are told to study the words of Isaiah, so we’ll dive in and talk about how Abinadi, Christ, and Nephi approach Isaiah. It’s not the same! We’ll also discuss trinity in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/YOh3gyLinK8

Don’t miss our other conversations with Joseph: https://gospeltangents.com/people/joseph-spencer/

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For this GT Live! show, we’ll announce contest winners for Kurt Francom’s book, the Manti Temple, and my visit to polygamist communities on the Utah-Arizona border.

https://youtube.com/live/DRurZvvPLgE

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In our conclusion, we’re talking about the Gospel of the Brother of Jared, and why Rosalynde prefers reading to podcasts! Check out our conversation. Sign up for our free newsletter at gospeltangents.com/newsletter to hear the conclusion….

https://youtu.be/gBD-U5qLqhA

Don’t miss our other conversations with Rosalynde: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ih_Fh585xk&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ7ftt9c-Ndta9jcDH0NOQyr

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It’s always fun to put Kurt Francom on the hot seat. What does he think about girls passing the sacrament like boys? Is Christian Nationalism a problem in the LDS Church? Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at https://gospeltangents.com/newletter

https://youtu.be/UpiJBY4Gdiw

Don’t miss our other conversations with Kurt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/kurt-francom/

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Some people trust in God, but God either leaves them hanging, or answers in a way they don’t understand. Are some disappointed in God? Others are quite lax in their religious devotion. Should God be Disappointed in some? Kurt Francom answers. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/GrCpDaAfw6o

Don’t miss our other conversations with Kurt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/kurt-francom/

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In LDS Culture, we are constantly told to keep ourselves pure so that the Holy Ghost can dwell within us, that somehow sin separates us from the Holy Spirit. But there are cases where the Holy Ghost ministered to clearly sinful people. How do we explain that? Does God dwell in unholy temples? Kurt Francom will tackle that question. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/afEWYDY82_M

Don’t miss our other conversations with Kurt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/kurt-francom/

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Kurt Francom is the author of “Is God Disappointed in Me?” He says God is never disappointed in us and embraces grace. But did he go too far? Is orthodox Kurt Francom spouting heresy? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/zRMArlcd3CQ

Don’t miss our other conversations with Kurt: https://gospeltangents.com/people/kurt-francom/

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We’re going to be discussing Mormons and crime. Steve Mayfield passed away on March 30, 2024. This interview is from 2018 where we discussed his collection of Mormon crime, both good guys and bad guys. For example, did you know that it was a Mormon FBI agent who arrested Patty Hearst following her participation of a bank robbery? We’ll also discuss one of the most notorious spies in U.S, history, Robert Hanssen. Hanssen was also a Mormon FBI agent who passed secrets to the Russians. Of course, Steve also has a collection on the Mark Hofmann case, and we’ll discuss his work with George Throckmorton who discovered how Mark Hofmann was forging documents. The “Dead Lee Scroll” is also a forgery we’ll discuss, that hasn’t been definitively tied to Hofmann. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/JzCO6LI5lXg

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Mormon Connection to Patty Hearst KidnappingIntroduction

I’d like to introduce Steve Mayfield. We’ll talk about Mormon involvement in the Patty Hearst kidnapping case. Did you know that it was a Mormon FBI agent that arrested Patty? Check out our conversation…

GT: 00:01:01 Welcome to Gospel Tangents.

Steve: 00:01:03 Thank You.

GT: 00:01:04 I’m excited to have Steve Mayfield here. He is a documentation collector and we’re going to talk a little bit about Mark Hofmann. We’re going to talk a little bit about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. We’re going to talk a little bit about the FBI and Mormons.

Steve: 00:01:31 Yes.

GT: 00:01:32 Which I think will be a lot of fun. So, Steve has some amazing stories and so why don’t you get us a little bit about your background?

Steve: 00:01:36 Okay.

GT: 00:01:37 How did you get involved in collecting?

Steve: 00:01:39 Oh, gee. Well, I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay area. For those interested in genealogy, I’m a seventh generation Latter-day Saint. So, my family history goes all the way back to Ohio in one family line and Nauvoo. And I’ve always had an interest in history. When I was in high school, my desire was to be a history teacher specifically, maybe teach seminary or institute. But when I was a senior in high school, this was way back in 1974. Most people weren’t even around. We had one of these field trips to San Francisco and it included Golden Gate Park, the Chinese Tea Garden, an unofficial trip to the Haight-Ashbury, for those who remember that area, and also tour the FBI office. And I just fell in love with what people in the FBI did, all that work that I wanted to become the next was Efrem Zimbalist Jr, who happened to be the star of the TV show FBI back during the ’60s. After I graduated from high school, I served my mission in Colorado-Nebraska. And in late 1972 I was assigned to way out east to Grand Island, Nebraska, which is kind of hard for person used to mountains when it’s all flatland and wintery. One of the members of the local LDS district presidency out there was also the local FBI agent. So, we had a number of conversations. I indicated my interest in working with the FBI. And so, he suggested, well, get hired on as a clerk or clerical position with the bureau and then get a college degree and then you might become an agent. So, we put the paperwork in. I came home in February of ’73 and then by July I had received my appointment to work as a file clerk in San Francisco.

Steve: 00:03:27 I was there for four years. Of course, all this time I’m worried. I love history, but yet I’m in law enforcement. How can I intermingle? Well, my whole working career has been in law enforcement, but I seem to have come across historical occurrences in each of the agencies I worked for. When I was at the FBI, I was there during the attempted assassination of President Gerald Ford. But more importantly I was there during a very well-known case, this little kidnap case you might have heard of Patty Hearst. I wasn’t an agent, but I was involved in that in the fact that I was assigned to the Berkeley Office of the FBI where the kidnapping occurred for about three or four months. Then I came back to San Francisco. I was there the day she was arrested and brought in.

GT: 00:04:14 Ok, let’s back up a little bit. I’m not going to tell you how old I am. I am older than I want to admit, but even for me, (I’m sure some people think, wow, he’s an old man,) I don’t know the Patty Hearst story that well, so let’s, let’s back up and talk a little bit about that. Actually, I believe her father was actually more famous than she was.

Steve: 00:04:39 Yes, her grandfather–The Hearst Corporation, they are newspaper people. They owned one of the San Francisco papers, a very wealthy family. They have the Hearst Castle down in southern California, which is, you can’t buy it if you even tried. And she was a little 19-year-old college student.

GT: 00:04:57 So let’s talk about that. So, William Hearst, is that what his name was?

Steve: 00:05:01 Yes, William Hearst.

GT: 00:05:01 He was kind of the Bill Gates of his day, right?

Steve: 00:05:04 Yes.

GT: 00:05:04 So, he was a super-rich guy.

Steve: 00:05:06 He had these newspapers.

GT: 00:05:07 He had a bunch of newspapers.

Steve: 00:05:08 Right.

GT: 00:05:09 And then let’s talk a little bit. Wasn’t it called the Symbian Lebanese Army?

Steve: 00:05:14 Symbionese Liberation Army.

GT: 00:05:15 So tell me about that first.

Steve: 00:05:16 They were a group of radicals that are organized out of the prison system back in the ’60s, into the ’70s, started by a black radical by name Donald DeFreeze. He incorporated some white folk around him who were radical. And this is a time when you had actual physical violence as a meaningful trade. A couple of these members of the SLA killed the school superintendent in Oakland, Marcus Foster. {He was killed by] a guy named Russell Little and Joseph Remiro, and they were caught. The SLA did a lot of other things, but they had a list of some violent acts they were going to do. One of them was to kidnap. Patty is living with her boyfriend in Berkeley, going to school. They show up one day and break into the house and kidnap her. Boom. Well, [they said] “We want money, we want reputation, we want notoriety.”

GT: 00:06:08 So this group, the Symbian Liberation Army, were they just like an anarchist group?

Steve: 00:06:11 Yeah just radical, you know, terrorists.

GT: 00:06:17 They just wanted to create chaos basically.

Steve: 00:06:18 Yes, terrorists.

GT: 00:06:18 They didn’t really have any strategic, big long-term goals.

Steve: 00:06:21 Well, political, you know, help for the poor, help for the minorities, but [they] just need to raise money. They were trying to overthrow the government. But he had a small group of maybe eight people: Donald DeFreeze and a whole bunch of these white kids, white, young folk. Bill Harris, there was back in February of this year, CNN did a six-day special.

GT: 00:06:50 I saw that.

Steve: 00:06:50 And so, one of the people we interviewed was William Taylor Harris. He was one of the people involved with that, that whole thing. He’s been to prison, out, and whatever. So, she [Patty] was gone for a good time.

GT: 00:07:03 So let’s back up. So, the idea was this is just the kind of a chaos group, right?

Steve: 00:07:08 Yeah.

GT: 00:07:09 And .they just wanted to sow chaos. How can we sow chaos? Oh, we will kidnap the richest man’s daughter in the world. That’s basically what happened.

Steve: 00:07:16 Well, a very rich man and a very well-known person and she would do these tape recordings that would go to the media, you know, mom and dad.

GT: 00:07:25 Who is she?

Steve: 00:07:25 Patty Hearst would do these tape recordings. At first, she’s a victim, but over time she started changing from being a victim. Now she’s joined up with them. Now they’re wanting money and they’re running around doing various things, doing bank robberies. Somebody was killed along the bank robberies, but now she’s part of the radical group.

GT: 00:07:46 And she’s part of the group that robbed the bank.

Steve: 00:07:48 Yes.

GT: 00:07:48 Okay. So she’s gone from victim to the perpetrator essentially.

Steve: 00:07:52 Yes, and now she comes up with, they gave her the name of Tanya. They all had their little names. So that’s why you have here. This is a copy of the Wanted poster.

GT: 00:08:02 A little higher. There’s Patty Hearst right there. I think she actually didn’t like the name Patty. I heard that on that CNN [show] you were talking about she likes to go by Patricia.

Steve: 00:08:11 Patricia. Yeah. But this is after she committed the bank robbery. So now we have a problem because she’s a victim from a kidnapping, but now she’s wanted for bank robbery and all these other things.

Steve: 00:08:23 So, they’ve committed some crimes. They decide to go down to southern California which was probably a mistake. If they had stayed in the Bay area where there was this radical movement, they had safe houses. They had friends that would support them. They went to L.A., a completely different environment, trying to get in down here and that’s when they got caught in one of the suburbs of L.A. and the police found him and they had the shootout where the house burned and killed everybody. Patty wasn’t with them. The Harris’s and Patricia Hearst were in L.A., but they weren’t there at that case, while these other members of the SLA were killed. And then Patty and the Harris’s went back east came back out and eventually the FBI and of course the FBI was criticized very harshly because why can’t you find her? Why can’t you find her? But the FBI just started connecting the dots: who we know, knew Donald DeFreeze? Who knew these other people? Who are their friends?

Steve: 00:09:19 And eventually they connected the Soliah family. They said, “We know where they live.” So, they do surveillance on these homes. And I saw the Harris’s and they saw Patty. Then one day they did the rush, they arrested them. Now my interest obviously because I work for them, but also because there is a Mormon connection with the FBI. And in this case, the supervisor of the squad that handled bank robberies and kidnapping was a guy named Brian Wheeler, who at the time of the kidnapping was a member of the San Francisco Sunset Ward bishopric. When they divided and made a special squad of agents just to work on that case, one of the agents was a guy named Jason Moulton. He is LDS and he is one of the agents that arrested Patty Hearst and on the CNN special, he’s the FBI agent they interview on it. Jason retired about 15 years ago. [He] was the assistant special agent in charge of the FBI in Seattle.

Steve: 00:10:14 About five years ago, he and his wife served a mission out in Kentucky, a short term mission. But you had a number of other agents in the San Francisco Division that worked on that case. Again, I had the involvement because I worked within the Berkeley Office. After she was arrested, myself and other clerks spent a whole week booking in all the evidence and all the materials they picked up and I had an opportunity on two occasions to go out up sit in on the trial. And I sat a couple of rows right behind Patty and her attorney F. Lee Bailey.

GT: 00:10:42 Oh really?

Steve: 00:10:42 Yes.

GT: 00:10:42 The O.J. lawyer.

Steve: 00:10:45 Yes! Which I learned that he was not much of an attorney at that time. I never had been impressed with him, but that was intimately involved in that thing. So, these historical events, I’m saying, well, my history. And of course, that’s what I started doing what you see around me. It’s being a documentation collector. I collect newspaper clippings and things off the Internet. I will tape record things off the TV and radio. That was a label that George Throckmorton gave to me. I’m not a document collector per se, dealing with old documents, but they’re connected because I collect these things now.

GT: 00:11:25 So you have a lot of newspaper clippings and things like that, and recordings.

Steve: 00:11:29 Yes, and recordings. A lot of this stuff that had been donated to BYU since 2004. I’ve been donating my collection down there and I’ll share with other people. We were talking about Matt Harris.

GT: 00:11:42 Well let me back up. Before we do that, I noticed that wanted poster you have is autographed it looks like. Can you tell us who that autograph is?

Steve: 00:11:52 Well, it says Patricia Hearst. The problem is, this is not an actual [poster.] Oh, this was an original one here. This one is a photo.

GT: 00:12:07 Oh, it’s a photo of the original.

Steve: 00:12:08 I don’t know if that’s a real autograph or not because there are some differences.

GT: 00:12:11 We have got to talk to George Throckmorton to figure out.

Steve: 00:12:13 Yeah, probably have to show it. I just bought it because I wanted a copy of her “wanted” poster, just her.

GT: 00:12:18 Ok, show us the other one that you’ve got there.

Steve: 00:12:20 Ok, this isn’t what, this is legitimate. This is one of the original, Wanted posters of the Harris’s and Patricia Hearst.

GT: 00:12:31 Wow. That’s cool.

Steve: 00:12:32 Again this was one of the things. Before I left the FBI in ’77, they were authorized to get rid of some old files. So, it became a kind of a free-for-all for getting things. They had copies of a Tokyo Rose’s tape recordings from World War II.

GT: 00:12:52 Tokyo Rose?

Steve: 00:12:52 She was this lady during World War II would send messages to the GI’s trying to convince them that they’re going to lose the war.

GT: 00:13:01 Oh she was a Japanese propagandist.

Steve: 00:13:03 Yeah. Yeah.

GT: 00:13:03 Okay.

Steve: 00:13:04 And it wasn’t on tapes. It was actually on records. That’s how they were recorded. They were going to throw it away. Well, then we started lifting these things, a Wanted poster. They had one Wanted Posters of some of the gangsters from the 1930s. They went in a hurry. And so I was able to snag a few things, but you know, people were making collections. I don’t know if that was proper or not, you know, but a lot of these historical things or being salvaged from the FBI files.

Steve: 00:13:30 So anyway, after I was there for four years, I came back. My folks had moved back to Utah and I moved back here so I could go to Weber State. I graduated in 1980.

GT: 00:13:39 Weber State! Weber State! Great! Great! Great!

Steve: 00:13:42 Wildcats, Yes.

GT: 00:13:42 There’s not many of us around.

Steve: 00:13:46 That’s a comment I made there in Boise at Sunday devotional.

GT: 00:13:50 Yes, Paul Reeve, we love Paul Reeve, but don’t be talking trash about Weber State.[1]

Steve: 00:13:55 That’s right. That’s what [Paul] had made a comment during his talk up there. Anyway, that’s another topic.

Steve Mayfield: Crime Scene PhotographerIntroduction

In our next conversation with Steve Mayfield, we will learn more about his background. It turns out he is a crime scene photographer, and we will briefly touch on some cases he has worked on. Check out our conversation….

Steve: 00:14:01 I moved back to Colorado in 1981 and got on with the sheriff’s department. Hey, my degree is in law enforcement. [I got a job] in Jefferson County, Colorado, which is out of Golden, which is on the west side. Now during that nine years I worked for them, nothing too exciting [happened] except the fact that Jefferson County, after I left, nine years later in 1999, gave us Columbine.

Steve: 00:14:30 So that was my department. I used to work for and I knew a lot of the people involved. Again, I can get these newspaper clippings over there and like I told you earlier, that one thing I’ve been doing since I started doing this, whether I was in San Francisco or Denver or even Salt Lake, if I didn’t buy the paper, I could go to the library and get out of state newspapers. I think almost every other week I would go to libraries and spend [time.] In the Denver Library is [I spent] three or four hours just photocopying clippings. I fell in love with the New York Times. The New York Times is one paper that they have microfilm of all their papers from way back. From the start of 1850 to the present. So, I’d get the microfilm and go over all of the articles. I had a project. I was going to photocopy everything they had on the Mormon Church and I got halfway through it and I’ve still got more to do, but it’s amazing how, as they go over the years, these articles that they would have, like from the 1850s, where you’d see names like Grant or Sherman, or Custer, all these people. And Brigham Young’s getting just as much space in the papers as these guys are. They even had reporters in the 1800s out here doing stories for the New York Times. Of course, the New York Times, is the grand dame of all papers and in America. And there was one year, particular year, they had over 100 articles in one particular year on Mormonism.

GT: 00:15:55 Wow.

Steve: 00:15:56 That’s almost two a week.

GT: 00:15:57 What year was this, approximately?

Steve: 00:15:58 The 1880s.

GT: 00:15:59 Oh, so polygamy was big.

Steve: 00:16:01 Yeah. And when you consider the paper wasn’t the big paper it is. It may have been eight or 10 sheets, but that’s almost two a week.

GT: 00:16:08 Wow.

Steve: 00:16:09 There would be other years where there was none. And that’s not even talking about articles about Ezra Taft Benson or George Romney or politicians. And so it kind of back my mind is one thing.

Steve: 00:16:21 I’ve got boxes someplace of all these photocopies of their off their microfilm. But that was one of the things I loved to do, was going down, and going to the library. And of course, point [your camera] over here. I will buy papers and do it. When I lived in Colorado I had the major papers of Utah sent over to me. That was the Logan, Ogden, Salt Lake papers, the Provo, St. George papers were sent to me. I had subscriptions and, oh, and BYU, the Daily Universe, whatever. I came back here and I kind of backed off on the other papers, but I still get the local papers here.

GT: 00:17:03 So are you one of the biggest collectors of Mormon media stuff?

Steve: 00:17:06 Well, probably not as much as a church, but I do. And because of that I’ve collected–not just to kind of hide it for myself, but to share it. That’s why last number of years I’ve shared, for example, you’ve interviewed Matt Harris in Colorado. For the past year, I will pick up things. Because of his interest in the black priesthood issue, [I’ve given him] clippings. Now he says some papers he get on the Internet, but others he doesn’t. I’m picking things out. One of the things I’ve noticed is that on the church magazines: The Ensign, and The Friend, and whatever, the teeny bopper [magazine is.]

GT: 00:17:44 New Era.

Steve: 00:17:45 New Era. [There are] a lot more photos of black members of the church in it. it’s just [happened in the] last couple of years, like the Conference issue. A number, about 20 pages, had black people in them. No, I don’t know if the Church magazines are trying to incorporate that in a show of that inclusiveness or what, but I just kinda noticed it. So, I will buy….

GT: 00:18:08 So you’ve noticed a change in church magazines where it was all white before and now there’s more color.

Steve: 00:18:13 Yes, there’s more diversity of minorities and things like that. And the same thing with the Church News and with this being the year of June 8th and things like that. So I’m just sending you a big packet one. Oh, I went up to Boise Mormon History Association, Matt was there. “Here you go Matt.” I had taped interviews off the radio. Again, I enjoyed doing this because I’m collecting it to help people who might be writing. Me, I have poor writing skills, so I’ll never write a book, but to share it with people. And I’ve done that with a number of other people who have presented too. My friend Craig Foster has written along with Newell Bringhurst, three[-volume] series of Persistence of Polygamy. Volume three has my photos in them of some of these communities.

GT: 00:19:00 Oh, yes. You’re a photographer.

Steve: 00:19:02 Yes.

GT: 00:19:02 Tell us about your photography.

Steve: 00:19:05 I grew up in a home where my dad was a camera salesman. [He] managed to camera store in San Francisco. I was lousy as a kid taking pictures. I had this little instamatic when I went on my mission. If I took more than one roll of pictures a year, I mean it was great. But I got here in Utah when I went to school and got myself a nice camera, the 35 millimeter. So, I started taking more. But 35 millimeter is expensive. A roll of film is 7-8 bucks just to get it developed. Well, they came up with a digital camera, thank goodness. Now one of my, which we haven’t gotten to yet, where I work now in law enforcement, was the Salt Lake City Police Department in the crime lab and that’s how I know George Throckmorton, but we’ll get into that. One of my things I do at crime scenes is photography, so that gets built right into it. And with digital you can take a thousand pictures and not waste a dime on anything. You just have to download it on a computer and you’re fine.

Steve: 00:20:05 Well, a number of years ago, maybe 15 plus years ago, I started taking pictures at the Sunstone Symposium and they appreciated that. So next thing you know, I’m now their official photographer. I go to the symposium and I just documented everything. I miss some of the sessions, but I just go around and taking pictures and they know it. I have fun with it because I catch people sometimes eating with their mouth open or sleeping or whatever. Then I got involved with doing it for the Mormon History Association, for the John Whitmer Historical Society, Utah State Historical Society when they have their conference, they have me come and do it. And they were very gracious about it because they’ll put my name up here, who does this because I’m willing to miss out some sessions or hearing the whole session, like taking photos of people who are speaking, what’s going on. And of course, you know why I go to things like Curt Bench’s book signing and take pictures and Curt is very good about it. Here’s a disk of my photos. Again, back in June we went up to Boise with a Mormon History Association. We had 1500 images I took.

GT: 00:21:13 Oh Wow.

Steve: 00:21:14 And I’ve got a back list of people, “Can lose sending me a disk? Can you send me a couple of my photos?”

GT: 00:21:19 I’ll say one of the first–I don’t remember. I think it was Mormon History Association. Usually I try to either sit in the front or the back, wherever the closest plug is because I was got to plug in my laptop. But I remember, they sent out a newsletter and I was in the picture. I was like, “Oh, nice.”

Steve: 00:21:36 And you got one of me too, a good one. But it’s fun too because everybody knows me after 20 years of doing this as “You’re the photographer.” I got to know Elder Jensen, the church historian and Elder Snow. They know I have a camera. I have people come up and say, “Where’s your camera?”

Steve: 00:21:53 “Well, here it is.”

Steve: 00:21:54 If I don’t have my camera with me, they say, “Well go get your camera. There’s something wrong. You have to have you camera.” But it’s fun and it’s enjoyable and I feel I’m involved in something. And again, it’s something that’s historical enough, but eventually these can go to BYU. And I get with digital where you don’t know how long the digital is gonna last. We’re finding out that negatives, if they’re not preserved, right, they start to fade. That’s why the fun part is going to BYU because the film negatives, they’re putting in a freezer basically and if you want to get it, you have to have a two-day notice because they have to bring it out, let it out.

GT: 00:22:31 Thaw it out.

Steve: 00:22:31 Thaw it out to use it. We don’t know what’s going to happen with the disk. Putting it on a computer saves them, but on the disk itself, we don’t know yet when they will disintegrate or not.

GT: 00:22:42 Put them on the Internet and they will last forever.

Steve: 00:22:46 Yeah, exactly. Like I said, it’s been one of the things. Besides some criminal historical events I’ve had pictures on. It’s the LDS stuff. I’m proud to say that in 2008, the Mormon History Association Conference in Sacramento, I was given a special award for my contributions to Mormon History because of what you’ve seen here, the collection, the photography and things like that, which I’m very humbled at because it was such a sweet thing to have happened. So, I got to stand up there and get my little certificate. So, it excites me when I go to these things because of this stuff, you know, and get away from what I do for a living.

GT: 00:23:30 Now you mentioned you were a crime scene photographer.

Steve: 00:23:34 Or a crime scene investigator. A crime lab tech. These are all titles I have.

GT: 00:23:39 So, especially here in Utah, can you talk about your participation in some of the more famous or infamous crimes?

Steve: 00:23:49 Not presently, as long as I’m employed. I will say in the 25 years I worked with Salt Lake Police Department, I’ve been involved in the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping. I did some photography and work on that; Lori Hacking murder; the little girl that was kidnapped and killed Destiny Norton. One of the things I’ve done for about 11 years was to document the activities of the protesters at General Conference.

GT: 00:24:16 Oh, Kate Kelly?

Steve: 00:24:18 Yep. Just the street. Preachers and things like that.

GT: 00:24:23 Oh, the street preachers.

Steve: 00:24:23 Because of the lawsuits that these folks have had against the city and the police department, it became necessary for us to document their activities to show that as a city, as a police department, we’re following federal guidelines of free speech and city ordinances. They were taking pictures of us and we would take pictures of them. And for 11 years I did it every Conference. So I don’t know what went on inside Conference Center, but I was out there with all the various groups and things. It was important enough that when they had the federal lawsuit here, my photos went to the federal court and they also went to the appeals court in Denver. They used my photos and defending the city.

GT: 00:24:57 Which federal lawsuit? I’m not familiar with that.

Steve: 00:24:59 The federal courts here in Salt Lake, on the lawsuit. The street preachers sued the city for violating their rights of free speech.

GT: 00:25:07 What year was this?

Steve: 00:25:07 Oh this was 10 years ago, something in the past. Because I started in ’95 and went to about 2006 or so. Then we stopped doing it because it became unnecessary, but they were saying that–see, we had free speech zones where these people could stand as long as they weren’t blocking people walking across the crosswalk or blocking entrances. Sometimes you might have a little–I call them push and shoves, you know. Somebody didn’t like what you’re doing and push and shoved. We had to control it.

GT: 00:25:39 Yes, some of those can be not very nice people.

Steve: 00:25:41 Yeah. Sometimes they get mentioned. There was some fun stuff other times because you’ve got the street preachers and anybody who had something. Sometimes they’d have protest marches, you know, it was almost like it was conference, and then there was a circus going on outside. Even Mormon people do their thing.

Steve: 00:25:59 There was one lady came from Idaho and she had a sign that said, “If you’re a Mormon, I’ll give you a hug.” And she was hugging everybody. It’s like, “Whoa!” So that was interesting seeing that and it usually had media coverage sometimes. “Well here they are out there protesting.” Again, Craig Foster and I, a couple of years ago at a FAIR conference did a presentation, at Mormon History and at a FAIR conference about the history of protest around Temple Square. And just some of the stuff, it’s just crazy. I mean when the day comes when there’s nobody out there, I’m going to worry because they’re going to be there. They always have. I saw that when I first attended a General Conference in April 1970 when I came back with my stake president and they were passing stuff out. What’s all this?

Steve: 00:26:41 And that’s how I came across Jerald and Sandra Tanner, because someone was passing out their newsletter, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, or Modern Microfilm Company at that time. So that’s why I found out about them and all these people pamphleteering out there. Now it’s even gotten bigger because they’ll have signs and whatever and you’ll have marches. I mean it’s part of the environment in Salt Lake and in other places because they’ll also do it at Temple Pageants, temple open houses.

GT: 00:27:11 Yeah, Manti, I’ve seen them there at Manti Pageant.

Steve: 00:27:12 Manti, up at Martin Harris [Pageant.] Every temple-opening they will be there. Again, in Denver, in the ’80s when we had Denver Temple opening, we had three weeks and they were out there and like I said, there was always somebody every night, for those three weeks lecturing about the church someplace in Denver. And they had the one Protestant church where they had their own little visitor’s center where you go to the temple, and then you go over there, and they can have their little thing too.

GT: 00:27:44 A protestant visitors’ center?

Steve: 00:27:47 It was a Lutheran church, but a number of Protestant churches, evangelical churches that kind of joined up together to present that stuff. The thing about history that church leaders say, there’s nothing new with this stuff. We’ve had it from day one. I jokingly say that the minute Joseph walked out of the grove, we’ve had it. We’ve had our critics both secular and religious and nothing’s new. It’s the same thing and like I said, the day comes when they don’t do it, I’m going to be worried. It’s just part of the environment and you go with it. I know one of the things I try to tell people down there, because people would come and say, “Well, can we stop them doing it?”

Steve: 00:28:23 “No. They have a right to be out here on the sidewalk and do it. Just ignore them. Don’t get involved with them. We don’t get into fight. Just ignore them.” Sometimes they will go way overboard what their insults. They used to stand out before they were removed from the Main Street Plaza and stand up there near the gate of the east side of the temple and yell and call the brides sluts, whores, and prostitutes.

Steve: 00:28:45 The most important day of your life, and your family filming and taking pictures and these guys are yelling this stuff. And they would taunt. Sometimes they would wear temple outfits. That’s another thing. They were wearing temple outfit outside, wave the apron at people, wave the garments at them. They had one case way back in ’94 before I started doing it where this gentleman, member of the church from Provo area came up got in the way and grabbed the garment out of the guys hands. The Guy said, “Well, he assaulted me. He touched me.”

Steve: 00:29:22 You know, this poor guy had to go to court. And they basically said, well, “you really didn’t attack him,” but he did. So he was given a year’s probation and they said, “if you keep your nose clean, we will wipe it off with books.” But it’s this taunting that you see sometimes. And sometimes the best thing is just ignore it.

GT: 00:29:38 Which is very hard to do sometimes.

Steve: 00:29:40 Sometimes.

GT: 00:29:41 They can be very offensive. I’ve heard some.

Steve: 00:29:43 And of course like I say, you’ve got to be careful because they’re filming. I’ve seen on some Facebook pages my picture shows up and “Oh, there’s the guy taking our picture of me taking a picture of them taking a picture of me.”

GT: 00:29:59 So let me back up. There’s nothing, you can’t really talk too much about the Elizabeth Smart case or Mark Hacking?

Steve: 00:30:06 You know, just I was involved. I’ve been in the Smart house on a couple occasions, well in fact a number of places. My job was just take pictures or process for fingerprints and things like that. That was a part of what I would do. The same thing with the other cases. I was just involved with them to some degree with what I do, photography or collecting evidence or so forth. Like I said, I missed out on Trolley Square.

GT: 00:30:38 That was horrible.

Steve: 00:30:39 But I did do all those things.

