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Against the mounting backdrop of rising global temperatures, record-breaking extreme weather, and the UK's wettest winter on record in 2024, governments and major corporations are increasingly retreating from climate commitments. The EU reported concerning rise in greenhouse gas emissions in 2024, the UK has postponed key net zero targets, Germany has scaled back renewable investments, (let’s not talk about the US) and fossil fuel giants such as Shell, BP, and TotalEnergies have revised or deferred climate pledges and clean energy projects, citing economic pressures and regulatory uncertainty. As we witness the global momentum on climate action wane — particularly in the West, where initiatives have been de-prioritised and progress has slowed — the urgency for innovation and collaboration has never been greater.

In the latest episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, I explore the evolving landscape of climate justice with Ashok Sinha, a prominent climate and social justice activist and current CEO of Ashden - a climate solutions charity. Ashok co-founded the UK Make Poverty History campaign; was a key figure in the Jubilee Debt Campaign; a Director at Stop Climate Chaos (now the Climate Coalition) – playing a pivotal role in securing UK’s Climate Change Act 2008; he was also the CEO of the London Cycling Campaign.

Ashok brings critical insights from his extensive experience at the forefront of landmark campaigns and policy change, offering a pragmatic perspective on the challenges and opportunities ahead for climate action worldwide. We also spoke about

👉🏾 The urgent need for collective action, and the importance of partnerships and coalitions in driving impact

👉🏾 The role of the private sector in accelerating and deepening change and the need for regulatory frameworks that encourage investment and innovation

👉🏾 The significance of storytelling in climate advocacy and how personal narratives can galvanise support for sustainable practices and policies

👉🏾 Climate misinformation/disinformation

👉🏾 AI as a risk or an enabler for the sector; Climate fatigue; Skills shortage in the sector

We also spoke about Just Transition - advocating for equitable opportunities for marginalised communities affected by climate policies and changes. Ashok ended the conversation with an unwavering belief in humanity’s capacity to overcome adversity and foster positive change through collective effort and resilience.

Collaboration #Inspiration #ClimateAction #Sustainability #SocialJustice #ClimateInnovation #JustTransition #ClimateLeadership #ClimateSolutions #Ashden

ClimateJustice #ZeroCarbon

Episode Transcript:

Sudha Singh: Good morning, Ashok. Thank you for being a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Ashok Sinha: My pleasure entirely Sudha. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Sudha Singh: Let's start with a quick introduction. Who is Ashok Sinha? How would you describe yourself as a climate activist, evangelist or campaigner?

You do have a great track record for leading some great campaigns including Make Poverty History, Climate Coalition, London Cycling Campaign. Wow.

Ashok Sinha: Well, that's kind of you to say.

I have done a lot of different things, so I, find it quite hard to categorize myself and it's not something I normally try to do actually. I'm not sure how sensible or useful it is.

It all started with me because I loved science and I studied physics and did a Ph.D. in, energy systems modelling and then climate change research and then went into policy and advocacy. So it's a range of activities but focused around energy, climate and broad, more broadly sustainability.

I'll use that term it's a highly interpretable term but at the same time in, in my own personal life, I've always been very concerned about what contribution I can make to you could call it social justice for want of a better word. It started when I was in sixth form and I, I, I volunteered in our local hospital. I just wanted to make a contribution and so I've always volunteered, served on board like Amnesty UK and, and so on. Currently on the board of Friends of the Earth Charitable Trust.

When I get up in the morning, I just want to do something useful, I want to make a contribution and so, chairing the London Sustainable Development Commission as well, broadening out the whole issue around, environmental sustainability connected with, improving people's well-being and increasing the level of equity and happiness and quality of life for people. So I guess, what would I say? I guess science led worker for advocate for sustainability.

Sudha Singh: We tried to put everything into one word. It's really difficult considering your vast experience and like you said, I think stressing on the science based is very, very.

Ashok Sinha

Critical in today's, that's really important to me.

Ashok Sinha: It comes to the social justice side of the, of the, the work that we all do. Evidence, data.

Sudha Singh: So, moving from there, tell me about your current role in Ashden and what its priorities are.

Ashok Sinha: Well, it's a, it's a very great privilege to, to lead Ashden. Ashden was founded 25 years ago this year by a woman called Sarah Butler Sloss and she's one of the group of philanthropists that come together within an umbrella organisation called the Sainsbury's Family Charitable Trust. So there's a variety of organizations there, most of them are philanthropic. Ashden itself started as a grant giver but then it split into two organizations. The grant making was retained in an organization called Aurora Trust. And we, we have to raise our own money to go out and do work in the world.

But it started as an awards ceremony, an annual awards program. And at that point 25 years ago it was based on shining a spotlight and it still is. The awards shining a spotlight on unseen innovators who are tackling the climate emergency. Then it was innovators in the global south, the global majority working on clean cooking and solar in particular.

But over the 25 years the awards and Ashden itself have broadened out to look at clean energy and renewables, nature-based solutions and the ways in which they can be promoted. It could be financial mechanisms; it could be ways of organizing for profit and not for profit. We look at those sorts of organizations and we give them awards and we give them support.

Yes, but we also have programmatic work now and the biggest program is our schools program called ‘Let's Go Zero’, which is across the whole of the UK but in England in particular. We have advisors across the England working directly with schools to help them decarbonize by 2030, and other programs in the UK working with community energy organizations, supporting local and community groups who are finding their way, towards creating new nature-based solutions to help adapt their local communities to the level of climate change that is coming through the system.

Sub Saharan Africa, a big program on clean energy access, a new program that we have working to help indigenous peoples and local community groups raise livelihoods as a means of protecting tropical forests. So it's a range of activity that has been spawned from the initial annual award. But the theme essentially is reducing carbon, adapting to the climate change.

It's already locked in but doing it in a way that delivers for communities, for local people, for local areas especially taking an area-based approach to put it all together. And the final point, I would say is we know that we're not going to change the world by ourselves. We're not going to try. We wouldn't have that level of hubris. So it's incredibly important. Ultimately, we're storytellers fundamentally to tell those stories to people who have the hands on the levers of power, whether it's finance, whether it's policy, whether it's regulation, politicians to say, look, this stuff works.

Ashok Sinha: You can liberate this innovation, you can bring the different components of systemic change together and you can scale and accelerate those solutions. You know, there's great people doing stuff, great stuff out there, but to hit our targets, you've got to support them, and this is how you need to support them.

Ashok Sinha: And we work very collaboratively with others. So lots of organizations who are good at political engagement, good at community engagement.

And so we don't, we don't, we don't try to do everything, but our contribution is, is the great stories.

Sudha Singh: And are there any campaigns that you're particularly proud of?

I tell you what, there's a couple of things that I am really proud of. So going back to 2005, I was, I was appointed as the director sort of at the head of what was then called Stop Climate Chaos, which is now called the Climate Coalition. And at that point the coalition was just five organizations.

Ashok Sinha: Major green groups and People on Planet. And they said, right, go on, build a, build a coalition, broad based coalition. That's going to be popular in, you know, try and drive popular support for, for political action in climate change. And it's a big ask. But because of work I'd done previously, I had a lot of contacts across a variety of sectors. Anyway, so I pulled a team together and we all went out into the world and within a very short space of time, within about, about a year, we were, we had our first event and in that, that was in Westminster Central Hall. And in that event, you had not just the green groups, we called it carbon speed dating.

And I'll explain Why in a second you had the green groups, Friends of the Earth, Green the conservation groups, RSPB, WWF, Oxfam, Christian Aid, xxxxx, Mothers Union, Women's Institute, right. We built that coalition and they were sitting there in that room and we were inviting politicians to come to these tables and do carbon speed dating, to talk to groups of activists, integrated cross sectoral groups of activists at each table to engage with what our ask was, which at that point was, you know, action to keep global warming under 2 degrees C. And the first person through the room was the opposition leader, David Cameron, who would soon be the minister not long after that. And that made me very proud. I sat back and thought, you know what? We, we have, we've done this, we've pulled together people from a huge variety of sectors to work together. We call it climate justice now.

And the real clincher for me was a few months later I was standing at a rally, I was opening and closing a rally in Trafalgar Square. And in front of me were 20,000 people from all over the country. Their starting point may have been anti-poverty campaigners; it could have been conservation. But there they were in Trafalgar Square saying we want action and climate change. People talking across those agendas, that was a great, that was a great feeling.

Sudha Singh: Yeah, that sounds like an amazing campaign.

Sudha Singh: What a success. Right? Not just a one off. Something is, it's still thriving. So that's, that's amazing.

Ashok Sinha: Do we have time? The other one for me is after spending so much time working on national and international questions and frankly, finding it really hard work.

Where progress is so slow. I thought, I want to spend a bit of time working on something, an issue where I can see the change when I get up in the morning and step outside the front door. I've cycled since I was a kid and I had been previously on the board of the London Cycling Campaign and they needed a CEO, so. And they chose me. This really is meaningful to me because at that point. We didn't really have cycle tracks in London, not like the kind of cycle tracks we have now. You had some blue paints on the road, you know, stick on the cycle, on the blue paint, you'll be safe. And I drew all the expertise.

Everything I've learned from previous campaigns to. To say to the cycling movement London, we've got to be popular. We've got to be singular in what we ask for. We've got to make it something that anybody, whether they see themselves as a campaigner or not or a cyclist or not, can get behind anyway.

We created a very populist campaign called Love London Go Dutch around the 2012 mayor election. And we managed to get 10,000 people out onto the street cycling around London.

And we did various other things and we secured a commitment from all the mayoral candidates to a slate of asks. Boris Johnson was elected as mayor and he not only agreed to all of those asks, but he implemented them.

We said we need three big local area schemes to show how the Dutch approach works. They put £100 million against this for three showcase schemes called Mini Hollands, named after our campaign in London, and various other things. And when you see that change directly happening, we asked for this. Now look at London, right? Look at them. Look at the number of people cycling.

Look at the cycle tracks that we have. Things have changed that feel that is so rewarding. It's nowhere near good enough yet, but I see that, you know, where they exist, the safe cycling facilities and people using them. Happily, I Think. Yeah, that was a change.

Sudha Singh: Amazing. And all these things, they are very beneficial for the communities. these are not vanity campaigns. At the end of it, there is infrastructure that changes and helps communities and people to get around in cheap, safer, sustainable ways.

Ashok Sinha: You just see one, one person with a kid on the front of their bike, on the back of the bike, and they're safe and they're enjoying it.

Ashok Sinha: Now, I do it because I'm an environmentalist. Right. And I believe in sustainable cities. But this family, cycling safely is nothing better.

Sudha Singh: Absolutely, absolutely. How important, Ashok, are partnerships and collaborations? You mentioned collaborations for success.

And what is the role of the private sector in accelerating and deepening this change? Also, is there a way to incentivize them to engage with and invest in innovations for local communities? Because all of it cannot be government.

You need money from somewhere.

Ashok Sinha: It's a massive question. So on the point about partnerships, vital. So I was talking earlier about coalition campaigning. Well, that's a partnership.

And within that there were partnerships of experts and campaigners from across the coalition who sat together and we worked through the challenges in front of us together we worked through the, the approaches that we would adopt to, to rise to those challenges. And so that's collaboration.

As I was saying earlier, we can make a contribution through our storytelling to the. So the change we want to see in the world but can't do it ourselves. We're not experts, nor, nor should we try to be across all, all areas.

And when you're talking about working, you mentioned communities.

Sudha Singh: Yeah.

Ashok Sinha: But there's no ethical justification for parachuting in and saying, hey, this is what needs to happen here. Right.

You have to work in partnership with people who have legitimacy to speak for those communities and act for those communities.

Sudha Singh: Yeah.

Ashok Sinha: As I say, ethic, ethical considerations aside, it won't work at really. So partnerships are absolutely critical to any of the progress, achieving, any of the progress we want to achieve. You mentioned the private sector. There is no way on earth that the, the clean energy transition in the UK to, you know, make an entirely clean energy-based power system, transportation, heating and, and communities that are protected from flooding or extreme heat. Yeah, there's weight that's going to be paid for by governments just putting its hand in its pocket through and using tax money. No way.

So even at that very basic level of finance, the private sector has a role to play.

The insurance companies, the pension funds who are able to take a long-term view, I hope and some of them are. Yeah, indeed take a long-term view and have sense look for sensible rates of return over a long term view. We have to have partnerships across the private sector to deliver on those objectives. Even if we were just talking about finance and it goes to. And it's more than just finance. There's the technical expertise, there's the innovation. Innovations about smart demand management, integration of systems, solar EV charging and so on.

The private sector is absolutely indispensable.

And in Sub Saharan Africa the kind of organizations we support and work with in the clean energy access sector in sub–Saharan Africa they're mostly private sector organizations.

They're innovators, who are coming up with ways to get solar onto roofs in some of the most far flung and impoverished parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. and not just supply electrons butagricultural processing, cold food, cold storage and zero carbon transportation, electric transportation.

These private sector actors who are going out into those places and thinking about how you make it work technically, financially.

Ultimately, it'll be private sector money leveraged by the international, the multilateral development banks, the African Development bank and local currency institutions which is going to supply the finance that is required. Yes, there needs to be north, south flows, but it's only going to

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Show Notes:

As a small business owner what does it mean to run a sustainability brand? Is it true that sustainability brands rooted in demonstrable solutions are generally more successful than those that use vague or superficial eco-friendly messaging? And how useful are authenticity and a genuine commitment to addressing environmental and social problems to building consumer trust? What is their contribution to financial sustainability, long-term loyalty and profitability?

Ruchi Chawla, Founder of Cottsbury a GOTS (Global Organic Textile Standard) certified sustainable fashion brand was my guest on the 141st episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast. In the episode we attempted to answer some of the questions above while Ruchi shared her inspiring journey towards establishing a sustainable fashion brand rooted in organic cotton. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

• Her journey from working in the fashion industry to taking a more conscious entrepreneurial path driven by the desire to bring meaningful change in the industry

• The fashion industry’s overreliance on harmful chemicals and environmental negligence that is responsible for significant pollution and resource depletion

• How Cottsbury distinguishes itself from conventional fashion brands through ethical sourcing, transparency, getting certified, including 100% traceable production and a zero-waste policy.

• How consumer behaviour is driven by levels of market maturity (UK/India) for sustainable products/brands. This in turn is driven by consumer awareness, economic factors and cultural contexts (amongst others)

o Consumer resistance and price sensitivity

• Ruchi emphasizes the importance of mentorship and support networks, attributing her perseverance and success to the guidance she has received throughout her entrepreneurial journey

The episode culminates in a thoughtful reflection on the future of sustainable fashion and the collective responsibility of consumers and entrepreneurs to advocate for more ethical practices. Ruchi emphasizes the need for ongoing education and engagement to shift perceptions about sustainable products, dispelling the notion that such choices are inherently elitist or inaccessible.

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Ruchi. Wonderful to have you as a guest on the Elephant in The Room podcast today.

Ruchi: Good Afternoon, Sudha. My pleasure to be here and talk to you.

Sudha: Brilliant. So just give us a quick introduction before we launch into the questions.

Ruchi: I'm Ruchi. I'm from India. I have studied and worked in India and also in Europe, in Amsterdam and Belgium.

I've been in the fashion industry since my post-graduation and in various functions in the fashion industry with various brands and companies. I've travelled all around the world for work and for leisure and that brings me to my current passion project, which is Cottsbury which I'm running now, for last two years plus

Sudha: Brilliant. So what inspired you to get on this journey into organic and sustainable fashion and launch your brand Cottsbury. Can you share the story behind discovering Pure Certified Cotton and why it became the foundation for Cottsbury?

Ruchi: So I was in the fashion industry. Wanted to do something of my own, questioning everything with the bigger companies, bigger brands, and my bosses always why, how, why we are doing this. So all this led to me be very aware and observant of surroundings around me.

And as I travelled in my sourcing roles to different countries, I realized that what a mess the fashion industry is in, what are we creating? And this entrepreneur spirit just kindled with the thing that I have to do something different. Not just launch another fashion brand or another clothing brand, something different in which I'm actually doing good to the world also, and to myself.

So that's how I started Cottsbury.

Sudha: And what's the story behind discovering Pure Certified Cotton

Ruchi: It is a foundation and it's how it started.

So when I used to work around different fabrics, I would realize that we are all loaded and surrounded only by chemicals. Even if you say I'm a very aware person, I'm very conscious. I mean, the world is such, you are consuming chemicals from your food to everything you're touching and using. And when my child was born, I was like, I am not making her wear polyester you know, onesies and blankets. Not at all. It has to be pure, pure, pure, and that's how my search as a consumer began and I found organic cotton baby wear, very limited availability even in Europe and some in India.

That's how I started hunting for organic cotton. When I was struggling to find it, I felt horrible that how will the average consumer ever find it?

Some of them are not even looking for it. And those were looking, find it very limited availability. I started then looking for manufacturers, this was while I was working with the big corporates, and this question was always at the back of my mind that there are people who are doing the good job. And in that inquisitiveness I found few farms and factories who are actually making pure organic cotton without chemicals `and fertilizers and pesticides. They're growing the cotton, the factories are buying it and making products out of it. And that's when I said I have to do something about this and baby wear or adult wear, whatever, I have to start that.

Sudha: Okay. That was the genesis.

Your brand Cottsbury is based out of the UK. You sell in the UK market.

Did you encounter any challenges when you introduced your brand in the UK market, and how do you compare the UK customers to those in India? Why are you not selling in India as yet?

Ruchi: See the reason I launched in the UK market was, I have lived in Europe, UK, India. I was not very confident of launching it in the Indian market, firstly because like I said, the consumer here is not as aware or as ready to pay for this, or is not asking as many questions as have been asked and answered in the western world, which is the US market or the UK Europe market. Because that's where I worked and lived so I understand that. It's not that Indian consumer is not aware at all and there are no people in India who'd buy my product.

I have loads of queries as of now as well from India market. But India is huge, I'm a bootstrapped entrepreneur. So to launch in India, it requires much, much more capital and teams and resources. So I thought, let me start with European market, and I want to become a global brand.

I don't want this for any country specifically, because what I'm trying to tell through my brand is that, let's live a chemical free life. And it is not possible that one country is chemical free and the other country is not. We are breathing the same air. We are doing this for our planet. The effects of environment are on all countries all together. So the idea was to start in the UK and become a global brand. Not immediately launch here, I will start with Uk, Europe, US, and India, something like that.

Sudha: Based on the volume, the awareness the insight and the ability and the desire to be able to have an organic and sustainable product. So how does Cottsbury differ from larger less sustainable companies in your industry? And are there brands that you admire.

Ruchi: Yes, there are brands that I admire definitely who've done such amazing job in sustainability, recycling. And overall, they are leaders, I mean, very clearly the brand called Patagonia, I admire them, the founders, the people who work there.

So, I would say we are sustainable, and by the word of it, I mean, we are not just making claims here we are a hundred percent sustainable, traceable, zero waste, no plastics. All the definitions we tick for sustainability, it’s not that it was a thought after project that we added in our brand. Oh, let's become sustainable. I'm a successful brand, let me become sustainable now. We are not that. we are a sustainable brand to start with. Most of the brands, even today, what they do is they have a small line in their collection, which is organic cotton line, rest is not sustainable, not organic, not traceable, nothing.

So they have a small line. So it's a project for them. It's like an afterthought. So let's do something sustainable. For us, it was not that, we are sustainable by birth. And that's the DNA, we only go by that and that's what we've been saying to our customers online always, that we aren't making false claims.

We are traceable, I know where this t-shirt is made, which you just bought, how much cotton you have used and how it's not harmed the environment. So I go by that.

Sudha: Do you have a process in place to ensure that your supply chain remains sustainable and transparent. Especially considering that you work across geographies and I mean, your suppliers must be sitting in different places.

Ruchi: Oh, yes, definitely. So that's how we go for worldwide certifications. We are GOTS certified and we are Fair Trade certified. And these are big organisations who have certified the whole process from seed to final finish, to the product, reaching in customers hands.

So everything is traceable. We pay for the certification. We abide by all the rules they laid. On books, we can prove that whatever we are saying is a hundred percent correct and has been done and that's why we have the certification of no toxic chemicals, sustainable farming, ethical labour throughout the supply chain.

Sudha: And where are your suppliers based?

Ruchi: So they're all in India as of now. It's a completely ethical, traceable supply chain and our factories are based in North India, and West India.

We buy from these limited factories, we don't go around buying from a hundred factories, four products here, four here, because we are strict with our rules, with our certifications. It's few suppliers who can meet our requirements, so we go with them only.

Sudha: And what about your customer base? What drives them to buy products that may be more expensive? How do you educate them about your sustainability efforts and encourage them to make these choices?

Ruchi: The price line of Cottsbury we are not expensive, we have kept fair pricing. I was not in here to just make money.

Of course I'm running a business. I have to pay people, I have to pay for the product and all the services I buy. But we are not price expensive. We are not luxury, We call ourselves luxurious by the feeling the product gives you. But we are fairly priced products, and our customer buys us for the ethical credentials. That's been said in most of our reviews as well.

For the ethical credentials, for the quality, for the positive social proof we give that this is where I got this from, this is the service I'm giving you. This is the quality I'm giving you. And I'm not overpriced here, I mean, you can compare our products with other so-called sustainable brands. We are not asking the same dollar as they are.

We are more authentic. authenticity is our first key and people see that.

Sudha: Do you as Cottsbury go about educating your customer base about what you are doing because not everybody is aware and not everybody may be conscious of the choices that they make.

Ruchi: I totally agree. I have a lot of work to do in that area. But from day one, we are not preachy, We are educating in our own silent way.

Like for example, we are only available online when a customer receives our product, we've got many comments, many reviews about them, they were shocked to see there was just no plastic in the packaging. Any online order you receive, you are prepared for lots of plastics coming, even your tape is plastic, everything. And we give products in a waste cotton bag, which is in a paper cardboard. We have no plastic, so we've reused the cotton in the factory and here while shipping, we are not using any poly bags, plastics. We are using paper cardboard bags, which are recycled. Other things, for example, like the buttons we use on our duvet covers, they are not plastic buttons, they're coconut shell buttons. Our bedding is soft and silky, not by a wash given to them because it's pure organic cotton. We do give it a wash, but it's not a chemical wash we give to make it soft.

So people do acknowledge all that in their reviews. That the quality, the packaging, the softness, everything is talking about your brand ethos. It's really in your DNA and we've heard that back from our customers. We get lovely emails and reviews from people who are seeing this kind of a thing for the first time.

Others who've seen with other brands talk about up prices that you are not priced...... I bought a similar thing at like one and a half or double the price from this brand and your quality is even better. So we like to hear that and we think that we are on the right way. We have a, long way to grow big, but I think the start is good.

Sudha: Amazing. So there's a wide spread perception and many cases that is the reality also that sustainable products are more expensive or inaccessible or not meant for everyone.

Ruchi: It is the perception. Very true. But if you actually compare our individual items, yes, of course there are options available.

But then read the labels. If they say we are sustainable, the label will say, 5% organic cotton, and will be loaded with plastics, or it will not have any certification. So how do you trust? I mean, you know a supply chain is, how many people involved, how many organisations involved at the back, how can they all be all sustainable and true in their claim. Certification throughout the chain just gives us that proof that yes, what we are saying is a fact. We are not just claiming it.

Sudha: So what have been some of the biggest challenges along your journey, and how important are mentors and support networks would you say for bootstrap small entrepreneurs?

Ruchi: Keeping our products mid to premium range has been a big challenge.

Because we do have to incur the same costs as everybody. And then it means that you know your pocket is empty many a times because you are living by your ethos by which you started. That I will not overcharge or everybody defines it differently what is overcharged for me. And that has been a very big challenge to keep up prices in control.

And online customer is very price sensitive and they look for offers and sales. So we do offer that, but that is a killer for us. So this has been a challenge. And another challenge of course has been in keeping the full supply chain always on guard that we are what we are. We every day are living by it. So my travels from the UK to India such frequent travels is killing. But I have to do that because I have to be at both the places. So it's just, keeping the sustainability and transparency promise, the pricing and value promise in our complete product range and satisfying our customer.

The whole story is of challenges and lots of challenges, yes. But as long as you're enjoying it, yeah, I'm there in it.

Sudha: And how important are mentors and support networks?

Ruchi: Most important. They've brought me back every time. There are times when I've like given up completely partially, that this cannot be done. Why am I into this? I've questioned myself honestly couple of times, but there are people my mentors who've really stood by me and reminded me why I started this from day one. So asking me to maintain my journal and read it on such occasions, why I started this and what is my end objective, and where am I today. I'm staying here because of them. Completely because of my mentors and because of my family completely supporting me. My brother in the UK and my family here in India.

I mean, without their support, this wouldn't have been possible at all. My daughter, my husband, my parents. My daughter is my biggest mentor. She's 16 now and she is really the mirror in front of me. She shows me the mirror very often.

Mama, why you are doing this? Do you realize that

Sudha: That's nice. What advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs who want to build an authentic and sustainable brand in today's competitive landscape?

Ruchi: Come and join me. I need more entrepreneur minded people around me, so come and join me, that'll be wonderful because it's still very rare. To find people with that mindset who are ready to plunge in with all their effort and their sacrifices. So I would say to them that it's still the beginning, this is where the future is, only think of sustainability as your principle, as your key feature.

Sudha: Yeah. And possibly keep a journal so that you can remember why you got on the journey.

Ruchi: Oh, yes. Oh yes. It's so important to remember why you started this, what were the words that made you start this?

Sudha: We've spoken about the challenges, et cetera. What are some of your proudest moments or achievements in this sustainability journey?

Ruchi: So it's both ends of my spectrum. When I receive positive customer reviews, that's like the best...

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Show Notes: On the 140th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast my guest was Sangeeta Waldron an industry veteran with over 3 decades of experience. Sangeeta's story is shaped by both personal and professional transitions, including navigating a recession and shifting her aspirations from advertising to government communications. Her bold decision to leave the security of a civil service role for a not-for-profit organisation working with the developing South marks a pivotal moment in her career, reflecting her commitment to meaningful work aligned with her heritage and values.

In the episode our conversation delves into how these early experiences shaped Sangeeta’s perspective on identity, inclusion and sustainability communications 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

• Her resilience in overcoming challenges as a British Indian woman in a predominantly white industry

• The current state of inclusivity within the public relations highlighting the persistent underrepresentation of diverse voices

• 'What Will Your Legacy Be?' Sangeeta’s latest book where she explores climate change and the role of businesses in fostering sustainable practices

• The importance of representation in storytelling and the necessity for brands to engage with broader demographics to effectively communicate in today's global society

• Our collective responsibility towards creating a more equitable and compassionate world, urging listeners to contemplate their own legacy and contributions to societal progress

The discussion links her individual journey to the broader context of responsible communications, emphasising how personal identity and lived experience can drive impactful change in sustainability narratives and foster greater inclusion in the workplace.

Head to the podcast to listen to the episode (link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good Morning Sangeeta. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Sangeeta: Thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited about our conversation this morning.

Sudha: So let's get started with a quick introduction

Sangeeta: So it's a quick one. I mean, I've been over 30 years in this industry. In a strange way, I was born here, but I completed my degree in India, my college and university. So when I left India, I came as a postgraduate thinking I'm just going to, like most postgraduates or graduates, think they're just gonna be snapped up for a job.

I wasn't.

And the country at that time, the UK was going through a recession. And so it was very hard to find work. And I really wanted to be a copywriter in advertising when I was at university. That was my thing. That's what I really wanted to do. So I was trying to desperately get into advertising when I came back to the UK, but the recession had really affected. Well, we know that media and communications is always the first industry to suffer from recessions and knockbacks. So no one really wanted me. And I didn't have any office skills either.

So I sat the civil service entrance exam. And I got through. So I spent the first five years of my career writing speeches for a previous prime minister and ministers, but there is just so much creativity you can do with a minister and prime minister speech. And I thought this is really not what I want to do.

And I decided to resign and at that time, everyone was like, Are you crazy? It's a job for life. You've got a great pension. All those things, that Indian families are always very concerned about. And I said, no, this is not what I want to do and I resigned and I went to go and work for a very small, not for profit organisation working with the developing South, which kind of fitted all my background knowledge, my growing up and my experiences of living in India.

And I was there and that was really, I would say, while I had those first five years, in government, I would say my career really started when I went to work for this small not for profit. So this is becoming a very long elevator pitch. So just from there, I went to go work for some fantastic organisations.

I was the first global director of comms and marketing for the Economist Group, working at that time for the CEO, which was a huge privilege. She was the only woman in the square mile at that time. I went to work for the first mayor of London, Ken Livingston. So lots of firsts. And then in 2009, just before I set up my own PR agency, Serendipity PR and Media, I was working at a breast cancer charity.

And when I started there, it was just, a team of myself and two others, the time I left, we were an award-winning team of 10 and I was director of comms. And then 2009, I set up my own agency

And during that course of that time, we've also had the advent of social media. And so I've got more strings to my bow. And as you've read my second book very kindly, I'm a published author. So, that's me in a nutshell.

Sudha: That's such an amazing journey. So varied and the depth of experience and like you said, civil services. Do you regret it? Do you ever think that, oh, it might've been nice to still be working there?

Sangeeta: No.

Sudha: Short answer.

Sangeeta: So it's a good question. It's an interesting question. And I was speaking to a friend of mine over Christmas and we were talking about life.

When you get to a certain age, you look back on life and you think about, do you have any regrets? And no, I've got no regrets. Everything I've done has taken me to where I need to be and it's taken me to where I am today. So no, I'm pleased I left.

Sudha: I don't think everybody is able to do this with the conviction that you are able to speak about it.

Coming back to being a British Indian, what has your journey been like in the industry? How easy or difficult was it to assimilate? You have had so many firsts to your credit. On the face of it, it looks like it was all very smooth sailing and, very easy for you to progress, share with us the actual story.

Sangeeta: The question has made me think a lot and I have to acknowledge the people that gave me the opportunities. So when I applied for the job with the small not for profit after leaving the civil service, they gave me my opportunity.

At that time, it wasn't always easy. I still think it's not easy. Sometimes you're the only woman in the room. Sometimes you're the only British Indian woman in the room. And that, I'm talking about 30 years ago. And it's still like that now. So not a lot has changed, but I have to give a lot of credit to people who saw me, who saw my potential, who gave me the breaks, the opportunities.

And then I think a lot, like a lot of British Indians who are maybe first, second generation who've grown up in this country. My mother always used to tell me when I was little, when she used to get me ready for school here, she always used to say, you've always got to be better. You know, you've got to work harder because you're Indian, you've just got to work harder. And she always used to tell me, you're a girl, so you've got to work three times as hard and always have financial independence. So those were things that were always drilled into me and my mother was a working woman.

And so I would say it was also breaking a lot of stereotypes, how people see you, perceive you. I didn't fit into any boxes. So when I was working in some places, people naturally thought I was living at home with my parents. And I was living this... I don't know, whatever their stereotype was of a young British Indian woman.

And I remember going into work one day and I was a little bit late, and I said, oh, I had to ring my landlord because something wasn't working. And my boss said to me, landlord? He said, where are your parents? And I said, my parents? I said, my mom’s in India. He had to get his head round this whole story he had in his head on how he thought my life was.

It's breaking lots of stereotypes, and I think we're still breaking those stereotypes. And I think one thing I just want to say, I think people are discovering, and I think this is the joy and the positives of social media. People are also discovering that Indian women can be very funny, that we have a sense of humour.

Like the next person that's, all these stereotypes are all portrayed by the media or by film.

Sudha: Yeah, absolutely agree with you. But I also agree with what your mother drilled into you as a young child that you have to work harder. You have to be financially independent. I think that's some great advice. Actually, all women should be, everyone should be financially independent as far as possible. And of course when people are not able to put you into a box, it's very difficult for them to really decide on how they should behave with you.

It's easier to just slot people into different identities and stereotypes. From there we're moving on to this very important thing about identity, as somebody who's lived across two countries how important is your identity to you and how would you define it?

Sangeeta: That's another good question. I mean, my father was from India.

Sudha: Yeah.

Sangeeta: And when we went to India, it was our first time in India. And as a family, we only spoke English. So we didn't speak any of the Indian languages, no Hindi. My father was from the Punjab, no Punjabi. So when we went to India, I was about just 14 and a half.And so all our communication was through my dad and he was getting fed up because we couldn't communicate. So he just said he's not doing it anymore, which was like sink or swim. And I was too old to learn Hindi or Punjabi. So I did French.

Sudha: Yeah.

Sangeeta: And all my Hindi is the Hindi I've learned from TV, from films, because in India you have, well, servants is not a nice word, but you have home help.

Sudha: Yeah.

Sangeeta: So the home help that we had growing up, I learned from them, but I can't read or write. When we went to India my father wanted, I have a younger brother, wanted us to learn about our Indian roots. And in India, I wasn't accepted. I wasn't Indian enough.

So, I hated my nine years in India. And India was a very different place at that time, I was bullied, I was ostracized for the way I spoke Hindi, for all those stereotypes that Indians had of what an Indian young woman should be. And so after nine years, I said to my mom, look, I've done everything that's been expected of me and I'm now leaving.

And she didn't try and stop me. She understood, and in fact, when we went to India for the first time, when we arrived for the whole month, I refused to unpack my suitcase and my mum thought, Oh my God, if she doesn't unpack it today, then I'll have to bring her back. I'll bring her back because she's just not settling.

And that day, my mother thought that was the day I decided to unpack my suitcase. then when I came to the UK. I had this other story that everyone thought I was Indian, and I was just trying to find myself, I was in my 20s trying to find out who I am.

Yeah, so you're breaking those stereotypes here. And it was only recently somebody said to me, somebody I admire in the British Indian community. He rang me and we were just chit chatting and he said to me, you know, you're really respected in the Indian community. And that was like a, I don't know, it was like a big moment for me because I thought, wow, all this time I've always felt like I've been on the outskirts of everything.

And now suddenly people think, no, she's not a bad role model and she has a voice for the community. So my heritage is important, but I think it's who I am that defines me more than anything and I think that goes for everyone.

Sudha: Yeah. It must have been terribly difficult for you at 14 and a half to shift to a new country, when all you knew was, this way of living It must have been a huge culture shock. And of course, there is so much of resistance at that age. So, I have empathy for you. And of course when we talk about racism or stereotyping, it's not just that it happens here.

It happens everywhere. So it's about being conscious about how to accept people for who they are.

Sangeeta: One hundred percent. You're absolutely right.

And in India, sometimes I used to just stand there and not even open my mouth, but people know you're different. Just by the way you stand, you know, in this country, as a child, you are empowered to have a voice. In India, it's a different culture, it's a different setting. So yes, I was targeted a lot, never accepted. And then also not reading and writing Hindi was also a disadvantage. And my parents didn't set any boundaries. My mother didn't know India. She's Indian but wasn't from India.

And my father didn't sort of explain, this is what you do and this is what you don't do.

And I always, I was 15 and my parents put me in this co ed school. And what I didn't realize in India at that time was when the teacher said make groups. I would go and make groups at the boys and groups there is only boys together, girls together. At 15 you're discovering the other sex and, I was falling in love.

And I got into so much trouble at school. But no one explained to me that the culture is so different. My parents didn't sit me down. All my father said to me, the only advice he gave to me was don't smile at every boy

That's all he said to me. Don't smile at every boy because they all think they're Romeo. And that was the advice. And I had to navigate all of that on my own.

Sudha: That's a really tough thing for a young person to do. I'm sorry about that. But I will also just like to say that I grew up in India and different parts of India are very, very different.

So Northern India is definitely one of the places where all of this is so stark and so everyday kind of, it's not unusual to, have gone through that experience, but in other parts, I'd say in maybe some parts of Eastern India, if you were in Bengal or you were in Western India or in Southern India, your experiences would have probably been different, but you don't know, I mean, for a 14 and a half year old kid, 15 year old kid to be put in a situation like that, it's wrong and it's difficult. I mean, this is all hindsight.

I guess your parents didn't realize and I think our generation of parents didn't think too much about these things.

Sangeeta: They didn't think at all. I don't think they thought at all. But India is very different today, and I love going to India today. I have a different relationship now with the country.

Sudha: Yeah.

Sangeeta: And I always say when I meet incredible women like yourself. I always say, if I had met you when I was growing up in my twenties, I would have stayed. I would have felt there were other people like me, but I never met those women. And also in India at that time, there were very few careers you could have. You either were a teacher or a teacher.

Sudha: Well, again, this is what I'm saying is, depends on where you were and where you grew up. And I think you also grew up in a hill station or a smaller town, which can have its own challenges, not to justify any of the stuff that you had to go through.

Moving on to our industry in the UK as a senior practitioner, do you think the industry is inclusive? I just gave up my role as the chair of the PRCA equity and inclusion advisory council in Feb last year, I'd been there for three years, and I thought that I could better serve the industry from the outside rather than inside. What are your thoughts?

Sangeeta: I mean, I've been over 30 years in this industry and when I started out, there were very few women in senior positions and no women, I would say, no women of colour in senior positions. We've just entered 2025 and last year, the Chartered Institute of Public Relations published their census and it showed, I think it's something like 84 percent or 87 percent of people in the industry are white, 5 percent are Asian, Asian.

I don't know what that means because we're all just put together, whether that's Indian, Chinese So 5 percent Asian, 3 percent black. I think it's something like 4 percent of people are mixed heritage. That is still not enough for an industry. I don't believe it's representative of everyone. And that is a problem for brands.

That's a problem for communications because we're living in a global society.

Brands need to be able to talk to everyone. And if you've only got one demographic setting the campaign, setting the messaging, defining what a campaign is. You're not inclusive enough. And we've seen those kinds of mistakes being made by big brands, including luxury brands.

Sudha: I think that it persists because I started at the PRCA in my role in 2021. And, I felt like moving the agenda it's like, trying to move a mountain especially when you look at the bigger agencies, I quit the industry in 2018. Because I struggled to really find my place, and after that I struggled to find anywhere to get to because people could not see where I would fit or whether I had the experience or the right experience. And I think that a big factor of that was to do with my age that I was in my mid-forties and also to do with the fact...

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Show Notes: Shifting political priorities and economic pressures over the past couple of years have seen several countries scale back climate commitments contributing to the growing gap between climate pledges and real-world emissions (still rising).

What does this mean for a ‘Just Transition’ and Net Zero? While there is no silver bullet, IUCN and UNEP emphasise Nature based Solutions (NbS) can be pivotal for climate mitigation and adaptation, when pursued alongside rapid decarbonisation globally.

To discuss NbS, and climate change I recently caught up with Swapan Mehra a global leader in climate action and ecosystem conservation. In this deeply insightful conversation Swapan spoke about how NbS is a holistic approach to addressing the climate crisis, through a spectrum of actions designed to protect and restore ecosystems while simultaneously delivering co-benefits for biodiversity, communities and individuals. We also spoke about…

👉🏾 How NbS are fundamental in agrarian contexts like India, where communities are inextricably linked to their natural environments.

👉🏾 The practical implementations of NbS in India's Nationally Determined Contributions (NDCs), that highlight the ambitious targets set for increasing forest carbon stocks by 2.5 to 3 billion tons by 2030

👉🏾 The challenges to adoption by the private sector

· Lack of standardised financial mechanisms, regulatory hurdles, and insufficient data and knowledge about NbS performance and returns

👉🏾 NbS frameworks including IUCN; Voluntary carbon markets integrity initiative

👉🏾 Investor expectation vs reality

👉🏾 Voluntary carbon markets, carbon credits and greenwashing

We also spoke about India’s carbon trading and green credit scheme, leadership commitment, the impact on SMEs, projects he is particularly proud and being a climate optimist……

“To me, just transition means ensuring that climate action doesn't come at a cost of life, livelihoods, equity, inclusion, but rather climate action promotes life, livelihood, equity, inclusion. In the context of the global south, especially India, where our communities have such a direct relationship with nature, with our landscapes, this means putting farmers first, indigenous communities first, it means ensuring investments which are locally contextualized to the needs of the communities and ensuring that a large part of the benefit flows to them. These are communities who have not played a major role in actually causing climate change, and now yet we are dependent on them to solve the problem for us.”

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Swapan. Wonderful to catch up again after a long time

Swapan: Good afternoon, Sudha. Very good to catch up.

Sudha: Let's get started with a quick introduction. Tell us a bit about yourself and IORA Ecological Solutions.

Swapan: Sure. So, firstly, thank you for having me on your podcast Sudha. I'm Swapan Mehra, I'm the founder and CEO of IORA Ecological Solutions. IORA Ecological Solutions is a leading developer of nature-based solutions, policies, implementation plans and action on ground in India. Over the last 15 years, we worked across 200 projects in the areas of forest conservation, forest restoration, and sustainable agriculture, while also helping India and many other countries develop leading policies to not only plan action on climate change, but also execute this action through financing and technology. Our mission is to make nature count, our mission is to ensure that there is holistic conservation of nature, of biodiversity and the communities who depend on nature.

Sudha: That's very, very interesting.

So, from our previous conversations and what I've read about IORA, I understand that, like you said, nature-based solutions for climate mitigation adaptation are pivotal to the work that you do. So what counts as nature-based solutions and why are nature-based solutions crucial to tackling climate change?

Swapan: Well, that's a great question. So nature-based solutions is a broad category of actions which in summary are actions that can protect, sustainably manage, and restore modified ecosystems while providing the core benefits of biodiversity, climate mitigation, climate adaptation, human wellbeing. Some examples of nature-based solution include afforestation, reforestation forest conservation, mangrove restoration soil and sand, enhancement, et cetera.

Now, why are nature-based solutions gaining a lot of traction? I think there are multiple reasons. One is that it's mildly accepted that nature-based solutions have the capability to deliver close to 30% of all mitigation actions, which are needed to stay below the two degree levels, which are enshrined in all of the global NDCs by 2030, a third of the actions.

The second reason is that nature-based solutions, like I mentioned earlier, deliver a lot of core benefits, versus any other solution, I'm not saying that our nature-based solutions are more important or less important than technology-based solutions. But as compared to other solutions, these core benefits of nature-based solutions are immense, especially in an agrarian vulnerable country like India.

If you're able to restore lands, restore water bodies, aforest, it can help tremendously in reducing climate risk for communities, helping creating jobs, help in ensuring livelihoods are sustained. Lastly there are two kinds of climate actions that we broadly have been all working on in the last few years.

One is actions that lead to avoidance of emissions. Second, which lead to, removal of emissions, which are already out there. While renewable energy and such categories, which have gained a lot of investment in the last few years, which is critical to the global pathway of decarbonisation, we all agree that there is already a lot of emissions out there, which are already starting to warm the globe, the process has already started. This is now a well-established fact, which means that we also need to balance this out with a lot of removals.

In the removal space, nature-based solutions have a distinct advantage also of being cost effective. Industrial removals, carbon capture are still very expensive, given that nature-based solutions have the ability to remove at a fair price locked carbon for periods of 30, 40, 50 years, which is what the world needs to move towards, net zero technologies and their core benefits. This is the reason why nature solutions are gaining a lot of traction and attention now.

Sudha: Yeah, my, first interaction was at the Planet Cognisphere event and so it's interesting to see, that it prioritizes not just, removals, but it prioritizes communities, and it looks at community impact and the cost of doing this entire process, because who's going to finance, where's the money going to come from?

So I think we definitely need low-cost innovations, and this sounds like a great way, to approach and, address the challenges. So, the NBS have been, incorporated into the NDCs as a part of the country's strategies, and you have helped develop India's National REDD+ strategy.

Tell us a bit more about it.

Swapan: So, yeah, Sudha most countries now have a major component of nature-based solution in their NDCs, this includes major budgets for afforestation, for reducing deforestation, and even in some cases for reducing emissions from agriculture.

So those components are there in various NDCs. India where we've had the pleasure and the privilege to be helping the Ministry of Environment Forest, making a roadmap for the NBS part of its NDC, has a major target to increase carbon stocks in India's forest and tree cover by two and a half to 3 billion tons by 2030, which is a major target.

Now, NDC targets are also slightly related to this instrument called REDD plus. REDD plus is an instrument which is being developed by the UN, in an effort to reduce emissions from deforestation, forest degradation and also to enhance the quality of the forest, the plus stands for Sustainable Forest Management and Enhancement.

REDD Plus has been under development for many years, the World Tree Carbon markets have adopted REDD plus in various forms, and there have been many projects, many initiatives. We had a chance to develop India's National REDD Plus policy and guidance document back in the day. Now there are also some challenges when it comes to REDD plus.

REDD plus is a very critical instrument. I especially feel that it needs to be promoted more and more because there is a distinct advantage of conserving existing good forest over creating new forest. I'm not saying creating new forest is not a good strategy, it is, but the true system service is the biodiversity, and very importantly, the culture and heritage enshrined in existing forests.

In order to regain that, the process for a new forest can span century.

I'm not remembering the number exactly, but from what I recall, I think less than 10%, 15% of the worlds intact forest is left now. Most of it is gone. These forests also play a very major role in regulating very major climatic and and weather cycles around the world. Water cycles, et cetera. And which is why REDD Plus as an instrument continues to be in dialogue, in discussion, and various people try to figure out how we can, promote this further.

In the context of India one of the reasons why India takes a very strong view of NBS and its NDC and has this major goal on increasing forest tree carbon stock - is also a recognition of the fact that firstly India's land, has high productivity can grow forest, traditionally has had a lot of forest, still maintains a large amount of forest, close to 25%. It's critical for India's biodiversity, it’s critical for India's water, but very importantly, India has close to anywhere between three to four hundred million people who are still directly dependent on a forest for their livelihoods. For us, maintaining this forest, enhancing this forest is critical for our social development, for our social growth and inclusion of our communities as well.

Sudha: Absolutely. I think I was staggered when I realised the scale of the population that is dependent on forest and forest-based livelihoods.

So it's good that there is a strategy that exists at the national level. Swapan what has been your experience of adoption by the private sector and what are some of the challenges of adoption of NBS by the sector?

Swapan: We interestingly with the World Economic Forum and CII did a survey of the Indian private sector a few months ago on their appetite and challenges in adopting NBS as a strategy central to their sustainability, climate change, et cetera. So I'll summarize some of the results from that survey, but also some of my observations over the years.

One thing that I can clearly mention is that there is growing interest in the private sector to look at NBS, either as a strategy to help them offset their climate and biodiversity footprint, or to offset some value chain risk. But a wide majority of corporates, especially in India, still view NBS as something that they need to address or they can address as part of their corporate social responsibility and not core strategy. Which is a challenge and I think that this is also where our community, the community of nature profession, needs to do a lot more to get these companies to mainstream nature on their balance sheet. To value the liability of negative nature impacts, but also value positively the gains from positive nature stewardship, which in our experience, far outweigh investments because the gains from nature are so multifold.

I also feel that even to head in that direction, while there is interest from companies, there are also certain systemic barriers, some institutional barriers that we need to take care of, amongst them, one is just the availability of tools data metrices.

There is a wide range of different standards available, but there is no standardisation. That's something that we need to work on. India actually is taking a leadership role in that space, with the government firmly taking control of sustainability, reporting standards, et cetera, but we need to do more.

There needs to be data and metrices available today if there is a company which wants to put biodiversity impact on its balance sheet, where do they get the data for? We don't have site specific information easily available. Then there is also a challenge of, I would say talent in this sector, more and more people need to be trained on how to account for all of this. In terms of investing in nature, in the survey that I mentioned earlier, there were some very interesting responses that finally, when you deal with investments in nature, you're dealing with land, with communities, with governments, and there needs to be more regulatory clarity changes in policies that allow the private sector to invest in nature, which at the moment is not very straightforward. Then of course, even if those things are clear, the one thing that the private sector needs to reorient their investment systems around is just the way you invest in nature, the system of investment in nature, because these investments are very long term. If you want to invest in a forest, you need to wait for 15 years for it to grow.

There is some uncertainty. Uncertainty about and risks of nature, which at the moment our corporate systems are not tuned to value, you know?

There is mortality, there is pest, there is a climate event. So I think that's where we are right now. There is to summarize increasing interest, but still on the margins, looked at as some companies have taken a leadership role and are investing heavily, but many look at this as sort of an additional corporate social responsibility, investment versus core strategy.

And that's what we need to now push nature towards.

Sudha: I think, you've made some really good points there, especially about understanding and getting it to be as a part of the strategic business decision rather than a CSR initiative and an add-on that you do to just talk about philanthropy or your piecemeal efforts.

And it has to be probably at the design stage and the C-suite have to be involved in discussions around how they adopt it and how they showcase the liability on their balance sheet or show stewardship of what they're doing. And how it, aligns with their business purpose because at the end of the day, you're not asking them to do something that doesn't align with how they're doing their business. It has to be aligned and integrated with how they're doing their business for this to be sustainable, and to be successful in the long-term.

Right?

Swapan: Absolutely. Absolute.

Sudha: So is there a framework or best practice? You mentioned, you know, India's taken a lead on setting standards and sustainability reporting. But is there a framework or best practice for organisations that want to adopt NBS as a part of this strategy, to offset GHG emissions?

And how do you ensure then that the communities benefit from projects and programs? Like you said, when companies look at community programs, it is through the CSR lens and it is not strategic at all.

Swapan: So firstly, at a meta level, there are some, global frameworks for NBS, amongst them the one that is most widely referred to is the IUCN framework, which actually lays out quite well what are the components of NBS, how to approach NBS and how to develop NBS solutions. Then in the carbon market, there are good practices which are laid out by the carbon standards, but also bodies like the, Voluntary Carbon Market Integrity initiative in which we are involved, and the ICVCM, et cetera, which are trying to focus on good practices to ensure that there are high standards of carbon removals from nature projects in general. A good NBS strategy must integrate firstly, robust baselining assessment of local contextual needs of a specific side that you want to invest or work in. This is very critical.

This requires comprehensive thinking and planning, small things such as which species you're planting, where in combination with which is something that has to be thought through, has to be suitable and beneficial to the community there.

The projects have to ensure that there is fair benefit sharing with communities, with long-term interest, and their priorities are taken into account when taking decisions on designs of these programs. For us at Iora benefit training is not merely a checkbox that you just do an activity, get consent and move on, it's actually the foundational centrepiece of these projects. As an example, in our project in Meghalaya, where we just done the first carbon payments to communities and mind you the highest prices in India, 40 Euros. We've spent two years in engaging the communities, getting the priorities and planning the agroforestry model, and we ensure that, a very large portion, a wide majority of the carbon benefits goes to farmers. In fact, it's IORA's policy that piece is centred to design of the project.

Sudha: As a climate finance expert, what has been your experience of what attracts investors to these projects? Because investors are critical, right?

Swapan: So investors are looking for scalable, verifiable high-quality nature-based projects, which can have both sound, environmental and financial returns. That's what investors are looking for and in defence of the investors, the project pipeline also is thin. Like projects which combine all the elements of proper planning, proper baselining, the right science parameters, the right financial parameters are also difficult to come by, but that's what investors are looking for. One of the mismatches I think that's happening a lot is the investors expectation of the time horizon of return versus where actual projects can return. The really good quality nature projects require a much longer time...

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Show Notes:

Black and Ethnic Minority representation in leadership positions in the UK PR Industry leaves much to be desired and is well below FTSE 100 @11% and FTSE 250 @9% (Parker Review 2025). However, I am an optimist and do believe that direction of travel has been set by advocates and agencies… Collective progress may be slow, but equity & inclusion is mainstream and there are more role models than ever before…

Alicia Solanki, Senior VP EMEA @Team Lewis is one such role model challenging cultural expectations and stereotypes to make space for herself in the UK industry. In this fast-paced conversation on The Elephant in the Room podcast we spoke about the dynamics of leadership and representation in the industry from the perspective of a woman of colour.

Alicia also spoke about the importance of mentorship in fostering resilience and empowerment amongst underrepresented communities.

• Authenticity and cultural sensitivity

• Work life balance decoded

• Codeswitching – life saving hack or demotivating burden?

• Evolving definitions of leadership and empathy in leadership

• DEI alive or dead? Are clients continuing to prioritise DEI initiatives or are they backtracking on their previous commitments?

Each and every time I hear somebody speak about their lived experiences, I am blown away by how unique our experiences are to each one of us. How important it is for us to understand that Black and Ethnic Minorities or the global majority are not homogenous. That understanding context and intersectionality are key to informed equitable interventions for inclusive workplaces and thriving communities.

Her advice to young Black and Ethnic minority professionals entering the industry - ‘make your own magic’.

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good morning, Alicia. Wonderful to have you on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

I'm delighted because I've been following you on LinkedIn for some time and it's a great pleasure to have you here today.

Alicia: Thank you, Sudha. It's a pleasure to be here today.

And yes, my friends and family always laugh about how obsessed I am with LinkedIn, so I'm glad you found me on there too.

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's start with a quick introduction.

Alicia: So I'm Alicia Solanki. I'm SVP EMEA at Team Lewis. Team Lewis is a global marketing agency here in London, but we're also global.We're around the world in 25 offices. I've done my whole career agency side. Before that I was in the Omnicom family. So, yeah, I guess I love the buzz of agency.

I love the discipline of PR and how it's really expanded now. I have two children, Ella, who's 11, just started high school. So lots of change came going on in our house at the moment.

And then I have a little boy called Ethan, who's eight. So, yeah, married, busy life, juggling loads of plates. But I kind of like it that way. So that's a bit about me.

Sudha: Yeah. Oh, my God, it sounds really busy and with life changing stuff.

I mean, moving from primary to secondary is like a huge change and of course, agency life. Tell me about it. I love the buzz. I was agency side, moving on. As an ethnic minority woman with an amazing career in PR, I need to ask you this. Did you choose to get into the PR industry? And how did your family respond? Because, I mean, a lot of Asians really don't get it.

Alicia: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And you're going to laugh when I tell you that I bought the ‘Dummy's Guide to PR’ before I started my career because I knew nothing about what this industry was about. But what I did know is that it ticked loads of boxes. So I love politics, I love the media, I love writing and reading and being with people.

And there were very few careers, I guess, that ticked every single one of those boxes. And then I came across PR and started looking into it and realized that it could do that. So that was where it ended up. My family had no clue what this was. My mom still thinks I'm a pa, I think. So I just kind of let anyone believe that which is fine.

And I really remember one time when I think it was a cousin of mine, who I won't name, said to me, what are you supposed to do with a career with a degree, sorry, in English. And I remember thinking, oh God, I've really gone against the grain here. When you know, lots of my cousins and grew up in a really big Indian family. Right. Lots of people around the house and most of them did, you know, either economics or math. So I was definitely an outlier.

And so yeah, it wasn't easy and I definitely sort of went left when everybody went right. From a studies point of view.

Sudha: Good for making your own choices. I can understand. I mean I didn't tell my kids, they didn't know what I did for the longest time and I was okay with that.

So during your career, considering that, you come from a background which is not in PR and where there's little awareness of the industry, did you have access to mentors and allies and role models? How important is it for you to see people like ourselves as role models?

Alicia: Yeah. I'll take the first part of your question first.I started this career in 2005 and there definitely weren't that many role models, particularly Asian female, in really seeing positions.

I think fast forward 20 years where we are now, there are definitely lots of brilliant examples and each one of us hopefully trying to lift each other up and become more visible and use our platforms and our voices. But there wasn't back then.

But what there were, I would say is that loads of allies in other places that either saw a talent that you had, that maybe you didn't realize that you had advocated for you and gave you opportunities. And I started my career at Ketchum and there were some amazing leaders, colleagues there that, you know, played an instrumental part in my career.

And they know who they are. So I won't name them all because I don't want to miss anyone. But yeah, the ability to see something, I guess that you didn't see in yourself. So allies are important everywhere in your life. Sometimes they're obvious allies, sometimes they look like you have the same background as you, but that's not always the case.

And I think being open minded and looking around and networking like crazy and finding those people that can lift you up and can occasionally like throw you the microphone or give you the spotlight. I think for me those are the people that have been real jewels in the story. As I look back over 20 years. So yeah, they weren't there back then. I'm so pleased to say that there are definitely way more now.

Sudha: Agree. I totally agree with you. And you know, we just spoke about agency life and the buzz of agency life. So is there a thing such as work life balance and what are the strategies for staying grounded and avoiding burnout considering you have a life beyond work?

Alicia: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's one of the hardest things I think about being in this career. It is always on. There is a nature, a degree to which you have to be present with your team, with your clients and that's challenging.

Yeah, I mean I have a really long commute to get to work. It can take up to two hours each way, children to sort out in the morning, to feed in the afternoons.

But the way that I like to look at it I guess is that there isn't such a thing as work life balance because you just have one life and you just have to work out how do you turn the volume up and down every single day? So sometimes the volume at work is a bit louder, other days it'll be louder at home.

I like to keep it broadly in equilibrium because I find that that makes me happiest, it makes my family happiest, my colleagues happiest. It's not always easy, but I think you have to be quite disciplined about the way you look at work life balance.

You know, you can't always have your cake and eat it. There is sacrifice everywhere you look and often personal sacrifice is - definitely things that I'm not able to do in the week.

Do a yoga class or there just isn't the time. But I'd hope that in time when the children are older and things settle that you'll get to do some of those things.

But yeah, I think it's just being open minded about that, respecting your boundaries, having that self-respect as well and not being afraid to say no every now and then that I'm not going to stay late or you know, go for that extra drink or. Because actually getting home early today is really important to me. So yeah, that's how I try and look at it.

Sudha: Yeah, I think identifying what is important for you both personally and professionally. Like you said, no two days are same and you need to prioritize and probably plan things down to the last minute.

Alicia: Definitely. And people love.. I have a holiday spreadsheet for the summer holidays and to the point where I just send it to my friends and say just self-serve yourself a date when you want to do a play day or you want to see me? Because unless I do that, I feel totally like eight weeks. I feel totally out of control.

So things like that, although they're practical, very Virgo, I'm very organized. Like things like that really help me.

And other people will have other techniques and crutches that they use, but I think without them it can feel like a free fall and there's nothing feeling like you don't have a plan. So wherever possible I try and put some like scaffolding around me, my family, to protect us and also to enable us to do the jobs that we do.

Sudha: Absolutely. And I think we are, we perform better at work if we are personally also in a good place. So I think makes sense to look out for both.

Alicia: Yeah.

Sudha: So moving on. I think this is something that a lot of black and ethnic minority employees feel. The pressure to code switch or assimilate in the workplace. And if yes, how has that experience influenced your leadership style today?

And are there facets to your identity that you wished people were aware about because it would make navigating the workplace easier?

Alicia: Yeah, that's a brilliant question. And yeah, I code switch all the time. I think you have to because you wear lots of different hats.

You know, when I'm at work and I'm in a boardroom or running the daily stand up meetings with my team. You know, they're looking for you to, to stand up, to tell them what's happening, to reassure them, give them confidence, laugh together, do all of these things. you know, But equally, you know, say if I'm out of the office with a different group or even at home, my own family and my in laws side, you know, you code switch all the time. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I think it's being aware that you're doing it and also the energy expense that it sometimes can take to code switch. Because if you do it beautifully, nobody will ever know that you're doing it. Only you will know the extent to which you're having to either mask or to amplify a kind of characteristic. But yeah, it happens. And I wrote a blog recently about - I'm quite petite. So, you know, it's easy to be the shortest person in the room or around the table. Things I do every time I'm in a room, for example, I immediately pump my chair up around a meeting room table. I take up physical space with my laptop or my books. I talk naturally very loud, which I find gives me authority.

So there's things like that that I've learned to do very naturally now because I know that by doing that, I'm gonna perform at my best.

And, yeah, and some of that just happens autonomously, I find, as you grow through your career and get comfortable with your own kind of personality and your own delivery.

And then on your second question. In terms of facets of identity, I think, you know, being from, you know, the Indian subcontinent, I definitely grew up in a big Indian household with, with loads of, you know, family, uncles, aunties, cousins. And, you know, you were one of a big number. You did have to find your way in that.

I do think of our generation, you know, those born in the kind of 80s who were in between the parents generation where, you know, they were really serving in laws often and trying to find their identity. We had a little bit more of that, but we don't have as much, I would. I would say, as the kind of Gen Z, which is great. You know, there's definitely some freedoms that have been found. So, you know, I've read a lot with, you know, Jaspreet Kaur.

She wrote that book, Brown Girl Like Me, and she talks a lot about that intergenerational trauma that sometimes people, certainly women like me of my age, you know, early 40s are. I have grappled with. And I do think that can play out that sort of quiet Indian girl stereotype or she's gonna be subservient. She's not gonna cause fuss. She's gonna do what she's told. Right. All of these things do exist. And I think, you know, you have to kind of counter some of that every day. And people might turn their head and go, oh, she's not at all like. I thought so. Yeah. I think there's things like that that play into our sense of who we are.

Sudha: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting to hear because, you know, it's like.

I mean, it's about processing essentially your various experiences, and people have various experiences and sometimes, you know, they can be very negative.

This thing about get your whole self to work thing it never worked for me. I was never going to get my whole self to work ever. Right. So I. I don't believe in that. Yeah.

But I want to get my professional best self to work and be empathetic person. So it's about knowing where and what you want to be doing and who you want to be known as.

Alicia: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. And I think we can get really hung up on. On fighting things.

And you put all your attention on disproving or, you know, that's not like me. And. And then you kind of lose the plot line because then you're not doing or advocating for the positive things that you can do. It's sort of. You become quite defensive about all of the challenges in your way. So I can try and approach it with a more positive attitude to say, well, actually, I'd love to surprise this person in the room.

Or when you tell them that you're head of the UK market, they sort of go, oh, you know, And I still get that. I find it just tremendous when you introduce yourself. And I don't know what they expect me to say when I put my hand out to shake their hand, but when I say that I definitely have had more than my fair share of oh.

Which I love now, I use it like dynamite because I kind of go, great, I've either proven you wrong or a stereotype that you've had that just hasn't lined up for you. And I use that to kind of charge myself up. So again, it could be a negative thing that you go, why are people looking at me in this way?

I. I'm not doing something right. It's all about me doing it wrong. But flip it around and go, actually, none of this is on me. And kind of prove them wrong. So you've got to be careful.

Because I think actually for women in our position, that can be quite a heavy load and a burden to carry if you don't find a way to make it more of a dynamite and less of a kryptonite kind of analogy.

Sudha: Yeah, I love the dynamite kryptonite analogy. Love it.

But discomfort is a good place for people to be. They don't know. So that's great. So the definition of leadership has, you know, evolved dramatically in the last few years. What does it mean to you?

How have your experiences shaped it, if at all. And what is your leadership style?

Did you think when you were like, you know, 10 years ago, you were thinking, my God, I mean, it would be helpful not to have this kind of behaviour from a leader?

Alicia: Yeah, definitely. It's a question I get asked a lot, and it's an important question. I think it. It does change.

It changes depending on where you are, what the kind of macroeconomics are, what's needed of you as a leader.

And I think for me, you know, the yardstick of a good leader isn't like, and I've learned this through the hard way, isn't how much you are liked, but how much you are respected. And that's something I had to learn because I am a real people pleaser at heart.

I love being with my team in the trenches all the time doing work I probably shouldn't be doing because I just love being in the weeds. But as you grow up the ranks, I think you have to learn quickly that you have to show, yes, empathy, of course.

That kind of servant leadership model, I think is really important.

And these days, actually kind of leading by example, but also giving the teams a level of clarity, inspiration, the space to, like, do some introspection as well. And they kind of look to you for that. So. But yeah, I think you need to know how to code switch again as you.

As you are a leader and know that you have to sometimes wear masks that are not your natural...

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Show Notes:

The global climate movement/industry is not very inclusive; amongst other things it struggles with gender gap. This is especially true in a country like India where the climate industry, particularly the clean energy sector, suffers from a significant gender gap, with women severely underrepresented in technical and leadership roles. While women disproportionately bear the burden of climate change impacts, social and systemic barriers limit their participation in the very sectors that could offer solutions and economic empowerment.

In India there are several government initiatives focused on women’s participation, along with several grassroots and third sector initiatives that are working to build skills and capacity. One such initiative is #Nadhi -SheforClimate a women led initiative building climate resilience through human capital development. #Nadhi is the brain child of Shalini Bharat a banker turned climate entrepreneur and social leader.

After a 17-year career in finance, including serving as the COO of Corporate Bank at Deutsche Bank India, Shalini founded the climate community platform with a vision to empower 100,000 women to become climate leaders by the year 2030.

So, what inspired this banker to leave the safety of 9-5 for climate entrepreneurship? In the course of our conversation, we spoke about....

• Her motivations for creating a platform dedicated to increasing female representation in climate leadership

• The overwhelming lack of women in decision-making roles in this critical space

• Initiatives that facilitate capacity building, fostering community, and provide career support for aspiring female climate leaders

• The importance of partnerships in advancing these objectives, highlighting how collaborations with various

organizations can amplify the impact of their mission

• Authenticity and purpose as

critical drivers for meaningful change within the climate space

#Nadhi works at the intersection of gender equity and climate adaptation by enabling women to enter and thrive in green careers building long-term individual and community economic resilience. They also support micro-entrepreneurs in climate-aligned sectors such as sustainable agriculture, clean energy, circular economy, and low-carbon services and help create community-driven knowledge network.

ShaliniBharat is also the founder of the circular economy startup The KindBusiness

#WomenInSustainability #ClimateLeadership #BreakingBarriers #BreakTheBias #GenderAndEnvironment

#RepresentationMatters

#AmplifyHerVoice

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Shalini. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Shalini: Thank you. My pleasure to be here and thanks for inviting me.

Sudha: Let's start with a quick introduction. Shalini, what inspired you to start a business focused on climate? What is Nadhi She for climate? And is that the right pronunciation?

Shalini: It's Nadhi. Like river.

I'll talk about the inspiration behind Nadhi

So, Nadhi, it's been about, I think 16, 17 months since I started Nadhi, but the backstory to this is I used to be a corporate banker. And in 2021 I left my job a CXO level person, quit the job without a plan, wanted to, get into the climate space. But I started with a little bit of social leadership fellowship. But when I kind of entered the climate space, I. It was very overwhelming.

First of all, you didn't know whether it was a scientific or a science based, you know, skill or experience you need, or is it something that I can use my existing domain expertise to get in there? It was just overwhelming. And climate is a huge space, right?

So I remember how overwhelming it was for me and I think over the past four, five years I tried to build a few things on the side, but one of the common questions or topics where whenever I used to speak to anybody used to be, hey, how do I get into the space? And that prompted me to start Nadhi.

I could also say it was also for selfish reasons that I also wanted to be part of something where I can meet like-minded people, you know, exchange ideas, exchange thoughts, and also feel that you're not really out of place in any of your conversations.

I could have kept it open, but I also realized that having been part of so many networks and conferences, there's always a little bit of not being heard in the room kind of.

Shalini: And you know, usual mansplaining. All those things also happen. So I thought, why not do this only for the den? So it all started with a Google form last year, February. I just rolled it out in Bombay. I didn't really expect the response I was getting.

And that is how Nadhi's journey has also been that it was completely impromptu without too much of planning or anything.

And then it kind of became into a venture or a social business, Nadhi's primary goal is how do we enable more and more women to come into the climate space. Now it will be interesting to also see that, or rather it was for me very interesting that I have been part of so many conversations with women.

But it was when I read a report from OECD, it said less than 30% women. There are only 30%, less than 30% women leaders in the climate space who are decision makers and senior level leaders.

So all these things I would say kind of prompted me to kind of put a structure which was pretty much can I enable more women to the climate space?

So the focus is on three aspects which is climate fluency through capacity building and of course a whole community of like-minded women and and providing them career support by partnering with organizations. That became like the core of Nadhi. So the mission is to enable 100,000 women to become climate leaders, decision makers, change makers by 2030.

Sudha: Amazing. I think this journey to transitioning and taking that leap of faith.

It has to be a leap of faith when you leave something without a plan because we are so conditioned culturally and socially to not take risks. And this is definitely; this definitely sounds like a risk.

So this plunge into entrepreneurship, Shalini, was there an aha moment or was it a gradual. Gradual sort of, you know, awakening to the possibilities as you sort of explore and then you find that oh, you know, this is what is me or this is what I'd like to be doing.

Shalini: So to be honest, if you had asked me five years back if I would even ever think of become an entrepreneur, I would have said no. That was something I didn't really plan or even remotely thought about.

But what happened I think was, I would say it was gradual, but I think they were also that aha moment for me to kind of jump into that space.

So gradual because you know, when I, like I earlier mentioned coming into the climate space, having had a very, very, how do I say, broad experience in the corporate sector, I thought getting into climate would be also easier and it wasn't easy. So which means I was also very clear that I'm not going to start from scratch.

All the years of experience I've, I built I don't want to just go to Cash, so. And that's where I thought, why not do something on my own? Honestly, after being through the journey, I realized how hard it is.

But I think the point in time was if I don't do it now, I would regret it later. Yeah, might as well try it now and see where it takes me.

So I think it was also a little bit of, I would say, risk taking on my part, thinking that, okay, let me try it at least.

Shalini: But that moment was for me to try, build something on my own came about because I found it extremely difficult to find anything, how do I say, suitable for my, you know, experience and what I was trying to look for. So I think that that kind of requirement need also pushed me to kind of do this.

Sudha: Amazing. That sounds like. Yeah, that sounds like. So such an interesting journey.

So what, what does a typical day look like in the day in the life of a founder? Can you walk us through it?

Shalini: One thing I can tell you for sure, No two days are the same. So there are days which are really full of energy. You are literally peaking. There are days where you want to kind of literally dig your head in the ground and, you know, think about, why am I doing this? So there are both kind of days.

So typically I would say, you know, it's all, it's all about spending a little bit of time planning for the next set of things you want to do. So in my case, what I also realized is I don't plan too far ahead because this one, this sector is changing for me.

It's also kind of keeping three months or six months as a planning goal and start planning for that and also having conversations with lot of companies, individuals to understand what is needed and where is the gap. I think it spends a lot of time in just talking to people, individuals and companies. And then there's the doing part.

Because you're a founder, you do everything everything is all your baby.

But I'm also kind of, how do I say, kind of a grateful to have a very trusted set of people who I can always go back and brainstorm and have them as my sounding board. So for me, a day is typically more on, you know, engaging with people, companies and understanding that and then planning.

To be honest, earlier in a corporate life, you're done with Monday to Friday. Here it is not. So I, I kind of even sometimes if I feel like I even pick up my laptop and do work on a Saturday or a Sunday. But off late, I've also been very conscious that having that mental space for yourself is very important. So I consciously take one day off in a week where I don't think about anything. But primarily, you know, it's all about planning.

Then there's a lot of doing and then there's a lot of engaging with people.

Sudha: Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I guess as a founder you also have to be very hands on. So all the things that you have to do. Yeah, it really keeps you busy.

But then how do you draw the line? So I think that's an interesting thing that you mentioned that at least one day in a week you're not going to be working. Yeah, that's brilliant.

What have been some of the biggest challenges that you've encountered so far, Shalini? And perhaps unexpected opportunities arising from those?

Have you had challenges in accessing funding for the, you know, funding for the initiatives that you are like planning or taking up?

Shalini: So to be honest here, unlike a product or even to a certain extent a service deck where you could say, hey, this is my product, you know, can we, can we get funding for it, A grant or, or you know, equity, whatever it is. Right. It's much easier.

When you're building a network and there the network has lot of programs, funding is a challenge.

So that's why this conversation with, you know, different partners of corporates and organizations is a probably one way to go forward where, you know, you engage them, show well that you're adding, could add value to those organizations. But yes, for an organization like ours, it's always looked at as little soft. But, but I think one thing people forget is while you may build product or service, you still need people who are conscious, who are intentional and have them by your side. And that network is also something where people are going to leverage at future points. Right.

So I don't think that, I don't think the investors or funders look at it such long term because for them it's a long term investment. So I would say that that continues to be a challenge. So I mean working on it, we'll see where we kind of land, see opportunities.

I'll tell you there are two interesting things which kind of happen.

Or rather I would say I wouldn't call it challenges turning into opportunities but it just because the, how do I say, the objective or the overall mission aligns with people and hence they want to kind of partner or give you opportunities.

So one of them being because we kind of sit at the gender inclusive climate intersection. There are organizations who want to say that, hey, I want to kind of also position my organization as, you know, very women focused. Or I want to kind of bring in more women into, say, climate entrepreneurship. So I want to kind of work with you. So these organizations who see this as a very aligned partner, those kind of opportunities definitely pop up.

But other apart from that, it's all about, you know, I'm kind of completely keeping funding off the table because it's a little of a longer kind of conversation. But typically this is how funders work.

But there are opportunities because people definitely look at us as potential partners because we sit at the conversation.

Sudha: So the next question sort of neatly segues into this is, you know, so you're nurturing the skills and the talent of, you know, women to enter the space and to sort of engage in the opportunities. How exactly are you doing that? How are you making this space more inclusive and representative? What are some of the initiatives? Probably.

Shalini: Like I mentioned at the beginning that we have these three verticals, right? Capacity building, community and the career support. So think of this as a launchpad.

So I might be a marketing person, finance person, technology person who has absolutely no clue about anything to do with climate. But it's also become very important when we have, when you're within the organizations or when you're looking to shift to have that climate fluency.

So what we do is we run all these programs to help people build their climate currency. I can probably share a couple of examples where you're probably able to see what that means.

So I remember one of the sessions which we did, which was a very high level ESG kind of a, I would say like a cohort based thing. And here we got people who were working with high net worth, you know, individuals or officers, family officers, and they said, okay.

They came to me and said, look for me, when people ask me about ESG and how does it apply to the family, office or high net worth individual? It's very important for me to have that knowledge of how can I advise them about what does it mean for you?

Now I'm not going to become an ESG specialist myself, but this kind of an introductory information or information or knowledge helps them to build that. Yeah, right. So kind of helps them to also understand the different players, how different sectors look at ESG.

So I'm saying that is how the fluency part of it comes.

Sudha: Yeah, yeah.

Shalini: We also have done a Mentorship program. So which means for entrepreneurs or MVP stages, the pilot mentorship program. How do I go about finding my product market fit is my, is my problem statement clear? And I mean do I know my customer better? How do I go about raising money, funds, runs, you know, all those things. So I would say it's a combination of all these things.

When people come to us, when people join the community, they get a overall or kind of an ecosystem support which kind of address all of it. So it's more like a. You come in. Absolutely.

As a newbie or a novice, you have like-minded peers who also just generously share knowledge or make the connections for you.

And, but also you have these kinds of programs or some, you know, the, or the mentorship or the other things which we run also helps them to, you know, get plugged into different things which is of their interest. Yeah, so that's how I would summarize it of nurturing.

Sudha: What, what do you think are the specific skills that are lacking and that you know, the future change makers, female women, change makers that you're looking at, what should they focus on developing? Because like you said at the start, you know, you have worked for maybe 20 years in the banking sector and you don't want to start from scratch.

You have experiences that you can sort of, you know, re train and sort of use a different way in different situations. You know, after 20 years you don't need to go back to the drawing board, you need to get fluency.

But you have already have so many skills exist that can support you. So from your experience, what are these, you know, specific skills that women need that are really important when they're transitioning?

Because a lot of them is about, a lot of it is about transitioning.

Shalini: So I would rather in instead of skill I would say probably I would talk about two things to focus on. I mean it can be a skill building exercise or it could be just polishing it or you know, sharpening your existing...

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Shownotes:

5 years post COVID I continue to ask the question – Do organisations need to have a business purpose? And what does having a business purpose mean in practice?

For the 136th episode of The 🐘 in the Room podcast I spoke with Shikhar Aggarwal, the Joint Managing Director of BLS International one of the world’s largest global service delivery company (visa, passport, consular, and citizen services).

Themes covered in the episode include 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

• What it means to be a purpose driven business providing citizen services and facilitating mobility

• Insights on global cultural integration for a listed Indian entity (the only one in the industry) with 60,000 employees and a footprint across 70 countries

• Lessons from the pandemic: agility, empathy and building trust

• Evolving challenges in the industry including geo-political crises, cybersecurity and inclusivity in service delivery

• Commitment to Sustainability & ESG reporting: The aspiration to set global benchmarks in citizen services

• Role models in the industry and beyond #TCS #L&T #Wipro #Azim Premji

To learn more head to the podcast, link in comments 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

BLSInternational #CitizenServices #GlobalMobility #ShikharAgarwal #Leadership #Sustainability #ESG #Innovation #PurposeDrivenBusiness

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Shikhar, thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in The Room podcast today.

Shikhar: Thank you so much for inviting me.

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do..

Shikhar: My name is Shikhar Aggarwal. I'm the joint Managing Director of BLS International. I started in Delhi; I'm a chartered accountant. I worked in a couple of companies before joining BLS International in 2014. So it's been an 11-year wonderful journey. And here we are, listed company with presence in 70 plus countries today.

Sudha: Awesome. Since I'm from a comms background, and Bhavya is also I'd like to hear your elevator pitch for BLS International. What is your mission and vision for the company? It's quite a huge business.

Shikhar: At BLS International, we are a trusted global tech enabled service provider to governments worldwide, committed to simplifying access to essential citizen services. We are operating in 70 plus countries and have processed more than 360 million applications till date. Our mission is to be the world's most trusted and efficient partner for government to citizen services. Also, our mission is to be the largest Indian company in global service delivery. There have been a lot of IT companies out of India, global IT companies, but I feel that a global service delivery company out of India, we are probably the primary one and we want to be the largest one.

Our vision is to touch the lives of a billion people across the globe by delivering citizen services that are seamless, secure and powered by innovation.We aspire to be the global benchmark for inclusive technology driven service delivery that empowers individuals, supports governments, and creates lasting societal value.

Sudha: Very interesting. So in the last couple of years, purpose has become a buzz word. So how important is it for you as you move on this journey to becoming, one of the largest or a global company which is much admired. How important is it for you that BLS International should have a business purpose?

Shikhar: See when someone applies for a visa, it is to unite with a family or needs an identity service to start a new chapter in life. It is much more than just paperwork. It is deeply personal. That's the space we operate in and that's why for us, purpose isn't a trend. It is a responsibility. At BLS, we don't see ourselves just as a service provider.

We see ourselves as an enabler of mobility, connection, and dignity. Our purpose is woven into every application processed, every identity verified, and every life made easier through our technology and presence. It guides us how we innovate, how we collaborate with governments and how we stay human centered in an increasingly digital world.

Beyond enabling access, we're also building livelihoods, empowering over 100,000 individuals, not just with jobs, but with tools, training and opportunities to become successful entrepreneurs in their own right. We are proud to foster a growing ecosystem of people who don't just work with us they are like business partners, they have learned how to run a business. They're making money with us. While others may talk about purpose as a brand statement, for us, it is the reason that we show up every day.

Sudha: Very interesting and it segues into my next question about culture. As a global business, with the footprint across, many countries, how do you go about creating one culture, getting employees or as you say, your business partners across the world to reflect your values.

Shikhar: When you are operating in a global environment, you know we are operating in 70 plus countries across borders, time zones, cultures, building one cohesive culture isn't about uniformity, it's about unity. For us, culture is the thread that connects thousands of employees around a shared purpose and core set of values, passion, customer orientation, entrepreneurship, result orientation, integrity and respect and being process driven.

We have built the cultures with intent through strong training programs, open communication and digital platforms that bridge distances. We keep everyone aligned, no matter where they are, and while we are united by values, we never lose sight of local strengths. Our teams are empowered to bring their unique perspectives while staying anchored in common framework of service excellence.

That's how we create a culture that's global in spirit but grounded in the realities of the people we serve and the people who serve with us.

Sudha: So that's about culture. And do you travel a lot to these countriesto actually see what the culture, what the integration is like?

Shikhar: Definitely me my senior team, we want to be on the ground. We don't want to operate a company from our head office or our office. If you have a touch and feel of the ground, the different cultures, values of the people, then you understand where your company is really at.

Not only cultures and values, you also understand delivery, business opportunities, capabilities. So it is a must.

Sudha: That's the best way to learn.

So Shikhar it's been like five years since the pandemic and, that was such a moment in time, moment in history where, everyone was impacted global travel and tourism of course was heavily, heavily impacted. We couldn't travel, I was stuck here in the UK, couldn't go to India. What were the learnings for people in your business? Particularly around, adaptability, agility, and also to be able to continue to serve customers and clients, who were stuck in crisis.

Shikhar: I think for us, since we are a company that gives visas, definitely pandemic had hit us the hardest, but it has been a learning curve. Pandemic for us was more than a crisis, it became a real time test for our resilience, and for us it brought three powerful lessons to the forefront.

First, agility became non-negotiable, practically overnight, we reimagined how we work. Digitizing operations enabling remote support and ensuring business continuity in the face of unprecedented disruption. We also learned how to operate business at a lower cost, and we are still taking some of those learnings till today.

Secondly, we learnt empathy isn't just a value, it's a strategy, while we kept services running, we made sure that our people were protected. We prioritized safety, flexibility, and wellbeing for our frontline staff as well as the customers we serve. And third, the trust made all the difference. Our long-lasting partnership with governments gave us the credibility and collaboration needed to co-create solutions that balanced public safety with service continuity.

These lessons didn't just get us through crisis. They have reshaped how we operate today: faster, more human and more connected than ever. If you see our growth after COVID, if you see our profitability growth, If you see our margins growth, if you follow our financials, everything is at a different trajectory.

And there were very few employees that we actually let go of, we deferred salaries, we reduced salaries, we brought it back after COVID. Most of our offices we were maintaining. I think five years down the line this is what has paid off. So that trust, which is where we stand as a company because of our commitments that we made sure we had adhered to during that time.

Sudha: Very good to know. So in today's world, what are some of the biggest challenges you face as an industry?

We spoke about COVID now we seem to be in a state of permanent crisis. Mobility is a huge issue, for people to travel. How you grant access or do not grant access to people, there are lots of questions around that? So what are some of the biggest challenges you face as an industry?

Shikhar: First of all, we are a global company operating in 70 countries. First geopolitical shifts, visa policies and cross border regulations can change quickly and we have to remain agile, ready to realign our operations while maintaining service continuity. And obviously, you have to keep in mind that it is an interest of governments to facilitate travel for tourists to come into their country as it is a big part of the GDP. While there might be short term setbacks in the world, but we have seen on an annual basis, we've always grown. Second is cybersecurity, data privacy. We handle very sensitive personal data. So safeguarding the information is not just technical requirement, it is also co responsibility and we continue to keep on investing in latest system protocols and training.

We follow very strict protocols. Third is striking the right balance between digitisation and inclusivity. While we embrace technology to ensure efficiency, we are equally focused on making sure that no one is left behind, especially individuals who may not have easy access to digital tools. Inclusivity remains a key design principle in everything we build. So if you see a lot of people from developing world, or older people, they need to be trained, they need to be assisted, in getting these services. These challenges keep us focused, adaptive and also committed to delivering secure and human centred services. How we manage the global challenges is how we do our business.

Sudha: Moving on to the next question. How would you define sustainability at BLS International? What does it mean in practice because it's very people focused business.

Shikhar: So at BLS international sustainability means delivering citizen services with accountability, resilience and deep respect for people, communities and the environment. It is about creating long-term value while upholding the highest standards of governance, reducing our environment footprint, protecting data privacy, and driving inclusive growth.

The commitment is also reflected on how we operate from maintaining global ISO certificates in anti-bribery, data security, occupational safety, to empowering the underserved communities, through focused CSR in education, livelihoods and women empowerment. We are also digitizing processes and optimizing energy use to build a more responsible and an efficient global service network.

Sudha: And as a listed company what are your thoughts on ESG and reporting and BRSR? With the reporting requirements that have been evolving in India, how are you aligning your business purpose and sustainability priorities with ESG reporting? If you're doing it at all? Or if you have the ambitions to do it.

Shikhar: Definitely, we work in a global environment with so many foreign governments across the world. So ESG reporting for us is no longer a box ticking exercise. It is a strategic lens. And in India, obviously BRS reflects the shift.

We see it not as an obligation, but as an opportunity to benchmark our impact surface gaps and drive real progress. At BLS International the BRSR aligns well with global ESG standards we already follow. It helps us connect the local expectations with international best practices, whether it's strong governance with board level ESG oversight, safeguarding citizens data through ISO 27001 or driving inclusive growth through gender diversity and ethical training.

Our CSR efforts focus on digital inclusion, education and skilling, directly feeding into the BRSR social lens. And with ESG risks integrated into our enterprise risk framework, we are not just reporting, we are anticipating, adapting and acting. Simply put the BRSR framework helps us stay transparent, accountable, and future ready while keeping sustainability at the heart of how we serve citizens around the world.

Sudha: Yeah, so people definitely are right at the forefront of what you're doing. When we consider ESG reporting Shikhar or sustainability best practice, are you looking at peers in the industry or across businesses? Which are some of the companies that you admire?

Shikhar: See, definitely at BLS International our approach to ESG blends both industry benchmarking and cross sector learning.

We track peers in the visa and government tools, citizen service space, especially around data privacy, inclusive access, and public trust. But we also look beyond our sector because best practices don't come with borders. We draw inspiration from companies like Infosys and TCS for their ESG leadership and digital inclusion growth. The Tata Group for the values driven stakeholder engagement and L&T for the structured ESG roadmap. Globally, we admire how Master Card and Accenture embed inclusive tech and social impact into their business models. For us, ESG isn't just about compliance, it's about evolving continuously learning from the best and creating long-term value that's both globally responsible and locally relevant.

Sudha: Any leaders that you admire specifically Shikhar, they could be within your circle of people you saw while growing up or admired or you admire now?

Shikhar: I would say Wipros’ chairman Azim Premji, I deeply admire the kind of institution he has built.

I meet a lot of world leaders at Davos, I go every year. So there are multiple world leaders, from India, from abroad that I admire. we aspire our company to benchmark with them or surpass them also. To me leadership isn't just about skill. If you talk about what does being a leader mean to me, it's about setting the standard, it means leading with trust, with innovation, and the commitment to create meaningful social value. For BLS International being industry leader means we are constantly evolving to stay ahead of the needs of citizens, governments, and communities we serve.

It's about being agile, responsible, and purpose driven in everything we do. So if you talk about what's next for BLS, we are deepening our digital transformation, expanding our partnership into new and emerging geographies, and embedding ESG more deeply into every layer of our operations. The future for us is about shaping how global mobility is delivered and more seamlessly, more securely and more inclusively.

And I feel that this is just the start.

Sudha: Oh, that's nice. It's great to have ambition and what makes you wake up every morning? What drives you and motivates you?

Shikhar: The main fact that drives us and motivates me and the company is like for India based company, a Delhi headquartered company facilitating global mobility and travel. We are in 70 plus countries, working with more than 40 client governments, and we are generating employment for Indians. We are upskilling Indians, sending them abroad, teaching them in high value jobs. We are delivering services to people who did not have access to these services before. They had to travel miles to city centres to avail basic services, you know so I feel the sense of purpose, the sense of scale, the sense of commitment, that is what, brings us to office every day.

Sudha: That's brilliant. That's a wonderful way to end this conversation, Shikhar. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your ambitions and where you are going to in the future.

Shikhar: Thank you so much.

Important Links:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shikhar-aggarwal/?originalSubdomain=in

Website: https://www.blsinternational.com/

https://youtu.be/RleX-g9Ypsk?si=RcJ08Eb2IAeXMd8u

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/bls-international-services-plans-rs-2000-cr-investment-jmd-shikhar-aggarwal/articleshow/101359804.cms

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Show notes:

Are there people who inspire you, make you want to be better and do better?

I have been fortunate to meet with amazing and inspirational people from all walks of life through my podcast The Elephant in the Room. Individuals who refuse to be defined by their circumstances or the challenges they encounter in life.

Akashdeep Bansal, CEO of SaralX, and my guest for the 134th episode of the podcast is one such person. Diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa at a young age, Akash's path took an unexpected turn when a conversation with his master's supervisor prompted him to consider the challenges faced by visually impaired individuals in pursuing STEM education. This pivotal moment not only reshaped his academic trajectory but also inspired the creation of SaralX, a startup focused on enhancing digital accessibility for people with disabilities.

In this episode we spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 How this led to the setting up of a collaborative network aimed at breaking barriers and fostering inclusion

👉🏾 Discovering purpose and becoming an entrepreneur advocating for inclusivity in the digital realm

👉🏾 Misconceptions that digital accessibility is solely for people with visual impairments, emphasizing that it encompasses a diverse array of disabilities, including motor impairments, cognitive challenges, auditory limitations……

👉🏾 The need to shift from a complaint-driven approach to accessibility towards one that inherently integrates inclusive practices into the foundational design of products and services.

👉🏾 Societal awareness and acceptance in facilitating a truly inclusive environment for all individuals, regardless of their abilities.

We also spoke about stigma, role models and what motivates him. Akash believes that it is not just one person who inspired his journey, it is the collective influence of those he has engaged with on his journey. His commitment to creating awareness and fostering inclusivity with SaralX is rooted in the notion that true empowerment stems from dismantling societal barriers rather than imposing limitations on those who are excluded.

Thank you @Prateek Madhav, Assistech Foundation for the introduction 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾

To learn more about Akash’s inspirational journey head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good morning, Akash. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in The Room Podcast today.

Akash: Good morning, Sudha. It's my pleasure to be here.

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do. I heard a little bit from Prateek of AssisTech Foundation. Let's hear from you.

Akash: What I can say about myself is, right now I'm doing this startup called SaralX, where we are basically helping in making the digital world inclusive for person with disabilities. Prior to this, I've done my master and PhD from IIT Delhi And I'm born and brought up in a small town which is called Gango, which comes under the district xxxx.

So that a small brief about me.

Sudha: Oh, wow. From UP straight to Bangalore. That's good.

Akash: Yeah,

Sudha: It requires a fair amount of bravery to become an entrepreneur. Did you have an aha moment and what propelled you to get into this journey?

Akash: Okay. So I can tell you like how I ended up in entrepreneurship.

There was no plan, when I was in childhood there was no plan that I will be doing any sort of entrepreneurship. If you met me 10 years back and asked me what I want to be in the future, my answer at that time should have been, I want to be in the teaching profession. I want to be a professor. So I did my BTech in electronics and communication. Then I got admission at IIT Delhi for Mtech. So when I was pursuing my master's at IIT Delhi, the same question was asked by my Master's supervisor. He asked me what do you want to be in the future?

So I told him like, I want to be the professor.

He then said, okay, that's fair enough, I can give you another problem statement. As you're doing your master's thesis, you can continue the work in the similar domain and you can pursue the PhD. I'll be happy to take you as a PhD student.

So one background is that I got diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa in 2003 when I was just 10-year-old. Due to which, I was losing my eyesight gradually. And when my Master’s supervisor asked me, tell me one thing, what will happen if during your PhD you are not able to read anything on the printed documents or anything on the computer screen?

How will you continue your research work? And at the time I was dealing with equations, which used to be three to four lines, even when you are typing on a A4 size sheet.

My Masters was related to electromagnetics EM wave, if you've heard about.

He asked me how will you manage you're dealing with such a complex equation right now. how will you continue working on your research during your PhD itself, if you lose your eyesight? And that was a trigger point for me.

I was not having any answer at that time. I said, give some time. Let me think about it. And then after a couple of days, I revisited him. I asked him sir can I do PhD with a topic that, how a blind person can do electrical engineering?

So then he said, yeah, that sounds a good topic, but I am not from this domain, so let us talk to someone who works in this domain.

So then we met another supervisor.

He immediately accepted me as a PhD student. He said, if you want to work on this problem, how equations can be read out for a person with blindness, I will be happy to take you as a PhD student. So that's how I entered the PhD.

I started networking with multiple persons with disabilities, multiple NGOs to understand what kind of challenges they're facing, what kind of practices they're adopting right now.

To pursue the different STEM content, like equations, tables. Yeah. What kind of practices are there and what kind of challenges are there? So, at the time we formed an informal group of different persons with disabilities who were doing engineering from ITTs, or even the foreign universities.

We started catching up on monthly basis. Basically we used to help out each other and I used to join that call to understand, these are the alternatives everyone is adopting. And this is the gap, which is there.

So, during the conversations which we used to have on monthly basis a discussion came up, the point was, we eight or nine people are able to help each other We somehow was able to break the barriers and able to come to the engineering domain.

But we know the ground reality. Even if you go to a lot of NGOs the blind person is always guided that you shouldn't pursue STEM education. Because that is not something which is accessible to you. You should one of the arts subjects. So then we thought, okay, let's join hands and maybe enter into some sort of an organisation where we can collectively work towards and utilize our own technical abilities and do something for the entire xxxxxxx

So that was a moment when we switched into an entrepreneurship mode, four of us we started first company, we ran it for around three years. We learned a lot of things, we did a couple of things for the community. And then during this time itself, there was a time when my eyesight reached to that level that now I can't read anything on the computer screen.

I needed to rely on the assistive technologies. I was the one who used to manage everything online in my family. Like if my father wants anything, I was the go-to person. But in 2021 when I lost my eye sight to the level that now I can't read anything on the computer screen, I felt like I lost my freedom.

Now I need to even rely on someone else to get the things done. So that was the trigger point. And then I said, okay I need to solve this problem. Anyway during the PhD I learned about all different kind of digital accessibility, like let's solve this problem at a larger scale. And that's led to the development of this service

Sudha: Wow, that's quite a story, quite an experience for anyone. So you've said about, why you started SaralX and it is about accessibility, for people with disabilities visual impairment probably, or anything that they have.

So what is your ambition for SaralX and how did you get to the name SaralX?

Akash: Before answering your question, I just want you to help with one thing because that is something which I find a myth. That people think digital accessibility is just for visual impaired. But that is not true. Digital accessibility is for multiple disabilities. In the visual disability, you can understand blindness, low vision, colour contrast.

Now let's talk about the other spectrum. Think about a person with deafness. You're posting an audio - video content, like you're posting this podcast now. Now think about a deaf person.

Think about a person who is a XXXXXXXXXX disabled, but the problems are in the upper body parts. Like maybe hands are not there or the fingers is not there, or the movement is very limited or the hands are always shaking to which they can't use the mouse pointer.

Then comes to the Neuro divergent spectrum. So in the neuro divergent spectrum, think about the dyslexia, you may be able to recall the movie Taare Zameen Par. If you remember that movie there was a child that child, whenever that child was trying to read anything in the book, all the characters were dancing, due to which he was not able to make out. what is the text written. So same problem a person with dyslexia is going to face when they're reading something on the digital screen.

So now what kind of things can be done for them so that they can easily read whatever is coming on their mobile screen or the laptop screen? So it's not just visual impairment. It's actually a very wide spectrum which get affected due to digital and in accessibilities.

Now, if I try to answer your question why the name SaralX. So SaralX is basically a combination of Saral and X. Saral means easy, it's Hindi word. Now X is a variable, it may be accessibility, it may be experience, so what we're saying is we are making the accessibility process easy. We are making the experiences. So that's how we came to this name SaralX.

Sudha: And what have been some of your biggest learnings on the journey?

Because I can't imagine that it has been very easy. A couple of years in, are their things you would have done differently and what are some of the biggest learnings from this?

Akash: So, one of the learning is you have to be patient.

You have to keep patient in what you're doing. If I even tell you, like when I started SaralX, the first one year even I myself was in a fear that will the company be sustaining or not? Will I be able to pay next month or not? But then a turning point happened, due to which the company got changed.

Now we are already into the growth stage. Where we are rapidly growing the team. every month. Every week the new members are joining in the team. So that kind of growth is what like one is like you have to keep patience You have to put the hard work. If you believe in your idea, just keep patience and things will happen. Other thing which I learned about this space specifically talk about the disability space. So the point there is, try to think of a B2B business model.

That was a mistake in my first startup This is basically the second startup. We were doing one mistake that we were focusing more on a B2C model. And in India, when you are trying to focus in a B2C model, that is something which is very hard. But if you can change your business model to a B2B model, then things can change drastically. That is what I even used to share with everyone else who are working in this space, that whether you have a product for a B2C, but still try to think of a B2B one, don't directly just focus on B2C. So that is one thing which I learned during my entrepreneurship journey.

Sudha: If you want to be sustainable, I think that is something that you have to think of. So I've heard about the social definition of disability and a couple of years back I've worked in the disability space as the chair of the PRCA, Equity and Inclusion Advisory Board. but at that stage I was still using people first definition of disability and then there is this organisation in the UK that they'd posted something and I wrote to the CEO then we had a conversation post that and she spoke about the social definition of disability So I knew about it, but I didn't know how important it was for people to adopt that model.

So, for our listeners, what is it exactly, and why is it important for you? Because I have seen in some of your, articles that I've read about the social model for definition of disability.

Akash: So point comes as when you're looking at disability, there are two faces of it.

One is you're seeing the problems which are there with the person. Another way is the barriers which are there in the infrastructure. Now, if you can remove those barriers in the infrastructure, the person who is not able to do the task right now will be able to do that.

I came across a video I'll narrate this by explaining video which I saw around a year back, in which what they displayed is - there was a town in which the only persons who sit on the wheelchair were staying. There was no one who walks or ran, without the wheelchair. So all the infrastructure, which was built in that town, was as per the requirement of the person with wheel chair. Like all the ceilings were not that high. Now then what happens is, when there was a person who was not having any disability, that person came to this town and was trying to enter into the house he was not able to, because ceiling was too low for him. His head was continuously getting struck with the ceiling. In this environment, what we call is a person not disabled, that person got disabled?

That person is not able to travel in this infrastructure. But the person who's sitting on the wheelchair has no problem. They can go around, they can do everything. There is no barrier for them because the infrastructure was designed, only keeping persons was on the wheelchair in the mind not everyone else.

So the same thing is there, like if you are designing any infrastructure, if you start thinking about everyone and you come up with a universal design of everything, whether it's a product, whether it's a software, whether it's infrastructure, then even a person, if there are problems in the different body parts, they will be able to do the things independently, and they'll be able to live independently without, depending on anyone else.

So that is what my learning from the social disability model, that it is not just putting the burden on the person. But putting the burden also on the society, because that is what is making them disabled.

Sudha: It is not catering to their specific requirements, so it's excluding people.

Akashdeep, what are your thoughts on the state of accessibility in India? How can we accelerate change? I know there is a lot of conversation and policies, etcetera but a lot of things don't translate from policy into real action, we are not seeing the change happen as rapidly as it should in order to enable everyone to participate in our society,

Akash: So, the bigger problem there is in India right now, the condition is improving, but I won't say it's very good. There's significant work which need to be done. The initial step which is happening is due to the legal pressure. There are a lot of lawsuits happening against the different organisations due to which they are putting effort and trying to make their systems accessible.

But if you see, what happens is when something is happening due to the pressure or due to the legal combats, that may happen for a month but that will not survive.

As soon as someone gives a green signal, they will stop focusing on it.

But if you can make it more sort of a sustainable model for them, make a more sort of business model for them.

Why they need to focus on disability, where they need to make sure that, their infrastructure or their digital infrastructure or physical infrastructure, whatever it is, that should be accessible, then this will go up. So you have to think beyond legal. Legal will push for a moment. And it'll get done for a moment, but it'll not survive. What I generally say is, when I discuss anything about digital accessibility with anyone. I generally ask them to think about when you are making your digital infrastructure accessible, first you need to get outta that met that the person with disabilities are very less because the census data is very inappropriate. Census data says that hardly, 2.2% of the population of India is a person with disability, which is highly inaccurate. There are multiple records which says that at least 10% of the Indian population is a person with disabilities,

That changes the narrative. That 2%, the 10%, if you're not focusing on accessibility.

Then the question comes as is you improving the user experience for that or also for everyone else? So the question is, it improves the user experience for everyone. The one simple example, which I generally give to the people is many of us nowadays started using the dark...

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There is research to show that climate washing is on the uptick along with a growing trend by companies worldwide to utilise carbon credits to offset greenhouse gas emissions. The trend (carbon offsetting) is driven largely by companies making net-zero pledges. However in the absence of standardised frameworks and regulations claims of greenwashing can undermine the credibility of carbon mitigation efforts examples: overstating the impact, under reporting harm to communities or environment

To understand the ecosystem better I spoke with Shreya Garg, a seasoned climate professional and auditor to share her expertise on the dynamics of the carbon markets. Independent auditors are key to building trust in carbon markets by provide objective assessment of projects, prevent misrepresentation of data. In our wide-ranging conversation we spoke about additionality, permeance, community impact…...

👉🏾 The evolution of the Indian carbon market from niche, compliance driven model to a more dynamic and voluntary environment

👉🏾 The burgeoning international interest in Indian carbon credits and what is fuelling the demand

👉🏾 Howglobal net-zero commitments and increased scrutiny around climate disclosures are major factors driving the evolution of voluntary carbon markets

👉🏾 The difference between compliance and voluntary carbon markets and how they can shape corporate reputation and sustainable practices

👉🏾 Why greenwashing remains a huge challenge

👉🏾 The need transparency, integrity and community engagement and technology in the evolving landscape of carbon markets.

In our conversation Shreya highlighted the necessity for equitable benefit sharing and community engagement to restore trust in climate initiatives. We also spoke about the need for more women in the climate space, emphasizing the unique perspectives they bring to community engagement and project sustainability.

To know more about carbon markets and climate washing head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Shreya, Thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Shreya: Morning Sudha. it's totally a pleasure.

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Shreya: So I'm Shreya, I'm a climate professional for about 14 years and I've been working in the carbon markets. Right now I'm associated with different organisations, gold Standard there’s FCF, India and Isometric. And my main work is guidance around the carbon credit quality strategies and market synergies. Prior to this, I was vice president operations at Earthood where I led a team of auditors who were working on validation and verification of climate projects.

Sudha: Brilliant. How has the carbon credit market transformed over recent years and what are the main factors contributing to this change? Especially when we consider a diverse country like India. I read a recent report that the carbon credit market in India is booming.

Shreya: Definitely. I think the carbon markets have evolved to a great degree. They've evolved from a niche compliance driven market to a broader, more dynamic voluntary markets. We have seen that there are no commitments per se, that are being made by the countries, but there are global players that are making their move towards climate action. So I would say the growth has been driven mostly by net zero commitments and also there has been huge demand in the voluntary market. And not to forget the heightened scrutiny around climate disclosures that all have played a role in shaping the markets.

When we come to the state of carbon markets in India, I would say there has been a combination of factors that has influenced. We have our own carbon credit trading scheme that is now shaping the market these days. And of course all the corporates are taking their sustainability targets that is providing the demand for the carbon credits and there is international demand for Indian carbon credits also. And there has been an increased awareness amongst the Indian businesses on how to utilize carbon finance to fund their decarbonisation strategies.

Sudha: That's very interesting. So are there big differences between the voluntary and compliance markets and why are they important for businesses?

Shreya: Yes, they are I wouldn't say diametrically opposite, but compliance market as the name suggest they're government regulated. So they're more like cap-and-trade systems.

So they're mandated by the law and involve legal obligations. However, voluntary markets are kind of self-driven and it's more like self-motivation, how you go to the gym every morning. It is not a hostile or it is not a regime that somebody enforces on you, but it's your own action and your drive towards a goal that takes you forward. So, both of them are equally important because the compliance market gives you the flavour of the requirement. So they help shape influence the mindset on what's good and what's bad. And the voluntary markets, of course take the step forward into doing the right things.

I think in terms of businesses voluntary markets do offer the flexibility. We also get influenced by the reputation. We have a certain notion about a company which says it is climate focused versus a company which is not making any such statements. I think compliance market, we can say we present the regulatory risk management. Like, India has its own targets and we are focused on certain things more as compared to other nations. So I think compliance market gives an overarching framework.

Sudha: And then companies can choose to go beyond compliance and of course it will help with their brand. It helps the business mitigate future risk but also I think in terms of reputation, like you were saying, it adds a huge halo to organisations. I think a lot of them are compliance driven rather than driven by altruistic or thinking about the world and society.

How do you evaluate the quality of carbon credit projects? Seems so deeply difficult to do and how do the criteria impact the credibility of organisations? Because in today's world, like you spoke earlier, everyone says that we are climate friendly, we are signed on to net zero and we want to achieve certain targets.

And a lot of people put targets that are in 2040/50 where probably nobody is going to be there to check them on accountability.

Shreya: Or nobody would remember.

Sudha: Yeah. Or nobody will remember. So, how do the criteria impact the credibility of these organisations?

Shreya: Very valid question Sudha and I would say that quality is always multidimensional.

And when we talk about carbon credits, there's certain aspects like additionality, permanence, leakage, monitoring rigor, not to forget, the community impact, and also the alignment towards science. When I say alignment towards science it's basically the adherence to the methodology that is checked when we are doing the quality checks.

And I say this because I've worked as an auditor for most of my life. So, I would say it's credibility of a credit mostly hinges on to these criteria. And how well are they integrated in a project. A project with a weak additionality, there were couple of cases earlier, a company would have gone for solar panels, with renewable energy anyway, with or without carbon credit. So how additional is that project? So if you were going to go for that, what is the benefit or should you have rightfully received the carbon credits for those projects or not?

And these kind of are the bigger questions and they form the general impressions on what should be done, where is climate finance more suited to be used, for example, maybe community-based projects where the same amount of money can benefit a larger number of people.

So a lot of these are qualitative issues, but issues like permanence, leakage, and monitoring are quantitative, which can be seen and kind of set in black and white.

Sudha: So have you seen poor criteria impact credibility of projects. Like , you say that there is a project that is happening and there are criteria for measuring the quality and when somebody does, I'll use the G word greenwashing, then they are just, like you said there is a solar project that's already there, it's a part of the business and are you really doing something in order to contribute or is it something that's there as a part of your business?

Shreya: I think that is the unfortunate part of being an auditor is that we are bound by the standards. So we are limited by the scope of the standards which sets the requirements.

So I was just having a call yesterday where I was saying that, as auditors, when we visit the communities, we do check if they are aware of the carbon project, if they are aware of a grievance mechanism in place. However it does not fall into our purview, how much money have they received from the project? What is the frequency of money that they have received? So there's certain aspects which do not fall under the scope of a carbon audit. So I would say there you can say a poor criteria. I mean, I wouldn't say poor, it is like a canvas which keeps growing.

I think the time we are going to see more added criteria as to auditing in scopes, I hope.

Sudha: And what are the biggest challenges you see Shreya in ensuring the accuracy and integrity of carbon credits? And how can these challenges be addressed? What have you seen so far in your career?

Shreya: Based on my career I mean, there's a lot of literature out there open for public right now. So I would say overstated baseline and emission reductions is like the biggest elephant in the room. Which accompanied by poor monitoring and verification, if you are saying something and which is not backed up by data is definitely questionable.

Then, another issue that I saw with the growing, land-based projects was the issue of double counting. Where same land parcel could be part of more than one project. So, I mean, double counting goes on very different levels, but this is probably the simplest example that I can give right now.

And, also, the local community education seems to be what is impacting the credibility of carbon right now, carbon projects rather. They have very little understanding of the project and as an auditor I see that as the integrity question also, because if they don't understand the importance of doing certain things, it's very difficult for them to follow that practice.

Sudha: How do you ensure it is sustainable Right? And it continues with their buy-in and not just keeping them on the sidelines. So you are an auditor. I mean, what is the role of auditors in verifying the quality, of these carbon credits and what are the key aspects of a robust carbon auditing process?

Shreya: Definitely. So I think, I wouldn't say these carbon audits is something new that has incorporated in the system, and few people may question that auditing has always been there, so how, how does it add value then? With it's existence, the quality has been low but I think it is always driven by the requirements. So whatever the ask is that becomes part of the checklist of the auditor. So if the ask is elaborate, then the checklist will be elaborate. And audits are very important to identify if the projects are real, if they're measurable, and if they're verifiable.

So I think auditing is very important and the important aspects of auditing, I would say that the baseline assumptions like you would say that before the pre-project scenario, like what was happening before the project came into be, and how has a project modified that practice, which is going to lead to emission reductions.

And ground truthing. So the physical site visits where the ground truthing also happens.

Sudha: That's very interesting because when I came for the Planet Dialogue Cognishphere event, I just read up on I think is it Verra where they had done a lot of double counting and they were called out for lack of transparency, et cetera.

Shreya: That's true. So Verra is a registry, it's a voluntary carbon registry based out of the US which is the largest in the world. So Verra takes up about 60% of the total carbon projects share. And there have been certain malpractices which have been highlighted for the projects. Like, I wouldn't say Verra’s malpractices, but the projects that had over hyped up there, numbers in terms of impact on the community's, impact of land and they will have inflated baselines also. So if I can give you an example.

There is avoidance of deforestation projects where, a company goes and say like, okay, this forest, no intervention is going to degrade because of all these factors. And there's a rate of deforestation that is presented which becomes the basis of their emission reduction calculation.

In certain cases, it was found that those rates were taken very high. It was presented that these forests are going to degrade in the next five years, if not intervened. So they led to inflated emission reduction. So those kinds of projects came into being, I mean, like every market there are bad players, but, I think Verra can take some of that blame by letting these projects go through you know, not having enough reviews.

But times are changing now all the registries have increased their scrutiny. I would say that there is more transparency in the market, so all the project documentation are available for public view on the registries now.

Sudha: That's very, very interesting and this is something we can speak about for a long time.

But let’s proceed to the next question. So, regulation across the world is like evolving and changing so rapidly and most organisations are still on the learning curve. Do you believe there is need for standardisation and if yes, where are we on that journey? Like on ESG reporting there's so much call for standardisation because companies are having to do a GRI, you do BRSR, you are doing something else SASB, and TCFD what is the process for standardisation? Are we trying to make it easier for people or more complex?

Shreya: That's very difficult question [Laughter] and I can just give you my opinion which might be in agreement with some of the industry people and may not. But I do think that there's no one size fits all approach or solution, because when it comes to regulations given the diversity of the country, the geographies, the capabilities and priorities, they're so different.

So how can we have one thing that is the most important you know, globally. So I think, that way standardisation may not work in the global scenario, but that said, a common ground is essential for building trust and, interoperability, like you said, are we making it easier or difficult?

So in order to make it easier we should all speak in the similar language. It's not like, each registry having its own terminology and making it more confusing, it is only going complicate matters. If a project can be named project in all the registries, that would make a project developer's life much easier, and easier for the buyers to understand.

But, I could think of recent times we have frameworks like I-C-V-C-M or Carbon Principles and we have voluntary carbon market initiatives, claim codes, which are kind of setting the priorities and the common principles that should be part of every standard.

Sudha: That makes a lot of sense. Shreya, you've worked in the carbon markets right from the start of your career. Right? So can technology be used to increase transparency and traceability and efficiency of these markets?

Shreya: Yeah, I think technology has come long way into, helping projects, how they report.

And now in the last five years we've seen this increased interest in nature-based projects, which were very complicated. But with technologies like satellite monitoring and when we talk about double counting and traceability. There are blockchain for registry traceability you know, carbon credits, like how do you tell if something which has been retired does not enter the market again. So, blockchain has also come into play for easier monitoring and verification. There are digital monitoring MRB platforms right now that are available. And there's certain companies that are specializing and have AI driven anomaly detection models.

So I would give examples of these land-based projects, again nature-based projects. So there are companies which can just through satellite images can differentiate an eligible piece of land from an ineligible piece of land, which required a huge amount of manpower to assess earlier.

Sudha: Wow. that's amazing.

Shreya: Yeah, so I like to believe that the carbon market is going through the growing pains right now. And I think with technology definitely is going to help it. And there are a lot of players which are focusing on integration of technologies into providing solutions, and I think which are going to help in integrity and accountability.

Sudha: Yeah. I think technology as an enabler, in this process is a great opportunity. We spoke about the carbon registry inflated claims, double counting, reporting, and this has sort of undermined the integrity of carbon markets and reduced public trust.

The rhetoric from the US on climate change, of course is not helping. They've rolled back so many things and other countries have seen and they're doing the same. How can we increase trust and make people see that what is being done currently is genuine climate action

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Show notes:

Did you know that ultra processed foods (UPFs) make 57% of the average British diet and up to 80% when it comes to children and people with lower incomes. And that the major food and drink companies lobbied to block the UK government’s efforts pushing for discounts on healthier and minimally processed products 

In the Indian sub-continent meanwhile, an average household derives more calories from processed foods than fruits (The Lancet study 2020). What is staggering is that this diet has been reshaped over the course of a single generation. While regulations around ultra-processed foods are tightening in both the UK and India, food regulations in India are considered weak, ambiguous, and industry-friendly, leading to a lack of strong front-of-pack labelling and effective advertising restrictions.

Last year I reached out to the Access to Nutrition Initiative (ATNI) in India - a pivotal global foundation dedicated to transforming the food industry to learn more about their work and the ATNI’s India Index. The India Index 2023 assesses the performance of the 20 largest food and beverage manufacturers of India. The findings based on 1,901 products are not unexpected but still staggering 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 The average Health Star Rating for all companies’ products is a shocking 1.9 out of 5, well below the ‘healthy’ threshold of 3.5

👉🏾 Sales of packaged F&B in India have surged by 15% every year since 2011, outperforming total food sales. Spending on F&B increased at a rate of 9% per year between 2011 to 2021

👉🏾 76% of sales are derived from less healthy products. Nineteen of the 20 companies derive most of their sales revenue from less healthy products.

👉🏾 The positives seven of the 20 companies have responsible advocacy plans and five institutional investors and shareholders of food companies in India have now signed up to nutrition frameworks such as the Investor Expectations on Nutrition, Diets and Health as part of their responsible investment strategies.

Another disappointing fact, specifically highlighted in the index is that products sold in low-income countries like India tend to have lower health star ratings than those sold in high-income countries, indicating that the nutritional value of products may be lower in lower-income markets.

The findings are an eyeopener for the food industry, consumers, regulators, investors and activists and reveal the need for reform and greater transparency.

And should we not be asking as to how and why is it acceptable for multinational companies to offer products with low nutritional value in poorer countries compared to their offerings in high-income countries?

Head to the podcast to listen to the episode 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Vivek. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room Podcast today.

Vivek: Morning Sudha. And thank you for giving me this opportunity to come to the podcast, The Elephant in the Room and share my thoughts with you.

Sudha: So let's get started could you introduce yourself for the benefit of the audiences?

Vivek: I'm Vivek Arora and I work in the area of food and nutrition. So right from the beginning in the career I was involved with the food production. And there was a turnaround in 2008 when I got the opportunity to produce therapeutic and supplementary foods, and that's how I got introduced to the space of Nutrition.

And since then, I found a purpose, earlier I was producing fast foods and now I'm producing food for a purpose or contributing towards nutritious foods. So that's the transition that has happened. Of late after that stint I worked with development sector like Tata Trust and then went on to be an advisor in the space of nutrition, where currently I am advising ATNI and GAIN. ATNI is access to nutrition initiative and GAIN is Global Access for Improved Nutrition. So both are, global foundations and I provide my advisory services to them.

Sudha: Amazing. So you've also made a transition from the private sector to the development sector and found your purpose with what you are doing with your experience to use your experience for the next stint. So tell us a bit more about what the ATNI is or Access to Nutrition initiative is.

Vivek: So basically Access to Nutrition Initiative is a global foundation. What we do is, we challenge the food industry, the policy makers and the investors to produce, nutritious food or, create food systems that are more nutritious.

So what we actually do is we analyse data and come out with actionable points that helps them to take on the decisions basically.

Sudha: Very interesting considering that the world is struggling with hunger in some places, and obesity in some places. And I read a news report yesterday that India is also on the cusp of struggling with, an obesity crisis. However, that's another conversation to be had.

So what do and sustainable investment look like for nutrition, and do you have examples of where it has worked? And what is the scale of investments that is being made in this industry and what is needed?

Vivek: So basically sustainable investment is like the investors and the bond holders.

They invest in food companies, which drive a sustainable change in the companies. So basically it is nudging the investors, and it is being done through different means so right from collaborative approach to we need to take shareholder resolutions.

We work with the companies we analyse; we share the data with them, and then they take action. So either the companies take it or we then provide the reports to the investors. Who then take it to the board or the CEO to take actions and produce more nutritious or sustainable food and healthier options to the population basically.

So the motto of ATNI is providing healthier diets for all so we are nudging the companies who are producing food in the market to provide and give healthier options. Just to give you an example, we worked with Unilever and there were certain, board resolutions and there was a collaborative approach where we had three rounds of meetings with them. And they later started disclosing data on healthier options that they provide. So there are different profiling models available across the globe. And there are government recognized standard profiling models. They started disclosing the data on it and that's the way you come out in public, you commit in public, and then you improve. Unilever is a very, very good example. They almost, kind of stopped marketing unhealthy food to the children. So it was a big achievement I would rather say.

Sudha: Yeah that's a big thing. My interest in this question is because I look at the intersection of equity and inclusion and ESG and sustainable development and I understand from some of the information that you have shared that there are at least 88 financial institutions who manage like 21 trillion in assets who are working with you to invest more responsibly in nutrition. So all of this conversation around ESG being dead or sustainable development should not be a priority, I think, sounds more and more like rhetoric.

Vivek: You are right. See there are people who want the healthier option, and that's what our approach is because where do you consume food from? You consume food from markets. Now imagine if the markets are not able to provide in any case would consume food. So the objective here is to drive that market and transform them into healthier options and more sustainable options.

That's what we are working for, basically.

Sudha: And you have sufficient traction on this from investors. I can see.

Vivek: Definitely 21 trillion of assets under management and 88 investors on our side and growing. So, it's almost one third of the total investment by the company. So significant and with more popularity, where the index gets recognized and used by more investors, we see a good progress here.

Sudha: That's great, so ATNI released the Indian Index in 2023. What was the focus of the index and what is the methodology of the research?

Vivek: So basically this ATNI index 2023 is not new to India. So the first index was in 2016 where we analysed 10 companies. And the second index came in 2020, where 16 companies were analysed. In 2023 in total, 20 companies were analysed. These 20 companies produce about, say, 36% of the total processed food available in the Indian markets, which is significant.

So how do we analyze? There is a set methodology, and under each section there are several questions and the companies are asked these questions and each question is marked, and then the then a ranking is published. Just to give you an example the different sections.

So the first section is, the methodology. So the first one is nutrition policy, so do they have a policy? Do they have a written policy? The questions are like, do you have targets under this policy? Suppose they have a written policy, but they do not have targets, they will not get full marks.

That is one that we analyse. The second is the products, so whatever products they're producing. So this is analysed based on the Australian star rating. So if it is having a more than three and a half star it is a healthy product or if it is below three and a half star, it is a less healthy product. So in total, out of this 20 companies, 1,901 products were analysed to come out with the results.

The third section is the responsible marketing, section where we ask them questions like, unhealthy products are not being marketed to children, or they are not using certain advertising means to consumer to consume, products which are unhealthy.

The fourth focus is on the labelling, so how are they labelling their products? Is it easy for the consumers to read the labels or judge from the labels. Is proper information provided in the labels. So that is also analysed.

And the fifth is the governance. So what is their governance mechanism? How transparent they are with the governance. So that is analysed.

And the sixth section is the workforce nutrition. So for their own employees? if they are providing the food or what is their policy, are they doing nutritional checks on their xxxxx. Is breastfeeding space provided in their factories. So such questions are asked and analysed.

And the last section is affordable diets. So do they take steps to make their food affordable and accessible for all? The biggest example is like having smaller packs of biscuits available so that it's more affordable. Or a small pack of oil.