GT: 00:30:42 Some people might not know what you were referring to with Trolley Square. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Steve: 00:30:47 Yeah. It was 2007. A gentleman walked in to Trolley Square in Salt Lake.

GT: 00:30:53 Which is a mall.

Steve: 00:30:53 Yes, on the east side there and opened fire and killed five or six people before he was killed by an off-duty police officer on scene. It was one of those just random mass shooting type of things. And that comes right after Elizabeth Smart, so it got a lot of national publicity.

GT: 00:31:17 It was Valentine’s Day, or the day before I think it was.

Steve: 00:31:17 Yes, something like that because I remember I was on the phone talking long distance to a girlfriend and I’m watching TV and all of a sudden I was like, “Oh my God.” Because they’re right there live. And I said “That’s Trolley Square, what’s going on? But, I never got involved with that one.

GT: 00:31:35 I was actually in graduate school at the time and I remember somebody said, “Don’t go down by Trolley Square. There’s cops everywhere.” And so, I remember I did kind of drive by and I had no idea what was going on at the time and I found out later. It was terrible.

Steve: 00:31:49 It takes a lot of work because of the scene itself, and diagramming, and pictures, and collecting. It’s just one of those tragic things in our time. We have too many.

GT: 00:32:01 It was so senseless. It just made no sense at all.

Steve: 00:32:03 It’s one of the sad things of my business. I kind of joke, sadly joking, but I’ve always got job security.

GT: 00:32:16 Unfortunately.

Steve: 00:32:16 Unfortunately. But I’m looking forward here in the next year to retire maybe. So, I go back to doing the fun stuff. Like I said, what I do with this stuff I enjoy. I have such a high, going to these conferences and dealing with all this stuff that just takes my mind off the bad stuff. But yet at the same time, my interest in history, I’m involved in some historical things.

Mormons & the FBIIntroduction

I’ve often heard that the FBI likes to hire Mormons. Is that true? We will discuss that with Steve Mayfield, and discuss Mormons killed in the line of duty at the FBI. We will also talk about the only Mormon FBI agent to be caught spying for the Russians and talk about a religious discrimination case where Mormonism was a central issue. Check out our conversation….

GT: 00:32:39 Well, let’s talk. I know earlier we were talking a little bit about Mormons and the FBI and so that is something you can give us some more details.

Steve: 00:32:48 Yes. Again, working with the FBI for four years, there was a very noticeable thing about the Mormons. There’s been an underlying fable about Mormons and the FBI, some good, some bad. When I started working in San Francisco, they had what they call the 10-day interview where you were interviewed by one of the big bosses. This gentleman was not LDS, but he was an assistant special agent in charge, which means he’s one of the big bosses. It was interesting because he is one of the agents who worked on the Mississippi murders back in the early ’60s of the three civil rights workers.

GT: 00:33:28 Emmett Till?

Steve: 00:33:29 Not Emmett Till. It was these three college students who came down and were killed and buried out in the field. Mississippi Burning movie is kind of about that. But he was involved. Because on his wall was a picture of him overlooking these bodies as they’re pulling him out of the ground, kind of gross.

Steve: 00:33:44 But he asked me, he says, “Why I see you served a Mormon mission.” And he talked about Mormon agents he knew. My interview was 20 minutes. Five minutes was about my work and what I thought of the FBI. The other 15 was about Mormonism, my mission, and things like that. So that started up. Well, I got to know a lot of the Mormon agents there. In fact, two of the agents were in my LDS ward in Walnut Creek, California. But, I was told when they identify, “He’s a member of the tribe.”

Steve: 00:34:15 “What do you mean a member of the tribe?”

Steve: 00:34:16 “He’s LDS.” That’s how we would identify ourselves. “He’s a member of the tribe.” In L.A. they were called the LDS Mafia in the L.A. office, and we’ll get into that story, but that’s how we knew it. Well, one thing I noticed, I just come up my mission, so antagonism, we saw it.

Steve: 00:34:33 Where the agents sat, they called the bullpen and they hit a little storage room where they put their files and things. They had a bulletin board. Every once in a while there’d be an article about the LDS Church pinned up to the board, underlined and marked and everything. It would come down and go back up, come down. There would be snide comments about Mormons, as you go around not realizing I’m LDS. I’d hear these things. But it was kind of “Be forewarned. There’s some antagonism.”

Steve: 00:34:59 We had a couple of agents in San Francisco. They were evangelical Christians. They had this one run around with this one guy. He kept trying to give me stuff and “I’ve already got that pamphlet. I don’t need to see another one.” But then of course we had the Patty Hearst case. The special agent in charge of the squad that handled bank robberies and kidnappings was LDS. His name was Brian Wheeler. Did I already say this?

GT: 00:35:26 No, go ahead.

Steve: 00:35:26 His name was Brian Wheeler. At the time of the kidnapping. He was a counselor in the bishopric of the San Francisco.

GT: 00:35:32 What was the time of the Patty Hearst kidnapping.

Steve: 00:35:33 It was 1974. A number of the Mormon agents were involved in investigation, various aspects. But the big one was one of the agents that was credited with the arrest of Patty Hearst. It was an agent named Jason Moulton, a Utah native. He came from Heber Valley, went to BYU. [He was] LDS. And in fact, in the CNN documentary back in February, he was the agent they interviewed, so he [was] an expert on the thing I would think. He retired about 15 years ago as the assistant special agent in charge of the Seattle office. And he and his wife served a mission in Kentucky about five years ago. And I’ve had some minor contacts with him since then. But one of the things that happened during the Hearst case when I was assigned to the Berkeley Resident Agency, they brought a number of agents in from other agencies for extra manpower. [They] came in from Sacramento, San Diego and L.A. One of the agents they brought up from L.A. was a guy named Richard W. Miller. [He was a] very interesting character because 10 years later he was first FBI agent arrested for espionage as a Mormon—as a Russian spy.

GT: 00:36:45 As a Mormon, Russian spy.

Steve: 00:36:47 Ex-Mormon because he’d been excommunicated prior to this for extra marital affair. But that didn’t stop people from going after him. Well, I found out very quickly he was LDS because we would ask them, “We have an agent in the Eureka office. He is part of the San Francisco Division who LDS who was the stake president at the same time up there in Eureka. Are you related to him?”

Steve: 00:37:07 He said, “No, I know who he is. This is first Richard Miller.”

GT: 00:37:11 There is two Richard Millers.

Steve: 00:37:12 Yeah. We got Richard W, which is agent I’m talking about.

GT: 00:37:16 The spy.

Steve: 00:37:16 and Richard G. Miller…

GT: 00:37:18 Was the stake president. He was the good guy.

Steve: 00:37:22 Interesting connection. Again, another connection. He says, “I know who he is. He’s Mormon. I’m a Mormon too, but I’m not related to him.”

Steve: 00:37:30 Well, some of the backbiting and backtalking about him was that they would describe this Richard W. Miller, the future spy as that fat, dumb, lazy, stupid Mormon agent, not realizing, “Hey, I’m LDS too here.” you just kind of ignore it. Well, after about three or four weeks, they all went back to L.A. and I’m sitting at my desk next to the office of the senior resident agent, the boss of the Berkeley Office named Don Jones. He was not LDS. He was a Presbyterian elder and he knew I was LDS, but I’m sitting there listening. He’s talking to this other agent about how unprofessional these agents were about this other agent badmouthing him and attacking his religion. He says, “I’m going to write a letter to the SAC down in L.A., the boss down there and say how bad this was. And then he kind of saw me, kind of eavesdropping, turned to me and said, “So does that meet with your approval?”

Steve: 00:38:23 “Oh yeah, sure.” So, there’s always an underlying Mormon thing there. And again, like I said, it wasn’t like every day. And you got along fine, but it was just once in a while you can get these snide comments. I had one agent who I got along with fine until he found out it was Mormon. After that he gave me the cold shoulder. So anyway, Richard Miller 10 years later and so being busted. He lasted almost 20 years in the bureau, but he was just sloppy. Some people would say, “he should never have been hired.” He went to BYU, served a mission, could speak Spanish, but he was overweight all the time. He lost car keys. He was trying to sell things like Amway out of his car. He was just always in trouble.

GT: 00:39:07 Oh really?

Steve: 00:39:08 So I guess he was trying to resurrect his career his best. So, he got started communicating unofficially with this female Russian spy. He had an affair with her. They arrested him, went through three trials. But what added onto that problem is that the special agent in charge of the FBI office in L.A. at that time was a guy named Richard Bretzing, LDS. He’d been a bishop, was in a stake presidency and he had butted heads. After he came in there, one of the assistant special agent in charge in L.A. was a guy named Bernardo Matt Perez. Matt Perez had been special agent in charge of the San Juan office, but got busted back, and sent to L.A. So, he got demoted and went there. Well, Richard Bretzing butted heads all the time. Well Matt Perez felt we should fire Richard Miller. He is incompetent. Bretzing said, “We’re not going to do that. I’m trying to help him.” And then come the spy thing, which kind of turned to black eye.

GT: 00:40:11 So let me make sure. Bretzing was LDS?

Steve: 00:40:14 Yes he is LDS.

GT: 00:40:19 So Matt Perez, he was not LDS.

Steve: 00:40:20 No.

GT: 00:40:20 So Matt said, “You need to fire this Mormon agent that everybody viewed as incompetent.”

Steve: 00:40:24 Yeah. And Richard Bretzing, I don’t think he can. He can make recommendations. I think the final decision comes out of Washington DC, whether they do it. I sense a lot of agents were not up to par, but the bureau was very reluctant I think to fire people because you spend all that money and time recruiting them and training them and you kind of hope that they will quit on their own. I saw that. I saw them do that with not only agents, but with clerks because I was supervised by some clerks and she of course wanted to get rid of people but let’s just give him a stupid job and maybe they will quit, which would happen. I’m sitting in this corner and I’m just going to leave because I’m not doing anything. But again, that’s just my perspective of how they would do things.

Steve: 00:41:05 Well, later on they had three trials on Richard Miller. He eventually went to prison. Richard Bretzing retired, moved to Utah, became head of the LDS Church security for number of years. He was a mission president in Washington, DC and now he’s just enjoying his retirement. Matt Perez was part of lead plaintiff in a lawsuit by Latino FBI agents against the FBI for discrimination. They had two groups: racial discrimination and religious discrimination. And also, he kept bringing up the Mormon issue all the time and when it finally was settled in federal court in El Paso, Judge Button, I believe that was his name, ruled that yes, there was racial discrimination against these agents for promotions and whatever. But the religious aspect, I think there’s points there, but he kind of backed off. He didn’t rule on that issue. This is big-time.

GT: 00:42:01 Let me make sure I’m understanding that. So, Matt Perez was complaining about religious discrimination, that the Mormons were protecting Mormons. Is that what you are saying?

Steve: 00:42:09 Among many things. Mormons are getting promoted over Latinos.

GT: 00:42:12 Wow. So, Mormons are being favored in this case.

Steve: 00:42:15 Yes, favored. And because of Bretzing being kind to Richard Miller by not firing him, or things like that. And of course, we bring in all these other agents from other offices who are Latino. The religious issue came up. In fact, one of the co-plaintiffs in this case was also a Latino agent and was also LDS. So, we did have that, but I have a book that he wrote or somebody wrote for him with his name on it where he talks about this all time. Not only was there discrimination on the race issue, but Mormon stuff comes up all the time. So there was apparently some major concern there. And this comes right after Black agents had sued the bureau.

GT: 00:42:56 Over racial discrimination?

Steve: 00:42:57 Yes. So, Hoover’s FBI was very white, you know, and it took a long time before–it wasn’t until the early ’70s they hired a female agent. And same thing with this. Well, things have really changed since then. But in the ’80s they had to go through these lawsuits to change things. Matt Perez later was promoted to assistant, or the special agent in charge of Albuquerque. He went back and was the supervisor back in DC at the FBI office back there. So, I guess he got what he got. But just the fact that there was this Mormon connection involved in this.

GT: 00:43:32 Now is it true that the FBI likes to recruit Mormons?

Steve: 00:43:36 I think that’s more myths and truth. It stands out because hopefully a young man or young woman who goes to work for the FBI has the background. Well technically, you know, we’re supposed to have these morals and characteristics. We don’t party, we don’t smoke, we don’t drink. A lot of them served missions, so they had language skills and so that was attractive. Now some of this may go back to a Mormon FBI agent was killed in the line of duty back in 1930. We had the gangsters, you know, Don Dillenger.

GT: 00:44:10 Before we do that. I just want to finish up with one more thing. We’re back to Richard Miller. So, what was he convicted of?

Steve: 00:44:17 A spy. He was passing on information.

GT: 00:44:19 What was the information what he passed on?

Steve: 00:44:21 Just internal material on what the Russian spies are doing and passing on information that he acquired as an agent and passing onto this female.

GT: 00:44:33 So passing information about Russian agents in the US.

Steve: 00:44:37 And other stuff that she could use to pass onto her superiors.

GT: 00:44:42 Okay. So, did he get any agents killed or anything like that?

Steve: 00:44:45 No.

GT: 00:44:46 He wasn’t passing on FBI information.

Steve: 00:44:48 It may have been FBI information that he had as an agent. He was passing on, trying to get stuff from her. So, he had to kind of tempt her with stuff too.

GT: 00:44:59 Was this financial? Was he getting paid?

Steve: 00:45:02 I can’t remember whether it was financial or not. It was unauthorized and that’s where he got in trouble. But he was trying to save his career because they had pictures of him meeting with this girl under surveillance. He was put under surveillance by the FBI so they have pictures of him and he was doing it unauthorized and that’s what probably got him convicted. So, after he served his time, he moved here to Utah and I heard a rumor a couple of years ago that he’d passed away, but I haven’t been able to verify that.

GT: 00:45:33 Okay, so he could still be in jail right now?

Steve: 00:45:35 No, no, he’s out. He’s out of prison. Whether he’s still alive or not, I don’t know.

GT: 00:45:40 Okay. So, go back to you. So, you were saying something.

Steve: 00:45:46 During the time of the John Dillinger and the Baby Face Nelson and all these criminals, a number of agents were brought in to do special things. Of course, the most famous was Melvin Purvis. He was the lead guy out of Chicago checking with people. We had a team of other agents, inspectors with him, including one name Samuel P. Cowley. The name sounds familiar. That’s because he was a son of Apostle Matthias Cowley and half-brother to Matthew Cowley. Samuel Cowley served a mission in Hawaii for four years and got a law degree and he became an agent. He was only going to be there a short time. He wanted to be a lawyer, but he got involved. He was one of the members of this team. Well, he was involved in the Dillenger case and the Barker family thing. But he was killed in the line of duty by Baby Face Nelson. Baby Face Nelson has three notches in his belt for three agents that he killed during the time before he was killed. Samuel Cowley is buried here in Salt Lake area. And so, he was the first.

Steve: 00:46:50 Hoover took a liking to him because he was a hard worker. He just came and did his job and Hoover did not like Milton Purvis because Purvis got a lot of publicity that Hoover didn’t get. And eventually Purvis left in I think 1960, the same gun he used to kill a Baby Face Nelson or another gun he used to kill John Dillinger. He has done himself. He committed suicide, one of the sad things. Well, we’ve had three Mormon agents, FBI agents killed in the line of duty. Sam Cowley was the first and there was another agent.

GT: 00:47:21 He was killed. So, Samuel Cowley was killed by Baby Face Nelson.

Steve: 00:47:24 Right.

GT: 00:47:24 Okay.

Steve: 00:47:25 Another agent on this team of agents was a guy named Jay Newman, who was also LDS. Jay Newman served as special agent in charge of another office when he was in San Francisco in the ’30s or ’40s. He was a bishop in the San Francisco area. When he retired, he became the first director of public safety for the State of Utah and he’s been dead now for 20 years now, but he was part of this team. In fact, he was shot. The bullet went through his hat, bounced off his head, so he had a scar up there and he has a picture of his hat with a hole in it, but he’s great. He was a great diarist though. You go on the Internet, look on under Jay Newman, FBI, [you will find] pages and pages. This guy wrote big [stuff] talking about his career and everything. And it’s classic historically that you have somebody writing all this stuff about it.

Steve: 00:48:14 So there was another Mormon agent involved with these teams of agents. The second Mormon agent killed in line of duty, it was 1968 in San Antonio. [It was] a young man from Paris, Idaho named Douglas Price. He went to Utah State, served a mission, got in with the FBI and this is the first field office. They were down searching for a wanted fugitive. He was sent back to a car to pick up more ammunition and weapons. Boy, he got confronted by the guy they were looking for. He shot and killed him. And this wanted fugitive then turned the gun on himself. Douglas Price was buried up in Paris, Idaho, the Mormon community up there. What is interesting, is that his body was escorted back to Paris from San Antonio by another Mormon agent named Bob Porter, Robert Porter. What is significant about that is I knew Bob Porter in the San Francisco office. He had been a bishop down in San Ramon. And after I left he was transferred down to the San Diego Office and in 1979, was in the and the resident agency of El Central, which is east of San Diego where he and the other agent, that was in the office were to meet with a gentleman who had some complaints about the bureau. And this guy walked in and opened fire on these two agents and he killed them, but they also killed him. Rob Porter was one of those agents killed there in El Central. And it’s so interesting that he was one involved taking Price’s body back. [He was] a great man. I really appreciated him. He was a hard worker. I got to know his son, a guy named Ken Porter. Ken followed in his father’s footsteps and became an FBI agent, served 30 years, retired about five years ago. He was assistant special agent in charge here in the Salt Lake Office. He and I did a session at Sunstone in 2011, on Mormons in the FBI. That’s where all this idea came from. He is now a director of church security for North America.

GT: 00:50:21 Oh Wow.

Steve: 00:50:22 So they moved them up. Four other Mormon agents have died while on duty, but due to accidents. We got an agent Hart in 1960 died in an auto accident in Idaho. We had Mark Kirkland in an airplane crash and Hereford in another airplane crash. Then a Gregory Knapp was the last one about five or six years ago. It was in San Juan, Puerto Rico. He’d been on the beach and saved somebody from drowning but drowned himself. So, there are Mormon agents. And we’ve had a number of agents over the years. Once in while you read in the Church News about somebody in a stake presidency, FBI agent. There has been one Mormon, I forgot his name. I think Christiansen was an assistant director of one of the divisions for a while. So anyway, it’s there.

Steve: 00:51:14 Again, going back to your question is there favoritism? I don’t know. I don’t think so. Some people there, there’s a large percentage of Mormons in the FBI than any other religion or something like that. Or there’s a higher percentage compared to the population. I don’t know. No one’s ever done a study, so I think it’s more myth or people just supposing than it really is. It attracts people. Again, depending on whether you like or hate the FBI, you may make a thing about it.

John D. Lee’s Role in Mountain Meadows MassacreIntroduction

September 11, 1857 was the largest mass-murder in American history. Over 100 immigrants from Arkansas were killed in southern Utah. John D. Lee was the only person executed for this atrocity. In our conversation with Steve Mayfield, we’ll talk more about Lee’s involvement in the massacre. Check out our conversation….

GT: 00:51:44 Well, I see you’ve got a another, in fact I think you said this was an old newspaper article.

Steve: 00:51:53 It’s Frank Leslie’s Illustrated Newspaper. I have to say that, I have a friend down in Rocky Ridge which is down near Nephi. Malcolm Vickery is his name. He’s a member of the AUB Church, which is a polygamous church. They are the ones at the Point of the Mountain[2] is where their headquarters is. But he is down in Rocky Ridge.

GT: 00:52:21 AUB, that’s Kody Brown’s group, of Sister Wives.

Steve: 00:52:24 Yes, Kody Brown’s group. We’ve gone down. [He is] a very nice guy, very friendly guy, but open, you know. Like I said, and Craig Foster introduced me to them because Craig’s done a lot of work with them. But you go into their home. He’s only got two wives.

GT: 00:52:42 Only. {chuckles}

Steve: 00:52:42 But very warm, very welcoming. Well he collects books and things, so one day we’re down there having dinner one Sunday and he just says, “I got something for you.” He goes into and pulls this out and he’s [said], “These are photocopies, these are actual newspapers from 1877.”

GT: 00:52:57 Wow.

Steve: 00:52:58 And it’s about John D. Lee and Mountain Meadows [Massacre.]

GT: 00:53:00 That’s John D. Lee in the coffin.

Steve: 00:53:03 Yes, that’s him in the coffin and there’s a picture of him here, a drawing. And it was like, he just gives me these. [I said], “What do I owe you for them?”

Steve: 00:53:10 “Nothing.”

Steve: 00:53:11 I said, “Well, who do you want me to hurt? You know, who do you want me to beat up?”

Steve: 00:53:14 He said, “No.”

Steve: 00:53:14 He was just very gracious because that is his business. One of the things, he does to make some money is selling these things, like many of our friends who are book dealers. And so it’s like, Wow! that is just a generosity that you can just overlook.

GT: 00:53:30 It was an actual newspaper. So, tell us who John D. Lee was.

Steve: 00:53:32 John D. Lee was the young man from back east. I think he joined the church when he was a young man. He was an adopted son of Brigham Young.

GT: 00:53:44 Now the interesting thing about that is he was actually older than Brigham Young. Did you know that?

Steve: 00:53:51 I think you’re right. Yes. But, he had that tight connection with Brigham Young. Well, he goes down to southern Utah, northern Arizona and settles down there. There was a place, not far from Page, Arizona on the Utah side called Lee’s Ferry. He only lived there a couple of years, but it was where they could go across the Colorado River.

GT: 00:54:11 So let’s jump a little bit back in time, because as I recall, John D. Lee lived in Nauvoo, was there when the prophet was killed. He was sealed to Brigham back when they had what they called the Law of Adoption. I know my namesake, Dr. Richard Bennett, no relation, (kind of like the Millers there, no relation there,) but he talked a little bit about the Law of Adoption. So, at any rate, John D. Lee was sealed to Brigham as a son. Everybody came west, Brigham became governor.

GT: 00:54:54 And so what was it? It was 1857, I believe it was the Mountain Meadows Massacre. So, what was John D. Lee’s role in the massacre?

Steve: 00:55:03 He was one of the subordinates to it because he had other church leaders, Higbee. I’ve forgotten the names, but there were a number of others, Dame, William Dame, Higbee.

GT: 00:55:14 There’s a Klingensmith I know.

Steve: 00:55:16 Yes, Klingensmith, who were really in charge. He was just one of the military leaders.

GT: 00:55:20 In the Nauvoo Legion.

Steve: 00:55:22 Yes.

GT: 00:55:23 So Nauvoo Legion here in Utah.

Steve: 00:55:25 Yes, and they were the ones who committed the atrocity of killing these people from Arkansas.

GT: 00:55:30 Now what were the Mormons upset [about]? Because the Fancher Party, as I understand, they came down through northern Utah and then were going through southern Utah, on their away to California. What precipitated that?

Steve: 00:55:44 A lot of rumor. Again, you’re talking about a topic we could talk for the next 20 years about.

GT: 00:55:50 Oh, I know we could. Just give me a thumbnail sketch.

Steve: 00:55:50 [There was] something about this group. Now, according to the Mormons, and they are the ones that survived, these people were making threats at them, poisoning the water, poisoning the animals, saying they were going to join the army and come back. Because there was the army coming out to Utah.

GT: 00:56:06 Yeah. So, there were rumblings because there was supposedly a Mormon rebellion.

Steve: 00:56:11 Yes.

GT: 00:56:12 And so, was it Buchanan that was president?

Steve: 00:56:13 Buchanan sent the army, Johnston’s army.

GT: 00:56:15 But he hadn’t sent it yet.

Steve: 00:56:17 Yes, but there were rumors.

GT: 00:56:18 There were rumors that they were coming out.

Steve: 00:56:19 But they also had a Parley Pratt being murdered. So, you have this stuff. For some reason the Mormons got it. Robert Briggs, a lawyer in southern California, called it the fog of war. That was something Robert McNamara talked about the Vietnam War, why the atrocities happened. The fog of war blinded people.

Steve: 00:56:40 For whatever reason, they went after these folks for a three-day siege down there in the Mountain Meadows, killed all the adults except for some children they saved. Then they kind of hid the story about it.

GT: 00:56:53 Because as I recall, let’s talk a little bit more about the massacre, and especially Lee’s involvement. So basically, what happened as I understand it, I’m still trying to get Rick Turley to get on here and we’re having a little trouble there. But at any rate, so the Fancher Party is coming down. They’re kind of like these street preachers that are just being really taunting, according to the Mormons.

Steve: 00:57:18 Yeah. Plus, the fact with the onset of the army, they weren’t getting supplies from the Mormons who are not going to help you because we’ve got to support ourselves.

GT: 00:57:25 Because Brigham had said, “We need all the supplies. We’re not going to sell any to immigrants.”

Steve: 00:57:30 So right off the bat. Again, there’s a butting of the heads.

GT: 00:57:32 And the immigrants needed it, in order to get to California.

Steve: 00:57:34 Yeah.

GT: 00:57:35 And so yeah. So, there was some issues that are going on and as I recall, Brigham had told everybody, “Don’t sell to any emigrants, period.” And so, the Fancher Party, in the worst timing possible, comes during this very tense time, [and] tries to buy some supplies. The Mormons won’t sell supplies. And so, they were pretty ticked off about that.

Steve: 00:58:01 And for whatever reason, they got their at Mountain Meadows. They were surrounded.

GT: 00:58:05 And Lee was an Indian agent, right? Wasn’t he the Indian agent?

Steve: 00:58:07 Yes.

GT: 00:58:07 So he was kind of in charge of talking to the Indians. Like that was actually a government position. Is that right?

Steve: 00:58:15 Yes.

GT: 00:58:16 So I guess this is where it gets really confusing because, you know, it’s kind of a “he said, he said” sort of a thing where, you’ve got–the Fanchers aren’t here to speak for themselves.

Steve: 00:58:32 Right.

GT: 00:58:32 But at any rate, so it seems like Lee had talked to the Indians and said, “Hey, if you want to attack this Fancher Party, you’re welcome to it. Take all their stuff.” Because we were ticked off about them. So, the Indians, as I understand it, tried to attack the Fancher Party. The Fancher party circled their wagons, and basically fought off the attack. And so, what happened next?

Steve: 00:59:03 Well again, I can talk for years on it and I see this bookcase here is all Mountain Meadows. They went there with the idea we’re going to help these people but turned on them. Again, what was going through their minds? I don’t know why they would do that.

Steve: 00:59:22 The whole argument that seems to be, how much were the church leaders in Salt Lake involved with ordering this? Was this a thing that these saints in that area did on their own? We know that after they had these people surrounded, a rider was sent to Salt Lake: “Brigham what she would we do?”

Steve: 00:59:42 He sends Haslam back and says “Leave them alone.” By that time, it was all done.

GT: 00:59:46 Yeah. Because there was no telegraph back in the day. In fact, the telegraph–Brigham Young put in the telegraph so they wouldn’t have these communication problems. But yeah, so a rider goes from basically was it Cedar City or St. George?

Steve: 01:00:00 Cedar City.

GT: 01:00:00 And he goes to ask Brigham what to do. He comes back, and the settlers are already dead.

Steve: 01:00:07 Yeah.

GT: 01:00:07 So as I understand it from what I understand what the Mountain Meadows Massacre, there’s a lot of tensions going on. John D. Lee kind of spurs the Indians to attack, says it’s going to be an easy target, but it’s not an easy target. And so, they surround themselves. So, John D. Lee and William Dame and Klingensmith and Higbee, they’re kind of the leaders of this whole thing. So, they come out and they say, “Well, if you’ll turn over your weapons we will save you from the Indians.”

Steve: 01:00:39 Yeah.

GT: 01:00:40 So as I understand it, every Mormon man had a gun. [Each Mormon] was walking each man from the Fancher Party out. And then the women and children were kind of in the back and somebody gave a signal. Was it Lee that gave the signal?

Steve: 01:01:01 I can’t remember.

GT: 01:01:02 There was something to the effect of “Do your duty,” and then every Mormon man turned to the Fancher [Party] and shot and killed him. And then they left the women and children to be attacked by the Indians.

Steve: 01:01:12 Yeah. Again, you’ve got so many different stories and the fact is I think they realized, whoops. Because when they reported back to Brigham in Salt Lake, what happened is not what they actually did. You know, they, they kind of lied to Brigham.

GT: 01:01:27 Because Lee was one of the people that went to Brigham and told him what happened. But he lied about it.

Steve: 01:01:36 Yeah. One of the interesting things is that supposedly the church or the church leaders trying to hide this. But I saw an article in New York Times two months later, before the end of the year, were talking about this massacre of white people done in southern Utah. I mean, it’s not like we have instant news today. But it was very quick when this started going around and when the government comes and then they to look into it. And again, the Johnston’s army there and all the government investigation. Here comes Mountain Meadows in the middle of it. Now of course, you know Brigham kind of telling John D. Lee to take off and hide because they were trying to find him. And of course, it was 20 years later when they [try him.]

GT: 01:02:20 Ok, let’s make sure we’ve got those details there. So, Lee participates in the massacre. Of course, he wasn’t the only person that was in the massacre.

Steve: 01:02:27 He was a major player, but he was not the lead in this whole [fiasco.]

GT: 01:02:31 He was not the lead. I guess there’s a dispute as to whether he was the one that issued the order, “Do your duty,” as the order [to kill] supposedly, or not. So, there’s, a lot of dispute as to who actually said that, and you know, a lot of controversy.

Steve: 01:02:48 Like I said, we could spend the next 20 years about it. Like I said, and we have various parties because the whole issue really is not that there was an atrocity, but what does Salt Lake know about it?

GT: 01:02:58 Right.

Steve: 01:02:58 Did they order it?

GT: 01:02:59 And that’s the new book coming out with Richard Turley and Barbara Jones-Brown.

Steve: 01:03:04 Of course, we have our friend Will Bagley, who is promoting one view of it, who will go to his grave promoting that idea. Others how do you protect? And the fact is that there were so many things. My old professor at Weber State, Gene Sessions says, well, the church leaders didn’t order it, but they did a good job trying to cover it up when they found out what was going on.