The daily labourers in India, they buy oil every day, they don't earn money to buy one litre of oil. Initially they used to buy a loose oil, which was adulterated, not safe to consume. So now small pack of oil, they're available in the market so that they can procure this packaged oil and get safe oil. So those kinds of initiatives are appreciated.

So that's the whole methodology and once that scoring is done, then the ranking is published.

Sudha: And what were the key findings from the India Index? Were there some things that were startling and surprising for you?

Vivek: Yeah, so the biggest surprise, not a surprise because our indexes from last 10 years also showed similar trend. But the biggest revelation was that 76% of the products available from this 20 companies were less healthy.

Sudha: Oh my God.

Vivek: So this was the biggest finding I would say. And the sales that were being derived by the companies. So 19 of the 20 companies were deriving more sales from unhealthy products or less healthy products, I would say.

Sudha: Wow.

Vivek: So that was the clear finding that we could see and over these years, I would say that there was a slight change, so about a percent, of the company's producing more healthier products. But it was not, what we had expected.

Sudha: So one is about how unhealthy products are being marketed and that most products that are marketed are not the healthier ones.

Vivek: The healthier is 3.5 and about unhealthy, 76% is below 3.5 rating.

Sudha: Below 3.5. Was there an urban, rural, divide.

Vivek: No, it's difficult to find the data of urban and rural divide because we are analysing the companies and the sales from the company.

So on the affordability, yes, there is some data available as to what initiatives the companies have taken to capture the rural market because it's a very price sensitive market in India. So that data is available and they're making their products more affordable to reach the rural market.

Sudha: So more affordable but less healthy or more affordable and more healthy?

Vivek: Both. The nudge to the companies actually is to provide healthier options at affordable prices. So that's the nudge.

Sudha: Is there a difference between how local companies and multinationals behave? Because I feel personally having worked across the UK and India, that there is a stark difference, on how companies may behave in the UK, and then how they come into India and they behave differently.

Vivek: So, in that sense, yes, I would say that, if a multinational company is coming into India, then I would say that they should also bring in the global standards. But one stark difference that I observed, during the assessment was that the multinational companies are more organized in their documentation.

So they're able to present themselves better than a comparative Indian company. The Indian company might be doing things or taking lot of initiatives, but they have never documented that. So while assessment was being done, by ATNI, we also observed that there were certain companies which realized that, we are doing a lot, but we are not doing it in an organized manner.

We're not monitoring our progress over the years. So because of our assessment that also kind of a development or initiative, those companies who participated in the 2020 Index for the first time. They started now documenting.

Just to give you an example, one of the companies. So they, had a data of 250,000 people. Health data because they had developed an app, which was helping their employees for say consultation on health issues and XXXXXX data of their employees, plus their families. So imagine how much impact can they create, because they have a tool that is available with them to, disseminate good information and provide education to their employees plus their families.

Sudha: That's an opportunity to speak more about healthy choices. A lot of the Indian companies have not been very structured in capturing data, and so they may not have legacy data on where they started and what progress they may have made. But the good thing is, like you say, that they are getting on board and understanding the importance of capturing that data for the future.

Vivek: And, to everyone's surprise. This is an Indian company, so very progressive.

Sudha: Yeah. that's amazing. , Vivek, I have a question.

Should it be illegal for companies to be greenwashing to the extent that they do? Because if you look at , I don't want to name companies and all that, but if you look at some of the major, packaged food producers in the country, they all have some mandatory requirements, because of legislation to report on, what they're doing.

But in the recent past, a lot of people, instead of presenting specific data, they have used like vague sort of things to say, oh, we sell nutritious, or we believe in healthier, or they advertise about healthier. But they're not necessarily healthier products So there is a lot of greenwashing that is happening in the sector. First of all, should it be illegal and does India have policies and laws that require these companies to ensure that they comply with, best practice, nutritional standards? In the last response, you said, that when multinationals come into the country, they should bring in global standards that are good or best practice? What are your thoughts?

Vivek: See, in India, all the food companies, they are governed by the food regulator, which is FSSAI, Food and Safety Standards Authority of India. And there are standards laid down. Plus, the claims also are very well defined by FSSAI, so they need to follow and all of them do follow the regulation, but the gray area here is that there is no clear definition for unhealthy food.

So in want of that definition, there are certain gray areas where, the companies do go in for greenwashing. I would rather say. Also with multinational companies, the standards being adopted, say for example, an EU standard is more stringent than the FSSAI standard, but the companies are the experts. If the company or the manufacturer believes that this is a good standard, then whether it is the law of the land or not, they should bring in the global practice to the country. That's what I believe.

Sudha: That's true. They have a responsibility and an opportunity to do so.

And of course with, changing consumer behaviours, consumers are getting more and more conscious about what they're buying, I think that would be the way forward for them.

Vivek: I would say currently the consumers are ignorant. And, the manufacturers are the experts.

So the manufacturers should not take the benefit of the ignorance.

Sudha: That's very kindly put, I'd say,

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Show Notes:

The current negative sentiment and noise around equity and inclusion can feel overwhelming. At such times it makes sense to step back and celebrate the work of organisations steadfast in their vision (there are many of them around). The Taylor Bennett Foundation (TBF) is one such organisation dedicated to increasing racial and ethnic diversity in the communications industry that has been doing some stellar work to deliver on its purpose. I recently took the opportunity to invite Koray Camgöz, the new CEO of the TBF and one of the nicest people I know in the UK PR industry to talk about his priorities and focus.

Koray has been a staunch advocate for building a fairer and more inclusive industry from his time at the PRCA, including championing the work of PRCA REEB and the EIAB. Always extending himself to support the cause. So, it was great to hear him reflect on his experiences including his recent stint at Ketchum and how it has shaped/prepared him for his current role as CEO. We also spoke about 👇🏾 👇🏾 👇🏾

👉🏾 Systemic barriers that have historically hindered diversity, such as reliance on unpaid internships

👉🏾 The need to cultivate a supportive culture that welcomes and nurtures diverse talent

👉🏾 Koray argued for a steadfast commitment to DEI initiatives, linking inclusion to organizational success and innovation

👉🏾 Why leadership accountability is paramount for driving meaningful change within organizations

👉🏾 He shared examples of successful alumni and partnerships with leading organizations, illustrating the transformative impact of the foundation’s work.

The new CEO of Taylor Bennett Foundation envisions a future where the stories of diverse individuals are celebrated, positioning the Taylor Bennett Foundation as pivotal in reshaping the communications landscape.

To learn more, head to the podcast, link in comments 👇🏾 👇🏾 👇🏾

And keep tuned future episodes where I spotlight TBF and its incredible alumni.

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Hi Koray. Wonderful to meet with you after such a long time. It's been a couple of years, I think, since we last met. For the benefit of our viewers, let's start with a quick and a brief introduction.

Koray: Thank you Sudha, yes, and it's amazing to be with you.

I'm a huge fan of it. So, thank you, for inviting me back on. My name's Koray Camgöz. I'm the Chief Exec of the Taylor Bennett Foundation, which is a charity that exists to increase ethnic diversity in communications. I've been with the charity for just over four months now, and prior to that, I've been in communications for around about 15 years, most recently as a director at Ketchum and formerly with the PRCA and the CIPR.

Sudha: Congratulations on your role as the new CEO of Taylor Bennett Foundation. So how did the role come about and how has it been so far?

So tell us about how the role came about, how it has been so far.

Koray: Yes, I was with Ketchum for just over a year and a half in total. I worked principally with Adobe, but also with Samsung. But as you say, much of my focus was on corporate reputation.

I was in the corporate team at Ketchum. But everything that I approach when I was working both with client work and prior to that has always been through an inclusion lens and that carried over with a lot of work with clients as well. I was involved with a campaign with Samsung called ‘The Fine Line’, which helped kind of shine a light on issues around name bias. Inclusion, has always been a huge passion point of mine, and it was something that I was privileged to be part of at Ketchum but also prior to roles PRCA as well.

But in terms of how it came about, it was rather unplanned, I think is the best way of describing it. I was having a conversation with a friend. I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning it was Stephen Waddington. I was having a chat with him, and he mentioned that he'd seen this role advertised on LinkedIn. And as soon as he said it, I hadn't actually seen the role, so I didn't know there was a vacancy, but as soon as he said it, I thought that it was a really strong fit and just something that would align really well, and the more I went through the process, and the more I spoke to the trustees, it just became clear that this would be a brilliant opportunity, and obviously I've had the good fortune of working with the foundation, In different capacities, both when I was at the PRCA and CIPR.

So, and I know very well the impact that the organisation creates. And that above all was the big draw. It was the impact that it makes for people in our industry. So, it's an immense privilege to be in the role.

Sudha: I think we've had an opportunity to work on some impactful work with you leading the way at the PRCA. At the TBF, Koray, what are your priorities for the next two or three years? As a leader, what would you like to change? And where do you see the Taylor Bennett Foundation going?

Koray: The mission, I think, has been consistent since the organisation was founded.

So, the charity was founded more than 15 years ago now, and the mission remains the same. We're about increasing ethnic diversity and communications. It's a very straightforward and clear vision. I think for me the ambition over the next few years is to really scale our programs and expand our impact. I think there are 2 sides to that.

I think traditionally the foundation have done this amazing job of inspiring young people to pursue careers in communications and something that I'm genuinely passionate about is working with employers on the culture that exists in our industry and because you will notice that, but we can continue to hire people from diverse backgrounds until the cows come home, but unless there are real changes to cultures and to systems and environments in which these people are working, we'll be in a perpetual state of a lack of diversity. So it's all about supporting employers and helping them navigate their way through their transition to create more inclusive environment.

So I'm really, really focused on that. We've got lots of activity, which serves that purpose and we've got a round table coming up in May, which will be a first step towards that. But ultimately, yes, it's about inspiring young people and ensuring that the environment exists in our industry is genuinely inclusive and allows them to belong and to thrive.

Sudha: Yeah. Because I think the industry, per se, even as per the new census, there is more representation from Black and ethnic minorities. But like you said, if the culture isn't there, they'll probably get in and then get out after some time because they don't see themselves fitting in the industry and fitting in

Sudha: That has been a big challenge.

Koray: I agree entirely. And I think that is the most current and present challenge facing the industry. It's about making leadership accountable and guiding them towards creating genuine change in the organisation.

So I think that's the big picture. And I want the foundation to be part of that. There are some other brilliant organisations doing work in this area as well. But from my point of view, I'm really passionate about ensuring we play a positive role in that challenge. Something which I came to appreciate before the role was just how profound the impact was that this organisation, that the foundation has on people's lives. And that has become more apparent in my first few months, I think speaking to people right across the career trajectory and hearing from them firsthand about just what a tremendous impact the foundation has had on them has been truly inspiring.

So when you asked me about, the foundation and what we're going to be focusing on going forward, a huge part of that for me personally, is about showcasing those stories. And it's about giving our alumni and the people who've gone through our programs, a platform to tell their story, because there have genuinely been some incredible stories, and we want to make sure that those are told.

Sudha: I've just recently met with two of your alumni Hannah and Shanil. And of course, Kuldeep, we work very closely with, we're at the PRCA Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council, brilliant people. Koray, considering your background and you've now moved into, this is definitely a charity sector role. Have you been able to leverage your experiences and learnings from the PRCA and Ketchum? And how different is it to working in a charity?

Is it more consensus driven? Is it slower? Is it more fast paced? Because agency life is so deadline driven.

Koray: It's very different. I'll be honest. Particularly from consultancy life and to be honest, working at a large consultancy is very different from working at a professional body as well, so they're all very different from one another.

I think the one thing I would say about the foundation is that it's very much a mission driven culture. We've got a brilliant team and everybody who is part of that team is really clear on why they turn up for work. And I think that it's inspiring and it really helps ground you in the decisions that you make.

I think that's probably the first difference that I would point out. I think from a practical point of view, working at the PRCA and the CIPR was very useful for this role. I think getting to know the industry, getting to know the people, work in the industry at all levels, I think has been hugely valuable.

And obviously I've had, you could say the fortune or perhaps the misfortune of working really closely on studies, which evidence the scale of the challenge that we [00:08:00] face when it comes to diversity and inclusion. So, whether it was the state of the profession or the PRCA census, I've done lots of work that highlights the issues that we have.

But I think now in this role, we can make real efforts towards improving the situation and to making this industry more inclusive.

And the other thing I would also say is just generally about the differences and thinking about my experiences that working at Ketchum was genuinely, a brilliant and fascinating career experience. I think that the opportunity to get under the hood of the industry was, interesting. And I think, when you're working at the PRCA or the CIPR, you're often commenting or reflecting on industry issues, but you're not actually seeing them first hand

And so, whether you're talking about things like pitching or, the importance of mental health or whatever industry issue might be talked at the moment, it's just really illuminating and interesting to see that firsthand at an agency. And I'll always be grateful for my time, particularly for the opportunities that I've got to work with some clients and work with some brilliant people.

Sudha: I think your experience actually, with the CIPR and PRCA, I think it has prepared you for this, role in the sense that if you had come to it from an outsider perspective or from agency or somewhere else, you wouldn't know the industry as well.

And now, like you said, you've also worked on the agency side. So you understand that I'd say career life cycle or the challenges of running a business day to day, how it functions.

That's amazing. Koray, so I think we met before COVID definitely, but I think we started working together because of the PRCA. with what happened, the George Floyd murder and Black Lives Matter. And at that time, there was a crescendo around it and it gained a momentum that didn't exist before, people used to speak about it, but it was not front and centre.

And that's what COVID did is it brought it front and centre. But we've seen, from even my time at the PRCA Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council is that in 20, 22, 23, we were seeing the interest petering out and now with the kind of politics that is there across the world, the rhetoric that is happening we are seeing a lot of peddling back. I wouldn't presume to know all the reasons but of course, it's all exacerbated because of the cost of living crisis and there are so many issues, right?

The industry is not moving, not everybody is able to get the job that they want, etc. So in this sort of scenario, would you agree that we'll see momentum on DEI only if agencies are committed, but agencies have sort of stalled or stopped or pulled back because they think they can pull back or they are prioritizing business because they think this is something that is separate.

Would you agree?

Koray: To be honest, I'm, in two minds about it because it's impossible to ignore what's happening in the world. There are large multinational organisations who are terminating DEI efforts. And yes, there's a lot of headlines and news coverage and the sea of distractions when it comes to DEI at the moment.

But I'm yet to see a real impact in the day to day. And it may well be that that plays out over the next few months. But to be honest with you, from the conversations that I've had with agency leaders and comms directors those who appreciated the value of what inclusive strategies deliver for organisations are not dissuaded.

And to be honest with you, I think it would take quite an incompetent leader for you to think, okay, well, I no longer need to focus on inclusion now because of some headlines and things that have happened in the press, to be honest with you. Organisations and businesses always rely on people, and they rely on people to perform roles to deliver value, irrespective of what the organisation's goal is or a sector.

If you want productive people, if you want a loyal workforce, if you want to reduce churn, if you want to improve the decision making process, if you want a more creative, more innovative team, all of that is dependent on having a team, which it's comprised of people from diverse backgrounds and diverse lived experiences.

So my honest assessment on that is that I think, we just need to stay the course and not be distracted by headlines, which at the moment are seeming to never end.

Sudha: I think there's a lot of rhetoric and it's like tabloid journalism and people are just talking a lot about what shouldn't be done around DEI. And as you mentioned, the rollbacks that we have seen some prominent organisations do, but then there are others who've not rolled back, and these are big multinationals that are sort of leading the way and are thought leaders.

Koray: Yeah, just on that, I would say that you're spot on. The headlines are everywhere at the moment. I mean, DEI has been blamed for everything from forest fires to aircraft disasters.

And so I think we just need to be sensible and to stay really focused on the value that these strategies deliver for organisations and also just not be distracted or dissuaded from what we know to be true. There's an analogy which I heard when I was at Ketchum from a guy called Mike Doyle, who was the global CEO at Ketchum at the time. He still is the global CEO, and he spoke about the importance of kind of, if you look at a, a barometer kind of emotional responses with like one being the worst day ever and 10 being the best day ever, and he spoke about always staying in the four, five, and six.

So, irrespective of whether you think things are going particularly well or whether you think things are going disastrously, it's really important that you just stay consistent.

And it's the same concept that, even if things are going very well, register those victories, and, be proud of yourself, but don't get carried away, Stay in the four or five or six and I think that mentality can be applied to the challenges that we're seeing now that can be applied to your own personal life. I think it's a really important principle to adhere to, particularly in a world where things are changing all the time and there's a lot of noise.

Sudha: Yeah. I agree like you mentioned that when you're speaking with leaders, it doesn't seem like they are giving up on the prioritisation of equity and inclusion.

But I'd say that, with all the rhetoric and all the conversations that are happening and also with AI and technology and new tools, the people most likely to get impacted are people at the lower levels and I guess there'll come a stage where others also do get impacted.

How do we get leaders to continue to make a concerted effort to attract not just for the sake of representation, but also when they invite people in, they're inclusive enough. Do you think that leaders have that mindset at this point in time where they have that much of energy because it's so much harder to do business in the industry at this point?

It's not easy, right? Even for agencies, I don't want to mention the name of a agency leader, but they did, talk about technology and how in the future we are going to see in the next one or two years that they'll be employing more freelance and associate sort of models to get people in. Because they're not sure, clients are not signing up for the long term and they are more like short term projects and the retainer stuff is not as steady as it used to be. You knew earlier, I'd say maybe five years ago, you knew when the retainers were coming and they were going to stay for some time.

In that environment, how do you make sure that, the thing that is the easiest to do away with, you don't do that?

Koray: Yeah, I think, to be honest, if you're looking at it in those terms, it's almost impossible to prioritize inclusion to the extent that it needs to be.

I think you need to take a step back and think about why the organisation exists, what the mission is and what needs to be done in order to...

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The businesses most likely to succeed are those that are born to solve real life problems. Would you agree?

For Sakshi Mittal, a Wharton educated, investor at Softbank, a health crisis during her first pregnancy was the trigger to her entrepreneurial journey. The result was Foodhak – a physical and digital ecosystem that challenges the food industry and makes 'food as medicine' accessible to all. Technology and AI are used at Foodhak to gain insights from the latest research and empower consumers in their dietary choices.

The first time I heard Sakshi (her child was in the audience with a minder) speak at the India Week in London, I was intrigued by Foodhak (the name), her ‘food as medicine’ mantra, her decision to move away from a highly successful career at Softbank etc…. So I decided to dig deeper and invited her to be a guest on The Elephant in the Room.

In this free flowing conversation we spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

• Why it required courage to transition from a career in finance to entrepreneurship? We also spoke about the accompanying discomfort and uncertainty
• How Foodhak is leveraging technology, including machine learning, to interpret clinical research on nutrition, with the aim of empowering consumers with personalized dietary advice through an innovative app
• Sustainability as a core principle at Food Hak, using healthier and sustainable ingredients, like millets, while also optimizing packaging to reduce environmental impact
• Why work-life balance, is integral to her well-being and family time is an opportunity to recharge from the demands of entrepreneurship
• The crucial role networking and mentorship play in fostering connections that can lead to collaborations and support in developing a successful business.

She also spoke about the unique challenges faced by female founders, the influence of her family on her work ethics, her career trajectory, her partnership with Deepak Chopra…….

I am in awe of all entrepreneurs, the belief, hard work, commitment, dedication, the relentless nature of running a business – it is inspiring. And women entrepreneurs who navigate the intersectional demands of their personal and professional lives deserve especially to be recognised and celebrated.

So, here to celebrating risk taking in the pursuit of one’s passion.

To learn more about Sakshi’s journey head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Hey, Sakshi. Wonderful to finally have you here today as a guest on my podcast, The Elephant in the Room.

Sakshi: Thank you for having me.

Sudha: Let's get started. Who is Sakshi Chhabra Mittal? I saw you on the panel discussion at India Week earlier in the year, and I saw you have a very rich and varied experience, also of geographies, not just industries.

Could you share your experiences from childhood, school, college, family of what has probably shaped the person you are today?

Sakshi: I think that's such a big question. But it's a lovely question because it actually takes you back and helps you recap your life. And helps yoube grateful for those who've had a good influence on you and be grateful for those who challenged you because it's the combination of the two that kind of makes you and defines your life story.

I grew up in Delhi, family of five, there's three of us kids, I'm the eldest. Both my parents were very hardworking. So I feel like that hardworking element in me comes from just growing up in a family like that. I studied biotech. First job was at Pfizer, and I've always found the world of science and healthcare, life sciences, interesting. I've been always very excited about new technologies but always had a business brain.When I was in Pfizer, I kind of kept stepping outside of the box of my full time job and just kept studying the sort of commercials of things, even though it wasn't really necessary.

That's when I realized that, maybe it's time for me to combine my scientific knowledge or degrees with a business degree. That took me to Wharton and for the first time lived in the U. S. East Coast for a couple of years learned a lot from that experience. I'd had the exposure studying in India, studying in the UK and this time I was studying in the US. India and UK have a very similar education culture, I would say, and US is completely different. It's a really good complement, to, the English and the Indian style. I feel that that was a life turning moment for me. One of the many life turning moments, because I think the way you tell a story, America really teaches you that, whereas I don't think England and India teach you that necessarily. I think England is a very sort of humble way of storytelling and so it's not the most effective in my opinion, whereas I think the American way of storytelling is super effective.

And, had a really great time at Wharton. The first six months were very challenging, just given the different cultures. But, made amazing friends, my best friends for the rest of my life, still from Wharton. Overall had a great experience and it was important. I realised that I love technology, and I wanted to get into that.

And so moved back to England into the world of investments, because I felt that it gave you the biggest exposure into new entrepreneurial energies and technologies that are trying to disrupt and build the future of tomorrow. Started out with early stage investing. Invested in the likes of Deliveroo, Dark Trace, Babylon, that kind of stuff. These are all big companies now, and then got recruited by SoftBank, and that took me to Silicon Valley. So lived there for a couple of years, which was the West coast. It's a whole different world compared to the East coast and compared to my other experiences in life. It's a whole crazy bubble of technology, lifestyle, and it's just a completely different world. And that was amazing. Again, one of the life turning moments, I would say. And there I really got to hone in on life sciences and technology. I was at Softbank for six years, first couple of years in California, and then in London, I would say majority of that time kind of went into this life sciences, food sciences, future technologies, obviously did other stuff as well, logistics and this and that.

But I really enjoyed, looking at every single innovative technology that's touching healthcare and food from different angles. And it was during this journey, I was married, I was now pregnant. Unfortunately, I had developed a liver breakdown, during my first pregnancy, it's quite rare and the doctor said nothing can be done. And if it wasn't done properly, it could have resulted in a stillbirth. And it's the doctor's call, but if they take out the baby too early, then you have to deal with premature related side effects. Right? So, there was a lot of back and forth and different opinions and a lot of stress, let's just put it that way. I just didn't take no for an answer. I started looking at clinical research because that's what I do best. And I changed my nutrition, food along with other things, I mean, there was a lot of other stuff as well, but I managed to reverse it, control it all together, which like never happens.

Even the doctors were quite surprised. And so that's how the journey of FoodHak started. And even when I was at Softbank, to be honest, I was finding this more and more that, when you look at a disease, by the time you get a disease, it's often too late, right? And we don't die of age, we die of disease, which is very unfortunate. I believe that in the future, we will manage to die of age and not disease. What does that mean? That means like you and me we're gonna age, we'll be 120, and one fine day we pass away. We're not gonna be withering away with chronic disease, slowly dying a bad life. Do you know what I mean?

And the problem is that doctors don't study nutrition. To solve chronic disease, which is what we die off, chronic disease is all lifestyle. 80 percent of your lifestyle is food, but like I said, doctors don't study nutrition.Someone has to break this cycle. Someone has to bring intelligence to food. And today we live in the world of AI. We can easily use technology to our advantage, bring it to your fingertips on the go in the form of an app.

That's what we're doing at FoodHak. Build food products intelligently by swapping out the bad stuff, putting in the good stuff. You're actually surrounded with a better choice for the first time. And this way you kind of create an ecosystem of health and wellness which enables you to age and not get diseased. You know what I mean? It helps you live a good life, but also good health span. That's what Foodhak is all about. It obviously started from my own journey it was a personal passion, and I just thought the whole world also deserves this because there are other women who are probably suffering or other men who are suffering, but they don't come from a life sciences background. They probably, can't do what I can do. this was my calling.

Sudha: You've answered my second question about Foodhak and how it came about,

I was going to ask you whether there was an ‘aha’ moment when you decided, that okay, it's time to jump ship. The work that you did before that, that is a well-paid, well recognized, profession. Taking that leap of faith, becoming an entrepreneur, that clearly was accelerated because of your own situation.

Sakshi: Yeah, I mean I get asked this question quite often because you're right, like the job I was in I was an investor at the world's biggest fund, SoftBank. The most exciting place to be. It was a very well-paid job.

I had a great reputation and a great track record, had a lot of autonomy because I was doing life sciences, which was something that not anyone else in the fund could do, because it requires a lot of training, specific kind of training. And so, to leave such a comfortable spot and jump into entrepreneurship, which is basically, forever being uncomfortable, because it's dynamic, fast changing, challenging, oftentimes lonely. It's really satisfying when you find a passion and you turn it into business, which also has a ‘better for you’ element, where you feel that you are doing something good for the world, for the planet, for the people. I think that for me, luckily, I have that trio, where I can see the business it's in the biggest trend in the world for the last, five years has been health and wellness.

And I think it's only going to continue. I'm passionate about it through my own story and I feel like I'm doing something good. I think that's what really helped me take that leap and that's what really drives me every day today as well.

Sudha: Is the name Foodhak significant? And you've spoken about business purpose, you've spoken about your passion., So was purpose and passion an important consideration for you when you were starting off?

Sakshi: I think so. To be fair, like when I was starting off, the most important thing for me was that there is a gap in this market.

And I had been looking at trends, across life sciences and food sciences for five years now. I'd seen everything from gut microbiome to blood testing, to DNA testing, from technologies in Israel, to, West coast, to UK, to India. I'd seen it all. Right? And I think when you're in that position, you can almost look into the future and be like, I know this is it, like there is a gap, I know we're moving in this direction, and I was right. After I'd started Foodhak, like I'd heard, there were other food as medicine companies. So, I think that was the biggest thing for me where there's definitely a market.

And, when I was at SoftBank, I tried out the product, as a side hustle, I would spend evenings and weekends cause I was so passionate about it. I did a lot of testing as well, prior to jumping into this full time. And I learned a lot about the product, the packaging, the distribution, the delivery, the logistics, the challenges.I spoke to a lot of customers, my early adopters to understand if is this a small niche or is this a massive niche, so that also gave me a lot of comfort. But I do think the purpose and passion, I'm sure, it's the secret sauce that really drives you because it's really challenging to be a founder. The only thing that kind of keeps you going on a day-to-day basis, is the passion.

Sudha: Yeah. In your previous, avatars you have Sakshi, worked in an aggressive, male dominated industry. Did your experiences sort of prepare you for this journey? Like you say, challenges are the norm, discomfort is something that you need to face all the time and be prepared for every single day. How has that contributed to this journey that you have been on?

Sakshi: I think you've nailed it. It a hundred percent has. To be a founder, sole founder, female founder in a male dominated industry, world, whatever you want to call it, you need to have a training of a warrior. Which means you need the stamina, which means you need the thick skin. I don't want to use the word aggression because it's viewed negatively when it comes to women, but you need that passion and assertiveness to make a point when you know you're right. And I think you learn all that when you are put in this discomfort, where you are the minority, where you are the different voice on the table. And you have to make your voice heard.

And you learn that in a male dominated work environment. So I'm quite grateful for it to be fair. Like when I was at SoftBank, did I ever feel like I was disadvantaged? Maybe sometimes, like when it came to times of promotion and titles. But like most of the time I felt that when you're working on a deal we're all presenting our smartest analytics, we're all trying our best to analyse and predict, is this going to be a good multiple of investment, like there's a lot of math, there's a lot of diligence, there's a lot of hard work, sincerity and I feel like we're all doing that and presenting our best. I would say that I honestly look back at my time at SoftBank and really enjoyed it. That was also one of the changing moments, like we touched upon previously.

Sudha: What are the upsides to starting your own business and the downsides, of course, especially as a woman led founder?

Sakshi: That's a great question. I mean, the upside hopefully will be that your passion and purpose turns into a big business that's globally recognised and people are benefiting from it. People are thankful that your product exists on the shelves, where they can now have a better pantry, when you open your cupboard for snacks and your kids, they are surrounded with a better choice. And more and more kids are suffering from obesity. And if you feel that you've played a part in helping resolve that in the future, these are all parts of the upside, right? But I would say like the upside takes a while, whereas these early years, most of the time, there are just challenges in the hope that one day you will see the upsides, right? And you believe you will. I believe I can. I believe I know I'm going to do it.

But it's just these initial years, there's a lot of day-to-day challenges. There's challenges in team building, there's challenges in being a female founder, and having a team. And I think just generally females are more empathetic and we like to hear other people's voices around the table because that's just how we are genetically. But then the challenge is when you heard other voices, and you still want to put your voice forward, right? There's challenges around that, there's challenges around building a team for the long term. There's challenges around raising money, because people have biases in their minds.

Sudha: I hear these all the time. Absolutely. And how important would you say Sakshi are networks, mentors, collaborators, and support systems when starting a business? Congratulations on the collaboration with Deepak Chopra. That's huge.

Sakshi: Yeah, it's huge, I think if you build an authentic business with a real purpose, I think these kind of like big collaborations happen and I do believe in energies and the universe's way of us being connected. Trust in the universe, putting out your positive best self and good stuff will come back to you. I do think network mentors, I would say for me, these are the most important things, and to build a network, you have to be out there telling your story, out there meeting people. And that's not easy, actually. People think it's, oh, you're out partying. It's not a party. It's quite the opposite, because you've just worked all day, you've now gone out at night and you're working, you're `selling the story, And that's how you build networks and relationships and collaborators.

And I think they're very important in my opinion, probably the most. I think above that would be the strength in your product. I've always believed in building an amazing, technically superior product, because I think once your product is strong, like for me in the food space, it has to taste amazing.

And of course it has all the scientific health benefits. Once I've cracked that, I would say it's all about, where can you get it? And how do you do that? It's through your network. So, it's extremely important.

Sudha: Absolutely. I mean, I think women often struggle to make that time, to build networks. And people don't realize that it's a slog, it's just a slog. So, as a business, how are you using technology, including AI to create an advantage, if at all, if you're using AI?

Sakshi: Yeah, so when I started, the biggest problem was that the clinical research on food is very noisy. It's a very biased data set because the large trillion-dollar food companies that are poisoning us today, they tend to bias this data by funding research or whatever. And that's very hard for like a average human to like pick-up a clinical research and understand which one's a good piece of research or a bad piece, right? Which is why there's a lot of confusion in the food market, a lot of fads and trends that come and go because, no human brain can keep up, with...

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2018, was a defining year for me career wise, it was also the year when I was able to live up to my aspiration to contribute a percentage of my time pro-bono to the third sector. I had the opportunity to align and engage with PRADAN, a leading Indian charity working in the livelihoods space. This opened the door for some wonderful collaborations and strategic work with the organisation in the last 6 years. The person who enabled this partnership was Sudhir Sahni – our paths had intersected briefly in the past.

A veteran of the Indian Advertising Industry, Sudhir made a deliberate shift to the non-profit sector after three decades, in the quest for work that aligned with his beliefs. At PRADAN Sudhir leverages his experience to foster partnerships and amplify PRADANs impact amongst external stakeholders.

In the 130th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, Sudhir talks about his transformative journey from the corporate to the social sector; the intrinsic motivations that guided the move; his desire for a collaborative approach to work focusing on individual potential; challenges faced by the development sector; the evolving funding landscape; equity and inclusion in the third sector; a community centred approach to delivering projects; women in leadership; ….etc.

We also spoke about the impact of Transformers an interview series featuring leaders and best practice from the third sector and Samagam, a multi-stakeholder platform conceptualised and hosted by PRADAN to facilitate dialogues and collaboration amongst the third sector, private sector and governments.

It is great to call a fellow champion and ally for women in the workplace, a friend.

To hear more about Sudhir’s transition to the third sector head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Sudhir. Welcome to the Elephant in the Room podcast today. Thank you for being a guest.

Sudhir: Hi Sudha, it's always a pleasure talking to you. Happy to be with you today. Thank you.

Sudha: So let's get started. My first question to you is how did this move happen from advertising to the social sector or the impact or the development sector? Was this a planned move the? Last time I'd met you before you were with Pradan you were at Ogilvy?

Sudhir: Yeah. I've had a wonderful career in the advertising world over almost about 28 odd years and I loved what I was doing. And I loved, the kind of influence it had on people, on consumers. So that was great. At some point I felt that my style of working and engaging with people was I would say far more collaborative than competitive, which is required in the corporate world. And for me, I think getting the work done was more important than getting credit for it.

I was beginning to wonder whether at a certain point I may not be so fit for the corporate world going forward. And my learning curve was beginning to plateau. And I would especially find pleasure in helping people achieve their tasks and realize their potential the underdog performing was far more exciting, than the champion team delivering a winning campaign I felt that maybe I may have a far more, if I may say, you know, within quotes, socialist outlook. And was happier to create more equals within the team than, create or deal with unequals.

So that was beginning to fester in my mind.

A couple of campaigns that really excited me. One was The Pulse Polio Immunisation Campaign wherein you had to mobilize almost the entire population that had kids up to five years of age repeatedly on the immunisation days and get them to the booth and get their children given the polio drops and it was a remarkable kind of success. We managed more than 98 percent of the population coming to the booths. So that was very exciting, inspiring.

The other one was VDIS, which was the voluntary disclosure of income scheme, which was actually way back in 97 which was basically inspiring a nation to actually come into the mainstream and pay taxes. Not too many people were wanting to do that, and there were a lot of people who found reasons not to pay taxes. How to get people over a six month period to actually join the mainstream by paying taxes was quite a task. The success that we achieved over that six months period was quite exciting. And I thought that, you know, these kinds of things of mobilizing people and having a large impact on the audiences that we deal with was something that was exciting. And I was beginning to therefore look at the social sector as an option going forward.

So I started looking around, I initially went into something else related to advertising and communication and even sports marketing for a while. But again, I felt that I was looking at creating more new talent and helping the marginalized people coming into mainstream rather than just dealing with champions. And then in conversation with my wife, I felt that I would look at some social causes. I looked at garbage recycling, I looked at other issues, but essentially my wife then kind of inspired me to say that, I've always worked well with people in a good organisation. So I might benefit more by joining a large organisation that is already doing some good work rather than try and create some small niche for myself. And that's how then I started talking to more people within the sector.

And I think by a happy coincidence frankly, I met Naren who was my batchmate from school. He had been in Pradan for over 28 odd years or so. He later became the executive director of the organisation. So I kind of chatted with him and I was telling him that I was looking to do something in the development sector. And he said, you know what? I've been around here for about 28 odd years. And I said, okay, so I really want to know what you do.

I understood what Pradan did, I had an eight-day field visit, and I was absolutely thrilled, amazed at the kind of work that the organisation was doing in the sector. And I thought that this was something that would interest me. So that's how finally entered the development sector. And I've been in the same organisation for over seven years now.

Sudha: Wow. What I really like, Sudhir, that you are very self-aware about where you were headed and where you were going because often we are not self-aware and I think despite being deeply unhappy, or despite recognizing that we are not actually using our strengths or talents to go where we should be, we continue to exist in the same sort of ecosystem and struggle there in the short and long term.

So that's an incredible journey. You've answered some part of the second question, what caused you to take that leap of faith? And what drew you to the sector? I think you could elaborate more on what drew you to the sector. You knew Naren, which is a very happy coincidence. it is like quite a seismic move for somebody moving from the corporate to the development sector.

Sudhir: I was closing on to 50 years of age then, and I was thinking that even in my earlier days, both at work and even earlier days in school and college, I was always very interested and excited by helping some of my colleagues or some of my students who are not doing so well.

Even in Ogilvy, I was very keen and there was a time when there was a business that was coming our way. And I felt that the direct marketing team would do a better job of managing their business.

And I offered that business to that team and the head of that stream Ogilvy XXXXX XXXX, he says, why are you giving me this business? Is that a lemon? I said, no, no, I just feel that your team would do a far better job of managing that business and delivering on it rather than, the advertising business.

As I said, that the development sector, social sector gave much more opportunity for that kind of thinking, that kind of collaborative working. Also, I think Pradan is an organisation, what drew me to that was that it also believes strongly on realizing individual people's potential. That always felt that and my thinking also was that financial resources and in fact, even time resources, that time wasted can be made up. But if professional resource, human resource talent is wasted, then that's the biggest miss that we have.

And to that extent, this organisation, as I mentioned, Pradan kind of seemed to echo the same thought. And that's why got more interested in joining the sector.

Sudha: That's why you gravitated towards it. And how has the experience been, was it a shock to the system?

Was there a difference in how people operated?

Sudhir: Yeah Sudha, so frankly, I think for me both the initial months and almost now seven and a half years that I have been there in the sector and in the organisation, I would say quite surreal at one level and I would say extremely fulfilling on the other because frankly, and I consider myself still as a bit of an outsider from the sector.

And I think I'm quite in awe of the development sector workers and professionals, and I strongly believe that, the work that they do is far more complicated than selling soaps and shampoos, but even selling IT products and financial products. So the work that they do, commitment that they have is, something that really overawes me.

You know, it really beats me how young people can commit their lives to work for others and the society rather than look for personal material gains and comfort. So I think this approach of being more collaborative and inclusive is something that really excites me. But on the other hand, I think at times I feel that there might be a lack of commitment in terms of deadlines and timelines, because I think a lot of people within the sector believe that good work needs to be done. It doesn't need to have a timeline. It doesn't need to have a deadline. And that sometimes used to frustrate me and at times even frustrate me now. But overall, I think the fact that I entered with the idea that I would have to pick up things and I was willing to join even as an apprentice in the organisation.

So because I think I came with an approach that I would learn and then take things forward. I thought I had a pretty kind of seamless entry and kind of carried on in the organisation for such a long time.

Sudha: Some of what you say I have experienced whenever I visited Pradan and the field visits.

And for those of us still on the outside or on the margins, it seems like, a big sacrifice because there is a sacrifice in terms of material gains.

So, at Pradan what is your role, Sudhir, and how do you leverage your corporate experience, if at all, if you get a chance.

Sudhir: Yeah. So I think that was really the idea. So even when I looked at the organisation and I was talking to the people around there, I think the idea was that I should leverage some of the skills or experience that I bring from the corporate world.

The starting point of course, was that I said that the organisation does some great work. Why don't people from outside know about it or why don't we talk about it? And the people in the organisation that have xxxxxxx xxxxxx said that, no, we are very good at our work. We focus on our work. We really don't know how talk about it. So if you think this is worth talking about and it is useful to talk about, please go ahead and do that for us. It was more about talking a lot more about their work and showcasing it and putting it in the form that could be shared.

Because I had a corporate experience, I had networks, I could then bring in more corporate partners. So even as Pradan was growing as an organisation and wanted to increase its reach and impact, it needed many more partners corporate partners to support its funding efforts.

So first in terms of communicating their work and two in terms of getting more corporate partners was essentially the area that I was working with. My sense is because, over the years, I had developed certain level of credibility with the people that I worked with on the corporate side. They were willing to consider the organisation that I was working with, even though they may not prima facie have had too much experience or awareness about the organisation. So that helped a lot. And I think both the organisation and I benefited from each other’s association.

Sudha: And I think the start of the journey, I remember we did a huge stakeholder mapping exercise around the brand and how they were engaging, et cetera. My next question actually leads into, some of the challenges facing the sector and because the world over the sector is facing, issues to do with funding. Funding is getting squeezed, there is changing expectation from donors, partners, stakeholders. There is a need for more transparency and of course the sector suffers from lack of inclusion. And the perpetual challenge about the inability to attract the best talent because of how they are remunerated, and also the perceived problems that the sector faces.

So there are two questions here that I have for you. One is, is the sector prepared to face some of these challenges or all of these challenges? And two is what are the steps it's taking to address?

Sudhir: I think fair question Sudha, I think a lot of us are still grappling with those issues.

But I think if you look at it on a larger scale and go to the basics of it, I think as a sector, and many of the organisations, including the organisation that I work with, has tended to stay away from communicating the work that they do. And how does that work happen? So there is almost a sense of mysteriousness, and almost a shadow on what the organisation and what the sector does and how does it do it.

And as I said that, because a lot of the larger organisations and the sector overall has not invested too strongly in communicating or talking about its work, there is always been an unknown factor. People say, we don't know what you're doing and whether there is any evidence of proof of the impact that you create, what is the process that you follow.

And there is almost a, I must say, you know, reverse snobbery in the sector. They say, no, no, there is no point telling you because you will never understand. And I keep telling people that, you know, that's not the way to happen because if you need more people to come and work with you, you need more talent to come within the organisation, then you have to be far more open and communicative about what you do, even though it might seem a little difficult to do it.

So I remember I met a development apprentice once in Pradan, a person had joined only about six, seven months back. And I said, okay, so how are things, how does your family take the fact that you have a professional engineering degree and you are now in this sector? So he said, you know, whenever I go back home and I will say that this in Hindi, he says, "jab bhi main ghar jaata hun toh mera ki mera babla beta aa gaya".

So this almost mad guy. I don't know what does he do? Where does he work? I really don't understand what he does. And he said, you know, I've tried a couple of times to explain to him, but now I've given up. And he almost kind of half broke down, he says, because I think my father will never understand and I don't want to explain it to him. And I said, no, you need to understand that your father has a right to know, and also it's important for you to explain, because frankly, I think your dad, his network, his people, and a lot of people outside the sector need to be your allies. They need to understand what you do and you need to explain it to them because how on earth otherwise will they kind of come around to supporting the work that you do.

And you need all people to work with you. So you need to collaborate with a lot of more people, you need to educate some of the key stakeholders. And this I would think, imagine goes with the corporate sector, with the funding stakeholders, and lots of times, even the government sector needs to understand what the sector brings in to make impact on a scale, how important it is to get good talent.

This is a matter, not just for the heart, but it means a lot of good head and good thinking to make the change happen and therefore it requires that kind of talent. Also the fact that it needs a certain level of time and investment in communities, relationships, building that confidence for us to help make that change happen.

So overall, I think there needs to be a far more openness and a sharing collaborative kind of approach where a, you talk about the thing that you do, what is the process it takes to bring about change. The fact that it could be time consuming and therefore people need to stay invested in it, the fact it needs very good talent and resource to be put in and therefore good talent should be remunerated.

I think the areas broadly that I think. If we were to look at would be very useful for the sector to benefit from and for overall development program. Because frankly, I think the development sector the NGOs organisations actually help the government programs work far better. A lot of organisations like Pradan and others who work with communities at grassroots, I think, bring to the table what the communities really need.

And therefore, in that sense, help governments and other institutions design their programs far better. And two is, once those programs are designed, I think it also helps them to implement them far better. If the government is the biggest development stakeholder and has huge amounts of money, then that money needs to be used well, and I think in that sense, the NGOs or the development sector stakeholders are very crucial, and people need to understand the role that they play.

Once they understand that, and the more they are understanding that, I think there's far more openness now and acceptance of the roles that stakeholders play in the process.

Sudha: Whether it's the government or the private sector or individual public, if you're speaking about a country like India to solve some of its biggest problems, the government cannot do it on its own. It needs the...

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As a podcast host one of my biggest joys is celebrating incredible people making a difference. People who I know through my work or because of my podcast or from my networks who have raised the bar either in their personal or professional life.

My guest on the 129th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is Ashima Tyagi, our lives intersected briefly in the late 2000s when we worked in different divisions of one of India’s largest PR and PA agency. At the time Ashima was a rookie, getting to grips with operating in male dominated and patriarchal metals and mining industry in India. Fast forward to 2024 when I bumped into her on LinkedIn. I was chuffed to see Ashima Tyagi was Economics Associate Director, at S&P Global Market Intelligence unit in Singapore.

I had a lot of questions for her – about the move from Delhi to Singapore, her experience of living and working in a new country and culture away from her family. I was curious to understand how she was navigating work-life balance and what it meant to her, especially considering that we have it drilled into us, that hard work (long hours) and sacrifice is the route to success.

We also spoke about her leadership style has evolved over the years, the impact of imposter syndrome, how organizational culture can drag women down or enable them to thrive, her role in WINS S&P Global, networks and networking, her advice to young women joining the industry today, what motivates her and ambition……

While Ashima’s may not recognize it her move to Singapore was a brave decision at many levels a) She had never moved cities before b) She was leaving behind her husband and one year old son c) Her motivation was personal growth. Not many young women in this part of the world are able to priorities their personal and professional ambitious and it continues to stymie and disadvantage them. So, kudos @Ashima Tyagi, every little step counts……

To hear more about Ashima’s personal and professional growth head to the podcast (link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Ashima. Wonderful to have you finally as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast. We've been like talking about this for some time, but it wasn't quite working out until now.

Ashima: Thanks Sudha. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I really appreciate it.

Sudha: So, for the benefit of our listeners, I know you from our time together at Vaishnavi, where we interacted briefly. let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Ashima: I've spent nearly, I think, 16 years plus in the commodities world and currently I share my expertise, insights as an economist, primarily in the metals and mining sector. In my current role, of course, we're helping clients navigate the volatility that we see in the supply chains. And we do this by embedding all of that in our pricing forecast and buying strategies and that helps our clients also achieve cost savings, on all the things that they source.

Sudha:

Not everybody understands the commodities market, so you've explained it very well in layperson terms. So Ashima, you moved a couple of years back to Singapore. What has been your experience of living and working in a new country and culture?

And of course, Singapore has a huge expat community.

Ashima: Yeah, I relocated to Singapore around six years ago, but because of the pandemic, it just seems even smaller. And I've experienced remarkable personal and professional growth, I think this time. And the context to that is that I literally never even moved cities within India during the first three decades of my life, let alone moving countries.

I was born in New Delhi, brought up in NCR, which is the National Capital Region, always stayed with my parents, and then after marriage, in my husband's home with my in laws. So, it was a very protected and sheltered life. Primarily worked in Connaught Place also where we worked together, and everything was largely in my comfort zone.

Moving to Singapore was a big step, was a huge step, but I wanted to take it for my professional growth. I had been working in India for a decade and was feeling very stagnated. But the challenge initially was more on the fact that I was leaving my one-year-old son behind. So emotionally, it was very wrecking.

The work that I was also doing was completely different from what I was doing in India, though I was within the steel industry, but the work profile was totally different. So again, it was a huge learning curve.

Plus, when I moved, it seemed the work experience of 10 years in India just didn't matter because you have to prove yourself all over again and It was very difficult. I realized that we sometimes tend to be in a small bubble of our own and when you move countries you realize that the world is much larger. I think back in India, I considered myself one of the really smarter ones, I always had that confidence, but when I moved here and was surrounded by talented people from like all over the world in my company, I just was a little unsure of my own talent for a while. And I also realized how rigid I was, how set in my own ways I was. And being a vegetarian also didn't help much, I think. So in the first couple of months, it was quite difficult. There was a little bit of crying. There's a little bit of helplessness. I thought I made a mistake by moving because your life was comfortable back in India.

I contemplated returning but a friend in Singapore that time told me, just hang on for a year, experience things, and she was of the view that Singapore is going to spoil you because it's so comfortable and easy to live in, and you will never want to return. And her words came out to be true.

So here I am, for the past six years and not wanting to go anywhere.

Sudha: Oh, how interesting you’ve spoken about how the experience was, moving to a new country and how it made you question yourself. As women, we tend to question ourselves constantly. We suffer from the imposter, we have self-doubt, with the best of qualifications, you can still be very worried about whether you will fit in or whether you're capable enough. So how do you as a senior woman professional, how do you find the balance between your personal and professional?

Especially since you're in a new country you have to prove yourself again. That experience, like you said, that decade long experience just doesn't count because people don't know you and you have to start all over again. You also mentioned you left a one-year-old back home and that's a very difficult thing to do. So how did you manage to create that balance where, you are able to focus on your priorities both personal and professional?

Ashima: Yeah, I, to be honest, never been thinking about this too much until recently.

And I'm glad we're recording the podcast right now where I'm having a little bit more clarity rather than a year back. I'm not proud to say this, but I think this year is really the first time in my life that I'm focusing on my health and focusing on the time I'm spending with my two kids now, which are seven and three, instead of just hustling away and trying to achieve more and more professionally.

Obviously, the thinking that time was that you are achieving professionally so that you can provide your kids with the best of education. But now I'm realizing that the kids need your time and attention as well. So, I'm hearing a lot of stories on how, teenagers sometimes are not connecting with parents. And that has primarily to do with the fact that parents didn't have conversations since the beginning. You don't speak to the teens when they grow up, you speak to them when they are young, when they are toddlers. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think you cannot have a perfect balance for sure.

It's always tilting on one or the other side and still you have to actively plan, and you have to constantly try to balance things out. And you could do it by, sometimes setting boundaries, sometimes prioritizing self-care or utilizing your support networks. So, in my case now, there are trips that I've taken, with a group of friends so leaving my kids, spouse, everyone behind, so which means that it really allows me time to myself.

So I do that once in a while also, but at the same time I have to manage the kids as well. So it's a constant, everyday a balancing act, but it's never in a perfect state of balance for sure.

Sudha: Yeah, definitely there's no such thing as a perfect balance, your priorities keep changing I think day to day, week on week, month on month, year on year as children go through various stages. And yeah, there is no right way to do things. You just have to wing it. And like you said, you just have to set some boundaries at some point to give yourself also the space to be able to do everything justice, everything that you have on your plate.

So Ashima, I speak a lot about women and leadership, and this is something that I want to ask you also about different styles of leadership specifically to do with women, what has been your own leadership journey like, and do you have a specific style and what does it mean actually to be a leader?

Because in the past couple of years, we have new definitions, we've redefined what leadership means. what are your thoughts on this?

Ashima: Again, it's a very good time that you're speaking to me now, because as I said earlier, I used to be all about hitting goals, targets, being ambitious, super driven, ready to put in the hours. Working during the weekend was never a big deal for me. I never understood why people make a big deal of it, you know, used to do it quite often. And where I was coming from was the fact that back home in India, I like sometimes see your maid coming to your house, going to 10 different houses, doing the cleaning, working so hard.

So I used to think that my life is still comfortable, I don't have to work as hard as millions of people are working in India. And if I work over the weekend what's the big deal about it? I could do that much and, we are very resilient. So even in the pandemic, I think I was literally pouring myself into work, unlike many people who were baking banana breads or, experimenting with skin care, which I now think was the right thing to do, you know, for self-care in those stressful years.

For me, I would say the style was more performance driven in the recent past also. It was more about, executing and deciding to go after things and get them done and the sense of accomplishment that you get after that. But now again, I'm leaning to the more empathetic style, given my, again, own circumstance where I have young kids, diverse responsibilities.

I think I understand things better for everyone. I get that, not everyone can bring in the same amount of passion and the same amount of work on an everyday basis. And you have to be mindful of everyone's unique situation. So earlier, I think I used to get frustrated when I used to not find people coming in with the same enthusiasm on something, but now I understand because I'm also stepping back myself, a lot of times now. So again, this also is about balancing performance with your own wellness. That you can give your best, yet not burn out in the process as well. For me now, I think I don't work as much on the weekend as I used to.

I want to give time to my children, which I don't give during the weekday.

Sudha: Okay, so your leadership style has definitely been influenced by your personal circumstances and learning and that it doesn't make you a lesser leader if you are not at it 24 seven. So, you know we've already spoken a bit about, self-doubt and imposter syndrome.

But I have a question. How does it affect you? And are there occasions when you doubt yourself or your decision-making capabilities? How do you address it? And what would you say to younger colleagues, who may face this issue.

Ashima: Yeah. I mean, imposter syndrome, I think creeps in every now and then, there are days when you feel on top of the world, and you feel like there's no one better than you.

And then there are days when you feel absolutely no good. Then, obviously you have to remind yourself of your journey and how far you've come in the first place. And my husband also really encourages me a lot of times when I'm really questioning my ability. Recently I was speaking to a mentor, and I was actually telling him that my communication skills are not very good.

And he was like, why are you saying that? So, there are moments when I feel like nothing is working. But again, think of the small little things you should be grateful of, things that bring joy into your life and feel stable again, feel normal again. I've started to do things like journaling and affirmations and self-love.

Initially again, it was very awkward to just pat yourself on the back at the end of every day and be like, I'm proud of what I did, it was a very new concept, but I think gradually I'm seeing a change in myself where, I'm okay with deciding to do a limited amount of work at the start of the day.

And at the end of the day, finishing it well, and then patting myself on the back because as I said I was so much into work and trying to grow that I had a lot of doubts all the time.

So I connected with a therapist also a couple of years back. And she told me that, Ashima, you're not being kind to yourself, and I couldn't believe it because I used to think I love myself so much. I spend so much on my clothes and my makeup, and I do everything for myself. But only to realize later that being kind to yourself means that you don't beat yourself up every time you make a mistake. And I wouldn't say I'm completely on the other side now, but if earlier it took me five days to forgive myself for something, now it might take two, so I'm still working on it.

I think it also has something to do with Asian parenting or maybe Indian parenting where you know, parents are very comfortable sometimes criticizing you, but they are not very vocal in appreciating you.

In my case also, my father, I think he had this feeling that if he praises me too much, even when I'm doing well academically, that will somehow make me very complacent and I'll stop delivering, I'll derail myself on the progress.

I'll just become overconfident. That's not really the case. We understand now.

Sudha: Yeah. I think in Indian culture, we do have this thing where we tend not to praise children. It's, we love you, you're expected to know that we love you, but yeah, you're not getting any praise for anything.

And I think we are to be excessively humble. If you've done things, that's great for you, but please no need to like tom tom about it or talk about it or even discuss it even within the family. It's like no big deal that you did it.

Ashima: Yeah. And even proverbs like empty vessels make more sound, make you feel like it's very blasphemous to even appreciate yourself. I recently attended a Google workshop called I'm Remarkable where they asked you to speak out in a full room of people. Why do you think you are proud of yourself? And there were a lot of people who could say that very openly, but I struggled because I was like, how can I? Praise myself like that. I'm not used to that.

Sudha: Yeah. How can I praise myself for doing well at work and surviving and doing this and doing that?

Ashima: Yeah. I'm supposed to do it anyway.

Yeah.

Sudha: What would your advice be to younger colleagues on how to address it? Some of your learnings.

Ashima: I think it's a personal journey in some way. Look into your childhood or all the traumas that you've had I do feel that therapy really helps you delve into your past, see what was happening and make corrective steps. I think self-love needs to be prioritized for sure. Standing up for yourself and believing in yourself is something that you have to sometimes practice and then it starts to come naturally to you.

Sudha: You say it enough of times and you start believing it.

So Ashima, how important do you believe is organisational culture to ensuring that women can progress to leadership positions or tribal leadership positions?

Ashima: I think absolutely crucial. When I mentioned to you earlier that I wasn't growing while working in India for a long time, it had something to do with the steel industry which is primarily male dominated and you know, the patriarchal elements.

I remember visiting a steel plant in Chhattisgarh once, and I literally had to walk a considerable distance to find a female toilet. Of course things are changing now, there are women on the shop floor, but still, I think much more needs to be done. So as a confident young woman in the corporate office that time, I struggled to understand how I could really progress to the top, what could I really do? I was really feeling very stagnated and I knew Singapore will really offer me that opportunity because when I work here, I don't see any difference between how a man is treated versus how a woman is treated. There's absolutely no difference because everyone works here. You sometimes need dual incomes because it's the most expensive city in the world also. But what I feel is that essentially it cannot be a single person's problem, if you want to grow professionally as a woman you need that entire ecosystem, that can foster inclusivity that can really empower women, your diverse perspective is valued to some extent.

And by that ecosystem, it can't be just the company. It's the whole societal setup. I think we were talking earlier about women's participation in the labor force in India and we actually co-wrote a piece from my organisation recently,

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Show notes

Throughout history, there have been genuine supporters and sceptics of equity and inclusion. We can all see how the current political climate in the US has deepened the divide fuelling anti-ESG/DEIB rhetoric, leading many organizations, including prominent ones like Target, Meta, Amazon, McDonald’s, Ford, Harley Davidson etc. to reduce or cease their initiatives. However, there is room for cautious optimism considering that some of the world largest organisations continue to be committed including Patagonia, Costco, JP Morgan Chase, Microsoft, Netflix, Apple, Eli Lilly, Amazon, Pfizer, Salesforce, Google, P&G, Goldman Sachs.

But, for a lot of people, like Gagandeep Bhullar, Founder of Superhuman Race, a data platform that measures good, it is business as usual. She does not perceive a decline in commitment or interest from US companies. In the 128th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast Gagandeep Bhullar, joined me to discuss the pressing need for measuring and scaling "good" in today's society. She emphasised that traditional measures of success often overlook the value of good deeds, which do not typically yield tangible rewards in the corporate world.

In the episode Gagandeep shares her journey from a successful career in aerospace at Boeing to becoming an entrepreneur focused on sustainability. We also delved into the unique features of her technology platform, which stands out by driving actionable sustainability practices rather than just reporting. As we explored the dynamics of ESG reporting across the world, in India and the built environment, Gagandeep also highlighted the importance of authentic narratives in sustainability and how sectors like real estate are leading the way in adopting these practices.

We also discussed her belief that BRSR is on the path to becoming one of the best frameworks in the world, her exhilarating and challenging journey into entrepreneurship, and two exciting projects: a climate model to predict asset-level risk and a study on the built environment and real estate developers. Fun fact: Superman, Batman and mythology inspired the name she chose for her platform 😎😎😎

If you are interested in DEI, ESG Reporting, and Sustainability, tune in to the podcast to learn how SHR is leading the charge with technology for good. Link in comments 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good afternoon, Gagan. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Gagan: Thanks Sudha. It's lovely to be here.

Sudha: Let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Gagan: I am Gagan Bhullar, and I founded the Superhuman Race. So what I do now is that I run a data platform called Superhuman Race that measures good.

So that is essentially who I am and what I do at the moment. My background is entirely aerospace though, so I'm a math and science nerd basically.

Sudha: Wow. Okay. That's very interesting. We'll talk more about the transition later on, but tell us a bit more about Superhuman Race and how did you arrive at the name?

And secondly, what is your ambition when you set up this Superhuman Race?

Gagan: I'll start with the vision first, and the reason why I started Superhuman race. When I started Superhuman Race, I was at Boeing, and I had a dream job. So, I was having a lot of fun, but I was also a very young person. And I think I was struggling with the realities of the world that we live in. And I was hoping that, before I get to a stage where I cannot do anything anymore, can I contribute to building a better world? And that's how we started thinking about setting up Superhuman Race.

It's also very interesting that the problem statement that I identified was that good does not get measured. Because as a young person, I started thinking about what does good actually get you, and I realized that it really doesn't get you anything. It doesn't get you promotions, it doesn't get you jobs. It doesn't get you grades. It doesn't get you admissions. It doesn't even get you dates. Like for the most part, jokes are made about good people, right?

I started thinking about the fact that in our world, good is not measured. And so, it, doesn't get scaled. Because I'm a math and science nerd, I started thinking about how do we measure good. So that was where we started. The vision was to build a better world. When I started building Superhuman Race, I thought that we could do these amorphous data models that measure good, that are completely abstract.

And I believed that, maybe before I'm dead, we'll see billions of people around the world measure good on the platform. What I envisaged is that every individual, every organisation, every country is measuring good and working towards scaling good. So that's the vision that I started with.

We called it Superhuman Race because again, the space of good and many of the examples that I gave you, I think that, especially as young people, it's easy to get disillusioned. So it's easy to see that the narrative is around children dying and there'd be no water left and the planet sort of, not being able to accept any more human beings and natural disasters.

I started thinking about bringing joy to the space of good and that's where Superhuman Race as a name was born. Because I started thinking, what is the closest analogy to someone who does good to protect people or to protect the planet, but is fun, right? So I started thinking about Batman, Superman, Hanuman that comes from mythology in India and that was where we thought that we should be Superhuman Race so that we become the sidekick that makes the human race, the superhuman race.

Sudha: That's incredibly interesting. You mentioned good does not get you anything. You don't get rewarded for it interestingly, I heard this from the head of sustainability on what is the upside to doing sustainability, and he said, you know what, actually there's no upside, but if you look at the downside, there are too many of them, for us not to be conscious of.

And the second thing that you mentioned, which is very interesting, and contradictory you were thinking of something concretely abstract, which I think comes from your background. So how is your platform Superhuman Race different from other existing technology platforms for ESG due diligence?

Because there are a plethora of them that are continuously being launched and bandied about for different things.

Gagan: So that's actually a very good question, Sudha. What the Superhuman Race does differently at the onset is that it is truly an abstract platform. So, the platform has AI and machine learning models for nearly all the industries.

And because we align with SASB for the most part, I'm able to confidently say that 77 plus industries that are covered by SASB, they are also mapped to our platform. Why this is important is because I think a lot of people set out to solve the problem of sustainability. So, we set out to solve the problem of measuring good, but a lot of people set out to solve the sustainability problem from the point of view of reporting, which is not what our platform does. Our platform is essentially an action platform, so there is automated reporting and there's better automated reporting than most platforms in the world because it's fully automated, but that's not what we set out to do.

Right at the onset, the fact that it's an industry agnostic platform, and when I say industry agnostic, it's to the extent that we have deeply funded competitors that are, let's say, working in a single domain like Real estate. And they will have 25 million square feet of real estate on their platform, and we have 0. 5 billion square feet of real estate and real estate is one of the 77 industries on our platform. To that extent, we've built the abstraction to be powerful. And the second is that we don't focus on reporting, we focus on action.

So, the platform comes together to generate action from, actually, our advisor Ashok Pamidi says this, but I'm going to repeat and I'm going to steal what he says, "from the shop floor to the top floor". So, the person on the shop floor has different motivations, and you know almost a different style of working and expectations from the person in the boardroom or on the top floor. So how do we build a platform that drives action across the spectrum of people and organisations to scale sustainability?

Sudha: That is again, interesting more often than not, these platforms become a way for organisations to say that they're doing sustainability. So by, putting in data they are trying to show that they do sustainability rather than it being embedded in their business purpose or in the operation.

Moving on from Superhuman Race to India and the industry. What are the drivers for adoption of ESG reporting in India? Are the trends different from the rest of the world? Where are we sort of on the maturity curve?

Gagan: So this is actually again a very good question. I think that at least the driver that I have seen to be the most common driver for adopting technology for sustainability from our point of view is investors asking for data driven disclosures.

So I would say that 100%, not 99, not 95, not 90%, 100% of the clients that we work with today were either trying to access capital, reduce the cost of capital, or just continue to engage with their investors. So that was the single most important motivation that brought most of our clients to us. And I have never yet met a sustainability professional who's trying to acquire a platform that is motivated by either regulation or investors till date. Having said that, I think that in terms of the level of maturity in India in particular, there's a book that Amartya Sen wrote that I read when I was a younger person, ‘The argumentative Indian’, and I think that in order to be argumentative, you have to analyse and explore and debate.

And I see that, across India sustainability professionals and I think that has given them an edge in terms of being able to learn very fast. So, a lot of the Indian sustainability professionals that I have the good fortune of working with today, I've seen that they are able to actually spotlight business successes that are a result of sustainability investments, which is something that one doesn't see commonly, actually, like even you shared the example of the sustainability quote that you mentioned.

So that is exciting, I see that in India, once people are getting it, they are actually trying to not just invest in sustainability, but they are also able to spotlight how those investments are driving better business.

Sudha: At the macro level there are so many anecdotal stories about how companies are struggling to report or that the quality of reporting is not great. How has been your experience? From the conversations I've been having I see that sometimes there is a head of sustainability and suddenly that person is supposed to be in charge, but then the functional heads and the leaders don't necessarily report and that person doesn't have the authority. What are you seeing? Is it seamless for a lot of organisations or some of them, what is your experience?

Gagan: I think a couple of things on this. One is that sustainability requirements and reporting have become onerous over the years. And I don't want to comment on whether it's fair or unfair that they are as onerous as they are.

It's just the fact of the matter that if you have to submit a CSRD report, it's going to have more than a thousand KPIs on which you need to report data. If you're a complex diversified business, it could be data from different industries spread over different locations, right? I think that the requirements have definitely become onerous to the extent that the sustainability professionals and companies now need to report on the detailed KPIs that relate with their business, which could, like I said, be geographically or across industries, it could be diversified.

They also have to report on things that are outside of their business in several cases. So work that's happening with communities, materiality often captures physical risks and so on, I think that it is onerous, it's hard, and the data is distributed across organisations, sometimes across multiple organisations.

So I think it's impossible to do it without using technology. Having said that, the technology to do this has existed even half a century ago. So half a century ago, a magical tool called Microsoft Excel was born, which is able to capture data, and it's able to visualize, and it's, able to do all sorts of things.

So the question remains, why is it still a challenge And I think that's where the actual understanding of the sustainability space matters. So one is that a lot of the KPIs are very technical within their own domain, whether it is calculation of carbon emissions, whether it is calculation of pay parity, it could be LTIFR, which is like the safety parameter, you have so many different, extremely technical parameters that need to be calculated.

So that complexity doesn't give any single individual or team any confidence because you cannot be competent across so many different domains that are all technical at the same time. And I think the second part of the reason why it has been hard to do this is because in some cases, the data has never been captured by the company because, it has not mattered till date. So now suddenly that data becomes important because somebody is evaluating performance on the basis of these parameters. And so if the data does not even exist in the company till date, how do you educate stakeholders in terms of what is the data, how should it be collected? And then how do you educate the consumers, which could be board members or C suite executives, that this data matters? And how do you contextualize it against core business KPIs so that it starts informing, business decisions in meaningful ways. I think that there's a wide spectrum of difficulties, which is why any technology platforms that don't bring a core sustainability expertise with them are unable to scale no matter how good the tech is.

Sudha: So, you have certain mandatory things in the geography, like in India, if you're India based, if you're a multinational, you're already reporting on so many things. In India, there's a BRSR, I think it's at a very nascent stage of development, because from what I see and how people are reporting, the reporting is quite vague.

If you're the company, you can say you are going to be ambitious about your carbon capture or whatever journey without actually making a real commitment. What are your thoughts on that, on the BRSR?

Gagan: So I think actually the BRSR has evolved significantly in the last few years.

So I think the first few versions, which were known as the Business Responsibility Report, BRR. Very, like you said, but I think that it has come a long way now in terms of not just intensity calculations required by companies, but also intensity based on pay parity in the sense of PP, across different currencies and so on.

So I think that there's a steep rise in maturity that has happened in a very short period of time, which I think the credit goes to SEBI for this. Today the BRSR, the new format of BRSR is actually a very robust format, especially when you put BRSR core on top of it, which is probably one of the most comprehensive value chain reporting formats outside of the EU that exists in the world today I think.

In that sense, there has been an evolution. But I think that the challenge still remains that a lot of these formats are self-reporting based and there's really no peer benchmarking that is provided by the regulator themselves, right? So whether it is the EU or whether it is India or whether it is any part of the world.

What the frameworks like BGSI and such do is that they rank and stack people based on certain criteria. But what the regulations do is that they just take the disclosure. So nobody really knows because there are no benchmarks. I think that bad data does not get filtered out at all.

There are no penalties for bad data today. I do think that will also evolve, because obviously, these are just the first few years of that type of data coming into the organisation, so there's no benchmark that has existed so far. In terms of track, BRSR is probably on a fast track to become one of the best frameworks in the world today.

It has come a long way in the last few years, maybe industry segmentation is something that the government is already thinking about because one sees initiatives like CCTS being announced where they've already said that there'll be nine mother industries where there might be targets and then how does trading happen and so on.

And a lot of this is also based on math actually. So SEBI which is administering this has come up with very, very scientific ways of assigning those targets across industries and on. So I actually see this as a sunrise sector in India at the moment.

Sudha: Yeah, I mean, India definitely deserves a lot of praise. It's mandatory to report. How important is it, Gagan for businesses to have an authentic narrative on ESG reporting and sustainability? Considering, the EU green deal is coming and greenwashing is going to be penalized. We also have seen legislation in India around greenwashing, around consumer segments, et cetera. What are your thoughts on this?

Gagan: So, I think that historically companies that have even had a narrative, if they haven't had the data, it doesn't fly in the new world anymore. So, I think that the biggest opportunity that I see for any company today, regardless of whether it belongs to a hard to report sector or a consumer sector. I think the opportunity is good data. Across the spectrum, whether it is export of teas, which is like one of the oldest commodities which is being exported or it is hydrogen for power, which is one of the newest commodities, I'm seeing that especially as it relates with the EU importing...

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What role can technology play in breaking down barriers and building inclusion? Can AI be a force for good? There is sufficient research to show that assistive technology can be a game changer for people with disabilities enabling them to be more independent(self-care) and improving their participation in social interactions, education, employment etc. So, when I came across an article by Prateek Madhav on assistive technology, I jumped to the chance to invite him to be a guest on The 🐘 in the Room.

According to the World Health Organisation (WHO), a staggering 16% of the world’s population or 1in 6 of us or about 1.3 billion people experience significant disability. Under international human rights law, sometimes domestic laws countries have an obligation to address the inequities faced by persons with disabilities. Disability inclusion is an imperative to achieving the SDGs. However, disabled people face huge barriers to accessing education, livelihood opportunities and of course there are stereotypes and stigma that continues to prevail.

It was inspiring to hear about technology for good, about innovations that are enablers to inclusion and help people live more fulfilling lives. AssisTech Foundation(ATF) the non-profit founded by Prateek Madhav aims to build an ecosystem that leverages innovations by technology startups in assistive technology. Today, the foundation is the world’s fastest and largest ecosystem of assistive technology, with a network 450 innovators and startups in India and access to 1200 globally. Through the Inclusive InnovationNetwork (+N) (IIN) that he co-founded, Prateek Madhav aims to create a global ecosystem for collaboration and peer learning by partnering with entrepreneurs and investors.

The vision is for ATF to become an impact unicorn – creating scalable impact on the

lives of at least a billion people. The big takeaway for me, is that social

impact companies can be a force for good and help address some of the biggest

problems facing our communities and the world. ATF shows that is possible.

To get your daily/weekly dose of inspiration and hear more about the ATF head to the podcast. Link in the comments 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Prateek. Thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Prateek: Thank you very much for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here.

Sudha: We always start with an introduction. So please share a brief introduction with our listeners.

Prateek: Thank you. So, my name is Prateek Madhav.

I'm the co-founder and CEO of AssisTech Foundation. I grew up in North part of India, in a town called Jaipur. Out of house for 25 years. So don't know my kids probably are more Bangalore kids than Jaipur kids. I went to NIT Jaipur and then IM Calcutta to do my MBA.

I've lived in multiple countries, chose to come back to India for good reasons. The way I think of my life is that probably I'm living the second one. The first one professionally was in corporate, so I worked for 18, 20 years for corporate organisations and I loved the roles. It gives you visibility, it gives you opportunity to travel, meet different people, but what's more interesting honestly is the second life, which is where the attempt is to create more awareness about disability inclusion, create an ecosystem, which will use the technology innovation to help people with disabilities.

I'm sure we'll talk more about it. But yeah, I mean, beyond all this which I shared with you i'm a runner. Recently done a 500-kilometer cycling tour. Finished a couple of weeks back, next year aspiration to enter triathlons. So yeah, `that’s on the sights, but I'm very thankful to get these opportunities, to do different things and definitely blessed with a lot of good people around me.

But thank you again for inviting for this podcast and having this conversation.

Sudha: The thing about second innings really resonates with me. I faced barriers to career progression in the UK. And at that time, I didn't realize that this was an opportunity and a new beginning and a new start. And there was a lot of angst, but I'm so grateful now that I'm here on this journey and that I'm able to speak with people like you who inspire me every single day.

Prateek, what inspired you to start the AssisTech Foundation, and what is your vision for it?

Prateek: Sure, and thank you for asking that question. See, like I said, I started volunteering in the second life for various different disability focused organisations. In fact, my early experiences was to be a part of the organizing committee of first ever T20 World Cup Blind Cricket which we organized way back in 2012 in India, Bangalore. And we were a small non-profit sitting with an aspiration of doing a World Cup. How uncool and foolish that could be. But we did it, and I have to tell you what fun it was to really see, 10 countries, including India, playing the first ever T20 World Cup cricket for the blind.

And I don't know if you or the listeners understand how blind cricket is being played. It's played with a white ball, which makes sound. So, we did that World Cup. And in fact, I'm very happy to share that, that year India won the final beating Pakistan in it. It was a great experience for me personally and I continued volunteering for different disability focused organisations.

I was a part of the advisory of Dr. Reddy's Foundation and many other organisations. Now when I think of your question of inspiration, there's no one day or one instance. As I was spending more and more time along with my corporate roles in disability, I realized that number one, we were looking at challenges of different sort. Now, all of us know that we are talking about 1. 4 billion people with disabilities in the world, which makes us one in six or one in seven of us have, some or other kind of disability.

In India, somewhere around 70 to 80 million people with disabilities. So, we're talking about enormous challenge. And while we think about this large number, I looked around to see who was trying to solve the problems of people with disabilities to help them learn better, to help them get into employment While there were very, amazing organisations around me. One observation was they were using very 14th centuryish solutions. While our life was getting transformed through tech, we were getting access to online digital content faster, better, easier ways to travel, order food all that cool stuff.

People with disabilities were not given that opportunity. So that's number one. Second unlike a lot of us believed in, they were happy people and I have to tell you I have so many friends with disabilities. They are full of joy, full of aspiration. They may or may not have resources like you and I, but unlike my corporate employees who had everything but complained. People with disabilities live with a lot of hope very confident YouTube. And third, because my day job was to build technology, infrastructure, technology platforms I started realizing the same phenomenal tech can also be used to help people with disabilities learn, get employed, or live a very independent life. So, my curiosity was to see how I can use my skills, connect. knowledge experiences to help this section of society, which has been ignored is where the seeds started.

In those years, I started working with a lot of technology entrepreneurs and they would come to me. I took a sabbatical from Accenture to be full time CEO of a large nonprofit in India.

And a lot of technology innovators will come to me with their innovations. And I saw an opportunity in helping them. And if we had created a platform to help them, they will in turn help so many people with disabilities where the thought and the journey started, but I'll take a pause, if you have any follow up questions, but I'm happy to talk more about ATF and the vision.

Sudha: No, I think it's amazing because, yeah, we always think that everyone has an aha moment where you suddenly in one moment decide. But I think there is always a series of things and experiences that inspire us. Rather than just one thing for most of us.

Please, I'd love to hear more about the vision.

Prateek: So the journey started where I started sitting in this nonprofit and beyond when my sabbatical also ended. Imagine, a couple of guys coming to you and saying Prateek, we have built this app which will help blind people move independently, in an indoor and outdoor environment. And I would look at them, like, who are you?

And as I explored more, in this case, they were two individuals who resigned from their very well paying job from the corporate organisation and built this tech for six months, sitting in their flat in Bangalore. And they built a very credible tech. They were passionate. I said, okay, wait, hold on. And I called my friend Chandru who was 100 percent blind. I said, Chandru, can you please test it? And, he doesn't know who's sitting with me and he goes around and comes back and said, sir, it doesn't work.

So now, if you look at this more closely today you will see that tech founders had great passion, when you double click and explore more why they did all that what they did is because they realized that a friend of theirs got blind and they wanted to do something about it, but they never involved a wider set of users. So they built phenomenal tech, which was of no use.

I was meeting some of these xxxxxx when I said, what can I do to help them? And we do what we can do in our, area sphere of influence where they don't connect them with this different organisation. But then the idea started growing to see what if we create a platform. What if we create an ecosystem? What if we create an organisation which will help hundreds of these innovators and entrepreneurs grow? Helping one person is great, I think we all, in our individual capacities do that job day in day out. But idea is to create this ecosystem, because if we are able to help hundreds of these innovators, who are building assistive technology solutions for people with disabilities and elders, then in turn, what if they help a hundred thousand people? Imagine the kind of ripple effect. Imagine the principle of non-linearity. Imagine force multiplication starts to kick in.

Hence, we will be able to create that kind of, impact.

Having that thought and belief, we founded ATF, AssisTech Foundation in 2018/19, but I'm really happy to also share with you now, what we started with 20/25 Innovators is an ecosystem which is world's fastest and the largest ecosystem of assistive technology. Now we have a network of 450 such innovators and startups in the country.

We are global alliance, you have access to 1, 200 such innovation, and you're very, very excited that what model, which we initially thought should start kicking in is not scaling very well as well.

Sudha: Wow. That's amazing, it's not always easy to create this ecosystem. People say that India doesn't have enough of people who innovate, there is not enough of talent, failure of the technology. In spite of all the good intention behind it, if you are not inclusive at the design stage, including those who need to use it and keeping in mind the diverse needs even of that group, ultimately the product is likely to fail. So, it sounds like an amazing and very interesting journey. I'm sure you have a lot of stories. Prateek, you also founded the ‘Inclusive Innovation Network.’ Is it aligned to the ATF and what is the purpose of this network?

Prateek: So fundamental beliefs Sudha is technology is beyond boundaries. We have seen that when we have worked in an industry.

Another brilliant thing about technology is that technology doesn't discriminate while people do. So when we started to think about putting together ATF, which is a section 9 non-profit organisation, we also said let's also see what's happening around the world. We spoke to a lot of people in Australia, New Zealand. Israel was doing amazing in terms of tech innovation and assistive technology, a lot of folks in the US Europe as well. And we started to realize that the task of creating an ecosystem in India was important, but we were looking at an opportunity of creating a global ecosystem because for various different reasons, a lot of organisations working in different countries, the whole ecosystem was also fragmented, but they were phenomenal organisation, nonprofits, innovators, whom we were speaking to beyond India. And we started realizing that if we do not expand and create this ecosystem and think of a design of this ecosystem as a global design, I think will undermine the whole opportunity here.

And hence we co-founded this network called ‘Inclusive Innovation Network’ with six other countries. So, ATF India from India, Remarkable, who's a part of the largest cerebral palsy alliance in Australia, New Zealand. Kenya has a very interesting geography we have a very good friend and probably one of the best disability leaders in the whole South Africa called Bernard and we have Canada, there's some people in Hong Kong, China. What we started was, a few years back is now taking an amazing global shape because we have at least seven to eight countries joining us next year. Now, through this network, like I said earlier, you already have access to at least 1, 200 innovators and startup.

And I'll go back to the point which I was making that technology is beyond boundary. So, imagine a startup who's building solution for helping with social skills and communication to autistic kids. Is also talking to a similar tech startup who are trying to solve same or similar challenge in Australia. Look at the collaboration, look at the peer learning. Look at the possibility of they joining forces, collaborating, sometimes synergizing in terms of resources. They're investing in building this tech and then launching a global product. Imagine investors that's in many ecosystem, although we have tried building in India, but awareness in Western countries about investment in assistive technology is far better.

And hence we are talking to several investment houses, family houses as well, who are interested in investing innovations in assistive technology. So, I think that really is the purpose of plus and to create a global innovation ecosystem by partnering with different entrepreneurs and investors, very excited because we have seen that model working very well.

But obviously more needs to be done as we go forward.

Sudha: I think it's amazing that from now six to you have another same number or greater number wanting to join. That's brilliant. Prateek, so we all know the challenges of disabled people in India and they are the invisibles. I call them the invisibles because, most parents, society, I think for whatever reason, they try to hide those children or try to hide the disability, if it is possible.

How does ATF help disabled people take charge of their lives, I think if parents knew or if even their, support network, were aware of the things that technology can enable them to do that would be brilliant.

Prateek: You're right when we think about disability as a section of society, we are not just talking about the visible disability. So, if somebody is on wheelchair using crutches or a person's vision impairment, there's a large section of society like you rightly said are invisible disabilities, learning disabilities, neurodiversity, neurodivergent kids. And you're also right that in our experience a lot of time people with disability themselves or their parents do not like to really come out in the society. And I think there are good reasons for that because construct of our society is that we are not giving, equal opportunity to people with disabilities.

In fact, some of the organisations I have seen, if they divulge that there is a disability, they could marginalize, they don't get that equal opportunity. And hence, a lot of time, it's a question of acknowledgement, because of emotional reasons, acceptance. And hence, if you do not accept and acknowledge, you would never seek out solutions, you will never seek out help in the wider society because of marginalisation and stuff like that. My point of view, and I want to share with you and the listeners that the world has changed. We have seen so many kids with disabilities, with smarter tech today, they are not just excelling in their education, but they are growing with so much of confidence that they are entering into employment. One of the things which you would know that parents will always worry about what will happen to my son or daughter with disability after me. What after me is always a thought.

And I'm here to give them strength, I'm here to give them a thought which is very optimistic that if we open up, if we invest in training them on various stuff, various skills, I have no doubt that they will be able to take care of themselves and be independent. We have seen so many people with disabilities now entering workforce. The world has changed, not just because the newer technology is there to help, the world it's changed because there's a greater awareness about people with disabilities and their capabilities.

I will give you an example of a friend of mine, her name is Al and she was a very senior leader in one of the corporate organisation and then she resigned and she started a non-profit. She's a person...

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Show Notes:

There are some brilliant leaders doing amazing work to promote equity & inclusion in the UK. Would you agree? There are not enough superlatives to describe the hard work and commitment of these advocates.

Christina Brooks, Founder and CEO Ruebik is one such leader. Along with her day job she is a trustee for an alternative provision school in Tottenham, a Trustee for pioneering Social Communications Centre for Autism. She also mentors incarcerated young people and advises many black owned social startups.

So, I was thrilled to have @Christina Brooks as a guest on the 126th episode of The 🐘in the Room podcast to talk about all things equity and inclusion. In this freewheeling conversation we spoke about her journey from global talent lead at Rolls Royce to starting Ruebik an inclusion first talent attraction agency and DEI consultancy. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Learnings from the corporate world that she brought to her entrepreneurial journey

👉🏾 Being purpose led, and B-Corp certified

👉🏾 Lived experiences, and her intersectional identities that led to her being othered

👉🏾 Her thoughts on Industry trends indicating a slowdown and step back in investment and commitment of DEIB/EDIB initiatives

👉🏾 How culture and measurement contribute to creating an impactful recruitment and hiring process

👉🏾 Conscious/Inclusive leadership

👉🏾 Future of work – the impact of AI

We also spoke about her podcast Elevated Conversations with Tacita Small and Monique Carayol, Zoom Fenty, even Beyonce, her beliefs, motivations and having a long view of change………..

To learn more head to the podcast (link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Christina. It's such a pleasure to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Christina: It's an absolute honour to be here Sudha. Thank you for the invitation.

Sudha: Brilliant. let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do. Also, tell us why did you decide to become an entrepreneur?

Christina: Yeah, a really good question. Why did I decide to become an entrepreneur because it was not by design, I actually fell into it. So, if I give you a little bit about my background, I've got almost 20 years executive search experience. So that's really my bread and butter. So really thinking about how organisations should attract and retain exec leaders.

And prior to setting up Ruebik, I worked for Rolls Royce as a global talent acquisition lead. So, my team were in Derby, and I was based down here in London, and it was a really wonderful experience. And my mandate at the time was to increase gender representation, and we started to look at other underrepresented strands as well. But I think the real light bulb moment for me, Sudha, was when I was often looking for suppliers and other executive recruitment firms to help us really think about diversity.

They often sounded and looked like the business that we were trying to change and innovate in. And so really for me, I built the kind of business that I wanted to work with. So Ruebik, as it stands, it's an extension of a talent acquisition function. And so, we really partner closely with organisations who are trying to move the dial beyond gender. We're looking at race, we're looking at social mobility, we're looking at, fringe communities that typically sit on the periphery. And so that's what we do day in and day out.

Sudha: Wow, that's amazing. I think nothing better than a purpose led business because that's what you are. What were the learnings you brought from your corporate experience that have helped you navigate this journey to building a B Corp certified talent agency?

You are B Corp certified, congratulations.

Christina: Yeah, I'm happy to display it in the back.

Sudha: How important was it to have focus and purpose when you were setting this up?

Christina: It was intrinsically linked. It was never an afterthought and so when people say when did you decide to go to B Corp? B Corp came to me in a strange way.

Because of how I had built and set up the business I was introduced to a fantastic organisation called Cyd Connects. And it's run by two incredibly powerful women, and they take organisations through the B Corp process. So, if you ever need help and support with this, CydConnects, and I'd be happy to connect.

When I met with the co-founders and I explained how Ruebik was built, that we look at the ecosystem. As much as I'm passionate about changing executive diverse leadership within organisations, so really those decision making roles, I also look at fringe communities as I've already referenced.

I'm a trustee at a pupil referral unit, we are the academy that one, young children have already been expelled from school and it's typically because they have emotional, behavioural, psychological challenges that don't fit into that neurotypical peg. They come to our academy, and beyond that, we then, as a business, go into prisons and work with young men who are currently incarcerated.

I've been to Thameside, I've been to Pentonville, I've been to Brixton Prison and we work with the young men there to help reframe some of the activities, that really made them successful in an illegal way. How can we transfer that into a legal sustainable work that would help empower them and their families.

Because of this ecosystem that I've built that looks not only at executive leaders but wider society and community, it just felt right to have that B Corp certification and status to share with our clients, share with our candidates that this is something that is part of our DNA as a business.

Sudha: You haven't taken the easy path, because there are lots of people who've jumped onto the bandwagon post-COVID or pre-COVID because they saw an opportunity, a business opportunity.

Clearly you are deeply embedded in trying to bring about change as you said in communities that are at the periphery and are not likely to find as much support.

Christina: That's right.

It's so important for me, Sudha, because I often describe myself as the product of the problem that we're trying to solve. I left school at 15. I didn't do A levels. I did not go on to university at that time. I was brought up in a single parent family. My mom had four kids and in an incredibly religious environment. What that means, I was actually raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, so what that means to me is that I have a deep understanding and respect for other people's faith.

And while it is no longer my faith, but if you think of all of the complexities of also growing up outside of London, it was in Gloucester, it just meant that I was different in so many different ways. I was othered because of the colour of my skin, othered because our dad didn't live at home with us in that traditional family setting, othered because I was a Jehovah's Witness, there were so many things that made me so different.

And then it was a bit of an awakening to move from Gloucester to Tottenham, which is a very deprived inner city borough of London that for anybody who doesn't know it, but it's where the riots took place in 2011 when Mark Duggan was shot and killed by the police. That, that was literally the bottom of my high road.

And I just have a different perspective in terms of people growing up in lots of different social communities and what access allows and what the lack of access excludes you from. And I think that this is where this fight comes from is really understanding how very quickly and easily you can be excluded.

When I would go to job interviews, the minute I said I lived in Tottenham, no callbacks, I would never get a callback. So, I started creeping up the Victoria line. And I was like, I live in Finsbury Park, maybe we'll call you back. I live in Highbury and Islington. And then it was the callbacks because I had to be savvy. I didn't want to lie about where I lived and I wasn't ashamed. It just meant that people perceived me differently when I said, I come from Tottenham.

Sudha: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not what we're doing, it's how others are willing to engage with you because of the differences. Post COVID, you know, DEI gained a lot of traction and momentum, but research in the past couple of years has shown that the efforts are now stalling.

And I have two questions here, do you agree or disagree with the research findings? And if you agree, what are the reasons for this progress stalling?

Christina: I think that's a big question. In 2020, there was a groundswell that nobody could ignore. Up until that point in the UK, there were a handful of things that it was impolite to talk about.

You were actively dissuaded from having conversations about politics, religion, money, and race. They're your four things, you wouldn't talk about it around the dinner table or with friends because it's like come on, we're British, be conservative, polite. In America, the conversation was so much more advanced because slavery happened on their land, they could see it there.

Here in the UK, it's always been so removed, and we called it business.

Sudha: Yeah.

Christina: So for that reason, conversations about equal opportunities, diversity and inclusion, now it's called ED& I, now E D I and Belonging. It changes its name, we have new acronyms, but the conversation stays the same. We would have to really have a radical shift in our community and in society to see the change that is needed, because there is something inherent in all of our communities, that it feels like we give away something when we are bringing somebody in.

And that's just a tribal feel, and it's something inherently biological, that if you saw something that looked different to you, that sounded different to you, it was a threat to your tribe. That is how we are built for survival. And so that seeps into organisation, it seeps into culture, it seeps into us being able to other, communities and people that are different to us because it's our reptilian mind, we do it without thinking. Of course it slowed down after 2020 because at that groundswell, at that time, I think that it was the first time in history that the entire world had a common enemy outside of itself, so we were all scared of COVID. We all looked at each other, and it didn't matter how much money you made, it didn't matter if you're a celebrity, if you're homeless and on the street, we all had a single enemy.

And in that moment, we all saw the humanity in each other. When you see somebody's life taken away by an institution, the police, you are stopped in your tracks. And we were already traumatized by what was happening. It really catalysed the conversation and shifted people into action. And of course, that has slowed down because the world got back up on its feet. There is less empathy now than there was four years ago, it was four years ago now. And we've gone back to old ways of working. So, I do agree with the research, which does make me sad.

Sudha: And does politics also have something to contribute to it? Because we saw the last government, take some steps or, even say that there were no problems with diversity or bias is not something that they wanted to include in training. I think the political class does have some contribution to make to this entire stalling business.

Christina: Of course, I think that it's the cascade down and we see it. If I think about our counterparts in the U S as I say, this is a conversation that has been alive for them for hundreds of years because of what took place on their soil, for us, it's relatively newer.

I think post Windrush and how we saw a lot of communities treated thereafter, both Black, Asian, all the other communities that have happened 60s onwards we see real cultural weaponisation around this subject matter from governments. Both across the sea in the US and here in our own backyard.

And I feel like what the political climate is, is if people look like us and sound like us and say, actually immigration is not the way to go or there's not a problem here, nothing to see here, it's really dangerous. It's adangerous rhetoric, and damaging because it's from our people.

Sudha: Absolutely agree with you. Moving on from there, your clients, for example, are they asking for your expertise in building inclusive recruitment and more inclusive hiring processes? Or are they just interested in getting past the hiring requirements, whatever is the most immediate need?

Christina: Yeah. Sudha, that's a really brilliant question because I do think that there are a lot of organisations out there who are very metric driven and just want to tick those boxes and say, look, we've done it, we've got the percentage of women, black, disability and great is this is our scorecard.

Luckily, as a founder of my own business, it means that I'm willing to back myself and leave money on the table. If I do not think that organisation is doing it for the greater good of community and customer, that's what this has to be about. It has to be inclusive for all, not because you've got metrics to hit.

A number of our organisations and clients that we work with, are really trying to do things in a different way, and if we even just take one facet of the whole employee life cycle, which is a recruitment piece, the attraction, we have not disrupted the way that interviews are conducted for the past 40 years.

It's the same. It's insane. And we're working in an environment where there are four different generations. One client that I have has employees at 16 years old all the way up to 82. Imagine! If you think about the intergenerational context of that, and what people are demanding now from organisations, then we were, say, two, four, five years ago, it's completely different. So inclusive recruitment has to be a central part of how to engage different communities in a way that you have never done before.

Sudha: That's so true. we hear so much statistics about, the different generations in the workplace for the first time, and a lot of organisations are ill-prepared to communicate and engage with them.

How important, Christina, is measurement for keeping track of an organisation's DEI Priorities, when your clients, do they talk about measuring, the impact? And are there, two or three steps to get started on the journey?

Christina: Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that, where I spoke to clients previously who were just looking at metrics, there is absolutely a need, because what isn't measured isn't done. We do need the data, of course we need the data, but it can't be the be all and end all of this conversation. And I think that's where some people get stuck with data paralysis.

It's like, well, we know, and this is the amount of people that we need to increase by it's like, but what's the thing feeling of your organisation? What is the culture saying? And the best definition I've heard of culture is the worst behaviours tolerated in an organisation. That is your culture.

So how is that being measured?

And to your point, what are the steps that you take to get a better understanding of that, it's deep listening. It has to be objective. Of course, there is some merit and benefit to bold surveys and internal, kind of, you know, let's take a sweep and let's ask. But there will always be that inherent bias or fear that actually your boss might see it or you might be identifiable because you've really spoken up and shared your honest thoughts, but somehow HR might map it back to you.

So my advice is, even if it's not through a Ruebik, but find a partner that you truly trust and get that external objective feedback loop. And that's the first point, is listening to the business, listening to your organisation, because quickly after that, you can then map a pathway to making things better to organisational tweaks. But deep listening is number one.

Sudha: Yeah, I guess unless you listen, you'll never know the behaviours that need to change. Like you said, what is the worst behaviour that an organisation is willing to tolerate? That's an amazing definition.

Moving on, across the world, a large percentage of leaders are technocrats, you know, higher education, MBAs, they do not teach about DEI, you know, so unless leaders have a personal interest, they are not going to make, culture a priority for them.

What can be done to help these leaders unlearn behaviours and be more conscious and inclusive? Because I don't think there is an option for them now to not understand this entire landscape.

Christina: I think that this is one of the most underrated and undervalued points that we are trying to ratify right now across industry.

That question that you've asked right there should be the question of every CEO running an organisation right now in the market, is how do I get my leaders to understand how important this is. Up until this point, if we think about historically, how you hire, how you promote, how you retain, it's all been based on exclusion.

And it's all been based on the network and the network that you foster, which doesn't exclude, that doesn't include others. And you've been rewarded for that kind of behaviour. The whole thing has flipped on its head. Unless we're asking these much bigger questions, like how can we be consciously...

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Shownotes:

Reams have been written recently about SDGs, climate change, just transition…… what does it mean in practice? India's National Action Plan on Climate Change emphasises the need for inclusive and sustainable development to ensure it does not fail millions on the margins or without a voice.

It would not be presumptuous to say that most people in world are aware of India’s demographic dividend. At 21% or 253 million, India is also home to the largest adolescent population in the world of which 120 million are girls. For a just transition and for India to reap the benefits of the demographic dividend by unlocking the potential of its youth, it is crucial that they are empowered with knowledge and skills to combat social and economic exclusion.

A majority of India’s adolescent girls are on the margins and face numerous challenges including lack of access to education, domestic work, early marriage and pregnancy and financial dependency. There are a myriad of government initiatives and schemes aimed at keeping this group in education in urban and rural area, but long lasting change will be impossible without addressing the deep rooted cultural norms, expectations and stereotypes.

This is where organisations like VOICE4Girls, step in, they create safe spaces for girls to have critical conversations around their physical and mental health; recognising, preventing and reporting violence and a space where they can dream. This social enterprise led by Anusha Bharadwaj, has impacted over 3,00,000 girls and boys through their work across 12 different Indian states.

In the 125th episode of The 🐘in the Room podcast we spoke about Anusha’s childhood, how it influenced her to step into the social sector, her ambition for Voice4Girls, breaking the cycle of exclusion, deprivation for young girls and boys, the challenges of being a founder. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 SoCh for social change an initiative aimed at building leadership capabilities of young social changemakers,

👉🏾 Social entrepreneurship as a powerful force for transforming communities and nations, being hubs of innovation

👉🏾 Context, feminism and feminist leadership

👉🏾 Failures, highlights and role models girls and boys can identify with

And much more in this freewheeling and inspiring conversation.

Head to the podcast to know more about the incredible work being done by Ashoka Fellow, Anusha Bharadwaj and Voice4Girls 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Anusha. Wonderful to have you on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Anusha: Hi Sudha, lovely to be here.

Sudha: Let's get started with a quick introduction. Tell us a bit about your childhood, your education, what sort of influences did you have? I'm curious to understand how and why you decided to work in the social sector.

Anusha: Every time somebody asks me this question, some new parts about my family emerges and today what really came up is that I grew up in a South Indian family where education was super important Sudha. In fact, both my great grandfathers were very well educated, one was a medical officer, the other was a maths professor. And I've heard that, even during those times, this is still very British ruled India both my grandmothers, my maternal and my paternal grandmother, both are high school graduates.

Again, something very unusual for girls during those times. Looking closely, I realized that education for girls was a desirable thing for women in my family, because they should get a good marital match, right? Because boys were all very well educated. So, the end goal was getting her married and for that education that will get her married.

And that's the background of my family and my childhood was peppered with the constant efforts to prove that I'm better than the boys at home. In fact, I remembered as I was preparing for this question, that my father used to say very fondly that me as a daughter was a boy trapped in a girl's body because I had all the spirit of the boy is what he said and at that time I didn't understand. I would just be so proud of that. But realizing that I'd set a poor benchmark, this is always like, I also don't want to cry, I as a girl, because I was the only girl amongst my cousins and my own brother. So, there was a lot of being like a boy and better like a boy, I studied engineering, played cricket.

I think it was only when I was pursuing my engineering that I realized that my mind heart was not in it. Though the immediate family was super patriarchal, my parents were very supportive of all my choices.

When I finished my degree, I said, this is the certificate and now I want to, change my career because I'd already started volunteering for social organisations. I was working with a foundation, a CSR that was working with children and teenagers and I was like, this is the path I want to go. So that was my first steps in the social impact sector in 2002 and I've not looked back since. I continued working in that organisation, I did a rural management degree from the Institute of Rural Management in Anand. Worked in, civil society organisations. I worked for the government and UNICEF for a while and then of course my own social entrepreneurship journey with Voice4Girls. I found my own voice and purpose through the work. But yeah, I've never looked back since then and how much of my childhood and all those stereotypes is what, my organisation and my life's work has been in ensuring that girls just realize that they have so much in themselves that there's no competition.

Sudha: Yeah, they don't really have to be like boys, but it's so good to understand how you found your purpose, your calling, so to speak, and how you went into the social sector. I've read so much about, Voice for Girls and the wonderful work that you do. Tell us about its genesis and how you came to this and probably the influences that you've spoken about in your childhood in your own experiences were the stepping stone to getting on this, social impact entrepreneurship.

Anusha: Though 2002 I started working in the sector, I worked mostly with children and young people. And even then I felt gender was too much for me to unpack I felt like a lot of my childhood and my upbringing would inhibit and I felt that I couldn't be professional enough. I think again, these are some of the stereotypes that I carried that doing work in gender would make me very emotional.

Only later I realized it made me more resilient and strong. But it took me about a decade in the social impact sector working with children that I realized I love working with girls Sudha. Just give them a small platform and they'll shatter it, and they'll take charge of their lives.

And that sort of inspired me and that's what I felt that through them, I started realizing how much potential it is to work with girls and how crucial it would be at a very formative age to give them that platform and that safe space. But I think the true calling came when I was doing some field work, I was in an Anganwadi where they were doing a baby shower.

So, they were telling young to be mothers and their mothers in law healthy nutrition for pregnant women and lactating women. When I saw a very young girl, I felt she was not more than 13 and 14, heavily pregnant, completely listless, not answering, it seemed like almost the whole life's burden is in her womb. And I felt very angry that this shouldn't be happening to girls, but I was also angry that nobody else was angry. Like I had department officials, there were other civil society organisation members and police was there and everybody, like even parents and family, they weren't angry at that situation, right?

And it left me very angry to say this shouldn't happen and what can I do to see as many girls not getting trapped in that. So that's really the genesis of ‘Voice for Girls’ because we believe that creating a gender transformative safe space is very crucial in the life of adolescent girls.

Because, today she's a girl, she gets a period, she's almost a woman and then the transition was so quick that the girls aren't, ready for this transition, aren't prepared for what's happening in their bodies, let alone what sociocultural expectations will fall on them. So helping girls navigate that phase in life through Voices’ work was the vision in which we set it up.

And by creating these gender transformative safe spaces for marginalized adolescents, and we do it mostly in government funded schools, residential schools, in colleges, what we're doing is help girls understand what's happening in their bodies, how to navigate this crucial phase and prepare for what life is ahead of them.

And since 2012, we've been doing this work and we worked in several geographies, not just in Telangana, but currently our work is in Telangana, Andhra and Karnataka. Our work has impacted the lives of close to 270000 girls, women and boys.

Sudha: That's so amazing.

And like what you say is something that we've seen in the past, I think there are multiple India's in India, and we tend to ignore the fact that this continues to happen and there needs to be a specific effort trying to change and give a platform to young girls.

So according to you, Anusha, what needs to be done to reap the benefits of this demographic dividend, considering that India has the largest adolescent population in the world? How can we break the cycle of exclusion, deprivation, violence for young girls, also boys, I'd say, and create a more equitable society?

Anusha: India is sitting at a very crucial point in our in its history. It's exciting. And I think we should be nervous at the same time. We are a demographically young country, one in every five people in India is between the ages of 10 to 19, which is adolescent age. And we're one of the fastest growing economies.

In the recently held G20, India also promised that out of six priority areas, Sudha, that women led development would be a crucial area. And my question to India would be, can we be women led in the future before being girl led today? And there is a huge need to be girl led today. India is having 120 million adolescent girls as we speak.

So strengthening that agency will be very critical to unlock the fast growing economic pace that we need to sustain to get to where we want to. However, in recent news, you've heard such horrific crimes that are happening against women and it once again highlights that mainstream education is not reaching millions of girls and even if it is reaching, it is not preparing them for life. We're still a society where there are very regressive socio cultural norms. There's very limited access to information, especially to adolescent girls. And we require urgently to have spaces where girls are able to understand what's happening, but also get skills to be able to unlock that agency and potential for themselves, right?

And I feel that spaces like Voice is really crucial for that because it is preparing girls for life. It's giving them a space to have critical conversations around their health. And when I say health, Physical and sexual reproductive health, mental health, helps them understand how to stay safe from violence because we want girls to be able to recognize violence, prevent violence and report violence where it's happening.

Understand they have rights. India has many great laws, but it's not getting implemented because girls don't know these laws exist. They have laws that can help them stay in school, prevent early marriage, keep them safe in workspaces. So, it's very critical that they realize their rights and how to access them.

And at the same time, a space where they are able to dream, right? Like I think the dream for girls are set by families and communities. And it's sort of is like what they believe girls should dream. And the dream is like two, three years, get married and then we'll see. Have a child and then we'll see, have another child, maybe if you're in laws do. So, all the decision making for her is happening by others. So how do we create a space where she realizes she can be a decision maker because she's not seeing that in the family. She's not having enough role models in the community to showcase that. So also showcasing there are role models from these communities that have been able to challenge these norms, right?

So I feel that India really needs to invest in adolescent girls and unlock that agency because we have a bright future if we do that. If we don't, we will continue to see abuse and violence. We continue to see that woman, though they're getting educated, are dropping off because they have to xxxxxxx for their families. And I think we're at a point where it's not okay.

Sudha: It's so true we have great ambitions on where we want to go as a country. But to have that growth, you need to be able to harness the potential of all of these young girls and at this point in time, we are not even harnessing the potential of women.

And so, unless there is a, dedicated focus and investment, and resources put towards this, nothing is going to change or move.

Anusha: But I want to add that India has been successful in, say, increasing the literacy amongst women, right? And girls. The female literacy is probably much better than it has been decades ago.

And there has been a huge mobilisation from governments and civil society to get here. How do we like learn from those and continue to bridge the gap. Because girls when getting to school, we build that bridge. But girls are getting educated but aren't showing up at workspaces. Something has to be done for those as well.

Like there are crucial bridges that we have to continue to build because just pushing them into education, you're still like, sitting on huge potential that you don't know how to harness. But there are examples of having mobilized this for a good purpose. So how do we also translate it to the other phases of her life?

Sudha: Yes, there exists best practice in the system somewhere. And we need to know about it and use it in other places.

So, Anusha, what would you say are the biggest challenges you face while doing this work? Because I don't know about society, I think middle class is very, blase about it. And sometimes they're very patronizing about it. But there are so many challenges on the ground in the sense that you are trying to get young women into, education, empower them. But how important is it to have that social structure around them to actually educate and get them also up to speed?

Anusha: I think there are a few that I can think of off the top of my mind. One is just keeping up the motivation of the work. Even as we are preparing thousands of girls to fight the battles, stay in school, stay in school, question patriarchy, there are millions that are dropping out and getting trapped in lives of unrealized potential, I would say.

So it's always like you're putting one piece but two things are getting undone and you have to constantly pick yourself up and keep going as a leader, as the team, as an organisation. And sometimes it's quite challenging to find that motivation because the recent crime that happened in Kolkata has upset so many of us at a personal level too. And it makes us question like, we've done decades of work, we've had girls dream and say they want to be doctors, they want to be engineers, and then when you see this. What is the example that is going to set for parents?

They're saying, what is the use of education? If this is what might as well get her married, she's safer at home, but also to recognize the homes aren't safe for many women, right? So how do we have those difficult conversations? Second is I think figuring out ways to bring boys and men into this conversation.

Voice has been working with adolescent boys and young men, and it has been one of the most challenging programs we've done because we want this conversation which is empathetic towards them, because gender is affecting them as well. They're getting boxed into these gender stereotypes of being a provider and protector for the family, even as girls are saying you're the nourisher and the nurturer of the family, right?

Like, how do we recognize they're getting boxed, but at the same time, help them understand that they have the privilege to unbox themselves and become allies for girls and women. That's a very difficult conversation. I think empowerment for girls and women is very exciting. When girls get this information, there's just so much energy in the room Sudha, that you'll just be blown away by how girls want to share this information. But in a boy's classroom though, it's very similar in terms of the format of, you know, activity based and helping them discover this. It is a lot of retrospection and reflection because boys are like, yeah, that's true, my mother works during her period, and I didn't know it was such a difficult time for her.

Or when a boy shared that, I get more money because I'm a boy from my grandmother for Diwali, when I used to feel very proud, but actually my sisters weren't getting because they're girls, it is a simple thing like this, that is a reflection on their everyday lives. But helping understand the criticality of this conversation with the boy and then other organisations also maybe to learn how to do this at scale.

It's not enough to just do it with 10 boys, 100 boys. How can we do this at a scale? Because obviously they are super important to this conversation and we're still figuring out. And the third aspect is that funding landscape is changing so rapidly, domestic funding, as well as FCRA, and if organisations like us, which have worked for, you know, TK plus, there's a lot of evidence, can become ecosystem players, can become resource hub for other organisations wanting to do this work, there isn't funding for such kind of work.

And it's very difficult to get along, to become ecosystem players and, invest in organisational development, right? People

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Show notes:

The ESG backlash is real, and it is polarising. The rhetoric around it exacerbated because of roll backs by corporates and governments on climate/energy commitments. According to a leading ESG publication, Trump’s victory in the world’s second largest democracy, is likely to result in roll backs on climate and ESG regulation in the country and retreat from the global stage. Despite all the noise against ESG - asset managers globally are expected to increase their ESG related AuM to US$33.9 trillion by 2026 (84% growth). The driver for growth for ESG activity is not altruism but value creation.

In India the world’s largest democracy there are reasons for cautious optimism, with the government introducing a slew of policy changes over the last decade, that makes it obligatory for organisations to adopt an ESG lens for sustainability reporting. Since 2022-23, the top 1000 listed companies are obliged to follow the Business Responsibility and Sustainability Reporting framework. The driver of course is India’s ambition to be a 7 trillion economy by 2030. There is lots to be done but the country is on the path.

To discuss India’s journey on ESG and Sustainability reporting I spoke with Arvind Chari and Chirag Mehta, Quantum Advisors in the 124th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast. The focus of the conversation was global and local trends and Quantum’s own approach to ESG investing. We spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 The drivers for sustainable investing

👉🏾 Responsible (patient investing) and what it means. Adding a 5th P to the 4 Ps investment management - predictability or patient capital

👉🏾 The reason for developing Quantum’s own due diligence process or integrity screening mechanism

👉🏾 How weightage on governance can drive better E and S performance for an organisation

👉🏾 Sustainable investing in the Indian context (considering India needs approx. $200 billion a year), where the country is on the sustainable investing journey

👉🏾 Public equity markets as the low hanging fruit for sustainable investing in India

👉🏾 Whether Indian companies are prepared to meet the regulatory requirements in particular BRSR

We also spoke about the ESG backlash, social license to operate, whether ESG funds perform better than funds that don’t have an ESG lens, the EHG trilemma and The 🐘 in the Room. If sustainability, sustainable investing, transparency and accountability is your thing check out Quantum’s ‘The Little White Book of Governance’.

Disclaimer: Quantum Advisors are not my client and I remain sceptical of the investment management & PE industry and their relentless pursuit of profits. However, we know how critical they are to achieving global and local climate and SDG targets. I was drawn to Quantum's mantra ‘Be good and Do good’ and intrigued by the integrity screen.

Check it out for yourself – links in the comment 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

esginvesting #esg #sustainability #impact investing #governance #Climatehange #SDGs

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good morning, Arvind and Good Afternoon, Chirag. Wonderful to have both of you on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Arvind: Sudha, it's good to have us. Your name of the podcast itself is so interesting, and there are always a lot of elephants in the room to be discussed about so great to be talking to you.

Chirag: Yeah. I echo Arvind and pleased to be here.

Sudha: So, let's get started with a quick introduction. Tell the listeners about probably who you are and what you do.

Arvind: Quantum Advisors the firm that we both work me and Chirag,it's an India based, India dedicated investment management firm. It's the oldest firm in India in that space.

Quantum was founded in 1990 by Ajit Dayal and so we've been championing the cause of investing in India, either through research and advisory or through managing on their own name for now close to 40 years, right?

Quantum specializes in thinking about long term India investing from a very sensible risk adjusted approach. And we also believe, and as you will know over the course of this talk, that we believe in be good and do good. And we've employed that not only in our investment philosophy, but the way we run the firm and the choices that we've made as a firm to be able to deal with putting the investor at the centre of everything that we do.

We have two pools of capital, one is the global investor, the global pension fund, sovereign wealth funds, university endowments, family offices, investing into India. Quantum manages and has strategies and products for that pool of capital. And then there is the Indian investor that the Indian retail or Indian high net worth investor who is investing into India and we have the mutual fund, the Quantum Mutual Fund for that.

I'm Arvind Chari. I'm the chief investment officer of Quantum Advisors, now of Q India UK, I moved to London about two years back to be able to be closer to the global investors. So, I basically fly two flags, one is to tell global investors that they are missing out by not investing in India and, more and more investors need to think about India dedicated.

And to fly the Quantum flag in terms of how Quantum can help long term investors allocated to India in a sensible risk xxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Chirag, who's here as well, Chirag Mehta is the chief investment officer of Quantum Mutual Fund, which is Quantum AMC.

Chirag, if you want to give a quick intro of yourself.

Chirag: Sure. So, I've been associated with Quantum for more than about 18 years now and, it gives us pride. Arvind joined in 2004, I joined in 2006, so we both have been here pretty tenured and have seen cycles, and we really know how the Quantum way of investing benefits investors across these cycles.

So, I am the chief investment officer at Quantum Mutual Fund as Arvind said. I do look at many funds at Quantum. including spearheading our integrity efforts. When you say integrity, the outside world knows it by various other names like sustainability, responsible investing, et cetera. So, I do spearhead that and manage a team that looks at these aspects That's a brief introduction and I managed funds across the board in terms of right from multi assets to gold to small caps to what is called in India as ESG funds. We would like to call it integrity, but it's called ESG funds in India. So that's been a snapshot of what I do.

Sudha: Awesome. So, the focus of our conversation today, as I'd mentioned earlier is responsible investing. What does it really mean for Quantum Advisors when you say responsible investing?

Arvind: Sudha, we actually do not like to use the words, sustainability, responsibility, ESG. Either they've been abused or misused or it is not exactly relevant. What we call ourselves as a measure is integrity investing. And integrity is of course a higher measure to hold onto, but also suggests that there are certain morals or certain ethical framework that you use for your investments or for running the firm, and you don't change it, you live by those standards. We think of ourselves as integrity investing as an idea and everything that we do comes about from that perspective.

I'll just give you a history of the firm, which explains how we got into this aspect of why sensible risk adjustment and integrity is essential to what we do. We started the firm in 1990 and there are two seminal partnerships that Quantum had one was between 92 to 95 with a group called Jardine Fleming which we call Quantum Jardine. That's where we learned two very important aspects of an investment management firm. One is to be independent, right? When you are an investment firm and you're independent, the only thing that matters to you is your unit holders or your investors.

If you're independent, then all you're doing is investing long term capital for your fiduciary investors, which your unit holders. The other thing that we learned from the association is what we built as a integrity screen. Subbu who joined Ajit in 1996, so Ajit and Subbu are the longest serving equity managers maybe around the world now that Charlie Munger passed away. They've had a long history and that's when they built this integrity screen, which is basically a screen to avoid bad management, no matter how large they are, no matter how big they're part of the sector, no matter how big they're part of the indices.

If they don't fit our integrity screen, we will stop, we will never invest in them, we will never put client capital into that. So that was the first learning about being independent and having this integrity screen way back in 1996. And then we learned the process of investing of long term process through an association that we had with Hansberger Global Investors.

Tom Hansberg was the originally founder of the Templeton Group, which we call Templeton Galbraith Hansberger. A lot of our investing style of proprietary long-term value came about from that association with Hansberger Global Investors. And Ajit used to work with Hansberger, and they had a mandate from Vanguard. The Vanguard International Value Fund was managed by Hansberger and Ajit was a lead manager for that product. And that's when we learned about, how do institutional investors allocate long term capital?

Why are those, you know, those four P's that you call about in investment firm people, the philosophy, the process, and the performance. And we added a P on the performance called predictability. How can you ensure that your returns or your managing of money is predictable for investors? We learned all that. From our association with Hansberger and Vanguard. And we added a fifth P to that, which is patient capital because India needs long-term capital and India needs, patient long-term capital to come and benefit from the long-term growth prospects that India has.

So the four Ps of how we have and the then we and the desire a fifth p from our investor. The way we think about allocating is when investors allocate to India, either you're global investors or you're an Indian investor allocating to equity markets or taking on risk, you're increasing your risk profile, right? You don't need to do that, but you're looking to choose a higher return or a higher opportunity and you're increasing the risk profile. And our job at Quantum is to manage that risk. And I spoke about risk not being only standard deviation and market volatility, which can be managed.

There are risks which come about through liquidity, that come about through valuations. And there are risks which are predominantly of our governance, so which companies you invest with? Who do you partner as your local partner? What kind of projects are you investing? And the various aspects of governance that goes into it can have a big impact on you as an investor.

That could be some reputation risk that you invest in a company and that company has a governance problem, it blows out and it comes on the press. Or it comes openly saying that, this big, large investor has invested in this company, and they failed all factors. So, our job as a manager is to manage those kinds of risks, market returns, xxxxxx division we can manage, but these are risks that everybody should be aware of. And we as the manager should be able to manage that risk. So that is essentially what we do across asset classes, be it public equities, in the mutual fund, we also have fixed income and through our associates, we have reinvested in private equity. In all these aspects this factor becomes a very important factor about, whom we are shaking our hands with.

And when we shake hands, do we get our five fingers back and we count that. And if we do not get our five fingers back, we avoid our investing in those firms. So that's the way we think about these entire aspects of responsibility and sustainability for us it all starts with integrity for us as a manager.

And for how we deploy client capital.

Sudha: Wow. Yeah, that's so deeply rooted, from the time that you were set up and you'll have come to this premise where you have the five P's for responsible or sustainable investing. And of course, there's an ethical framework. In the global context. Arvind, now you sit in London, what would you say are the drivers for sustainable investing?

Sudha: And are there trail blazers or peers that you look up to?

Arvind: We don't necessarily look up to any particular peer or maybe in India we don't even think that we have a peer in terms of who thinks about risk in the way we think about it.

But in terms of global, that entire aspect of sustainability depends on the asset class in the first place. In the sense that there could be a lot of public equity investors who look at governance as a factor and there are many who do that, right? We are not the only one who look at governance as a factor. There are many who think about that as a filter or a factor before committing money. The sustainability could also be depending on if you're a climate specific investor, but your goal is say - decarbonization, or your goal is say on the climate aspect so there are firms who bracket themselves as sustainable or responsible from that perspective.

There are a few impact, the impact could be again, climate, the impact could be social, the impact would be inclusion. There are various aspects of it. So the entire bucketing of it depends on what asset class and what is a problem that you're trying to solve. And those can define the different drivers in the global context.

We also know that many are gaming it as well. And it is not all right, we know instances where firms or investment management firms or companies are saying that they are responsible, sustainable, but their actions and their products or their services are not that right. So, people say all kinds of things, if you have a very particular focus and it makes it otherwise, you're all over the place.

In terms of global investing, there's the other aspect of passive investing. So much amount of global capital is now invested passively, which is basically following an index. And if you look at the traditional indices S& P 500, Dow Jones, MSCI, these are the large equity indices that global investors do. These indices do not sift for any aspect of sustainability or governance or responsibility, right? So, there are firms which are saying they're responsible and they're allocating passively through these traditional ETFs, which have no sifting for any of these aspects that you mentioned.

So, there is a lot of dichotomy in terms of what is being said and what is being tried to achieve and the actual outcomes.I'm not saying everybody is doing that. There are some great firms who are doing it and especially if they're asset class specific then they're very much focused.

And that's why as you said, there has been a push back to say, ESG as a factor of investing. Or, calling yourself response sustainable when you are having ETFs or passive indices, which clearly do not meet those requirements.I think there is still a lot of evolving to happen. Firms which put responsibility and sustainability or integrity at the core of everything that they do should be able to do better is what we believe.

Sudha: So clearly passive is very different from what patient investing is which you all are doing. I agree with what I see, my background is communications and reputation. I see that a lot of people have been very quick to jump on the bandwagon and be opportunistic, but it's not something that is embedded deeply into the organization and they're not, truly doing sustainable investing or responsible or even that impact investing. There are lots of words people use, it doesn't show through in how they behave or act.

You referred at the start to the integrity investing. And I read on your website about the integrity screen. What exactly does it mean and why do you have it considering that there are numerous auditing standards and frameworks could you not just work around those to develop the due diligence because this is like a due diligence that you have the integrity screen.

Arvind: Correct. I gave the history of the firm. So, Ajit met a South African gentleman, he doesn't remember his name in 1989. And that gentleman asked Ajit, my founder that, ‘young man, what do you want to do in your life?’

And Ajit said, I want to set up an investment management firm. And he said, I'll give you one piece of advice. When you shake your hands with someone and when you get it back, count your fingers. If there are not five fingers, then never shake their hands again. So that is what we took as a genesis of our integrity screen.

And we applied that to when we are investing in companies, we apply that as a filter in some sense, right? You said due diligence. It can be filter, it can be a positive filter or negative filter but that's where it started. And then I told you about the experience that we had with our joint venture with Jardine Fleming where we had an issue with a very large Indian corporate and they had done a measure which was completely anti minority.

And we had to take a call of not investing and that's when we build this integrity screen as a non-negotiable. That's why we call it integrity it is a moral that we will never give up. We'll learn, we'll understand, we'll change. But there's an aspect of, if we don't get our five fingers back based on whatever standards we apply, we will not invest in that fund.

So that's when it started in about 1996. It was initially about 12 odd parameters, some from the balance sheets, some from related party transactions, but it was still intuitive. So, there are certain questions that we still ask and we used to ask back then to the management, to the CEOs or to the family...

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Not many people in the western world have heard of Hansen’s disease or Leprosy – for most who are familiar with it arouses fear and aversion. It is a tropical disease that occurs in more than 120 countries, has been referenced in the bible and Victoria Hislop wrote The Island inspired by a visit to Spinalonga, the abandoned Greek leprosy colony, which sold over a million copies.