Steve: 01:03:25 Plus the fact that you’ve got the army coming down and then I go back to what Rick said, the fog of war. When you have all this stuff going on, you don’t know what’s going on. When you see what happens with Johnston’s Army, they [the Saints] were ready to burn down Salt Lake and head to the mountains and, we did it before. We will move again, and that’s when they {U.S. Army} went down to Camp Floyd and settled outside of Salt Lake so they wouldn’t have those problems. There was a very high war-fighting attitude going on, or fear there. And right in the middle of it, here you have Mountain Meadows, which does not go over well with Mormons out there, just killing people left and right. And we had other instances of individuals being killed: the Gunnison thing to all the parishes. All this stuff is that there’s this western activity going on of killing people.

GT: 01:04:15 [There] was a lot of vigilante justice out here.

Steve: 01:04:19 Oh yeah. And so again, that’s not my expertise other than the one document.

GT: 01:04:25 Ok, let’s just tell this for a second and then we’ll get to that where your expertise is. But okay. So, at any rate, as the story goes, at least as I understand it, Lee, after the massacre goes up to Brigham Young, lied about it, lies about the whole thing, blames it all on the Indians. He says we had nothing to do with it.

Steve: 01:04:46 And in his diary, he says, because people were saying in the newspapers from back east that Brigham Young knew. He said, “Brigham knew nothing about it until I told him.” That’s in his diaries, you know.

GT: 01:04:57 Oh really?

Steve: 01:04:58 “So he didn’t know anything until I told him.”

GT: 01:05:00 Okay. So, he was sent up to tell, “Hey, all these people died, but we had nothing to do with it.”

Steve: 01:05:05 The Indians, yes.

GT: 01:05:06 It was all the Indians. He blamed the Indians for the whole thing.

Steve: 01:05:08 Yeah.

GT: 01:05:10 So at any rate, Brigham, at least as we understand it, the best we can. Now Will Bagley disagrees. He thinks Brigham was in on the whole thing. But, so he lies about it. And so, Brigham is a little bit worried and tries to protect John D. Lee and sends him to Arizona. I think you were talking about Lee’s Ferry, right? To kind of hide him basically.

Steve: 01:05:40 Yeah.

GT: 01:05:41 So can you talk a little bit about Lee’s Ferry then?

Steve: 01:05:43 Okay, well, Lee’s Ferry a little outpost near the Colorado River. It takes a couple miles drive in off the major highway. It’s an old rock fort. Lee was only there a couple of years. North of that is a little farming area called Lonely Dell, which is a very nice little thing. But Lee wasn’t there that long, but it got his name because this was where they would come across the river, the Colorado River because it winds down through that section of the state. But he wasn’t there that long. Again, it was just one of the many places. He lived up in Parowan. I think John D. Lee is buried in Parowan[3] and so he would kind of go out until it finally got to a point where somebody had to be tried and he became the one. Not that he was innocent, but because the others kind of got off on it and he was the one that was found guilty.

GT: 01:06:39 When was the trial? Do you know?

Steve: 01:06:41 Oh, 1875 or ’76.

GT: 01:06:44 So the massacre occurred in 1857.

Steve: 01:06:47 Twenty years later.

GT: 01:06:48 It’s about 20 years later that the trial actually happens.

Steve: 01:06:51 They had one [trial where] he was acquitted. Then they did another one where he was found guilty.

GT: 01:06:54 Yeah. So, from what I understand, because I’ve got some of those [books.] If you want to pull out those Mountain Meadows Massacre books. Believe it or not, I’ve actually read those. Well go ahead and show those to the camera. This is the Collected Legal Papers. And so that’s volume one. And then we’ve got volume two, which is the Trial and Aftermath. So, these are raw documents. Now I know, because I went to the book signing. In fact, I think I saw you at that one. And [the authors are] Richard Turley, Janiece Johnson and LuJean Carruth. LuJean is fantastic because she transcribed a lot of these court records. I know one of the things that Richard Turley said was everybody thinks they know about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but nobody had ever actually transcribed the record. One of the things that he was finding was you needed to get original source documents and a lot of these were in shorthand as so LuJean is the one who put those together. I actually talked to LuJean and I asked her if she would be interviewed and she said no because she said she was almost getting post-traumatic stress disorder because the trial notes were so graphic, and this was such a horrible atrocity. She just didn’t feel comfortable talking about that, but it really was a tremendous tragedy. But Richard and Janiece I know were just saying before we can really tell the story, we have to have original source documents. So that’s what those two volumes are. So, they’re original. There’s no narrative in them. And so, I’ve read through them, but I’m waiting for the next book.

Steve: 01:08:46 Yes, the one that has been taking all of these years.

GT: 01:08:47 And so, do you have his other book, Richard’s other book?

Steve: 01:08:51 Oh yeah. Massacre at Mountain Meadows. This is the first one.

GT: 01:08:56 So that ends basically at the massacre. And that’s a fantastic book too. Let’s see Ron Walker, …

Steve: 01:09:05 Glen Leonard, and Richard Turley [are the authors.]

GT: 01:09:07 Yeah. So, they put that one together and so they basically stopped at the massacre. And so, the next book is supposed to be about the cover-up. And how much did Brigham know, and when did you know it?

Steve: 01:09:19 And again, it’s one of those things. I have a list of the 10 biggest controversies in Mormon history. First one is of course polygamy, as does everybody else. As you go down the list, Mountain Meadows is one of the controversies. Because even after 150-some-odd years, it is still a major topic. People always bring it up. Mark Hofmann’s on the top 10 list.

GT: 01:09:43 Well, and Hofmann has some stuff to do with that. We’ll get into that in a minute.

Steve: 01:09:46 But yeah, it’s just the fact that it’s interesting how you’re talking about the western U.S. in the 1800s. One of the classic ones I have is we know about Billy the Kid and all these cowboys, Jesse James and all that. And yet the one person who probably killed more than all of them combined was Porter Rockwell. At least that’s what the claim is. Porter Rockwell killed more people than Billy the Kid, Jesse James and all these other outlaws back at a time. In fact, he was claimed to have killed somebody two years after he actually died. It’s one of the myths on him. It’s just, there’s a line and George told me to give this line. Okay, so I’m going to do it now.

GT: 01:10:30 George Throckmorton.

Steve: 01:10:32 Throckmorton. When we’ve given lectures and discussions, we quote a line from one movie and if anybody, whatever you hear what I say today, this is it. It was a movie that came out in I think 1950s or early 1960s called “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.” John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, Lee Marvin. And it’s a story about Jimmy Stewart who comes back to this old town in some western state to bury his friend John Wayne, who had died. Well, his notoriety came because when he showed up in this town, he was a lawyer and he’s credited with killing the outlaw, Liberty Valance played by Lee Marvin and beautifully done. He’s evil. He’s given credit with killing this guy because he was a bad guy.

Steve: 01:11:17 Eventually he goes on to be the governor of this new state, senator and ambassador, and as the editor of the paper says, “With a snap your fingers, you could be the next vice president of the United States.” So, when he and his wife show up, wife had to be an old girlfriend of John Wayne in the movie, shows up for the funeral, the editor of the paper says, “Well, we want to find out the true story of what’s going on here because you’re a senator.” Boy, this is big news. Well he tells him the story, but what he tells them at the end is that when they rehearsed the scene where he shoots Liberty Valance, he didn’t shoot Liberty Valance. It was John Wayne in an alleyway who shoots and kills Liberty Valance. But yet Jimmy Stewart gets the credit, becomes this famous person.

Steve: 01:12:04 And John Wayne’s just this little farmer. So that’s who this guy is. This guy we came to bury, his friend. Well, here’s the reporter, writing all this stuff down. So, when he gets done with storytelling, “I’m not the guy that did it,” the editor takes the notes, tears them up, throws the notes in the fire.

Steve: 01:12:19 “Oh, you’re not going to use that story?”

Steve: 01:12:22 He says, “No,” and here’s the line. “This is the west, sir. When the legend become fact, print the legend.”

Steve: 01:12:32 That is very productive in Mormon history and history altogether, where the legend is more important than the actual facts. And I’ve seen that with a lot of things of history and we get into Hofmann and all that. But that’s just a great line and I always remember that when I hear stories, whether it’s Mormon history or American history. I mean George Washington didn’t stand up in the boat going across the Delaware?

Steve: 01:13:01 Of course not, no. Did he cut down the cherry tree? We don’t know. But sometimes history is built that way. The Western novels of the 1800s, you know, are not that way. I read of stories about Wyatt Earp. [He] was never shot, never injured or anything, great career as a lawman. But half the stuff wasn’t true. But I think that’s a problem we have when we don’t try to find the truth. We have it today in politics, fake news, you know? Did they really say that? Did they really mean it, you know? And that’s the sad aspect of our society and our culture and our humanity because we want to believe things that aren’t true. And I share that with a lot of people say, “Why you believe in the Book of Mormon?” Oh, well, you know, now we are going, going crazy on it. But, it’s just one of those things that happens with history.

What is the Dead Lee Scroll?Introduction

A lead scroll was found at Lee’s Ferry in Arizona. Was it a long-lost admission of guilt from the only person convicted of participating in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, John D. Lee? Steve Mayfield will tell us more about it and attempts to authenticate it. Check out our conversation…

GT: 01:13:57 All right, well I wanted to lay that foundation of John D. Lee, because one of the things you are an expert on is something that to be perfectly honest, I had never heard of it until you mentioned it to me, which was the Dead Lee Scroll. So tell us about the Dead Lee Scroll.

Steve: 01:14:15 First of all, I want to do a disclaimer here. I don’t consider myself an expert, Hofmann expert. It’s been applied to me. I kind of tag my wagon onto George Throckmorton, who you interviewed. He’s been kind enough to include me in stuff. I’ve assisted him in some things. Well, one of the documents or artifacts that came up in 2002 was a lead plate they found down in Lee’s Ferry and it’s been given the nickname of Dead Lee Scroll. Will Bagley gave it that name. It’s a piece of lead. [It’s] very thin. So, it’s not the hardest thing. The plate has an inscription written by John D. Lee suggesting Brigham Young and George A. Smith, who was an apostle back at that time, were the ones…

GT: 01:14:57 St. George is actually named after him.

Steve: 01:15:01 Yes, a cousin of Joseph Smith. [Brigham] did authorize the Mountain Meadows [Massacre]. Well, right during the [2002] Olympics, they find this artifact in Lee’s Ferry. Now this fort was rundown. It was locked up. You couldn’t just walk in and do it and it was dirty and filthy. So, this gentleman named Al Malmquist who is a school teacher in that area at the time, but also on his off time, he was a park ranger for the National Park Service. He was the interpreter, which is a kind of a historian down there. He had a three-year contract with two years he’d get paid but one year he wouldn’t. But he could do voluntary things like at Lee’s Ferry or at Lonely Dell, cleaning the place up and be covered by workman’s comp[ensation.]

Steve: 01:15:45 Well, he’s in their cleanup because they had dirt up to here and bat droppings and rat droppings. So, he is in there cleaning. And all of the sudden he come across this thing rolled up. He opens it comes up and starts reading John D. Lee. Whoa! That has something to do with it. So, he cleans it off and they look at and they come up, hey, is this a confession? Is just some document that points out to it. Well, of course, boom, everybody loves it. Well, March of 2002, the archeologist for the Park Service, she’d taken it to Phoenix and showed it to Bill Flynn who worked with George Throckmorton on the Hofmann documents. Bill Flynn’s not LDS. Then she brings up to Salt Lake to George Throckmorton who was my boss at the time in Salt Lake Police crime lab. And so, he examined it, taking pictures of it and everything. And of course, the fun part of it, he knew very well I wanted to see it and be there, but he [said], “I can’t let you see it. You’ve got to sit.” So, I’m just anxiously going for it and finally he said, “Oh, you can come and see it.” And he asked the lady, “Can he see it?”

Steve: 01:16:44 “Oh yeah, he could’ve been here all the time.”

Steve: 01:16:46 And George is just laughing. He’s laughing at me because he didn’t [let me see it.] But then the next year in 2003, George and I took a trip down to Lee’s Ferry to do an examination of the scene, look at the scroll again, and kind of look at the overall environment of Lee’s Ferry. Again, with Al Malmquist there, the fort is locked up, but he has the keys. He’s the man with the keys so we could actually go in and I took photos and everything. And, the examination that he came back with, he and Bill Flynn says this is a forgery. It’s a bad forgery. The spelling’s bad and the names are spelled wrong. Even how he inscribed his name was printed because it wasn’t cursive, it was printed. The print isn’t even the same.

GT: 01:17:31 Wouldn’t it be hard to do cursive on lead?

Steve: 01:17:35 Yeah, it might be. But John D. Lee did a lot of printing. There is a rock formation down there in Arizona on House Rock. We call it House Rock. We call it Singers Rock because the pioneers going through there would graffiti up there. They would carve their names in the thing up there. You have to go off the main road. It’s kind of hard to find. But again, it’s nice to have the Park Service guy lead it. Well John D. Lee inscribed his name in it and very distinct.

GT: 01:18:05 Really. Is this down by Moab kind of or not?

Steve: 01:18:05 No, this is down along the Arizona Strip, right? I think it is still in Arizona.

GT: 01:18:05 The Arizona strip between Utah and Nevada?

Steve: 01:18:05 Yeah, it’s on the Utah side, but it’s a couple of hours drive from Page, [Arizona.]

GT: 01:18:20 Okay.

Steve: 01:18:21 But it’s to the west. You compare that with how he wrote his name on the scroll. It’s completely different. What George does he take various examples? Here’s, here’s how John D. Lee did the rock formation. Here’s how he did it in his diary. Here’s how I did it in another letter. And then you’ve get the fourth one is what’s on the scroll. And you can tell three of them are the same. One is not the same.

GT: 01:18:44 Well the signature clearly looks like a forgery on the scroll?

Steve: 01:18:48 Yeah. Everything was bad about it. Some young man, I can’t remember. I can’t remember his name, Bunting, I think. He did an examination and said, “Well, they could be an actual lead plate from that time period, the 1850s, or 1860s, whenever, I can’t remember the date on it, but we found out that a lot of the major lead was manufactured down in Arkansas and Missouri on the borderline, but he wasn’t sure.

Steve: 01:19:18 It might’ve been a new. He left the door open and saying it might have been recent manufactured, this lead thing, but we don’t know. So, it might have been a legitimate piece of lead.

GT: 01:19:29 Let me make sure. I’m unclear on that. So, you’re saying that back in 1870, let’s say approximate year, that the lead could have come from Arkansas?

Steve: 01:19:37 Yeah.

GT: 01:19:37 Or it could be a modern manufacturing.

Steve: 01:19:41 [Yes,] but majority of the lead was manufactured in that area.

GT: 01:19:44 Even in modern times?

Steve: 01:19:47 Yes.

GT: 01:19:47 Is something that he would have? I mean if John D. Lee had made this, it’s not like he just dug a bunch of lead out of the ground and made a lead plate.

Steve: 01:19:55 Yes, they would have had it. Now there’s a lot of stories about it. Number one, well he didn’t have enough paper to write something. He had plenty of things on his diaries and letters and things. In fact, somebody looked at his diaries where besides writing, he’s writing down the sides and around it, you know he’s using the paper the best he can, and he had enough paper to write diaries and journals and letters and things like that.

Steve: 01:20:16 The idea that has been presented by Will Bagley, “Well this is a very popular thing to do is write on a lead plate.” But I can’t find any other example other than this one.

GT: 01:20:24 This is the only example of a lead plate.

Steve: 01:20:26 That I can think of other than when you look on the Internet, it says gold plates of the Nephites, you know. But we wanted to see if somebody in the western United States during that time period had actually done that; written on a piece of lead, piece of metal that we can compare. We still can’t find one.

GT: 01:20:41 This is the only one that exists.

Steve: 01:20:44 Yeah.

GT: 01:20:45 I will say this just really quickly. I was in Sandra Tanner‘s Bookstore and she has facsimile of the golden plates that are made out of lead plates. The idea is you pick it up, it’s pretty heavy. She said gold is even heavier than the lead. So, her thing is, there’s no way Joseph could have done it.

Steve: 01:21:05 Yeah.

GT: 01:21:05 So there are some. So, if any of my readers know Sandra and want to see what a lead plate looks like, you can go to her bookstore.

Steve: 01:21:13 It’s right there in the bookstore.

GT: 01:21:13 She has one right there.

Steve: 01:21:15 So anyway, this [presents] just some major problems. Bill Flynn determined that the engraving was done with a four-sided nail, but they rarely ever existed in the American West. They had the two-sided flat nail, but the [engraving] might’ve been used with a modern-day nail.

GT: 01:21:35 Okay. So, whoever inscribed this used of four-sided nail. And in 1870ish, John D. Lee only have two sided-nails.

Steve: 01:21:45 Yeah, most likely. Now, there was a four-sided nail invented in the 1870s in France, but not in America. So, we’re dealing with something questionable. But then the idea is that, well, this lead plate has been sitting up in the log roof of Lee’s Ferry for all these years and it just kind of fell down. We found it.

Steve: 01:22:05 Well that’s not the case because at least twice in the previous 20 years before this was discovered in 2003, the Park Service took that roof down and re-varnished it to save the wood. So, it seems like it just barely got there.

GT: 01:22:18 Somebody would’ve found it.

Steve: 01:22:19 Yeah. Now in 1999, this is a couple of years before it was discovered, somebody, we found out they did an archaeological, architectural study, a big multipage thing the National Parks did. And somebody took a picture looking in to where it was. And Alan Malmquist says, “Well there it is right there in 1999 photos. There is the lead plate because that’s where I found it, and there it was. So, I’ve got that picture showing where it is. So at least by 1999, it was in the fort but didn’t come out of the roof. So, we’re assuming somebody probably just tossed it in there.

GT: 01:22:53 Tossed it in there after 1999.

Steve: 01:22:55 Or before 1999 it was tossed in there and had been sitting there because again, nobody was in the fort and you had dirt piled up here. So, it looked like an old beer can or, pop can. It was just sitting there until Al Malmquist went in and cleaned it.

GT: 01:23:10 So now was it actually rolled up like a scroll?

Steve: 01:23:11 Yeah, it was rolled up. That’s why he called it a scroll and then they laid it down.

GT: 01:23:15 So it wasn’t a flat plate, like the Golden Plates.

Steve: 01:23:16 No, no. When they brought it out it wasn’t. Yeah.

GT: 01:23:19 So somebody actually had to unroll it.

Steve: 01:23:21 Yeah. Al Malmquist unrolled it and he cleaned it off and that’s when he found it. It’s right now being housed in the vault down at the National Park Service vault in Page, Arizona. And like I said, we saw it up here. We saw it the two other times. I know that when they first had the press conference in 2002, they showed it to the press and everything.

Steve: 01:23:40 But it’s a bad forgery according to George Throckmorton. It’s bad. Now whether it has a connection with one Mark Hofmann, we don’t know. Bill Flynn says it is Hofmann-esque. Mark did work with metals, because he did some coins and some other items. It was controversial. It was Mormon-related, but that’s what we got. Now back in 2002-2003. I wrote Mark Hofmann when he was in the Point of the Mountain Prison three different times. I point blank asked him, “Mark, did you have anything to do with it?” I never got an answer from him. He doesn’t have to answer me.

GT: 01:24:18 He doesn’t respond to anybody I’ve heard.

Steve: 01:24:19 Yeah. Well a few people he has, but rarely. He has written some letters. Jack Ford, who was a reporter for the Deseret News during that time later became the spokesman for the prison and I talked to him one time. He says, “Back when he was there…”

GT: 01:24:34 There at the prison or there at the News?

Steve: 01:24:34 Yes, there at the prison, not the News. When he was the spokesman, he’d get requests from the media three or four times a month. “Can we interview Mark Hoffmann?”

Steve: 01:24:43 He’d go down and say, “Mark, this paper wants to talk to you.”

Steve: 01:24:46 He says, “No, I don’t want to talk to him.”

Steve: 01:24:48 He said, “It happens all the time, but I can’t make him talk to anybody. It’s up to him.”

Steve: 01:24:52 I’ve asked Ron Yengich, his attorney and said, “If I gave you a letter that I’ve written for him, and he won’t answer me, will you give it to him?”

Steve: 01:24:59 He says, “I’ll take it to them, but I can’t make him answer you.” And I think Ron doesn’t even think he’s as attorney other than, “Well, when Mark talks to me, I’ll give them some advice, but you know, I’m not going to make my millions off of being his attorney.” So, it’s one of those things. It’s a mystery. Is it a Hofmann? We don’t know.

GT: 01:25:16 To me it seems unlikely that it would be because the bombings were in ’85?

Steve: 01:25:21 ’85.

GT: 01:25:22 and he went to jail and ’86 or ’87?

Steve: 01:25:27 ’87. January of ’87, yes.

GT: 01:25:28 And so the earliest that we can even think that this might have gotten in there was about 1999?

Steve: 01:25:35 Well the first time we know it’s there because of this photo. It might have been there a long time.

GT: 01:25:39 So we have a photo in 1999 that was a photo of just the plates?

Steve: 01:25:43 Of the interior of Lee’s Ferry, but it’s Al Malmquist who found it says that’s it right there in that photo. So, we know at least by ’99 it was in the fort. It could have been there a lot longer.

GT: 01:25:53 Oh, okay. It could have been sitting there for 15 years.

Steve: 01:25:58 Yeah, or it might’ve just got there. I asked Shannon Flynn about it and says, well, as far as he knows, Curt Bench may have said the same thing. I can’t remember either Shannon or Curt said we don’t know of Mark ever being down in that side of the state. If we could prove that, you know, here’s a receipt from the motel and Page during that time period, you know, wouldn’t that’d be great? But we don’t. So we don’t know if he went down there. And here’s the thing, it doesn’t have to necessarily be Mark Hofmann the did it.

GT: 01:26:28 It could have been somebody else.

Steve: 01:26:29 It could have been somebody else. Mark wasn’t the first one to do forgeries. He wasn’t the one who invented it. He perfected it a long ways, but there are people, and it has been surmised, and I agree with this idea that there’s somebody out there learning from Mark Hofmann’s mistakes and they’re going to improve.

GT: 01:26:48 I mean talking with George, he’s authenticated Babe Ruth Jerseys that have been fake.

Steve: 01:26:55 Oh yeah. A lot of stuff.

GT: 01:26:58 So there’s a lot of forgers out there.

Steve: 01:26:59 Yeah. I just say that Mark improved. He studied up on it. He read about it and improved on that. But he got to a point where he got sloppy too. But people wanted so bad to believe what he had was real, they would overlook stuff. As Dean Jessee told George one time, why would anybody want to forge a document?

Steve: 01:27:20 Well, another movie quote, another movie quote. Why would Mark want to do forgery? Why? A line from Smokey and the Bandit. Burt Reynolds is talking to his friend about why we’re going from Atlanta, Georgia, to Texas to bring some beer back. Why are we doing this? He says, “Oh, for the all-American life, for the money, for the glory and for the fun, but mostly for the money.” That’s Mark Hofmann.

Steve: 01:27:49 You read his story. It was glory because for five to six years there, he was a hero. He was the greatest thing in the Mormon history community. He was getting the press nationwide, worldwide. He admits it was fun fooling people. “I loved it. I love fooling people.” And the money was good except the fact that Mark had a problem. He didn’t know how to finance himself well. He spent money he didn’t have. That’s why he was borrowing money and bouncing checks all the time and that was his mistake. If Mark had stayed away from the controversial stuff and just said, “Well, here’s an autograph by Joseph Smith or Brigham Young,” if he kept doing that, he would still be doing it today. But he got into the controversial stuff and he tried to go for the opus.

GT: 01:28:33 There’s a lot of money in that.

Steve: 01:28:33 Yeah, The greatest thing here, which was the Oath of the Freeman and he got to a point and I think George mentioned it, where he had the one guy from Idaho that slapped Mark, you know, “I don’t care.” And he got nervous.

GT: 01:28:46 Can you tell us his name?

Steve: 01:28:46 George never told me.

GT: 01:28:52 He wouldn’t tell me either.

Steve: 01:28:52 Because he made three Oath of the Freeman‘s. The one that is back in New York, the one in Idaho and there’s one in Brazil. And it’s like, Mark got nervous. Part of the thing too was that fact that he gave Steve Christenson some Egyptian papyrus which was legitimate. But Steve was going to bring Kenneth Rendell from New York to look at it and that’s where Mark got it from. Now he’s panicked because [he was] going to be exposed. So, he kills people. He kills Steve Christensen to get him out of the way. He plants a bomb at the Sheets home because there was that [business issue.]

GT: 01:29:29 He was trying to throw the investigators off.

Steve: 01:29:31 Throw people off on it. But then the next day, you know, so my friends killed blah, blah, blah. I’m supposed to meet with somebody and the next day, the person doesn’t show up, he takes a bomb back. It goes off on in his car up there near where is now the Conference Center. And what burned him is in fact he thought he could fool people, but this time he said, “Oh, I got in the car, shut the door, and a bomb went off on me because I just found it there.”

Steve: 01:29:54 And the ATF guy says “[No.] If that door was shut, you’d be dead, but the door was still open. It just blew you back out to save your life. So right off the bat, something’s not right here.” Then they find the bomb parts for the other two were the same ones in his one. Aha! Same bomb.

GT: 01:30:09 And George told me there were bomb components in the trunk, which I didn’t know that either.

Steve: 01:30:12 Yeah. So yeah, when the actual scientists and professionals start looking into it, you can’t fool us. You can fool the media, you can fool historians, you can fool collectors. But no, {you can’t fool professionals.] Well he goes up to the hospital and then he lawyers’ up on them. Because the nurse kind of [heard something.] So he is stuck there, but one day it was the bombs had something to do with the Christiansen/Sheets business dealings. The next day, boom! At first of course law enforcement weren’t buying into the documents, but the media was. What’s [the connection between] Steve Christensen and Mark Hofmann? It’s the Salamander Letter and so they’re pushing that idea, you know, and what happens?

Steve: 01:30:53 Then of course Dean Jessee is the one that calls George. George was working for the attorney general’s office with Wilkinson. Dean says, “Well, you’re the document guy because you’ve been trained to do forensic stuff. Can you come take an hour or so and teach me how to do this?”

Steve: 01:31:11 “No. It takes three years. I can’t do it.” But he gets interested. He starts, looking at this stuff. So, he gets permission from Wilkinson to go work for the county attorney’s office.

GT: 01:31:19 Who is Wilkinson?

Steve: 01:31:20 Ernest Wilkinson Junior.

GT: 01:31:22 Junior. Oh, okay.

Steve: 01:31:23 He was attorney general for the state for a while.

GT: 01:31:25 Oh really? So, the former BYU president’s son?

Steve: 01:31:28 [His] son was attorney general in the state back at that time.

GT: 01:31:30 Oh, I did not know that. Wow!

Steve: 01:31:33 Ernie Jr. said, okay. So, George gets hired part-time with the county attorney, before he [worked] for the became district attorney working for Ted Cannon. And then after a few months, Ernie said, “I want you back.”

Steve: 01:31:45 “Well I got a lot of work here because I got all these documents,” and [George] says, “Well I’ll quit the AG’s office. I’ll come work there.” So now he’s hired on as an investigator to work with the documents. He brings in Bill Flynn because in forensics you always sort to have two sets of eyes on things. So, he works on all these documents now. I don’t know if George told you the problem they had with the church overseeing documents.

GT: 01:32:10 Yes, he did.

Steve: 01:32:10 The fact is they had to do an end run to Elder Oaks to get permission. Did he tell you about our lunch we had with him? With Elder Oaks?

GT: 01:32:17 No, he didn’t tell me about the lunch.

Steve: 01:32:19 Every couple of months I meet with George at our local Mexican restaurant and we just talk about things. Hofmann comes up. Well back in November we met down at this restaurant and Curt Bench came with us. So now you got me, my brother, Curt. Well what do we talk about? We’re not talking about the weather, or sports, we’re talking about Hofmann. Well, George, rehearses this story about doing an end run and getting permission [with] Elder Oaks pushing through, so they can look at these documents that the church had acquired from Hoffman. Now Curt had never heard that story, so that’s a different story. After we talked about this and how great it was, I’m sitting there, and they had their back to it, but the driveway to this restaurant, this car pulls up. This lady’s driving it and this bald-headed guy steps out, turns around and says, “That’s Elder Oaks right there!”

Steve: 01:33:09 And so I kind of said, “Well, what do you know? you’re talking about it. Here’s Elder Oaks.” Well they couldn’t see him. They say, “Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.”

Steve: 01:33:15 I said, “Okay, wait until you see him come in the door?”

Steve: 01:33:17 A few moments later, here comes Elder Oaks and we all started laughing. So, my brother says “Hello.” He comes over and we introduce ourselves to them and George says, “Maybe you don’t remember me. I’m George Throckmorton. I worked on the Hofmann case.”

Steve: 01:33:29 “Oh I remember the name, I just didn’t remember the face.” So, we had a nice little talk. We kind of teased him. He says, “Well, you can sit with us.”

Steve: 01:33:35 “No, I have my wife. I got a better offer with my wife,” because he was driving, so they’d go down to sit there.

Steve: 01:33:40 It may only take 20 minutes to eat, but we spent two hours just talking. So he finally gets up and comes over. I guess maybe now it clicked what was going on. So, he’s talking and talking to us, and [gives] high compliments to George about the work you did and how, the important part. His wife is over there pulling on his sweater like, “We gotta go, gotta go.”

Steve: 01:34:02 Then Curt jumps up and says, “Well, if I bring some books to your office will you autograph it?”

Steve: 01:34:08 He said, “As long as they are books I wrote.”

Steve: 01:34:10 And he said, “Well, it’s Carthage Conspiracy.”

Steve: 01:34:12 He says, “Well, we’re not supposed to give autographs out but I can do that for you.” And so, we had a very nice conversation. It was so funny. We were talking about him. So, our ongoing joke now is every time we meet, “Did you call Elder Oaks to come have lunch with us?” You know. But it’s one of those things that once the science got involved and once he and Bill Flynn started looking at the documents, this stuff started coming out. The document do have something to do with this homicide.

Steve: 01:34:41 And then of course Ted Cannon had a sex scandal going on in the county attorney’s office. So, he has to resign. They bring in an old county attorney named David Yokum to take over. And the first thing he said is, “Clear this case off the desk. It’s going to cost too much. Plea bargain it.” And that’s what he and Bob Stott, the lead attorney on it, will plea bargain it. And of course at the same time he’s saying, besides plea bargain,” I need to cut budget. So George, you’re out of here. You’re low man on the totem pole.” So, George is out the door now after all this work, he’s done for a year or so on this stuff. So, it was kind of sad, but thank goodness because eventually he became my boss in Salt Lake Crime Lab, which is one of the highlights of my career with the 10 years I worked with him.

GT: 01:35:32 Yeah, George is great.

Steve: 01:35:32 Yeah. So, that was just [cool.]

GT: 01:35:36 I still want to, I need to set up another interview because he was talking about the Howard Hughes will.

Steve: 01:35:43 That, and his involvement in stuff. But obviously that put his name out there. A lot of people now, [hear] George Throckmorton. “I know the name, but …” And some people say, “Wasn’t he involved with Hofmann and his bombings?” Well, not with the bombings.

GT: 01:35:58 In a roundabout way.

Steve: 01:35:59 Yeah. But having George as my boss for 10 years, he and I have done some presentations like at Sunstone and so forth.

Buying the Spalding Conspiracy TheoryIntroduction

There has long been a theory that Book of Mormon was plagiarized a manuscript originally written by Solomon Spaulding. The problem with the theory is that there was never a connection between Joseph Smith and Solomon Spaulding—until Mark Hofmann came up with a document. Steve Mayfield talks about buying this Hofmann forgery. Check out our conversation…

GT: 01:36:08 So let me ask you this, jumping back to the Dead Lee Scroll. So, you mentioned two things. Number one. So, George says that’s a terrible forgery. Wouldn’t Mark Hofmann do a better-quality forgery? Isn’t that a reason to believe it is not Mark?

Steve: 01:36:24 Yes and no. Mark did some fabulous jobs on some of them. Others, he did crap. Crap. He got to a point where he was in such a rush to do it, he had one letter that was a letter that was legitimate letter in the 1700s signed “Betsy.” [It was] just a letter to the family or something. Well, he just added on “Ross” and people bought it. When you look at it, you can see the “Betsy” and the “Ross” and it’s different ink, different style, but people bought it. I owned a document that was a legitimate document that Mark used and made forgeries on it. Maybe you want to talk about that one. Because I have a copy of it sitting right here.

GT: 01:37:03 Oh right here? Well here, let me hand both of those to you. That one looks better.

Steve: 01:37:08 Yeah. These are photocopies. Right prior, maybe a year before the bombings, Mark claimed he was getting pieces from what is known as the McLellin Collection, papers that belong to William McLellin. And there’s a long story with that. Among the documents was a papyrus and a land deed that had the signatures of Solomon Spalding, Sidney Rigdon on it. Well of course the story to that is that is the fact that there was a claim that Sidney Rigdon, being in Pittsburgh, borrowed a manuscript that was written by Solomon Spalding called “Manuscript Found” or “Manuscript Story.” [He] took that Joseph Smith and that’s how they created the Book of Mormon. Even Sidney Rigdon and Joseph said, “I don’t know this Solomon Spalding. It had nothing to do with that.” And it has always been claimed they knew each other.

Steve: 01:37:57 Well, this would kind of give proof they did know each other. So, Mark has this document and he takes it to Elder Hugh Pinnock of the Council of Seventy and says, “Here’s this document. It is part of it, but I need some money, so I can buy the McLellin Collection.” So Elder Pinnock calls, I think First National Bank, because I think he was on the board of directors and says, “Give this guy a loan for $186,000.”

Steve: 01:38:23 Of course the problem with that is Mark fumbled it and couldn’t pay it back in time enough. So poor Elder Pinnock had to fork up the money to cover it. But this document, about a month later, was sold to Cosmic Aeroplane for $400 because he needed the money. He was hurting for money. Well, Cosmic Aeroplane has it. They do the investigation, George has it for a for year, examining it. He gives it back of Cosmic Aeroplane after the trial.

GT: 01:38:53 This is the land deed.

Steve: 01:38:55 Yes, the land deed.

GT: 01:38:56 This is the land deed. So, he sold it for $400,000 but he needed $186,000?

Steve: 01:38:59 No, he sold it to Cosmic for $400 but he got $186,000 on the loan by just showing it to Elder Pinnock. That was a lot of money to fork up. So, in January of 2000, the former owner of Cosmic Aeroplane sold it to Ken Sanders who used to work there. He now had his own bookstore there in Salt Lake, Ken Sanders Books. Well he had it on display and I’m just sitting there just [thinking], “Oh, oh, I love it.” But it was like $4,000 they wanted for it. Well, I had enough in a credit card, so I bought it from him.

GT: 01:39:33 Oh my goodness.

Steve: 01:39:34 In August of 2000. So, for four years I owned a Hofmann.

GT: 01:39:38 You knew it was a forgery.

Steve: 01:39:42 Yeah, Yeah. I mean he sold it as that. The minute he sold it after I bought it, I take it back to the office and show George. He showed some things on the document that only he and I know. There are certain things that a document person does, so he verified, “That’s the document, I examined it. Here’s this and this.” So, I owned it for four years, showed it at some symposium and then in 2004. I donated it to BYU, so the document is down at BYU. It was starting to crumble apart. Now the significance of the document is the fact–here’s a photocopy of it. The fact that you see that there’s names here, if I do it right.

GT: 01:40:19 Well actually the other one’s easier to read, plus it is in color.

Steve: 01:40:23 Here we have Sidney Rigdon and over here is Solomon Spalding. It is the Connecticut land deed in which a gentleman by the name of Jesse York, and this is back in Connecticut, is selling some of his land to Asa Spalding. Okay. No, wait a minute. Asa Spalding is selling some land to his wife’s cousin, Jesse York. The problem you have with the document is that Mark made some changes besides adding those two names, the original date up here is not 1822, but it’s 1792. So, Mark changed that.

GT: 01:41:05 And you can see that.

Steve: 01:41:05 The eight, yeah.

GT: 01:41:06 it looks totally scratched out, wrong.

Steve: 01:41:08 And then he also wrote it at the top 1822.

GT: 01:41:12 I don’t know if we’re going to be able to see that on the video.

Steve: 01:41:13 It’s at the very top. Now on the side down here, the original had some squirrely things down here, but he apparently cut it out for some reason. This is a legitimate land deed from 1792. These other signatures were legit. The writing is legit, but he added the names, changed the date.

GT: 01:41:33 So he added the names Solomon Spaulding.

Steve: 01:41:34 Yeah. And Sidney Rigdon and change the dates. So anyway, like I said this was the one that he was able to get money from the bank and that was controversial. Now the fun part is after I bought it, I was making photocopies of it and on the back of the thing, usually on the back when they fold up, there was a section where they have some writing when they fold away. Well, I did it in a dark coloring and you see here the very back in the middle, there’s some writing.

GT: 01:42:06 You’ll have to read it. It’s very hard to see.

Steve: 01:42:07 It’s very faint, but even on the original you can’t see it until you darken it up and it says deed from Asa Spalding to Jesse York, 1792. Mark missed it. He didn’t see it in the back, but it’s like nobody turns the page over, and you couldn’t actually see it with your naked eye until I darkened it up. So, he missed it. It was a legitimate document, but he just made some changes on it and that that’s what he did with the Betsy Ross and he probably did others. Now we’ve had, over the years since he’s gone to prison, some documents. There was one that was a marriage certificate out of Kirtland, signed by Joseph Smith for a Marshall Brewster and a Chloe Smith. Again, my friend Craig Foster who works at the Family History Library checked the actual records of the Kirtland marriage book and there was a Chloe Smith and Marshall Brewster married by Joseph Smith. Now, nothing significant about it except the fact that this document we knew came from Hofmann. But I’m thinking back to the time before his forgeries were uncovered, what if I was a descendant of these people? How much money would I be willing to pay to have the actual document: marriage certificate?

Steve: 01:43:17 I’d probably be begging all my relatives, we need to have that certificate. That would make him a lot of money. And we all noticed on this page or these marriages out a Kirtland, four or five different people. You wonder, did he just do the one or did make copies for everybody? So, all he did was just [make copies.] He was good to the point that he could do Joseph’s autograph. And he was able to age ink, do something to the paper.

Steve: 01:43:40 Now here’s the thing, a lot of his forgeries, he would do things to the paper. He’d kind of rip them, have rips in them, or water stains on them or darken them or something like that. Because just to your idea that all old documents are deteriorating and their crummy. But not necessarily. Down at the archives at BYU, I was shown some of the original handwriting of the sections of the D&C (Doctrine and Covenants.) And those papers are preserved. The papers are turning brown, but perfect. No cuts, no water stains, nothing on them. The Whitney family did a good job of taking care of these documents. So not all old documents are beat up. But Mark kind of thought that’s what they would look like and people bought into it because they were not sophisticated enough to read them.

GT: 01:44:27 If they look old then yeah.

Steve: 01:44:28 So, anyway, for four years, I had a good time with that one. And so those were the involvement. Now there is another one that is probably the last. Although I think the people working on the Joseph Smith Papers last couple of years had one in their collection that they said most likely a Hofmann. I can’t remember.

GT: 01:44:52 Now, let me just back up. I’m sorry to keep going back to the Dead Lee Scroll. Because one of the things you mentioned before we turned the camera on was that both Will Bagley and Richard Turley had used the Dead Lee Scroll?

Steve: 01:45:05 Yes.

GT: 01:45:06 Is that in this book here?

Steve: 01:45:08 I think so. And I can’t remember which one of Will. But yeah, Will had two books. One, he just makes a footnote on it. Another book he takes this one document. What it is is a typed….

GT: 01:45:20 So wait a minute. If this wasn’t discovered until you said 2002, so it was believed legitimate for a while?

Steve: 01:45:28 It wasn’t this document. It was.

GT: 01:45:29 No, no, no. I’m talking about the scroll.

Steve: 01:45:30 Okay. Yeah.

GT: 01:45:31 So was the scroll used in the Turley book?

Steve: 01:45:34 No, no, no, no, no.

GT: 01:45:35 Oh, I misunderstood that.

Steve: 01:45:36 Okay. The document we’re talking about is this affidavit by–I’ve forgotten his name. A young man, Edwards I think his name was. He was 15 and he was at Mountain Meadows.

GT: 01:45:52 Oh. So, this is a different story.

Steve: 01:45:55 Yes, a different document altogether. This young man was there in 1926. He’s been a bishop. He writes an affidavit, supposedly a typed affidavit, has it signed. He signed it and the judge signed it, talking about being there at Mountain Meadows, nothing sensational, other than he’s the last living survivor of Mountain Meadows.

GT: 01:46:18 On the Mormon side.

Steve: 01:46:19 Yeah. So now you have the Turley book referencing it in a footnote. Will Bagley referenced it.

GT: 01:46:29 So what did, what did the document actually say? Why? Why was it important?

Steve: 01:46:32 It says, “I was there. This is what happened.” Blah, blah blah. It doesn’t point the finger at anybody, but it’s sort of an innocuous document, but it just says he was there. And he literally was. We knew he was there. Well, when this and one of the books Will Bagley quotes the whole letter. Well, when they did a book review on that book, a lady up in Seattle named Polly Aird, independent historian said, “You better think twice about that one,” because she knew the people in the state archives where the document was being held, saying that they had gotten this document from a guy named Lynn Jacobs who was one of Mark’s associates back during this time.

Steve: 01:47:12 Lynn has since passed away. Well, both the state archives in the church says, I think we had looked into it. Prior to this, George Throckmorton had spent some time with the archival Staff at the Church Historians’ department teaching some fundamentals about forensic document examination. Well timing was right, because now they bring this up there. George comes down and they have got these archivists up there, the people work with the documents and looked at it. Where they figured that they saw that this document, which was a letterhead of this particular judge, was a legitimate letterhead, piece of paper, but they saw that the signatures were assigned, were, traced is a technique of putting the paper on top of illusion and then trying to copy it. Well, the coup de Gras, the whole thing is they take this document back to New York to a guy named Peter Tytell in the forensic document business.

Steve: 01:48:07 He’s the typewriter guy. He does all that work on it. His father sold typewriters and was a typewriter repairman. So, he transferred that over to his own education. So, you have a document that has type writing. He looks at it. Well, he determined, now this letter, this document was supposedly done in 1926 well he found out the typewriter used on this document was a 1950 Royal typewriter. So, it’s like yeah, and the fact that, then also Brent Ashworth who was one of Mark Hofmann’s victim said “I sold or gave those letterheads to Mark Hofmann and if there’d been anything in Mountain Meadows, I would never have given anything to him. So, we kind of make that connection. It went from Brent to Mark.

GT: 01:48:54 So Brent gave him some blank paper with letterhead.

Steve: 01:48:55 Yeah.

GT: 01:48:56 Mark types it up on a 1950 typewriter.

Steve: 01:49:00 Yeah, gives it to Lynn who then donates it to the state archives.

GT: 01:49:05 Which Richard Turley and Will Bagley used.

Steve: 01:49:07 Yeah, Quote from.

GT: 01:49:09 What a mess!

Steve: 01:49:12 What it also says is that there are a lot of documents out there. Now I think 1988 or around that time, Mark was pulled out of his cell and being interviewed because there had been stories that he had made–was trying to hire somebody to bump off some people, like one of the people on the parole board and George Throckmorton, so interviewing them. So, they did a cell search, and they came up with a one sheet, yellow prison paper where he wrote a book on the top, Mormons who I have forged, and on the other side, famous Americana I have forged. Well you look at these names, there’s a couple of names on there that we don’t have documents for. We don’t have a forgery, or anything related to that. So, there are probably documents that are still out there that Mark Hofmann did that they just haven’t shown up.

Steve: 01:49:59 So it behooves that collectors have documents whether libraries or something, need to think twice. You need to be careful. Brent Ashworth talks about the Emily Dickinson poem. There was a poem that one of the major document auction houses had, that was a Hofmann forgery. It was a poem and they struggle with it. They don’t want to admit it. And Brent Ashworth was the one that brought it to their attention that it was Hofmann forgery. And again, something that comes up after he’s gone to prison, everything, but they come. They find these things. In fact, there was a book written on that, the Poet and the Murderer was about that particular document. And so the intrigue is still out there and like I said, we need to not be so excited when some document [shows up], and there’s probably–this is how Mark played the game because we knew that people had documents, material than an institution didn’t have.

Steve: 01:51:03 His claim was, “Well, I did my backwards genealogy. Instead of going back, I went forward and found the great grandson of some famous Mormon, i.e. Bullock. And I went to the family and said, “I can help you with this. And Oh, here comes Joseph Smith III blessing from the Bullock family up in Coalville, [Utah.] But don’t bother these people. They want me to be the go-between. They don’t want to be bothered. They don’t want to be hassled.”

Steve: 01:51:27 “Okay.”

Steve: 01:51:28 And here’s this document, which again, each document has their own history and story because a couple of years back, the kindness of Brent Ashworth, we released at a Sunstone Symposium, a tape recording that Mark made back in the early 1980s when he had this Joseph Smith, III blessing, calling the Community Christ, or Reorganized Church saying, “I got this document,” where he’s calling for the church historian and he reads it to them and it’s intriguing tape recording that he did.

Steve: 01:52:02 And they’re like, “Wow.”

Steve: 01:52:03 And so great story. “I got this. It relates to you,” blah, blah blah. “I want to trade it for a Book of Commandments.”

Steve: 01:52:10 “Yeah, right.”

Steve: 01:52:11 And they want it. So, they plan on coming out the next week to Salt Lake to do it. Well before they got there, he goes down to the LDS church in Salt Lake and trades it with them.

Steve: 01:52:20 So here comes the Community to Christ folk. “What the heck’s going on here? You double-dealed on us.” So, there was a story on that one. But this tape recording is great. Maybe you want to do a program with just playing that tape because an hour tape where you hear him playing this little game. He is just bringing these people in and they’re buying this whole thing. The actual document where Joseph was blessing his son to be his successor, which was for a long time, part of their policy.

Steve: 01:52:49 Interesting story with that. 1982 Mormon History Association meeting in Ogden. They had a particular session in the LDS Institute chapel to talk about the blessing. Mark was up there. It was the one time I ever met him. I shook his hand and whatever, if you can call that meeting him. Well, as he’s telling this story, “Oh, I did this and this and that.”

Steve: 01:53:13 Out in the audience was Richard Howard, who at the time was the church historian for the RLDS church who had all these dealings. Well, he was not very discreet in his comment. Every time Mark would make a comment, I won’t use the full word, but he was going BS, BS, BS. But he used the full word every time Mark said something, and people were out there just chuckling. But they did the smart thing because actually they took the document. They had it authenticated by good professional people said it’s authentic. But the dealings was the fact he double-dealed on them. And he said, “We’ll never deal with this man again,” which saved them a lot of the problems.

Steve: 01:53:47 It is too bad. This stuff wasn’t passed on, but part of the problem too with people that he dealt with were willing to keep secrets. “Don’t tell them where you got it from.” In fact, you had the Salamander Letter that he claimed he gave it to Lynn Jacobs, but Lynn claimed he got it. “I’ve got too many documents. Maybe you claim some.” Lynn went along with it so he could convince people to do things for him. Brent Metcalfe and I don’t blame them that they had some negative or they had some nefarious thing what they’re doing, but they were all part of this claim and you had like Shannon Flynn and Brent Metcalfe, Lynn Jacobs were the ones that dealt with him. And, I guarantee you that the police did look at these guys and see if they did anything, but they did nothing [wrong.]

GT: 01:54:33 They sure looked at Shannon. They put him in jail.

Steve: 01:54:33 That was over something else.

GT: 01:54:37 Yeah, I know.

Steve: 01:54:37 But I know because my involvement, because I was in Colorado as a deputy sheriff. I got two interviews with Bob Stott and Dick Forbes, one of the detectives on it by phone and once in office. And their dealings were asking me, and I’ve told this so it’s nothing surprising. My knowledge of Lynn Jacobs and Brent Metcalfe because they were friends of mine, what I knew about their involvement with Hofmann. They were doing their job, kind of trying to connect the dots between Mark because some people thought that he couldn’t have done this alone. One time, Sandra Tanner asked me, “I just don’t think he could have done this all alone.” Well he did, but he was able to manipulate news people, you know, and that’s the sad thing.

Steve: 01:55:25 It’s like maybe we need to communicate more often to know what’s going on. So that’s what the tragedy is that two people died. I kind of cringe when I hear people in the media or something call him “Mark Hofmann the forger.” No, he’s a murderer. Forgery is secondary to all of this. And I know that there is a documentary that’s being put together and the Facebook page on is “The Forger.” Well, okay, we look at that, but no, he’s a criminal. He’s a murderer and he’s where he needs to be and most likely he’ll die in prison.

GT: 01:56:02 Not soon enough.

Steve: 01:56:02 So no, I will predict. I will just say, you know, he’s where he should be.

GT: 01:56:11 Well Steve, I appreciate it. I appreciate you letting me spend so much time with you and any last thoughts you want to say before we go?

Steve: 01:56:20 I enjoyed the interview and I didn’t lose my cool. I hope I didn’t swear. So I look forward to it and maybe down the road more stuff comes up. And like I said, I collect this stuff not to hide it away or keep it secret but to be used by scholars and researchers and things like that. So eventually it will all go to BYU. And so look for the Mayfield Collection down there.

GT: 01:56:46 All right, will do. I appreciate you spending your time here on Gospel Tangents! Thanks a lot.

Steve: 01:56:50 Thank you. Thank you.

[1] Dr. Paul Reeve is the new president 2018-2019 for the Mormon History Association. In introducing Dr. Philip Barlow, Reeve said Barlow was a graduate of Weber State, and then commented, “Who knew such excellence could come from Weber State?”

[2] Point of the Mountain is a geographic location between Salt Lake City and Provo, near Draper, Utah.

[3] He is actually buried in Panguitch

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Some people think the Exodus story is more myth than real. How does George Potter explain it? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/gSCdnTgtgQw

Don’t miss our other conversations with George: https://gospeltangents.com/people/george-potter/

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The Bible talks about the 12 Springs of Moses for the 12 Tribes of Israel. George Potter has found them in Saudi Arabia. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/C98VYjaXF10

Don’t miss our other conversations with George: https://gospeltangents.com/people/george-potter/

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Where is the real Mt Sinai? Is it in Arabia? Most believe it is not the traditional site on the Sinai Peninsula. There are at least 13 possible sites for the real Mt Sinai. George Potter believes it is in Saudi Arabia, and gives his reasons for this. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/upjTItr7grE

Don’t miss our other conversations with George: https://gospeltangents.com/people/george-potter/

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What's the role of grace in atonement of Christ? Dr Diedre Green & Dr Eric Huntsman will weigh in. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/WrtSMaC8ox8Don’t miss our other conversations about atonement: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/atonement/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Is Gethsemane part of the atonement of Christ? Many LDS say yes, while Protestants generally say no. What do Diedre Green & Eric Huntsman say? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/b5UDmyEDQ98Don’t miss our other conversations about atonement: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/atonement/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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We're going to dive into some other atonement theories, including womanist views? Is that the same thing as feminist? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/4Zrf7wL3sbcDon’t miss our other conversations about atonement: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/atonement/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Some people object to penal substitution as a model for atonement. Why does God require the death of Jesus? Is that part of a loving or a vengeful God? Dr Diedre Green & Dr Eric Huntsman weigh in on the pros and cons of penal substitution. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/FremIKcy8vwDon’t miss our other conversations about atonement: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/atonement/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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It's Holy Week! Yesterday was Palm Sunday and we're going to talk about Christ's Atonement with Dr Diedre Green & Dr Eric Huntsman and their new book "Latter-day Perspectives on Atonement." There are various models to talk about Christ's sacrifice and we'll dive deep into that and discuss how grace ties in. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/K6r0Dph5Pa0Don’t miss our other conversations about atonement: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/atonement/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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This is a rebroadcast of our interview with Dr Terryl Givens. Back in 2022, we discussed several atonement theories in connection with Gene England, who wasn't a fan of penal substitution. With this being Holy Week, this is a good intro to atonement theology as we get ready to discuss Dr Diedre Green & Dr Eric Huntsman's book called "Latter-day Perspectives of Atonement." Why did Jesus die for us? Was he a moral teacher, or did his death substitute for our sins? Why does God require someone to die for sin? We’re going to dive into atonement theology with Dr. Terryl Givens. Were Gene England’s views of the atonement heretical? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/4lf-LUOPvnUDon’t miss our other conversations about atonement: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/atonement/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Rick held a livestream to discuss Lehi's ocean crossing & possible routes to the Promised Land for Lehi. It seems an Atlantic Crossing is much more likely than a Pacific Crossing, and we'll discuss why. Check out our conversation...