My earliest interaction with the disease was on the Main Street of the city I grew up in. Along the street, one aften came across a small group of people begging for alms, those badly affected being pulled on makeshift carts by the more able bodied. The easiest thing to do was to ignore them or pretend one could not see them or their plight. That was my first experience of shame. Shame at the lack of knowledge, confidence or ability to engage with respect with people disfigured and ostracised by disease. However, this is not about me but about people who are disenfranchised, excluded from accessing healthcare, education, economic opportunities and social support because of fear and misinformation.

A couples of months back, I happened to be seated on the same take table at India Week as Sian Arulanantham, head of programmes and research of Leprosy Mission UK. We got chatting about the incredible work they are doing across the world and in India and I invited them to be a guest on my podcast to speak about the important work being done to eradicate an ancient disease that stigmatises and makes outcasts of over two hundred thousand people every year.

In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, Daisy Mansfield Policy and Advocacy Adviser at Leprosy Mission talks about the work being done in India and across the world. We spoke about a) how they deliver on their goals in this highly complex geography b) behaviour change campaigns for education and removing social stigma c) Strategies to empower individuals and families d) Roles models with lived experience of disability and stigma e) WHO 2035 goal for eradication of the disease and challenges to getting to the target

The most important thing to remember is that if detected early, the disease is curable with multi drug therapy (MDT) and the good news is that the WHO has made MDT available free to all leprosy patients around the world (with the help of big pharma).

Head to the podcast to listen and see how you can support the cause 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Daisy. Lovely to have you here today. I'm so glad that I met with Sian and Louise at India Week recently in London. And that's how I came to know about the work of Leprosy Mission UK. So, let's start with a quick introduction. Tell us a bit about yourself.

Daisy: Hello. Yes. It's so nice to be with you on the podcast today. Thank you very much for having me. I'm Daisy and I work for the Leprosy Mission and have done for about three years now in a number of different roles. So, my current role is called a Programs and Advocacy Officer. Which means I am a point person, look after some of the projects that we fund in India and work in partnership with our team over in India. And previously I had roles in fundraising and also advocacy and policy working with UK stakeholders in parliament and also in international spaces such as the UN and WHO to advocate for people affected by leprosy.

Sudha: That's very interesting. So, we are here today to talk about leprosy or Hansen's disease. How prevalent is it globally? What is it and what are the symptoms? There seems to be a lot of ignorance, especially I'd say in Western countries. And it doesn't exist in lot of Western countries. So tell us a bit about it.

Daisy: Yeah, certainly. Actually, when I first joined the Leprosy Mission, I thought, Oh, I know what leprosy is. And I quickly realised that there was a lot of misunderstandings or misconceptions about the disease that I had thought were true.

And leprosy is one of the oldest diseases known. We see it back in biblical times, but there's so much of the disease that is so misunderstood in today's world and as you said, part of that is because it no longer exists here in the UK. It did many years ago and affected many thousands of people.

But today we see it across the world, particularly in places where poverty exists and slightly poorer communities, rural communities. So, you might be surprised to know there's 200, 000 new cases every year. And so. if you do the rough maths on that's about one person every two minutes.

And that's new cases of leprosy, but also there's thousands of people or millions of people that are living with the causes of leprosy which could be disability. It could also be the stigma that is surrounded by a leprosy diagnosis, which I'll talk a little bit more in detail about later. So, leprosy is a bacterial disease that is spread through prolonged and close contact and many of us think that leprosy is actually caught by touch, but that is a myth. It is not caught by touch it's transmitted through water droplets in the air, so between coughing and sneezing. But you need to have that prolonged contact with someone to catch leprosy.

Some people may remember many years ago. Princess Diana was heavily involved in work with people affected by leprosy. And she was over in India and there was a very iconic picture that hit the news of her with her hand, her arm around somebody affected by leprosy and everybody had told her, You can't touch them, don't touch them, you're going to get leprosy, and actually she'd been told by medical experts in these hospitals that it was okay, it wasn't caught by touch. And so, there's another example of a miscommunication that many of us have.

And let me just talk a little bit about the symptoms of leprosy as you've asked. So, leprosy affects the nerves and particularly in people's hands and their feet and they lose feeling in their hands and their feet. And you can perhaps imagine that you're cooking, and you've got a saucepan on the hob or something, and yes, it might be hot, but until you touch it, do you know how hot it is and actually. If you put yourself in a slightly more rural position where you perhaps you're cooking on an open fire, and you have a pan there if you have no feeling in your hand, there is nothing to tell you to remove your hand from this hot pan and you can so easily burn your hand and you can get really severe wounds and ulcers. And particularly many people experience ulcers on their feet. And these can get infected and if they're not looked after properly, sometimes there's no other choice other than amputation for people's legs particularly.

And so, we see one story is a young girl called Shakti who was in one of our hospitals in Nepal. She was only 16 years old and because her leprosy hadn't been diagnosed for many years. She'd hidden it away but also medical centres which she'd been to had not necessarily diagnosed it, she hadn't received the treatment particularly early and actually at 16 years old, she had to have an amputation of her leg. And the impact that had of her not being able to go to school and she had dreams that she wanted to become a doctor and the implications then of how her life changes at such a young age. One really key thing is to be able to find and treat people with leprosy as early as possible. The sooner people receive medical help, then the less likely they are to have implications.

Sudha: Daisy, is there a cure for leprosy? I know in India; all children are given the BCG vaccine just a couple of weeks after they're born. But I'm aware that again, in Western countries, it is not so prevalent and it's not something that is given. And also, there is the anti vax movement, which is pretty strong.

Daisy: Yeah, so actually the good news is there's a cure for leprosy and it's relatively straightforward. It's antibiotics as we know. These antibiotics are called multi drug therapy, MDT. And they're taken for between 6 and 12 months, depending on the load of bacteria in somebody's body.

And for patients affected by leprosy, these antibiotics are free. But actually, they only cost 24 pound so, they're not expensive to provide for people affected by leprosy. And the link that you mentioned to the BCG vaccine obviously children get this vaccination when they're first born.

And this actually, offers a small bit of protection against leprosy. The primary job of that vaccine is tuberculosis, but the reason that there's a link is because the bacteria of leprosy and the bacteria of TB are almost like cousins. They share some similarities and so that vaccination doesn't necessarily fully prevent people from getting leprosy, but it does provide an extra level of protection.

And so, there's lots of research across many of the countries around the world research centres are studying how leprosy is transmitted, the actual bacteria and particularly a lot of research into the tools to diagnose leprosy. We want to be able to diagnose leprosy within communities and easily be able to identify, diagnose, and treat people as soon as possible.

We have some world leading research centres within the leprosy mission that are researching these things, and we continue to do this and this is really a key part of what we do to fully understand leprosy. It's a very complex disease and so we need more research and more funding to understand this to be able to provide the right treatment for people.

Sudha: Yeah. We discussed that leprosy is not necessarily prevalent in Western countries. And about two thirds of the incidences are found in India, followed by Brazil and Indonesia. Is there a reason why there are more incidences of the disease in these countries. Is the climate is the weather or is it poverty?

What contributes? I'm sure there's some data and research around that.

Daisy: Yes. Leprosy has historically been endemic in lots of these countries. And leprosy has existed in India for decades. This year we actually have the hundred and fifty years of the leprosy mission, India. And back before the 1980s, there was no cure for leprosy.

So, for many of these 150 years, we could only provide love and care to these patients. But for the last 40 we've been able to provide the cure and that medical intervention to help and support people affected by leprosy.

But also, you can't ignore the fact that India is a huge country and has a population of almost 1. 4 billion people so it's not a surprise that the cases are quite high there due to the volume of people. But leprosy actually is a disease that's associated with poverty. So, it's associated with people who live in poor conditions, with people who for a long period of time have had poor sanitation, poor hygiene, unclean water, poor nutrition.

And therefore, they have a weak immune system, their immune system is lower, and so they're more susceptible to having leprosy. And then again, in some really rural areas there's limited access to healthcare, so people aren't able to or just don't know where to go to seek treatment when it's needed and the longer leprosy goes untreated, the more likely people are to have disabilities and severe implications of leprosy.

And another huge thing is the stigma the lack of awareness that contributes to the high level of cases. We see so much stigma and discrimination about leprosy across many of the countries that we work in. And a lot of that is based on those misconceptions that we were speaking about earlier.

Sudha: So, what is the focus of the leprosy mission in India, which is some of the work you lead on?

Daisy: Yeah. The leprosy mission, India we have several hospitals, leprosy mission hospitals across many of the different states and there we provide the medical care for people affected by leprosy.

So that could range from the cure to care for their ulcers. There's something called leprosy reaction. Which some people will experience, and they need to spend an extended period of time in hospital receiving medical treatment for that. And physiotherapy for people who lose feeling in their hands and feet and something else called reconstructive surgery.

Which helps with the mobility of people's hands and restoring movement and combined with the physiotherapy as well. So, the hospitals provide medical care but we have a, holistic view in that we don't just want to provide the medical care. We want to support people affected by leprosy in a range of different ways.

We have, vocational training centres in India, which is where people affected by leprosy students, young people. They come and they study a course. And the reason they may go to one of these centres is because of leprosy and stigma either they have leprosy themself or one of their family members, they might have been kicked out of school, for many years so they may have missed education and need extra support, or perhaps they've been in education, but because of leprosy struggle to find opportunities, job opportunities and so they come and they learn a skill. And then they're supported to go through the employment process.

These VTCs that we have, the centres, have a lot of partnerships with local businesses and organisations and spend time raising awareness within the organisations about leprosy and the needs of people affected by leprosy. And another huge part of what we do is advocacy and research. As I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of ongoing research to improve the treatment and understand the disease, but also a lot of advocacy to ensure people are accessing their entitlements, to ensure they're aware of their rights and their entitlements.

In India people all have access to disability certificates, which will allow them pensions. And other rights things like bus passes as well. So, it's supporting people within the community to advocate for their own rights. But then at a national level to ensure that leprosy is on the agenda.

India has one of the largest leprosy eradication programs the government run a national leprosy eradication program. So, the government are doing a lot of work to support people affected by leprosy to find, to diagnose and to treat. So, a lot of what we do at the Leprosy Mission India is we work alongside the government.

We work with them and align our projects ensure that we are providing the best possible care for people affected by leprosy.

Sudha: Yeah, that's a whole lot of stuff that you're doing a leprosy mission in India. And as you said that you align the work that you do with what the agenda for the national government is. India has a huge leprosy eradication program.

And I think they've been successful in how they've been treating TB, which is also highly prevalent in the country with the outreach at the grassroots level, but India, like we discussed earlier, it's a very complex country and delivering healthcare and also support to communities is not easy considering there are states and there are national government and then there are local governments and priorities.

So how do you deliver on your goals in this highly complex geography? How important are collaborations and partners on the ground?

Daisy: Yeah, I think it's a huge thing to be aware of in India you can cross one state boundary and that can be completely different ways of doing things. As I was talking about the entitlements and the disability pensions, you can go from one state where people might be entitled to 3,000 rupees and then you cross another state, and they're entitled to 6,000 rupees. And so, the changes between different states is huge and one of the key things is working alongside government health workers within these states. And yes, we have the leprosy mission Great Britain here in the UK, but actually we partner with the leprosy mission India and we work with the Leprosy Mission India, who are on the ground, who understand the community, who are locals and they team up with other organisations, other grassroots organisations working within the community, who understand the context and we can then really take that community based approach where we're working within the local networks.

One thing that we try and do in a lot of our work is to ensure that people affected by leprosy are central to the projects that we have, to the work that we're doing. And actually, they are the change makers themselves. Sometimes they're called leprosy champions, and they get involved in leprosy case detection, they get involved in awareness within their communities, advocacy, we have also self-help groups where people affected by leprosy will come together, support one another, train each other and how to care for their ulcers and how to really look after themselves.

And that is so key to what we do, they are central and actually, we almost follow their lead, it's led by people affected by leprosy and what they want and what they need. So that partnership is really key. And then we try as well to use as many innovative solutions.

We use things like technology or mobile clinics or things like this to overcome some of the geographical challenges.

Sudha: Like you said, it's hugely complex. It's not easy. It is like creating a whole support system in order to deliver on the program to support the communities that are affected or impacted by leprosy.

So, you know, I grew up in India and there's a huge amount of stigma attached to the disease. People affected by leprosy live on the margins of society because they get ostracized, and this is likely to push them further into poverty. What can be done to empower individuals with the disease and their families?

You've referred to some of the programs that you're doing with young people. Can you elaborate on that, please?

Daisy: Yes, of course. So, stigma is a huge thing across all of our countries but it's prevalent in India as well and that discrimination that people face, it's a huge challenge and continues to be. Back in...

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Disclaimer: All views expressed in the podcast are Sakshi Bansal’s personal views and do not represent or reflect the views of Arup Ltd.

Excited to share the latest episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast featuring Sakshi Bansal FRSA ChMC! 🎙️ Sakshi, a recipient of The Diana Award, the world’s first UNESCO Kindness leader and Founder of Project LEAP, dives deep into the 'S' in ESG.

In our conversation, we explore:

👉🏾 Psychology's link to sustainability

👉🏾 Social equity, triple bottom line, and social license to operate

👉🏾 Challenges in reporting the 'S' factor and current industry trends

👉🏾 Global sustainability dialogue dynamics and diversity concerns

👉🏾 Millennials' & Gen Z's perceptions of Purpose-driven organizations

👉🏾 The importance of continuous learning in navigating evolving standards

Tune in for insightful discussions on sustainability and ESG with @SakshiBansal

Link to the podcast in the comments below. 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

hashtag#ESGhashtag#Sustainabilityhashtag#PodcastDiscussion

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Sakshi. Wonderful to have you as a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Sakshi: Hi, thank you so much. It's so nice to be here.

Sudha: To start with, give us a quick introduction and tell us a bit about yourself, maybe your childhood, education.

Sakshi: Gosh a bit about myself. So, I am a psychologist by education, both a bachelor's and master's degree, but I'm also a management and strategy consultant now. And if I look back on my career, because it's so well integrated into who am I it's what I call a roller-coaster career or a squiggly career. It started in a tech startup. I was studying in Delhi I wanted to be a professional salsa dancer, And I came across these guys and they were doing something really cool at university, building an AI platform for billing and telling software and digital menus of the hospitality industry.

And I said, ah, I'll join you. And started working in a startup as one of those co-founders specifically focused on bringing in clients. So we were a bunch of 16, 17, 18 year olds with a team of 20 people bringing in clients and selling our hardware and software products all over Delhi on a tech platform that I knew nothing about. So that was my first real education, I think, into the world of entrepreneurship is learning how to not run a business, how to be a leader, how to talk to investors. And I think very early on, I got an insight into that world. And I think that sparked the sort of entrepreneurial interest in myself, and then I later went on to start a charity. So later means two years later, when we sold the startup to Amazon, went on to start a charity which is called Project Leap, and we were providing free education to underprivileged families in New Delhi. And that really came out of a very personal experience I had visiting some of these areas in New Delhi.

And I saw that while people want to help, they just don't know how to help And so we started Project Leapfor the last 10, 12 years of my life, I've been running Project Leap. We've expanded to different parts of the world, to Nepal, Sri Lanka, pan Africa. Then I came to the UK, did leadership development here, capacity building, team building for three years and then started doing sustainability and ESG and investments.

It's just been a roller coaster of various different things, but I've had a real privilege of working in various different organisations such as the UN as a youth activist, talking about, youth employment even in New York, all the way to Australia doing change management. And now, in India in aviation so it's really just a mixed background.

But I grew up with a very simple idea. I want to be a dancer, and I want to travel the world.

Sudha: And now today, of course, you are dialling in from the UK, you are in the UK, like me not based in India at this point in time.

Sakshi: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's really important to be mindful of the personal, experiences you've had and how they shape you as a person. And not a lot of people have time for that kind of reflection, but I've always. And maybe that's where the psychology background comes into play, right? You make time for reflection, and you think about how things have shaped you and it helps you take the next step as well.

Sudha: So, you wouldn't assume that after degree and master’s in psychology, you'd end up doing sustainability and ESG. what's connect? How did you find that route?

Sakshi: I think it's a very good question, because honestly, I was in my first company after my master's degree doing a very psychology focused role. So doing leadership development, team building and all that. And when COVID hit and I was in parallel running my charity as well, we started taking the charity work international and remote.

I was so well versed with the grassroots challenges in India that this time I had to re-educate myself on what's happening in Africa and what's happening in New Zealand. And I had a reintroduction to SDGs as well, which is sustainable development goals. And so, this understanding about sustainability and what that means and how do we redefine it for education, which was my charity's goal, became really important.

And I think at the same time, I was growing discontent with what I was doing in my job. Not because it wasn't good, but just because it wasn't good enough. There was so much else I could do, and I think that's when the entrepreneurial spirit sort of came back to hit me. And I said, I'm working for a big company, it was Willis Towers Watson. It's a massive US based conglomerate. So, they don't just do what I'm doing, they do 20 other things. So just started ringing people up from the organisation and started asking the question. What is your role? What do you do?

What do you care about? And these are really senior people. And around that time, ESG was a word that was quite thrown around quite a lot. So some of the senior directors in my company were trying to understand what ESG means for them and for the business. And what do we take to market? And what do we say to clients?

And I offered help, I was so young, and I said, when you go and speak to clients, can I come, I can help facilitate some of these conversations. I'm good at that. And we went to Spain, we went to France, we went to, various different clients with my company.

And we just asked the question, what does ESG mean? What does it mean for your business? What can we do for you? And then we came back and synthesized all of that data to try and make a go to market offering for Willis Towers Watson. And that was my role; to go and listen and suddenly I was working with a whole different team in the company with very senior leaders. And it was my first experience of making a global strategy for a very targeted thing that I knew nothing about. But actually, I probably had done it before with the tech startup as well. So that was really interesting. And I realized that coming from a psychology background is such an advantage because I really understand some of the things around social, so ESG is Environment, Social and Governance, right?

And the social pillar and the governance pillar were really intrinsic to me.

I knew how to measure them. I knew what the impact was. I had tools and a toolkit with me that other people didn't or shied away from. And just after leaving Willis Towers Watson I published a paper on what does ESG mean for psychologists, how do we interact with ESG, how do we bring sustainability and ESG into our clients and our day to day, and why it is so important for us to be part of that momentum of ESG and the global dialogue.

I published the paper; I was presenting that as a keynote speaker at a conference. And my current employers, Arup, were in the audience and asked me to come in and consider Arup as a potential future employer. And so, I did. And I did that because Arup was much further ahead in their ESG sustainability journey. They were almost market leaders in this space. And I thought this is a real opportunity for me to walk the talk and understand how I can add value.

And so, when I first joined, I started doing private equity investor due diligence, what is the people lens of assets and how do we create a due diligence around it? What do we assess? What are the risks? How does that impact your triple bottom line, your CapEx and your OpEx? And now I look after that, ESG due diligence, what is social due diligence particularly and what does that mean for emerging markets? That's my role now.

Sudha: That's a very interesting journey and very interesting transition also. So moving on Sakshi, I was reading up your profile that you have various roles and you're doing various things in your job and outside your job, so you are the United Nations Global compact Coordinator for Arup. And you're also the president for SDGs for WICCI. What does this mean and what does this entail and why are you involved?

Sakshi: These are really interesting roles. So, at Arup, I am, as you said, the UN Global Compact Coordinator.

Arup is signed up to UNGC. We are one of the business partners and signatories to the UNGC. So UNGC has a set of regulations and guidelines and commitmentswhich is around making sure that human rights violations are not in our supply chain and making sure that we're adhering to global standards of sustainability, which we do as a company.

My role is to make sure that we are signed up to it. We are reaping the benefits of being a UNGC signatory, which means we have these competitions for our junior members of the team that they can sign up to and take part in sustainability, innovation challenges et cetera.

It's really like a learning platform for our members of the company, but also for us to continue to adhere to some of those guidelines and be signatories and also inspiration to other organisations in our network. And then similarly with WICCI, I think that role is a lot about understanding what SDG means specifically for India and for New Delhi.

What does it mean for the city? How do we bring people together from different walks of life that are interested or doing something about the SDGs? Whether that's activism or research or civil society, and how do we bring that together to shape a dialogue about Delhi and SDGs? So I've had the privilege of presenting some of that dialogue at UN General Assembly last year in New York in September.

All of these roles are really about keeping an ear on the ground and really listening to what people are doing, what challenges they're facing and helping them become part of a global dialogue, because that's what we really need.

Sudha: Yeah, that's true. We all need to be connected. We all need to know what the other is doing to learn probably from successes and failures.

How important is social equity and social risk assessment /in the grand scheme of things for organisations. I call it the business equity and inclusion risk resilience.

Sakshi: I really like the way you have said it's a social equity inclusion, risk resilience, because these are very important metrics for an organisation.. Talking about social equity for any organisation for any asset, whether you're diversifying the asset or expanding the asset or decommissioning the asset, or even, it's a greenfield asset.

I think for all of them, it's very important to continue to have or to create a social license to operate. Because really, whenever you're talking about asset and built environment, it exists in a place where community, any kind of community is impacted by it. Whether that's people living there that are going to be displaced, or whether it's people living there that have to deal with the noise and the pollution that's emitted from the industry or the asset.

Whether that's the biodiversity, whether that's the flora and the fauna, that's all community and somebody or the other cares about it. And I think that if you have an asset that you're investing in, and there's a likely possibility or a risk that you will lose the social license to operate because people are not reaping the benefits or worse, are getting some kind of negative influence from that asset.

It's a high risk. We have seen that with organisations such as Amazon with their data centers, when they're proposing different parts of the world and the communities have protested because it's just not beneficial for the community, doesn't uplift them. It takes away sometimes the jobs or doesn't create local economic opportunities.

I think that's really important for an organisation or for an asset to have that license to operate. I think that there are specific things that you assess under social equity, right? You've got your human rights violations. These are the factors that have a direct impact on your triple bottom line, and this is not the fluffy stuff, but this is genuinely the stuff that helps you understand. Absolutely.

So, I think ESG is really connected. Environment, social, and governance they're interlinked, and a lot of people tend to focus on the environment side of it. But actually, the environmental policy, for example, energy efficiency of an asset, It won't be optimized unless people in the building or in that asset are ready to bring the demand down.

And that is not just in your policy, but also in day to day how are you running the company? What's the governance like? What's the culture like? Are people really interconnected? And that again, in turn impacts your environmental performance that impacts your OPEX and financial performance.

I think these are really interconnected challenges. Things like demographic changes, right? We have got energy, renewable assets that are trying to diversify their portfolio, buy new assets, create new assets, but where they sort of lack judgment or don't see this risk properly, foresee this risk, is what are the demographic changes in that local area, right? Are we going to have a population that's educated enough to take up local jobs educated in the right sectors that is going to take up the local jobs so that we can fulfill the employment demand and the headcount demand we are going to create in this area.

So if you're, creating a new asset in Cumbria which is western part of England, you probably need employment there. You want to create employment there and you need young people there to take up those jobs, but young people aren't ready to go to Cumbria and take up those jobs. And then plus the universities in Cumbria aren't educating the young people or don't have university courses about renewable energy. So how are we going to actually fulfil that demand? That's a very big risk that people are, or assets or investors are not able to foresee because they are not assessing the social equity.

Sudha: Yeah.

And I totally agree with you that, all E, S and G parts are interlinked when you talk about equity and inclusion piece, which is the S piece, if you don't think of one or the other, I think that is a problem. And generally, people tend to have a very narrow view.

We've spoken about, as I said, equity and inclusion, business risk and resilience. What are some of the trends of reporting on S and ESG, and what are some of the biggest challenges that companies face in reporting?

One is, of course, their narrow outlook or lack of awareness and education that these are all interlinked issues. And so what has been your experience of having worked in multiple geographies?

Sakshi: Absolutely. I think they're still struggling to understand what it exactly means.

You've got these all-external reporting standards, TCFD and ILO and GRI, and they have come up with a few factors of risk that you can assess under the S, but they're not comprehensive enough. There's so much more that goes underneath the social and governance. And, I always like to say Social, unfortunately, suffers from the middle child syndrome and governance is just really hard to understand.

So people can't pin it on procedural governance, is it operational governance? Is it systemic governance? All that. And I think that it's exactly that, if people haven't given social, the time that it deserves to be understood and they haven't gone...

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Shownotes:

Being an advocate for equity and inclusion requires a certain level of self-awareness, humility and an appetite to be a lifelong learner. Especially considering that the vocabulary around DEIB/DEIBA or whatever you choose to call it is constantly evolving, there is more we don’t know than we know.

My chance encounter with Caroline Collier, CEO Inclusion Barnet happened over a LinkedIn recruitment post and my subsequent message to her regarding the language. She was gracious in her response educating me about why they were using ‘disabled person’ (instead of person first language). I was slightly mortified but glad that I had the opportunity to engage with Caroline to better understand why they subscribe to the social model of disability.

I am grateful to Caroline for making time for this important conversation (a learning opportunity for me). In the episode we spoke about Inclusion Barnet and why it describes itself as a Deaf and Disabled People’s organisation, deaf being separate from disabled in deference to the cultural model of deafness. We also spoke at length about the ‘social model of disability; harnessing lived experiences for social change; acceptable language; role of the private sector in opening up opportunities; what allies can do to support; and the just launched ‘Campaign for Disability Justice’ calling for a) Opportunity b) Security c) Respect.

Did you know that care in the UK is based on a ‘medical model’ that frames the body or mind of disabled person as something that needs to be fixed?

“We see disability through the ‘social model’, where being Disabled is a political term that describes our experience of marginalisation, not individual impairments. The social model allows us to come together to fight back against a world that we can’t navigate safely without care and support. This model helps us understand that a flourishing social care system should give us access to choices and the freedom to live independently.

We want a system that enables us to live independently, rather than generating a list of ‘care tasks’ our local authority can charge us for. The struggle for a better, more equal system should unify us all to talk about intersectionality and disability justice alongside the crucial demands for fair conditions for both paid and unpaid carers, wholesale changes to the gendered imbalance of care responsibilities, and the need to tackle the looming climate crisis, which will affect our capacity to care for one another.” Caroline Collier, CEO Inclusion Barnet

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Caroline. It's wonderful to have you today as a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast. Thank you for being here

Caroline: Thank you. Really pleased to be asked, so thank you so much.

Sudha: Let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Caroline: I'm Caroline Collier. I'm CEO of a deaf and disabled persons' organization called Inclusion Barnet. My background is varied. I started after college working in libraries. Then I ended up in my thirties writing about the construction industry, unusually enough. That changed in 2009 when I became really ill with what turned out to be bipolar. I had a bit of a rethink just because I wanted to find something with a little bit more purpose, and I was incredibly lucky to end up working in the organization that is now Inclusion Barnet. I've been here for nearly 14 years, and I consider myself incredibly privileged to be able to have a job where I can sometimes make a bit of a difference and also just be learning every day.

Sudha: Yes, it's good to hearbecause we tend to put people in boxes but there's always a journey.

Caroline: I've been pretty adaptable over the years, I would say, yes.

Sudha: From what I understand, Inclusion Barnet it is a deaf and disabled people's organisation. Tell us a bit more. I'm curious and interested to understand why deaf is separate.

Caroline: Okay. You're not the first person to ask, and it does confuse a lot of people. But the deaf being separate from disabled is in deference to the cultural model of deafness, which rejects the idea that hearing loss is an impairment and instead emphasizes the shared sort of culture and history of British Sign Language users. So, because the deaf community is more comfortable with that approach, in London at least, we tend to use "deaf and disabled people's organisations" to recognise that distinction. Sometimes, in other parts of the UK, just "disabled people's organisation" is also used, but that's regional variance.

Sudha: That's very interesting to know and also good to be aware about this.

So Caroline, our first interaction took place because I reached out to correct you by suggesting person-first language on a LinkedIn post and very kindly and generously, you educated me on the social model of disability, which I know of. I have been looking at diversity and inclusion and try to keep myself updated. But I'm hesitant to use that model. Is one or the other more acceptable and why?

Caroline: That's really interesting, and I might explore with you later, if you're okay with that, why you're hesitant, because I think that's really interesting.

The first thing to say is, obviously, we can all self-describe however we want to. But I think one of the reasons that the kind of person-first convention has taken hold is because the social model of disability is not nearly as widely known as it should be. Very simply, the social model of disability says, okay, some of us have conditions, impairments, illness, whatever, but what actually disables us is not our individual condition, but it's the disabling attitudes and barriers created by society. So if I were a wheelchair user, my problem in a multi-storey building is the fact that there isn't a lift; it's not a problem with me, it's a problem with the building.

If I was rejected for a job because someone was worried about whether a bipolar person could do the role and whether they could handle the stress and all the other bad attitudes people have, that's not a problem with my competency. That's a problem with their attitudes. So, there's a lot that society can do. And it's really important because society needs to accept responsibility for changing and being inclusive. I'm not saying the social model is perfect; no theoretical model is perfect, but it's a really important construct to make us think about, okay, what can government do? What can institutions do?

Because there's always a temptation with disability to just go, oh, it's sad, but it can't be helped. A lot of things can be helped, and it's really lazy thinking, especially today when we have so much technological knowledge, so much ability to change things. Why wouldn't we just make things as accessible as possible? So, it's important to keep pushing the social model, reminding people, and just challenging people to think about difference. And how that comes back to language is, I always say disabled people or disabled person because we are disabled by society. If you say person with disabilities, you're attaching the disability to the person. That's social thinking. So that's why we make that distinction. And can I ask you why you're hesitant? That's really interesting.

Sudha: While you've been speaking, I've been thinking about that, why I've been hesitant. And it could also be to do with the fact that people are not as conversant, including me, with the social model of disability. While we hear advocates occasionally speaking about it, the other model is more prevalent in most places, even in training, unfortunately. And that could be the reason for the hesitancy because you're unsure, am I doing the right thing?

Caroline: Yeah, no, it's difficult, isn't it? And I think we all sometimes worry about saying the wrong thing.

I think it's a challenge for the disability movement to actually get more airtime to explain why this is important because the theory behind it is important; it's the impetus for change. And while we campaign for that change, we think it's important to use the language that reflects that. That's not to say that there aren't all kinds of challenges trying to always find the right words for the right things, because I think that's something that we all grapple with in this world now. But the core theory of trying to get systemic barriers changed is the overriding thing.

Sudha: That's true. I've gone to your website and seen this, that you speak a lot about harnessing lived experiences for social change. How do you do that, and why does it matter?

Caroline: I think it’s really important to bring lived experience to bear on a variety of issues.

And we use our lived experience in a variety of ways. A good example might be, we have a service called Touchpoint, which is all staffed by disabled people and provides peer support and welfare benefits advice in Barnet. So, we think, because we work in a social model way, we’re not just working with each individual as an individual to help them overcome barriers and achieve goals and access entitlements. We’re looking at this as a team and going, what patterns are we seeing here? What’s emerging? What resonates in terms of things that we could tackle locally to make a difference? So, I might have a meeting with the team and find myself writing to the DWP about something that doesn’t work, calling the local council to say we’ve got an issue with this, or finding out there’s an issue with accessibility in GP surgeries.

And you might say, could something go in the GP newsletter to just remind them about reasonable adjustments? It’s just trying to think, what differences can we make here? It’s using that social model approach: how can we dismantle some barriers here? Even if it’s incremental things sometimes, what can we do to make life a little bit more accessible?

From another perspective, also, there is a saying that you can’t be what you can’t see, and being open about being a person with lived experience and mental health issues, working in a leadership role, I think that’s also me using my lived experience to say, despite people’s expectations of me, it turned out I could do this and maybe you can do it too.

And that’s really empowering for people who might be really internalising stigma about what people are going to think they’re capable of. It’s really sad when that changes people’s own views of what they’re capable of and trying to provide that positive role model I think is really important.

We believe that we can use the lived experience to take a leadership role in creating a thriving and socially just society. Hugely ambitious aspiration, but we’re trying to show as an organisation that we’re not just providing services by and for disabled people. We can provide services that benefit the whole community because we’re thinking in terms of inclusion and dismantling barriers.

Now, I might give you an example of that if that’s helpful.

Sudha: Yeah absolutely.

Caroline: Yeah, so we run an equalities network that's not just concerned with disability issues. And, for instance, we held a meeting last year where we were looking at barriers to health access from multiple angles. We found that, with three groups particularly, so people with learning disabilities, people who experienced homelessness and rough sleeping, and people who experienced English as a second language, so three very different groups, they were all experiencing barriers and being excluded.

And there were overlapping issues that we could look at holistically. So we went to our local hospital, the Royal Free, and we started a project group with them to say, "Okay, how can we change some systems here, so people don’t get unintentionally excluded before they’ve finished their treatment?" So that was a really useful piece of work, still continuing actually. We’re doing a pilot in pre-operative care to make sure people don’t get excluded from operations that they might need, and we’re hoping to take that wider.

I think that’s quite a good example of how thinking in that kind of barriers way and how do we dismantle barriers is helpful for everybody

Sudha: Yeah, like you said, it's a really good example of it working for the entire community and it's not just for some people, it will benefit everyone in general.

Caroline: Exactly.

Sudha: Caroline, another thing that I learned during my conversations with you, you mentioned that disability is unique in the sense that it would be inconceivable for any rights-based groups to be led by people without lived experience. And, of course, we’ve seen this in the past couple of years, that there would be a huge outcry if something like that were to happen. But the reality is that most disabled people’s organizations are run by non-disabled people. Why is this acceptable?

Caroline: I think we have to start by differentiating the disability charities. The big traditional disability charities are indeed largely run by non-disabled people. Disabled people’s organisations or deaf and disabled people’s organisations are run by deaf and disabled people. That’s a bit of a differentiator. And the reason it’s happened like that, because the disability charities have been around for far longer, is for a start. Forty or fifty years ago, a lot of disabled people were institutionalised; we culturally had even lower expectations of what disabled people were able to do. And I think that there is still something, even if it’s unspoken or unconscious, where there’s still doubt around disabled people’s competency. Now, that might sound surprising, but we did several focus groups last year as part of a project to try and understand how different messaging lands with the general public.

It was really interesting because, firstly, some messages landed okay. There was a certain amount of openness around equality and rights for disabled people, but the message that landed least was when we said something like, “Disabled people are best placed to lead their own organisations.” There was actually a lot of push back. That might surprise you, but there really was. People were really uncomfortable about that. There’s a belief that it shouldn’t go to a disabled person; it should be the best person for the job. And we’re like, “Hey, so we’re saying that a non-disabled person might know better than a disabled person?” Okay, so that’s what you think. And people were even more explicit like that. But it’s just not a good idea. One lady specifically said it: “You couldn’t have somebody with mental health issues leading an organisation.” And as a bipolar CEO, that’s quite hard to hear and quite amusing also, because in her worldview, I probably couldn’t exist. But there is still a lot of expectation that disabled people will be passive, and that’s still something that we’re on a journey as a society to change.

Sudha: I think it's a lot of it like you said Caroline, is linked to the idea and that's like really embedded in most of us is that it's a competency issue. You can be one or the other.

Caroline: Absolutely. And the flip side of that is Oh if you appear to be quite competent you were never that ill or you're, you're not. People really can't hold the two thoughts together.

Sudha: Yeah, again, very enlightening and interesting. Disabled people, like any disadvantaged group, are not a monolith. What would your advice be on how best to communicate with them? I would always start with being open, respectful, and non-patronising, because unconsciously we tend to patronise people, and this is how we start. But what are the things actually I’d like to hear? What would your advice be?

Caroline: Okay, no, interesting question. I think the first thing to say is that a lot of the time you won’t even know if you’re talking to a disabled person because things are not always visible, and many disabled people won’t have any specific communication needs anyway. Beyond that, it’s really not one size fits all. I mean, start with thinking about things like, in the workplace, remembering that you won’t always know if you’ve got a disabled colleague.

Ask before meetings if people have any access issues. Do that in recruitment as well; give people time to prepare. I had to really work hard on that because I tend to do everything a bit lastminute.com, and I’ve had to really try and retrain myself that for some people an agenda a couple of days in advance makes a huge difference to their ability to contribute.

Think about just practical things like, if someone is trying to lip-read, don’t cover your mouth while you’re talking. If you’re talking to somebody with a learning disability, try and be simple and clear. But please try not to talk to people like they’re children; be age appropriate. Obviously, it’s different if you are talking to a child, but don’t talk down to adults.

Don’t ask intrusive questions and don’t make assumptions about other people’s quality of life or their abilities. Because I think some people get so tired of hearing, “Oh, you must be very brave,” or “What happened to you?” And I mean, it’s just like, you think that the first person that said that—just don’t be that person. Don’t do it. Don’t do it.

Sudha: Yeah, that is true. And I guess the other thing to do is one of our speakers said this at a conference is that sometimes, it's, good not to try and fill silences be comfortable when you are with people generally.

Caroline: Yeah, I think that's good.

Sudha: What can the private sector do to attract and retain deaf and disabled candidates? We know that representation or their participation in jobs is hampered because of how we are currently structured. How crucial is the private sector to opening up more opportunities, so that people can, fulfil their potential or work to their potential.

Caroline: Absolutely, I think the private sector does have a huge role to play and there is support out there. There are specialist job sites where you can advertise for disabled candidates, and there are organisations like our own that can give you advice...

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Show notes:

We all need our cheerleaders, the people, who stand by us through thick and thin, who inspire and bring us joy. The friends who are like family or better. I am lucky to have a few friends like that. One amongst them is @SabianaAnandaraj, whom I have known since my first job in PR over 30 years ago when I was a young mom to two toddlers in Mumbai, and she was the young, independent, go getter who introduced me to the workings of the agency and our mutual clients. We worked together for a short while before life got in the way and we drifted apart - she moved jobs, got married, had kids and I moved to the UK.

It was serendipity that we bumped into each other in early 2007 in Mumbai. The circumstances were wildly different her father was in very ill in hospital and mine was in and out of hospital (the same hospital) as he battled a rare form of Parkinson’s. Sadly, both our fathers passed away in 2007 much before their time. And @SabianaAnandaraj facilitated my unexpected move back to India for a stint to look after my mother. This move would have been impossible without @SabianaAnandaraj offering me a role in the agency she worked for at that time. And the ‘rest as they say is history.’ Today, we have a deeply, fulfilling friendship and our lives are deeply enmeshed (along with the rest of the gang) enmeshed together (in the best possible way).

Getting her on the podcast has been on the cards for a while, to share her amazing work trajectory and her foray into entrepreneurship. But, also to spotlight the reality, that women in their 50s are not done as yet, they don’t suddenly lose their ambition. The dominant narrative is about them being overlooked and written off but some of us are pushing back against the lazy ageist trope. Sabiana and I are both in our mid-50s (soon to be late), have no plans to retire and firmly believe the next decade may be our best as yet Also, I don’t think we are the kind of people who will take kindly to being overlooked! In this free flowing conversation we spoke about our mothers, being old, work, women in leadership, ageism, freedom in the 50s, entrepreneurship, learnings, cheerleaders, staying motivated and much more…..

We still need to talk about female friendships, menopause, empty nest, ambition, aspiration, work-life, second innings, third innings, fulfilment, and definitions of success……

Meanwhile, head to the podcast to hear more……

Episode transcript

Sudha: Hi Sabiana. I'm so, so happy to have you as a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast. We've been discussing this for the longest time, and finally, it has happened. It's good to see you here.

Sabiana: Thanks so much, Sudha. It has been a pleasure. I was really excited when you asked me to be a guest on your podcast. We know each other for decades, have had, n number of informal conversations. I think this is one of our first formal conversations on a platform like this. So, I'm really looking forward to it.

Sudha: Let's get started with the questions. I always ask all my guests. And even though I know you so well, and we've known each other for decades, please introduce yourself for our listeners and tell us a bit about yourself.

Sabiana: In the grand scheme of things, I am the third musketeer in the family lineup.

All the way from Bombay, I am today a 57 year old grown up. My one and only, what do I say? partner in crime is Trivikram. I've spawned two mini me's through him. One is Aria, who's my son, and Kaira, who's my daughter. My entrepreneurial journey started in the year 2020, I must say where I started my rollercoaster journey which I tell you that twist and turns could probably be something that you could compare with a Indian, Bollywood, blockbuster. But after two years now, finally I've settled down and I'm really enjoying the entrepreneurial journey.

Sudha: So, you're enjoying the ride, so to speak.

Sabiana: Yes, that's right.

Sudha: We've discussed this informally a lot of times, and we speak about it. You know, when our parents were in their 40s and 50s, we thought they were really old, but like you just admitted on the podcast that you're 57, and I'm 57, I don't feel very old. Do you feel old?

Sabiana: I don't actually you know, but we must understand that the times are very different Sudha. They came from a time where there was so many limitations, right? I mean, look at the job scene then, look at the job scene now, look at the exposure we have as compared to the exposure they had.

They always looked for government jobs where there was work life balance. Here we are looking at, you know, raring to go even at 57. So, I think it is the times that really defined how you felt. Given the day and age that we are in today. I don't think we feel old because there is so much opportunity that I don't feel I've come to the end of that opportunity, which probably they would have, you know, at 58, they are retired, they worked at government organizations, lived in joint families. I think in their heads, life, had to come to a grinding halt from a professional point at 58.

At 57, I mean, you know, two years ago I just started, being an entrepreneur, a new twist in my career. So, no, I don't feel old at all to answer your question.

Sudha: Yeah, I mean, my mum was 42 when I had my oldest daughter, that is Asmita. And of course, my children show no signs of getting married or settling. And as you said, times are different. And the weight that they felt, I think it was those times where they got married early, had children early, did everything sort of at an accelerated pace and then waited. And I think even the lifespan used to be smaller. We now live longer and healthier than I think they did.

Coming to something that I believe is very true. Do you think people view women differently after a certain age? Personally, , of course, and professionally.

Sabiana: Sudha, I've had different experiences. I think generally speaking, yes, they do. Again, it depends on the times that we are talking about. Professionals our age at that time would be looked at very differently, treated very differently, perceived very differently, judged very differently. Over the years, I think that gap has been bridged to a large extent only for the reason that women have started playing different roles.

In the past, women were playing more housewives and not really sitting in boardrooms. Today you see women are in boardrooms as well. They've broken all glass ceilings. So they are viewed differently, but that gap has been bridged over time. There's nothing that a man can do that a woman can't do.

And I think over time, they've realised that we play a role at home. We look after their parents, our parents, our children, the home, and a successful career as well. So I look at it really differently because my experience has been very, very different. I've worked for organisations, Sudha, where the senior leadership team were all men and I probably was the only woman. But nobody really made me feel that I was the only woman. They gave me equal rights to speak up and so on and so forth.

But I think generally speaking, it has been a struggle. When I speak to the other womenfolk, it has been a struggle for them to get their foot in the door, for them to really get things moving because men, I can't generalise, but there are men who are also very insecure about a woman taking over their seat, which they probably had for years, right? So then all those nuances one does have to face being a woman, but I think slowly things are changing.

Sudha: Yeah. So this is the impact in the workplace. And I think this conversation that we are having, some of it is we are reviewing the journey that we have come on and that journey has not always been privileged, right? We've all struggled through different sorts of, what do you say, exclusions to come where we are today, and we are in a position of privilege.

And I see from the kind of person that you are, Sabiana, I think a lot of women lack that confidence and that clarity and the courage to be able to work to their potential. And I think you have been singularly very focused on that part and you've been, no, I wouldn't say nobody is blessed with that courage, I think you've given yourself that courage, right?

And you've spoken about the impact in the workplace. Are there any specific incidences, you don't have to name your employers, but are there some specific incidences that you can of think of where clearly, you know, the current people in power do not want you to step up or take your rightful position? Have you experienced that?

Sabiana: Yeah. Because the organisations that I've worked with in the past were more male, less female. So I feel it was more male, but it's not that you don't find it with women as well. But coming to your question about whether I felt like that, yes. Particularly in one organisation, which was a very male-dominated industry.

I came in, in a leadership role and, like I normally approach my career or my new job, I tend to understand the organisation, understand the colleagues that I need to work with. I need to get a buy-in, very important for me to get a buy-in from the people I work with, junior, senior, whoever.

So, when I was approaching them one-on-one because it was a male industry in particular—it was the telecom industry, probably you'll guess the organisation—they looked at me with zillions of question marks, so what are you going to come and do? What are you going to really tell us? But shift to another industry which had an equal number of men and women, and it was the same question marks on their faces, you know, I mean, how can you come and tell us what to do in an industry that you are not even remotely connected with? When you shift jobs, you shift industries, and you learn on the job. But I think what helped me overcome all that is one, of course, the belief in yourself to understand what you're there for, you have the conviction in the value that you bring to the organisation. And when you engage with these people, it is extremely important to get that surfaced in conversations.

For example, you understand your business, but I understand your business and how to run it, you understand my point. I think how you engage with people and the personality that you sometimes need to take on has to outshine your position at that point in time; it plays a very important role.

The second thing I did was, when I met them one-on-one, of course, I got this pushback. So then I changed strategy and said, okay, fine, get them all into one room. I realised people are far more fierce and wear their bully caps when you are engaging with them one-on-one. They mellow down when you put them all in one room. So that was my strategy, and I said, okay, and I acknowledged all the input that I got. So again, my learnings were, focus on the positives, ignore the negatives, don't give it too much importance. When they were all in one room, acknowledged all the help and all the support, and ignore the hard time they gave me.

The point I'm trying to make Sudha, is it's never a straight-jacketed approach. You've got to learn on the job, you need to work around, and it's never a customised approach, right? Some industries work very, very differently. But I think it is how quick you are in identifying those loopholes and how quickly you work around them. It's not easy, but it's not impossible.

Sudha: There are two things that come to my mind because I know you. One is that we are also from that generation where we believe that we almost work in our workplaces as if we are owners and not as workers. The second thing is what you said very clearly is that when you move into an industry at a certain level, you are taking your learnings, and you can re-engineer your skills to any industry because you have leadership skills. And the third thing is that you have to be able to adapt very quickly, think on your feet, adapt, and understand the environment rather than just being like straight-jacketed, like you said.

I spent a large part of my forties in India, coming back to India to work. And I thought when I was in my forties, I thought, okay, I'm really old now, but I began to enjoy it a lot, the forties, and it is definitely a function of having all of you around me that helped me to really enjoy that. But I believe that the forties are really a brilliant decade for women to be in. You suddenly discover, you can speak actually, you can say no, you can do this, you can do that. And the fifties, of course, were dramatically different for me; they've been dramatically different.

So how have the fifties treated you and has it been very different from your forties? Are you thinking about things differently? And how are you as an individual, you know, so your personal, professional...

Sabiana: Of course, it is radically different, Sudha. When I was 40, I was 10 years less in experience, 10 years younger. Now I'm 10 years more intelligent. I have 10 years more exposure, more experience.

So, of course, it is very, very different. But the way I look at it is that 40 is when I would say my journey as a senior professional began. Before that, I was just a junior, learning, grasping, trying to support a team and all of that. But at 40, I suddenly felt this responsibility of teaching, of helping my team grow, sharing all my experiences and all my learnings with them. And that satisfaction that you get is immense.

So for me, my journey at 40 was fantastic because here now, you know, is this excitement of, okay, now I have so many more people I'm responsible for. I need to look at numbers, I need to look at growth, I need to make sure I'm contributing to the growth of the organisation and also take the brickbats, right?

At 50, you feel you've achieved because it's been 10 years, it's been a whole decade and that you've achieved a lot, and then you've been there, done that, and now suddenly you want to start a new chapter altogether. And I think that's where I am currently. At 50, actually, Sudha, I moved from a profession which was the only thing I knew, which is communications. And at 50, I joined a law firm. The only time I worked with lawyers was, you know, working with the GC at a crisis or when there was some key message that one needed to give out.

And here at 50, I joined a firm where they were expecting me to run the operations of the firm. For me, it was exciting; it was scary. I had to use all the experience that I had, the learnings, and at the same time, I had to also tell myself to unlearn and relearn. And I do that all the time, even till today. I'm 57, but I do that all the time because things are never static; things keep changing, they keep evolving. I mean, my ideas would have been so great once upon a time, could be totally obsolete today. So, my thing is unlearn, relearn, unlearn, relearn.

So, my journey keeps going on, and the reason I enjoy my journey is because I keep innovating and innovating myself in a new environment because the environment is never the same. I'm 40, then 50, now I'll be 60—the environment changes. If I do not evolve, if I do not bring in new ways of working and adapting, it's not going to work for me. So I hope I've answered your question, Sudha.

Sudha: Yes, you definitely have. I think it was a big challenge that you undertook when you decided to become the COO at Trilegal, which is the third-largest law firm in India. And that's been an amazing journey you have the experience, the knowledge, the intent, and the energyI’d say you’re one of the most energetic people that I know in this world, one of the most hardworking and energetic people that I know.

I totally agree that you have to not just bring all of that learning and experience. You have to learn constantly and evolve.

So, let's talk about your entrepreneurial journey. I think a lot of us jumped on that wagon during COVID and post-COVID. Tell us a bit more about your entrepreneurial journey. What prompted you to embark on this journey? Because you were doing very well. I don’t know whether it was something that you’d been thinking about for long and then took the jump, or it was one fine day you decided, “Oh, enough, now I need to do this for myself.”

Sabiana: It was not thoughtful at all. So, it happened—like I told you, the mystical year of 2021—I got an opportunity to work for a firm in Noida. I live in Gurgaon, so I had to travel from Gurgaon to Delhi to Noida. As long as it was locked down, it was fine. I am a person who likes working in an office. I'm a very people-oriented person. I like interacting; I like the chaos of the office, and I can't work from home. So I used to go to the office. There were hardly anybody in the office during that time because, you know, we had the flexibility of working from home. But given that I had just joined this organisation, I wanted to learn and understand the culture of the organisation, which is extremely important for my success, so I did. But unfortunately, what happened was when the lockdown was lifted, I realised I was spending way too much time in travel. And you know me better than anybody, Sudha; I'm a very impatient person. Very, very impatient. If I don't see the time that I have put to good use, I start getting the heebie-jeebies. And I just felt, you know, that time in the car from here to there, two hours, sometimes two and a half hours one way, therefore five hours a day, it was a waste of time.

And that gave me the reason to say, no, I can't do this anymore. But I didn't take too much time because I knew by then I'd been there, done that. I was 56 and something, and I said, let me start something on my own. And what I did was, of course, spoke to a lot of people. People who had only good wishes for me from a professional point of view. I started speaking to them and said, you know, this is where I am currently, and I don't know what to do. Spoke to a lot of people, got a lot of ideas, and then I sat on my own and I said, this is what I want to do. And I went on to creating Curate.

So, Curate is a...

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In the past couple of years, there have been a lot of discussions, debates, articles around how PR practitioners can combat misinformation. It is often cited as one of the bigger challenges along with AI (advanced technology) facing the PR industry.

The Elephant in the Room is the role of PR professionals in the dissemination and amplification of misinformation and fake news. How complicit are we as an industry when propagating the agenda of businesses, individuals, and governments?

Beyond the industry a lot of people ascribe ‘spin’ a pejorative term to the work being done by professionals. So, what’s the truth? To discuss this and more I spoke with Prof Lee Edwards, from the Department of Media and Communications at the LSE. Considering that the title of her 2020 research paper was, ‘Organised lying and professional legitimacy: public relations’ accountability in the disinformation debate’, she has an in-depth understanding of the subject.

In this episode of The Elephant in the Room, we spoke about role of PR in society; the misinformation debate; disposable diversity; ethics of climate communications, AI, ethics in general, and more……..

Thank you Stephen Waddington for the introductions, this fine conversation would not have been possible without your initiative.

Interested in learning more, head to the podcast (Link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Hey, Lee Good morning. Wonderful to have you as a guest today on the podcast.

Lee: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me, Sudha. I hope you're well.

Sudha: So, let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do. I'm really grateful to Stephen for the introductions that he made over email, but I'm keen to know more because I haven't really met with you.

Lee: Yeah, so my name is Lee. I'm a professor of strategic communications and public engagement at the London School of Economics and Political Science, and I've been there about seven years. Prior to that, I was at the University of Leeds, Manchester, and Leeds Beckett originally. My research area is focused on strategic communications, particularly public relations. That's the area I look at most. More recently, it has expanded into the area of public engagement and also media literacy, which ended up being quite nicely related to the type of work that I do.

I originally started in practice. I did about eight years working for the technology industries as a PR consultant. Like most PR practitioners I know, I kind of fell into it with no particular ambition to do PR, but just ended up there. I originally started in New Zealand, then I came back to London. I was mystified by the apparent power that Tony Blair's communications director, Alastair Campbell, had and how much he was hated because he was the proverbial spin doctor. I was working in the profession and didn't really feel like I was powerful at all.

So that led me to do a PhD focused on understanding how power works through public relations and in public relations as a profession. The rest is history, really. I've been working in academia now for just over 20 years and really love it.

Sudha: Wow, that's interesting. And I think that we should have another podcast episode, probably on your PhD, because like you, I'd agree that, yeah, we don't always feel very powerful as communications professionals. In fact, rather disempowered and often isolated, including with clients and within organisations.

Let's move on to the next question. We live in such divisive and polarised times. What do you think is the role of PR in society? We are so set in our views; we all think the choices or the sides that we take are the correct sides to be supported and advocated for.

We've seen, day before yesterday, the attempt on the presidential candidate in the US. All this is a result of the churn happening in society, the conflicts and the unease there. And, of course, communications professionals have a huge role, I believe, to play. We don't often get that opportunity. But between strategic advisors to the C-suite and spin doctors, which most people like to think of PR practitioners as, is there a happy medium between the two? A space that we can occupy with authenticity?

Lee: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting question. There are perhaps two answers to it in the sense that I think currently there's the role that public relations as a profession and practitioners occupy, and there's the potential role that they could play. Currently, I think we oscillate between those two roles of strategic advice and spin doctor.

The strategic advice role is the one that has the most promise, in the sense that it's a role that is more reflective and considered as a contribution to the organisation. It doesn’t just take the organisation for granted and follow what the organisation says. It’s much more of a kind of critical friend type role. And I think that's got to be positive because organisations can become very self-oriented and absorbed with their own purposes. That’s just the nature of the beast. But public relations practitioners have this bridging role that is very valuable. The strategic advisory capacity is important for helping organisations understand the nature of the society they exist in.

The spin doctor role, I think, is what happens when practitioners don’t or aren’t able to take on that more strategic approach. To some degree, that's a question of organisational culture, the degree to which organisational leaders are able or willing to listen, and perhaps also the degree to which comms practitioners are able to make themselves relevant. There’s a challenge there, because if you end up being the spin doctor, you end up simply parroting what the organisation thinks is important, and that’s not necessarily what society needs. So I think that’s what currently happens.

There’s a lot of debate within the profession about the pros and cons of both roles and the desire to be seen as more strategic. I think there is also a much bigger role for communications professionals, particularly public relations professionals, because they are different from advertisers, branders, and marketers. They are more focused on dialogue, discussion, and engaging with audiences. There’s a lot of talk, for example, about relationship building and engaging in conversations. That gives the profession a platform to influence society and the way social dynamics unfold.

For instance, with the shooting of the presidential candidate at the weekend, the ways in which the communications profession responds should also reflect on how they might make interventions as a profession, not on behalf of their clients but as a profession. They should discuss how and why such events might happen, what rhetoric underpins them, and how one might change it and make concrete moves in that direction. They have a lot of influence; these are people who work with some of the biggest companies in the world and with some of the largest media conglomerates. I would like to see a more socially oriented professional identity than we have at the moment. I think that could have a really significant impact on the way people talk about division and debate.

Sudha: I think that's a very interesting perspective, Lee. And I also think, how we contribute to the discourse, whether we contribute just on when you know, strictly has a problem or there's some reality TV show or we are participating in issues that really make a difference to people and to society. I think, we need to definitely consider that.

Moving on from this, we're talking about the U. S. and of course the U. S. has been so prominent in the past couple of decades, not just because of its power, but, what has been happening in politics. So the 2016 U. S. elections, were a time when we saw a lot of fake news or biased news and it brought misinformation to the spotlight.

And there was a spotlight on the role of lobbyists, PR practitioners, foreign actors to build a particular narrative. It’s been eight years since that spotlight. Has there been any change in behaviour or is it more of the same? Because I noticed that, as practitioners, as an industry, we love to talk about things, but I don't think, we really address some of the issues root and branch and try to make a systemic change. What are your thoughts on this?

Lee:I think the reality is that the volume of misinformation that became very visible in 2016 is now normalised. I think that’s probably the case. It was interesting how little it was discussed in the UK election, for example. I’m not sure about the election in India—there have been so many elections—but I was struck by the fact that occasionally it was covered as an issue but not really picked up, and there was no significant monitoring of it as far as I could tell. Although I was away for some of the election time, so it may have happened in my absence.

I think the reality is that we now assume misinformation will circulate, so the focus has shifted from trying to stop the origin to helping people understand what is true and what isn’t, particularly online. I wrote a piece a few years ago that argued that misinformation has also been part of the communications profession for many years. People in organisations or organisations themselves have always framed certain issues in ways that favour their own positions—climate change, tobacco, the chemical industries, for example. This is not new. And so, I don’t think the profession is innocent in this mix.

There was a really good study done by Jason companions and Jonathan on disinformation in the Philippines, where the people producing the disinformation in the context of an election campaign were people from the advertising industry who were working a second job at night producing this material. The skills and techniques our professions use in a legitimate way can also be used illegitimately and are used illegitimately. There’s a responsibility to acknowledge that and work towards changing it.

In terms of whether misinformation will ever stop, I don’t think so. Bad actors, as you say, will always be around. To some degree, the question of how to tackle it involves individual education, media literacy, for example, making sure people can spot disinformation. But I think this goes back to the previous points about the social norm. We now expect misinformation to some extent. We don’t have to accept that as our social norm. So, I think we need to ask ourselves what we are willing to accept in society and what we would like to see minimised. Communications professionals can certainly be part of that debate.

Sudha: I agree with parts of what you say. We’re now in a world where the more important aspect is not just that misinformation exists but how to spot what is true and how to filter out truth from lies or bias from unbiased information. For example, during the Indian election, India is a hugely polarised country, and the media has been polarised for the longest time. People generally know who speaks for whom and then make their decisions based on that.

Similarly, in the US or UK, people believe that media has certain leanings. If you are a left-leaning person, you might read The Guardian, while if you're a right-leaning person, you'll read something else. And that’s similar in India. But in terms of professionals and how we contribute to the news circulating, there perhaps needs to be more open conversations about what is acceptable, what level is acceptable, and how far we are going to allow our practitioners to operate in those areas.

Lee: I mean, these are ultimately questions of the ethics of the profession. And it’s not that people don’t talk about them, but I think, you know, professional associations and practitioners do talk about them. And there are areas where some really fantastic work has been done around inequalities, for example, gendered inequalities, racialised inequalities, where campaigns have pushed the forefront claims for recognition that might not otherwise have been taken up because brands are very powerful, because, you know, large conglomerates are very powerful.

They have some clout, not just for their customers but also for political actors, I think. So there’s power within that kind of market-based context or the overlap between markets and politics for practitioners to do something. But there is also, I think, as you say, this kind of reflexivity or, you know, self-questioning to ask exactly that question of how we limit our negative impact in this kind of space.

And to do that, you have to accept that there is a negative impact. Yeah, and I think that’s difficult for professions to accept because professions of all kinds, you know, their reputation and their legitimacy are built on doing good in society. That’s a big part of the profession. And so, being really overt about the fact that that’s not always the case is a difficult thing, I think.

Sudha: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. The industry, of course, is a microcosm of society. How does that impact our ability to fulfil our roles in a responsible manner? Because, you know, the makeup of the industry does not reflect our society, essentially.

And we don’t need to speak about statistics in general. So, are diversity and inclusion conversations in the industry today an imperative or a distraction? And I am asking you this question from having been on the PRCA Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council for three years. I think there are startups and newer agencies that are very interested in engaging, and the bigger agencies who don’t give a— I don’t want to use the word, but don’t give a damn.

So, what would you say? Do these people look at it as an imperative or a distraction? Because change is not going to happen unless the big players in the industry decide to put their weight behind any change that is required.

Lee: Yeah, well, I think you put your finger on the pulse there when you say, nominally, we should be a microcosm of society, but there’s no way the profession can ever describe itself as such for a range of reasons, in particular racialised and class inequality. I think this is a huge issue, and, you know, multiple surveys have identified that.

So, PRCA in the UK, CIPR in the UK, and a bit to a slightly lesser extent in the U.S., I think. There is a business case for diversity. The business case for diversity tends to revolve around the narrative of the more diverse you are, the more innovative you can be, the more ideas there are around the table, the more productive you can be, you’ll get the extra leadership, people will be more inclusive, etc.

And I was looking at the recent survey that’s been issued across 12 different professions, I think, that the CIPR contributed to. And that survey, which has just been issued in the UK in 2024, talks about this business case and cites various statistics. So, there is a business case for diversity, but diversity is complicated.

And it’s not without risk. If you want to be really honest about the need to be more diverse, and practitioners from marginalised groups say this every time they are asked, and they are asked a lot about their experiences. It can’t be just a tick box, it can’t be just the word, because really to understand the impact of a lack of diversity, you have to engage with some difficult questions about the really frustrating and miserable experiences that people sometimes have in their professional lives.

And you have to acknowledge that that is because of the nature of the organisations that have been built. And so that opens up difficult conversations that require mutual respect between the people who are marginalised and the people who are in charge, and that also require organisations to put aside their own self-interest in the sense that they can’t only ever manage the value of diversity by assessing whether or not it’s going to be profitable, or whether or not it’s going to get them more votes, or whether or not it’s going to get them more supporters for their charity.

It can’t only be about that. There has to also be a moral question of whether we want people in our organisation who are marginalised from the day they walk in, to the day they walk out, or feel that way, you know, enough on a regular basis for it to be a characteristic of their professional life with us.

And whether we want an organisation that also creates barriers for people who are marginalised to even get in, in the first place. Is that a moral position that we want to take? Because it is a moral position that one takes if one doesn’t do anything about it. It’s an ethical and moral position that is actively taken by doing nothing.

So, I think, from my perspective, with all the claims that organisations make about being responsible actors in society, I think it is a must-have. Because you can’t make those claims when you are, you know, then conducting your day-to-day engagement with your employees very differently.

And then the business case also is important. I think my challenge with the business case has always been that you can achieve the same outcomes without having to engage with diversity. And when diversity requires you to do difficult things, if you’re doing it properly, then it’s much easier not to engage with diversity and to achieve those profits and those changes in other ways, and I think that’s the problem with the business case for diversity. It doesn’t make diversity compulsory. It just makes it kind of attractive as one of the set of options that you might have. So, I think that means it’s always weaker, really, as an imperative.

I think the moral imperative is stronger.

Sudha: Yeah. I mean, I'm really glad to hear that because I think it’s quite frustrating to hear about the business imperative and the business case because. I mean, DEI has been around for a long time, especially if you look at the U.Sthey’ve been doing this for decades, and they’re still making a business case, and the business case has not really propelled too much action.

I mean, we’re like 30 years or 40 years into it, and things should have...

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Most people would agree that sustainability is a much-abused word. It has become a catch call phrase for individuals and businesses keen on asserting their ‘good for society/good for planet credentials’. As we hurtle towards 2030, the reality is that the private sector has a pivotal role to play in helping to meet the SDGs. Cynicism aside, behind the rhetoric and noise, there is serious effort by some businesses to integrate it into their business strategy.

A couple of weeks back, I spoke with Chris Argent, Head of Sustainability for AMEA at Syngenta (A leader in agricultural innovation) to understand the role of the private sector in global food security (SDG 2), on innovations that can catalyse change and help improve the lives and livelihoods of farmers (especially marginal farmers).

According to the World Economic Forum, ‘the global food security challenge is straightforward: by 2050 the world must feed two billion people more and the demand for food will be 56% greater than 2010.’ The sector also accounts for a whopping 30% of greenhouse gas emissions and 70% of freshwater withdrawals, so there is also the need for adoption of innovative practices to be more sustainable.

We tried to cover some of the key issues facing the sector in the context of sustainable development during our conversation 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 The link between purpose, profit and sustainability

👉🏾 How organisations can be authentic when speaking about purpose or sustainability

👉🏾 What it means to be a leader in agricultural innovation for Syngenta?

👉🏾 The impact of climate change on small and marginal farmers who make up majority of the world’s farmers and produce over 70-80% of the world’s food (UN FAO 2021)

👉🏾 The ‘Good Growth Plan’ (Indian context) a time bound target to reduce its carbon intensity by 50% by 2030 from a 2016 baseline

👉🏾 The Portfolio Sustainability Framework aimed at increasing transparency to external stakeholders

👉🏾 Changing food preferences and growing trend for sustainably grown food

We also spoke about sustainability narratives, reporting, communications and much more.

Global non-profit EAT, “Food is the single strongest lever to optimize human health and environmental sustainability on Earth”

To hear more, head to the podcast (Link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Chris. It's wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room Podcast today. Thank you for being here.

Chris: Thanks very much Sudha for inviting me to join. Looking forward to the discussion.

Sudha: Brilliant. Let's start with a quick introduction. So, you've moved from politics to external affairs and then sustainability. How has the journey been?

Chris: That's a great question. Things have certainly evolved in terms of sustainability over that period. As you mentioned, I started my career in Australian politics working in various roles for about seven years before moving to the private sector. And certainly, in that early days of sustainability, it certainly wasn't high on corporate's agenda. But over that time it has very much come to the fore, which I think is great for the community, for business and also for the environment.

It really started with the development of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and it's certainly progressed from there.

Sudha: Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like a very interesting journey, and I'm sure there have been lots of learnings that you can now use in your current role.

So, I listened to a podcast where you spoke about purpose, profit and sustainability. This is something I'm very passionate about. my consultancy is called The Purpose Room. Both purpose and sustainability have become sort of buzzwords for organisations keen to show their commitment to a bigger, cause to a bigger purpose. So how can organisations show up, authentically when they speak about purpose or sustainability without somebody groaning on the sidelines?

Chris: Yeah, thanks for the question. I think authenticity is the key word that you just mentioned there Sudha. I think sustainability and sustainable operations throughout the business world and beyond are critically important to some of the key issues that we face as a community at the moment. And certainly, two that very important to Syngenta, which as I'm sure your listeners would know, is one of the biggest agribusiness companies in the world, where we sell seeds and crop protection products to farmers. And so, food security and climate change are two incredibly important big issues that the world faces, and that certainly not only impacts our industry, we believe that we can be part of a very complex solution to these issues and so authenticity is critical.

And I think we've all heard of many companies falling foul of accusations of greenwashing and certainly I think many companies perhaps were keen to demonstrate that they were doing something in the purpose space.

But I think critically, and this is fundamental to sustainability at Syngenta, it can't be separate from your business strategy. Sustainability needs to be part of the business strategy. If it's business and sustainability, I think it can be seen as an add on or an afterthought or even a cost rather than an investment.

And the private sector has a critical role to play in these big issues. And so that's where, I guess, where purpose meets profit, is to me the foundation of where the answer may lie. Private businesses are in service to their consumers and shareholders, but also increasingly consumers and shareholders expect the private sector to be in service of something bigger, and that's where the purpose comes in.

But if it's not profitable, if we can't find that sweet spot between purpose and profit, it becomes outside that that private sector space. And I think if we can find those areas where profit meets purpose in a meaningful way, that's how we can really drive the agenda forward and drive change. And I think it starts with being part of the business strategy, which is the approach that we take at Syngenta.

Sudha: Very well-articulated there and what is interesting that you're saying is it should not be an add on because so far it has been an add on for businesses. I think for decades it's been like yeah, you do some philanthropy and CSR and that's something that you're doing just a bit on the side. I think companies are definitely finding it difficult to, like you said, to make it an essential part of the business.

So, your boiler plate reads Syngenta Crop Protection is a leader in agricultural innovation. What does leader mean? Leadership has been redefined so many times in the past couple of years, I'd say. What are your aspirations as a leader for Syngenta? Is it size, scale, innovation or purpose?

Chris: Yeah, sitting on the fence, Sudha, I think it's part of all of those things and certainly going back to the point I made before about the importance of profitability in the broader scheme of the pursuit of purpose. So certainly, we seek to be a leader in the industry and I think that leaves us best placed to help farmers with the challenges of growing more food, with less impact on the environment.

I mean, that's a critical important challenge that I mentioned before. So, there's all that leadership in terms of how we listen to farmers. I mean, farmers being at the centre of everything we do, how do we understand the challenges that they're facing? And agriculture is tremendously diverse and if I think about the region that I'm responsible for Asia, Middle East and Africa, we have large scale industrial farming, and then we have a lot of smallholder farmers who trying to make a living and support themselves and their community with one hectare or less of, land to farm on.

There's lots of different challenges across that region. But I think finding a common way to understand what farmers are looking for in terms of solutions to their problem is one approach we take. So, there's that leadership. There's leadership in terms of innovation, which in terms of buzzword Sudha is another one that I would contend is thrown around a lot at the moment.

And innovation can mean a lot, it can mean technological innovation and certainly from our product development approach, that's a big part of what we mean by innovation. But it's also about innovative ways to deal with what is very complex in terms of food security and climate change, and the role that agriculture plays in that.

And so how can we be innovative in the solutions that we provide, not just from a product perspective, but also through partnerships with broader solutions for some of these issues. If you look at the emissions contribution of agriculture, products themselves play some part in helping to minimize that, but it's more about on farm practices, innovative ways to drive change at the farm level.

And that can be, complicated purely and simply because going back to the profit and purpose thing we talked about before, we need to find ways to make sustainable agriculture, not just sustainable, but also the best and most profitable form of agriculture, again, to drive that change at scale.

I think we are making some progress there, but we can't do that alone, so long way to answer your question, but in terms of a leader I think trying to take the initiative across all these various things that can drive the change that's required in this industry, but also keeping farmers at the centre of how we approach this. And last thing I would say too, is being a leading workplace in terms of how we encourage diversity inclusion, how we encourage people to speak up and have their say about issues that they are passionate about to drive that ongoing improvement.

And I know that a number of the country teams in my part of the world have been recognized as leading employers in that space, which I think is a part of the entire puzzle for Syngenta.

Sudha: Yeah, leadership is not just about one thing, it is about various pieces that all come together to make a company a leader. We've covered some of the stuff around, drivers for sustainability when we were talking about purpose and profit. So, we move to the next question on the ‘good growth plan’ that is linked to your sustainability efforts.

I understand it is particularly relevant to India. Could you share a bit more about it?

Chris: Yeah, the good growth plans been in place for more than 10 years now, and I think it was certainly back to that leadership point. It was taking a step forward for the industry in terms of really defining and quantifying the steps that we thought Syngenta could take as a company to pursue sustainability as part of the business.

And it certainly evolved and was updated about three years ago with some new targets to, acknowledge that things have progressed. And so that was really the aspiration for all of our country operations. And it covered things that are still important to us in terms of the importance of soil health, the importance of safe use training for all farmers that we can get in contact with about how to use products in the best and most sustainable way to protect themselves, of course, but also to get the most out of those products. And certainly, India is a really important market for Syngenta and certainly a country where agriculture is such a huge part of the economy and social fabric of that country.

Finding ways to use that foundation to drive sustainable agricultural outcomes was certainly a big ambition of the India team. And I think they've done and continue to do a great job. Just focusing on a couple of examples of that, as I mentioned before, soil health. I mean, if you think about sustainability and agriculture, it really all starts with how we take care of the soil to ensure that it can continue to be fertile and provide that foundation for crops for as long as we possibly can. And there's a big awareness part in relation to this, I think everyone intuitively understands that the health of the soil is critical, but what exactly about the soil?

How can we understand what the baseline is and what approaches can be taken to improve that. And some simple things, but very effective that we did in India is in relation to soil health testing and providing those tests to farmers, particularly in relation to rice growing. And then providing recommendations in partnership with the university about how to apply the right amount of fertilizer at the right time to ensure that the soil health was being protected and that yields would also benefit.

And this had fairly swift, but also impressive results in terms of yield, and of course, yield is linked to livelihood. If a farmer can apply less in terms of inputs, get more in terms of yield, and also the quality improvements, then that leads to higher prices for farmers. And so, these are some of the examples of the Good Growth Plan in India.

One last thing I'd say about the Good Growth Plan is we've now recently launched for the first time Syngenta Group's Global Sustainability Priorities and that builds on the foundation of the Good Growth Plan and really focuses on the key issues of higher yields with lower impact, and that means environmental as well as protecting the safety of the farmers, regenerate soil and nature improving rural prosperity, which is very important when you consider agriculture because agriculture is often really a foundational part of prosperity in rural communities throughout the world.

And lastly, about our own sustainable operations, really ensuring that we have a focus on reducing our own footprint in terms of emissions, as well as how we can move that forward. So good growth plan was the foundation, the sustainability priorities that were released in April this year build upon that.

And I think really sets us up to hopefully in partnership, drive further change for farmers, for food security and for the environment.

Sudha: All very essential pieces if you are to consider that the farming community, rural farmers make a huge chunk of the Indian population and they contribute to the GDP, but their own prosperity is also linked to all of this. And it is essential for them if we as a country are to grow at a certain rate that the small farmers are able to be prosperous and all of it is so interlinked.

So interesting to hear all of this.Moving on all conversations around sustainability start with climate change and global warming. Should the starting point not just be people and the challenges they face. Because we're speaking about ‘just transition’, but just transition starts with thinking about where the planet is going and where we are going to be 10 years later in 2030 or 2050.

Why don't we start with people and the challenges that they are facing. What are your thoughts on this?

Chris: Yeah, it's a really interesting point and I think we need to do both. But I would certainly agree that focusing on the challenges for people, because it's people at the end of the day that drive action and drive change.

But if I think about the urgency of the change in terms of food security and climate change, as I mentioned, having that broader topic set at that global agenda can really help to encourage that action. Because I think also if we focus too much on the bigger picture, maybe it gets a little paralyzing too, because, it is enormous, it is critical and it is urgent. And so it's important that, that is setting the scene for action. But then we focus on how people can drive change. And as I mentioned before, that's why it's certainly at Syngenta having the farmer at the centre of everything, because without the input of farmers, without the enrolment of farmers, it's almost impossible to drive change.

And so that's why that's such a big focus for the company because without that action at the farm level then those broader topics and concerns are going to be even harder to have an impact on, so that's also where it becomes, again, complicated. I know I'm highlighting some complications, but we are talking about very complex things here and trying to simplify it can be beneficial.

Why should, let's be very frank, why should an individual farmer who's done things a certain way for a certain period of time and had pretty good results change unless there is a personal motive for change beyond that bigger picture. Because again, particularly in Asia and Africa, we are talking about smallholders and so change is risky. And the impacts of that going wrong can be very detrimental in terms of their own food security and their own livelihoods. So, we need to find a way of finding value and I mean, value in the broadest sense of that word, not just financial value, but sure, that's important. But what can we do to demonstrate the value for change to happen?

And it comes down at the heart of your question, Sudha, it comes down to people and how we can together build a change that can have the impact we need.

Sudha: Yeah, so the farmers have to be motivated to actually come on board. And I don't think there's too much that is required other than engagement and a little bit of awareness.

And definitely because of food security and their own personal security livelihoods, they are more likely to be on board.

Chris: Yeah, but also when you're talking about 450 million smallholders in Asia and Africa that's a lot of people. And it takes a huge amount of resources to be able to interact with all of them and a company, even a small company of our size is unable to have that direct contact with such a large number of farmers.It's also finding progressive farmers who want to try something new and can drive change and then they can become the role model to really drive that change further beyond the resources of one company to interact with every...

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Kavneet Dasra Shownotes:

In my second innings I have been intentional about working with the third sector. Through The Elephant in the Room, I am able to engage vicariously with the sector without being a part of it. To some extent I have been able deepen my understanding and engagement with the sector through PRADAN where I truly believe there is an alignment between my passion and their purpose. However, truth be told the sector is cliquey and closed like most sectors/industries the world over. A bit jarring considering they exist to make society more equitable and inclusive, to provide support to the most excluded.

In the Indian sub-continent where I have spent a lot of my time it is no different. A cursory look at leadership, boards and composition of teams can be revelatory. That they mirror society, and all its inequalities is a bit alarming? Is it possible for them to continue to work with the excluded and marginalised, and be effective in their current avatar? What does it mean for the sustainability of the social sector short term and long term?

To learn about what the sector is doing to change, I reached out to Dasra one of India’s most respected and leading third sector organisation. Dasra evolved from being a philanthropy fund to a bridge between NGOs and funders. On their website they state that, ‘Equity is at the centre of everything we do’. To kickstart my conversations with the sector I spoke with Kavneet Sahni, who anchors internal DEI efforts, spear heads the GEDI (Gender, Equity, Diversity & Inclusion) initiative at Dasra and leads on their Social Impact Program. GEDI is a lens that not only guides Dasra’s internal inclusion strategy but also informs their funding and grant making strategy. For the uninitiated GEDI is commonly used amongst multilateral organisations including ILO, IRC, UN to frame conversations on diversity and inclusion.

In this freewheeling episode Kavneet and I spoke about her background, move to the third sector, faith, privilege, GEDI, the drivers for change in the social sector, representation, war for talent, barriers to change, best practice, inclusive campaigns and initiatives, successes and failures………

My one key takeaway, the road to inclusion is paved with failure and learning……..

To hear more, head to the podcast….

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good morning, Kavneet. It's wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today. Thank you for being here and making time.

Kavneet: Thank you, Sudha. It's a pleasure to be here and I'm so delighted that you actually are interested in learning a bit more about my journey and the work that we do at Dasra around diversity and inclusion. So, thank you for having me.

Sudha: Let’s start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Kavneet: So, I work as an Associate Director at Dasra and my role primarily is to design and implement capacity building programs for non-profits and other stakeholders in the sector. You may know this, but Dasra was formed on the basis that there is a lot of funding, a lot of focus that goes into supporting programs, on ground and very little focus on building stronger institutions like we often do in the corporate world. So, my role, my journey at Dasara has been, very old. I've spent close to 11 years at Dasara now and most of my time goes in building, designing programs, which will help nonprofit leaders, look through their own leadership journeys, become better leaders, but also strengthen their teams, their organisation.

In the last few years, with a lot of chatter happening on diversity and inclusion. I also have had the opportunity to dive a little bit deeper and understand. Beginning from who I am, what is my identity, how does that bring the privilege that I carry. And even at Dasara, I've had the opportunity to anchor some of the diversity and inclusion efforts.

So that's a little bit about me professionally. I'm a mother, I like to call that out, of a seven-year-old. He keeps me on my toes and kind of teaches me, new lessons every day, if I can put it out there.

Sudha: Amazing. So, like you said, you didn't start off in the social sector.

If you were not at Dasra, what would you be doing? Have you thought of it? Do you think about it sometime?

Kavneet: Yeah. I was at the crossroads and there was this dilemma back in 2013/14 when I joined Dasra. But on one side I had to pick this job at Dasra and the other side I had an offer from Johnson & Johnson. So, it was either the corporate world or the development sector. And I'll be honest, I did give it a thorough thought at that point of time because of course, if you enter the corporate world, you get a better salary, as a starting point, you have a lot of other incentives. There is a clear career path that you're moving ahead on. At the same time, I think my passion lies in the development space, and I really wanted to contribute my skills, my experience to the society and that's where I picked Dasra. But wherever I would have been, if not Dasra, Johnson & Johnson, any corporate job, I think I would still be doing the very same thing, engaging with stakeholders, working on diversity and inclusion, because my background was in human resources.

Sudha: That's so interesting. So, you are passion led and you knew very clearly where you want to go and how you want to use your skills. How important, Kavneet, is your identity to you? And what are the experiences that have shaped you and influenced the work that you do today? Because, we are also confused about our identities, like, who am I at the end of the day? Most of us tend to be identified by our designation and the place where we work.

Kavneet: That's such an interesting question, Sudha. And I see it in a way that there is a perception or there is a way in which the world identifies you. And then, there are certain things that you identify very closely with your own personality, with your work, with your personal family life.

And to the world, of course, I would say I have the privilege to be an able bodied woman, married women born in a upper class, upper middle class family, had the privilege of finishing a double masters and supported by my parents. So, I think I do acknowledge the privileges that I've had while growing up.

But at the same time, I also I always try to not negate the challenges that I have had, whether it is around, socioeconomic challenges of being in a family where I was the first girl to not get married at the age of 22. Where I was the girl who was like, I want to do a master's, but I don't want to do a BEd, which is apparently the best way for me to settle down in life and, in my career. Where I was the one who said, okay, if you don't want to, sponsor my MBA, I will take an education loan and I will go ahead and I'm ready to take the risk and the responsibility of the repercussions that come along.

So, I also had my own set of challenges, whether it was around seeing the financial difficulties, parents and me not getting on the same page around when to settle and what's best for me in my life. But I think what's always stayed with me are some values, that I identify myself with.

I am very into preachings of Guru Nanak Devji, and I follow Sikhism as a religion. But I think more than any of the gurus, any of the teachings, I'm very influenced by the teachings of Guru Nanak and he has spoken a lot about being kind to others, not discriminating, just believing in the oneness of God, but also the oneness of human beings. So, I think those are some of the values I really identify with and hold very closely to my heart.

Sudha: That's so good to hear gives a holistic view into who you are, your spirituality and faith that often, sort of grounds us and is our North Star and guides us in making decisions in life.

Tell us about your journey at Dasra internal, to DEI as strategic imperative, because I don't think for the social sector, it has been a big priority. What are the drivers? Why is it that the social sector really needs to sort of get started and get going very quickly on this journey?

Kavneet: Yeah. So, Dasra was formed in 1999, we've been in existence for 25 years. And I think some principles that have stayed at the very core of whatever programs we build, whatever path, new strategies that might have come along. We always want, and we always try to keep the communities, the vulnerable communities that we serve at the centre of everything we do.

So that has been like the core right from the beginning as to how can we think and how any program, any activity, anything that we do, any action taken at Dasara, how is it influencing these communities positively? I think that has been one of the very, I would say strategic drivers, for us to do what we do today in the field of D&I. And if you have to go back, D&I was not a buzzword either in the corporate or in the social sector. Back in 2008, Dasara was one of the leaders in the sector who said that we will pick on audiences or target groups or communities that nobody else is serving or focusing or highlighting.

So adolescent girls, for example, we started, with a few research reports that we did on adolescent girls, the condition of young women. Till date, we have like 25 plus research reports that we've published, focusing on girls, women in the sectors of education, nutrition, water and sanitation.

And it was in 2013 that we actually built the first collaborative that was focused on adolescence, specifically girls. So, in my mind, when I look at our journey around D& I, it's not new, it's something which is very inbuilt in our own strategy, in our own vision that we have for the organisation.

But I think it was back in 2019/20 where we were reflecting on where we are in terms of the organisation demographics. Is there enough representation of the different strata that India, kind of has? And that's when we realised that we are an organisation with 70 percent of women and an equal percentage around 67 percent of women also in the leadership positions in the organisation.

We decided that, let's move beyond just gender. Let's also look at, other aspects of diversity, whether it's caste, whether it's disability, gender and sexual orientation. We've, then kind of moved ourselves, not just looking at women, as one of the demographics, but also looking at other aspects that are so inbuilt in the society that we have.

And since then, we've done two demographic surveys, and we continue to do that once in two years so that it gives us a sense and a pulse check of, which are the underrepresented groups in the organisation. And so that our hiring and a recruitment strategy is focused on that.

But also, we try to dive deeper into understanding how are they voicing their feeling, are they able to bring their authentic selves to work or not? And these, pulse checks or employee surveys it kind of informs the vision for us on what next do we do on GEDI.

So, I think one thing which I just would like to highlight is that for us, it is a little bit around how can D&I be a lever for us to do what we do well. And there has been a lot of conversations with the leadership here where we've sat down for two days straight and just spoken about, do you think that as an organisation we need more diverse talent? How would it help us meeting our vision? How does that contribute to the goals that we have set for ourselves? Are we ready as an organisation to take this up? Are we ready to perhaps slow down our pace of work, perhaps open more ways of doing things, not just sticking to the ways that we might have been following for years at Dasra.

Sudha: So clearly externally you have looked at marginalized communities and internally when you have started doing that sense check on what the makeup of Dasra is like, you're looking again at excluded groups or communities and seeing how you can increase representation and of course belonging. But why is this a necessity today, is it just because Dasra believes that this is the way we should operate or are there bigger drivers or imperatives?

Kavneet: So, after the first demographic survey that we did, we were left with a few questions. And these were very, honest questions that we put out to the leadership and to the D&I committee, which said that what does D&I mean to us at Dasra? Why do we need to go on this path? We really have to move on this path or is it fine because Dasra as an organisation is doing fine and, will it be of a value add. Do you see it as a strategic lever?

And two things Sudha that came up very clearly for us, which has been pushing us to move ahead on this journey.

One, we ourselves, not just by the research that exists today and the data points that we have, but by our own experiences we realised, by having diverse perspectives, by having people who have different ways of solving things, we are able to innovate and are actually able to build programs that we would have not had built otherwise.

So, that was a learned lesson for us, and it was something that we weren't just saying because we read a research report say this, but we had five examples at Dasra where we saw this happen. And the second piece, I mean, India's social fabric is moving with a lot of layers of caste, class, gender, religion, and for us equity is the core belief, right?

It's like again, the centre of our work. And for us to bring any change, we have to solve for the structural inequities that exist in the society. And for that reason, if we have to make a change in the lives of the marginalised group, we need to start internally. We need to have them become part of the work that we're trying to do for them. So, it's a bit of like, it would be ironical if, we're saying, Oh, we want to break those inequities, but we don't start at home.

Sudha: So, I started the last question also speaking about the sector and the poor track record that it has on, DEI or equity inclusion representation.

One would assume that this would not be the case. Please, could you share your insights on what the barriers are for the social sector to be more inclusive? I mean, if you look at the statistics and if you look at just a couple of the big social sector organisations and you look at their leadership or their boards, they're clearly not representative, right?

And just having lots of women in an organisation doesn't mean anything. It doesn't show that you're inclusive or equitable unless everyone has a path to forge ahead in the organisation. What would you say are the barriers for this sector to moving in that direction. I think from my perspective, it is, they feel that they do a lot of stuff already because they are working externally with marginalized communities.

Kavneet: Yeah. I think a few things, right. One, I think first and foremost, we need to understand that the development sector is also part of what India's social fabric has right? So, it will definitely be a reflection of what is happening in India, the complexities, the challenges, the same social fabric who have these unconscious biases. Who have these you know ingrained understanding of the context or the society. So, we are all eventually part of the same social fabric and the challengesremain the same. But I think first and foremost, we also need to acknowledge and understand that the development sector is way behind in terms of the resources we have, the availability of resources we have as compared to any other sector.

The intent here of every organisation, every not-for-profit organisation is to not focus on profit, but it's to focus on bringing that change. Unfortunately, Indiacontinues to be way behind as compared to its, other countries like US and, UK, where philanthropy is way ahead on the journey and people are still giving a lot more as compared to India.

I think the resource crunch is a big factor, I feel, because if you have limited resources, it's logical that you will end up prioritizing, the programs on ground, you will look more external versus looking internal. And that comes to you only once you have reached a stage in the organisation journey where it's not a hand to mouth situation or you have, set the organisation on a path that you feel comfortable for the next five years on where the organisation is going.

I think the second thing is that, and funds is one, but also talent, right? There is not enough talent that's coming to the sector, and I have personally seen this change in the last five to seven years. Now, we get to see people who are picking social sector as a choice. And there are also a lot of myths and assumptions that, oh, you didn't get a job elsewhere, so you're joining, or you're a woman, that's why you just are picking this as a hobby.

So, there are still these stereotypes and assumptions that exist in our society which also act as a barrier for talent to come in. I think those two to me are, two of the very important things that we need to keep in mind. But apart from that, I think there is a lot of scope, and I will not, pull back on saying this, that we need to, in the sector, work more on the leadership commitment, that it has to be very clear role models. That women have to be seen and there has to be tracking and accountability, there has to be certain mechanisms, governance mechanisms in place that will hold the organisation accountable on, internal D&I aspects as well.

And thinking a little bit more of platforms, right now we do not have enough platforms where the underrepresented groups can connect with each other, can actually gain perspectives from each other and build the confidence in their own abilities. I think women, for example, I remember when I go back, when I started my career, every, every, every review I used to be told, you need be assertive, you need believe in yourself. And I agreed because, as women we're taught to not contribute to a decision that is being made at home. We're not, we're just told this is the...

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Shownotes

Nelson Mandela famously said, “Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire. It has the power to unite people in a way that little else does”. There are examples the world over whether it is Cricket, Football, Athletics, Tennis ……. It brings together fans and inspires current and future generations. However, like the rest of our society and business racism and exclusion is rife in sports. The good news is that there has been a concerted effort by sportspersons, sports bodies, regulators address systemic issues in the past couple of years.

Recently, I had a wonderful opportunity to engage with Jatin Patel, to learn more about what is being done by Rugby England to bring about change. We spoke at length about the four areas of focus including i) embedding inclusion in the life cycle of employees in the org; ii) gameplay; iii) game leadership and iv) fan, followers and partners. A huge and challenging remit by any standards.

We spoke about the importance of data for building a business case in organisations; his thoughts on whether DEIB/A is really slowing down/stalling; Social mobility as one of the biggest challenges facing English Rugby; Racism at the institutional level and steps being taken to tackle the behaviour of fans and influencers; Role models; accountability and much more…….

Like to learn more, head to the links in the comments 👇🏾👇🏾

“Ultimately being in this job is about influencing. And I think a lot of leaders have realised that EDI leaders are influencers, they use knowledge and expertise and data to drive suggested ways of change, but they understand they can't do it themselves.

And I think it's that layer below where people do need more help because perhaps they've been more stretched that we need to close that gap of understanding that EDI practitioners are not there to do the job, they're there to help you and enable you to do the job, to be more inclusive, and therefore see diversity foster and succeed as a result of it.” Jatin Patel

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Jatin. Thank you for being a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Jatin: My pleasure. And good morning to you Sudha good to see you.

Sudha: Good evening, actually.

Jatin: Oh, good evening. Of course, it's evening. I knew that. Good evening Sudha. Good to see you.

Sudha: Okay, so let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Jatin: Sure. So I'm Jatin Patel and I'm the Inclusion and Diversity Director at the RFU, which is the England Rugby Football Union. Been in post now just over two years and in terms of what I do, I think the simplest way of describing the way I do my role is across kind of four critical pillars.

We look at how we can build a more inclusive and diverse approach to employees on board. So the organisation, I describe that typically as your very quintessential I&D role. So everything in relation to the employee life cycle from attraction, approaches to recruitment to progression and retention of staff. And ensuring the journey for everyone is equitable, but also that we are constantly looking to diversify our staff body.

The second pillar is gameplay. So for rugby and for me, that means everything from grassroots community rugby, all the way through to the top of our senior squads, both men and women and the pathways that sit in between them. So trying to get more people playing the game understanding the experiences they're having from an inclusivity perspective and making sure that we can make them as welcoming and positive as possible. But it's not just players, it's also match officials we need more referees and there is a lot of talk about the impact on referees in rugby in particular at the moment. And also coaches. We need coaches from all different backgrounds to not only role model inclusive behaviours, but also inspire the next generation of talent from different backgrounds, becoming coaches. So that's gameplay.

The third pillar is game leadership. So we are a governing body. We have constituency bodies based around the country, pretty much reflecting different geographies. We also have a council, which is our chief decision making body, and ultimately is trying to build more inclusivity into the way they make decisions, the way they approach their respective leadership roles. But also diversify the talent pipelines behind them, so more people from different groups and backgrounds are able to become leaders themselves within the game.

And then the fourth one is fans, followers and partners. So I try to describe that as who are our fans, how do we get more of them, what is the content we're using to sell the game. So a reflective and honest picture of what the game is, but also one that entices people to want to be involved in rugby. But then also working with a lot of corporate partners. So Umbro are one of the biggest ones, they're on the front of our shirts. And we have a host of others like Honda and British Airways, etc. And working with them to align and collaborate and achieve mutually beneficial I&D objectives. They're obviously large organisations. They have a number of areas of focus for them, which similar to ours to try to scale up our objectives and ambitions, but working together to make it meaningful and cohesive. So it's quite a long explanation of what I do. But that keeps me busy most of the time.

Sudha: My God, I bet it would keep you busy. That's a huge remit. It sounds hugely challenging too. So as a second-generation British Asian, we spoke earlier at the conference when we met last year and you were speaking about, your parents, et cetera. How important is your identity to you? And what does it mean?

Jatin: Yeah, it's a really good question.

I sometimes struggle to answer it, if I'm honest, because my heritage is incredibly important me. My parents came over from India when they were very young but not very much. And so they were kind of learning the ways of being British whilst also being strongly Indian. And I was very fortunate, I was born in South London, which is a very diverse part of the country, I then spent most of my upbringing in Brighton.

And up until recently, I've always kind of struggled to kind of connect the two because Brighton's not the most ethnically diverse part of the country, but it's an incredibly liberal, wonderful place.

I was listening to a podcast the other day with Munya Chawawa, and he talks a bit about his own upbringing in Zimbabwe and then moving to Norfolk and rural Norfolk. And he kind of nailed it in a way because I kind of spent my formative years like when I was in university suddenly meeting more Asians that weren't my family and understanding a bit more of what your typical second generation experience and upbringing in Britain was like.

And so I had to kind of find that identity. But what it means to me is that I can't pretend I'm the most religious, but faith plays a big part of my culture and my family culture. It constantly drives me. I support England in every sport except cricket, because if I didn't support India cricket, I think my family would disown me.

But I think that's okay. You can straddle multiple cultural identities and still be proud of each and strongly patriotic to each. And so it means an awful lot and it's definitely defined me. But sometimes I kind of struggle to properly identify myself, if that makes sense.

Sudha: I can imagine, I struggle with it so much, so I can't imagine what that struggle is like for, the second generation. Because at some point we start looking at our roots it's not always important, but at some point it helps to us a lot of answers. And I think to make peace with who we are and what we do.

Jatin: Yeah, it's a real dichotomy if I may say that. Cause it's like, you grew up here, you're British Indian. Because of the colour of my skin, it's obvious that you're from an Asian background, and then every time I've gone back to India, not necessarily when I was younger, but when I was kind of in adulthood, you're seen as British, you're not Indian, you're British. And you kind of like, hang on, where am I meant to belong here? . And it's not a massive problems I have in life but at the same time, it does cause a little bit of a separation.

Sudha: Absolutely. Absolutely. Moving on I hear this all the time that let's make a business case. For DEIB, or DEIA, or whatever you'd like to call it. That's the first thing everybody wants to talk about. Have you not moved? Should we have not move beyond that?

Jatin: Look, I think data is important. I think building cases for change is always important.

Any person working in sort of change management needs to build cases for it. I think from a EDI perspective, I think the continued call for business cases for this agenda I think are like you say, I think are dated. I think ultimately, if you're searching for a business case to become a more inclusive organisation I think you're missing the point about what the entire agenda is about.

And for me, it's about people, it's about human beings and ensuring you can capture and engage as much talent as possible. And that requires you to look beyond your traditional lenses. And so if you need financial business cases to do that, then I think you're kind of missing the point of the fact that actually the drivers of your commercial and financial success are the people who work for you and the work that they do and then doing it to high standard.

And therefore if you're already casting a wide net in terms of talent and engaging as many diverse populations as possible and you're reaping the rewards of that, there's no need for a business case. So yeah, I think the continued ask for a business case is I think we're definitely past that.

That said, I don't think any organisation is doing this perfectly and I think sometimes the constant need to reflect on the business case sometimes creates a bit of a barrier and a blocker to actually seeing impacts and success over time. So I think we need to move, move, not move entirely away from the business case, it's important to reflect on the data and the impact that your programs are having, but move more towards what's next, how do we make sure we continue this in a sustainable way and it doesn't become just a short term project.

And unfortunately, there are organisations that do look at it as a sort of, if we do this mentoring scheme, we introduce these apprenticeships, if we do this, then we'll see some change in a short amount of time. Actually, how do you make it meaningful and strategic over time and align it to everything that your organisation is trying to achieve, rather than as a separate sort of approach or agenda or action plan or strategy that sits alongside your broader objectives.

Sudha: Yeah, because this way when you need to make a business case every year to justify your existence every year, sometimes it's the easiest thing to ask and do away with and so we segue into the next question. Do you believe that we have lost some momentum from 2020 and that progress has stalled? Because last year, we were speaking about the Kantar report and that showed that globally it was stalling.

Jatin: Yeah. And I think, so over the last couple of years, a lot of organisations, as we saw post, the horrific killing of George Floyd, the growth of the Me Too movement, we were in a very unique place globally as a result of the pandemic.

And a lot of organisations recruited ED&I practitioners new, so, and they used those instances as a large part of the narrative behind why they were doing it. And some of it was ultimately bandwagon to some extent. So if my competitors doing it or if that organisation is doing that, we need to do the same.

And in a way, it's almost built on a false premise and it kind of speaks to the cycle of the D&I issues, which have gone around for years and years and years. And it's like, you know, not to diminish what happened in 2020, nor to diminish the efforts that a lot of people in this space make. But it's almost like organisations look at it, what is the important social issue of the month or the year, and we'll focus on that in the here and now, I don't think we are necessarily across the piece losing momentum. But I think we are in another one of those challenges where we're having to justify why this work is important.

And If I go back to the point I've made previously, it's important because it's about people, it's about human beings, it's about organisational culture, it's about people driving the success of organisations, regardless of what sector you work in. And that has to be strategic and sustained over time. And so, yes, I can see organisations cutting resource or even cutting departments in this space, but they're doing so, I would say, unfairly, because the change that we as practitioners in this world are trying to drive takes time.

It doesn't happen immediately. Yeah, there are quick wins, but if all your focus is on the short term stuff, then you're just ignoring the longer systemic institutional issues that are not three years old, they are hundreds of years old in most institutions and organisations. Particularly in a country like Britain and also in the United States.

And then if you look at it from a global perspective, I think one of the challenges has always been, and you're starting to see differences here, because the growth of D& I as an agenda, and also the quality of practitioners in other parts of the world, It's very much focused on what is culturally nuanced in those respective countries, so be it in Asia, be it in Africa, be it in the Middle East, which is right.

And again, that speaks to the broader issue here, which is there is no one size fits all. There is no one approach that works for a country, let alone the organisations that are operating in those respective nations. So, yes, I can feel the pain of practitioners and I can feel that sense of momentum being lost and resources being cut. But given a secular nature of diversity and inclusion issues, there'll be no doubt, unfortunately, that something bad will happen again, and organisations will go, well, yeah, we do need to put effort and focus on this. And almost you have to, you know, to the outside world, it'll feel like you're starting again, but actually all it's doing is allowing practitioners who are doing this and been doing it for a long time to gain that buy in from their respective leaders to carry on with the work they probably set out to do much, much, much further in advance than when the issue happened itself.

Sudha: Yeah, you know, from what I've heard you speak and I've read some of the stuff you seem like a glass half full rather than glass half empty.

So you do like to see the positives also. So from that point of view, do you see that some progress has been made and that leaders can still get this back on top of the agenda.

Jatin: Oh, absolutely. I mean, there are organisations, you know, large high profile organisations in multitude of sectors who are doing some incredible work.

And I think one of the really interesting things is that if you ask most, let's take corporate leaders, for example, whether ED&I is important. And actually, take sport for great example. If you speak to the leaders within our organisations, they absolutely will talk about the importance of ED&I, the importance of inclusivity, they understand the nuance of and the difference between inclusivity and diversity and the need as well. I think where some of the challenge probably remains is that, once we have more leaders openly talking about the importance of this stuff, perhaps it hasn't seeped through to those middle layers of management who actually do the day-to-day recruiting, who oversee the day to day cultures of organisations who are ultimately the gatekeepers to seeing equitable progression within organisations, et cetera.

I talked about earlier, so not to be hypocritical, but the importance of having a strategic approach is absolutely there, but then sitting behind that needs to be clear delivery plans and buy in at all levels of an organisation, it shouldn't just be the underrepresented groups through employee networks, whatever it might be, pushing from the bottom.

It can't just be the leaders at the very top because I genuinely believe that the vast majority are bought in. It's that large chunk of people in senior management positions inside organisations who, yes, they've got really busy jobs, they've got huge remits, they've got KPIs they need to hit. I get all of those things, but if they aren't enacting the behavioural changes that most ED& I practitioners are championing, if they're not doing it in a meaningful way, which is reflective and focused on their respective organisations, if they don't know the tactics they need to apply themselves and the role and responsibilities they have, that's where this stuff falls down and I'm not saying I'm doing it perfectly.

I don't think anyone has the secret sauce, but that's certainly the way I try to look at it. And it's the way, ultimately being in this job is about influencing. And I think a lot of leaders have realised that EDI leaders are influencers, they use knowledge and expertise and data to drive suggested ways of change, but they understand they can't do it themselves.

And I think it's that layer below where people do need more help because perhaps they've been more stretched that we need to close that gap of understanding that EDI practitioners are not there to do the job, they're...

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On The Elephant in the Room podcast it has been my endeavour to spotlight leaders from the global majority. I recently had the privilege to speak with Taisha Nurse, Global Senior Director, Diversity Equity and Inclusion at McDermott. As a senior HR practitioner she has been responsible for building Centre’s of Excellence across multiple geographies before moving to her current role in 2020. A role she loves the most and believes that her various experiences have prepared her to navigate the web of challenges and opportunities she faces in the course of her work.

The focus of the conversation was on an industry well known for its lack of diversity, and to her her views a female leader on all things DEIB/A. We covered many interesting topics including

👉🏾 The challenges to finding success in her DEIB/A role in an industry that isn’t traditionally recognised for gender diversity

👉🏾 Cultural intelligence and steps to building an inclusive culture (one culture) in a global organisation

👉🏾 The role of managers and leaders in building safe work spaces

👉🏾 Her definition of leadership

👉🏾 Measurement and evaluation of DEIB/A efforts in an organisation

I name checked @Pamay Bassey when Taisha spoke about being a learner for life❤️❤️

“It's probably my most favourite job in my 20 plus years is it definitely keeps me on my toes, but it allows me to stay in the sphere of being a learner for life. Every day, I'll have a conversation, I'll read something. I'll have an experience. And I think, wow, I didn't see it from that perspective. And so it's really putting me in a very open mindset. Even though I sometimes resist it, I want to be kind of in my comfort zone, but it puts me in this open mindset to see the world through someone else's eyes, when I'm thinking of a strategy, a campaign, the training that's required, being able to sit and think, okay, this is the audience, how are they going to receive it?”

To listen to the episode, head to comments for Links 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Thank you, Taisha, for being a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today. Wonderful to have you here.

Taisha: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to today's dialogue with you.

Sudha: Brilliant. So to start with give us a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Taisha: So my name is Taisha Nurse.

I am currently the global senior director of diversity and inclusion at McDermott. McDermott is a global engineering procurement construction and installation organisation. So we're in energy, let's say. But my background is I have over 25 years of HR experience. I am an American born, so I started my work experience in the US. However, only worked in the US for two years, I then transferred to London, still in investment banking. I've worked in the Caribbean in telecommunications and now at McDermott in energy for the last 10 years. I've worked across most of the centres of excellences in HR. So mobility, HRAS, compensation and benefits, recruitment, and also worked as an HR generalist.

So the scope of my HR experience is quite broad, but I would probably say I'm now in my favourite, most favourite position being diversity and inclusion. And it truly takes a bit of all of my experience and combines it quite nicely to help me navigate through what I kind of see some days as a web of challenges and opportunities et cetera. So that's me in a nutshell.

Sudha: And I think you're a multi, country experience must come in really handy with a global organisation that you work in.

Taisha: Definitely. I say time and time again, diversity inclusion is not a one size fits all. And at McDermott, we have over 25 countries, we're averaging 30, 000 employees. And so it's being able to be very open to others experiences, listening very intentionally to come up with strategies that will work for that particular market.

Sudha: So how easy or difficult has it been to succeed as a DEI leader in an industry that isn't traditionally recognised for diversity or gender diversity. The industry isn't really known for being a very inclusive industry.

Taisha: So I will say my organisation, we would say we're very diverse. Again, working across over 25 different countries and diversity is measured across many, many dimensions, as we know. I would say from a gender perspective their scope to improve. But when you look at the nature of the business being engineering, being construction, you don't find many women even leaving their undergraduate studies or even in their secondary education going into STEM studies. So as an organisation, we really need to look at establishing partnerships all the way down to perhaps secondary schooling to get more women into this type of industry.

We're never going to achieve 50/50. It just doesn't exist in the market. But like I said there's opportunities to improve. I think as a DE & I leader. I have been successful because we know that the world is changing and the market is changing and the industry is changing. And there is a focus on diversity and inclusion.

We have a function of DE&I and I work very closely with top leadership to say, what does our strategy need to be to continue to celebrate our diversity and bring more diversity into the organisation, but also to be inclusive. And all organisations want to be inclusive. That's effectively where everyone feels valued, respected and recognised.

And so even though I sit as a DE& I lead, it's my challenge perhaps, what's perhaps difficult is trying to make that everyone's responsibility, not just mine. I can't be accountable to being an inclusive and diverse leader for such a big organisation. And so It's being able to create a message that resonates with every single employee that they realise that I can contribute to creating more diversity and also inclusion within the organisation.

So those are, the big pieces, but I think as a DE&I leader in the industry, it's not as challenging perhaps in the past because the focus is growing and the understanding is also more clear to all leaders and throughout the world. So it's one step at a time. I always say it's a journey. It's going to take time, but we're getting there.

Sudha: Yeah, I think the important thing is that you get started and you recognise that this is critical for the business. So if you're on that journey, it's brilliant. We spoke about this in the first question that you worked across multiple geographies and that sort of is definitely a superpower. It gives you an understanding of cultures, etc.

As a global organisation, you said you're present in 25 countries, 30, 000 employees on an average. How do you go about creating an inclusive culture or one culture that everybody strives for?

Taisha: It's challenging because I think, also the dynamics of our workforce is very different.

So not only do we have our office-based staff, who I probably spent a lot of time trying to educate, raise self-awareness, run campaigns, and really engage that population. We also have probably over 15, 000 employees working in fabrication yards. And so these are our blue-collar workers. I can't get them all in a room and do training.

We also have employees on vessels, we work offshore. And so they're doing rotations where they live and work on a vessel. And so how do you tap into that culture? And then we have project sites in some of the most remote locations. And so an inclusive culture and creating one is a challenge because it's again, not a one-size-fits-all in terms of how do we do that in some of these different locations.

However, what we're trying to drive is a McDermott culture. And so we tap into what are our values? What is the culture that we want everyone to experience irrespective of where you're sitting on this planet. And so it's looking at what are our values, it's educating our leadership on inclusive leadership behaviours.

So they're adopting it into their language into their day to day behaviours, into their decision making. So that takes time because effectively what we're doing is saying when you walk through McDermott's doors, this is how we want you to show up as an employee, as a leader. This is the experience we want you to have.

And so, by definition of inclusion, we want you to feel that you can bring your whole self to work, that you feel that we value and respect you, that we celebrate your uniqueness, which is your diversity. And ultimately we want you to be successful in the work that you do.

And so is it a big challenge? I think yeah, just organisational culture on the whole is going to be a challenge. But the inclusion part of course has its own challenges. But it's every day, one of our values is 'One Team’. And so it's breaking down what does that ‘One Team’ then mean when we think about inclusion, and how do we make sure that we're getting the best from our people.

So creating it is setting it at the top, they must live it, breathe it, exemplify it. And then pushing it down and teaching others, what does that look like in your day to day interactions?

Sudha: Yeah, sounds like a huge, huge task I can't imagine it being easy and it must require a lot of engagement and coordination with leadership and of course different teams and functional heads and countries.

Taisha: I mean, a part of the role, especially this year, that we've looked at doing a lot of cross-functional collaborations. So we're working with our ethics and compliance. We're working with our quality, health, and safety. We're working with communications. We're working with sustainability and social governance.

We work with our leadership and so it's looking at how do we drive this message? We work across all of the HR areas to make sure that the message is embedded in everything that we do.

Sudha: Yeah. It's a huge task nonetheless.

And how important is cultural intelligence for your employees and leaders in today's world?

Taisha: Well, cultural intelligence pretty much sits as our business strategy. So just to take a step back at McDermott, we operate as a ‘MOPEX’, which is a multi office project execution organisation. So that means we can have a project where the project director may sit in the US, the engineering is going to be done out of India. The fabrication may take place in the Middle East, or let's say Indonesia, and you have individuals supporting from anywhere in the world. And so sometimes we work off this basis that we've brought the best resources together across the world. We threw them onto one team, and so they're gonna have the same working styles, speak the same way, communicate effectively and as that is so far from the truth.

So as a part of our strategy, probably for the last two or so years, is looking at how do we build cultural intelligence, cultural agility in our managers, so that they can flex their style of communication, so that they can flex their working styles to accommodate different cultures.

And. It's working well. Of course, it's not intuitive, if you have someone that is very different from your style, even if they're from the same culture, that has its own challenges. Now imagine you're working with different time zones, even language could be different. It's going to be challenging. But we need to have cultural intelligence in order to have successful project execution.

That's how we function. That's a part of our success.

Sudha: Yeah. and the model that you said that you have as an organisation, that means that this is just an imperative. So the definition of leadership, since I was a young person has changed dramatically, even in the last 10 years or in the last three years or post-COVID, Black Lives Matter, the definition of leadership has changed dramatically with all that has happened in the world.

And it's, moved on, I think, from where it was about command and control. What does leadership mean to you?

Taisha: I think leadership it has transformed. And I believe it's starting at a much earlier stage. So we have a younger generation coming out of university and they feel they are leaders. So it's not being linked to perhaps work experience. It's not linked to age. It can be thought leadership. It can be individual contributors that are leaders.

And I think if I go back to how you and perhaps myself, how we experienced leadership, it was authoritative. It was driven by age. It was hierarchical. It was based on being very technical in your experience. And what we're seeing is this huge shift to being collaborative, very much people oriented.

The softer skills are taking precedence. So we have a lot of conversations around being an empathetic leader. How do you coach as a leader, being inclusive, being flexible and adaptable. And I think for some of the leaders that I know, this is huge that if I say, be empathetic, they're looking at me with cross eyes, be compassionate, they're like, what are you talking about?

But that's the expectation from a new generation coming out that my leader, is not going to be hierarchical, that I can voice my thoughts and that we can collaborate, even though I may not have as much experience. I have knowledge and I have ideas and the thought is that should be embraced. And so I think you're seeing yeah, this definite shift in leadership to the softer side. And I think that goes sometimes a little further than the technical leadership that we know because if you're very agile and you can learn things and you can lead people not necessarily processes, that takes you a lot further than just being very technical in your in your leadership style.

So, yes, it's changing, but I think, there's some gaps in us being able to move a previous generation into this leadership style that I think is going to take time.

Sudha: Yeah, I think there is some resistance and reluctance.

Taisha: Yes still, even though we can say leadership has shifted, it's more softer still, compassionate, empathetic leadership, being able to actively listen and relate to employees. We know that is the way forward, but yeah, there's definitely resistance from previous perhaps generations. And saying, well, we're just here to get the work done, just do it.

Sudha: You can't win them all, yeah. So, leadership and people in supervisory roles have a very critical role to play in creating inclusive and safe workspaces. Why is psychological safety critical to workplace inclusion? So we spoke about how we experienced leadership or how we experienced workplaces. And what was yesterday doesn't have to be today. So I guess the changes for were good, but what are your thoughts on this?

Taisha: Yeah, so when I think about individuals in these roles, they have a duty of care to create an inclusive and a safe workspace and the nature of McDermott's work where we're working in fabrication yards, safety is paramount. But I think in previous years, we spoke about physical safety.

And what we realise is that psychological safety is actually linked to physical safety. So when we talk about creating these safe workspaces, it's beyond physical. It's psychological where employees feel they can speak up. They can share their thoughts and opinions if it differs from status quo, that if they see something going wrong, not being done properly that they can raise the flag immediately and in our case be able to stop work.

But that comes with a level of, there'll be no retribution, I will not be penalised, that this is an environment where my thoughts, my ideas, my voice is actually welcomed. And if you don't have an inclusive and safe workspace, things can go very awry. And so what we're pushing is that we need to really start focusing on how do we build psychological safety, and that's down to your people in leadership, they have to start with demonstrating behaviours and that mindset that we want you to speak up, that we value your opinion.

It's not this hierarchical, do as I say, we need to expand that. And the younger generation will not tolerate.

Sudha: No, they won't. They just won't.

Taisha: No. They're not gonna come to a work environment that's not inclusive and that's not a safe workspace. So, it's really important and it's quite interesting to see the research and the conversations really starting to shift around psychological safety and how do you create that and how it impacts the overall work environment.

Sudha: Yeah, I think it's a part of the older health and safety thing, which is just brought to include, this very, very, very critical for successful workplaces. Do you believe Taisha that, it's important to regularly measure and evaluate the work that's been done in the DEIB space and organisations? Because a lot of organisations speak about this. So there's a lot of talk that's happening but not everybody can stand that scrutiny and that's why probably measurement or accountability is essential. What are your thoughts on this?

Taisha: I mean, we definitely have to evaluate. Measuring tangible measurements are probably a little more challenging in the DEIB space. But definitely being able to tap in with engagement surveys spot polls to understand how are your initiatives landing. I think in kind of the DE&I space, it's absolutely imperative, because sometimes the dialogue, or if...

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People recruit people from the industry, but also people who look like them, behave like them, are from a similar background, use a similar language... Would you agree?

If this is the reality, the question is how important is inclusive recruitment for the PR industry or businesses in general? And what does 'inclusive' recruitment actually mean? What can organisations do to break the cycle of systemic exclusion and homophiliy? Move from being performative to truley transformative??

Rohan Shah, Co-Founder and Managing Director, Ruben Sinclair, and I had an interesting conversation about all things inclusive recruitment and more. We also spoke about 👇🏾

👉🏾 The role of technology/Data in creating fairer and more inclusive recruitment processes

👉🏾 Inclusive job adverts, structured job interviews, pre-determined questions and clear evaluation critera

👉🏾 Ensuring candidates are evaluated on the basis of skill sets and competencies rather than personal information

👉🏾 Back to work, future of work

👉🏾 The Elephant in the room for the recruitment industry - that leaders don't really get involved with the recruitment process

👉🏾 His belief that to have a truly inclusive recruitment process, a company's employee value proposition (EVP) should allow for radical flexibility. What does radical flexibility mean?

"I think it's easy enough to have people acknowledge the importance of, strategic and inclusive approach to recruitment, but it can seem very difficult to actually get people to actually, genuinely adopt it. I think that's more so because when they realise the work, the time, but also the cost associated with it. You can slowly see this barrier going up between sort of saying it's important and actually doing something about it. Do people understand the importance? Yes, Are they always adopting it on the whole, I don't think they are, and if they do adopt it, do they generally get a specialist in to help them? I don't think that's always the case."

Rohan Shah

Head to the podcast to listen 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good morning, Rohan. Wonderful to meet you again after a couple of weeks

Rohan: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, Sudha.

Sudha: So let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Rohan: Sure. Okay. So I'm Rohan, I'm responsible along with my business partner for the overall growth and direction of Reuben Sinclair, which is your traditional recruitment consultancy. But also RS Engage, which is very much a HR and talent management consultancy on the recruitment agency side. We have a vision to introduce exceptional PR, marketing sales and digital professionals to businesses around the world, whilst also changing that sort of traditional recruitment practice.

And on the RS engage side we have specialist HR consultants go out and advise small to medium enterprises on their HR practices, but also put in place specific practical work for them, but also help a number of global clients transform their talent acquisition and sort of retention strategies with a particular focus on inclusive and accessible recruitment.

Sudha: That's interesting. So how did you get into recruitment? How does one get into recruitment?

Rohan: It's the same as many in recruitment. I simply fell into it to be totally frank. Well at university I studied accounting and finance. That was more to please my parents than myself. And you know, I think, I was in year two of my degree and after quite an honest and probably upsetting discussion with my parents, I took the decision to drop out, I just simply wasn't enjoying accounting and finance.

Despite the fact, actually I do quite a bit of it now for my own business, I actually quite enjoy it. But, you know, my dream at the time was to pursue a passion in performing arts. I loved sort of the theatrical elements, I love sort of dancing, singing not so much, I wasn't very good at that.

But yeah, at the time, that's what I wanted to do, I looked at various drama schools and, you know, I needed some money to pay for that. And I was speaking to a friend down at my tennis club at the time, and he was in recruitment and he said to me, look, why don't you come and do recruitment for six months, earn a bit of money and then go to drama school.

So I thought, yeah, why not? But once I get into something, you know, I want to give everything that I've got, you know, there's no point in doing it half heartedly. So I went to recruitment, I gave it everything I had. Maybe I found that sometimes I was acting on the phone and I just thought, you know what, I'm actually quite enjoying this. I think the money was an attraction as well, at that point in time, I was quite young and I didn't have a lot of it at the time. And when I started earning, I just thought, well, this is great. And that's it, here I am, nearly 20 years later.

Sudha: You know, well laid plans of mice and men. Yeah, but I'm disappointed to hear that you didn't pursue the performing arts.

It's something probably you should give a thought to. So I'd say like as an Indian parent, I think, I feel that I've been very liberal, but I didn't actively encourage my kids to pursue the arts and especially my oldest kid. But she's in marketing, she passed out of Cambridge and is doing extremely well. But she took up improv a couple of years back and she's enjoying it so much. And I'm just saying it because you spoke about performing arts. I think it's something you should give it a try.

Rohan: It's interesting actually, I did a comedy course not too long ago, probably about a couple of years ago, which was so interesting. I was at a speaking event and I spoke to the keynote speaker after, and I said what was the one thing you did to sort of enhance your public speaking? And he said, look, the best advice I'd give you is go on a comedy course.

I thought, oh, you know what, this might be quite fun. It was the hardest thing I've done in a long time. I had to get up and do a five minute comedy set at the end of it which was great fun, but really tough. I think at the time, I also used to love doing magic, like magic was a real passion. And actually, when I got the job, I'd just got entry as an associate member of the Magic Circle, and I had to go to lectures every Monday, which were in Euston. And if I even dreamt about leaving my desk at 6:30 PM to try and get to Euston, the company would just look at me and think, where are you going? What time do you call this? And so it became really hard for me to go to lectures.

And in a way, what you say about, pursuing the passion, that was one of the things, I think my old recruitment company simply took away something I was really passionate about because I just couldn't keep up with it. And when we started Reuben Sinclair, one of the things that we did say was we'll never really steal anyone's passion. If someone has a passion, then commit to it, go to it, don't worry about finishing work at a certain time.

Go out and pursue it because, yeah, that's one thing I do regret that I never kept up with magic as much as, I would have wanted to.

Sudha: Oh, but that's amazing that you're enabling other people within the organisation to do that, because I think people are still worried when they come into workplaces or are working remotely, whether they can log off to do something else.

So that's really nice.

Rohan: Yeah, we actively push, you know, people's passion and how they keep up with it.

Sudha: Since the time it's been 20 years, especially in the last three years, how has the recruitment space changed or evolved?

Rohan: You know, that's a really good question.