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Did you know Tunisia is one of America's oldest friends, dating back to George Washington? Eryj Ben Sassi tells more about Tunisia's diplomatic relations with America and her future plans with the Heartland Research Group. Check out our conversation...And don't forget to turn into the Livestream on Friday! We'll talk more about Philip Beale.https://youtu.be/cd257m1RUeoDon't miss our other segments with Eryj! https://gospeltangents.com/people-eryj-ben-sassitranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Tunisia has the oldest synagogue outside Israel. Does it have Book of Mormon ties? Eryj Ben Sassi discusses, Tarshish, Tunisia, & the Book of Mormon character Mulek and how he may have come to Tunisia on his way to North America. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/Rlu29qls_DQDon't miss our other segments with Eryj! https://gospeltangents.com/people-eryj-ben-sassitranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Eryj Ben Sassi is the Founder & President of Association Didon of Carthage in Tunisia. She believes that ancient Phoenicians came from North Africa to North America in 600 BC. In February she came to Washington, DC for a diplomatic reception to strengthen ties with the Heartland Research Group. We'll discuss more about her group and why she believes that. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/bGrHWlv5DysDon't miss our other segments with Eryj! https://gospeltangents.com/people-eryj-ben-sassitranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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What was discovered at Hawn's Mill? Archaeologist Paul Debarthe from the Community of Christ details musket balls, and why he refuses to find the well where 17 men at boys were buried following the massacre at Hawn's Mill. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/dakb9xavIXwtranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Rick Bennett discusses the Q&A given by Community of Christ leaders earlier this week and shares photos from some of the properties in Nauvoo sold to the LDS Church last week. He also answers viewer questions. Check out our conversation...https://youtube.com/live/2gfppMuScRItranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Has the Community of Christ moved away from the Book of Mormon? We'll ask that question to Pastor Brittany Mangelson of the Community of Christ here in Salt Lake City. We'll also talk about the new female prophet, Stassi Cramm who will be replacing Steven Veazey. Finally, we'll ask about how Brittany's conversion affected her LDS family. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/nTX2Zu9oAAMDon’t miss our other conversations with Brittany: https://gospeltangents.com/people/brittany-mangelsontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Unlike the LDS Church where unanimity is almost an article of faith, the Community of Christ has an official church position on faithful disagreement. The Church has a long history of disagreement and we'll even allude to the Milk Strippings story, where the Standing High Council ruled against Thomas Marsh, pres of the Quorum of 12 Apostles. The CoC still has this Standing High Council. (Brigham abolished it in the LDS Church.) Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/OdMdsCzmy6ADon’t miss our other conversations with Brittany: https://gospeltangents.com/people/brittany-mangelsontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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In the LDS Church it is routine to ordain teenagers to be deacons, teachers, and priests. In the Community of Christ, these roles are filled by adults. How are the roles different? We'll talk about that with Community of Christ pastor Brittany Mangelson. We'll also talk about the roles of Seventies in the two churches. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/mafpZ5fIKJEDon’t miss our other conversations with Brittany: https://gospeltangents.com/people/brittany-mangelsontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Unlike the LDS Church, the Community of Christ has open baptism from other Christian churches as long as the person was at least 8 years old at the time of baptism. We'll talk more about the move to change baptism requirements and discuss priesthood ordination. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/uBYWtBogU_ADon’t miss our other conversations with Brittany: https://gospeltangents.com/people/brittany-mangelsontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Brittany Mangelson is the Pastor for the Community of Christ in Salt Lake City. We'll discuss her conversion to Community of Christ, the difference between a pastor & a bishop, and her podcast called Project Zion. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/npZWOdCChxQDon’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/brittany-mangelsontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Rick B held a livestream video discussing the purchase of the Kirtland Temple by the LDS Church this week. Of course, there is a lot of interest in the temple. We'll talk about that and the other properties included in the transaction, including the Nauvoo properties, and several important artifactshttps://youtube.com/live/7FSCM92meOEtranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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What takeaways does David Boice have from attending more than 104 churches? The author and host of 52 Churches in 52 Weeks will tell us, and also tell us what ideas he has for a future project. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/KGzeAPw4czAtranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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What's the Difference between LDS, CoC, & Bickertonite General Conferences? Is it a week long like CoC? Every 6 months like LDS? A combination? Evangelist Josh Gehly will tell us more. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/mV7EZEW1V90Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehlytranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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I was surprised to discover that the Church of Jesus Christ is neither Trinitarian nor Godhead when it comes to the nature of God? What do they believe? Evangelist Josh Gehly gives both official and personal beliefs. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/U2xttRWHLw4Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehlytranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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What's it like to attend a Bickertonite Church service? Rick Bennett (LDS) & Josh Gehly (Bickertonite) share their experiences attending the Church of Jesus Christ. Did you know that each week, they ask the congregation if they would like to receive a blessing by laying on of hands? Find out more in our next conversation...https://youtu.be/U6c4aoMblMMDon’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehlytranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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The Church of Jesus Christ based in Monongahela, PA allows for limited female priesthood ordination of women. We'll discuss women's roles with Josh Gehly, an evangelist in the church and discuss Bickertonite Church structure. Is an Evangelist similar to the LDS calling of Seventy? We'll also discuss differences in baptismal practices. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/E_Pusr4YeHcDon’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehlytranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Josh Gehly gives a non-LDS Defense of the Book of Mormon. He is an Evangelist (what LDS would call a Seventy) of the Church of Jesus Christ based in Monongahela, PA, and shares his book, "Witnessing Miracles" which deals with a defense of the Book of Mormon. He even takes on Dan Vogel! We'll talk more about his church, and find out of this "non-Mormon" gets discriminated against just like Mormons. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/c2TefZ01AZEDon’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehlytranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Josh Gehly is an evangelist from the Church of Jesus Christ. His church dates back to the days of Sidney Rigdon and is sometimes called the Bickertonite Church. Josh has written a new book "Witnessing Miracles" that provides evidence for both the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon. We'll get acquainted with Josh and his book. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/93dvoCQIwk0Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehlytranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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We'll find out more about the backgrounds of murder victims Gus Gibbons & Steve LeSueur. Were they Nauvoo pioneers? We'll also find out that Butch Cassidy grew up in a small Utah town (Circleville), although it seems that Mormonism didn't really take with him. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/VzKpjBEeyzotranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Mauli Bonner discusses his award-winning film, "Green Flake is His Name" at various international film festivals. The film was so successful, he was able to help erect a monument to black Mormon pioneers at "This is the Place" Park. We'll discuss his future plans for both movies & monuments. Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at https://gospeltangents.comhttps://youtu.be/NFqXVasylLADon’t miss our other conversations with Mauli: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mauli-bonnertranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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We're going to dive into Utah's decade of black and Indian slavery, and I'll ask Mauli Bonner some hard questions. Should Mormons think about renaming buildings at BYU who have ties to slavery? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/vkZKWN9MAM0Don’t miss our other conversations with Mauli: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mauli-bonnertranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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As we close #BlackHistoryMonth here in February, I wanted to introduce you to an amazing Grammy Award-Winning artist and flimmaker Mauli Bonner. We'll discuss his award-winning film, "His Name is Green Flake" about the first black Mormon slave who entered the Utah Territory before even Brigham Young! Mauli is a Grammy Award-winning artist and we'll find out some of the big names he's been working with, including Katie Perry, Stevie Wonder, Gladys Knight, and Ariana Grande to name a few. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/0JdikyOm_9gDon’t miss our other conversations with Mauli: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mauli-bonnertranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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As we conclude our conversation with the first member of the Sept Six, Lynne Whitesides, I asked her about her spirutality now. It's a long way from Mormonism. We also discusses her family's reaction to her church discipline. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/QN2fSsHQj_gDon't miss our other conversations with Lynne! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk4ldrx61TI&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ7fveXlF645QDhoAUGnCyYftranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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In the final part of our conversation with Dr Michael Austin, Provost at Snow College and author of "Testimony of 2 Nations," we'll discuss Mormon Studies groups, including the history of Dialogue, MHA, JWHA, Sunstone, and other Mormon Studies organizations. We'll also discuss the history of LDS Colleges in Utah. Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at gospeltangents.com/newsletter or sign up at Patreon to hear the entire interview.https://youtu.be/0RzG2N-MPvgDon’t miss our other conversations with Michael: https://gospeltangents.com/people/michael-austintranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Some scholars have claimed that people like Nephi are unreliable narrators. That is Nephi makes himself look better than he probably was. Dr Michael Austin believes Alma was an unreliable narrator as well. We'll look further into Michael's book, "Testimony of 2 Nations." Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/zrM2uPqKKGIDon’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/michael-austintranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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There are many different ways to approach the Book of Mormon. Dr Michael Austin is Mormon Studies scholar and Provost at Snow College. In his new book, "Testimony of 2 Nations," he discusses 4 ways scholars have approached the Book of Mormon & the Bible. Does these books need to be historical to study them? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/i4gKdY1wyYwDon’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/michael-austintranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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In our final discussion with Bob Roylance, he'll discuss the kings of Tikal as another evidence of the Book of Mormon on the Yucatan. We'll also discuss a tough problem: DNA. How will Bob handle that? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/j5x5600Cuwgtranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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After having listened to Dave Butler discuss temple theology in the Book of Mormon, would a skeptic be convinced? We'll talk about that in our next conversation. Let us know what you think. I will also ask if it matters to Dave if the Book of Mormon is historical. Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at gospeltangents.com/newsletter and I'll send you the conclusion to our conversation.https://youtu.be/XTdzuXwOUt0Don’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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We're going to dive into Matthew 7 to discuss more LDS Temple theology. Dave talks about approaching the veil in Matthew 7. Does it match with the Book of Mormon? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/1oqDbbW4qXoDon’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Dave Butler continues to look at the Bible for temple texts, and says the Lord's Prayer is another example. Why does he think so? Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/_h9eT3Wy1ngDon’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Are temple oaths consistent with Matthew where Jesus said we shouldn't swear oaths? Dave Butler answers that question and discusses veiling at the temple for women, and the significance of temple clothing. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/_oULsYcD-TYDon’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Dave Butler says the Sermon on the Mount is a temple text! Are temple oaths consistent with Matthew where Jesus said we shouldn't swear oaths? Dave Butler answers that question and discusses veiling at the temple for women, and the significance of temple clothing. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/ENyEJAQbLQsDon’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/transcript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2024Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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In Denver Snuffer's book "The Second Comforter," Denver claimed he knew how to see Jesus. We also call our temples "The House of the Lord." Is it possible to see Jesus in the temple, or even outside the temple as Denver claims? Dave Butler weighs in on that. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/nwmSqygIXYgDon’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Dave Butler has written 2 books that deal with temple theology in the Book of Mormon: "Plain & Precious Things" and "The Goodness & the Mysteries." We'll get acquainted with Dave and he'll tell us that temple theology begins in verse 1 of the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/NiEJx6QmgLEDon’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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In our final conversation with Dr Matthew Bowman, we'll talk about the tensions between LDS Church leaders and BYU faculty. Is there academic freedom at BYU? Should there be more academic freedom for faculty if BYU wants to become the Harvard of the West? Sign up for our free newsletter at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter to check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/MzlFBXzO3istranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Dr Mary Jane Woodger has co-written several books with Dr Casey Griffiths. She share a few of her favorite relics of Restoration. We'll also talk about her future projects. Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at gospeltangents.com/newletterhttps://youtu.be/P03yC3cQDDQDon’t miss our other conversations with Mary Jane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij4PCBgtWo&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5JYmiQo4z3ZGtxxZazsJXztranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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After the Communists led a coup in Czechoslavakia and installed a friendly government there, their Most Wanted Man was LDS Mission President Wallace Toronto. While he was there, he was placed under 24 hour surveillance, deported, and then placed on the Most Wanted list by Communist leaders in Czechoslavakia. How did he continue to lead the church despite this status? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/3XHzm86-Y4oDon’t miss our other conversations with Mary Jane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij4PCBgtWo&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5JYmiQo4z3ZGtxxZazsJXztranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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How did the Church react when Hitler took over Czechoslavakia? Wallace Toronto was mission president and his biography Mary Jane Woodger details the escapate plans which were used more than once! She also details how Wally helped from LDS missionaries who were imprisoned. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/aLVpD9dSDX8Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Jane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij4PCBgtWo&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5JYmiQo4z3ZGtxxZazsJXztranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Was Wallace Toronto a mission president or spy? Wallace served as mission president in Czechoslovakia during both the Nazi and Communist regimes. Dr Mary Jane Woodger has written an amazing biography of this man called "Mission President or Spy?" In this first conversation, we'll talk about his grandfather's conversion from Italy and his major contribution to the Nauvoo Temple. We'll also discuss Wally's first mission to Czechoslavakia. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/1oNnaH7Mc6MDon’t miss our other conversations with Mary Jane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij4PCBgtWo&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5JYmiQo4z3ZGtxxZazsJXztranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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I asked Janice Allred how she views the LDS Church today, and if she had advice for LDS Church Leaders. How should ward members treat the excommunicated? We share a mini-episode of Kurt Francom's "Leading Saints" podcast on how members should reach out to excommunicated members. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/XkTh-8wRbREtranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Dr Val Larsen concludes this conversation with a discussion of theosis in the Book of Mormon. We'll also discuss his upcoming projects. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/xeyLS0v8vDkDon’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Abish is usually seen as a minor character in the Book of Mormon, but Dr Val Larsen thinks she likely had visions of God and perhaps Heavenly Mother. He will talk more about this amazing Book of Mormon woman, and show that her name has religious significance. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/LZJxXC5l2s0Don’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Dr Larsen disputes the notion that Nauvoo doctrines are not in the Book of Mormon. He says the Orthodox doctrine of theosis, or what LDS would call Exaltation is in the Book of Mormon. We'll examine the stories of Ammon, Aaron, & Lamoni to discuss how theosis is in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/YPwUAiyJoFoDon’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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We're continuing our conversation with Dr Val Larsen from James Mason University. Dr Larsen says Ammon's story is an example of exaltation or theosis. He disputes the notion that Nauvoo doctrines are not in the Book of Mormon. We'll examine the stories of Ammon, Aaron, & Lamoni to discuss how theosis is in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/2K9qII_X1Q0Don’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Many people claim that distinctive LDS doctrines like temple ceremonies, exaltation/theosis, and heavenly mother are not found in the Book of Mormon. But Dr Val Larsen from James Mason Univ disagrees. In our second interview with Val, he will touch on his research which shows these distinctive LDS doctrines are found in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/N8IpSUVSW1IDon’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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I was surprised to there are a lot of racial myths among Fundamentalist groups to support a priesthood/temple ban. I was also surprised to learn that one of the first Mormon Allreds married a woman with so-called "black blood." How does the Allred Group (aka AUB) deal with this? It turns out, not well! Moroni Jessop shares this interesting genealogy in the conclusion to our conversation and also shares racial myths about the ban. Check it out!https://youtu.be/0KSS-iwUWgQtranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Tim Ballard is famous for trying to rescue sex slaves with his Operation Underground Railroad. But now he has allegations of sexual impropriety himself. We'll talk about the controversy and how he got funding. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/H0IcCmFJeiEDon’t miss our other conversations with Scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbGWEo-o2A&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5XhDtDEr-SKFuqaWHPPlrJtranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Was the seer stone or Urim & Thummim used for translating the Book of Mormon. Scott Vance tells why he thinks a seer stone was used. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/9Rjv9Cj2WVsDon’t miss our other conversations with Scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbGWEo-o2A&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5XhDtDEr-SKFuqaWHPPlrJtranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights Reserved

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Where do LDS adjacent groups like FAIR, Saints Unscripted, and the More Good Foundation get their money? Scott Vance recently presented his findings at the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion and gives more answers. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/P956YHWLr_Atranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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A few years ago, the LDS Church switched from 3 hour church to 2 hour church. Is that helpful or hurtful to retention of members? Scott Vance weighs in, and we'll also discuss the loss of Church pageants and other activities. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/LlI9miCNoCctranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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How are LDS adjacent groups funded? Scott Vance recently presented a paper at the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion (SSSR) in Salt Lake City on how LDS adjacent groups are funded directly and indirectly by the LDS Church. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/zMkMj-d4O-otranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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September marks the 30th anniversary of the September Six. Before we get to them, we’ll talk to Moroni Jessop, who was excommunicated as a teenager from the LDS Church, the first of his 4 excommunications! I think that’s a record! He’ll describe growing up in the LDS Church and what got him in hot water. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/j___kmv-LdE

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The Act in Relation to Service legalized slavery in Utah in 1852. Dr. Sally Gordon tells more about how the statute affected both Black & Indian slavery in Utah. Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/puDhwkA7BUg

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Black & Indian Slavery in UtahGT 1:36:37 One last comment, and then I promise I’ll let you go.

Sally 1:36:40 Okay.

GT 1:36:40 Because I know it is getting late. We had a conversation yesterday a little bit about–I know Paul Reeve is coming out with a book on the 1852 legislature.

Sally 1:36:50 Yes.

GT 1:36:50 Was it Chris Rich?

Sally 1:36:51 Rich.

GT 1:36:52 Chris Rich had given a presentation a few years ago at Mormon History Association where he was trying to make a distinction between Indian slavery and Black slavery in Utah.

Sally 1:37:04 Yes.

GT 1:37:05 Can you talk a little bit about that controversy and where you stand?

Sally 1:37:07 Sure. Oh, boy, you’re getting me in trouble. There are many different kinds of slavery. Native slavery was widely practiced here in Utah, across the West, and had been practiced back east. I mean, really. It had been true slavery. The idea that slavery was just African, it was a much later idea. It really is true that slavery became a much more profitable enterprise than indentured servitude, for example. But the idea that it would be perpetual and inherited slavery was controversial in the colonies. So, I want us to understand that bound labor exists across a spectrum. When a native child was sold, and forcibly removed from their family, and held to labor, until age 18, or whatever it was–even when they were directed to be given shoes, and I don’t know, education of some rudimentary sort. When most of them died before they reached the age of 18, that’s a form of bound labor. That’s not freedom. Is it the same thing as chattel slavery, protected by King George III? No. It fits much more closely into the practice of native slavery.

Sally 1:38:59 There’s a very well-known book called, The Other Slavery by Andres Resendez,[1] who teaches at UC Davis, I think. He argues that about 5 million natives, if I have it right, were enslaved by Europeans, during the period of colonization, which is a long period. So, saying that there’s two kinds of slavery just says what we all know already. There’s lots of different slaveries. Many natives were held with African slaves for long periods. So, it’s not clear to me that people who bought native children didn’t also have black slaves. It seems like they may well have. I was talking to a scholar of slavery and said, “Well, imagine. Just imagine that someone calls this adoption and says that this is someone brought into the family and taught a faith, and that, yes, they’re required to work, but so is the whole family, and life isn’t easy for them. These are people who’ve been made orphans and are not allowed to even speak their own language.” I mean, it’s a rough, rough position for a kid. But the people who are doing the adopting, say, “Well, they were going to get killed otherwise.” If you study how the slave trade worked in Utah, and across the Southwest, the slave trade went up, when the Mormons arrived. When Europeans arrived, it went up.

Sally 1:41:01 So, it’s hard to say that this was just helping kids. Paiutes were really easy to kill. They were very peaceful people. The slave traders were vicious. It’s true that some Latter-day Saints sold kids, too. So, I want to be fair. I really do. I want to say, even with African slaves, the Latter-day Saints cared about family. That’s what they do. They cared about family. Yes, there’s some idea of adoption here. But I promise you back east, they were doing the same thing. It’s not like the Mormons made it up. Andrew Jackson adopted a little native boy, took him from his mother’s dead arms. Well, Andrew Jackson engineered the war that killed the woman. I think we need to know a lot more. We can’t just look at the situation in Utah, and say we understand the system, because all of this is about people moving, people on the move. People who had seen native slaves back east, people who had seen slaves in Illinois and copied the statute. In Utah, everybody knew that there were lots of slaves in Illinois, even though Illinois claimed to be a free state. So, I just want us to place, yet again, to think about the Latter-day Saints as part of the United States. They moved, too, as did many others. So, I think separating this out and thinking of it just as a Mormon issue is unfair to the people who were held and unfair to the Latter-day Saints.

GT 1:42:59 I think in that presentation that I remember a few years ago, Chris Rich tried to make a distinction between Indian slavery, and maybe I should use the terms he was trying to use. He said that Utah slavery was more like indentured servitude, with an idea towards gradual emancipation.

Sally 1:43:18 Yeah, and we know, that doesn’t work. And they knew then, because it didn’t work in Illinois. They copied the Illinois statute.

GT 1:43:27 The Act in Relation of Service is a copy of an Illinois statute?

Sally 1:43:31 Yeah.

GT 1:43:31 Oh, I didn’t realize that.

Sally 1:43:32 Well, it’s not perfect. But, yes, it’s the same kind of thing. You’re supposed to register your slaves. So, how many slaves were registered in Utah? (One.) So, there’s been great work done on Free State slavery over the past 20 years. I’m working on some in Pennsylvania. One of the things we have learned is that–for example, in Illinois, a person who held a human being as property, which is pretty disgusting, would show up at the court and say, “I’m registering my slave, and she’s agreed to an indentured contract with me for the next 30 years. I’m going to pay her $5 at the end.” Courts would approve it. I’m stereotyping, but there were lots of cases like that. There has been some really interesting work on whether indentured servitude really is–just having a contract is not being free. That’s what we need to remember, that if it quacks like slavery loudly enough, the fact that somebody ripped a piece of paper or someone else consented, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fair or free.

GT 1:45:08 If I remember right, didn’t the Act in Relation to Service require Native Americans to be educated, but it did not have the same for blacks?

Sally 1:45:19 No.

GT 1:45:20 There’s one difference there.

Sally 1:45:21 Absolutely. So that’s what I’m saying. You have to be fair that the Saints saw this as kids. They saw this as kids, who were taken away from their families. So, they wanted to do something. They also worried about the families of enslaved people in that statute. You’re not allowed to split up the families. So, yes, I don’t want to exaggerate or be unfair. In fact, I was talking with Melissa Inouye yesterday, saying, “This needs really careful parsing. We want to be right about how we think about this.” And being right means placing it in context, not just looking at the Mormons, which, of course, is what a lot of Mormon people want to do, and I don’t blame them.

GT 1:46:20 It’s what I do.

Sally 1:46:22 Well, but you’re talking to me, and I’m enjoying it so much. You learn things from people, and it helps. It helps give you perspective. So, that’s what I–I haven’t decided, but I have real questions, and I’m working really hard. I want to learn more. But I think just saying, “Read the statute and do what it says,” as a lawyer, we know that’s not the way the world works. It’s different on the ground. It’s like sort of saying, just read the Bible and do what it says. I mean, people live their religion differently than the exact commandments, because life requires you to encounter situations that no one anticipates. So, just reading the statute isn’t enough.

Biddy MasonGT 1:47:20 All right, was there anything I missed? Are there any projects you’re working on, or anything you want to share with my audience?

Sally 1:47:26 What would I say? I’m working hard on Biddy Mason. I hope that a co-author and I will have an article out in the next year or so. California was another free state full of slaves. So, I just want you to [remember that.] And they had a much more–no slaves in California. That’s what their constitution said. But the Supreme Court of California said, “Well, just, when your owner brings you to California, that doesn’t mean you’re free. No, no, no. The legislature would have to free you.” And the legislature was pro-slavery, so it didn’t work. But I guess I would say, it’s a special pleasure to be here after the pandemic, to be able to see your face and see your lovely smile, and your interest in what you do. We’re here pretty late at night. We’ve both worked hard all day, and yet, we can share. We can think, with each other. You’ve asked a lot of hard questions, and I appreciate that. I hope you appreciate that my answers are partial, because I feel like I’m still learning. I’ve only been teaching…

GT 1:48:48 You’re one of the greatest constitutional scholars and you’re still learning.

Sally 1:48:51 I’ve only been teaching for 30 years, but I’m still [learning] every day. The ways you’ve put your questions has helped me think, so, I’m grateful. That’s why we do what we do. That’s why we talk to other people. We have been starved and I hope we can come out of this being grateful for having made it through and trying to learn and engage. I think Latter-day Saints are really good at that. I was so welcomed this weekend. I was so grateful to be here. I would come back to my hotel at night so excited, writing notes, thinking about getting together with you. Because, if we don’t help each other learn, if we sit behind Zoom screens, it’s agonizingly lonely. So, I’m thankful to you for doing what you do, and for making me welcome.

GT 1:49:57 Well, like I told you yesterday, you’re the whole reason I came to this conference.

Sally 1:50:02 I don’t believe that.

GT 1:50:03 I’ve only been doing this for six years and I wanted [to interview] you the entire time.

Sally 1:50:08 Well, I hope I come through okay. As I said, I hate looking in the mirror. I hate all that. I try not to listen to myself, except when a class has been recorded where I feel I didn’t do a good job and I try to listen to that and try to figure out where I tripped up. Because a bad class is still a very painful thing. When it doesn’t go the way you want, it’s just agony.

GT 1:50:35 Well, this has been a treat, not agony at all.

Sally 1:50:37 A treat for me.

GT 1:50:40 Alright, well, Sally Gordon, thank you so much.

Sally 1:50:43 Thank you, Rick.

GT 1:50:43 By the way, I should give your author’s name. You’re Sarah Barringer Gordon.

Sally 1:50:47 That’s me.

GT 1:50:48 The [Mormon] Question, but you go by Sally.

Sally 1:50:51 I do. I’m named after my grandmother, Sally Barringer, and I keep her name to show my love for her and how much I miss her.

GT 1:51:02 Well, thank you so much for being here on Gospel Tangents. This has been such a treat.

Sally 1:51:06 A treat for me, too.

[1] Can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3KyIayv

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The Other Slavery: The Uncovered Story of Indian Enslavement in America

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Bryan Ready has visited the Nauvoo Pageant for years, and now he’s part of the cast! He’ll describe his experiences in the pageant, and how Casey Griffiths asked him to write about Church history sites in Illinois. Check out our conversation, but signing up to our free newsletter at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter

https://youtu.be/Z6DSD9uhRLo

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A former Baptist pastor tells how he changed his mind on Joseph Smith from fraud to prophet. How did he deal with polygamy? And what are his ideas on the differences between priesthood for Baptists and Mormons. Check out our conversation….

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What does a former Baptist Pastor think of LDS temples? Bryan Ready will tell us! We'll also find out why he set 4 baptismal dates before he joined the LDS Church. I was surprised to find out he joined despite having been dropped by the missionaries! Check out our conversation....

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This is my 3rd interview with a Baptist Pastor this year, but this time I'm excited to introduce a convert. Bryan Ready is the author of "Crossing the Divide," a book about his conversion to the LDS Church. I was surprised to find out the Osmonds were the first to introduce him to the Church. Check out our conversation...

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Jim Lucas & Jonathan Neville think revisions need to be made to the Gospel Topics Essays. They also critique Richard Bushman's scholarship. Check out our conversation...

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Does Book of Mormon translation method matter? Many people don't care whether Joseph used a seer stone or a Urim & Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon. Why does it matter so much to Jim Lucas & Jonathan Neville? They answer in our next conversation!

https://youtu.be/4V_1428u8lk

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Oliver Cowdery is famous for trying to translate the Book of Mormon in D&C 8 and 9. Did he try to use a dowsing rod to do so, or is there another explanation? Jonathan Neville & Jim Lucas are co-authors of "By Means of the Urim & Thummim" and say Oliver is the best witness for translation without a seer stone. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/RLwyQxX8KI8

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Emma Smith served as Joseph Smith's scribe for most of the Lost 116 pages and likely knew how Joseph translated better than almost anyone. Yet Jim Lucas and Jonathan Neville discount Emma Smith's testimony that Joseph used the seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon? Why? Check out our conversation...

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Have you ever tried picturing translation of the Book of Mormon? Did Joseph Smith read the words off the stone or Urim & Thummim directly (tight translation), or was he shown scenes in the Book of Mormon and used his own words to describe the scene (loose translation)? Mormon scholars are split on this topic, but Jim Lucas and Jonathan Neville will do their best to explain how Joseph used a Urim & Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation...

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David Whitmer says Joseph used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon. LDS Historians believe Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, but authors Jim Lucas and Jonathan Neville are pushing back against that theory. The two lawyers argue that the traditional story that Joseph used the Urim & Thummim to translate is more accurate, and they have written a new book, "By Means of the Urim & Thummim" to lay out their arguments. Because David Whitmer left the Church, they argue David Whitmer is hostile witness and can't be trusted. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/Kl4iVSX8EJA

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Who bears the most blame for Mountain Meadows Massacre? Barbara Jones Brown & Richard Turley will discuss the roles of Brigham Young, John D Lee, Isaac Haight, William Dame, and others in the massacre. We'll also discuss why it is important to discuss the massacre, and what other projects Barbara & Rick are working on. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/cIxbvLL0Euo

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Blood Atonement has long been attributed as a reason a hundred Arkansas immigrants were killed in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Did it play a role in the atrocity? Richard Turley & Barbara Jones Brown discuss the controversial doctrine, and whether the massacre was revenge for Parley Pratt's murder. We'll also discuss whether Brigham Young was involved in the cover-up of the massacre. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/s9HXbhR5CYU

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"Vengeance is Mine" is the sequel to "Massacre at Mountain Meadows." Rick Turley & Barbara Jones Brown discuss what Juanita Brooks and Will Bagley got wrong in their previous Mountain Meadows book. Barbara & Rick have uncovered new records about John D Lee's 2nd trial that changes the traditional narrative. They have uncovered new trial transcripts that break some of the things that previous authors Will Bagley & Juanita Brooks got wrong. What are these new findings? Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/PEvWyNqRBIY

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The Mountain Meadows Massacre is the worst event in Mormon History. John D Lee was the only man convicted. For a century, the LDS Church has tried to cover up the terrible event. There is a game-changing book that sheds new light onthe prosecution of John D Lee, the only man convicted of the massacre. The authors conclude the massacre was covered up from the beginning, but was Brigham Young involved? "Vengeance is Mine" is the newest book on the event. Check out our conversation with Barbara Jones Brown & Richard Turley.

https://youtu.be/bQiU3IUhnLQ

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That's right! Tired of waiting for the next segment? Gospel Tangents will now post Monday-Friday with the newest segments. Plus I'm simplifying the tiers! Sign up to watch full videos before the price goes up! Check out our merch store at www.gospeltangents.com/shop and I'll be speaking at JWHA in September! Come to Texas if you can!

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We'll hear about an amusing episode where the CoC prophet sustained the LDS prophet in our final conversation with Dr Mark Scherer, retired Church Historian from the Community of Christ. We'll also discuss Mark's final history, "Journey of a People, Vol 3" that discusses the 1984 revelation allowing women to hold priesthood in the Community of Christ. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/yEhqFjIhpew

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Few people in the LDS Church know that Emma Smith married again. This time it was a non-Mormon man by the name of Lewis Bidamon. Dr Mark Scherer details how they met, and how Emma raised Lewis's child from an affair! We'll also talk about her grandson, Fred M Smith, who caused a lot of ripples in the RLDS Church. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/HGMEGa2_jiY

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The Civil War Prophecy & Baptism for the Dead are 2 of Joseph Smith's most famous revelations. While important to the LDS, the Community of Christ no longer canonizes either revelation. We'll learn more about their view from Community of Christ historian Dr Mark Scherer. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/Y9J53wmD1KU

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Did Joseph embellish the First Vision accounts? Dr Mark Scherer is the retired Church Historian from the Community of Christ. He's written a 3-volume work called "Journey of a People," similar to the 4-volume Church history work by the LDS Church called "Saints." Volume 1 contains the shared history of the Community of Christ & LDS Church. We'll talk about differences in interpretation, like the First Vision and other events. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/UICbjMjzxgk

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We're continuing our conversation with Remnant Prophet-Pres Terry Patience. I'm going to put him on the spot with several hot button issues: evolution, women & priesthood, LGBT, Polygamy, & Sexism. How does he view these issues? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/_Dk8My2MksU

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I'm excited to have another prophet on the show, this time a prophet in Zion! Terry Patience is the prophet-President of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints based in Independence, Missouri. Their headquarters are across the street from the Community of Christ Temple, and they claim several Smiths as leaders of the Remnant Church as well. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/T6b2YJkNTsQ

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We're looking at the trial and execution of John D Lee. How reponsible was Brigham Young? How did the trials affect public opinion against the Mormons? Dr Janiece Johnson says this reverberates, even to today with the recent release of "Under the Banner of Heaven." Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/eHbfd0yW5XU

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148 years ago this week, John D. Lee stood in his trial for his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Dr Janiece Johnson has studied the Mountain Meadows Massacre for over 20 years. Her latest book, Convicting the Mormons is based both on her Ph.D. Dissertation as well as the time she spent working with Richard Turley & Barbara Jones Brown on "Vengeance is Mine." Janiece discusses how Americans viewed the massacre, and how the massacre has been used to cast aspersions on Mormons over a century. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/wwQz-eNuQBQ

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There is a claim that there is a Nephite Temple across the Mississippi River from Nauvoo. Does Jay Mackley think there is evidence? In our final conversation with Limited Heartland Geographer Jay Mackley, why does he prefer a tight translation instead of loose for the Book of Mormon? We'll hit the tougher questions: anachronisms, DNA, and geology. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/R9ps8UCuLGw

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I'm excited to have Jay Mackley on the show. You probably didn't know there is more than 1 Heartland Theory out there. A lot of people think that the current models cover too much area, but Jay has a computer optimized Limited Geography model. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/_ffpLMVB5Bk

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Bruce R McConkie is fomous for advocating that the Catholic Church is the "Great & Abominable Church" mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Is that offensive to Cristina Rosetti, a Catholic? She'll respond to that in our next conversation. We'll also talk about religoius violence from the Crusades to Mountain Meadows. What does she think of that? Is religion in decline, or is it readying for another upswing? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/q3Hb0jIX9vU

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How did Catholic scholar Cristina Rosetti get interested in Mormon polygamists? Did she really attend an LDS Young Single Adult Ward? We'll find out more about her background, as well as the TLC Church, and her feelings about Under the Banner of Heaven. Did she like it? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/hJb2zmY9QhM

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How did a Born Again Christian converted to Catholicism while studying Mormonism? Dr Cristina Rosetti answers. Check out our conversation...

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Dr Cristina Rosetti grew up pretty uninterested in religion. Yet she converted both to the Pentecostal Church and then Catholicism, while finding great joy studying not just Mormonism but Mormon Fundamentalism as well. Find out more about her faith journey, starting with a born again faith crisis, and the Juanita Brooks Conference. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/-9VvTH1tPFI

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Is Satan the Fruit of Tree of Knowledge? Is Divine Mother in the Temple ceremonies? We'll talk about these and other issues like why Christ was baptized, and why Dr Val Larsen thinks Moral Influence is the best atonement theory. Check out our conversation...