I think in some ways it had actually in some ways, no. I think surprisingly the things that are still quite the same is generally the external process in the way people still recruit. So, you know, people still write a job advert, they review a CV, they'll arrange an interview, they'll do a first interview, maybe a second, maybe a third, and then they offer a role, and I think, if you think about that process, certainly well documented that Leonardo da Vinci was the first person, I think to write a resume in like 1480s. And not much has changed since then.

So of course there's different ways now, obviously there's the digital element. You might be doing some video CVs online and so forth, but you know, there's things that are going back 500 odd years and they're still exactly the same, which is really surprising to me, but in terms of recruitment and what we actually do internally, what has changed is the technology and the attraction and searching the candidate.

As well as the way in which we develop new clients and new business. Ultimately though, it's still very much based on the same principles. I think it's a lot more data driven now than it was, you know, 15 years ago. And obviously a lot more is more automated rather than having to go through Rolodex or faxing over certain information and so forth.

So, I think where there's been a real shift. in recruitment, specifically what we do is what is probably known as the embedded model. Which is very much what RS Engage actually does today. You know, this basically allows one of our specialist recruiters to sit on site and work for the client as their own in house talent manager, utilising the sort of expertise and technologies and all of the resources of a recruitment agency and within the agency that we have. So actually you're getting a recruitment agency sitting on site working on your behalf as your own. I think that's really evolved in the way companies have recruited. I think this method actually works really well for businesses that, you know, they're looking to scale and you don't have to be hiring a ridiculous amount of people every year.

I think if you're hiring say five or six people per year and that maybe includes churn then actually utilising this method, you'll see sort of a real considerable time and cost saving. But also I think it goes beyond just finding people for a specific vacancy.

You know, we then start to look at, like I mentioned, obviously data is really important. We start to look at data behind the talent attraction, the numbers of how many people, your business are attracting, the demographics of those people. What does your hiring process look like? Is it fair and is it inclusive? That actually starts from the attraction stage, but then also the retention of people joining your organisation but leaving there's, fundamentally something else that needs to be addressed. And I think all of this encompasses that sort of core principle of a fair and inclusive recruitment and I'd say that recruitment has really tried to develop itself and evolve itself in making sure that recruitment practices are fair. But I do think actually on this, generally in recruitment, it's a low barrier to entry, I think everyone knows that. And I think businesses today, there's a real responsibility for businesses to vet their recruiters properly, ask them the right questions, ask them the hard questions, challenge them on what they're using to find candidates and so forth. And I think you'll very quickly come to realise the ones who have capabilities and the ones that don't.

Sudha: So Rohan, would you say you're able to influence how they think or to broaden their thought process on the journey of recruitment, because it's not just one thing. How difficult or easy it is to get clients to adopt some of the new things that you are suggesting, whether it is technology or whatever, in order to be more strategic, but also to be more inclusive in how they're recruiting their talent?

Rohan: Yeah. Okay. That's a great question, Sudha. I think it's easy enough to have people acknowledge the importance of, strategic and inclusive approach to recruitment, but it can seem very difficult to actually get people to actually, genuinely adopt it. I think that's more so because when they realise the work, the time, but also the cost associated with it, you know, you can slowly see this barrier going up between sort of saying it's important and actually doing something about it.

I think we do influence how people think, some more so than others, but do they always get a specialist to help them implement an inclusive approach? I would say majority of the time, no, and actually that's because I think recruitment or recruitment strategies or recruitment principles, however you might want to look at it, is viewed as something that is It's quite straightforward.

Now, I'm not saying that recruitment strategy or recruitment is rocket science by any stretch. It's certainly not. But I do think it's how people view you know, maybe painting and decorating. I know i'm comparing decorating to recruitment, but most of the time people will say they can do it themselves.

And if they don't, it's generally because it's time associated. So it's easy to just get someone else to do it. But when you get a specialist to do it, the difference is always so visible. and, you know, it's so noticeable because it's a genuine skill set that's been adopted and practiced and perfected over time.

My job, is always to ask the right questions and to challenge in the right places. But I can't force people, but I will always try to have them think about strategic and inclusive recruitment process and the importance of doing it properly because, just like the painting and decorating, cracks will begin to appear very quickly and imperfections will stand out when the lights are on.

So I think, do people understand the importance? Yes. Are they always adopting it on the whole, I don't think they are, and if they do adopt it, do they generally get a specialist in to help them? I don't think that's always the case.

Sudha: Yeah, like you said, it's not rocket science, but it is one of the most important steps to building a great organisation. And I don't think people are thinking that they need to spend money on it, because essentially, when you talk about time, it also means money and resources, right?

Rohan: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, time is definitely money. I think generally, when you've actually got someone's time, they probably are more likely to go on and spend the money.

But like I say, I think generally when you've got the time, I think people are very eager to learn. And to take a lot of information and then when they've got some, but not all the information, because, if you went into it into real detail, you'd be there, for a whole week. When they've got enough information, I think it's that point of which they then start to go, well, actually, we could do some of this ourselves. And you know what, they probably can. And they do, and some do it really well. But I think actually asking the right questions and challenging themselves in the right way isn't necessarily what they might be doing.

Sudha: Yeah, that's true. So for organisations that want to do the right thing, what are the steps that they can take to reduce biases in shortlist selection, interview processes, especially, how can they use new technology.

Rohan: But I think in terms of reducing biases, there are so many, I mean, you know, there are over sort of 13 different hiring biases that will happen in the recruitment process. And the way to go about this is to eliminate as many hiring biases as possible.

You know, we are human beings, things happen unconsciously, we need to put steps and technology in place to help us reduce layers of bias. First off, I think it's important to state that addressing bias in the hiring process is a consistently ongoing effort. It's got to be continuously looked at, but look, I think for me there are so many ways of addressing hiring biases and eliminating layers, I think, you know. We've got a list as part of RS Engage and I think there's around sort of 18, 19 different things that organisations can do on an ongoing basis. But I won't go through all of those, but to name a few, first and foremost, if you haven't started with training and educating your staff that's really important.

Provide sort of unconscious bias training, diversity and inclusion training to everyone involved in the hiring process, including the recruiters, hiring managers, interviewers, make sure they understand the importance of a fair, inclusive practice. I think the second way is using structured interviews, implementing something that's very structured to the process with predefined questions and a clear evaluation criteria.

This helps standardise sort of the process and reduces the influence of the personal biases that go on. I think it's important to make people feel welcome in an interview. But reducing and not necessarily having a lot of small chat, you know, as I say, it is important because that then starts to lead on to certain biases kicking in.

But it's still important to keep a friendly process. You talked about technology. I think it's really important to leverage technology particularly things like xxxxxxxx contracting systems and AI powered screening tools. Like, you know, I think these things can help in various different ways, you can anonymise resumes and applications. You can ensure that candidates are evaluated based on skill sets and competencies rather than sort of personal information, for example, which companies they've worked for or which universities they studied at, you know, so technology can really help you leverage doing that element of anonymising CVs. The other thing I think is best important is diverse interview panels. So creating interview panels that include individuals from a variety of background, you know, having different perspectives can really help in making more...

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The Elephant in the Room podcast was in hibernation in December and January. We are back this week with our first episode of the year with the indomitable Ritika Wadhwa. Ritika Wadhwa is a strategic advisory board member for British Transport Police, is a Fellow at the Society of Leadership Fellows, Windsor Castle, a Board Director and Trustee of the 5% club. But, above all of that she is an accomplished, kind and hugely generous person - opening up her networks to all who need it (including me). There is a beautiful story behind the name of her consultancy Prabhaav Global and also her brand colours (listen to the podcast to know more).

She is one of the many people I follow on LinkedIn and early last year I invited her to be a guest on my podcast. By the time we actually recorded the podcast episode it was October (I think) - the timing was perfect though. She had taken a proverbial leap of faith and launched her consultancy Prabhaav Global - on a mission to cultivate cultural intelligence amongst individuals and organisations. When we finally caught up we spoke about cultural intelligence, her journey to entrepreneurship, working with a global brand like ASOS, intent and impact, culture and identity, leadership and much much more……

“When I decided to call it Prabhaav Global, a lot of people were giving me their feedback to say, why make it difficult? And I said, difficult for who? Because Prabhaav speaks to me. Prabhav means impact in Hindi. And that’s what I want to do. That’s me, that’s my identity. That’s my language. And I’m done with fitting in. I’m done with trying to be someone I’m not yet again. So I said, that’s it. I’m going to call it Prabhaav Global. The colours of the company are going to be turmeric because I love yellow. It’s my favourite spice and turmeric is the spice that transforms everything that it touches, thats I want to achieve through Prabhaav Global, transformational leadership, transformational behaviours” Ritika Wadhwa

Like to know more, head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode transcript

Sudha: Good afternoon, Ritika. Wonderful to have you as a guest today on The Elephant in the Room podcast. Thank you for being here.

Ritika: You’re most welcome. Thank you for having me, Sudha. This has been something that I have been excited to be on for a while.

Sudha: Yeah, we’ve been planning this for some time. So to start with can you give us a quick introduction to who you are and what you do?

Ritika: Sure. So I am Ritika Wadhwa. I am the CEO and founder of Prabhaav Global. Prabhaav means impact in Hindi and that’s what I’m here for, impact, impactful work and using the transformative power of cultural intelligence for impactful leadership.

Besides that, I also sit on the strategic advisory board of British Transport Police. I’m a leadership fellow at Windsor Castle and also a trustee at the 5 percent Club. All of this to say that really grateful to be here on this conversation with you talking about everything that we’re going to talk about and I’m excited about that.

Sudha: Brilliant. So how and when did you decide to focus on cultural intelligence? Was it, a natural pathway to the work that you were doing because I’ve seen you’ve had varied experience or did you just wander into it, you know, and you were good at it.

Ritika: Oh, I don’t know about good. It’s definitely been a journey.

So I was born and brought up in India, let’s start from there. Born and brought up in India in a very sort of strict patriarchal society and community structure. I then moved to the UK to do my MBA and along the way, you know, until we’ve got to this point, I have worked and studied and lived in three continents.

So when COVID hit and I was sort of going from one job to the next until that point. When COVID hit, it almost felt like I know what I don’t want to do, but I don’t know what I want to do, if that makes sense. So I was very clear about the job that I was in at that point was not something that was serving me and I didn’t see it serving me for the rest of my career.

So I went on a coaching journey to really unpack who I was, what I wanted to do from life, because as an Indian woman, it’s almost as if you never ask that question, you get on with life. You get on with doing the duties as a mother, as a daughter, as a sister, as a wife, as you know, all of that.

And your career is there somewhere in the way for various reasons, but it’s not something that you think about too much or give it the importance that you should probably. So I gave it the importance that it deserves at that point in my life. And I went on that coaching journey, unraveled what was important to me, what my transferable skills were and what I wanted to do for the remaining part of my career, because all said and done, we are doing a job, whether that’s eight hours a day, 10 hours a day, a core part of our life is working.

So for me, the question was, how can I sit back for a second and really do what I want to do because I’m going to give this the time anyway. So in that coaching journey DEI came out, diversity, equity, inclusion came out as a passion, rightly so, because as an immigrant, as a woman of colour living in the UK, who’s been born and brought up in India, this is something that I was very passionate about.

And then I saw the job ad for Cultural Intelligence Center and I applied and got the job. The thing that called me towards cultural intelligence was the fact that here’s a framework that actually makes people accountable for behaviour change. And that’s what I was interested in. I’m interested in actions and behaviour change rather than training courses that people go into and are not accountable for that behaviour change.

And so cultural intelligence almost called me and it was meant to be and I started working for them as director of operations more than a couple of years ago, got promoted to chief operating officer while I was with them and cultural intelligence has been since then a core of what I do and how I intend to change the world.

Sudha: Wow, that sounds absolutely incredible. You’ve said that we don’t normally spend anytime thinking about where we want to go and where we are on the journey and where we’d like to go and what the next 10 years, what would I like to be doing for that period of time.

You launched your company Prabhav Global. I saw, your posts on LinkedIn and I heard from our conversations. You are very passionate about the name, about what you’re setting out to do. So you’re new to the entrepreneurial journey, but how has the journey been? And I recently also saw on LinkedIn that you won xxxxxx xxxxxxx as a client. So massive congratulations. And tell us a bit about this journey.

Ritika: Yeah, thank you. Fascinating, right? If someone would have told me, even in March this year, that you would be setting up your own organisation, I wouldn’t have believed them.

No way. Because I’ve been on a salary for 30 years. And as much as the rest of my family is filled with entrepreneurs I never thought that I would be one of them because the job security, especially if you have a young family, it’s really important. And I thought, you know what you do your job, you get your salary, you give your best to the job you have.

And then, you know, the times that you fall sick, et cetera, et cetera, you just think the entrepreneur way sounds really risky. But this time round, it almost felt like something in the higher powers was pushing me towards that, the way things unraveled it almost felt like this is what’s meant to be at this point in time. So literally I just decided to set up the company, give it my all for as long as I can afford to and see where it goes. The underlying factor that pushed me towards being an entrepreneur was, hey, bet on yourself. It’s fine. Just believe in yourself and bet on yourself fully and wholly and see where it goes.

So I set up Prabhav and you’re right, even when I decided to call it Prabhaav Global, a lot of people were giving me their feedback to say, why make it difficult? And I said, difficult for who? Because Prabhaav speaks to me. Prabhaav means impact in Hindi. And that’s what I want to do. That’s me, that’s my identity. That’s my language. And I’m done with fitting in. I’m done with trying to be someone I’m not yet again. So I said, that’s it. I’m going to call it Prabhaav Global. The colours of the company are going to be turmeric because I love yellow. It’s my favourite spice and turmeric is the spice that transforms everything that it touches, thats I want to achieve through Prabhaav Global, transformational leadership, transformational behaviours.

And so it’s been a very fascinating journey. It’s only three and a half months. So far, and I have learned more than I’ve learned any time in my life before. Thanks to amazing people like yourself, who I have come across along the way, who have been just God sent, right. Right from some of the introductions you’ve made, Sudha to just being around for conversations. I’ve been really lucky to have people like yourself in this journey so far that doesn’t make it feel lonely, that when I’m feeling down, I know I can pick up the phone and talk to people to go, okay, oh my God, right. What do I do with this next? And people that have been on the journey a lot longer than I have, they are willing to share.

And that’s beautiful. Those people that I’ve met along in the last 3, 4 months, that have taught me some, shared with absolute generosity, with not a competitive spirit, but just a generous spirit of wanting to see each other do well because we’re on the same journey, we’re on the same path, really wanting to get the same outcomes.

And so that generosity of spirit has been absolutely beautiful. I still, worry about a lot of things in life, but I somehow do not worry that much about business. Because again, I have been put on this path by higher powers. So I, believe that the higher powers will look after me. And at the end of the day, it’s work, you know, it’s work, it’ll all work out.

Sudha: And I think you’ve been amazingly generous. I have seen the kind of generosity that you yourself extend to others. And the wonderful network of people around you and how generous you are to open up that network to anyone, including to me.

So I’m sure, there are people who know that and good things definitely have an impact and make an impact on people. And there is definitely a snowballing effect on that.

What would your advice be Ritika to organisations who are getting on this journey? Why is cultural intelligence important for them, what are the three or four things that they can start with?

Ritika: So I just think that it’s a no brainer. And I say it’s a no brainer because look at the way the world is rapidly changing around us, look at even right now what’s going on with the division around the world that is causing havoc everywhere.

It’s heartbreaking, really, that humanity is going after each other in such a sorry and a sad way. So I feel from that context, it’s almost a no brainer that we have to find ways to find more that is common between us than there isn’t and cultural intelligence is one way that does that. There’s also the fact that the world is globalised because of digitalisation, because of social media.

We’ve all come closer together in a way. Those boundaries have become less and less pronounced. I also want to say, you know, what does AI mean for us as humans? And as we grow what does that mean for our roles in the future? 5 Years, 10 years from now, what is this all going to unveil?

So, with so much ifs, in the world around us right now, I think cultural intelligence is an absolutely needed skill that individuals and organisations need to develop, must develop, have to develop, in order to even sustain themselves, in order to survive, in order to have a competitive edge. You just have to learn how to work with people.

And so I just want to step back a little bit, cultural intelligence then is the ability to work with people that are different from us. It’s an ability that we can all develop, a skill that we can all develop, and a skill that, as I’ve said, is extremely much needed in the current context of the world that we operate in.

So my advice to organisations that are starting on the journey is, first of all, congratulations to consider starting on the journey, that’s the first step, and then the cultural intelligence framework itself unveils what are the three or four things. So the CQ drive, for example, the reason why we need to work with people that are different from us.

CQ knowledge, how do we gather information about people that are different from us? CQ strategy, how do we plan to work with people that are different from us? And CQ action, how do we actually work? How do we use that knowledge? How do we use that planning and the purpose to work with people that are different from us?

And so really, in a nutshell, the advice is to absolutely get on that journey and stay the path because it’s like anything else, you’re not going to be able to develop a sense of intelligence or anything else over one workshop. It’s a commitment to stay on that journey.

It’s that persistence to stay on the journey. And this is why the first, the most important thing that organisations and individuals have to unveil is why should they go on that journey. Because if your why and your purpose is clear for any journey in life, but specifically as you go towards something that might be uncomfortable, then it’s really important in order to stay persistent and confident on that journey, you have to be clear about your why.

Sudha: Yeah, that’s so true, Ritika. You spoke about digitalisation, you spoke about, the world coming closer together. And also, we live in a divided world, organisations are working with diverse teams across geographies. And people want to be treated fairly, they don’t want people in or Europe, or, UK dictating to employee groups in Asia or Africa about, and not actually treating them equal to themselves. So I think, yeah, definitely as a way forward, it’s something that people need to do. You’ve written an article about intent and impact. Tell us something about it. So impact is critical, definitely from your perspective.

Ritika: So before I go to intent and impact, you mentioned something really interesting there, that employee groups and people around the world work differently and it’s important to understand that.

So there’s that aspect of global diversity, right? How does the nationality affect who we are and our cultural values and how we like to be spoken to or treated or respected, et cetera, but then within the context of cultural intelligence, there’s also domestic diversity, which can very much show up in generational differences.

What you just mentioned around, the generational culture of…. I was speaking to someone recently who’s a millennial and she said to me, we are trying to work with a system that wasn’t built for us to succeed.

Sudha: Yeah, true.

Ritika: How do I work with this system without being called lazy or impatient, et cetera, because I just can’t be bothered to stay and try and work through a system that wasn’t built for us in the first place.

And those systems and policies and procedures that have been around decades. Some organisations are doing it better than others, where you sit back and you go, well, this isn’t serving us anymore, how do we change it? And so that’s all part of the cultural intelligence work.

So I just wanted to mention that before……

Sudha: That’s very critical thanks for sharing. Yeah.

Ritika: Intent and impact. So where this has all come from is when I moved to the UK 20 something years ago, my accent was mocked terribly. I had a very, very Indian accent. I still do, but then it was even more pronounced. And my first workplace. I was surrounded by people that would say my name wrong, say the words that I couldn’t say in the British way. And what that did over a period of time is that it really brought my confidence down. Although, in India, I had been taught the Queen’s English, history, geography, maths, whatever it was, all the topics were taught in English.

We had an elective Hindi, but it was English and the language that I thought in, was questioned. My ability to speak that language correctly was questioned in the first few years that I was here in the UK. Now, if I go back to those same people and said, did you intend for me to feel like that?

They will probably absolutely say no. That was not, we were just having fun and you know, it was just part of xxxxxxxxx together, et cetera, et cetera. But the impact of that on me was awful. And so I’ve reached a place in my life as an immigrant, ethnic minority, woman of colour, etc, to go, I genuinely don’t care what your intent is, because it’s invisible to me.

a) I can’t see it, until it turns into an action that has an impact on me. So when people get people’s names wrong or say things because it’s banter or, you know, sorry, I didn’t know, that’s fine. But what is the impact of that on the marginalised communities? And that’s what I’m interested in. I’m interested in the impact first.

I’m interested in making people accountable for that impact. Really, there is no excuse anymore to ask the type of questions people ask because there’s enough resources out there. There’s enough knowledge out there for people to really get their head. That doesn’t mean people can’t be curious.

Not everybody knows about everything. So, of course, there is a place for curiosity. But again, what is the impact? How is it that you’re positioning your curiosity? So, this is why I’m interested, of course, there’s a place for the fact that I intended to cause you harm and I’ve caused you harm, versus I didn’t intend to you harm and I have and I apologise for...

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I talk a lot about women, mothers/carers, mid-career professionals, and leadership. Of course, these are intersecting identities that coalesce at different points in life to create additional barriers for working women. We are not even talking about race, disability, ethnicity, ageism etc. And I talk about these issues because I was squeezed out of what I thought should have been a fulfilling career. What happened to me, does not have to happen to others, and so the aspiration is to get women to understand where the barriers may lie and be more intentional about their journey. For my part, would it have helped if there were more women in leadership at the time, women for whom their careers were as important as their personal lives? I definitely think so.

I wish I had known a lot of the women, I know now - at that time. Amongst those who have been an inspiration for me in my second innings as the founder of a purpose led consultancy are Nicky Regazzoni and Georgina Blizzard 👩‍💻 of The PR Network. So, I was delighted when they agreed to be guests on The Elephant in the Room podcast.

Both, Nicky and George are trail blazers championing flexible, remote working and job shares when they set up The PR Network 18 years ago. That The PR Network is a B-Corp and thriving says something about the model (family first) - that it works. At a time when women are still struggling to find support and balance or make it to leadership positions - The PR Network is a testament to their belief in the model. In the world we inhabit today (back to controlling location and time), we definitely need more role models and allies who have the bravery and imagination to do things differently - if we want women to thrive.

Massive congratulations to both Georgina Blizzard 👩‍💻 and Nicky Regazzoni, for winning the inaugural Global Women in Public Relations and International Communications Consultancy Organisation Angela Oakes Award. For those who don’t know, the award recognises those who have smashed glass ceilings and changed the game for empowering female leadership, making a significant contribution to improving the landscape for women working in PR.

Their 18 year journey has been a journey of learning but also inspiring to say the least. Head to the podcast to hear Georgina Blizzard 👩‍💻 and Nicky Regazzoni talk about values, purpose, creating cohesive cultures, challenges facing the industry, skills for the future, strategies for promoting women in leadership, and what’s next for the PR Network.

womenfounders #womeninleadership #inclusiveculture #familyfirst #trailblazers

Link in the comments 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Podcast transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Nicky. Good afternoon, George. Wonderful to have you as guests on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

George: Hi there, Sudha. Good afternoon. Thanks for having us.

Sudha: Great. So let's get started with the questions. We normally start with an introduction. Do you have an elevator pitch, Nicky?

Nicky: We do. The very short version is that we are a global communications agency powered by experts.

And what I mean by that is that we have a footprint all over the world, we are in all four continents. But our difference is that we're based on a network of experienced people such as yourself, who have experience between them across all sectors and disciplines, and we can cover most geographic markets.

And we have a team of nine people in the UK including George and myself, and that core team manages the base of experts all over the world, precisely according to our clients' needs. We work in the technology and consumer sectors, and on the tech side we've got brands such as Western Digital, Workday, Dropbox, what three words.

And on our consumer team, we work with Beyond Meat and Zipcar and Lexus and Toyota. So real kind of breadth of clients that are using our services.

Sudha: Wow. Sounds incredible. And it also sounds like a different model from what you hear of the traditional agencies. So very interesting to hear that.

So we're all shaped by our experiences, by culture, people, education, reading. What would you say were your biggest influences? And of course this is building towards some of the questions I'll ask you later. George, would you like to start on this?

George: Yeah, I think about this quite a lot actually and I think it changes.

So I'm often inspired, I actually can walk away out of a meeting and think, gosh, that was so inspirational and take something from that. However, probably the one person who inspired me the most over my life would have been my father. So he had an incredible work ethic. He traveled all over the world.

He kind of opened my eyes this kind of global workforce and encouraged us all to work. I mean, it's no surprise that, I'm one of three sisters, we all work in business. Two of us have our own company and actually Harriet works with Nicky and I and has done since the beginning, pretty much.

I'd also say my children, that's you know, big family theme here. I've got three daughters as well, but two of them are neurodivergent and one actually, in particular, is very dyslexic. But I've watched her, which actually, even myself, I probably could have written her off when she was about 12, because she always had this big goal of wanting to be a doctor.

And actually, she completely powered through and has achieved that now. So she's off to medical school. So I think, for me, it's that work ethic, that sense of never giving up and that kind of the world's your oyster. It's that kind of thing that has inspired me.

Sudha: Wow. Nicky?

Nicky: Yeah, I mean, on the family side, I think my grandfather, he left school at 14 and kind of put himself through school and university ended up becoming a head teacher.

He again inspired me to have that really strong work ethic. But in terms of kind of business people and leaders, I've always admired the late Anita Roddick for her kind of commitment to sustainability and the belief that you could build a good business with purpose at its heart and balanced profit and people and planet at the same time and still have a really successful enterprise.

And I think, I know we'll come on to talk a little bit about our business and what's important to us in that sense. But I would say that she's certainly been a really inspirational figure for me.

Sudha: Yeah, this is like so interesting because when I ask people about, who are the people who most inspire them?

Often there are a lot of people close to home who have been the people who have inspired us the most. And of course there are people outside also, Anita Roddick is a great example. So congratulations to both of you. The PR network is 18 this year and you all have been partying nonstop for some time.

What were the drivers for setting up your own consultancy and also having that operating model, 18 years ago when it was sort of unheard of, right? Nicky?

Nicky: Yeah, I can take that. George and I both worked in leadership positions in traditional agencies for sort of seven or eight years each.

And we'd both noticed that it seemed to be really difficult as women kind of progressed up the workforce particularly positions on boards to balance that with their family life. So George actually had a baby was on maternity leave and I'd been freelancing and I'd noticed that there were lots of people who'd have taken the decision like me to jump out of that traditional trajectory and look at working in a different way for themselves.

So George and I had this idea of building an agency with a different kind of model different way of working really, which would be based not on people in the room or in an office, but people who have complementary skills and experience that we could bring together in virtual teams for the benefit of clients.

And there was nothing out there like this at all at the time. And it wasn't necessarily going to be a lifestyle business. We thought, actually, this does have a really strong commercial basis. And certainly the people that we were taking advice from, run agencies and were client side, we thought, actually, this definitely has legs.

And we also tested the idea on some of the people in our network who had some great experience and skills and we thought might like to join forces with us, but still remain independent. So we thought, let's go for it and set up a company, kind of see where we go. At that time, we didn't plan or intend to have staff, but actually the business model did prove to be very strong quite quickly. So now, as I mentioned before, we do have nine staff, but the operating model today really remains the same. So we have now a very large network of people who I mentioned earlier. So we've got 1,318, I think, in our database at the moment. So those aren't people working on our accounts at any one point in time, but they're people who, have the right level of skill and experience.

They've worked for at least 15 years or so. And they sort of fit our criteria in terms of work ethic and caliber and share our values and so on. So now we bring these people together in teams, they work exactly according how they want. So they choose their clients, they choose when and where they work.

And then we match it to the clients. So we look at the brief, we look at what experience they need, what sector experience where those clients are when they need in market experience, and then we build a team based around that. So there isn't any fat, it's all about smarter working, because we don't have an office, we still don't have an office, but the client fees are not sort of subsidizing expensive overhead.

So it really is. about matching and using our connections on the client side and the team side to make sure that the brief is fulfilled as it needs to be. And kind of everybody's happy and it works and we keep clients for a really long time and we keep our people happy for a long time. As you mentioned earlier, very successful party is the proof of that.

Sudha: Yeah, yeah, that sounds like an incredible sort of model where you're, creating teams based around their need, rather than just having people around who may not meet the needs of the clients. But this model, as we discussed, is not something that would work.

And definitely not for such a long time, if you didn't have certain key things to hold it together. And that's my next question to you, George, probably how important are values and purpose to you remaining authentic to what the PR Network is all about. And then what does purpose mean for you at the PR Network?

George: Yeah, I think to answer your question, incredibly important. I think those drivers that Nicky just kind of talked you through are still our values to today. They've become our values. So this commitment to absolute excellence, everything we do and that commitment to our clients, but also being matched with that total flexibility that Nicky described. Like we don't prescribe how people work or in terms of what they do, but we just look for the best possible outcome for our client and the very fact that we've worked virtually and flexibly for so long as well, means that we really understand what that means. So it's not just kind of lip service to that approach, actually truly is that approach, the fact that our children, I mean, my eldest is 18, Nicky's is 17 now, we still live by those values, although our children have moved on, that flexibility, that family first approach is something that we're very, very committed to.

And I think, obviously there's members of our team and people all over the world who have very different circumstances, meaning they want to work perhaps more flexibly, whether that's because of the other pulls on their time. That's exactly how, we see it. But those values have to be matched obviously with the quality and the level of work we give our clients. In terms of purpose, and actually sometimes purpose is a very overused word, rolls our eyes when it's mentioned. But it is important to us, but it has to feel very natural, it has to feel something that we are incredibly committed to. And I think anyone that meets us or comes into our business or works with us understands our purpose immediately. And that is to do great work for great people. but in a very flexible way, in a very agile way. And that's what we've always done, now that has changed as our circumstances change, but that remains the same. And it's a very simple approach, but it's one that I think, because it's very authentic people believe in it. And I think if you're just saying things for buzzwords, people won't come along with you. Well, it's obviously those 1300 people Nicky talks about, I think are all attracted to us because there is a sense of belonging that they feel that purpose, they share that purpose.

And therefore we can bring them together and deliver great work for our clients.

Nicky: And perhaps we should talk about our B Corp accreditation as well. It's something that George and I actually wanted to go for way before COVID. We got really excited about it, thought a great framework not just to tell people what a great business we are and to rubber stamp it, but also to give us kind of a path to go along and to ensure that we keep becoming better.

And unfortunately COVID did get in the way for us and we started probably pursuing that B Corp dream about 18 months ago, and it did take a good year to get us in the position to be certified. But we got 90 percent for workers, in the workers category.

Sudha I'm sure you know how it kind of breaks down. And we were so happy with that, because George has been talking about our approach to people on both sides and I think that obviously is a great endorsement of the fact that we don't just talk the talk, we don't just say we treat people well, but obviously we do, because you can't become a B Corp without really being a business.

Sudha: Yeah, without walking the talk, so to speak. And I think this is such a wonderful way to also showcase something that we've lost probably in the past couple of decades where we've all become so work centric that we've forgotten that our individual lives are not just about work, there are other things beyond work.

There may be children caring responsibilities, but there could be passion projects, there could be anything. It could be just sitting idle and not doing anything.

George: But actually it's even better there is 'cause I think that the motivation people have because they're able to work more flexibly. The experience they have outside of work brings a lot to work. So I think having those external factors built into your life, and very much part of your working life, is brilliant. It just makes a better experience for everyone.

Sudha: Yeah, I'm sure people have less dread because I remember during the agency life, you work so intensively and such long hours that you dread some of the days because you have other commitments too. Maybe they're just administrative tasks, but you don't have enough of time in the day.

So if this frees up some time for you to do other things without feeling stressed, you'll actually bring your best self to work.

George: Absolutely. I think so, xxxxxxxxxxxx is definitely there to do that.

Sudha: Yeah. George, this is a question for you. As a virtual agency, how do you create a cohesive culture?

I mean, this is a question for everybody post COVID actually. With a remote, hybrid, intergenerational, culturally diverse workforce. It is a huge challenges and it is also a...

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R7HlirRiUQqzThp7cBa8

Shownotes:

A couple of months back I spoke with Marcia La Rose, Group People and Diversity Director, Four Agency Worldwide. Her story is uplifting - she has been at the agency for over 2 decades with over a decade in leadership roles and has been heavily involved in the agency’s acquisition of B-Corp status.

In our freewheeling conversation we spoke about her journey as a woman leader from the global majority, her learnings from the journey. We also spoke about👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 How the role of HR has transformed in the past couple of years, and the biggest challenges and opportunities

👉🏾 Post COVID workplace, the future of work for our industry - if remote/hybrid working is done for or here to stay

👉🏾 Her views on whether HR should drive purpose and culture in an organisation

👉🏾 Inclusive/equitable culture and steps to creating it

👉🏾 The importance of goal setting and measurement for culture change programme

👉🏾 What the industry can do to increase representation of the global majority in the C-Suite/Leadership teams

We also spoke about what the Elephant in the room is for her and much, more. I cannot thank Marcia enough for her generosity in making time from her busy schedule for this conversation.

To listen more, head to the podcast in the link below:

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Marcia. Wonderful to have you on The Elephant in the Room podcast today. I am tuning in from Gurgaon, India. So it's afternoon here.

Marcia: Great stuff. Brilliant. I'm in London, so it's morning here.

Sudha: So to get started, give us a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Marcia: Okay, so I'm Marcia LaRose. I am the head of HR at Four Agency Worldwide. I've been at Four for 20 years now. I am actually an accountant, so when I joined Four I was their accountant. Oh, well I was the whole finance team. And the company was very small then maybe 15 employees. So at that point, it was quite manageable to look after suppliers and clients and paying staff and the like, so that was all absolutely fine, but as the business grew, it was found that I had particularly good people skills by others, I must add.

Marcia: And so I moved into HR, and I've been in HR probably now for about... 12 or 15 years, and I still look after a lot of things to do with money. So I work really closely with the group finance director, and I still look after the salaries and tax issues, student loan issues, those sorts of things. Aside from that I was heavily involved in Four acquiring its B Corp status and I actively work to ensure we are continually improving on that. And separately again, I am a fellow at the PRCA and I am an immigration advisor at the Home Office. So that's what I do.

Sudha: Oh my God. Wow. You definitely have your plate full.

Marcia: Yeah. I like to be busy. Keeps me out of trouble, I think. Yeah.

Sudha: So as a woman leader from the global majority, how easy or difficult has career progression been for you? From the sound of it, it looks like you, managed to find some good people along the way, or?

Marcia: Yeah, I mean, it wasn't necessarily easy but I know I've been lucky, which isn't how it's actually supposed to be. It should be fact, not luck. Many, many years ago when my daughter first started school, she's now 28. So many years ago I was able to work from home due to child care issues that I had and I was only actually able to do that because my employer at the time was a progressive thinker and I just don't think there's many of those people, I just don't think they were around at that point and that was the luck part.

Marcia: And that person, Nan Williams, is the chief executive of the company I currently work at and have been working at for 20 years. And she knew the value of working mums, which I think is missed by many businesses. I think that's a big group, that lots of businesses ignore.

Sudha: Yeah. My kids were probably of a similar age and younger age. And I remember really struggling and having to step back a couple of times in order to be able to juggle home and work. Often I had to sacrifice, to stop working to be able to look after. And also you mentioned that you move from being an accountant to being a people person.

Marcia: Yes. So, I mean, the central service functions are always quite interlinked. I haven't got any really strong IT skills, so I won't claim anything there. But I think, the group finance director and myself, Patrick Kwok, we work very closely. I've literally just come off of a call with him and we have maybe three or four calls a day when we're not in the office together. We work very closely to make sure everything's going well across the business. And because I've already got the financial background. It's easy for Patrick to speak to me in ways that maybe it wouldn't be for others. So it's just the way it's gone really. So yeah, again, luck.

Sudha: And that be shouldn't be the case. But thank God for that. What would you say are your biggest learnings from that journey? Something that you can share with aspiring women leaders, especially from the global majority, black and ethnic minority.

Marcia: Yeah, I think one of the biggest learnings for me, and because I experienced it, was not to judge others for their lifestyle choices. So I know in the past that I was judged because I was a black single mother and people had their own preconception of what that looks like and what that would be. And I think, although I have been able to carve a pathway, it has hindered me in other ways, other opportunities at other organisations.

Sudha: Yeah. That's very unfortunate. And I can imagine at that time, especially, nobody even thought about how it was impacting.

Marcia: No, if I tell you a really bizarre story. I remember working somewhere and I had to drop my daughter to school before I came to the office and then there was something happened on the tubes and everything went wrong. And I was hurtling up the escalators at a tube station and broke my toe on the escalator groove. And that was a turning point for me where I'd sort of mentally said to myself, I'm going to just take it easy when I get there is when I get there, rather than break my neck, literally, to try and get to work. And I think a lot of working parents go through, similar type of epiphany, I suppose, where they get to a point where they say, look, X is more important than Y.

Sudha: Yeah, it can be so traumatising, this whole thing. Absolutely. So you've been around for some time. Has the role of HR transformed in the past couple of years? And what according to you are the biggest challenges and opportunities.Not trend, I wouldn't say trend because everyone is doing it, I'll do it.

Marcia: Yeah. I think a lot of businesses would have found that one of the largest opportunities has been the ability to hire talent from all over the country/world. The ability to do that has given a lot of businesses a step forward where the hurdles arrive, now the challenge, would be to get those individuals to come to an office space for mandated days. So yeah, the opportunity has also created the challenge, if that makes sense, in the past couple of years of how the workplace looks like.

Sudha: And do you think that , workplaces of the future are going to be hybrid?

Marcia: Well, I think because our industry, the communications industry as a whole in the UK have now got staff going in the office for two or three days mandated. I think the shuffle of staff between agencies might not be as extreme. So there's that. So hopefully it will stop the churn of people going and coming. But as a whole, I do think hybrid might be here for a while longer, but I don't know because now we're going into winter here and COVID might show its face again and we might go backwards before we go forwards.

Marcia: So it's all a bit up in the air because obviously the home working or remote working and hybrid working were sort of forced on businesses because of COVID. And so we may have to come to a conclusion as a country at some point that it's sort of like a seasonal thing rather than something set in stone. I don't know.

Sudha: So, you're, talking about that the flu may come back and we may need to take similar sort of measures, you know, and you're talking about seasonality. COVID did a lot of bad, but it also helped us to reimagine how we could live work and play, as I say often.

Sudha: So what do you think is now the future of work for our industry? Where you are looking at increasingly intergenerational workforces. You're looking at, different cultures, you're looking at a lot of diversity and you're looking at people, who want different things from the workplace. And especially when you look at millennials, or you look at over 50s, where they are not willing to compromise, unless they have a great pension, of course, , don't have a pension, let me say, they're not willing to compromise on certain aspects of what they hold dear.

Sudha: So what according to you would future work look like? I mean, nobody can predict it actually things evolving so fast. It's always changing, but maybe two or three things that you think?

Marcia: I think there's a lot of prongs to this because some businesses may feel that they could, not renew their lease on their premises and have some other form of office space, a rework type situation. But then I know the government have been actively encouraging people to come back to London, to keep London Limited functioning. But so all the shops and the other businesses that are around there, but there's been an increase in footfall for the high street since people have been working from home.

Marcia: So it's sort of swings and roundabouts and businesses, although they're independent and can do what they wish, there are some limitations. So for example it took a long while for train companies to offer other seasonal train tickets. Because historically it's cheaper to buy a weekly ticket than a daily ticket on public transport. But if people are only going to the office two or three days a week, what does that mean? And so there's lots of different... tangents to this. It's not simply just a business deciding they want to do X and it'll be fine.

Marcia: Because we've also got to think about employees, the cost of living. There's so many different elements, but I, do feel there will be some businesses who will decide against having permanent premises.

Sudha: Yeah. And Marcia, do you believe that , again, if we talk about in a post COVID world, purpose suddenly became something that everyone wanted to talk about, right? Do you believe that HR should drive purpose and culture in an organisation? Or HR is well placed to drive purpose and culture in an organisation?

Marcia: Well, they need to be working with the C suite of businesses, but HR, yes, should definitely drive the purpose and culture of the organisation. There should be policies in place to ensure that the culture is diverse and the business has a purpose definitely.

Sudha: Yeah. And what does that mean when, organisations say they have an inclusive equitable culture? What does that mean? And how does one go about creating it? Because it's not like you mix a couple of ingredients and it is done.

Marcia: I think businesses need to be committed to an equitable culture.

Marcia: Because, there's no point the C suite or HR implementing an inclusive environment if those working with the diverse staff on a day to day basis are not aligned. So it's a really important thing to educate the current staff to make sure that they understand the direction the company is heading in and that , they're bought into it and so they see the benefit as well or understand what the benefit would be. So yeah, how do we go about creating it? We at Four, we have a redacted CV process, as one of our main strands. So somebody would apply for a role and that CV is only seen by people within the HR team and the CV is then redacted before it is shared with the hiring manager and only when the hiring manager says they want to see person X will they get the full CV. So there's no preconceptions or unconscious bias, a place if people see someone's name or where they were educated or what additional languages they may speak or what additional countries they may have lived in.

Marcia: So the HR team actively read the CVs and don't just carte blanche, blank out information, they read it. If it's something that is needed and wanted, obviously that is kept open, but some information is actually redacted. So we hope that that.... well it is helping us improve our diversity stats.

Sudha: And you can see the improvement?

Marcia: We can actively see the improvement. Before we started doing that we found that a certain group were very, very diverse, and that group were the central services team, which incorporate the finance, the IT, the HR, the office teams, reception, because I generally interviewed those people. The client facing teams, however, we were at a different percentage of diversity. So to improve that we implemented the redacted CVs and we went from 14, one, four percent of diverse client facing staff to 24 percent within a two year period.

Sudha: Wow, that's good. Well done on that.

So how important, Marcia, are fair pay and representation for building an inclusive culture in order of priority?

Marcia: I think they're all think they're all of equal priority, to be honest, because they're all interlinked. You cannot have an inclusive culture without fair pay and representation. It just wouldn't happen. So they are all of equal priority and importance. I think that's quite clear to me, anyway.

Sudha: And pay transparency?

Marcia: So we're not yet at a point where we need to publicly publish our ethnicity or gender pay gap, but we have those figures. We're very strict on the pay brackets for job titles, and so if somebody is ex job title, their pay will be between A and B range, and that's quite clear. So yes.

Sudha: That's a good way to ensure that, you're not, just making decisions because you feel like it.

Marcia: Absolutely, we don't want to restrict the management, but we do want to give them particular boundaries to work within. Because, it's human nature, they'll have favourites, they'll have this, they'll that.... but this helps us look at it, with clear eyes and make sure that nothing silly is going on in the background.

Sudha: Yeah, that's true. Goal setting and measurement, how critical are they for the success again for culture change program? And would you have any examples of what success would look like, what goal are you setting at, when you're talking about an inclusive culture, or when you're talking about transparency, or who you are as an organisation, all of this is not like a one time thing.

Sudha: It's something that you need to do continuously. So how do you measure and what is that goal that you're moving towards?

Marcia: Yeah, so because we are a business that has offices not just in London, but in the north of England and Wales and across the Middle East, we set each of the teams, a different target for diversity.

Marcia: So that's a hard target that we've set them. We've also got soft target on gender because, we're 60 percent female fundamentally, so where teams are lacking, they've got different targets to others. So we are quite strong on that, and we also implement the Rooney rule which is an American thing where we would make sure that somebody diverse is in the top three or five candidates that people want to look at for roles, even if they haven't pre selected them, we would ensure that they are in there. So we do things in the background to make this happen for us, but the teams themselves, all the directors of the teams know their targets and we have a company target on top of that.

Sudha: Marcia it seems like a fairly simple thing that, when you're doing something on DEI or DEIB as you call it, it should be embedded within your business purpose and where you're going as a business. And if it is done separately because, people are looking at you and sort of asking you what you're doing you're likely to fail.

Sudha: Do you believe that you as an organisation have done that, it's embedded within your business purpose and that it is aligned to your objective to be a profitable business, but an inclusive business?

Marcia: Yeah, I mean, the fact that we've been awarded a B Corp status actually also proves this, but as a business, it definitely is embedded. We've got a very varied workforce in age and gender and disability and ethnicity. We've got a very, very varied workforce because in our industry, we believe we couldn't serve our clients, rightly and correctly if we didn't have diverse staff. And so it is very important to us to have that and to act on that.

Marcia: And an additional thing that we do at Four is that rather than rely on recruitment agencies, we have a recruitment bonus, for...

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SHOWNOTES:

How does context help up define and be comfortable with who we are?

In a recent conversation with Akin Thomas we spoke the role of context and how it helps us define our identity. We also spoke about his entrepreneurial streak, how the Johnson and Johnson credo inspired him to define it for his business. In this very thought provoking and sometimes difficult conversation we also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾Organisational consciousness - the sweet spot, where an organisation’s intention and impact goes beyond their need

👉🏾 Leadership - as an energy and force for change and the need for leaders to have long term vision as opposed to a tactical approach

👉🏾 His optimism about progress on DEI in the UK, and belief that senior leaders are more authentic and genuine than ever before about the desire for change. The recognition of the existing fear (resistance to change) within active resistors

👉🏾 #Tell your story project that was commissioned by UK Sport, Sport England, Sport Wales, Sport Northern and Sport Scotland to research Race and Racism in Sport

👉🏾 The terrible reality that there are more alternative structures in sports now than in the 1950s when our forefathers came to the country.

👉🏾 That nobody, absolutely nobody feels that it is worth investing in the cost of discrimination, the cost of belittling people, the cost of crushing people’s lives.

👉🏾 His advice to organisations seeking to be more authentic ‘stop looking at what others are doing, look within and get a real sense of what it means to you as an organisation.

If you would like to listen more, head to the podcast….👇🏾👇🏾

“And if you don't have context, it's very easy to be pulled in so many different directions. So as a child, I grew up in a place called xxxxxxxx, which was the largest council estate in Europe. I was one of very few black kids. I was the only black kid that went to school from 5 to 16. I didn't see anybody else other than myself. And I was void of context because I was fostered from six weeks old. And therefore I am this black child in the middle of this extremely white space. I knew I was different. I felt different. I didn't get a sense of belonging, but I didn't know what the context was because I just knew I was not within the right context.”

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Akin. Thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Akin: Yeah. Hi, how you doing?

Sudha: I'm fine. Thank you. Okay. Let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Akin: Okay. So my name is Akin Thomas. I am the founder and CEO of AKD Solutions. We are an organisation of change consultancy.

Akin: So we focus on three areas of business, which is research, learning and development, which is our core and consultancy services. We have evolved over the years and I've gone from a local brand to an international brand and the planet's become our global brand.

Sudha: That's amazing. So have you always been entrepreneurial? And what made you get on that journey?

Akin: Okay. I think the answer is, it was there. I used to work for local government. So I started off working in Children's Homes and I kind of progressed through the organisation, became a senior manager, but I just had this burn, I had this urge. And I just knew that being within the organisation couldn't satisfy it. I felt quite restricted and also I was doing things on the side whilst I was working as a senior manager. I always had different projects on the side and one day I just jumped. One day I just had an epiphany. And I just said, I said, I'm done.

Akin: I'm not doing this anymore. Went to my director and I said, I'm done, I'm leaving. And he said, you can't. And I said, watch me. 30 days later, I was sitting in my house with no job, no nothing. But it was probably the best decision I've ever made. Well, one of the best decisions I've ever made.

Sudha: Wow. That's amazing. And I guess when you have to take the leap, you really have to believe in what you're doing. There's no hedging or no thinking, Oh, can I do this? And can I do that?

Akin: Absolutely.

Sudha: I went on your website and did some research and I saw that at AKD you have a credo. What is the inspiration or the belief behind that credo?

Sudha: And how does it translate, in every day, because it's standard to see mission, vision purpose, et cetera.

Akin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me, what was really important is that I was doing a lot of work with organisations around leadership, and we were doing lots of work in regards to mission, vision, statements, et cetera, values.

Akin: And for me, there was a lot of work that we were doing with organisations and it just didn't feel as genuine as it should do. It didn't translate into the day to day. And for me, one of the things I was thinking about, there's got to be a compelling vision. There's got to be a vision that excites everybody in the organisation. And so, I was searching and searching, doing lots of work, studying different companies. And I discovered the credo written by Johnson & Johnson. And written by the founder in 1943. And to be honest, they have amended it by taking out a few words. It has stood the test of time. So this credo, I mean, Johnson Johnson is well over 100 years old.

Akin: I think they wrote it in 1943 when it became a public listed company. And what I saw was this amazing statement of intent. What I loved about it, firstly, it talked about its customers, it talked about its staff, it talked about stakeholders and then it talked about its shareholders last, because it said if we do all these things well, our shareholders will get a good return and it just inspired me.

Akin: And what I wanted was a statement of intent that really captured who we were and was authentic, and it was timeless. That was what's really important to me. Too many organisations were changing and chopping and changing. And for me, if you think about leadership, leadership should be a long term thing. There should be a long term vision. And often what we're finding ourselves In now is leadership is being really condensed into very short bursts. And so therefore you'll never really get in the best. And that's the same with some of our visions and missions, because you talk to organisations that values have changed after three, four years.

Akin: It's like, why aren't they rooted in terms of who you are? And so for me, that's what it was about. So it's about really kind of capturing the essence of who we are. So when we talk about, we believe in the brilliance of, every individual and every person it means that, what does that then translate to when we talk about, we believe in the power of conversation.

Akin: I say to people, we will never become an e learning company because I just don't, I don't disrespect it, but it's just not who we are. What we see, is that we see transformation in classrooms when people are having conversations. So our job is to stimulate brilliant conversations. And in fact one of the things I've said is that it's got to be fun. We work too hard not to enjoy life. I've said to the team the day it becomes boring and we stop laughing, I'll shut the company down. And so I really want these things to translate on a day to day basis, not only internally, but it infects our clients as well. So that's why we created it.

Sudha: That's so amazing. Especially, talking about the day it stops being fun because we don't realise that we spend most of our lives in our workplaces. And yeah, it shouldn't be that hard or that difficult. And the other thing that you mentioned that really resonates is now we're talking about stakeholder capitalism, and we are talking about stakeholders being the primary people who we need to take into consideration.

Sudha: So, this existed a long time back and we're just coming back to it, but it's also about having a long term vision rather than being tactical because that's, it doesn't sit right changing who you are every other day.

Akin: Yeah. Cause there, I think there's a couple of things.The issue about being authentic. But secondly, I think it's about if you truly want, you know, good things take time. It's like food. Yeah? Okay? You can have a microwave meal or you can have a well prepared meal. Which has taken time, it's been done with love, with care and with passion, yeah? They are markedly different.

Akin: And I think the trouble, what we're expecting from a lot of our leaderships and organisations is kind of popcorn, quick meal, yummy fast meal, fast food type mindset as opposed to actually, if we take time and do this really, really well, the longevity that we will experience will be phenomenal. But people are too scared to make those decisions.

Sudha: Yes, they don't want to stick to one thing or don't want to commit to sticking to one thing.

Akin: Absolutely.

Sudha: Now, so moving on, in a LinkedIn post from last year, you've spoken about the importance of context. I read all your posts and that was so interesting. Is this to do with your identity and how important is your identity to you?

Akin: It is hugely important, and I think it's one of the things, the more that I have grown in age, the more I recognise the importance of context and really embracing yourself. I think one of the challenges we have in society is that most people are not comfortable with themselves. They're busy trying to emulate, copy other people.

Akin: And if you don't have context, it's very easy to be pulled in so many different directions. So as a child, I grew up in a place called Leapath, which was the largest council estate in Europe. I was one of very few black kids. I was the only black kid that went to school from 5 to 16. I didn't see anybody else other than myself. And I was void of context because I was fostered from six weeks old. And therefore I am this black child in the middle of this extremely white space. I knew I was different. I felt different. I didn't get a sense of belonging, but I didn't know what the context was because I just knew I was not within the right context.

Akin: And that leaves massive voids, and when you have no context, the void that that gives people is incredible. So the fact that you can't speak your mother tongue or that you don't know language or you don't know who you are. You don't know friends, family, it just leaves voids and what then people do in my opinion is that they have to fill those voids often with stuff which is superficial, not true et cetera. And therefore what you have is a lot of people walking around who are shadows of who they should be. So for me, when I went to Nigeria the thing about being Nigerian is like, it's in your blood, but you don't understand until you kind of find yourself in a context like, Oh, I get it.

Akin: You understand? So my drive, my thought process, the entrepreneurism, et cetera, yeah? It was when you've put it in context, it's like, Oh, I get it now. And what it does, it gives you a sense of peace, greater understanding. And I think the minute you can become comfortable with yourself because you've got context changes because suddenly you can't be the victim of others.

Sudha: Yeah. And that's not the best way to lead a happy or productive life.

Akin: Absolutely. Absolutely. How many people really have context, especially in the UK right now know, we're very diverse, I see so many people I talked to them and they say, yeah, my mom and dad didn't speak their mother tongue to them. Why? Yeah. Okay. Why? All of these things are so, so important. I mean, we change our name so it's more palatable to other people. It's not right.

Sudha: We change our name, we change the way we dress, the way we behave, the way we talk or laugh, I think in public, you don't want to be too loud, don't want to get the focus of attention on yourself.

Sudha: Yeah. That's so interesting. Akin, what does leadership mean to you? Because you said you have done a lot of work around leadership.

Akin: What does leadership mean to me? I think for me leadership is the energy and the force for change. And I think that's really, really important. It is the energy and the force for change.

Akin: It is incredible the impact that one individual can have over 10, 20, 100, 2 million. It is incredible that one person and their leadership can literally change history. Change the focus of a nation, change a community. And if you think about that level of power and influence. You have to recognise that, I think there's a couple of things. Firstly, it is a huge privilege to have leadership ascribed to you, but it's also a massive area of responsibility when you're leading an organisation. Like for me, okay, my organisation, we have about 40 individuals, both kind of full time and associates, but that bears a weight in terms of I'm responsible for these people.

Akin: But also I think the excitement in terms of, for me, great leadership is like, do you know when you take people on a journey where we've never been here before, we've never navigated these waters before, we're creating something new, we're creating something innovative, we're creating something that creates change. It is an incredible force for, good, but also if handled badly for evil as well. And so for me, the more I look at society, the more I look at kind of individuals, governments, sporting organisations, families, the importance of leadership, it is right through society. And I think when we understand and respect leadership and utilise it properly, profound change is possible.

Sudha: There seems to be a vacuum in leadership across actually business and politics. I don't think we should even discuss politics.

Akin: I think one of the things I would say to you is this year is that I think one of the things I believe is that we have a lot of good managers in leadership positions. And we do recognise leadership and we're not saying one is better than the other or more important, but what we are saying is that actually the quality of leadership, that we are experiencing is actually really quite concerning.

Sudha: I agree with you. In the course of like doing the background research, I read another article where you spoke about organisational consciousness. What is organisational consciousness and why is it important? So the organisation is like a living being.

Akin: I wrote that article in regards to, how do we learn as organisations? And the premise was this. The initial premise was this is if we have no idea what society is going to look like in the next 5, 10, 15 years, how do we create learning platforms which are fit for purpose that will help us to create the right type of future?

Akin: And one of the things I've seen in terms of the evolution of organisations is one thing is where we go from what we call ego to eco. So we go from the selfless, the selfish to the kind of more selfless. And one of the things you look at in organisations is this. So if you think about an organisational need being that prime reason for existence.

Akin: So if we look at an organisation, let's take, for example, Ikea. Ikea's prime business is to sell furniture in a particular mode. Yeah. But that's the prime drive so it's a profit making organisation. Yeah. Now, if you were to roll back, say 20, 30 years, all the learning would be geared towards that function only.

Akin: So if it didn't impact upon the bottom line in terms of upskilling people to be better at their jobs, organisations wouldn't have done it. There has been a shift now in terms of how society functions and businesses function. So organisational consciousness is basically where an organisation's intention and impact goes beyond their organisational needs.

Akin: Okay, so there are three elements that are required. So I've already spoken about organisational need. So therefore, what is our core purpose? But then you've got two other elements. You then start to bring in individual needs. So suddenly in an organisation will start to be more conscious of where and to address individual needs.

So let's look at well being. Again, 20, 30 years. it wasn't on the table. You were expendable, you didn't have the luxury of mental health challenges, it was just not on the table. Now we're much more conscious about well being. You can see there was a mutual benefit, but we're now starting to think about individual needs when you're looking at development now, we're not developing you for where you are today, we're developing you for where you want to be in two, three years time. So there's an organisational need. But the third element, which is the really important element, is what we call the societal needs. Now, societal needs are quite complex, it's because a societal need is basically where there is a fundamental disconnect between what is right and what is going on in the world. And an organisation says, we need to engage with this societal need. Let's look at domestic violence. It is a fundamental curse on our society.

Akin: Again, 20, 30 years ago would never be part of the narrative of any organisation. But now there are organisations...

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I recently spoke with Kirsty Leighton Founder and Managing Partner of award winning consultancy Milk & Honey PR, the highest scoring B Corp global communications agency in the world. As someone who speaks so much about purpose, it is always a great learning opportunity for me to engage with people/founders who believe in the power of purpose.

In this freewheeling chat with Kirsty Leighton we spoke about the meaning of purpose and how it manifests itself in business conduct, engagement with stakeholders and sustainable practices. We also spoke about bravery, setting up a business in her mid-40s, building an agency that behaved differently 👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 The Elephant in the Room for the industry - poor diversity and social mobility

👉🏾 Addressing challenges facing the industry including the disruptions around new technology, upskilling the talent pool and also changing the traditional agency model

👉🏾 What comms professionals can do to maintain their seat at the table

👉🏾 The drivers for transitioning from LLP to an employee ownership trust

👉🏾 B-Corp certification, as a path to betterment, external validation and respect

👉🏾 What leaders are doing to prepare for the future of work - including dealing with hybrid, new technology, mental health, work life balance etc….

And much more.

Link to the podcast episode in comments 👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good afternoon, Kirsty. Thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Kirsty: Lovely to be invited. Thank you so much.

Sudha: Okay, so let's jump right in. Give us a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Kirsty: So my name is Kirsty Leighton. I am the founder and I've given myself the very exalted title of Group CEO of Milk and Honey PR. An organisation that I set up six and a half years ago. So six and a half years ago, with just me, with my almost 30 years experience now we've been able to grow that from just me in six years to now 50 people in three continents and four offices.

Sudha: Wow. That's amazing. So when and why did you decide to launch your own consultancy? Did you have an aha moment? I know that women are fairly risk averse and often when they take that first step, it's because they're not satisfied with what is happening in the workplace, or there's some sense of dissatisfaction.

Kirsty: Well, that was absolutely the case. I was incredibly fortunate that in the last 25 years prior to starting Milk and Honey, I had worked for some amazing, always PR agencies. So I'd always been on the agency side. And I'd learned an awful lot during that time. I got the opportunity to work in lots of different types of PR, but what I found is that sometimes the intention of what an organisation's policy was looking to achieve was perhaps slightly missed in practice.

Kirsty: And there was just these little niggly bits where I could see what the intention was, but the practical delivery wasn't quite delivering it. So my last role, which was at Hudson Sandler before I'd set up Milk and Honey, they were actually coming out, they were doing a management buyout from Huntsworth, and I just thought actually, do you know what? Do I really want to wed my future to this organisation as brilliant as it was? I was there as MD for five years and thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought, actually, do you know what now is the time, if I'm going to do something on my own, to do it.

Kirsty: But, talking about bravery and women wanting to do something in perhaps later life, for me I was in my mid forties when I set up Milk and Honey. And both my parents used to actually run their own businesses and both of them were incredibly intelligent and incredibly hardworking, but they, bless them, did not have an ounce of commerciality between the pair of them. So every couple of years we moved to a slightly smaller house. So I was always terrified of running my own deal and being responsible for paying other people's rent and mortgages.

Kirsty: So I put it off and put it off. But during my career, I was given plenty of opportunity by my leads, very often female leads actually, that allowed me to open new divisions, open new entities, open new countries. And so I then had the practical experience and probably more importantly, the confidence to be able to do it myself.

Sudha: Yeah, think that's so important. And that's very interesting actually, that you speak about your parents and them running their own businesses. And I think sometimes that would make you very risk averse. I've seen some people who've been, I think, put off because they've not seen their parents have success or it defined in the parameters of success that we have today but very interesting to hear that. So, Kirsty, we live in a world where purpose has become such a buzzword, especially in the last two or three years post pandemic. How integral are values and purpose to how you run your business?

Kirsty: So it's been the story, been the platform from which I've built the business. So when I started Milk and Honey, I wanted to create an agency that behaved a little bit differently. I wanted to create an agency that didn't sell hours, but instead was able to sell ideas, work on strategy and be a real partner. I wanted to only work with organisations that, had a positive impact on people and planet.

Kirsty: And so therefore be quite picky from that perspective. I wanted to work with organisations that were ambitious. Now I would imagine most organisations like to call themselves ambitious, but I wanted to work with organisations that were going somewhere, because that way around it allowed both myself, selfishly, and the team that I was building around me to be able to continue to learn and to progress.

Kirsty: And I wanted to create an organisation that could demonstrate its values and bring them to life. So for us, there were five founding values. The first was around bravery, let's not ever be afraid to try something and just because it doesn't work, you never lose, right? You either win or you learn. And so I think from that perspective, that was important to us. Energy, I am one of these types of people, my husband always says that I have no dial, I'm a switch, I'm either on and I'm full on or I'm off. And so for me being able to have lots of energy giving individuals around me was important.

Kirsty: Respect is hugely important, I think as a mother and as a wife and as somebody who plays a role in our community. I think, being respectful of all different types of backgrounds, ages, cultural sensitivities, neurodiverse sensitivities. Both my husband and both my sons are, neurodiverse.

Kirsty: And so I wanted to be able to create somewhere where people could be celebrated, not where they're tolerated, where different ideas and ways of thinking could come together and we could all respect one another. I then wanted to create somewhere where collaboration was really important, I think, especially in the type of organisation that I'm part of in terms of being a professional services consultancy, very often, some divisions come in when there are separate P& Ls. And so I've constructed an international business where actually everyone is paid from the top company. So therefore it's encouraging, everybody to work together, irrespective of which division or which country they sit in.

Kirsty: And then the last one was passion, let's make sure that nobody has to do anything that they're not excited about. Very often again in consultative roles you're not necessarily always given the choice as to what you're working on.

Kirsty: And I wanted to make sure that, nobody worked on more than five clients, that nobody worked on anything that they weren't passionate about. And so anyone can ask off any client at any time for any reason, in fact, they don't need a reason. And I think that was really important. So then as we started, I say we, it was only me at the time, as again, I came out with those founding values, then I started to think about some of the behaviours that would bring that to life. And then beyond that, as we've evolved, I've looked for external ways to prove that because clearly you cannot say about yourself that you are successful or that you are truly worthy or that you're respectful, you need other ways and means to, demonstrate and find that out. And during the last six years, we've been able to really evidence all of those pieces.

Sudha: Yeah, Absolutely. What, according to you Kirsty, is the elephant in the room in our industry?

Kirsty: Gosh, well, I think for me it's still just a lack of diversity. It's really interesting that when you look at the percentages of men that are running organisations versus the percentage of men that are in communications it's still wildly skewed. And I know that some of that is women have historically taken on primary carer roles and so have maybe left the workforce, but then let's get them back in again. These are amazing individuals that have got so much to share. Also, I think that historically, it's been a very white dominated industry, and that is more and more telling when you look at the availability of talent at different levels, and the more senior you're looking at, the less available talent in market there is.

Kirsty: So again, I think it's really interesting and appropriate that we look a little wider, that we don't just look in our own backyard in terms of of attracting new talent. So we look into journalism, we look into other forms of marketing, we look into other forms of management and strategy roles and try and invite people from that perspective. And then another area for me is more from a socio economic perspective. Very often people from a less advantaged background, don't necessarily know about communications as a career. And when they find out about it, they don't necessarily know how to get into it, what the access point is, and what their earning potential is.

Kirsty: And then when they get into it, studies from the likes of socially mobile, show that actually they don't progress as quickly. And so I think that's a confidence piece as well. So it's great to see these new programs coming in. That are directly tackling some of these barriers that still sadly exist in our industry.

Sudha: Absolutely. Diversity and social mobility, all these are big challenges in our industry. And considering that we are living in a world that is in a constant state of flux. I mean, the world has always been in a state of flux, but with social media and how connected we are, everything seems more immediate and everything is evolving around us. There are so many crises that we can see that touch each one of us and are touching our industry. So what do you think would be the three biggest challenges facing our industry today.

Kirsty: I think you make a very good point around social media and I think the macro element there perhaps is around this idea of immediacy and response. And I think there's an opportunity for us to just be a little bit more considered. So if you break that down for me, that's two things there, the first of which is using technology, using AI to help make sure that we can separate the important from the critical and make sure that we know where we're putting our, human endeavours and our attention.

Kirsty: But then also, I think it's also about just helping people to build their own personal resilience. And so they don't feel this constant bombardment of information so that they can filter a little bit more. And I think actually as communicators that's rather our job as well to do some of that filtering and reframing. So I think that is definitely one side of things that like time management, information management. Then I think also there's, obviously in the last couple of years since we've moved more typically as employers and employees into a hybrid workplace, then that requires a different type of leadership style and it requires a different type of internal motivation for all of us.

Kirsty: So those of us that are more, extrovert get our energy from outside of ourselves and so not having other people around actually can be quite difficult, but those that are more introverted that get their energies internally. Obviously, that's quite a nice mix, but we still need to come together to balance one another out. The point of having diverse teams with people with different educational backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds, different academic backgrounds, is so that we can all learn from one another and if we're not, therefore, still working in a very intertwined manner, then we're not getting the full advantage of those diverse teams. But they don't have to always be in the same room, but I think that making the hybrid model work is another challenge that we're dealing with right now.

Sudha: Yeah. And do you think that this is just a supplementary thing that I'm thinking of is, do you think that you earlier spoke about the P& L model which puts a stress on this thing. Do you think that the agency model that has existed so far really needs to change in some way?

Kirsty: Oh, completely. I mean, it's already quite a lot of discussion in our own trade media at the moment where it's like, okay, those organisations that have been billing on hours, now the AI is coming into play and generative AI specifically, then how's that going to work , clients aren't going to pay in the same way.

Kirsty: So there needs to be a rethink there. I do also think that as agencies have evolved, especially more international agencies, then they may have numerous P&Ls. So not only would they have their own country P&Ls, they may well have sectoral or divisional P&Ls. And again, as we're moving towards more and more integrated comms and integrated marketing, that doesn't necessarily encourage those behaviours.

Kirsty: So again, back to the earlier point that I made around you can see what people are trying to do with some of the way that businesses have been set up, but actually the processes that they've put in place sometimes, cause them to trip up a little. And I think having multiple P& Ls is part of that problem.

Kirsty: So the way that we've got around that in Milk and Honey is we're actually an employee ownership trust. So I'm surrounded by my bosses every day, which is wonderful. keeps me grounded, keeps it real. But what's nice about that is that everybody after they've been with Milk and Honey for a year becomes a co owner in the business and their shares are held centrally in a trust.

Kirsty: And so they've been all benefit from profit share at the end of the financial year. So what happens there is that everybody owns everything. So the Singapore team doesn't just own Singapore, they own Singapore and Germany and UK and the US. So therefore we're always looking out for one another, we're always looking to put the most appropriate, best skilled and most motivated teams in place to deliver. But it also allows us to do truly joined up global work. So for us that's been something we've been quite purposeful in terms of putting that infrastructure in place.

Sudha: Yeah, that's very interesting, you've answered one of the questions I was going to ask you after on the drivers for Milk and Money moving from being an LLP to an employee ownership trust. And so clearly you are looking at the future and you've made this decision.

Kirsty: Yes. So, when I set it up, obviously there was only me on my own I but knew that I wanted it to be a shared ownership organisation. And naively at the time, I thought, Ooh, the best way to do that as an LLP is a limited liability partnership. Quite a number of them exist within our industry. And they tend to work quite well. However, what we found there was that that's fine if you want to have a limited number of co owners in the business.

Kirsty: But if you're actually looking for much wider co ownership, that model isn't excellent. So it took us a couple of years to find the right model actually that for us being the EOT, so that's an employee ownership trust. It's something that only really truly exists in the UK. And it was only put in place in 2014.

Kirsty: So It's still relatively new. I think there's less than 750 companies in the UK that are EOTs. Although interesting to see that there's more and more PR agencies that are going that way. But what's nice about that is it's pretty much admin free. It's not free to set up though. I mean, for us, it was a true consideration.

Kirsty: It cost us about 80, 000 to change the legal structure. So it is something that you really need to think about.

Sudha: But it was something that was aligned with your core values and purpose right from the start, you were on the journey and you came there. Moving from there during the pandemic, our industry , we got a seat at the table, so to speak and we were able to advise more CEOs and boards and they look towards us to show them the direction and show them the path and what could happen. So we took on roles as consultants and advisors, as trusted advisors.

Sudha: How do we ensure that we continue to have a seat at the table? Because that seems to be disappearing again.

Kirsty: Well it's really interesting. So I started in a consumer environment, then went into tech, then into brand, then into digital, then into corporate then into financial and M&A. And what was really interesting about that is that throughout that journey, one of the pieces that I found out is that if you find yourself working into the CEO or through the CFO, then they see you as strategic advisors, they truly see you as strategic advisor. And as such, any change in strategic advice is sometimes seen externally as a bit of a wobble. Whereas if you go up through more the CMO, then they see it...

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A while ago I invited Samantha Ndiwalana, a Senior Researcher at World Benchmarking Alliance to talk about the pivotal role of the private sector in meeting the SDGs. The WBA maps 2000 of the worlds most influential companies. The influence is staggering, the companies have over $36.5 trillion in revenue and employ more than 97 million people across 85 countries.

How are these companies identified? It starts with looking at the seven transformations needed to meet UN SDGs: Social, Food and Agriculture, Decarbonisation and Energy, Nature, Digital, Urban and Financial. The WBA then go on to identify the 2000 keystone companies within these industries based on 5 principles that goes beyond just size and also looks at impact and influence

It is a tall order to challenging the prevailing bias that leading companies are based only in Western countries or the global north to ensure that the right companies are included in that list. Samantha and I discussed this and more in our conversation

👉🏾 Why is there less representation from the global south? Is it because we equate size with influence

👉🏾 Engaging with the power and influence of state owned entities

👉🏾 We discussed a recent report that spoke about ‘emerging markets have longer runaway and steeper slope for SDG improvement’ (according to an American PE firm)?

👉🏾 The big emerging challenge: the sustainability information gap

👉🏾 The reality that companies from developing markets generally receive limited funding to support SDG focused investments

👉🏾 Are companies from developing countries less sustainable or is it a measurement issue?

We also discussed why achieving SDGs in emerging markets is set to become more important going forward - it is fairly straightforward actually………..

To listen to the episode head to the link in the comments 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning Samantha. Thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in the room Podcast today.

Samantha: Good morning, Sudha. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Sudha: Let's just get started with the questions. Give us a quick introduction to who you are and what you do at the WBA.

Samantha: Yes, gladly.

Samantha: So I work as a senior researcher and company engagement lead at the WBA. My focuses are digital inclusion and that's looking at some of the world's most influential tech companies, how well, or maybe not so well they're doing in terms of making sure technology is ethical, fair, safe, sustainable for everyone.

My other focus is the SDG 2000, and we'll speak a bit about that today. And that is the universe of companies that we look at, at the WBA. So, managing that list, putting it together, and just making sure it's representative of an ever changing world.

Sudha: How critical is the private sector to meeting the SDGs? We are now in the decade of reporting so to speak and there are not too many years before we get to 2030. How critical is the private sector to meeting the SDGs?

Samantha: Oh, I would say they're quite pivotal. So if the central promise of 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development, around which the Sustainable Development Goals are planned, if the central promise of that is to leave no one behind, then one of the ways we get there is by leaving no company behind.

Samantha: So companies are quite pivotal, and not just the companies that we might be used to everyday companies or products, but also companies that are quite big, quite influential whose name you might not know, or might not have heard of. Just because a company is always in the news or is popular doesn't mean that these are the only companies that are pivotal to meeting the SDGs.

Sudha: And how does the WBA define the list of 2000 most influential companies that are to be assessed? You've mentioned that it is important to make a choice, not to leave any of the big companies or any of the influential companies behind. Is there a bias towards companies based in the global north because we are more familiar with their reputation, their size, their products and what they do.

Samantha: That is a really great point. So to answer the first part, how we go about finding these influential companies, what we call the world's most influential companies, is first we take a transformational approach. So we look at the world and we break it down into seven system transformations, such as social, nature, digital, financial and these transformations look at what we need to do to transform the world, to drive the world towards achieving the 2030 agenda and meeting the sustainable development goals.

Samantha: So once we have those transformations and we've looked at the industries that were pivotal to influencing those transformations, either in a positive or in a negative way. And then once we had that list of industries, we then dove deeper into the companies. And to do this, we had an approach which looks at whether companies dominate global production. We tried to have a look at their supply chain, their influence on global governance and institutions, these are just a few of the things we would look at. But something we found when we were looking at available information, because one of the big things about us is we're not trying to reinvent the wheel, we're quite happy to lean on existing knowledge and existing expertise. But one of the things we found was just by taking an approach where you look at the biggest companies if you would equate influence with revenue or number of employees, as pure markers of how big these companies are, then you would start to look at a majority of companies from the global north and from China.

Samantha: And so we saw this happening and it became clear to us how important it is to make sure that the list is as broad, diverse and balanced as we can make it. Because while these companies and these regions the United States, China, Europe, while these regions, these countries are quite important, they aren't the only ones in the world.

Samantha: And if we want the list to look at the global influence of companies, so that we're leaving no one behind, we needed to take active steps to make sure that we're including companies, not just from the global North, also the global South and when we say global South, not just the big players like China.

Sudha: So you've answered a part of the question that I was going to ask next, which is, do we equate size with influence, and is that why there is less representation from the global south?

Samantha: Yes. So often size is equated with influence, as I had just mentioned. But we find that influence can be thought of in other ways, not just the pure markers of size, like revenue or employees.

Samantha: And one of the ways you can start to see the influence of companies is the number of people they impact. If you start to look at their supply chains and see where those connections lead to. So a company could be based in one country, say South Africa or India. But their roots, if we could call them that, spread around the world.

Samantha: And that's one way of thinking of the influence of companies.

Sudha: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know from having lived and worked in India that state owned entities, as well as family businesses are some of the most influential businesses in that particular geography, but also I believe across other geographies also.

Sudha: So clearly from the SDG perspective, they are critical and they need to be engaged with. How do you ensure that you include them in the conversation?

Samantha: That's a really important point. And as you say, it's not just in India, from my experience in South Africa, Uganda, and in other countries as well.

Samantha: We see the importance of family owned businesses, we see the importance of small to medium sized businesses, not just the big companies on influencing change within that country or within that region. Making sure that we're reaching out to these companies is quite important and is something we prioritise at the WBA.

Samantha: We do this via company engagement. So if companies are being assessed in the benchmarks, we have different events such as webinars, trainings to reach out to the companies to discuss the SDGs, the World Benchmarking Alliance, our approach with them. We also partner with governments, so any governments that are having events where these companies might be involved, that's one of the ways we're able to make connections with the companies to bring them along this journey.

Samantha: But one of the most important ways we do this is through our alliance. So at the World Benchmarking Alliance, we believe in a collaborative approach and the allies play a very important part in this. They're global, they are big organisations and institutions, such as GRI, that's quite big in the reporting space.

Samantha: But we also have a lot of more local focused organisations and NGOs, and we rely on them to make sure that we're taking into account different local perspectives and that we're connecting with these family owned businesses or more regional or country focused businesses that might not be at these big international events.

Sudha: Okay, that's very interesting to know. So you know I was doing some background reading before putting together the questions and I read this American PE firm report and other reports also and data that indicate that emerging markets have a longer runway and steeper slope for SDG improvement.

Sudha: Would you agree with that statement?

Samantha: Yes, I would to a certain extent. So if we look at the findings from some of our benchmarks, we see that on average, companies from developed countries have stronger performance than those from developing countries and so that's one way of looking at it.

Samantha: But we also understand that there are a lot of things happening in the background. For example developing countries might have other focuses or priorities than developed countries just in the very nature of the issues that they are facing and the stage of development that they're at. So levels of poverty, poor health care outcomes, low levels of unemployment, those might be things that companies are focused on. And so they might have programs around these issues to try and help address these problems within their countries. And even though some of those might fall within social, the S of ESG, they might not necessarily think of them as ESG related projects.

Sudha: That's very true. Would you say that the sustainability information gap in emerging markets is a big challenge? There has been a lot of progress in the past decade but there is still much to be done. What are your thoughts?

Samantha: Yes, definitely, it's a big challenge and it's starting to take off a bit if we keep thinking about the longer runway and the steeper slope.

Samantha: But as I said before, one of the things creating this longer runway and steeper slope is that the focus might be elsewhere. And in some cases, the laws, the policies, the regulations aren't in place. And we find that having these laws, policies, regulations in place goes a long way to influence company behaviour because the parameters, the guidelines are already there about what information you should share and the incentives are also there about what information you should share. If you don't have that guidance, it is still very possible to share information to counter that in sustainability information gap, but it does make it a bit more difficult.

Sudha: Okay. So you know linked to what we've been talking about not just the private sector, but large state owned entities and family owned multinationals still require access to international capital markets to fuel the growth or innovation. However, companies from developing markets generally receive limited funding to support SDG focused investments, even though they have in depth knowledge of the situation in the countries in which they operate, you know, what is going to work on the ground. With the rising demand for ESG compliance, is this an opportunity where the investors and funding organisations start taking that into consideration? That they can be a good way to go about meeting our goals.

Samantha: Yes, definitely. So I think that when new legislation comes into play, there are two ways of thinking about it or seeing it. So some companies might see that and understand that there are more requirements on how they might disclose or different levels that they need to meet and they might be a bit scared, intimidated, they might think that this is an extra burden or perhaps a waste of their time.

Samantha: So instead of thinking of it as a burden, if you think of it as an opportunity, this is an opportunity to align with international standards, international disclosure, such that they can make their efforts, all the work that they might already be doing around ESG more visible to investors, and that will help them generate investment and also make it more visible to other stakeholders who might want to support in other ways.

Sudha: Yeah, that is so true. So it's a bit about the journey, it is a bit about the information gap. It is about then being proactive and adopting some of the reporting requirements so that investors are more confident about investing or putting in their money in those markets.

Samantha: Yes, Exactly

Sudha: So I just want to clarify this that our companies from developing countries less sustainable or is it a measurement issue or is it where they are on their journey?

Samantha: I would think it's more a measurement issue and where they are on their journey. So I guess it's quite common to see these images of factories in a developing country that are producing whatever sort of product or chemical and you see them shooting smog into the air, rivers are polluted, and it just goes on and on and on. And while that might take place, that's not necessarily the standard. That's not how all of it cities or all areas in developing countries look. I can speak from the South African perspective and say that there are companies that are green, that are sustainable, that are looking at things like solar energy.

Samantha: For example, and I'm sure from the Indian perspective you can name a lot of examples as well. So it's not that these companies or these areas are inherently less sustainable. I would say that part of it is a measurement issue because they are focused on different issues than some companies in developed countries, their programs or efforts towards sustainability might not be exactly the same.

Samantha: But if you are focused on health issues such as tuberculosis or the HIV AIDS pandemic, that is also social work that's also sustainable development work. It just might not fit into the standard ESG reporting disclosure approach. So these are the types of things we need to take into account.

Sudha: Yeah, I was just thinking about that. It's also perhaps what we measure them on and because, their parameters may be different from what the parameters for developed countries or companies in developed countries are slightly different. and you're still moving on the path, but what your priorities are different.

Sudha: And I think that understanding possibly, also needs to be made across the world, not just for developing country, but across the world on how we frame not just our measurement questions, but the narrative, like you said when you talk about developing countries and you have these images - smoke spewing out of a factory or a river that is like really dirty. And that becomes the narrative that is stuck. So we probably need to progress from there. We are on our last question. Why is achieving SDGs very, very critical for emerging markets as we progress towards 2030 and beyond.

Samantha: Well, I guess first off, it's the idea that we don't want to leave anyone behind.

Samantha: So when we say we want a sustainable world, we want a safe world, we should also be thinking in terms of inclusivity an equal world. And that means that progress happening in developed countries exclusively isn't what we should be aiming for. We should also be considering that developing countries have progress to make, they have a role to play in driving the world towards a more sustainable future. And another reason why achieving the SDGs is quite important in emerging markets is the vulnerability, the unique vulnerability that these markets, these countries face in terms of the climate crisis, for example. We see that developing countries are particularly vulnerable to the negative effects of climate change, such as natural disasters, excessive heat, like we've seen over the past few months, the news coverage is focused on America, the U. S. and Europe, but high levels of heat were seen in Africa, were seen in Asia as well. And these might be areas where people can't just go to the shops and buy an air con and install it in their homes or buy extra water.

Samantha: There are unique challenges and vulnerabilities there that we need to understand, respect and take into account.

Sudha: So I just want to ask an additional question. What is it that motivates you about this work that you do? It's not very easy, right? But what is it that motivates you and drives your interest?

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As a podcast host I meet so many inspiring people - I recently met with Neha Arora, who quit her job after working for nearly a decade in the private sector to set up Planet Abled (2016) with a vision to make travel/tourism accessible and inclusive for people with disabilities. Today, Planet Abled has grown to become a destination developer and ecosystem enabler.

Her business is rooted in authenticity, a gap in the market identified because of her lived experience. As a child she and parents (her mother is a wheel chair user and her father is blind) did not go on holidays or travel, she naively attributed it to not having enough money. Travelling with her parents when she started working opened her eyes to the reality - they chose not to travel due to the societal stigmas around disability and also inaccessibility at every stage of the travel journey.

In this eye opening episode we spoke about the series of side hustles Neha had before Planet Abled, the Indian travel and tourism landscape (from an accessibility lens), societal prejudice, assumptions that people with disabilities do not work or have money, that it is ok for make decisions on their behalf, lack of vision by investors…….👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Quitting her job and becoming an entrepreneur

👉🏾 The need to mainstream accessible and inclusive travel, and not create a parallel industry

👉🏾 Census data and the reality that people with disabilities are hidden in Indian society

👉🏾 The demand and actual numbers of people with disabilities travelling

👉🏾 Awareness, attitudes and affordability - the three A’s that influence travel decision

👉🏾 The biggest challenges facing the industry

👉🏾 Policy and legislation

👉🏾 What accessible and inclusive travel/tourism would look like in an ideal world.

We also spoke about travel and tourism industry workforce training and sensitisation, the challenges she facing running her business, role models and what drives her.

To listen to the episode head to Apple podcasts or any other podcasting platform.

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Neha. Thank you for making time to be a guest on The Elephant in The Room podcast today.

Neha: Thank you so much Sudha for inviting me and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Sudha: Brilliant, To get started, let's start with a quick introduction. Tell us a bit about yourself.

Neha: Well, I'm Neha Arora and I'm the founder of Planet Abled, which makes tourism accessible and inclusive for persons with disabilities and the elderly. And I started because of my own personal experiences, because I never travelled as a child. And my parents who are now in their seventies and eighties, they never travelled until a few years ago. So after I started earning, the first thing I did was to save some money and travel, only to be disappointed by the inaccessibility and the societal stigmas related to it.

Neha: So we started off as a travel service provider and gradually grew up into a destination developer and an ecosystem enabler where we help businesses as well to become accessible and inclusive.

Sudha: Okay, that's very interesting. So you've said a bit about what PlanetAbled is. So it's very difficult, I understand when you start on your professional journey to actually quit a good job and to become an entrepreneur. And to become an entrepreneur at any stage is a difficult thing, it's not in our psyche, it's not in our mindset. So what were the drivers for you.

Neha: Yeah. So Planet Abled is not my first venture. So along with my corporate job, which lasted about nine years with various IT and telecom companies, I was having side hustles all the time. And just for the fun sake, because I found a corporate job to be too boring. So I was like, let's do something, this is an opportunity. Let's make some money here, and this is a gap. So every year of my corporate, I was trying and launching something new and sometimes I gave up because I lost interest, sometimes I shut things down because I thought, oh, I'm not the right person to do it. Or sometimes I ran out of money or sometimes there were different reasons for abandoning different projects, but Planet Abled actually kind of simmered over the years. So when I started working and we went for our first holiday, and it didn't go as planned, and what happened was wherever we were going I was getting into arguments about accessibility that why it's not accessible.

Neha: And one fight at a temple turned into a mob fight because the priest made it about religion, like asking for access . And that was kind of the tipping point when my parents said, we are not going anywhere because you fight anywhere. Because they are like most individuals with disabilities are conditioned to accept this is not for you and that's okay. Yeah. I mean, I was that person, why it's not okay. And so this was, I think 2009 and I thought they'll get over it and they'll get back, but they did not. And then gradually I started looking for solutions not to find it. And then I was like, okay, perhaps I should do something about it. But because of my starting and closing business trend, I cannot abandon this, if I'd have to do it, there will never be a plan B. If I do it, I'll go all in, because this is not about money, this is not about fun and this is not about just doing something exciting, because you'll be creating hope in so many people and then you cannot abandon them, because they've kept their trust in you.

Neha: So I think for two to three years I did my homework, to convince myself that it would be a financially sustainable model and that I can pull it off. So I sat at airports counting the number of disabled people coming out because India has no data about disabled travellers. Still doesn't.

Neha: And talked to concierge of hotels who are there at the airport to receive travellers. Like how often do they travel? Do they travel for work or leisure or stuff? And to my surprise, there were not enough people travelling. And then I went into the community, like what sort of experiences they were having, whether they were travelling or not travelling at all, what are the challenges and what is their ideal solution? And does that make business sense? Like, would I be able to pull it off as something financially sustainable? So then once I was convinced, then I was at a point like, yeah, this makes sense, I'm convinced like if not now then when. Like, you know every day sitting in Adobe office, I was like, nothing's gonna change, my parents are retired, I have a lifestyle to support I have no savings because I burnt all of them in previous businesses. But it was still like, I'll take it one day at a time and it paid off. I mean it's been the most amazing journey of my life till date.

Sudha: I can imagine. And I think, you should not forget about the kind of experience that you got running those businesses, even though they may not have succeeded, it prepared you for where you came, where you started your journey.

Sudha: And probably , this business idea was the most authentic, most aligned to your purpose. And it was like you say, whenever you have a plan B, things don't work. I think entrepreneurs just need to go all in. Otherwise it just doesn't work.

Sudha: Yeah, it's like tragic to hear the statistics and of course we're all aware about how how unusual it is for people to travel with disabilities. Globally there is an estimated, 1.3 billion people with significant disabilities and that is one in six of us, right? And as per the Indian census, it is just 2.2% or 2.68 crore. It sounds like a ridiculous figure really. And so my question to you is, would you agree that the numbers are perhaps not right, but also that people with disabilities are hidden in our society?

Neha: So both the things actually, so answering to the first part of the question, when the last census was done that time, only seven disabilities were recognised in there. Autism was not a disability at that time. We recognised as a disability only when the new RPWD law was passed in December, 2016, and which came into force in 2017. Now we have 21 disability. So there is a huge leap in the number of disabilities that are recognised.

Neha: It still does not cover all the aspects of disabled people, but still it covers a lot of them. Even some invisible disabilities. And also the world average is like 15%, how can India have 2.2%, it does not make sense. And India has the maximum number of blind people in the world, and because blindness. Most of it is preventable in India, it's lack of basic healthcare, basically cataract has been the biggest, reason for people going blind in India, and so the number is definitely not correct. And we should go by the world average and perhaps more because going by the kind of lifestyle or living conditions we have in India, we are supposed to have more disabled people, and of course it is stigmatised because even families hide that.

Neha: Even people themselves hide that they have an invisible disability. In India, how many times are we talking about children having a ADHD or a learning disability? We still consider, okay, it's only wheel chair accessibility and then also it stigmatised like, okay, why do you have to go to a shopping mall to shop? I'll get it for you. Like l've had such horrendous experiences with some people, that they have never sent them to school. They're just born into wealthy families and the person with disability has never stepped out of the house in years. The neighbours don't know that there is a person with disability that lives in their house.

Sudha: Yeah. I have seen that within my family. (I asked to edit the part about the person with visual impairment - please delete) People didn't want to talk about it. People didn't wanna tell other people about it, with the stigma associated. With my aunt and my mother, they had polio, Aunt more visibly, and my Mother less visibly, but it is such a stigma, my God.

I totally agree with you. And it's a very sad thing and I think the more we talk about all of these things and the more we sort of spotlight issues.

Neha: Yeah, and just to add, I mean, in India, even the elderly, if you acquire a disability because of age, it's not even considered a disability. I mean, people don't even accept themselves. "I wear hearing aid, but I'm not disabled". They'll lose their vision or their mobility, but they're not disabled.

Neha: I was asked when my parents of my schoolmates got to know about me. My parents, they were like, who pays your school fees? I was asked this question because there is an assumption that people with disabilities don't work.

Sudha: Yeah. I had a really good colleague when I was at Uni. Raman who was such a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant person. And there were quite a few people with visual impairment at college. But you don't know what happened to those people because they're not visible in the workplaces or not visible when you go into a mall or when you are outside somewhere, you don't see people with disabilities in India.

Neha: Yeah. That's sad, but employment wise, I think it has been, improving like much, much faster because India does not have a disability benefit like the UK or US or countries in Europe where you have a disability benefit on which if you are not able to work, you can live on most benefits. India doesn't have that. I mean, yeah, we have that's like 200 rupees to 2,400 rupees, depending upon which state you are in per month.

Sudha: Yeah, that's like really not going to do anything.

Neha: So people had to struggle to find jobs. So now even the MNCs, like IBM, Microsoft, Cisco in India are hiring person with disabilities in white collar jobs. I have a friend who is a blind person and he is a cybersecurity expert. I have a certified CFA, who is a business analyst with Deloitte. So they are growing in numbers, and this is very, very refreshing to see, but when you, talk about social life.

Sudha: Yeah, I'll speak about this to you after the podcast because a lot of what I have noticed is that companies want to be seen as doing DEI and being inclusive, but for most people it is like really challenging just to get past the first screening, because most of the time they want you to not have any visible disabilities or visible problem. Maybe you're a wheelchair user and don't have anything that's going to impact how you work, which, they don't want to make any reasonable adjustments as one calls it.

Neha: True.

Sudha: And let's move on to the next question. Is there data on the number of people with disabilities travelling and how big is the demand? Because you said that you were sitting at airports counting the number of people who were coming out from the airport.

Neha: So, as per my knowledge and experience, four countries in the world monitor travellers with disabilities data. Four countries in the whole world, And these are independent organisations that track most of the time - US, Australia, UK and Germany. But their focus also is majorly on persons who are wheelchair users or mobility impaired. So in 2018 or 19, I'm not sure of the year, Americans with disabilities, only wheelchair users, so this was done by an independent organisation in the US, this research and they spent 58 billion US dollars on accessible travel in one year.

Neha: And we are just talking wheelchair users at the moment, which are like only 10% to 12% of the disabled population. So we are not even counting the 88% to 90% of disabled people, still the yearly spend is 58 billion. So that disposable income of disabled people and their families and friends is $13.1 trillion. That's the amount of money that we are talking about, and we are not creating products or services that can cater to them because we have our own prejudice that these people don't travel or they don't have the money.

Sudha: Or we are just used to doing things in a way and we don't want to move, it'a a huge opportunity, it's a huge opportunity. According to you Neha, what are the biggest accessibility challenges facing the Indian travel and tourism industry? Yeah. I mean, I'm not an expert, but I can see a lot of obvious ones.

Neha: I'm just thinking where do I start? So I think the biggest challenges first, recognising that this is a market. Recognising the fact that this is a market that you need to create products and services for that is important in the first place. That is still missing. So when I started like almost eight years ago now, and it has changed like earlier hotels used to say they don't travel, why are you even coming? ? Now they're at least talking about it, let us know how do we make it accessible? They're still not investing major money into it, but yes, there's a major shift.

Neha: Last year the Ministry of Tourism released draft to guidelines for accessible tourism in India, and it was a lot academic, so I gave them a whole new document of practical applications like pro bono. And now both the documents are nowhere to be seen, but it's changing in a way because of the RPWD Act that we have. Like the America has ADA, which recently completed, 33 years. Ours is like only six years in the making, so that's why you see at least some ramp somewhere, at least for the compliance sake being put. Just to meet the compliance at least the government organisations are doing it, but then it is so much more than just a ramp that you put in, when it comes to accessibility.

Neha: The websites are not accessible, the travel content that you see on social media or on website, the fancy videos and the promotional brand videos, they, none of them have audio description or captions. Or they're not made keeping in mind people with sensory disabilities that some kind of trigger must be there or should be a warning that people should watch or not watch. Museums, everything is still behind a glass wall, so there is no access we are talking about for people who are blind. We are not talking about the lights and the sounds in the museum, we are not talking about easy language guides for people who are deaf or have learning disabilities. That whole idea, that accessibility in tourism is so much more, we are not there. Airlines have nothing. It has to start from the point, "Okay, I as a traveller with disability, want to travel", the thought. Now I go to Google and find a website, but I find no accessible content in travel, about the destination. Okay. I still figure it out, but then I have to find the transport, whether I travel by train or air or by bus. None of the intercity buses are accessible for wheelchair users. I mean, you give them a free discount, like, okay, have a free ticket. But what does a free ticket do, if they cannot get into the bus.

Sudha: Yeah, that's true.

Neha: We have the largest rail network in the world and it's not accessible for wheelchairs. Zero. Like what are we talking? And then when you go to accommodations, only four-star and above have one room which is wheelchair accessible. For other disabilities, we are not even talking or thinking. And they're also, for compliance sake, once I have got the shower panel removed while the guest checked in the hotel, because she could not go inside the shower area to take a shower, and this was a five-star property certified accessible.

Sudha: This is like so terrible, and I know that a lot of the global chains do that because of global compliance needs. And if they can cut corners in the Indian context, they will and they do. But I think so much needs to be done. This is like so shocking that we are keeping people away because they cannot access. Yeah, just at every point of the journey there are...

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Shownotes

After the initial high of 2020/21 DEIB/A or whatever you would like to call it, is facing rough going - budgets are being cut, dedicated DEI staff are being sacked or are leaving in droves. Organisations are using the cost of living crisis and economic slowdown as an excuse which doesn’t really make sense - are they easily expendable? What has not helped is that people have mistaken the high volume of talk(chatter) for action, all that virtue signalling and diversity washing has resulted in conversation overload and fatigue.

I recently interviewed Barbara Philips Chair of the Race and Ethnicity Equity Board (REEB) PRCA about the state of representation of the the ‘global majority’ (Black and ethnic minorities in common parlance) in the C-suite and in Boardrooms in our industry The first question I asked Barbara was if like the ‘State of the Nation’ report (social mobility), we should have a state of Board Representation in the UK and the rest of the world? And if it is time to hold companies accountable through transparency on data for progress or lack of - because data doesn’t lie (Actually it does occasionally when it is used selectively for greenwashing).

Fortunately, in 2023 no one is contesting the reality. The more important question now is how do we increase representation especially considering the industry’s reputation for homophily (birds of a feather etc.) on one side and the broken rung, or the glass ceiling that talent groups from global majority constantly have to face. And the absolute reality that we are not promoting nor nurturing enough leaders through the ranks.

At REEB we are determined to spotlight the vacuum, the lack of opportunities for talented leaders and the absence of creativity and imagination by the industry on how it can engage and nurture talent who can rightly take their seat at the high table or in the boardroom.

We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Why Board representation is a focus area for REEB

👉🏾 Barriers for board representation/C-suite for Black and global majority

👉🏾 Why senior opportunities continue to elude talented global majority talent. Why are talent leaders and recruiters unable to engage with this untapped potential?

👉🏾 Shadow Boards: It was a resounding ‘No’ from Barbara

👉🏾 Steps organisations can take to get on the journey

We also spoke about role models and there is a call to action for the PR Industry.

For an industry that aspires to have a seat in the Board Room and the ear of senior leadership - it is perhaps time to change the narrative, move away from ‘spin’ and take action for change…….

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good afternoon, Barbara. Wonderful to have you here today, and we're going to be discussing something that is very, very close to both your heart and my heart. And this is about senior representation, representation at the leadership level, board level representation for black and ethnic minority talent within our industry, and of course beyond, but let's limit our ambit to the PR industry at this point in time. To get started with the first question, like the state of the nation report, which talks about social mobility and looks at tracking social mobility in different ways now, rather than just looking at the number of people who've gotten into jobs, do you believe we should have a state of board representation in the UK and probably the rest of the world?

Barbara: Absolutely. I mean I've got a couple of theories on that. I think that the CBI as it was before, I mean we can't talk about it now 'cause that's another place. But the CBI as it was before, they really should have taken up the mantel and the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry and there's all of those regional boards, they should have taken up the mantle but clearly, , they didn't. And then we had the McGregor report in 2017 which actually says exactly this, there should be looking at ethnicity pay gaps and looking at board representation. So it's all been there so people just don't want to take up the mantle. So I'm absolutely for this kind of state of the...... whether it's in another report or one on its own, it absolutely should be there 'cause people need to know the stark reality, of what our boards look like, which are kind of male, stale and pale, which they have been forever.

Barbara: And then this whole piece about representation, I'm interested to know what it is we want represented, 'cause let's not pretend we just want some brown faces. Because we have to look at our government, don't we? We have to look at our government over the last few years. We have lots of lovely brown faces, but their politics are really not helping the majority, they're not helping society, they're helping a small elite. So when we say board representation, we don't just mean brown faces, meaning people who have the proper ethos to help change things, move things forward, not take on some people with brown faces who are keeping the status quo, who are gatekeepers, which is what's happened with the government, essentially.

Barbara: So, it's two areas. One, it could have been taken up by any number of organisations and two, let's make sure it's not just some shiny faces on the front of your recruitment catalog. It really is people who are gonna push things forward and make changes, and if you're going to recruit people from the global majority, those are the ones that you really should be looking for, not ones to keep the status quo.

Sudha: So you've also answered a part of my second question, which is, why is board representation an area of focus for REEB? Clearly, what we've seen in our society, in government, they've left a lot to be desired, it is about people who believe in their politics. So it's not necessarily people who believe in equity and inclusion for all.

Barbara: Because

Sudha: people who believe in continuing the privileges of the classes that are continuing to govern and rule over the country.

Barbara: Exactly.

Sudha: Yeah, but do you think board representation or senior leadership is critical also from a point of view for people, for our next generation, for the cohorts that are coming in to see more role models?

Barbara: Absolutely I do. Because ultimately, not only REEB but I think every decent human being wants to go and work in an inclusive culture that's acceptable, that's accepting rather, it's psychologically safe. And we know all white boards who have had the reins forever, they've had the power, but they can't seem to make boards and environments and cultures safe for everybody. So, absolutely, I think it's really important. I looked at some figures on the National Census from 2021, and that put the 46.2% of the population in London, this is for London particularly, are black, Asian, mixed, and others - their term. And also it said that the urban areas, around the country, but specifically London has the sort of median age of 25 to 29. Now, what that's saying to me is that's a talent pool,. And I'm just using London as an example because I didn't go through all of the major cities, but if that is your talent pool okay? If that's where you are going to get your future talent from, if you're blocking those people.

Barbara: One, when they come into your organisation, they're not seeing themselves, so it isn't psychologically safe and it isn't inclusive. But two, that is the future. I think people will just need to get used to the idea that the future C-Suite isn't going to look like them and I know a lot of people struggle with that, even today they're struggling with it, it's not going to look like me, it's going to come from another quarter. And I think this is how our industry, having that board representation, having that pathway clear is how our industry stays relevant. I mean, the world changes, societies' changes, so does the talent pool and unless the leaders now give opportunities to people who don't look like them, who are different, , they're gonna be dinosaurs. It's going to be a huge risk, and they're going to literally wither and die because people won't do business with them. I mean, it's kind of a sustainability piece, but it's a risk as well. Absolutely, that's why it's so important.

Sudha: Yeah, absolutely. I think organisations have to look at it from a business risk and resilience point of view. I mean, your consumers want it, your employees want it, and your employees are going to be different, your consumers are different already. And they are seeking more inclusive workplaces. So that's very, very critical.

I'll combine two questions into one and ask you this one. According to you, what are the key barriers for board representation - a C-suite for black and the global majority. You and I are well aware that there's no dearth of leadership talent amongst these groups, However, senior opportunities continue to elude them. And if I give the example of me or of you, I stepped away very reluctantly a couple of years back because I just couldn't open any doors for myself and people did not see me as a senior leader, and I'm assuming it's the same for you? We step away because we don't have an option and because people are not giving us the choices. What are the barriers? So it's the recruiters, it's the leaders? Why are they not able to engage with people like us?

Barbara: Yeah. Well you're very kind and you're very benevolent to say, you're giving them the benefit of the doubt. Me, not so much. So I think, well let's start from the beginning; PR and comms in the UK, we know from the last PRCA census was about 16.8 billion pounds, it's a billion pound industry.

Barbara: And the people with the power who are mainly white to mainly male, they don't feel they have to change. Why should they change? We've made all this money for ourselves, and we've made it this way, and the industry's been this successful with this kind of format and this system, so why do we have to change? And if you think about it, if you go back a little bit further, you think about British society and the British idea of capitalism, how was that wealth built? How was the empire built? It wasn't on having tea and crumpets with people around the world.

Barbara: So the fact that I think that people have subconsciously got used to. People are used to an elite group having masses of wealth and not having very many opportunities. So I think people are thinking, "well that's the lay of the land, why should we do anything different?" And that's the status quo, it's working for us. That also leads into opportunities, the top jobs for opportunities are just given to this small elite and that little elite likes it that way because they've got their little group and they've got their little clique and they like it that way. And that elite, this kind of, the components of the elite can be classism. So class, social mobility, which is part of it, which I really do think needs to be a protected characteristic now it's ridiculous. Because it's just so blatant, especially our economic systems right now, and then obviously the more obvious one of racism. If you're not ticking that box, you're just not getting in that club. They're just not letting you. So I think, in terms of barriers, it's desire. I've been saying desire since 2020. Remember, much of the things we experience in life is because somebody wants you to experience in that way.

Barbara: That is why you're experiencing it, so let's not forget that. And then, there's this magical mystical pathway to the C-suite, which only white men seem to be able to find. Isn't it funny?No one else seems to be able to find it and that's because we have gatekeepers. As I described earlier, there's some pretty strong areas where people would just stop you dead, you've experienced it, I've experienced it. And it can be, not only your background, social mobility and race, it's universities, it's maybe the way you speak. And then for you to get to the C-suite, certainly in our industries, on this magical path, they expect you to have had worked on high profile clients and worked for big brands and led a huge team, maybe internationally, but of course we're not on that path. How do we get to do that? If you won't let me lead a big client or a big brand, how am I gonna have the experience so you can open the C-Suite to me?

Barbara: It's so much gatekeeping and I don't think it's unconscious. I think it's absolutely consciously done because they like the little look of their club, who's in there and they don't want to let other people in. And those are the real blockages 'cause there's no other reason. If you look at who's going to university, it's completely mixed. In fact, the global majority are the majority of young people who graduate, it's just a nonsense, that means it's stopped, it's blocked somewhere, and I think the gatekeepers just need to open the gate and share their love. That's what they need to do because one day there won't be a gate.

Barbara: There won't be a gate for them to keep and they will just be on the outside rather than on the inside. And as you spoke about earlier, it's a huge risk that they really need to think about, really do.

Sudha: Absolutely. And yeah, I think our industry is also such that it's very cliquey, people know people and they know someone or the other in positions of power, and those people keep recommending each other?

Barbara: Big circle, isn't it?

Sudha: Circle of people within that and people who are outside are always going to remain outside. And how complicit are recruiters in this entire business? How much understanding do they have of the challenges?

Barbara: Yeah. I've had some great recruiters but I've had more poor recruiters and I think that recruiters just need to grow a backbone. I think they need to try and draw themselves away from the commission 'cause it's all about the money and commission.

Barbara: And I think they need to seize an opportunity to make a real impact on societal change, they really are in a position to do that and if they could just draw themselves away from just being the carrot is the commission then they could make so much good. I think the whole idea that they have to present a candidate in their own image, or the last candidate who fulfilled a role, let's just send another one of those along.

Barbara: I find it gutless and weak, and I tell you what, I think if you and I, Sudha, I know people who look like us can go into a job, an all white space every day, where we are ridiculed, where we face micro aggressions, where people are ghosting us, where people are just rude and ignoring us, and yet we go in, we do our best work, we go home, we come back again.

Barbara: That's courage. And I think recruiters need to just grow a spine and think. I think I should be helping my client to convince him and advise him that the talent pool is open now, it's wide, it doesn't have to be in your image or my image. Take a look at some different types of people, I don't believe in blind CVs, I think you should know my name is whatever my name is.

Barbara: So that I'm not exactly like you and that's the reason why you should take me because I'm not exactly like you, that's why I don't like blind CVs but that's another conversation. So I think that they really are missing an opportunity and I think they need to be courageous. And I need to think, even if, for one minute, just not think about just the commission and I have a quote.

Barbara: Which seems applicable for recruiters and the quote is from Thomas Sowell, and he is, he's about nineties now, he's black, he's African-American and he's an economist, and he said something that just seemed to sum up where we are with recruiters and the whole atmosphere that we have and the whole situation we find our industry in, and it says, "when you want to help people", this is for you, recruiters especially, "you'll tell them the truth."

Sudha: Yeah.

Barbara: "But when you want to help yourself" by your commission, "you'll tell them what they want to hear." And that's exactly where we are, sadly. So I think there's a role to play for recruiters. And I know a few of them say, and a few of them are on the scene saying, "yep, we're harping inclusiveness and et cetera, et cetera" and they participate and what have you, but to be honest, I don't believe that they're pushing people, especially senior roles. I don't believe headhunters and those elite recruiters that , ring you up out of the blue and say, you've got this great board job for you, I think it's just performative because the boards are still male, pale and stale. So either they're failing on a massive scale or it's performative.

Sudha: Yeah. Also, I think they need a huge amount of awareness and understanding about the untapped talent pool that exists.

Barbara: Indeed.

Sudha: Actually in today's world, should have already read about it or should know about it. But if they don't, then they need to know about it.

Barbara: Well, it's 2023, there's enough information to fill the British library on what you need to know about inclusive cultures, all of the various buzzwords; DNI, inclusivity, equity, et cetera, et cetera, it's all there. So if you don't know about it, it's 'cause you don't want to know, let's be honest, you don't want to know.

Sudha: Absolutely agreed on that. So moving on, Barbara, do you think shadow boards could be the way forward as a way to build skills and visibility for talent? You're smiling.

Barbara: It's a hard ‘No’ for...

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What does it mean for a business to be Carbon Neutral? Did you know that the buildings businesses inhabit can sometimes have the highest impact on their carbon footprint?

When businesses set ambitions to be Net Zero, what are the steps they take to get there? Does taking positive climate action mean sacrificing growth?

According to @Serbjeet Kohli Sustainability Practice Lead at Steer a global infrastructure consulting firm - it means decoupling growth with a businesses carbon impact. It is about reducing the impact of carbon generated per dollar, per pound, per INR that a company earns. As is obvious sustainability was the focus of our conversation in this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast.

We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 ESG backlash - Serbjeet Kohli’s view that ESG or however you frame it is here to stay, that our communities and key stakeholders have set the direction of travel. The backlash is to be expected considering the huge ask, a fundamental shift in how we think, and evaluate the choices we make

👉🏾 The importance of embedding equity right at the concept state on how we design our cities, urban spaces or transportation and not start thinking about it post facto. Donor and investor imperatives

👉🏾 Moving from supply side world to demand side world - taking into consideration consumer based thinking to generate more value from assets

👉🏾 Addressing the Elephant in the room - the deep lack of diversity in the industry

👉🏾 The ability to swiftly adapt and thriving in change has be to the motto of sustainability transition

👉🏾 Future opportunities from a fast evolving sustainability landscape. And it never profitability vs sustainability, it is about doing both

If you would like to listen to the podcast - head to the links in the comments

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good morning, Serbjeet. Wonderful to have you on The Elephant in the Room Podcast today.

Serbjeet: Good morning Sudha. Lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.

Sudha: Okay, let's start with a quick introduction. So who are you and what do you do?

Serbjeet: I'm Serbjeet Kohli. I'm the sustainability practice lead at Steer Group. I've been in the business for 15 years, been in the industry for 20 years, but the sustainability role is a new role.

Serbjeet: So I'm looking to expand and establish our offer in all the markets that Steer Group operates. We are an infrastructure consulting firm who's been in this practice for over 40 years. And we supported clients, both public and private sector around the globe, essentially helping them invest in infrastructure, transport infrastructure specifically. But as we move forward in the world, the challenges that are being faced by our clients, by our economies, by our communities are getting even more complex and what we are realising is that it isn't just an infrastructure solution that can answer the questions and the challenges that are being posed on its own.

Serbjeet: We need to think more widely, more sustainably and linking up different aspects of not just transport, but transport and energy, transport and energy and finance and all these solutions require fresh thinking. So that's what really our offer is, it's to bring our existing expertise, and...

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I don’t have to be a crystal gazer to say that we have a long way to go before we achieve gender equality and even longer before we get to gender equity. This is not something unique to one part of the world, this is a reality across geographies in developed and developing countries. After decades of advocacy the only thing we can say with certainty is that there is too much talk, and very little action. And that too much talk has resulted in gender washing and fatigue amongst those in positions in power.

The consensus from speaking to women leaders across the world is that the road to equity is steep and arduous. This struggle for representation and equity is stymied by a belief by people in positions of power and some women that all is well and that women can be who they aspire too and succeed.

To throw light on some of challenges faced by women in the workplace I recently spoke with Mohana Talapatra, an ex practice leader for sustainability and ESG (at one of the big 4). As Mohana describes it - she has worked in typically type A - predominately male centric work environments in global investment banking and consulting. So it was interesting to hear her perspective on what it takes to succeed in male dominated spaces

In this freewheeling conversation we spoke about a lot of things including

👉🏾Learning how to claim the space which we occupy and where we want to belong

👉🏾 Challenges women face in the life cycle of their careers - imposter syndrome, being excluded, negative quietness bias…….

👉🏾 Evolving leadership styles and strategies to navigating power structures within organisations. We also speak about the Queen Bee syndrome

👉🏾 Treating your career like a marathon - and being prepared for the ups and downs. Mohana uses an interesting analogy of the stock market (short term/long term)

👉🏾 Thinking like a man (🤔🤔) - especially when it comes to taking credit, applying for roles or prestige projects

👉🏾 Choosing your battles and taking calculated career risks, developing a portfolio of skills

👉🏾 The importance of work life balance

👉🏾 What organisations can do to help women to succeed

We also spoke about the people who inspire her and much more…..

If you would like to listen to the podcast, head to the links in the comments

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Hey Mohana, thank you for being a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast.

Mohana: Hi Sudha, lovely to be on this podcast and to be speaking with you today. I think about all the issues that are important to us in business and especially as being women in business, so very excited. Thank you.

Sudha: Me too. Looking forward to this conversation.

Sudha: So let's get started with a quick introduction. Do you have an elevator pitch? Do you have this quick thing that you tell people whenever you meet them? Because I get very flummoxed sometimes when I start giving a detailed introduction.

Mohana: No, absolutely. And that has been me also. I'm like, can we just talk about not me for a bit?

Mohana: And I just tend to gloss over it very quickly. But I think, as part of my recent training to be a coach, I'm learning that if we don't claim the space where we stand and where we want to belong, nobody's going to give us that space. So off late, I'm learning to craft an elevator pitch, but I've not...

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In the midst of all the doom and gloom, here is a heart warming story and wonderful initiative that taps into the ‘kindness bone’ of people. My guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast this week is Shishir Joshi, a veteran journalist and the Founder and Chief Executive of the award-winning not-for-profit Project Mumbai (www.projectmumbai.org) a public trust striving for social transformation through initiatives of scale.

Mumbai, is the city of dreams for millions of Indians. Its a city I spent over a decade in the city and fell in love with it, its spirit, its generosity, its ability to let people be, for everyone to dream, for everyone to be who they were, for being a safe city for women working crazy hours. I loved it for its indomitable spirit and humanity but also its street food (nothing to beat Mumbai street food). It is also the city where I met with Shishir (a journalist at that time) as a PR pro.

Coming back to the podcast, according to Shishir, the idea of “Project Mumbai” is founded on the belief that every human being has a kindness bone - especially Mumbaikars (people who live in Mumbai). And he wants to harness that to make Mumbai the ‘Kindness capital of India’. Project Mumbai represents what a successful model for what public, private, people partnerships should look like, showcases how we can achieve social transformations through collaborations and make our cities more accessible and safer for those who are the most vulnerable.

The tagline for this brilliant initiative is equally brilliant and colloquial “Mumbai ke liye kuch bhi karega” which losely translates to ‘I will do any thing for Mumbai’. The tagline beautifully captures the essence, the spirit of the city. And that not just why this volunteer-led non-profit, was selected by the UN SDG Action Campaign as one of the global recipients for the Solidarity Award, a special call from the annual UN SDG Action Awards 2020 (It is was 1 among 3 selected from India among 50 in the world)

Listen to Shishir Joshi speak about building cohesive teams, volunteers and their role during COVID, his favourite projects, proudest moments, biggest learnings, the future, and how cities could tackle some of their biggest challenges through similar initiatives and what it means to be a catalyst for positive change. To know more about how this incredible organisation is harnessing the kindness of people and collaboration to deliver on over 100+ successful partnerships towards building and creating a more inclusive city head to the podcast.

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Hey Shishir, Good afternoon. Thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today. Wonderful to have you here and see you after a very long time.

Shishir: Thank you so much, Sudha. And yes, I really love the title of this podcast that you have. It's very interesting

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Shishir: Oh, it's going to take a long time.

Sudha: I can believe that.

Shishir: I'm Shishir Joshi and I head a not-for-profit called Project Mumbai, which may have been founded,...

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I think it is safe to say that 2023 has brought climate consciousness to more people than ever before. Extreme climate events across the world - forest fires, extreme heat, intense droughts, flooding, melting polar ice, changes in the weather pattern, rising air pollution, declining biodiversity have made it difficult for us to ignore climate realities - climate change is for real. And climate anxiety amongst people especially the young is becoming a cause for concern.

What about some of the biggest contributors to the climate crisis and global warming? Who are they and how concerned are they? According to the IEA ‘The Energy sector is central to efforts to combat climate change. Energy (Fossil fuels – coal, oil and gas – are by far the largest contributor to global climate change) accounts for two-thirds of total greenhouse gas, so it is the central player in efforts to reduce emissions and mitigate climate change.’

But, this sector that made obscene profits this year has not been doing much according to a recent report by the World Benchmarking Alliance. At the launch of the report two weeks back, I was staggered to hear one of the speakers mention that ‘pension funds have not set red lines on fossil fuel funding’. And that £88 billion has been invested in fossil fuel by UK pension funds and banks. It seems very careless, considering we are on the brink - so to speak.

The WBA Climate and Energy Benchmark in its second iteration assesses and ranks the world’s 100 most influential oil and gas companies including on their low carbon transition and social impact. In a recent conversation with Vicky Sins Climate and Energy Benchmark Lead at the World Benchmarking Alliance (WBA) we spoke about the benchmark, the significance of the insights and its impact on decarbonisation and transition to low carbon economy. Listing below some of the key findings 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 0, That’s right ZERO companies have committed to halting the expansion of fossil fuel activities before 2030. With no set date for phasing out fossil fuels most companies don’t have credible transition plans (Am I SHOUTING??)

👉🏾 Most companies have not set targets that cover their scope 1, 2 and 3 emissions meaning that the majority of emissions from this sector are still not covered by reduction targets

👉🏾 Only a minority of the assessed companies are engaged with necessary preconditions for a ‘Just Transition’

👉🏾 Despite soaring profits companies are still not investing in a low carbon transition. Only 25% of companies report the amount of capital expenditure that they have invested in low carbon technologies

👉🏾 To halve the sector’s scope 1 and 2 emissions, companies need to invest $600 billion by 2030 into low-carbon solutions. This is not happening. Just 12 companies’s scope 1 and 2 emissions intensities have decreased in line with their 1.5C pathways.

👉🏾 Just 35% of companies are committed to social dialogue with workers and affected stakeholders and 46% percent disclose the share of their workforce covered by collective bargaining agreements

👉🏾 Over half of companies assessed still link executive remuneration or incentives to the growth of fossil fuels, and only 18% of assessed companies have scope 3 emission targets.

👉🏾 93% of companies score zero on just transition planning

If you would like to know more, head to the podcast. Link in the comments👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript

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I can never say this enough - hosting my own podcast means I have had the privilege to meet so many wonderful people, some of whom have gone on to become friends and trusted advisors. My first meeting with Seetha Rani KP was last year when running a workshop for NASSCOM senior industry leaders in Bengaluru, we connected over our lived experiences (and we were both wearing green).

She shared a story about her name - her name Seetha has a religious and cultural resonance. So, people have expectations about what Seetha should look like, how she should dress, behave, speak🤔🤔🧐🧐🤷🏾‍♀️🤷🏾‍♀️🤷🏾‍♀️ Seetha of course does not conform to any of the stereotypes, in fact she is intentional about smashing them.

So, when we caught up a couple of weeks back it was a pleasure to speak to hear about her role at Philips Innovation Campus. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Traits of a good leader, her leadership style as it has evolved over the years

👉🏾 The role of HR in driving purpose and culture in an organisation and defining the employee value proposition

👉🏾 Skills for HR to be able to step up to its expanding role and managing change

👉🏾 Advise for future practitioners

👉🏾 Role models - the people around her who inspire and motivate her

👉🏾 Her immense belief and faith in people and their abilities

If you would like to know more, head to the podcast. Link in the comments👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good afternoon, Seetha. It's wonderful to finally have you on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Seetha: Lovely to be here with you.

Sudha: Brilliant. Let's get started. Can you give a quick introduction to who you are and please share a couple of experiences that have defined who you are today.

Seetha: Thanks for that, Sudha. I am a people's person, and I believe in making a difference to people and being joyful and bring joy to people, that's the core of who I am. And what has shaped this is my foundational years. I was born and brought up in Bangalore, in a place where I had people from different parts of India. We had people from Andra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, and even Maharashtra, Gujarat. I grew up with different sets of people, and it also had different, classes of people. And also, we had people with disability who were thriving in that environment, we had people with polio. So I got a lot of exposure being with different kinds of people and probably that has helped me have a very diverse mindset. That is number one. And number two, I think, from my family, I draw a lot of strength, particularly I want to draw attention to what my dad was like. My dad was someone who really brought a lot of joy. As a child when I was growing up along with my siblings, every single day he would come home from work no matter how his day was, whether he was going through his own hardships.

Seetha: But when he would come home, he always got something for us; it could be chocolates or it could be like poppins or biscuits, et cetera. But it used to bring a lot of joy to us, he would take time to tell us stories, make up some his own stories and entertain us,and all of them brought a lot of joy and kind of made me believe that it's the moment, we have to seize the moment and make it count. I still remember my Dads, one of the incidents that, where he was old and ailing and frail, still wrote on my birthday, he wrote a handwritten note about me, a couple of lines, and which I framed and

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According to the Social Mobility Commission Report from last year only 35% of adults in the UK believe that everyone has a fair chance to go as far as their hard work will take them and 46% said that where you end up in society is mainly determined by your background and who your parents were. It is hard to disagree with what the commission has to say. But, every once in a while you hear stories of people who make it despite the challenges, the hurdles that they may have faced in life. This could be because of a teacher who is interested, a mentor who is committed to adding real value to the life of a mentee….