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Is the Jerusalem Temple the Great & Spacious Building mentioned in the Book of Mormon? Is Divine Mother, theosis/exaltation in the Book of Mormon? Dr Val Larsen says "Yes!" He also thinks Laman & Lemuel tried to kill Nephi for religious reasons! Check out our conversation!

https://youtu.be/2dxnrsLrAOk

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Dr Val Larsen thinks Lehi was a polytheist! That's quite a statement! Val holds two Ph.D. 's, one in English and the other in Marketing. He teaches at James Madison University. He shares how he thinks Lehi synthesized the Canaanite & Israelite religions and shares his insights into theosis/exaltation in the Book of Mormon, divine mother, and lots of other interesting Book of Mormon topics. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/qma8ZZ8vQSQ

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Link to Val's article: https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/theosis-in-the-book-of-mormon-the-work-and-glory-of-the-father-mother-and-son-and-holy-ghost/

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Last time we discussed the pros of the Delmarva Theory of the Book of Mormon. This time we'll dive into the skeptics questions. How does Laura Hathaway handle iron swords, horses, silk, DNA, 3 days of darkness? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/Q71b_5ofOqw

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Laura Hathaway has a relatively new Book of Mormon Geography Theory. She thinks the Book of Mormon lands encompass the Delmarva Peninsula on the east coast of the United States, near the Chesapeake Bay area. She'll tell us why she thinks these are Book of Mormon lands. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/m5HmDO4mg3Y

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There are many epistles attributed to the Apostle Paul in the New Testament. Did everyone mistranslate Paul? What mistranslations are in these letters? Did Joseph correct or misinterpret Paul? Did Paul start Christianity? We'll dive deep into these and other questions with Dr. Thomas Wayment. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/pilLxb01cdA

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We’ll discuss the controversy of Thomas Wayment’s recent paper about the Joseph Smith Translation & Adam Clarke. What do people get wrong? We’ll also discuss some New Testament scholarship. Did Joseph Smith and/or other translators mistranslate Paul? Did Paul start Christianity? Dr Thomas Wayment has a new edition and new publisher of is translation of the New Testament! Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/L6kkhSHX4Ok

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I visited the weeklong World Conference in April 2023 and gave a daily recap of events. Here’s what I thought in realtime! Check out my visit!

https://youtu.be/FlcMwRDJaJw

0:00 Day 0 Registration
2:09 Day 1 Inside Temple
7:43 African Musical Group
8:01 Day 2 Tour of Temple, Seminary, Auditorium
14:45 Day 3 Fire Alarm!
18:48 Temple Chapel (Day 3 cont)
22:13 Day 4 Recap/Met a Prophet!
25:05 Phoenicia Warehouse (Iowa)
30:14 Day 6 Recap
33:40 Stone Church Day 7 Conclusion

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What’s the difference between LDS General Conference & Community of Christ World Conference? A LOT! Deb Luce says not everyone attends CoC Conference, there is much more debate, and it lasts a week instead of 2 days! Find out more!

https://youtu.be/pD9lDZ4YSrg

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Deb Luce’s life was transformed following the 1984 revelation giving women priesthood in the Community of Christ. She became female pastor of the same congregation that voted against female ordination! Were there still hard feelings? And how does she feel about her new calling as an evangelist who gives church members blessings? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/e_V1vF2H6Qg

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Following a car accident, Deb Luce couldn’t feel her legs or toes. She received a blessing by a Community of Christ chaplain, and a miracle healing led to her conversion! She is currently serving as an evangelist in the Community of Christ. (In the LDS Church, she would function as a patriarch and give patriarchal blessings.) It’s not the only healing she’s been a part of! Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/ZS0gRuoBQoE

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Many churches are struggling with how to handle LGBT members. The United Methodist Church is splitting over the issue of gay clergy. What are the similarities and differences between Baptists and LDS? We’ll also discuss the recent apology from the Baptist Church over race issues. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/oHydYC-GrOI

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Can women hold priesthood? The LDS Church doesn’t allow females to hold the priesthood. Is it similar in the Baptist Church? Is confession of sexual sin important to Baptists? How do Baptists handle sexual abuse cases? I put Kyle Beshears on the hot seat so you can see the similarities and differences with the LDS Church. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/SF9KfnKrcs0

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Kyle Beshears returns to Gospel Tangents, and we’re going to cover some difficult topics. Are Mormons Christian? How does he justify his answer? I think you’ll be surprised by his answer. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/SnhTWHjWmsQ

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Is there a translation of the Caracters document? Jerry Grover says yes! He’ll tell us how he translated this reformed Egyptian, which is a combination of hieratic and demotic languages, and whether it comes from the Lost 116 Pages! Check out our conversation…

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What were the Golden Plates made of? Probably not 100% gold, because that would be too heavy. Could it have been a copper alloy? Jerry Grover gives more info as he attempts to translate the Caracters Document. Check out our conversation….

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Can Evangelicals & Mormons get along? If they are Steve Pynakker & Rick Bennett they can! Steve & Rick switch sides. This time Rick asks Steve about his evangelical experiences with Mormons. Check out our conversation!

https://youtu.be/hhoFFH0SCuI

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Back in January, Rick Bennett traveled to Florida to hang out with Steve Pynakker of Mormon Book Reviews. Rick & Steve get personal! Steve interviews Rick to find out how his opinions of evangelicals have changed. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/8a1IjeSoLRg

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What the family of Mark Hofmann think of the documentary “Murder Among the Mormons”? Mark’s cousins Diane Smith & Michelle Stone give their takes on the movie. We’ll also discuss whether the bombings and forgeries are a sore subject for the family. Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/Kq-Hf9xGyJw

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How did Mark Hofmann’s family react to his injuries from a bomb? Diane Smith & Michelle Stone are two of Mark’s cousins and they share their reactions. What was Mark’s motive for killing people? Was it an accident or suicide? Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/eM8vvRI6BJs

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What did Mark Hofmann’s family think when a bomb went off? Did they think he was guilty? What was he like growing up? Michelle Stone & Diane Smith are two of Mark’s cousins and knew him well. They’ll talk about family lore, whether polygamy was secret in their family, and what Mark was like as a young boy and teen. Was he always a sociopath? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/2ZcOSsy3uNU

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Where did the Wise Men come from? In our final conversation with TikTok star Dr Dan McClellan, we going to discuss the birth of the devil, and get into the New Testament. Can a rich man really get through the eye of a needle? And was Jesus friendly with the Pharisees? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/j_yk5UyvsnM

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Many scholars believe multiple authors wrote the Book of Isaiah, and some claim it was after 600 BC when Nephi left Jerusalem. Is there an Isaiah problem for the Book of Mormon? Who wrote the Book of Isaiah? Dr Dan McClellan will discuss these issues. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/R27hyFBIY4c

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We're continuing our discussion about Israelite/Canaanite religion with TikTok star Dan McClellan. Is it true God had a wife? When did Israel become monotheistic? (Later than you think!) We'll also talk about God's consort. Was her name Asherah? Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/n-Xq-Q6XzO0transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Dr Dan McClellan is an Old Testament TikTok star! Was Abraham a monotheist? We're going to take a deep dive into the Bible, and find out what some scholars believe about the Bible that are different than you probably heard at Church. You won't want to miss this conversation. Check it out!https://youtu.be/40TL5KH0AQgtranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Rick Bennett went on a walking tour of Independence, MO with Matthew Turner. They found 14 Mormon historical markers ranging from the first landowner in Independence (Jacob Flournoy) to Governor Boggs' now torn-down house. I'll show you where some of the most tumultuous places were in Independence as we tour sites identified by the Missouri-Mormon Frontier Foundation. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/M-dm0VAB1Jotranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissiontranscript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Congrats to Janine Bean for winning "Let's Talk about Race & Priesthood!" Also register for the upcoming conferences. JWHA Business Meeting is actually April 21, 2023.

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As we conclude our conversation with Dr Paul Reeve, he tells how the 1978 revelation affected Black Women as well. We'll briefly review Jane Manning James attempt to get temple blessings, as well as find other women seeking sealing blessings. We'll also talk about how Joseph F Smith closed opportunities for blacks, and both David O McKay & Spencer Kimball's reopening opportunities. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/iQeFR6aTVJQCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissionHow Deep Into the Ban?GT 00:40 Well, I can't wait for your book to come out. Show people how thick this book is. It's a tiny book, especially compared to your [other book.] How many pages is that?Paul 00:53 Well, with all the notes and everything and the index, it's 161 pages. But, in terms of just the writing, the last page in the last chapter is page 133.GT 01:08 Okay.Paul 01:08 So it's short. And the chapters are short, too. This was also something that I struggled to adjust to. They wanted sort of short, pithy chapters, keep the reader moving. But I actually grew to enjoy it right after I got into it. And so, some chapters are three pages, four pages long. They address the issue, and then we move on.GT 01:34 You could probably read that in about an hour I’ll bet, or two hours, maybe.Paul 01:39 A couple of hours. I mean, people have sat down and just read it. I mean, I'm getting texts from people. "Hey, I just bought this and read it in a couple of hours." So, Deseret Book does have the audio version available. And I think it's says it's like a four-hour thing, if you listen to it on full speed. You can ramp it up to double speed and be done in a couple of hours.GT 02:05 Are you the narrator, or did they get somebody else?Paul 02:07 I'm not, no, they got someone else.GT 02:11 So, how much history can you put into just a 130 page book? Because I have a feeling your Religion of a Different Color is much more in depth, much more detailed than this. Is that true?Paul 02:28 It absolutely is. Yeah, of course. So, you get much more in depth. I go into outside public perception of who Latter-day Saints were, in Religion of a Different Color. And this is, there is one short chapter on that in this book, but it's largely the inside story. Religion of a Different Color tries to demonstrate the way that outsiders perceived Latter-day Saints, racially, in the 19th century, as not white enough. And you don't get the full extent of that in this. This is largely the inside story of moving away from their own black Latter-day Saint converts, towards whiteness, and the way that the racial restrictions take on a life of their own across the course of the 19th century. So yeah, I have to be really selective in the examples that I choose. And Deseret Book basically said [I need to shorten the book.] Yeah, I mean, the manuscript that I turned in, they said, "You've got to cut 10,000 words," to fit their format.GT 03:36 How many words is that, do you know?Paul 03:38 I can't remember what it finally came in at, but I had to cut 10,000, from what I originally submitted. And, I said, "You're already asking me to submit something that's so short. And then you're asking me to cut 10,000?”Paul 03:53 Really, what they said was, "Cut out the multiple examples in each chapter. So, pick an example that illustrates the bigger point." I struggled with that, at first, but I actually like how it turned out, because it gives you an example to sink your teeth into. It illustrates the bigger point of the chapter. Some chapters do include more than one black Latter-day Saint story. But that's the other thing that I tried to do in this book is draw upon Century of Black Mormons. So, the racial story, even in Religion of a Different Color, is largely told from the perspective of the white leaders who are...

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The One Drop Rule was used to justify slavery and segregation in America. Unfortunately, it seeped into the LDS Church in the form of a ban on blacks from priesthood and temple ordinances. But did Brigham Young use the word in his famous 1852 speech to the Utah Legislature? Paul Reeve says no. Find out more in our next conversation.....https://youtu.be/OzVtpb8pfxwCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissionRussell Dewey RitchiePaul 00:56 So we have other people who have who pass as white in the database. In the database, we have a couple of cases where people, Latter-day Saints in the 21st century have written to us and said, "Hey, we have African ancestry in our DNA in the 21st century, and we think it traces back to ancestor X or Y, and if so, we would love to have them included in the database." And we've done the research and there have been other examples like that. Russell...GT 01:34 Stephenson?Paul 01:35 Russell Dewey Ritchie is in the database, and he is ordained in 1971. He's in his 70s. And his father was formerly enslaved. So, he's the son...GT 01:53 Did you say 1871 or 1971?Paul 01:54 Correct, 1971, 1971. His father was born into slavery. So, this is the son of a slave. He was ordained in 1971. But, you know, he passed as white by that point. His father is likely the result of interracial rape and born into slavery,GT 02:21 Because the slaveholders used to purposely impregnate slaves to get more slaves, right?Paul 02:26 Correct.GT 02:27 Is that probably what happened?Paul 02:28 Well, I don't know the intent. The family has done all kinds of DNA work in this particular case. And so Russell's father, Nelson Holder Ritchie is the descendant of a white enslaver, and a black enslaved [mother.] And the circumstantial evidence suggests that it was more than likely an interracial rape and she becomes pregnant, is sold into Missouri. That's where Nelson Holder Ritchie is born. And then he shows up in the 1860s, in the home of a man by the last name of Ritchie in Kansas, who runs a stop on the Underground Railroad. And Nelson takes that as his last name. He fights in the Civil War on the side of freedom. He's a product of an interracial rape, more than likely. And then after the Civil War, he establishes a livery stable and hotel in Great Bend, Kansas, marries a white woman. Missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints take room and board at his hotel. You can predict the rest of the story. The family converts, they moved to Utah. Nelson and his wife, Annie Kellen Russell, apply to be sealed to each other. They apply for a temple admission in 1909 and are prevented because Nelson is black, and his bishop says "No. You can't." And they appeal and they say, "But our two oldest daughters have already been sealed in the Salt Lake Temple."GT 04:20 Oh, wow.Paul 04:21 And they had. They had. So they are, then, the product of two generations of interracial marriages, because Nelson's wife, Annie is white. He's a formerly enslaved man. Their children are light enough to pass [as white.] The two oldest daughters had moved out of the home, weren't living in the same ward, found people to marry and went to the Salt Lake Temple. No one had any questions about it. So, they were sealed. So, when Nelson and Annie wanted to be sealed as well, they said, "Well, our two oldest daughters are sealed." The bishop said "I don't care. I'm not letting you go," and never gave them a recommend. They had nine kids and every one of the kids either in life or by proxy after death received priesthood ordination and temple admission before 1978. One of the daughters is a Relief Society president in Layton, Utah and sealed to her husband, and passes away in 1976. The daughter of a slave dies in Utah as a temple worker in 1976.GT 05:32 Wow.

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I'm happy to have Dr Paul Reeve back on the show! We'll talk about the earliest black Mormons who did and did not hold the priesthood. Paul has a new book published by Deseret Book titled "Let's Talk About Race and Priesthood." He will introduce the book and discuss his amazing website called "Century of Black Mormons." It will include not only famous ones like Elijah Abel, but others you haven't heard of like his son Moroni Abel. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/jWGxwREuH3gCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permissionEarliest Black MormonsGT 00:36 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have one of my favorite historians. It's been a long time since he's been on the show. Some of you new listeners may not have even known that Paul was my second interview ever. Paul, could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where we are?Paul 00:52 I'm Paul Reeve and I'm a Simmons Chair of Mormon studies in the history department at the University of Utah.GT 01:00 Perfect. I remember the last time I talked to you, you had just received a promotion. And this is not the same office that we were in last time.Paul 01:12 That's right.GT 01:13 I think you've received a couple of promotions since then. Last time you were a full professor. What's happened in the last seven years?Paul 01:20 So I am now chair of the History Department at the University of Utah. It's a three-year appointment. I'm in the first of three years as chair at the department.GT 01:32 And that's your favorite job?Paul 01:35 Well, I'd probably rather be in the classroom.GT 01:40 You know, it's funny because Margaret Toscano, she's been on a couple of times, and she was department chair. And she was like, "I can't wait until I'm done with this."Paul 01:48 Yes.GT 01:49 What's the big deal about department chair? Why is it such a terrible job?Paul 01:54 {Chuckles} Well, hopefully no one from my department listens to this. It's a lot of bureaucratic work that just isn't my favorite thing.GT 02:05 Okay. I can see that. So, you're just much more of a researcher.Paul 02:10 Yeah, I'd rather be in the classroom and researching and writing.GT 02:15 Well, very good. Okay. Well, you've got a new book. Now, why don't you go ahead and show it to the audience? It's a big book, you can see.Paul 02:24 (Chuckling) It's very small.GT 02:25 What's it called?Paul 02:26 Let's Talk About Race and Priesthood. It's a part of Deseret Book's, "Let's talk About" series. Darius Gray wrote the foreword and I'm really honored to have his story at the beginning of the book. He's a remarkable Latter-day Saint and I'm really honored that he was willing to participate and write the foreword.GT 02:57 Yeah, Darius is a great guy. I actually talked to him when I saw you last week at Writ & Vision. So, he's going to be on the show. But for those people who don't know who he is, could you just give a short blurb about Darius?Paul 03:11 Yeah, Darius joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints before the 1978 revelation and has been just an important black Latter-day Saint ever since. He was a part of the original Genesis group leadership and became president of Genesis, which is a support group for black Latter-day Saints officially organized by the Church. He was a counselor from 1971 to 1997. So, think about the tenure that he spent there. And then he became president of Genesis from 1997 to 2003.GT 03:55 You know, they used to have 20-year callings. We didn't think those still were around, but apparently, they are.Paul 04:00 In Darius' case, they were, yes. And he really became the face of Genesis and really made it what it is today. I think he's lived through being a black Latter-day Saint and all of the changes that the 1978 Revelation brought abo...

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Greg Louder is our winner of "The Burning Book!" Plus I have a few announcements about upcoming guests and me speaking in April!https://youtu.be/ohXbgYLoibM

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Since Dr Jason Olson is a religious studies major, I couldn't wait to ask him some Bible questions. Is he a literalist? Are some prophets mythical? Where does he stand on issues like the Documentary Hypothesis? Is Noah's flood global, local, or mythical? We'll also talk about the rise of anti-Semitism. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/-BThbp0wMWMGospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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As Jason Olson returned from his mission, he was still conflicted on LDS/Jewish dating. He decided to return to BYU to finish his studies, and studied Hebrew. He discusses some heated discussions about Israel-Palestian relations, and decided to continue his studies at Brandeis University. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/op_O6zThUDoAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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We continue our conversation with Dr. Jason Olson. He details his baptism and LDS mission, and how he continues to wrestle over his dual Jewish & Mormon identities. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/tx3LEGWAw9QGospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

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Dr Jason Olson is author of a new memoir called "The Burning Book." He details his Jewish upbringing, and how he became interested in the LDS Church. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/09kTpvALOw0Copyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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In our final conversation with historian Vickie Speek, she'll talk about the James Strang's death, and how the role of prophet & apostle did not continue in the Strangite Church. She also shares how learning about James Strang adversely affected her testimony of Joseph Smith. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/GQT6x3xKo2UCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Vickie Speek is here to talk about Strangite temple ceremonies, and the introduction of polygamy among the Strangites. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/6lWX3IJaFUICopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Vickie Speek continues our conversation about James Strang, an early rival to Brigham Young. Strang gained some famous Strangites to his movement. He was successful in gaining some influential converts like Martin Harris & William Smith. Who else joined? Vickie will share that, as well as information on Strangite temple practices and other scriptures produced by James Strang called the Book of the Law of the Lord. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/qY02Tb-POWgCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Vickie Speek is the premier expert on the life of James Strang, an early Mormon leader. We'll talk about Strang's vision, calling as a prophet, the plates and revelations he was involved with, and whether they might have been forged. You won't want to miss this conversation. Check it out...https://youtu.be/0qx_m5TJkzwCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Dr Kyle Beshears dives into James Strang's wives and concubines. We'll learn about a cross-dressing polygamist wife, and about James Strang's life. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/29wBDWpLUikCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Mormons & Baptists often clash, but Dr Kyle Bashears is one of those cool Baptist Pastors you don't run across every day. It turns out that Kyle completed his masters thesis and Ph.D. dissertation on Mormon topics! Kyle will discuss his thesis on the Book of Mormon and will discuss one area he thinks the Book of Mormon lacks in emphasis. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/Lje_wbY1w90Copyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2023Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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We’re switching gears and talking about an interesting topic: biblical giants! Did they come to America? Adam Stokes is an apostle for the Assured Way Church, and he discusses how his beliefs about giants also help him support the Heartland Theory of Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/eTKC9fcAsAs

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Adam Stokes is not only an apostle for Church of Jesus Christ – The Assured Way of the Lord, but he has a divinity degree from Yale University. Does his scholarship training conflict with biblical literalism? How does he balance the competing ideas? We’re going to talk about Biblical Scholarship vs Literalism. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/iYwcr7hSwog

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Adam Stokes is an apostle for Church of Jesus Christ – The Assured Way of the Lord. We’re going to learn more about this church, and it’s first leaders, Otto Fetting and William Draves. Check out our conversation…

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Adam Stokes is a convert to the Elijah Message Movement and has met with Bickertonites and Community of Christ prior to joining the Church of Jesus Christ – The Assured Way of the Lord. We’ll learn more about the founders of the movement, Otto Fetting and William Draves, and more about this group that has roots in the Temple Lot Church. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/1ZMCBfsvoR0

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We’re continuing our conversation with Jerry Grover. This time we’re looking to the stars. The Book of Mormon star is unique because when night came, it did not get dark. How can that be explained? Jerry Grover discusses why the event may have happened in the Western Hemisphere, but not the Eastern Hemisphere. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/P265HTuOswE

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One of the big differences between the Heartland & Mesoamerican Theories of the Book of Mormon deals with volcanoes. Very few people have studied Book of Mormon geology. During the destruction found in 3rd Nephi, it mentions earthquakes and “mists of darkness.” Meso proponents believe this is a reference to volcanoes, and there are several candidates in Mesoamerica. These volcanoes are not found in the Heartland, and Heartlanders dismiss this possibility. Jerry Grover has a background in geology and has written a book called “Geology of the Book of Mormon.” He’s the first to make an in-depth look at the Book of Mormon from a geological point of view. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/RPooy0ZlpTw

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Paul Toscano had a minor role in the Hofmann Case. Paul was good friends with Steve Christensen, the first man killed by Mark Hofmann over what turned out to be the Salamander Letter forgery, although some thought it had to do with Steve Christensen’s financial company which Paul was trying to save from bankruptcy at the time. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/rv9oHqZolfU

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It’s been 30 years since six intellectuals were excommunicated all in the month of September from the LDS Church. This is why they’re know as the Sept Six. News spread quickly and sent a chill in the academic community. Paul Toscano looks back on those events from 30 years ago, and tells what happened, why, and who was involved. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/kKari0QgaKY

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We’re continuing our conversation with Jonathan Neville discussing similarities between theologian Jonathan Edwards and the Book of Mormon. What are some of these Edwards phrases found in the Book of Mormon? Neville will also discuss his critics about his work on Jonathan Edwards. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/wP_0RWBYY3w

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Jonathan Neville believes Joseph Smith often used words and ideas from 18th century theologian Jonathan Edwards. Who is Jonathan Edwards? Neville claims Edwards was sort of a Billy Graham figure of his day. Neville believes that Smith used phrases like “natural man is an enemy to God” and other Edwards ideas in the Book of Mormon. Are you convinced? We’ll also talk about why Neville thinks Joseph didn’t use a seer stone, but the Urim & Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon, and that the translation is a loose, rather than tight translation. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/9FB39S3o7sY

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We're going to take a deep dive into modern Mormon schisms, from the ones dating to Joseph Smith's death to modern ones. Last time we did an overview of the Succession Crisis. This time we'll learn how modern groups descend from older groups including Cutlerites, Hedrickites, Strangites, Brighamites, and Josephites. It's an amazing conversation you don't want to miss. Check it out!https://youtu.be/1p81oduHUwACopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Following the death of Joseph Smith, a succession crisis enveloped the Church. Several vied for leadership. While most people recognize Brigham Young and Joseph Smith III, there were several other leaders like Alpheus Cutler, Granville Hedrick, James Strang, and others who led movements still leading congregations today. Not only that, but others have broken off from these leaders, creating new churches numbering in the hundreds of “Mormon” congregations. John Hamer will discuss the reasons for schisms, and how these schisms continue through the present day. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/jt4J5uYghtMCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Transcript to follow.Copyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Christmas Bonus! I accidentally cut out a short segment about an LDS Cricket team in Pakistan, as well as LDS Armenian artists, and some artifacts from the School of the Prophets. So here's a bonus episode with Dr Casey Griffiths discussing International Mormons in 50 More Relics of the Restoration! Check out our conversation!https://youtu.be/dxwJVagX-qUCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Transcript to follow.Copyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Joseph Merrill was an apostle who died in the 1950s. He advocated strongly that science & faith need not be in conflict. A former VP of the U of Utah, he advocated for theological training for LDS Seminary teachers, and he was the person who hired the first seminary teacher. Thomas Yates was the first seminary teacher in an experiment that became a staple of LDS education of high school students. Joseph Merrill was not only the science apostle, but was the first person to conceive of released-time seminary in the Granite Stake on the west wide of Salt Lake County. Dr Casey Griffiths shares more of Joseph Merrill's life and his leadership over the LDS Institute of Religion. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/Mbb95VgpRX8Copyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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I'm excited to have Dr Casey Griffiths back on the show. He's a Church History professor at BYU and we're going to talk about 2 of his newest books, 50 Relics of the Restoration & Truth Seeker. He's the incoming JWHA president, and we'll talk about several relics from other restoration groups, including James Strang's sceptre, and a cricket team called the Islamabad Moronis! We'll also discuss a science apostle, Joseph Merrill. Merrill advocated for theological training for LDS seminary teachers, and believed science showed the existence of God. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/boV2k--TynoCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to followCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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We're continuing our conversation with Dr Trevan Hatch, a Jewish studies scholar at BYU. We'll dive deeper into Jesus relationship with the Pharisees. Dr Hatch says Jesus & the Pharisees were friendly with each other, and that the Gospel of Matthew made them enemies. Are Gospels historical? Is calling someone pharisaical anti-Semitic? We'll also dive into the story of Barabbas? Was his first name Jesus? What else can we find out about that event? Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/X1U5d9Uqnw0Copyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Transcript to follow0:00 Pharisees were Friends (not enemies) of Jesus1:52:11 How Matthew Made Pharisees the Enemy1:59:46 Why "Pharisee" is anti-Semetic2:11:39 When were Gospel Written?2:16:42 Barabbas2:27:20 Are Gospels Historical?2:44:22 When Christians Separated from Judaism2:49:42 BYU Reaction2:51:00 Learning of the JewsCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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I’m excited to have Dr. Trevan Hatch on the show. He’s a Jewish Studies scholar! Trevan works at the Harold B Lee Library and teaches New Testament classes at BYU. We’re going to cover historicity of the Gospels. What are common misconceptions of the Christmas story? Did Jesus ask Judas and Peter to betray and deny him? Are the Gospels historically reliable? I think Dr. Hatch’s answers will surprise you as we take a deep dive into the Gospels and the life of Jesus. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/YEONxX75WKUCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.transcript to follow0:00 Meet Dr. Trevan Hatch/New Testament History8:20 Who was "Stranger in Jerusalem" Written for?13:58 How Tall Were Goliath & Jesus?19:13 What Do We Get Wrong with Christmas Story?31:05 Are Gospels Historically Reliable?34:33 Is Judas Death Reliable?37:59 Did Jesus Ask Judas to Betray Him?53:45 Why did Peter Deny Jesus?59:24 Was James (not Peter) 1st Christian Leader?1:17:20 Why Jews Wouldn't Eat with GentilesCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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We're continuing our conversation with David Hocking, author of LDS Annotated Scriptures. This time we're going to focus on his amazing scriptures with the Book of Enoch and Book of Jasher. We'll learn more about why David felt it was important for LDS audiences to see these books which are considered scripture in other Christian groups. We'll also see his amazing work on the Book of Isaiah, including both JST and Book of Mormon differences. Finally, we'll talk about his latest book, the Joseph Smith Translation of the New Testament. David has done some amazing things with it. You won't want to miss our conversation. Check it out....https://youtu.be/-oGXd3cWvUsCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Book of Jasher Part 2InterviewGT 00:32 All right, so we've gone through the Book of Mormon. Is there anything else on the Book of Jasher that you wanted to add on that, or have we covered that pretty well? David 00:38 Well, yeah. The Book of Jasher has something that's very fascinating to me, that I've never had anybody explain to me, why we have the office of Seventy in the priesthood. How did that come about? You don't read it--you read a little passage in the New Testament, "And he sent out 70." GT 00:55 Right. David 00:55 "And they came back with a report." And then you also... GT 00:59 And there's the Septuagint, which means 70. David 01:01 Yeah, you have 70 people that put it together. But what is this term Seventy? And we have the office of Seventy. So, I think that the Book of Jasher may have, at least, a taste of what, perhaps, could be the derivation of the office of Seventy. And it goes back to Joseph, and it goes back to the Tower of Babel. So, in the Book of Jasher, the Tower of Babel has confounding of the language. But Jasher has it as the Lord sent 70 angels to confound their language. So, there's going to be the original 70 new languages, versus the Adamic language. So, now, that's an interesting number, 70. The other thing that's interesting about those 70 angels, in the Book of Enoch, they give you the names of those 70 angels. So, that's interesting, as well. So, 70 is important. David 02:00 So, the next thing you read in the Book of Jasher, you go through, now you're getting the story of Joseph. He's the Hebrew that's been sold as a slave. He's in a prison. And now he's interpreting dreams. The prisoners love what he's interpreting. Now, the pharaoh wants his dream [interpreted.] But the people say, "You can't talk to this Hebrew, unless he knows the 70 languages of the kingdom." So, symbolically, everything in the scriptures has symbolism to it. Now, what is the symbolism? The symbolism is, in the nighttime, an angel comes to him and teaches him the 70 languages. The next day, he ascends to the pharaoh on 70 steps. He talks a language on each step, and he finally gets to where the Pharaoh is. And he now is second in command. So now you have a Hebrew from the house of Israel, in a Gentile nation. And what is his purpose? It is to save that nation and the house of Israel. And he is the emollient to that nation. And he is an example to that nation. David 03:15 And what is the office of Seventy? What is their calling? It is to take the gospel to the Gentiles. So, for me, the office of Seventy may refer to that story, based on the 70--now there's more than 70 languages today. But that's the derivation of it. And I also further project that imagery or that symbolism when Peter says, "How many times are we supposed to forgive somebody?" Three times or whatever? David 03:45 He says, "No, you have to do it seven times 70." So, again, what is the symbolism of that? Is it 490? Is it a number? Or is it a symbol of something? So, seven, also is seven dispensations until the judgement, and 70 goes back to what, I think,

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Have you ever wanted to get more resources for the Book of Mormon? David Hocking has put together an amazing resource, the Annotated Book of Mormon. We're going to dive deep into his edition. It's a beautiful book, with not only gold leaf, but he has the words of Jesus in red, similar to those red letter Bibles. I was surprised to learn the LDS Church hates red lettering! David will tell us more about his dealing with Church leaders over this edition. Check out our conversation...https://youtu.be/K6osuaogbT0Copyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Transcript to follow.Copyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

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Originally scheduled for a museum in England, the COVID pandemic changed things. Ship Captain Phillip Beale had the Phoenicia ship cut into pieces. Half of Lehi's ship was returned to England, while the other half was sent to Iowa for reassembly. The problem was, there were no instructions on how to re-assemble the ship! Enter Mike Stahlman. He's a bit of a modern-day Nephi as he has to rebuild a replica Phoenicia ship as it would have appeared when Philip Beale sailed it from the Middle East to Florida. Mike tells more about a real-life 3-dimensional puzzle. Check out our conversation....https://youtu.be/xWTXmeJ6aakCopyright © 2022Gospel TangentsAll Rights ReservedExcept for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.Meet Mike StahlmanInterviewGT 00:16 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have one of the best engineers on the Phoenicia ship. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where you're from? Mike 00:48 My name is Mike Stahlman. I'm originally from Pennsylvania. I lived there for 33 years, and then I gathered to the Center Place in Independence, where I've lived for the last 33 years. GT 01:02 So, you've been both places. I'm trying to find out. Is your background LDS or Community of Christ? It sounds like you've been in both of the major cities there. Mike 01:13 Well, I was actually raised Catholic. And I had my conversion experience where I met our Lord and Savior when I was 20 years old, at which point, I joined what was then known as the RLDS [Church], and I have an absolutely unshakable belief and faith in the Book of Mormon. And the RLDS for all intents and purposes no longer exists. I am a member of what is known as an Independent Restoration Branch, who are former members of RLDS, who did not want to go along with the direction that the now Community of Christ decided to go. GT 01:58 Okay. I don't know if you know, Patrick McKay. Do you know, Patrick? Mike 02:02 Yes, I do. GT 02:03 Patrick, I just interviewed him. He's going to be on here next week. He's an apostle with the JCRB. Would you be considered part of the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches? Mike 02:13 No, actually, the groups that are part of the movement that I'm in are simply congregations that were ruled out of order by the RLDS and basically kicked out of their buildings. So, those groups bought their own buildings, and have remained as independent congregations until now. The JCRB, some of those congregations banded together to form the JCRB, but quite a few didn't. So, I frequent the ones that didn't. GT 02:52 Okay. Mike 02:53 I've got nothing against them. And I'll attend our services and I'm friends with many of them. There's no animosity. It's just that, scripturally, I didn't feel I could go that way. GT 03:07 Okay. So, does your branch have a specific name? Mike 03:12 There are several that my wife and I attend. The one we've been going to lately is known as the South Crysler Restoration Branch, because their church had originally been on South Crysler Street in Independence, but their new building--once they were kicked out and had to get a new building, it's now on Salisbury Street. So, it's a little confusing, the name South Crysler, but you're not on Crysler Street. GT 03:38 Okay. I drove by there a few years ago. I wish I could remember that guy's name. I'll have to show you a picture, later, and see if you know him. But they were working on the fence. I always thought it was [pronounced Cry-sler] Street, but you said [Chris-ler], huh? Mike 03:53 Correct, it's [pronounced Chris-ler]. GT 03:55 Yeah, I'm trying to remember. Anyway, that's interesting. All right. So, how did you get involved with the Phoenicia? Mike 04:05 Well, I was following Wayne May for years. I used to get his magazine,

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We’re continuing our discussion about the Phoenicia Ship. Heartlanders think Lehi’s ship was built similarly. Mike & Betty LaFontaine were instrumental in purchasing the ship and shipping it back to Iowa for re-construction. We’ll learn more about how they did that, what they did when the ship sank, and more! Mike & Betty are both […]

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Yuri & Vera Sanada are experienced sailors. Hailing from Brazil, they contacted Philip Beale to join his journey aboard a 600 BC Phoenician ship to both circumnavigate Africa and sail to America! Yuri is a documentarian, and chronicled the journey via film. Rick Bennett spoke with them about their journey through pirate infested waters of […]

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Philip Beale is a former sailor in Her Majesty’s Navy. Hailing from the U.K., Philip always had the desire to re-create the voyages of ancient sailors. He has sailed ancient Indonesian ships, and when he discovered the ancient Greek historian Herodotus claimed Phoenicians sailed around the African continent, he was bound to re-create the voyage. […]

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I discovered that Dr Lefgren is the president of the Heartland Research Group. The group has recently purchased a replica of an ancient Phoenician ship that non-Mormon Captain Philip Beale sailed around Africa, likely the same route that Lehi sailed to come to America. We’ll discuss more about John’s involvement with the Heartland Research group. […]

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When did the First Vision take place? Dr John Lefgren and Dr John Pratt worked together to come up with a date: March 26, 1820. Dr Lefgren discusses how he used weather records and understanding of maple syrup making to confirm Dr Pratt’s proposed date. We’ll talk more with John Lefgren to discover how he […]

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We’ve just reviewed the Mesoamerican model for the Book of Mormon with Brant Gardner. Now I’m going to ask Brant to review other geography theories, including Baja, Malay, Africa, & Heartland. We’ll also discuss faith and science. Check out our conversation… Copyright © 2022 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content […]

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I’m excited to have a Mesoamerican expert on the show. Brant Gardner is an antropologist, and he tells why he thinks the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. We’ll talk about anachronisms, and Brant will give his take on the other theories, from Africa to Baja to Heartland. Can a faithful person believe in […]

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This is a re-release of our interview from 2017 with Dr. Mark Staker. We’re going to talk about Kirtland history. While I knew there was an early convert named Black Pete who likely held the priesthood, I was surprised to learn that Black Pete may have introduced speaking in tongues and polygamy to the Church! […]

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Patrick McKay is an apostle for the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB.) He’ll discuss breaking away from the RLDS Church, and his attempts to unify the Restoration Movement. We’ll talk about how he uses the Book of Mormon to do that. I’ll also ask him about archaeological, DNA, and other problems with the Book […]

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We’re continuing our conversation with Joe Jessop, LDS grandson of AUB leader Rulon Allred. This time we’re going to get into sticky Mormon Fundamentalists topics. How many wives do you need to get into the Celestial Kingdom? Do they still believe in the race ban in the AUB? We’ll get into more history & doctrine […]

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I’m excited to introduce Joe Jessop. He’s the LDS grandson of polygamist leader Rulon Allred. Joe will talk about growing up in the Apostolic United Brethren (that’s Kody Brown’s group for those of you who watch Sister Wives), and we’ll learn more about how the group is organized. Do they have a prophet or a […]

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As we continue our conversation with Dr. Todd Compton, we’ll discuss some of the more controversial marriages of Joseph Smith. Fanny Alger was just 16 years old in 1833. Was her marriage to Joseph that early, or as late as 1836 as some claim? We’ll also discuss Sylvia Sessions Lyon. Was she having sexual relations […]

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Dr. Todd Compton is the author of a couple of books, both of them called In Sacred Loneliness, but the new one is subtitled, The Documents. So we’re going to talk a lot about both of his books, In Sacred Loneliness and In Sacred Loneliness: The Documents. These are two fantastic books. We’re going to […]

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This is a re-release of our interview from 2017 with BYU professtor Dr. Richard E Bennett, my name twin. We’re going to talk about temples, especially how LDS Temple worship evolution over the past 2 centuries in the LDS Church. How much did the Kirtland Temple cost? How is Masonry involved? What changes have been […]

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I’m excited to have Newell Bringhurst back on the show. Newell’s latest book is the short biography of Harold B Lee. Lee had one of the shortest tenures as LDS Church president, but that belies his lasting influence on the Church. Lee is the one who really implemented correlation in the Church. We’ll talk about […]

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We’re continuing our conversation with Nauvoo Crime expert Mary Ann Clements. Up to now, we’ve been discussing counterfeiting, but now Nauvoo’s crime families are getting involved in murder, and several of the criminal gangs are turning on each other as well as citizens. I was surprised to learn that the state government used these charges […]

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Sometimes I feel like I discover an amazing talent in Mormon history. You probably haven’t heard of Mary Ann Clements. She calls herself a stay-at-home mom, but she has training in anthropology, history, genealogy, and is an amazing writer. We’re going to talk about her detective work in Nauvoo crime. Were Nauvoo leaders counterfeiters? It […]

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We’re continuing our conversation with Shannon Caldwell Montez, the author of the Secret Meetings of 1922. We’ll learn more about people who attended these secret 1922 meetings, including apostle Richard Lyman. He was the last apostle to be excommunicated for adultery, or was it polygamy? We’ll get into those details. Check out our conversation…. Copyright […]

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Shannon Caldwell Montez has written an amazing thesis on the Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922. BH Roberts was an influential Seventy at the turn of the 20th century. He seems to be the first leader who recognized problems with the Book of Mormon. He presented his findings to church leaders, and eventually spoke to Mormon […]

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Here’s another classic from the archives. This is the first time we’ve released the entire interview of Dr. Paul Reeve. The interview occurred back in January 2017. Paul discusses his amazing book, “Religion of a Different Color.” We’ll discuss the race ban for blacks excluded from the temple & priesthood, Paul’s role with the Gospel […]

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Did you know there are over 500 Mormon Denominations?! Rick Bennett won’t cover them all but will give a guided tour of some of the groups that date to the time of Joseph Smith, as well as some of the newest groups out there! I’ll introduce you to several Mormon schisms. Check out our conversation… […]

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This is a re-broadcast from my very first podcast from January of 2022. I’m excited to interview Margaret Young. She’s a professor of English and Literature at BYU and has written eight books, three of which are on black Mormon pioneers, so she’s kind of an expert on the topic. She has also produced a […]

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Patrick Mason holds the Leonard Arrington Chair in Mormon Studies at Utah State University. He’s written a couple of books on Mormon violence & peace. We’ll touch on the Mountain Meadows Massacre, whether the Book of Mormon promotes peace, violence, or both, and we’ll touch on the recent kerfuffle between him and John Dehlin over […]

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We’re continuing our conversation with Craig Foster & Dr Newell Bringhurst. We’re going to dive deeper into modern-day polygamists beliefs, including their continued ban on black members. What are their justifications? We’ll dive into some other groups like Centennial Park, Apostolic United Brethren, and more scholarship on these modern polygamists. Check out our conversation… Copyright […]

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I’m excited to have a newcomer and an old-comer on the show. This is Newell Bringhurst’s 3rd time on the show and Craig Foster’s first! They’ve co-written 4 books: 3 on polygamy and one on Mormon Presidential candidates. It wasn’t just Joseph Smith! We’ll dive into candidates like George Romney, Bo Gritz, Sonia Johnson, and […]

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Dr Jesse James discusses the Fowler Stages of Faith, and whether the spirit can be manipulated. We also discuss a good definition of evangelicals, and how different denominations came about. Check out our conversation… Transcript will be posted here as soon as it is completed.

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Dr Jesse James is a research psychologist and assistant professor at Graceland University in Lamoni, Iowa. He gives a scientific explanation for spiritual experiences. We’ll get into artificial intelligence, free will, whether chimpanzees can communicate with humans, and lots of other topics! Check out our conversation… Copyright © 2022 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except […]

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We’re continuing our conversation with Bill Russell, a former professor at Graceland University. We’ll talk about RLDS views of apostasy as well as the breakup of the RLDS Church following the 1984 revelation on women & priesthood. We’ll also discuss Jeff Lundgren, a man who committed mass murder in Kirtland, Ohio based on the story […]

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Bill Russell is one of my favorite Community of Christ historians. He taught at Graceland University, and told Bruce Jenner to train hard for the 1600 meters in the Olympic Decathlon. We’ll learn about RLDS history, and his unorthodox beliefs. Check out our conversation… 00-1100 Coaching Bruce Jenner 1100-2440 Early RLDS History-Lineal Succession 2440-3929 Succession […]

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Lachlan MacKay is one of the historians who helped authenticate the Joseph Smith daguerreotype that appears to be the prophet Joseph Smith. Lach is not only a descendant of Joseph Smith, but he is also an apostle for the Community of Christ. We’ll talk about how he authenticated the photo, whether it could be Hyrum, […]

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I’m excited to announce that Trevor Miller is the contest winner for Visions of a Seer Stone by Dr. William Davis. I also want to remind some of my new listeners that I value respectful comments, especially on my YouTube page. Rude comments will be deleted and/or blocked.

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We don’t usually discuss current events on Gospel Tangents, but we’re going to make an exception. Jennifer Roach is a former Anglican pastor, and experienced sexual abuse from her Baptist clergy as a teen. She has a unique perspective on the latest AP News article about a sexual abuse case in Arizona. She is also […]

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Dr. William Davis takes exception to the traditional timeline for Book of Mormon Translation. He says Joseph knew about it as early as 1823. He also says Joseph was trained as Methodist Exhorter, which helped him in translation. Joseph wasn’t as illiterate as some claim. We’ll talk about laying down heads, and criticism of William’s […]

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Dr. William Davis uses his training in Shakespeare (and chiasmus) and applies it to the Book of Mormon. Is chiasmus less unique that some claim? Dr Davis says yes. We’ll also talk about translation in general. Bill assisted with translation of LDS Scriptures into the Maori language. Check out our conversation…. William Davis on Book […]

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We’ve been talking a lot about the different atonement theories lately. I put together this 30 min clip of Rev Willie Grills and I discussing the different atonement theories. I hope you can check out the other conversations with Dr. Terryl Davis, Dr. Chris Thomas, and Paul Toscano. The link to see them all is […]

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I get requests to talk to people outside of Mormonism. I’m excited to introduce a non-evangelical, run of the mill Lutheran pastor, Reverend Willie Grills from Arkansas on the show. We’ll talk about Lutheranism, Mormonism, how protestants don’t just pick on Mormons but fight amongst themselves, and Willie will even ask me some questions about […]

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In Part 2 of our conversation with Dr. John Dehlin of the Mormon Stories podcast, we’ll get into his criticism of the LDS Church. Is he a constructive or destructive Mormon critic? Is his podcast neutral towards the Church? Does he want people to Stay LDS? We’ll get into his tussels with both apologists and […]

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I’ve got the biggest fish in Mormon podcasting! In this first episode, we’re going to talk to Dr. John Dehlin about his dating an Oscar-winning actress, Renee Zellweger. Oscar Winning Girlfriend GT: I’ve never met anybody that dated an Oscar-winning actress. So, we’ve got to go there first. Who is this person that I’m talking […]

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There are going to be some changes here at Gospel Tangents. I’m hoping you’re going to like them better! Please listen to my special announcement, and then comment below to let me know what you think!

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Eugene England seemed to one of those crossing the brethren’s line with some of theological musings. Recently, Fiona Givens did as well with her discussion of Heavenly Mother. I asked Dr Terryl Givens if it was easy to unintentionally cross the brethren’s line. GT: Well, now it feels like the Church just kind of vacillates […]

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Why did Jesus die for us? Was he a moral teacher, or did his death substitute for our sins? Why does God require someone to die for sin? We’re going to dive into atonement theories with Dr. Terryl Givens. Atonement Theories Terryl: The early church, the first couple of centuries didn’t seem to concern themselves […]

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Gene England was one who liked to ask the hard questions at Church. It definitely caused Gene trouble with Church leaders. Has it gotten any better since Gene died? Dr. Terryl Givens is going to answer. Hard Questions at Church GT: Is it okay to ask hard questions in the LDS Church? Terryl: I think […]

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Following a stint at St. Olaf’s College in Minnesota, Eugene England sought employment at BYU. He also helped start a Mormon history magazine called Dialogue. Was that magazine a problem for his employment at BYU? Dr. Terryl Givens answers. Terryl: [Gene] was desperate. He had a wife. He had several children by this point. He […]

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I just finished a biography of Eugene England called “Stretching the Heavens” by Dr. Terryl Givens. I loved it and felt a real kinship to Dr. England, despite having never met him. I’m excited to talk to Dr. Terryl Givens to discuss Gene’s life. I was surprised to learn that Terryl at first turned down […]

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Why did Christ die for us? That has been a topic of debate among Christians for centuries. We’re going to delve into Atonement theories. Was Christ a moral teacher? Did he really pay the price for an infinite number of people’s sins? GT: But one of the other things I wanted to talk about, that’s […]

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Paul Toscano has some opinions on LDS Apostles, and he’s not going to hold anything back! Paul: I know that some of them do love the Lord. But when you hear some of them speak, you wonder how could they love the Lord and say things like Dave Bednar says, and not be able to […]

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Polygamy has been tightly intertwined with the Adam-God Theory. Some say that’s the reason the Adam-God Theory is no longer a doctrine in the LDS Church. Does Paul agree with that? Paul: But I believe the text is a visionary text that’s trying to tell us something about the nature of reality that’s deeper than […]

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The scriptures concerning God the Father and Jesus Christ are quite confusing. Even protestant explanations of the trinity are confusing. Paul Toscano notes the Book of Mormon shows Christ’s role reversal. Christ’s Role Reversal Paul: First because I’m [God is] responsible for creating a world where bad things can happen. Second of all, because I […]

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In a recent interview with Pentecostal theologian Dr. Christopher Thomas, he said the Book of Mormon is quite trinitarian. Paul Toscano disputes that assertion. Paul tells why he thinks the Book of Mormon isn’t Trinitarian. Paul: I talked about the atonement. And I said, the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus is a supreme being. […]

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Scripture symbolism is tough. So is LDS Temple symbolism. Paul Toscano has a book, “The Serpent & the Dove” that explains temple symbolism. That may surprise you, because he is infamous for his excommunication as part of the September Six. We’ll touch on that briefly, but, we’ll talk about the nature of scripture and temple […]

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When Matthew Gill was called as prophet of the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ, he claims that Joseph Smith returned to ordain him prophet. Ordained by Joseph Smith GT: Did you receive like an angelic ordination to be prophet? Matthew: Yes, that took place in 2006, and that was by Raphael. That was on the […]

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Matthew Gill is prophet of the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ. He tells why he thinks Joseph didn’t practice polygamy. Anti-Polygamy Stance GT: I’m going to try really hard not to argue with you about polygamy, but can you just give some justifications why you think Joseph Smith was not a polygamist? Before 2005, did […]

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I was surprised to learn the LDS Church sued Matthew Gill, essentially to shut down his church. Matthew tells more about the suit. Sued by LDS Church Matthew: Then, one day, I come home, from taking my boys out, and I’ve got this big envelope with the LDS Church stamped all over it, and I’m […]

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Matthew Gill is a prophet of the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ. He claims to have translated an ancient record of the people of Stonehenge. What were their religious practices like? Are they Christians? Pre-Jewish Christian Religious Practices GT: So, as far as the religious practices, because this predates Abraham and Moses and everything, would […]

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Matthew Gill claims to have translated an ancient record of the people of Stonehenge. We’ll learn more about them. Are they related to Book of Mormon peoples? Jaredites & Book of Jareneck Matthew: The plates were written by a prophet called Jeraneck. Okay? Jeraneck was the last prophet of the people before they were destroyed. […]

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Matthew Gill is prophet of the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ, based in the UK. We’ll learn about his growing up in the LDS Church, his visions, and translating plates of an ancient record of an ancient people in the British Isles. Leaving LDS Church GT: What led you to leave the LDS Church? Matthew: […]

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I’m excited to introduce Matthew Gill. He’s a prophet in the UK for the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ. We’ll learn more about his scriptures. He’s translated a record of ancient peoples in Britain! Intro Matthew: Sure. My name is Matthew Gill and I am the Prophet and first elder of the Restored Branch of […]

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Following the Mormon expulsion from Missouri, someone made an attempt on Missouri Gov Boggs’ life. Most people think it was Porter Rockwell. What does historian Steve LeSueur have to say about the matter? Gov Boggs Assassination Attempt GT: Oh, except for I guess we forgot about the assassination of Gov Boggs. Actually, I wanted to […]

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Joseph Smith spent about six months in Liberty Jail following the Mormon-Missouri War of 1838. Historian Steve LeSueur talks more about the court hearings, and Joseph’s escape from jail, (or was he let go by the sheriff?) Liberty Jail Hearing Steve: Yes, and it appears that he was let go by the sheriff. So, he’s […]

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The darkest chapter in Mormon-Missouri history occurred when 17 Mormon men and boys were killed at the Hawn’s Mill Massacre. Hostilities between Mormons and Missouri state militia led Joseph to surrender, and he was actually sentenced to death during a court-martial. Historian Steve LeSueur tells us more. Hawn’s Mill Massacre GT: Can you just give […]

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Apostle David Patten was the first LDS martyr, killed in the Battle of Crooked River trying to rescue LDS hostages from a Missouri militia. Exaggerated reports that Mormons had wiped out an entire Missouri militia were not true but caused Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs to issue the Extermination Order which said that Mormons must be […]

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Many faithful LDS scholars have tried to distance Joseph Smith from the Danite raids that took place in Missouri. But how responsible was Joseph for Danite actions in Missouri? Historian Steve LeSueur answers. Was Joseph Responsible for Danites? GT: Tell us what you think about Joseph Smith’s involvement with the Danites was? Steve: Well, one […]

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As we mentioned before, the Danites were initially aimed at dissenters within Mormonism. When did they turn outward toward Missouri troubles? Historian Steve LeSueur answers that question. Missourians Worry about Danites Steve: On the one hand, although we can’t pinpoint, for sure, “Well, this is the point.” In August, at the Gallatin Election Battle, as […]

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Following the Kirtland Bank failure in Ohio, Joseph Smith fled Kirtland and came to Missouri. Then things started to fall apart there as well. Historian Steve LeSueur talks about both Missouri vigilante mobs, as well as the Danites, an extra-legal force with at first was designed to keep Mormons in check. Danites GT: Well, that’s […]

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After Joseph Smith declared that the New Jerusalem would be built in Jackson County, Missouri, the saints were kicked out of the county. How much of a role did that play in later hostilities? Historian Steve LeSueur says that things were relatively peaceful between 1834-1838, in large part due to the perceived Caldwell County compromise. […]

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I’m excited to introduce historian Steve LeSeuer. Back in 1987, Steve wrote an amazing book called The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri. It won the best book award for the Mormon History Association. We’ll get more acquainted with Steve and learn more about his background. I was surprised to find out he was mapping Mormon […]

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Dr’s Richard and Claudia Bushman’s latest project involves promoting LDS artists. I asked about how they got involved, and whether LDS art is getting more historically accurate. Is LDS Art Getting Better? GT: Do you think LDS art is getting better? I know some critics have complained that, especially, like with Joseph Smith translating the […]

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Some LDS scholars get in trouble with Church authorities: Michael Quinn, Maxine Hanks, Lester Bush, to name a few. Yet others like Dr. Richard & Claudia Bushman can write about controversial topics and not get into trouble. Why is that? I asked Richard & Claudia their answers to these questions. Scholars Get in Trouble GT: […]

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We’re continuing our conversation with Dr’s Richard & Claudia Bushman. I asked Claudia more about her writings on women in church history. Women in History Claudia: When I went to graduate school, I decided that I was going to do a study of women. I was the first person that ever had thought of that […]

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Saints Volume 3 is coming out soon, part of the first update of Church history in almost 100 years. But did you know that back in the 1970s, Dr. Richard Bushman was part of a project to update Church history? The project was scuttled, and Richard gives more details on that project. Richard: Yes, I […]

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Dr. Claudia Bushman helped re-start a Mormon women’s publication called Exponent II. She will talk about how she did that as a busy graduate student, mother, and how Church leaders felt about the Equal Rights Amendment. Exponent II Claudia: He said, “Well, why don’t you start a newspaper?” This was not a completely new idea, […]

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I’m excited to introduce a pair of amazing historians: Dr Richard Bushman, and his wife, Dr. Claudia Bushman. We’ll learn more about their backgrounds in Mormon history. Claudia is the incoming president of the Mormon History Association meetings coming up next month in Logan, Utah. She’ll give us a preview of the conference. Mormon History […]

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The Act in Relation to Service legalized slavery in Utah in 1852. Dr. Sally Gordon tells more about how the statute affected both Indian & black slavery in Utah. Indian & Black Slavery Sally: There are many different kinds of slavery. Native slavery was widely practiced here in Utah, across the West, and had been […]

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Dr. Sally Gordon spoke at BYU for the Religious Liberty conference in March. I asked her to give any advice to religious leaders. Advice to Religious Leaders GT: Do you have some advice for religious leaders on these kinds of–I’m going to use the word culture war issues: abortion, gay marriage, gay rights, that kind […]

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Antonin Scalia’s polarizing religious decision in 1993 seems ready for the chopping block. The Supreme Court justice wrote a decision that limited the free exercise clause of religion. Dr. Sally Gordon, a constitutional scholar from the University of Pennsylvania says court watchers expect this decision to eventually be reversed. Scalia’s Polarizing Religious Decision GT: It […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full, uncut interviews or Gospel Tangents Website for transcripts. In 1962, the Supreme Court banned school prayer. It was a controversial decision to be sure, but Dr. Sally Gordon says that opinion paved the way for religious studies programs at state universities. School Prayer Banned Sally: Of course, and I love […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full, uncut interviews or Gospel Tangents Website for transcripts. Kody Brown is the polygamist and star of the tv show Sister Wives. He sued the state of Utah to remove the polygamy prohibition in the Utah Constitution. Kody Brown’s polygamy case won at the federal level, but lost on appeal. Dr. […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full, uncut interviews or Gospel Tangents Website for transcripts. What are the legal complications of polygamy? Kody Brown recently filed a lawsuit to make polygamy law legal. While interracial marriage and even gay marriage are easily accomodated in U.S. law, Dr. Sally Gordon says polygamy law is much more complicated because […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full, uncut interviews or Gospel Tangents Website for transcripts. The Republican Party platform of 1856 was founded to eradicate the “twin relics of barbarism: slavery & polygamy.” Why would they link the two together? Dr. Sally Gordon explains a political reason to tie the two together that you may not be […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full, uncut interviews or Gospel Tangents Website for transcripts. Have you ever wanted to do internet temple worship? It turns out David & Kristine Ferriman of the Church of Jesus Christ in Christian Fellowship have their own internet temple worship. Internet Temple Worship David: The other one talks about building the […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. We’re going to learn more about David’s angelic ordination in our next conversation with David & Kristine Ferriman, co-presidents of CJCCF. We’ll learn more about their unification movement and a little bit more about their church. Angelic Ordination David: Words can’t describe it. I had […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. David & Kristine Ferriman lead the Church of Jesus Christ in Christian Fellowship as co-presidents. We’re going to learn more about their wide-open canon. They believe a lot of scripture from a lot of different not only Mormon movements, but they are open to even […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. I’m excited to introduce Kristine & David Ferriman from the Church of Jesus Christ in Christian Fellowship. It’s really kind of a unity movement, and they cater to those with “spiritual PTSD.” We’ve going to learn more about their beliefs. I love this saying. They […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. Jonathan Neville is a big-tent proponent when it comes to Book of Mormon beliefs. Part of that likely stems from Heartland being shut out of groups like Book of Mormon Central. But Jonathan is also wants to keep the tent open for people who believe […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. Jonathan Edwards was an early preacher in Joseph Smith’s Day, kind of like a Billy Graham of the time. Jonathan Neville has discovered passages in the Book of Mormon that are found in the Book of Mormon. Is this evidence of plagiarism, or is there […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. Is the Book of Mormon a translation, or complete fiction? Heartland expert Jonathan Neville says that evidence of composition is evidence of translation. What does that mean exactly? Jonathan: But what you’re leading into, though, is a really important point, maybe this is the last […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. The biggest problem with the Book of Mormon deals with DNA and archaeology that doesn’t seem to match Native Americas. How does Jonathan Neville, an expert on the Heartland Theory, deal with the Mormon DNA problem? GT: Of course, there are critics: Thomas Murphy, Simon […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. The Book of Mormon ends with a great battle with millions killed near a hill called Cumorah. Yet no bones were found near the Hill Cumorah. How does Jonathan Neville reconcile this? He’ll describes more of the Heartland Theory of Book of Mormon. Jonathan: So, […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. Critics of the Book of Mormon say the geography is so vague that it could take place anywhere, or no where. Jonathan Neville weighs in on that issue,and tells more about the Heartland Theory of Book of Mormon. GT: It’s funny that you mentioned that […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. When the Book of Mormon was first published, and even for a century onward, most Mormons believed the Book of Mormon covered the whole of North & South America. But most scholars of Book of Mormon geography now believe that the area was much smaller […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. Another one of the major differences with the Heartland Theory is that Lehi crossed the Atlantic, rather than the Pacific Ocean as Meso claims. Jonathan Neville will tell us why he thinks this is the case. GT: But I think for most, almost every geography […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. What is the M2C Citation Cartel? One of Jonathan Neville’s biggest issues is with the traditional Book of Mormon scholars is what he calls the M2C Citation Cartel. These scholars won’t accept any Book of Mormon geography theories outside the Mesoamerican theory. GT: It’s funny […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. Joseph Smith was listed as the editor of many newspapers in his day. Some people attribute things about Book of Mormon geography to him in these newspapers, but Jonathan Neville disputes the idea that Joseph Smith endorsed these geography claims. Jonathan: [Joseph Smith] visited John […]

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Subscribe at Patreon.com/GospelTangents for full interviews or Gospel Tangents Website. I’m excited to introduce Jonathan Neville. He is an expert on the Heartland geography theory of the Book of Mormon. In this first episode, we’ll get acquainted with him,find out his Church history background, and find out that he was originally a proponent of the […]

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Polygamy skeptics complain that their work isn’t taken seriously. I’m going to issue a challenge to them to get peer reviewed. GT: Well, I think this all brings us up to the idea that if the polygamy skeptics want to be taken seriously, they’ve got to become peer reviewed, don’t they? Mark: Yeah, if they […]

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Polygamy skeptics love to claim that D&C 132 is a revelation forged by Brigham Young, and note the revelation wasn’t written in Joseph Smith’s handwriting. They conveniently forget that almost every revelation was written by scribes. We’ll look into this charge with Mark Tensmeyer and see if there is evidence of a forged revelation. GT: […]

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Polygamy skeptics love to point out that DNA evidence has ruled out Joseph as the father of several possible polygamous unions. But is there no evidence of polygamous pregnancies in Nauvoo? Did John C. Bennett perform abortions? GT: All right. So, another couple of the topics that I’d like to address are the rumors about […]

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Joseph Smith was involved with Fanny Alger in some type of “girl business” probably around 1836, and Oliver Cowdery referenced this in 1838. What other types of evidence exists of polygamy in Kirtland? Mark Tensmeyer will tell us more. GT: I’d like to start out talking a little bit about some of the Kirtland-era rumors about […]

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The LDS and RLDS Churches have fought about Joseph Smith’s polygamy for a century. Is there 3rd party evidence that could settle this? Mark Tensmeyer discusses evidence outside the two churches that can help settle the matter as to whether Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Mark: Another section, after William Marks is dead, there’s one of […]

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What polygamy evidence is there in the Nauvoo period? Mark Tensmeyer will tell us about the Sarah Pratt case, Hyrum Smith before the high council, and other evidence polygamy was secretly practiced by Joseph Smith in the Nauvoo period. Mark: There is the deal where in January 1844, Joseph and William Law are holding a […]

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I think most people agree that polygamy was practiced secretly in Nauvoo. Polygamy skeptics like to blame it on Brigham Young, but even if that were true, what types of secret evidence would we expect to see? Would that apply to Joseph if he was secretly practicing polygamy as well? https://youtu.be/McB1kRr8N28 Mark: Yeah, you have […]