My guest on the podcast this week Rosie Wainwright, an ambassador for social justice met her mentor Laura @Career Ready. Laura hugely influenced the direction Rosie took in her life, by unlocking her love for books (as a dyslexic) and focusing on education as a path to attainment and breaking the cycle (in her own words). In the episode we spoke about her difficult life experiences, being in foster care, becoming an ambassador for social justice, a panel member on TACT (Fostering and Adoption Charity) and a people and change specialist at PA Consulting. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Learning what ‘normal’ looks like. Being the first person in her family to go to university

👉🏾 How Career Ready changed her life

👉🏾 The dreaded imposter syndrome, work place culture and being a culture fit

👉🏾 Her mantra ‘Reminding myself that I deserve to be where I am. I am not in my position because someone made a mistake’

👉🏾 Supporting social impact and widening participation

👉🏾 Her biggest achievement which is her relationship with herself and others

👉🏾 Networking and her mentor at PA Consulting Sally Bibb

“Words have power. Do not be embarrassed, your situation at a young age is not your fault. Focus on your education. Education is often the key to social mobility. So develop, learn skill yourself where you can. And something that I do now, make a conscious decision to surround yourself with people who uplift you, who are going to offer support and encouragement. And if your come across someone that inspires you - reach out to them, ask them to be your mentor like I did.”

I am ever so grateful to Rosie for sharing her story, her difficulties and triumphs with me and the listeners even though we discussed in advance what she was comfortable speaking about.

Memorable Passages from the Podcast:

👉🏾 Sure. So I'm Rosie Wainwright. I live in Southeast London and I work at a company called PA Consulting as a people and change specialist. I'm also a mentor and a qualified coach, and I sit on a fostering and adoption panel for a company called TACT. And yeah, I guess I'm passionate about social mobility and having a positive impact where I can.

👉🏾 Sure. So I would say that every experience in my life has shaped who I am today. But I'll keep it simple and I'll talk about my top three that kind of stick out in my memory. So the first would have to be, I think like most people, my childhood. So I grew up predominantly with my mom as a single parent and was helped to be raised by my grandparents. When they passed away, things took quite a turn. My mom, she had me very young and she got mixed up with the wrong people and got into the wrong things. So unfortunately, I became the target for most of her anger. I then went into foster care. I was about 14 or 15 years old, and the...

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The angst associated with the imposter syndrome is something that a lot of us have felt or continue to feel at various points of our life.

This angst is different to the fear that comes with not being a ‘culture fit’. For decades organisations have weaponised ‘culture fit’ to exclude those who do not conform to the dominant cultural norms in a workplace. The global majority, the neurodiverse, people with disabilities or those on the margins tend to be punished for being different.

So much of the challenge across the world is because we like people to fit neatly into boxes. That we expect people to fit in with the our stereotypes, to conform to the dominant culture or workplace norms. Who is or can be Indian/American or British; or who is the ideal team member? Do they comply with our expectation of how they should look, dress, behave….? The good thing is that increasingly people resist being boxed. But, this is not an easy road to take….

I recently spoke with Sanjani Shah, the Global Head of PR at The Body Shop about identity, fitting in, her learnings from her career journey and personal purpose. In her own words, she spent her early career trying to fit in and was called a ‘coconut’ (brown on the outside and white on the inside) by friends and family. Accepting who she is and that she is good(great) has taken some unlearning.

In the episode we also spoke about what ‘Purpose’ means at the Body shop and how it translates and is embedded in how the organisation communicates. We also spoke about…

👉🏾 Speaking up, having a personal purpose, benevolent leadership, collaboration as the new paradigm

👉🏾 How The Body Shop continues to build on the legacy of Dame Anita Roddick

👉🏾 Authentic communications, greenwashing/sustainability washing?

👉🏾 The role of networks, mentors, sponsors for women and other disadvantaged groups?

👉🏾Role models and reading lists

We ended talking about hindsight and doing things differently……

If you would like to listen more, head to the podcast….

Memorable Passages from the podcast

👉🏾Yeah, good morning or good afternoon in India. Such a pleasure to be on the podcast.

👉🏾 So I'm Kenyan Indian, living in London. I'm one half of a dink, that's a "double income no kids" and one quarter of a pack of siblings. And I think, you know, if I just talk, if I say where I am now, I used to be FOMO and Covid has changed me to JOMO. So in my earlier years, always out very social.

And now I think since Covid, I've just become a lot more happy to be in my own company and don't feel like I have to be everywhere doing everything. So it's a little bit about me and because this podcast is about leadership, I wanted to talk a little bit about my career and some of the roles that I've done and some of my highlights.

👉🏾I would say that my first actual job was with the International Red Cross in Kenya and it was helping reunite families that were separated by the genocide in Rwanda. It was the most fulfilling role I've ever had. And it's the role that stays in my heart and, and that was a role I did before I even went to university, it was in my gap year and it was just amazing. I actually learned a lot about leadership then. Another highlight I would say in my career is working with MasterCard in France and I worked on their World Cup sponsorships. It was all-around events and sponsorships and I got to go to all the World Cup games in '98 in France, and I met Pelé so that was a really amazing point of my career. I've then worked with two of the largest PR agencies Edelman and Weber Shandwick based out of London and based out of Singapore. Now I'm working with one of the world's largest beauty brands and one of my favourite brands and I love my job. It has so many highlights, but it's really taken me far and wide. Perhaps the favourite part of my job is kind of visiting our farmers. So I've, you know, done media trips and taken journalists far and wide to, you know, meet our farmers in Rwanda who grow our Moringa or to the women's cooperatives in Morocco or to plastic ragpickers in India.

👉🏾 So I just wanted to share that just as a little bit of flavour about myself, but also kind of what my work history has been about.

👉🏾 I know, when I got the job, it was a real pinch me moment. Cause, when you admire a brand so much and then you get to work for it, it's pretty amazing, I have to say. You know, people have asked me this question and I've thought about it and exactly that, you know, when you've been here and there and lived in lots of different places, you kind of tend to take on the identity of different places as well.

👉🏾I would actually say, and you know, don't mean to sound like a cliche, but I do feel like I'm a global citizen. And actually, now I'm actively trying to lose the idea of having a strong identity. I'm actually very happy with not having a strong identity because I think having a strong identity, you end up putting yourself in a box by trying to give yourself an identity and an identity gives you a set of definitions that I think end up limiting you, and actually you are so much more than an identity. So I'm actively trying to lose the idea of identity.

👉🏾Or even constraints of upbringing or constraints of race or culture or religion, you know? Yeah.

👉🏾 Yeah, I would say that one of my earliest learnings is, to stop trying to fit in. I think it's in the, it's in the words of Oscar Wilde, "be yourself, everyone else is taken." And I think it is really kind of dawned on me now that I bring a really unique set of things to wherever I work, to the Body Shop, and that's why I'm hired. But I spent a lot of my earlier career trying to fit in, trying to wear it, like, actually become more white if I can say that. There’s a running joke in my family that, I'm a coconut, but it was because I was trying to fit in and now I'm trying to really unlearn all of that, trying to fit in.

👉🏾 I'm shaking off the uniform and I'm really trying to stay true to myself and stay confident in it. And what I would say is, there's a few, so that's one of the biggest things I've learned, you know, don't try and be someone else, be yourself and be grounded in that. I've always considered myself to be a confident person and ready to speak up. But when the George Floyd incident happened, I realised, actually I was not speaking up. I was seeing micro aggressions or I was seeing injustices happen and I was not speaking up even in the workplace because of that whole trying to fit in and not putting my head up above the parapet and it's all fear-based, isn't it? If I stand out for the wrong reasons, I might get fired, that kind of thing. But I feel, you know, in, at the Body Shop there were a lot of conversations, that opened up after the whole George Floyd incident. And I think that was quite a pivotal moment in history, in my history anyway, in that it suddenly opened the doors for a lot of people to speak openly about something without the worry about recrimination.

👉🏾So as one of the people of colour, you know, I was consulted for, a lot of various kinda networks and things, and I would talk about some of the things I'd observed at the Body Shop and I remember this conversation and she was in senior leadership and she said to me, "Sanjani why have you never said this before?"

And I said, well, actually it's really difficult, especially if you're in a predominantly Caucasian environment to speak up and it didn't feel like a safe place. I think, it shocked her that I didn't speak up, but I was like, well, because you're coming from that space of privilege where you've always been able to say what you want and it's so different.

👉🏾 But that, that was really stark for me and I think now, I use my voice a lot more. And, I'll do it as nicely as possible, but I don't worry about the consequences and I think that's just, gained me a lot of respect. But I also feel a lot of responsibility being in my position, you know, in a large organisation, but also in a PR world, which in the UK is predominantly Caucasian. So I feel like there's a lot of responsibility on my shoulders, and if I don't use my voice, I'm kind of mistreating that responsibility. So yeah, those would be my kind of two biggest lessons.

👉🏾I mean, a lot of it comes over time. When you're in your early career, there's a lot of fear. Although I see a new in like incoming people, younger people are quite fearless. I mean, if I compare myself to what, you know, when I was at that age, they're quite fearless and they kind of stand for what they want. But I would say that just, you are hired for your differences. You are hired for your uniqueness. Like be yourself. As I said, be yourself, everyone is taken. So I'm spending a lot of time unlearning, what I've learned and thankfully I'm much wiser now and, and I would say I fully embrace my Indianness and the different perspective it gives me. So I'm really a lot more comfortable in being relaxed now, not having that stiff British upper lip, being so proper, which is what I've, which I tried to do and actually quite frankly isn't me or wasn't me. And for example, I've been told by quite a few of my managers that I'm a good negotiator and that's a real strength and I actually fully attribute that to my Indianness and my inherent kind of haggling nature, and my boss now, she's like, "well, you've got an advantage over all of us in this, you know?" and I'm like, "yeah, I do." So it's kind of drawing on the strengths that you have been given through kinda various experiences or, you know, through your childhood.

👉🏾It's definitely a fancy buzzword that's going around in the corporate world, I would say and the notion of everyone has an individual purpose actually used to really stress me out because I was like, I don't know what my purpose is. What is my purpose? and that kinda, oh, I'm not enough because I don't have a purpose and it seemed like everyone else had a purpose. But what I would say is having a purpose is important because without it, you kind of go through life, at the whims of what's happening outside. So, if you don't have a purpose, you can be at the whims of what's happening on social media or what's happening on news and I think purpose just really helps centre you. And I'm still figuring it out, but I would say that my purpose is to become a benevolent leader and I'm hoping that, if by leading by example, I hope to serve and make a difference in people's lives. Again, I don't want it to sound like a cliche, but I've always had a certain type of management style or a certain type of manager. It's only recently that I had a very different manager and she really kind of embodies benevolence, and what I realised in me, I mean, if I look at me two years ago versus now, I really flourished under that kind of leadership. It helped me grow and it's really helped me become, you know, find my true self and I'm so grateful for it and the way I work and my outlook to work has changed so much so. I feel like that's really what I now want to give to other people.

👉🏾Yeah, and I've definitely been on both sides of the coin as a leader myself. But you know, if someone isn't a good leader, can really knock the confidence out of you and it can take you back quite a few years. So yeah, I feel like my purpose is to really help people flourish.

👉🏾So I would say, that the Body Shop believes in change making beauty, the Body Shop is about change making beauty, and it's not about an idealised version of beauty. So you know, the Body Shop stands to fight for a fairer and more beautiful world, but it's also about natural beauty and the focus is really about what's inside. And I, two years ago, did a campaign with a Body Shop on self-love and it's really about helping people look at beauty through the lens of self-love. I mean, self-love is where it all begins. When you have that insight, that self-love insight, you can make changes on the outside.

👉🏾 And I would say as a comms function, you asked, you know, how, how do we embed it? I would say the, for me and for the team, the filter is that every piece of communication should uplift people rather than create fear which the beauty industry does quite a lot. So, for example, we recently, it was last year we launched a new range, we have a bestselling range called 'drops of youth' and we felt that it really didn't embody what a Body Shop stands for, what our values are. And as a business, we made the decision to change the name of that range and actually. It was quite a big decision because it's our number one skincare range around the world, so any kind of change like that in a business is usually you'd say, do not do it because you know,

👉🏾 Yeah, don't break what's broken. But chance is it was already broken because 'Drops of Youth' is already instilling fear and is idolising youth, and it's like completely against what we talk about. So we did a whole campaign and we've changed the name and for us, it was an anti, anti-ageing, you know, we're not here to try and get people to look younger, it's about helping people age gracefully. I'm working on a campaign now which is about kind of really not, or debunking the myth of perfect skin. So we're using models that absolutely don't have perfect skin, but are able to tell their stories.

👉🏾 So as a coms department or the personal filter I use is this piece of coms uplifting or not? And I feel like it's, it makes it very simple then. Yeah. And actually that thing of is, is what I'm saying, uplifting or not. It's a way I filter my comms at work. But also I've started using it outside of work. So you know, if I'm talking, if I'm saying something to someone, I always try and use that filter, if I'm saying this, is it uplifting? And if it's not, do I need to say it? Yeah, I mean, I would hundred percent say I haven't perfected it by any means, but it's something I'm trying to more mindful of.

👉🏾We are, we are, and especially when it comes to things like our families or our friends, we slip into, cause I think at work, you have a level of, you know there are some rules at work and that there are, like brand guidelines, et cetera, which kinda keep you in check. But when you step outside of that world and into your personal world with family and friends, you often kind of drop into unconsciousness, so like a simple filter like this, it for me, I'm definitely not embodying it right now, but at least it's an intention.

👉🏾Yes and I think what you're saying is so potent for us that a lot of companies are kind of jumping onto the bandwagon of sustainability or campaigning, et cetera, but the Body Shop had that in its very DNA from the very beginning. So actually, it makes my job and the whole comms team's job really easy because everything is authentic and even when we kind of, we work with influencers or if we work with celebrities, the feedback we get from the agents is that, I think nowadays, people are being really careful which brands they work for. But whenever the Body Shop is mentioned, there's like no questions. It's like, yes.

👉🏾 So I think that authenticity carries a lot and what I would say is that the Body Shop really does continue to be a force for good. So one of the things, one of Anita's biggest legacies was our stance against animal testing. I think that's, you know, when you ask someone what do you know about the Body Shop's is the number one thing that comes up. We were the first Cosmetics company to campaign against animal testing in cosmetics in 1989 and we're now taking that further and we're now set to become the first global beauty brand to have a hundred percent of its product formulations vegan by the end of this year. So we are working with the vegan society, they certify us, they have very stringent certifications. So by the end of this year, we're set to be a hundred percent vegan with all our formulations.

👉🏾So we feel that, we're taking that legacy against animal testing and we're growing and building it. Another thing that Anita started and I think she was a little bit ahead of her time, was refills. So you could come in store and you could bring your bottle of shower gel and you could get it refilled. This scheme kind of stopped for a while because I think, like I said, it was a bit ahead of our time, consumers were just not ready for it. But also a lot of Health and Safety regulations kind of emerged and just made it very difficult. But it, something was very much still in our hearts and two years ago, we relaunched our refill skin scheme with the underlying thinking that why waste a container when you can refill it? So how it works is really simple, we have refill stations in a lot of our stores, we have 822 refill stations around the world, and we've got a range of 12 of our best selling shampoos, conditioners, shower gels, and hand washes. You have an aluminium bottle that can be reused over a hundred times and you can come in once you've finished it, you come in and it gets refilled so it's great. We've saved over 20 tons of plastic from going to waste from this and so far 350,000 people have used our refill scheme, so we're just looking to make that bigger. So again, we're just continuing the legacy of Anita.

👉🏾 And then I would say, in terms of force for good, Anita also kind of really pioneered a program called the Community Fair Trade Program, which is the Body Shops Bespoke Fair Trade Program. And back in the day when she launched it, it was called Trade Not Aid. And the philosophy was, rather than giving people donations and philanthropy, you teach them a skill. You trade with them, you buy them so that they have a long-term income, but also it helps their self-esteem and the benefits of trade versus aid are multiple. So that program is still going really strong, and we continue to invest in it: like from handcrafted shea butter in Ghana, to recycled paper bags from Nepal to our plastic packaging coming from India, the program goes from strength to strength. I would say in terms of, you know, Anita was known for doing things very differently and one of the things, and like my favourite thing to launch at the Body Shop was our community fair trade plastic.

👉🏾...

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Shownotes:

TRIGGER WARNING:

I have mental fatigue because I live between two countries, I feel unsettled, cannot plan too far into the future and there is a constant sense of restlessness, a journey not completed……..But, all of this I do out of choice (difficult though it may be). This is not about me but about perspective.

Most of us cannot even being to fathom the personal cost, the emotional and mental stress, the economic, social, physical cost of a never ending war forced upon peaceful people. What does it mean to not have any control over your life, not have the ability to look after yourself, your children, your elderly parents, your friends or plan for the future?

It has been 1 year, 2 months and 3 weeks since Russia invaded Ukraine….During that period 8 million Ukrainians have registered as refugees in Europe; 5.3 million Ukrainians have displaced internally; Over 5 million children have been displaced by the war; And millions of men separated from their families………..

In the midst of this tragedy, uncertainty and strife, there are people who are trying to get on with their lives, wherever they are. One such person isDina Nemyrovych. I met Dina Nemyrovych at the @ICCO Conference in Dubai last year where she spoke passionately about the war in Ukraine, its impact on Ukrainians (including her and her family) and the work being done by millions of Ukrainians to support the effort. Over the past couple of months Dina Nemyrovych and I have been in conversation on how I (as an individual) or the industry could support them in the difficult work they have been doing.

The podcast is a first step to embarking on a journey to creating awareness about the scale of the task at hand. In a frank and often emotional chat Dina Nemyrovych spoke about DATTALION - a project founded and run by Ukrainian women.

The project is supported by international volunteers and is focused on collating authentic, verifiable war footage. The idea is to collect and store evidence of war crimes, environmental crimes, crimes against humanity and acts of genocide. “DATTALION is home to the largest free and independent open source database of Ukraine war footage as well as the database of verified eyewitness to the horrors of Russia’s invasion.”

We also spoke about the impact of the war on her and the family; the vision for DATTALION the challenges to running a volunteer led organisation, working in difficult circumstances; #mentalhealth health, staying resolute, what we can do to support DATTALION and Ukraine.

For the future there are plans to help capture the stories of Ukrainian women, whose lives have been roiled by the war - to create for posterity records of the impact of conflict, war. If you would like to learn more and support the efforts: visit the DATTALION website, Donate and listen to the podcast (Link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Memorable Passages from the episode:

👉🏾 Good afternoon. I'm in Abu Dhabi and I can say Good afternoon.

👉🏾 First of all, I'm Dina Nemyrovych and I can say that currently, I'm in Abu Dhabi, but I'm from Ukraine because it's very important just to say I'm from Ukraine. I was born in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine. I spent all my life in Kiev. I was graduated by Kiev Economic University. I gained my professional experience in various sphere, a lot of multinational companies, very famous like Ernst & Young, Deloitte. But in Ukraine, you can see a lot of big Ukrainian companies, leaders of Ukrainian market very famous for example, in NEU. I have three daughters and I would like to continue to live in Kiev in Ukraine. I would like to grow my children.

👉🏾And so finally why I would like to show this xxxxxxx that I spent all my life in Ukraine, because during last year, starting from March, 2022, I'm living in Abu Dhabi. I'm living in United Arabic Emirates, and only one reason because of the Russian and Ukrainian war, or Russian invasion, my preference to say Russian invasion, which started 24th of February, 2022. I decided to leave Ukraine after five days in shelter, together with my daughter, 11 old daughter and I decided because of the safety reason together with my husband visit, we unfortunately we have to leave Kiev. And now by the way, my husband, he decided to join Ukrainian army. He's not military and he spent all his life as like a manager, facility manager, but he decided to go to Ukrainian army.

👉🏾 So as of now, I'm Dina Nemyrovych, I'm living together with my two daughters. My husband, he's a part of Ukrainian army and I say that we are still Ukrainian and we are still hope that Ukraine should win this war. Sorry for the introduction, but it's very important.

👉🏾Oh, one remark from me. Yeah, because for example, if we come back to Dina, which before 24th of February I have a hobby. I'm open water swimmer. What does it mean? I have done a lot of, yes, I have done a lot of long distance swimming. It's more than 10 kilometers. I'm a part of big Ukrainian swimming team. I took part in a lot of challengeable swimming marathons. But if you open my swimming map, what you can see, you can see Odesa, Kherson, Slovyansk, you can see a lot of famous cities. Which a lot of people know, but before the war. This maybe yes. But it's very interesting that our Ukrainian cities started to be famous because of this awful situation. But when I decided to think what's happened with my lovely places, with my lovely swimming places, it's awful because Kherson you know, yes, it's a big damage.

👉🏾So if I would like to talk about my hobby, unfortunately, I should think about this, like damage about the war again. So, yeah, so I decided to share this, like very remarkable. I'm continue to swim in Emirates because I hope that I will be back and it's like my dream real dream, to start to swim in Ukraine because it would be like a real situation, if you can swim, what does it mean that Ukraine will be very good, very quiet place for all of people and we think that maybe we can organise some international competition

👉🏾 Yes. It's totally changed and I would like to just to continue this phrase, totally changed and the second line, it's very difficult to plan next year, for example. It's very difficult because it's impossible and maybe the biggest challenge for me, because if you come back to my background, my financing background, I spent a lot of years in audit and planning because xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx I like planning for my personal life as well.

👉🏾 But what I can do now, I can plan on the next month maximum. For example I have recognised a new issue. Because I have three daughters, so I have big family, but additionally, I have a very big dog and what I have to do, yes, I have Labrador. He is very big dog, and what I have to do immediately, I have to find opportunity how I can transfer my dog from Kiev to Abu Dhabi.

👉🏾 So what does it mean, it's like a real example of our real life, every day we have a new issue, which could be related to your, let's say, Ukrainian life. I'm living like in two different places in one time. So actually I'm living in Abu Dhabi, I'm working in management consulting. But actually I'm Ukrainian woman. I have a lot of friends, a lot of relatives. I have my dog, I have my husband, and so I'm in Ukraine. My hope with Ukraine, my head in Ukraine, I have a lot of issues which should be resolved. I should help to a lot of people, because of the situation, because of this crisis, because of a lot of problems.

👉🏾 So my just like first conclusion that Dina, you cannot plan anything for a long term. Long term, it means that more than one, two months, you should be ready to change your life immediately. After receiving of any new information from Ukraine, and yes, you should be ready to be so flexible to change your life, your country tomorrow. It's absolutely one of the biggest challenge in our personal life because I have a lot of friends. But mainly I'm talking about Ukrainian women, and we are living in different countries, Canada, Sweden, a lot of few countries with our kids. But we are ready to change our lives today just after this interview. So I'm ready for any changes after this year.

👉🏾Thank you for this question because really I would like to tell more about Datallion. If we come back to my story when unfortunately I decided to leave my home country. And the same time I decided that I have to find my way to struggle. It was very important for me after five days of starting the war, what I can do. Yes I should provide safety for my kids, but from another hand I would like to find my way. And I have found very interesting requests in Facebook.

👉🏾For example, who would like to be part of volunteers project? If you have analytical skills, please join us. I decided to put like plus, you know, in like in the comments. Yes, and after three days, very interesting volunteers project xxxxxxxxxx ,they just gave me a message, said, please join us. What does it mean the xxxxxxxxxx?

👉🏾 We are talking about data plus battlion, so we are talking about like a real unit which can struggle using data. I can say the biggest database of photo, video, witnesses of Ukrainian war. The biggest we don't know because it's difficult to compare and, but we sure Dattalion team that we are the biggest open database. Mainly we are talking about photo and video, and you can see each day of Russian invasion in Ukraine, starting from 24th of February. You can find this content per each day. We are talking 406 day.

👉🏾 It means that you can find 406 days content. Which consists of information like a photo, video, interview, and why we decided to do this one year ago, let's say different reasons. First, we decided after one week of Russian invasion, we have recognised that it's very important to provide a lot of information like photo and video to different media because it's difficult for them just to have like immediate presence in Ukraine.

👉🏾So at we decided to start from free of charge, like access to database. And first three months as it was very important for a lot of journalists, media to open to find pictures like videos, as I said, interviews and to use this material for their articles. And we decided that it would be very good way to say real true stories about what is going on in Ukraine. And the second issue that it would be very important to demonstrate how we can see the situation because it's a pictures from us.

👉🏾 It's a photo-video from us. In May, we decided to add witness database, because we received a lot of requests from media again, that guys, can you provide us some contacts of people who can tell their stories? And we decided that it would be very good idea just to compile this witness database to be ready to provide the stories to different medias. And it would be very important to understand who can speak English, who can speak German, who can speak any other languages. As of now, we have more than 150 witnesses, they are ready to speak, and we just documented each story. We have like a video, and from one side, any of nationalists can use the story, from another side we started to think about future after three, five years. I'm sure we will be winner in this world, but it would be very important to start to think about current situation again from history point of view, because. I think that when we started to be winner, the next step will be, we should tell to all of people, that guys, It's impossible to see this awful situation in any country. So what does it mean? Please use our archive, I'm talking about our archive now, starting from database to archive to history archive. Use our archive for the purposes to say we don't want to see the same situation in any country in the world.

👉🏾We have started from, we would like to provide access to real stories. Currently we think that we would like to have enough documents for future archive or maybe for future Museum, Digital Museum. But anyway, so we have two different mission now because we are still very important for all people who would like to use our materials and to prepare stories and to use our materials, for example, video for films makers And so important because we can assist them, for example, if you have like the following request, xxxxxxx can you assist me in relation to May, 2022 materials in relation to Bucha materials in relation to Mykolaiv April, 2022 materials? So finally my personal view, we are ready to give a real trust stories. And true stories about the biggest current war.

👉🏾 Yes, really, it's difficult. But I would like to switch on to challenges. Yes. Yeah. Really? The biggest challenge I think that I'm talking about real volunteers organisation. So what does it mean? We can rely only on two assets, our time and our skills. For example, it's interesting statistic, which I can use to show what does it mean, volunteers, organisation and the biggest challenge. If you ask me how many volunteers do I have? My true answer will be like approximately 200.

👉🏾 But how many volunteers do you have in your team now? My true answer will be 60. What does it mean that a lot of people spend their time during this one year, but unfortunately, It was impossible to keep fixed team every day. Because we are talking about mainly women with kids who left Ukraine because of safety reason and in regard of the situation of us, we decided to invest any spare time. Sometimes, Nighttime to help Ukraine to win through using your time for the Datallion, for example, we have done a lot of, let's say, mini projects. And it was very popular as for example, you can be a part of our volunteers team for 1, 2, 3 months just to do this project and unfortunately leave us after like your investment.

👉🏾So the biggest challenge are people, it's impossible to rely like on our team every day. We are relying Ukrainian people who continue to invest their time and every day we should think about new volunteers. Every day we should think how we can find them. After one year, really it's very difficult because of you know, financial situation. After one year, a lot of people, they lost their work. A lot of people, unfortunately, out of Ukraine, and it's difficult to find like real acceptable work. And so what does it mean? The biggest issue, be ready to promote your project every day for two purposes, just to find new users and to realise your mission to tell more about Ukraine. And the second one, just to ask people to join you.

👉🏾 Yes. Yeah I think of a question really starting from maybe October, November. By the way, we have like a few people like main co-founders when they're talking about fixed team, we're talking about a few people, like a main co-founders, and we are responsible for everyday activities and we are responsible for strategy, we can use this word for the Datallion. So we decided to think that women and work topic will be very important because we would like to demonstrate like Ukrainian women role, like profile and how we can continue to grow up our kids at the same time. How we can struggle against Russians. And what we started to do, really, we started to propose our materials and our team for different events. And it was done, let's say a lot of presentations and participation in different events out of Ukraine and to tell like a real story about Datallion. By the way, we have internal statistic and this is real project which driven by women. We have 85 percentage of our core team, we are talking about let's say like women team. But if we are talking about volunteers team, it's approximately 90 percentage.

👉🏾 We're talking about women's team. For example, in my case, I have received an invitation to be a main speaker in my company because diversity issue and women leadership. One of the biggest issue in this company and I'm working in big international company, it's very important for them to see leadership from women and they asked me to prepare this presentation and to tell this real story for a business woman. It was very important to hear the story and because it's like a real demonstration that you will be very powerful. You as a woman, you will be very powerful and you can do all things together, you can continue to grow your kids, you can find new job. But it's very important, you could be and you could invest your time and for example, in really very important things, which could change the world because after a lot of years it would be big recognition that current time and Ukrainians really we are changing the world because we would like to demonstrate that it's impossible to leave and such situation, and we should combine our efforts around Ukraine and we should be winner.

👉🏾 And it would be big changes the world as I believe after our real win. So finally we come back to this topic. Really we have very good coverage from different media. If you purchase Datallion women team, it would be a lot of references to articles about us. And very interesting because we have very young women and they participated in different events with their stories because approximately 40 percentage of our team currently, they living in Ukraine and really, It would be very important if you would like to know how women leadership can change situation and for example, we come back to my presentation for a lot of women from different countries, in my company. It was very like a real, not big surprise, but it was a very challengable story. You should use your leadership and you can do a lot of things, especially if you can combine your efforts. So it's like really women efforts, which you can combine and which you can use as one team can change all things.

👉🏾 Do you remember my statistics that if you ask me about how many volunteers do have I can say that more than 200, yes and currently we have 60. First of all, it's very difficult time for all of us. And the second one sometimes it's very difficult to see this contact every day. I remember my March, 2022, I started to work in the Datallion as...

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According to a Deloitte Report from last year, “The UK has one of the poorest rates of social mobility in the developed world. This means that people born into low-income families, regardless of their talent, or their hard work, do not have the same access to opportunities as those born into more privileged circumstances”.

Charities like The National Tutoring Programme, the National Access programme, the Sutton Trust, The Social Mobility Foundation, Career Ready, UpReach are working hard to support young people in difficult circumstances. However, we are unlikely to see any transformational change without political will, finances, a joined up approach between the government, private sector and charities. And of course a mindset change.

A couple of weeks back I had two members of the Career Ready Youth Advisory Board on my podcast. For those who don’t know Career Ready, it is the national social mobility charity founded in 2002 to boost social mobility by empowering young people and giving their talents a platform to flourish. Career Ready now has a network of 1000 employer supporters, 3500 volunteers and have have so far reached over 200000 young people including supporting 30000 young people on its high impact Career Ready post-16 programme.

Both my guests Victoria Ayodeji and Marley Ahmed are highly self motivated, are on the path to great career journeys and deeply committed to giving back. And they are involved with various initiatives which support them in this ambition. Essentially these Gen Z social mobility advocates and role models, believing in walking the talk.

In this free wheeling conversation, we spoke about their early years, educational attainment,

👉🏾 Role of support networks and intermediaries like Career Ready or the Social Mobility Foundation

👉🏾 The Role of mentors in learning and making career choices

👉🏾 Their experience as Chair and member of the Youth Advisory Board at Career Ready

👉🏾 Advocacy and what giving back means for them

👉🏾 Social mobility in the UK and challenges

👉🏾 Role models, the future, change and many other uplifting issues…..

Depressingly a Sutton Trust research from 2022 reiterated something most of us already know - that opportunities are still determined by background. The research shockingly predicted a fall in income mobility for poorer young people due to the impact of the pandemic and the cost of living crisis.

What do we ensure that young people from disadvantaged background do not fall through the cracks........Who is to be held accountable for lack of support and access to opportunities?

Shownotes:

Memorable passages from the podcast:

Victoria: Hi everyone. My name's Victoria.

Victoria: So I recently graduated from university, so I went to Cambridge and I studied geography. I am also the Chair of the Career Ready Youth Advisory Board. Beyond that as well, I'm very interested in pop culture. I'm also a DJ. I'm also very interested in storytelling. I've been public speaking for the last 10 years and I'm also very passionate about social impacts. That's probably me in a nutshell and I'm trying to be a content creator as well. So feel free to follow me on socials.

Marley: That is quite an introduction. I'm Marley I'm a graduate University of Essex. I'm also a member of the Career Ready Youth Board. I completed the program in 2017. By the time that this goes out, I'll be part of the first-ever cohort of Merky FC, working at Adidas in a community's role with the football space. And I'm also very heavily interested in social mobility, having done my dissertation on social mobility and achieved a first class.

Marley: Essentially I think growing up in council estate it has many pros and cons and I could go into detail all day, but I really do feel like growing up within my community you had to have thick skin. There was a lot of experiences that we went through and a lot of things we saw that made us build up a lot of resilience.

Victoria: For me, it probably all started from when I was pretty young. For some context, I'm an introvert and oftentimes when you grow up as an introvert or someone who is very shy, probably until age 14. Why is this is important? Being an introvert from a young age, I was always very, very self-aware. I always knew and understood the social issues that were happening in my community. I grew up in inner-city London, and that gave me a drive to succeed in life and look for opportunities where possible.

Victoria: So that's pretty much how I then thought more widely about the kind of access to support I can get. For example, when I was in school, I had access to charities like Career Ready, which is how we're on this podcast. But then also I applied for programs with organisations like the Sutton Trust and Target Oxbridge, and that's run by Rare recruitment. Also into universityThe Social mobility foundation. So these are all charities that operate in the UK and also UpReach as well. A lot of these opportunities I just found through Google. And I think for me, it kind of showed me that there was access to opportunities for young people from less advantaged backgrounds.

Victoria: That kind of got me interested in trying to better myself and get access to different things. That kind of encouraged me to kinda do the work I'm doing today. So whether that's mentoring, speaking in schools across the UK but I think also beyond this as well. When I was actually 17, I wrote an essay about social community in the UK. So this is back in 2016 when Teresa May was still prime Minister, and I wrote an essay about grammar schools in the UK and whether or not they should be reintroduced. I've been very interested in this topic for a long time. For me, like a lot of my childhood experiences have kind of been tied to social impact education.

Victoria: Even when I was 15 years old, I gave a school assembly talk about education because this is in wake of Nelson Mandelas passing away. So yeah, I've been very passionate about education and access to opportunities for those who are less advantaged in society.

Victoria: Yeah. I think for me, I thankfully went to a school that, yes they focused on education attainment. Same at home, there was the focus on trying to get really good grades, but there also was a focus, now that I look back on it, on holistic learning. So I went to a school that really pushed us to make sure we were doing extracurricular activities.

Victoria: For example, when I was 16, I co-founded a project called Youth Go Global, which was basically 15 young people in East London who were fundraising and volunteering to go on a cultural exchange program to Hungary and then also to Gambia. Again, this has nothing to do with educational attainment. But it probably had a big impact on my personal development from a young age. So I think for me, Educational attainment has always been quite important because the way I've seen it is about, if you get certain grades, it allows you to jump through certain hoops, but as you know, in society grades are a big thing that matter, that's other thing important for a young person's personal development.

Marley: I, I guess for me there was a push. I think I briefly stated earlier and if not, I'll state now, but I was a first generation student, so I come from a family of six, a big family. I'm one of the latter middle children and essentially the only one who probably would complete my entire education.

Marley: And my parents essentially, I remember studying sociology at A level and seeing this, and it's always stuck with me. There are three types of parents when it came to educational attainment. Parents that had the the support child, the parents that were disengaged, and a type of parent in the middle that didn't have the cultural or financial capital in a sense, but really wanted you to do well.

Marley: And I feel like I was grateful to have both my mother and father in my life who supported me, always pushed me and said phrases like, you can be wherever you wanna be. That really, really helped. So I never felt too much pressure. And then I guess at university I always had my own individual why, in terms of why I wanted to achieve my degree and I wanted to go on to do.

Marley: And so I guess there was a push in educational attainment by myself, but I think more so it was the experiences that come in higher education. So I specifically applied for Sussex because of opportunities, like in my first year, I was able to kinda study via sponsorship at Nan Yang University in Singapore for four to five weeks.

Marley: Or I was able to do internships in my second year because my university had a focus on increasing diversity. So factors like that were also very important to me and helped me stay driven, I guess.

Victoria: Yes. I think they're really important. Obviously there is the cliched saying that a child is raised in a village, but I think having family, teachers, community is really important. And also, again, that's a point worth remembering. So for me, a lot of my journey has been enhanced by having amazing mentors who I've met through the charities I mentioned, and also some mentors who I just met through social media as well.

Victoria: So I think it makes a difference in regard to exposure. I always say when, if I'm doing my public speaking events, that you don't know what you don't know. And when you do have a mentor who is a lot more accomplished than you, someone who has achieved what you are aspiring to achieve, the opportunities now become endless because you now know what is available to you.

Victoria: Also I think that's, there's a lot to be said about when it comes to access to education for young people. I think as a society as a whole, we all play a role in trying to ensure that young people irrespective of their background, are able to have access to opportunities. I think it makes a massive difference when it comes to supporting these students.

Victoria: And I also think that there is a lot to be said about the difference between emotional support and material support. Cuz sometimes, you might have someone who grew up in low an income family where their parents can't necessarily give them material support, but they can give them emotional support by supporting them in regards to what they might wanna do.

Victoria: But then someone might come from a wealthy family, where the parents might give them material support, but they might not have emotional support. But then also vice versa, you've got people who come from wealthy families who have their material and their emotional support. So I think there's a lot to be said about trying to think more holistically about a young person's personal development and also an adult's personal development.

Victoria: We need both the material access, but then also the emotional access to our own personal and professional development.

Marley: Victoria hit the nail on the head in terms of it takes a village to raise a child and I think that's evident in walks of life.

Marley: I think teachers have a key role and they're put under a lot of pressure in various ways, but I think back to science in about year 11. So a couple of years ago, about six or seven. But there was one teacher that would essentially if it wasn't up to the mark and pulling our weight, we'd stay behind and do extra science lessons.

Marley: And I look back now and it was just being in that space, still after school, we all focused and kind of gave us all a growth mindset. In the sense that a bit before everyone else started revising for GCSEs or A Levels, we would just come together and do some flashcards or do some practice questions. And it was really key to have that space and have a few jokes here and there as well, but then also be able to focus.

Marley: And I believed that all of my friendship group some predicted Cs and so on, we all got Bs or higher. So I think teachers have a key role and in terms of teachers, they have workload and then they unconsciously take on that emotional support element as well.

Marley: And that's where I'm coming to what Victoria said about mentoring and where I thought it could be so effective. And I guess something that I'm gonna try and do over the next couple of years. And hopefully I have a good enough network and people around me is a bit more focused on sponsorship. In the sense if there's any opportunities arise that any of my mentees I feel like are suitable for, if I know someone in that field or I know of a job or role, I'm able to talk highly of my mentee when they're not in the room. And I feel like mentorship is amazing and I'm a big advocate. I have mentor, mentees, but over the next couple of years in my life, I'd like to focus a bit more on sponsorship.

Victoria: Yes. So basically the Youth Advisory Board was set up in 2021, so both Marley and I were on the very first cohort, trailblazers.

Victoria: The purpose of the youth Advisory Board is to ensure that with the activities of Career Ready because it, because it's a youth centred charity, we kind of wanna make sure that young people's voices are fundamentally heard when it comes to different changes. But then also trying to kind of foster a really strong community of alumni on the program.

Victoria: So whether that's ex-students who did the program, also ex-mentors, and to kind of ensure that you can learn so much from the Career ready program. Doing Career Ready when I was in school changed my life. But it's also about trying to encourage and spur on those life-changing moments post the program.

Victoria: So different experiences that I've had so far was be given the opportunity to speak alongside the CEO Tokunbo at events. So encouraging employer partners to sign up as mentors, that have been very successful, so just sharing my journey of Career Ready.

Victoria: I think for me as well, running live events. So I did an event with a personal branding agency I interned at called WOW. So it was a co-led event why I worked with my manager, Phoebe, and we were basically running a session on personal branding and how young people can use social media for good. And we've also run events on entrepreneurship and also done a variety of collaboration events with different organisations like for example, Apprentice Nation, which kind of encourage more young people to have access to knowledge on apprenticeships in the UK.

Victoria: And so I think for me, the reason why I wanted be on the board, but also be Chair of the board was, I knew how transformational career was for my own life. For example, I had a mentor who is probably one of the most amazing women I've met in my life. Like, she really just changed the game for me because through her network, she allowed me to get free tuition for A-level economics in school. And I will tell this story whenever I speak and everyone's just like, whoa, that's crazy. And I think that's kinda why I'm so passionate about mentoring. That's why I'm very passionate about giving. And yeah, I think when it's early ages, but I think it's about trying to encourage that momentum post the two-year program for students to kind of ensure that they're still developing personally, but also professionally.

Marley: Yeah. What Victoria said, amazing summary. And I think similar to me, so from Willard Common where I live, where I did my Career Ready Internship. Until I was 17, I'd never been to Canary Wharf. It never comes to anyone from my community's mind. Let's go Canary Wharf for a day, it's not really something you do, but you can see the huge buildings, right up in the sky and you're like, wow, like that's amazing.

Like, I wonder what they do there, or I'd love to just go and see what London's like from their view. And it was really ironic, one day myself and a couple people I'd met on the program were just all there and we managed to get coffee on about the fortieth floor in Citibank.

Marley: And we were looking and we were just in awe. We're all from different parts of London, all the outskirts of London, and we're just like, wow. It's, it's just such a beautiful and amazing view. And I think in terms of the youth board, the reason I wanted to get involved is because of that engagement we get to have with young people. And I see us in a sense as like a sounding board for any initiatives or ideas they wanna come up with as a charity. And it's mutually beneficial in the sense that they want us to developgovernance skills, develop any skills that are transferrable that we wanna work on, i.e. public speaking.

Marley: I'm very fortunate to have worked on their ACE events service, the event toward the start of the year with various schools from up and down the country come together in London. And I was able to do a sofa Q and A there, and then also at the awards event, I was also able to further do some public speaking in terms of giving out awards. And experience with like in the sense of working with the alumni relationships manager and thinking about how we could further connect and work with our cohorts and other cohorts. It gives us a range of skills to develop and the organisation gets a sounding board and some different perspectives on ways they can engage with young people. So it's really nice that it's mutually beneficial too, in my opinion.

Sudha: Brilliant. Marley, I noticed that you volunteered with Global Enterprise experience as a team leader. What do you do there in that role?

Marley: See that was an amazing opportunity that again my university offered. And...

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Not all Asians have the same stories and experiences. My guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast this week Farzana Baduel, a successful entrepreneur and Co-Founder of Curzon PR was inspired by her mother and her aunts who ran their own successful businesses in Pakistan. She also considers her identity as a British Asian to be her strength, something that has helped her straddle two worlds.

In the episode we spoke about her entrepreneurial journey, setting up multiple businesses,

👉🏾 The impact of a world in flux on the PR/Comms Industry

👉🏾 Comms on Board, has the time come?

👉🏾 Diversity washing

👉🏾 Purpose vs/and Profit

👉🏾 Her definition of leadership and leadership style

We also spoke about her role models, beliefs, immigrant work ethics she inherited from her parents, work like balance, kindness, believing in the potential for what we can achieve……

Memorable Passages from the podcast:

👉🏾Thank you so much for having me.

👉🏾 I guess I am a mom and a wife. And I also run a PR firm called Curzon and British Asian, married to an Italian, love diversity, live diversity. And I love being a communications bridge between different cultures.

👉🏾 I think my identity it shapes what I do. So sort of being brought up in two cultures, the South Asian culture and the British culture, it just innately made it quite intuitive to work not only within the British and the South Asian culture but to work with lots of other cultures.

👉🏾 Because I think when you sort of straddle two cultures growing up, you have the ability to have that sort of level of empathy of being an outsider and that really helps to build bridges, build trust. And I find my sort of identity as a British Asian has massively helped me not just straddling these two worlds, but straddling multiple worlds and most importantly connecting worlds.

👉🏾 I think I was quite lucky because my maternal grandfather was a huge sort of feminist and he used to always say to his daughters, my mother and my aunt, education is really important and career, so do not stop at just the education. So in Pakistan, he had five daughters and he was a huge sort of proponent of women working, women in the workplace back then in Pakistan.

👉🏾 So I think that sort of really percolated throughout our family. So, growing up my mother was well educated, my aunts had businesses in Pakistan, my mother had businesses. And so I grew up there were women in leadership positions, be it a small business, a large business, freelance, it was the norm for me.

👉🏾 So for me, I kind of almost aped the women who are in my family and but what I really admire is actually those women out there who set up businesses who didn't have those role models in their family. I think those women should be celebrated, cuz women like me, actually, I had role models growing up.

👉🏾 So it was something that growing up, it just nurtured me into believing that is also a path that I can easily take. Sure. Well I left university after my second year, so at the age of 20, I set up my first business, which was a tax business, and I ran it for around 10 years. And then the PR business, I've been running for about 13 years.

👉🏾And I would say that actually the tax business was fairly straightforward and easy. I think also because it just came naturally to me. I was good at mathematics, I was good at processes. And so the tax business was relatively easy for me to run and do well in. I'd say the PR firm was a massive struggle, the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

👉🏾 I think it took me about 10 years to really understand and feel confident about being a PR person because I set up the firm, foolishly without ever working in PR before. And I thought I was just being brave, I think in hindsight I was just a bit foolhardy.

👉🏾 So it was incredibly difficult. It was like the blind leading the blind. I think if I could turn back the clock, I would've worked in other agencies, but I was always scared about would I be able to get a job at an agency back then, because I had an accounting background. So And also I had a one-year-old daughter.

👉🏾 I sort of thought to myself, well, actually, let me just, set up a business in this world and learn it as I go. Because I didn't feel I had opportunities to get into agencies back then. So that was sort of the rationale behind it, but incredibly hard massive sort of imposter syndrome. I'd almost talk myself outta contracts sometimes. And that's not really helpful in sort of revenue growth.

👉🏾 And I think that it took me about a solid 10 years. of which I'd spend weekends, holidays, reading up about PR. I'd read lots of PR books and blogs and podcasts and I would just consume everything. I think I stopped feeling like an imposter when Oxford asked me to be their resident PR expert at the university. And I thought, okay, maybe. I do know something about the craft. I think when you have imposter syndrome the pursuit of external validation is really important. But I think I'm now at that stage where I don't need that external validation anymore. There's an innate confidence that I have, but it's taken me so long to get there.

👉🏾 I think the good has been that there has been a lot more agencies that have cropped up. People have felt a lot more confident to start up PR firms because the barriers of entry is much lower. Because before you'd have to have money to buy an office space. And now because there's a remote model that's become acceptable culturally in the world of business. There's been a lot more people who are able to set up, their own business in the PR industry.

👉🏾 And I think that's been really positive. Cause it's just lowering the barriers of entry which I think is a good thing. I think the second is again, because remote work is increasingly acceptable, what's happened is that there's a lot more people with caring responsibilities. So looking after the elderly or children, or sick relatives, they are able to sort of manage their caring responsibilities as well as work. And before it used to be very binary. It was like, you're either gonna be a carer or you are going to have a career. And now actually you can have that third path, where you can still have a career.

👉🏾 And also I think PR can be very London-centric. So what's wonderful again about remote work is the PR industry doesn't have to be so London-centric. PR firms can hire people from other parts of the UK, and that levelling up agenda that was part of the sort of government's narrative can really take place through remote work.

👉🏾So I think that's the good side. I think the bad side is that there's been a lot of uncertainty. It's led to a lot of anxiety, I've seen a lot of spike in mental health issues, and how to sort of, balance this new way of working with ensuring that people are also feeling supported, but at the same time, the productivity is also there.

👉🏾 So trying to find a balance between ensuring that the culture is supportive in the workplace as well as the productivity, cuz it's often, sometimes a balance between one or the other

👉🏾 Very much so. I think also because as we're sort of moved from the emphasis of the state of being the customer to sort of stakeholder capitalism. The stakeholders are not just the customer in terms of priority, but also the internal stakeholder, the employee as well as government, journalists, communities, suppliers and because of stakeholder capital. It's sort of really brought PR professionals to the fore because before it was often if you saw somebody on the board they have a marketing background, because of course customers king, but now actually multiple stakeholders are king and queens. And consequently, the PR people are the ones who navigate stakeholders.

👉🏾 And so they are the ones that actually increasingly are needed at board level in order to spearhead the strategy as well as identify these sort of strengths and weaknesses and opportunities and threats, which PR people are naturally horizon scanners. We're always looking at context and increasingly because of risk and geopolitical strife.

👉🏾And us moving towards a multipolar world, horizon scanning is increasingly important. And I think CEOs and chairs of boards, they beginning to realise that actually PR people hold the skillset of horizon scanning, identifying risks, managing risks, crisis communications, building reputation and resilience around the organisation.

👉🏾And the fact that reputation is an asset on the balance sheet that needs to be protected. And that's where I think PR people are becoming increasingly sort of more in demand. And we are moving away from the old way of thinking on boards where they used to just have a marketing person on. But understanding that other stakeholders also, communications with them need to be managed.

👉🏾 I think that's why it's important to have people of colour in the decision-making room because when they come up with the ideas for the diversity inclusion campaigns. It’s more likely that somebody, an ethnic minority can say, hold on, you can't just basically do diversity washing. What is actually the experience of an ethnic minority within your organisation as an employee?

👉🏾 And really try and remind them that there shouldn't be that wide gap between perception and reality. Whatever you communicate about your organisation on the outside really has to authentically connect with what it's really like on the inside. And I think there's obviously been a lot of greenwashing, a lot of diversity washing.

👉🏾I think the fact is that millennials and Gen Z, they care passionately about these subjects, but also they are not stupid. They are incredibly savvy and I think what they hate more than anything is actually hypocrisy. And there are a lot of organisations that lack self-awareness, that don't understand how to approach diversity and inclusion that feel that just by putting a disproportionate amount of ethnic minorities in their advertising campaign, that means that they are sufficiently woke in order to be able to, speak to their target audience. And they don't understand that this generation, they will go on the website, they will look at the leadership team, they will have a look and see, what diversity do you have in the senior leadership team. They will take into consideration the sort of lived experience of the ethnic minorities working within that organisation. And I think they've got to be extremely careful, they've gotta make sure that they are aligned internally and it's almost better to sort of, really underpromise and over deliver when it comes to diversity.

👉🏾 So really, I think also to be vulnerable and say, what, we recognise that we need to do better. We're not there yet, this is the path that we are gonna follow, this is how we're gonna measure ourselves and we're gonna be transparent in our reporting. And if we fall short, we will let you know and we will have a contingency plan on how to bring us back in line with where we want to get.

👉🏾And I think sharing that journey, cause nobody expects organisations to change overnight. But really having that sort of transparency, that sense of humility. And that sort of, underpromising and over-delivering, I think would really builds that trust in organisation.

👉🏾 I think what's happened now is, I think down to stakeholders. Before it used to be very much focused on the shareholder, and now actually it isn't, that's the harsh reality. And the reality is that actually employees is as important, if not more than the shareholder. Because ultimately a business cannot really survive without employees.

👉🏾 And so, what's happened is I think that the public feel more empowered because they are able to communicate, through social media, they're able to really create sort of coalitions and campaigns together, on Twitter, for instance. So I think people are more empowered, which means people are sort of forcing organisations. I think because they perhaps feel let down by governments that they're thinking, well, actually the governments really haven't delivered. We don't really trust them to deliver. And the only mechanism as a public to make ….

👉🏾 But we need to just direct them into the areas that we care about, which is not profits but obviously they understand that businesses need to be sustainable, but they care about planet and people. And that's where I think, we're getting much better frameworks like the ESG framework in order to ensure that we hold companies to account.

👉🏾So I think we're very different than the sort of greed is good mantra of the eighties. And that's perhaps a philosophy I think that makes a lot of hardcore capitalists feel quite nervous. But I think at the same time, we are dealing with some existential threats around climate change, the sense of inequality between the haves and the have nots are widening. I’m a capitalist, but I think fundamentally it's a good thing to look at profits as well as people, as well as planets because a lot of costs and the P&L accounts of businesses are environmental costs that haven't been captured.

👉🏾 And the harm that they're doing to the planet as well as the communities are not there in the P&L account. So I think the reporting around companies, it's good that the ESG element is brought in because a company polluting rivers you don't see that harm and expense it does to the environment on the P&L. I think we're moving towards, a sort of purposeful business, which is what we need, at this stage of our humanity, our journey. It's an evolution, I'd say.

👉🏾 I would say that I define leadership as the ability to articulate a mission. And to help others along in their journey towards that mission. I would say that my sort of leadership style has massively changed. I think that in the early years of my businesses, I think, I was quite blinkered, a bit of a hamster and a hamster wheel just kept on working, very much immigrant work ethic that I inherited from my mom and dad. Working seven days a week, extremely long hours, I would work throughout my holidays, and I thought I was doing the right thing. And I thought the more hours I put in, the more successful that I would be and the better the business would be.

👉🏾 I've been running businesses for about 25 years now, so I think only I had an epiphany five years ago. So 20 years of sort of running my business I think was wrong because I just worked to death and as a result I was grumpy. Yeah, I wasn't nice to work with, I was short-fused, I was highly critical, I wasn't empathetic, and it was to do with my well-being, because my well-being was low priority. I was always grumpy. And looking back, I thought I just wouldn't wanna work with myself. And just about five years ago I thought, you know what?

👉🏾 I want to actually stop working weekends, I wanna stop working holidays. I want to be present for my family. I want to do walks in the park every morning with my dog. And I want to take holidays and weekends. And since I've done that, I've ironically started working normal hours and consequently, I'm much nicer to work with, I like myself more, my the staff retention has increased. I often get sort of, you know, positive compliments from my colleagues who are like, I really enjoy working with you, never had that before. So I think actually, the game changer for leadership for me has been if you take care of your own mental health and well-being and you don't work yourself to the ground, then you have much more capacity and energy for kindness.

👉🏾 And I think kindness is that magic ingredient in teams that really build the foundations for high-performance teams. And it took me 20 years to get the kindness memo and not just kindness to others, but kindness to self.

👉🏾Gosh. I mean, I think I have different role models for different things, so, Obama, I think he is such a wonderful role model in terms of his elegance, his ability to orate and his ability to really give people a sense of optimism just through his oratory skills. I think he is absolutely incredible. I really admired Margaret Thatcher for being the first woman for her political longevity, for her ability to really care about the country. Of course, she didn't get everything right and she got a lot of things wrong. She's human, she isn't a saint.

👉🏾But just to withstand that level of criticism and constant undermining as the woman, as a mother of twins I just thought what a woman. And so I admire these, women politicians with a thirst, because I think that the amount of criticism that was levelled at them would've been a lot higher because of their gender and they just, ploughed through. On the same vein, Angela Merkel, as well these women in politics who have really been able to maintain their position I think is extraordinary.

👉🏾 And I would also say actually the people who are, you know, sort of role models are, people who are in public service. So people who just devote their life to public service. I recently had a lunch with an old school friend of mine from secondary school and she's a social worker and she looks after kids between the age of sort of 16 to 18 who issues with crime and the law and drugs and vulnerability. And she's literally just devoted her entire life. And that's all she does is look after them. And she takes the work home with her in the sense that mentally she cares, she worries about them.

👉🏾When I had lunch with her, I thought, God, what an amazing, amazing woman. And there are millions of them in public service or in caring responsibilities, be it nurses, be it people work in care homes who have very hard jobs physically and emotionally. And they get on with it. And what motivates them is not recognition or intellectual stimulation or money but is actually, walking the talk of genuinely caring for people. I find they're really inspiring and I'm not that person. I know that, but I admire them for it.

👉🏾 I believe in the potential for humanity. And that's in the positive sense, we've got huge amounts of challenges ahead of us. But I believe that we have it in ourselves to create the utopia that we are trying to create...

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One of the best things about hosting my podcast is that I get to spotlight some incredible people from across the world, especially people from previously underrepresented groups and communities. A couple of weeks back I spoke with @Leela Stake, Global Lead FH4Inclusion, Co-Lead True MOSAIC DE&I Practice. Out side of work she is Chair of the Board of Standford’s Haas Centre for Public Service.

In the course of our conversation we spoke about her influences, childhood, her identity as a multiracial woman, role models, her current role, the intersectionality between sustainability & equity & inclusion, her journey to leadership, leadership in general, what orgs can do to create equity inspired designs to building inclusive organisations, being an eternal optimist and many other things…….

Hearing people’s stories of lived experiences and resilience (it is a word I don’t like anymore) is humbling, and revealing. The stories we hear teach us, that it may be tough but we all have the power to define who we want to be, rise, reach for the stars and pave the way for those who follow in our wake.

Want to hear more, head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾

“So to me this is a key year as we are in 2023, and we think about some of the headwinds or economic uncertainties that we may be facing. This is a time to really hold leaders accountable for what they said that they would do and make sure that we're not either stalling progress or moving backwards.

We have to make sure we stay really united and lock arms with the people that we're working with. It's just tremendously important that women leaders support other women leaders, that people from under-resourced communities support each other and lift each other up. So that continues to be, I think, just so important to me personally and so important to moving this work forward.” Leela Stake

Memorable Passages from the podcast:

👉🏾It's so nice to be with you, Sudha. Thank so much for having me..

👉🏾 Oh, there's so many. Well, I am currently a global lead for FH for Inclusion at Fleishman Hillard and Co-lead of True Mosaic, which is our global diversity, equity and inclusion practice. I'm also a multiracial woman, I am a parent of two amazing teenagers who are 13 and 15 years old. And happily married to the love of my life.

👉🏾 So those are a few of the influences in my life. As I think about influences, I really have to look into my past. Both of my parents, I'm a minister's daughter, a Unitarian minister's daughter, so my dad grew up in a small town in Kansas. My mother was an immigrant to the United States from India. And I had an amazing older brother growing up. So in our family of four, all three of those people influenced me very profoundly.

👉🏾Yeah, it's incredibly important to me. I think that sometimes you can't know where you're going in the world, until you know very deeply where you've come from. So it's something that I think about a lot in terms of my identity. I think, it was maybe more common now to be multiracial, but growing up maybe it was less common.

👉🏾 And I think that there are both superpowers that come from it and also challenges. In one way, I feel like I could go to almost anywhere in the world and feel like I fit in. I have kind of olive-tanned skin and so there's many places I would go and people would wonder if I was from that place.

👉🏾And there's something really beautiful and amazing about that. On the other hand, I think that it can be really challenging because in some ways you feel like you don't completely fit in anywhere. People will sort of say, oh, you're exotic, or, oh, isn't that unusual. And I would love the time that I spent in India, but I also didn't speak the language.

👉🏾 I studied Indian classical dance and felt very connected to my family there, but it was a little bit different for me in terms of the way that I grew up. And similarly at those times in the United States, there weren't a lot of people who looked like me. And in some ways that can be good. I think maybe because you're seen as unique and in other ways, I think you have to kind of even more than some other people, pave your own path.

👉🏾 Yes. I mean, I get to have the amazing privilege and opportunity to really help achieve our ambition to become the most inclusive global communications agency in the world. That was an ambition that our CEO John Saunders set out. Probably about five years ago. So before people were talking as much as they are now about diversity, equity, and inclusion.

👉🏾And I get to wear a couple of different hats. So my role in FH for Inclusion is really leading a lot of our pro bono and volunteer efforts around the world. For our 70th anniversary, we launched a desire to unite all of our global offices in celebration of the 70th anniversary by joining together in volunteer and pro bono service to help nonprofit organisations around the world.

👉🏾 And to date, we've worked with more than 130 organisations, more than 35,000 hours of volunteer and pro bono service. So that's been really an incredible track record and it keeps on going which has been great. And as co-lead of True Mosaic, our global diversity, equity and inclusion practice, we're really working on how do we bring diversity, equity, and inclusion to the center of our client work.

👉🏾 That's the work that drives us each and every day. And so really, I mean, our ambition is quite great. We hope to bring DE and I as a core service to all of the clients that we work with ultimately, and we're making really great in in roads to doing that. We've worked with more than a hundred clients to date and we've built a team of more than 160 counsellors around the world.

👉🏾 And I would say the one thing that's also kind of interesting about True Mosaic, cuz we're really talking about how do we bring people together who have not only, different kinds of professional expertise, but that we're really a true reflection of society that we live in. And we think about all of the different facets of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

👉🏾So that might be culture, race, and ethnicity, but it might also be gender identity, sexual orientation, people with disabilities of different kinds. People who have had different backgrounds and different experiences, and we really feel like that enriches the work that we do.

👉🏾Thank you so much for asking that question Sudha, I couldn't agree more. And I think that it is really important to bring these pieces of experience together and I think unfortunately, I've even heard some trends in the opposite direction. I think now in times of economic uncertainty, like there's been more talk about these worlds maybe being pitted against each other or competition for resources.

👉🏾And I think you're absolutely right if we're doing this right, we're working together and really these things are inextricably linked. As we move forward, we can't think about climate solutions without thinking about the communities that are disproportionately affected by the climate crisis that we're in.

👉🏾 And we have to think about solutions that truly work for everybody. And I think that there's so many ways in which diversity, equity, and inclusion, and environmental sustainability go hand in hand and I have really found it to be a great asset in my work that I have worked in both of these spaces and will continue to do so.

👉🏾I think maybe the one way I'd like to answer this question is with just a concrete example. Because I think it's really easy to get stuck in sort of generalities about what are these different types of terms and how do we define them, and that's really important. But then I think we have to get down to what does that actually mean when the rubber hits the road. So I'll give an example at our own organisation or in our own industry So the communications industry and the agency world as like many industries historically not been very diverse. So if we're talking about advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion, there are few things we need to do from a talent perspective.

👉🏾 We need to start building the talent pipeline, starting with people who are beginning their careers, and that's really important. So we have an amazing fellowship program that helps to do just that for people who are early in career. If we just wait for people who are early in their career to rise up the ranks, we could be waiting even if people progress fairly fast. It's still a number of years down the road before those people become senior leaders. So we need to be thinking really proactively about how do we also bring people into our industry who are from other fields, and how does that enrich the work that we do? And whether those people are former journalists, whether they worked in-house or in government or with NGOs of different kinds.

👉🏾 And then, if we're bringing those people in, we have to recognise they are coming in with a wealth of experience. They have many gifts, but they haven't been working for the past two decades in the agency world like I have. And so equity is really about how do we recognise that some people may need additional support and deserve additional support to have a level playing field and to kind of create the world that we want to live in, the kind of profession that we want to live in. And so that's something we've been thinking a lot about is how do we make sure we create really successful on ramps, equitable on-ramps for people who didn't maybe have the same opportunities to thrive and become leaders in our industry.

👉🏾And so I just think when we're talking about these different terms, it's helpful to really get into the programs and what are we actually trying to accomplish, and that's just one example.

👉🏾 Yes, and I think the journey continues, right? I mean, I hope that I'm at a point that I'm not even halfway through my career at this point. And so it's something that I have thought about most days of my career and will continue to think about as well. Yes. I do think that in some ways it has been more difficult.

👉🏾 And I think that there are probably a few examples of that. I think really early in my career I started working abroad in a number of different countries. And I remember I would sometimes go to meetings where I was the only woman in the room or one of just a few women in the room and that can be really challenging. And I think that you have to be kind of brave in a way and not be scared off by that and sometimes maybe work harder than others to kind of maybe get to the same place. I think that there's still a tremendous amount of sort of mommy tracking that can happen.

👉🏾 And sometimes I think people feel like they're doing that as a courtesy to you. Like, oh, I didn't even think about you for that job because I just assumed that you wouldn't want it. I remember that from some of the early years of having children and I think people didn't mean to do it maliciously, but I remember in one case I really wanted to put myself forward for a position cuz someone above me was leaving the organisation.

👉🏾 And I thought to myself, so it's really inopportune timing. I have two young kids at the time, and so it wasn't really ideal to be taking on a much more significant role, but I also thought to myself, it's either now or I might have to wait several years for another opportunity like this. And I remember very vividly making that call and sort of getting the response. Oh, like, I really think you could do this job, I just hadn't thought about you for it. And I ended up taking that position and ended up being a huge leap forward for me in my career. And it wasn't ideal timing, but it worked out great and it wasn't that others were closed off to the idea. It was just that I needed to advocate for myself to put my name in the running.

👉🏾 Absolutely. Yes. I mean, I think that there's probably a few things to this. One is just to make sure that we are holding leaders accountable. I think the interesting thing about where we've been over the past few years, you're right, diversity, equity and inclusion is nothing new.

👉🏾 However, it has reached a fever pitch and gained a lot more momentum in the past few years. And there's been a lot of talk as we kind of were in the depths of 2020 and coming out of it. This is a movement, not a moment, but now it's sort of like where we really get to take people to task if they're not leaning into that.

👉🏾 So to me this is a key year as we are in 2023, and we think about some of the headwinds or economic uncertainties that we may be facing. This is a time to really hold leaders accountable for what they said that they would do and make sure that we're not either stalling progress or moving backwards.

👉🏾 So I do think that this is a really, really critical period. And I think the other thing I would just say practically is, we have to make sure we stay really united and lock arms with the people that we're working with. And so it's just tremendously important that women leaders support other women leaders, that people from under-resourced communities support each other and lift each other up. So that continues to be, I think, just so important to me personally and so important to moving this work forward.

👉🏾 I think it's hard to generalise, I do think that there's a lot of studies that show that women tend to be more empathetic leaders. So I don't think that's true of every individual, but I think on the whole, that probably is true. I think being an active learner is really important. And also being able to admit sometimes when you're wrong is a really important trait.

👉🏾 I think that it's important to lead with confidence, but it's also important to be a really active learner. Every day I feel like I make mistakes and need to learn and improve from them. So I find that to be an incredibly important trait. And I also think being a really active listener, really being able to hear people and the conversations that I have. I get to manage many wonderful people and really making sure before I jump to a conclusion or a solution, reminding myself to take a moment to really be a good listener is so important.

👉🏾 Yes. I think that's really well sad. And there's a reason why we generalise as well because we have to follow the data points and really see where the trend lines are moving. I remember that was one of the things that was really striking to me, when I was at college at Stanford, I took a women's leadership course when I was doing my graduate work. And it was mostly with women from the business school and the statistics were really staggering. If you looked at all of the graduates of the business school there and just compared it by sort of gender identity, you really found that most women dropped out of the workforce. Even like extremely well educated women once they became parents and you don't wanna generalise because each person is different and people's leadership styles are different. But there is something to be said for, we have to see what the research shows too, because it may reveal some trend lines that we need to take a really hard look at.

👉🏾 Yeah, I think about this all the time. I mean, I had two amazing Indian women influences in my life, more than two. But two come to mind, I guess for this interview. My mother was, as I mentioned, an immigrant to the US from India. She was an economist, extremely smart, amazing woman. She passed away eight years ago. I miss her every day. But she decided that she didn't feel like she could continue her career and raise her children once we were born. And so she stayed at home and was an incredibly engaged, amazing mother. I always think about it, I wish she was still here to call and ask her for advice, especially now as I'm parenting two teenagers.

👉🏾And then I had my Nani, my maternal grandmother was an amazing woman in so many ways. She was on the Mumbai City Council. She lost her husband tragically in a car accident when my mom was six years old. So she had three children and really paved her own path, which was really ahead of her time and quite extraordinary. I think about both of them a lot because I don't really want to make a trade off between being the kind of mother that I want to be and being the kind of professional that I want to be. And I have these two amazing influences of women from my past, but I don't think we talk about this enough. It is not easy.

👉🏾 It's really not easy to try to do it all, and I'm most of the way through having my children at home, and so I've been able to figure it out. But I think the adage, the days are long but the years are short, is really true. There are days that feel really challenging and so when some people say it goes by so quickly, I remember thinking, wait, this doesn't feel fast, what about when you're sleep deprived, and what about when you're just like, oh, is it worth it? Can I do it? But on the other hand, here I am, and now the kids are so much older and so the years have felt short and fast in that way.

👉🏾 So I think it's just a way of saying to your question I don't think the structures have been kind of built for people raising children and I think it continues to be a struggle. And I think we're starting to do a better job but I think that we have keep working on it. I had the real pleasure of working with Sheryl Sandberg on the launch of lean In and, it's interesting because it's in our common vernacular now to talk about kind of leaning into opportunities. But that's something that , has been talked about more over the course of my career.

👉🏾 And I think that's a good thing, and I think we have to continue to think about how we put the right structures in place to support people to get through the years of the parenting, years of their lives. Women and men for sure women. And because it's just true, like I know five years from now my kids will likely be out of the house and in college and I will have more time on my hands than I do now, and right now it's a matter of packing a lot of it in. So we need to continue to support each other to get through these years with gusto.

👉🏾 Yes. I mean...

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In November 2021 Indian announced its updated NDC - to achieve net zero carbon emission by 2070. And to meet 50% of its electricity requirements from renewable energy sources by 2030. This was a bold and significant moment not just for India, but for the fight against climate change.

India is the third largest emitter of CO2 in the world, though CO2 emissions per person put it near the bottom of the world’s emitters. The numbers are lower still if historical emissions (per person) are taken into consideration. Ditto for energy consumption - average households in India consume a tenth of what is consumed in the US (according to an IEA blog). The good news is that India has overachieved it’s commitments made at COP21 Paris Summit by meeting 40% of its power capacity from non-fossil fuels.

As the most populous country in the world, India has a long road to growth and energy demand as it speeds up its development agenda. India’s climate adaptation and mitigation efforts if successful, will be transformational for the world. The country’s private sector has a pivotal role to play towards Net Zero, by embedding sustainable strategies in their operations, identifying, deploying and adopting innovative technologies that accelerate the that journey.

India Inc. is being nudged in the right direction by SEBI's mandatory ‘Business Responsibility & Sustainability Reporting’(BRSR) rules, that will see the top 1000 companies disclose their ESG journey publicly for the first time at the end of FY23. The BRSR is framed around three aspirations: Adapting to and mitigating climate change impact; inclusive growth and transitioning to a sustainable economy.

My guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast this week is Net Zero evangelist Shailesh Haribhakti. We spoke about the drivers for ESG reporting in India, BRSR, India’s energy sector, changes in how renewable assets are owned in India, ’just transition’, EPA laws, Integrated reporting, challenges for the India Inc. and many other issues around climate change, net zero, and sustainability….

Memorable passages from the podcast:

👉🏾 I'm absolutely delighted to be in this podcast with you and conversing with you such a delight. And I'm looking forward to our conversation.

👉🏾 Well, I'm seeking to be a co-traveler on many journeys with individuals or organisations who want to achieve net positive. All my work and all my energies and my thinking and everything that I do is revolving around how can we get people to believe that if they become net positive they will also be much better scaled, very much more profitable and will certainly be green.

👉🏾 Tremendous question and I think our Prime Minister gave the world what he called "Panchamrit" which was largely focused on decarbonisation in every which way, through energy transition, through making sure that everybody gets onto the path of reducing the usage of fossil fuels and all of that. And he has followed it up by carrying that conviction into his leadership role at the G20. This is a fantastic move by the Prime Minister and by the country. It just reestablishes India's credentials that we want to be part of the solution, we do not wish to add to the problem.

👉🏾 And as proof of that, the extent to which we have built up renewable capacity is way ahead of our commitments, at least by five years. We are five years ahead in the race to establish the capacity for renewables. Now it's a matter of bringing all that capacity into the energy, make sure that the grid becomes active. Make sure that we can have continuous power through a mix of renewables based on solar, wind, bioenergy, nuclear, that is also very much now in the news and which is likely to get reactivated. And very importantly, we have a whole lot of hydro which we need to harness. So we will have this entire bunch or bouquet of renewables, which can ultimately make us confident that we can run the grid at some point in time in the future, purely on renewables.

👉🏾 Let's first talk about tractability and timelines. So we are hearing that the next budget statement itself will plug in India's commitments on climate. So we will see that not only the national budget but also the state-level budgets will start reflecting the commitment on the 17 SDGs. So that's the first point that is important to hold in our minds about India's commitment.

👉🏾 The next point, which is important, is that the people who are producing this energy are completely connected. There is a comprehensive change in the ownership patterns of these very large projects. I'm seeing that each one of them is now being held by extremely long-term patient capital, which has no exit line.

👉🏾That is a crucial thing to note about India and the way that India is changing the way its renewable assets are owned. This also gives us a tremendous scaffolding to make sure that we are in it for the long run. Capacities are being enhanced through use of the latest technologies. So that is also happening. The productivity of solar is improving quite well, the productivity of wind is improving. Bioenergy is taking off, it's a nascent state, but it's taking off very well. Hydro, we had a wrong kind of ownership pattern on the hydro projects, and that is being corrected. And nuclear is purely in government hands and it's likely to stay that way. So we have all of these constructs in place to make sure that we can meet and exceed our targets.

👉🏾And there is no going back because these are long-term investments, which will continue to produce the desired returns because we are still working on a cost-plus basis so far as our energy industry is concerned. So that is a comprehensive way to look at how India is dealing with making this sustainable, making it look long term and actually making it happen.

👉🏾 The first thing that to note is that we came in with our environmental protection laws way back. They're on the statute book for decades and so that has been a very good trial run, if you like, for Indian industry to be sure that they get aware of what are the obligations they must meet to keep the rivers clean, to not have discharges which are toxic, to not contaminate soil, all of those regulations have been fed into the psyche of Indian industry over years and years, over decades of EPA laws. The enforcement of those laws has also improved significantly.

👉🏾 There's a whole lot of public process surrounding permissions, environmental permissions, so there is a whole gamut of regulations which you need to be in compliance with if you want to start a project which has the danger of either contaminating a river body or affecting a forest or doing anything that would violate environmental norms. So that is the first big stake that we put in the ground. Then we started tightening the incentive structure around renewables. So renewables, India is one of the few countries which has a separate ministry for renewable energy. It's a completely independent ministry, which is supporting all of these projects by financing, by good regulation, by making sure that costs get correctly calculated by making sure that the tariff is fair, by making sure that the grid will accept the power.

👉🏾 And while we are not fully there, there is a whole lot of regulatory support to make all of this happen. That is the way, and now we have the regulators of the listed environment, namely the Securities and Exchange Board of India, and the Reserve Bank of India and the IRDA, the insurance regulator, all getting into the act.

👉🏾: Okay. Lovely. So first of all, let me say that Indian industry was prepared, like in everything else, we had the trial run. So we had Business Responsibility Reporting, which is BR, which has been in place for the last seven years. So BR actually transitioned and moved into BRSR. Which is 151 different parameter-driven frameworks, which enables corporate India to actually measure what is happening in their environment. So everything has a measure, whether it is DEI, or it is your human rights practices. I’m taking the tougher things first, whether it is the way you can show that you are well governed, whether it is your environmental footprint, your carbon, your GHG gases.

👉🏾All of that will now be positively measured because what you don't measure can never be improved, and therefore this realisation is very much there. As soon as this framework became visible, and perhaps even before that, there were many people who actually converted this framework into a set of parameters and a set of algorithms, which will, in a digital manner, support the implementation by corporate India. So what has happened is that there are at least 10 different digital platforms available. One which we support strongly is what is called GovEVA, which is governance leading to economic value add, and that is a framework that now covers the entire spectrum of sustainability issues.

👉🏾 So that is the other enabling and useful thing that has been put into place in to support corporate India. Of course, initially, people saw it as an additional regulatory burden, but a lot of people had already issued what are called integrated reports. And there was this whole transition and this whole ambassadory happened over many years.

👉🏾 Personally, I was an ambassador for integrated reporting for the last many years. So wherever I could have an influence, I pursued companies to actually go out and put out their report on six capitals as opposed to just the financial capital. And that got people ready. And then when these regulations came about, people sought out digital platforms help from organisations, which were geared to make sure that this can happen. Today we can automate completely digitally, the production of the BRSR report. And very interestingly, what we have also done is made whole framework capable of being expressed in any global framework that a company needs to report on. So let's say an Indian company has a large European footprint, then we can convert the same data, which will produce the BRSR report into GRI-compliant reporting, and we can tweak it to meet any regulatory standard.

👉🏾Good news for the world is that the ISSB is working very hard, to actually bring about harmony, and India is a very strong supporter of ISSB. There is a committee formed by the Institute of Chartered Accountants of India on which I serve, which is actually actively supporting the creation of the global standard.

👉🏾 So from every pathway, the attempt is to make sure that we make it as easy and as empowering to Indian industry as we possibly can. That's the approach and attitude that people have taken in India.

👉🏾 You know, the first thousand listed companies by market cap, are the ones who are obligated to do this reporting. So they have all started dusting out their frameworks and formats and are making whatever attempts. Everybody's on a different path in the curve. Some people are already there. Many, about 65 companies have already done before the due date compliance with BRSR.

👉🏾 So you can imagine the enthusiasm BRSR has because it's pulled out of GRI. If you were to compare GRI and BRSR, you'll find tremendous overlap. And so people have taken this BRSR very positively. That is this voluntary compliance, which is getting engendered. What SEBI is also doing is it is working on what is called BRSR Lite. So there will be a lesser rigorous framework, not this 151 variables that I talked about, there will be far less variables for the small and medium enterprises. So that we can build in the scope three as well. So BRSR will address the needs of Scope three and of the MSME population in India.

👉🏾 So you can see that we are trying to cater to different sizes, different complexities, make sure that the framework will enable computation and bring out meaningful data that analysts and others can actually accept. And all of this is a like that India will be amongst the first countries to require mandatory reassurance of the BRSR.

👉🏾 Yeah. No let me share with you what's happening in one of the largest groups in the country. So they have taken exactly what you are talking about, the S part of the ESG and they're building a framework for the whole group, which will be rolled out for individual entities in the group to make sure that they will achieve best practice in the world.

👉🏾 They're not aiming to be best in India. They're aiming to be globally benchmarked against the best. So what are they wanting to benchmark against? They want to benchmark against the company which received the highest ranking in their particular industry, to which one of the group companies belongs, on the DJSI index.

👉🏾 So that's where the efforts are being made, through benchmarking, through double materiality, concept deployment, through rigorous frameworks of measurement, the DEI, the human rights, the workplace neutrality, the entire set of S issues, health, safety, all of that are being benchmarked to the best in the world. And this is being linked with the HR function so that the HR function supports all of this because the data resides largely in HRMIS systems. And therefore this integration is being attempted. So you can see that the attempt is to get to benchmark level as opposed to let's just make sure that this is compliant and you tick the box. That is a very interesting insight that I am seeing from the largest groups in the country.

👉🏾 Brilliant question. So let's take S, let's stay with S. How will I demonstrate that I've implemented S well? If I can be in the top five companies in every industry that I have a foothold in the five best places to work in India, or if I aspire to be the best place to work in the world, that is the price worth going after because that's going to attract the best in class employees to my table.

👉🏾 And that is the attempt that this particular group that I have in mind is wanting to achieve and many people are along the same path. Everybody wants to make sure that they have the best human resources that they can find and deploy and keep and harness to make sure that they feel comfortable, feel that they can be part of this whole missionary approach to making sure that you are doing things which are world class in every which way.

👉🏾 Way down. Absolutely. A brilliant question again. Let me put it this way. From the highest levels, I have heard conversations on what quantum of GDP can be enhanced simply by getting women into the workforce. Let's park that for a minute, let's look at the greatest, fastest-growing segment of the finance market. It is the MFs, which is the funding which happens to self-help groups, micro-finance it's called. And which is taken in by groups of women who cross-guarantee the repayment of this money. Now the company that I sit on the board of is the number one disperser of micro-finance, and you'll be very happy to know that our collection record on the day on which the collection is due is about 99.78%, and this is in rural India. So this is where we are beginning to reach out. See, India should not be viewed only in terms of statistics. A large part of the women in India are instinctively entrepreneurs, and they instinctively need flexibility in working hours and working time and working habits and all of that.

👉🏾 This is very important because even today, the woman is seen to be the protector and the curator of the home. Which is a role that has shifted from that part of the population in other parts of the world, it has not shifted out from India. And therefore the attempt that India is trying to make is to make this workplace neutrality a reality.

👉🏾So the S part of ESG in India will depend for its success to bring in the diversity and to bring in all the other factors to show that women power will be actually harnessed, which it must be. We need to be sensitive to these issues and our computation must change. We must look at all these women entrepreneurs.

👉🏾I went to a village and I was interacting with the self-help group and it's leader, and what was the work that they were doing? They were creating brooms with which we sweep homes, the part of India where they were operating in has a lot of dust flying around cause there's factories and there's cement, dust and whatever.

👉🏾 So they were making brooms, and this woman proudly tells me that she has become a lakhpathi, that means a person who owns more than 100,000 rupees. So proudly they said it. From entrepreneurship, that was their next surplus in that period that we were discussing. So this part of India is not well documented, is not in anybody's imagination, but this is a very important part of India.

👉🏾 I think it's the biggest myth that we need to blow on this podcast right now, right here, . It's amazing. You know If you put on the lens of sustainability, you can actually envision a far more profitable, far more scaled-up future. And I have seen it time and again. For example, the cost of renewable power, marginal cost is about a eighth of the cost of fossil fuel power. Nobody in their right minds would not want to see a future where all power is renewable if your cost is going to drop so dramatically, so how is it in anybody's conception a cost? It's actually a phenomenal reduction in cost.

👉🏾 Energy transition in India when it is fully complete, as I had described earlier, the cost of power will come crashing down. We will have amongst the lowest cost of power, competing with the places where everybody's moving because they want power at cheap price. That is the future we can look forward to. How can that be a costly future? Costs have to be democratised and they will be. That's only in this area. Look at EV, the cost of patrol versus the cost of maintaining a EV car, It's just on two different planets. Therefore for anybody to have this conception that being green or practising ESG is costly, is simply not knowing what they're saying and therefore we need to blow the myth.

👉🏾 So one be sincere, very important. No greenwashing should be permitted from the beginning,...

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Shownotes:

Everybody wants to talk about fintech - apparently it is the new normal. I recently learnt that a staggering 95% of the founders of the FinTech 50 list are male. Not difficult to do the math here - it means women founders make an abysmal 5%.

An International Monetary Fund Report from Dec 2022 - Digital Gender Gap, says that women represent less than 13 percent of leadership - both as founders and members of executive boards of fintech firms. Women’s representation in fintech is worse than traditional banking and technology companies.

And then there is the issue of gender inequality in fintech’s user base……… reports suggest that the needs of women customers is hugely underserved, the lost opportunity means 100s of billions of dollars in foregone revenue each year.

To discuss the above and a myriad of issues (related to gender equity) facing the fintech sector I spoke with the leadership team from Adenza, a global fintech company with presence in over 20 countries. My guests for this episode of the podcast were Karoline Raets, and Laurent Jacquemin. The timing was just right with IWD 2023 around the corner…….We spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Internal and external imperatives that are driving the industry to be more inclusive and representative

👉🏾 Adenza’s vision on gender diversity and equity. How is the vision aligned with Adenza’s purpose; launch of Adenza’s women’s resource group

👉🏾 Poor gender diversity in the fintech industry, challenges in being able to attract and retain female talent. Addressing the ‘war for talent’

👉🏾 Systemic gender biases in the workplace; representation statistics and ambition

👉🏾 Absence of role models, and the cascading impact on pipeline for managerial and leadership positions

👉🏾 The role of internal sponsors in supporting women to achieve their potential; Laurent’s experience as an executive sponsor

We also spoke about inclusive leadership, monitoring progress and both Karoline Raets and Laurent Jacquemin shared some great advise for women wishing to pursue a career in fintech.

My takeaway from the conversation - there is lots to be done but the industry can change the status quo with the right intent, and taking specific actions (linked to strategic long terms goals).

To learn more listen here 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

fintech #womeninleadership #genderequity #representationmatters #equityandinclusion #inclusivefintech

Shownotes

Memorable Passages from the Podcast

Karoline: Thank you, Sudha, it is great to be here.

Laurent: Hello Sudha yeah, I'm very excited about what we're going to do.

Karoline: I will start. So I am Karoline, I'm from Belgium origin, and I lived and worked in Belgium, France, and I'm now based in the UK. I've been working since I was 21, I won't say what age I am today. You can go and figure that out.

Karoline: But I've worked in various roles in sales, marketing, communications and then I ended up in the HR world in 2007. I must say that most of the time I have worked in international organisations, so I've been very exposed to different cultures, different ways of working. And it's been almost 25 years now that I've been working in the FinTech industry.

Karoline: I'm married to a jazz musician, so a totally different world, which is actually great. And I have two daughters, one is 16 and the other one is 13 and I'm the Chief People Officer at Adenza since 2020. .

Laurent: Sure. So my name is Laurent. I am French, as I think you would tell from the accent. I'm not going to tell you my age either, but I'll tell you the age of my children, and you will see that I'm a bit older than Karo, they're more in between 20 and 30 my children.

So I'm French, as I said, I'm sharing the life of a French ceramic artist, which is a bit different to what I do, which is a great too. We are the father and mother of three plus two, if you see what I mean, and we try and see them often to compensate for a bit of an empty nest these days.

Laurent: I'm in the FinTech space since the nineties, actually, did all the way up from a 30 ish staff french software company to about 50,000 people, a US giant FinTech before landing at Calypso, that was about 4.5 years ago. And loving it, to be honest with you. I look after the customer facing practices of Adenza, customer support, customer delivery, customer success, and cloud services. And like Karoline, I've been exposed to a great number of different cultures and nationalities throughout my career and I have to say I love it. .

Karoline: I can go first. Women first, right. Yeah. So I believe that Adenza's vision on gender diversity and equity is pretty simple.

Karoline: It's really about respecting each and every individual in the organisation for who they are and make sure that we allow each and everyone to just be themselves. I think that if you achieve that diversity and equity balance, generally people feel that they belong in the organisation. So this is something that we strive towards, is to make sure that people have this sense of belonging.

Karoline: So that's what I would say, is how I see the diversity and equity at Adenza.

Laurent: Yeah, I think we're very close on that Karoline actually, because I think that our vision is to be simply diverse and equitable, as simple as that. It is to make sure that there is no impediment to anybody's career due to gender, ethnicity, religion, whatever.

Laurent: We are a truly global business with presence in, I think more than 25 countries these days, on the five continents. We've got local employees in each and every of our offices, and given we are a software and services business, there is no genuine reason whatsoever for all of the roles to not be open to everybody, actually, irrespective of gender, ethnicity and everything, so I guess it's our vision.

Laurent: And to your question, Sudha as to whether it's a tick box exercise or not? We're not the kind of people who just tick boxes, I mean we don't know each other very well, but everybody in Adenza will tell you we're not looking to just tick boxes, we're really looking for action.

Laurent: Sure. Maybe I'll start on this one then. I think that the imperative is both internal and external, actually pretty simple. Internal as I said, because again, there is no reason why any kind of role in a business like Adenza should be restricted in access based on gender, on age, on ethnicity, on religion. To be honest with you, the only criteria that we tend to recognise in terms of selection criteria are skills and experience and ability to excel in the role, that's about it. So that's kind of the internal imperative, people are looking for that you said it Sudha, that's absolutely true. And externally, the point is that we see a real shift towards ESG, including for our customers who are being regulated on that topic or start to be regulated on that topic.

Laurent: And they start to raise expectation with company like us on those topics, which is why, together with the kind of internal push, we're looking at that more seriously these days.

Karoline: Well yeah, I totally aligned with what Laurent just said, and I think it's all about creating that environment where there's no judgment, where ideas are welcomed and listened to. It's being open-minded and having in mind that people have different perspectives.

Karoline: And so I think to be really inclusive, everyone in the organisation should keep that in mind on a daily basis as they work with others in the organisation. Because ultimately, if we all do that, it will drive into a higher engagement which usually, it drives that sense of belonging, which again ties it back to, being an inclusive environment.

Karoline: So it's a mindset. And I think that at Adenza we're in a place right now where people understand that and we continue to build on that to make sure that we continue to reinforce that awareness with our staff at all levels in your organisation.

Karoline: All right. I think I would like to start here, Laurent. So if we look at the gender split today, cuz I mean diversity and equity goes way beyond just men and women. But if we just take that gender split, male-female in the organisation at Adenza, today we've got 31%. Female, 69% male and if you look at the FinTech industry in general, as you mentioned, Sudha, it's highly underrepresented by women. It's a real male environment, if I may say. So in general, less than 30% are females in the FinTech industry.

Karoline: Now this can be due to various reasons, one is that there are less applicants in the FinTech industry as a starting point on the hiring side. But it is also due to a historic sort of more senior leadership teams that are male and if you look at the FinTech industry and the senior roles, they're 17% are filled by women.

So actually, if you look at Adenza, we're at 31% overall, and we have 27% of our women that are in senior leadership or management positions. So we're actually better than what the industry is doing. And if you take it a step further in the FinTech industry, and I looked at this survey a couple of days ago.

Karoline: The founders of the FinTech 50 listing are 95% male and 5% female. And another information that I found in one of the surveys was that most of the FinTech apps that you would find are used by men. So there really is a lower interest or maybe eagerness to work in this industry because it has been for a very, very long time managed by men.

So if I look now at Adenza and our leadership, so like I said, we've got two executives on our leadership team, so that represents 20%. So we're, again, slightly above the benchmark if you look at the FinTech and 27% female. So, my view is that going forward, I would really like to see that shift increase so that we could get to, let's say a 35%, 65%.

Karoline: And if we could achieve that by the end of the year, that would be great. But I also don't want to force that, because we want people, like Laurent said earlier, the people who join us and who work at Adenza, we want them to have the right skills, the right experience, the passion and drive. And if that is men or women, it doesn't really matter. But if we could get more women with those attributes, then we'd be very happy to take 'em on board.

Laurent: Yeah. So I mean, it's interesting to see that we've got those percentages added and that are a bit better than the industry and that's good, that's good to know. I don't think that we are going to be happy with that Karoline, are we? We want do better job then for sure.

Karoline: We always wanna do better.

Laurent: Exactly. And the reason why we decided to launch that and allocate kind of sponsors and really start to look at it very, very seriously is precisely because we want to beat the benchmark.

Laurent: We're not the kind of people who love to just be at the benchmark, so that being said, I do remember if we want to share some sort of an anecdote at Adenza. I did consider, I think it was like 24 months ago already, I did consider to make it mandatory to create short list of candidates that would've at least one female candidate in it.

Laurent: Started to work on that with the talent acquisition team and the net kind of result we got at the time was that we faced a difficulty, cause at best following that rule would make the time to create the short list longer, because of a lack of female applicants and sometimes actually we were not able in a reasonable period of time to find women applicants in those short lists.

Laurent: And we had to break our own rule a few times just for the sake of the business, cause we can't wait like years before we find someone. So, I think it tells a lot about the fact that indeed, that industry today does not have as many women who are applicants potentially to all the jobs that we've got to offer, and that tells a large part of the story, I guess.

Karoline: Okay. So I can start here. I wouldn't say apart from what Laurent just mentioned, us wanting to try to get like a short list of female candidate for each of our jobs, we haven't necessarily done like specific work or efforts to attract more women to the organisation.

Karoline: So our genuine approach is that we're open to all applicants. But what I can say is that, and what I've heard also from women at Adenza is that we're not afraid to hire a young mom who just had twins. We're not afraid to hire a single mom. We're totally open to hire people from various backgrounds religions, as long as, again, it ties back to them having the experience and the skills and the passion and the drive.

Karoline: But recently we have now constituted an internal employee group, ‘Women at Adenza’. And so one of the things that we will put on the table with that group, which constitutes over a hundred women willing to help us with moving this project forward, is to also get their input on, what should we be doing to attract more women to the organisation? What do they feel is important, what would make a difference or an impact? And I think it is more about, rather than a couple of heads at the top of the organisation trying to figure this out, is to get the bottom up. And also to rely on that internal network, to spread the word externally because all these women are also connected to other women. So this just opens up the network much, much broader.

Laurent: Yeah, I guess that when I think about that, it seems to me like we're trying to bridge the inflection point between not actively resisting in any shape or form to having women at Adenza to dealing with the passive biases. So since I joined the organisation, I don't recall having any difficulty to attract women to Adenza, i.e anytime my guys would've interviewed with candidates, with female candidates there is nothing in Adenza that would prevent those women to join Adenza. I've never heard about any kind of active bias of people going like, no, I'm not interested by that kind of person, that kind of gender, that kind of age and all that, I've never seen. Now it's great news, I guess, that we have no kind of active bias from that perspective.

Laurent: But the reality is that we've got passive biases. And the only example I would give going back to the anecdote I shared with you a bit earlier today, is that you could look at people accepting to have a shortlist, which is made of exclusively male candidates as a passive bias. And I guess that we're at that inflection point today where we go like, well, maybe we should not accept that and we should do something about that. And that's, I think, where we are at today.

Karoline: Yeah, I mean, they're definitely going to give their inputs. So we've had two or three meetings so far and there's plenty of ideas and anecdotes. But I think that at Adenza, we of course have like any organisation, our code of ethics, our internal policies. So what we want to do is make sure that we create that environment that fosters, a safe environment for people, where mental health is taken into account as well.

We ensure that we create that awareness and what we did in 2022 is we started to roll out webinars around emotional intelligence for managers, but also for employees. We were rolling out on March 14th which is going to be Women's Month at Adenza, we're doing a dedicated webinar towards unconscious bias. and we'll kick it off on the 14th of March. But again, this is something that we will be rolling out on a regular basis because we do have 2000 people in the organisation. So, for the word to spread you got to repeat and repeat. So I think it is about reiterating with our people and augmenting that sense of awareness.

Karoline: And then just being vigilant as well, that when we hear something or see something is, not to pretend it didn't happen or to think, oh, you know, it's okay, was this once it'll go away. Because it may be a pattern and you don't want to sit on that and do nothing. But the big piece in my view comes with creating that awareness so that people have it on their minds.

Laurent: Well, not much to add because that was a pretty comprehensive answer. No, I think again, that I've never since I joined the company seen any kind of active bias in any direction. So I don't know whether it happened or not, but I've never seen that. And I've met with a number of people that have been in a number of meetings, so that kind of has some value from that perspective.

Laurent: But really where we're today is to go one step further and start educating people and ourselves. Right? In terms of how do you reckon, how do you identify any kind of passive biases and how you deal with that? And while I'm pretty sure that I never saw any kind of active biases again, I couldn't be that certain that I never saw passive biases. So...

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It has not been long since the PR/Comms Industry started to be conscious about the impact of inherent racism, prejudice and discrimination on employees from black, and ethnic minority groups. Moving from talk to taking action for change has been painfully slow. It is important to acknowledge that organisations in the industry are at different stages of the journey. Some have been quicker to authentically address issues to reflect their values and also recognise it as a business resilience and sustainability challenge.

To get a sense of the work being done by agencies, I recently spoke with Ricky Forde, Senior Director, EMEA Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging (DEIB). Interestingly Ricky is also FTI’s first DEIB lead and has a track record as a culture change expert. Key topics covered in this podcast include:

👉🏾 His career graph and his role as DEIB lead at FTI Consulting

👉🏾 We discussed the apparent fatigue around diversity, equity & inclusion issues; the burning platform metaphor

👉🏾 What orgs can do and are doing to address the disproportionate impact of global events on disadvantaged and underrepresented groups

👉🏾 BAME, BME, PoC, Global Majority, DEI, DEIB, DIB - are acronyms critical building block or is it taking attention away from the bigger task at hand

👉🏾 Groupism, fair pay, and equitable hiring practices

👉🏾 Representation as a tick box; equity and belonging for culture change

👉🏾 Importance of cultural intelligence for designing relevant solutions

We also spoke about the challenges and opportunities for the industry in the short term and long term, biases, micro aggressions, the Elephant in the room, his reading list: ‘Allies’ (Darling Kindersley), ‘How not to be strong amongst; (Alex Scott) other things

To listen, head to the podcast

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36 %: No of women employees In the Indian tech sector (the biggest employer by far)

51%: Women entry level recruits 🤩🤩🤩

25%: Women in managerial positions 😕☹️ (how bad or unsupportive does the culture need to be to get educated women to leave)

1% : Women in the C-Suite 🤷🏾‍♀️🤷🏾‍♀️ (This cannot happen without entrenched and systemic biases)

The statistics are so predictable it is almost boring. We have seen similar statistics in other markets, markets that are supposed to have been advancing the cause of women for decades. The numbers are depressing and disappointing.

Considering that 50% of India’s population is below the age of 25, I invited @Aarushi Nair, an engineer and aspiring academic to hear her perspective. The perspective from a generation who have faced and are facing great uncertainty and isolation due to the pandemic. A generation who lost years of socialising, classroom learning, and opportunities. The inheritors of a world that is literally going up in flames or down the drain or seems bleaker - take your pick.

In the course of the freewheeling chat we spoke about her role as an Ambassador/Community Volunteer at AnitaB.org, her thoughts on the challenges facing women in tech; her aspirations; changing priorities; equity & inclusion; what climate change means to her, friends, peer groups etc.

We also spoke about optimism, about changing your mind, mental health and the one super power she would like to have to change the world (Twilight 🤔🤔)

Want to hear more, head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Shownotes

👉🏾 Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be on and yeah, let's have an amazing conversation.

👉🏾 So hello, my name is Aarushi Nair. I am 21 years old, I'm gonna turn 22 soon. I've only recently completed my bachelor's in technology and I majored in computer science engineering. I completed it in June, 2022. I feel like most of my character development has only happened in the last four years, honestly, only since college. My personal journey as such, I moved a lot as a child, we moved a lot. We moved from a city called Mumbai to Gurgaon. And we moved back and then moved back again.

👉🏾 So I think that helped me become more adaptable to different situations and people and cultures. But it wasn't anything crazy or something that I would say was significant to my journey. I think in the last four years, and I'm talking about when my college started and when the pandemic hit, I think these are the situations that really helped me grow.

👉🏾 One of them being that when I joined college. Before that I was in a very protected golden bubble sort of environment. I like to think that I come from a very privileged background where I've never had to struggle for anything as such. I mean, financially or emotionally. I've been blessed with a great family and only in college did I meet people from different backgrounds in different situations where they grew up and listening to their stories made me realise that what I had was truly a privilege. And I realised that I was a lot more grateful and a lot more aware about the things that I was seeing and making sure that I was a lot sensitive to people around me. So that's what college taught me.

👉🏾 And during the second wave of Covid, September, 2020 my father and my sister got dengue in the middle of the second wave of Covid, and that really hit me. It was a very scary time for our family. And I really grew, I think, as a sister and a daughter at the time. I realised the importance of my family, and I realised that it was harder to be strong for someone else than to just be strong for yourself and how much effort that takes. And again I was just a lot more grateful. Career-wise I feel like I've had a change last year when I did my first internship, Feb 2022.

👉🏾 All my life I've thought that in computer science I could always follow the path of coding and I was doing very well in class in coding, Java made sense to me. But it was only after I did an internship in web development where I realised that I can't be coding my entire life. And it was not something that gave me purpose. And so it was after my internship that I realised that I wanted to do something else in computer science and not a programming desk job anymore. So I'd say these three things are what kind of defined my journey.

👉🏾 So like I said, since I was brought up in a very privileged household, things like equality and opportunity for everyone and people being treated the same were always something that was a given. It wasn't something that was new or unconventional. But it was only when I met people in my field and in my university, I realised that it was not the same for everyone and that people had to really work for where they were and really had to fight for basic rights and basic opportunities.

👉🏾 So that was when I realised that I want to advocate for this because to me it makes sense. It is what the norm should be and that's when I found anitab.org. It's the largest community for women in STEM, and their message is that they want to build a space where the people who work in technology mirror the society for which they work for. And that makes sense that if you're going to be providing solutions and technology, devices, this and that for a society where you have women, or you have people from different backgrounds, even the people that work in those fields should also have the same kind of numbers, that's what they're trying to say.

👉🏾 And so when I found the community anitab.org, I decided to, sort of become really active in that community. I met a lot of students there, I started to hear their story.

👉🏾And then people at anitab.org reached out to me and they said, we'd love for you to be an ambassador, and I also wanted to be a volunteer because I wanted to help organise events, be it online or virtual. And just last year, in October, I organised my very first event in college where we had a female speaker, come from anitab.org and speak to a few students and she shared her journey and what she does in the field, she works as a data scientist in the field. And I think it was one of the first times that I saw a female speaker at one of my technical events on the panel in my college. So it was a definitely quite memorable and very different from my juniors.

👉🏾 So yeah that's what we do at anitab.org. We help people, we connect them to different people in the technology field. And where it comes to advocating for people, for women in tech, it honestly seems like it should be the norm, you know it shouldn't be something that's unconventional. And as long as we encourage women to choose STEM careers at a young age, opportunity will always be made once we have more people there.

👉🏾 So I think maybe because I'm looking at it a very basic level, at a very introductory level, I think going ahead it depends person to person. Of course, some people don't see a career for them in this field. And some people I'd say that they might not want to grow sometimes because of their social constructs and they're not as ambitious as they need to be, as I'd like them to be at least. Because sometimes I don't know, I think maybe they hold themselves back because this is such a male-dominated field. So maybe because of certain biases, they don't want to go ahead or they're not given the opportunity to do so.

👉🏾 So maybe because it's so hard to go and rise up that some people don't pursue it. Again, it depends person to person, but maybe that could be one of the many reasons why we don't have a lot of women at least rising above in these fields in terms of position. And when it comes to people staying long in this field I wouldn't know.

👉🏾 I don't know how to actually answer that or why they don't stay as long because the people I've met from this field have been there for like years and they're doing well. But why they wouldn't stay long, I think the same reason, I think because they think that this is not a place for them, they won't really grow because you know the numbers are against them, there's such a big gender gap that's already existing. It's too much work, it's too much commitment. So, maybe they wouldn't want to continue working in a space like that. That could really, discourage them.

👉🏾 About myths. Yeah, it was definitely not an easy decision, because till last year before I finished my last semester, I wanted to continue programming and maybe create a new software and work at different companies. But it was after that I started programming and coding at a health tech startup called My Healthcare, they were wonderful people and lovely projects. But it was after I actually coded for about four to five months that I realised that was not something that I wanted to do in terms of a career. I didn't want to sit and just code for a career. And so I realised maybe I want to do something else with my degree. And growing up I've always realised that I have, I don't want to say this myself, but I'd say people have told me I have a knack for teaching and that if I understand the concept I can teach it well. And so I thought I should go ahead and pursue that.

👉🏾 So I wanted to go ahead and get a master's, hopefully from the the US or Canada or something like that, but I'm not sure yet because we have a lot of complications in my application process so far, but I'd like to get a master's and then hopefully a PhD.

👉🏾 So I want to be a professor in a college because I know how important my teachers were for me in choosing this career and choosing this field. And I know if we have good teachers, we'll have fantastic students then. Because the teachers do truly decide the student's future and how successful they will be and I know that my teacher taught the subject of programming to me so well that now it's my career. And so, I hope to also make a difference to anyone's life, any student's life. So that's what I'd like to be doing, I'd like to teach for now. That's the plan.

👉🏾 Again, I think maybe I can change since I'm going to go to be doing academics in this industry, maybe it'll go from, computer science to philosophy about why tech should be used. There's something called techno ethics, I could be doing something like that where it's ethics and technology. But I think I'll still always be doing something within the digital space because it's so popular and it's something that's fundamental to our lives now. And luckily it's something that I understand and that makes sense to me and I'm good at it. So I don't see a future where I would not somewhere be related to this field. But maybe my role would change, maybe I wouldn't just be a professor, maybe I would be an activist or something like that, but I'm not sure yet. For now I think I will still continue pursuing this field.

👉🏾And honestly, these myths and gender gaps, I don't think they scare me or they take me away from these opportunities. I think they just make me more excited to bring in change and I do want to see the numbers change and things change. More determined than before. Yes.

👉🏾 I think for, again, I'm speaking from the experiences that I've had and the peers that I've seen, I don't think postgrad is mandatory today, at least nowadays it's definitely an upper hand to have, but I know people that are getting fantastic offers post their bachelor's and postgrad is almost an optional thing that you can do if the company sends them or something like that.

👉🏾 It's not a mandatory thing to get nowadays, some people can go from a B Tech directly to a PhD, but that's a whole other conversation. Post-grad is now just a plus one, it's a plus one to have, it's not compulsory. And when it comes to marriage, I feel like women, at least in my circle nowadays, are not taking marriage so seriously, it's not something that they need to be looking forward to. Marriage is, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. I think women are more inclined to being more independent and working towards their own careers, at least right now. And I think it's really sad and fortunate that maybe women in your days do not have the opportunity or the construct to do so, but I'm glad that's changing. And marriage is honestly again, optional, it's not compulsory anymore that's how I'll say this.

👉🏾 I think maybe back then there weren't many opportunities for women to be earning and supporting themselves and their families. Since now things have changed and there are so many other opportunities for women to stand on their own two feet. Then marriage is not always the first thing that they look at. Marriage is something you do if you want to do. It's not that you have to go ahead and get married, so I'd say that's changed.

👉🏾 I think climate change and net zero and diversity and inclusion, they're obviously very important and fundamental to our lives. And when it comes to climate change, I think something that's inevitable, something that we definitely need to be addressing. Diversity and inclusion, I think given my field and given the role that I do play, professionally, is always part of conversation amongst my peers. And as we're constantly talking about what needs to be done, not just in my field, but in different fields in terms of access to education. I think we're also still working on how more women can be more aware about are the different opportunities presented to them.

👉🏾 But when it comes to climate change and net zero I'm a little embarrassed to say, but I don't think I've had too many conversations about it at least. I do things on more of a personal level, like I'll use more green methods and things like that. Whatever we were taught in school at a very young age, like, recycling and, green waste handling this and that.

👉🏾 But I don't think I've been having any conversations, but I know a lot of young people who are very passionate about it. And it is definitely a very important conversation and is a matter of urgency. So I think that's what I'll change this year, maybe I'll be having a lot more conversations about climate change, net zero that's what I'll be doing.

👉🏾It's definitely impacted me a lot. I think during the pandemic there was definitely a period of uncertainty and I was very loud. I think I've definitely grown a sense of apathy, which I did not have before, but I definitely, I felt like I grew a bit of apathy towards my future and my plans during Covid, it's because everything just seems so unsure and that I wasn't even sure if I wanted to pursue the things that I wanted to pursue. And I think my enthusiasm was cut down a little bit for sure. The pandemic was not a good phase for my life and a lot of people's lives, even career wise speaking, I was supposed to be pursuing a lot of different things that could not happen due to the pandemic, so that definitely affected me mentally.

👉🏾 What the pandemic also did for me is that I became a lot more aware of my mental health and the mental health of people around me. So I think that was one good thing that I think the pandemic did for me. I understood the importance of my family, my friends and how I realised that it was really just your health that matters the most in these lives, you know because you get so caught up that you don't realise that I should probably be more aware of the people around me, just be thankful for them. So the pandemic definitely, it was a period of uncertainty and I definitely think that I am a little less optimistic about the future than I was before, but it's inculcated a sense of gratefulness in my mind for sure. So bit of both, I'd say. I'm not too optimistic about the future, but I think I'll get there soon.

👉🏾Yeah, definitely. I think it gave us a new perspective altogether. Like you're constantly caught up in what my dad likes to call a rat race, and so that gave us a pause and gave us the time for reflection. I mean, I'd say ironically I'm also like thankful for the pandemic as well, that, it gave me that, it gave me that chance to just pause and look around.

👉🏾 But at the same time, again, there were lot of uncertainties and I was very unsure and constantly anxious about different things, be it my college, be it my career, this and that. So a bit of both. I'd say.

👉🏾 Hmm. Recently? So, I think growing up I valued the number of friends I had, a lot. I wanted to always have a big circle of friends because I was of the opinion that the number of people that liked me and that I could talk to that would kind of give a sense of validation. And that would mean that I'm a good person and that's a good thing to do. And so growing up I always had a big circle. Every time I shifted to a different city, I used to have a huge number of friends. Even when I started college, I started with a group of like 10, 12 people. And I always thought that that meant that I was validated, that I was liked.

👉🏾But it was only, I think after college ended, and I think after the pandemic, was when I realised that my validation shouldn't be based on the number of friends I have. And that quality does matter over the quantity. And so now I have two good friends and I'm a lot more happier. I feel like at peace with certain things, I don't have to constantly be pleasing other people.

👉🏾 So that's what I've changed, that's what I've learned about this year, is that as long as you have people that care for you and that you care for, it doesn't matter if there are five, six people, as long as you have one or two friends, that's more than enough. And so even though this might not sound like such a great realisation, it was actually a very big moment for me. I learned a lot about myself and gave up a lot of my insecurities during this time.

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India was ranked 121 out of 163 countries in the 2022 Global Index of SDGs. It has also been identified as a global hotspot by the IPCC in terms of geographical and socio-economic vulnerabilities. In 2023 India is expected to become the most populous country in the world. As a rapidly growing economy with decades of infrastructure growth ahead of it, India’s energy demand and emissions are projected to double if not triple by 2050. Then there is the all important commitment the country has made to reaching Net Zero by 2070 (It is not as bad as it looks). Achievable, not achievable - whatever the verdict, India’s impact on the world’s ability to meet the SDGs or NetZero is undeniable.

To discuss the role of the private sector in helping countries achieve the SDGs I recently spoke with Anirban Ghosh, Head for Centre of Sustainability at Mahindra University and previous Chief Sustainability Officer at the Mahindra group. In this freewheeling conversation we spoke about organisational purpose, stakeholder priorities 👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 The key drivers for the private sector to start planning for, embedding sustainability and adopting ESG reporting?

👉🏾 The priorities for the Mahindra group on Sustainability and ESG reporting

👉🏾 The World Bank’s Carbon Pricing Leadership Coalition and its ambition

👉🏾 The challenges to India achieving Net Zero by 2070 considering it is one of the largest emitters, its dependance on coal and lack of funding

👉🏾 The role of the private sector in achieving the 👆🏾👆🏾and Mahindra group’s strategy on Net Zero

👉🏾 Green and sustainable growth - can this be a reality for a developing country like India

👉🏾 Just Transition - can this be a reality? How can we ensure people on the margins are not left behind

👉🏾 Corporate Greenwashing - and how big a concern it should be. According to Anirban the private sector has just about started on it - there is worse to come

We also spoke about what he likes about his job and what keeps him awake at night.

If you want to know more, head to the episode 👇🏾👇🏾

Memorable passages from the podcast

👉🏾 Good afternoon to you.

👉🏾 Currently I'm the Head for Center for Sustainability at the Mahindra University. Till recently I was the Chief Sustainability Officer of the group. Did that job since about 2014. And now we are looking at leveraging the centre to make a greater impact on the sustainability ecosystem. Three things that influenced my career. I think there's only one, which is chance. There are these lovely lines from a song by John Lennon which says "life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans". And it just seems to happen every once in a while.

👉🏾 The sustainability job is very interesting. You can kind of create your day for yourself. There are two or three broad things that one needs to do. Of course, I must also look at it from the lens of what it was a few years ago, to what it is now.

👉🏾 A few years ago, a lot of the time was to take your colleagues along on the journey. Help them understand how they could leverage sustainability to do their own work better. And as a result, get all the benefits that a organisation could get by practicing sustainability. That was probably the biggest thing that one had to do, and figure out ways of doing it, so that it seamlessly became part of the organisation.

👉🏾 To be able to do that, one had to figure out or keep track of what was expected of organisations in the sustainability space. Because in regular business the expectations are very simple and clear. In sustainability, I think every organisation has spent a lot of time trying to figure out, so what is it that I'm supposed to do, and what makes sense for me and what doesn't make sense for me. So that's another important part of the role.

👉🏾 A third thing that the chief sustainability officer must do is continuously build competence within the organisation. Because if you have to, let's say, do energy efficiency or transition to renewable energy or crack circular economy, there are new tricks that you have to teach your colleagues. Which means that there has to be a very strong capacity building program to expose colleagues to new concepts, new learning and new technologies, which they can then adopt in the work that they do.

👉🏾 And while doing all this, it's important to build culture within the organisation, so that sustainability becomes a regular part of everyone's life. Awareness increases. So we have a program called ‘Make sustainability personal’, through which we do lots of interventions across the year, and typically engage upwards of 10,000 people. 10,000 colleagues within the group in some activity or the other.

👉🏾 In this function, the extent of external engagement is very high. The primary purpose of external engagement for me was to learn, to get a sense of what needs to be done, what are the new things that are happening, who's doing it well, who can be a partner and so on.

👉🏾 Over time as the work has evolved, there is an element of sharing your story and building your brand. But that's evolving now and it's probably going to be a big thing going forward.

👉🏾 Businesses have always had to have purpose. The purpose may have evolved. Milton Friedman said this a long time ago, when financial security, economic well-being were things that the majority of the population was searching for. And business was a way of creating value. In most parts of the world we've come along way. And in the course of our journey as economic wellbeing has improved or increased, we have created society in a way in which there are many who are underprivileged and many who are super privileged. This is probably why we are talking about stakeholder wellbeing more than shareholder wellbeing.

👉🏾 And asking about the role of an organisation in ensuring stakeholder wellbeing. We're also asking the question because in the pursuit of economic wellbeing, we have actually led to the degradation of environmental wellbeing, shall we say, or the degradation of natural resources. In a sense we were maximising the P & L and making a mess of the balance sheet. The assets that we use, I mean, clean air, water, soil, minerals. I don't think they're in any better shape today than they were 200 years ago.

👉🏾 And there are second order, third order impacts of let's say polluted air. Things which we are only recognising today cause it has gone out of hand. Another reason why it's important to understand societal wellbeing in a holistic way. We've captured all of it in the sustainable development books.

👉🏾 And for an organisation to be seen as a responsible organisation, I think the things that it has to do and the scale that it has to do it in, has evolved a lot. And hence the conversation on purpose, with the implicit understanding that purpose goes beyond financial wellbeing and goes towards addressing the health of society and the health of the planet in a much broader way.

👉🏾 For a business, the key reason is business resilience. Whatever we've done, let's say our organisation is 75 years old, whatever has helped us, in this journey of 75 years, we will need to do a few other things or a few things differently if we want to be around for the next 75.

👉🏾 So what are these other things really? And the conversation is very clear, you cannot do business by polluting the environment, you cannot do business by having a negative effect on the natural sources, mineral resources and so on. Also, I mean there will be pressures on minerals not being available in their virgin form. Things that we didn't have to deal with so far.

👉🏾 We know that there is this big problem of carbon dioxide in the air leading to global warming and that leading to these weather events and many other dystopian situations that we are facing. And that we cannot allow this to get out of hand. I don't know if you've heard the number, I read it in an article, which is quite old now, but the numbers stayed with me. That 71% of all the emissions in the world are caused by a hundred corporations, which essentially means that if we have to solve the emission problem, we've got to get the corporations to do something.

👉🏾 And most of these corporations are in the power sector because 74% of all emissions happen because of the generation of, consumption of energy. So suppose we don't solve this problem, when suddenly there will be all sorts of regulations from the government, there will be mandates to do, things which are not happening as of now. Because there is still hope that we will all take action and we will all do the right thing and cut emissions. We're miserably failing because every year emissions are increasing. So when things get out of hand, there will suddenly be all sorts of regulations and mandates. If you take action today and you make remarkable progress in your business, when the mandates and regulations come, you will be far better prepared than the ones who have not take action.

👉🏾 It doesn't necessarily mean that you will be an island of calm when the world is going crazy from a weather perspective. That is not possible, but at least you'll not be buffeted by regulations and merits as much as those who would've not made the effort. So, whichever way you look at, whether it is about reducing cost, identifying new business opportunities, being ready for future regulations and mandates. Being able to cater to the new needs of consumers, which are evolving category by category today. Whichever way you look at it, sustainability is about business resilience and about making sure that the business continues to do well. And in the process making a very positive contribution to the environment, the planet, the society and so on.

👉🏾 You know, mother of all frameworks is a GRI framework. It has gradually evolved, it went from guidelines to standards and so on. But it continues to be the mother of all frameworks. All other frameworks, including the new ones that are getting made, are variants of GRI in some form or the other.

👉🏾 In the Mahindra group, there are a number of platforms, we disclose sustainability information, I think at last count we were addressing upwards of 1500 questions. And the funny thing is the same question gets asked in a slightly different way. So I can't even say that, okay, there are 300 common questions or something. But the way we looked at reporting, we've always looked at reporting like that is, it's a expression of stakeholders on what they want the organisation to do.

👉🏾 Now some businesses will have a few things which are more important, a few which are less important for their business, for their business resilience and for their impact on society and climate. And like you were saying, the prioritisation comes from - the end goal is I will do business in a way in which my business continues to be resilient and does have a negative, hopefully have a positive impact on environment and society. Our definition for sustainability has been to build enduring business while rejuvenating the environment and enabling stakeholders to rise. So we look at all disclosure and reporting questions as things to do, to operationalise this definition. Yes, there are too many questions to answer, but today the sectoral questions are evolving. As long as you have the goal in mind, you don't have to be buffeted by millions of frameworks.

👉🏾 Okay. So all of us have to reduce emission. Not everybody is going to do it voluntarily. And beyond the point, it'll take a bit of a push to get the sort of reductions that we need to get. Carbon price is a tool that can be used to shape behaviour, to shape adoption of technologies towards things which are cleaner, greener, and good for the planet.

👉🏾 So actually, it can come in multiple different forms. So every time there's a new technology, a good technology, like say electric vehicles. We tell the government, oh, you must give us some benefits for this and you must cut some taxes. So that the technology, which as of now is economically not as viable as existing technology, becomes attractive to the people who buy it. It is a form of a carbon price.

👉🏾 What are you doing? You are reducing the barrier for adoption of a clean technology. You could have also said, okay, I will put a greater tax on fossil fuels, serves the same purpose. So it comes in very many different forms and the primary purpose of carbon price is to increase the adoption of clean technologies and give us, give businesses and people a chance to switch faster than we would ordinarily do. New technologies have been evolving all the time, nobody puts incentives to accelerate the adoption of new technology. But in this case carbon price is a tool and it is being discussed because we have a time limit. We've got to keep temperature rise below 1.5, we have to do it by a certain date, and if you let new technologies get adopted in the regular pace, that will not happen.

👉🏾 Actually the challenges don't lie in the use of coal and things like that.

👉🏾 The challenges lie in the availability of alternatives. Let's look at it from an energy security lens. If we reach a stage where we can use renewable energy, nuclear power hydro power, and all of this to meet our energy needs, why would we even want to use coal?

👉🏾 So if you are to shift the conversation from why are we using coal or when are we gonna stop using coal, to how do we increase the availability of alternatives? That can take us away from coal and fossil fuel, it'll be a constructive conversation, we'd all enjoy being part of the journey. And similarly, how do we ensure that we move from fossil fuel powered devices, vehicles, and other things too clean energy powered devices. So that actually is the real journey that we're on. Along the way we'll get rid of coal, we'll get rid of fossil fuel and so on.

👉🏾 Today, you don't have a choice. I mean, this is how we've evolved as a society, when fossil fuels got discovered we were delighted, when thermal power happened we were delighted. When plastics happened it solved many of our problems. But now we are seeking alternative solutions to all of this. So we'll get rid of it only when we have an alternative solution.

Massive. So this will happen only through business, because one of the primary driver is new technologies. So where are the new technologies going to come from? Somebody has to make it marketable, commercialise it.

👉🏾 Even if the development were to happen in some government lab or research institution, it has to end up getting commercialised. Therefore, businesses play a critical. And every single solution that we talk of, is it LED lamps or BLDC fans or inverter air conditioners, electric vehicles, just name it, any one of them. You will need a business that'll have to commercialise the product, of the service.

👉🏾 In the group, we've committed to being net zero on Scope one and Scope two by 2040. We will get there. When we made the commitment, we knew we will get there and we are making good progress to get there. The challenge is scope three, which is the emissions from say, a vehicle in use or the emitted carbon from the material that we buy, because those are not things we can immediately solve ourselves.

👉🏾 Even if we go a hundred percent electric, we're dependent on the grid becoming a hundred percent renewable. So that's where all of us will have to come together. I think the conversation on Scope 3 has started. People have understood that it is really a very big problem and we are able to get there because we've almost tackled Scope 1 and Scope 2. People are actually comfortable that this can be addressed, but Scope 3 is another animal all together.

👉🏾 It is not as bleak. There will be issues in just transition. If nothing else, say, let's assume for a while that use of thermal power keeps reducing, which means we need less coal. There are people who are mining the coal, what will happen to their livelihood. It is easy to say that, okay, there will be an alternative, something else will come by, but there will be some effort required to make sure that we take people along from different areas of society.

👉🏾 Actually, the taxis you saw are, after one round of culling. There was a rule that said 15 year old taxis have to go. So you probably never saw a old premier taxi anymore. Because they're all gone. Now you've got a second round of culling that has become possible. Part of the reason why the taxis are the way they are is because of how their industry's shaped up with app based cabs and for radio based cabs and regular cabs and how they've chosen to price each other, each product and so on.

👉🏾 So that is not in the ambit of our conversation, so we won't get there. But I share your angst in terms of terrible cabs that we get to sit in. Couple of days ago I sat in a clean cab and it was clean enough for me to tell the driver, to ask him, have you just done up your taxi? It just looks remarkably clean.

👉🏾 So, back in the day when taxis and taxi drivers were often the hero of Hindi films, or at least a very important part of Hindi films, taxis actually used to be done up very nicely.

👉🏾 Yeah. Even the autos. I mean, you could step into an auto, there'd be music playing. The fellow would have decorated the vehicle in some very nice way.

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According to a report from last year by a leading consulting firm - compared with the other developed countries, the most disadvantaged in the UK are less likely to climb the income ladder and economically advantaged tend to stay at the top. No surprise there…

It is no secret that, the on going impact of the pandemic, cost of living crisis, economic recession and global uncertainty has pushed more households and therefore young people into poverty. For young people from underprivileged backgrounds this is going to deeply impact their ability to bridge the attainment gap between them and their better off peers. Young people without access to resources, mentoring and networks required to progress will struggle to reach their full potential. In 2023, instead of disappearing, the barriers to achieving upward social mobility are getting more and more entrenched in our society…..No surprise there either……

To understand more about social mobility, imperatives and impact I spoke with Tokunbo Ajasa Oluwa, CEO of Career Ready, a passionate advocate for young people and social mobility. We spoke about the findings of the last State of National Report by the Social Mobility Commission and discussed why as a developed country we have been unable to break the cycle of intergenerational poverty?

👉🏾 We spoke about the role of education and access to higher education in enabling transformation

👉🏾 The need for a collaborative approach between governments and the private sector

👉🏾 The Sutton Trust research on the impact of accents on social mobility finds pervasive accent bias. The research highlights the clear link between accents, socioeconomic background and social mobility

👉🏾 We also discussed the fact that social mobility has not been on any recent party election manifesto, the effectiveness of the APPG on social mobility. And the possibility of change without political will

👉🏾 Measuring progress - via long term impact

👉🏾 The people who inspired him - his mother and Dame Anita Roddick

And if you would like to know about the super power he would choose, head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Memorable Passages from the podcast

👉🏾 Pleasure to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

👉🏾 So my name's Tokunbo Ajasa-Oluwa. I'm Chief Executive of Career Ready, a social mobility charity that works across the UK. My background, I suppose I've worked in the third sector and the private sector, kind of jumped from one to the other over the years. Well, what's been the golden thread throughout my career is working with young people, particularly in the focus of youth empowerment and helping young people to realise their potential.

👉🏾 But before doing any of that type of work, I trained as a journalist and I worked in the media industry for about a decade or so, before making that shift into leadership working in the third sector and young people.

👉🏾 So Career ready, essentially, we're a charity that believes talent doesn't have a particular postcode. So for us, we consciously focus on working in areas of the UK that have a higher level of deprivation. And what we do is we work in partnerships with schools and colleges in that region, to identify young people that are in need of our support to help them realise their potential when it comes to career choices.

👉🏾 So how we do that practically is through three things. We provide each young person with a mentor. We provide them access to masterclass workshops that are delivered by volunteers from our employer partners, and we offer them a paid internship at one of our employer partners during the summer holidays. And those three things together help the young people make informed choices about their futures, it exposes them to new possibilities that they didn't believe were available to young people with their background. It helps them to increase their self-esteem and importantly it helps them to grow their social captial.

👉🏾 Okay. I think the part that I love is when I get the opportunity to go out on the road and see our program in action. So whether that's visiting a young person when they're on their internship, at the end of their internship, when they're doing their presentation and their level of growth in confidence and self-esteem that you see in that young person. Or when I get a text or a message, an email that one of our young people have now secured employment with one of our partners, those bits are the best.

👉🏾 Being able to see, go out on the road, whether it's in Belfast. Edinburgh, Manchester, wherever it is across the UK, being able to see the impact of our program, that for me is definitely one of the highlights.

👉🏾 One of the more challenging sides is as a leader having to make tough decisions. And the reality is we are a medium-sized charity. And as much as we'd love to support all the young people that need our help, we have to make choices and one of the tough parts about my job that I don't like, is where we have to kind of identify what the size of our lifeboat is. And there are people that need our program, but due to our circumstances, we don't have the capacity to facilitate their need alongside those that would prioritise. So that's probably the bit of my job that I don't enjoy the most.

👉🏾 Very different indeed. I literally just came back from visiting my team in the North of England. And you'll be aware about the narrative around the levelling up agenda. Which very much feels like a narrative rather than a reality. And I think that the reality is that there are multiple components that relate to that intergenerational poverty reality that we're facing in the UK. And I think one of the key points is, we need a more unified approach to those social challenges. We can't continue this vein of working in silo where you're talking about housing, you're talking about mental health, you're talking about, parenting challenges, all of those kind of social factors, intertwined, relate to where we are as a country. And I think a prime example of that, is for us as a organisation, we can only deliver our program in viable circumstances. And the reason why I stress that is because a region like Cornwall in the southwest of the country, is in desperate need of an offering like ours.

👉🏾 However, we're not able to provide a viable model because we don't have the business community in that region to enable the volume of internships that we'll need to offer. So you've got a clear need, but you don't have the united agencies working together to respond to that. So I think we need to definitely think about joined up approach to solutions rather than a budget sitting over there and a budget sitting over there and not realising the connectivity.

👉🏾 I think another prime example of what I'm talking about is we recently had the initiative tackling youth unemployment called Kickstarter scheme. Significant amount of resource went into Kickstarter scheme. However, it was a standalone entity, so it was about identifying young adults who are unemployed at the moment and getting them into employment for a period of six months. But once that concluded It just dropped off. So you're potentially dropping those young people back into the position where you found them. For me, a logical notion would've been connecting Kickstarter to our apprenticeship objectives and seeing that as almost like an introduction to an apprenticeship scheme. And that way you don't have that volatile narrative around a key social issue, which is unemployment.

👉🏾 We've been here before though. This is the challenge, and there was a totally different government, I think 2008, 2009, last recession, we had something called the Future Jobs Fund. Literally replica kind of model. But again, it stood in isolation. So the frustration I suppose is, when are we gonna learn from our own history and enhance those propositions, which as an entity, the objective is brilliant. It's about the sustainability and how do you then make it long term viable to see the return on that investment.

👉🏾Well, I think we're in a different time to say when we had that kind of boom in migration. So for those of us that have our first generation, British African or British Asian, it's a really different time to when our parents were first arriving on these shores.

👉🏾 So first and foremost, education is key. It's critical that as a principle doesn't go out of date and doesn't shift. But the circumstances, of what is required to your point around the cost. I think it's about ensuring that young people are making informed decisions. It's very rare for young people coming from the backgrounds that we work with, that have the luxury to go to university just for the experience.

👉🏾 Those days have come and gone, right? It really does have to service what you're trying to do with your life moving forward. So the informed decision is there are certain traditional industries and sectors where, the university education is still critical, right? But that's not necessarily the narrative for all industries.

👉🏾 So this is why, for us, it's really important that young people get that exposure to what is available and then making informed choices about how that can support them. So if I had my time now all over again, rather than going to university and studying journalism, I probably would've gone onto an apprenticeship degree or a degree apprenticeship, right?

👉🏾 Where you are getting the best of both worlds. You get that qualification whilst learning on the job, whilst being paid, rather than how long it took me to pay off my student loan. And that was nowhere near the cost of what the student loan is now. So I think, it's that point and I think the fact is we cannot underestimate the position of poverty within society and how that impacts people's decisions.

👉🏾 Yeah. I think in that point private sector definitely have a role to play. But I think like a cocktail or a salad, it requires a number of agents coming together and seeing the kind of sum of its parts and seeing the benefits to all entities.

👉🏾 So if you're thinking about it from a business perspective, when it comes to diversifying workforces, there's a plethora of research out there that reinforces the profitability and the business sense of diversifying your workforce. So from a socioeconomic kind of point of view, I don't need to kind of beat that drum. But at the same time, how that supports businesses alongside society is that you are removing a cost from society. That is a young person on unemployment benefits, and empowering them to become a positive asset where they're feeding into the economy through their disposable income and the businesses accessing talent that they wouldn't normally get access to.

👉🏾 So I don't necessarily think there is a hierarchy of who should be more responsible. I think again, it's about that collaborative approach of understanding that each entity has a benefit of us finding a long term viable solution to this. So I've seen some great examples of employers evolving the way they work and making sure that they can tackle social mobility. Some are further along that journey than others, and they are like the trailblazers and providing those examples of best practice.

👉🏾 And that's across industry, but you are right. I definitely agree that it's a requirement that business needs to look at. And I think a great example of that collaborative approach, I'm not sure if you're aware of something in Scotland called The Young Person's Guarantee, which literally has that, each of those stakeholders coming together, unified approach to a long term solution.

👉🏾 I mean there was a few recommendations within the report, which I think are kind of sensible and practical steps. I do think it is about ensuring that diversity from a leadership lens. So the fact of the matter is we need more diversity of experience, lived experience, and that will be reflected in people's accents as well.

👉🏾 So I think if you were to kind of focus on any particular aspect where we need to really drive that development, it's in leadership. It's in senior management roles and setting ourselves some specific targets around what that looks like in regards to diversity of lived experience. Because I think in certain industries it's very challenging, if you're thinking about the kind of banking and law for example or insurance - these are some of the more traditional industries which have got further to go compared to say, the creative industries or digital industry. So for me, I think it is about utilising the recommendations within the report, but if there was anywhere that I would hone in on that and really hold employers to task, it's around that senior leadership piece.

👉🏾 Yeah, I think pre-pandemic, the profile of young people we work with. I think some of the most impressive qualities about them, is they are some of the most tenacious and resilient individuals of their generation. Just based on their lived experience and that was pre-pandemic or pre-living crisis, living costs of where we are.

👉🏾 So, I think how we have to support this generation is really adapting to the fact that we are in a different climate and really understanding what support looks like now compared to 2019. Just even the idea of a number of young people not having access to digital resource, that enable them to enhance their potential, that's a key factor.

👉🏾 We've recently did some research in partnership with Total Jobs and it said about 50% of 16 to 18 year olds are no longer confident about securing the job that they desire. So there is a real level of anxiety, a real level of disappointment within this generation z. Whether they're school leavers or whether they have aspirations of going into the higher education. So many of them are adapting and changing to the circumstance.

And I think it's just about us providing them with as much wraparound support as we can. I think a prime example of, what I'm referring to when I say wraparound support is there are the practical components around their careers, et cetera, but also mental health, one of the organisations that we have a relationship with is a charity called Young Minds. And during the pandemic, their hotline for parents that needed support went up by 400%

👉🏾 So that was in the height of the pandemic. So now we're in the cost of living crisis, which compounds that, I expect that to be even more so we have to be creative in what a fit-for-purpose support looks like for generations Z.

👉🏾 I would say yes, but I think having a stronger, wider employment market is definitely where we need to go. But for me, I think an example of what we can replicate right across the UK is what they're pioneering in Scotland with the Young Person's Guarantee, because that is, about long-term sustainability.

👉🏾 It's not a short-term solution, which, gives you a spike for a quarter when it comes to new fund employment. It's woven into the fabric of doing things differently in more of an alliance approach. So yes, definitely is about macro policy, but it's also about understanding what role each component plays in that long-term positive outcome.

👉🏾Yeah. I think the APPG is brilliant for what it is. And that's for the fact that it brings together interested parties in this space, and it kind of provides a driver and a think tank space for change.

👉🏾 But you're absolutely right, we're not gonna see that change until central government is bought into it and prioritising that. Now this is where, in theory, the levelling up agenda could and should come into play. Because it's intertwined into the reality of the social mobility profile.

👉🏾 So for me, and the recent autumn statement in regards to the cuts to the levelling up agenda, it just feels like we're going in a bit of a vicious cycle. So I can't see foreseeable significant government change, unless we can see some meat behind the words that have been banded around the, levelling up agenda. That needs a lot more structure, a lot more focus and targets that we can hold the powers that be accountable to. So yeah, the APPG is great as an entity, but it doesn't have the power to create the change that we need to see.

👉🏾 Yeah, so what we do at the moment is first of all we focus on the profile of the young person, and I think a key component of success and progress that we're making is measuring apples with apples.

👉🏾 So in the past is very tempting to kind of measure the cohort against an average across the nation. That's not accurate or appropriate. So what you need to actually do is measure the profile of that young person, get a controlled group of young people that don't have access to the program and see like for like, what kind of outputs you've got. So that's what we've started to do as an organisation and we've been really invested in our data and impact resource to enable us to do that in a proficient manner. But in addition to that, it's the longitudinal research. So that's about engaging our alumni because the kind of work that we're doing is not short term. So yes, we can have immediate results within, have they gone into a positive destination after 12 or 18 months engagement, that's fine. But I'm more interested in where are they three years, five years from there, what impact has our program had on their long term futures and the decisions that they've made. And what's even more profound is then measuring what impact that their journey has had. In their family, in their local community.

👉🏾 Because then it's about inspiring that change. Literally, just a couple of weeks ago I was in Belfast visiting some of our students and there was a young man who did an internship at Citibank. He used to walk past the building every day, didn't know what went on in there, secured an internship, impressed them so much, was invited to one of their assessment centres for an apprenticeship, and he started that apprenticeship this month in Citibank.

👉🏾 So this was an organisation that he knew nothing about 12 months ago. He walked

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Shownotes:

👉🏾How many of you know that Africa is home to approximately one third of the world’s languages?

👉🏾 That there are at least 75 languages in Africa which have more than one million speakers

👉🏾 That it has a combined landmass of China, US, India, Japan and much of Europe (11.7 million sq mi)?

👉🏾 Considering its size, demographic dividend, economic potential, achievements , we know that it does not have the voice or representation that it deserves on all matters, including climate change, SDGs or within global media etc.

👉🏾 Through sheer ignorance and stereotyping most of us continue to use Africa synonymously with a country in Africa? It is 54 distinct countries, that are diverse culturally and geographically

👉🏾 The reality is that Africa is not a monolith. That even Francophone Africa is not one homogenous group

👉🏾 Covid has impacted countries on the continent in different ways. And countries and communities are still trying to figure out what back to normal, or life/work in a post pandemic world would look like

👉🏾 One thing is clear - work from home is not necessarily a thing

The unpalatable truth is that perhaps it works for outsiders to continue to perpetuate the narrative on Africa, to undervalue the expertise/skills of professionals from the continent. The expectation remains that outsiders define strategy and locals just implement and experts/consultants, businesses from the continent charge less for work similar to other markets

Last month, I spoke with Kwame Senou, about the need for education and cultural awareness if businesses are to succeed in the African continent. We spoke about his journey, future trends, what brands could do to take advantage of the opportunities in Africa and much more…..

Listen here….

Memorable passages from the podcast

👉🏾Thank you Sudha for inviting me. It's a real pleasure.

👉🏾 I was born in West Africa in Benin Republic right beside Nigeria. And I grew up in a multicultural family where my dad shared some Ghanaian origin with Benin and my mom being from Benin. And I have two brothers and two sisters, so it was quite a big family. I went to public school, I'm always proud to say that because public education is now kind of synonymous of not being a very good quality. But I went to public school and then after doing science in high school I moved to university where I took law degree.

👉🏾 And after a while doing world law, that's where I got hooked into the communication through journalism, initially the university, and then in a private publication. Being always adventurous and curious. I was always interested in discovering, so I started travelling with my parents. We lived in different part of the country.

👉🏾 And what people always realise about Africa is that South, for instance, is coastal, and the north is almost xxxxxx or desertic a bit arid. People speak different languages, so it's a whole difference. And I remember my first trip to the north of the country, it was in a train, and it was a good experience as the train was moving forward, I was learning more about the country I belong to and the people. In most parts of the world, train stations are like shopping malls and you can see different things being sold in each city and how different they were. And how agriculture is a very important part of the daily lives in Africa.

👉🏾 Having this diverse background, I think I quickly started opening up to the Anglophone words while I was educated in French. And I was reading things from Ghana, things from Nigeria and it quickly shaped me into how I describe myself today.

👉🏾Born in Africa and World Citizen. And beside my job as a journalist, I started working in a bank and my boss who was a Nigerian lady, gave me a book. And I know today it is dangerous to say you have been inspired by Donald Trump, but back then it was a book by Donald Trump called Think Big and Kickass.

👉🏾 But I mean, he changed the title to Think Big and Make It Happen. But this book really reshaped my focus around thinking big and thinking beyond what I know what I take for granted

👉🏾 And she gave me a second book.The second book was Dream from my Father of Barack Obama. So it was a really through the lady, got influenced by the English speaking world while having a French education, having learned French history, french philosophy and French way of thinking. And I think the nuances from both side helped me really better myself.

👉🏾 I would define myself as a communication strategist. In Africa it's very difficult to be a specialist, like someone from the UK will tell me, "oh, I do health comms, work in financial comms cetera. But I will define myself as a comms strategist having worked across different type of clients; whether it's government, non-profit, private organisation, association, special interest group, individuals.

👉🏾 And I will just give you an example to tell you how I love my work. You know, During Covid a good friend of mine, and a client became the mayor of the third city in our country. And in my home country, because I live in Cote D'Ivoire and I'm from Benin Republic. And remember then Covid happened, nobody knew how to react and everything was very centralised, government were ever powerful. And we had a conversation, you are a mayor. How can you make a positive change quickly? And out of that brainstorming came the idea of trying to influence government and financial partners of the country into supporting directly the community.

👉🏾 Because remember the response was everywhere, it was national.So he drafted an op-ed, read and reread, it so as a political space. He was just becoming a mayor, he didn't want to create any wrong perception.

👉🏾 And we published it and I can tell you that within one month the phones were made available. I think his community got something like a hundred thousand US dollar. But all the communities in the country got over 1.5 million dollars, and they could effect change directly in the communities where it was needed the most because government were more busy buying mask, buying ventilators and all that, when people were deprived of their livelihood.

👉🏾 And it appeared to me that it's what I love about this job, the ability to impact, to impact positively. And it can translate quite effectively in such case. Sometime it takes longer, but at the end of the day PR and communication have been responsible of some of the most positive change we can see in the world and I expect PR to still drive this change, especially for my continent, Africa.

👉🏾 Yes. I think the first challenge, and I'm sure everybody who's worked on the global stage faced it, is the challenge for most people to adapt to different environments. I am fortunate not to have this challenge. If you see me walking in the street of New York or in the hotel of Lagos, I'll quickly adapt. Sometime I even adopt the local slang, I'm just coming back from Morocco and I was greeting people in Arabic and they were all amazed like how this guy is able to do that.

👉🏾 But yes the challenge is there is a kind of refusal of adaptation. People are not interested in that, they would claim they want to work in a multicultural world, they want to learn, but they are not really interested, those are just empty words. They don't want to understand the differences. Like, PR is not the same. I mean, the media landscape is not the same. So there are so many changes that I believe before starting anybody should first educate him or herself on what is going on locally, rather than trying to import directly.

👉🏾 The second challenge is obviously language. In Africa, I mean, I'm based in Abidjan where we speak French. And a lot of my requests are in English, or sometime even other languages, like people from Vietnam that I worked with it once. And they don't understand French. They don't seem to understand that there are nuances that English cannot carry into French. So it's always a challenge.

👉🏾 And the third and the most painful is this perception of Africa. I think decades of media brainwashing, and I don't blame the media, they kind of serve global geopolitical interest and all that, but they've brainwashed people into thinking that, there's so little good out of Africa, and that little good is only music, you know? I joke usually saying that when you are an African, a black guy, and you're not are not having dreadlocks on your head and you're not singing, you don't have tattoo on your body, you kind look alien when you travel outside the continent, people don't know what to exactly do of you because they're so used to framing you in that category.

👉🏾 But again, and to your point, education is the key. And I don't think blaming people, fighting them complaining is the solution, it's education. And a lot of us are now realising that patience is also part of that education process. So what we do is that the first time we engage with a client, if they accept of course, some don't have time for that, but we take them through an understanding of the continent, how it is different, we call it Africa briefing. An understanding of the continent, it's geography, it's history, the languages, how people are different.

👉🏾 And let me just give you another example, yesterday I was talking to a client and I was telling him the president is going to be at this event and I think it would make sense that you send someone senior to attend this event because, this president we call it in French, xxxxxxx like kind an influential figure in the region.

👉🏾 And he wouldn't be happy to be dealing only with a local MD or this sort of thing. And this is the kinda small details that make the difference in government relation. And I believe it's the same in the US, you won't expect the ministry of transportation of one country to travel to Washington be received by Joe Biden. It apply everywhere, but people tend to believe that because it's Africa, it's substandard, we should accept that. So we have to educate, and that is really about bringing more African voices out, bringing more information, bringing more publication. And I encourage my team, I challenge myself to write books from 2023, because we need more publication and more voices from Africa talking about African things.

👉🏾 And I am among those people, we are tired of the African experts who desperately don't look African. And despite 10, 20, 30 years of academic studies, there are things that you can only understand when you were born in and you really understand the language.

👉🏾 Thank you for raising this point, and it's given me an opportunity to talk about it and I hope we can have more discussion in organisation like PRCA or CIPR around it. You are very right. This is all part of the global perception of Africa. Africa is substandard, Africa is cheap. People don't need much in Africa which is wrong. Africa, cost of operation for any B2B services provider is higher in Africa than it is in the UK. Travelling between, I mean, Abidjan, if I have to go and deal with a matter in Guinea, it'll cost me $500 or $600, like an economy ticket. That is just one hour and a half from here.

But I think it's also part of keeping the money outside Africa.They have report from measures about cost of living in Africa and all that, and they know the numbers, but they just want to keep the money where they think it's belong. It also have to do with capital, whoever owns the company wants to keep the maximum for him.

👉🏾 But how can we start educating clients? I think the work start at home. Let our partner agencies, the networks we are part of, start treating us with respect and making sure that when they're talking to the client, they do not expect the client to see Africa as substandard. And again, to this point you can look at when foreign experts travel to Africa, they are paid even more than they can expect in the US. We've seen so many situations where after working in Africa for five years, experts are no longer happy to go back because they're going to get the big house with the garden, the Jeep from Toyota and so many packages. The children, school fees, the insurers, the life insurance and all that.

👉🏾 It's actually cheaper to employ an African who is here based here than to bring a foreign expert but they still do that, they pay them decently. So they realise that working in Africa is not cheaper. But working in Africa by Africans should be cheaper, it shouldn't be the case, it's wrong and I think it starts within US agencies when we are making quotes, when we are sending financial proposal, we should really be specific about, we treat everybody equally. If we are billing hours, let the rate be the same for everyone. If we are billing overhead, let's make sure that we listen to the African agencies. Because clients are going to anyway pay. Second and I want to take some ownership on that, we also on the continent should work engage, lobby to show people numbers, data. Not only complain, because sometime I feel we also complained too much without providing data.

👉🏾 And this is a job to be done. We should show clients how an operation look like on the continent. Like, I was talking to a friend in the US and she was like, why do you have to do all this for an event? And I'm like, the hotel doesn't offer that service. I have to bring everything, the sound system, the video guy, everything I have to do. So you can understand that I will bill more hours than someone in the US who can just sign a contract with the hotel and the hotel take care of everything in the background.

👉🏾 And again, it comes to what you mentioned before, education. We need to start providing data to people outside the continent. And I'm very happy of the work PRCA Africa is doing in showing the state of the industry. We should also start thinking of how to show clients what is cost of operation, how business is conducted, how much it cost to run a successful campaign and all that. So that they understand and they grow in that direction.

👉🏾 I mean, I would say nine and nine and a half. Because we tend to live in this single village now. You can wake up in Africa and know exactly what's happening at the G20 summit in Indonesia. I think I'm part of that last generation who was not too connected. When I was a young kid, we only got news from the radio and the TV news was very short. It was 1:00 PM at midday and 8:00 PM in the evening, and that's all. And it was 30 minutes. But today through internet, we can know what is happening everywhere.

👉🏾 Like yesterday I receive a storm alert in Chicago because my cousin is living there. And this makes you deal, contact, engage with people from all over the world. So the first skill I believe is cultural intelligence. How do I engage with the Japanese? How different is an Indian who is living in the UK, because it's not the same with an Indian who is based in India. How people in Latin America see things like respect, how do you address them? How do I switch from a country like Benin where you can't be too friendly, you can't be too forward with people to a country like Côte d'Ivoire. You know, in French, we have a difference between using the second person of singular or using the second person of plural as a sign of respect.

👉🏾 So how do you switch between those nuances? How do I engage with someone who thinks in Swahili but then speaks English, and different background, different people, so different expectation. And when you are not culturally intelligent, it's become challenging to work. Because even here in West Africa, we see Indian in company, Americans in company, Italian Japanese, Chinese, everywhere.

👉🏾And I think what we leaders need to do generally is to be more humble. I always say that the danger of leadership is that you reach leadership positions usually after some accomplishment, and it can give you a sense of self-worth that can be dangerous in accepting others and their differences. And this culture of humility, this culture of willingness to learn would really help into making cultural intelligence a common skill.

👉🏾How do I discuss climate change from London to São Tomé, an island of the coast of Africa. It's really important, because we are going to advise clients who usually rely on us for this cultural intelligence, they actually need us to provide the information. So I feel it is really one of the area we should dedicate education.

👉🏾 And I want to talk about the work done by Robyn de Villiers, who is the chair of BCW Africa. She started educating people on the culture map. And I was really impressed listening to her mentioning how people are not really aware and it creates conflict and cultural intelligence as a tool to prevent conflict. Yes. I always smile about this particular question of future of work and hybrid and all that, because in Africa, while a lot of people who just push this narrative, but the situation is quite simple.

👉🏾 If you look at social survey in Africa, what you realise this job is still the number one problem in Africa. And we have a population on average below the age of 35, which is 75%. These people need a job, they need a job and they don't even have a demand. They just want to get work. What we saw with Covid is that of course there was this time between March and July 2020, where everybody had to kind of use a dual hybrid mode. But what I am seeing increasingly is that everybody's going back to work fully for those who are working. But let talk to you about something different that happened.

👉🏾 What happened with Covid is actually that it opened job possibilities to people in Africa on the global market. In Nigeria, there are graphic designer, web designers, developers, IT engineer that are now operating remote for company in the UK, in the US. So because remote work was now possible in so many organisation, in Europe or in the US.

👉🏾 So many African talent could apply for job and even get them and live off it. What is less told also is that even us on the continent, I have five people on full remote. COVID helped me being attractive to them as a company. So they...

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WARNING: THE INFORMATION BELOW MAY BE TRIGGERING

1.64 lakhs, a daily average of 450 or 18 per hour…..

That is the number of deaths due to suicides in India in 2021

The statistics for death by suicide amongst young people is worse. Not surprising then that this is the third leading cause of death amongst young adults and a significant problem amongst college students in India.

Mental health can bye impacted due to a myriad of factor amongst young people. The two big issues that stand out are a) Stigma around mental health, it is a taboo subject that individuals and families are reluctant to engage with. 2) An education system that is not knowledge oriented but exam focused - testing students on their ability to ace the system.

In a post independence India there has been a rise in social capital attached to educational attainment (because it leads to acceptable jobs, financial and material gains). Indian students face some of the toughest competitive examinations in the world. And just to share an example - with less than 1% acceptance rate the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) exam is said to be tougher than getting in Harvard. A million students, yes that is right 1 MILLION students apply for the 13000 seats.

The pandemic of course has exacerbated the issue. Peer pressure, all consuming access to media, parental pressure, fear of failure, lack of access to opportunities all compound the issue. With prominent Bollywood celebrities and more young people speaking about the issue - there has been some progress. But, by and large the issue remains a taboo and largely undiagnosed.

In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with Dr Lata Dhir Prof of Organisational Behaviour & Leadership and Group Head of Design Thinking at SPJIMR about the deep challenges we face in addressing this hidden crisis. Lata is deeply passionate about helping create the structures and safe spaces to support young people and proactively address mental health issues. She believes this is her life’s mission - her why?

If you would like to learn more, listen here

Memorable Passages from the podcast

👉🏾 Good morning. I'm excited to be a part of this whole journey. How are you doing?

👉🏾 Who am I? Okay, I am a professor of Organisational behaviour and Leadership, at SPJIMR, one of the top schools in India. That’s my formal introduction. And I'm a psychologist. But my major, major passion lies in mental health. And that's something that I'm really passionate about and that's maybe the ‘why’ for most of the work that I do.

👉🏾 It's a plethora of things, right? Generally, when you think of saying that you're a professor, in a traditional institute or a college, you are mainly teaching, right? Teaching, of course, is a core, but there's a lot of research that we need to work on, on the work that we present in classrooms, case studies that we write, articles that we need to publish. That's one part of the whole process. We do a lot of management development programs for organisations. The academia industry kind of connections and meet up, become extremely important if you need to really solve real-life problems in the world. So that's where we collaborated a lot with industries, sectors across India. We do consulting work with them. Sometimes we write a book also .

👉🏾Thank you. A very, very interesting person and a very interesting organisation as you know. It’s a completely Indian-based genesis in the HDFC group of organisations. And on Mr. H T Parekh and Deepak Parekh, who are the pioneers of this financial sector. I've added some more things in my plethora of work which is Vishwas, creating psychologically safe spaces and counselling sessions.

👉🏾 I do a lot of personal growth labs and leadership labs, I think that would be my forte if you had to say. Maybe I'll take a minute to kind of tell you the difference, we do workshops, we do classes, we do labs. So when we do sessions on say leadership for example, we are just giving you the knowing piece of knowledge, of theories et cetera.

👉🏾 The moment we get your workshop, we talk about some kind skills, communication, negotiation, team building, et cetera. But the moment we talk about a lab, we are actually impacting the being, maybe give them a place and a space where they can experiment with their thoughts and feelings. And that's the space that I really like to work on.

👉🏾 Like all children who will do well in their studies in India, we either become a doctor or an engineer. So I was going to be a doctor. Very soon realised that doctor was not something that I wanted to be. I was not really interested. So I had you know, forward-looking parents who kind of said, Ok, then drop out and I dropped out from medicine and finally got into psychology, right? And psychology was not something that was happening decades back. Right. It was a lot of stigma, but I did get into psychology. So that maybe was the genesis, the connecting of the dots of my why today. I went onto psychology without knowing why I was doing psychology. And I completed my graduation, my masters. Did an MBA in HR just to make my parents feel a better about themselves, okay, their daughter has an MBA and then of course I did my MPhil and PhD in psychology.

👉🏾But when I came into a B school mental health psychology was not something that people really talked about, like a decade and a half back. People were generally talking about quantitative toolkits like finance, marketing, et cetera. And I wanted to bring in psychology, but the moment I would go to the corporate world and say I'm a psychologist, people say, Wow, No!

👉🏾 And that's when I said I'm a behavioural scientist, right? It sounds more fancy.

👉🏾 More acceptable, yeah. But I kind of felt psychology was important because at the heart of everything that we do, is understanding human behaviour. And that is when I started focusing on labs, I started focusing on understanding the psychological mechanisms of what the aspirations, the goals, thoughts and feelings of human beings are.

👉🏾 As we say, we have no idea about our emotions at all. We do not know. We know the world, we know the moon, but we do not know, our own emotions, right? And we do not understand our own thoughts. So that's where I started kind of focusing a lot on that. And I started conducting these labs, and that is when students would keep coming back to me. After the lab and say, like we'll not just talk for ourselves because suddenly the pandoras box is opened and they started thinking about themselves, reflecting about their behaviour and their thoughts and feelings and they would just keep coming back to me. I had this one student who came to me, so came back Sudha and that's kind of left me an impact is when he walked into my cabin and says, "You know, ma'am, I go into other professors' room to understand marketing and finance and getting a job, but when I walk into your room, I feel that I'm going to get answers to my life".

👉🏾 And he said it in Hindi, which is Vishwas hai mujhe (I trust) And Vishwas in English means trust. I trust that I'll get my answers. I have that Vishwas that something, you know, good will happen, that we know. That kind of hit me and I started realising that there were a lot of people coming, a lot of students coming to me, looking for that agenda less conversations, which then led to more crucial conversations in my cabin, and they're talking about themselves. But those crucial conversations needed that safe space where they could happen, right?

👉🏾 So I started thinking a little more deeper and I said, here is this space maybe I have created not knowingly, but it is happening. Okay, there must be something that I'm doing, so there's an art to it, but there's a science to it. So I started kind of delving deep into the science of creating those psychologically safe spaces. And I also realised that there are, these people who are coming to me. What if there are others out there who do not have an access and don't even know that they can go to somebody, right? Cause the moment Sudha, we talk about mental health, we talk about mental illness, we talk about anxiety and depression. And we know that there are places we can go to, but we may not go because of stigma. And that is when I kind of thought that we could create this space and I started reaching out to students and then formalised an entire process and we launched Vishwas in September 2015. And that is a time when UN, in the sustainable development goals, added mental health. I got to know later, but it was like some god's connection building up, but that's what we did. So I think we are latching onto a higher goal on the sustainable development goal, number three, which is mental health.

And I think that's when I started getting more and more involved, more and more deeper and the ‘why’ of what I'm doing in my life

👉🏾 Yeah, you're right Sudha. It's a huge responsibility because when somebody opens out their heart to you, you know, you need to honour their being. And building the trust is like a verb, right? Like I always say my students like, love is a verb, it's not a noun. In the same way, trust is a verb, you need to build it up. You need to show your own vulnerabilities and if you need to share something about yourself, for them to be able to kind of get into that space where they can then form their trusting relationship.

👉🏾 Yeah, so being a psychologist, let me go back to talking about a psychologist, Carl Rogers, He talks about unconditional positive regard. His therapy starts with saying that I give you the unconditional positive regard. And it's a humanistic psychology movement, which says that I accept you for who you are, I lay no conditions.

👉🏾 And that is what is not happening. We have so many conditions that we put on our people whether it's parents or teachers or society, so many, many conditions. I will respect you, I will love you only if you meet those conditions. We starting on the wrong track, number one. In our society, we have expectations, we have conditions, we want to change every individual because we believe sitting in some high society as parents or teachers or as whoever we want, in authority figures, telling ourselves that we know how the world should run, and we have made certain rules and you need to follow those rules.

Who says?

👉🏾 I think we start with the wrong kind of an assumption saying that we know what's best. And Sudha you know for sure that covid turned the world upside down and it told you that whatever assumptions you were thinking is not actually going to happen. The way you thought the work would happen is not happening

👉🏾 And two years down the line, have we learnt our lesson?

👉🏾 Not at all.

👉🏾 Because you want the world to go back to where it started and everybody say, "Oh, let's go back to the normal". What is normal? And I'm sorry if I'm digressing, but the question that, you know, really comes to my mind is, the world will not be able to go back, because history demands that you go forward. We can learn our lessons from what's happened, but we need to move forward.

👉🏾 But we are not.

👉🏾Again, we are stuck in the same rat race, that herd mentality, the expectations, judging people based on their success on how much do you earn. And so we create that kind of pressure on our kids as parents. And we want them to live up to those particular expectations. I've already put some conditions and I'm already wanting to change you from who you are. Interestingly, let's look at nature, lot to learn from nature. We don't tell a rose plant to grow like a Daffodil.

👉🏾 We don't do that. Then why are we doing it to human beings? And so we are doing it to satisfy our own, call it ego.There is so much of mental health issues that we see around ourselves. If don't look at only anxiety, depression, suicide. We look at loneliness, we look at FOMO, we look at cognitive dissonance, we look at fear of failure, we look at how to manage our disappointments. These are across the spectrum of human race. And how many of us, if we had to question ourselves, how many of us our actually thriving in our lives?

👉🏾 Yeah. It'll not happen without a mindset change.

👉🏾 So I kind of heard somebody saying failure or success is just a feedback. It is no reflection about who you are as a person. That's extremely important, because failure is something that's happening outside me. And it's happening and I need to respond to it. And then I go back to another very famous psychiatrist I'm very, very fond of there's a book ‘Man's search for Meaning’ by Viktor Frankel. It's a very interesting book to read.

👉🏾 And he talks about when he was in the concentration camp and he was fighting so many issues, wasn't sure whether he'd be alive, but he kind of told himself that between the stimulus and the response lies the space. And in that space lies my freedom to choose. So failures are inevitable, they will happen.

👉🏾 But how do I respond to that failure is a choice that I have to make and that's something that we have to do. So while we can say that the society is not accepting our failures, and I'm trying to kind of bring in another concept here, which is Steven Covy's concept about circle of concern and circle influence.

👉🏾 So I'm concerned about what the world is doing, I'm concerned about, the society and expectations and parents and teachers. We wanna enable our youth to be able to get the power to decide what they can influence and that is what they can control.

👉🏾 And the control lies in that space where I decide what I will do with my failure. If I look at failure as a reflection of who I am, a reflection of my own, my self-esteem is gonna go down. And I'm gonna keep on ruminating about that whole stuff. But on the other hand, if in that space I decided that's a failure, it's just a feedback. I am going to reflect and find out cognitively what went wrong, why did I fail? What could I have done wrong? Have those conversations with myself and with other people who understand me. I will be able to accept failure because failures, like, you know, there's a very old saying which says, failures are stepping stones to success.

👉🏾 I have to fail right? There is no way that I'm not fail. But in India or this side of the world where there are so many people, right? Opportunities are less. And getting into that prime college, prime job you have to fight, like somebody said, very interestingly, getting into a top B school in India is tougher than getting into, say, a Harvard or Stanford, because of the ratio.

So I think it's something that as a culture, we need to, first of all understand failure is fine. Talk about the fact we should have conversations around failure.

👉🏾 I wrote this book on HDFC and Deepak Parekh and H T Parekh. There were struggles, there were failures, there's conflicts that happened. And that is a journey that we need to kind of celebrate too. When we talk we about our role models, we only talk about somebody who's reached the top, but what about the struggles?

👉🏾 So I'll, go forward and come backward to your answer. You're saying they should not be left behind. So those who are not left behind and they've reached the top, whether it's top B schools or it's a corporate world, many of them are burnt out even before they reach 40.

👉🏾 Many of them fight mental health issues even before they reach certain level. There is no happiness. There is no joy in what they're doing. They find no meaning in the work that they're doing. After some time they don't know what they're doing with their jobs. They don't have the courage to leave it because they're now in golden handcuffs. Okay, you will reach there and then what? I will end up into a mental wreck. And there's another book by Clayton Christensen on ‘How to Measure Your Life’. A very well-established professor at Harvard. And he says, how will you have fulfilling relationships, how will you have fulfilling careers and how will you stay on change? When you get great power come with great responsibility.

👉🏾 Are we teaching them that? We're not. We just saying, just succeed. By all means, reach the top. By all means, get the money, get the big car and a big house. And you know, you can show off to the world and I as parents and teacher and say, Oh, that child is mine. Wow! And look at the pressure that person is going through, it's crazy. So is the education system to be blamed? A hundred percent. Because, look at the marks that we give student, it's out in the open, everybody knows I've got an 80-90% and the other person's got a 50%. What a super way of putting on somebody's self-esteem. And the guy with a 90% believes that, Oh wow, I'm God's gift to mankind now.

👉🏾 And that person comes into a B school or a top institute in the world, and now sudden realises that there are others who are as good with the 90% as he or she is. And now I don't know how to manage that failure, that disappointment.

👉🏾 So right from the beginning, right when we are in school and college, we are teaching our kids to be competitive. And telling our kids that there's this one best way of answering a question. And sorry, Sudha, but I'm gonna take you to three lessons that we learned in school, which we need to throw in the dustbin.

Number one; teacher is always right. Teachers not always right, the manager, the boss authority figure is always not right. They're too many perspectives to one thing.

Second, the reason I hated maths when I was growing up, was, there is only one best method of answering the question. If I don't follow the steps, I `will get less marks even if I get the right answer.

And the third is that it is only through my own efforts will I reach success. And life teaches you, it's not about independence, it's for interdependence.

Where is that coming from? I haven't taught them any of those skills.

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What is it like to be brought up in a conservative, small town where girls are groomed from their childhood to just be good daughters, wives and mothers?

For the 85th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with Tehseen Zaidi, Head Communications, Syngenta India. Growing up in a small town in UK Tehseen was unlike her peers, she was opinionated and spoke her mind. She was influenced and supported in large measure by her father (her role model) who believed in empowering his girls, enabling them to fly and define their own journey.

It was refreshing speaking to Tehseen, she was disarmingly candid - opening up about her personal life, her mantra’s to beating the imposter syndrome, her advocacy for gender diversity/women in leadership. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Challenges women face in progressing to managerial and leadership positions including the barriers she faced in her professional life

👉🏾 Self doubt/imposter syndrome (she has no time for it); negotiating pay rise and promotions

👉🏾 The role of mentors and sponsors in supporting women to grow and lead

👉🏾 What differentiates women leaders and the role of empathy in leadership

👉🏾 Her advise for aspiring women leaders

👉🏾 Balancing act: juggling a career, family and personal ambitions

Thank you Tehseen for making time for this wonderful conversation…….

Memorable Passages from the podcast:

My Guest on The Elephant in the Room Tehseen Zaidi Head - Communications, Syngenta India

👉🏾Good afternoon Sudha. Thanks for the wonderful opportunity. It's always good to connect with like-minded people and speak your heart out on the subjects you really like. So thank you once again for the opportunity.

👉🏾 Well, the first introduction of mine will be someone who passionately works for women, and who always believes that women can empower each other.

👉🏾 Professionally I've been a media professional for past 20 years. I've spent, more than a decade with NDTV, taking care of the crisis communications, proactive communications, PR, relationships and networking. Currently I'm working with a Swiss-based multinational called, Syngenta India private limited, where I'm heading their corporate communications department. Apart from this introduction of mine, I am a mommy to two boys, one who's going to be a teenager soon, and the other one who's six year old and a very, very naughty brat . I'm also a pet lover with a cat and two birds who coexist and love each other.

👉🏾 No, they roam around freely and coexist beautifully.

👉🏾 Well, that's a very interesting question Sudha. Yes, I grew up in conservative environment where the only future for a girl child was to get their basic education, which is still 10th or maybe till 12th. And then look beautiful, cook tasty food, sing well, be presentable and be a good wife. So that's how women in my town were treated.

👉🏾 For me, it was different. I was a very stubborn child from my beginning. So when I was like towards my teens, my mother started teaching me how to cook good food because according to her, this was the primary responsibility of a girl and I will be judged if I don't know cooking.

👉🏾 So that is where my rebel started and I said, No, whoever I'll be marrying will cook for me and I'll not cook...

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In the 84th Episode of The Elephant in the Room Podcast, I spoke with Dhruvi Shah, Executive Trustee and CEO of Axis Bank Foundation about her journey as a banker and transitioning to working for the foundation.

In the episode we talked about the work being done by Axis Bank Foundation in the ‘sustainable livelihoods’ in rural India, priorities for the Foundation, the state of the social sector in India. We also chatted about 👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 The importance of taking into account the cultural context of local communities to solve problems

👉🏾 Grant funds as a catalyst to enable local communities to access credit from government programmes, build capacity, form SHGs etc

👉🏾 Measuring return on investment - for every rupee the Foundation spends, the Foundation is able to leverage between five to seven rupees

👉🏾 Changing operating model of foundations in the social sector today, where they are no longer just grant making bodies but also implementers of projects.

👉🏾 Changing priorities in a post Covid world - supporting community health initiatives and rural youth

👉🏾 Sustainability not being the destination - but focusing on the lifecycle of the journey

👉🏾 Allowing communities to experience the learning curve and acknowledging failure

👉🏾 Build the capacity of NGOs to enable them to grow as an organisation. The need for competitive pay to attract the best talent

👉🏾 Existential challenges facing the social sector in India

“So like I said, we've been doing rural livelihoods since 2010, giving us like 12 years. At an operating level, there are two or three opportunities where we need to kind of invest further. One, is on the communities participation in the markets, they're now able to produce more than subsistence. They are going to engage and interact with the market. So how do you build that capacity to have informed engagement with the market? And on the other side concerns around ecological sustainability, degradation. That's kind of two spectrums of the value chain. Now, this is more on the operating side. We are at this nice cusp of market and the society and how do we get the communities or the society to demand more from the market and how do we influence the market to be profitable at the bottom of the pyramid?” Dhruvi Shah

Memorable Passages from the podcast

👉🏾So, I lead Axis Bank Foundation. I'm based in Bombay and I'm a migrant here. So I've been in Bombay for many years now. I came here for work. I was with a ABN AMRO for a 18 years and after that I joined Axis for about six years. I'm a commerce graduate and during the banking I got the opportunity to move to the not-for-profit side. I think it's a nice thing that happened, because it's not only helped me grow professionally, I think even as a person it's been a wonderful journey for me. And I, feel lucky that I have found something that I enjoy doing and something that I also believe in very strongly.

👉🏾 It was definitely not by design or even by accident. I honestly didn't plan as much. And you know, in those days, like 20, 25 years ago, you studied something and you did something it kind of very well aligned and I was lucky to have transversed into something very different than whatever I ever intended to do.

👉🏾 So when I look back, it feels like a very natural progression for me. I was part of the banking system, we've...

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Shownotes:  Racism/casteism comes in various forms across the world, sometimes it is overt and sometimes it is coded. In either form it negatively impacts the life and life chances of millions of people who move to a different country to seek a better or more stable future. Sometimes it can break people and other times it makes them more resilient and more determined.   Did you know that Sweden is a country where every fourth resident(24.9) has a foreign background and every third (32.3) has at least one parent born abroad. But, does this diversity translate into a more inclusive country or workforce? Sweden’s recent election results are telling.  For Sushma, the experience of looking for employment at the start of her stay in Sweden was deeply disheartening. In her own words, “Recruitment bias (unconscious) has worked against me in 99 out of 100 job applications. That gives me 1 interview opportunity in 100+ submitted applications; where I check 100% (more or less) of the job requirements on the ad.”  Unfortunately, this is not unique to Sweden, or any one country. My own experiences in the UK, a couple of years back were similar if not worse. I survived but I am still smarting from the experience.  In addition to being the Head of Talent Acquisition, Northern Europe at Transcom, Sushma has also been involved in the local parliament in Lund since five years. She is determined to move the needle and contribute to building a fairer society.  In this episode we spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 Her experiences growing up in different parts of India and the world. The absence of a sense of belonging or affinity to any one culture 👉🏾 Her move to Sweden, and challenges she faced seeking work in the country 👉🏾 Diversity washing 👉🏾 The building blocks of an inclusive organisation 👉🏾 The need to dismantle decades old work practices 👉🏾 Bias free recruitment and the myth of average human being around which workplaces are designed “But then when I was trying to look for a job again, just recently maybe about a year ago it was the same challenges. This time it was a hundred-odd positions that I'd applied to I only had three companies that reached out. And you're sitting there and you're thinking, is it better to be rejected, interviewed and rejected? Or is it better to not be seen at all? What is the lesser of the two evils, right? And I feel like I'd rather that companies met me and then if they didn't like me, did not continue with me in the process. But I don't get the opportunity to present myself, I wish we could do more. And I usually apply for roles where I know I could at least fit 80 to a 100 percent of what's written on the job ad” Sushma Uthappa-Schwerdt Memorable passages from the podcast: 👉🏾 Thank you Sudha, I'm really glad to be a part of this and thanks for reaching out. I'm calling in from Sweden today, this is where I'm based, currently. A little background about myself, I was born in India, lived a little bit all over India. Everything from Chennai to Kashmir, Assam, Delhi, Mumbai. So we've travelled around a lot and also lived abroad quite a lot in my childhood in countries like Kenya and Sri Lanka, I've also lived in the US. The last 10 years I've been in Sweden. 👉🏾 So when it comes to my background and culture, that's a hard question, I would say, because, I am a mixture of all these people and all these places that I've been and lived in. So I don't have an association with a single culture or even belonging in that sense. The good and the bad. So yeah, that's a little bit about my background. Very short.  👉🏾 It's been about five months since I joined Transcom. I head up the talent acquisition space here, basically taking care of all things talent attraction and recruitment for the Northern European cluster. I've spent a good portion of my career, it's been about 18 years within talent acquisition. It's an area that I've stuck to for a...

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At the first PRCA EIAC Conference in September this year, Kantar launched its 2022 Inclusion Index. The Inclusion Index covers 24 industries across 14 countries and 18000 respondents. For Kantar a key purpose of the report, is to enable organisations to understand, measure and track and their own progress in developing an inclusive workplaces. Interestingly, there is data from key markets and geographies - so it is easier to figure out progress or lack of in markets. 

A shocking but not surprising finding is that DEI progress has stalled. Does this mean that the rhetoric by organisations on equity & inclusion does not match action? From my conversations in the UK, Middle-East and India, I hear the word fatigue a lot during conversations on DEI. What is clear from the report, however, is that employees, customers and clients are noticing the push on DEI but that is not enough with shifting employee expectations and businesses have to work harder to reach the new bar. 

According to the report,” Employees want businesses to go beyond DEI campaigns and cultural days. They want to see a stronger focus on driving systemic change.” 

To understand the data and insights better, I spoke with Nadach Musungu, Inclusion Lead at Kantar and Abhijeet Roy, Senior Growth Leader at Kantar in this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast. 

We started with a conversation on Nadach’s career and journey so far  👉🏾 Her learnings from leading on D&I at big organisations 👉🏾 The Kantar Inclusion Index and the purpose of it 👉🏾 Key insights from the report 👉🏾 The Global engagement gap 👉🏾 Industries performing well 👉🏾 The differences based on geographies?  👉🏾 The need for Cultural intelligence 👉🏾 Why organisations struggle with inclusion 👉🏾 The drivers for inclusion and belonging in an organisation And the three things she would prioritise on. Thank you Nadach and Abhijeet for this conversation  “The fact remains that for minority groups, experience in the workplace is measurably poorer, driven by a lack of sense of belonging, experience of discrimination and presence of negative behaviours” Kantar Inclusion Index 2022 Memorable passages from the podcast:  👉🏾Thank you for having me.  👉🏾 Thank you for having me as well.  👉🏾 So I started my career in market research, and this was purely accidental. I was doing my masters and I was looking to make some money to support me because I was cut off from the bank of mum and dad. And yeah, I fell into market research and I enjoyed it and things kind of evolved and picked up from there. 👉🏾 It was a very interesting space, I worked in various consult consultancies and I worked for various companies in-house. And I was typically the only a black woman, which was to be expected in a way. Not saying that I was kind of not thinking about it, it did have an impact on me, but I numbed myself to the experience. So I just knew that when I go into an organisation it'll only be me within the team or within the entire organisation. And it kind of reminded me of my just general experience in schools, of being the only person but kind of thinking it to be normal. And thinking that that would be the typical experience as well for any ethnic minority.  👉🏾 And when I was thinking about my journey and thinking about how that had an impact on me developing, I kind of had to mimic and shadow other people try to fit in. I didn't want to stick out too much. Even though I loved so much about me and my personality, my uniqueness, and my culture, because I felt like I didn't fit in. I found myself a lot trying to kind of null myself out, or blend in the background and that kind of dulled a lot of my magic. And a lot of my interests or the things that I thought like would've been a valuable asset to an organisation or within a school 👉🏾 And it was only until after I graduated from my masters is when I...

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Shownotes: We all know that countries and cultures are not monolithic and homogeneous. That when we speak about diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI), we are at different points in our journey; sensitivity and awareness levels may wildly differ from country to country within a region or a continent. So, the drivers for DEI will differ from one geography to another. For practitioners to not force fit HQ policies in local markets, a level of cultural intelligence is critical to understanding this. Over the coming weeks I will share insights from my conversations with DEI leaders and C-Suite from the Indian subcontinent in an attempt to better understand the priorities, socio-cultural barriers, legislation, and best practice.  My guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast, this week, is Richa Singh (she/her)  VP HR - D&I and CSR at Max Life Insurance. In 2020 Richa was featured in the Top 50 Global Ally Executives Outstanding list by Yahoo Finance. In this episode I spoke with Richa about her DEI journey, acknowledging her privilege and becoming an advocate and ally.  We also spoke about how organisations could leverage the current buzz around all issues of inclusion and diversity 👉🏾 The biggest challenges to building an inclusive business 👉🏾 The relevance/importance of ERGs to building an inclusive organisation 👉🏾 DEI talk vs action. The slow pace of change and movement on pay, representation and culture 👉🏾 What she finds rewarding and frustrating in her line of work 👉🏾 Her advise to those starting on the journey 👉🏾 Businesses with great stories to tell And what inspires her and keep her motivated. Memorable passages from the podcast: 👉🏾Thank you for having me Sudha, it's a pleasure.  👉🏾 I'm you know, usually not very good at doing this, talking about oneself, but as a means of introduction I'm Richa, I'm based out of Delhi, India. 👉🏾 I'm a cisgender woman, my pronouns are she and her. I'm also a single mother who is a mother to a teenage son. And in work front I lead DEI and CSR at Max life insurance. I'm also a certified coach and a mentor to young women. I've had almost 20 years of experience in the hospitality industry. Richa: I used to head learning and development and diversity and inclusion, for a group of five-star hotels. And I also helped set up the Keshav Suri Foundation, which is a not-for-profit organisation, working for the inclusion of the LGBTQ youth in India. 👉🏾 Actually, I love telling that story Sudha I completely acknowledge my privilege. Raised in the capital city of India, I had the best of education, I had very supportive parents. Not once I think growing up, did I ever feel that there was any difference between the way me or my brother were treated, which is actually the case in many Indian families. So that difference was never apparent to me. 👉🏾 I went to a co-ed school and boys and girls were treated as equals and healthy competition. So I think this was a blind spot and I kind of grew up with the understanding that I was a very inclusive person.  👉🏾 And when I started in my previous organisation, this talk about diversity and equity and inclusion was a very fresh topic in India. Somewhere in the year, 2017, end 18, that was also the time when section 377 got scraped. So almost every organisation, I like to say came out of their own closets. and we're talking about DEI, Indian and multinational companies. I was fortunate enough to be working in a company that took this agenda very, very seriously. 👉🏾 And we were more concerned, I would say, and more focused towards the LGBTQ inclusion front. And I would often ask myself this question that, why do we need to speak about this at all? I mean, people are people and everybody is only being assessed on their merit and what they bring to the table and if that is what we are focusing on then how does it matter what their gender is? What their sexuality is? What their ability or...

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Shownotes For the 80th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, I met with the amazing Sheeraz Gulsher, one of the co-Founders of People Like Us. People Like Us is an award winning not-for-profit that celebrates and supports media, marketing and communications professionals from Black, Asian, Mixed Race and minorities ethnic backgrounds.  According to the website they are also working towards building a fairer workplace through equitable pay. A couple of weeks ago I met with Sheeraz to learn more about the ambition and vision for People Like US.  We also spoke about:  👉🏾 The need for the industry to prioritise in order to progress 👉🏾 The role of fair pay in attracting diverse talent 👉🏾 We discussed how much progress the industry had made on equity, inclusion and belonging in the industry  👉🏾 How communications practitioners can contribute whether in their workplaces or in advising clients We also spoke about best practice and what keeps him going.  Listen on any of your favourite podcast platforms 👇🏾👇🏾

Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Thank you very much Sudha. What an honour to be here.  👉🏾 Absolutely. So I've been in the comms industry for about eight, nine years now. I suppose showing my age. So I'm a guy that's born and bred in Luton to wonderful British Pakistani family. I've got three older brothers who are all my best mates. And yeah, I suppose in my time in comms, I've had a real rollercoaster in a fun way in the industry. And yeah, I'm really fortunate now to work at SNAP, looking after EMEA consumer coms. And I suppose in my spare time, I'm running an organisation called People Like Us, which I'm very proud of.  👉🏾 Oh, wow. You're like the grand master of comms.  👉🏾 Yeah, I'm very fortunate actually and they all are very different, I think, to each other. So my oldest brother, he is a bit like Del boy actually, it's the best way to describe him. Bit of a Wheeler dealer, but a wonderful man with a huge heart. My brother Darian is in comms and actually inspired me to join the folds. and my other brother, he is the most patient and kind person I know. And I like to think I have qualities from each of them. Maybe not all the time, but sometimes.  👉🏾 So ‘People like Us’ is essentially a movement that celebrates and supports, journalists and comms professionals from minority ethnic backgrounds. So my brother and I started this about two and a half years ago. It was just before COVID actually, and then at the time on paper, everything was great. We both had great jobs, both flying through our careers and everything was kind of great, but there was this quiet dissatisfaction, just growing. Just looking at representation in the industries, which was very low, people were being underpaid, unrepresented and blah, blah, blah, like I'm sure all your listeners have heard this all before. And we thought, why don't we try and address this? But my brother and I are, I suppose we're particularly in some ways we thought, okay, if we're gonna do this we have to follow two principles.  👉🏾  The first is whatever we do, needs to bring some kind of meaningful change, otherwise it just wasn't really worth it. We're not really here to virtue signal or whatever, and second, it just had to be fun. Like if it isn't fun, then what's point. So we kind of get close to these principles as best as we can. And we came up with a concept, People like Us, which essentially, I suppose we do a few things. The first is we host events every quarter to profile brilliant journalists marketing or comms professionals from Black, Asian, Mixed race, Minority ethnic backgrounds, and each have a fun, but slightly tricky task of essentially talking about a piece of work they're really proud of, so it could be. I don't know, a breaking a news story, they were at first, or investigative journalism piece, a PR stunt or whatever really, but they had to...

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Shownotes In several episodes of The Elephant in the Room podcast I have spoken with CEOs, academics, influencers on what leadership means. This is a part of my own quest to understand leaders and leadership by listening to others and to redefine it through the lens of my own experience.  In this episode of the podcast I speak with @Dave Guerra the author of best seller ‘Super Performance’, a transformist and a proponent of servant leadership.  In this freewheeling conversation we spoke about  👉🏾 Exploring what leadership actually means - is it a position? A set of skills or behaviour? 👉🏾 The relevance of words like powerful, commanding, fearless, bossman in today’s context 👉🏾 Resetting the expectation of/from leaders and leadership 👉🏾 Servant leadership - challenges/risks associated with the idea  👉🏾 Building cohesive cultures in a world in a constant flux 👉🏾 Authentic leadership, Conscious leadership, Ethical/Moral Leadership and Servant Leadership “And if you look at the planet and the state that the planet is in, I would say, like we discussed in our original conversation, we have too much yang energy, not enough yin energy, too much control, not enough liberation, too much management, not enough leadership. And so the real problem is a paradigm that we are still tethered to, especially in a western society, this paradigm of organisation as machine, a mechanistic paradigm that presupposes that you can engineer an organisation or anything into perfect efficiency, but that's not true.”  Memorable Passages from the podcast 👉🏾 My pleasure Sudha.  👉🏾 Yeah, I thought about this in preparing for this conversation and every time I have to answer that question, I have to think about it again, because I think that's been an inquiry my whole life around who actually am I and what am I really about? 👉🏾 And I think what I've kind of come to is, I'm really a seeker of truth. I am just deeply curious to understand how things work, and in particular I developed a deep curiosity for how is it that business works and what is it that makes business successful very early in my life.  👉🏾 And then I went to college to kind of learn about business and get a business education and then came out of college and I still didn't feel comfortable that I understood business. I guess I would say I had a mechanical appreciation, but I didn't have a practical appreciation of business. And then I went to work for companies and especially very large businesses and that provoked me even more around understanding how business operates. 👉🏾 And I have to confess, I was really confused for many years around how things worked in business, because a lot of what I saw didn't make sense to me Sudha. It kind of left me with this frustration that a lot of what I had set my life up for, my career for, was not really proving out to be very fulfilling or meaningful, or kind of makes sense to me. And so then I stumbled into this territory of quality and it was like I'd been to the promised land and I finally found something I could kind of grab onto that kind of hung together for me, that made sense.  👉🏾 And then I learned a lot from W. Edwards Deming, and then Peter Drucker and many others. I would say in that I formed my company, Corpus Optima, some 27, 28 years ago I kind of generally would fall into the category of a management consultant. But that's kind of a misnomer because it presupposes that if you manage something well, you'll produce a great outcome, but that's not correct. 👉🏾 If you manage something well and you don't lead it, well, then you'll sub-optimise the outcome. So that kind of led me to finally this revelation that I'm not a management consultant, I'm a management and leadership consultant. And so now I see that I'm a transformist, my job, my work is to help people in organisations transform, to become all that they can be, to optimise their...

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Shownotes “I would say that this report presents a contradictory picture, which is probably a feature of this report. And this contradiction is about rich Adivasi and poor Adivasi. Rich Adivasi in terms of their world view and cultural practices, but poor Adivasi in terms of the deprivation”  The 78th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, is a follow up episode, on the first ‘Status of Adivasi Livelihoods’ (SAL) Report by PRADAN. The report based on a survey of around 5000 households from across 16 Adivasi dominated districts of Jharkhand and Odisha, paints a grim picture of Adivasis as one of the most deprived sections of Indian society.  India has several laws and constitutional provisions that recognise the rights of indigenous peoples to land and self-government. The Indian Constitution also provides for positive discrimination in employment, higher education and political representation in the Indian parliament and state assemblies. However, these positive discrimination efforts do not seem to have worked.  The big question is WHY? Who is measuring the impact of development programmes and interventions? Adivasi leaders, activists and academics believe this is because policy makers do not recognise them as different, which in turn does not allow them to define and design their own development agenda.  The main purpose of the Status of Adivasi Livelihoods report is to develop a more nuanced understanding of Adivasi livelihoods and the socio-cultural setting that shape these livelihoods, in order to evolve a better response to improve their plight. As we navigate a deeply divided world on the cusp of climate crisis, it would make sense to learn from the deep knowledge and wisdom of the Adivasis who are not a part of caste society. Adivasis possess a worldview which is different from the non-Adivasis. They do not consider themselves superior to other creatures of nature and do not believe in the accumulation of wealth and exploitation of nature for human purposes. This worldview shapes their relationship with nature and society and influences their practices including livelihoods. “Programmes and schemes for tribal communities need to align with their values of togetherness, living in harmony with nature and non-exploitative livelihood practices. That is the only way to ensure the challenges being faced by the Adivasis are addressed without compromising the Adivasi way of living.” Listen here 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Okay, thank you Sudha. So see, PRADAN has been working in this Central Indian belt for last almost four decades, 40 years. And our intervention to impact the livelihoods of Adivasis has been helpful to some extent I would say. And this has been largely due to the development of many livelihood prototypes, such as Tussar prototypes, smallholder agriculture, small enterprises, like broiler poultry farming, mushroom, all these things. 👉🏾 Now all these models were developed by taking into account the distinctive features of the region and the Adivasi households. But despite efforts of PRADAN and other similar well-meaning agencies and government, by and large Adivasis in this region, the central Indian belt have remained deprived. So this is the reason why PRADAN thought to come up with a periodic status report of Adivasi livelihood. So that organisations including government, remain periodically informed about the status of Adivasi livelihoods. That's the purpose that I would say.  👉🏾 Let me try it. If we consider the whole of India, the population of ST is 8.6%, as you mentioned. However, if we look at the states where they live, such as Jharkhand, Odissa, MP, Chhattisgarh states of Northeast, the share of the population is quite large. 👉🏾 And they're mostly living in the areas, which are rich in natural resources such as forest, coal and minerals and now this is a unique situation. Historically Adivasis were displaced from time

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Shownotes My guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast this week took the path less trodden. After a BA in History from Yale and an MBA from Judge Business School - she didn’t follow the path of her peers to investment banking but decided to pursue a career in the social sector in spite of the disapproval of family and friends.  Rachita Vora is co-founder of India Development Review. India Development Review (IDR) is India’s first and largest independent media platform for the development community. Before IDR, Rachita led the Dasra Girl Alliance, an INR 250 crore multi-stakeholder platform that sought to improve maternal, adolescent and child health outcomes in India. During our freewheeling conversation Rachita spoke about her background, privilege and education that enabled her to take a decision to work in the social sector……. 👉🏾 The ambition behind setting up IDR 👉🏾 The challenges of running a magazine for the non-profit sector in an age of 24x7 media, dwindling ad budgets 👉🏾 The big issues facing the social sector in India including dwindling pool of donor, the regulatory environment, negative perception, small talent pool, the impact of COVID 19 👉🏾 The pivotal role of the social sector in helping India meet the SDGs and its ambition to for a high growth economy 👉🏾 Collaborations between state and the sector 👉🏾 Calling out the social sector for its shortcomings and Failure Files We also spoke about future plans, existential questions, and what inspires her….. Memorable Passages from the podcast  👉🏾 Thanks Sudha. Thanks so much for having me.  👉🏾 Yeah, sure. So I've been working in the social impact space for around 16 years and if you had asked me when I was a kid, what I wanted to be when I grew up. I don't think I'd ever have imagined that this is a career choice I would've made. I grew up in an upper-middle-class family, so I grew up with a lot of privilege and a lot of opportunities. And I think because of those, I was able to attend Yale, which is really where I think the seed for wanting to work in the service of others really took root. I didn't realise it when I was there, maybe it was the kind of friends that I kept. But it was really when I moved back to India in 2007 that I began to feel very strongly that I wanted to use my education for something that was bigger than me. 👉🏾 And this was also alongside sort of at a time when there was just growing inequality and the wide income disparities, gender disparities, class disparities that I was noticing coming back to India after a while, really hit me hard. And so, I did sort of speak to a bunch of people and try to figure out where within the social impact space I could work, but then once I made the decision, there was really no looking back. And so I started working at an organisation called Swadhaar Finserve which was one of the first urban micro finance institutions in India at the time and then of course went on to work in CSR and at different kinds of organisations over the course of my career. And it's been an incredible education and reflecting on it, I don't think I'd change a thing at all because it ultimately brought me to IDR, which is a job that I absolutely love. 👉🏾 Yeah. I mean, I don't think my parents were too thrilled, honestly. A lot of my peers that graduated my class ended up working at investment banks and some of the top consulting firms in the world and then I also had friends who actually spent a year abroad teaching English in some country somewhere. 👉🏾 So I think it was definitely something that I had to convince my parents of. And it didn't help that back then in 2007, actually, I didn't really have any friends or any people that were senior to me that I knew that had chosen this as a career path. And so even sort of figuring it out took a little bit of time. But honestly, I think once I knew it felt like a call, and once I knew that this is what I wanted to do, it was...

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“And it is really hard, I think, especially when imposter syndrome sort of plays on your mind saying, do I deserve to be so audacious with my dreams. And actually, for some time, I think I used to say the right thing, so I used to say that I'm playing a go big strategy, but when it came to actually making decisions, I would take a slightly safer route. And in fact an investor actually called me out on it and he said, you know, you're saying you want to go big, but your dreams do seem to be limited by some sense of restraint in your own mind.” Across the world women’s participation in labour fell dramatically during the pandemic and India was no different. Except that numbers of women in the workforce had been steadily declining since 2010.  Women entrepreneurs fair no better in the country - just 14% of women own or run businesses(IMF2019). So, it is no great surprise that women account for just 17% of GDP in India, less than half the global average.  The barriers to entry for women are numerous - socio-cultural expectations, risk aversion, unequal access to finance and collateral, absence of support networks …. The list is endless. So, it is always good to meet with women who step out of their comfort zone to make their dreams come alive. In this case, it is my guest Anusha Bhushan, a young entrepreneur who left her career in investment banking to set up a wellness beverage brand Smoodies.  In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast we talk about her journey to becoming an entrepreneur,  👉🏾 Overthinking and overcoming the Imposter syndrome 👉🏾 Her commitment to building a clean labeled, sustainable business 👉🏾 The unique challenges faced by female entrepreneurs 👉🏾 The highs and lows of running a business 👉🏾 Support networks and mentors 👉🏾 Learnings from running a sustainable wellness brand 👉🏾 Her advice to aspiring female entrepreneurs To know more listen here 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable Passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Morning, Sudha. Thank you so much, a pleasure to be here.  👉🏾Sure. I actually find this question very hard to answer, still discovering it. But no to answer it accurately by trade I'm a food and beverages entrepreneur based out of India. I run a fruit-based beverages brand called Smoodies, so I've been running this for the last six years. Before, which I spent some time in management consulting and in investment banking across both Mumbai and London. 👉🏾 I did my MBA from, IIM Calcutta, and I have an economics degree from the London School of Economics. Both degrees were quite some time ago. And personally, I'm a pet parent, have been for around two years now and it's a fairly big part of my life. I'm very passionate about sort of clean label nutrition and that feeds into what I do at work. I'm beginning to learn a lot more about climate change as well, and I like to spend time, educating myself around sort of what we can do as a business as well, and of course how that feeds into my personal life as well.  👉🏾 So my first job coming out of LSE was in investment banking that was in London. So, you know, I did the mandatory, the analyst years in an investment bank and a couple of years down the line, I think I just realised that there were two things that were missing for me. One, I didn't really want to do banking long term, and I wanted a career in India, that was important to me for a number of different reasons. I think family, of course, was something that I always knew I wanted to make it back to India for eventually. But you know the murmurings of entrepreneurship in India had started around then this is, maybe around 2011 or so. And the idea of sort of eventually starting a business in India at some point was sort of seeded in my mind. 👉🏾 So, I moved back, I said, let me move back and there are a lot of different things that I could do. I was figuring out business school and so I took a break, and I moved back with a...

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Shownotes: For the 6th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast in partnership with India Justice Report - we focused on the overburdened Indian prisons. For a very long time India’s prison system has been known for overcrowding, unhygienic conditions and the disproportionate number of under trials in the prison population.  The covid-19 pandemic led the Indian Supreme Court to issue directions to the High Court for decongestion of prisons in order to prevent the outbreak of the epidemic in closed spaces. The court directed the constitution of High-Powered Committees (HPCs) at state-levels to oversee the decongestion efforts, while also directing the Under trial Review Committees (UTRC), a district-level body mandated to review cases of prisoners, to meet every week.  However, despite several measures to decongest prisons overcrowding has remained a serious issue, along with a shortage of staff and medical officers. The level of vacancies at the National level means 1 in every three posts has not been filled When we were thinking of the focus for this episode - it was about culling out lessons from the pandemic. Lessons that could help support the drive to sustainably decongest Indian prisons. Is it training for the police to prevent indiscriminate arrests, or is it giving more power to the prison authorities to refuse to intake a prison when maximum sustainable number have been reached? It was also about understanding whether magistrates who know the conditions of local prisons shape their remand powers to ensure that there is no overcrowding.  What is the role of legal aid in solving this problem?  Most importantly, central to the conversations is the role of multiple stakeholders - whose actions and frequent inactions contribute to the overcrowding. How can they be corrected and made accountable, what processes and systems need to be put into place to enable positive action.  I was privileged to speak with Justice Madan B Lokur, a former judge of Supreme Court of India and Sugandha Mathur from the Human Rights Initiative to get their insights on progressing the agenda of prison reform. Thank you Maja and Valay for your support and insights.  Memorable Passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Yes. You see, in my view, the process of decongestion has not been very successful either before COVID or during COVID. It's okay to say that, you know, 8,000 people were released, but out of those 8,000 how many of them actually came back, that is one. Number two, on what basis did you decide to reject the application for release of some of those people? So theoretically it's possible that 15,000 people could have been released and even this 15,000 is not a particularly large number considering the inmates that we have. 👉🏾 But I think the administration should have been far more proactive and should have taken steps to release as many of them as possible. The idea was that COVID should not strike other prisoners. Now, what is the point of just releasing a handful people and say, well, it's not going to strike the others. 👉🏾 Frankly I don't think that makes too much of sense. So if you ask me on a scale of one to 10, I would just say about maybe 4 out of 10. 👉🏾 On a scale of 1 to 10 I mean, I would agree with Justice Lokur and I would probably say 5. So there was clearly an effort that we could see in different states if not in all states and union territories. But at least in some states, there was this coordinated effort where the judiciary, the prison department, the legal services institutions, everyone came together. 👉🏾 I think for the first time the coordinated effort that we keep talking about, this actually happened in few states. However, the effort was neither constant and not uniform and because of that, as Justice Lokur was saying that the impact could have been more, could have been better and, you know, it could have benefited more prisoners, but unfortunately,...

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Shownotes:  My guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast this week is Liz Sweigart, PhD Chief Product & Strategy Officer, Safe Kids AI. Liz serves on several boards, is a frequent author and speaker on mental wellness and mental health.  In the episode we explore leaders, leadership, conscious, moral, ethical, moral leadership. We also spoke about her journey to discovering who she is and separating that from what she does.  👉🏾 The imperatives for leaders to lead differently 👉🏾 What it means to be an authentic leader - eliminating the gap between who they are and how they present themselves to the world 👉🏾 Conscious leadership 👉🏾 The concept of the leader as a moral integrator 👉🏾 The inherent contradiction between moral leadership and capitalism as we know it. 👉🏾 The double bind for leaders in today’s world to deliver returns for shareholders and their obligation (as perceived by society) to act ethically and in the wider interests of society 👉🏾 Female leaders and trust We also spoke about the people who inspire her.  “And where I think that leads into this whole question of leadership, is how is the view in the world changing, around who it is, again when the music stops, who it is that deserves these returns. And so I think leaders are being pressed to negotiate between this evolving view of shareholder capitalism, this evolving view of stakeholder capitalism.” Liz Sweigart

Memorable Passages from the episode:  👉🏾 Good morning and good afternoon, good evening and I guess good night, depending on where you are and when you're listening to this.  👉🏾 Well, I appreciate the opportunity and I am thrilled to get a chance to visit with you.  👉🏾 Oh, okay. Wait, how long did you say we had?  👉🏾 That's actually a really beautiful question for me because I've spent a lot of time in therapy actually exploring that. As some people listening may know, if you did any sort of light internet stalking on me, I'm very public about my journey with mental health, specifically with depression and with O C D, obsessive compulsive disorder. 👉🏾 And one of the things that I had to do in therapy in the last several years is to really engage with the question of, who am I? I got to a point in November of 2019 where I was suicidal and it was in large measure because I really had no idea who I was. And I didn't have really any anchor points as a result, I was completely unmoored. And so I have spent quite a bit of time in therapy and on my own trying to understand who am I.  👉🏾 And here's what I've come to. I am a person who loves connection, I am someone who loves meeting new people, I am someone who loves bringing people together around a purpose, which is one of the reasons why I was excited to talk with you and to join The Elephant in The Room today. Because for me, I have found that I am a wanderer, I love to journey and explore and adventure. I am a thinker, I like to sit and think, and I like to engage with others, I like to connect with other people.  👉🏾 So that is who I am and then there are things that I do. And the biggest lesson for me, I think in all of this was separating who I am from what I do. My answer to who are you used to be, essentially my name, rank and serial number, it was my title, it was my job. And then when I realised maybe that was the wrong answer, then it was my other jobs, it wasn't my professional career. It was, oh well, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm a daughter, I'm a sister. 👉🏾 And that actually still isn't who I am, those are roles that I play and those are things that I do. So I am all of those things and more. But figuring out who I am, began with what is it that motivates me, and then what do I feel is my purpose? And my purpose is to foster environments where human beings can flourish and bring people together in those environments where we can solve problems and we can be generative toward one...

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Shownotes:  What do people think of as they are coming to the end of their college/University degree? The future, a new life, new job, new friends, travel, and new adventures. And most people step into this beautiful but messy world full of hopes and dreams.   My guest this week on The Elephant in the Room podcast Ruchika Singh, had to press pause on the life she was looking forward to when she fell ill suddenly during exams in the last year of her engineering degree. Life ground to a halt as she was diagnosed with CNS Tuberculosis Meningitis. It meant fighting to survive and catastrophically losing vision as a side effect. The road to recovery has been a nearly decade long uphill battle and the social stigma and pressure has delayed her entry back into the life she dreamt for herself. In spite of having one the highest percentage of people with visual impairment in the world - India is woefully ill prepared with the requisite training, support, job opportunities, networks, infrastructure, accessibility to enable people to live a normal life - a life that most of us take for granted. There are systemic barriers to inclusion for people with disability, including lack of knowledge about visual impairment and outdated attitudes/perceptions amongst most people and potential employers.  Stigma around any form of disability means millions of Indians are hidden, have no voice, no power and no decision making authority. Other people decide for them, choose for them, what they can or cannot do, about their passions and abilities - they are robbed of their identity. The struggle is everyday, to compromise on what you believe you can do and the reality of what you are able to do. Ruchika has not given up her ambition to have a fulfilling career. Like she says, ‘In another life. I may have joined some tech firm after completing my engineering. I deserve an opportunity to have a career and a fulfilling life.’ Ever the optimist - she is dismayed by the lack of support from corporate India. Her attempt at employment in the behemoth that is the Indian tech Industry has been deeply demotivating and demoralising. - lack of response, zero engagement and an attempt to obfuscate on what disability actually means for the companies. She has a question for global and Indian tech companies - why talk about inclusion when you are not inclusive. And what use is technology innovation when it cannot enable her to live a better quality of life.   Every person deserves to be able to live life to their fullest potential - what can we do to make the world more inclusive for people who do not conform to what is considered the norm. I know Ruchika is brilliant, smart, intelligent, well read, ambitious - her visual impairment should not become a barrier to living the life she wants. And I am here ask - @Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Infosys, HCL, IBM, Dell, CISCO, TCS, Accenture, Wipro - what does inclusion mean to you?? It is time to show up and be counted - move beyond the tick-box. “I am going to keep trying on every day to live the life which I wanted to and which I deserve to. And you know, I'm not my disability, I'm smart, intelligent, and capable” Full disclosure - I know Ruchika since she was a child (she is a part of my extended family Memorable passages from the episode: 👉🏾 Thank you. Thanks a lot for inviting me  👉🏾 Let me tell you about Ruchika. I was a very normal girl, who loved dancing, singing, styling, reading. And hailed from a tier 2 city of India. I also followed a very normal and very standard career path, as many youngster in India, choosing science as a mainstream and then opting for engineering. Everything was very normal until in final year of my engineering, my life took a sudden turn and I got diagnosed with, you know, CNS TB, Central Nervous System, Tuberculosis Meningitis in December 2012. I had to drop out of college and I was in treatment for several years and in the process I lost my...

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Shownotes: The core purpose of the partnership between The Purpose Room and The India Justice Report is about helping raise awareness and understanding of the Indian justice system and also getting ordinary citizens to understand, be aware and curious about the justice system. The aim of course is to discuss how the delivery of quality justice must be seen as a priority and become real in the lives of everyone.  In the first episode https://www.linkedin.com/in/ACoAAAOmvuEBtehNoyZvTHIHSX-p-dHGwaJc1AQ (Maja Daruwala), Chief Editor of the India Justice Report, and a barrister from Lincolns Inn and Valay Singh, Project Lead of the @India Justice Report spoke about the purpose behind India's first ever ranking of states on their capacity to deliver justice and what that means Episode two with https://www.linkedin.com/in/ACoAAAR4od8Bei-wE26mdjlDFZ-VjB8ppZVCkD0 (Surya Prakash B S) https://www.linkedin.com/company/daksh/ (DAKSH) a civil society organisation working on judicial reforms and https://www.linkedin.com/in/ACoAABrNiTsBgqCAH7LWZYwM7KJvkoPzANIFnwI (Radhika Jha), a lead researcher for the Status of Policing in India Report series from https://www.linkedin.com/company/common-cause/ (Common Cause) focused on on budgeting in the justice system, the availability of funds, underutilisation, prioritisation or lack of it, access to justice, the quality of justice and more… The third episode focuses on the status of women in policing in India. My guests https://www.linkedin.com/in/ACoAAAEC2nAB-J0mhwcoOmmBzrkWbRBVUeufzdI (Meeran Chadha Borwankar) and Devika Prasad spoke about the systemic issues that hold women back, and what actions can be taken to reach the target numbers.  In episode four Jacob Punnose ex-DGP and State Police Chief of Kerala and Jayanto Choudhury ex-DG NSG and ex-DGP Assam Police talk about the systemic issues that ail India policing - conditions of work; budgets; internal culture; accountability; public perception etc. This week my guests Prof Murali karnam, a research scholar on Prison Reforms and Penology and Mr Somesh Goyal, Former dg Himachal Police and former Director General of (Prisons) speak about what can be done a) to make the administration of prisons stronger so that prisons are not places of violence and violation of rights b) what needs to be done to - to turn prison administration away from the warder-lockup-control-punishment mode to that of genuine reform and rehabilitation of prisoners. Whether it is the UK or India it is important that all of us understand the contours of the system that governs us and not just for the sake of accountability! Listen to this episode and catch up with previous episodes here👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Thank you. Mr. Goyal, Professor Karnam, Maya and Vallay for making time to be here today for the third in our series on prisons where today we are talking about strengthening prison administration. So thank you very much for making time today. And we'll get started with the questions right away. So, considering the background that we've spoken about, how are prisons in India regulated? Do states have their own prison manuals or is there a common manual for all states to follow?  👉🏾 Well, so far as the regulation of prisons is concerned, I think there are several acts like the prison act, prisoners act, prisoners identification act, temporary release of prisoners act and so on. 👉🏾 But day to day functioning of the prisons is largely governed by the prison manuals, which are very old. And there is no common prison manual as such for the whole of the country. In 2016, one model prison manual has been suggested xxxxx, and prisons being a state subject, most of the states have their own prison manuals . Few states that have adopted the model prison manual, and tailored it to suit the local requirements. I think this manual is far too elaborate, one, and you know, one...

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Shownotes The language we use often reflects the widely accepted socio-cultural values, norms, and beliefs that society holds, including roles men/women and non binary people play. For as long as we know language has been used to undermine people making them seem less competent, confident and places an expectations on what people can aspire too. The constant use of such language reinforces assumptions.  

E.g. Assumptions that all members of a category (Director) share a gender or that all members of a gender share a characteristic (women prefer to look after children)  E.g. Using gendered pronouns/nouns when you don’t know the gender or using he/him/man as the default 

However, language can also be used as powerful tool to help reshape culture and challenge stereotypes. In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with Parijat Ghosh and Souparno Chatterjee from PRADAN on the journey and learnings from the past 10 months to building a more equitable and inclusive organisation. 

I am super proud to have been invited by PRADAN to support the organisations in unravelling the layers and discovering who they are as an organisation and the gap that exists with who they aspire to be. In the last 10 months, I have run numerous workshops, listening exercises, audits, and had people share 100s of examples on how our culture, upbringing, the books we read, the movies we see, our lived experiences colour our usage of language. 

We are nearly at the end of the discovery phase, the next phase will be about mindfulness, and putting all the learning into action - in how we use language to engage with our peer group, with teams, with people on the field, the communities we work with, donors, governments, in the manner in which we write our reports. The measure of success is not that everyone will suddenly be inclusive, but that most people are conscious of the impact of their words, are willing to learn and build an inclusive organisation. 

And most importantly it is important to remember that language is not static, it changes and evolves every single day; like it has done since the start of spoken language many moons ago. 

Want to know more about the why and what of the gender sensitive communications initiative at PRADAN - listen here 👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable passages from the transcript 👉🏾 Thank you so much Sudha for inviting us.  👉🏾Good morning Sudha. And thanks for bringing us here and it's a great opportunity to speak with you on this initiative that we have started in the organisation. So looking forward to the conversation.  👉🏾I am Parijat, presently I work with PRADANs research and advocacy team. And as far as my interest are is concerned, I am interested in Adivasi livelihood because we are working ound the questions related to Adivasi livelihood, I'm also interested in the subject of gender equality both within the community, with whom we work and also within the organisation. 👉🏾 I am also a member of the steering group that is integrating PRADANs initiative towards making the workplace better for women as of now and I'm hoping that it will talk more about inclusiveness.  👉🏾 I joined as a development apprentice and after a brief stint, I joined the operations unit. And since 2013, I started working in communications and ever since I've been communicating about PRADAN. I love communicating about PRADAN.  👉🏾 Let me first start with how PRADAN embarked on the journey, why PRADAN took up this whole initiative, not only the gender-sensitive communication but the whole initiative of making PRADAN a better place for women,. So the skewed percentage of women actually has been a concern in PRADAN for a very long time. So I joined in 2004, and since then in almost every annual retreat, this issue was highlighted. And finally in 2014, that then formally instituted a scoping study to understand the...

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Shownotes:  It is phenomenal to meet with women who refuse to conform to stereotypes, are not averse to risks and are very confident of the space they occupy (or seek to occupy).  As a Black, Arab, female founder of an ESG Consultancy Communique Gihan wants to use her skills to work on what she is passionate about, challenging stereotypes is not why she does what she does. Was it necessary or important to mention her race/ethnicity instead of just talking about her expertise? Yes it is…..because people from diverse backgrounds are still not recognised for their capabilities but are more likely to be rejected for what they look like or sound like. It is widely recognised that ‘racism’ is an ESG problem but the bigger problem is that there is very little diversity amongst the ESG fraternity - the people who advise on ESG (Technical or communications). So, It is great to see Gihan carve out her own space as an ESG evangelist.  In the episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast we spoke about her journey to ESG, the meaning of S in ESG, the importance of ESG for business, why stakeholders should ask for it, triple top line, social impact, skills for communicators and the people who inspire her.  Memorable Passages from the Podcast:  👉🏾 Thank you, Sudha for having me. What a pleasure. I've been such a fan of your podcast so it is surreal that I'm in it right now. So thank you. 👉🏾 So hi everyone, I'm Gihan and I'm originally from Sudan, however, I am based in the UK at the moment. If I am to introduce myself from a human point of view, I am known amongst my friends and peers to be very curious, very bold and very, how do I say it......? Courageous, if that makes sense. I am a risk taker by nature and I am not scared of trying new things. Other than known for these three traits, I am also the founder and CEO of a consultancy called CommUnique. We are an environmental, social and governance, in other words, ESG consultancy. We specialise in ESG communications and ESG business model reshaping. 👉🏾 Our job and our purpose, if you may, is to help you all, who wants to navigate the world of ESG, which is going to be the new reality to help you to do it in a very easy way, and a very simple way, but that would result in the most impactful way as well.  👉🏾 Okay, before I say anything about the, why did I do that, I will tell you more about, when did I do that? How about that? Let's start with that. So yes you're absolutely correct. I do have 20 years under my belt when it comes to marketing and internal communications roles. In the majority of the roles, I was always the lead in the department in doing all of these change projects, whether it was with HSBC, Barclays, BP, for example, Phillip Morris, the WHO and the list goes on. 👉🏾 But then when the pandemic hit, I was angry I got really angry. Angry with myself, angry with my peers and angry with the society that I'm living in the UK and the employers as well. The reason I was angry is because… so as I said, I am from Sudan and I am married to someone whose job requires us to leave the UK every three years and then come back to it. 👉🏾 So it was extremely difficult to find roles when I came back to the UK, despite the fact that I've always worked in multi global organisations when I was abroad. But the UK employers just didn't see it as a positive move and instead they couldn't put me in a box, so I was never able to be placed in a box. 👉🏾 So when COVID hit, I faced the same problem. Employers wanted to put me in the box, but they didn't know how. I have a marketing background with PR work involved and internal communication. So they didn't know which box they should put me in. So that made me super angry. The other thing as well, is the beauty of the UK is that it has the most intelligent communication professionals you will find the world, it's a small community. And if you disappear from the community for a couple of years,...

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Shownotes “Policing is a service to the citizen, when citizen needs the policemen, the policemen should be there at the police station. This is the responsibility of a democratically elected government, this is a guarantee given under the constitution to protect the life and property of every citizen.” Maintaining law and order is a state subject in India. This means that each of India’s 28 states has the responsibility to ensure an effective and efficient police force that ensures the safety and security of all. Though all states have their own laws all of them are modelled on the Police Act of 1861. This was designed to: control a subject population; isolate the police from the public and obey the orders of the rulers of the day rather than protect the rule of law.  The question is, is this the model we want to keep 75 years after independence and if not what can be done to change it. √ Public perception of police is at an all time low √ Police forces in India (both central and state) are short staffed √ India, the second-most populous nation in the world, has amongst the lowest global police to population ratios at 158 for 100,000. This is inadequate when compared to UN recommendations on 222 personnel per lakh √ Police personnel work long hours without weekly offs, heavy work load, inadequate training √ Constables constitute 86% of the police forces and they are generally promoted only once in their career resulting in lack of motivation There is a difference between the police that we have and the police we need. Experts are clear that policing has to change from merely maintaining law and order and preventing crime to being one that is a first responder in creating a public environment in which all can enjoy every right to the fullest within the framework of rule of law.  In the 4th episode of the podcast Jacob Punnose ex-DGP and State Police Chief of Kerala and Jayanto Choudhury ex-DG NSG and ex-DGP Assam Police talk about the systemic issues that ail India policing - the conditions of work; budgets; internal culture; accountability; public perception …….. Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Well that's a very interesting subject you brought up, and I think we'll take it one by one. And you have listed several questions, let us first start with working conditions. In most states, you have the armed police and you have the civil police. The armed police is over deployed and it's under equipped, they normally have to handle public order situations, and the civil police are understaffed and very thinly spread, in most states. There are some states like Tamil Nadu which have a very, very good spread of police stations, but most states and maybe Kerala as well, but most states, and I'm talking by my experience in the east, whether it's Bengal or whether it's a Assam, that is the situation. 👉🏾 Now hygiene factors are poor, the police to population ratio is inadequate and accommodation provided to police personnel again, there's a shortage and it's substandard. Now if you can improve these and ensure off duty time, you will actually reduce the stressors that impact on behaviour of individuals in the police force. Burnout and even post traumatic stress disorder, these are occupational hazards in field policing.  👉🏾 You know a 14, 16 hour day without a weekly off, is quite normal, and working on festivals and holidays is a must. In terms of structure, I'm only now looking at civil police, because they are the people in the police stations, theres one civil police, for every 14 to 1500 of the population; that's against 1 is to 500 in the U S. And in India, the role of the police is far, far wider than what is expected from a police officer in western countries. In the US they spend about 350 USD, US dollars per capita on police. In India, we spend about US dollar one, and we still continue with the cheap model of a colonial policing. You must remember that when we were a colony,...

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Shownotes What makes a good leader? Who is a good leader? Are women better leaders? What or who shapes our leadership styles? Why do women continue to be underrepresented at the C-Suite level across the world? These are some of the questions I have been asking my guests on The Elephant in the Room podcast - in an attempt to demystify leadership and what it means because it means different things to different people. For the 68th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with Roma Balwani a strategic communications advisor, an Independent Board Director at John Cockerill and former President of Communications at the Vedanta Group.  In 2021, in India just 4.7% of the CEOs are female (slight increase from 2018) and there has been a decline in the number of women board Chairs. The regulatory requirement for listed company’s to have women on boards, has definitely helped increase the number of women directors board numbers (2021 - 17.1% up from 9.4 in 2014). But, women leaders in India are decades away from any kind of parity in the C-Suite or at the Board level. In this episode I spoke with Roma about her journey, the challenges, opportunities and mentors who helped her build and progress her career. We also spoke about leadership, women and their leadership styles; barriers to women in leadership in India; challenges facing leaders in an ever changing world; the skills aspiring women leaders should focus on; people who inspire her………. Listen on any of your favourite podcast platforms. Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Morning Sudha, I'm really delighted to be invited to share some of my personal stories of my checkered career in your podcast. 👉🏾 Sure. So I have been the President of the Vedanta Group for almost seven to eight years, and just recently moved into an advisory role as a communication specialist. I was looking after brand and communications at the Vedanta Group. Prior to that, I was also the EVP and Chief communications officer at the Mahindra Group for communications. So both these have been very large part of my career and of course, the career, as I said, is checkered because I've dabbled in many things which are to do with creativity.  👉🏾 So I've been a creative consultant in the past. I have also lived in Norway and worked as a communication specialist there as well. My education has been largely in Mumbai. I've been an economics and political science graduate from a leading college in Mumbai, from Bombay University, as well as done my post-grad in Marketing from Bombay University. And then generally we have been very well exposed to executive education at the Harvard business school as the Michigan Ross school of management, so those have been very insightful leadership training that I have received.  👉🏾 I have over more than three decades of experience as a communications specialist, but frankly, my career in PR started, it was a chance which I took on at the time when I was not a PR specialist. I was a marketing communications manager in a computer education company, which was a very small company at that time. It was just a 500 crore company led by Ganesh Natrajan, and he offered me that role. And I said, I don't think I'm really suited for it because I'm very candid, outspoken, and he said, you know, Roma, that is your speciality and that will hold you in good stead in this profile as well. I said, well, I'm willing to try, but I'm not sure whether I'm a perfect fit for it, but frankly, I think he felt that I could do it more than I could, and I don't think I've looked back since then. And I guess he was right.  👉🏾 Honestly though back then they were only stereotype roles for women. So I started my career and grew in a company called Larsen & Turbo, it is one of the largest manufacturing company, you must be have heard of them. And I actually joined them when I was studying and I was in my college and I grew from the ranks over there. And it was a

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Shownotes The third episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast in partnership with the India Justice Report focuses on the status of women in policing in India. Despite the target set by the Indian Home Ministry in 2009 to achieve 33% women in the police force - representation has increased by a mere 5% in a decade. While many states have mandated 10% to 33% reservation for women in the police, not one of these States has met its goal. With one woman in every four police officials, the state of Bihar has emerged as the unlikely champion and the best performing state across India. With just 215000 women, just over 10% of Indian police is female. The share of women among the higher ranks is even lower at 8.7%.  A significant share of policewomen suffer due to patriarchal prejudices, strong masculine work culture and are considered unfit for on-field tasks. Women personnel are usually limited to in-house tasks such as maintaining registers/data, filing FIRs and other complaints, whereas male police officers are engaged in more field-based tasks such as investigation, patrolling, law and order duties, etc. Most stations also lack basic infrastructure such as separate toilets , creche, changing rooms for women. In this fascinating and eye-opening conversation my guests Meeran Chadha Borwankar and Device Prasad talk about the systemic issues that hold women back, and what actions can be taken to reach the target numbers.  👉🏾 What can be done to help creating a more inclusive culture where women can thrive 👉🏾 Reasons why women in police are clustered at the bottom, and what can be done to promote their rise through the ranks 👉🏾 What states can do to attract and retain women and meet the target 33% 👉🏾 The politics of it In a recent article Meeran Borwankar slammed the demand for all women police stations as a panacea to pervasive challenges.  “An officer commented that they “compartmentalise women officers rather than give them the independence of work”. It is “a step in the reverse direction” because women officers are interested in all kinds of police work, not just in women-related matters.” 

Memorable Passages from the episode 👉🏾 Thanks for having me here Sudha.  👉🏾Thank you Sudha.  👉🏾 Sudha that the current ratio I would say is around 10% plus of the women in police, so we are gradually moving towards achievable target of 33%. But instead of having exclusive recruitment for women, every year, most of the states earmark 33% quota. So that is the reason why the upward movement is slow, but certain states like Bihar went in for exclusive recruitment for women in police. And Bihar, it may surprise most of our listeners, today has about 25% of women. So I don't see a reluctance on part of the women to join police anymore, it was there in eighties and nineties, this century the department has opened its arms for women and they have accepted it. So if we don't have exclusive recruitments, this would be a slow process but if like Bihar, even Himachal today has 19% women, if more than the 30% are recruited every year, then we will reach this target earlier.  👉🏾 Yeah, so just taking from what Meeran ma'am says, the startling rise of Bihar was actually, it went from 7% to 25% women in a space of five years - 2015 to 2019. So I think studying that experience, breaking it down, finding out how did the department do it, what were the ground measures taken, what were the policy measures on recruitment taken? That in itself would be a big eye-opening exercise to understand practically how a police department raised its numbers in recruitment so sharply. So I think it's a good example and it's really encouraging that there are examples like this. Himachal also has seen a rise over this five-year period, Gujarat also jumped from 4% to 12% in the space of five years. So in fact, I think we are seeing increased recruitment of women into the police and so again this...

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Shownotes:  CBE, Founder of Socially Mobile, Future Proof and several other initiatives to build a better industry. Sarah Waddington, CBE had the foresight to launch her purpose driven management consultancy a decade before others started talking about Purpose. In this episode I spoke to her about journey 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 The importance of shared values for great results and purpose being a commercial imperative in today’s world 👉🏾 What PR practitioners can do to remaining relevant as advisers to the C-suite in a world of flux 👉🏾 #FutureProof and the three things we need to plan for to FutureProof the industry 👉🏾 What good leadership looks like, how women lead 👉🏾 Addressing the the gender/ethnicity gap in leadership in the industry 👉🏾 The vision behind ‘Socially Mobile’ and her aspiration for it And last but not the least what the Elephant in the Room is for her “From a leadership perspective the elephant in the room is when people won't recognise or acknowledge their own weaknesses. I'm a flawed leader, I think we all are, there's very few people that I would look at and go they're the full 360 thing. But I know I've made mistakes and I'm human, my intention, I like to think is always right. I always want to learn and I think that's the other elephant in the room, just sometimes knowing you don't know the full picture and back to what you said earlier, when we need to listen better, all of us need to listen better.” What is the Elephant in the Room for you?  Listen more here…. Memorable Passages from the podcast: 👉🏾 Thank you so much for inviting me, I'm so delighted to be speaking to you today.  👉🏾 Thank you for the lovely congratulations. I actually have my investiture in July, so I've got something very exciting to look forward to. And, you say since that news and being able to use that to launch Socially Mobile been quite a special time for me so I'm very grateful for all of that that's been happening. Where to start in terms of starting my own consultancy, well I did a French and media degree, loved it. And in my final year, I was lucky to do an internship and I went to a PR company and the rest is history shall we say. Came back to the Northeast, went into PR agency, then wanted to widen my expertise and went to PR marketing agency, developed my marketing knowledge through an MA and kept my CPD up. And ultimately I got to a stage in my career where I was running three offices for a group up in the north. 👉🏾 And the recession hits, this was about 13 years ago, and I suddenly sensed an opportunity, I was doing less of the day-to-day stuff and I was missing it. And then I had clients who wanted to work with me and weren't getting me but also didn't want or couldn't afford anymore to have agencies with big operational costs, they wanted the consultancy direct. So that's when I actually set up my own company and didn't really look back. And I was really fortunate that back at that time, I did something which was quite innovative in terms of business model, I actually set ourselves up as a remote working agency. And that seems very commonplace now because of the pandemic. But pretty much the first of my kind and I could only do that really because a lot of the private sector and blue-chip companies that I'd worked with, were doing the same and it just became much more acceptable.  👉🏾 So I started there and then as we grew I started to be really interested in the idea of a purpose and social capital. And that's what we started to build the agency around. We wanted to only be working with organisations that were doing good in their local communities. And so that became a key strategy for us in terms of we wanted to do good and therefore the organisations we were working with had to do the same. Through that, as we were advising on purpose, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx there's was an opportunity in terms of the management consultancy. And at the same time, I was working with the...

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LinkedIn How often have you complained about the homogeneity of panels at conferences; teams at client pitches; leadership teams in organisations? My personal experiences over the past decade have strengthened my belief that it is not just important to have representation, equally important is visibility. Visibility that can help to create recognition about diverse leadership and make it the norm rather than the exception. So, I committed to spotlighting and showcasing women leaders from across geographies, leaders who transcend barriers of race, ethnicity, religion, socio-economic, disability, neurodiversity on The Elephant in the Room podcast. And also explore the evolving definition and what it means to different people.  Sophie Standke, International Diversity & Inclusion Lead, Beam Suntory is one such leader, passionate about helping create a more inclusive and equitable organisation. In this episode we spoke about  👉🏾 About being stuck, lack of progress and the realisation that not everyone had access to the same opportunities 👉🏾 Recognition that there are different realities, being heard and being taken seriously 👉🏾 Strategies to dealing with the imposter syndrome, fitting in and the importance of values match 👉🏾 Passion and purpose, leadership mindset, changing the leadership paradigm  👉🏾 Leading in a post pandemic world with flexibility and empathy 👉🏾 The importance of acknowledging the systemic barriers and meeting people where they are, rather than a one size fits all solution 👉🏾 Building an inclusive culture where everyone can thrive “I think being genuinely valued and respected involves more than just being included or feel like you're fitting in. It really involves the power to help set the agenda to help make decisions on how and what work is being done and to have your interests being taken into account. And then in the end, being recognised, for your contributions and being given opportunities to advance. And that's when you see you're actually welcomed in an organisation.” Who are the leaders you admire and would like to spotlight? Shownotes Memorable passages from the episode 👉🏾 Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me Sudha, it's my pleasure and I'm very excited to be speaking with you today.  👉🏾 Well, I grew up in Germany and in East Berlin. So growing up, I always felt a sense of division actually in my own country and even felt that after the wall came down. I always was curious though about what was happening outside of Germany, what was happening in the world. Because I never felt a true sense of belonging, I always felt a bit different. 👉🏾 For example, I don't really identify myself or limit myself to just one country; instead, I'm more curious about what can I learn from other cultures. So for me, it was very clear actually at a very early age that I wanted to have a deeper experience and enjoy the complexities of life that you get from other countries and other cultures. And I had the opportunity to attend an international school in Germany, where classes were taught in English and where I met many students from around the world. And then right after school, right after I passed my A-levels, I actually spent seven months in France where I worked at the bar and I learned French and it was the first time I worked and lived and surrounded by a different language. And I really had one of my most enriching moments there, I have to say. I then came back to Germany and I went on to study languages and business administration, not really knowing what I wanted to do, but I was always guided by my curiosity to experience different cultures. 👉🏾 So what I did, I applied for many different jobs all over the world, and I finally got the opportunity to go to London, where I then started my career in FMCG marketing. And then five years ago, I joined in London, also Beam Suntory, which is a global premium...

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Shownotes It is the holy month of Ramadan (Ramazan) for millions of muslims across the world - a time of fasting, prayer and reflection. My memories of Ramadan(from India) are all about food (Iftar) and sweet sewai. Earlier this week I caught up Uzma Lodhi to hear her thoughts on Ramadan, what it means to her and how important it is for her personal identity, We also spoke about….. 👉🏾 Childhood memories of waking up for sehri with her siblings 👉🏾 The tendency to generalise, to treat communities as monoliths because it is easier to stereotype than not.  👉🏾 Supportive managers and organisations 👉🏾 What organisations can do to support employees 👉🏾 What you should not be doing to create discomfort for your muslim colleagues 👉🏾 Some advise for those fasting for the first time at work 👉🏾 We also briefly touched on navigating Ramadan in a multi-faith household.  For Uzma, Ramadan is an uplifting, joyous time about achieving her inner zen, reflection, gratitude, and clarity. Thank you Uzma for the conversation.  What does Ramadan mean to you and what are your memories of it?   Memorable passages from the episode:  👉🏾 Very excited to be here. I'm director of internal comms that APCO worldwide, I've been here for three and a half years with a focus on employer brand strategy and we're at the beginning of Ramadan, so this is a great time to have this conversation.  👉🏾 What does it mean to me? What does it mean to religion first? First of all, why do Muslims fast? They do it because it is one of the five pillars that Muslims follow. So within that, it's one of the five core pillars and it’s core to the identity of being a Muslim. 👉🏾 Why do I do it? I think I've been doing it since I was a child, but that's not the reason why I do it now. I do it now because it helps me achieve kind of mental clarity and practice humility on an everyday basis. This is a month where I push myself to have a moment of Zen and tranquillity and think about what's important and I think about how grateful I am for everything that I have, that I've achieved and how to help others at this time. Normally I'm very chatty and very loud but it actually for Ramadan it is a moment to kind of take a moment to stop and breathe and that's why I do it. It's a peaceful month and I look forward to it to help me achieve that level of peace I need.  👉🏾 Absolutely, I have these great childhood memories and we could spend an entire kind of two-hour podcast just talking about childhood memories and how amazing Ramadan is. All of us waking up and all of us going down the stairs in our pyjamas at 3:00 AM at that point in the year when we were children doing the fasting. All of us there, my mom cooking breakfast for us and just all arguing, being tired with each other, but doing it because we know we're going to do it, you know, and then eating together when it's Iftar and it's just the most amazing.......... Which is what I aspire to, which is what I want our kids to have those kind of memories. And it's also kind of a form team building as kids, you go through it together. I loved it, it's such an amazing time. And even now at my age, I wake up and there's a group chat with our family and it's the only group chat you're going to have that's completely going full-on at 4:30 in the morning because they're the only people awake, they're the only people that know what you do eating breakfast and, it's perfect yeah I really enjoy it. 👉🏾 No, so experience in working organisations in the UK and in Belgium and I think I've been quite fortunate. I will say that I think I've been quite fortunate in the organisations I've worked in, where they've all shown quite a lot of respect and awareness. And if they haven't shown awareness it's because they purely don't know. So I've had to go in there and educate them and inform them of this has when Iftar is, this has when sehri is. I might be a bit tired in the mornings, but

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Shownotes: Becky Cho, Head of Corporate Affairs at VFC, APAC is my guest on of The Elephant in the Room podcast this week. Becky has lived and worked across countries and continents and did not take the traditional route into PR. Interestingly she was an art agent before moving to Leo Burnett and then taking on her first role in corporate affairs at Philip Morris in Taiwan.  In the episode Becky speaks about her own journey, cross cultural influences, transferable skills, the barriers she faced while navigating her career, being a disruptor and good trouble maker, leadership, role models, transformational trends for our industry, employee engagement and skills for the future.  We also spoke about the importance of work life balance, micromanagement, over communications and the importance taking charge to craft your own path, being fearless and not being afraid to fail. As Becky said, ‘we are not brought up to fight, we are brought up to share, to comply and follow the rules. So, figure out a way to accept yourself so that you are not constantly exhausted from trying to be everything. As leaders we need to take the liberty to do basic things for ourselves, like just turning off your phone for the day. Sometimes the most mundane things but hard to do.’  Memorable Passages from the podcast:  👉🏾 Thank you, it's really a pleasure to meet you again. It's been a long time and with the COVID world. I cannot tell you what a great surprise when I hear you reaching out because in the corporate world, we really have to do that. Otherwise we don't really get an opportunity to meet each other and it brings us closer if we can meet virtually. So thank you for the opportunity. 👉🏾 Yes, of course. So I have a really interesting, I would say cross-cultural background, so if I'm changing geography, as I'm speaking and making reference to location, please bear with me. I was born in Hong Kong, I left Hong Kong as a teenager and moved to Canada where I continued my education and do my college and university, and actually subsequently I immigrated to Canada. 👉🏾 So I think from an educational point of view, I am raised as a Hong Kong student, British education, I read and write Chinese, completely bilingual. So that gave me a really solid background on culture of my own nationality. But Canada really opened my eyes, I think the East and West was a really good mix for me and it really also opened up a perspective for me later in my career. I wouldn't say skill because I think we all can do and learn skills from different parts of the world, and especially with inclusion, diversity, being such a key focus these days for corporations, I couldn't say more about the mix of Eastern Western in my early education. 👉🏾 Sometimes when are talking about inclusion and diversity, that I would participate in like say the Western part of the world, I feel that having that background, that culture really provide the foundation for a lot of the discussion that's not otherwise available to my Western colleagues.  👉🏾 Yeah, so I think long story short is, I did stumble into many different areas before I come into public relations. I'm not your traditional business school, studying communication, become a journalist and then turn it into PR. That's not the traditional journey. I took a completely unconventional one. 👉🏾 Early in my career, I was actually an art agent, so I guess half of my career is in the arts. And when you in the arts, one very common phenomenon is, you're dealing with a lot of starving artists. And the arts are always fundraising because art itself, it's an industry that needs a lot of support, public sector and, in the private sector, it's so competitive. By nature, I love the arts, so that's a passion I have, I met a whole bunch of artists in my life and I felt like, okay, I can do some PR around it. So that's where I started and in fact, my own sister is an artist herself. 👉🏾 She graduated from...

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Shownotes Theresa May's 2017 general election manifesto had a pledge to require all large employers to publish their ethnicity pay gaps. And then Boris Johnsons election manifesto did not contain anything on the ethnicity pay gap reporting.  In February this year the House of Comms women and equalities committee (WEC) said in a report that 'Large companies should be required by law to publish data on employee salaries, following the framework already in place for gender. Research cited in the report suggests that addressing the pay disparity could boost the UK economy by £24billion a year.  However in March the government peddled back on its commitment and decided against making it mandatory because it did not want to impose additional burdens on employers 'as they recover from the pandemic'. Instead voluntary guidance is expected to be published this summer for companies interested in reporting. What about the impact of the pandemic on people from black and other ethnic minority groups?  Analysis from BITC 2021 Race at Work survey (24,638 employees surveyed) indicate that ethnicity pay gap data will not be widely published by companies in the UK until 2075 (53 years) without legislation and government intervention. In 2021 only 19% of businesses in the UK took note of their ethnicity pay gap and only half of them published the actual data.  In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with Dianne Greyson, the Founder of the ethnicity pay gap campaign on the government flip flopping on legislation, the need for legislation, data collection and actions required to address racial and ethnic disparities.  As Dianne said, the ethnicity pay gap is not just about making a business case or the right thing to do it is a human rights issue.  Memorable Passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Thank you for having me.  👉🏾 Okay sure. I've been in HR for about 16 years. I run two organisations, one is Equilibrium Mediation Consulting, in that space I do generalist HR. I'm also a qualified mediator,. And also I'm an accredited emotional intelligence practitioner, which is something that I've recently obtained, which is quite good. Synergised Solutions is also the company I run and I run that with my colleague Jacqueline Hinds and that's predominantly focused on diversity inclusion. And we design and develop our own products and everything is all bespoke to the organisation. So obviously with all the challenges and the situations that organisations and individuals are having at the minute, doing D&I work is so important to us. Because we want organisations to make a positive transition rather than just paper over the cracks, so that's really our stance. You also know that I'm the Founder of the 'Ethnicity Pay Gap' campaign, which has been going since 2018. That was born initially out of my own personal frustration of yet again knowing that we are in a situation where we are struggling to get fairness, and through my initial anxiety and frustration about it I started the campaign, which is still going today.  👉🏾 Total craziness. So we could just quickly touch on the gender pay gap and I understand only 24% of organisations now have reported their pay gap. In terms of why organisations haven't even thought about the gender pay gap is because, in my opinion, they don't see it as important as the gender pay gap, where it should be on exactly the same footing. It's not even a poor relation it's even worse than that. And I think that because the government have not picked up the urgency of doing this, organisations don't think it's important to do it. And with the ethnicity pay gap, organisations have been reporting and is now 50% less than it was in the past. 👉🏾And yesterday, as you alluded to, the government have said, "oh, actually we're not going to do this straight away. We will do it, but not going to do straight away. For those organisations that want to do it,...

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“Digital technologies are accelerants, they are cross cutting enablers of sustainable development. It is not just one SDG that they can facilitate or hinder but it is all the SDGs. That is how central the digital system is” @Lourdes Montenegro, Lead Digital Sector Transformation at the WBA. While the pandemic has accelerated the adoption of digital technologies it has also widened the gap between the under-connected and the hyper digitalised. There are numerous examples of those that are being left behind. Across the world the lack of access to both remote and online learning is expected to perpetuate intergenerational inequality and poverty. In the UK there are harrowing examples of the people on the margins being further disadvantaged by the lack of access - this includes older people, those on low incomes or without jobs, the homeless….. In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast my guests Heddy Ring, Lourdes Montenegro and I discussed the 2nd iteration of the WBA’s Digital Inclusion Benchmark. The benchmark aims to highlight industries and companies that are currently leading the way in fostering digital inclusion to trigger a race to the top, as well as holding underachieving companies accountable. We spoke about trends, the COVID bump, impact washing👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 The surprising reality that progress on digital inclusion is very slow and most companies are lagging behind with very few demonstrating a strong commitment 👉🏾 The marked discrepancy in how companies disclose environmental data vs social and governance data  👉🏾 While Tech companies are gung ho on AI, they are failing to consider the risks. Just 19 of the 150 companies surveyed commit to publicly available principles of ethical AI. Given the human rights implications the numbers are chilling 👉🏾 Techno-solutionism and the fact that most tech for good initiatives are one-off projects  👉🏾 On an average, women make up just 23% if the technical workforce in the 150 digital companies assessed, highlighting the need for more women in tech roles. 👉🏾 And just 15 of the 150 companies disclose that they have the basic processes in place to identity, assess and integrate human rights risks and impacts in their business practices.  I was also surprised to not see any Indian telecom companies amongst the leaders, considering how innovative they have been in making mobile telephony accessible to the poorest and marginalised If you would like to know more, listen here

Memorable Passages from the episode:  👉🏾Thanks for having us as well Sudha. 👉🏾 Thank you very much. It's a great opportunity to be here and have this conversation with you on this important topic of digital inclusion. Thank you. 👉🏾 That's a great way to start our conversations Sudha. As you know, the WBA is a global initiative that's really devoted towards incentivising and building an accountability mechanism for the corporate sector to really do more on sustainable development goals. 👉🏾 And when we were established, we did a global consultation, thousands of people worldwide, in many different countries; and what came out was that if we are to achieve sustainable development, we really need to approach it from a systemic perspective, you know, think about system change. And what are the systems that we need to change to really achieve sustainable development. 👉🏾And the digital system, was one of those identified in this global consultations, to be really important. Digital technologies are..... maybe we can call them as accelerants, that's how many people consider digital technologies; they are accelerants, they are cross cutting enablers of sustainable development. 👉🏾 So it's not just one SDG that they could facilitate or hinder, but it's the range, all the SDGs. And that's how crucial, that's how central the role of the digital system is. But as we know with the pandemic, it just exploded. And now we see a COVID bump. Did you...

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ShowNotes The collaboration between The Purpose Room and The India Justice Report came about because we are aligned in our core purpose to contributing our own two cents/rupees to creating a better world. The partnership is about helping raise awareness and understanding of the Indian justice system - so that individual know their rights and familiarise themselves with the workings of the justice system. The aim of course is to discuss how the delivery of quality justice must be seen as a priority and become real in the lives of everyone.  As Maja Daruwala said, “Citizens deserve to be well-governed, the delivery of justice is one of those factors that go into showing whether you are governing well or not.”  My guests for the second episode on the India Justice Report are Surya Prakash BS, Fellow and Programme Director at DAKSH a civil society organisation working on judicial reforms and Radhika Jha, a lead researcher for the Status of Policing in India Report series from Common Cause. The conversation focuses on budgeting in the justice system, the availability of funds, underutilisation, prioritisation or lack of it, access to justice, the quality of justice and more…. 👉🏾 The link between a strong justice system and overall growth and economic development. Did you know how much litigation takes place in a country is one of the determinants of a country’s development prospects?  👉🏾 I am sure most Indians who read this post or listen to the podcast don't know that free legal aid is one of the fundamental rights guaranteed to all citizens of the country? That nearly 1 billion Indians are eligible for free legal aid? That the system is overwhelmed is another story.  👉🏾 Restorative and reformative justice as an approach  👉🏾 The cost of crime to an economy And on a wide range of interconnected issues. Thank you Radhika and Surya for sharing your stories and experiences. This is one step towards enabling a better understanding of the behemoth that is the Indian judiciary. And Thank you Valay for helping to pull it all together.  And if you would like to know more, listen here.  Memorable Passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Thank you Sudha for having us.  👉🏾 Thank you.  👉🏾 So let me take that Sudha. So the connection between economic development and the justice sector, it seems to have captured the attention only of economists, or such esoteric researchers, but the common experience wears out this connection very well. 👉🏾 If you don't have trust in a person, you will need to take the extra effort of putting down the terms and conditions. And if those terms and conditions you are sure will not be fulfilled, you will take advanced deposit or, you will be having a lot of plan B plan C plan D, and finally you will end up going into court if many of those are not met. That puts a lot of pressure on the citizens to be aware of the laws and to back themselves up with these legal recourses, which is cost, which is time, which is a wastage of resources. These are commercial, but economic development is not only about commercial transactions. It is also about how citizens trust each other outside of economic transactions too; like your neighbours, like somebody who are just passing by on the streets. If the crime rate is high, people will not go out in the streets late at night, that affects economic activity, right? If people don't have trust with each other, then you will see a rise in crime rate, it could be a recursive loop.  👉🏾 So in India, the focus on justice sector has been on the formal justice system, has been on making sure that the number of judges are increasing. From an access to justice perspective, there has been a lot of talk, there has been a lot of noise about getting people on board. So an analogy that I frequently use is, a lot of the access to justice debate discourse in the country has been like trying to get the people on board a bus,

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Shownotes PRCA’s Race and Ethnicity Equity Board(REEB) was set up in 2020 in response to the urgency and momentum created by the tragic killing of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter movement. REEB was set up with a view to helping build a fairer, more representative industry. It has standing committee status and two members of REEB(including the Chair) sit on the PRCA Board. And in the short time that it has been around - it has created a toolkit for the industry on ethnicity pay gap reporting; a mentoring programme called PRISM along with continuously advocating for change. As a founding Board Member I am incredibly proud of what REEB has achieved under the stewardship of Chair Barbara Phillips. My fellow board members are a group who motivate and inspire through their actions.  So, I am delighted to have had the opportunity to engage with Emmanuel Ofosu-Appiah, the newly appointed Vice Chair Vice Chair of PRCA Race and Ethnicity Board (REEB) for this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast. In his day job Emmanuel is PR Manager at Mercer, he is also a trustee, a mentor and a speaker advocating for a more equitable PR Industry. In this episode we spoke about his journey into PR….. 👉🏾 His internship at Havas, The Taylor Bennett Foundation program and how it paved the way for a career in the PR industry 👉🏾 A tragic experience in his teens that shaped his identity and who he is today 👉🏾 Why so few black men are visible in the PR Industry?  👉🏾 The systemic issues that impede progress  👉🏾 Why it is important for him to lead on conversations on race and ethnicity equity 👉🏾 The role of PRs in spotlighting inequity in the industry  Thank you Emmanuel for the wonderful conversation. And here is a heart warming quote from the episode on what motivates him to do better.... “I've got someone that looks up to me now, that is reliant on me to set a good example for him. And that's what i'm hoping to do. I hope in 15 years time, 20 years time, he will be able to sit down with me and say, "You know what Dad? You set a really good example and I'm proud of what you've done" and that's what I want really.” Like to know more, listen here 👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Thank you Sudha for a warm welcome. I'm really, really pleased to be here. 👉🏾That's a very good question. Actually, I can probably take you all the way to the beginning. So I studied at the University of Manchester in 2009 and I graduated in 2012. I studied English language, literacy and communications. And pretty much I have no idea around what I wanted to do when I finished university. As you know, at Uni you meet a lot of different people. Everybody comes from different backgrounds and my course was actually quite small, we only had about 35 to 40 people on my course. So our course cohort was very, very close and a lot us kind of shared ideas around what we wanted to do. And, our lecturers organised a session for people from different backgrounds and different professions to come into our university and basically talk to us about their careers. Luckily for me, there was a really, really kind of lady called Claire, who was working at an agency called Havas, which is one of the biggest kind of global advertising/marketing agencies.  👉🏾 She came in and she spoke about public relations and I was just like, wow, PR, what's this PR thing about. I'd obviously heard about it in the past and I thought, it was all about, drinking champagne and meeting celebrities. I didn't know that there was a whole corporate side of public relations, which is pretty much what I wanted to kind of get into. So after Claire gave a talk around what she did day to day, I said to myself, you know what, this sounds like a really interesting career. My background and my university degree at the time was quite relevant. So I approached her and I said, look, I'd be really interested in doing an internship in your...