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Polygamy skeptics claim that a religious group out of Maine introduced LDS apostles about spiritual wifery, and those apostles (not Joseph) introduced polygamy into the Church. Is there good evidence for this? Mark: So, what they is that they come up with this new narrative that the Quorum of the Twelve were rogue, pretty much […]

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The RLDS Church has historically claimed Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy. We’ll talk about Joseph Smith, III’s views on the topic, as well as modern-day beliefs. Mark: So, the argument they have, there’s a book that was written in 1900 that’s the most comprehensive book on the RLDS part of a narrative. It’s written by […]

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In a conversation with Denver Snuffer, he claimed that if we threw out all evidence after Joseph Smith died, there is little evidence Joseph practiced polygamy. While I’m sure that’s an appealing tactic of a defense attorney, is that something a judge would allow? I’m excited to introduce Mark Tensmeyer, an attorney from Texas and […]

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The House of Aaron is a group of Messianic Christians. What are their worship services like? What is their church structure, and how large is this group? Dr. John Conrad is chief high priest and will answer these questions. GT: Do you have any temples or anything like that? John: One of the things, in […]

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What scriptures do they use in the House of Aaron? Does it include the Book of Mormon or other scriptures? Dr. John Conrad is chief high priest and will answer these questions. GT: Let’s jump back to Scripture. So, it sounds like the Bible… John: The Bible is our basis. The Levitical writings. GT: The […]

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Last time we discussed the story of Abraham and Isaac, a troubling story in the Bible. This time I’ll ask Dr. John Conrad about polygamy. Do they practice polygamy in the House of Aaron? I’ll also ask about his views on gay marriage and the LGBT community. John: Yeah, Mormonism is a puzzle to me […]

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The House of Aaron is on the Utah-Nevada border. LDS are practically everywhere. How do they get along with their LDS neighbors? Do they consider themselves a Restoration group? Dr. John Conrad is chief high priest and will answer these questions. GT: All right. So, you wouldn’t really consider this like a breakoff or a […]

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I’m excited to introduce you to the House of Aaron, located on the Utah-Nevada border that practices the Law of Consecration, and celebrates many Jewish holidays. You could call them Messianic Christians. We’ll learn more about this group with Dr. John Conrad. John: My name is John Conrad, and you are at the community of […]

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Joseph Smith’s revelations outline the size of each priesthood quorum. Did you know the Kirtland Temple had assigned seats for each person in these quorums? In our conclusion with David Hall, chairman of Hall Labs, he tells us what Joseph envisioned with church organization. David: What happened is, most historians and most people, logically, think […]

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David Hall’s father Tracy was the man who invented synthetic diamonds. We’ll learn more about David and his father Tracy, founder of Hall Labs, and how David got interested in building Joseph Smith’s visionary city. GT: Well, I’d also like to hit a little bit about both you and your dad, because your dad is […]

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Joseph Smith planned for 100,000 people packed into a small area. David Hall tells how he would keep people healthy with water purification systems and clean transportation, alongside 24 temples in the city. GT: But wow, it was just cool. The idea here is, and this is what I want. I want to bring it […]

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Joseph Smith’s plans for a temple could house an NBA basketball court, an Olympic size swimming pool, and still allow important temple rites to be going on. David Hall, chairman of Hall Labs tells us more about these temples and his amazing ideas to keep people healthy. David: Right. See, right now we’re trying to […]

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Joseph’s visionary city of Independence was well ahead of its time. In fact, it is probably ahead of our time. David Hall, Chairman of Hall Labs, says it will take 100 years to build Joseph’s visionary city, and he’s trying to do it! David: Well, you’ve got to think of, the plat gives you the […]

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A lot of people think Joseph used King James English in the Book of Mormon. However, David Hall, Chairman of Hall Labs says that Joseph used William Tyndale’s 1530 English. He tells us why we need to look at Tyndale’s definitions in order to better understand Joseph’s revelations. GT: We talked about you know, Joseph […]

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Did you know Joseph’s original plans for Kirtland and Independence was to have 24 temples? David R. Hall, chairman of Hall Labs will tell us more about these surprising plans Joseph had. GT: Now you say 24 presidents, I know some of them, but, I’m not sure of all of those. We’ve got a deacons […]

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We’re going to get acquainted with David R. Hall, Chairman of Hall Labs in Provo, Utah. He’s an amazing inventor and gets his ideas from Joseph’s planned city. We’ll get more acquainted with Joseph’s plans for Independence and Kirtland. Susbscribe at my website or on Patreon. David: My name is David Hall. I’m the son […]

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I stepped into The Cultural Hall with Richie T. Steadman, and he asked me my thoughts on The Cultural Hall. Richie: Now. Rick, I need to ask you what I always love and I love to save to the end. Have you ever actually listened to an episode of The Cultural Hall before? GT: Yes, […]

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Richie Steadman of The Cultural Hall Podcast asked me more about some Mormon groups. We’ll talk not just about some old Mormon groups, but discuss MHA, Sunstone, and the JWHA. Richie: The other thing I want to ask you is you said you became a member of the Mormon History Association. Where do I pay […]

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Back in Nov 2019, I sat down over Zoom with Richie T Steadman of The Cultural Hall Podcast. He asked about my background. Richie: Rick Bennett is one of those names that I’m like, I feel like I know 10 Rick Bennetts. Right? Like it’s a common name or like, you know, like, you could […]

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We’re into part 3 of our look at Book of Mormon geography theories. This time, we’ll cover 3 of the more popular theories: South America, the Heartland, and Mesoamerica. GT: I will tell you what. This was one of the first Book of Mormon geography models that I had ever heard. About 20 years ago, […]

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We’re continuing our series on Book of Mormon geography theories. This time we’ll hit Malay, Baja, and New York geography theories. GT: The next theory that’s definitely different is the Malay theory by Dr. Ralph Olsen. Ralph passed away about five years ago, unfortunately. I actually spoke with Ralph before he passed away. This is […]

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Where did the Book of Mormon take place? There are probably more theories out there than you know. I’m going to share a Zoom presentation I gave May 10, 2021 to a Community of Christ group. In part 1, we’ll talk about internal maps, the Middle East, and an African Theory of the Book of […]

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We lost Will Bagley Sept 28, 2021, due to complications from a stroke. As we end 2021, we’ll look back at our 2020 interview where he talks about Juanita Brooks, some of his awards, and his reasons for writing history. Will: Okay. This is what will probably be my next to last book. I’m still […]

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As 2021 winds down, we’re looking back on the life of Shannon Flynn. Shannon earned a degree in history from the University of Utah. He relocated to Gilbert, Arizona where he and Robyn successfully ran a small business for nearly two decades. He was a longtime member of the Mormon History Association and a published […]

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Curt Bench was one of the most beloved members of the Mormon history community. As we look back at those we’ve lost in 2021, I wanted to share some highlights from my 2017 interview with Curt as we discussed the Mark Hofmann bombings. Curt passed away on August 17, 2021. Curt: Well that night I […]

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On April 21, 2021, we lost an amazing historian, Michael Quinn. As we end 2021, I wanted to look back at those we lost. This interview was recorded Nov 3, 2017 and I wanted to share some of the highlights of the interview. GT: I know in the 1980s you wrote […]

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As we wind down 2021, I wanted to remember those we’ve lost. Armand Mauss died Aug 1, 2020, but had a chapter published posthumously in Newell Bringhurst & Matt Harris’s book, The Gospel Topics Series. Matt & Newell share their thoughts about this amazing scholar. GT: We’d like to talk a little bit about Armand […]

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So far, we keep referring to this group as “The Brazil Group.” But what is the official name of this church? John: So, the short name we use, instead of having to say, it’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints founded/headquartered in Brazil. That is a mouthful. We’re doing the short name. […]

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The late Dr. John Pratt says there are 3 churches of Mormonism. He’ll talk about the purpose that each church fulfills. John: The restoration branches. This is really important. There are three main restoration branches, and the Lord has worked with all three of them, and each one is doing a job. Brigham Young, even […]

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What’s in the sealed Book of Mormon? The late Dr. John Pratt tells us what is in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon that Mauricio Berger translated. John: I’ll tell you what’s in the part that it has been published. There’s three main books in it. The first is called the Words of […]

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In a previous conversation with Dr. Casey Griffiths, Casey said that a South American group used a Hofmann forgery to authenticate the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. The late Dr. John Pratt pushes back on that charge, and we’ll talk about the Brazilian golden plates. GT: That’s a great place, because I wanted […]

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Have you heard about the Brazil Plates? The late Dr. John Pratt is going to tell us more about them! GT: Okay, so, tell us about the Brazilian group. How did you get associated with them? John: Somebody in April of 2019, a friend sends me a link and says, “Hey, a guy in Brazil […]

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The late Dr. John Pratt grew up a member of the LDS Church for decades, but recently has joined with some other restoration movements. He shares with us his journey with the Denver Snuffer movement. GT: So, I definitely want to go there, but I want to talk about that time where you’re a good […]

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Critics of the Joseph Smith claim that there are anachronisms in the First Vision. I asked the late Dr. John Pratt about how he handles these problems with anachronisms. Subscribe at https://GospelTangents.com or https://Patreon.com/GospelTangents GT: So, the next question is, we kind of have a little dispute between Dan Vogel, who’s not a believer, and […]

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When did the First Vision take place? The late Dr. John Pratt says it was March 26, 1820. That calculation is based on the Enoch Calendar. We’re going to take a deep dive into calendar systems and find out how John came up with that date. John: So, in the grand years of 364, he’s […]

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Thanksgiving is the unoffical start to the Christmas season. I’m both excited and sad to share this episode with our listeners. I’m excited to introduce you an astronomer, Dr. John Pratt. In this first episode, we’ll talk about dating both the First Vision and the birth of Christ. It turns out that John says these […]

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Dr. Christopher Thomas of the Pentecostal Theological Seminary discusses similarities and differences with Mormon Culture. We also learn about the structure of the various Pentecostal Churches. Chris: Well, the version of Pentecostalism I grew up in is the Holiness tradition. And there were real clear kind of dress mores. I mean, the women seem to […]

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As we’ve mentioned before, publication of the Book of Mormon pre-dates the Pentecostal movement by almost 8 decades. What are some examples? Dr. Christopher Thomas teaches at the Pentecostal Theological Seminary, and he shares his thoughts about speaking in tongues in the Book of Mormon. Chris: Then, the next big section of the book, I […]

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There are lots of troubling stories in scripture: the sacrifice of Isaac, the banishment of Hagar. I’m going to get personal and share some of my spiritual struggles with these stories with Dr. Christopher Thomas, a theologian at the Pentecostal Theological Seminary. How will he respond? GT: But, at any rate, the whole story about […]

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Should evangelicals be scared of the Book of Mormon? Pentecostal scholar Dr. Christopher Thomas says most of the theology in the Book of Mormon is thoroughly protestant! Does that surprise you? Chris: Well, aside from the fall, and aside from Jesus appearing so often so early, the Book of Mormon is pretty, kind of, Protestant. […]

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One of the things that attracted Pentecostal scholar Dr. Chris Thomas to the Book of Mormon were the many episodes of speaking in tongues. It should be noted that the publication of the Book of Mormon predates the modern Pentecostal movement by about 80 years! How did that get into the book? Chris: I was […]

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What do evangelical scholars think of Book of Mormon theology? We’ll find out when Dr. Chris Thomas gives the book a serious, scholarly treatment. Chris: I was interested in what’s actually in the book. So, there are certain categories that you would expect. What does the book say about God, about Jesus, about the Spirit? […]

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The Book of Mormon is known for talking about lots of wars, eventually ending in the extermination of Nephites. But is the central message a pacifist message? Dr. Christopher Thomas teaches at the Pentecostal Theological Seminary and made a startling discovery. The story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies is in the exact center of the book. He […]

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Lots of people would like outsiders to look at the Book of Mormon in serious ways. I’m excited to introduce Dr. Christopher Thomas. He teaches at the Pentecostal Theological Seminary in Cleveland, Tennessee, and is a New Testament scholar. We’ll get acquainted with him and his book, “A Pentecostal Reads the Book of Mormon,” and […]

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Many critics point out that there are anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Native Americans didn’t use steel, there were not horses, elephants, etc, so why are they mentioned in the Book of Mormon? Brian: For me, I think anachronisms are the weakest criticism of the Book of Mormon for several reasons. First off, we […]

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Wordprint or stylometry studies try to identify the author of a text. Studies have tried to prove ancient as well as modern authorship. What does Brian Hales think of these studies? Is there a gap in Book of Mormon authorship? GT: Well, I know there’s been a lot of wordprint studies trying to identify [a […]

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What skills were needed to write the Book of Mormon? Brian’s going to dig into Joseph Smith’s background. Did Joseph have the education and oral skills to write the Book of Mormon? GT: One of the one of the things [Colby Townsend] mentioned was illiterate in Joseph Smith’s day didn’t have the same connotation that […]

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We’re continuing our conversation with Dr. Brian Hales on Book of Mormon authorship. What are some naturalistic explanations are there to explain how Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon? Brian will tackle a few more theories, such as automatic writing, as well as Bill Davis recent book, “Visions in a Seer Stone.” […]

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Ever since the Book of Mormon was first published, critics have tried to figure out its authorship. Did Joseph Smith plagiarize the book from other sources, such as Solomon Spaulding or other collaborators? Dr. Brian Hales tells more about these collaborator theories for Book of Mormon authorship. Brian: I’ve isolated eight different theories that people […]

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I’m excited to have Dr. Brian Hales back on the show. It was 8 years ago that Brian Hales published his 3-volume set on Joseph Smith’s Polygamy. How has that held up? How does Brian address critics of his work? Brian: You know, there’s always critics. But, recently, my friend Larry Foster, and others have […]

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Micronesia, Guam, Truk. You may have heard of these islands, but what do you really know about them? Devan Jensen is writing an LDS History about these islands and will give us a sneak peek into his upcoming book. We’re getting an early preview. Devan: It turned out there was a topic. They were coming […]

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It’s incredibly easy to get into arguments on social media on topics like masks, vaccines, immigration, guns, politics. How do we talk to those with whom we disagree? Devan Jensen had some ideas, on how we can use more charity in difficult conversations. GT: Of course, we have almost 100 years of fighting with them. […]

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Devan Jensen is the president of the LDS Publishing & Media Association. What is it exactly, and who is it for? Devan will introduce us to the group, and even give it 2 discount codes to attend meetings in October. Devan: I’m Devan Jensen and I work in Church publishing. I’m an editor and a […]

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W.W. Phelps was editor of the Times & Seasons in 1844 when Joseph Smith was killed. He not only gave the funeral sermon for Joseph & Hyrum but played a critical role in resolving the Succession Crisis. He embraced polygamy, got excommunicated for it for 2 days, and then helped start up the Deseret News […]

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W.W. Phelps assisted with the translation of the Book of Abraham. Amongst believing scholars, there is a bit of a civil war over the Book of Abraham, and Phelps plays a role in that dispute. Dr. Bruce Van Orden will discuss why believing scholars disagree. GT: I know we talked a little bit about the […]

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W.W. Phelps was one of the best writers in Mormonism. It should come as no surprise that he assisted Joseph Smith in the First Vision account. Dr. Bruce Van Orden gives more details. Bruce: Officially, Joseph Smith became the editor [of the TImes & Season] for eight months in 1842. But the problem is Joseph […]

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The Danites were a Mormon vigilante group who tried to fight back against Missouri mobocracy. Were they good guys or bad guys? W.W. Phelps & Thomas Marsh both testified about Danite actions in the Mormon-Missouri War in 1838. Both men were lumped in with the apostates and were excommunicated. Dr. Bruce Van Orden is the […]

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The years 1836-1838 were some of the most tumultuous in Church history. Events included the Kirtland Banking Crisis, the Fanny Alger affair, excommunication of high church leaders including Oliver Cowder, Thomas Marsh, and the Whitmer brothers. There were lots of changing alliances and not only a civil war among the Mormons of Missouri, but Mormons […]

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Following the Kirtland Banking Crisis, many were disillusioned with Joseph Smith’s leadership. Thomas Marsh was among those who helped Joseph clear out the disaffected, and he set his sights on a disgruntled W.W. Phelps. Dr. Bruce Van Orden, biographer of W.W. Phelps and author of We’ll Sing and We’ll Shout, will tell us more about […]

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W.W. Phelps was deeply involved in editing a political newspaper prior to joining the Church and was no stranger to partisan political fights. When he and the saints arrived in Missouri, trouble followed quickly. Was Phelps to blame for the poor reception in Missouri? Dr. Bruce Van Orden, biographer of Phelps and author of We’ll […]

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W.W. Phelps is one of the best known leaders in early Mormon history that wasn’t an apostle. Dr. Bruce Van Orden is the author of We’ll Sing and We’ll Shout, a biography of WW Phelps. I knew that Phelps was a newspaper editor prior to joining the Church, but I was surprised to learn that […]

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I hope you have enjoyed our conversation with Steven Pynakker, evangelical host of Mormon Book Reviews. In our next conversation, Steve will tell us some of the future plans for his channel, including an episode about Mormon Doctrine in Battlestar Gallactica! Steve: Season two, because I’m not at home. During the summer, I spend my […]

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Recently the LDS Church announced the seismic improvements and removal of the beautiful murals in the Salt Lake Temple. Steve Pynakker is the evangelical host of Mormon Book Reviews and he asked me what I thought about the announcement. To say I’m disappointed in the removal of these pioneer-era murals in an understatement. Steve: It […]

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Steve Pynakker, evangelical host of Mormon Book Reviews and I got together again on August 27 to celebrate his 50th video on his podcast. Steve attended his first Mormon History Association meetings in June, and he discusses his experiences at the recent meetings in Park City, Utah. Steve and Rick Bennett discussed the recent loss […]

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What does the future of Mormon history look like? Steve Pynakker is the evangelical host of Mormon Book Reviews. He and I sat down to talk about recent events that surprised us, as well as what the future of Mormonism might look like. Steve: what does the future of Mormonism look like to you? GT: […]

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Some people don’t like the academic study of the Bible and think the two are incompatible. That’s not the case with Steve Pynakker, evangelical host of Mormon Book Reviews, and myself. We’ll talk about some of the biblical stories that cause us to struggle. Does that help strengthen faith? GT: Patrick[Mason] is one of the […]

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Steven Pynakker is the evangelical host of Mormon Book Reviews. He and I sat down to discuss why I started Gospel Tangents. https://youtu.be/iouxMa6tZBg GT: When I went back to get my master’s degree, I quit my job, and decided to go back to school and I got a part-time job. I had a lot more […]

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Mormons, myself included are often clueless, about protestants and evangelicals? What’s the difference? I asked that question to Steven Pynakker, host of Mormon Book Reviews, and he gives his best answer. GT: You’ve got your Catholics. You’ve got your Protestants. You’ve got your evangelicals, and I don’t really understand what’s the difference between a Protestant […]

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I’m turning over the interview microphone to an evangelical! Steven Pynakker is the host of Mormon Book Reviews, and he wanted to learn more about me, Rick Bennett. But I have some questions for him too. How did an evangelical get interested in Mormonism? Steve: Then I also have to say that growing up, I […]

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Fiona Givens recently resigned her position at BYU’s Maxwell Institute under pressure from Church leaders over her speculation that the Holy Ghost might be Heavenly Mother. Dr. Margaret Toscano says this is an ancient Christian belief and wonders why Church leaders were bothered by Givens bringing it up. Are Church leaders scared of Heavenly Mother? […]

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Dr. Margaret Toscano gives a summary of her essay in the “Gospel Topics Series” book edited by Dr. Matt Harris & Dr. Newell Bringhurst. Toscano outlines 6 counterpoints to the Women and Priesthood essay. Margaret: I’ll quickly do my six areas where I think Joseph did confer Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood to women through their […]

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LDS Priesthood encompasses both spiritual and ecclesiastical aspects. Dr. Margaret Toscano compares and contrasts her position on female priesthood with that of Dr. Jonathan Stapley. Where are they similar and where do they converge? Margaret: Both Jonathan and I say, yes, if you look at 19th century views on the priesthood, not just women in […]

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Given the mixed-gender makeup of the Quorum of the Anointed, if LDS women were granted priesthood office, would they be priests or priestesses? Should they continue to be segregated by gender or combined into a single quorum? Dr. Margaret Toscano sees advantages and disadvantages to both structures. GT: We talked about priest and priestess, king […]

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The Quorum of the Anointed was a special quorum founded by Joseph Smith just prior to his death in 1844. It was unusual in the fact that both men and women were members of the quorum. Dr. Margaret Toscano discusses how this quorum should inform our understanding of women and priesthood. Margaret: There’s a book […]

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The Gospel Topics essay on women and priesthood references a 2014 talk by Elder Dallin Oaks. Dr. Jonathan Stapley said this talk was groundbreaking by saying that women in the LDS Church exercise priesthood power as they perform their callings. Does Dr. Margaret Toscano agree with that interpretation? Margaret: First of all, the idea that […]

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In a previous interview with Dr. Jonathan Stapley, he stated that when early Mormon women healed, it wasn’t through Priesthood. Dr. Margaret Toscano disagrees with Jonathan’s position. Margaret: I think that there’s quite a bit of evidence to show that. Again, I think that the big difference [between Jonathan and me is how we connect […]

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In our last conversation, Dr. Margaret Toscano explained what she liked about the Gospel topics essay on women and priesthood. This time, Margaret will look at weaknesses of the essay. Margaret: My general critique really centers around two things. On the one hand, I feel like that they’re not willing to look at all of […]

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We’re continuing our series on the “Gospel Topics Series” book, edited by Dr. Matt Harris and Dr. Newell Bringhurst. Dr. Margaret Toscano is back to discuss the Gospel Topics essay on Women, Temple, and Priesthood. We’ll find out more of her background in writing the book and discuss the essay’s strengths. Margaret: I’m excited that […]

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We got acquainted with the Malay Theory last time, and we’re going to continue on with KC Kern and Greg Pavone to find out some other considerations. What are some things that really add strength to the Malay Theory? GT: I mentioned Simcha Jakobovici, which is a horrible name to spell, in relation to the […]

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Where did the Book of Mormon take place? Most people think it is in Central or South America, or maybe North America. However, we’re going to talk about the most unusual theory around called the Malay Peninsula, as in Malaysia, as in Southeast Asia. It’s a very unusual theory. It’s a fun theory, and we’ll […]

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As you know, KC Kern and Greg Pavone hit pay dirt and found the Mormon Cave. Now we’re going to talk about the dig inside the cave where they tried to clear it out. What did they find in the cave? Greg: So, at the base of the cave, there were these wooden boards, and […]

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KC Kern & Greg Pavone feel like they have enough evidence to find the Mormon Cave. But how will the property owner react? GT: So, this was the same house that a few years before you had knocked on and they weren’t home. Is that right? Greg: One year before, yes. KC: Like six, nine […]

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KC Kern and Greg Pavone are amazing researchers. They dug into the historical records to find out more about the legend of the Mormon Cave. We’re going to talk about the research they conducted and find out more about how they pinpointed where the cave actually was. KC: Lorenzo Saunders—in 1822 he’s about 11 or […]

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We’re continuing our archaeological excavations of Joseph Smith Senior, this time in New York. I’m excited to introduce KC Kern and Greg Pavone, a couple of accidental archaeologists. We’ll find out how a Church history vacation turned into an archaeological expedition in search of the Mormon Cave! Greg: Of course, that brought us to Palmyra, […]

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In a previous conversation with historian Dan Vogel, he indicated visions of Jesus were common among Methodists in Joseph Smith’s day and questioned why a Methodist minister would object to Joseph’s account of a vision. I asked Dr. Mark Staker to weigh in on that issue, and Mark tells why he thinks a minister may […]

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Lucy Mack Smith had dreams that were very similar to some mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith Sr., on the other hand, was much more rational with regards to religion. What else can Dr. Mark Staker tell us about the Smith religious background, following his latest archaeological dig at the “Joseph & Lucy […]

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What was Joseph Smith Jr’s religious upbringing like? It turns out his parents were quite different. Joseph Sr, might be describes as spiritual but not religious, while Lucy was more of a visionary. We’ll learn more about their family religion with Dr. Mark Staker. GT: Can you talk a little bit about the dynamics of […]

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Dating in the late 1700s wasn’t quite the same as today. In our next conversation with Dr. Mark Staker, author of “Joseph & Lucy Smith’s Tunbridge Farm,” we’ll learn more about how Joseph Senior met his future with Lucy Mack Smith. Mark: Lucy, then comes into the picture. Joseph meets her, down in the village. […]

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Joseph Smith was born in Vermont before his family fell on hard times financially and move to New York. What is known about the Smith’s Vermont farm? I’m excited to introduce Dr Mark Staker who has conducted a study of the Smith farm in his new book “Joseph & Lucy Smith’s Tunbridge Farm.” Mark: Our […]

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The LDS Church prohibited black men and women from receiving priesthood rites in the temple until 1978. Should the Church apologize for past racism? Emmy award winning director Loki Mulholland will weigh in on that issue. Loki: The Church already is doing, believe it or not, work and reparations, in the respect of the work […]

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Let’s face it. Race is a tough subject to bring up. Is there ever pushback from black people when white people talk about racism? We’ll talk about white people leading conversations about race with Emmy award winning director Loki Mulholland. Loki: I mean, this is just to fair, because racism is a white person’s disease […]

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The LDS Church has had a rough history when it comes to race, so it may surprise you to find out that one of its members has made several award-winning documentaries, including an Emmy dealing with racism. We’ll talk about these award-winning films from director Loki Mulholland. Loki: “An Ordinary Hero,” which is about my […]

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Joan Trumpauer Mulholland began protesting for civil rights in the early 1960s and was part of many of the important civil rights protests of the decade. Her son Loki has become an Emmy-award winning director and in our next conversation, we’ll talk about why he made a film about his mother’s activism. Loki: By the […]

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Did you know slavery was still legal in Utah until 2020? We’ll talk about the drive to remove this provision in the Utah Constitution with an Emmy-award winning director, Loki Mulholland who directed the film “The End of Slavery.” Loki: My latest project is called “The End of Slavery: the Fight for Amendment C.” It’s […]

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What is the Chicago Experiment? Back in the 1930s, LDS Church leaders sent employees to be trained in theology. They came across some sticky theology topics such as evolution, the Documentary Hypothesis, and whether multiple people wrote Isaiah. Would the Church re-entrench on faith, or accept secular methods to understand the Bible? Dr. Casey Griffiths […]

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Historians don’t usually talk about the future, because they are historians! In our next episode with Dr. Casey Griffiths, he will talk about what he thinks will be the biggest future events in church history, as well as what some events of the recent past will make impacts in future Church history. Check out our […]

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Orson Pratt is less famous than his older brother, apostle Parley P. Pratt. But it could be argued that he has had a bigger impact on the Church than Parley did. From polygamy to the First Vision to his theological arguments with Brigham Young, Orson Pratt is one of the unsung people who has shaped […]

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We’re continuing to discuss some of The 100 Most Important Events of Church History. We will talk about how observance of the Word of Wisdom has changed. We will also see who is closer to Joseph Smith’s observance. Is it the LDS Church or Community of Christ? Casey: At any rate, Heber J. Grant is […]

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What is the best beginner book to learn Mormon history? Back in 2016, Dr. Casey Griffiths said there really wasn’t a book, so he set out to make one. We’ll talk some of the important events over the past 2 centuries in another one of his books: The 100 Most Important Events of Church History. […]

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Not many people know that Joseph Smith not only had a pistol in the Carthage Jail. Did you know he fired at the mob? Some critics say this is evidence that Joseph didn’t go like a lamb to the slaughter. Is that fair? Dr. Casey Griffiths, author of 50 Relics of the Restoration, will show […]

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Did you know there was an official swimsuit of the Los Angeles Temple? Casey: The temple swimsuit, which like I said, those two things seem a little incongruent. This is the temple swimsuit, for those of you that are out there. There was a lady named Rose Marie Reid, who was a member of the […]

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There is a group in South America that claims to have access to the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. What proof do they have? Is this a recycled Hofmann forgery? Dr. Casey Griffiths, author of 50 Relics of the Restoration will tell us more. Casey: If you go back and look through the […]

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It seems like most lay members of the Church don’t hear much about the LDS Church working on interfaith councils. Fewer know about Mormon schismatic groups. I was surprised to learn that Dr. Casey Griffiths in on an interfaith council with other schismatic groups. We’ll get acquainted with Casey, talk about his new book 50 […]

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Early Mormon apostle Orson Pratt probably did more to keep the memories of the First Vision alive in the LDS Church more than any other person. In our next conversation with Dr. Steven Harper, author of “First Vision: Memory and Mormon Origins” we’ll talk about Orson’s outsized influence. Steven: I think it’s likely that if […]

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What are the main differences between the First Vision accounts? Why are they different, and are these differences significant? Dr. Steven Harper is the author of “First Vision: Memory and Mormon Origins” and he will weigh in on these issues. Steven: Excellent question. So, the 1832 and 38 are autobiographies. They are strategic memories. Joseph […]

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As we mentioned in a previous conversation with Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith’s First Vision was quite similar to Methodist visions of Christ of the day. Dan says it doesn’t make sense for a Methodist minister to question Joseph’s vision. I asked Dr. Steven Harper, author of “First Vision: Memory and Mormon Origins” to weigh in […]

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Dr. Wesley Walters was one of the first people to question Joseph’s Smith’s account of the First Vision, saying there were no reports of revivals near Palmyra, NY in 1820 as Joseph Smith claimed. Is there another way to interpret this? BYU Professor Steven Harper is the author of “First Vision: Memory and Mormon Origins” […]

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Critics of Joseph Smith’s First Vision account claim that Joseph changed his accounts over the years, resulting in contradictions between the four primary accounts. Could there be other ways to explain these discrepancies? Dr. Steven Harper from BYU has written a book called “First Vision: Memory and Mormon Origins” that seeks to answer some of […]

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