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Shownotes Did you know that we are already two years, into the 'Decade of Action' - which calls for accelerating sustainable solutions to meet the SDGs. This is the decade of reporting, on where we are; what we have achieved; and what still needs to be done as we race towards the finish line. Also, there is increased scrutiny on the contribution or lack of by multinational enterprises in achieving the SDGs; the side projects which are great PR but not much else......  My guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast, this week Blanca Civit Sarda from the World Benchmarking Alliance talks about sustainability and sustainability communications. We also spoke about........ 👉🏾 The importance of understanding the science and language around sustainability  👉🏾 Green washing, blue washing, rainbow washing....The proliferation of misinformation and challenges it creates for addressing real issues around environment and sustainability 👉🏾 The UK Green Claims Code  👉🏾 The challenge of breaking through the noise and sifting through the monumental data overload for impact 👉🏾 The intrinsic link between inclusion and sustainability for a 'Just Transition' 👉🏾 Why collective purpose and collective action are critical to achieving the SDGs.... We also spoke about Blanca's journey, the challenges she faced with Dutch or English not being her first language as she worked in different countries; her take on leadership and advice to aspiring women leaders.  What she said really resonated with me, especially this one  'Speak out, don't stay silent because you don't change the world by staying silent'

Memorable Passages from the episode 👉🏾 Thank you. Thanks for your time and this interview.  👉🏾 So I'm originally from Reus, a small city in Catalonia, not so far from Barcelona.I was born and raised there and studied there. Also at my university, I studied a bachelor's in journalism and one in advertising and then later a masters in corporate communications and PR, public relations for the ones who hear PR. And I do work now at the World Benchmarking Alliance as the communications and earned media lead, being part of the communications team but also taking care of the press office. And my background is in public relations but also journalism, different sectors; corporate sector, financial sector across the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and Spain. So quite a pan-European focused experience on mainly the corporate sector. And now I work in a nonprofit, so the World Bench Marking Alliance is a nonprofit organisation that looks at incentivising companies into taking action towards sustainable development goals and sustainability in general. So it's very interesting what communicating sustainability can be about. 👉🏾 Well, first it's important to define what sustainability means in the context of your own communications role. And that depends a lot on whether you represent another company or an investor a nonprofit or a government project. And I worked for all of them and I can assure you that these are all four very different ways of communicating sustainability. Maybe one will require more proactive media campaigns, for example, or another will focus on consumers or risk and crisis communications. So sustainability is also a very broad and complex topic. So I think the most important is that you believe in the project that you represent and have passion for it. And I think you will need that because once you specialise, for example, in the environment or human rights, you need to be very ready to read lots of research, follow very closely your policy and regulatory developments, monitor certain issues in the news and social media, and that at a certain speed.  👉🏾 So, we're living in a decade of delivery of the sustainable development goals and as a consequence, there's a lot of reporting, a lot of talk and often a lack of agreement too. So When I talk to my communications...

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Shownotes In 2022 as an industry we should be able to reflect the diversity of the societies in which we live and try to influence. The same is true for leadership and when we speak about women in leadership there is a huge need to showcase ethnic and cultural diversity also. There is sufficient data to show that role models and leaders who look like us are critical to ensuring our diverse workforces are able to grow and thrive. And of course it is also vital for inspiring future generations of practitioners.  My guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast this week is the Corporate Affairs Director for Mars Wrigley Asia, Jean Tan. A seasoned professional with over two decades of experience in diverse sectors. In this episode we spoke about her journey to Mars Wrigley 👉🏾 Her take on Purpose, what it means for organisations  👉🏾 Communicating organisation purpose stakeholders not just as a comms strategy but as a business strategy.  👉🏾 Purpose as a multi-year strategy rather than a one off campaign 👉🏾 Engaging authentically on issues, where you have the right to have a voice in and the credibility and resources to shape positive change 👉🏾 Integrating social justice responses into organisational risk management and crisis communications practices 👉🏾 The drivers of inclusion journey in South East Asia. Systemic, structural and self driven barriers women leaders face 👉🏾 What it means to lead in times of flux, transformational trends and much more..... "Purpose for me is really more of a propeller and a guide. I see it as a decision-making lens that can permeate both big and small choices in life. For me, purpose isn't already joined up, neatly framed and forever unchanging statement. It evolves as life evolves and it motivates me to set meaningful goals. So I really see purpose as a accumulative outcome of setting and reaching meaningful objectives" Like to know more, listen here 👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable passages from the episode 👉🏾 Thank you Sudha. I appreciate the opportunity to share some thoughts with you and your listeners.  👉🏾 My name is Jean, I'm Singaporean. So I'm joining you from Singapore this afternoon and I've been in the reputation and corporate affairs business for coming to two decades now. I was trained as a journalist, but I started my career in PR and marketing before eventually making a pivot into corporate reputation, public affairs and employee engagement. I've worked for different industries and agency and in-house roles, including automotive, financial services, hospitality, technology and now FMCG. 👉🏾Thank you. It's been just a little over a year since I joined Mars. I have to say it wasn't my plan to start a new role in the middle of a global pandemic, but sometimes life happens that way. I was actually enjoying the autonomy and learning a lot by running my own consultancy but Mars offered the opportunity of joining the FMCG industry, which has always been intriguing to me. And in a role that ticked all the boxes, including the chance to lead and shape reputation and policy leadership across a dynamic region like Asia. So when you factor that in alongside the chance to work for billion-dollar brands, like M&Ms, Snickers and Extra in a purpose-led organisation, it was really a no brainer. 👉🏾 Purpose for me is really more of a propeller and a guide. I see it as a decision-making lens that can permeate both big and small choices in life. For me, purpose isn't already joined up, neatly framed and forever unchanging statement. It evolves as life evolves and it motivates me to set meaningful goals. So I really see purpose as a accumulative outcome of setting and reaching meaningful objectives. 👉🏾 I think if an organisation wants to attract the right talent, investors and consumers; you really don't have a choice but to be purpose led, it is no longer a nice to have. But at the same time, organisations need to realise that stakeholders are also wise

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Shownotes The Elephant in the Room is my learning and listening project. Something that started out during a period of deep introspection and despair evolved to also becoming a passion project. But being passionate means always trying to do better and living up to the committed purpose - to shine a light on issues of inclusion & inequity. In this case it is about spotlighting the importance of access to justice for everyone in society. The partnership with the India Justice Report is also about getting ordinary citizens to understand the justice system better - so that they are better able to exercise their rights.  My guests on this episode are Maja Daruwala, Chief Editor of the India Justice Report, and a barrister from Lincolns Inn and Valay Singh, Project Lead of the India Justice Report. We spoke about the purpose behind India's first ever ranking of states on their capacity to deliver justice. The report measures the structural capacity of state based instrumentalities of the justice system against their own declared mandates.  We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 The reality that not everyone has the same experience of the justice system. For the most marginalised and vulnerable in any society, access to justice is often beyond their reach and always too costly   👉🏾 What really matters to citizens? Access to justice, speed of justice, the improvement of ground level infrastructure, locaslisation etc.... 👉🏾 Why women that are recruited into the justice system inevitably find themselves confined to the lowest rungs of the justice system 👉🏾 Lack of representation in the justice system and the importance of reflecting the population for the justice system itself must be just. The inability to change being indicative of prevalent bias in the system.  👉🏾 The fact that most citizens are not aware of their fundamental rights, because of lack of education on the same 👉🏾 COVID 19 and it's impact on the exacerbating inequalities across the justice system We also spoke about support from stakeholders, trends and what success would look like.  Like to know more, listen here 👇🏾👇🏾 https://www.linkedin.com/company/commoncauseindia/ (Common Cause India) https://www.linkedin.com/company/commonwealth-human-rights-initiative/ (Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative) https://www.linkedin.com/company/daksh/ (DAKSH) https://www.linkedin.com/company/tata-institute-of-social-sciences/ (Tata Institute of Social Sciences) - Prayas https://www.linkedin.com/company/vidhi-centre-for-legal-policy/ (Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy) https://www.linkedin.com/company/howindialives/ (How India Lives).   https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=accesstojustice&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6892073880568348673 (#accesstojustice) https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=sdg16&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6892073880568348673 (#sdg16) https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=benchmarkingforabetterfuture&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6892073880568348673&lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_profile_view_base_recent_activity_details_shares%3BB3cbnEz0QQy8%2B1OqERvZpA%3D%3D (#benchmarkingforabetterfuture) Memorable passages from the podcast:  👉🏾 Love to be here. Thank you so much for having us. 👉🏾 The India Justice Report is the first of its kind, quantitative assessment of the capacity of the four pillars of the justice system. What does it do? It takes data from only government sources, it divides it into these four pillars: police, prisons, judiciary and legal aid. It then further divides into six themes of: infrastructure, workload, human resources and diversity, trends. And then for each theme it has a bunch of metrics or indicators, these would be, you know, the share of women in say police, it would be the judge to population ratio, it would be the case load....

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Shownotes Dr Titilola Banjoko Chair of the Board of Trustees UK, IRC was my first guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast. I invited her back to talk about the humanitarian crises facing the world, with a record number of 274 million people expected to be dependent on humanitarian aid in 2022.  The 2022 IRC Watchlist - a public report that warns global leaders, policymakers and concerned citizens not just where crises are deepening but why they are deepening and what can be done about it The three C's: Conflict; Climate Change and COVID and its impact on the humanitarian crisis The void in global leadership on the refugee crisis UK's commitment on refugees  The funding gap The importance of changing the negative perception on migrants and what they bring to society The refugee integration program, role of diaspora communities in supporting assimilation and her priorities for 2021 Want to learn more, listen on your favourite podcast platforms Memorable Passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Good evening Sudha and may I say Happy New Year to you and your listeners.  👉🏾 I think what's changed in the interim for me personally, is that we are beginning to see the structural instruments respond to racism. As you will recall, previous to that people would get away with a lot of things that otherwise they shouldn't have. And if you take some groundbreaking legal court cases in the States, as an example, where the expectation by a lot of people was business as usual, people could get away with things that were, wrong and that turned out not to be the case. So I think it does send a message to everyone there are consequences. And when people are aware there are consequences then there is consideration given to actions that are going to be taken by everyone on both sides. 👉🏾 So I think that has really been helpful because to me that was a landmark and I'm sure you're aware of the cases that we have seen, you know assume that they would not be found guilty and turns out actually they would be. And then also we have seen where lots of people who have, even here in the UK Cricket, it has given people the ability to come out and actually within our court structure, in parliament to ask questions of why things are happening and people now understand that actually what you used to do before is no longer acceptable.  👉🏾 So for me, I think it's given boldness, it's given confidence to the BME community to come out and speak of things that they probably wouldn't have dared do before because you would assume there are no consequences. But now that there are consequences and people have confidence and assurance in the system, people are coming out and actually speaking of instances and incidences that have happened in the past and actually it's given its due consideration and process. I'll say it takes you on that journey where actually things are going to change and are already changing.  👉🏾 It's been challenging. I mean, as everybody knows, the world has changed, the world is not what it used to be because of the pandemic. And the pandemic, is not a health issue, because it has consequences on everybody's life. And countries have become very insular in what they want because they are protecting their own citizens and we see that. So there are lots of things, when I took on the Chairmanship, I thought we will continue the journey, things will get better, but actually, things have got worse. So if you think about the space in which we operate as a humanitarian organisation, we now have in just 20 countries alone and the list is endless of countries that are faced with humanitarian challenges. You have over 274 million people in just 20 countries that are impacted and of those 80 million in some countries, when you add the total top 20 countries, actually, they're displaced globally and then you also have a considerable number of millions displaced internally. 👉🏾 When I spoke to you last, I don't think

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Shownotes:  Journalists and PR professionals don't always trust each other, even though there is a mutual dependence - journalists are wary of spin, and the PR pro is worried about a negative angle or a hatchet job. However, it is possible to foster trust based on good ethics, respect and professionalism. My guest Deepali Gupta is a journalist with nearly 2 decades of experience working with some of the most prestigious Indian and global publications (Indian Express, Dow Jones, Wall Street Journal, Economic Times). Deepali is also the author a book 'Tata vs Mistry'.  We reconnected when she moved to the UK last summer with her family; as diaspora forging a new relationship based on our shared stories, experiences and love of India.  She is not my typical guest, but I grew interested in talking to her when I read about how skewed the ratio is between men and women business authors. In the episode we also spoke about Deepali's journey to becoming a journalist covering finance, equity markets, conglomerates 👉🏾 Why she decided to write her first book on corporate India's growing up moment and biggest boardroom battle 👉🏾 How she prepared for it with material mostly available in public domain (approx 9000 pages of information)  👉🏾 And of course focus on some of the issues that she dealt with in her book on governance, trust, conflict, succession planning, independent directors, family run businesses 👉🏾 We also spoke about her experiences in the newsroom and what it takes to succeed as a female journalist 👉🏾 Her much delayed next book (due to COVID) and a new beginning in the UK Memorable passages from the episode:  👉🏾Thank you so much for having me here. It's lovely to be here.  👉🏾 So I've been a journalist for a little less than two decades. I started with the Indian Express group, then went away to Dow Jones and the Wall Street Journal and finally settled into a nice role at the Economic Times. I quit the Economic Times towards the end of 2018 with a mission to write a book.You know the outcome of that. It's called 'TATA vs MISTRY'. And to be honest, I landed in journalism purely accidentally. I come from a family of professionals who are overachievers in their academic fields and I wasn't one of those. So even though the charter for me was perhaps to follow a PhD in physics or coding and science related. I don't think I fell in that category. So when I finished my college The Hindu group came and gave me an offer and said, well, you finished English literature, why don't you consider this as a profession. And that actually took me to St. Xavier's to go on and finish a post-graduation in journalism, per se. In hindsight, there couldn't have been a better profession for me. But this was a field that gave me a foot in every door, it allowed me to ask questions. So I landed up covering technology from an enterprise perspective, from an innovation perspective. I covered pharmaceuticals and again, the jargon over there can be quite intimidating, but it's fun once you've gotten the hang of it. I did equity markets, financial policy, RBI policy. And that breadth of coverage kind of landed me into a role in mergers and acquisitions and conglomerates. And that of course is, like I said, it all sort of lines up to.... 👉🏾 So to be honest this is a very welcoming profession for women, contrary to perceptions. When I joined journalism, the perception was that this is a dirty profession for loose girls, right? I don't think that I agree with that, I think that my experiences have all largely been clean. Yes, you have that occasional brush, but I think that's true in life in general. So my newsrooms have always been clean, it's been a great arena to foster conversation, to foster intellectual thought and I do think that you are seen as a peer in the newsroom. That said, I think the hours are needed and at some point in your life, in my case, I went through maternity and there...

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Shownotes It's a new year, a new day and The Elephant in the Room podcast is ready with its first episode of 2022. My guest Dr Mukund Rajan is the Chairman of Ecube, an investment advisory focused on transforming the climate and ESG landscape in India.  The focus of this freewheeling conversation in this episode is around ESG and Dr Rajan's latest book 'Outlast - how ESG can benefit your business' which he co-authored with Col Rajeev Kumar We also spoke about the drivers for change including climate and environmental exigencies and changing stakeholder expectations👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 Demystifying the jargon around ESG 👉🏾 The value of organisational 'Purpose' in the 'Age of responsibility'   👉🏾 ESG as a transformation trend that will enable companies and countries to meet their development goals 👉🏾 Big issues that corporate India can champion in building a fairer workplace and society 👉🏾 ESG as a competitive advantage and a race to the top and those who are getting it right 👉🏾 Linking ESG performance to executive compensation 👉🏾 Preparing for internal and external disruptions 👉🏾 Can be put ESG in the driving seat to drive social impact and sustainability when funds are essentially driven by profits?  Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Thank you. Thanks for having me.  👉🏾 Well, the book itself is I think quite straightforward in terms of the partnerships. So HarperCollins published my previous book, The Brand Custodian, and they proposed the idea of a book on ESG, which was beginning to get a lot of currency in India. They jumped on it and said, they'd be happy to publish. In fact, I understand this is the first book on ESG in India, that's come out. Colonel Rajiv Kumar was my colleague in the Tatas and when I was the brand custodian at Tatas, we both worked on a whole bunch of issues and also saw a number of ESG crises, up close and in person. So when he retired from the group, we had sort of made a mutual commitment that we'd write something together. And here we are I think almost two years after we made that pact and we've got a book out.  👉🏾 The subject itself is one that, as I said, is gaining a lot of currency. But, in 2018 you know, I left the Tatas and I started my own firm called Ecube. And Ecube as a name suggests is drawn from three E's Engage and Empower for ESG. The whole idea of the firm was to really support the transition of corporate India towards better ESG performance. And critical drivers at the time that my co-founders and I saw were, obviously a lot of the focus in corporate governance, that was happening in India, but equally growing concerns about climate change as a major issue within the E of ESG. So we really thought the Indian market would be getting ready for much greater focus on ESG issues. And thanks to a lot of the research and the reading one was doing, it made sense to put all this in a book form and make it available to a wider audience. 👉🏾 So, the two go hand in hand Sudha. And you know, as I mentioned in the book, I sort of outlined the way in which this whole focus on corporate responsibility, on concerns around sustainable development has really been evolving over the last few decades. But certainly human kinds ability to go into outer space and looking at the earth as a tiny blue marble from outer space reminded everyone that there is only this one Earth that we all share. And then going forward into the 1980s, you had the Brundtland report, which made the concept of sustainable development famous. Then in the 1990s, you had the Rio Earth summit, the increasing focus on global environmental issues, big developments. I think towards the late eighties and early nineties, obviously the collapse of the Soviet Union and from a world which is sort of fragmented and polarised between, you know, the non-aligned nations, the Western block, the Eastern block, you had this gradual tendency moving towards one interdependent...

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Shownotes: Something to celebrate before winding down for 2021. The Elephant in the Room podcast is a year old (slightly over actually:) 💃🏽💃🏽💃🏽 When I launched The Elephant in the Room last year, I knew that it was going to be a weekly podcast - that is the sum total of what I knew for certain. Beyond determination and hard work there was nothing else to recommend me or The Elephant in the Room. But, here we are 52 weeks later ......... And what a fantastic journey it has been 💃🏽💃🏽💃🏽 I am full of gratitude for how far in my learning journey I have come, because people were willing and supportive of a newbie podcaster like me. I would like to thank each and every one of my guests for being an enabler, willing to share their knowledge and learning. With eagerness and anticipation I am now, looking forward to embarking on the next 52 weeks - to continuing to push the agenda on inequity and exclusion in our industry, in our workplaces, in society and in our personal lives. And to ensuring that I stay true and rooted in the purpose of the podcast. 
But, before that I am going to take a break, the year has been brutal and it has taken a toll on all of us including me. I am going to revive and recuperate with my cheerleaders (my wonderful children), count my blessings and be back in the new year with some exciting announcements. Meanwhile, if you are passionate about doing something, step forward and seize the moment. If I can, you can.......Don't let fear stop you. Memorable passages from the podcast: 👉🏾 Hey everyone, welcome back to the 52nd episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast. I really wanted to use this opportunity to review the past year. And what a momentous year it has been, with unexpected highs and some expected lows; of amazing friendships and brilliant networks; of saying yes to many things and being assertive about saying 'No'; of speaking up and leaving the reticence behind; of being awake and mindful to doing good and being a facilitator for positive change; of trying to rid myself and others of self limiting beliefs and giving myself the permission to fly. Yes, it has been a wonderful journey and I am full of gratitude. 👉🏾 A year and some days ago I launched The Elephant in the Room podcast. I was nervous, as expected and there was a huge amount of trepidation in my mind about launching the podcast. It was to do with the purpose of the podcast - this was to be my learning & listening project, but it was also an opportunity to create a platform for people to speak about their lived experiences, hear from experts on issues that are taboo and deserve to be mainstream. Did I have what it takes to successfully run such a huge project - to make a commitment to turn up week after week with good content; stories that people wanted to hear; advise that people would want to take on board. Would I be able to attract listeners and followers with my credentials and credibility? Then there was the sheer logistics, background research on the topics, identifying and lining up guests week after week, the technology - what sort of mic should I have; what platforms should I host the podcast on; what were the steps...... It all seemed liked a lot of risk to take; too much learning to do; too much faff.... 👉🏾 What kept me focused was the accountability to Janet Murray's wonderful network that I have had the privilege to be a part of. Janet is a fabulous leader, who believes in leading by example - she is committed, hard working and is constantly engaged in trying to figure out how best to bring value to the members in the network. In times when we are a bit lost, there is something to be said about being a part of something bigger - which helps you take one step after the other. So, definitely a big shout out to Janet. And I don't have to repeat how horrible COVID has been for people across the world especially for marginalised communities. For me it helped me focus my mind on my newly...

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Shownotes:  It is a fact that across the world indigenous people are on the frontline of climate crisis, they are particularly vulnerable to the extremes of climate change. Deforestation, unseasonal rains and shrinking water supplies are already impacting their precarious livelihoods. As a follow-up to my conversation with the World Benchmarking Alliance on a 'Just Transition' I spoke with Satyabrata Acharayya a veteran at PRADAN, working with indigenous communities in 7 of the poorest states in India. I was keen to understand what governments, multi-laterals, donors and the third sector are doing to articulate and embed concerns of indigenous people within India's roadmap to a low carbon economy. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 COP26 and expectations 👉🏾 Feminisation of Indian farming; women farmers bearing the brunt of climate change 👉🏾 The Tribal Panchsheel Policy; understanding the importance of ownership of natural resources for indigenous communities and the potential benefits. 👉🏾 Role of India's indigenous people in sustainable management of resources and being at the forefront of battle against climate change 👉🏾 The high demand from developed countries and the private sector to align with partners for carbon sequestration (offsetting). And exploring sequestration as a concept sustainable for the communities that PRADAN works with 👉🏾 We also spoke about how India's National livelihoods programmes that currently offers financial support or livelihoods to the most vulnerable in India can help them in the fight against the climate crisis;  👉🏾 PRADAN's projects that are designed to mitigate the challenges of climate change and the partners on the journey.  Want to learn more, listen here? Memorable Passages from the podcast:  👉🏾 Thank you so much Sudha for this opportunity extended to me. Thank you so very much. 👉🏾 I am a Satyabrata Acharyya, I work in an organisation called PRADAN, which stands for the acronym Professional Assistance for Development Action(PRADAN). So PRADAN is a pioneering initiative in India that tried to professionalize development sector, especially in civil society space. So it was formed in the year 1983. I did my masters in agriculture and then I joined PRADAN. So PRADAN has operations across, mainly in the central as well as eastern Indian region. So I joined in Bihar which is now Jharkhand. So I continued in Jharkhand in that region for almost 26 years. I worked with tribals, I worked with forest dwelling communities and a large number of women. Currently I'm based out of PRADANs head office. I anchor PRADANs operations across locations.  👉🏾 You see, this way of industrialised growth this way of agriculture even our own lifestyles need to undergo changes. There is absolutely no doubt about it. It's now apparent that effects of climate change is quite apparent in our life. And especially those who are dependent on nature, a large number of farmers in India, I'm finding that they are really facing huge risk.  👉🏾 So I would say that, one of the outcomes would be that India should actually suggest changes as well as bring in investments especially for carbon sequestrations, especially for undergoing these kind of structural changes, moving towards more carbon-neutral kind of situation, so that's something which I am very eagerly looking forward to. As well as I would also say that this whole conference should actually make people aware of what are the different measures being thought of and it should also bring common people on board.  👉🏾 So the world is not aware of what's being discussed about this kind of climate change and the measures in the previous COPs, but this COP is something which is very important primarily for two reason. I think that COVID has made us very conscious about the way we are carrying out our lifestyle, our life, our agriculture, our industry, is the kind of economy growth that we are...

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Shownotes:  In the 50th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast my guest is Shilpa Ajwani, a strategy consultant & leadership advisor to consumer/lifestyle enterprises and Founder of two startups UnoMantra and SheMantra. As two women leaders we were keen to use our conversation to explore the barriers faced by women in leadership, her second innings; passion projects; spirituality, being a mother, her identity....👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 Challenges she faced as a woman leader in the direct selling industry  👉🏾 Women and their self-limiting beliefs 👉🏾 Being overlooked and the importance of taking charge of one's own career and life 👉🏾 Her journey to becoming an entrepreneur and launching UnoMantra and SheMantra 👉🏾 The shift from success to significance as a driver in her second act 👉🏾 Redefining leadership:traits of aspiring and potential leaders and our ability to learn or nurture leadership traits 👉🏾 The importance of resilience and adaptability for managers and leaders We also spoke about what drives her to do better each day or who/what inspires.  Want to know more, listen here 👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable Passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Hello Sudha, so glad to be here with you and your audience today.  👉🏾 My name is Shilpa Ajwani and I'm the founder and CEO of UnoMantra, which is my strategy consulting and leadership advisory firm. This is my second act, an act of an entrepreneur. But in my first innings, I have been a corporate professional, creating a successful career in some really well-known multi-national corporations, such as Oriflame and Tupperware brands, where I had my last date as the managing director for Tuppaware brands in India. I am the mother to a 19-year-old and feel very proud to have fulfilled that role to really my satisfaction and that's something I always talk about in my introduction Sudha, because I think I'm a nurturer at heart and that's an important part of me as well. In the pandemic last year, I founded a community for women-led coaching and consulting enterprises called Shemantra. And that is something which is a passion project and that's something I love to do. I also am very passionate about creating gender-equal organisations and that's something which takes up a lot of my time as I am passionate for the cause but, more importantly I'm driven to do something about it as well. So that's me Sudha.  👉🏾 So that I do not know if that will sound spiritual today. I'm at that stage where I honestly feel that that would be my most honest answer when it comes to answering any question on my identity. I identify very closely as a human being and that's it. I feel I'm this tiny little particle of the universe and that really keeps me humble. 👉🏾At the same time, I have realised that I am the universe. And that makes me feel extremely powerful. So I think, you know, today I'm able to make peace that the humble side is me and has to be me. And at the same time, there's a very powerful Shilpa because she is also the universe. Everything else in my journey on this planet will be a blessing in the form of different roles I'm gifted to play. Starting with when I became a daughter. And then, you know, I became a wife and a daughter in law. Always have been friends and many, many other relationships with people around me. Then I became a mother which I think was a turning point in many ways for me personally. And then of course, there's this whole professional aspect of me which I think introduced me really to the outside world, not just, you know, in my city, in my country. 👉🏾 But that gave me exposure to know and make meaningful relationships with so many people around the planet. So, all of these you know, are me. And Yet none of these is me. These are all gifts or blessings that we get as, we journey through life, is how I have you know, decided to see it. Call it "wearing a different lens as one starts to get some gray hair". 👉🏾 But this is what...

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As we navigate a world in a constant state of flux, there are deep discussions around what organisational purpose actually means, not just as rhetoric for public consumption but the systemic actions organisations need to take in order to live their values.  For the first time in decades we are also redefining leadership and the must have skills for leaders of today.  In the 50th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with Nitin Mantri, Group CEO of Avian WE and the President of International Communications Consultancy Organisation (ICCO) to explore the boundaries of purpose and leadership.  We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 What it means for a brand to have purpose at its core 👉🏾 Redefining the business of business in the context of stakeholder responsibility and accountability 👉🏾 The role of the C-suite and CEO in articulating and living organisational purpose 👉🏾 Leadership in a post pandemic world and inclusive leadership 👉🏾 What comms practitioners are doing to step up to the challenges; trends in India 👉🏾 How can aspiring leaders in our industry keep pace with the change?  👉🏾 And actions agencies need to take to ensure they are future ready and fit for purpose? Memorable passages from the podcast:  👉🏾 Thank you for having me.  👉🏾 I believe that while purpose was important I think even before the world was turned upside down by the pandemic, purpose was gaining importance in the boardrooms. The pandemic just accelerated the whole pace and it's now become a business imperative. And from 2019 to 21, the expectation for brands to create stability in uncertain times has risen by 20%. So just to give you some excerpts from a report, in previous years Brands in Motion global reports established that consumers expect brands to have a purpose, humanity and authenticity. 👉🏾 In 2021, what we call the bravery mandate clients expect purpose to inform organisational decisions on how to speak and act on societal issues and purpose initiatives at a given point. And the report actually finds that the brands that will flourish in 2021 and beyond are the ones with the courage to take bold actions and make strong stances with the full understanding that not everyone will approve of them. So for example, consumers and B2B decision-makers surveyed for the 2021 Brands in Motion report rated environmental sustainability and income equality among the top issues they wanted brands to address. 71% respondents felt that brands have an obligation to engage with social global issues when they impact and stakeholders. And they're more likely to purchase or recommend products or services from brands that address, societal issues. I'll just touch upon one more thing here, which is purpose washing. And I would say that purpose does have its pitfalls as well. 👉🏾 So even though brands across industries are taking up social good marketing, there are instances of purpose washing. People or brands eager to gain eyeballs and profit, brands are choosing causes that they think will strike a chord. So in fact, the Brands In Motion finding on purpose washing talks about this, it says that, despite a rising expectation, brands perceived impact for societal good remains flat. And 52% said that brands that take stance on societal issues are just trying to sell more products and services. So the audience want brands to help, but they aren't yet convinced that brands are delivering. So the task ahead for brands is to bridge this sort of disconnect. 👉🏾 So when we say a brand is purpose led or has purpose at it's core. We mean that brands are rooted in their own values and are clear what they stand for. So, even if part of the audience doesn't want to hear it. They should be clear about what it is that they stand for. So, these brands ground, their purpose statements in long-term quantifiable action. Microsoft talking about reduction in carbon all over the world by 2030 for example....

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Carbon neutrality, De-carbonisation, Carbon credits, Carbon offsets, Carbon sequestration, CFCs global warming, Adaptation fund, Kyoto Protocol, Bali Roadmap, Paris Agreement, G-77, UNFCCC are terms we are increasingly getting familiar with as more and more people across the world engage on issues of climate change.  To that list add 'Just Transition' - an initiative of the World Benchmarking Alliance(WBA). In light of the crucial role the private sector has to play in achieving a low-carbon world, the WBA intends to assess 450 of the world's most influential companies in high-emitting sectors on their contribution to a just transition by assessing their alignment with the goals of the Paris Agreement alongside their approach to addressing the social challenges of a low-carbon transition. The assessment covers what the companies are doing to respect the rights of workers, communities and the most vulnerable as they work towards low-carbon goals. To learn more, I spoke with Natasha Zervudachi from the WBA about sustainability and sustainable development 👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 The big challenges facing our planet 👉🏾 How are governments and the private sector ensuring that as we work towards addressing climate change, we're not creating even greater inequalities or creating mass unemployment or increased poverty as a result of that transition to this new, more carbon neutral world? What we can do to ensure a 'just transition' that is fair and equitable 👉🏾 What the WBA is doing to incentivise businesses to encourage uptake, learning from best practice and roadmaps for those at the start of the journey 👉🏾 Steps the WBA is taking to ensure that 'just transition' balances voices from global south since advocacy on climate change and de-carbonisation is dominated by voices from global north 👉🏾 The importance of embedding concerns of marginalised people in the design of the assessment  👉🏾 The short term and long term ambitions of the WBA for the initiative, the 'Just Transition Coalition' and much more To learn more listen here 👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable passages from the episode: 👉🏾 Thank you so much for having me. I'm a massive fan. So it's a real, real pleasure to be here and to get to speak to you today 👉🏾 Really, really good and interesting question there. I guess to give listeners a tiny bit of a background on who I am and where I come from. So I'm speaking today on behalf of the World Benchmarking Alliance, which is a global organisation that essentially develops free and publicly available assessments and benchmarks to measure company progress and performance towards the sustainable development goals, and the Paris Agreement. So I think, this question as you said, we can definitely see that it's being talked about much more. It's appearing within public reporting. But what we have found for our benchmarks is that there is hugely still like a massive disparity of approaches when it comes to sustainable development and the reporting of progress on that. And I would have to say that certainly for many companies, it is still either completely missing, or we do still see it as purely kind of a tick box exercise or a compliance exercise where it's purely kind of meeting legislation, rather than being kind of fully integrated into the business strategy. So if for example, we recently did a kind of holistic assessment of all 2000 companies that we've benchmarked, within our benchmarks and these are the 2000 companies that we've identified as being the most influential companies in supporting the systems change that's really needed within their industry in support of this UN Sustainable Development Goals. And of those 2000 companies, we found that 775 of them aren't even mentioning sustainable development goals within their corporate communications. And when we kind of throw our benchmarks, dig deeper, those companies that are talking about sustainability, a lot of them it's still kind of smoke and...

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The last 18 months have deepened the divide amongst people across the world. These divisions have been amplified by the worsening social and economic realities of a post pandemic society. As individuals the fissures mean that households/friends are often on different sides of the divide, neither side willing to concede or find middle ground. The ubiquitous social media platforms that have made our world shrink are often the battlegrounds to perpetuate ideologies along with a liberal doses of misinformation. What does this mean for all of us (not just comms practitioners)?  To dig deeper into this phenomenon that threatens to tear asunder the world, I spoke with Laura Osborne and Alison Goldsworthy, two of the three authors of the book "Poles Apart: Why People Turn Against Each Other". We spoke about the inspiration for the book and the collaboration amongst the three authors 👉🏾 The essential premise behind the book 👉🏾 Affective polarisation and what it means 👉🏾 The role of misinformation and uncertainty in reinforcing divisions 👉🏾 Recognition of polarisation as a business risk and preparedness 👉🏾 What leaders can do to prepare for impact of polarisation Want to know more, listen here 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable Passages from the interview 👉🏾 Thank you for having us.  👉🏾 That is in essence true. So Alex, our co-author, and then Laura, who's on the podcast with me today and myself. We all used to work at the consumers association 'WHICH' in the UK and just really enjoyed working with each other. And really respected each other's knowledge and talents because we were good at things, that the other person wasn't, in general. And then I went out to Stanford and that was just in the year 2016. So Brexit had happened, Trump was going on and I realised that the way that we worked from different political backgrounds and reaching across divides was really very unusual. Particularly that we all enjoyed it. And then what really tripped me onto it was, I was sat in a room at Stanford, we helped put on a course on depolarisation in the aftermath of the election, and an audience member asked some people who'd voted for Trump who were on a panel. "Can you tell me about a time you've changed your mind and why?" And you could feel the entire sort of tenor of the room change as people answered that question. So Kat who's a friend who voted for Trump, talked about how she had been raised as a Roman Catholic to believe all gay marriage was wrong and then had gone to college or uni and had a roommate who was a lesbian and was really ashamed of her prior beliefs and couldn't believe she thought it and all of that kind of thing. And when she said that the amount of people who softened was significant because they could see that engaging was worthwhile.  👉🏾 And I was telling this story to Laura and Alex, and it began to morph into a podcast that's we should ask people with our backgrounds and politics and business and behavioural science, about a time they changed their mind and why, and 'Open Democracy' leapt at the idea they absolutely leapt at it. And as a result, we went from there to then getting a book deal and quite unusually, you hear tales of people collaborating as authors and really not getting on. And the three of us are closer now than we were when we were at 'Which'.  I was talking to Laura the other day and saying, can we have this as a monthly supper club for the rest of our lives. It's so much fun. And I get so much wisdom from these two women that it's really valuable. So I guess that's how the book came about. Laura might want to expand and answer the bit of the question I didn't about like what the essence of Poles Apart is 👉🏾 Thanks Ali. And I think that's absolutely right. We were, I think really pleasantly surprised about how we managed to work together all the way through this in a way that was really constructive and where we all made each other better at what we do. And I...

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Shownotes My guest on the 46th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast this week is Chandana Agarwal, President North, 82.5, Ogilvy Group, India. With over 2 decades in advertising she has helped launch and build brands in India that have been appreciated globally and have gone up to win international Creative and Effectiveness awards. In this episode we talk about her growing up as a girl in Hyderabad; her lived experiences; her journey into advertising 👉🏾 Surviving/thriving in agency culture; fitting in and being more 'man than a man' 👉🏾 Unpacking what it means to be a single woman in India; shifting the victim mindset 👉🏾 Norms of beauty, a legacy of India's colonial past 👉🏾 Setting up the Marigold Society for Performing Arts, how it anchors her sense of femininity, beauty, giving her a voice and an identity beyond work 👉🏾 Setting up Subah, an initiative to support women who have lost their husbands or partners in the pandemic 👉🏾 The people who inspire her and being her own favourite person.  Thank you Chandana for sharing your time, for being driven by your dreams and passions. Memorable Passages from the episode 👉🏾 Thank you so much Sudha for having me over and it's so lovely what you're doing, bringing so many perspectives and point of views from different cultures together. So hats off to you.  👉🏾 Yeah, so we're two siblings, I'm the younger daughter of the two of us really. Thankfully I grew up in the South of India. We're North Indians who grew up in Hyderabad. For the listeners who don't know where Hyderabad or how India works, Largely there is the Aryan culture in the North and there is the Dravidian culture in the South. Hyderabad happens to be a cosmopolitan city in the South and that's when I grew up. It was a bit of a mixed bag for me, really thinking back. My father comes from a very large family and he has many younger brothers. And I think after my mother all his brothers ended up having daughters and therefore my mother kind of bore the cross of starting the trend of having only daughters and I think somewhere it rubbed off on my psyche. I was made to feel, almost grateful for being alive.  👉🏾There was a lot of pressure on my parents to say, I wish you had a son, the younger child should have been a son. Though my parents never consciously or subconsciously even hinted at that, but I think that baggage, that pressure was always there. There was a great hurry to be financially independent. I was always excelling at what I did, because I don't think there was luxury to kind of take life as it comes. All my choices in my subjects was based on the career prospects that they would open up rather than what I really wanted to do. And I just think that what I'm saying is not unique to me. It's true for the entire generation of women, all of us that grew up at that time in the country.  👉🏾 So yeah, there was a hurry to kind of learn how cycle to learn how to kind of get on a scooter you know you were just in a hurry waiting to grow up and make yourself useful.  👉🏾 That's an interesting story in itself. In the year that I was graduating from my MBA Institute, there were not too many marketing companies that came to the campus and I did not make it to the few that came. And I kept crying and crying and weeping and my father kept trying to reach me and I refused to come on the phone, obviously, there were no mobile phones in those days. And finally, he got across to me and he said, "Bhai, what is happening? Why are you crying?" And I was like, My career is over I have not cracked a job. And my dad told me one thing that stood me in good stead. He said, a company only gives you a job, you make your career. And that just propelled me into taking things in my own hands. I left the campus, I took a bus to Bangalore. I went knocking to various advertising agencies and I thankfully cracked a job with FCBUlka. The rest is history as they say or we make...

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Shownotes:  In the 45th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with the unflappable Koray Camgoz, Director of Communications and Marketing at the PRCA. For many of us in the industry he is the 'go to' guy for anything to do with the PRCA.   Koray is passionate about DEI and has been deeply involved in all PRCA DEI initiatives including REEB and EIAC.  In this episode we talk about the last 18 months, its impact on the PRCA, the industry, restructuring of the PRCA Board, and the launch of the Race and Ethnicity Equity Board(REEB).  👉🏾 We also spoke about the memorable/scary moments from the last year; 👉🏾 Progress on DEI in the industry 👉🏾 The Accessible Communications Guidelines launched in partnership with Current Global 👉🏾 PRCA's partnership with DWP for the 'Kickstart' scheme and it's success 👉🏾 PRCA CMS as a gold standard for inclusion and accessibility 👉🏾 The people who inspire him in his personal and professional life. Memorable Passages from the conversation:  👉🏾 Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be with  👉🏾 So I graduated back in 2008 really at the height of the financial crisis. So I graduated in English at a time when there were very few jobs available, not just in public relations, but in the economy generally. So I undertook quite a wide range of internships, I worked on placements and internships in charities like Action Aid and also the Department of Works Press Office before going back to university. 👉🏾 So I went back to uni the following year and I did a master's in media and communications at Brunell and then a few months later, I moved out to New York and I joined an agency called Tiberend Strategic Advisors, who are kind of a healthcare/financial services firm. And I worked with them for about six months before moving back to London and then joining the CIPR where I stayed for almost I think seven years in total in various roles working in policy and then lastly as PR manager for three years, and then joined PRC Ain 2019. So it's been about 10 years in total now, since I started.  👉🏾 It was a really interesting time. So I think obviously that the events of last summer really kind of accelerated the appetite for change and the urgency that everyone felt. I think to be honest with you, the industry has been well aware of the need for change on diversity, inclusion and you're asking specifically about race and ethnicity, and I think that the awareness of the need for change has been there. And it's been something that people have spoken about and committed to in various ways. But what we saw last summer was a kind of a massive accelerant in the urgency of it. 👉🏾 So I've worked on diversity inclusion issues and initiatives for the best part around eight years in various capacities. It was something that I worked on while I was at the CIPR as well. And as I said, I think there's been some good initiatives and some good work that's taken place, but last summer, just kind of really heightened the need for genuine and meaningful change. 👉🏾 So for us, what that meant was really creating something brand new. We wanted to create something that was not only championing best practice in the industry and making sure that we were providing all the opportunities for Black, Asian and ethnically diverse professionals that we could. But also something that would help keep us accountable as well as an association. And I remember, I think you were part of that. At the first meeting of REEB where we were discussing kind of ambitions and what we wanted to do and it was quite rightly pointed out to us by the committee itself, that our board was unanimously white at the PRCA and that was something that was indicative of the problems that we were trying to solve. 👉🏾 So it was down to us to address that situation and it's something that we managed to do quite quickly, although we're still at the very early stages of that process. I think

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Parallels have been drawn between racism in the west and casteism in India - both are social constructs, both privilege groups of people, limiting the life chances and horizons of millions of people because of where they are born For everyone interested in race, an understanding of caste it essential. Pulitzer Prize winner and author Isabel Wilkerson says, "We cannot fully understand the current upheavals, or almost any turning point in American history, without accounting for the human pyramid that is encrypted into us all: the caste system" Since, I re-started my DEI journey a couple of years back after hitting a career wall I have been advocating for a fairer, equitable and more representative industry and society. As a founding member of the Race and Ethnicity Equity Board at the https://www.linkedin.com/feed/# (PRCA) and Co-Chair of the Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council, I am passionate about what I do and am determined to help bring change. I talk about about race, ethnicity, equity and inclusion all the time, so I think it would be very hypocritical of me to not talk about caste - the proverbial elephant in the room and the pervasive inequalities and inequities it breeds. So, over the coming months I will be speaking with subject matter experts, thought leaders, academics and individuals to throw more light on this behemoth that castes a dark shadow over our society. I am no expert, so this is an exercise in learning and mainstreaming conversations about caste and hearing perspectives from those who continue to be marginalised and afflicted by it. My hope is that people stop considering being 'caste blind' as the gold standard for fairness (both in corporate India and society); and start acknowledging the deep divisions that exist in our society and the caste penalty that millions of people pay every single day. In this episode I also speak about 👇🏾 👉🏾 India's affirmative action programme a world first that is enshrined in its constitution which was written by a visionary, intellectual giant and Dalit, Dr B.R.Ambedkar 👉🏾 Isabel Wilkerson and her take on caste in India 👉🏾 A recent Pew Research Centre Report on religion and caste in India  👉🏾 Caste, Privilege, and its manifestations There are also a few sound bytes from people sharing their personal views on caste in 2021

societyandculture #inclusion #fairness

Listen here👇🏾👇🏾 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-elephant-in-the-room/id1540074396?i=1000536469957 Memorable Passages from the Episode: 👉🏾 Welcome to The Elephant in the Room podcast. Today's episode is about caste, what it means to me, my personal experiences, the Indian constitution and a recent Pew Center Report. This episode is standalone but over the coming months I hope to explore the various dimensions of caste with subject matter experts, individual and leaders from the Dalit community and my broader network. In today's episode you will also hear voices from people across India and their personal views on caste.  👉🏾 What does caste mean to me? As someone who grew up in India, I have always been conscious about caste and it's insidious hold on our lives and how it permeates the very fabric of our society and being. With the advent of new technology, and 24x7 media - caste inequities and atrocities are more visible now than it was a decade ago. But, like most people caught up in the humdrum of life, I have never done anything about it - except to push back if it threatened to infringe upon parts of my life.  👉🏾 When I launched The Elephant in the Room podcast last year, it was with a view to mainstreaming conversations that are taboo, speak about people's lived experiences and give voice to issues that are important to building a fairer and more just society. As an advocate for equity & inclusion it would be downright hypocritical of me not to talk about the deep inequalities that exist in the society from where I come. So this is...

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Shownotes The Elephant in the Room podcast is back this week with our guest Romeo Effs, Founder and CEO of Lumorus, a global consultancy focusing on addressing the disconnect, inequality and upheavals within society that stem from a lack of sustainable, forward-looking governance and leadership. In this episode we speak about his name (Romeo), journey from Jamaica, a fairly successful international corporate career.......... Experiencing racism in the UK His views on adapting like a chameleon (or Code-Switching) both as a survival tactic and as a strength The epiphany that prompted the setting up of Lumorus Why it is important to take an intersectional lens to address issues around equity and inclusion He shares his mantras for men of colour navigating the barriers in society & the workplace.  Role models and what drives him on this journey of change

We also spoke about the concept of 'bringing your whole self to work' currently bandied about as the panacea to all ills. Success of the concept usually rests upon the idea of psychological safety within teams and organisations. To put a cat amongst the pigeons - should we not consider whether we really need to bring our whole self to work? Or only those parts that enable us to fulfil our potential and thrive? And what does that mean in reality.  Romeo also believes that people of colour have been over-mentored, what they need now is sponsors - people who open the doors to roles, promotions, bonuses, prestige projects within the organisation. If you want to know more listen here 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable passages from the podcast: 👉🏾 Right, So I'm Jamaican, I was born in Jamaica but I have mixed heritage. There is a mixture of Cuba, German and a mixture of yes, Irish, African going on. And so I spent most of my life growing up in Jamaica, my dad used to be an accountant. And my mom was an English literature teacher. So yeah, all my values and everything that I live by now was because of that childhood or growing up in Jamaica. Yeah. 👉🏾 So you're right. I did move mid-career. I moved to the UK when I was 35 and it just happened by chance because I came to the UK to study, to do my masters and the intention was to return to Jamaica. I had my businesses there, I was very involved in politics. I was on a trajectory to be either a member of parliament or being appointed an ambassador or a senator and given a ministry My political mentor at the time became prime minister, which I worked with him on in terms of the campaign. When I came to the UK, I went to a really, really great university Cass Business School, it's now called Bayes. And while there, I was able to have a tremendous network of individuals from all over the world. People from Bangladesh, from India, from Greece, from Africa, from the UK. But, I was able to meet a lot of these amazing individuals who were just kind of exposing me to other stuff that was happening in the world. And I created this quantitative method called the xxxxxxxxx test, which while doing my master's, which is a quantitative method of analysing risk in supply chain, financial risk. 👉🏾 And so while at the conference, my dissertation was sponsored by, I think the third-largest software manufacturing company in the UK called AG Barr PLC. So I moved to Scotland and lived there for about four months, doing this study this research on their supply chain and just being there and being able to see how they operated, being able to travel to their different locations across Europe and just seeing how things work. 👉🏾 I quickly realised that in Jamaica, I was a big fish in a small pond, but in the UK, I had the ability of growing into a whale because it was like an ocean. And so I then started exploring the notion of staying in this country. And then after I did my dissertation, the company AG Bar PLC then hired me for a year. And so I ended up staying. And quickly after I was headhunted into Accenture which was also...

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A conversation with Saleem Khan, British Asian Trust on responding to the pandemic in India: It is difficult to forget the harrowing stories/scenes of patients dying for lack of oxygen in India earlier this year, when it was ravaged by the pandemic. A BBC report called it 'A nightmare on repeat'. It was heartening however, to see governments and businesses the world over step up to support India during this terrible crisis. Amongst those responded swiftly was the British Asian Trust that raised over £5 million for its 'Oxygen for India Emergency Appeal' with over 20,000 people donating.  My guest on the 42nd Episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is Saleem Khan, India Director of the British Asian Trust (BAT). In this episode we spoke about  👉🏾 BAT's unique model of harnessing the diaspora for supporting the development work it does in South Asia 👉🏾 BAT's $11 million Education Development Impact Bond. And how impact bonds are innovative financial instruments to raise funding for the social sector 👉🏾 The continued funding squeeze on the social sector exacerbated by COVID and the role of innovation and collaboration in addressing the shortage 👉🏾 The changing expectations of donors and how quickly they have adapted to be more flexible/accommodating allowing programs to pivot to address the COVID crisis 👉🏾 Shifting focus of donors to end outcomes 👉🏾 India Recovery fund with a focus on 1) Increasing vaccine uptake 2) Sustainable Livelihoods 3) Supporting children orphaned due to COVID including their mental wellbeing The conversation was uplifting and energising because Saleem is a glass half full kind of person. If you want to know more listen here 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 Memorable passages from the episode 👉🏾 Lovely to be here Sudha and thanks for having me.  👉🏾 It definitely was and you're right, I've spent more than a decade in Citibank and then close to seven years with a UK based private sector firm. And overall experience of more than two decades on the, private sector side. I remember that phase, it was about six years ago where, you hit that phase in life where in your career, you've come to a point where your learning's just plateau and you don't tend to enjoy what you're doing really. So I needed to look at doing something different. And I wanted to, I started evaluating sectors, which are growing sector, sectors that I can apply my skills aptly and sectors which require those kinds of skills. And that's where, I identified the social sector and frankly for me, unlike most, it was not just the motivation of doing social good. It was the mix of being able to apply my private sector skills into an area or a sector which would really benefit out of it. So this was about six years ago and then social sector was considered to be like a retirement option, something that you'd take up, when you hang your boots. And people would call it like a Jholawala job where 👉🏾 In fact, when I took up this option that I had as well. I had people calling me and having serious conversations "what's wrong with you, what has happened?" Or some making jokes "Oh it seems like you've made a lot of money and then now you're just going to the world of social good". The sad part about the social sector is, one, at that point in time I thought there was some incredibly talented people, but there was a need for a lot of private sector talent, to come in and to work upon building that sector one. Two, it also was marred with this whole reputation that, in the social sector, you don't get paid at all. So you would take like huge salary cuts, will go into that job because you just want to give back to society, et cetera. And what I've seen changing over this last six years Sudha is a lot of that has really changed. One, there has been absolutely brilliant movement from the private sector to the development sector, after me I saw some amazing people who have joined the sector and people have come...

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Shownotes:  Sumita Ghose my guest on this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is the founder of Rangsutra - a social enterprise working with artisans in rural India. A Fulbright Scholar and the recipient of the MacArthur Fellowship for Leadership, Ghose set up Rangsutra with a goal of bringing about socio-economic development and inclusive growth to rural India by engaging both the community and market.  But, the venture almost didn't take off because a leading public sector bank refused to give her a loan since she did not have collateral. A determined Sumita raised the seed funding from a 1000 artisans who she had worked with in the past. Today, Rangsutra is co-owned by 2000 artisan shareholders along with Ghose, Social Venture Capital Fund Aavishkaar and Fab India's Artisans Microfinance.  Sumita's ambition for Rangsutra is to be a global brand but also to show the world that there is a way of doing business, which is good for all. In India the partnership with FAB India and IKEA who have a similar value system has helped Rangsutra to grow from strength to strength.  Listen to her Sumita speak about her journey.  👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 "I swear by the waves of the sea and seashore, that we will change the warp and the weft of society. And this change can only happen if it begins with you. You have to be the change you want to see the world and the world will change accordingly". This song by Kamla Bhasin, developmental feminist activist and poet is the inspiration for these women artisans engaged in bettering their lives.  Memorable Passages from the episode 👉🏾 Thank you, Sudha for having me happy to be here.  👉🏾 So I grew up in Bombay and went to school and college there. And while growing up there, one of the good things that I experienced right from school was that there was the sense of you can do anything you want. Because there are so many opportunities, there are so many role models of people that you can emulate unlike a small place. So I was always interested in crafts, I learned from my mother to stitch clothes because being a Bengali every Pooja we used to get three sets of clothes, and my mother would stitch those clothes for me till I was about 15 years. 👉🏾 But when it came to deciding about college I sort of chickened out from focusing on this and I decided to go in to study science. But in college a year of laboratories and chemicals just put me off totally and I switched to the humanities focusing on economics but I must say I wasn't clear about what to do even at college. And then after I finished my last paper  in Economics, I came back home and I told my friend I just cannot study anymore. I need to work. Of course who's going to give work to an economics graduate I mean, there are millions of economics graduates. But a friend of mine came across a post for a sales person in a store called 'Artistic' and which made and sold the most beautiful products, mostly handcrafted products.  And I applied there and I got a job and for two years, it gave me an idea of the amazing craft heritage that we have whether it's in woodcraft, metal craft, semiprecious stuff and Pichwais. There was a little workshop where some of these products were made, specially handbags. And I realised that the people who were making it were really not getting a good deal. They had the skills, but they obviously were living a hand to mouth existence. And of course, growing up in Bombay you know how it is Sudha you've lived in Bombay I think. 👉🏾 As an adult you are very conscious of the inequalities in our society. So that stayed with me, of course, I didn't know what to do with it, but I was conscious of it. It was in college where I met my future husband, he wanted to do something, to bring about a change. And he opted for a subject called rural development, which was offered for the first time in Bombay University and there were only two students who took it. So...

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The Elephant in the podcast is now 40 episodes old/young, I am not fussed💃🏽💃🏽💃🏽 For the 40th episode I had a quick catch up with Kavita Lakhani, about the first edition of the 'I Lead' survey by WICCI PR & Digital Marketing Council & IIM Kozhikode. The survey which had over a 1000 respondents from across India, looks at the barriers women face as they move up the career ladder; progress made so far and also makes recommendations on frameworks for helping women succeed.  What the 'I Lead' survey does is capture data that can be used as a foundation to design interventions at the industry level or organisational level to help women progress  Kavita and I spoke about the good, the bad and the ugly from the 'I Lead' survey 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 The dismal representation of women at leadership/C-Suite level 👉🏾 Equal Pay 👉🏾 What women want?  👉🏾 The need for a defined career path and mentoring  👉🏾 The challenges at the policy level, skill set level and mindset that are holding women back 👉🏾 Recommendations on upskilling, mentoring and network  If you want to know more, listen here  Memorable passages from the episode 👉🏾 Thank you Sudha for having me back. The last conversation was a fun one, and I'm hoping that this one will be. We have a lot more to discuss today. 👉🏾  One of the things that I wanted to say before I get into this survey, that no chamber of commerce & industry in India today has the representation of the communications industry. And when I started this role at WICCI. That was the first ask if I was going to come on board in the Women's Indian Chamber of Commerce and Industry (WICCI), I'm going to start a communications council and that's where the journey started last year. And one of the other things that I also understood was that there was no documented study of Women in leadership roles or Women in communications and their journeys that was carried out by academic think tank or institution. And that's where I reached out to the Indian Institute of Management, Kozhikode. They've been at the forefront of gender diversity initiatives and I felt that they would be a wonderful partner because they have been championing gender diversity for several years now. However, they had not focused so far on the communications industry and that's what we asked them to focus on. The respondents for this particular survey, were not limited to either public relations or corporate communications. It went far deeper, because there is no such study that actually covers all the communications disciplines including advertising, journalism, corporate affairs, content, media. And we wanted this to be a comprehensive survey, this is almost like a benchmark for the industry as well.  👉🏾I think a lot of work has gone in, in the last couple of years, and companies have kind of really moved towards ensuring better gender diversity. For example a good number of participants, nearly two-thirds of the respondents of this survey, they said that male and female employees are evaluated on equal parameters. And that I think is a big, big win. The other thing that they mentioned is that 67%, which is once again, nearly two-thirds of the respondents believe that their organisations value and nurture ambitious women. And typically ambition and women are not words which go well together. So I think this was a very interesting point that came through in the survey.  👉🏾 Also, another very heartening fact was that more than half of the respondents stated that women are being provided upskilling opportunities. And I think this is more relevant now because with COVID and with all the things that are happening around us, with the technology changes that are happening in the external environment, upskilling is an absolute must-have. It's not an optional thing any longer, so I'm glad that the respondents felt that women are being provided upskilling opportunities...

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Shownotes:  Indigenous people make up 8.6% of the Indian population i.e. a staggering 104 million people (give or take) but they continue to live on the fringes of society and development.  In terms of scale only 13 countries in the world have a population over 100 million.  In India, they are known as Adivasis (or the earliest inhabitants of the continent), they are not a part of caste society. Their world view is of a non-hierarchical relationship with nature and people. A worldview considered backward by majority, modern industrial society worldview. Non-Adivasi Indians have very little or no idea about this non-homogenous group of people and have very little interface with Adivasis or their way of life.  India has several laws and constitutional provisions that recognise the rights of indigenous peoples to land and self-government. The Indian Constitution also provides for positive discrimination in employment, higher education and political representation in the Indian parliament and state assemblies. However, these positive discrimination efforts do not seem to have worked. The HDI, human development index of Adivasis in India is 30% lower than the national HDI.  Adivasi leaders, activists and academics believe this is because it does not recognise them as different and does not allow them to define and design their own development agenda.  From a measurement point of view there is a shocking absence of systematic effort to periodically track the impact of various development programmes.  So, on 9th August which is the 'International Day of World's Indigenous Peoples' PRADAN announced India's first every 'Annual Adivasi Development Indices Report' or (AADI).  Listen to my conversation with Dibyendu Chaudhuri from PRADAN to learn more about this brilliant initiative.  The photo is of Jacinta Kerketta, poet, writer and freelance journalist and Gunjal Ikir Munda an assistant Professor, folk musician and folklorist talking about the Adivasi worldview and celebrating the language and culture.  Memorable Passages from the conversation:  👉🏾 Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to talk about the indigenous people, their ideas, philosophy, and their issues. Thank you so much.  👉🏾 So what I know I can tell you. World wide indigenous people have their own diverse languages, cultures, rituals and world views. World views means their way of living, their philosophy, their relationship with nature, their relationship with their own neighbours, the way they structure their society, their livelihoods, their knowledge system, or even their language. All these are shaped by this philosophy which you may call tribal worldview, the indigenous peoples’ worldview. Now, what is common among all these indigenous people worldwide is that all of them faced the same challenge throughout history and that challenge is the attack they faced from another worldview, the so-called modern worldview, which is based on you know, hierarchy, personal progress, exploitation of nature. 👉🏾 Now this worldview dominates the indigenous people's worldview. The worldview of indigenous people is considered backward by this modern worldview. In fact, all of us, you, me, probably all of us, are subscriber to this modern worldview. So as a result, the indigenous people have been asked to follow the same path that the industrial society, the modern society has followed. So in this clash of world views, indigenous people started losing their culture, their way of living. However, they never could fully be part of the modern society, nor the modern society could provide them everything that would have been required for them to be able to grab the opportunity available in the modern society. 👉🏾 Now let us come back to India. In India, people who were originally not part of the caste society and actually remained away from them are considered indigenous people. In Hindi we...

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Shownote 'Performance Vocabulary' is it just jargon? Or does it serve a purpose? The pandemic has forever transformed how we live and work, it has already thrown out of the window traditional wisdom that workers need to be in the workplace to be productive. The only certainty in today's world is the uncertainty. In this uncertain environment, businesses are having to rethink ways to being able to deliver effectively on their financial goals, have a highly motivated workforce, happy customers and also meet broader societal expectations. All this while navigating a world in a constant state of flux.  The reality is that across the world many employers are also getting ready to get back to in-person work; but all employees are not. We are all trying to process new ways of working and also evaluating our relationship with work. It also does not make it easy that different countries are at different stages of the risk mitigation journey i.e. their vaccine programme; rates of infection; government advisory etc. The expectation of employers and employees also differs from country to country and across generational divide. There are no homogenous groups that are for in-person or those against.  This may lead to different levels of engagement or dis-engagement or productivity or lack of if, which in turn is likely to impact motivation/morale and ultimately bottomline. In such scenarios what can organisations do to build a cohesive culture of performance - at the individual employee level but also at the broader organisational level?  In the 38th episode of https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=theelephantintheroom&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6829000451824881664 (#TheElephantintheRoom) podcast I spoke with https://www.linkedin.com/in/ACoAAAHiVt8BL6PryI4yqdDm6TQTB5LGXpCI-sk (Maya Sadasivan) a leadership coach about the evolving role of managers and teams within an organisations and also performance vocabulary. 👉🏾 What can organisations do to ensure that individuals and teams are able to still deliver and be productive? 👉🏾 Performance vocabulary, what it means in practice 👉🏾 Building a team or organisation wide performance vocabulary 👉🏾 Is it a competitive advantage? 👉🏾 Should the C-Suite be championing it? Who owns it? 👉🏾 Performance vocabulary and it's role in defining culture https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=motivation&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6829000451824881664 (#motivation) https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=culture&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6829000451824881664 (#culture) https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=productivity&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6829000451824881664 (#productivity) https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=ownership&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6829000451824881664 (#ownership) https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=performancepsychology&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6829000451824881664 (#performancepsychology) Listen here Listen here 👇🏾👇🏾 https://lnkd.in/d-t2dbyh (https://lnkd.in/d-t2dbyh) Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Hi Sudha. As usual, it's a pleasure and a privilege to be able to share my thoughts and talk with you.  👉🏾 Yes, I know, I was just thinking, where do I start? The role of managers has literally transitioned from maybe, the first or the second gear to the fourth gear, and it has simultaneously redefined a lot of workplace, structures and strategies. And it's almost as if the managers, without warning, were thrown into the deep end and nobody's asking, "do you know how to swim?" They not only have to swim themselves, they have to ensure that the team also swims. In fact, it is a point to be noted that the managers have often realised that from individual contributor, when they started handling...

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Reams have been written about how Facebook's grand plan to connect millions of Indians to the internet went horribly wrong and they faced one of their biggest setbacks ever. You would expect that a company of that size would know better than to trip on poor understanding of local culture and aspirations. As someone who started my working life in India, I have lost count of the number of times multinationals come in with a campaign or an idea that has worked for them in another market(namely HQ), that they want executed verbatim (an occasional client would consider language).  While the world appears fragmented the reality is that we live in an increasingly interconnected world. And if we consider the local context and the UK it is more likely than not that your co-workers, employees, suppliers, customers are likely to be from different cultural backgrounds. The ability to engage effectively with people who are not like us or cultures that are different does not come naturally to everyone. Being able to successfully navigate internally and externally is a skill, it requires us to develop some level of cultural competence.  My guest on this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is Melanie Chevalier, Founder of Creative Culture. Melanie set up her consultancy long before it was fashionable to talk about culture and cultural diversity. Her passion is rooted in her love for languages and her upbringing as the daughter of expats - living in Taiwan, Brazil, Cameroon, France, Spain before settling down in the UK  In this episode we talk about importance for cross cultural understanding for businesses How important is language in understanding cultural nuances and barriers?  Making sure local cultural insights are used at the design process of campaigns/processes. Rather than trying to fit it in at the last stage - when it is more likely than not that it is too late.  How cross cultural understanding has moved up the agenda of the C-suite? What can organisations do to exhibit cultural sensitivity?  Poor understanding and it's impact on the bottomline?  We also speak about future tense languages, best practice, examples of those who are doing it right and what organisations can do to get started on their journey.  Memorable passages from the interview: 👉🏾 Thank you very much, it's a pleasure to be here.  👉🏾 Sure. So I'm Melanie, I'm French a hundred percent as it happens, but I was very fortunate to be the daughter of an expat, which means I was raised around the world. So I grew up in Taiwan, Brazil, Cameroon came back to France for a few years and then moved on to Spain and then the UK, which I've been living in for 16 years now. 👉🏾 So really very much of an international background. I went both to the American and the French schooling system, which obviously opened my mind to different ways, very different ways. And so it was only a natural that I ended up studying languages and I had a really keen interest in marketing and advertising. So I built my career really around my passion for languages and cultures and prior to setting Creative Culture, I spent a few years in transcreation which is typically the process of adapting creative copy to multiple languages, but always retaining this really important cultural aspect behind it, both in terms of the company culture, tone of voice and values of the brand, but also from a country culture perspective. 👉🏾 Sure. So as I was mentioning before I set up the business, I was in transcreation, solely. So looking a bit at the end part of the process when you're communicating to different markets. And I realised that there was a gap in the market whereby the cultural element was always left to the last minutes, which was always too late because effectively as much as you can adapt some copy, if concepts or messages are irrelevant to a culture and they won't work, well there's not much you can do. 👉🏾 So this...

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Major fan girl/woman moment, last week when I met the incredibly inspiring Ekpehdeme 'Pamay' Bassey to interview her for The Elephant in the Room podcast 💃🏽💃🏽💃🏽 I have been stalking her for a while now on LinkedIn, after reading her book 'My 52 Weeks of Worship'. The book really resonated with me - it helped me move forward at a difficult time.  In this episode we speak about her background; her career choices; using learning as a superpower; kindness; laughter; the weight of emotional burden We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾 👉🏾 Her dual roles at Kraft Heinz - that of a Chief Learning Officer and Chief Diversity Officer; the synergy between the two roles and how she has prepared for success 👉🏾 The role of L&D in a post-pandemic world, how has it evolved to meet the changing needs of managers and leaders from a skills perspective but also from an accessibility point of view 👉🏾 The changing role of leaders during the pandemic. And the key attributes leaders need to navigate successfully through the pandemic and beyond 👉🏾 'Learn like an Owner' and 365 days of Learning.  👉🏾 The relevance and importance of IQ, EQ and CQ 👉🏾 Her passion for comedy and improv and how it helps her at work 👉🏾 'My 52 Weeks of Worship' project. And its relevance in today's world

Thank you Pamay Bassey for your generosity and time. 

If you want to know more subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google or your favourite podcast platform Memorable passages from the podcast: 👉🏾 Fantastic and thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.  👉🏾 It's so great because that's a question I get often, but for me it was not the weirdest path that you might imagine. And so symbolic systems is a discipline it's interdisciplinary, and it draws from computer science, philosophy, psychology, linguistics and logic. And I chose AI as my specialty, because I was really fascinated by artificial intelligence, but the whole major was focused on understanding how people learn, how people process information. How people make symbolic representations of information. And so learning was part of that whole kind of conversation and when I was done, I really thought I was going to stay kind of in Silicon Valley and work on some of the products around creating intelligent computing. But I found a program at Northwestern that was run by AI researchers, but it was in partnership with the consultancy Accenture. And they said, now that we know how people learn and how people process information, let's try to create engaging and interactive and interesting learning environments in a corporate setting. And so that was the first kind of combination of like my interest in learning and corporate, kind of my first corporate job and I mean, that was the beginning of my path into learning and development and that's been the through line in my career since then. 👉🏾 I am very, very blessed. One of our first corporate leadership principles is work as a team. So I'm blessed to have a great team. The senior leaders from the top of the organisation on down are focused on supporting the creation of a continuous culture, a learning culture. And one of our values is we demand diversity. So again, from our CEO on down, really having the support across the organisation too, so that we all do the work together, I say amplify the work that we do to create an inclusive and a diverse workplace. But the connection to me is really kind of neat, I think because when you talk about diversity and inclusion, diversity is more about representation. 👉🏾 It's a fact, we live in a diverse world. There are people from different walks of life that are at this moment coexisting. So it's a fact that you know, that we're living. Whereas inclusion is about learning, it's a choice. How can I make sure that everybody has a seat at the table? How can I make sure that I'm asking people to share their experiences and their voices? How can I as a...

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SHOWNOTES My guest for the 35th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is Ruby Raut co-founder and CEO of WUKA. Founded in 2017, WUKA is a female-led start up, making the UK’s first ever reusable and leak-proof period wear. The business idea came to her while studying environmental science and learning that 200,000 tonnes of tampons and pads end up in landfills in the UK.  WUKA stands for Wake Up Kick Ass because the belief is that nothing should hold women back during their period. The mission is to make sustainable lifestyles accessible to everyone, because sustainability should not be a luxury, and periods are not a luxury.  Ruby is also determined to break down the continuing stigma around periods. In this episode she speaks about growing up in Nepal, moving to the UK to find her purpose. Her journey to becoming an entrepreneur.  We also spoke about  👉🏾 Challenges she faced starting a business as a women in a new country 👉🏾 Period poverty in the UK 👉🏾 Government support for sustainable and eco-friendly products  👉🏾'Axe the Period Pants Tax' a campaign calling on the UK Government to remove the unfair 20% VAT charge on period pants

Listen to how this gutsy young women is on a mission to create a more sustainable world and empower women 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 https://periodpants.org/ Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Thank you very much Sudha for having me, I mean, it's been quite a while since we spoke and it's been I think a long dream coming to the podcast. So yeah, I'm very, very excited to be here.  👉🏾 So I grew up in Nepal, very Eastern part of Nepal, it's almost like my home is very border to India. So now, and then I say to my friends, you know, like I used to walk to India. And also because we have the open border system. You don't need a passport or anything, So I walk and I'm like in India? So I was born up in the mountains. But later on my family moved to more like a Terai area, closer to India and I came to UK when I was 20. So majority of my life, I lived in Nepal. Family of five Mom, Dad and three sisters. So we didn't have any brothers in the house. So often my sister thought that I was the brother figure in the house. It's nice actually, I miss my sisters and it was really nice to grow up in a household where there was no discrimination between boys and girls.  👉🏾 It didn't. So, I came here. Like everybody comes to Western country or developed country, more finding an opportunity right? So that's what I did. Also, I think when you, are stuck in like the developing country like Nepal you are stuck with quite a lot of things that you actually don't agree with. And I almost flew away from there so that I can explore more about myself and who I am. I knew that being in a very slightly more conservative society I thought that I will never progress. So it was my escape coming to UK either for pursuing education, earning more money, looking for more opportunity, cultural diversity, those kind of things. 👉🏾 It was total culture shock for me because I was the girl who I think handful saw any white person or any person of other colours, you know, other than my or people who are of different cultural background, like religion wise as well. I'd never seen anybody from Muslim community. Like Nepal is predominantly Hindu, you know?  And Sikhs and Jews, like literally nobody. So it was quite a culture shock from that, and also like language and talking and being polite, something that I never do straight up, you know, like whatever you say, right down to the point, No please, No thank you. So it was a bit of a shock. 👉🏾 Entrepreneurial journey. I think that was something that I always had a spark in me since I was very young. So I clearly remember, I think I was 11, 12 years old. And one of the person who was supposed to come and build the house, or carry the sand, or filter the sand so that they can use it for plaster didn't

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Shownotes:  My guest on this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is Alexandra Evreinoff, Managing Director at Involve a global network and consultancy championing diversity and inclusion in business since 2013.  We spoke about role models and why it is important to see people like ourselves succeeding in the workplace. Involve publishes several annual role model lists recognising and celebrating business leaders and future leaders who are breaking down barriers at work and inspiring the next generation of diverse talent 1) HERoes Women Role Model Lists showcasing leaders who are championing women in business and driving change for gender diversity in the workplace; 2) the Global OUTstanding LGBT+ Role Model Lists showcasing LGBT+ business leaders and allies and the 3) EMpower Ethnic Minority Role Model lists showcasing business leaders who are working hard to smash the ceiling for ethnic minorities in the UK, Ireland, Europe, and people of colour in the United States and Canada. A quick glance at the lists shows that there is no shortage of talent in across industries (no surprise there) We also talked about the importance of benchmarking, monitoring and evaluation of DEI initiatives, The dangers of self-certification as an ally Keeping the agenda at the top table;  Those who are doing it well.... How organisations can kickstart their own journey 'If Not Now, When? campaign that has been signed by over 80 business leaders pledging change including BP, Tesco, StarlingBank, TimeOutGroup, Talk Talk, Greene King, Kier Group and Discovery UK.

Memorable Passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Thank you very much, Sudha. It's a real pleasure to be here with you today and having this conversation. And I'm very excited and very happy about my appointment and as I truly love working with Involve. And I helped Suki Sandhu create Inolve back in 2013. So it's incredibly important for me to actually see it succeed to the best of its potential and its potential is incredibly high. So in terms of my background, well my father is French and my mother's Spanish and I was born in Brazil and then I spent my childhood like actually spread across the three countries. So Brazil, France, and Spain. Then I went and did my studies in Texas and lived there for five years. And then I moved to London and lived there for six years. That's where I met Suki Sandhu because I was working in recruitment, so Suki's our founder and CEO at Involve. And really the rest is history. So you may say that I have a bit of a diverse background here.  👉🏾 At Involve, we're a global network and a consultancy and we're driving inclusion and championing inclusion in business. So our aim is truly to break the glass ceiling for diverse talent. There just isn't enough representation of LGBT+, women, let's say just diverse talent in general. So for us it's our aim, is to really make sure that we're driving those opportunities that we're helping, supporting that talent, but also making the business world a more inclusive and equitable place. We're actually a type of environment in terms of driving justice as well, is actually key here. So everyone needs to be brought into the conversation from your senior leaders, exec's board to really all the line managers, hiring managers, anyone who has any decision-making power. 👉🏾 We basically produce three lists of role models every year. We have our outstanding lists which were the first ones that we started with in 2013 which celebrates LGBT plus leaders and allies in business. Then we have Empower and that celebrates ethnically diverse talent and role models and their advocates as well. As well as Heroes, that champion women in business. Women who champion women in business, as well as the men who champion these women. So role models are incredibly important in terms of your own journey and career development. If you don't see yourself represented at the senior...

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Shownotes So, age and ageism. Where do I start? Recognition of the issue comes I guess with lived experience and empathy. I truly believe that the intersectionality of my age and ethnicity were a barrier to my progress in the industry here in the UK. 6 years back when I was making my way back into the country after a longish stint abroad - I don't believe there were women who looked like me at leadership levels in the industry (feel free to disabuse me if this is just a notion and not a fact).  In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I talk  👉🏾 About Serena Williams (go on have a listen to what I have to say about this legend) 👉🏾 Hitting a roadblock and finding my purpose @50 and why all women need to start giving more thought to their careers;  👉🏾 Ageism in our industry;  👉🏾 Negative perceptions and myths about people over 50;  👉🏾 A global demographic megatrend and links to the SDGs;  👉🏾 Why organisations should stop taking a siloed approach to engaging with current and potential talent from an inclusion perspective;   👉🏾 The importance of challenging traditional representation of over 50s in the media that perpetuate harmful stereotypes and devalue their contribution I believe that age is not just a number - it is about my backstory; my life experiences; failures and successes. We should not allow a number to define who we are or become a barrier to living life to its full potential. And how brilliant is it that I have not mentioned the absence of 50's in Industry awards even once during the podcast?  If you want to know more listen here👇🏾 Memorable passages from this episode of the podcast 👉🏾 Hey everyone, It's been a great week for me, for England fans and excellent news for bars and pubs. Not so much for Serena Williams though, who had to bow out of Wimbledon injured and frustrated at not having been able to win her 24th title. And before any one asks, I have not developed an all consuming interest in sports. What I am deeply interested in, however, is Serena Williams and her career where it is today. Along with billions of others I have always been a fan of this hugely talented, hard working sportswomen who has been almost invincible for the longest period in time. She has managed to maintain her ranking and status in the world through sheer perseverance shattering records..... until one day she could not.... 👉🏾 Should she give up and fade away? With a personality and a drive like hers, it is very unlikely. I believe that the game is not as much fun, now it is more about besting herself and breaking a record. I am no tennis expert, nor am I her coach but what I can see is a women who is at the top of her game and has been great at what she does for the longest time ever. 👉🏾 As a woman and as a leader I feel we don't give ourselves the permission to stop being relentless in pursuit (PUH-SYOOT) of our goals - so that we are not seen as having failed. This mindset negates previous achievements and we begin to identify with that one failure. In the process we often can't see the wood for the trees. My advice (how brilliant would it be if she did actually listen) She should not allow herself to be defined by that one seemingly elusive record, and not get carried away by the narrative in the media about this invincible, all conquering person.  👉🏾 Why am I talking about Serena Williams? It is because she is a legend and she is about to turn 40. In a sports where the average age of the top ten players is 25 she has defied experts by accepting and adapting to the challenges that come with age. And this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is about age and ageism.  👉🏾 I am no font of wisdom, but a few setback in the last couple of years mean I am less naive about where we land in life - being good at what you do does not necessarily translate into success. The long and short of it is that I...

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Shownotes:  Nicky Merrick my guest on this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast is the owner of a small business Pink Giraffe, a podcast host, blogger and a speaker. She is also a disability advocate and wheelchair warrior (I quote from her LI bio) creating awareness about how small businesses can be disability inclusive. Since she started the business, Pink Giraffe has pivoted a number of times to adapt to her own changing physical needs but also business requirements. What is obvious though is that she is an astute business owner who has been ahead of the curve during the pandemic when she moved her business online selling digital content to other dance costume makers around the world.  Listen to Nicky speak about Pink Giraffe, MS and how it has shaped both her personal and business life, adapting during the pandemic and what drives her everyday. And her strong feelings on being viewed as a role model.  If you want to know more listen here👇🏾 Transcript of the conversation:   👉🏾 My background is probably a little bit outside of mainstream. We now know that I have multiple sclerosis, but I've actually been ill since I was about 13, but we didn't know and I wasn't diagnosed until when I was 30.So I never actually finished school. I was too ill, I never sat an exam. I didn't do any of that. I never even attended school in the final year. I don't think I did a full week of school since being 12. So I had no formal entry requirements when it came to trying to get a job or applying for university or anything like that, but it didn't hold me back. I still went on and I had success. I had some great jobs, jobs that I enjoyed and that I did well in, and after travelling in Australia for a year, a lot of peoples are like, so are you going to settle down now, Nicky, are you going to, you know, just buy a place to live.  👉🏾 And I panicked and I thought, gosh, what am I going to do? I need to buy myself some more time. I was 25 and I thought, I know I'll go to university, that will buy me three more years where I can be independent and free and not have to worry about grownup stuff. And so I applied to University college Chester and they accepted my application based on merit and an application letter. Which was amazing because, I didn't have any formal entry qualifications, but being a mature student, I think they were able to just take me on merit. And I did a degree in journalism, which was amazing. And I learned so much, even though I didn't want to be a journalist I still learnt a lot, that I've been able to use, particularly in my business life. And in my final year, I was in the middle of my dissertation when I met my husband, who already had three children. My plan to have three years of independence and freedom resulted in me having three step kids by the time I graduated, which was obviously not part of the plan, but I would not change it for the world. I absolutely loved my family.  👉🏾 After graduating, I took a job with a travel company, but with meeting my husband, I then moved in with him and was travelling between Chester, where I lived, my partner was living in Merseyside, my jobs was in Manchester. It was all a bit too much, so I changed jobs to somewhere more local to where I was living when I moved in with my now husband. I worked at a bank and it wasn't very exciting and it didn't fulfil me. It was just an obvious step to take because it was, pretty well paid and it was local, I was on the graduate scheme, it was nearby. But they needed to get rid of some staff and they let me go sort of last one in first one out kind of policy. And I was left a bit, "Oh, what do I do now?".  👉🏾 And Chunky who's now my husband, he was self-employed working in the music industry and he said, why don't you start a business? There's so many things that you could do. So I did a bit of marketing, which I'd obviously learned as part of my university degree. And I set up

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Shownotes: We all know that diaspora communities maintain and nurture their culture differently to people in their home country. They feel the need to foster their personal cultural identity but are also under enormous pressure to assimilate in their adopted countries. For societies to be inclusive and flourish - this is essential. But, for the diaspora more often than not this means hiding some part of their cultural identity to not bring attention to themselves. Food seems to be no longer a taboo, but way we speak, the language we use, how we dress, socialise, live, worship can create barriers to assimilation.  Culture also shapes our values - what we consider right and wrong. Like most immigrants I am proud of my heritage and culture - for me it is about it is about food, music, festivities, the diversity of language. Like most Indians I can speak three languages fluently and converse in a couple of dialects.... And like most Indians in diaspora - socialising within the community was the safety net. However, it can be tremendously isolating if you are trying to 'fit in'.  So I decided to have a series of conversations with diaspora communities from different parts of the worlds to understand their experiences and think about what the real barriers to integration are.  In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast we talk about the importance of culture for diaspora communities, in this instance for the Indian diaspora. I got together with three childhood friends who moved abroad either as students or after marriage to talk about their lived experiences, of trying to fit in; cultural stereotypes; language and identity. We also talk about a journey spanning three decades and how the next generation look at their culture.  Thank you Archana Bhat, Poonam Mathur and Anita Gupta for this memorable conversation Memorable passages from this episode:  👉🏾 So my first question to you is as an Indian diaspora what does culture mean to you and how important is it to you. Should we start with Anita?  👉🏾 Anita: Indian culture to me means our values of respecting each other respecting what we have and living in peace and harmony, that's what I consider Indian culture.  👉🏾 Archana: So it's a very similar definition Sudha. To me it is a set of values, like Anita has pointed out, which we carry within us, our traditions, the dialects that we speak, our customs. It pretty much encompasses our religion, we can't take it out of that. The food we eat, the music which we listen to or the instruments that we play. So that all contributes or makes up our culture in my mind. And I think to me culture is really important because it gives us a sense of identity. It makes us the people who we are today. I think it builds the community in which we live and the next step to building the community. Of course it makes up the nation who we are wherever we are, whichever part of the world we are in. So culture is really very, very important to me.  👉🏾 Poonam: My thoughts are along the same lines. I think it's my core value system is my culture to me. And yes food and music are a very large part of it, but I also feel that as the Indian diaspora we have certain traits that we were raised with, you know respect, mutual respect like she mentioned, and humility and gratitude. I think we really practice that. And for me, culture is very important because it helps me create a bridge from our past generations to us, to our future generations. So my children have that link to there. So I find that's very important that they have a sense of identity as well and that's not lost in the whole process of migration here.   👉🏾 Sudha: So as migrants there is this huge pressure on us to try to fit in and also be invisible and I think that's also part of the South Asian trait, Indian South Asian trait. What was your experience when you first moved? Poonam would you like to go first? ...

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Shownotes:  We are on our 30th episode. Yayayay 💃🏽💃🏽💃🏽  In this episode I speak with Laura Sutherland about PRFest 2021. PRFest 2021 is spread across 5 days, 15 sessions (across platforms) and has a brilliant line up of 29 speakers. The focus this year is on the sustainability of the PR industry and will include conversations on society, planet, future of work, corporate social innovation and next gen practitioners.  Listen to Laura speak about what they have done in the last year to ensure that PRFest is more inclusive, how this year is different from last year and what attendees can expect on the five days.  As a member of the steering committee I am really looking forward to moderating the session on Top challenges the PR industry faces and the session 'Is the future of work, working for yourself?' on day four focusing on the Future of work  For further details and to book your ticket, £5 pounds from every ticket goes to the Taylor Bennet Foundation 👉🏾 https://www.prfest.co.uk/prfest2021/ Memorable passages from the conversation 👉🏾 So my name's Laura Sutherland. I am a chartered PR consultant. I have been in public relations now for 20 years, and I have literally just made the decision to move and specialise more in stakeholder engagement. And that's more around, thinking of purpose, thinking of audits or stakeholder mapping. Really getting to know them so that everything that an organisation does is in line with what the stakeholder needs because I really think that's where the most amount of value can come from a relationship, from reputation, but also where businesses have a massive opportunity to grow. Something interesting about myself well I volunteered for our industry, I say volunteered inverted comas, helped out the industry let's say, for around 12 years and in every position from committee members and the CIPR to board director of the CIPR. Most recently as Chair of PRCA in Scotland and Chair of the CIPR Fellows' Forum. But I'm now taking more time out and time to balance life and work, which I think is so important and we're so bad doing it. So I'm now taking some of my own advice and doing that  👉🏾 So PRFest started as an idea in my head around 2013, 2014. And it was because I was getting so frustrated at the number of events that were  being held in London with big-name speakers and basically the nations and regions weren't getting a look in anything. It was a real attitude towards the fact that everything had to be in London. And I knew that in Scotland, having worked in PR for, I don't know however long at that point, 10 plus years, that we had massive talent, we were amazing at what we did and that was for all the nations and regions. And so I thought, if you don't like something, help be the change.  👉🏾 So I pulled up my sleeves, came up with a concept for an event. I'm particularly good at organising events, so I thought an event would be a great way to get people outside of London, up to Scotland, and to bring people together to break down these barriers that our industry was so known for. And there were so many industry firsts for the PRCA and the CIPR were both sponsors in the first year and they were both there at the same time. 

👉🏾 And it was just great to bring people together and bring a real different kind of energy to the industry about professional development. Not just leaving it up to other people, to help them, but help themselves at the same time. So PRFest has now turned into community and there's probably about 600 or so part of the database, but also part of different groups, listen to the podcasts, come to the event. They attend some of the webinars, but most importantly, there to help each other. And I think that's a real sense of community when people are there for each other.  👉🏾 Okay so last year, everything moved online. And it got to this year and I did a poll and everyone pretty much said...

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Shownotes:  Pregnancy and motherhood for older women is the proverbial 'elephant in the room' in all societies but more so in cultures, where deep rooted patriarchal socio-cultural practices mean what women are supposed to be a married at a certain become mothers by a certain age.  My guest Manjari Thakur Gohil, my guest in the 29th episode is a regular trooper, she gave up a successful career moving to the UK for a fresh start when she found love. I have seen her navigate the journey to motherhood, opening herself to vulnerability, heartache but also hope. We share a unique bond of friendship, she is also the younger sister of a close friend Yasmin. I say the name aloud - lest we forget (and that is a conversation for another day).  In this episode we talk about the stigma around pregnancies in older women; fertility treatments and IVF; the trauma of being judged by family, friends and society; coping with mental health, and the need for education and awareness amongst girls and women on reproductive choices......  Her Twitter bio, is poignant but reflects her mantra in life, "On a Journey of a road less travelled. Have lived three lifetimes in one and am not complaining..." If you want to know more listen here👇🏾 Memorable passages from the episode: 👉🏾 So, Sudha I know you since my childhood in Poona and my father was in the airforce. So we moved around a lot. And we finally settled in Poona, and then my education was in Poona and then I moved to Bombay to do my social media studies. After that I continued to work in Bombay in TV. When I joined TV, it was very nascent. So it was not a very deep career. It's not like becoming a surgeon or becoming a nurse. So you didn't have that many role models, either women or men that you wanted to aspire to be. And I felt okay, so where do I go from here? And I thought, I really want to settle down and, find a partner. I had a conversation with my brother and he basically said, don't worry about my mom.  So, I started talking to my husband and we got really close and yeah and then marriage the next year and I moved to the UK. So it was not intentional, it just happened. But then when I came to the UK before we got married, I said, okay, this is a place where I can rebuild. I can get a career in another field or maybe in television, again. I really wanted to continue to work and to be part of the working culture. So I thought this is something new. It's another community to be a part of. 👉🏾 Yeah, 15  👉🏾 Yes, I have a strong sense of identity. And I think it's my overall experiences in life that have shaped the identity. A lot of people say they identify themselves with their career, or you know, when you say who are you?  They said, "Oh I am a nurse or a doctor ? Or who are you? I'm a mother of four". Those are the responses you get. So when people ask me, who am I? I said I'm Manjari. And this has been my response since I think I was 12 and my dad got a bit miffed with me, he said, why don't you say you're Manjari Thakur, why don't you say that? I said because i'm just, Manjari. So my sense of self was always me, and my brand and over the years, I've refined it to be, when people ask me, who are you? So I say, I'm me. Like, I'm me, I'm Manjari and you know, what do you do? Oh, I work here. You know, do you have family? Yes, I have family. So then, everything else becomes a part of the larger global self of you. But I am me first and then all this is attached,  👉🏾 Manjari is opinionated sometimes weak, sometimes strong, depends on what the circumstances - honest, trustworthy, loyal. These are the three core things. And a strong sense of ethics. So my sense of ethics is so strong that it's sometimes, you know, it makes my life difficult. So it's very hard for me if a colleague is not being treated right. Or if a friend is not being treated right, or if a stranger in the bus is not being treated right.  And I think...

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Shownotes Most of us have seen harrowing images in the media of the havoc wrought by the second wave of the pandemic in India and have heard stories of helpless and desperation from family and friends. The missing piece in this conversation is the impact on rural India - which constitutes above 65% of India.  In today's episode I speak with Narendranath Damodaran, Executive Director of PRADAN which is leading on civil society response and working tirelessly with frontline workers to support local communities in the second wave of the pandemic. They work in 9,000 remote and backward villages (in 7 states) touching almost 4.5 million lives every day. In this episode we talk about 👇🏾 The devastating impact of the second wave on rural communities struggling to recover from the first wave Rapid Rural Community Response (RCRC) to COVID-19 a civil society coalition formed of 54 CSO  Poor healthcare infrastructure in rural India and the need to create local isolation facilities for those who test positive.  The fear, social stigma around the disease, vaccine hesitancy The importance of protecting those on the frontline  The need for immediate cash injection into rural economies through revival of National Rural Livelihoods Programmes  The urgency for donors, the private sector and individuals to step up on funding to support the work being done

PRADAN and other civil society organisations do invaluable work by supporting local communities and facilitating government response during times of national crisis - they should be recognised for the pivotal role they play and more importantly have the access to funding to do continue their work.  Listen to the full episode Apple, Google Podcasts or Spotify Memorable passages from the episode:  👉🏾 Last time when the pandemic came and it obviously kind of came as a shock to everybody. But that time it was a fear that it might spread to the rural areas. And then we were kind of bracing for it. But the impact by the time it reached the rural areas, it kind of waned and it was predominantly an urban phenomenon. But this time, it took us by shock, as you said. And this time the pandemic really moved into the rural hinterland. And as everything in this country, when something goes to the rural areas, it kind of goes into a national black box as it were. The public consciousness of what happens in the rural areas is pretty limited. So there is very limited information on what happens in the larger scenario. So even though currently, as we speak, the numbers are waning, the daily deaths and the daily positivity cases, it is reducing. But when it is going to rural areas and the counting is also limited, so we really do not know. But from our own direct experience from the field, it is rampant in the rural areas this time. And it is actually a very difficult situation right now, as a journalist recently called it, it is a virtual hell out there as it were. And there are reports from alternate media, mainstream media is really not covering it much, but in alternate media to personal reporting, et cetera. One is really able to understand and we can counter verify it in our own personal experience. 👉🏾: Right, you just reminded me, this is an everlasting image. All our collective consciousness, the picture of hundreds of thousands of people trekking back in the heat. Of the last summer, I think really one will never forget it. And we have equally dismal images from this time, but of another kind. In the initial few days we were also kind of in a shock. I mean, as the whole country suddenly went into lockdown and people started trekking back and really hell broke out and we were also not sure what was happening and obviously, in the urban areas, we were also scared, so we were not stepping out. So we were kind of trying to organise our own lives in the beginning, but then we realised that the rural economy was...

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Shownotes My guest for the 27th episode of the podcast is Maya Sadasivan, a friend I have known for over three decades. A fortnight ago when I mooted the idea of creating a space for women in our network she didn't hesitate for a second. She stepped in, offering to facilitate the WellBeing+sessions, carving out time from her intensely busy work schedule. We recorded the WellBeing+ Mantra session on the weekend and here it is....  The episode is packed with great advice from this leadership coach and mentor about why it is important for individuals to start with their personal wellbeing; simple strategies for coping with uncertainty; identifying certainties; psychological safety; creating mind space and time space.......... Listen to the full episode on Apple, Spotify or Google Podcasts

Passages from the episode 👉🏾 Thank you Maya for being a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast 👉🏾 So The Purpose Room held well-being plus drop-in session yesterday. And we did that in response to the current situation in India. We wanted to provide our small community with a safe space to talk about things that matter to them at this point and talk about how they were coping. So the idea was to create a supportive environment for them.  From the session, my three big takeaways were that it's okay for all of us not to be okay. And what the past year has done specifically if you look at India as a country, is that it has brought conversations about mental health to the forefront and into our living rooms, because there's such a stigma around anything to do with mental health. This doesn't mean the stigma has gone away, but that it is more acceptable to talk about issues that people are facing. And the second was that leaders and coaches need downtime too, and it's okay to unplug and not try to save the world. We're constantly in that mode where we react and respond and we want to do something, take some action. So probably the idea is to step back and look at yourself and see how you're feeling. 👉🏾 The third point from the young people in the room, I learnt that organisations need to do more to be supportive. Because a lot of the people feel that they're not supported, they didn't have the confidence to voice their challenges to managers. The issues that we need to think about is around psychological safety, whether line managers are sensitised around the needs of employees working from home.The blurring of boundaries between personal and professional, the never-ending day. And the reality is like a lot of people in India, live in a flat. There'll be generations of people living in that house and they may have caring responsibilities or may not have caring responsibilities. Isolation has been a big issue for them and you were there yesterday providing great insights and counsel to the people in the room, on how they could cope or how they could deal with those situations. To start with what were your takeaways from the session yesterday? 👉🏾 Sudha, one of the strongest takeaways for me was the realisation that we, as people, we as human beings are fundamentally instinctively supportive. I think in today's times more than understanding, the value is for accepting, are we being unconditionally accepted with all our worries, our apprehensions, our uncertainties, and when we voice it, is there an acceptance that it's okay to feel so? The second takeaway for me was, as one of the participants mentioned, in spite of our hectic schedule in spite of our activity driven world and life, this one hour which wasn't easy, but we all still grabbed because it was so important to stand and stare, to be still to centre ourselves and to be mindful. And, you know, the most beautiful thing Sudha, no one is really looking for or expecting solutions, answers. They were just looking for a space where they could hold each other's hands, centre themselves. And at the end, the energy shift was so high, we kind of...

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Shownotes: This week on the The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with Yves Veulliet, Global Disability & Inclusion Leader at IBM. In this episode he talks about his book ‘Turning Point – The fall and rise’, the psychological consequences of acquiring a disability and its impact on his personal and professional life and strategies to make other people including employers, disability confident.  👉🏾 We also spoke about the biggest challenges facing people with disabilities in the workplace 👉🏾 What businesses can do to tackle underrepresentation 👉🏾 How organisations can build an inclusive culture by taking into consideration the three a's: accessibility, adjustment and attitude;  👉🏾 Not being a hero;  👉🏾 The importance of embracing failure; 👉🏾 His purpose and things he is proud of; Follow the show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 So I live in Belgium and if you have a screen in front of you, if you type, the date of 12th of July 1987 on your favourite search engine, most likely you will not find any major event in the world for the vast majority of people. That day was just another day in their life. But for me, it was a little bit different. I was 21 at that time and I lived in Belgium and for once the weather was great, the sun was shining, the sky was blue. And so I decided to go for a ride with my motorcycle and I really had a great time. And all of a sudden there were gravels on the road and the back wheel of my motorcycle slipped on them. And I fell down into a kind of a gully and I damaged my spinal cord. And as a result of this accident, I became a wheelchair user. As you can imagine, when you acquire a disability as a result of an accident, you lose 90% of your self-confidence because you need to reinvent your identity. 👉🏾 Basically, I would say that accepting your new situation is a journey. You go through a very different set of emotions, like frustration, denial, passivity, depression and after all these negative moments, you can start to look at possibility versus limitations. Some people may get stuck for the rest of their life at that depression stage. In other words, they will remain within their comfort zone, and a wheelchair user will be interacting with other wheelchair users or you will live outside of the normal society I would say. And others like myself took another option, made a different choice, like trying to find a way to be the actor of my own life and trying to find a job and getting married and have kids, you know, all the things that maybe sound normal or basics for the vast majority of people. That are not so easy when you acquire a disability or when you live with a disability. 👉🏾 Actually this book, I wrote this book because it corresponded to me. I mean, when you acquire a disability, you go through a different set of emotions and people around you, your family or friends are kind of lost because one day, especially when you spend a lot of time may be in the hospitals or rehabilitation centre, I spent eight months in these institutions. And when your parents come to visit you and your friends, you know, one day you welcome them with a big smile and the day after you want to cry or you don't want to see them, you know. So they don't understand what's going on, right? So the main purpose when I wrote this book was to more to make people understand the different emotions that we go through and why our emotions may be so different, one day from the other. This kind of book you cannot write it when you're still yourself in this journey, you need to have some experience, need to have a certain level of maturity in your own personal disability inclusion journey, to be able to have enough distance to be able to write this book. So basically the idea of this book was to really explain the different set of emotions, and also make people comfortable saying don't feel guilty or don't feel uncomfortable...

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Shownotes: "According to the World Health Organisation over a billion people, around the world have some form of disability. And with an ageing population it's estimated that more than 2 billion people will need at least one assistive communication or memory or hearing aid over the next 10 years. And here in the UK, it's expected that around 20% of the population will experience communication difficulty at some point in their lives. From a commercial perspective people with disabilities as a global community, collectively have combined purchasing power more than $8 trillion. So, not only is that a big audience to exclude, it's also an audience that certainly for consumer brands has a significant amount of money to spend"  For the 25th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I spoke with George Coleman, Co-Founder and CEO of Current Global on the recent launch of the 'Accessible Communications guide' in partnership with the PRCA. In the session we spoke about 👇🏾 👉🏾The meaning of inclusive communications; key findings of the survey Current Global commissioned in early 2021; the 'Accessible Communications' guide and why it is important for the PR and Communications Industry; the business imperative or moral imperative; best practice and early adopters Memorable Passages from the episode: 👉🏾 Put simply inclusive communications means communications that are accessible to everyone. But we see everyday content is published that is inaccessible to many people. Campaigns are launched every day that aren't designed to be inclusive of people of all abilities. And disabilities come in many forms, visible and unseen. For us in the communications industry, the disabilities that we are most concerned with in terms of ensuring our communications can reach them, are those people with visual hearing, cognitive and speech impairments. According to the World Health Organisation over a billion people, around the world have some form of disability, that's a lot. And with an ageing population it's estimated that more than 2 billion people will need at least one assistive communication or memory or hearing aid over the next 10 years. And here in the UK, it's expected that around 20% of the population will experience communication difficulty at some point in their lives. That's a huge audience to either exclude by default or by design. And also from a commercial perspective people with disabilities as a global community, collectively have combined purchasing power more than $8 trillion. So, not only is that a big audience to exclude, it's also an audience that certainly for consumer brands has a significant amount of money to spend. 👉🏾 So the objective of the survey was to explore the lived experience of how people with disabilities consume media and content online. So through one of our sister agencies in the Interpublic group, we conducted research amongst 800 people in the UK and the US who self-identified that they have impairments and disabilities. And that research is super interesting, it told us that people with disabilities readily consume all forms of content online. Use social media, video content, films, podcasts, audio books, streaming music, you name it. So the type of content and the volume of content they consume is very much in line with the broader population. 👉🏾 And sometimes the preconceptions we might have about what kind of content, someone with a certain kind of disability may consume are often wrong. We found that 98% of people with a visual disability consume visual content at least once a week or more often. We can't presume that a certain type of content is going to be more popular with a certain audience. But the research did reveal that the majority of people with disability do struggle with accessibility. We found that more than half 54%, have to use assistive tools every day. But there's a significant number that would like to have assistive tools, but can't afford them or don't know how to...

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Shownotes For this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast I had the pleasure of speaking with two stalwarts of the Indian PR and communications Industry Kavita Lakhani and Radha Radhakrishnan. Aside from being great leaders they are also great human beings. In this freewheeling conversation they share their own story; their perspectives on state of the industry; women in leadership, WICCI PR & Digital Marketing Council initiatives including the soon to be launched mentoring scheme; I Lead survey with IIM Kozhikode and what drives them to do better every day  Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-elephant-in-the-room/id1540074396Follow the show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Memorable passages from the podcast 👉🏾 Sudha, Thank you so much for having us on your podcast. And I'm really happy to reconnect with you after many years. It's nice to know that you're in the UK and making India proud there too. So thank you for this opportunity. To tell you a little about my journey I started my career in communication, over two and a half decades back. And this was when the Indian PR industry was in its infancy. So it was the era of landline phones, fax machines and typewritten hand delivered press releases, and largely editorial media. Things like Microsoft word, internet and digital marketing didn't even exist back then. I think the industry has completely transformed itself since. And it's had a huge impact on the service offerings, as well as the skill sets required to thrive in this industry. With COVID in the last year, I think we are all agreed that this is the fastest-changing, communications and technology landscape that we've ever been in. And I think that's what makes it so exciting for me and every other communications practitioner. And it's been a fantastic journey so far.  👉🏾 Thanks for this opportunity. It's great to be talking to you and Kavita together. So my journey has been one where I've probably done a lot of things by elimination. I consciously don't work for two companies in the same sector or industry, because I feel that if you have learned something from our particular company, because of your stint there and you go to the competition that, that's a disservice to your previous employers. And that has put a lot of pressure on me because I guess it has brought with it its own challenges and it has also brought with it a lot of opportunities. So I have crisscrossed from advertising to journalism, to Dotcom space. And then to a corporate and in some ways sort of settling with a corporate. And I think the journey has largely been supported or helped by some of the very good supervisors that I worked with, very nice people, both male and female, and also some fabulous colleagues I worked with. So to that extent, I think I should be grateful to what I have today. And it's been a roller coaster ride. No doubt, but exciting. Nonetheless.  👉🏾 What I believe is that PR industry specifically, was female-dominated, maybe 10 years back, but that's not any longer. And the reason why more women naturally gravitated towards the communications industry and the PR industry, because women are natural storytellers, they are naturally collaborative and they are very social. They also excel in soft skills and language skills, which explains why they gravitated naturally towards this profession. Also, back then like a decade back, the profession was not very lucrative and hence it did not actually attract male talent. But this industry's changed dramatically, I would say in the last decade or so, and it's so constantly changing. And I think COVID has pushed our clients and the communications industry over the technology tipping point. So employees, whether they are male or female, they need to know things like new digital skills, platforms, and channels that didn't really exist a short while back. And I think...

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Show Notes:  I don't want to brag but in two weeks we will be 25 episodes old. So, I would like to thank my wonderful guests and listeners across the world for their unstinting support. The Elephant in the Room podcast is my continuous listening and learning project so I am pleased to say that it can be yours too - It is available on CIPR CPD Happy coincidence that today is Earth day and this episode is about the imperatives for gender diversity. A recent report places empowering women and girls as the second most important solution(amongst 76) for curbing global warming to 2 degree celsius. Gender equality is central to the SDGs any slowdown in achieving that will compromise the ability to achieve all of the SDG goals. 2030 is on the horizon and all stakeholders need to really hunker down if we are to meet targets on gender empowerment. In this episode I share stories about the what governments and businesses are doing and can do to ensure that girls and women are able to grow and thrive; my association with PRADAN; the UK governments Pledge for Progress initiative; the world benchmarking alliance; the business case and the moral imperative; legislation as a lever of progress; data etc.... If you are passionate about ensuring women's voices are heard and they have a seat on the table Follow the show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Memorable Passages from the episode 👉🏾 Hey everyone thank you for tuning in. I am your host Sudha Singh. I have been planning this episode for sometime so I am really excited to be here. Spring has sprung, the sun is shining and hope is in the air. The vaccine programme in the UK has largely been successful; and we are emerging from the lockdown gradually. There was some seasonal levity with the caterpillar wars between M&S and Aldi and there is absolutely no reason to dwell on a recent government race report - because reports don't necessarily drive action.  👉🏾 But first I must thank all of you for helping The Elephant in the Room podcast get to where we are today. We have just two more episodes to go before we hit quarter century. I will forever be grateful to my guests who have been unstintingly supportive and the wonderful audiences from across the world who have deepened my faith in the raison d'etre of the podcast. I have been privileged to have conversations with inspiring guests from across the world on issues related to societal conflict, organisational purpose and how individuals and businesses can embed equity and inclusion into their DNA. Launching the podcast and my consultancy was about finding my 'why' my purpose, the rest is going to be about finding the how. How can I make the world a better place, how I can help my clients be better, do better. We are doing some things and striving to do more. So stay tuned.  👉🏾 In this episode I want to focus on the imperatives for gender diversity for a sustainable future. However, let me start by talking about something that is personal to me. If you have been following the news you must have heard that from Friday 23rd April India will be added to the list of red countries. The announcement was neither surprising nor unexpected considering the sudden and catastrophic rise of COVID cases in India. What this means for me and millions of Indian diaspora is that it is going to be awhile longer before we can meet family and friends. So, no trade deal and no travel for the foreseeable future - there is really no way to put a positive spin to this. In my case nearly 13months since I met my mother who lives on her own, has limited mobility and suffered from a particularly bad bout of COVID late last year. I was gutted for myself but more so for my mother. For most of my adult life now I have straddled the two continents due to my caring responsibilities. The situation is not unique to me however, it is the same for millions of women(and men perhaps) across the world. A 2021 research found...

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Shownotes:  The past year has been brutal for women and gender equality - it has severely set back progress made in the last decade. And it is acknowledged that governments and the private sector will have to work twice as hard to reverse the trend. My guest this week Shamistha Selvaratnam speaks about the need for transformative change to achieve gender equality. She stresses on the need for companies to really shift their approach from avoiding gender-related impacts and disclosing what is necessary to meet legislative requirements to proactively addressing inequalities." Shamistha is the Gender Lead at the World Benchmarking Alliance (WBA) an organisation established to measure and rank the 2,000 most influential companies globally on their contributions to the UN Sustainable Development Goals. These keystone companies spread across 74 countries with combined revenues of $43 trillion have a critical role to play in whether the SDGs are accomplished or not.  In this episode she speaks about her background; the work of the WBA; using data for insights and not as an endpoint; why companies need to stop focusing on only preventing harm to women to taking actions that have positive impact on women......  Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-elephant-in-the-room/id1540074396 (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-elephant-in-the-room/id1540074396) Follow the show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts 👉🏾 Well, the world benchmarking Alliance also known as the WBA is a multi-stakeholder Alliance. So our work and vision has always centered around the sustainable development goals. We're very focused on building a movement to measure and incentivise business impact towards a sustainable future that works for everyone. And we believe urgent action is needed to put the world on a more sustainable path. And that business has a key role to play in driving this change. So it's in this context that we are focused on developing benchmarks, that measure and compare the performance of the 2000 most influential companies globally on the sustainable development goals and we make these benchmarks free and available for everyone. And we share them with a broad set of stakeholders, including investors. And in doing so what we're aiming to do is to create a system that recognises leadership, but also creates accountability for those companies that continue to lag behind. And our movement is very much so grounded in our Alliance of over 200 organisations. So our allies represent a large mix of voices aligned with the universality of the sustainable development goals. And together, one of the key transformations that we see there is a need for, is a social transformation and to contribute to that being brought about, we are focused on transforming the role of business in society to ensure that businesses respect human rights. Provide and promote decent work and act ethically.  👉🏾 So perhaps it's useful to tell you a little bit about myself and what led me to doing work in the gender area at the WBA. I am the Gender Lead at the World Benchmarking Alliance. And as you can probably hear from my accent, I am Australian born and raised. My parents migrated to Australia from Sri Lanka over 30 years ago. And I've been very fortunate to travel to Sri Lanka a couple of times. And what has always struck me is how different my life is as a woman, purely due to the fact that I was born in a developed country.  👉🏾 The truth of the matter is that it's very likely that my life would be very different had I been born in Sri Lanka. And by being born in Australia, I've been afforded countless opportunities that women in Sri Lanka are not afforded. And a key one is the level of education that I received. And that is really what prompted me to ensure that I use the opportunities that I have had to drive change for the...

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Shownotes Reams have been written in the recent past about the future of work. But, long before COVID upended beliefs on WFH and remote working, Hoxby founded in 2015 had a vision to create a world of work without bias; without the barriers to inclusivity created by the 9-5, one size fits all system. Today, this hugely successful social experiment has a workforce of over 1000 people spread across 30 countries and works with some of the world's biggest businesses including Unilever, Merck, Amazon Webservices, AIA, Warner Media etc.  Full disclosure I have been stalking Hoxby for years and last year when I launched The Purpose Room it was hugely inspired by what it's founders were trying to do.  A couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to have a wide ranging conversation with Ben Foulkes MD Hoxby Futureproofing. Listen to him speak about on the future of work; hierarchies; relevancy of HR; on what makes organisational culture; fostering creativity & innovation in a dispersed workforce etc👇🏾 Follow the show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Memorable passages from the episode:  👉🏾 So Hoxby's purpose is to create a happier and more fulfilled society through a world of work without bias. And that really manifests itself with a, a principle, if you like, that everyone should be able to choose when and where they work. So for those, that don't know Hoxby it's a little bit of a social experiment. It's not your typical organisation. There are no employees for instance. Everyone within Hoxby is a freelancer. So we avoid the employee-employer, relationship and that dynamic. And we come together in teams to work on projects. And we do that with some of the biggest companies in the world, like Unilever and Merck and People like this, and smaller businesses as well. And we do it across a range of services from marketing comms and PR to strategic consulting. And I lead the future-proofing, which is the sort of strategic consulting arm of the business.  👉🏾 Yeah, it's a good question. It's a word I've been hearing an awful lot more. Everyone's talking about future-proofing at the moment. Organisations face a whole bunch of different forces. And a lot of them have been accelerated by the pandemic over the last year. So we've seen technology has radically changed the way that we can and the way that we enable work. So everything from cloud computing through to the video conferencing software which we're using right now to AI and how it's fundamentally changing the way that jobs and tasks can be performed. You've also, on the other hand got the way that people work. So an awful lot of forces are changing the way our careers, and we're going to be potentially pandemics, permitting, living longer, working longer, having this one job for life notion is a little bit archaic and a little bit that's certainly going to change. So what we're seeing is workforce demands really shifting to wanting more flexible ways of working, to be more purpose-driven to use our time for a meaningful end. And then also to be able to pick and choose a bit more about, about when and where we work and, and to be more like that. So you've got these kinds of forces and the fact that we need to, we organisations need to be cognisant of that to, to adapt. 👉🏾 And what we're seeing is that actually, it's organisations that are more agile and more able to adapt are more likely to survive in the future. So in the past controlling natural resources, controlling factors of production and scale and economies of scale were really important. Today it's much more about agility, agility to respond to technology and agility to respond to the needs of the workforce. And so Hoxby future-proofing helps clients to understand these forces and to adapt to it. So it's sort of two things it's really, how do you both actually be truly agile and then how do you kind of create the right conditions to empower people? And we'll come on to that I'm sure in

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For everyone working to tackle issues around inequality and racism it has been a frustrating week so the long Easter weekend is just what we need to recharge and renew our faith in what we do.   The proverbial ray of sunshine today was listening to Dr Doyin Atewologun in the 20th episode (yay 20 already) of The Elephant in the Room podcast.  She has a long list of accomplishments to her credit including being an honorary fellow at Trinity College, Oxford; a former Director of Gender, Leadership & Inclusion Centre at Cranfield School of Management; an academic adviser on the Parker Steering Committee and being nominated to the People Management magazine's Top 20 Diversity and Inclusion ‘Power List’ for 2020 etc.   In this episode Dr Doyin talks about racism, female Non-Executive Directors (NEDs) the “1 by 21” campaign, the role of legislation and targets, the ‘Women to watch’ list among other things.  The soft spoken Dr also addresses head on questions on the efficacy of Unconscious Bias training and the debate around Black & Minority Ethnic (BME)/Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) groupings…….. Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-elephant-in-the-room/id1540074396 (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-elephant-in-the-room/id1540074396) Follow the show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts 👉🏾 Thank you Sudha, a real pleasure to be here. So I am speaking to you from the UK, I have lived in the UK for many years, over 25 years, but I was born in Nigeria and I often say that I loved, lived and absolutely embraced my life in Nigeria. And when I moved to the UK at about age 17 that's when I realised I was black. Growing up in terms of my childhood and my education I had a great family, a loving family and extended family. Both my parents were professionals, we were like third-generation university educated. I went to a really good school. My brother went to a private school. I went to one of those old you know, like colonial legacy schools. Therefore had very good education and had many people in my life who were successful you know, in all sorts ways. So there was no question about kind of like talent or reaching your capacity or your potential. And in one of those conversations with different people, I found out about psychology. I found out because my auntie is a psychologist and I didn't know what psychology was then. But she said, Oh, it's about people and you understand people. And I said, Oh, I love people. And, so that again, you know beyond interest and passion. I thought it was great. So that was the first like phase of my life. I'll just spend just a few moments, just talking a little bit more about how that evolved over, time in terms of later education. So I was very interested in psychology and I was able to study psychology at university and do a master's in psychology at work because I was interested in how people make sense of work. And then I became very curious, like I said, when I moved to the UK and started understanding what it means to be yourself at work or to be your best self at work. I just started asking questions based on my experiences and other people's experiences and my observations about your being able to bring your best self to work differs depending on who you are and how the environment sees you. And so therefore I was very interested in understanding the psychology of difference and in some ways, those are some of the key experiences or phases that brought me to where I have now.  👉🏾 Gosh, it feels like the first time for some people doesn't it, but you know what? I think It's more of a spotlighting of what is already there, what is already present. And, I know when we, in many conversations, we talk about how the pandemic has shifted things because the pandemic has taken us back indoors. We don't have many different experiences, varied, rich as the experiences as we had. So...

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Dr Bola Olabisi my guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast is the founder of the Global Women Inventors and Innovators Network. She set it up in 1998 in recognition of the challenges that women face in bringing commercially viable products to market. Over the past two decades she has worked tirelessly to spotlight inventors and innovators across the world. I was lucky to be a part of her journey when she launched the awards in Africa a long time ago and was privileged to be invited to be a judge alongside an eminent panel for the 22nd GlobalWIIN awards last year.  In the past Bola has been a Member of the Advisory Group of the European Commission’s Network of Women In Decision Making In Politics And The Economy; a consultant on Global Innovation Outlook under Women’s Entrepreneurship for IBM and a Governor on the Board of the University of East London.  Recognised in 2019, by the Mayor of London as one of the 100 WOMEN THAT MAKE LONDON GREAT listen to Dr Olabisi speak about her passion and what drives her 👇🏾  Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/ Follow the show on your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Listen to the audiogram here 👇🏾 Shownotes 👉🏾 At the time, I don't think that I went out looking to set up the GlobalWIIN network.  I happened to stumble into a gap. And I've been brought up to be that kind of person where you see the need to bridge that gap and you just go for it. If you feel that you have the capabilities to do it. And so I've found that at that time, there were very little that was known about inventors both men and women. Historically we had more male inventors very very few women were known to have invented anything. In most cases, they would tell about Marie Curie and that will be the end of it. And there was a need to be able to show that we do have the intelligence. Women have the capabilities. And I felt that somehow we hadn't fully utilised and promoted what women were capable of doing. I thought, what could I do about it? One of the things that I do know how to do is to network and to be able to bring together a huge amount of expertise, knowledge and encouragement from people that I know in order to set up the network that specialising in putting the spotlight on women, inventors and innovators. 👉🏾 I quickly realised that this was an area that we needed to look at and applied for a PhD, I needed to do more research. And I was already working in this particular area. I felt that we needed to promote more role models of ingenious women and the role that they play in society. I was on the right track in terms of the work that I was doing, that I was partnering with the right kind of partners. Many of them within these educational institutions, being able to take that on board and move it into a direction that would advance the women who at the time have a very challenging journey to be able to move up the ladder. Now in terms of the European funded project that you speak about I would say it's the same sort of thing in the sense that we had a lot of women who are working extremely hard, who are bringing their remarkable work, but very little was being put in terms of putting the spotlight on their achievements. And I felt that if you're not in a leadership position, it can be extremely hard to influence decisions. So you need to be successful. You need to be able to make those decisions.  👉🏾 And I was so delighted when I was asked where the GlobalWIIN would be a partner in this EU funded research project, which cuts across five countries. And we looked at the results. We did our research. We looked at women innovators in particular and tried to see how, when bringing their innovative ideas within the workplace, How is it being received? Are they easily seen as a challenge or are they seen as an invaluable asset within the workplace? And how do they incorporate them at top...

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Shownotes An FT reviewer described the book as having ‘the most refreshing approach to diversity…. So, when Pooja Sachdev co-author of 'https://www.rewireconsulting.com/how-we-work (Rewire: A Radical Approach to Tackling Diversity and Difference)' agreed to be a guest I had a long list of questions for her. It was essential reading for the programme I did at INSEAD on gender diversity and I was fascinated with the essential premise behind the book.  In this episode Pooja Sachdev talks about taking a broader, braver and more systemic approach to tackling organisational culture and mindset; the six lenses that drive culture and behaviour. We also explore the knee jerk response in the last year to issues of systemic racial inequalities by organisation and her advise on three things organisations can do to be more inclusive.  My favourite question was about her reference to HR as ‘Poachers turned gamekeepers’  Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/ (https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/) Follow on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Memorable passages from interview:  👉🏾 Thank you very much for having me Sudha it's a pleasure to be here. So my journey, I guess like a lot of people these days, hasn't been a straight line. I see myself, I suppose, as a mix of identities, I've moved countries twice. I've lived in very different parts of the world. As you know, I was born in India. I moved to the States as a teenager to study in Wisconsin. I went to college there for four years, and then I moved to London in 1999. So I've been here a very long time, and I very much see myself as a Londoner. But in my heart, I guess, as a dual home. It's Mumbai and London, and I still have very strong ties with India. I have a sense of roots there. So, I don't know if you had that experience, but you know, you get to that point where you've actually lived away from your country of birth longer than you've lived.... So I've been here over 20 years. So, you know, at that point you have to, I guess, psychologically, you shift a little bit and you create an identity for yourself that's a mixture of the different geographies that have influenced you. So I suppose like a lot of other people, I've got a mixed view of how I see myself and I've kind of journeyed through these three continents through the course of my life. So that's the kind of the personal side.  👉🏾 On the professional side, I guess my background is in psychology. I studied psychology and education in the States initially I wanted to be a teacher. But when I came to the UK, I realised that I would have to retrain to teach here. So I couldn't afford to do that at that stage. So I took the first job I could get and I ended up working in market research, moved to employee research. And finally, I got really interested in the human side of business and human psychology. What makes us happy at work, what drives motivation, the meaning of work and fulfilment. So I ended up doing a Master's in OccupationalPsychology and my work right now is very broadly in the organisational development space and in between all of that, I also trained as a counsellor as a psychotherapist. So these are the different kind of, I guess milestones, in my career journey and all of those influence the work that I do now.  👉🏾 And I think you tend to take a different lens on the world when you've got a mixture of identities within you and you've kind of moved countries and you know, also, and it's the same within my career. Like every piece of work that I do, I have a kind of a counselling human psychology lens, but I also have a research and evidence lens as well as the business psychology. So I think it does enrich you personally and professionally to have that you know, like kaleidoscope view. 👉🏾 The very first line in the book is ‘This book was born out of frustration’ and that's really true. I didn't set

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LINKEDIN I met her early last year at F1 Recruitment’s Let’s Be Bold About Race event which she was hosting as worldwide Head of Culture & Inclusion M&C Saatchi. So, I was totally chuffed when she accepted my invitation to be a guest on The Elephant in the Room  Previously as a Diversity & Inclusion expert she has advised the U.K. Advertising & Media Industry Diversity Taskforce and the IPA's Leadership Talent Group. In this episode she talks about 👇🏾 👉🏾 Being comfortable with her identity 👉🏾 Her belief that our liberations are tied to each other. 👉🏾 The role of the Chief Diversity Organisation in the organisation 👉🏾 Her advise on how organisations can be more inclusive  👉🏾 Organisational purpose and inclusion  👉🏾 People who inspire her and much more Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Listen to the audiogram here 👇🏾

TWITTER In this episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast my guest Sereena Abbassi talks about her identity, her belief that all our liberations are tied to each other and shares plenty of great advise on how organisations can be more inclusive.  Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Listen to the audiogram here 👇🏾

Shownotes I met her early last year at F1 Recruitment’s Let’s Be Bold About Race event which she was hosting as worldwide Head of Culture & Inclusion M&C Saatchi. So, I was totally chuffed when she accepted my invitation to be a guest on The Elephant in the Room  As a Diversity & Inclusion expert Sereena has previously advised the U.K. Advertising & Media Industry Diversity Taskforce and the IPA's Leadership Talent Group. In this episode she talks about 👇🏾 👉🏾 Being comfortable with her identity 👉🏾 Her belief that our liberations are tied to each other. 👉🏾 The role of the Chief Diversity Organisation in the organisation 👉🏾 Her advise on how organisations can be more inclusive  👉🏾 Organisational purpose and inclusion  👉🏾 People who inspire her and much more Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Memorable passages from the interview:  👉🏾 Pleasure to be with you this morning. So what can I share with you? So, my father is Persian Iranian and came to the U.K just before the Iranian revolution of 1979. My dad is an immigrant and my mother is British, Jamaican and my great granddad came from Jamaica and then brought over my dad, a few years later. So, Jamaican as well as Persian Iranian and I very much identify as both as well as British. I was born in London educationally, I lived part of my childhood or teenage hood in the countryside. Other parts in London, have lived and moved to Iran when I was 18 for eight months. So, I lived in Tehran and I have lived in few different parts of the world the Netherlands, Spain and America as well. I love to travel. 👉🏾 Actually, I think I'm quite the opposite. I'm all of my identities at the same time. Yet I think naturally, when I'm with my Iranian family, for instance, it pulls out my Persianess perhaps even more. Thus when I'm perhaps with my Jamaican family that it might pull out my Jamaicanness more. But I very much have. I embody all of my identities at the same time. I don't try to suppress any of them. I don't try to assimilate and just. Yeah, just a real celebration of all of them. I love talking about my identity. I can't put a label on it. I don't have a label. I'm just me. 👉🏾 I am I'm very comfortable with who I am. Yeah, I don't allow others to define who I...

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ShowNotes Advita Patel my guest on The Elephant in the Room Podcast is on a mission to empower women of colour in the PR Industry. A Board member of the CIPR and founder of Comms Rebel, last year she founded A Leader Like me with her co-founder Priya Bates to help career ambitious women of colour. Later in the year the duo launched the Diversity in PR conference(Oct 2020) and Diversity in Action conference(Mar2021) and have ambitious plans to broaden the programme by opening it to other groups. In this wide ranging conversation we speak about her journey to becoming an entrepreneur,  👉🏾 Priorities as a Board Member of the CIPR 👉🏾 Inspiration to setting up A Leader Like Me  👉🏾 The importance of networks and networking  👉🏾 The London vs North divide 👉🏾 The people who inspire her and much  Listen to the full episode here 👇🏾 https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts Memorable passages from the conversation: 👉🏾 Thank you so much for inviting me on to be a guest I've listened to your previous podcast and I've enjoyed it immensely. So it's a privilege to be here with you today. Comms Rebel for me started in January, 2020, like you said. And it was because I think I got to a certain point in my career where I felt like I needed something a little bit different and I wanted to be in control of my destiny. I know that sounds a little bit cheesy, for anyone that’s listening. And I think age plays a big part in this as well. I was approaching quite a big birthday. I knew that I had greater things to achieve still, and I felt a bit suffocated, I suppose, in certain roles that I was working in. And I wanted to do something that I could control and had a sense of purpose under. So it wasn't an overnight decision, you know, so I didn't wake up one morning and go right that’s it. I'm doing Comms rebel and I'm cracking on. It was a two year journey. So for two years I dug a bit deep in terms who of am I? What do I want to do in this world? What's my purpose? How do I want to kind of grow and develop my career and work towards Comms Rebel. And launched it in January, 2020. And then as you know and as people who are listening will know the pandemic started two months after I launched. So it was definitely an interesting time for Comms Rebel. Definitely interesting times.  👉🏾 So I'm just going to go back a little bit. So I decided that I was going to be part of the Chartered Institute of Public Relations, which is our professional membership for people who work within communications and PR. I've been a member for a while, but I've been a volunteer for them for a roundabout seven years. And I started off being a volunteer in the internal communications group, which is called CIPR Inside and worked on various different projects. And then eventually became Chair for them for two years. I recognised that there weren't many people who looked like me in the profession. So there weren't many women of colour. There weren't many people of colour, not only women of colour. And if there were, we were probably in certain roles, and not many directors or senior directors in that role.  👉🏾 So when I looked at CIPR as a whole, and it's a profession. I thought, how can I be part of this community and incite change? So rather than being an armchair critic, and we'll talk about that a bit later on Sudha, but I am against being an armchair critic. I don't believe in sitting there being a keyboard warrior and complaining about how unfair life is and how things are not right. I'll always go back to, well, what can I do about it? Be the change I want to see. And that's exactly what I did with CIPR. So I became a board member for CIPR because I wanted to try and bring some change, and also inspire others who may look at me and see a woman of colour and think "actually if she can do it, why can't I go there?" Why...

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Shownotes:

For the 15th Episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, my guest is Carmel O’Toole. Carmel is the daughter of Irish migrants, left school at 18 to work as a journalist, was a part of the world’s first televised regeneration project at Channel 4, and now works as a lecturer in PR with Sheffield Halam University. Her research interests are local & regional media and crisis communications. She has also co-authored a book with Adrian Roxan - Local Democracy, Journalism and Public Relations. In this episode we discuss diversity in higher education; social mobility; skills for the future; impact of austerity on public sector communications and local communities; inclusive communications etc.

Listen to the full episode here

https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/

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Memorable passages from the podcast:

Thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this. So I'm the daughter of a migrant worker. I mention that because it's relevant to the wider diversity discussion. So I'm the daughter of an Irish person who came to live in Trafford, in Manchester, who fought with the RAF in the second world war, and then trained as a psychiatric nurse and worked in the NHS. And my mom worked as an auxiliary in the NHS. So both of them came to this country and contributed, robustly to the fortunes and well-being of this country. Sorry, I don't mean to labour the point, but I think it is relevant to the wider discussion we have about, diversity within our society.

So I was brought up in a household with five kids, not lots of money, so working-class initially, but, by virtue of my dad's progression through the ranks in the NHS, I would say, probably landed somewhere in middle classdom in my teens. And that's part of the story. I actually left school at 18 going into 19 to work on a local paper. So I worked on the wonderful Belper news in mid-Derbyshire and began to learn my craft as a journalist. So covering all the local stories from parish council meetings, to church jumble sales, the greyhound racing, pigeon results, the rugby match reports, so everything and anything which typifies life in a local paper.

I started on local newspapers and moved to other local newspapers. So mostly Derbyshire and North Nottinghamshire for about eight years. I was working in the North Notts coalfield area on the works of the Guardian series of newspapers during the miner’s strike of 1984/85. But having driven to work through police roadblocks, and I saw firsthand on the picket line how, working people who were campaigning and fighting to save their jobs were treated by an agency of the state. It wasn't a time to sit on the fence and I've carried that with me ever since. That was a really significant turning point for me to fight for what is fair, to champion what is fair, which brings us again to the relevancy of this story, to arc our conversation here, which is about social mobility and diversity in society more generally. Then had a year out to have my son, my first child. And after a year I got a job at Derbyshire County council in their press office, which was a wonderful place to work.

I became joint head of communications at Rotherham borough council with a wonderful colleague, Eileen Brooks, who was an award-winning Yorkshire post journalist. So the two of us ultimately job shared that role, which was quite unusual at the time. At that point yes, I saw an opportunity to work for Channel Four, as a communications manager for what was dubbed the world's first televised community regeneration project. The idea was that a film crew led by the wonderful Kevin McCloud, who we're more familiar with, on Grand Designs, would chart and track and they would chronicle the progress of a series of community regeneration projects, which would very much be community-led. So it was a very unusual role actually, it was only supposed to last a year, but I ended up working for Channel Four for about four years as I moved on to other projects working for them.For me to get a foothold was quite unusual at the time I was their person in the North, I was sometimes dubbed. Certainly wasn't typical of those they recruited. So finished up there and ended up doing consultancy work, and was invited in to start developing a PR course at Sheffield Hallam University, which is fantastic. They invited me on the basis of my practitioner experience and 10, nearly 11 years later, I'm still there and absolutely loving it. It's the most amazing place to work, being in higher education is such a privilege. Having access to teaching and supporting young people who are going to go out there and be ambassadors for their craft. So I think that in a nutshell is where I got from The Belper News where I am now.

That’s a good question. I find still sadly and universities who have worked very hard to make themselves more equitable and to balance in terms of recruitment, gender and diversity issues more broadly. You still,find yourselves in meetings where by virtue of your gender where you have to shout louder and you have to be better than your male colleagues,. And I'm sure there are other diversity sectors that would find that to be the case. So that you'll find yourself next to a male colleague who said precisely what you said five minutes earlier. And they're the ones that get, "Oh yes great idea, Barry. Great idea!" You think what's the difference? Yeah, that happens all the time they are working on it and it is slow progress, painfully slow. So I supposed the Elephant in the Room is sometimes though we don't speak about that enough and perhaps we don't call it out enough. But It's exhausting to do it all the time, you know to have to say that every time a male colleague is championed against a female colleague or a colleague from a BAME community. So you try and do it by example. But I do think you have to be better and you have to shout louder. Which is not something I like, I don't like loud voices. I don't think they're the most interesting. I think quieter voices those who are introspective and very often the people who've gotten the most interesting things to say. Unfortunately, those prejudices mitigate against them being heard as well and as effectively as they should be.

No, I don't. I think there's always more that they can do. I think it is down to us. Universities are time poor and they're very understaffed and that situation is getting worse. There's far too much emphasis from my perspective on income generation, not enough emphasis on supporting research into new areas. I think the PR industry is beginning to acknowledge and, doing some good work actually to try to acknowledge that there are gaps that need addressing. I noticed the CIPR's state of the profession report this time included a question for the first time on social mobility and it doesn't make for happy reading. It's basically social mobility is going backwards, in terms of ethnic representation in the industry. If you're Irish, there are probably about 3% of you in the industry. If you're Indian, I think it's about 2%, Caribbean 1% and it's woeful. And apart from it being the right thing to do, if you're in a diverse society, it makes sense for your industry to represent that diversity. It also makes good business sense. Not that that should be the driving force for anything but it makes good business sense because then you have insider experience to draw upon to make the work and the creative campaigns that you do more relevant and more compelling and more insightful and better informed. So it's a no brainer, but it doesn't seem to have attracted the support that it should have done and if anything things are getting worse. One of the most dismal parts of that report, the state of the profession report was around, recruitments of those surveyed, you've got about a quarter of them come from private education, of those around, over 40% from families where their parents have both been to university. So it's kind of privilege begets privilege, and it's very very hard to break down those barriers. So I don't think the university sector is investing enough in that. And I think it's up to us as academics to champion that in the ways that we see we are doing, but we could do more. And the industry needs to do more. And I think it's beginning to acknowledge that. And I think that that's to its credit, but it needs to happen more quickly. We're all tired of waiting.

I mean, there are different routes and you don't have to do a university degree. It's not a profession to the extent that you have to have a degree or qualification specific, to enter the profession. So, no, strictly, it's not a profession by virtue of that definition. So there's all sorts of routes in, I mean, I would say, cause I work in higher education and for me, the beauty in public relations is that, it's not about information stuffing, although there is a certain amount of factual information giving the old WB Yeats thing about, "it's not the filling of the pail, it's the lighting of the fire". And it's about inspiring. It's about encouraging. Inform young people who will challenge, who will change and be ambassadors and take on those issues themselves.

Just as a story of a very smart student of mine a couple of years ago, he's now successfully working in a leading agency in London. Really bright student came from a very ordinary background but you could just tell supremely talented. Went for an interview at,but a leading London agency, a global PR agency for a chance to do an internship, actually. And as he walked into reception, there was a Damien Hirst artwork in reception. And he said there were nine candidates I think for this internship, so he'd done very well to get to that point. And he said I haven't a clue who Damien Hirst is not a clue. He said, but all the rest of them, there were talking about a) skiing holidays and this Damien Hirst artwork. He said I just didn't know anything about it. So I felt a complete fish out of water. But, the moral of the story is actually, he was so bright and so engaging that he really won them over. And he actually got the internship over the kind of what you consider might be the preferred candidate. So he did really really well. When he started at the agency again. And he struggled because of that, that fitting in that kind of social currency that makes people feel comfortable, you know, that this kind of common background issues. But he's doing fine now, but needed a lot of mentoring. A lot of support, a lot of reassurance to say, you are as good as any of those people. You're better, probably. So stick with it. Don't let those barriers put you off.

I think it can be quite exclusive. I confess that very often. I don't see myself represented in kind of some of the more high profile representatives of PR. I find the language, and some of that network a bit exclusive.It's about being a bit more informed and acknowledging that those unseen barriers are still very much there. And, you know, trying to address that head-on.

There was a wonderful documentary by the BBC's media editor Amol Rajan, called Breaking into the Elite. It was a year and a half ago, and dismally, it looked at some of the stats from think it was, the London School of economics. Looking at basically when the top companies are recruiting, and if you've got a Russell group, so these sort of elite group of universities, a Russell group university, ended up with a 2:2, and maybe someone from, I don't know, Sheffield Hallam University with their 2:1 or a first, the Russell group candidate is more likely to get it, or the Oxbridge candidates is more likely. But, it also talks about, the social capital that, what's your background? What do your parents do? Are you a mirror image of me in that they want to appoint those that reflect their own image.

I suppose I look to my own role. I think through our industry organisations, which are beginning to take up that cudgel and that's brilliant. I think by our own conduct in not pulling up the drawbridge behind us. I've spoken to many colleagues at Chartered Institute and PRCA events where they talk about their own interests. And they don't think about championing the interest of those who are coming behind. So, you know, there's some lovely people in both organsations, but there are also those who don't see it as their responsibility to champion and encourage that next generation in the right way and to acknowledge the barriers that are there. My view

is it's about identifying the talent and championing that and supporting and challenging those students who rule themselves out on the basis of their background, their confidence, the ones who are frightened to come out from behind their email. But, you know, they're brilliant. They just need encouraging. The industry should take greater collective responsibility and there are signs of movement. It isn't happening quickly enough. And it is pretty depressing that we are in 2020 and social mobility is going backwards.

It is a very difficult time, but I do think somewhere in the midst of the gloom,there's an opportunity. We, my colleagues and I had to learn very quickly from March onwards, the first lockdown, how to teach online. So recording our lectures, learning about new software.So interactive seminars online, it's a completely different way of working. I'm teaching a final year group of students. That are going to graduate in sort of may June next year.Our assignment which is about a client proposal and pitch from a choice of different scenarios would be set in the time of COVID. So that they had to then address head-on the barriers that presented themselves to commercial organisations, seeking to have high profile campaigns and high-profile media coverage at a time when it's very difficult to cut through on their own. They needed to address that in order to equip them to go out into the world where COVID probably still be with us next, next May, June. I know things are moving in the right direction, but to make them as marketable and as current and as relevant and as savvy as possible. So trying to encourage them to address issues around COVID: How do we work within it, learn from what industry is telling us they're having to do. I do think there is going to be more online and remote work in going forward. One because I think there's an appetite for that within the workforce and also it's about resourcing. And it's also in a potentially a smarter way of working.

Whilst there is a downturn in recruitment, we're also beginning to see adverts for jobs, which talk about working agilely. More employers are treating their employees as grownups and trusting us to actually get on with the job and recognising that, we do more work when we're not constantly interrupted. So I think that in the midst of all the gloom and the downturn, its’ probably an optimistic sign for the future, that things will pick up and they might well be done differently. And I can't help, but think that when you talk quite rightly, London centric and London agency recruitments, those opportunities, those changes in practice and changes in employment might well pave the way for breaking down some of those recruitment barriers sort of North-South.

So we have undergraduate PR courses and a masters, and they're quite small numbers you're looking at, in any year group about 30, 35 students. So you get to know them, which for me is lovely because what a privilege it is to work closely and try and encourage and support young people going out into the world that's fantastic. It's difficult, you know, online teaching is no replacement for face-to-face, but somewhere in the middle, we've come up with a compromise that does seem to work for the moment. So recorded lectures, they have found far more accessible and useful to work with than they perhaps thought. And also they've had to get their heads around just as I have. It was about talking and listening to them. But also this was happening before COVID, levels of anxiety amongst young people, anxiety and mental health issues more generally. It's on the increase, has been for some time, but COVID has accelerated and exacerbated that just as it has the move to online and digital. So I have quite a few conversations in any given week with students who need signposting to professional support around mental health issues. And I think myself and colleagues have to be quite, nimble and flexible about how we support those students. It’s complex territory and, you know, I'm not a mental health professional, so I can only signpost and offer support. What do you believe are the key skills for PR and communications professionals of the future?

More listening is top of my list, actually.Listening to what people are talking about. Listening to what are the themes out there, there's political, economic, social, technological themes. Listening and doing your homework before you pitch in with your ideas and your script and your narrative. So actually having a proper, respectful two-way dialogue with those people that you're trying to reach. People don't want to be preached at anymore. I think it's taken us a while to learn that actually the smart way to be is to actually listen to your audiences first and then consider what might be a very creative and compelling way to reach them. In terms of skills, writing skills are still top of the list. They've got to be able to write really well around any subject. It's about being an instant expert for whatever the period of the campaign is on any given subject. And that actually journalism plays well into that. And it's about being great at verbal communications, but written and verbal communications top of the list still. And I know when the PRCA, the industries have done their surveys. For clients, it's, it's still very much about, copywriting and writing skills. And devising strategies, social media doesn't come top of the list. Some of my students think being able to operate on social media is the first and last skill they would ever have to have. It's fine, but it's not the full story. It's part of that bag of skills, which are essential. So I'd say writing and listening, incredibly important. And we teach a module around crisis communication, crisis management, given the 24 seven sort of nature of the media world that we're in, having good crisis management skills are increasingly a part of the currency of a successful graduate. Being able to think on their feet and anticipate, and plan and recover and, and manage a crisis.

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Many of you are familiar with @kiwigirl in UK. For this episode of the podcast we have a vocal cheerleader for school leavers as my guest. Penny Anderson is also Client Director of Reputation Intelligence at Kantar Media. In this episode Penny talks about her own Elephant in the room, her path to leadership, diversity & inclusion, role models, mental health and well being during the pandemic, learning to accept who she is and strategies to inclusion in the workplace

Listen to the full episode here

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Memorable passages from the conversation:

• ‘The Elephant in the Room’ in the for me is very much around education and around people's backgrounds and the insistence of some companies that you must've achieved a certain educational level, or you must have a degree where actually it's not required. It's such a bug bear of mine. I was asked in a job interview once if I regretted not having a degree and then they actually used the fact that I didn't have a degree to not give me the job. And I was quite glad I didn't get the job because it's not probably somewhere I would have wanted to, to work.Actually, I went to a state school and I didn't go to university and I'm actually pretty pleased with who I am and what I eat. So I get very excitable, over this. And I just want everyone should be treated equally. Judge people on merit and their skills, not the accents and what their father did for a living.
• And right from a very, very early age, I never ever considered anything beneath me are whatever I was asked to do. I would do it the best of my ability if I was filing, answering the phone. And I did them well. So when I actually looked around and thought actually I can be a recruitment consultant. So I asked them. I just said, look, is there a chance for me to become a recruitment consultant and again, they were sort of taken, taken aback, but I think they were quite used to me by then. And they were like, yeah, great. We'll train you up. I was still, probably only 17-18 at the time. I became a recruitment consultant and you know, I asked for a promotion and I got it. I made the decision to leave New Zealand at the age of 20, which now looking back. I think that seems very, very young. But at 20 I packed up a couple of bags of clothes. I had saved 500 pounds which seemed like a huge amount of money at the time. And certainly was 27 years ago. I arrived at Heathrow, got picked up by a girlfriend who lived there already, but I had nowhere to stay. I had no job, got a B&B, got a temp job a few days later and then was made permanent from that temp role. Again, I was working in a recruitment agency, so I'd always just worked in recruitment agencies and I just felt that I needed to go out and actually experience life outside of a recruitment agency so I made, what I believe is probably the best career decision of my life and I accepted a job working for PIMs which I don't know anybody sort of listening and be old enough to remember the [PIMS]. And I worked really closely with Alex who was the MD and he knew everybody in the industry. He basically just introduced me to everybody. And these people that he introduced me to still in my professional life. You've got all the people who we were at the same age and we were all coming up at the same time. They're now running their own agencies, I am now leading a division at Kantar. It was just fantastic and I loved it and I just grasped it with both hands. I went to every networking event. I went to every drinks event, every lunch and just got to know everybody and it was just, it was just incredible. And then after leaving [PIMS] I worked at PR Newswire.
• And then eventually I started work at Precise. Precise was taken over by Kantar and 12 years later, I'm still there. But that's kind of my journey. And as I say, I just believe I have taken every opportunity. I have made the most of it and just made a real effort to speak to as many people as possible. And also I have never, ever, ever forgotten. Mo at FTI who, is a very dear friend of mine and someone that I met 27 years ago when she was at FTI and she once said to me, she said, why do you only invite the senior people to the events? And I thought, well, I just automatically assume that's what they're supposed to do. I just said, no, no, you need to invite the junior people as well, because they might be the ones making the decision. And that was such an important lesson to me.
• So, first of all, I'd probably want to just shake them and say, if you want to do something, make it happen. Do not sit there, waiting for someone to give you an opportunity, decide where you want to work. Have a look on LinkedIn, find out if someone is speaking at a network event, make up excuses to link in with them. Just have the confidence to really reach out, all through my career. I've been willing to do whatever I've needed to do. Be very good natured. No one wants anyone difficult working with them, yeah, it doesn't mean not questioning either.
• You know, that there's a massive cliche, but really the only person that is stopping you to success is you. I never had a plan except that I knew I wanted to be self-sufficient. My mother always, always worked. She was always the, kind of more of the breadwinner in the house. I knew that I didn't want to be reliant on anyone. So I, you know, I think that a lot of my decisions about what I did, meant that it was, you know, in a way that I could be self-sufficient. I also wanted to be someone that people looked up to and actually that people, so as someone who has done okay. And actually, to be respected. But, what I would say to anyone wanting to get into the public relations industry, or indeed in any of the sectors surrounding the public relations industry is go to every single networking event you can. You will be amazed at just how quickly you get known. Find someone who has spoken at an event and drop them an email or a message on LinkedIn saying how much you enjoyed listening to them speak, and you enjoyed this particular part of it.
• And as I say, go to everything, everything is online at the moment. It is more difficult. But actually in some ways, a little bit easier because you can see everybody's name, you can see everybody's faces and you can see everybody who talks. You won't always get a response and you won't always get the response you want, but don't give up.
• I think that to take your first question, I think the industry has definitely changed a lot over the last 27 years.And I do think that there is some way to go. But I also think that organisations like CIPR and PRCA are doing amazing things and I love the apprenticeship scheme from the PRCA. I love the fact that you have to pay your apprentice. If you want to be a member of the PRCA and you want to sign up to that, you have to pay your apprentice. That is such a key step, you can't take an unpaid internship you know, most people can't do that. Particular agencies are doing great things to change the diversity of the PR, sector. I think agencies like, FleishmanHillard Fishburn doing blind CVS, Lansons for years have actively encouraged comm team members to come back after having children and offer huge flexibility around that.
• We need to make it thougha lot clearer in our outreach that the industry doesn't care about your accent, your school, what your parents or your grandparents did and you'll reach your success on merit.Going back to your previous question, what can I do to actually put myself forward? Don't think that, Oh God, you know, I'm probably not going to fit in there. I'm not going to apply for that job. Do apply for that job. Do tell them why you are right for that job, you know, if you don't get an interview and you see a pattern, then do report it to one of the industry bodies. Actually just make your recruitment policies very, just, just have a policy to take whole merit. Um, as I say, I love the blind CV idea because, people think that they can tell a lot about a person by their name, you know, but then how far do you go? There's a lot of work to be done.
• I found it fascinating. When I started working in a recruitment agency, I realised that actually that already meant that I was a couple of tiers above some other people and I couldn't quite figure that out cause we don't really have that New Zealand. New Zealand is genuinely a melting pot andNew Zealand wouldn't have the population it does without, immigrants. And found it extraordinary in my first role in the UK, one of the things I would have to say is what their accent was and did they dress West end or city and we couldn't put them in that organisation because they've got an Essex accent. And I remember sitting and absolutely dumb founded thinking I don't, I didn't really understand what’s going on here. It took me a number of years to realise what people's prejudices actually were. And then a few more years to realise actually I can help fight that and I love it when someone will be on a call and say, oh, well of course, you know, people like us. And then what do you mean? What do you mean? People like us?
• So it's it is about having the confidence in yourself. So certainly, the industry needs to do more to encourage ……. you know to actually join the PR industry. And then actually when you are in the agency or you're in the in-house, then the company themselves, they need to make sure that everybody is given exactly the same opportunities. That someone isn't given promotion because they're the ones that have spoken out in a meeting or they're the ones that have turned up in a smart suit and a Hermes scarf just because that's what their footsie 100 clients will want. Actually, just look beyond that, look beyond someone's appearance, look beyond everything. Can they do the job?
• Yeah, there is actually, I would say this is probably the easiest. This is probably the easiest question you've asked because I really only discovered over the last 15 years that actually the way I am is actually okay. I am enthusiastic. I am genuinely very happy. I don't take any rubbish. I won't deal with that behaviour. I won't stand for bad behaviour. I won't stand for various things. I can be very stubborn. I know, I know these things. I am not perfect. Like, like everybody, I am, I'm not perfect. But,for so long when I was younger, I felt so different and I was too smiley. I was too happy. Everyone around me just seemed to have a bit of a harder edge. I wasn't sort of hard enough. It was about 15, 20 years ago when one of my friends said to me, you do realise, people actually don't care what we do. They just want to spend time with you because they like spending time with you. And I realised that actually the qualities that I have, I should just embrace them. I shouldn't try and fit in anyone else’s mould. Yes, I have a lot to say, as you can tell, I have a lot to say, I will always put my point across. If someone says, has anyone got an opinion on this, I will generally have an opinion and I'm quite happy to share that opinion. I'm not a great one for silence and you know, I used to try and hide that. I still think, oh no, you can't always say anything. You can't always be the one actually. Do you know what, at the age of 47, I think that I have realised that actually, do you know what it's actually quirky. I don't mind being the person that is always enthusiastic. So to my younger self genuinely, I would say, just embrace who you are and embrace your quirks and just, just go with it.
• As a woman we often question ourselves and we often say, Oh gosh, should I be here? Should I, should I be in this position? Should I be leading this meeting? Should I be actually talking to my client like that. As for being a woman, it's been really interesting because I would say that I haven't had too much of a, of an issue with being a woman and, you know, being free to speak my mind. However, there have been roles that I've had, that it's been what I would call a bit of a boys' club. And if you weren't going with them out drinking all night and to various establishments and all the rest of it. If you weren't doing that, then actually the next day, when it came to picking a team for a project, then you probably weren't, you weren't even in the mix or, you know, we didn't want to give that to you because you seem like, you know, you seem stressed at the moment and you've got quite a lot on your plate. Well, okay. You would, you wouldn't say that to a man. We were starting to work for Kantar and in Kantar there are some truly inspirational senior women working there. And I realised that actually they didn't need to go out all night every night and be one of the boys. They could just put their points to the cross, they will listened too. But it was a real culture thing as well. The culture has to be there. I have at times gone back and I've either spoken to senior woman who I've known in the industry and ask them for advice but the main thing I would say is that if you, in your gut, if you feel something is bad behaviour than it probably is bad behaviour. One of my colleagues, somebody who had a very short-lived career at somewhere where I worked said to me once, and why are my jobs always get done last? And I said, well, you need to look at how you speak to people. I said, if you just send an email going, I need this done by the day. And, you know, it doesn't matter how junior the person is doing it. They have an option of whether to do my job first or yours. Do you think they're going to do my job first? When I go, hi, how's your day going? I really appreciate it. When you have a moment, if you could get this done. Its’ simple, things like that.
• That was actually a really difficult question. What inspires me, is to work very, very hard to keep my mental health in check. So I walk for miles every day. I love looking at trees and being in nature. I am also really, really inspired by seeing people grow. People I've encouraged on the way I've worked with so many people over the years that have lack confidence and I love now being in a meeting with some of those people that I met 10-12 years ago, who now sort of stand-up meetings and go, ……..… No, that's not right and then that really inspires me because it shows me that actually, do you know what I'm doing is okay. As I've mentioned before been really inspired by some fantastic senior woman at Kantar, you don't need to be one of the boys in order to proceed. I'm really inspired by women, who have not listened to anyone telling them they can’t.
• I’m, inspired by Alison Clark. I'm inspired by Claire Parsons. These two women are women who have going out of their way throughout their careers, who have reached the highest position anyone can reach in an agency. They have never, ever, ever losttheir human touch. They always make time to speak, to everybody, to actually show proper leadership skills.It would be remiss of me as a Kiwi, not to mention, Jacinda Ardern as well. She is incredibly inspiring and I love the fact that there is a Kiwi woman on the international stage being held up as a great example, one of the great examples of a female leader. She attended a state school. She did go to university. But you know, she was young, she was pregnant and got married and she became prime minister. Now that could probably only happen at the moment somewhere like New Zealand. But I love the fact that that is actually now going to have other countries, sort of look at that or other women look at that and be like, oh yeah, hang on a sec. I can do that too.That one of the main things I love about her is that she lets her personality shine through in everything she does. So whether that's her being smiley and explaining why she's done a certain thing or shown incredible compassion at it awful events that had happened in New Zealand. She's just truly inspirational and I just will watch everything that she does.
• With black lives matter, you know, our CEO stood up and said, look, I know I've done a lot. But I know I could do a lot more. It’s a very brave thing to say. I like the fact that people are saying, yeah, we do, we do have an issue and we do have a disparity with pay, with leadership positions. But I do think that, the first thing that any company should do is they should just take a long, hard look at themselves and be totally truthful. I have been a judge on PRCA awards since the year dot on diversity. I'm always in one of the agency categories. So one of the agencies the year categories and I have always been astounded at the diversity question. When the question is, tell us how diverse your agency is? We have two women on the board and three people from a BAME backgrounds what does that mean? That, that doesn't mean anything. What are those people doing? Are they on the board?, it's a real soap box moment for me and you know, people like to think that they're ticking the black box, but actually, is it, you know, has it genuinely being someone who needed help or is it someone who would have got there on their own in any way.
• Organisations need to be so very aware that for 47-year-old women in a house in Kingston with, lots of parks and my own room to work in everyday, is very very different to someone else who has perhaps flat sharing, is younger and in their first position, they're not getting that networking from an office environment. And my one to ones with my team, with my direct reports, probably half of it is not spent on work-related half of it is. Tell me how you are? And I just listen. I listen to them telling me about what's happening with their family, with their grandparents, with their partners, volunteer work they are doing. All youngster’s volunteer now. I have been blown away by the stories I've heard, honestly blown away. But we need to, we need to really, really listen. We need to listen to our teams and you know, are they struggling and there's different ways of asking them, but you know, how you, how are you finding it? Have you got outside today? We need to make sure that that people are okay. Once we can start mixing again, I think, we are going to have to make a real effort to travel and see our teams as well. Just to check in and see how they're doing. But I think it's going to be, it's going to be very difficult. And that's why, you know, every organisation needs leaders who are very comfortable in their own skin and very comfortable being very personal and giving a bit of themselves. So, you know, sometimes I'm having a really bad day. If I'm speaking to one of my team and they'll say, well, how you doing Pen? I quite happily say, I'm really frustrated today because of this, this has been happening and it makes them open up. Whereas if I sit there and say, oh, everything's...

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She is the author of ‘The Second Coming’ a romantic fiction, published by Harper Collins India; and ‘Resilience - stories of Muslim Women’ published by FrontPage. I recently caught up Shubha Menon to discuss her journey from being a copy writer to author of a chicklit; pivoting to a different genre for her second book and her upcoming passion project.

In this episode she talks about the role of Buddhism in bringing calm into her life; the taboo around bipolar disorder; her difficult childhood and nurturing her own relationship with her daughter.

I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it was for her to hide her condition from colleagues friends and family for the longest time. However, what is admirable is that she has not allowed it to define who she is, author, wife, mother, mental health advisor and friend.

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Listen to the full episode here

https://thepurposeroom.org/podcast/

Memorable passages from the conversation

I sort of stumbled into it. I had, you know, I was always good at writing in school and college. And after college, typically, I didn't know what to do with myself. And my sister knew somebody in a large ad agency and told me to just go and meet her. So I did. And then the creative director gave me a copy test. And there was several other people there who also sat for their copy test. But somehow the creative director he liked mine the most. So, he offered me a job. So, before I even had no time to consider other avenues in life, I had a job. And it was a very large, and very well known advertising agency. So, everybody said you'd be mad to say no to this job. So I took it up, and then I could never get out.

Yes, because you know how it is we write headlines, which are four to five words long. And here are like, I had to write 60,000 words, at least, to finish a book. So when I first started writing, I finished saying everything and what was like two and a half pages. I really didn't know what more to write. So many times, I would ask myself,I think the book is over. But then I only got 3000 words. But somehow, I did it. I had earlier attended a lot of workshops on writing, with a lot of good people. And that helped me

Actually, advertising, it is very limiting for a writer. I must have been looking for another avenue another way to write something else to write. And I didn't really plan it. I used to work in an ad agency those days. And at lunchtime my colleagues and I, all women used to also sit and eat lunch together in one small room in the corner. I remember it so well. And the conversation every day would be about, marriage is so boring. And that client is so good looking. And I wish I could have an affair with that client. Then I realised thatall of us were at that age and stage, where we have children, we were married. And I think all of us except maybe one had quite given up on ourselves in terms of,put on weight. So there was so many, common things but one thing that really stuck out for me was that how everybody's wanting that romance in their marriage, and they're all missing it. And so this book started forming in my head,there is nobody writes about older women and, and their desires. And romance is only supposed to be for 18 year old girls and boys. While everybody talks about marriage, as to the thing that happens to you, but once it happens, you realise that it's not what I'd signed up for. So, nobody really had written, I felt about the feelings of women like me and all my friends, and their feelings. So, I thought that it needs writing. So that's how I started writingthe first book.

Yeah, but the problem is that the world thinks you've totally changed, for the world, because you're married and you have children. It's like, there can't be any romance in this person,they can't be a need desire for romance, this person is married has a child closed chapter. But even the married woman is looking for admiration. Even she wants compliments. She does want romance and nobody acknowledges that I felt even the women themselves don't quite acknowledge it.

Our lives have also become so mechanical in so many ways. Both husband and wife go for work, come in the evening tired. There’re things to be done at home it's also a factor of how much time you spend with each other.

I wasn't really trying to write. I had written my book Second Coming. And then I was actually planning to write my book on bipolar disorder, which is something that I'm doing now. And I took a break after the book all this publicity and so many interviews Shabnam runs an NGO called Anhad and they have this, very cultural side to them. And they would host these talks with wonderful people, you know, so if you went for the Anhad Baat chit sessions, you could listen to a Bollywood director or a Dhrupad singer, or a Thumri singer, or a Sufi Kathak dancer, or a syncretic music expert all kinds of people would come week after week. I kind of started going because of a friend who told me about these sessions.Because I would keep going there very regularly,I got to know Shabnam a little. She knew I had writtenmy first book, I'd given her a copy, which she really enjoyed.She said that, there is this book I want written and would you like to write it? She said it was about these girls who had studied in her school, which she used to run and she wanted to document their stories.Initially, I thought that this is some kind of academic thing and me being a different kind of writer. I thought, it's not going to work. I was just dilly dallying. One day, she called me she said, come and meet the girls. fortyish women. And I remember there was this bright yellow huge table in Anhad and these girls was sitting scattered around that table. And she had told me a little bit about them. You know why she wanted their history documented. So I knew that there were girls from very poor backgroundsverydeprived and how they had really struggled and come up in life and got some degree of success. But when I saw these girls, they were just girls, they were just giggling away. They all had kajal in their eyes, dancing eyes they had. And none of them were wearing a burqa, I think only one was wearing a burqa and they would stare at me,with so much frankness. And when we started talking, I found them totally opposite of what I had expected. I expected these women so full of their misery, but they were just so charming and so much fun. And there was no trace of having had some enormous struggle in their life or anything like that. And then I got talking to them, and I just thought these girls are special, and their stories must be told. Having overcome so much, and still being so happy, that struck me as something which, which I needed to understand for myself, and also bring their stories forward, because they are remarkable stories. So I'm very happy, I took that on.

When you read the book you realise that because of the way Shabnam and her mother,how they taught these girls to break away from stereotypes. They don't have hang-ups,so getting them to open up and talk was not really a problem, except maybe with one or two, but then they were because of natural reticence. But these girls are bold, you know, they talk and they have opinions, they have points of view. That is the magic of what Shabnam managed to do with them.

But I must say that, on the other hand, I was full of biases. I remember when I first went to the basti and you know, I had never seen a place like that or if I had seen it, like, way back in my childhood when we had some relatives, you know, that Chandni Chowk, I remember once or twice going there. But even then, those were Hindu areas of Chandni Chowk. I've been to that Dargha before. Nizamudding Dargah. Most people in Delhieven vaguely culturally evolved they’ve been to the Dargha to listen to kawalis, so I had also been. But I had no clue that just a stone's throw away, there is this big urban slum I didn't even know it exists. And if you look at maps, the Nizamuddin basti is not mentioned. If you put it on Google Maps, and you want to, to go there. It doesn't exist. So it's like one dirty secret, an urban slum, hidden near the Dargha. So Dargha, everyone goes and that's it, no one goes further. But there are so many people living there. And so when I also first went to the basti and it was kind of you know dirty there was a heaps of garbage here and there and the lanes were so narrow.So I was quite apprehensive. And I was following Shabnam like a little child. You know, if she, if I lose sight of her, I'll never find my way out of this warren. So I had more problems, I think, than they had. And I would go to the houses, and I would check to see you know, where to sit, I was so afraid that everything is gonna be dirty. And if they offered me water or tea, I had a problem because I was so sure that, you know, it's not filtered, the water is not filtered. And if they offered me something to eat, I'd make all kinds of excuses. You know, but Shabnam had no such problems, eating and drinking happily over there in everybody's homes. So I was the one who had hassles, not them.

Yes, I'm so happy I did it. And I discovered so many wonderful things, about people just about people. But at the end of the day, you know, it's just people. It's not about Muslim, or Hindu or rich or poor, or slum or anything. It's just people. So I really, I really learned that and, it was a very precious thing to learn.

Oh you know, I'm always doing a million things. I don't know why. Just before I spoke to you earlier, when we started this conversation, I was just finishing my exam. So, I did a course on being becoming a peer support specialist. Peer Support Specialist in mental health. So peer support specialists are people who have suffered through depression, or bipolar disorder, they learn how to use the power of their story, to help enable wellness and others. Apart from that, I organise most of the Baat chit that Anhad does. So all the cultural programmes, I identify speakers and get them to come and talk. And then about a year ago, they started talks on mental health. So I began moderating those.Of course, because of the pandemic, now we've been doing them online, we haven't managed to do too many, but we've done two or three which have been well received. Then the other thing I am, which is a constant in my life is Buddhism. I practice Nichiren Buddhism, which is a Japanese form of Buddhism. But Buddhism is Buddhism, you know, it's all the same. So this is this is Buddhism for ordinary people and their daily life. That's how we define it.what else, what else? I'm sure there are 10 other things I do.

Hmm can’t say in entirety.In Buddhism, they say from the state of hell, the way to the state of Buddhahood and Bodhisattva, it's absolutely straight, you don't have to step into the other worlds.

I don't know if I'm getting clear, but in Buddhism, they say there are 10 worlds, and we keep swinging between those worlds, you know, so they are hell hunger, anger, animality, then heaven, rapture, Bodhisattva, Buddhahood. Because only those who have been in hell can understand what another person in hell is going through. You understand. So I think what it made me was very, very empathetic, and very, very concerned about anybody and everybody. So I have this hypersensitivity to people, which gets me into trouble many times, because I find myself constantly reaching out and, you know, doing for others before I do for myself, and that is not a good thing. You know because self care is equally important. And, of course, they did very many negative things for me, in the sense that I carried a lot of fear of all kinds, I quit two perfectly good jobs, because I was too much in distress to be able to cope. But on the other hand, it also made me very, very resilient. You know, so yeah, it has shaped me into the person I am.

Actually, yeah, I was quite devastated. My mother was severely bipolar. And that's how, so much trauma got generated. Because for a child to have a mother who's completely not like other mothers, and who is constantly turning to violence and self-harm, it's traumatic, it's very traumatic to grow up like that. And the one thing I always thought while growing up was that, I am different. I'm not like her, I cannot be like her.What she did was because of her past. I didn't go through what she went through. So I was quite sure that nothing will happen to me. I had a brilliant, amazing, very loving father, and a pretty steady home otherwise.And nothing did happen till I finished school. And I finished college and I started working. And so I thought, I'm safe. Nothing will happen to me. So then, I went through a horrible, horrible depression, and the doctor, I was seeing, he didn't give me any medicine, he said, with therapy he will get me out of it. He couldn't, but he still wouldn't give me medicine. So the depression went away on his own after six, eight months of terrible, terrible suffering. I thought it's gone. It was a one-time thing. It won't come back, but it came right back. And then another doctor I went to he give me antidepressants. And again, I thought, I'm free now I'm fine, but then it came back again. When it came back again, the doctor told me that,I'm going to put you on a mood stabiliser because you have bipolar disorder. It's not just ordinary depression, you have bipolar disorder. And I looked at him and I told him, No, I don't have bipolar disorder. I cannot have bipolar disorder. I refuse to have bipolar disorder. I'm not taking any mood stabiliser, nothing I am going to be fine. You know,doctor’s just talk rubbish. But sure enough, I had another episode. And then there was no choice. But to take it. I was miserable. I felt so cheated that all my life. I mean, I've suffered because of this illness, because my mother had it. And now I have to suffer because I have it. So, I mean, it will never leave me and this is going to be my life just miserable all the time. So this is where Buddhism came in and saved me.

Yeah, firstly, I never spoke to anybody for the longest time. I just didn't. I didn't think people would understand. And I also felt it would put a big question mark on my ability to work and cope. And everybody would,view me with suspicion that you know, can she even do the work? I didn't speak to anybody. In fact, so much so that I hardly spoke to even my sisters and brothers about it or my father. I just kind of kept it inside. I didn't speak to anybody, though I did have difficulties. I remember, you know, in the initial years after I started lithium, and before I became completely well, I had a lot of problems, I would go to work.

And There were times when I would just kind of freeze. If a brief was given to me, I was so sure that I cannot do this work. I started telling servicing people once or twice that, don't brief me, I can't do the work. And once I had a big showdown, because one guy said, what do you mean, you can't do the work, I have a deadline, you bloody well do the work. And I said, I can't I'm not capable of doing the work. So, I would just kind of go to work, and keep hoping against hope that nothing comes my way. And so I also suffered,so whereas other people got increments and promotions, I did not get because I was not able to perform. So yes, it was a problem. And things became so bad that like I said twice, I had to quit the job. But if you ask me, it is Buddhism that saved me.

But it is it is a huge stigma. And nobody talks about it. Though I feel that now, I think things have changed. Now, people are somewhat open to talking about, depression. Everyone openly talks about it now. So, it has changed, at least in the urban, upper class, there is a little more acceptance.

I'll tell you something very, very, very nice. In Ogilvy, I used to sit in the same room with a girl called Priti. One day, she and I discovered that we both have bipolar disorder. So, it happened because they were going to change our cabin. We were sharing a cabin. some new people had joined and they were shuffling cabins. And they were going to put us in a cabin, on the opposite side where they were no windows. And she said, Hey, I have bipolar disorder. I need sunshine. I cannot sit in a room without a windows. I said, Oh, you have bipolar disorder. Even I have. The way she spoke about her “I have bipolar…. I thought. She's so like, cool about it. That was one big thing, which made me also say that, okay, if she can do that, I can do this. And I actually wrote a mail to the head of the office, and to the HR saying that there are two of us. We both have bipolar disorder. We need sunshine. You have to give us a cabin, which has lots of sunshine and fresh air and they did. From her I learned this that you can talk about.I have this phobia. I hate flying. If I can help it, I won't take a flight. And when I'm on a flight I am like in shambles. And then,I heard about this Junior who's also very afraid of flying, but he had to go for a shoot. So he told everybody that I can't fly. I'm really frightened and they booked him on a Rajdhani and I am telling myself look at me every time I have to go for a shoot. I'm like dying 1000 deaths, because I don't want to tell anybody that I have a problem. But, look at this guy so much better than me.

My advice would be to love yourself. And whatever and however, you are, you're great. And there is no need to always be feeling that I need to do so much more. Or that you know, I am so much worse. I can't do this. I don't have that. I'm not good looking. I'm not this I'm not that. So I think I would really say that you know, love yourself. I would tell my younger self that you're beautiful the way you are, love yourself.

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I launched The Elephant in the Room podcast last year as a part of my learning journey to be more intentional and purpose driven. For most parts I love it, but as any podcast host will admit, it is hard work. It requires discipline to turn up week after week, and just the sheer number of hours it takes to put an episode together, can sometimes be a drag. However, I chose to do it, because I love it.

My guest for the 12th episode Lorraine Lewis knows a thing or two about turning up day after day at all hours towards a cause she is committed to. She is the co-founder of The Lewis Foundation an award winning charity, that provides free gifts and support to adults going through cancer treatment in hospitals around the midlands. During the first lockdown last year Lorraine and her husband Lee received a personal thanks from the Prime Minister for their hard work, and were awarded the Points of Light Award.

Lorraine balances her work at the foundation with her work as Criminal Lawyer working for the CPS. She is passionate about changing the world and she is doing it one step at a time.

In this freewheeling conversation she talks about her journey to setting up the charity; her work at the CPS; her identity, the term ‘BAME’; about finding her purpose and her inspiration amongst other things.

Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts.

Listen to the full episode here

Memorable passages from the conversation:

So I've always known I wanted to be a lawyer, probably far around seven/eight and I think because my parents used to love watching those crime programs on TV, So I was there at home watching it and that's what got me into it. It just seemed really cool. That just fired it into me from the age is definitely what I wanted to do. What I did find is when I would share that like when you had careers advisor talks at school, they would say well, no, you can't do that, pick something else. Basically because you're a woman and you're black, so you're not going to be able to do that.At the time, it really shocked me. And I remember going home and telling my parents and they could not believe it either. They just went into the school and had some words. But more importantly, they told me that don't let anybody tell you, you can't be, or do anything you want to do and go for it. So even though people are telling you not tothat you can't get there but you can find a way. And I think that was through my whole time, me having an idea of being, I know I want to be a barrister. All through school when I kept getting told the same thing. If anything it actually drove me. It made me more determined to want to do it. To prove people wrong and prove my teachers wrong, who said I couldn't do it. And it was a challenge actually, because there's nobody in my family who went to Uni before. There was nobody, any of us knew who had anything to do with law. And it was about me taking those steps to put myself out there and contact people and write to people and persuade them to give me work experience, to support me. That enabled me to make that whole progress in my journey to be able to get my quantification in 2007. And I qualified as a barrister and it wasn't easy but I'm glad that I did Imagine if I was one of those people that felt like. I might as well give up, or my parents had turned round to me and said actually that is right you might as well just leave it. It could easily have gone that way. So I think it's really sad when you do hear stories about people getting told they can't do something, based on the colour of their skin and who they are, what their gender is. Because that could be that just one thing that could stop somebody actually fulfilling their dreams. So it was a long process, but that’s what I wanted to do.

My mother-in-law was diagnosed with cancer in 2010. A diagnosis that came completely out of the blue. She was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, so it was a shock. And for us and for myself, it was the first time I'd ever experienced anybody going through cancer before. And obviously you see the adverts and things on TV, but. It doesn't really hit home until you're in that situation to be honest. And going to hospitals, it really shocked me or how hard It was for people,There was people that were having treatment from nine o'clock to five o'clock as if it was a day job.

There was a lot of loneliness, people didn’t have visitors, they were so much boredom and it really made us think that there was some way that we could try and make the situation a little bit better for people. And I think what changed things was that my father-in-law during that period, passed away from a heart attack out of the blue in 2012. And we took over myself and my husband the caring of my mother-in-law. And that's when we realised how much they shielded us, really from what was going on, to protect us. But then we saw the reality of it. Financially, it was so expensive. You've got parking, you can't work, you've got your bills that you still have to pay. They don't stop. And then we really thought about the times when she was alone in hospital on her own, because visiting hours was less, just like four hours a day.

The first thing that really kind of sparked this idea of doing something to help people is, we used to bring in a TV for my mother-in-law to watch because it costs 10 pounds a day or 35 pounds a week to watch TV in hospital. So it was just too expensive, really just ridiculous. And my father-in-law used to bring in a TV. But obviously after he passed away, then it was our job. When you're lugging it through the streets you don’t look good because when you look like you have stolen something. So that was not right, let's try and get some TVs for the ward in Northampton general hospital. So that was 14 TVs for people in, in rooms on their own because they had to be in isolation. So I decided to do some fundraising. I signed up to do Tough Mudder. I don’t know If you heard of it. So I didn’t know what it was like, but I said to my brother, what can I do to get people to sponsor me. And he goes why don’t you do that. And he didn't tell me what it was. Afterwards I'm filling my sponsor form and everyone was like you're not gonna make it like, this is not your thing. To be fair, obviously I didn’t want to let on it wasn’t my thing. So I was that mindset like, I'm going to prove you wrong.

Even though I didn’t think I would make it myself. And it was so tough. So it was like literally ridiculous because I did not like to run at that point, didn’t like mud or anything like that. But what kept me going was that I needed to get these TVs like I just needed to help people. So nice enough to get 14 TV and DVD players for the adult cancer ward, which was amazing. And it was just amazing feeling going in, you could see people watching it rather than just like staring at the wall or not doing anything at all. TV because it's a distraction, keeps people connected with the outside world and just helps take your mind of what you're going through. And then after that, that's when the gift giving idea came. When we used to visit my mother-in-law, we used to go to the hospital shop. We used to grab magazines, books, sweets, toiletries, and then we'd just go around, give them out and spend time with people. And we saw how happy it made them. And that's when we decided to set up a charity, not really knowing what we were doing. It just came out of the need to help other people who we could see were in a really difficult position. It was out of that circumstances it was born. If my mother-in-law had not been diagnosed then it would never have happened because we were never in that world.

I think the reason we did it is because we saw that there were charities that were providing that support so people can have a chat and talk to, but we just thought about the fact that what things can cheer people up. And there was nobody going round and actually giving gifts and spending time talking to people and it wasn't necessarily talking about cancer. It was about talking about them, getting to know them, their likes, dislikes, their family and friends. There wasn't anything like that. And we found when we were there that’s what made people smile. And so we don’t know why but we decided to set it up, because we wanted to make people happy and it made us happy in the process as well. Looking back if I am going to be honest we had not clue what we were doing. When we got the charity status, then we were like, we haven't got no money. So we hadn't even thought about it, it was like, yeah, should've thought about it properly. But, It was, we saw a gap.

That was just a complete shock out of the blue overnight and it changed how we operated greatly. I mean, we used to go into the hospitals every week and physically hand out the gifts ourselves to patients and sit and spend time with them. And then visiting restrictions have been put in place. Which still remain in place. so that was really tough. Initially we thought shall we just stop, but then hospitals were like …. But where are you? It was tough because we used to park in our community center in Northampton so between around 30 people would come of all ages and we'd all pack the gifts together. And that had to stop because of social distancing, um, so everybody's packing in their own homes now and we coordinate it. So we get the gift items, put them together, deliver it to the volunteers. They pack them, we collect them and then they deliver to the hospital and the hospital will hand them out to patients for us so that people are still getting the items they need.

Back in March when all the shelves were being stripped of items, and that was really tough because I know people had to felt they needed to buy in bulk, but at the same time they were forgetting, there were people out there that were not in that position to get the items that actually they really, really needed. But what really surprised us was the kindness and generosity of businesses. They would be like we know you guys are genuine. And they were saving things for us so we can continue our work. And we had members of the public who were collecting items and donating and dropping packs off just to people's homes. We all got together and just found a way to still get gifts to people, despite the circumstances that we were in. And now we've adapted now to a new process. I mean, we can't wait until we go back to physically seeing people again in hospital but at least we're safe, still being able to keep going so people can get things to help pass the time during treatment, to help them provide some comfort to give them some support whilst they stayed in hospital. So, it has been a major learning curve because it's just been like adapting on a weekly basis to see what was going to change next.

Yeah, I think it's brilliant and a lot of people are reaching out to volunteer in whatever way they can, whether it's pack bags or drop off bags to people's homes or fundraise for us virtually. It like we all use that time to come together. Something that we needed to do beforehand, but life was so busy that you didn't really think about it. I loved that whole bringing the community together during that period, it was just so nice that people were actively going out of their way to try and find a need to help others. And we're still seeing it now. So it's clearly had an impact on the way people view helping and supporting those, in their community. I think that’s some good that has come out of a really difficult time.

It is crazy. I'm not going to lie. Sometimes it's really hard. When my mother-in-law was going through treatment and after my father-in-law died, I was working in court. So that was really difficult because court lasted as long as it, as it lasted. So there was no guaranteed finish time. But then an opportunity came up for a job to work for the crown prosecution service in London. So I could prepare the cases for court. But it means I wasn't in the court environment so could have regulate my hours better. I could also be flexible in working from home as well. So that enabled me that balance to be able to do the charity work and do my job. So, I love them both. In the way I prepare for court, I love research and reading. My employers are amazing. They're so supportive. They know what the charity does and they support me in whatever way they can. So I'm really lucky that I work for the employer that is fully aware of what I'm doing, but they haven't put any pressure for me to stop. If anything, they're encouraging and supporting me and getting involved too.

I think for me, it's resilience. I think my parents instilled within me and my self-belief as well. Like my parents are amazing in that respect and that they always taught me. Don't see any barriers, forget that you're black. Just go out there and do what you need to do. And people will accept you. And even if they don't, then you still continue and find a way around it. And that has served me well, I think throughout my whole life, actually. There were times where I didn't feel I could get any legal job and that desire to keep going, no matter what. And even with the charity, like it's really hard when you set something up and you don't really know what you're doing and people are like, what are you trying to do? Cause I heard that a lot in the early days, like. What was the point of this, what you were trying to achieve? Why are you giving stuff away for free? People didn't get it, but not letting that deter you. So they'll be like, I'm going to still do it anyway until you know that it actually matters. I think that's for me, my big thing is like the resilience and the ability to keep going. And that really shapes me. That's my identity. I think.

I've been quite lucky actually in that the places that I've worked in have been accepting. I mean, when I worked, I've worked initially in Northamptonshire and that was great. There wasn't many black people, I have to say it wasn't very diverse, but I never felt un-welcomed. What really surprised me that is when I went to CPS in London. I've never seen a place where there are so many different cultures and colours. And it really shocked me and really, it shouldn't shock me to know in this day and age . We should be like yeah that is normal. I was like oh my god what’s going on. It was amazing to see it was people of all levels, admin, lawyers, management, middle management, senior management. And it's so great for a young lawyer because you feel equal and you feel like you can be yourself. And what I loved is, especially during those periods, when there was the black life matters, we were having conversations about how people felt and discussions, which was really important to people. Because for me it was the thing that shocked me because we never really talked about it before. Not even with my own family. We had these conversations for the first time. So to have that forum where you work as well. An outlet to speak was amazing. And also few things like black history month, different talks, different workshops. I think because I've always worked for the civil service, my experience has been really positive because that's what we promote. And especially when I went to London, that's where I was like, wow, this is amazing. I've never seen this before. And I know, I shouldn't say that.

That's a good question. I don't think it should be like that. I think it should be everybody playing their part, to be honest, to promote equality. And I don't think it should be say just because you're black, you should be pushing it forward. I mean, it could be any colour. I mean, I'm in a mixed relationship, my husband's white. He should be able to be in a forum where he can voice his opinions about equality and diversity as well. We live in such a multicultural society that we all should play our part in speaking and promoting about it. We all know right from wrong as well. So we all know that you can't behave in that way, or you can't say, or do certain things. So I feel it's an equal thing. What I really liked about the black lives matter was that people from all backgrounds were stepping forward to say things are not right, we need to be more equal, we need to revisit our media, we need to revisit, how we promote things, things that nobody talked about before, not openly like that. And when I talk about having those discussions with my parents, I don't know why we haven't had those discussions, you just didn’t. I think it was just you just didn't and it brought it to the forefront in a way that none of us could have ever imagined and forced us to have those conversations. And to be honest, it was really nice chatting to them about it and getting to know about their background and experience, because I don't think I'd ever even asked. It took that one act, which was absolutely awful, to then be that trigger for us to have those essential conversations. It is a shame it had to come out that way, but in a way it is used as a platform to talk about things that we really needed to have done so for a very long time

For me I think the term needs to change. I think it's something that's quite old now and it's like, you can't just say black and ethnic minorities. You're lumping everybody else into a lot, a category. And it's not one category because there's so many different ethnicities and cultures. So I think maybe back then that was felt like it was a comfortable way to do it, but I don't think in this day and age, we should really still be using it because, because it's not accurate. You can't lump everybody into one category when there's so many different types of, cultures out there ethnicities and they should be recognised too and have their voice. It just seems a bit old fashioned, to be honest.

I think networks are brilliant, like. In the last year, I've really taken an active step to get involved in networks and networking. LinkedIn has been amazing. Obviously we're having this conversation now is properly as a result of this. And it's enabled me to connect with so many different people and get to learn about so many people's different experiences. You just never know who you are going to meet when you, when you network. And the benefits it could bring to yourself and to the other person that you, that you encounter. And I think that it's great because as a society, we need to connect with each other, we need to support each other. We need to learn about each other. And that's, what's the brilliant thing about networking. I know for me, when I had started a lot of people, like what you find it scary or what you're going to say to somebody, but you just take it as like...

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Show Notes

I enjoy recording podcast with all my guests but this one was particularly full of laughter, learning and insights. For the 11th episode of #TheElephantintheRoom I interviewed Professor Jonathan A.J. Wilson, a Professor of Brand Strategy & Culture at Regent's University London, Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of Islamic Marketing and the author of ‘Halal Branding’. Born and raised in Manchester, Professor Wilson is the son of a white Scottish father and Black Carribbean mother in a Christian household. He converted to Islam in 2000. He has deep knowledge of different cultures, speaks multiple languages with ease and is passionate about marketing and branding. In this episode he speaks about the absence of diversity in leadership positions in higher education

The lack of non-western mainstream examples in marketing.

Halal branding

Hip Hop counterculture and its role in inspiring social change and making ethno - racial issues mainstream

Cultural appropriation, White fragility

Acceptable stereotyping

The controversy around existing acronyms and categorisations of racial and ethnic groups

Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts.

Listen to the full episode here

https://player.captivate.fm/show/aa7beee1-226a-40c6-b451-67244be1412a/latest/

Memorable Passages from the episode

So I'm a chemistry graduate, I've got an MBA, and I've got two doctorates. One of them is in branding and the other one is in the ‘Halal phenomenon.’ Career wise, I've been a professional musician. I played at Glastonbury, on the BBC. And I wrote and performed some music for the first few Grand Theft Auto video games for all of you rebels out there. And also, as a schoolboy I played rugby for England, and I'm born and raised in Manchester and my folks work for the NHS.

Actually, I think I'm old enough now for my identities to be pretty fixed. But I am mindful of how I communicate my identity to others. So, depending on my audience, I try to refine it a little bit for the context. So, if you were to ask me, am I black or mixed race or Muslim, or an Arab or Asian in an African body. Am I a grunge kid? Am I a hip hop cat? I'm an afro punk. Am I an Afro Samurai? Or am I a professor? I'm all of these.

Revolution! Apart from revolution, because academics are not very good at being revolutionary because we like to read lots of articles and make incremental change and not challenge the status quo so much. We've done the monitoring and we've done the reporting. Some more proactive measures have to be taken beyond just the advertisements that say “we welcome applications from underrepresented communities such as black people, women it's not really working. Because if it was, I wouldn't

read the same articles year in year out. Proactively ensure that there are enough minority professionals that are shortlisted, I'm not saying give them jobs, I'm saying give them a chance. And we should also be mindful of who is involved in the interviewing and selection. So, if there are people that can't pronounce people's names, right, and they don't have any kind of understanding or appreciation of those cultures and backgrounds, then that's also a problem too. For example, if your name is Ahmed or Osama or Mohammed or Khadija or Ayesha and you write about the Middle East, or you write about Islam, or Islamic finance or something like that, people might just assume that that's all that you know. That you don't know about cucumber sandwiches, eggs and chips, Manchester United, and things like that.

And so I find that those also percolate into recruitment and selection. And then even if we go across the board that you know, I hear stereotypes that, you know, if for example, you are from India or China, then you're better at quantitative research and mathematics. But, you know, if you are French, then you might be better at philosophy and culture and luxury branding and things like that. And if you're black, then you're a professor of urban culture, which translates to basically, you know, hip hop, fried chicken, grime, twerking.

Well! Put it this way if we were discussing, thought, creativity, excellence, and business practice in the context of women. And there was no representation, or there were no contributions from women, people would find it easier to see how wrong that was, how myopic and how fraught with howling gaps in understanding. However, when we discuss race and culture, it's a little bit more difficult for people to get it. If we think about race issues, it's a lot easier for people to assume that they can speak on behalf of communities. That's the thing that there's just a lack of richness, if we just hold on to this idea of a Western perspective of marketing, and it's easy to do, right, because the preponderance of literature comes out of North America and Europe. Most of the top business schools are coming from these regions. And most of our brightest diaspora go to these institutions and are taught these theories and models, right. And so even if you come out of these institutions, and you want to challenge the status quo. But you face a mountain of opposition, because you're suggesting that there could be an alternative. And within my own career I've had to wait a number of years of climbing up that mountain, just to be able to put forward the argument that things might be different or there are alternative ways of looking at things. This is why I'm fascinated by alternative perspectives that challenge the way that we think. It’s just the idea that we could enrich our understanding, through understanding alternative perspectives.

Branding draws from a lot of concepts and practices, which are actually rooted in religion and in particular Christianity. So, my contributions within the book that I wrote called Halal branding, and some of the papers that I've published, is to ask the question, what changes if you draw from another faith? You’ll be amazed at how brands want to be worshipped, they want you to hold them in higher esteem than anyone else, to devote your life to them, to lose your mind, and to be converted. I've

read articles where they talk about the holy grail in branding. We've been in meetings where people have said, ‘Let's all sing from the same hymn sheet’ or what have you. What if you don't sing hymns? Some of you might be saying, Ah, avatar is from Hinduism. You're right. But then let's look at what that's done to our understanding by using the term avatar. When somebody has an avatar on social media, we kind of know that that's not the full you. So that's the contribution of Hinduism in terms of social media branding, the avatars are things that we can choose. And we can have lots of them in the same way as there were many avatars of Vishnu, right. I am outlining how branding works for products that are catering for a Muslim audience, or audiences across the world, whether that's majority or minority communities, but also how Muslims can brand their products and services to anyone authentically with integrity. In the same way as brands like Starbucks or Costa have been able to go out there and say we're from this culture. And this drove us to create a brand like this and this is our story. I think the Muslims need a little bit of help in telling their story, especially now in the climate that we're in where people are kind of suspicious. I just wanted you to write a feel-good book. Because if you haven't seen the cover, it's shocking pink and electric blue. I wanted it to shatter some stereotypes that we're all about Moroccan tiles and mosque domes and the colour green and gold. That we have rich and diverse personalities. And I think it's been well received inside and outside the Muslim community.

Well, I think there's a lot to do with reporting what's happening on the street, in the form of zeitgeist. I think painting vivid pictures in people's minds, finding a way to make words attractive and flow, moving your mind, body and soul. Sometimes being quite base actually, and doing the opposite. Making the best use of what you've got on a budget because you couldn't get let into clubs, or you didn't have access to musical instruments, you couldn't afford expensive clothes so, you wore t shirt and trainers. I think rebellion, healthy competition and collaboration. Because what you see in hip hop is there are a lot more artists who would guest on each other's albums than say in other genres of music. But also I'd like to focus on the notion of cool, because actually, if you look at its linguistic origins. And I've read research on this, it originates from African slavery. And it's this idea of grace under pressure, and creating a mask to hide the oppressor from sensing defeat in you. And now that I've explained that, then you might get a sense of where hip hop is coming from. People might just think it's showing off or it's childishness, or that they don't understand the wearing of gold chains and or bling or any of those things. But you've got to look to the root of where this is coming from. This is coming from people being excluded, and wanting to show that they will not be defeated, and now nor excluded. Because if you look at some of the hip hop billionaires, whether that's Jay Z, Kanye, Dr. Dre, Beats by Dre headphones, Yeezy trainers. That's hip hop's contribution in saying well, we actually came up with an alternative, creative art form, lifestyle and business model, which is mainstream.

So, it's tricky and very nuanced. And we can all be guilty of it right? You don't know that you're guilty of it until you step outside of your bubble, go to another country, talk to other people, and then you realise that you have. So ultimately, to avoid it, you have to pay your dues, and ensure that people who have inspired you are respected, credited. And the people that you draw from and target are acknowledged and respected and elevated. If you can get that ratification, then you're going to avoid appropriation. But sadly, many people aren't able to do that. There's been a number of articles, quite rightly pointing out that black youth culture in America is being plundered for these, nuggets of cool that then get turned into advertising campaigns. It was this year that John Boyega spoke about the fact that he was creative director for an advert for john Malone. But when they used it in China they kept his idea but he and all of the all of the actors and actresses were replaced by an all Chinese cast. Now some people might say, okay, what's wrong with that? The cater, that's localised marketing, a catering for Chinese audience, but he wasn't credited. And John Boyega is a global superstar. If you're still thinking, yeah, but maybe, you know, he's being a bit paranoid. So why was he his presence reduced in Star Wars posters marketed in China? The black guy, right, you know, he will provide a ton of evidence as to why he thinks that way. And I think it's very compelling evidence. So, appropriation is easy. I think that some of the debates on appropriation, appreciation are, are rooted in how much power you have. And so, appropriation doesn't appear to be much of a problem

if you are from a disenfranchised or minority community who is powerless. But if you have power and you can wield that power and influence and you are disproportionately benefiting from basically the blood, sweat and tears and the backs of other communities, that's when people smell appropriation.

So, porcelain, white fragility another picture that I wanted to paint. It was to highlight just this obsession with perfection, the aesthetic of lightness, how fragile and breakable emotions were in a certain context, and how therefore people thought that they need to be protected. And ultimately, it is this phenomenon of people being offended, by those who've been oppressed, wronged or discriminated. It’s a reaction and, this reaction tends to be against people with the darkest skin or darker skin. That's for socio cultural reasons, right? But also, I want to make the point that, you know, colourism isn't unique to white people. So, we could be discussing Asian matrimonial websites, and how they classify people according to how dark they are, whether you are, wheatish, olive skinned, mediterranean and how that also affects your marketability with regards finding a future spouse, right? I'm really wanting to talk about that because I think that it's toxic. And that's one of the challenges that we face and that also extends to, like, you know, when you've got movements, like Black Lives Matter, and then people reply with, don't all lives matter.This fragility means that the door gets closed, or the real casualty is not being acknowledged. So it's also this response where if a person of colour expresses their unhappiness the door gets shut straight away. And say, I don't see what that has to do with me or I had nothing to do with slavery, or, you know, I feel hurt by this. And, you know, one of my friends is black, and he says that he's never experienced racism. It’s describing that, you know, horrible closing of the door.

Well, let's be honest, marketers, advertisers, PR professionals day in day out stereotype. So, I don't think it's wrong. Now, you might think, look, I would say that, you know, that we don't call it stereotyping. We call it an audience segmentation. But audience segmentation is pretty much acceptable stereotyping, right. And I think it's a necessary function of doing business and targeting audiences. Because we have limited resources. At some stage, you know, I mean, I remember there was one, I had interest from one client, and I said, like, they were coming up with a new platform online. And I said, Who's your target audience? And they said, mankind. And I said, how much budget have you got to target mankind? Because it's gonna be be expensive their thinking was no, no, no, we don't want to discriminate. We don't want to exclude

you. I was like, I get it, I totally get it, So we have to draw up a list of criteria, geographic demographic, psychographic, behavioural, that create these homogenous groups that we can then chase. And that's based upon some inductive and deductive thinking. But, effectively that's stereotyping.

Because if we set it like that, then nobody wants to do it, but it wasn't. What stereotype is that we call is segmentation but we're pretty much doing that. Like, even if, even if we're trying to do the good, the good fight, and we talk about the experiences of BME or BAME or whoever. This is stereotype. But we have to be careful of that stereotype. This is the challenge, because then you might have one community that says, hey, you're not speaking on our behalf. And then we go, Oh, you're right. But then there'll be someone else that says, oh, but proportionally, you are a fraction,

you're a minority within a minority, and we'd have the budget to cater for you. But we can't say that because obviously they get upset, right? I can get how people would be upset. Just even as a community, this assumption that all minorities are, are poor, from broken home socially deprived, things like that. That's not good. There are assumptions made about people in the workplace, where effectively you have no chance of moving onwards and upwards.

There is an overlap or there should be an overlap. Let me put it this way, the reality is that when we look at some of those things, they're not always overlapping. Brands might think that they are also their purpose and perceptions and value and image and everything that needs to be sufficient overlap to have that sweet spot where all of those things work together. But some of them might be adrift. And that's why you need to check on those things. I mean, most common example, you know, somebody can think that they're God's gift, right? But if everyone else doesn't, what value does that give to you? And so I would apply the same reasoning to a brand. So, doesn't matter what your mission statement is, what you say in your adverts, if it's not received well by your audience and they don't put their hands in the pocket, then there's a drift and you need to account where that drift is.

I mentioned before, whether that's BAME Black, Asian minority, ethnic BME, black, minority, ethnic BIPOC, black, indigenous person of colour think, to be honest, it's a mess. And globalisation hasn't made it any easier because now that we're communicating across continents, we're looking for a universally understood term. For example, things also come in and out of fashion. So at the minute the word black, let's call it fashionable or acceptable. People talk about being a black person and not a coloured person. And we could see recently what happens, you know, in the FA when, you know, someones’ referred to as being coloured. People took offence.

Mixed race is another term that I hate, but I use because you kind of have no choice, because even this notion of race I have problems with because this idea of mixed race and there's always that that cheesy meme that says there's only one race, which is the human race, is cheesy, but it's true. And so to me, the concept of race means it's almost like you're assuming that we're different species.

That’s what racism is. And that leads to problems. And so, the whole field is a mess because the more you look at it, the more you realise that some of these things are kind of contradictory or paradoxical. I'm politically black and I'm quite happy to tick a box saying I'm a black person. I'm also a mixed-race person. But even the term

black I have problems with because it doesn't link you to a geographic location. So if you're Asian, you're linked to a geographic location and you have heritage and culture and civilisation and all of those things. If you're a black person, then you're basically just drifting like any black person. You could be in Africa, could be in Australia, Aborigine, could be in Brazil. It's just purely descriptive by the colour of your skin. But I kind of feel like we have no choice. So then if we look at whether it's BAME and people are now getting offended by BAME but if we look, BAME was supposed to be the solution...

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Shownotes

He is a pioneer championing the honey hunters from the Kurumba and other tribes in the Nilgiri Biosphere in the Western ghats for the last decade. Mathew John, Managing Director of Last Forest Enterprise is helping protect indigenous communities who have been sustainably harvesting honey for thousands of years from honey cliffs and bee nesting trees. As a social enterprise its success is embedded in its ability to bring together the triad of good development: conservation, livelihoods and enterprise. When I read about the honey hunters and Last Forest in @30Stades I was fascinated with their thousand year living traditions and practices. So when Mathew agreed to be a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast, I was beyond thrilled.

In this episode Mathew talks about backpacking for a year in his quest towards finding the perfect honey

About COVID-19 and its impact on the business and local communities

The problems with global organic certification processes, and the peer review ‘Participatory guarantee systems'

The honey hunters in the Nilgiri biosphere, their living culture

Indigenous communities as stewards of the environment, The Indian Forest Rights Act, and the recent supreme court ruling in India

The collaboration with Stanford

The road to being sustainable and purpose driven

Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts.

https://podcast.app/the-elephant-in-the-room-p1758338/?utm_source=ios&utm_medium=share

Memorable passages from the interview

We spent a year traveling all over Tamil Nadu, backpacking looking for people who collect honey. And I will continue to refer to them as honey hunters because they collect honey from the wild. And we realised that when you start this development process, most of the time we look at environmental issues, we look at development issues, but we tend to leave the market out of the mix. Which in a sense is part of the triad of conservation, livelihoods and enterprise. And if you don't have the mix, you may move forward, but it will never be complete. And many times in the development context, we tend to avoid the market because we see it as a different beast. We don't want to engage with it.

But for us, it was very important that we engage with this part. And so right from the mid-nineties, we engaged with the market. We tried to create our own brand and move forward. But finally in 2010 as an organisation, we decided that we needed to free up Last Forest as an organisation which we incubated at that point of time. That allowed us the freedom to be able to engage with the customer side.

When we work from the development side in the market space, we tend to come very highly from the producer side, because that's where our engagement is. We would like to give good prices to the producer. We would like to give them a guarantee in terms of prices. We tend to deal with the customer and the market - here is the product take it, or leave it. You should buy it just because it comes from small communities. It comes from marginalised sets of people. And we then tend to leave it, but not engage with that set of customers but they would like to know where the product is coming from, the story behind the product. And finally for a customer, the product has to make sense. There has to be a quality part of it, and there has to be a functionality part of it. And if those two don't meet then, it's an empathetic purchase, but it's not a purchase that will continue to happen.

In our journey, we kept both sides and focus both on the producer side and the customer side. Do we tend to guarantee income? I don't think we can fully guarantee that, but what we try and do is, we know that there is a certain set of people that we work with and we have them employed more or less throughout the year.

Two other things happened. One is we kept our e-commerce site open, right through and we told customers, we are there with you. But we need your support also at this point of time. There were customers who bought in, they waited for sometimes over a month for the products to be delivered, but they knew that the cash that was required by the organisation was crucial. And so they paid up front.

The second thing that I think just phenomenal was that we were pivoting early this year towards the export side. And the fair trade community, they were great in the way they placed their orders at that point of time, because it allowed production to take place in the villages. It allowed cashflow for us. That in a nutshell is how we survived the pandemic. And I think we've gone through the worst period but it has allowed us to face the future with confidence, knowing that the team is strong enough to deal with this sort of a worst case scenario.

In the late 60’s, early 70’s, when the organic movement was gaining ground there was a tremendous enthusiasm in the organic world to be recognised by the state, that they were able to follow their principles and create a niche in the market. This recognition by the state also had its downsides, when it became part of the state policies, then you bring in a whole set of policies/criteria that had to come into place. But what it did in this whole process was that it left the small and marginal farmers out of the certification process. So rather than certification becoming an enabler, it sort of ring fenced a certain set of people who could afford that.

And it also assumed that, you were literate enough, you were able to deal with paperwork and you had enough financial capability to be able to bear those costs. And at that point, many groups tried to stay out of it. But then when you have to engage with the market it became very difficult. So many of us, not only Last Forest and its parent institution Keystone Foundation. But many other groups around the world, they tended to find local solutions, which made sense in a local market. All these groups came together in the early 2000s. And today we have a system which is called the ‘participatory guarantee systems.’ This is something that is recognised worldwide, and it allows small producers, farmers to peer review each other. And to be able to put that process to a form of guarantee out into the market. Today, this has been recognised in India as a credible system. The government has adopted this and it has become part of the market system.

One key part of this peer review system is that there are enablers in terms of civil society organisations who are able to put the process together. So you could have many farmers, but you need some a facilitation organisation that is able to put this data together and to be able to curate it, so that it is available for diligence at any point of time. It depends on you, whether you want to make it cumbersome, which normally is there in a third-party system. We tend to, because of one fault you create a new system just to correct that fault, but that fault it maybe by just 5%, but you pushed in the other 95% into that system. So in PGS I think it is the approach and how you deal in certain contexts. There may be areas where even if you have a local language in many places, people are not able to read and write. You can still videograph the entire conversation. And that becomes richer guarantee rather than just a yes and a no. And that I think is much more relevant today because customers would like to know that story.

Many of these traditions which they have would have come through their understanding of the forest and nature. That's where slowly it becomes a tradition and part of that culture. So when they collect honey from these bees, there is a harvest, which is in sync with the bees at that point of time. That they never take away a hundred percent of the combs, that they sing to the bees when they come down the forest made ladders and they leave as sacred places and those become gene pools for the next generation of bees. So I think their understanding of the ecology is much more than we give credit. Because we come from education defined by us, we never see their knowledge as an education that that they have been through and a life journey that they have been through. And I think it's important then for us to unlearn many of the things that we have learned to be able to understand what they speaking or showing us.

Last Forest was incubated in 2010 and the mother institution remains a non-profit organisation, which is Keystone foundation, and that works with many of these communities. And so Last forest is able to donate some amount back to Keystone to be able to carry out work in these communities specifically give for activities like help for running a community newspaper or running a community radio. I think some of this also goes back directly to producers as dividends. So Keystone also incubated another organisation, which is a producer company, which works with the producers directly. And that organisation which has over 1,600 members, is able to receive some of the part of the profits from Last Forests and is able to then plough it back as dividends to this collective.

Unless you equip the communities themselves to deal with this, it's not something we can control. We are always outsiders. I may work here 50 years. I will always remain somebody who comes from a different life experience. And so unless you equip these communities that they can deal with many of these scenarios whether they can be part of decision making bodies, whether they can engage with the political class. All of this, we have to be able to facilitate so that they make they're able to engage and make decisions. Very important is you can put forward choices and the decisions are theirs, decisions are not ours to make. If you constantly work, train, give them enough exposure of how many communities around the world have dealt with this. In our own country, we have so many of these communities, some of whom have become very strong and are able to voice themselves. I think also that we must get people who are in urban spaces to recognise this set of people, because then we value them. We value their diversity. We tend to look at everything in a very homogenised manner, and we are very comfortable within that scenario because diversity makes us uncomfortable. It asks questions of us and, whether it is colour, whether it is the clothes we wear, whether it is the beliefs we hold, all of that. And I think it is important that the large growing urban set of people are able to recognise this diversity in our own country and to be able to value that.

Most organisations tend to be on one side. So either you are for the people or you are for the environment. And we never see the two together. We need the communities and we need the environment and they both need to be in harmony. And they have lived together in harmony. We have created these divisions of whether these are wildlife areas or whether these are tourism spaces. And so this issue that came up last year, I think there is a gap of knowledge that exists that allowed the courts to come up with this sort of a conclusion. From my point of view these communities are actually stewards of these spaces. They have taken care of these spaces for thousands of years. They have not been the reason that these forests have destroyed. Their footprint, their ecological footprint is negligible. It has never destroyed that diversity and that environment. So to take such a strong opinion. I think that this needs to be re looked at, because I don't see them as the perpetrators of the crimes that we are talking about.

We took this conscious decision that it will be an enterprise that will sustain. It has sustained these 10 years without grants. It is able to meet all its expenses and it is also able to meet the ethics and value systems that it has imbibed and it has started with. So I think the journey is longer and it's more difficult, you are bringing in a business sense and you are bringing in ethics and values. If you are trying to fuse them in our present scenario, it is tough but I think it is possible. We have shown it over 10 years that it has worked. I think it needs a whole new, younger generation to step into these spaces. Their understanding of the world, their understanding of the market, they need to bring that perspective into these businesses. We have made huge mistakes in the last 50-60 years, we have destroyed large parts of our planet. And we are now handing over a planet, which is not so great, but I think there is hope that we will go forward. I think this hope that sustains all of us.

I think that it has stuck to its value systems, that it works with small communities. It works on organic and fair-trade principles. It is concerned about biodiversity issue. It provides local employment. These are very strong values for the organisation and it has not compromised on that. Number two, it has made an impact on the communities that it works with, that it provides them employment. Women are at the forefront of these communities and that there is an income that goes back into these spaces. Another one is that it has engaged on the market side with many of the same principles that the market uses. So it has very strong branding, packaging, quality parameters. This is what the market understands, and it has been able to deal in the mainstream market and build a brand for itself. This is something to be extremely proud of because not many development institutions create a brand. And I think that brand creation and recall for customers about the quality and what the organisation stands for, I think is something that I'm very proud of.

Mathew John Social Media links:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathew-john65/

https://lastforest.in

Other important links:

https://30stades.com/2020/09/21/last-forest-takes-honey-beeswax-products-from-nilgiris-to-global-markets-sustainable-enterprise/

https://yourstory.com/2012/11/it-pays-to-be-exotic-how-an-year-of-bag-packing-led-mathew-john-to-startup-last-forest

https://www.ceoinsightsindia.com/vendor/last-forest-enterprises-an-organization-with-true-inspirational-values-cid-1164.html

https://www.commonobjective.co/mathew-john

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Show Notes

My Guest on todays show is Amanda Fone a marcomm and sports marketing recruitment veteran and the founder of F1 Recruitment. She has been championing inclusion, diversity and social mobility long before they became buzz words. I met Amanda a couple of years back and was struck by her empathy, her deep belief in supporting her candidates on their journey and her activism on inclusion. She is someone who believes in walking the talk and has actually committed a substantial percentage of F1 profit to delivering D&I programmes for the past 5 years. In this freewheeling conversation we talk about

Setting up F1 Search & Recruitment, its diversity agenda and wanting to be a certified

B Corporation

‘Back To Business Ship’ programme and its success

The evolution of BAME 2020 and launch of ‘No Turning Back 2020’

Dearth of women in leadership in the industry and The Elephant in the Room for women returners

The long term impact of COVID 19 on the recruitment business and industry

Moving the needle on inclusion

What organisations can do to win the ‘War for Talent’ in the future

Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts.

https://podcast.app/the-elephant-in-the-room-p1758338/?utm_source=ios&utm_medium=share

Memorable passages from the interview

I really felt that being at the sharp end of the recruitment set, you could really make a difference and influence. So F1 was always going to be a vehicle to influence change. And we've always had a manifesto on the website, about seeing more marketing directors and comms directors on boards. And if they're not on boards, why aren't they on boards? So work out what the skills need to be, in order to get the best marketing comms directors on to the boards of companies. And then the other thing has been to create really insightful change campaigns that will affect the look and feel of the sector. And those have always been our objectives they have not changed since 2004.

Actually Liz Nottingham, she's been a client of mine from when she was at Weber Shandwick running the HR team there. And she's got a very unique perspective of the whole of the marketing concept because she's worked across advertising media and communications, PR. And she was at Starcom at the time and she rang me and said, ‘look, I'm getting really frustrated about the fact that we keep losing women, particularly women, at a certain age. Is this what you see, too?’ And I said, well, absolutely. I've been talking about it for a long time. What can we do about getting organisations to realise they're losing a lot of talent, normally after the second child. And this was how actually the conversation started in 2013. So we thought, well, let's just get on with it and create a programme. We had to call it ‘Back to business ship’ because returnships had already been taken. And we were not allowed to use that the word returnship. So we called it ‘Back to business ship’.

So ’Back to business ship’ turned out to be a two week boot camp with about 30 different modules on how to get back to work. We've had over 200 people on the programme over the last six years. And over the years, the companies have been really, really impressed by people. So, we've had people taken on from that particular module. And then when we look at the success over five, six years, about 150 I think have managed to get back to work in part time or flexible working roles. Others decide to start their own businesses. I mean, this programme brings out stuff in people that they just didn't know was there or they did know was there but they didn't actually have the confidence to see it through. And you'll probably have seen that we run a we run a series called ‘Where are they now’ which is on the F1 website. And we really do shine a light on women that have been on the programme to set up their own businesses.

So we created BAME 2020. And we took the view we would ignore the criticism of using the acronym and this is who we focus on black asian minority ethnic representation in the marketing, communications and sports marketing sector. And 2020 is about 20% into the sector, in a sector that is probably less than 9% representation. And the other 20% was to keep that 20% into sector until they reach the very top job. So, we were very very clear about as everything we did, every campaign we’ve run, every programme we've run has always been does this? Will it? Can it affect? And can we measure the outcome against those very simple things. And we decided to appoint about 20 young ambassadors at the time. And we got about the same amount of advisors to come in. And these were all people that were doing things inside the sector already, which felt like pushing, you know, mountains, frankly, to get change. So we just quite quietly launched at Google in July 2016. We were running an event just before lockdown called “Let's be bold about the subject of race. And every time we ran a run an event, we had 100-120 people from all across the sector, client side, agency side. We had CEOs coming to really hear the voices of young people in the sector about what they were their lived experiences. And it was very apparent to us, that there was a lack of inclusivity and a lack of progression.

So when the Black Lives Matter hit last May, right at the time of peak of the COVID situation. And Adrian and I we took a very clear view on this and said, ‘How are we going to react’ and we just said, ‘we're not doing anything,’ because we've been doing something for the last four and a half years. And actually, we haven't really had a lot of traction. This is the moment in time we took the phrase ‘No turning back 2020’. And we agreed that 2020 would be the year for no turning back on diversity and inclusion in the marketing and communications and sports marketing sector. And the one piece of action we did was we've trademarked that phrase, ‘No turning back 2020.’ And then we created the product ‘No turning back 2020’. And actually, from January 4th we will be moving and migrating the whole of the campaign or the movement, as we call it to being known as ‘No turning back 2020’. We’ll keep the BAME 2020 name there as well, because we now come up top of Google search. We won't let go of our history and our past, but we feel it's now time to let go and move on from the acronym BAME. So now our job is we have to keep the pressure up on change. But that was the history of why it came into being. And it's very much a partnership between Adrian and myself. It's a non-commercial, Adrian and I have put 40% of our company profits for the last five years into the into the delivery of the BAME 2020 programme and f1 has put it put the same out of out of that 40% we've also supported the ‘Back to business ship’.

Now, to answer your question about the Business in the Community(BITC). I think it's really easy for people to sign up to things and do nothing. But I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of organisations that that have signed up and are really struggling with the what do we do and how do we do it. They know why they're doing it. Or they think they know why they're doing it, because it's the right thing to do. But the how and the what and the when is more difficult to achieve. There's no date by which anyone has to achieve anything. And it's very easy to put your signature to something. It's about action. So, ask me that question once the BITC asks people to measure what they're doing .

They had a two year celebration back in October during Black History Month. All of those speakers were from the sectors that have put money behind and real elbow grease behind trying to make change. So, there was the insurance industry, the accountancy sector, the banking sector and the legal sector. There were actually no big brands, no FMCG brands, no media brands. Professional services often lead in this area. And I think we need the rest to follow. But there's so much more that needs to be done. A lot of organisations really struggle to get their staff to even complete diversity and inclusion audits. Because people are very worried that if the information is going to be kept, however anonymous, it is against their name, but it's going to get in the way of their career progression.

And you know, the diversity inclusion forms that all of our candidates complete, we get a 95% success rate with people completing them, they're anonymous. We simply take the stats, not attached to anyone's name. And, that is how my recruitment business has built a portfolio of candidates, that is 20% non-white, in a sector that is probably only 9%, non-white. How have we done that? Now, you have to build trust, you have to you have to put time and effort and energy and one on one relationships and build one block on top of another. And it takes time, and I think people think they can make change happen so quickly. We get calls from organisations saying we need more diversity on our shortlist. We don't get anybody applying for our jobs. And like, yeah, but if you looked at your website? Have you spoken to the people that have left your organisation that that were from diverse backgrounds? Have you done exit interviews? Have you actually asked them what their lived experiences have been? Have you been taking feedback? Have they had, whatever your system is God parenting, mentors, reverse mentors? Have you actually listened and taken onboard the feedback? Because therein lies some of the some of the answers.

I think the fact that women can have a year's maternity leave now is brilliant. I'm very careful how I advise women. But I think two long outs if you've got a six year period where you're having a family as well. The fact is that when people have children, they are just coming into the peak, often of their performance career. If we liken it to an athlete or a sports person, they've normally been working since 23. And the average age, and I know this is different in different cultures for having, but if I just take the average across the UK at the moment. It is about 33 to have a first child, you've probably got 10 years work experience. Now, I can tell you in recruitment, that is the sweet spot, right? That is the sweet spot, it's associate director level in an agency, it is mid-level management in house, that is a sweet spot. You've had your training, you've had your first couple of jobs probably. And if you think about it from a male perspective, that is the time where they might be on 60,000. And the next job they'll suddenly take a jump up to 130-150.

And at the moment, most men in the UK do not, take the level of time out that mothers do. It's just not in our culture. We’re not Sweden. And so what you're doing is you're taking a finely tuned athlete out of the competition. Basically for a period of time, and this isn't just three months, this is a period of time. And my God, you've got to be determined, if you want your career to stay at the point where it was when you were winning competitions. I'd like to do some insight into women that do get to the top. How many kids they've got, how many parents they've still got a live, what the relationship is with their partner, how much domestic work the partner does, whether he or she works part time, full time, how they were brought up, what their attitude towards ….,. There's so much stuff that goes on, in order for a woman to still keep her career going, the support structure has got to be there. What you've got, is there's an inbuilt attrition rate where women are in the fast lane, and they decide to get into the middle lane and the slow lane, and some just don't come back at all. And at the same time you've got men that are you know, at the same stage, when women decide to have children 33, who will suddenly accelerate their career, right? So, there is a, there is a societal reason why there are not more women at the top which individually one can change. But when you meet a woman that has got to the top, it is not coincidence, it is not. It is not luck, it is choices that they made. I think there are plenty of women that think they want to run an advertising agency or a PR agency or they want to be the top comms director and they have kids and they change their mind. It’s just not the most important thing and their career was the most important thing and suddenly it's something in their life but it doesn't need to be the dominant thing in their life.

This is exactly what you said would happen. We need to make flexible and remote working mainstream. And if we could have waved a magic wand in 2013 and said, hey, let's create a situation where everybody has to work from home. So that men actually understand what happens when they go to work in the morning and the chaos of getting kids to school, and then home-schooling as well. The chaos of getting the meal ready. At least everyone's going to know what everyone's been doing all day. Working at home and have flexible working has become mainstream. Guess what? Productivity hasn't gone down! Mental health isn't great of course, because we're all feeling very claustrophobic at the moment. But where the pendulum swung right up one way and If you were asking me where I think it will come to rest, I think it'll come to rest on something like a 10-day office month. So, in a 20 day working month, I think that most people would choose to come in to their office to two days a week, to regroup with their teams. And I think the office will be used for doing very different things, but it will be used for brainstorming, creative thinking, hubbing, client meetings.

You’ve called your podcast, ‘The Elephant in the Room’. That was one of the modules on our program with our returners Because ‘The Elephant in The Room’ was not, can I do this job? Why do I want to do this job? What skills do I have to do for this job? ‘The Elephant in the Room’ was when do I tell them that I only want to come into the office for two days a week? And I want to do two days from home. It's a full-time job because all the part-time jobs are rubbish jobs that pay nothing. And I was on 70,000 when I left my great marketing role for X, Y, Z company or I was only even more than that. Now it doesn't matter. Because every job can be a flexible working job.

But, I think you need to be a successful marketer. You you've got to have the left brain and the right brain. It cannot just all be about creative thinking. It's got to be about measuring results. I know crisis comms has come into its own in the last year. And we had policy, shaping policy, I think that's going to be very important too. But in terms of working with the CEO and a board to really articulate accurately, engagingly to the stakeholders why an organization actually exists in the world beyond making money is going to be crucial to attracting staff. Absolutely crucial, because this next generation, they don't want to work for organizations that don't pay their tax. And I just would urge, that people that go into comms and marketing, they should all take basic financial management courses as well, to understand how to read a P&L. But I think that that all marketeers and comms people that have got a basic understanding of business finance and business management make much better professionals in their own expertise area.

This is interesting because ever since I started work, which was a very long time ago, now we've talked about the war for talent. It will never ever go away because everybody wants the best talent. I think there's always been this challenge of the relationship between the education system and work. And that will never go away because the two things are trying to achieve slightly different things. The education system is not there to get people jobs. It's there to educate our young, to make sure that they have a broad education and are fit to go into whatever line of profession they want to go to. We need to carry on building those relationship with the education sector. There needs to be more bridging, apprenticeship schemes that actually work.

For example in January, we're launching an outreach program through BAME 2020. So, our young ambassadors that came into state schools where there's a high percentage of free school meals and high percentage of people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and from a black, Asian minority ethnic background. To talk about their lived experiences in the marketing and comms career, to really galvanise those youngsters to say, yes, you could look at law, yes you can look at accountancy. Yes, you can go into robotics. Yes, you can go into pharma, but have you thought about marketing and coms? We're not very good as a sector at uniting and going out, joined up.

What we need as a marketing comms and media profession is to work together to collaborate, to get the best talent in to the sector. So I think that's the first thing, The second thing is really showcase talent that's doing well in your organization. It's the first thing we ask. When I go into an organization, I say, can you get me four examples of people that started in your company as school leavers and where they are now? And very rarely do I get a CEO that goes, yes, I can bring them in and introduce them to you. I know exactly who they are. It's like, hmm, yes hmm. So there's a piece of work I think in highlighting the success stories you've got in your own organization,

People don't come into marketing and comms to necessarily get rich. They come in because it's a creative industry and they think they're going to love their work. What they want to hear about is other people talking about why they got into the sector and why they love what they're doing. And yes, of course, they're going to ask questions about rewards and basic salaries and.

But, you know, the war for talent starts at entry level, but then it continues right the way through your alumni. And this is the other thing that professional services are very, very good. They have alumni networks, they have people in their organizations that manage the alumni network. Why do accountancy firms take on so many graduates. They know there's 10% will make partners. The rest will go off into industry and they will use that organization to do their accounts, the audits and tax and management...

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SHOWNOTES

My guest on the 8th episode of the #TheElephantintheRoom podcast is Barbara Phillips, Chair of the Race and Ethnicity Board(REEB). REEB was set up last year by the PRCA in response to Black Lives Matter(BLM) to address issues of racial inequality within our Industry. Her ambition is to ensure that black, asian and ethnic minority talent in the industry are able to flourish and thrive in their career. She is razor focused on REEB Terms of Reference having already delivered guidelines on the Ethnicity Pay Gap, and is working through the ‘to do’ list with military precision - aiming for maximum impact. BLM brought the ‘R’ word into our living rooms and back into the boardroom. Barbara is determined to keep it on the table for as long as it takes to achieve equity and equality.

In this episode we speak about her love for English language and writing, her role as the Chair of REEB and the priorities for REEB

The Ethnicity Pay Gap Report

The barriers to entry for people of colour in the industry

Visibility, representation and fixing the talent pipe line

The role of legislation and targets in achieving racial equality

Her views on BAME as a category

Highlights from the conversation

I refuse to just count out for the sake of it. Don't get me wrong, we're all brought up especially of a certain age, heavily on the manners and politeness and having respect for older people and authority. That's all lovely, but I'm not just going to do that. You have to earn it. I'm not just gonna let you trample on me because you're my line manager doesn't make you any better than me. With our upbringing, it's interesting because I only can say that now. At the time it was just everyone's the same go out and do what you need to do. But remember, everybody's the same. And that's literally all the advice I got. And that's pretty much I think, all you need to know, though. Irrespective what anyone says to you don't have to believe it. If somebody puts that label on you, you don't have to accept it. And I think there's a whole generation and maybe generations now that feel they have to accept it. And I think for my generation, I was one of the few people that didn't feel I had to accept it.

It's only ever gonna be a race. You know, I think it's not only race, because we've got past race, because we've said the R word. I think right now what we're experiencing is the people who subscribe to it. And in the US elections 74 million people voted for Donald Trump. They've had four years to see what he's about. And they still think, yep, that works for me. Let me tick his name. So I think The Elephant In The Room right now is the fact that people like race, they subscribe to all the white supremacy, it works for them. It's a status quo. And there are people probably secretly, who are quite happy to keep it going. I think that's The Elephant In The Room.

We wrote those terms of reference so everyone in REEB, we all joined together, and I love the way it's all kind of open. That's the way I like to be in an organisation and a group that everyone's voice is valid. My priority is working my way through that list. So I'm going to be pushing to make sure everything on my list is executed and done and delivered. And I think my biggest strength is that I don't need to be popular. I have no interest in being popular. Respect is great. You don't have to like me, because that's not what I'm here for.

My priority is working through that list and, and letting people on the board of the PRCA specifically, letting them know that I see them. I see the ones who are silent. I see the ones who have said nothing, but haven't said anything against us. But they haven't supported us either. This is not like diversity and inclusion where there's a broad range of things and you can kind of pick what you want to support.

The agencies, they need to stop being performative. if you're an agency now and it's all white, that's fine. Because you can still be an ally, you can still be supportive, and you can still have a non-toxic culture. But really, if you're in a London, there is no excuse for not having a diverse workforce because London is like the most diverse city in the UK, one of the most diverse in Europe. And this is what I've said forever, need to look at their culture. Because, you know, I don't want young people of colour to go into any more of those organisations that are so toxic and that damages them. And either they can't stay in communications, or they won't go back to another agency, or go and do something else entirely, because it's so damaging. So I think they need to look at their culture. And don't tell me agencies that you don't know what good culture looks like, don't tell me that you don't know, what is inclusive culture. Look, there's enough material out there, the leaders know, so they just haven't chosen to do it. So I think they need to make their agencies and environment more inclusive, more inviting, make it psychologically safe for everyone. And the talent will come.

I think it's different this time, because we have a lot more white people saying, this is not acceptable. I mean, black people and Asian people and everybody has been saying it's not acceptable forever. But but there weren't enough of them either in power, or influential enough. What's different this time than any other time is that 1) It's global, and 2) there are enough numbers of people who aren't black and asian who want ethnic diversity. And then if you marry that, with what's physically happening in populations of the world, this is what organisations and big agencies and big firms are realising now, when they look to their five year projections, who's going to be available for talent who are going to be their customers, they're not going to be all white. And if they don’t make a pivot right now. They don't have anyone to sell to and there'll be no one to work in their organisations. And I think that's only a realisation this year.

I've said torch BAME and that's been my position forever, just torch the whole thing and go back to identifying people as they are. I think what probably needs to happen because when we were working with our ethnicity pay gap expert, we looked at specifications a lot of them do come from the government. And I think it's time the government did another survey and another classification of how people identify because I think it's a lot more complex. And I think you should finally say, because if you use BAME that means but we can't talk about asian community on its own, It offends me because it oversimplifies. Because all BAME says is ‘other’. White is the centre of the universe. And everything else is just, you know, revolving around it. And it's other. So I think that even if it takes you three seconds more to write out the word black and asian, I think you need to write it out because we're talking about different experiences.

I think, going back to my childhood on this, you know everybody's equal. And I hate it when people aren't treated fairly. That's from an old person in the street that somebody I don't know, you know, I just can't bear it. Its in my in my blood I can't bear, it's probably why I am a magistrate I can't bear people being treated unfairly based on nothing more than, either someone's prejudice, or someone's stereotyping. It just doesn't sit well with me if there's evidence, and it's clear evidence, fine. That’s a different story. What drives me is that we can, as human beings we can just do so much better. You know, I'm not saying feed the world Kumbaya, world peace. I'm just saying we can do so much better and each as an individual in your environment, you know, there's something you can do every day, to make someone's environment, not necessarily yours, someone's environment a little bit better.

Follow Barbara on

https://twitter.com/barphi1

https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-phillips-mprca-73b1333/

Important links

https://ethicalmarketingnews.com/prca-reeb-publishes-new-ethnicity-pay-gap-guide

https://www.prweek.com/article/1690107/prca-launches-race-ethnicity-equity-board-makes-diversity-pledge

https://www.vuelio.com/uk/blog/spotlight-on-barbara-phillips-chair-for-the-prca-race-and-ethnicity-equity-board/

https://womeninpr.org.uk/bhm-barbara-phillips/

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She is a doyenne of Indian feminism, a poet, author, feminist and development activist. She is also the South Asia co-ordinator for ‘One Billion Rising’. So, I was thrilled and honoured to have Kamla Bhasin as a guest on my podcast. The most important takeaway for me was the power of alliances local and global to address inequalities in society/the world. Also, that it takes more than legislation to bring about social change.

In this episode we speak about her journey to conscious feminism

The interconnectedness between the feminist and development agenda: women’s rights, human rights and rights of Dalits

The Indian feminist struggle, challenging the idea that the Indian feminist movement found its inspiration in the West

Whether caste=race and if violence against women should be framed within the caste lens, the enablers of caste inequities in society

Patriarchy in culture and society and her views on capitalism as an agent of patriarchy

One Billion Rising - a powerful global campaign

Intersectionality and feminism that transcends borders, class and other binary social divisions

Subscribe to the show on any of your favourite platforms iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts.

Memorable Quotes

In that work. I understood all the inequalities. There were caste inequality, class inequality, education inequality and of course, man, woman, girl, boy inequality. The wells, which had water were always the wells on which so-called lower caste people were not allowed to step. If government scheme came, it would all go to the Sarpanches relations etc, and never do the Dalit group. And then I realised that amongst the poor. Women were poorer. Among the Dalits women were more Dalits, among the Adivasis they were more Adivasi. Slowly I became a conscious feminist.

So for me, it was not either be feminist or a development activist, because I think these are all interrelated things. And human rights are related to women's rights, they are related to Dalit rights. First of all I really don't think that there is any Indian feminist story or western feminist story. Which West? The black West or the white West, the minority West, or the majority west. Similarly in India, which feminists? So most of all, I want to say that feminism is not one, there are feminisms. And in the larger women's movement, there are many, many strands. So, for example, in so-called Western feminism, the black women told the white women that your feminism is only about white women. We are not included and they were not included because feminism was only about gender inequality for the white. But the black woman wanted gender and race.

Similarly in India. The Dalit women, they told us that why do you never talk of caste, why are you only talking of patriarchy? So, there are many kinds of feminists. Now feminists, who for me are women and men. Feminism for me is not biological. So women can be patriarchal and feminist. Similarly, men are patriarchal and some men are also feminist and have always been. So feminism is a response to patriarchy. We have taken our constitution seriously. And the constitution says men and women are equal, all the caste are equal, all religions are equal. I believe whatever I'm doing for the last 50 years now is to implement my constitution, to implement the universal declaration of human rights. Nothing else!

But, has my constitution given me equal rights, they have just written about them. We may not have a history of these feminist struggles because of colonialism, because of white supremacy and because of brahamanical supremacy. We only have history of some feminists and some struggles. And then we start feminism from last time, last century or century before that from America and say feminism started there.

What is violence against women? Man, who's more powerful doing violence. If with that patriarchal violence, you have the power of the boss also, so he is doubly powerful. Violence against women is in homes like yours and in homes like mine. I personally sometimes think that middle class women face more violence, but they don't talk about it. Adivasi women are much freer, she'll talk about it, she leaves because she is economically more independent than middle-class housewives. So yes, many times violence against women is related to caste. These are power systems and when two power hierarchies come together, it becomes easier to do violence. Caste and race are the same. Caste activists, Dalit activists have always said that it is like race, but it is not exactly race because race is based on colour. This is based on a Hindu system of tasks, but they're both by birth. They're both nurtured in the same way.

Our constitution said, India will not follow a caste system. It should have disappeared, We are not just a Hindu society, but Hindu caste system has made an entry into Indian Christianity, into Indian Islam. It has made an entry even into Sikhism which was anti-caste because all these religions who became Sikh and Christian and Muslim? Mainly lower caste Hindus who were not finding respect in their own religion. But, people never forgot, people didn't forget they still remember after hundreds of years. So this is what I feel and I feel very, very sad that these hierarchies are continuing, but I'm not surprised.

Manu has been talked by Periyar and has been talked Baba Saheb Ambedkar. I mean the anti-caste movement in the South has talked about all this. As you said, patriarchy is in every society. And I think all religions are patriarchal. All of them are male created, male dominated, male interpreted, male imposed religions, each one of them. And definitely Manusmriti was written at the time to strengthen patriarchy and to strengthen the caste system.

So obviously, I think to bring Manu into running the present society is pathetic. And so both sides are bringing the scriptures? It's not just the critics of Manu who are bringing the scriptures. I mean, maybe not be surprised, but in the Rajasthan high court, there is a statue of Manu there and people the Anti caste people have been saying for decades, please remove it. You know, like, and in Europe now they're taking down the statues of racist leaders. I don't look at India as a Hindu country because India is a multi-religious country. Everybody in India does not follow one Manu. I mean the Sikhs don’t and the Christians don't but they follow their own Manu. Each religion has its own Manu. I find all the religions are problematic and we need to finally make up our mind someday as to our constitution. Or are we with these things which were said 4,000 years ago.

I'm not a philosopher but has capitalism worked. You said socialism hasn't worked, communism hasn't worked, but do you think capitalism has worked and for whom has it worked and has it worked for Africa? Has it worked for 70% of Indians? Has it worked for the black Americans? And has it worked for planet earth? Has it worked for mother nature? I mean, USA, should have been that society where inequality should have disappeared, where there should have been help for all, but look at COVID-19 in the USA and the tiny country Cuba next to the USA, sending help out all over the world and sending doctors all over the world. And to say You know, communism hasn't worked socialism, hasn't worked. And again, look at Scandinavia. So the image one has is that societies should not be greed based. Dog eat dog kind of competition-based, individualism based, you know social welfare, welfare economics, those kinds of things.

I mean, I think a Scandinavia has shown us the way we can go that way. And I think the recent catastrophes in the USA of all kinds, including during COVID-19 show us, and it is good to see that in a country like the UK people are now perhaps understanding the importance of national health services. Even the conservative sitting there. And so that, just the kind of thing we have in mind, but in fact, looking at the climate change scenario, the old socialism. Which did not talk of climate, which did not talk of a lot. And which taught human beings went on top of nature. I think today, ecologism, ecology, and socialism and welfare, etc and feminism and Anti-caste anti-race kind of things. All of these isms need to come together, make alliances and think of an alternative society. And I think theoretically, all this is happening. I mean, people have been talking about it for a long time. What needs to be done? People who are greed based, people mean even doing COVID-19 their profits have soared. All these companies have made money. So I really don't think capitalism has worked for the majority and the marriage. That's a horrible marriage between capitalism and patriarchy.

1 billion rising started in 2012. Thought of originally by one woman called Eve Ensler, you might've heard of her play the ‘Vagina Monologues’. And in 2012 world health organisation came up with a report saying in the world globally, out of every three women, one woman faces violence at some time in her life, out of three women, one woman, which means out of a population of 7 billion people, three-and-a-half billion are women, out of that, one-third more than a billion women and girls face. Is there a war bigger than this? Where does this war take place most of all? Within, the family particularly in India. Where is this violence maximum? Where do we kill daughters in the womb? Where do we kill them for dowry? Where do we starve them? Within the family! So when Eve Ensler called me up and said, Kamala let's start something called 1 Billion Rising. And I said, yes. We just had to contact our feminist friends all over the world and we had feminist friends. I knew you, you knew her, you knew him. And within about nine months, we managed to do 1 billion, rising into 107 countries. And what was the slogan, “strike meaning hit out at violence, “dance and rise rise like the waves of the ocean. So people said, why dance? Especially in South Asia. And we said dance because you are not rising as victims anymore. We are rising as survivors. We will not only dance, we will sing and we will shout slogans.

I think you can see how this is becoming a reality. For example, we wanted women to be together and then the Dalit woman says, listen, I'm not just a woman and you are not just a woman. You are an upper caste woman. And I'm a lower caste. And if I was working with poor women, they said, you are not just a woman who had an upper class woman. And I'm a working class woman. So if you want women to be together, then you have to think of our struggles. So if you are Sudha, look at Indian feminism, right from the beginning with whom we were working, we were working with basti women, with poor women. In any case middle-class, women will not allow us into their homes. They're not willing to give up patriarchy because patriarchy is bringing their class status to them. An upper middle class woman will not leave her husband, because with her husband her car will go and her fancy house will go. And status and kitty parties, jewellery will go.

So in India, we have always worked with women from the working classes, working caste and made alliances with them with indigenous women. So I feel for example, in the last 10 years with LGBTQ people to some extent these alliances are coming up. But sometimes they also divide us because today everybody wants their rights. I have a severely handicapped son, he's 40 years old. And as a 74 year old mother, I can't look after him alone. And because of my class, I have people looking after him. So am I a feminist, even with those people who look after my son, do I take care of them? So I think we need these alliances if we want our movements to be bigger. Identity politics divides us. But can I tell a Dalit women don’t talk of caste, can the white women in the US tell the black women don't talk of race. So I see that intersectionality is absolutely essential and these alliances have to be made. But I feel that ultimately it is poor vs rich. And I think if the poor have to unite, alliances are necessary. If the women have to get anywhere alliances are necessary.

First of all what is that definition of activism? I mean, from your question, I assume, you think only people who want to win rights for all in development for all are activists, but we are not the only activists. I think capitalism today has more activists than human rights activists. Mr. Trump has his activists, the right wing party has activists, the labour party has its activists. So what is activism? So I think activism is very active, but they are active for their own goals. People like me want the constitution of India to be implemented. Only human rights activism might seem at the periphery because our governments are becoming anti-human rights, because of the power of the people who control the digital world and the data. Who's controlling that. I know that young people, at least in India, haven't given up activism. And if young people like Greta Thunberg in Sweden can become an activist and Malala from Pakistan, the youngest, Nobel Peace Laureate. I will not insult the young people of today, but the thing is that this greed based neoliberalism has proven to be very, very powerful.

Biography Kamla Bhasin

Kamla Bhasin is a social scientist, author, poet, development feminist, and activist. She has worked on several subjects like gender equality, education, poverty alleviation, human rights and peace in South Asia since 1970. She is also part of SANGAT, a South Asian Feminist network and an active member of JAGORI, a women’s resource and training centre. In 1979, she began with the Food and Agricultural Organisation for their Freedom from Hunger campaign in New Delhi and worked for empowerment of rural and urban poor. She has written extensively on patriarchy and gender. Her published works include Laughing Matters, Exploring Masculinity, Borders & Boundaries: Women in India’s Partition, What Is Patriarchy and Feminism and its Relevance in South Asia. In her literary work and her activism, she envisions a feminist movement that transcends class, borders, and other social and political divisions.

Important Links

https://www.onebillionrising.org/about/campaign/one-billion-rising/

https://indianexpress.com/article/parenting/learning/gender-no-two-boys-girls-are-alike-author-kamla-bhasin-satrangi-ladke-and-satrangi-ladkiyan-6420312/

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/07/01/about-46-crore-females-missing-in-india-due-to-son-preference-unfpa-report.html

https://feminisminindia.com/2020/09/17/faith-religion-patriarchy-feminism-webinar-sangat/

https://feminisminindia.com/2020/10/01/kamla-bhasin-sangat-radical-love/

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nashik/democracy-in-india-political-only-not-social-kamla-bhasin/articleshow/72892803.cms

https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/in-focus/article/we-not-only-need-women-candidates-we-feminist-women-in-the-parliament-in-conversation-with-kamla-bhasin/406195

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My guest on today’s show is a dear friend Michelle Hakata. Michelle is an independent public health communications expert working in sub-Saharan Africa and the UK. She is passionate about public health issues relating to sexual and reproductive health rights of women. Michelle has significant experience of working with non-governmental organisations, diaspora groups and the private sector on development, analysing trade and investment flows to Africa and remittances. In this episode Michelle reminisces about her journey as a journalist in Zimbabwe, her work with British Foreign Office, the Commonwealth Business Council and finding her niche as an expert in public health communications

Being guilty of pretending there was no elephant in the room and that it was ok to not be paid what she was worth or to be passed over for promotion

How COVID-19 had brought conversations of race into the living room. The impact of subtle and considered racism as opposed to overt racism.

What individuals and organisations can do to be more inclusive

Her work with Citizen’s Health Watch on quality and access to quality healthcare for maternal and reproductive rights of women in Sub-Saharan Africa

Disruption of traditional business models in a post covid world and the role of purpose within business

The role of technology in outreach with marginalised communities and the opportunity for innovation

The importance of Ethics in communications

Memorable quotes from the Podcast:

It has been heart-warming to see so many people standing shoulder to shoulder on matters of racial inequality. The issues under the spotlight are issues that have been known for a long time. There have been studies/surveys all across the world about racial inequality. Often those who have spoken out about these issues have been vilified, and they’ve been punished and not been given work. So it's not it wasn't a sexy subject to talk about inequality. Many before Black Lives Matter movement quietly kept their heads down. And I must plead guilty myself, we quietly kept our heads down, pretended there was no elephant in the room, pretended we were okay to be paid what we are not worth. And many people pretended it was okay to be passed over for promotion, past of recognition. So this thing really did bring a seismic change.

I mean, the movement brought issues of racial inequality into our living rooms, issues of racially constructed barriers, issues of institutional racism, for the first time, this was conversation that you could have around the coffee table. Yet, these are issues that people of colour have been living with all their lives, issues that people pretended not to see. I mean, organisations like the police have been called out about racism. But there are many huge corporates, hugely influential non-profit organisations who do not have diversity. Their employment practices will tell you this. The composition of their board of directors will tell you this. How many company's since Black Lives Matter movement looked at their employment records, look at their employment records looked at their diversity, I can assure you that not many have done so. Will the Black Lives Matter movement make a difference? In the short term, maybe yes, maybe one or two people of colour will be appointed to key positions. But in the long term, these companies and these institutions will go back to their usual settings. You know, sadly, there are many companies, many people are comfortable with racism, who are comfortable with the lack of diversity. So this has been a simmering problem that has ravaged many communities you know, and many people have failed to follow their dreams because of racism because of racial inequalities. So many people have failed to fulfil the potential because of racism Sudha. What makes me sad Sudha is what lies beneath. You know, there's a kind of overt racism that we see the inequality that is clear for us to see. But what worries me is the racism that is carefully disguised. Do you know the kind that is subtle, the kind that is carefully considered, and that's a more dangerous type of racism, because it's ongoing in the boardrooms, it's ongoing in the offices, that is the kind of racism that really I find that I'm even more uncomfortable with.

I work as a consultant, my work mostly is in Africa. And here in the UK. I found from actually going back through my records. And going back through my contracts, I found that largely I was paid way less than other consultants that are white. I found that if I get employed, or get a job from the UK, I'd be employed as a UK based consultant with local knowledge of whatever African country that I'm going to. But again, I found that that I was paid way less. I would say that that was racist. I've been working in this space for the past 25 years, I know I'm hugely qualified for this kind of work. I work with people that are much younger than me with maybe less than five years’ experience. And maybe with less education than me, but they get paid infinitely more, than I get paid. Now, you may want to ask, oh Michelle, why do you do this work? I do this because first of all I need to eat, but secondly, it's kind of the kind of work I want to do, it is the kind of work I enjoy. And it's kind of work where I think I can make a difference. You know, for the kind of work that I do, you get paid more when you lead a project. Now, the person more likely to lead a project that I'm working on is likely to be at least 10 years younger than me, and with maybe three, five years experience at the most. So, I choose either not to have any work, or I can choose just to continue working with the same people. So that's what my experience has been of racism at a personal level, you know, just not getting recognition for my work and knowing full well, that I have done maybe 90% of the work.

Well, what drives me is a passion for people really, I'm passionate about,, making lives better for people that have less than I have. I mean, like, for instance, I've had to work remotely now during this whole COVID crisis. But some of my work involved going into communities going, field work. And we've had to stop all of that. So for me, the struggle really has been, how will these communities get reached in the short term, in the medium and long term as well. So you know, so it's been really hard for me to fulfil my purpose. Over this COVID period, not being able to assist those communities that may have been affected, not be able to see them has been a real struggle. You know, in my country, and in Africa, really, mobile telephony has really grown in the last couple of years. So it's a great thing. But data costs are so high in my country, people that are in the communities that I work with, cannot afford to even have data. So how do we monitor service delivery in those communities? And how do we go out to those communities and work. So we have to really rethink, reimagine, how we're going to do this. There's a lot of work that needs to go into how is this going to happen? How are we going to bring these people along with us? So really, in terms of purpose, I really feel a bit dispirited.

Do you know many business models were disrupted by COVID. People were bumbling along with all sorts of fantastic business models, and then COVID came, and it's all changed. I see businesses wanting to be more purpose driven. The former Chairman CEO of, EY Mark Weinberger said businesses today are finding that doing good also means doing well. Increasingly shareholders are concerned about climate change, hey want more than just money. So I think going forward, we'll see organisations increasingly asking themselves, why are we here? That's the kind of world I would like to see. I know it sounds almost nearly impossible, but I think it is possible to do good and make money. And I think increasingly people are going to call out businesses that you know, are not environmentally friendly businesses that destroy ecosystems. Going forward, I think, we'll see a difference in the world. Well that's what I'm hoping for.

I'm all zoomed out, to be honest. From a point of delivery I’ve been unable to deliver. From my point of seeing the work that we're doing, and seeing the impact of that work, that's been difficult. And as long as internet is seen as a luxury in Africa, it will continue to be a struggle to bring people into the modern world. So I can have meetings, I can do deliver projects, I can email project, I can share documents, it's all been very well, it's all been very good, actually. But not being able to see the communities and to be in the communities has been very difficult. And I don't know how we are going to implement some of the projects, we are hoping that there's going to be a vac-cine. But we have to reimagine things differently, and also innovate around how we communicate without necessarily going to those communities. I think this COVID is our chance to actually look at ways and means communicating and reaching communities that we cannot visit physically. I think really remote communication is the future. And, we've got technology. This is a chance to innovate as far as I'm concerned.

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